# Deer and ehf



## roundheadjig (Nov 9, 2016)

There are now less than 200,000. Deer hunters in ohio 
And it looks like less than 100,000 deer will be tagged this year. I can remember when there were nearly 500,000 deer hunters and close to 250,000 deer killed in a season.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I think around 143,000 have been tagged so far this season. It is sad to see the number of hunters declining though.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Less hunters= less deer killed...whats ehf got to do with it?..if they would bring gun season in the saturday after thanksgiving you would see a spike in both hunters and deer harvest...guaranteed...also they could do away with the 2 day bonus gun season if they did that...but I'm not sure killing more deer or getting more hunters in the woods is what they want.


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## roundheadjig (Nov 9, 2016)

Thank you for the reply.


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## roundheadjig (Nov 9, 2016)

Ehf did remove allot of deer in zone c back about 2012 and before that. I am really surprised Odnr has raised the price to hunt and tag deer I'm sure they have lost allot of money over past few years?


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## Rip n rap (Dec 19, 2015)

No gun longer bow season?? Sounds good..go easy on the replys lol


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Shad Rap said:


> Less hunters= less deer killed...whats ehf got to do with it?..if they would bring gun season in the saturday after thanksgiving you would see a spike in both hunters and deer harvest...guaranteed...also they could do away with the 2 day bonus gun season if they did that...but I'm not sure killing more deer or getting more hunters in the woods is what they want.


I've been hunting for quite a while and I don't ever remember a deer season starting the Saturday after Thanksgiving. 



roundheadjig said:


> Ehf did remove allot of deer in zone c back about 2012 and before that. I am really surprised Odnr has raised the price to hunt and tag deer I'm sure they have lost allot of money over past few years?


In case you've missed it, in years past the ODNR put bag limits in place that allowed us hunters to whack the crap out of the deer herd! And we took full advantage of it! But it seems that it went too far, and now the ODNR is scrambling to catch up. Thus no antlerless tags in most of the state, and reduced bag limits overall. 

The ODNR made money galore when it was "no holds barred", but now they have to eat it a little bit. Predicting population trends of wild animals is no easy task, and there's no better example than the Whitetail herd in Ohio!


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

buckeyebowman said:


> I've been hunting for quite a while and I don't ever remember a deer season starting the Saturday after Thanksgiving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It never has as far as I know...I'm saying they should experiment with it...


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## jmciw17 (Sep 4, 2007)

Time to cut back on limits on taking deer in the country parts of southern ohio. All of the over population problems are in suburbs with limited hunting oportunites. I have owned my property since 1972 and this year has been the fewest hunters around and the least sign of deer in Guernsey county.We did get 3 deer this year so far wich is pleanty for our family but you are not seeing verry manny. I would like to see it go back to 1 buck only per hunter and rebuild the heard. I have an orchard on my property and the deer are not even causing a problem nor are they a problem on any of my neighbors. We all watch the heard around our properties and have seen a steady decline in population for the past 5 years even with less hunting pressure .There are definately moore coyoties around though also.But the bottom line is ODNR wont stop selling tags because thats what pays there salary. Sad that money controls good conservation


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

jmciw17 said:


> I would like to see it go back to 1 buck only per hunter and rebuild the heard.


It is one buck per hunter now. Can you explain what you mean?


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## ML1187 (Mar 13, 2012)

DiverDux said:


> It is one buck per hunter now. Can you explain what you mean?


I'm sure he means 1 deer per person per year , and that has to be a buck.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

We must police ourselves. Three years ago, a fever hit the herd hard in some areas of portage county and the deer population still has not recovered. I won't hunt those areas. Start to treat deer as the big game animal it is, not wanting to hunt them as rabbits. A good trapper will never take all furs in his territory, leaving brood stock for next season. We do not need one size fits all limits, or our hands held. Look with Your own eyes and determine which, if any deer to harvest. The population will come back in everyone's area, if We let it.


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

chatterbox said:


> We do not need one size fits all limits, or our hands held. Look with Your own eyes and determine which, if any deer to harvest. The population will come back in everyone's area, if We let it.


I don't see a "one size fits all" mentality when it comes to deer management in Ohio. Currently the DOW employs a county-by-county policy regarding bag limits and the use of antlerless tags. They will soon move away from the county system in favor of "deer/wildlife management zones" to better manage individual populations within different habitat types. 

And, while deer tags do raise money for the DOW, I am confident that the DOW have our wildlife resources best interests in mind when they set seasons and bag limits. There are many issues that come into play when any type of policy is put into action. When it comes to white-tailed deer; insurance companies, the Ohio Farm Bureau, sportsmen and women, urban municipalities etc. all are providing input as to what they would like to see regarding white-tailed deer densities. The DOW can't make everyone happy, but the sportsmen and women of Ohio usually rank high when it comes to the decision making process. Understand hunter recruitment and retention are extremely important in today's world and most state and federal wildlife agencies are doing everything they can to compete with other interests (athletics, computers, video games) while attempting to make it more convenient for people to get out and hunt. I believe those years of "whack-em & stack-em" were about trying to offer Ohio's hunters additional opportunities to harvest deer while appeasing the Ohio Farm Bureau. I think the DOW underestimated the number of people who would take advantage of those increased opportunities. 

Things are rarely as simple as they appear.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Diver Dux, I am with You 100 %. That is why I say use Our own eyes and brain and make an educated decision. After all, We are suppose to be responsible enough to hunt.


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## mmtchell (Jul 9, 2014)

Almost every hunter I know that either quit hunting or is about to is from losing the property they hunted on from leases,, the majority of hunters are not going to lease property to hunt ,,Most are from out of stater's . Because the tags are cheap in ohio and no draw like other states,, until that changes its gonna get worse..................getting forced to go fishing year round'''


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Another problem around my place, is the small wood lots on the big farms are being timbered down to bare ground. They grind the stumps out and plant bigger crops. After the crop is harvested, there is not bean, or kernel of corn any where. The fence rows look like they are manicured. It's almost to the point I have to feed the birds even in the summer or they'll starve. Four years ago, I harvested a twelve point right behind my house. They are disking the spot where it fell as I write. Forty acres of nice hickory, beach, and oak gone for rest of my life time. The 400 acre farm across the road does not have enough cover to hide a rabbit. No orchards, no gardens, no berry patches, no live stock. Soy, Corn, Wheat, over and over. The previous owner was a multi millionaire judge, Who inherited the property. More money, more money, more money. Old King Tut couldn't buy one more second on this earth. Go figure.


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## mmtchell (Jul 9, 2014)

Yep ...its becoming a money sport. ..


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

5 or 6 years ago they got way to liberal with how many deer a hunter could take in 1 deer season. We are reaping the after effects of those liberal numbers. JMO
Also I do not like the new way you check your deer in either. It is way to easy for someone to just kill a deer and take it home and process it without even using a tag. another JMO


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Shad Rap said:


> It never has as far as I know...I'm saying they should experiment with it...


Absolutely not! The problem is too many deer have been killed! Don't need more killed. The herd is in significant decline between over harvest, disease, and the BS check system we have in which many dishonest individuals fail to properly register their kill. All one has to do is drive any major highway and see the decrease in dead deer on the side of the road to tell them the population is decline. The state made a fortune on the deer herd, but what has it done to reinvest? It certainly does not do a breeding or stocking program (sarcasm) it has done little to improve,or acquire habitat, and it certainly does invader resources to enforce integrity. I could care less if there are fewer hunters, that would only ensure the demise of the herd. Less liberal limits need to be in place. Why does one person need to kill 6 deer in a season? It's sad what has been done to this great resource.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

chatterbox said:


> We must police ourselves. Three years ago, a fever hit the herd hard in some areas of portage county and the deer population still has not recovered. I won't hunt those areas. Start to treat deer as the big game animal it is, not wanting to hunt them as rabbits. A good trapper will never take all furs in his territory, leaving brood stock for next season. We do not need one size fits all limits, or our hands held. Look with Your own eyes and determine which, if any deer to harvest. The population will come back in everyone's area, if We let it.





chatterbox said:


> Another problem around my place, is the small wood lots on the big farms are being timbered down to bare ground. They grind the stumps out and plant bigger crops. After the crop is harvested, there is not bean, or kernel of corn any where. The fence rows look like they are manicured. It's almost to the point I have to feed the birds even in the summer or they'll starve. Four years ago, I harvested a twelve point right behind my house. They are disking the spot where it fell as I write. Forty acres of nice hickory, beach, and oak gone for rest of my life time. The 400 acre farm across the road does not have enough cover to hide a rabbit. No orchards, no gardens, no berry patches, no live stock. Soy, Corn, Wheat, over and over. The previous owner was a multi millionaire judge, Who inherited the property. More money, more money, more money. Old King Tut couldn't buy one more second on this earth. Go figure.


Yep, and yep! My BIL has a private farm to hunt in SE Ohio. It encompasses a creek valley with timbered ridges on either side. 5-6 years ago the area got hit with a really bad drought, and the creek and all the little feeders coming off the ridges dried up to nothing! EHD (which I guess is what the ehf in the thread title refers to), whacked the herd! But, it's been recovering nicely the past couple of years.

We drove down for the last half of gun season on Wednesday, 11/30, arriving about 11AM. While I set up the cabin, my BIL took off on his ATV to retrieve his 2 game cams, which had been placed in mid November. Holy cow! What a smorgasbord of deer! Between both cameras were 10 different bucks ranging between one small spike and one small forkhorn, all the way up to a couple of real Buckzillas! And does galore!

Excited, we threw on hunting clothes and went out since there didn't look like any more rain was coming our way. About 3:30 I get a text from my BIL saying he had just finished gutting out his doe and he was taking it back to the cabin. Told me to keep hunting and he'd pick me up at dark. I thought, "We're in the money!" What a way to start out!

Long story short, we didn't see another deer the rest of the week! This, despite having photographic evidence to the contrary!

As for your second post, my buddy has experienced the same in his lifetime. When he was a young man there was an apple orchard across the road, and thickets, and cover for wild life. He could walk over there and whack a couple of pheasant or rabbit for dinner. Not so today! The apple orchard went away to make room for houses, and the neighbor just up the street "cleaned up" his property and then wondered where all the critters went!

The farm behind his house is now leased to a big time guy with modern equipment. His machines don't leave enough food on the ground for a flock of sparrows! There are still deer around, thank God, but who knows how they feed themselves!


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

caseyroo said:


> Absolutely not! The problem is too many deer have been killed! Don't need more killed. The herd is in significant decline between over harvest, disease, and the BS check system we have in which many dishonest individuals fail to properly register their kill. All one has to do is drive any major highway and see the decrease in dead deer on the side of the road to tell them the population is decline. The state made a fortune on the deer herd, but what has it done to reinvest? It certainly does not do a breeding or stocking program (sarcasm) it has done little to improve,or acquire habitat, and it certainly does invader resources to enforce integrity. I could care less if there are fewer hunters, that would only ensure the demise of the herd. Less liberal limits need to be in place. Why does one person need to kill 6 deer in a season? It's sad what has been done to this great resource.


What do you mean absolutely not?..I'm not adding any days to the gun season...just thought if they wanted the two day bonus hunt, the smart thing to do would be to bring the season in on the saturday after thanksgiving and do away with the 2 day bonus later on...thats all I was saying...


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

caseyroo said:


> Absolutely not! The problem is too many deer have been killed! Don't need more killed. The herd is in significant decline between over harvest, disease, and the BS check system we have in which many dishonest individuals fail to properly register their kill. All one has to do is drive any major highway and see the decrease in dead deer on the side of the road to tell them the population is decline. The state made a fortune on the deer herd, but what has it done to reinvest? It certainly does not do a breeding or stocking program (sarcasm) it has done little to improve,or acquire habitat, and it certainly does invader resources to enforce integrity. I could care less if there are fewer hunters, that would only ensure the demise of the herd. Less liberal limits need to be in place. Why does one person need to kill 6 deer in a season? It's sad what has been done to this great resource.


And by the way...must be the area you're in, because I see deer everywhere...and no shortage of them dead along interstates/roads either...especially during the rut...the deer are still there...the majority of hunters only shoot one deer a year if they are lucky...hunters shooting multiple deer a year are a very, very, very, very small percentage of hunters.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Shad Rap said:


> What do you mean absolutely not?..I'm not adding any days to the gun season...just thought if they wanted the two day bonus hunt, the smart thing to do would be to bring the season in on the saturday after thanksgiving and do away with the 2 day bonus later on...thats all I was saying...


First off increasing the kill numbers is not a good idea, we've seen the result of that. Secondly, the way the weather patterns have changed, and the unseasonably warm weather we have experienced in mid November, the rut has occurred later, and later each year. I know two days may not sound significant, but that is two more days we totally disrupt this necessary behavior. If anything push gun season back.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Shad Rap said:


> And by the way...must be the area you're in, because I see deer everywhere...and no shortage of them dead along interstates/roads either...especially during the rut...the deer are still there...the majority of hunters only shoot one deer a year if they are lucky...hunters shooting multiple deer a year are a very, very, very, very small percentage of hunters.


Nobody is saying that the deer aren't there, but you are WAY off base if you think the numbers are up, or have held steady. Take a drive from Canton to Newcomerstown on 77 and tell me there are more dead now than in the past? It's just not the case. Now, the quality of deer maybe better, but the numbers are not. In regards to multiple deer killed by individuals each year, A lot of hunters take at least two per year. Two is not a bad thing, but there are those gluttons that have killed 5 or 6 in a season. Why the state even allows a person to kill 6 is insane. Let's not even take into account how many thousands are illegally harvested by failure to be reported.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

caseyroo said:


> First off increasing the kill numbers is not a good idea, we've seen the result of that. Secondly, the way the weather patterns have changed, and the unseasonably warm weather we have experienced in mid November, the rut has occurred later, and later each year. I know two days may not sound significant, but that is two more days we totally disrupt this necessary behavior. If anything push gun season back.


You're crazy...the rut is the same time every year...never changes...and I drive probably 5 hours a day variuos places...and the deer are still there...dead and alive...less hunters =less deer killed...I'm not the only one to still see deer...believe me.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

caseyroo said:


> Nobody is saying that the deer aren't there, but you are WAY off base if you think the numbers are up, or have held steady. Take a drive from Canton to Newcomerstown on 77 and tell me there are more dead now than in the past? It's just not the case. Now, the quality of deer maybe better, but the numbers are not. In regards to multiple deer killed by individuals each year, A lot of hunters take at least two per year. Two is not a bad thing, but there are those gluttons that have killed 5 or 6 in a season. Why the state even allows a person to kill 6 is insane. Let's not even take into account how many thousands are illegally harvested by failure to be reported.


Never said anything about numbers being up.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

..


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## skiff (Feb 18, 2015)

I don't think there is any question that the deer herd is quite a bit smaller then it used to be. Sure some areas still have good numbers but a lot of others have a lot fewer then a few years ago. Hopefully the ODNR will push the right buttons to help those areas. Back in the early 1990's on our family farm in union county we had good numbers. When the ODNR started encouraging harvesting does things changed quickly. We still strictly hunted bucks only but that didn't stop hunters on neighboring properties from over harvesting does. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with someone harvesting a doe if the population can stand it. I've done it myself. It bothers me though when someone complains about not seeing hardly any deer or deer sign in the area they hunt and then they shoot a doe. Unfortunately habitat loss and loss of access is a real problem that is probably only going to get worse. This year I lost hunting privileges to a farm where I had managed to take several good bucks because it was annexed by Hilliard and there is no hunting allowed in the city limits. leasing of the best areas also something that hurts the little guy.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Ok.... You might want to research rut activity based on cyclical changes, and the Earths solar and lunar illuminations. Read Charles Alsheimer, the leading expert on rut activity. Here is one excerpt
This year the “Rutting Moon” is much later than it was last year and most years in general, falling on November 14th. That’s compared to a Rutting Moon of October 27th in 2015 and November 6th in 2014. The last time we had a late Rutting Moon like this was in 2013, when it fell on November 17th, and according to Laroche/Alsheimer, that late moon resulted in a “trickle rut” with most rutting activity happening later than usual (third or fourth weeks in November), with other peaks and valleys occurring sporadically over late October and 

Notice the peak is week three and four! That would put the peak of the rut in your Saturday before Thanksgiving this year? Sorry not the same time every year! Educate yourself before you make assumptions.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Buckeyebowman gets it. Go to the properties You hunt, or in Your front yard and plant a white or red oak tree, or a beach or two. Thin out the turkey, coyote, wild dogs, and feral cat populations and remember, for every young doe You harvest, You take approximately fifteen deer from the area over seven years. While you're at it stack up some brush to give rabbits and game birds protection. Plant a small clover patch. You don't need the Department of Wild Life to improve Your hunting areas. Look at it as this is part of the hunt and enjoy your harvest even more. We must be top predator or the others will. Then just watch all wild game do better.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Shad Rap said:


> You're crazy...the rut is the same time every year...never changes...and I drive probably 5 hours a day variuos places...and the deer are still there...dead and alive...less hunters =less deer killed...I'm not the only one to still see deer...believe me.





chatterbox said:


> Buckeyebowman gets it. Go to the properties You hunt, or in Your front yard and plant a white or red oak tree, or a beach or two. Thin out the turkey, coyote, wild dogs, and feral cat populations and remember, for every young doe You harvest, You take approximately fifteen deer from the area over seven years. While you're at it stack up some brush to give rabbits and game birds protection. Plant a small clover patch. You don't need the Department of Wild Life to improve Your hunting areas. Look at it as this is part of the hunt and enjoy your harvest even more. We must be top predator or the others will. Then just watch all wild game do better.


I agree completely with you. I'm fortunate enough to have private property to mange. However, what does the state do for those that hunt public, or don't have access to their own property? Very little. The one thing they can control is proper bag limits, and a system that works in regards to accountability. What they did in the past was a massacre.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

*I Live real close to a public hunting area that's near huge population centers and have watched the same 14 pointer at night for six years. He died of old age. Most deer in public areas are nocturnal and all bucks over 3 years old are 98% of the time. The public areas in a 50 mile radius of me are some of the most UNGODLY thick swamps You ever seen. Very hard to hunt with very short visibility and terrible terrain. Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile but if I were starving I sure wouldn't hunt public land near me. Give me a small private wood lot and I'll be happy.*


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Now on the other hand I have hunted B&N coal property in Noble County just South of Caldwell successfully (public land) and had written permission to hunt 1000 acres of private land just outside of Cadiz for years. There are places to have very enjoyable hunts if a little effort is put out. Tell You what, let me hunt the medium strip of Route 77 after the first day of season or a small clump of weeds under an oak tree in the middle of a huge plowed field. No matter where I hunt, if Numbers are down all does walk, and If real low I won't even hunt it.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

chatterbox said:


> *I Live real close to a public hunting area that's near huge population centers and have watched the same 14 pointer at night for six years. He died of old age. Most deer in public areas are nocturnal and all bucks over 3 years old are 98% of the time. The public areas in a 50 mile radius of me are some of the most UNGODLY thick swamps You ever seen. Very hard to hunt with very short visibility and terrible terrain. Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile but if I were starving I sure wouldn't hunt public land near me. Give me a small private wood lot and I'll be happy.*


That's a wise comment, chatterbox! Public land holds some huge deer! My buddy and I were hunting Berlin wildlife area for pheasant one day and took a detour through a section of woods on the way back to the car. We found buck sign to make us drool! When we checked out where the trails led, we had no interest in going back in there! Just awful, nasty stuff!


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

buckeyebowman said:


> That's a wise comment, chatterbox! Public land holds some huge deer! My buddy and I were hunting Berlin wildlife area for pheasant one day and took a detour through a section of woods on the way back to the car. We found buck sign to make us drool! When we checked out where the trails led, we had no interest in going back in there! Just awful, nasty stuff!


You would have to get in a tree stand with shotgun and buck shot, then turn loose a pack of beagles and in most of them I don't think that would work! HA! HA! HA! Anyone up for a real challenge can gladly have my opportunity and YOU are a better hunter than me! They are there, and they are big, but being there is how they got big.


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## roundheadjig (Nov 9, 2016)

roundheadjig said:


> Ehf did remove allot of deer in zone c back about 2012 and before that. I am really surprised Odnr has raised the price to hunt and tag deer I'm sure they have lost allot of money over past few years?


For better or worse probably better for the deer I believe EHD IS used by odnr to manage the deer numbers especially where access by hunters is an issue. I had hope to see more days to hunt with a shotgun or muzzleloader but that wouldn't help manage deer numbers where one cannot hunt them.......


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

roundheadjig said:


> For better or worse probably better for the deer I believe EHD IS used by odnr to manage the deer numbers especially where access by hunters is an issue. I had hope to see more days to hunt with a shotgun or muzzleloader but that wouldn't help manage deer numbers where one cannot hunt them.......


I am in some agreement as a possibility. No one can convince me that the coyotes and browse eating turkeys were not reintroduced by the ODNR. They did not just suddenly appear. Kill fawns and starve the herd. The only problem, it never stops. If I owned a hunting property, I'd trap them all out. There would be relentless killing of both, and wild dogs a bonus and feral cats open season. First thing I'd do is put up no trespass, private property signs so it would take a search warrant to enter. Wouldn't take long to have a small and big game oasis.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

chatterbox said:


> I am in some agreement as a possibility. No one can convince me that the coyotes and browse eating turkeys were not reintroduced by the ODNR. They did not just suddenly appear. Kill fawns and starve the herd. The only problem, it never stops. If I owned a hunting property, I'd trap them all out. There would be relentless killing of both, and wild dogs a bonus and feral cats open season. First thing I'd do is put up no trespass, private property signs so it would take a search warrant to enter. Wouldn't take long to have a small and big game oasis.


FYI-Game wardens can go on private property with out a warrant as part of their normal duties. They don't have to have permission.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

supercanoe said:


> FYI-Game wardens can go on private property with out a warrant as part of their normal duties. They don't have to have permission.


Nothing but a small technicality, because nothing would stop me from having a nice place to hunt. May take a little longer is all. But there would not be a flock of 100 filthy stinking turkeys or 30 yotes killing deer, or small game. Especially seeing how there is only one warden in every county that can't give assistance with population control.


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

chatterbox said:


> I am in some agreement as a possibility. No one can convince me that the coyotes and browse eating turkeys were not reintroduced by the ODNR. They did not just suddenly appear. Kill fawns and starve the herd. The only problem, it never stops. If I owned a hunting property, I'd trap them all out. There would be relentless killing of both, and wild dogs a bonus and feral cats open season. First thing I'd do is put up no trespass, private property signs so it would take a search warrant to enter. Wouldn't take long to have a small and big game oasis.





chatterbox said:


> Nothing but a small technicality, because nothing would stop me from having a nice place to hunt. May take a little longer is all. But there would not be a flock of 100 filthy stinking turkeys or 30 yotes killing deer, or small game. Especially seeing how there is only one warden in every county that can't give assistance with population control.


It's good to see that in your unmitigated wisdom you have a developed a brilliant plan to increase the population of one species while destroying the populations of two others.

While all out war on predators didn't work in the past, their numbers were reduced to levels that allowed prey populations to skyrocket. The result was severe damage to the forests and fields.
The concept that any piece of land (habitat) can only support so many of any species is known as "carrying capacity." If wildlife populations are permitted to increase unchecked they will exceed the carrying capacity and quite simply wildlife populations will crash. Based on this basic ecological concept, your plan is fundamentally flawed.

I am not suggesting that predator (and turkey?) populations should not be managed, but the "relentless killing" of anything you percieve to be a detriment to already artificially inflated deer populations is scientifically unsound and quite honestly ignorant. And, by-the-way your contempt for wildlife law and law enforcement is distressing. It appears that if you don't agree with something you just ignore it and do as you please.

I will leave you with an essay that may help you see the error in your thinking. However, I am skeptical of any level of success regarding your willingness to accept any science based input as you are on record boasting about being closed minded regarding the re-introduction of coyotes (they were not) and turkeys (they were).

This essay is about wolves, but it applies to any predator/prey relationship including coyotes/deer.

http://www.eco-action.org/dt/thinking.html

*I use this link as it contains the whole Leupold essay. I am not promoting the organization that posted it!

*


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## Scorpio V (Aug 23, 2013)

chatterbox said:


> Nothing but a small technicality, because nothing would stop me from having a nice place to hunt. May take a little longer is all. But there would not be a flock of 100 filthy stinking turkeys or 30 yotes killing deer, or small game. Especially seeing how there is only one warden in every county that can't give assistance with population control.


For you to have "30 yotes killing deer, or small game." You must have one very very large piece of property to have a carrying capacity of 30 predators. Coyote have large home areas, we are talking square miles. 
Sorry just had to post. I understand your feelings but just can't agree with them.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

chatterbox said:


> Nothing but a small technicality, because nothing would stop me from having a nice place to hunt. May take a little longer is all. But there would not be a flock of 100 filthy stinking turkeys or 30 yotes killing deer, or small game. Especially seeing how there is only one warden in every county that can't give assistance with population control.


Wow! Talk about an uneducated post! Why don't you kill all the squirrels that eat the nut crops each fall too. Didn't realize a wardens job was population control?


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

G&G Sportfishing said:


> For you to have "30 yotes killing deer, or small game." You must have one very very large piece of property to have a carrying capacity of 30 predators. Coyote have large home areas, we are talking square miles.
> Sorry just had to post. I understand your feelings but just can't agree with them.


As surprising as it sounds, that is possible. A trapper took 38 coyotes off of the property next to us the first winter that he trapped it. He has not come close to that number again since then though. That was about 4 years ago.


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## Scorpio V (Aug 23, 2013)

That's a lot of canines off one property. Looks like he's got them under control. Good for him. I hope he benefited from good fur prices.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Diver Dux, I have seen flocks of turkeys with literally hundreds of birds in it. I used to have three different groups of yotes containing a minimum of five in each group almost in my back yard every night. Haiti's would freeze over before ODNR would control either species. What chance do I have to harvest deer on a forty acre wood lot with such an outlandish number of Your filthy darlins? From now on don't be so narrow minded as to believe everyone in Ohio hunt large sprawling tracks of land or that there not literally being ran over by other species. The ODNR CAN'T or WON'T help me so I have no recourse than to help myself. YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK, IF THATS MY ONLY OPTION, I AM WILLING AND CAPABLE. Now, if You don't like my reasoning call the ODNR and get more than one warden per county, and cut the populations to the supposed carrying capacity that You are so full of Yourself with.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

The Ravenna Arsenal is about 4miles north of my house ( 25000 acres of posted gov't fenced wooded breeding land. There are miles and miles of 400 acre or less farms with 5 to 50 acre wood lots. Most with a house in the middle and the rest land the owner and family hunt so won't give permission.. The yotes alone live inside the towns around the area. The farmer 1/2 a mile down the road from me quit raising sheep because they were so brazen they attack his sheep in broad day light. Peoples small dogs are carried off if let in the yard unattended. Don't judge me when You have no clue what I am referencing to.
Also the trapping is not about the pelt money. It's about live stock killing, keeping small children and small pets safe. Some areas are literally over ran because there is no balance of large unhunt able habitat. The fact is very few people trap or hunt anything but deer. Free ride for the yotes and to prolific breeders for the turkeys.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

caseyroo said:


> .
> 
> Notice the peak is week three and four! That would put the peak of the rut in your Saturday before Thanksgiving this year? Sorry not the same time every year! Educate yourself before you make assumptions.




It is a pretty simple task to read the study results to determine what triggers a doe coming into estrus and yes, it does occur at the same time every year according to those that are actually qualified to reach that conclusion.

PHOTOPERIOD
https://www.qdma.com/triggers-whitetail-rut/
http://www.petersenshunting.com/tips-tactics/weather-conditions-affect-rut/
http://bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features/articles/moontheory/
http://msudeerlab.com/breedingseason.asp


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

chatterbox said:


> No one can convince me that the coyotes and browse eating turkeys were not reintroduced by the ODNR.


No doubt the ODNR reintroduced turkeys in many areas of Ohio. They not only don't deny it they are proud of their results as are many hunters in Ohio. Coyotes I do not believe were introduced by the ODNR. My first coyote that I saw in Ohio was in the late 70's and I think the current population is just mother nature doing what she does, much like with the current growing population of bobcats


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## miked913 (Feb 29, 2008)

chatterbox said:


> The Ravenna Arsenal is about 4miles north of my house ( 25000 acres of posted gov't fenced wooded breeding land. There are miles and miles of 400 acre or less farms with 5 to 50 acre wood lots. Most with a house in the middle and the rest land the owner and family hunt so won't give permission.. The yotes alone live inside the towns around the area. The farmer 1/2 a mile down the road from me quit raising sheep because they were so brazen they attack his sheep in broad day light. Peoples small dogs are carried off if let in the yard unattended. Don't judge me when You have no clue what I am referencing to.
> Also the trapping is not about the pelt money. It's about live stock killing, keeping small children and small pets safe. Some areas are literally over ran because there is no balance of large unhunt able habitat. The fact is very few people trap or hunt anything but deer. Free ride for the yotes and to prolific breeders for the turkeys.


I call BS completely, I am a portage county nuisance trapper and if, and that is a HUGE if there were even a single confirmed live stock kill, the odnr would be all over it and have professional trappers involved, #2 Ohio has never had any kind of child attacked by a coyote you are just plain making crap up. Domestic dogs and cats do more damage to livestock than coyotes could dream of. You must be mad that you lost your hunting spot and since you killed 1 deer there in 1990 it must have been the greatest place ever. Geeze I can't wait til next month when the coyotes are breeding and more vocal. You'll probably be telling people that's the sound they make after they kill a 90 year old woman.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Drive north on Rt. 534 from Rt 5 in the early spring and You will see the flocks of 3 to 4 hundred turkeys per flock near mosquito creek public hunting area. Drive past the city limit sign in little Newtonfalls on Holcomb road and see the flock of 100 birds. Drive east on Rt5 from Newtonfalls to Niles and look at all the breeding, no hunting areas. Go to the south side of West Branch Public hunting area and look at the no hunting area across the road, then go on the north side and look at the arsenal. While Your at it, look at the flocks of turkeys and You Yote lovers can see all You want even in broad day light! I don't know what I am talking about but I can take You to Stark, Portage, Mahoning, Summit, and Geauga counties and show You The scenario I experience.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

miked913 said:


> I call BS completely, I am a portage county nuisance trapper and if, and that is a HUGE if there were even a single confirmed live stock kill, the odnr would be all over it and have professional trappers involved, #2 Ohio has never had any kind of child attacked by a coyote you are just plain making crap up. Domestic dogs and cats do more damage to livestock than coyotes could dream of. You must be mad that you lost your hunting spot and since you killed 1 deer there in 1990 it must have been the greatest place ever. Geeze I can't wait til next month when the coyotes are breeding and more vocal. You'll probably be telling people that's the sound they make after they kill a 90 year old woman.


Funny, it was a professional such as Yourself that the farmer across the road from me calls to get the yotes. The farmer at the end of the road that gives me written permission to hunt his property hunts them himself and he and a friend farmer down by Rt. 18 both claim the yotes take their sheep. I know for a fact I have seen them take fawns around my place more than one time. If there is no yote problem, how does a need for a professional such as Yourself exist?

Oh, by the way, In Your case, I use the term professional loosely.


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## miked913 (Feb 29, 2008)

Um you see large flocks because it's lots of birds from a large area together because that's how they survive the winters once the breeding starts they break up and distribute back across the area. The arsenal while it is posted has both trapping and hunting going on inside the fences. Turkey numbers have been down the last couple years and it was nice that it appears we had a good hatch last spring the cicadas must have helped. I'm sorry your so misinformed and angry. I hope you find some sort of hobby you'll be able to enjoy.


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

Chatterbox-

Not judging you, just responding to what you posted about yourself and your beliefs while trying to educate you regarding the issues you have with predators, turkeys, private landowners and the ODNR, DOW.

The way it reads, you can't kill a deer because...

The coyotes eat all the deer as well as any pet dogs left unattended in backyards. However, they don't do so well on the stray dogs or feral cats that live on or around your property.

The hundreds of turkeys I assume, eat all the feed, so there isn't any left for the deer that aren't there because the coyotes ate them all.

No private property owners will grant you permission to hunt on their property because they hunt it themselves.

The ODNR, DOW won't employ more wildlife officers to kill the coyotes that eat all the deer.

The ODNR, DOW stocks coyotes. (You know, I heard they stock rattlesnakes too, by dropping them out of helicopters.)


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## miked913 (Feb 29, 2008)

Most of my calls are for beavers, the coyote calls can usually be solved by people taking in there bird feeders and turning their deer feeders off for a while and once the birds, chipmunks and squirrels (hint: that's what they really eat) have stopped concentrating in one small easy to predict area the coyotes will move off to someone else's.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Really, all in context huh? I have had a warden tell me to get rid of every feral cat I can, but he didn't say that. In previous post a suppose to be professional trapper says he is called to trap yotes because farmers have no problem with them. Two different farmers have told me they have taken lambs on there property during broad day light. I have witnessed myself yotes take fawns. It may not be documented in Ohio, However I have read reports of yote attacks on humans.

Whether You like it or not,I am not impressed with turkeys, or yotes. Please, You take them all.


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

roundheadjig said:


> There are now less than 200,000. Deer hunters in ohio


Seems to me there are nearly that number of Outdoor Show "hunters" hunting the "big bucks" in our state alone! About limits, one deer per hunter for a couple years and we'd be covered up with them. Too many people shoot "as many as the law allows"! Not good "conservation of a resource" IMO!(ever hear of the "blue pike"?) Wonder how many of those 'as many as the law allows' end up in the garbage with freezer burn?


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

caseyroo said:


> Ok.... You might want to research rut activity based on cyclical changes, and the Earths solar and lunar illuminations. Read Charles Alsheimer, the leading expert on rut activity. Here is one excerpt
> This year the “Rutting Moon” is much later than it was last year and most years in general, falling on November 14th. That’s compared to a Rutting Moon of October 27th in 2015 and November 6th in 2014. The last time we had a late Rutting Moon like this was in 2013, when it fell on November 17th, and according to Laroche/Alsheimer, that late moon resulted in a “trickle rut” with most rutting activity happening later than usual (third or fourth weeks in November), with other peaks and valleys occurring sporadically over late October and
> 
> Notice the peak is week three and four! That would put the peak of the rut in your Saturday before Thanksgiving this year? Sorry not the same time every year! Educate yourself before you make assumptions.


Hey mr clueless...educate yourself...the rut is the same time every year!!!...I never said a thing about the rut on the saturday after thanksgiving...it was just putting the bonus hunt right after thanksgiving...had nothing to do with the rut...get a clue...the same person bitchin about deer numbers doesnt even know when the rut is...bwahahahaha...has NOTHING to do with the rutting moon...you read too much...bwahahahahahahahahaha...your're a comedian...keep them coming...you have about a two week span for the rut...and it never changes...and since you obviously dont know when it is, I'm not telling you...haha...talk to any hunter that actually hunts and doesnt just read books like yourself.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Lundy said:


> It is a pretty simple task to read the study results to determine what triggers a doe coming into estrus and yes, it does occur at the same time every year according to those that are actually qualified to reach that conclusion.
> 
> PHOTOPERIOD
> https://www.qdma.com/triggers-whitetail-rut/
> ...


Thanks lundy...got some real winners around here thinking the rut changes from year to year...lol.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

DiverDux said:


> Chatterbox-
> 
> Not judging you, just responding to what you posted about yourself and your beliefs while trying to educate you regarding the issues you have with predators, turkeys, private landowners and the ODNR, DOW.
> 
> ...


Diver Dux and caseyroo, You, and a few others are just too narrow minded. I have plenty of places to hunt. I have said around my house it is small wood lots with huge open fields, and terrain as flat as glass window. Yes, there is a lot of inaccessible land as well. For crying out loud, the whole state of Ohio, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia is at my disposal for an example. I have had hunting cabins or homes in all three.

What good does it do me to hunt a small wood lot that was surrounded by three packs of yipping yotes all night? No deer is going to cross an open field with a pack in it.

Now picture my great delight when a flock of 200 turkeys comes into a 20 acre woodlot and eats every bit of browse. Until the next year no deer has a reason to use this particular wood lot. Now if I can not obtain access for what ever reason to wood lots near by, I must abandon the whole area till next year, just to now have a 250 flock to deal with.

Now take off Your blinders and picture between deer hit by cars, fawns killed by coyotes, deer driven to other wood lots, prime habitat destroyed by over populations of turkeys, the fever that this OP. posted about, and the greed of some hunters wanting to harvest too many deer, I am justified to look after my deer hunting area.

NOW WHEN YOU AND CASEYROO MANAGE TO DIG YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR HIND ENDS YOU MIGHT COME CLOSER TO BEING AN OUTDOORSMAN, HOWEVER UNTIL THAT DAY, THE TWO OF YOU TOGETHER CAN'T HOLD A CANDLE FOR ME TO SEE BY. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT TOO HILLBILLY BAD!!! NOW IF YOUR I.Q. ISN'T TOO EXTREMELY LOW, JUST MAYBE YOU WILL SEE WHEN IT COMES TO HUNTING IT'S NOT JUST POINTING A BOW OR GUN. I HOPE SOMEDAY YOU ARE CAPABLE OF BECOMING A GOOD OUTDOORSMAN. NIETHER OF YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO CALL ANYONE UNEDUCATED.


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## Scorpio V (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok, I've been following this thread. It's abundantly clear to me that you chatterbox have an strong opinion, that you are allowed. With that being said, so do the other members. What you are stating about your management plans are out there, and illegal with the respect to the turkeys. Nothing is going to change the minds or opinions of the members of this site and we will not change yours. As for your comment about the greed of hunters killing deer, well I'm one of those hunters and I find that offensive. I'm hunt, trap and fish within the limits of the law. With this last post I ask the moderators to close this thread because it is getting well out of hand. 
Thank you and Merry Christmas


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

G&G, I am allowed my opinion the same as You. Now if You don't like it ignore it. Go read a post You like. What makes You think anyone must believe the way YOU want them to.

I wonder what length some would go to if they could stop invasive species in lake Erie. Past and future. It does not matter, because no one did or will do a thing and here are zebra muzzles, gobies, and possibly big heads. Now nothing can be done.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Shad Rap said:


> Thanks lundy...got some real winners around here thinking the rut changes from year to year...lol.





chatterbox said:


> Diver Dux and caseyroo, You, and a few others are just too narrow minded. I have plenty of places to hunt. I have said around my house it is small wood lots with huge open fields, and terrain as flat as glass window. Yes, there is a lot of inaccessible land as well. For crying out loud, the whole state of Ohio, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia is at my disposal for an example. I have had hunting cabins or homes in all three.
> 
> What good does it do me to hunt a small wood lot that was surrounded by three packs of yipping yotes all night? No deer is going to cross an open field with a pack in it.
> 
> ...


And there it is the " hillbilly" in you comes out of your own mouth! Outdoorsman? Is that defined by one that states to KILL every turkey? Is that one that states screw the ODNR and their laws? In one post your playing the Bob Barker of OGF saving the pet population, and in another you want all particular animals killed except the ones YOU feel are warranted to live. Just curious why the deer population is more valuable, and important than the turkey population? Because YOU deem it is? Your right hunting is more than pointing a gun,or shooting a bow. It's about having appreciation for all wildlife. It's about ethics, and following the law whether you agree with it or not. Nobody cares whether your hunting one acre, or 1000 acres, or if your successful or not. However, people do care about your narrow minded approach to conservation. If you feel you have all the answers attend an ODNR regulations meeting, and tell them to kill all the turkeys. See where that gets you. I enjoy hunting deer and turkey, and I understand there comes a responsibility that goes with it. I don't shoot the squirrel that makes too much noise during a sit. I don't shoot turkeys because they scratched a hillside, and I certainly don't feel I can or should take the law into my hands. Last question I have is, who made you GOD to deceide what species is good, and which is evil? Which lives, and which should be extinct?


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

Chatterbox-
Seems as though you have an issue with anybody that has an opinion different than yours. The way you attack people with differing views reminds me of a certain female politician...
I'm out!!!


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

It was the ODNR that reintroduced the turkeys. I expect flock control, just the same as deer control. Don't kid Yourself, they reintroduced the turkeys to help reduce the deer heard. I would not give a dime for all the wild turkeys. That does not make me uneducated, wrong, or anything else. My thought and my right. I do not have to agree with the ODNR and don't. Stop trying to conform me to Your way of thinking, not going to happen. I believe there needs to be a balance of all game. What do You think the sharp shooters are doing to the deer in Solon, Ohio and other areas? Thinning the large flocks of turkeys is the exact same thing. With Your way of thinking the turkey population will level out all right and at the same time the deer population will be gone because the flock is not being managed. I grew up with very, very few deer in Ohio, and do not want to see it again. Year after year 125,000 deer starved to death in Pa. Don't think the same can't happen in Ohio.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

G&G Sportfishing said:


> Ok, I've been following this thread. It's abundantly clear to me that you chatterbox have an strong opinion, that you are allowed. With that being said, so do the other members. What you are stating about your management plans are out there, and illegal with the respect to the turkeys. Nothing is going to change the minds or opinions of the members of this site and we will not change yours. As for your comment about the greed of hunters killing deer, well I'm one of those hunters and I find that offensive. I'm hunt, trap and fish within the limits of the law. With this last post I ask the moderators to close this thread because it is getting well out of hand.
> Thank you and Merry Christmas


Good post , except for you wanting it closed. This is a pretty good thread with many opinions. People always want them closed right after they get done posting. If it bothers you don't open it anymore. Asking it to be closed is selfish on your part. If the mods do this every time one person doesn't like a thread this place would be very boring. 
Merry Christmas


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## Scorpio V (Aug 23, 2013)

Point taken



bobk said:


> Good post , except for you wanting it closed. This is a pretty good thread with many opinions. People always want them closed right after they get done posting. If it bothers you don't open it anymore. Asking it to be closed is selfish on your part. If the mods do this every time one person doesn't like a thread this place would be very boring.
> Merry Christmas


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

chatterbox said:


> It was the ODNR that reintroduced the turkeys. I expect flock control, just the same as deer control. Don't kid Yourself, they reintroduced the turkeys to help reduce the deer heard. I would not give a dime for all the wild turkeys. That does not make me uneducated, wrong, or anything else. My thought and my right. I do not have to agree with the ODNR and don't. Stop trying to conform me to Your way of thinking, not going to happen. I believe there needs to be a balance of all game. What do You think the sharp shooters are doing to the deer in Solon, Ohio and other areas? Thinning the large flocks of turkeys is the exact same thing. With Your way of thinking the turkey population will level out all right and at the same time the deer population will be gone because the flock is not being managed. I grew up with very, very few deer in Ohio, and do not want to see it again. Year after year 125,000 deer starved to death in Pa. Don't think the same can't happen in Ohio.


There is flock control, it's called turkey season. I don't think that the ODNR reintroduced turkeys to help reduce the deer herd. The ODNR used extended seasons and lot's of cheap tags to reduce the deer herd. But if you want to believe what you believe, go for it.


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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Well said Canoe. One would have to think there would be a better herd control method than the mighty Wild Turkey. The massacre that the state allowed was responsible for the decline in numbers; regardless of those that refuse to believe because they still see deer. If you did research you'd see that the numbers mirror that of the Ohio turkey flock. The only thing Chatter got right is the impact coyotes have. In fact, in regard to turkeys, coyotes are thought of as the fourth most impactful predator, behind the raccoon, skunk, and opossum. The common link there, lack of fur trapping and hunting. Here is the recent turkey numbers, and data showing the decline there as well.
*
In total the 2016 four-week spring season saw *16,229 birds taken. Couple that number with the April 16th and 17th youth-only season kill of 1,564 birds and the combined total comes to 17,793 wild turkeys. In 2015 the respective figures were 16,049 and 1,589 for a combined total of *17,638 birds.*

*A further look back shows that the total wild turkey kill was 23,421 birds in 2010 (the highest-ever record spring season turkey kill in Ohio); 18,162 birds in 2011; 17,657 birds in 2012; 18,409 birds in 2013; and 16,568 birds in 2014.*
I know Chatter will say he sees 500 birds in a field daily, but the fact is both turkeys and deer have declined the last 5 years. Man is a bigger detriment to deer than the vicious, and ravenous turkey!


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

supercanoe said:


> There is flock control, it's called turkey season. I don't think that the ODNR reintroduced turkeys to help reduce the deer herd. The ODNR used extended seasons and lot's of cheap tags to reduce the deer herd. But if you want to believe what you believe, go for it.


I am not saying You are wrong in Your thought process. Could You explain how there are flocks with 100 to 300 birds per flock? You are from Columbus, I am in Portage county. To me flocks of this size are way out of proportion to the available habitat in N.E. Ohio. There is only small wood lots to hunt, as a rule. Way too many birds for wood lots of 50 acres or less to be over ran with. I don't understand this one size fits all mentality. I would quit hunting if I had to hunt turkeys, so I have no personal interest in bag limits. Out of three hundred male coworkers only five turkey hunted. One in Portage and 4 brothers in Ashtabula county. Put 300 birds on B&N Coal property in Noble County and it would be a very different story. I only see an ODNR representative in state parks. WHAT am I suppose think other than the DNR screwed me again? Every year bigger flocks and more flocks. The flocks are so big because so few show interest or cannot get access to hunt them for many different reasons.

My wife just said look at wood edge across the road and there is 20 more of them. When does it stop? The patch of woods is behind an open 20 acre field with 3 acres of huntable swamp and about 10 acres of property too dangerous to gun hunt because of houses.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

I don't know what to tell you. I don't see flocks of 100-300 birds. I wish that I had that problem. I live in farm/ wood lot/CRP terrain with very few turkeys right around home. I only see or hear them once in a while. I can drive 5 minutes and see them fairly regularly though.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Chatterbox, I am not a huge fan of turkeys either, I find them to be dumb and intrusive during the fall and winter months but I don't think they have any negative impact on deer populations in any way.

Just from sheer biomass it would take 30 poults or 15 adults to just equal two 150 lb does. There is no evidence, studies or belief by anyone that I can find that support that turkey effect deer in any way. Conversely deer can have a major impact on turkey populations through high densities and over browsing.

Turkey are indigenous to this state, they only became absent through deforestation and market hunting in the early 1900's. Ohio was once 90% forested and by 1907 there was only 7% forested lands left in the state. Today we are around 30% forested. Turkeys are back and they should be.

You can hate the turkeys all you want, your choice, no problem, but you can't attached deer population levels to the presence or absence of the turkey, that thought should be put to roost.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Out of respect for both of You, I will watch the effect of these large flocks longer and study impact more. Both of You have a good evening.


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