# where have the fall run steelhead gone?



## gotfish??

I am an astabula resident and have been blessed to be a stones throw from some of the best stream fishing for many years. 20 fish days used to be more common than not. The past few years, I've noticed, your lucky to get off the river with a few fish for the day. I'm talking about ne ohio here not the pa fishery. Can anyone shed some educated light as to why the numbers are down latley. Is the dnr stocking only the london strain? No. More manisties? Are the total stocked numbers way down?


----------



## BigDaddy300

The Londons loaded the rivers in the fall. They stock Manistees now and in a few months they will be coming in full force to spawn. Still plenty of fish in the rivers now.


----------



## Lundfish

BigDaddy300 said:


> The Londons loaded the rivers in the fall. They stock Manistees now and in a few months they will be coming in full force to spawn. Still plenty of fish in the rivers now.


I was thinking that the only thing stocked were the Manistees. Where is the info on how these two strains differ in appearance and otherwise?


----------



## Fishman

Was searching google for information on this and found this post from 2008 with a reply from ODNR.

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?p=572396


----------



## Lundfish

I thought that the fish I've been getting are Manistees. They look identical to what I catch in the UP. Although the DNR guy said that they can vary in appearance even within the same strain.


----------



## CARL510ISLE

Not everybody can expect to catch 20 steelhead or more regularly. All catching 20 steelhead or more regularly does is bring more people and pressure to the streams. Simply put the demand has finally caught up with the supply. Get over it already; fish harder or quit. 

C510I


----------



## Chef T

BigDaddy300 said:


> The Londons loaded the rivers in the fall. They stock Manistees now and in a few months they will be coming in full force to spawn. Still plenty of fish in the rivers now.


Londons are no longer stocked by ODNR for our steelhead fishery. Those were good times though, but the difference in the Londons and Manistee were very noticeable.
PA fish aka "The Clones" do have varied genetics though. They have some London, Skamania, Ganaraskas, and now Manistee. Since they harvest and spawn their stock according to maturity of the females, you end up with the PA strain, lol. 
Maybe after the expansion of Castilia Hathery, we can plan of making our own OH strain and mix the genetics a bit so the timing is more spread out.


----------



## Lundfish

I'm still wanting to catch a natural reproducing "Brule" out of Lake Superior! They don't get as big but I'm sure that a 6 pounder can fight well!


----------



## FISHIN216

CARL510ISLE said:


> Not everybody can expect to catch 20 steelhead or more regularly. All catching 20 steelhead or more regularly does is bring more people and pressure to the streams. Simply put the demand has finally caught up with the supply. Get over it already; fish harder or quit.
> 
> C510I


Nice....i agree

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## silverbullets

I went to college in Wisconsin and fished the Brule quite a few times. The fish do fight awesome up there, and the style of fishing up there is fun and the landscape is awesome. The big browns are fun to catch up there too


_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors._


----------



## LilSiman/Medina

I know very little about steelhead but what are the "strains" aka "Manistee and London" named after? Where they were brought from? I just think its interesting about all this stuff.


----------



## Lundfish

LilSiman/Medina said:


> I know very little about steelhead but what are the "strains" aka "Manistee and London" named after? Where they were brought from? I just think its interesting about all this stuff.


The Manistee strain is originally from California. It was raised quite successfully in the Little Manistee River in MI with successful natural reproduction. Ohio and Michigan DNR work together to get this strain in Ohio. I know this because I read it in a book called Great Lakes Steelhead.

The London strain is named after the London fish hatchery in Ohio. I know this because I read a link on this site earlier today. I don't know what strain that it is originally derived from.


----------



## LilSiman/Medina

Ok so its pretty much just nicknames for the strain.


----------



## steelie4u

gotfish?? said:


> I am an astabula resident and have been blessed to be a stones throw from some of the best stream fishing for many years. 20 fish days used to be more common than not. The past few years, I've noticed, your lucky to get off the river with a few fish for the day. I'm talking about ne ohio here not the pa fishery. Can anyone shed some educated light as to why the numbers are down latley. Is the dnr stocking only the london strain? No. More manisties? Are the total stocked numbers way down?


There are LOTS of fish in the rivers, with all the rain we had and have been having they moved right on up river to upper stretches, thats where we have been getting them for weeks. Ohio runs get better as the year progresses toward spring. PA already has LOTS of dropbacks for their big runs are about over.


----------



## Steel Cranium

Lundfish said:


> I was thinking that the only thing stocked were the Manistees. Where is the info on how these two strains differ in appearance and otherwise?


Lots of different strains stocked in the great lakes, especially by PA and NY. You have to also add some of the non-steelhead strains that are stocked by organizations like the Cleveland Metroparks each spring. These fish make it out to the lake and may return somewhere. I have caught a few golden rainbows (stocked in Hinkley) in the middle and lower part of the rocky in the spring as well as a few in some smaller streams in the fall as larger fish.

If you want to see some of the strains and numbers, browse around here a while: http://www.glfc.org/fishstocking/rangesearch.htm

Ohio DNR doesn't seem to contribute to the database past 2000 or so, but you can assume the typical 300k or so Manistee strain stocked across the five major watersheds. Michican also stocks Manistee in the Huron (MI) river. Look in the late 1990s to see where the Londons ended and were taken over by the Manistees. Some records of salmon, browns, and even some brook trout stocked in the late 1980s as well.

http://www.glfc.org/fishstocking/exresults.php?la=ER&agy=OHDOW&stpr=OH&s=150


----------



## GobyOneGnoby

He may have something to do with it.


----------



## BigDaddy300

Chef T said:


> Londons are no longer stocked by ODNR for our steelhead fishery. Those were good times though, but the difference in the Londons and Manistee were very noticeable.
> PA fish aka "The Clones" do have varied genetics though. They have some London, Skamania, Ganaraskas, and now Manistee. Since they harvest and spawn their stock according to maturity of the females, you end up with the PA strain, lol.
> Maybe after the expansion of Castilia Hathery, we can plan of making our own OH strain and mix the genetics a bit so the timing is more spread out.


Yes I know that. I was referring to when they used to stock Londons. Lots of early fall fish back then. Good times indeed.


----------



## steelheader007

How many fish do you folks think your supposed to catch during any giving outing? I only hope to hook and land one everything after that is a blessing!


----------



## RiverDoc

steelheader007 said:


> How many fish do you folks think your supposed to catch during any giving outing? I only hope to hook and land one everything after that is a blessing!


I occasionally share a bank with guys that make it a numbers game. They forget why they are there. Sometimes it's fun just to watch a float and forget about things.


----------



## brodg

steelheader007 said:


> How many fish do you folks think your supposed to catch during any giving outing? I only hope to hook and land one everything after that is a blessing!


+1, 1 fish is a good day.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Mepps3

Steel Cranium said:


> Lots of different strains stocked in the great lakes, especially by PA and NY. You have to also add some of the non-steelhead strains that are stocked by organizations like the Cleveland Metroparks each spring. These fish make it out to the lake and may return somewhere. I have caught a few golden rainbows (stocked in Hinkley) in the middle and lower part of the rocky in the spring as well as a few in some smaller streams in the fall as larger fish.
> 
> If you want to see some of the strains and numbers, browse around here a while: http://www.glfc.org/fishstocking/rangesearch.htm
> 
> Ohio DNR doesn't seem to contribute to the database past 2000 or so, but you can assume the typical 300k or so Manistee strain stocked across the five major watersheds. Michican also stocks Manistee in the Huron (MI) river. Look in the late 1990s to see where the Londons ended and were taken over by the Manistees. Some records of salmon, browns, and even some brook trout stocked in the late 1980s as well.
> 
> http://www.glfc.org/fishstocking/exresults.php?la=ER&agy=OHDOW&stpr=OH&s=150


According to the ODNR they stocked half or less in 2011. Scroll down this link and you will see the numbers. 
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/6166/Default.aspx


----------



## steelheader007

Mepps3 said:


> According to the ODNR they stocked half or less in 2011. Scroll down this link and you will see the numbers.
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/6166/Default.aspx


I love that they stocked less fish, but why have they stocked less fish? Is stocking down due to funds?


----------



## Mepps3

steelheader007 said:


> I love that they stocked less fish, but why have they stocked less fish? Is stocking down due to funds?


I heard Michigan had some kind of problem and it affected the amount.


----------



## steelheader007

Mepps3 said:


> I heard Michigan had some kind of problem and it affected the amount.


dont we raise our own or we still selling catfish for steelhead?..lol..


----------



## Lundfish

steelheader007 said:


> I love that they stocked less fish, but why have they stocked less fish? Is stocking down due to funds?


It's because of the renovation of the hatchery in Castalia.


----------



## Mepps3

steelheader007 said:


> dont we raise our own or we still selling catfish for steelhead?..lol..


Was still under renovation last spring and this fall.

http://www.ohiodnr.com/home_page/Ne...y-Renovation-Reduces-Fall-Trout-Stocking.aspx


----------



## Chef T

Mepps3 said:


> Was still under renovation last spring and this fall.
> 
> http://www.ohiodnr.com/home_page/Ne...y-Renovation-Reduces-Fall-Trout-Stocking.aspx


Gonna be well worth it! We will have the opportunity to become self sufficient. Maybe we can turn Cold Creek into our "Trout Run" and gather our own eggs and develop the OH strain,lol. Throw in some Ontario strain lake run Brownies and the good ol' days will be yet to come..


----------



## nforkoutfitters

steelheader007 said:


> how many fish do you folks think your supposed to catch during any giving outing? I only hope to hook and land one everything after that is a blessing!


+500000000!


----------



## gotfish??

gotfish?? said:


> I am an astabula resident and have been blessed to be a stones throw from some of the best stream fishing for many years. 20 fish days used to be more common than not. The past few years, I've noticed, your lucky to get off the river with a few fish for the day. I'm talking about ne ohio here not the pa fishery. Can anyone shed some educated light as to why the numbers are down latley. Is the dnr stocking only the london strain? No. More manisties? Are the total stocked numbers way down?


Just revisited my post and want to say thanks to all for the feedback. It was,as anticipated,educational. I'll even try to take something positive from those who felt a lecture was in order regarding my greed. I too find enjoyement from simply being on the stream. Being only a few miles away alows me to chose "prime" conditions to hit the water so maybe I've gotten spoiled a bit over the years. Guess I'll get over it and fish harder


----------



## BrianSipe17

Guess I'll get over it and fish harder

Very classy rebuttal... the statements by all of the "high and mighty" are not required on this board.


----------



## Mepps3

BrianSipe17 said:


> Guess I'll get over it and fish harder
> 
> Very classy rebuttal... the statements by all of the "high and mighty" are not required on this board.



Good read on the past numbers of steelhead to present numbers by John Nagy.

http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/08/19/steelhead-alley-fall-forecast/


----------



## Ry440

Do you think if they raised the price of fishing licenses we would be able to get more trout? I would be willing to pay 60 bucks (instead of 20). I mean think about how much money we all spend on tackle, gear, and gas. 60 bucks is nothing. Or maybe if they stopped buying all the rangers new dodge chargers there'd be more money for the program lol


----------



## reo

Mepps3 said:


> Good read on the past numbers of steelhead to present numbers by John Nagy.
> 
> http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/08/19/steelhead-alley-fall-forecast/


Less or smaller fish being stocked probably a factor. The science certianly shows an increase in the sea lamprey population is probably a factor.

A recent spike in walleye population....... Ummmm, the walleye population is among its lowest in a very long time. Overall a good read though. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## therockgj

Ry440 said:


> Do you think if they raised the price of fishing licenses we would be able to get more trout? I would be willing to pay 60 bucks (instead of 20). I mean think about how much money we all spend on tackle, gear, and gas. 60 bucks is nothing. Or maybe if they stopped buying all the rangers new dodge chargers there'd be more money for the program lol


I have been thinking the same, only in the form of a trout stamp of some sort. People that never fish for Steelhead shouldnt have to pay extra for a license....(even though they probably already do to some degree...)


----------



## phishyone1

Or maybe change bag limits to one per day.. Also maybe no taking of fish at all after March 1st, onece on redds....... I understand it is a put and take fishery, but it may equal a few more fish, or a better chance at a trophy.. Just food for thought.........


----------



## mkormos23

Walleye stocks are low in 2011, but that 2003 hatch put 40 million fish into the system. So in 2006-2010 they were at prime trout eating size and in those years we had a large walleye population and great fishing.

Used to do good walleye fishing on trout colored F-18's at night at the month of Elk creek in spring, back when I fished PA.

Pretty sure Ohio is allowed to stock anymore fish than we already do. Stocking #'s are not up to Ohio alone to decide.

Matt


----------



## Patricio

Ry440 said:


> Do you think if they raised the price of fishing licenses we would be able to get more trout? l


they stock waaay too many as it is.


----------



## Steelhead Fever

Also maybe no taking of fish at all after March 1st, onece on redds....... I understand it is a put and take fishery, but it may equal a few more fish, or a better chance at a trophy.. Just food for thought.........[/QUOTE]

I dont think it would do anything noticeable, but will definitely increase the chance at more bigger fish. I believe thats why we have seen a lot of nice fish this year-we had a lot of water last spring, which means less fish got beat up.

On a side note, has anyone noticed a lot of skippers??


----------



## fishinnick

How about C&R all fish say 20in or less? I have seen LOTS of skippers on stringers this year........


----------



## reo

mkormos23 said:


> Walleye stocks are low in 2011, but that 2003 hatch put 40 million fish into the system. So in 2006-2010 they were at prime trout eating size and in those years we had a large walleye population and great fishing.
> 
> Used to do good walleye fishing on trout colored F-18's at night at the month of Elk creek in spring, back when I fished PA.
> 
> Pretty sure Ohio is allowed to stock anymore fish than we already do. Stocking #'s are not up to Ohio alone to decide.
> 
> Matt


Catch-able size walleye numbers have been on the decline since 2006. That is not a "recent spike" in population to me, as the article states. I am a walleye fisherman and will agree that rainbow trout stick baits are hot in the spring. Why the state stocks smolts at the very time that post spawn eyes headed east and are prowling the shoreline feeding heavily has always baffled me. All I was trying to say is that walleye predation as far as numbers of walleye goes does not make sense. There were far more walleyes five years ago, steelhead catch rates were through the roof up until the last two years when they should have been eaten by hungry walleyes as smolts.


----------



## gotfish??

BrianSipe17 said:


> Guess I'll get over it and fish harder
> 
> Very classy rebuttal... the statements by all of the "high and mighty" are not required on this board.


Thanks Sipe17... sure do miss the "cardiac kids"


----------



## Steelhead Fever

fishinnick said:


> How about C&R all fish say 20in or less? I have seen LOTS of skippers on stringers this year........


i have brought this up before, but i truly believe a slot limit would HELP A TON

You have the smaller fish going back to grow, the medium will be repeat spawners, and the bigger ones that dont have a huge chance to survive longer can be kept.......


----------



## CARL510ISLE

Predation and lampreys are probably the most reasonable explanation along with simply alot better educated fishermen fishing for basically a finite resource and the catches just being more distributed among more fishermen.

Interestingly this fall the far eastern tribs have had less fish than the western tribs. Sure there were plenty of early season PA fish, but lately there just haven't been the typical numbers running compared to years past. Rocky on the other hand has had simply some outstanding runs of fish as new bright and big fish have been running nearly every rise in water since early September. Perhaps the PA strains are suffering worse than our Manistee strain and due to their genetics maybe they're more prown to predation and lampreys. 

All in all I think it's been a great fall with fish spreadout everywhere through all the systems and many of them utilizing the whole river and not the overly obvious spots.

If it stays exactly like it has been this year,it's hard to argue that we still don't have a simply incredible manmade fishery.

C510I


----------



## FISHIN216

CARL510ISLE said:


> Predation and lampreys are probably the most reasonable explanation along with simply alot better educated fishermen fishing for basically a finite resource and the catches just being more distributed among more fishermen.
> 
> Interestingly this fall the far eastern tribs have had less fish than the western tribs. Sure there were plenty of early season PA fish, but lately there just haven't been the typical numbers running compared to years past. Rocky on the other hand has had simply some outstanding runs of fish as new bright and big fish have been running nearly every rise in water since early September. Perhaps the PA strains are suffering worse than our Manistee strain and due to their genetics maybe they're more prown to predation and lampreys.
> 
> All in all I think it's been a great fall with fish spreadout everywhere through all the systems and many of them utilizing the whole river and not the overly obvious spots.
> 
> If it stays exactly like it has been this year,it's hard to argue that we still don't have a simply incredible manmade fishery.
> 
> C510I


The Rocky has always been my home river. But I have fallen in love with it....lately its been unbelievable. What a blessing to be so close to a gem like that

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------

