# Loosing cats due to mono?



## jjshbetz11

Is it possible? Only thing that changed in my setup from last year is a new baitcaster and spooled it with 30lb mono. Last year I only used braid and barely lost any fish. Could the stretch have that much affect? Lost 3 tonight, they felt heavy too. Going back to power pro ASAP put off swapping to braid a little too long think it's biting me in the behind now

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## Mr. A

IMHO the mono is the deal breaker. Mono has loads of give compared to braid, so when you set the hook the hook essentially gets pulled into the fish's lip not yanked in as with braid...

What types of hooks are you using? Only ask because I have quit using circle octopus hooks and went back to circle hooks. One you can set a hook with the rod and the other the fish will set for you by pulling... Just a thought.

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## jjshbetz11

8 gama octopus, Bait clicker on


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## JimmyMac

Sure mono may not offer as solid a hookset as braid, but I would look elsewhere for the problem if it happened 3 times in one night. Just because something better comes along doesn't mean the previous thing stops working. 

If you can afford power pro and like using it, no reason not to.


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## JimmyMac

There are a number of things that can cause a bad hookset also. I know one year I was missing a load of fish hooking my bait in a bad place, where the bait was able to turn and block the point of the hook, I finally caught on after reeling in baits that were double hooked. Another thing using baitfish with scales, especially shad, is to make sure no scales end up on your point upon casting out. Then the most obvious one of all, making sure you have no slack on the hookset.


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## Desode

What size bait were you using ? and what size hook ?

Was anything different in that area ?


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## M.Magis

There's a 0% chance that the line is the issue. Unless you're casting 100+ yards, the stretch in mono is negligible when setting the hook.


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## Mr. A

If I'm not mistaken the original problem was the guy missed 3 fish in one night. The only thing he'd changed was from braid to mono with everything else the same. How can the problem be anything else but the line?

We don't know if braid would have made a difference but if that's what changed...... 

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## M.Magis

I wish I could find something to blame evey time I lose a fish, but fact is it's usually just "one of those things". Anyone care to guess how many billions upon billions of fish have been caught with mono? Braid has its place, but to suggest mono can't catch fish as well is just plain wrong. As far as catfishing goes, there's very little difference between the two until you get into more specialized types of fishing, such as deep/vertical or long lines.


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## mastercatman

Hook size is an often overlooked part of such a problem. I had it at one time myself. I use 5/0 most often now unless I'm using very large baits. 
Hook sharpness could be another issue worth checking out.
I have been dealing with gar a lot lately which results in screaming runs and no hookups!


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## Bass-Chad

Did they break off at the knot? Maybe it was the knot instead of the line. No matter what line I am using I tie a double palomar and very rarely break off fish on the hook set. Check the line itself, maybe it is old line. I use mono and braid for catfish it just depends on the area I am fishing. Ponds/rivers is mono, inland lakes known for big cats I use braid.


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## bkr43050

When you say "lost 3 fish" I am assuming you are referring to them being hooked and then becoming unbuttoned? If so I tend to agree with M.Magis in that the mono is most likely not in any way the cause. In fact I personally think that mono is better for catfishing because it does stretch some. That stretch cushions the effect of a fish's effort to shake loose. When a fish thrashes or head-shakes with braid there is a significant change in the pressure exerted throughout that action. On mono the pressure stays relatively constant. If they came unhooked then they didn't get the hook buried in the first place. I would consider the other options that were suggested, hook size/design, hook location in bait, hook sharpness, etc. If it is broken line then it could either be bad/old mono. 30# braid should be able to turn an awfully big big in its tracks. Or it could just have not been your night to catch fish. After all it is still called fishing and not catching for a reason.


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## Bluegill_Guru

To be honest, this is all just conjecture, as a missed fish can be because of a myriad of reasons, including equipment and angler failure.

I hate mono with a passion, and would never not use braid, no matter what the circumstance, but that doesn't mean that mono is ineffective, it just means that it totally blows for me. For some people mono is more forgiving in hook sets, and for others it is not.

It is akin to an extremely accurate sniper rifle in the hands of a man with 40/80 vision. But give that man an AA-12 shotgun and he is dropping things left and right.


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## jjshbetz11

Well I just spooled up with power pro so this little experiment will get tested tonight, going out here in a little bit


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## jjshbetz11

And I think it was the mono, as the channels in my spot are striking the hook pretty vicious last night . Gonna finish this beer and my gal is gonna drive us there(safety first children)


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## jjshbetz11

No info to give last night had other plans for me. Going out tonight guaranteed so will post results


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## jjshbetz11

Went two for two with the braid, end of experiment 


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## OhioCatter

I use both mono and Braided line. I have no problems with either except when fishing in rocky areas (braided). Then mono gets the nod. Don't give up on mono, even though you went 2 for 2 with braid and lost 3 with mono. Next time you spool up do one mono and 1 braided. Give them both a chance and you will see mono is not the root cause.


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## Bluegill_Guru

OhioCatter said:


> ...you will see mono is not the root cause.


It could be the root cause for him though. Some people, myself included, are behind the eight ball when using mono. 

Nothing against mono, but it doesn't work for everyone; just like the many old schoolers that wont touch braid....because it doesn't work for them.


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## katfish

> just like the many old schoolers that wont touch braid....because it doesn't work for them.


Old school is a releative term
Braided fishing lines predate mono by 50 years.

The reason there are so many tackle choices is because
one type of line/rigging options doesn't cover all styles of fishing
situations.

Personally I run dacron braid which is ancient technology
but it fits our techniques. It is the best available option
for our type of fishing. I do not recommend it for most folks 
because of it's many and chronic problems.










I posted this pic for the "old schoolers" that won't touch braid  

Also the type of mono used makes a little difference. Mono lines
seem to run from 12-20% stretch depending on the hardners 
used to make the line. Softer lines like XL have more stretch 
than harder lines like XT.

Normally a sunken line is draped across bottom, possibly over 
rocks or brush, and has a bit of slack in it. A mono line casted 
50 feet may have up to 10 feet of stretch before the full power
of your hook is delivered. If you have a fish swimming sideways
or toward you, you must add this into the amount of line you 
must retrieve on a hook set.

Many of these factors would still apply when using braid. With a 
7 foot rod you will probably only get 10 feet of line taken up on
a wide hookset.

With my big baits I will often (this time of year) have channel 
cats grab flathead baits sideways and swim away. I occasionally 
hook them on the outside of the mouth (where the hook was 
when I set). I normally know a channel cat run from a flathead 
run and I live with the fact that the aggressive prespawn channel 
are going to take some of my baits.

I also know that flathead are going to completely engulf a bait 
and clamp down to prevent it from escaping their mouth/stomach.
I have seen some guys reel a flathead several yards before thinking
they forgot to set the hook.

There are tons of reasons why we miss fish and although it is 
frustrating we have to learn to adapt or get over it or we might 
as well be limblining


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## bkr43050

Well I went out catfishing Saturday night and had both mono and braid setups in the water. We had six line and 4 were braid to the weight and swivel and then about a 30" mono leader. The mono rigs were about the same size leader but all was mono. We didn't have a ton of action. We only caught 6 fish and that was the only runs we had so we went 6 for 6. I won't say the I would not have caught them with all braid or some other setups but this setup worked for me. I was using 2/0 Kahle hooks on most and I think we got one fish on an octopus (not sure of size on that one). All fish were hooked perfectly in the mouth. I was fishing with baitcaster reels on clicker. We had no hard hookset. We waited for them to load up the pressure on the line and then raised the rod to create solid pressure. What we were doing was certainly working for the fish we were encountering that night. Who knows? Maybe the next trip out we will lose more fish than we catch. It happens that way at times.

I am not a fan of the braid setups myself for catfishing but 4 of the rods that I was using were my trolling setups which double up rather nicely for that purpose. I prefer to have a bit of stretch in between me and the fish when they have some strong fight. That is why I still used the mono leader. I would have even gone flourocarbon but I didn't have it with me. I am not a regular catfisherman so I cannot justify investing in completely separate setups. Obviously the braids work and Robby has the pictures to prove it.


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## jjshbetz11

Kahle hooks will be my next test. Think the gamas octopus hooks from Wally world are junk. The point of the hook doesn't even bend inward like other gamas or eagle claws do. I'm just tired of seeing a heavy action poll Damm near hit the ground off of the hit of the fish just to reel in nothing. I'm lovin cat fishing and gonna perteque my setup for maximum success. I don't sit on the shore for hours for nothing


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## jjshbetz11

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## golive

Gama Octopus hooks and Gama Octopus Circles are different types of hooks. Only the circles have the inward point on them. I also use mono as a leader and braid for mainline. 25# Big Game for leader and 50 & 65 # Spiderwire for mainline. So if I get snagged I lose a hook, instead of hook, swivel, sinker, beads, and float. I can put more line on with braid as its only = to 17# dia mono, so if I lose some line I still have plenty on the reel. Just my 2 cents. Golive


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## bkr43050

I read a short link online describing the difference between the circle and the Kahle hooks and it suggested that Kahle hooks tend to hook fish deeper than circles due to the wider gap. The fish I caught the other night all but one had the top of the hook outside the mouth. The other fish had the hook completely in the mouth but I was still able to turn the hook over in the corner of its jaw to remove it from the back of the jaw. None we what I would call deep-hooked. I think the concept between using both are the same in that you don't set the hook hard on them. They do most of that work themselves.


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## Desode

bkr43050 said:


> I read a short link online describing the difference between the circle and the Kahle hooks and it suggested that Kahle hooks tend to hook fish deeper than circles due to the wider gap. The fish I caught the other night all but one had the top of the hook outside the mouth. The other fish had the hook completely in the mouth but I was still able to turn the hook over in the corner of its jaw to remove it from the back of the jaw. None we what I would call deep-hooked. I think the concept between using both are the same in that you don't set the hook hard on them. They do most of that work themselves.


I have yet to have a Kahle Hook a fish deep. I have been using them for 15 years.
The other strange thing is just about ever place you look on the web there is all these articles about how bad kahle hooks are,,, and how they gut hook fish.... That is a Load of Crap ! I Honestly think all these articles are paid for to get people to buy circle hooks !
A Kahle works pretty much just like a circle, But you can also set the hook aggressively. Now keep in mind that not all Kahles are Offset.. And if you like to set the hook aggressively, you want a offset Kahle. One year I bought a huge lot of Kahles for the season and I never paid attention that they weren't offset. Needless to say I missed some fish before i figured out what was going on.. 
I personally tried Circles for one year, and they weren't for me.
The reason being is that at times I fish from a boat and from shore, and I also catch a lot of flatheads during the day. 
In my experience a circle is worthless if you are in a situation where the fish doesn't run, because you will just pull the hook right out. Lots of times on the boat , I'm dropping the bait right on a fish sitting in cover and they will just suck up the bait and sit there in the cover. A Kahle lets me set the hook on those fish, and if the fish runs, it gets them just like a circle, always in the corner of the mouth.

The Most important thing is to match hook size with bait size while having the bait hooked right,, if you don't do that with any hook you will miss fish. 
I personally use Kahles from 7/0 to 10/0 depending on the bait size. 

Now, Team Catfish has some Double Action catfish circle hooks,, and they work pretty well,,However Pricey. 
You can set the hook with these by sweeping the rod,, but you don't want to use a aggressive hook set. 
As far as I know a Kahle is the only hook that gives me the best of both worlds.


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## katfish

The reason the circle hooks catch fish in the mouth
is that the inside point does not dig in until the eye
is past the edge of the mouth. The offset eye turns 
the point into the fish. You must have tension on the 
line at that point.

This is why a steady pull "sets" a circle hook.











A kahle hook is wide gapped so that a smaller hook size can
accomodate a larger bait. Some of the newer larger sized 
Kahles have outsized wire for those who prefer showing of 
tackle to catching fish.

Kahles do not have inside facing points so catmen can decide 
when to set the hook. Baits almost always start out in a flatheads
stomach after they inhale a bait.

If you choose a kahle hook with an offset eye they will increase 
your hookups in the corner of flatheads mouth.

My advice is to fish circles with reels locked in in current areas 
and use kahles in non current areas.


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## jjshbetz11

Have yet to try my kahle hooks, I don't want the fish to swallow the hook, would rather return the fish to the water unharmed. Hopefullyake it out tomorrow night.


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## Desode

Here is a tip that a Old friend of mine told be back when I first got into flathead fishing.

Most anglers don't really know this but Flatheads have two sets of PADS or teeth (not counting the ones on their lips). One set is on the roof of their mouth and one on the bottom. They are located right in front of their stomach.

When a Flathead engulfs the bait,, they suck the bait to the back of their throats, then clamp down with these pads. Their jaws are still wide open, but these pads in the back are holding the bait tightly,trying to kill it. 

A Lot of people miss fish because they are setting the hook early,thinking the mouth is closed when its not. 
If you just let the rod load up far enough, the bait fish will start to slip from those pads. 
When the Flathead feels this, they will clamp their mouth closed, and give a head shake to finally kill the bait fish and prevent its escape.

So what I do is this,,When the clicker goes off, I engage the reel and wait. I let the fish load-up on the rod. It will most of the time be bent over . At the last moment, when I find myself thinking I gotta set the hook or they are going to feel me and spit it out,,, I wait a second or two longer. and when I will feel the flat shake their head,,,, Bam ! I set it. 
I also try to never let a fish run more than a foot or two if I'm near the rod.

That is something that really helped me when I learned it.


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## M.Magis

Desode said:


> Most anglers don't really know this but Flatheads have two sets of PADS or teeth (not counting the ones on their lips). One set is on the roof of their mouth and one on the bottom. They are located right in front of their stomach.
> 
> When a Flathead engulfs the bait,, they suck the bait to the back of their throats, then clamp down with these pads. Their jaws are still wide open, but these pads in the back are holding the bait tightly,trying to kill it.
> 
> .


Your friend was very much mistaken. That is not true.


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## Desode

M.Magis said:


> Your friend was very much mistaken. That is not true.


To each their own thoughts , I learned it from a fishery biologist that did Flathead research for the government and a host of different states,He also radio tagged flatheads for 12 yrs, But I won't argue about it , Any one that claims they know all about anything is a Idiot, So I will of course take your wisdom on the matter. What don't you agree with ? 
I will add that he said the pads are on fish 20 pds and up.


Best wishes, Desode


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## M.Magis

No one is arguing, no need to get upset. Perhaps our terminology isn't matching. There&#8217;s not a set of teeth back toward the throat. Large flatheads engulf the bait, and occasionally one will be hooked in the stomach. With any fish over 15-20 pounds, it&#8217;s simple to reach down in and remove the hook gently. I&#8217;ve been elbow deep more times than I can remember, and the only tooth pads are the lips. The throat does cinch up, but the texture is nothing like the lips. Whether or not a flathead leaves it&#8217;s mouth open after eating or not, I can&#8217;t say. I doubt it&#8217;s any sort of hard and fast rule, as there aren&#8217;t many of those when it comes to wildlife habits.

I re-read it a couple times, and I think it is our terminology that doesn&#8217;t match. There are rough patches back there, I just never thought of them as tooth patches. I&#8217;m still not convinced that a flathead leaves his mouth open. In order to expel the water, it has to close.


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## ducky152000

I have always called them crusher plates, they are just like a flathead jaw, they are very hard and have sandpaper like teeth, its hard to believe a flathead ever opens his mouth after engulfing a bait, but i cannot verify that because i have never seen a flathead take a bait with my own eyes.


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## Desode

ducky152000 said:


> I have always called them crusher plates, they are just like a flathead jaw, they are very hard and have sandpaper like teeth, its hard to believe a flathead ever opens his mouth after engulfing a bait, but i cannot verify that because i have never seen a flathead take a bait with my own eyes.


That's a better description of them "Crusher plates !

I have seen some big ones eat in Tanks at a couple of different places and when they suck the bait in it's kind of closed for a second and then half open for a bit once they get the bait in those Back pads. 


@M.Magis I wasn't mad in any way  My comment about only idiots know everything was Aimed at myself,, Meaning, I don't and Never will claim to know everything about anything. I'm a musician by profession and that has taught me that No Matter how good you get at something, you can never know everything about something, especially with skill oriented things.

Some newcomers to flathead fishing call the sand paper texture on a flathead's jaws teeth,, They are by No means teeth. I was in general describing the texture on their jaws as similar with the texture on the "Crusher Plates" LOL

I'm going to call them "Crusher Plates " from now on, because that is a better way to describe them.. Thanks Ducky LOL !


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## katfish

We see the crusher plates in flathead but not sure of 
their function.

Normally flathead try to purge during the fight. But every 
now and then I will recover a bait from a flatheads stomach. 
When I do the only damage to the baits that I find is from 
my hooks.

Someone posted about striking quickly to prevent hooking
in the stomach. I say that mature flathead flare their gills
and baits go directly into the stomach. When we set the hooks
they pull out of the bait and often catch in the jaws or lips as
the hook eye clears the mouth.

As Magis suggested some gut hooking is inevitable but we 
can reach into stomachs an gently remove the hooks. With 
the BK hooks the penetration was so good that we often 
drove them through the large lip bones and had to cut barbs 
off to remove them.


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## pendog66

Those crusher plates sure can do a number on your wrist trying to get a hook out of the stomach . I will try to find a picture from a couple years ago. A 30 lber made it look like i was trying to kill myself


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## 10fish

Just a thought as it happened to me. Check your guides by running a q-tip over and through them , maybe your previous braid usage put a small groove in one of the guides. That will cause mono to get cut off. I had a rod I only used braid on, but had a spare spool of mono, well the one time I switched spools my mono cut/broke on every fish, the culprit was the top eyelet had a small groove. Worth checking out.


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## Flathead76

Try kahle hooks and make sure that your hook points are sticky sharp. A good hook file is a must.


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## rustyfish

Have you ever missed a bite from a flathead, there is always lip mark pressed into the fish that is if its not smashed in half. You can always tell if it was a run from a catfish or a gar.


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## jjshbetz11

Haven't been able to get out fishing in process of moving, FINALLY found some proper circle hooks!!!!! Eagle claw sea circle hooks.....


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