# A Question About An Old Gun



## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

I've been doing online research on some of my old guns and I've found some info but I'm also hitting a lot of dead ends. One gun that I'm really having trouble finding info on is a Texas Ranger Mongomery Ward 16 ga. Model 1929. I found that these guns were made by the J. Stevens Company but that's about it. The model 1929 draws a complete blank. Is that the year it was made or the year it was pattended or is it just a model number? Any info on this gun would be great.

I have a few other old guns that maybe someone could share some info on.

A Champion 12 ga. single shot with PATD. APR.2 01 APR.15 02 PATS. PENDING stamped on the barrel. There is no model number or any other markings on the gun.

A Winchester Model 42 .410 ga. pump with 96331 stamped on the bottom of the receiver area.

A J. H. Johnson Great Western Gun Works muzzle loading rifle with made in Pittsburgh PA. stamped on the barrel. There are no other visible markings on the gun. It has a double trigger system and an octagon barrel. I figure it is at least civil war era and may pre date that by several years but its hard to research a gun without a model number or patten on it.

A U. S. Springfield musket with 1864 Stamped on it. Again, I don't know if this is the year the gun was made or pattended or a model number.

Well, if any of you collectors with some good gun books are getting cabin fever I've just given you something that you can do LOL. Any info on any of these guns would be great.


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

If you need some info on these guns, try a search on shotgunworld.com. I check in there every once in a while. Some very knowledgable fellows and ladies over there. Give it a try!


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

rob,let me do some looking in a few books i have and at a couple of internet sites and i'll get back with you.


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## ohiobassman (May 18, 2005)

i dont know much about the other guns but the Winchester model 42 is a keeper. i saw a standard model at a gun shop for close to $3,000. they were based off the model 12 but made specifically for the .410. if yours is in good condition i wouldnt let it go for much less than $2,000.

heres a link:

http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/model42.shtml


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## dakotaman (Oct 19, 2005)

Can't tell you too much w/out more description, but here's what I found. Just from the serial # on the winchester, found that it was manufactured in 1952. The CHampion, I would guess was made by Iver Johnson. They made the Champion between 1909-1956. Barrels length's between 26"-32", in a variety of guages and rifle calibers. Value somewhere between $75-150. all I've been able to find so far...


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

Go to a book store and find a copy of Gun List. It is much like the Shotgun News but the manufacturers are listed in alphabetical order. In the pages you can find almost every gun you have listed.

These folks and businesses are trying to sell these guns and it will give you a realistic figure on what they are worth. That 1864 model springfield was a civil war gun and its value may surprise you.

When I bought and sold guns I used this magazine like a bible and it was as current as could be at it comes out once a month.


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

And keep em coming. Thank you Dakotaman, I couldn't come up with a date on that model 42 to save my life. That gun is a standard grade, 28" barrel, full choke and is as close to mint original condition as any gun that has been hunted with could be. My grandfather used it to hunt squirrels so it was carried out in the big timber rather than brush or swamps. It is a really neat little gun. Bassman, thank you very much for the link and putting some kind of value on that gun. My grandfather passed away several years ago and I could kick myself for not paying more attention to his storys about these guns when I was a kid.

The Champion is an Iver Johnson and I was able to find a question and answer page about this gun. The guy asking the question had the exact same patten dates as my gun. The answer came back that the gun was manufactured between 1900 and 1908. This was a serious turkey shoot gun. The cocking mechanism had been filed down to the point that if you breathe on the trigger it will fire. I guess time and numerous cleanings has worn the Iver Johnson stamp off the sides of the gun but the Champion and patten dates are still visible on the barrel. Something else the question and answer page stated was this gun should be considered black powder only and would not be safe with modern ammo.

Papaperch, My grandfather told me that both the Springfield and the J. H. Johnson were carried in the civil war. He knew who carried them and their entire history and again, I am about suicidal over not remembering the details. One of the guns, I'm not sure which, was carried by a guy named McClung from West Virginia. Doing a search on the name and gun etc, I found a pitcher named Seth McClung for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays from WV. Not that I would ever consider selling these guns but I bet a major league pitcher would be a good buyer LOL.

The 16 gauge Texas Ranger made by J. Stevens for Montgomery Ward is a bizzare gun. It is a single shot with a full choke 36" barrel. From the few articles I've been able to find I'm figuring pre WW2, maybe late 20's early 30's. What would someone have used a 16 ga. with a fully choked 36" barrel for? If you shot a squirrel the thing would explode and why would you use a 16 ga. for goose hunting? A woman's goose gun? A squirrel gun for 1/4 mile shots? The more I research the more confused I get.

Here's one that surprised me. A 1950's Mossberg Bros. 22 target rifle in mint condition with flip up sights. This gun is a model B and bolt action. From what I've read about this gun it isn't worth the cost of the metal and wood used to make it. The gun has a finger notched pistol grip monte carlo stock and it feels so good when you bring it up to fire that you never want to put it down. I guess they must have produced millions of them because I'm seeing an average worth of $100. The fact that it will be my great grandson's favorite target shooter makes it worth a heck of a lot more to me.

A couple more questions then I'll leave it alone. A Hawthorne .22 cal. CO2 pellet gun. The gun is mint. It appears to have a pecan stock. Was Hawthorne a Crossman model or did Crossman buy out Hawthorne or am I totally off on this one? It's a model 180 and every search I've done on it comes up Crossman but I can't find anything about Hawthorne in the article.

The last is an early 70's model Antonio Zoli 20 ga. over under. My grandfather said it was a Silver Snipe edition but I can't find anything on the gun denoting this. I've found tons of Antonio Zoli Silver Snipes online but every one of them is a 12 ga. The gun features a 28" vent ribbed barrel and fantastic scroll work. There are so many versions of the Zoli name out there that I get millions of hits whenever I do a search but I'm yet to find a 20 ga. Silver Snipe on any of them.

I'm sorry for taking up anyone's time with this stuff but I know I've got cabin fever and am having fun trying to find info. I do wish someone would put those high priced gun value and info books out of business by putting it all online. With all of the interest in the subject imagine what advertisers would pay to have their banner on that site. Oops, there goes another million dollar idea out the window


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## Row v. Wade (Apr 27, 2004)

Is the muzzle loader J. H. Johnson or Johnston?
I have a Pennsylvania-Kentucky rifle book that mentions J. H. Johnston as a craftsman. 
Nothing under Johnson though.


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes Row, it is a J. H. Johnston. Thanks for correcting that. When you get old the mind goes first quickly followed by the vision and hearing. I'm just surprised it took the vision and hearing this long to get caught up


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## Row v. Wade (Apr 27, 2004)

ChardonRob said:


> When you get old the mind goes first


"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful." J. Danforth "Dan" Quayle missing terribly on "A mind is a terrible thing to waste"  

You can do a google search on JH Johnston and come up with a ton of information.


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

LOL Row, Yeah I've been on Google so much over the last three days that I'm confused as to the names stamped on the guns. I saw a ton of J. H. Johnston guns for sale but I didn't find much about the history. I don't know, maybe it was just past nap time at the nursing home. That darn 16 ga. is what is getting to me. The fact that it is called a Texas Ranger brings me 3 or 4 hits close to actually being about the gun then a few million hits about Texas Rangers. If I leave Texas Ranger out of the search I get everything that Montgomery Ward has ever sold since 1900 except the gun. Thanks for your input, the nurse is coming with my pills now so I have to go. They really need to add a sleepy icon to the smilies.


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Chardon.... Do a search on www.gunbroker.com and put it on the forums there. I remember reading something about that gun a year or 2 ago. I like the older Stevens guns. I really like the old .410s like the Model 59A. They normally dont resale for a whole lot though on the adverage. I'd love to see a pic of the Winchester .410


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

I decided to give it one more try before nap time and found all of the info I needed on the Montgomery Ward Texas Ranger at http://armscollectors.com/forum.htm No collectors value, bummer. You'd think that a gun that hard to find info on would at least be rare? Hey, now I can go and shoot the gun without having to worry about it. And as soon as I figure out what to shoot a 16 ga. full choke with a 36" barrel at that's just what I'll do.

That model 42 Winchester seems to spark a lot of interest around the internet. I've seen the standard grade selling for as much as $1600 and it didn't look perfect. The only blemish I can see on mine is the blueing is slightly worn around the slide. Heck, I've bought new guns where that was the case.

I guess I'm going to be forced to come in contact with my wife so I can post some pics. The digital camera is hers and god only knows where she put it. I'll get some pics up in the next day or two. Thanks to everyone again!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

the model 42 should be worth somewhere around there.

mike,this one's for you.bid started at $1400..............vgxx condition.

rob,you should be able to reach out and touch some tree rats with that 16 
with that barrel length,it might have been intended for knocking ducks down.


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Not a bad looking little gun. I'll post pics of my .410 when I get home. Its a Stevens model 59 A... I also found a 59B which I may try and get at some point. The 16 ga also sounds pretty nifty. I had a mid 70s Remington 1100 .410 light weight edition. Only problem is that it was an Improved Cylinder which wasnt posted. Neat neat gun but shot like crap. I'll get another some day. I also like the 28 gauges they are neat guns too.


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

Okay, lets try this again. Here are some pics..... maybe.























































I posted a bunch more pics in my photo gallery.


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

rob,in all of the looking around that i did i didn't come up with much more than anyone else.i looked in the 18th edition of the gun traders guide,on several internet sites and on www.gunsamerica.com
the montgomery ward:couldn't find anything about their shotguns,just rifles.

the champion:i found a couple on gunsamerica but the price was only around $150-$300

the winchester:designed by william roemer,produced from 1933-1963,there were around 16,000 produced,and the prices i saw went anywhere from $1,500-$6,500 depending on the model and it's condition

jh johnston:i've only been able to find one and it's probably not the same model.a bench rest target rifle w/ dolphin hammer,vernier tang sight,brass butt plate and trim,and the price of it was $995

springfield:i was only able to find several dated 1864 but none had the shorter forearm stock.with some more research you should be able to find alot more about this musket.i'm gonna keep looking on this one,it's got my curiosity up!

don't quit looking around though,with all of the information that's out there you'll be able to find more on all of them.
my father left me an old remington rolling block that i thought wasn't worth more than several hundred dollars,until i researched it and found out that it was one of the rarer models and was worth quite a bit more.so you really never know what they're worth until you learn about them.this internet makes it alot nicer!!!!!!


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you very very much for the reply Jeffmo. You are right, I find out new info about the guns every day. I did find that the Montgomery Ward Texas Ranger sells for about the same now as it did 75 years ago. This amazes me since it is so hard to find any info or records of these guns. I will say that every thing I've found on this gun relates to 12 gauge rather than 16 gauge so who knows. As far as I'm concerned I have the only one on the planet until I hear something different.

The Springfield is still a question mark. I have looked at hundreds of pictures of 1864 Springfields and have seen nothing that resembles mine. Heck I've looked at hundreds of pics of every 1864 gun and nothing looks like mine. Although the gun has nothing obvious showing this, I am begining to think it may have been modified. However the stock and the forearm piece match exactly and the stock looks like every other Spingfield from that era.

The J H Johnston is still a mystery too. I find a little info here and there on Great Western Gun Works but nothing that shows any useful pics or descriptions. I did find one in an auction that was going for $1700 but there was no pic. I have no idea if it was close to the same model.

The Winchester 42 has returned the best results. When I was a kid I couldn't understand why that was my grandfathers favorite gun when he had much larger and nicer guns. Now I get it. 

I know I could take these guns to an expert somewhere and they'd set me straight in about 5 minutes but that would ruin the fun. Thank you for your help and interest.


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## catfishrich (Jul 14, 2005)

ChardonRob said:


> The 16 gauge Texas Ranger made by J. Stevens for Montgomery Ward is a bizzare gun. It is a single shot with a full choke 36" barrel. From the few articles I've been able to find I'm figuring pre WW2, maybe late 20's early 30's. What would someone have used a 16 ga. with a fully choked 36" barrel for? If you shot a squirrel the thing would explode and why would you use a 16 ga. for goose hunting? A woman's goose gun? A squirrel gun for 1/4 mile shots? The more I research the more confused I get.


I can't help much on the gun, but I can tell you a little about the 16 ga. 16 ga. is the best performing or most efishent (spelling?) ga. of a shotgun from balistics IE: tube diameter, charge, shot weight etc. It's well liked and heavly used over in Europe, it just never cought on here in the states. 16 has less kick than a 12ga but closely matches performance, the 12 has more behind it and more people use it "bigger is better". My thought is someone bought that gun for ducks or Goose but was kick shy and didn't want the 12ga. Back in the era it was made you could use lead shot and bring a bird down with a smaller ga., now everyone uses a large ga. because of steel shot. (I have killed Turkey in flight with a 20 ga.) and as far as blowing up a Squirrel no it wont unless you 5 feet from it per-say, I use a 12 ga to Squirrel hunt with. My first gun was a 16 ga. I hunted everything with it, it a Sears J.C. Higgens bolt action,not realy worth anything and I still have it. Ill give it to my boy for his first gun.

Good luck finding you info and shoot them, thats what they where made to do.....


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## saugeyesam (Apr 20, 2004)

i did some asking with a couple of old timers that i know one who has a texas ranger 16 guage it was meant to be used as a service shot gun but fell by the way side rather quickly on acount of the pumps and autos of the time however this gun according to my source , was a tough one to beat when it came to turkey shoots for money or any variety prizes im told that that 36 inc barrel holds a mean pattern to about 45 yards and after that its still pretty good , im told it 's recoil belts ya pretty good with a medium to heavy game load , i hope this helps a little those are some nice looking guns by the way they look well cared for !


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## ChardonRob (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the replies guys. As for the 36" barrel holding a pattern I have a story about a bet and a buddies pickup truck sitting a long ways away but I really don't want to put anything in print. I wouldn't want old court cases to be reopened but the gun does have glass breaking power at quite a long distance


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