# The cost of gas.



## smallieguy (Apr 7, 2004)

Is the cost of gas changing where you fish?
Is that extra $20 or so effecting your decision on where to go?
It has me. Of course I am jobless at the moment and living on savings
and unemployment so every nickel counts.
Just curious if anyone else is thinking those far away fishing holes might
have to wait.


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

Not so much here as every free minute I get to go fishing, which isn't much , I try to make the most of it.


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## ohiou_98 (Mar 19, 2007)

Definitely so. It's not really effecting where/how far away I fish, but it does effect where I take my boat. A few weeks ago I drove to a lake a little over an hour way, and spent big bucks feeding my gas guzzling truck. (To add to that, I didn't even get a bite!)
My wife suggested that with the gas prices I should stay w/in a 30 min. radius from home....... She's right. After all, those big bucks in gas could be spent on football jigs, shakey head worms, jitterbugs, spinnerbaits, etc.  So, that's exactly what I've been doing for the last few weeks.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm definitely fishing closer to home. I was planning on driving around and fishing all these different lakes, but now I'm pretty much sticking to Griggs and my Quarry. I have completely given up fast food, which adds to my fishing fund a little. I have also cut back on the number of times I go bowling. 

I haven't fished any less though!


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## bountyhunter (Apr 28, 2004)

I:M trying out some lakes that are closer also , yea the gas price has hit everybody, and in my opinion it;s not going to get better, the days of 3.00gas are gone ,


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## madcrappiekids (Mar 11, 2006)

we have 1 trip to salt fork and maybe one to erie...not going to be many weekend road trips here. The big boat won't likley see much water this year either, staying close and small lakes (10hp or electric motor)


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## GETTIN' THERE (Apr 17, 2007)

Oh yes. Will be spending much more time on my local lake this year (CJ Brown). Only about 30 miles from the drive way to the ramp. Also two trip weekends are out, it will be either or, unless I make it a camping/fishing weekend. Also gone will be pulling the boat to Erie, will depend on friends who dock up there for my Erie trips. This sucks, and it is not just the price of gas. The wife is pulling her hair out over the grocery bills. I am looking
at cutting cost any way I can.


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## NITRO-RIDER (Jan 26, 2007)

What burns me up the most about it , is that the oil companies are having RECORD high profits. I remember after the 9-11 attacks that many gas stations raised their prices and the government fined several of them for price gouging. Is'nt that what this is? You don't hear anything about that now. Wat's up with that?


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## madcrappiekids (Mar 11, 2006)

went by the truck stops here yesterday -- diesel was $4.18 per gallon!


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## GETTIN' THERE (Apr 17, 2007)

madcrappiekids said:


> went by the truck stops here yesterday -- diesel was $4.18 per gallon!


you can thank the EPA for that and the the low sulfur emission requirments
that went into effect last year.


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

its def keepin me from fishing some of my good spots, especially since i moved back to xenia (away from my spots) but ill make the occassional trip to them but not as much, its also keeping me from going to alot of Dirt Track Racing but ill still pay the gas to go to Eldora but thats the exception, i seen on cnn yesterday that a college professor did a study and calculated that someone making $9 an hour would have to work 7 extra hours just to put 15 gallons of gas in there vehilce at $4.00 a gallon.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

It's not just fuel for the car that's affecting my decisions. My residential trash pick up is now $70.26 for 3 months! That's at least a 100% increase in the past few years. I recently canceled my daily newspaper subscription  and more cuts are on the way.


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## BigDaddy300 (Nov 1, 2004)

I am in the same exact boat as you smallieguy. It is definately changed my destinations. It used to be nothing for me to drive 120 miles round trip 2 or even 3 days in a row. Not anymore! It really does suck when you do decide to make a long drive and you are fishing and not catching and you start to think about how much it just cost you to go for a boat ride and wash some lures. That drives me nuts. I go fishing to try and relax and not have to worry about stuff like that, but it is almost impossible not to 

It also changed my view about C&R. I have kept very, very few fish over the years. But now I think I might start to keep a few more to try and save a little on the grocery bill. Unfortunately I do not see and end in sight


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## Nikster (Mar 14, 2007)

I stopped into a local station to get $ 5.00 for GAS,

The clerk FARTED & handed me a reciept.


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## CARP 104 (Apr 19, 2004)

NITRO-RIDER said:


> What burns me up the most about it , is that the oil companies are having RECORD high profits. I remember after the 9-11 attacks that many gas stations raised their prices and the government fined several of them for price gouging. Is'nt that what this is? You don't hear anything about that now. Wat's up with that?


I remember this...it was up to over $5.00 a gallon briefly, and there were lines to the pumps. I didn't get near the gas stations when this happened. If the gas stations were ripping people off then what makes us think they aren't doing it now...plain and simple they are, and yet the government would rather give us an economic stimulus check rather than investigating this, which is really hurting the economy more than anything. What really gets me is that the gas stations are obviously operating with each other to some extent, because they ALL raised their prices after 9/11 to price gouge us. 

Prices of everything are rising at insane rates, and the only thing not rising with them is income. I really hope this doesn't stay this way much longer, at this rate the US economy will really be hurting.


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

The oil companies' profit MARGIN is nearly the same, about 9%, year in, year out. However, worldwide demand is crazy ( The number of cars in China has quadrupled in the last 10 years!!) & so they are selling more & more gallons all the time. 

Say you NET 10 cents per gallon profit & you sold 1 gallon last year. This year, you sell 2 gallons: Your profit has doubled!

Yeah the rising price of fuel sucks & it is driving the cost of almost everything else except wages, but I'll make 3 trips to northern WI this summer if I have to collect aluminum cans to do it.


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## dock dabber (Mar 20, 2005)

Changed my plan. I was thinking about buying a new boat this year. Can afford to buy the boat, and can afford to put the gas in it also. But the problem is the closet lake to me is Grand Lake St Marys and it is a dirty mess. Fifty miles to IL and 50.00 just for gas to tow the damn thing back and forth 1 time. Thank God my wifes brother owns a quarry about 6 miles from the house and we have plenty of boats out there to fish out of and clean water to fish. I would like to see the new sales figures for Bass boats and campers since the winter shows. I work part time at a golf course and we have about 31 acres of grass we will not be mowing to try and hold down cost this year. Our play has been way off so far this year. The cost of gas this year has wiped out the money that was spent for green fees last year.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I don't like it it, but it will not slow or alter my fishing plans. I'll do whatever it takes to pour money into the tank for a day on the water. It cost me roughly $180 to trailer my boat to Erie and back and fish 3 trips - still well worth it in my mind. 

Besides the fact I would spend the money for the experience, I justify the money by counting the walleye fillets at $10.99+ per lb. If I were to buy the walleye, I wouldn't come out much better and I get to enjoy the fishing and the lake.


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

I haven't cut back on fishing at all just trying to be smarter on what ramps I use and where I plan to fish so I have less of a run to the fish which will save gas money. No more driving back and forth two days in a row it's cheaper to stay in a hotel up in PC or Catawba rather than driving back and forth twice in one weekend, I'm also trying to eat out less and eat more at home and pack fishing lunches and drinks from the grocery store and buying stuff in bulk like bottled water, night crawlers etc. Gas prices suck BOOO


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## Captain Kevin (Jun 24, 2006)

First of all The President will not get involved due to Big Oil money putting him in the White house. His family is oil people. He ain't going to cut his own throat folks. As for the extra 20 bucks at the boat docks affecting my decisions to fish ? No, it's the extra 40 in my wifes car for work, the extra 40 for my truck to get to work, and the extra couple hundred a month for utility, and food increases. Face it folks, our government is full of corruption. Until we make our votes count, and start paying attention to the under the table garbage going on it's only going to get worse for the common man. I always said I'd live long enough to see the next civil war in this country, and I believe it more everyday.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

Not to say I told you so, but there were many people were predicting this. Many economists and environmental groups have been saying it for a long time. Of course for every one of them there is a scientist paid by big oil to say the opposite(guess which one gets more air time). So people continued to do what they usually do when there are problems, cover their head in sand until the problem has them covered up, then once it's out of hand they say "I didn't think it would happen", or "nobody told me". Long story short, most of America is to lazy to keep up with the political landscape, and even if they do they usually just fish news channels until they find one that feeds them what they want to hear. Guess what the political landscape effects everything, from gas to food, and then it effects fishing, it's all tied together. This is what we get when teaching American governments based on how it was ran in the pre-1910. People who are unable to understand that the economy and therefore their standard of living teaters on the actions of the politics, people don't vote on merit they vote for someone that resembles them. Last election season what was the hottest issue? not the economy, not gas, it was gay marriage, honestly can anyone not see in retrospect the priority problem in this country, yet people still wonder why important things like, unemployment, the economy, and gas prices suffer? After all, if the average American has minimal understanding of economics and it's effects why would a politician mess with economics. Though maybe a depression would help many understand the consequences of decisions back home. After all, the past 20 years or so has been a happy little bubble where consequences never really made it back home economically, people only complain when it hits the wallet. Also I'd like to take this time to have everyone stop and wave goodbye to the middle class. $17 a barrel in the start of first term, $120 now.

If any admin's have a beef with this post I will remove it, but I believe this all has a large effect on fishing, and I think more people are starting to feel the effect. Until people start talking about issue they are only going to get worse, but there is no point in complaining if you are only going to discuss it in a bubble.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Happy Birthday athensfishin' !!


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Many folks have done an admirable job of tiptoeing the line of conformity on political discussion. I think we all know where that line is and this is a discussion that is very difficult to make and not get political. So having said that I suggest that we simply keep the discussion centered around Smallieguy's original question. Is it going to change where and how often you fish. For me it may not change it too much as my primary fishing spot is only about 10 miles from home. I did have a couple of other lakes in mind for this year and I really have not decided yet whether it will still happen. There is no doubt it is putting a major crunch on many other parts of my life. With increased cost of trucking that means that everything we buy is more expensive. I don't like it one bit but I am going to make as many changes as possible to keep ends meeting. I really feel sorry for folks who struggled to make those ends meet before this price hike hit.


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## billybob7059 (Mar 27, 2005)

It really has made a impact on me. I haven't even been to maumee once this year, due to the price of diesel fuel. But I will still fish as much as I can. But to do so I will have to cut back in some other areas. $120 to fill up each week is getting old fast!


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## rolland (Jan 8, 2008)

I got a 2004 ford focus to take on trips. Drove the truck all last year and going to the lake 3-5 times a week the gas savings will make the car payment easy.


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

Adding a kicker motor, renting a dock and driving a smaller vehicle to Erie will offset the increase and allow me to maintain bi-weekly trips.

BTW...there are ONLY 3 million cars in China...That's probably only half of what's in Ohio...!


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## BigDaddy300 (Nov 1, 2004)

Hetfieldinn said:


> I refuse to let to let the increase in gas dictate where, or how many times I fish.
> 
> I just cut down on how many times I mow the lawn and get the dogs groomed.


Hate to see the grass and the dogs hair at your place.  

Wish I could do the same, believe me I want to, but as much as I say fishing is a priority there are much more important priorities.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Wellspoken as always Athensfishin, albeit misguided and quite slanted. Great links, now I know who controls your thoughts. $4 plus a gallon gas has been an unfortunate reality for most of the world for some years now. That is except for the oil producing nations and, of course, the communist nations that restrict income to a level that few have a vehicle to put gas in. Until we tap into the reserves that we have here, several hundred years worth at the current consumption level, this and worse is what we all can expect. Were getting our first taste of it now and no one, including me, likes it. You can all direct your currently misdirected anger at those that prohibit us from drilling for petrol on our own soil.
Myself, I will not change my fishing habits due to fuel costs. If anyone has noticed several costs are increasing as well, groceries, natural gas, electric, etc. The current upswing in living costs meets a perodical constant that has been evident, in one way or another, throughout our history. If you think about it when petrol was $40 a barrel (couple years ago) gas at the pump was $2. Now that petrol is $120 a barrel gas is $3.50 a gallon. If
everything was realitive gas could be $6 a gallon (like Europe). Be thankful that our gas still costs less than most others and, for God's sake, go fishing.
And when you have really had enough of the high cost of fuel, run the morons out of office that think that owls, rats, caribou, and toads are more important than drilling for oil in ANWAR, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana, Arizona, the Gulf, and such.
Or just quit fishing.


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## flathunter (Apr 5, 2004)

I heard a guy on the radio say that oil will reach 250 a barrel by next year...And gas will be 10 bucks a gallon...Good by USA.


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## zpyles_00 (Dec 15, 2004)

Gas prices cut my fishin in about half almost 2 years ago. A year ago I spent 3 months in germany and seen there gas was over $6 a gallon, so when I got back, our $3 a gallon gas didn't look bad. But it's starting to suck again real quick, specially with an hour drive to work. It has also affected my hunting and alot of other leisure activitys.

This year the boat is gone, due to unfortunate circumstances, and the truck is 4sale now as well, but even if I wasn't getting divorced, I don't think my truck & boat would have left the drive way more than 6 times this entire fishing season spring/summer/fall combined. 

I've said this many times, I believe we only have ourselves to blame. America has lost sight of alot of things, family value's, politics, economic issues, morals, etc...... and I still believe aside from gas itself, Corporate America is what/who is tearing this country apart!!!!

I just do not understand in any way shape or form how any self concious person who owns a company can lay-off lets say 1000 people because they found some company in a foreign land to make the same product for them at 20&#37; of the cost, at not even half the quality, and then turn around and think they can sell it to the american people at the same price. Do these idiots not realize that the 1000 employees are amongst the american people they laid off that now can't afford to put food on the table for their families?????????????????

It is just a get rich quick skeem for them and them alone, they care absolutely about no one else. 

One of the best things we have going for us right now is the fact that the rest of the world is slowly finding themselves in a food crisis (due to global warming which was probably caused by us filthy americans lol) and these countries are going to start looking to the US for help. 
All in all, I believe things haven't even begun to get bad yet. What everyone is experiencing now is probably just the calm before the storm. WWIII is just around the corner, if it hasn't begun already. The draft will open back up, and I would go as far as saying we will come to the brinks of another civil war if things don't change. Europe has been warning us about this for decades, we just refused to listen to them. Now they are all sittin back and saying we told you so.


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

CARP 104 said:


> What really gets me is that the gas stations are obviously operating with each other to some extent, because they ALL raised their prices after 9/11 to price gouge us.


http://www.opec.org/home/

Quote from OPECS website :



> OPEC's mission is to coordinate and unify the petroleum policies of Member Countries and ensure the stabilization of oil markets in order to secure an efficient, economic and regular supply of petroleum to consumers, a steady income to producers and a fair return on capital to those investing in the petroleum industry.


I'm pretty sure if you read between the lines, somewhere in there it says "bleed them dry."

When you sit down and think about it, anything you consume(read purchase) can have its value changed by the cost of fuel. I think there's a fine line between greed and profit and they're crossing the lines.

*HOWEVER*: This is slowing the consumtion of oil some I'm sure, increasing the time "Oil Companys" will be in business while at the same time increasing their profits dramatically.

This is a very old story published by MSNBC, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5945678/ ( but scroll down to about 3/4ths the page and you can find a spot where you can enter the price of gas and the miles you drive in a month. With that it will tell you your annual spendings now are on fuel. Divide that ammount by you salary, and you see what percent the oil industry is making off you a year. OR make it worse and add in how much ya think ya spend a year on electric. The percentage you'll see that you spend on your energy consumption.... kinda scary. For me at an estimated $3.75 a gallon it cost me almost $1774 a year just to get to work.... *YIKES* 

The bottom line and/or moral of the story:

They got us by the cajones.


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## peple of the perch (Sep 13, 2004)

I'm just glad that I have 4 nice lakes with in 15 minutes. Also they are eletric motor only. so only gas is on the truck getting the boat there.


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## BigDaddy300 (Nov 1, 2004)

peple of the perch said:


> I'm just glad that I have 4 nice lakes with in 15 minutes. Also they are eletric motor only. so only gas is on the truck getting the boat there.


You will probably be seeing me at one of those lakes. I think I will be going to LaDue more this year than in the past. It is only 1/2 hour drive for me.


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## Be one with the fish! (May 21, 2006)

This is why im getting a bike, 50 mpg here I come baby! Woo hoo!


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

"BTW...there are ONLY 3 million cars in China...That's probably only half of what's in Ohio...!" 

Not according to this source....

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-09/04/content_371641.htm

Who-dey


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## Nikster (Mar 14, 2007)

athensfishin' said:


> Not to say I told you so, but there were many people were predicting this. Many economists and environmental groups have been saying it for a long time. Of course for every one of them there is a scientist paid by big oil to say the opposite(guess which one gets more air time). So people continued to do what they usually do when there are problems, cover their head in sand until the problem has them covered up, then once it's out of hand they say "I didn't think it would happen", or "nobody told me". Long story short, most of America is to lazy to keep up with the political landscape, and even if they do they usually just fish news channels until they find one that feeds them what they want to hear. Guess what the political landscape effects everything, from gas to food, and then it effects fishing, it's all tied together. This is what we get when teaching American governments based on how it was ran in the pre-1910. People who are unable to understand that the economy and therefore their standard of living teaters on the actions of the politics, people don't vote on merit they vote for someone that resembles them. Last election season what was the hottest issue? not the economy, not gas, it was gay marriage, honestly can anyone not see in retrospect the priority problem in this country, yet people still wonder why important things like, unemployment, the economy, and gas prices suffer? After all, if the average American has minimal understanding of economics and it's effects why would a politician mess with economics. Though maybe a depression would help many understand the consequences of decisions back home. After all, the past 20 years or so has been a happy little bubble where consequences never really made it back home economically, people only complain when it hits the wallet. Also I'd like to take this time to have everyone stop and wave goodbye to the middle class. $17 a barrel in the start of first term, $120 now.
> 
> If any admin's have a beef with this post I will remove it, but I believe this all has a large effect on fishing, and I think more people are starting to feel the effect. Until people start talking about issue they are only going to get worse, but there is no point in complaining if you are only going to discuss it in a bubble.


*THANK YOU for a GREAT POST*


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

nope, it will not affect me. i will fish as i always do. might have to eat tuna from a can, but then again, im in a happy little bubble. !%


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## leckig (May 11, 2005)

it used to be cheaper to drive here than in Europe, but this is not so much true anymore. 

It is true that lets say in Germany one liter of diesel cost about 1 Euro, but most modern diesel cars easily get well over 50 MPG. And I am not talking little cars, I am talking VW passat, scoda octavia etc, large sedans.

Unfortunately, USA is crazy about expensive hybrids, while diesel technology is cheaper and tested. I did a lot of research on that and still cannot find any logical answer.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Athens hit the nail on the head with that post...

Consumption has not gone up that much to justify oil at $115/barrel. It the hedge funds and the commodity brokers and everyone else pouring money into the commodity markets cause the stock market is not going anywhere. A few years ago everyone was spectulating on the housing markets in the US.
That market went on a fast trip south, the stock market still doesn't have a direction so everyone who wants to get rich quick is pouring their available money into commodities.
In 2010/2011 the commodities will take a deep dive south after consumption plummets due to the current economic recession we are in.
Let's just hope our govt. in power at that time doesn't feel an obligation to bail the hedge funds at our expense like our current one just did with Bear Sterns.

Plus don't forget that oil contracts are paid for in US dollars. Have you checked how comparatively little our dollar is worth these days?
That's because Americans are in debt over their ears, we are running a deficit of hundreds of billions of dollars each year, interest rates are historically low and the rest of the world thinks they can make more money or it's safer to park their assets in Euros or other country's currencys.
That's makes everything we import more expensive.


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

Keep the highway speed down. I drive about 250 miles round trip for work each week. I consistently get 25mpg at 70/75 (or so) mph when travelling around the speed of traffic on rte 2/turnpike. Over the past month, I have set the cruise at 60mph for my work trips. The mpg has improved to 31. Interesting thing is that I rarely pass anyone. 

I guess the folks doing 75/80mph+ don't mind using more gas. If everyone topped out at 60mph on the highways, we could probably achieve a 15% to 20% reduction in gas usage.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Steel Cranium said:


> Keep the highway speed down. I drive about 250 miles round trip for work each week. I consistently get 25mpg at 70/75 (or so) mph when travelling around the speed of traffic on rte 2/turnpike. Over the past month, I have set the cruise at 60mph for my work trips. The mpg has improved to 31. Interesting thing is that I rarely pass anyone.
> 
> I guess the folks doing 75/80mph+ don't mind using more gas. If everyone topped out at 60mph on the highways, we could probably achieve a 15% to 20% reduction in gas usage.


That is quite an improvement in mileage. I have also consciously slowed down MOST of the time. I know I am helping myself but I have never been able to put a figure to it. Reading that keeps me motivated to continue doing so.


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## twistertail (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey Steel what kind of car do you drive? I saw an article a few weeks ago that said if you drive 70 intead of 60 its like paying 34 more cents per gallon. So I drove my regular speed, around 70-75, for a full tank and got 28.5mph. Then the next tank never went over 60 and only got 29.3, .8mpg better hardly a big savings! I have a Dodge Stratus with a small 4 cylinder so maybe it just makes a difference on bigger cars/trucks?


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

if i go slower toeing the boat it does save me gas.


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

twistertail said:


> Hey Steel what kind of car do you drive? I saw an article a few weeks ago that said if you drive 70 intead of 60 its like paying 34 more cents per gallon. So I drove my regular speed, around 70-75, for a full tank and got 28.5mph. Then the next tank never went over 60 and only got 29.3, .8mpg better hardly a big savings! I have a Dodge Stratus with a small 4 cylinder so maybe it just makes a difference on bigger cars/trucks?


Mazda 3. Probably a bigger benefit in savings due to the 4-cylinder having to work harder at higher speeds. A 6 or more would probably see less overall reduction. Had the same issue with an older s-10 pickup. The 4-cylinder engine really sucked the gas at higher speeds.

I get my mpg stats from the onboard computer and the miles between fill-ups.


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## twistertail (Apr 10, 2004)

So your Mazda has a 4 cylinder? thats all I have and it made less than 1mpg difference, I dont get it?


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## zpyles_00 (Dec 15, 2004)

probably have different gear ratio's and also your air intake system is probably different, or cleaner/dirtier. 

Air intake systems play a HUGE roll in your mpg.


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

cincinnati said:


> "BTW...there are ONLY 3 million cars in China...That's probably only half of what's in Ohio...!"
> 
> Not according to this source....
> 
> ...


You're right...should have said Bejing.


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## Pay2Play (Oct 23, 2007)

It plain and simple that we are dependent on foreign oil sources....until we get out of being "politically correct" in this country we all pay in one way or the other. Too bad you have to have money to be in higher office nowadays!

That said, I go by my screename....if you want to play you got to pay!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

> For me at an estimated $3.75 a gallon it cost me almost $1774 a year just to get to work.... YIKES


.......to make how much per year?

If you research this, I think you'll find as Americans are cost to earnings ratio is much better than the rest of the world.

We have had cheap gas (compared to the rest of the world) for a loooooooong time, be grateful for that.


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> .......to make how much per year?
> 
> If you research this, I think you'll find as Americans are cost to earnings ratio is much better than the rest of the world.
> 
> We have had cheap gas (compared to the rest of the world) for a loooooooong time, be grateful for that.


I'm honestly not comfortable posting my salary to a bunch of people I don't really know... but what I'm saying is if you look at the percentage of money you earn that goes towards energy consumption it's pretty staggering.


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## snake69 (Sep 26, 2005)

I just find someone to go with me and split the gas. Also will work a few hours over a few nights a week to help get cash for gas. All in all, it won't change for me. Drove 110 miles round trip today for some eyes and will do it again in the morning and possibly Sunday will run up to Berlin. To keep my sanity, I've got to fish!!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Fishman said:


> I'm honestly not comfortable posting my salary to a bunch of people I don't really know... but what I'm saying is if you look at the percentage of money you earn that goes towards energy consumption it's pretty staggering.


I really wasn't expecting you to post your salary. The question was posied to make you "think" about the cost to earning ratio.

My Daddy always said "It takes money to make money".

And besides whats wrong with any buisiness (in this case an oil company) turning a profit? Isn't that what capitalism is about? We are still a capitalist country aren't we?


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> .......to make how much per year?
> 
> If you research this, I think you'll find as Americans are cost to earnings ratio is much better than the rest of the world.
> 
> We have had cheap gas (compared to the rest of the world) for a loooooooong time, be grateful for that.


Also it should be stated that the average price of gas has NEVER been $3.75 per year....


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

MLAROSA said:


> Also it should be stated that the average price of gas has NEVER been $3.75 per year....


It was never $2.00 a gallon average either until about 5 years ago, time is changing quickly.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Ofcourse time is changing.

My Daddy use to say "The only thing that stays the same is....change".

As the dollar becomes devauled, imports (including oil) will become more expensive.

As the Fed keeps printing dollars and slashing rates, the dollar will continue to weaken.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

It should also be noted that OPEC did not *decrease* their supply this year either. Typically this time of year is when OPEC cuts supply to preform maintence on their equipment for the up coming summer BOOM in demand.

Supply and Demand certainly has an effect on the oil market. Many investors are buying oil as a hedge against the falling dollar. Personally I bought gold instead, but for the same reasons. The dollar is crashing.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

athens,i was so proud of you,but you must have had a relapse with that last one


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

Meh, win some lose some. So is life on the edge I suppose. Do I still get the post count for it?


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

LOL.yep,though you get no star for content,the post will not be deducted from your total count


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## Be one with the fish! (May 21, 2006)

The most fuel efficient speed is 55 mph, Im suprised they havent changed that to the national speed limit on highways yet.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Be one with the fish! said:


> The most fuel efficient speed is 55 mph, Im suprised they havent changed that to the national speed limit on highways yet.


"They" haven't made a national speed limit because speed limits are set by state government not federal. "They" would do well to leave states to govern themselves as the country was intended.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> They" haven't made a national speed limit because speed limits are set by state government not federal.


oh yes they have 
back in the 70's the feds imposed the 55 limit based on supposed oil crisis.in the 80's it was removed,and has since been controlled by the individual states.here's a little history.and as far as best mileage speeds,in the early 70's i got my best mileage on a chevy v8 at about 70 mph.i've always contended that when the national speed limit was implemented,car makers tuned motors down to effectively get their best mileage at 55.i may be wrong,but that's my story,and i'm sticking to it 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Sure they have....and it was repealed too.

Unfortunately "they" still have control over certain aspects as speed limits or bac levels. This control isn't in writting however, it resides in dollars. "They" will simply cut highway funding (as "they" did to Nevada in your link).


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

55 MPH...Been there done that...! That was the Fed's solution back in the day. It didn't work then and it's not the solution now.
Rick, has it right...again...!   

Besides, all vehicles are not created equal. Some are better at 55 and some are better at 70...then there are some better at 65...!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Hook N Book said:


> 55 MPH...Been there done that...! That was the Fed's solution back in the day. It didn't work then and it's not the solution now.
> Rick, has it right...again...!
> 
> Besides, all vehicles are not created equal. Some are better at 55 and some are better at 70...then there are some better at 65...!


I prefer the ones that are best at 85-90.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

yes it was repealed,but it just shows they can and will do what they think is necessary 
another concocted reason(or by-product) they gave for it was that it saved thousands of lives,which was not really proven.if that were the case,they wouldn't have later bumped it to 65 and then let states set it even higher after that.

ps........i also like the 85-90
but my little red truck likes 55-60 much better 
and at these gas prices,i try to let her have her way.

ps to rodney.......................it's amazing how often i'm right now,since i got divorced,if you get the drift


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## Astro1700 (Sep 23, 2007)

I think about the price, but I figure I'll be dealing with it for many years to come. Truck and boat now make for an expensive day trip.


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## TomC (Aug 14, 2007)

All i have to say is thank goodness i only live 10 min from the river. But yes, I wont be going up to indian lake this year and kiser is not going to get hit as much. Just wish i could find an econony car that gets 30mpg and is capable of towing a trailer and jon boat. 

Guess if it gets too much worse ill fish in the toilet.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

My truck is rather odd. It gets 12mpg at 55, and 12 mpg at 85...so what hell.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

I don't know if I'm beating a dead horse here or not, but....to pound the point home even more, here it goes.

In the 1960 the average price of gasoline was 25 cents a gallon.

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1960s.html

Take those same 3 1950 dimes and their value today still gets you 1+ gallon of gasoline.

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1946-1964-Silver-Roosevelt-Dime-Value.html

The same can basically be said to all items. Cars, homes, rent, etc etc....

Price of fuel isn't increasing, the dollar is crashing which is why all commodities are going up.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> I don't know if I'm beating a dead horse here or not, but....to pound the point home even more, here it goes.
> 
> In the 1960 the average price of gasoline was 25 cents a gallon.
> 
> ...


I really don't see how the numbers on that site defend your argument on the price of gas. Here is one to consider using the numbers from that same site.

In 1960 a gallon of gas was 25 cents and by 1969 was 35 cents 

In 1960 the average income per year was $5,315.00 and by 1969 was $8,540.00 

Say you bought 1,000 gallons of gas in a year in 1960 you would have spent $250 which is 4.7&#37; of one's average salary. Now jump forward to today and buy that same 1,000 gallons of gas. You will spend $3590. I will be generous and say that the average income is $50,000 which I know is WAY high. That would mean that you spent 7.2% of your average salary on that same 1,000 gallons of gasoline.

In 1960 the average cost of new car was $2,600.00 which would make it roughly 30% of one annual salary. I will again be generous and say that you can buy a comparable car new nowadays for $20,000. That would make it 40% of the annual salary.

In 1960 a new house cost $12,700.00 which is roughly 239% of one annual salary. Fast forward to today and again I will be generous and say that the average cost of a new home is $150,000. That would make it 300% of one's annual salary.

Gas prices have gone up 14.36 times that of 1960 but our annual salary has gone up less than 10 times in that same span.

Tell me again why I am better off paying over $3.50 a gallon for my gas rather than $.25??


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

Whatever it takes to slow down consumption...


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

thanks for saving me some work,brian 
i have to add one thing.though mlarosa's numbers may give the impression that prices are in line with overall inflaton,there are other factors as you mentioned.it is also hard to understand fairly steady gradual increases for years,and now we see oil prices jump as much as 100% in a few months lately.even in the last several years,prices have shot up at a much higher rate than overall inflation.same thing is happening to other commodities now,as a result of the outragous oil prices.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Bkr40350, According to the US Census Bureau the median, 4 person family, income in 2005 was $67,019 with a high of $92,205 in Connecticut and a low of 47,726 in Mississippi (that would mean our income has increased by 12.61 times not less than 10). That was 2005. Using todays gas prices at the 2005 income levels that 1000 gals. that cost 4.7% in 1960 would cost 5% at TODAYS prices(keep in mind gas was about $1.65 per gallon in 2005). 
As far as cars go your math was flawed. In 1960 if you made $5315 and a new car cost was $2600 than the car would represent 49% of your annual income, not the 30% you indicated. At the 2005 US Census rate of $67,019, if an average car today cost was $20,000 (your numbers) that would represent 30% of your income. 
As far as new homes go (I've had a few) for as long as I can remember a good rule of thumb is that you can afford, at most, about 3 times your annual income in a new home purchase.
Nobody likes the prices we pay today for consumables but we quickly forget what we paid 10 years ago. We bitch about what we were paid, in wages, this year but we forget what we made 10 years ago. Everyone needs to take a good look at their Social Security statements this year as a reminder of "How it used to be". 
I do not like $4.29 Diesel but we have it damn good here and are doing MUCH better than most in this world. 
If people truly want lower energy costs they will quit blaming the oil companies that purchase oil from their only source which is currently OPEC (they set the costs). Vote the MORONS out of office that prohibit us from drilling for oil on our lands (Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Alaska, The Gulf, etc). We have oil enough reserves here to last us, at current consumption levels, several hundred years. 
Everyone needs to quit their bitching, step up, and send a directive to Congress.
But you won't, you'll keep bitching and blaming "Big Oil"'


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

....outrageous oil prices and fuel now being made out of FOOD.

The easy answer is for everyone to conserve on a personal level. 

Americans consume oil at an obscene rate. Could you imagine how bad it would be if gasoline were cheap(er)?


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

papaw,the one major difference in those numbers for income for now vs circa 1960,is todays figures include a large portion of two income families,which was not the case in the 60's.
granted,wages are up,but take away that second income from many families,and you'll have lots of people in serious trouble.
and speaking of ss,at the present rate of inflation,the annual cost of living increases for recipients really amounts to a pay cut.add to that,the increased cost of gas and the other(necessary) things we buy(bread,milk,eggs,etc)those of us on a fixed income are really feeling the crunch.so as good as we have it(compared to others)it ain't no bed of roses for some of us


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Misfit, first let me address the the SS comment. I meant in no way to dispaerage SS receiptents. My point was directed to the Social Security wage statements that we all receive that shows our contributory analysis throughout our work and SS contribution history. It clearly reminds us of just what we have earned throughout our lives to this point. I realize, and sympathize, with the difficulties of all SS receiptents in an inflationary economy.
As far as the two income families go that is as much a fact of reality today as $3.59 gas, just as a single income family was in 1960 when gas was 25 cents. It is something we all must, and all can, adapt too.
As a WHOLE (a sum of IMPERFECT parts) we, as a country are doing well.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

no problem.i knew what you were talking about. it just made me think of the impact things are having now on everyone living on fixed incomes.yearly cost of living increases amount to about 2 1/2% i think,and current inflation if i'm not mistaken,is almost double that now and getting worse.i get a little upset when i think that i've had about a $75 a month increase in the past 5 years,and when i fill my (12 gallon)tank,it now costs $25 more than it did 5 years ago.that is about 130% increase 
add to that,up to 30-50% increases in some food items,etc,and i(as well as others)end up with an overall cut in pay


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

bkr43050 said:


> I really don't see how the numbers on that site defend your argument on the price of gas. Here is one to consider using the numbers from that same site.
> 
> In 1960 a gallon of gas was 25 cents and by 1969 was 35 cents
> 
> ...


As Papa pointed out, your math and facts are way out of line.

Not to mention yo completly missed the point. The same 25 cents it cost you for 1 gallon of gasoline in 1960 still gets you 1 gallon of gasoline today.

The economy has been slowly going dowhill since the government removed us from teh gold standard. Those three silver dimes dated 1960 buy you as much today as they did in 1960.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4200dc9e-1521-11dd-996c-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1



> Each time the dollar falls 1 per cent, the price of the barrel rises by $4 *and of course vice versa*.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> no problem.i knew what you were talking about. it just made me think of the impact things are having now on everyone living on fixed incomes.yearly cost of living increases amount to about 2 1/2% i think,and current inflation if i'm not mistaken,is almost double that now and getting worse.i get a little upset when i think that i've had about a $75 a month increase in the past 5 years,and when i fill my (12 gallon)tank,it now costs $25 more than it did 5 years ago.that is about 130% increase
> add to that,up to 30-50% increases in some food items,etc,and i(as well as others)end up with an overall cut in pay


I hope I don't offend in this post, but SS shouldn't be a way of life. I personally don't believe the government has any constitutonal right to with hold funds from American citizens to only give it back to them at a later date.

I certainly do not trust SS will be around long enough for me to see one cent of it (year 2053 I'll be eligible, I believe maybe 2046). I personally save, and attempt to make wise investments so I am set up for retirement, with little dependence on the government.

I certainly do not mean to sound like I'm passing judgement on you, or anyone else for that matter. I just see to often people who aren't ready to retire but have hit that magical age, and attempt to adjust their lives to a fixed income.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

Don't forget to factor in rising technology costs(cell phones, Computers, Cable, Etc.) Not to break from my traditional argue until my face is blue, Really there is not enough room in this thread to truly dissect both economic times and compare them.

Don't be too tough on misfit and SS, back in his day it was merely the most efficient way to cut down on the use of sea shells they used as currency, if the gov kept a chunk it was less shells in circulation.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

i don't take offense,but don't quite totally agree with your take on things.though saving and having another retirement plan is wise and helpful,not everyone is in the position.some through poor planning,some through lack of opportunity or other reasons beyond one's control.no matter your station in life,sometimes life can throw you a curve ball.
if i've learned anything in life,it is that nothing is a sure thing.you could be a king today,and a pauper tomorrow,or vice versa.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

I agree it is harder for some than it is for others to save, but I still think people can learn to live with in their means and save at the same time.

One problem I have with scociety in general is that people tend to extend themselves with credit they never can or intend to pay off.

Lucky for me my fiance was raised much like I was, in that if you can't afford it now, you don't need it now (which is how we *try* to maintain our lives). It keeps us realatively debt free, and in turn stress free.

The extra $20 it costs me for fuel only takes away from "extra" things in life that aren't necessary (smokes, chew, beer, diner out, golf, new fishing or hunting gear etc etc).

It's a lifestyle I think.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

athens,my problem,like many others, was i used up all my seashells making cute little souvenirs out of them,and gave them to friends and family members as gifts.now i only get that little pittance,while my friends and family members horded those souvenirs away,and they now are living the good life at a seaside resort,making a nice supplemental income selling them to tourists


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## buckeyeguy (Aug 20, 2006)

Back to Smallieguy's original question. The price of gas has already effected my fishing habits. Had originally planned on going back south to fish Deer Creek for some WB last weekend and this weekend, but at $3.56/gal. and a minimum of 360 mile round trip, I figured getting some stuff done around the house would be a better and more ecinomical decision.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

misfit said:


> athens,my problem,like many others, was i used up all my seashells making cute little souvenirs out of them,and gave them to friends and family members as gifts.now i only get that little pittance,while my friends and family members horded those souvenirs away,and they now are living the good life at a seaside resort,making a nice supplemental income selling them to tourists


There you go take a little Flintstones old age joke and making it depressing


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

I always liked Forbes idea for SS. 

Gov. still takes it out weekly but puts it into a mandated investment plan like a 401K. Drives the economy on that end plus at retirement, most average income people would receive approx. $3 million, which would drive the economy also! 

Quick question..........anyone receiving SS...............would you rather have the monthly check or $3 million.

I promise you the $3 million would generate a larger monthly check on interest alone! 

Why do we continue to allow this nonsense? I know I would much rather take the money they pull out for SS a month and invest it, then collect the small check I'll receive when I retire!!!


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

I believe that if we reduce demand in the US that the price will fall, somewhat. One way I have suggested before is that many people could work from home. There are many office people that could have an office at home with a laptop and cell phone and be connected to the home base. There are many office people in the larger metropolitan areas that commute each day, some many miles and few carpool. This will just take a change in management thinking and people will just have to learn to stay on task while doing this. I have been doing this for a year now and it is really not difficult to do. I was spending $50+ a week in gasoline at $2 a gallon, every time I think about how much I'm saving it helps to stay on task at home. As I said it will take CHANGE and that seems to be what we fear the most. 

To answer the original question: YES it has affected my fishing somewhat, fortunately I have 3 great saugeye/crappie/bass lakes within 25 mins of the house and a well stocked pond in my backyard. I just don't fish Salt Fork or Piedmont as often as I'd like anymore....now the shroom huntin', I just can't give that up!!!


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

PapawSmith said:


> Bkr40350, According to the US Census Bureau the median, 4 person family, income in 2005 was $67,019 with a high of $92,205 in Connecticut and a low of 47,726 in Mississippi (that would mean our income has increased by 12.61 times not less than 10). That was 2005. Using todays gas prices at the 2005 income levels that 1000 gals. that cost 4.7&#37; in 1960 would cost 5% at TODAYS prices(keep in mind gas was about $1.65 per gallon in 2005).


I figured someone would bring up the 2 income family situation now so I will give you that one.



PapawSmith said:


> As far as cars go your math was flawed. In 1960 if you made $5315 and a new car cost was $2600 than the car would represent 49% of your annual income, not the 30% you indicated. At the 2005 US Census rate of $67,019, if an average car today cost was $20,000 (your numbers) that would represent 30% of your income.


My error on the 30% was that I used the $8,540 average for 1969. Apparently I would have been better of in 1969 than in 1960. So yeah the percentage works out to the same here but don't forget that for a family to be a 2 income home then you most likely need 2 vehicles so you can double that auto cost and gas expense. Not nearly as many folks had two vehicles back in the 60's nor did they need them.



PapawSmith said:


> Nobody likes the prices we pay today for consumables but we quickly forget what we paid 10 years ago. We bitch about what we were paid, in wages, this year but we forget what we made 10 years ago. Everyone needs to take a good look at their Social Security statements this year as a reminder of "How it used to be".


I know that I have received no more than 25% pay increase in the last 9+ years which is a far cry from what the inflation and fuel increase has done in that time. Not to mention that I was paying less than $2,000 for medical insurance back then and now I am paying nearly $5,500 a year. So yes I do remember what I was getting paid. It is because of the tight economy that my company has not been able to keep my wage in line with cost of living increases and that they have chose to burden the employees with the brunt of the medical insurance cost.

I realize that it is not totally due to the fuel prices and the barrel price increase that we are more tightly strapped for money. There are other factors involved but those fuel issues come in to play for a LOT of the other areas as well. (i.e. groceries and any other manufactured commodity). And yes I recognize that I am better off than the folks in the large majority of other countries in the world but that doesn't mean I have to like it that my "good" life has gotten a bit tougher. I will certainly vote in the elections with these things in mind.


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## dock dabber (Mar 20, 2005)

I look at it this way, as the auto industry was forced to raise the gas milage of their cars and trucks we got somewhat a little better bang for our buck. But what did the oil companies do? They raised the price of gas to maintain profit and increase prrofit. Oil is something we have no choice with, it is the life blood of the world economy. I think all this crap about a shortage is BS, the problem as I see it ,is the fact we are not allowed to drill for it. This problem can be solved real quick in Washington DC. Will it be solved? Yes, as soon as we get the standard of livingf lowered to the point we have rid ourselves of the middle class. We should have seen this comming when we first began to talk about entering a global economy and the development of NAFTA. Just look at what has hurt the most. Oil, Healthcare and the loss of manufacturing. Now all the middle class can do is pay the high cost of health care, the higher taxes due to the loss of industry( our tax base) and that leaves oil, the main product that drives our economy. I for one believe this was the long term plan and now we are comming to the end of a well laid plan. Now that we are being force to spend our vacation in the back yard they will soon be happy. Soon you will see paid time off from work done away with , and that will be the final blow to the middle class. And I dont ever see an election, no matter who wins them solve this.


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

The oil companies are going to maintain and increase their profits no matter what. ANY company worth a hill of beans is going to. Their shareholders expect it. It's called a free market and the government should not interfere.

My family is as middle class as it gets-maybe lower middle??

Most of the people I hear griping about the economy (people that I know personally) are the same ones that won't hesitate to jump in their car or an airplane and head across the country on a whim-two or three times a year.

How bad could things be if they can afford to do that (along with their HDTV's, cable, high speed Internet, cell phones, MP3 players loaded with music, SUV's....)?

The middle class (my family) has never had it so good and I don't care what statistics say. I have eyes...and I was recently laid off of my job of 30 years and make a fraction of what I used to.

Being careful not to take this topic into the political arena....

The high price of fuel is here to stay no matter who runs the government.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> The oil companies are going to maintain and increase their profits no matter what. ANY company worth a hill of beans is going to. Their shareholders expect it. It's called a free market and the government should not interfere


i really have no problem with that thinking.i do however,get a little fired up when they regularly brag about record profits,while we're getting hit with all the increases.it's not due to supply and demand,nor is it about increased sales,since neither has changed that much.simply maintaining a reasonable profit margin doesn't seem to be enough for them.now record profits accompanied by record sales is fine,but to be increasing prices at record rates to increase profits,while not selling more product just doesn't sit well with me.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

stumpsitter said:


> Most of the people I hear griping about the economy (people that I know personally) are the same ones that won't hesitate to jump in their car or an airplane and head across the country on a whim-two or three times a year.
> 
> How bad could things be if they can afford to do that (along with their HDTV's, cable, high speed Internet, cell phones, MP3 players loaded with music, SUV's....)?
> 
> The middle class (my family) has never had it so good and I don't care what statistics say. I have eyes...and I was recently laid off of my job of 30 years and make a fraction of what I used to.


There is no doubt that folks don't know what hard times means. I am too young to have lived through the real "hard times" but have heard plenty of stories. Like you said I know plenty of folks who complain about bills, gas, etc. and they own their gas guzzlers, cable, plasma TV, $200K home and plenty more. I personally don't know how they do it. I grew up with MUCH less than that to go on and have not strayed from that very far. I feel that I am able to get by but I honestly don't know how some families can. Fortunately for them they do. And oddly enough they are usually the ones who do the least complaining.

I do look forward to the time when this all heads back to a brighter outlook but it just doesn't seem to be any time in the near future. Until then I think we will all find ways to cope.



And to return to the original question. I do have gas in the boat tank and I plan to make it out fishing again this weekend.  I don't use all that much gas when I do go on my local lake so it fortunately is not a expensive hobby for me, especially since I only am driving about 10 miles to get there. I have a nice new battery for the trolling motor and will probably use it the majority of the time on the water.


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## peple of the perch (Sep 13, 2004)

Shell and I think BP came out with record proftis today, I thought it was illegal to price gouge.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> i really have no problem with that thinking.i do however,get a little fired up when they regularly brag about record profits,while we're getting hit with all the increases.it's not due to supply and demand,nor is it about increased sales,since neither has changed that much.simply maintaining a reasonable profit margin doesn't seem to be enough for them.now record profits accompanied by record sales is fine,but to be increasing prices at record rates to increase profits,while not selling more product just doesn't sit well with me.


Prices certainly do depend on supply and demand.

China is becoming one of the worlds largest consumers of oil. China has had a great impact on the price of oil in recent years, as supply is shrinking.

Did anyone here about http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=61488

Your high food prices are coming partly from high fuel prices, but also are coming from "alternative" fuels. This is simple supply and demand too. There is becoming more demand for corn, so ofcourse prices are on the increase. "Alternative" fuel is the brain child of global warming, which is completely bogus, as a recent study found out. But, that's another rant.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

The internet will be full in the near future according to AT&T I forgot where I read the article, I think I'll be moving out to califorie I hear they still have some internets out there. And this is how you guys are spending this precious resource, for shame...


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

This link is a year old, and wasn't the one I was looking for, but will do.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/09/business/main2779533.shtml



> But the state Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection says those deals violate Wisconsin's Unfair Sales Act, which requires stations to sell gas for about 9.2 percent more than the wholesale price.
> 
> Bhandari said he received a letter from the state auditor last month saying the state would sue him if he did not raise his prices. The state could penalize him for each discounted gallon he sold, with the fine determined by a judge.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

peple of the perch said:


> Shell and I think BP came out with record proftis today, I thought it was illegal to price gouge.


Profits does not mean gouging.

Can you explain your thoughts?


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Do you see the connection?


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> Prices certainly do depend on supply and demand


i never said different.what i said is i'm not buying that as the sole reason for what's going on lately.the problem(again) that i have is hiking prices for whatever reason,to increase the bottom line.record profits are coming from just that.someone is having their cake and eating it too.
would you like it if you found the $30 reel you bought today,jumped to $50 next week,and the tackle shop told you they decided that 20% profit wasn't good enough right now,so they decided to make 40% since you and other people just have to have that reel?
if you can explain to me the logic in that,i'm all ears.
i have no problem with price increases due to increased cost,or making a reasonable profit.but when people seek to increase their profit by taking advantage of circumstances,that is wrong.
to jump from 60 to 120 bucks a barrel for oil in the short time it has,cannot be tied completely to supply/demand either.maybe some like the taste of that koolade but i'm not drinking it.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

I think it's safe to say when you are taking in record profits during a recession your not playing by the corporate responsibility rules. Which may be one of the problems in the as business ethics and corporate responsibility take a downward spiral(see enron, Haliburton, Microsoft). To clear it up corporate responsibility is the train of thought that in a capitalist market corporations gain from the community so they "Should" have a large stake in the upkeep and welfare of the community, IE "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Therefore under this theory a responsible corporation would not be posting record profits while the market is suffering a recession, erm, "slow economy".


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

peple of the perch said:


> Shell and I think BP came out with record proftis today, I thought it was illegal to price gouge.


Even if the government wanted to investigate 'price gouging' with the oil companies, they couldn't do much but remove incentives since these are no longer US companies, they're international conglomerates. Once Sohio sold to BP, the roots were no longer in the states. Now that they have different countries that use up even more demand than the US, any action by folks banding together or the government doing something has less effect than in the past when we where the biggest user. We are now a part of a bigger picture, like the UK and canada were to US in past decades.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> i never said different.what i said is i'm not buying that as the sole reason for what's going on lately.the problem(again) that i have is hiking prices for whatever reason,to increase the bottom line.record profits are coming from just that.someone is having their cake and eating it too.
> would you like it if you found the $30 reel you bought today,jumped to $50 next week,and the tackle shop told you they decided that 20% profit wasn't good enough right now,so they decided to make 40% since you and other people just have to have that reel?
> if you can explain to me the logic in that,i'm all ears.
> i have no problem with price increases due to increased cost,or making a reasonable profit.but when people seek to increase their profit by taking advantage of circumstances,that is wrong.
> to jump from 60 to 120 bucks a barrel for oil in the short time it has,cannot be tied completely to supply/demand either.maybe some like the taste of that koolade but i'm not drinking it.


See the chart above as to why price of fual has doubled in the last 14 months.

And I still don't see the shame in a business turning a profit....Even a "record" profit. A business is a business to make money, if a business looses money they go out of business.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

those charts speak to a whole other problem that extends way beyond oil/gas prices.and that is a topic for another discussion that is best not discussed on this site


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

athensfishin' said:


> I think it's safe to say when you are taking in record profits during a recession your not playing by the corporate responsibility rules. Which may be one of the problems in the as business ethics and corporate responsibility take a downward spiral(see enron, Haliburton, Microsoft). To clear it up corporate responsibility is the train of thought that in a capitalist market corporations gain from the community so they "Should" have a large stake in the upkeep and welfare of the community, IE "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Therefor under this theory a responsible corporation would not be posting record profits while the market is suffering a recession.


Right, and my 401k, or IRA's should be loosing money to because it's fair? It's not fair for people to make money while some are loosing?

This Sir, stinks like communism.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> those charts speak to a whole other problem that extends way beyond oil/gas prices.and that is a topic for another discussion that is best not discussed on this site


Yes, I agree partly.

But those charts show the impact on Fuel by the Dollar.

You are right, that discussion is much larger, and belongs on other forums. I just posted it to show that there is a direct connection between the two.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

MLAROSA said:


> Right, and my 401k, or IRA's should be loosing money to because we are in recession? It's not fair for people to make money while some are loosing?
> 
> This Sir, stinks like communism.


Calm down mcarthy, I'm not following your logic as your comparing your investments to corporations increasing profit margins during a recession. I see many people like to sleep during the ethics portion of business classes but ethics and responsibility are not communism they are responsible actions....


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

athensfishin' said:


> Calm down mcarthy, I'm not following your logic as your comparing your investments to corporations increasing profit margins during a recession.


This is discussion that should probably be had somewhere else too, but since you brought it up, McCarthy was right.


I'm not comparing *my* investments to cooperations turning a profit. I responding to a charge that it is against business ethics to make a profit during a recession.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> And I still don't see the shame in a business turning a profit....Even a "record" profit. A business is a business to make money, if a business looses money they go out of business.


that's because you're not seeing what i'm saying 
here ya go............................again.
record profits are fine.if they come from record sales,there's nothin wrong with that.
what is wong is when those records are set by selling the same amount of product/service for increasingly inflated prices,while claiming raising prices is only to offset costs.

example........i paid $20 for something yesterday,and sold it to you for $30,making 50% profit.
today my cost went up to $30,so to cover that,i charge you $50,increasing my profit to 66%.since you have to have my product,you have no choice.i'm sure that wouldn't bother you a bit,since you'd be happy to see me making a record profit 
personally i call it gouging and taking advantage of ciorcumstances.this applies to opec as well as oil companies.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> that's because you're not seeing what i'm saying
> here ya go............................again.
> record profits are fine.if they come from record sales,there's nothin wrong with that.
> what is wong is when those records are set by selling the same amount of product/service for increasingly inflated prices,while claiming raising prices is only to offset costs.
> ...


I believe you are seeing record sales too. Just not here in the states. Oil is a global product, that is bought world wide. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find evidence of this.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9892385-54.html



> North America and Europe are consuming less oil, but worldwide demand is still rising despite increasing prices.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

please remember to keep this as "non political" as possible.tht includes posting links to political type sites.you can suggest somewhere to look,but any such links need not be posted.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

One factor I've heard mentioned: When the real estate market tanked as an investment opportunity, speculators moved into commodities futures - food, fuel, minerals, etc. So prices are rising on speculation that prices will rise - sort of feeds on itself.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> please remember to keep this as "non political" as possible.tht includes posting links to political type sites.you can suggest somewhere to look,but any such links need not be posted.


I apologize for the link.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

FOSR said:


> One factor I've heard mentioned: When the real estate market tanked as an investment opportunity, speculators moved into commodities futures - food, fuel, minerals, etc. So prices are rising on speculation that prices will rise - sort of feeds on itself.


Yes, and ironically enough, NOW is the time to invest in property, and not commodities. 

Use the buy cheap, sell high mentality and you will prevail.

Use the buy high, sell low mentality and well....


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

no problem.i know it's easy to forget,with these discussions.
i think FOSR hit on a very good point.

also,i couldn't help notice that the last link supported my previous statement that supply/demand was not a big factor.it shows minimal increase in demand and again,addresses "speculation".

more good points from athensfishing.


> I think it's safe to say when you are taking in record profits during a recession your not playing by the corporate responsibility rules. Which may be one of the problems in the as business ethics and corporate responsibility take a downward spiral(see enron, Haliburton, Microsoft). To clear it up corporate responsibility is the train of thought that in a capitalist market corporations gain from the community so they "Should" have a large stake in the upkeep and welfare of the community, IE "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Therefore under this theory a responsible corporation would not be posting record profits while the market is suffering a recession, erm, "slow economy".


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

Oil consumption has increased in the US every quarter of every year for decades. Each year they have record profits AND they sell a record amount of gasoline. I read that consumption may have slowed a little in February.

With China entering the WTO in the 1990's and granted favored nation status, their economy has exploded, and their oil consumption has increased at an alarming rate.

India has more than doubled their consumption of oil over the last few years as well.

The US used to have some clout with OPEC. Not so much any more.

Add to that the ethanol mandates imposed the government in the 90's and you will begin to see why this is happening.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> no problem.i know it's easy to forget,with these discussions.
> i think FOSR hit on a very good point.
> 
> also,i couldn't help notice that the last link supported my previous statement that supply/demand was not a big factor.it shows minimal increase in demand and again,addresses "speculation".
> ...


Did we read the same article?

The article clearly states oil consumption is rising. Or are you saying that a few million barrels a day in demand doesn't impact price (supply) that much?


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

stumpsitter,i still can't buy the whole thing.maybe you and mlarosa can't see anything wrong with the below scenario,but i sure do.though it's only hypothetical,it has been basically what is happening


> example........i paid $20 for something yesterday,and sold it to you for $30,making 50% profit.
> today my cost went up to $30,so to cover that,i charge you $50,increasing my profit to 66%.since you have to have my product,you have no choice.i'm sure that wouldn't bother you a bit,since you'd be happy to see me making a record profit


and it is seriously affecting the cost of living in general,much more than normal.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> stumpsitter,i still can't buy the whole thing.maybe you and mlarosa can't see anything wrong with the below scenario,but i sure do.though it's only hypothetical,it has been basically what is happening
> and it is seriously affecting the cost of living in general,much more than normal.


In your example, you faced a 50% increase in your "cost", and only passed along a 16% increase to your consumers. Your consumers should be grateful.


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

Gasoline inventories are at their highest since March of 1993.

World oil production was up 2.5% over last year at this time.

World oil consumption only rose 2% in the same period.

In fact, world oil production is projected to be 3.3% higher in the second qtr. and 4.1% in the third. World demand is projected to only rise 1.6%!!

Demand is falling, the US consumed 4% less in January 2008 than it did in the same period last year. 

China's demand which was 10% growth per year is now at 6%. 

Exxon blames 1/3 of the recent run up in oil prices on the weak dollar, 1/3 on geopolitical uncertainty, and the rest on market speculation. 

Uncertainties due to unrest are not as relavent now as they were! 

The value of the dollar is due to mismanagment of the US economy!

Since Sept. 2003 the number of open crude and oil futures rose by 364% while demand only rose by 8.2%. The market has become more important then the physical supply in driving price. There are investment flows into the oil market that have nothing to do with the demand and supply of oil. 

Investors are hedging against the falling dollar and inflation via oil and creating the loop which feeds higher prices which contributes to higher inflation ect.., ect..,. Its a bubble that will expand until it fails. 

This is no different then the Dot.com bubble and will crash accordingly. At which point oil will settle at about $60-70 barrell. I'm sure as in the past, the price of gas will not correlate in same.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

seapro said:


> Gasoline inventories are at their highest since March of 1993.
> 
> World oil production was up 2.5% over last year at this time.
> 
> ...


You have alot of "hard" numbers. Please share a link to your research.


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

I've gone as far as I can go without bringing politics into the mix..but there were a lot of policies put in place in the 90's that are causing many of the problems that we are now having...from oil/fuel prices to the mortgage crisis.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> In your example, you faced a 50% increase in your "cost", and only passed along a 16% increase to your consumers. Your consumers should be grateful.


LOL.i think you misread.my cost went up 50% and increased your price 66% not 16%.
but if you're happy,i'm eccstatic


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

If you look at the Income statement for Exxon Mobil over the past three years you see that the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) is at the same percentage for all three years. While total revenue in rising, the costs are too in a proportional ratio. So with this being the case record PROFITS can only come from 1. More sales(ie China, India) 2. reduced operating expenses other than the cost of raw oil and its production, which is included in COGS. This isn't reflected on the income statement. The record profits have to be coming from record sales, the profit margins are the same. According to the income statement for Exxon Mobil their net income to total revenue ratio was 9.7&#37; at the end of 2005 and 10% at the end of 2007. 

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=XOM&annual


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

It's like I said before...........if you can't beat them - join them. Just get out before the bubble pops! 

This is not very different then gold right now and no one is asking about the supply and demand of it! 

Not saying this isn't a bunch of crap but if you are educated as to how to manage your way through it, you can survive the impact just like the wealthy do. If you don't act, according to the conditions, they win!! 

I know alot of people who get very wealthy during hard times. Not saying its right, just saying why allow them to, at your expense!!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> I've gone as far as I can go without bringing politics into the mix..but there were a lot of policies put in place in the 90's that are causing many of the problems that we are now having...from oil/fuel prices to the mortgage crisis


that is exactly what i said in a previous post,and why i said it is best left for somewhere besides this site


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> LOL.i think you misread.my cost went up 50&#37; and increased your price 66% not 16%.
> but if you're happy,i'm eccstatic


Your cost went up 50%.

Your profit was 50%

Your profit is now 66% a 16% increase.

Your cost went up 50%, and you increased your profits by 16%.

Are you saying that you should have only raised your price to $45 instead of $50 to maintain a 50% profit?

For you to make a record profit, you would need to sell more of your items then. And I think this is what the oil companies are doing, as Bassnpro pointed out in his link.


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

I plan on fishing Big Walnut more this year...and some local quarries. They are just down the street.

I may be forced to eat more of the fish I catch as well


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> Do you see the connection?


Yes I see the charts visually seem to satisfy the scenario but look closer at the dollars and it don't add up.

Okay, so if we use the charts above then the dollar has dropped by roughly 17&#37; over the time span of the chart. ($.75 to $.625) Which means it will take 20% more US dollars to buy a barrel of crude now as opposed to the beginning of the chart? If that is true then the dollar's impact on the increase would make the $40 barrel increase to $48. I know we have heard many reasons for the increase but the falling dollar seems small in comparison to the other factors whatever they may be in play.


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

stumpsitter said:


> I've gone as far as I can go without bringing politics into the mix..but there were a lot of policies put in place in the 90's that are causing many of the problems that we are now having...from oil/fuel prices to the mortgage crisis.




What were those policies? Do they impact greater then the current cost of the war? 

Not making a political statement, just asking an economic question?


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

bkr43050 said:


> Yes I see the charts visually seem to satisfy the scenario but look closer at the dollars and it don't add up.
> 
> Okay, so if we use the charts above then the dollar has dropped by roughly 17% over the time span of the chart. ($.75 to $.625) Which means it will take 20% more US dollars to buy a barrel of crude now as opposed to the beginning of the chart? If that is true then the dollar's impact on the increase would make the $40 barrel increase to $48. I know we have heard many reasons for the increase but the falling dollar seems small in comparison to the other factors whatever they may be in play.


The falling dollar is just one important part of the picture.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

stumpsitter,i'm with you.i ran out of filets way to soon last year,so i'm hoping to put more away this year as a hedge 
hopefully i'll get a few more crappie trips in before the spawn is over.then if i'm lucky,i'll add some eyes


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> The falling dollar is just one important part of the picture.


Yes but the point I am making is that it is a much smaller part than whatever else contributed to the nearly tripled cost. If our dollar had stayed on par with the Euro over that period of time we would still be paying around $95 per barrel.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

bkr43050 said:


> Yes but the point I am making is that it is a much smaller part than whatever else contributed to the nearly tripled cost. If our dollar had stayed on par with the Euro over that period of time we would still be paying around $95 per barrel.


Demand & investors using commodities (oil, grain, gold, silver etc etc) as a hedge against inflation and the falling dollar.

Any 1 of these let alone a combination of the three would cause inflated fuel prices.


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

Face it, we're doomed. Grow a garden...become a hunter-gatherer


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

I'm curious, does ethanol production have a lot to do with all this?

I believe that because of gov. subsidies to grow corn, less folks are growing grain, which is driving the price of beer up (among other admittedly more important things). 

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE BEER?


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

stumpsitter said:


> Face it, we're doomed. Grow a garden...become a hunter-gatherer


I think this is more true than you think. In fact this year me and the fiance did decide to start a garden, I have some nice tomato plants popping up, and I have started to keep more fish. I usually do not keep fish but this year I keep about a third of my catches so far.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Bassnpro1 hit it right on the head, current record profits are a result of record sales values. Profit margines are the same today as they were when the major oil companies were on the brink of default in years past. (Noe one felt bad for them when they were losing, but we all hate them now when they do well)
On another note about 30% of the oil profits for Exxon, for example, are realized in US sales. Last year they showed a profit of $40m about $12m of which came from sales in the US. On that same fuel sold here that Exxon made $12m on, the Federal Government made about $20m in sales taxes at the pump plus 37% of Exxon's US profits, about another $4.5m. Makes it kind of easy to see why the Fed doesn't intervene.
Also on profit margines I would like to add this. We in construction tend to strive for the same 10% profit margine as the oil companies (as do most industries). If we do 5 or 6 projects in the $500,000 range and realize about $50,000 on each and thats acceptable. Then we do a project for $5,000,000 and realize $500,000 are we now thieves? Did we not expend 10 times the effort, risk, and dillegence to complete the larger project than the smallers? Thats how business works, you attempt to maintain a steady profit margine on what you sell. If the value and/or volumn of what you sell increases tenfold than so should your profit.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I will develop a process to make gasoline from distilled junk mail mash, and my future will be secure.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

FOSR said:


> I will develop a process to make gasoline from distilled junk mail mash, and my future will be secure.



 Like the trash burning power plant?

To bad that didn't work out....


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

At the event of trying to enlighten the mood a bit. I say we combine all of MLAROSA's post and use them as gas. I'm sure they will combust into flames quite easily.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Glad I can contribute


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## kennedy327 (Jul 12, 2006)

Hi gas prices are actually making me fish more. I fish close to home and off the bank. But the reason its making me fish more is because I used to race mx instead of fish all the time. But I cant afford to put $50 into my truck for the trip to the track and back, plus a $8 bottle of premix, 5 gallons of 94oct, and then $20 gate fee to ride. This is just practice, add another $50 for an actual race day.


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## mrtwister_jbo (Apr 7, 2004)

hit $3.65 in steubenville 2day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
twister


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## RareVos (Jul 29, 2007)

PapawSmith said:


> Bassnpro1 hit it right on the head, current record profits are a result of record sales values. Profit margines are the same today as they were when the major oil companies were on the brink of default in years past. (Noe one felt bad for them when they were losing, but we all hate them now when they do well)
> On another note about 30% of the oil profits for Exxon, for example, are realized in US sales. Last year they showed a profit of $40m about $12m of which came from sales in the US. On that same fuel sold here that Exxon made $12m on, the Federal Government made about $20m in sales taxes at the pump plus 37% of Exxon's US profits, about another $4.5m. Makes it kind of easy to see why the Fed doesn't intervene.
> Also on profit margines I would like to add this. We in construction tend to strive for the same 10% profit margine as the oil companies (as do most industries). If we do 5 or 6 projects in the $500,000 range and realize about $50,000 on each and thats acceptable. Then we do a project for $5,000,000 and realize $500,000 are we now thieves? Did we not expend 10 times the effort, risk, and dillegence to complete the larger project than the smallers? Thats how business works, you attempt to maintain a steady profit margine on what you sell. If the value and/or volumn of what you sell increases tenfold than so should your profit.


Firstly, you are mistaking your "m" (indicating millions) for "b" (indicating billions). In the first quarter of last fiscal year, Exxon posted a 50% rise in profit, while revenues fell 2%. Demand for gasoline in the US grew 1.7%. The average US profit margin per barrel of oil refined grew 37%. 

Not trying to inject any editorial into these numbers, just pointing out that your statements are factually incorrect.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

RareVos said:


> Firstly, you are mistaking your "m" (indicating millions) for "b" (indicating billions). In the first quarter of last fiscal year, Exxon posted a 50% rise in profit, while revenues fell 2%. Demand for gasoline in the US grew 1.7%. The average US profit margin per barrel of oil refined grew 37%.
> 
> Not trying to inject any editorial into these numbers, just pointing out that your statements are factually incorrect.


 
That may be true for the first quarter. If you look at the income statement in the link I posted the profit margins remained the same. Revenues did indeed rise over the last three years, as did costs. The first quarter information you have must have been an anomaly or only the US figure not a worldwide number.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> The first quarter information you have must have been an anomaly or only the US figure not a worldwide number.


i'm really not concened about the worldwide number.since we're talking about u.s. problems,those numbers seem to prove that their profits off the american market have been way up,while demand has been relatively unchanged,which was the original point.wjether it's one quarter doesn't really matter.if they operate on a "standard" 10% margin,and fall short at times,that's the cost of business.they can't just jack prices on a whim,to cover themselves.
i still see no legitimate reason for prices jumping around the way they do.note, i said "legitimate".sure tere are reasons,but..........
i saw gas at 3.45 two days ago at one place,while others were 356.today i see 3.65.maybe they're just trying to make us so dizzy watching the yo-yo tht we won't have a clue 
i'm not saying it's all the oil companies.opec is sure doing their share.and the speculators seem to be nothing more than gamblers who profit when they win,but don't have to cover their bet when they lose.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm thinking of getting a 5-gallon gas can as a stash to keep at home.

I have one of those customer cards for Giant Eagle stores, and I can get a discount on gas for the money I spend in the store (20 cents/gallon for every $50). There is a 30-gallon limit on the deal. But I drive an Outback that only takes 15 gallons when it's on vapor, so I could make better use of the deal if I could get that price break on five more gallons ... or ten more ... anyway it could also help to ride out the occasional price spike when there's some global disaster like a Scottish pipeline worker strike (which is the most recent excuse I heard).


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

At one point when the gas prices were rising it seemed the biggest factor being cited was not the barrel price impact but rather the refinery cost and supply issue from the refineries. This coincided with a couple of damaged refineries from hurricanes. We made it through last hurricane season without any hurricane damages to the refineries which they said could cause even higher prices if it occurred. Now that doesn't seem to be part of the explanation. Now they are back to the barrel price being the major issue, along with the US dollar. I just feel as a consumer that none of the explanations seem to fully satisfy the question. Should the barrel price drop at any point I don't feel very confident that the gas prices will follow.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

FOSR said:


> I'm thinking of getting a 5-gallon gas can as a stash to keep at home.
> 
> I have one of those customer cards for Giant Eagle stores, and I can get a discount on gas for the money I spend in the store (20 cents/gallon for every $50). There is a 30-gallon limit on the deal. But I drive an Outback that only takes 15 gallons when it's on vapor, so I could make better use of the deal if I could get that price break on five more gallons ... or ten more ... anyway it could also help to ride out the occasional price spike when there's some global disaster like a Scottish pipeline worker strike (which is the most recent excuse I heard).


That is a great idea to use gas cans. Another idea is to buy the pre-pay cards when possible as well. You can save 2&#37; or more on those. That doesn't sound like much but another 7, 8, or more cents off always helps. After all think about our reaction when it jumps that much in price.


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## ltfd596 (Apr 15, 2005)

I am going to add my .02. I work at a refinery in addition to my work at the FD.

The cost of Crude oil ber bbl (right now roughly $117.00/bbl) is what we pay the suppliers. So as the price of crude rises, we have to increase the price of our gas. Right now with crude being over a hondred dollars a barrel, our margins are pretty slim. We benifit the most when the crude is around the $80.00 mark. I cannot explain why, it is what it is.

The funny thing is that my refinery runs only local crude (wells from PA, WV, and OH) and we are still paying the OPEC set price. I can somewhat understand why crude from the middle east is rising, but I cannot explain why our domestic crude is so high.

Yes, we have had some banner years for profits, but that was 1-2 years ago. We are not going to be making record profits this year, because the crude oil prices is too high, in addition to the price of our utilities. 

I don't understand economics, and to be honest, I don't think I ever will. But I do know that everybody, everywhere is feeling the effect of the high cost of EVERYTHING.


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## cheezemm2 (Apr 7, 2004)

Step 1: Fill up 5, 50 gallon drums @$3.65/gallon
Step 2: Wait 1 month
Step 3: Sell gas for $4.50 when it hits $5
Step 4: PROFIT!

Please do not acutally go out and do this! I am making no claims to the legality of these actions and by reading this post you are accepting liability 

All very good economic points...other things to address.

a) Memorial Day will be the biggest b*&#% session ever because gas will be hovering around $4
b) Prices won't fall until speculation gets out of the market and people in general learn that you don't need to drive to get your mail
c) Alternative energy is a long way off, so get used to it
d) We're still not paying what Europe pays, but then again we don't have good mass-transit transportation. Try to get out to Easton from downtown columbus, you better take some lunesta and wake up when you finally get there
e) Arbitrage? Sure!!!!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> i'm really not concened about the worldwide number.since we're talking about u.s. problems,those numbers seem to prove that their profits off the american market have been way up,while demand has been relatively unchanged,which was the original point.wjether it's one quarter doesn't really matter.if they operate on a "standard" 10% margin,and fall short at times,that's the cost of business.they can't just jack prices on a whim,to cover themselves.
> i still see no legitimate reason for prices jumping around the way they do.note, i said "legitimate".sure tere are reasons,but..........
> i saw gas at 3.45 two days ago at one place,while others were 356.today i see 3.65.maybe they're just trying to make us so dizzy watching the yo-yo tht we won't have a clue
> i'm not saying it's all the oil companies.opec is sure doing their share.and the speculators seem to be nothing more than gamblers who profit when they win,but don't have to cover their bet when they lose.


You need to be concerned with the world wide consumption. Oil is a World Wide product, that is for the most part imported. And the global demand for oil is on the rise.

It is also the "cost of business" to make a profit. What you are saying is it's ok to for a business to loose money, but you see no reason for them to profit?

Investors certainly do cover their bets when they loose. Buying a barrel of oil is much like placing a bet in black jack. If you loose, you loose. The difference is oil will "always" be worth something. You don't loose all of your bet. But if you buy oil at $100 and the price falls to $80, you certainly do loose $20. I don't understand your statement they don't have to cover their bet if they loose.


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

What I don't understand and I lease land for oil & gas exploration, is why we don't tap into our own reserves. 
Ohio is the 5th largest producer of oil in the nation. The nation has enough oil to last us 200 years. 
Canada can produce oil from their oil sand (Suncor) that would be enough oil to feed the Americas for the nest 200 years. (North & South). 
Why are we dependent on OPEC oil? Yes, it is not a replenishable (sp?) supply but we can't figure out an alternative in 200 years??


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

i refuse to continue because my head is spinning.seems like some people can't interpret what i actually say,and i really don't know how to put it any simpler


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

ltfd596 said:


> I am going to add my .02. I work at a refinery in addition to my work at the FD.
> 
> The cost of Crude oil ber bbl (right now roughly $117.00/bbl) is what we pay the suppliers. So as the price of crude rises, we have to increase the price of our gas. Right now with crude being over a hondred dollars a barrel, our margins are pretty slim. We benifit the most when the crude is around the $80.00 mark. I cannot explain why, it is what it is.
> 
> ...


Thaks for your input. It's nice to have someone actually in the business speak.

Just a couple questions for you, I've always wanted to hear from the people who work the refineries.

1) What is the cost to refine 1 barrel of crude oil?

2) How much of each "fuel" do you get from one barrel of crude? 

I have heard the calculation is something like 20 gallons of gasoline, 2 gallons of jet fuel, 10-15 gallons of diesel fuel, and some heating fuel. Something like this?

And also a barrel of crude oil is 42 gallons, right? Not 55 gallon drum like some may assume?


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

seapro said:


> What I don't understand and I lease land for oil & gas exploration, is why we don't tap into our own reserves.
> Ohio is the 5th largest producer of oil in the nation. The nation has enough oil to last us 200 years.
> Canada can produce oil from their oil sand (Suncor) that would be enough oil to feed the Americas for the nest 200 years. (North & South).
> Why are we dependent on OPEC oil? Yes, it is not a replenishable (sp?) supply but we can't figure out an alternative in 200 years??


I agree, however I have read somewhere that Suncor, wouldn't be profitable. To seperate the oil from sand would be to costly to use the oil for the time being.

As far as drilling in our own country, I completely agree with you. 

The reason we don't or "can't" drill in our own soil is very political, and I've been warned a couple times allready in this thread.  But you can google it and read for yourself.

I also read somewhere recently that Jed Calmpit (sp?) (from the beverly hillbillies) would have never struck it rich today. He would have been fined and locked up in jail, for spilling oil on the land.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> 2) How much of each "fuel" do you get from one barrel of crude?
> 
> I have heard the calculation is something like 20 gallons of gasoline, 2 gallons of jet fuel, 10-15 gallons of diesel fuel, and some heating fuel. Something like this?
> 
> And also a barrel of crude oil is 42 gallons, right? Not 55 gallon drum like some may assume?


Here is the breakdown according to one source.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/gas06/gasoline.htm


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## ltfd596 (Apr 15, 2005)

MLAROSA said:


> Thaks for your input. It's nice to have someone actually in the business speak.
> 
> Just a couple questions for you, I've always wanted to hear from the people who work the refineries.
> 
> ...


My refinery is a little different than most. For the siple fact is that we are a "specialty oil" refinery. Yes, We make gasoline.... but for us, it is a by product. We mainly focus on Lube oils, (motor oil, transmission oil...ect.). 

the crude gets separated by boiling point or distallation. The lighter stuff gets made into gasoline, kerosene, and diesel. the middle "cut" is your lubes and the bottoms are resins, asphalt, and other junk. Also, since we run a parafinnic crude, we strip out wax, which is refined and sent to another place where they use it to make cosmetics, food grade stuff, and in some cases pharmacuticals.

I can't give you a "cost" ber bbl because it changes depending on what cut we are focusing on. Like I said earlier, we primarily focus on the Lube oils. Which is profitable, but the market is not as lucrative because the customers are not as plentiful as gas users.

Gasoline itself is not very expensive to make. It actually requires less refining that diesel. That is why diesel is more $ than gasoline. It used ot be cheaper because there was less demand for it, but not anymore.

you figures on who much fuel from a barrel are somewhat accurate.... if we were a fuel plant. Since we are not, our cutof gasoline is a lot less. 

On a side note, we have added ethanol tanks and have been making the E-85%, but it is not selling as expected. Also another reason why diesel is so expensive is the low sulfer content that it must be now to use it. Just as a comapison. we built a Diesel Hydrotreater to make the ULSD at a mere cost of 45 million. It take a lot of diesel to make that up, but if we wanted to continue to sell diesel, we had to do it!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

ltfd596 said:


> My refinery is a little different than most. For the siple fact is that we are a "specialty oil" refinery. Yes, We make gasoline.... but for us, it is a by product. We mainly focus on Lube oils, (motor oil, transmission oil...ect.).
> 
> the crude gets separated by boiling point or distallation. The lighter stuff gets made into gasoline, kerosene, and diesel. the middle "cut" is your lubes and the bottoms are resins, asphalt, and other junk. Also, since we run a parafinnic crude, we strip out wax, which is refined and sent to another place where they use it to make cosmetics, food grade stuff, and in some cases pharmacuticals.
> 
> ...


Thanks, thats interesting


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

MLAROSA said:


> I agree, however I have read somewhere that Suncor, wouldn't be profitable. To seperate the oil from sand would be to costly to use the oil for the time being.


They become profitable at I think $90/bbl. Check their stock if you want a good investment tip. 
If we decided, as a nation, to supply ourselves via our own oil or that of Canada's though, wouldn't OPEC all of a sudden start dropping prices? If the demand leaves what happens to the supply? I don't understand our negotiating skills, seems relatively simple to me! We have 200 years to re-negotiate if need be. 
As far as politics, both sides should be ashamed of themselves!! One side wants to shut it down and the other just wants to make alot of money from it and really don't concern themselves with the effect it has as a whole. Freaking brilliant..........it's not the politicians we should blame but ourselves for allowing them to get away with it! If we stopped voting lines they wouldn't be able to control us so easily! 
Just my two cents!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

seapro said:


> They become profitable at I think $90/bbl. Check their stock if you want a good investment tip.
> If we decided, as a nation, to supply ourselves via our own oil or that of Canada's though, wouldn't OPEC all of a sudden start dropping prices? If the demand leaves what happens to the supply? I don't understand our negotiating skills, seems relatively simple to me! We have 200 years to re-negotiate if need be.
> As far as politics, both sides should be ashamed of themselves!! One side wants to shut it down and the other just wants to make alot of money from it and really don't concern themselves with the effect it has as a whole. Freaking brilliant..........it's not the politicians we should blame but ourselves for allowing them to get away with it! If we stopped voting lines they wouldn't be able to control us so easily!
> Just my two cents!


Something like 20%-30% of our oil comes from opec. It's not a huge ammount, but it's significant enough ammount to have an impact on the price.

Eh....I have a feeling I'd disagree with your poltics too.  I'm going to try real hard here misfit. You say one wants to shut it down, and I agree. You say one wants to make huge profits which I agree. I just think the "one" is the same. Go research who wants to raise your taxes (including the gas tax). Look up who doesn't want to drill with in our boarder for oil. Look up who doesn't want nuclear (the most cost efficient energy there is) energy.

I hope I have stayed with in guid lines.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Also if we compltely abandoned opec, they would still profit. They would still sell to the UK, India, China.

Honestly I think we are a thorn in opec's side.


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

My politics are that I don't like either side!! For every piece of crap one side does, so does the other!! I will have to be careful here also, as I could go on forever about the BS both of them play!! 
My politics, is that people are a PAWN, if you vote a line because one has certain views on this subject or that! 
I just wish people would vote issues and not sides. The beauty of our system, if we would just embrace it, is that we could control them and not them us! As long as they can reach us at an emotional level though, we loss.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

One thing I don't like about drilling more domestic oil: Sure it's valuable now, but won't it be even more valuable in the future? Why burn it off now like drunken sailors, and leave our great-grandchildren with empty oil fields? I say we buy someone else's oil, and learn to make do with less, and sit on our own stash for the good of the nation in the future.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

seapro said:


> My politics are that I don't like either side!! For every piece of crap one side does, so does the other!! I will have to be careful here also, as I could go on forever about the BS both of them play!!
> My politics, is that people are a PAWN, if you vote a line because one has certain views on this subject or that!
> I just wish people would vote issues and not sides. The beauty of our system, if we would just embrace it, is that we could control them and not them us! As long as they can reach us at an emotional level though, we loss.


Heh, Prehaps we agree more than I thought oiginally!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

ok..........................you gus are getting more than your two cents worth,so don't go for a dime's worth or you run the risk of having this well capped


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

FOSR said:


> One thing I don't like about drilling more domestic oil: Sure it's valuable now, but won't it be even more valuable in the future? Why burn it off now like drunken sailors, and leave our great-grandchildren with empty oil fields? I say we buy someone else's oil, and learn to make do with less, and sit on our own stash for the good of the nation in the future.


We have an estimated 200 year supply of oil. 

Thus far, "we" have only been using oil since the 1940's or roughly 65-70 years.

I think in the next 100-200 years, we can come up with an "alternative" fuel that our great great great grand children can use.

One thing is for sure, as long as there is oil the oil companies will never allow alternative fuels. Once a safe, affordable, and reliable alternative fuel is developed, kiss the oil companies good bye.

I've heard stories about carborators (sp) that have been developed that allow vehicles to get 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 even 100 mpg on gasoline. But the oil companies and auto manufactures buy the patents up.


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

misfit said:


> ok..........................you gus are getting more than your two cents worth,so don't go for a dime's worth or you run the risk of having this well capped


I was just trying to profit (prophet) will the opportunity was available. LOL


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> ok..........................you gus are getting more than your two cents worth,so don't go for a dime's worth or you run the risk of having this well capped


Atleast my puny post count is getting up.  

Took 4 years, but I finally broke 300. Whoohoo!


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

A little-known bit of history: the Oil and Gas Boom of Ohio happened when there was a rush to drill. Now the gas reserves are still there, but there isn't enough pressure to get the gas anymore.

Actually there was a second, smaller boom in the 1950s, and some old wildcatting practices made illegal out west later were still legal in Ohio.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> I was just trying to profit (prophet) will the opportunity was available. LOL


LOL.and contrary to what mlarosa thinks,i don't mind a guy trying to make a little prophet as long as they don't gouge


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

MLAROSA said:


> I've heard stories about carborators (sp) that have been developed that allow vehicles to get 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 even 100 mpg on gasoline. But the oil companies and auto manufactures buy the patents up.


I heard GM has a perpetual motion machine buried somewhere !!!!  

(seriously, someone told me this)


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

seethe303 said:


> I heard GM has a perpetual motion machine buried somewhere !!!!
> 
> (seriously, someone told me this)


Actually the story I heard was GM too.

It goes something like this here. A guy was retiring after 40? 50? years working at GM and GM was going to give him a new caddy. One of the maintence guys decided to play a prank and swap some parts on the new caddy with some "junk" laying around on shelfs.

The retired guy drove hsi caddy for a couple weeks, and noticed the gas gage wasn't working, so he took it to a shop. The mechanic at the shop noticed the "prank" parts and discovered the carborator was different then should be on there. And came to the conclusion that the carborator was giving the guys new caddy unimagineable fuel efficiency.

True story? Or BS? Who knows, but I wouldn't put it past them.

Urban Legends says it's bs.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

MLAROSA said:


> Actually the story I heard was GM too.
> 
> It goes something like this here. A guy was retiring after 40? 50? years working at GM and GM was going to give him a new caddy. One of the maintence guys decided to play a prank and swap some parts on the new caddy with some "junk" laying around on shelfs.
> 
> ...


I guess I will hit the BS switch on that one. You can't convince me that something so simple as a different design in a carburetor will yield incredible results...and nobody has figured that one out and made a million from it yet? I wouldn't put it past them to try and lock down patents on certain opportunities but I have to believe that one never keep others from cashing in, especially without raising a major raucous.

Basic physics controls the amount of energy one can get from a gallon of fuel. The carburetor can help it somewhat but assuming that cars are already using the majority of the energy potential then as the saying goes, "You can not get blood from a turnip."


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

misfit said:


> LOL.and contrary to what mlarosa thinks,i don't mind a guy trying to make a little prophet as long as they don't gouge


Our deffinition of "gouge" is just different


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

From what I heard you don't need to use oil in your cars anymore. They've come up with this new stuff called 710. If you look under the hood of your car you'll see what I'm talking about. 
http://www.hotautoweb.com/cogifs/710.jpg


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

LOL,seapro.i first learned about that from my ex wife


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

Hey, the price of lumber is down (lookin' for something here)

I may get a side of beef and put it in the freezer before prices go up even more. Anyone know a good place to buy beef?


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

I thought you guys might like to take a look at this.

http://www.oilwatchdog.org/articles/?storyId=19882&topicId=8059



> An Apache Junction, Arizona, trucking firm is fighting to stay in business in the face of *$4-a-gallon diesel by driving across the border to Mexico to buy fuel where it sells for $2 a gallon*.
> 
> 
> CNN tells the story of how Romano and Son built a 500-gallon tank to haul diesel fuel back from south of the border. They made one successful trip, but were told on their second try by border officials that they can only bring 119 gallons across at a time.
> ...


Whyw would we export fuel with the "crazy" prices we are facing?


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## stumpsitter (Jul 3, 2004)

Because it's a crazy world.


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## zpyles_00 (Dec 15, 2004)

Can't wait till the Railways are back up and runnin like they used to lol


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## zpyles_00 (Dec 15, 2004)

my hour drive to work one way everyday is really starting to suck!!!!!!


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## zpyles_00 (Dec 15, 2004)

can't buy a house closer to work becuase the economy is going to hell


any suggestions?


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

zpyles_00 said:


> can't buy a house closer to work becuase the economy is going to hell
> 
> 
> any suggestions?


Honestly now is the time to invest in property.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

To me the biggest reason for the increase in price (there are a few but I said the biggest







) is the barrel price being charged. The US dollar certainly has an impact but not to the extent that some believe it does. I had posted this on a thread we had a week or so ago.



bkr43050 said:


> Okay, so if we use the charts above then the dollar has dropped by roughly 17% over the time span of the chart. ($.75 to $.625) Which means it will take 20% more US dollars to buy a barrel of crude now as opposed to the beginning of the chart? If that is true then the dollar's impact on the increase would make the $40 barrel increase to $48. I know we have heard many reasons for the increase but the falling dollar seems small in comparison to the other factors whatever they may be in play.


I guess we can speculate as to what factors are influencing that increase but I believe that it is that they know they have us over a barrel. (pun intended) They can get $120/barrel so they will charge it. We need to eliminate our dependency on their oil. Either that will result from another source for our oil or another source of energy altogether. Until then it seems we have nothing we can do but buy gas that comes from $120+ crude.

As I said I believe that the above reason is the main one for the increase. Add to that the declining dollar and the refinery supply issue among other reasons and it makes for a pretty bleak outlook.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

> They can get $120/barrel so they will charge it.


Who is "They"?

I assume you mean the oil companies. Which you would be mistaken. Oil trades on a market, much like stocks. Buyers and sellers in that market set the prices. Basically investors much like you and me. We can buy oil futures, etf's, or cna's to invest in oil, and sell at price we want to sell at. The oil companies buy their oil based on what oil is trading for on the markets.

"They" are not responsibile for the prices we pay.

What we have is the dollar crashing, so it takes more dollars to buy the same ammount of oil. Thus smart investors are moving their money into commodities (oil, gold, silver, grain, wheat etc etc) to hedge against the falling dollar and thus disrupting supply and increasing prices.

The bottom line once again is that the oil companies profit percentages are not increasing.


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

i'm done with gasoline.. i'm going to outfit my CRV with an LPG tank and save some $$$$.. gasoline price rise everyday here so far this past 2 weeks..
went to Burma last week(before the storm hit) and got to pay $8 for a liter of diesel.. crazy ehh..


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

crappielooker said:


> i'm done with gasoline.. i'm going to outfit my CRV with an LPG tank and save some $$$$.. gasoline price rise everyday here so far this past 2 weeks..
> went to Burma last week(before the storm hit) and got to pay $8 for a liter of diesel.. crazy ehh..


 Hey crappielooker -- Do the gas stations over in Asia add .99 to the price of a gallon (liter) of gas like they do in this country? Even when gas was cheap I always considered that whole ".99" thing to be the height of arrogance.


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## BFG (Mar 29, 2006)

Maybe if we all stopped talking about how much gas costs...then the media would let it go....and less and less hype would surround the issue...


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Thanks BFG, I'll add that one to the list.

- Increased oil demand from US & Asia
- Falling US dollar
- Dwindling oil supply
- US energy policy
- Greed
- Media hype


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

hmm

http://www.yahoo.com/s/876447

Perhaps drilling in our back yard is not a good idea. Now if I could only get one of these to start near my mother-in-laws


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## rattletraprex (Sep 1, 2005)

BFG said:


> Maybe if we all stopped talking about how much gas costs...then the media would let it go....and less and less hype would surround the issue...


Ditto! I also wonder how much that plays into it.


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## athensfishin' (Aug 15, 2006)

Yeah I mean why would the media do research and report on stuff people are worried/interested/curious about. Clearly they should go back to doing reports on pointless things, I mean they are obviously not giving American Idol the attention it deserves, did you see the dude with dreadlocks screw up dylan?


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

terry.. yes, the gas stations here add those pesky nickles and dimes too.. just like in the states.. 
whoopy doooo.. I wake up to another price change.. went up again.. did the price from NY go up today ?? i think i heard $126/barrel or something..


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

The price of oil did go past $126 a barrel for a brief time Friday, but declined to just under $126 to $125.96 by market close.

This is the price of oil to be delievered in June also.


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## kennedy327 (Jul 12, 2006)

Most people just notice the cost of gas in the us. Even though we do pay less still then most other countries besides saudi arabia. Most european countrys are already paying $6 a gallon. At the same time we might still be cheaper, our economy is weaker. rising fuel cost makes the price of living go up. Everything goes up, except wages. I think the wages of the european countrys are more on track with there rising prices. The us on the other hand, has a common wage that is dropping, mostly due to the lack of good jobs and people like me having to take a job that pays a third less then your used to just so you can work.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

The high cost of oil is really going to start hitting you (us) in the pocketbooks next year after the effects ripple though the supply chain. And I'm not talking about the cost of gasoline. I'm talking about everything else you buy that replies on oil for basic feedstocks.
This is on top of another 20% across the board price increase announced by Dow Chemical earlier this year.
This is what scares me. Not gasoline.


Midland, MI - June 24, 2008
The Dow Chemical Company (NYSE: DOW) will raise the price of its products by as much as an additional 25 percent in July in an effort to offset the continuing relentless rise in the cost of energy and hydrocarbon feedstocks. 
The Company also will implement a freight surcharge of $300 per shipment by truck and $600 per shipment by rail, effective August 1. The surcharge applies to North America customers buying chemicals, hydrocarbons and plastics where Dow absorbs the freight currently (seller absorbs freight). Later this year a freight surcharge will be implemented in other geographic regions as appropriate.
Furthermore, the Company is moving ahead with plans to temporarily idle or reduce production at a number of manufacturing plants. Dow has reduced its ethylene oxide production worldwide by 25 percent, and idled 30 percent of its North America acrylic acid production. The Company also will idle 40 percent of its European styrene production capacity, and has reduced its European polystyrene production rate by 15 percent. These actions are due to the slowdown in the U.S. and European economies, and the recent surge in hydrocarbon feedstock costs.
In light of a serious decline in North American auto sales, Dows Automotive unit is announcing a series of cost reduction measures covering facilities, people and external spending. In addition, the business is in the process of divesting its paint shop sealer business and is implementing plant consolidations resulting in the closure of three production units.
In addition, Dow Building Solutions temporarily idled 20 percent of its European capacity for producing STYROFOAM insulation. Earlier this month, the Company announced plans to idle three Dow Emulsion Polymers plants representing 25 percent of North America capacity and 10 percent of European capacity. These reductions were directly related to declines in the housing and consumer sectors, as well as rising costs. 
Andrew N. Liveris, Dow chairman and CEO, described the steps as extremely unwelcome but entirely unavoidable as the global cost of oil, natural gas and hydrocarbon derivatives surge ever higher. 
The price increases we announced on May 28 helped, but they were not enough to fully cover the additional costs we are now facing. For the first half of 2008, our feedstock and energy costs are up more than 40 percent compared with the same six months of last year. Even since our last announcement, the cost of hydrocarbons has continued to rise, and that trajectory shows no sign of changing, he said. We must restore margins in our businesses, both through price increases and the reduction of operating costs at certain production facilities.
Were continuing to do all that we can to tackle this issue on multiple fronts. We improved energy efficiency by 22 percent from 1995 to 2005 and are targeting another 25 percent by 2015. Were cutting costs significantly. We have an array of efforts around alternative energy and alternative feedstocks. Were making great progress in the implementation of a strategy that will address the issue over the medium to long term. But the staggering increases in our costs over the past few months have forced us to take these further measures in order to restore our margins.
Over the past five years, Dows bill for hydrocarbon feedstocks and energy has surged four-fold, from $8 billion in 2002 to an estimated $32 billion-plus this year.


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## pizza (Apr 4, 2008)

If only we could get rid of all the middlemen.....

This world has gotten waaaaaay tooooooo complex.....

But we are a wasteful country and this is a good wake up call. We need to think conservation rather than more bigger more more more more bigger more more more stuff stuff stuff stuff more bigger stuff. We need to think preventive medicine rather than "I need a new drug".....


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## SwollenGoat (Apr 13, 2005)

pizza said:


> If only we could get rid of all the middlemen.....
> 
> This world has gotten waaaaaay tooooooo complex.....
> 
> But we are a wasteful country and this is a good wake up call. We need to think conservation rather than more bigger more more more more bigger more more more stuff stuff stuff stuff more bigger stuff. We need to think preventive medicine rather than "I need a new drug".....


The world isn't more complex, its that most folks will gladly trade money for convenience. Middlemen exist so that you and I can conveniently go buy 1 bag of potatoes a few blocks away and not a 50 foot rail car full of potatoes that must be shipped in from Idaho.  

As for being wasteful in the USA, yes I can agree we are in comparison with much of the world. However, its not always an apples to apples comparison. You have to realize the the shear size of our country (Approx. 10 MILLION square km) lends itself to waste simply from people living all over and away from city centers. For example, a typical european country like Germany is roughly 350,000 square km. They have a fantastic public transit system to the point that many of them don't own cars, and they also don't have to ship freight the distances that we do here. Germany's gas is more expensive per gallon, but they buy a fraction of what we do because they only use a fraction of what we do.


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## pizza (Apr 4, 2008)

my more complex comment was in reference to these so called energy traders. I will admit I don't know how it works (as its very complex) but I just hear that a lot of the reason the price is going up is bc of speculation on the part of these guys(who are making bank off of speculation).

I have a problem with that......


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## SwollenGoat (Apr 13, 2005)

pizza said:


> my more complex comment was in reference to these so called energy traders. I will admit I don't know how it works (as its very complex) but I just hear that a lot of the reason the price is going up is bc of speculation on the part of these guys(who are making bank off of speculation).
> 
> I have a problem with that......


I agree, though I'm not any kind of expert in finances or investing. As I understand it much of the gas hike blame lies with those investing in futures. 

Don't get too mad at investors though because I've also heard much of the damage has been done by fortune 500 companies using money from their employees retirement portfolios to buy oil and commodity futures. So basically everyone working for them is making good money on their retirement funds, but getting screwed at the pump because of it. 

As I have been told, to buy futures in the stock market requires 50&#37; down at time of purchase. So to buy $10 million in shares of Pepsi Co. would cost $5 million up front. However, to buy futures on the commodity market only requires 5-10% down. So $10 million in shares of oil or corn only requires $500,000 or so. So in essence, they're buying more shares for less money down which is naturally driving up price thus resulting in larger profits. And it keeps going on and on... 

Ain't it great!?


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## pizza (Apr 4, 2008)

that is EXACTLY what I was referring to.

When I was an undergrad I went to a presentation by a company that did futures trading and the like (complex mathematical programs to speculate) and I remember thinking that kind of mentality just isn't me. I didn't have a problem with the specifics but the overall picture and how it fit into the world just didn't sit right with me.

Then again, I could never feel good about what I did if I was a landlord.

But that's just me, everyone is difn't and to each his/her own.

I'm changing careers to be a teacher, I know I will feel like I am helping to make this world a better place. 

Unlike those greedy energy traders......


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## SwollenGoat (Apr 13, 2005)

Good luck with the career change pizza. I only wish the majority of our society would give the same attention and compensation to those who educate our children as they do the flavor of the week on the radio, or the guy who putts a little white ball in a cup for millions of dollars each game.


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## pizza (Apr 4, 2008)

a quote from

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080625/pl_bloomberg/atloxvuxkb0a

"Oil Prices 

Poll respondents pin most of the blame for the 35 percent surge in gas prices over the last year on President George W. Bush, according to the poll. Almost 3 in 10 singled out Bush as the one responsible, followed by the oil companies, identified by 25 percent, and speculators, by 13 percent. Only 9 percent blamed foreign oil producers and the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries. 

The poll of 1,233 adults surveyed from June 19 to June 23 has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points. "

And thanks SG!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Yes it's ALL Bush's fault!!!!

LoL After 8 years I still love hearing that argument.

One thing to remember with spectulators there has to be people who spectulate the price of oil will decrease, in order for the people who are spectulating the price of oil will increase to purchase their contracts. It's important to remember, that if you are buying something, someone has to be selling it. Spectulation is a gamble, much like any casino game in vegas.

Unless we are talking about currency. It can, and is "made up" by banks.


[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279"]Money As Debt[/ame]

It's a long (45 mins) vid, but it's worth watching.


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