# Lining up vanes with broadheads



## Drew318 (Mar 25, 2010)

I was telling a guy who has been bow hunting longer than I have been alive the other day about wanting to use muzzy broad heads this year. He told me to make sure the blades are lined up with the vanes. This was the first time I heard about doing this, so I did a search on google and found a lot of guys saying it doesn't matter and a few guys saying it does. I just want to get some opinions from you guys?

Thanks

Drew


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

It's completely pointless.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Put me in for a vote of "pointless" as well. No pun intended.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

No difference in flight or impact point at bowhunting yardages.

If you were trying to shoot an arrow 1000 yds it MAY have some influence, but I would have to see it to believe it.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I think it is much more important that the broadhead is straight and balanced in respect to the arrow itself. And at the same time the vanes or feathers should be symmetrically aligned with the arrow. Both of these aspects will help maintain proper arrow balance. Either of these being incorrect could have an influence on the arrow flight but both independent of each other. The balancing of the broadhead is by far the largest factor of the two. If it is not properly centered and balanced it will give arrow flight that is quite different from that of the same arrow with a field tip of same weight.

A properly tuned bow is also crucial and will mask and/or magnify any arrow issues.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

ill be the one to say its not pointless. there is times i have aligned blade and fletching to increase accuracy. i found this to be true with thunderheads. many times ill shoot a 5" group at 35 yards with thunder heads out of the box. i would rather tune my arrows then disturb my bow setup. after tuning and many times just aligning blades to vanes my arrows will be touching at 35 yards. this is what works for me and thats all that is important. i currently have 13 bows and once setup i dont like to change anything.

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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I have shot muzzy broadheards for many many years and I have always "tuned" them. The vanes should be split between the blades or in between if that makes sense. This has always been done with paper and makes a big difference for me. I guess I'm in the minority on this one. It's pretty easy to see the benefit if you are tuning the bow with paper for me. A fantastic broadhead for sure.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

By turning the broadhead to align it with the fletching in some manner you are also affecting the alignment with the arrow itself. When I have to mess with aligning a broadhead that is out of balance I rotate it as well, checking to see that it spins true. The only difference is that I give no consideration to the orientation to the fletching. Once it is balanced it stays there. 

Ostbucks98,
I think you may get the award for the most bows. How can you possibly ever find time to shoot that many bows?!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

bkr43050 said:


> By turning the broadhead to align it with the fletching in some manner you are also affecting the alignment with the arrow itself.


Bingo. Spinning the broadhead/insert within the shaft to get the fletchings aligned also works at aligning the broadhead to the arrow shaft. While it appears that lining up the fletchings is making the difference, it's trueing up the broadhead that's actually making the difference.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

ostbucks,

Do what makes you the most confident but fletch alignment has zero impact on arrow flight or grouping. The balance of the arrow, spine, percent forward weight, broadhead balance, bow tune, string harmonics, fletch shape size and helical, etc, etc, etc. all can effect flight and grouping but not the fletch orientation to the broad head blades. 

I used to shoot a little bit also

Read this from previous years.

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=58214&highlight=fletch+allignment


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## Drew318 (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks for all your replies. I think the best thing for me to do is both, and figure out what works best for me. Or just stick with the 2 blade rage 


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## Cajunsaugeye (Apr 9, 2013)

I personally would not" stick with the 2blade rage".They have SERIOUS penetration problems when the hit isn't perfect.I've seen it a few times w/my brother using them.I made a switch from muzzy to Slick tricks.I may love them just as much! Muzzys are the perfect broadband for bows shooting under 290fps.Over that,they do get temperamental.w/my Hoyt they just wouldn't group well at just over 300fps.Slick tricks solved that problem easily.Four blades,great flight,Cheap.That's what you want to shoot if you're over 300fps.And also,yes as others stated,get that bow tuned right.You can easily do it yourself.And don't shoot too light an arrow.Speed isn't all its cracked up to be.Lastly,contrary to popular belief,Fixed blade broadheads are FAR better than expandables.Expandables are yet another crutch for lazys of today's world who don't wanna take the hr. to get their bow shooting correctly.IMO.

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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Why is there fletching on an arrow, why have it there at all?

Fletching is there to provide stabile flight. How does it accomplish that task? By imparting rotation on the arrow. The rifling in a gun barrel provides the same stabilization through rotation on a bullet that fletching does on a arrow. A bullet shot out of a smooth bore gun will be totally dependent on the bullet shape and aerodynamics to determine its flight and more importantly the consistency of flight from one to the next. That is why the old rifled shotgun deer slugs have the rifling on the slug itself and it designed for smoothbore barrels.

The fletch is there to control stabilization. To do so it must be able to provide the largest factor of control. Any influence in flight a broadhead might impart MUST be over ridden by the control influence of the fletch. If you doubt this go and shot your 2 bladed rage at 20 yds with no fletch on the arrow at all if you dare.

There are fixed 2 blade, 3, 4 even 5 blade broadheads. Does this mean that if you are shooting a 4 or 5 blade broadhead that you need 4 or 5 fletching on your arrow? Of course not. You just need enough fletch, with enough control surface area, to be the primary controlling influence of arrow flight. Bigger fixed blade broadheads require more fletch than smaller fixed blade broadheads. This is also why fixed blades were vented years ago. They used to all be solid blades.

Why did expandable broadheads become so popular many years ago when they became legal in Ohio? Was it because they are better at killing a deer than a fixed blade broadhead? In most cases the answer is no, in some cases it is a big no. They became popular because the reduced profile of the broadhead made it possible to obtain flight out of a poorly tuned bow and badly balanced arrow. That is still the primary reason, in my mind for the popularity today. I'm sure you have heard many say that the rage, or substitute any brand you want, fly just like my field points. What that is really saying is my arrows and bow are setup so poorly that the only broadhead I can get to fly are the ones with the least control influence. They serve to mask other issues.

If anyone thinks that the alignment of the fletch with the broadhead blade has any noticeable or measurable effect on arrow flight or impact point at bowhunting yardages has much bigger bow knowledge issues than fletch alignment, but if it makes someone more confident in making the shot, go for it, if all else is equal.


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## ohiobuckhunter (Aug 30, 2012)

Do you shoot open hand or closed hand????
Like blade alignment to the vane it doesn't matter all that much. Take the time to test the flight of each broad head with your arrows and find the combo that works best. With epoxy there is no way to balance the broad head properly, but you may find that perfect combo by experimenting. 
I shot muzzy 100's and 125's for years and with each season found my success in the field was linked to my success on the range. Keep your shots within your comfort range, find the arrow/broad head mate and most importantly do what works for you. 

I now shoot the Rage 2 blades. I'm not all that lazy! I still "tune" my bow and my arrows, I still practice just as much and I have never had any issues with them not doing what they were sent off to do. I had shoulder surgery that limits me to only 53 pounds draw on my Mathews Z7. At 25 yards I can group 3 arrows less than 1.5 inches - thats my comfort. I don't shoot farther and I wait when I can for a closer shot, but always broadside or quarter away shots with heart/lung opportunities. 

Have fun and find what works. That's what it's about and what will make you and your equipment more accurate. 



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## Cajunsaugeye (Apr 9, 2013)

Lundy,that's what I meant by rages being a crutch for the lazys.People don't wanna take the 20 mins of research time and 1/2 hr to hr to get their bow tuned to whatever they're shooting.I personally,HUGELY favor fixed blades over expandables.Does it require a bit more" fine tuning"? Definitely.Is it worth it? ABSOLUTELY! Most people w/the best new bow out there,shooting expandables will not out shoot me at 50-60Yds w/my' 09 alphamax and fixed blades.I'm not bragging,just saying my bow is tuned and practiced with.There's NO substitute for that.And just a side note,bows are gonna have to get A LOT better for anyone to get that Alphamax away from me.Comfy,smooth,quiet,shock free,shooting my 420gr arrows at 302 fps and I can pick boogers out of deers noses at 40yds w/that thing if I want.

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## Cajunsaugeye (Apr 9, 2013)

ohiobuckhunteri have no doubt you aren't lazy.And not trying to group RAGE users as such.They have been proven,to me anyways,by people I've seen making marginal shots ad getting NO penetration.I've had really good success w/muzzys and now Slick tricks and have much more confidence if I would happen to not correctly place an arrow.ANY arrow when hitting the" boiler room",shot from modern compounds will most likely blow clear through a deer or at least,get more than adequate penetration.On" marginal hits" I want a strong fixed blade.Easily put,if punching through a shoulder,if that's where ones arrow ends up going,Those rages,spitfires ,etc do about as much good as a marshmallow on the end of an arrow.That's just not acceptable.I've yet to personally smash a shoulder but I've seen it done w/expandables and w/muzzys.I want the fixed blade,period.Again,this is jmo,shoot what YOU have confidence in,just don't let that" confidence come from being easy only.And ohiobuckhunter,w/ your tuning,practice and limited range,screw a slick trick on the end for a few practice sessions.I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.And you'll save some money too!

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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I am NOT saying bowhunters are lazy at all!

I am saying that it is difficult to obtain the knowledge today necessary to properly tune a bow much less an arrow and the vast majority of hunters walk in the big box stores and pick up some arrows and broadheads, put them together and either practice a little of hit the woods.

These same guys that purchased some fixed blade broadhead get flight all over the place and wonder why. They ask their buddy that tells them to try and expandandable and it "shoot like your field points" they try and it works better for them and they are done. They haven't fixed anything the reduced the influence of the problem.

Where should these guys go to get information and learn? There are not many resources available to them. I'm hopeful that most would take the take and expend the energy to get their bow setup perfect if they knew how to do it. You can't fix what you don't know it's broken.

Read the forums on this site and every other site this fall. It makes me sad at the number of lost and wounded deer threads. Some of it is obvious hunter error either through lack of knowledge and understanding or a lack of caring. Others are equipment and expertise issues.

There is so much emphasis on speed, speed, speed these days. Speed is used much in the same way expandables are used. We have a lot more hunters in the woods today that are bowshooters than we have bowhunters


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Great info Lundy!


Lundy said:


> There is so much emphasis on speed, speed, speed these days. Speed is used much in the same way expandables are used. We have a lot more hunters in the woods today that are bowshooters than we have bowhunters


I honestly have no idea what speed my bow shoots and don't really care. I know that it is fast enough to get an arrow to the spot in time to make the kill. Penetration is not an issue with any modern compound bows on properly placed shots so speed is immaterial to me. I am shooting somewhere around 58# draw which keeps my bow comfortable to shoot. I know a lot of guys who will crank their bow up to 65 or 75# because that is what the bow can do. That is great if you can draw it comfortably and hold it steady...and I am not just talking about doing it at the bow range but more importantly after sitting in a sold tree stand for a few hours!


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## billk (Feb 2, 2008)

+1 on Slick Tricks.

Also agree with squaring the end of the arrow shaft and then squaring the face of the insert after glueing into the shaft.

At higher speeds of todays bows it defintely make a difference.

3D shoot last weekend - shot 139/150 on front half. Back half dropped a shot low and clipped the metal conduit inside the bears leg. After that, about half my shots were missing just slightly off the mark. Ended up with a 123 on the back half. Chalked it up to being tired.
Got home and found that the threaded shaft on field tip of the arrow I was shooting was bent. Squared the insert and replaced the tip. Shot 136/150 on our league Wednesday night using the same arrow.

Bottom line - Even an off-balanced field tip will fly off the mark.

My .02 on expandables. Ever notice the pros on TV shooting these monster bucks? One expandable after another. Almost zero pass-thrus as well. Seems like the expandables eat up so much kinetic energy opening up that they don't penetrate enough to pass thru. Seems to me that if you need a blood trail (not every hit is perfect), why take the chance of leaving the one entrance hole plugged up with an arrow? Arrows kill by creating catastrophic rapid blood loss, so I want two holes and an arrow I can examine to determine the type of hit. For my money - that means a fixed blade broadhead.

Learn to tune your bow, know your limits, and keep the heads sharp.


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## britton1989 (Feb 14, 2010)

i will be the odd one out.. i shoot a Hoyt spider 30. I am also on the pro staff for a TV hunting show.. i have had my bow tuned to perfection.. i shoot rage. i can shoot any broad head i want but i choose rage because there is more advantages to using rage in my opinion than using cut on contacts. i have heard people saying there is a problem with penetration but i have never had an issue. i have shot over 20 deer with rage ranging from 10 to 50 yards and get 90 percent pass through s.. yet to see a reason not shoot rage.. giant entry and exit wounds.. wholes you can stick your hand in.. blood trail a blind man can follow.. don't listen to here say.. use them and see what you think but i know you will like them.. you ever seen a cut on contact that puts 2.5 inch holes? i feel it is important to not label all people who use rage as uninformed bow hunters.. you fail to realize that yes you might get more penetration with cut on contact but how far do you want to pass through deer? with proper shot placement any broad head will work.. Ive shot muzzy, thunderhead,rage, shock wave mechanical s and let me tell you that every broad head i have used has problems with being bent. i spin test all broad heads and all i have seen have had a couple that are not straight... therefor it doesn't matter how great you're bow is tuned that broad head wont fly straight on any arrow or any bow... impossible... but i don't label them as bad broad heads.. i agree broad heads do not need to be aligned with vanes, but the things you need to pay attention to are the straightness guarantee of arrows. make sure you buy name brand inserts cause insert can not be threaded straight... bow must be paper tuned and center shot checked.. broad head must be spin tested before shooting... these are the biggest things that need to be addressed..


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## Cajunsaugeye (Apr 9, 2013)

Here's the REAL deal.The ONLY advantage of Rage broadheads is that they can fly decent out of a poorly tuned bow.They DO NOT penetrate as well.Yes,they will pass thru the" bread basket" as any broadhead in the world will w/today's crazy bow speeds.Where they lack,significantly,is on the less than perfect hits.You hit a deer thru the shoulder w/a Rage and w/a slick Trick or Muzzy and I GUARANTEE you'll want the fixed blades from then on.Another false benefit of accuracy from Rage is that they'll make the crazy light arrows people use nowadays fly good.But those also SUCK at penetrating bone.Yes they'll fly right thru the "garden spot" but shoulders,armor on hogs,NOPE.Guys,shoot whatever you want.Believe what you want.A heavier arrow and a quality fixed blade is the best option.Not the only option that works,just the best option.
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## Drew318 (Mar 25, 2010)

You guys have all been very helpful and I appreciate it.
This is from a rage 2 blade btw. No doubt in my mind these things do the job.









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## Drew318 (Mar 25, 2010)

You guys have all been very helpful. I appreciate all your input.

This is from a rage 2 blade btw. First bow kill and my first buck.









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## britton1989 (Feb 14, 2010)

ive shot two blade magnus broadheads with heavy carbon arrows and have never broke through shoulder...not to say you cant... ive glanced off side but never passed through shoulder... then again i havent shot a deer in shoulder yet lately with newer bow.. i always air on side of caution and aim toward to back part of lungs where you can let the huge cutting diameter work and guarantee a pass through and no deer survives a 2.5 to 3 inch hole through the midsection.. and also just cause you dont get a complete pass through doesnt mean your deer will die faster, it only means you can track it easier.. a deer chest with one hole and both lungs will die just as fast.. also a deers chest can fill up with blood and make him not be able to breath.. but its my opinion i will let it go. Im glad we have people hunting regardless of what they use in the world today.. we need all the help we can get to fight against peta and all them anti hunting groups.. go killem boys... good luck


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

I have had more effect on accuracy tuning knocks than broad heads.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Ah yes another thread that turns into a rage broadhead bashing!! Yay!!

And archery is all about consistency, doing the samething the same way over and over. I also make my own arrows, I cut them to length, glue on the vanes, Aline my 2 blade rage broadhead so the blade are straight up and down in line with the cock vane before i glue in my insert. To me it does matter. I also number my arrows and use the one arrow in the field first that I shoot best consistently. To me it's all the little things that add up and make me a better archer.


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## Cajunsaugeye (Apr 9, 2013)

Britton,I didn't mean you can get a pass thru w/slicks or Muzzys,because you won't.What you'll get is enough penetration to still get to the vitals and get your animal.You will not w/a Rage.That's the truth.ezbite,since you've bought into the hype and marketing and shoot Rages,of course you're gonna say stated facts,experiences and trying to help others not to be sick over wounding a trophy is simply broadhead bashing.That's fine.Just don't ever hit a deer marginally and you'll be fine.Heavy arrows and quality fixed blade broadheads out of a well tuned bow is what you owe any animal you shoot at.I've not only seen the 2 blade Rages fail at penetration numerous times,but have also seen 3 blade Rages actually bend the blades enough to not let the other blades deploy.Other expandables are worse and Rage is the best design so far for expandables,They just have their weaknesses when it comes to marginal hits.I'm not saying they're horrible,and by all means,shoot whatever you want.But,when bone is contacted on its way towards the vitals,shoulder or hip,your gonna be sick if your shooting any expandable head.That's just the way it is.At least from what I've seen,heard and read.Experiences and research is key before anyone should back,bash,defend or use anything.

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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

Good post, ezbite.


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## treytd32 (Jun 12, 2009)

my vote is that rage (etc.) are so popular because of marketing behind them just like 90% of the other hunting accessories that are your "must" haves. Personally, you will never catch me shooting them as I have seen more than once where the blades never actually expanded..doesn't mean someone else won't love them.

I have shot an arrow with no fletchings on it before and it was comical, similar to shooting a musket ball. Anyone see the myth busters try to hit the broad side of barn with a musket? lol

I also number my arrows EZ, I just seem more consistent with some


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

i dont use any expandables but im not gonna bash em...they work its just not my choice. its more about shot placement than expecting a miracle broadhead to bail you out.ive seen many times first hand damage the expandibles do and its no joke.

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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

I guess this guy didn't buy the hype.lol. it was a bad hit, but I recovered this goober,,,yar...


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## Drew318 (Mar 25, 2010)

Great video ez!

Classic line right here

"I guess it's best to take him out"


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## sam kegg (Jun 23, 2007)

yes indeed great video! I always video my kills as much as I can but have never posted! great job!!


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Lundy said:


> Why is there fletching on an arrow, why have it there at all?
> 
> Fletching is there to provide stabile flight. How does it accomplish that task? By imparting rotation on the arrow. The rifling in a gun barrel provides the same stabilization through rotation on a bullet that fletching does on a arrow. A bullet shot out of a smooth bore gun will be totally dependent on the bullet shape and aerodynamics to determine its flight and more importantly the consistency of flight from one to the next. That is why the old rifled shotgun deer slugs have the rifling on the slug itself and it designed for smoothbore barrels.
> 
> ...


Excellent post! There's a bit more to shooting a bow, and shooting fixed blade broadheads from a bow, than some folks care to contemplate. And, until just a few years ago, I was one of those folks! 

I shoot a Mathews 2004 Outback compound bow. Yes, there has been "newer" and "better" introduced over the years, but, the Outback seems like it was built just for me, so I never had any motivation to change. I always depended on the bow shop (and the bow shop owner's ideas) to get my bow set up and "tuned". I could shoot field points quite well, my usual 3D score (30 target) was in the mid 280's. Not taking home any trophies, but quite good enough to hunt.

Fixed blade broadheads were another story. Fixed blades on a broadhead "fight" the fletching for control of the arrow. I started bowhunting in the '70's, and I'm wondering if anyone here is old enough to remember Savora broadheads. 4 blades and flew true! A wonderful broadhead! When they disappeared from the market, I had to find another. Nothing quite seemed to work as well. 

Then, when the "mechanicals" started showing up, I tried them. My first were Rocket Aeroheads, the "jackknife" style. Then, when Rage showed up with their rear deploying heads I tried them. After a few bad experiences I found myself soul searching.

I'm also a member of the Mathews forum, and on that forum were quite a few members who constantly asserted that if your bow was properly tuned, it would shoot a broadhead with your field points. I decided to go this way, and, with the help of quite a few members of the Mathews community, I learned how to tune my own compound. After determining that your arrow has the proper spine for your bow, this basically involves getting your ATA (axle to axle) and BH (brace height) measurements in spec. After that you ensure that your cam rotation is correct, not under or over rotated. Then comes Center Shot (how far the arrow shaft is from the riser) and Nock Height (is your arrow, at Brace Height, at 90 degrees to the string, or is it above or below that point, and by how much). As it turns out, my nock is 3/16" above 90 degrees. 

Yes, it took a lot of work and many shooting sessions. Heck, I had to keep a notebook to keep track of all the changes I made so I could remember where I was from one session to another. But, once I got the bow spot on, the sense of satisfaction was just wonderful. To be able to put Montecs, Muzzys, Thunderheads, and any other fixed blade broadhead you can name right where I wanted it was a beautiful feeling, and boosted my confidence in the stand a hundred fold.

For those who feel that this is too much trouble, I disagree. You owe it, not just to the game you hunt, but to yourself to go to such pains. After all, you can't possible enjoy wounding game that you don't recover, can you? I've seen muzzleloader guys at the range on my club use up half a day trying different grain weights of powder and projectile searching for the perfect combo. What's the difference?


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## Cajunsaugeye (Apr 9, 2013)

The whole point is,with all the resources available today,ANYONE can learn to paper tune,walk back tune,broadhead tune,etc in mere minutes on you tube.Your accuracy w/field tips will improve also.And you'll be capable of fixing issues that may arise from a bump,drop,loose screw etc.A major issue may need a shop,but getting awesome" field point" flight from a fixed blade is not difficult or really time consuming at all.
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