# What makes a trophy carp fishery??



## Salmonid

Ok folks, Ive been keeping up with the whole carp competitions and such and see many mentions of finding good carp waters that hold better then average sized fish. Just curious what the average sized fish is (from those of you who catch many hundreds of carp a year) and more specifically, what makes a trophy river system?? Im curious because I often catch many carp out of the Great Miami around Dayton and typically a big fish for us is one over about 7-8 lbs, the GMR is loadedwith thousands of 2-4 lb fish, in fact yesterday fishing with Mellon ( H20) at one of my winter carping hotspots, we saw schools of several hundred carp in 2 feet of water with only maybe a handful pushing above that 7-8 lb mark and no monsters. We watched as one of my other friends caught 5 with the fly rod whiloe we fished for cats to see if what brought the carp to this area would also bring cats, (no avail)

When I hear you guys talking about big fish, Im pretty sure the GMR doesnt qualify but im curious on the experts thoughts here.

Thanks, Salmonid


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## BuckeyeFishinNut

I think if you can average about 15-17 lbs a carp I think you are doing pretty well. Ya got to figure for every 20 lber there is a 10-12 lber. I would say that some of the areas we fish average that 15-17 lb average but some of the spots on the Ohio River might only average 10-12 lbs per carp. Although, on the Ohio River we have averaged 100 carp a day easily. I can tell you that most of the spots we fish we rarely catch carp under 5 lbs but sometimes we may not catch one of 15 lbs out of those same spots. It just seems like they arent in those areas but there are times that bigger ones move in. I know over this past year we landed a good # over 20 lbs with very few under 5 lbs.

Jake


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## Salmonid

One more thing, I have caught at least a hundred carp on the GMR and only seen 1 mirror, so there definately is not a healthy population of them in the south Dayton area I fish. Of course that could always change by moving to other spots but in my area, lots of dinks, almost a stunted population because of the numbers.

I would love to hit one of these spots and get an honest 20 lb carp, that would be way sweet! Do you guys ever sight fish to these fish, it seems the bigger better fish I land are usually sight fished to with light lines and on the flyrod. Blind fishing always gets me smaller fish, ( less then 5 lbs) 
Any correletion ( size wise) to fish you see vs those you dont? 

Salmonid


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## BuckeyeFishinNut

I rarely stalk carp. That might be the way i find a new spot but I dont fish for them that way. I get out on the river bank and start walking, looking for signs of carp and looking for decent bank access to get at them. As far as the mirrors go, we figured we catch a mirror about 1 in every 100. Some spots are better and some are worse. We have 1 spot that has a nice population of mirrors and there are other areas where we have never caught a mirror out of. They just seem to like certain areas better.

Jake


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## PAYARA

Salmonoid--There is NO river system in Ohio that can be classed
as a BIG fish water.The only rivers where you might have a good
chance at BIG fish consistantly are in the are the last stretches 
of Lake Erie drainage rivers.But when it comes to an inland river 
in OH,....BIG carp will be slim to none and very rare! Same goes
for the Ohio River!..ALL the rivers in Ohio have a small average
size of carp compared to lakes......Its FACT!

Mirrors do not prefer certin areas over others.The abundace or
lack of mirrors in a water is decided by the genes with in a stock
of carp.I fish lakes where half the population of carp appear to be
mirrors.I fish waters where there are few mirrors.And waters where
I have never seen a mirror!There are of course waters(not found any
in OH) where the entire stock of carp are mirrors.Its all about the
genes!

I have found that in Ohio the average sized carp for most waters I
have fished is around 8-10lb.Some waters larger,some waters smaller!
Most waters do have a few larger fish scattered around,here and there.
There are waters where the carp average 20lb+.Waters where I have
had 7 carp over 20lb in a single session!Waters were I haven't had a
carp smaller than 20lb.But then again theres a water where I haven't
caught a carp bigger than 3lb in dozens of fish.I think any water with
an average of 12-16lb with a number of fish larger caught fairly often,
it can be considered an above average fishery for OH.

I stalk fish all the time in Summer.Its my prefered method,really.
I had some good fish while stalking.I had two 20's in a single 
session this year while stalking.What makes stalking great is
the fact that you can select what fish you want to target.
Naturaly we go for the largest carp we see or can fish to
the most effectively.Its really the only sure fire method
to consistantly catch BIG carp.


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## RiverRat

There are NO big fish in Ohio, Gregs right.....

I f you want big carp carp move to Texas or N.Y.

Scott


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## PAYARA

Scott,where did I state that there is no big fish in OH?


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## BottomBouncer

I didn't read all the above, just the topic. I think an abundant variety of food. Crayfish, shellfish, vegetation.....clean, clear water is good. I know of a few quarries that hold a lot of fish and some monsters as well.


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## crappielooker

lots of food is good.. add some predator fish to thin out the little ones into the mix.. then you are getting there..


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## PAYARA

LESS carp dose seem to equal LARGER carp!


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## The Kernel

PAYARA said:


> LESS carp dose seem to equal LARGER carp!



MOGADORE!!! There has to be massive carp in there...it fits all known criteria!


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## PAYARA

Mogadore--what is that? I have never heard of such a place...


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## RiverRat

I personally think better chances of catching bigger carp are from the rivers, not lakes.


I'll stick to them myself.

The original question.."what makes a trophy carp fishery?"
I'd say trophy sized carp make it a trophy fishery...simple as that...lol.

Scott


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## johnboy111711

kernel...fished mogadore many years and all I have seen is a bunch of small carp, except for the grassies...tried fishin for em and all i got were a few in the 3lb range...it seemed alot like pymy


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## The Kernel

johnboy111711 said:


> kernel...fished mogadore many years and all I have seen is a bunch of small carp, except for the grassies...tried fishin for em and all i got were a few in the 3lb range...it seemed alot like pymy


Have you ever heard of anyone catching a good sized carp down there (apart from the grassers)? Were you fishing for carp? Ever heard any stories about people losing monsters there???


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## PAYARA

Theres NO carp what so ever in Mogadore!


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## RiverRat

Ok, ive got some time finally to talk about this subject.

First off to narrow down which waters would have the best chance at producing BIG carp, im talking a good number of 30+ lb carp.
First you need size..room for carp to grow.
Next food, a large crayfish, snail and vegitation base.
Depth, big carp need deeper cooler water. 
And YES you need predators to keep the numbers in check, the best carp killers are Flatheads and Muskys...the bigger the avg. size of predators and numbers of them the better...a 40+ lb flathead can easily eat a 5-7 lb carp.


NO ONE in here can say that they have spent years carp fishing a big lake and determined it to hold only small carp. Fishing a lake or river a dozen times does not mean that water holds only small fish, you would need to put serious time fishing it consistantly ...and not just the easy access areas either. If i was a lake angler , i would have a boat for sure and i would have good maps of the lake and would try all the best looking areas over and over, only then could you determine it to be a small fish water.

You would need to spend 10 yrs. fishing a stretch of the Ohio river to unlock big fish holding areas and get consistant on them....its not like fishing a 10 acre or less lake...giveing an opinion of a water such as the massive Ohio river only after a dozen or so trips dont mean squat!! Many things like LOCATION, bait choice, time of year , weather factor in success..not chucking a rod out and catching 10 lb carp all day and saying the WHOLE water holds small fish..thats just stupid!

I think on most waters the bigger fish never come in close enough for most bank anglers to catch...i think the more numorus smaller fish stay closer to the bank.
Like a lot of species, bigger fish dont follow the patterns of smaller fish, that way they dont compete with each other. If all carp did the same thing and had the same habits and fed on the same things, all our waters would never produce carp over 20 lbs.

I think just like other species largest specimens, they stay deeper, if they do spawn its out on humps or bars out away from shore and have a different diet than the more numorous fish of their species. I think thats why more of the larger carp have not been carp out of some of our waters because we bank anglers are limited to where we can fish and compared to the size of some of our waters only get to fish 1% of the water effectively.

Catching a big carp out of a river has to be harder to a point because i think the carp populations thrive much better in these type of enviroments...add to that the size of the Ohio river and i truthfully think catching a 40+ lb carp will take time to unlock the secrets that size of a river holds.
I know 30+ is possible out of a med. size river like the Scioto and i know it holds 40+ lbers. But unless you've spent 100' and 100's of hours on that river like i have, most cant fathom its potential...trust me ive seen them with my own 2 eyes, they are there, both common and Buffalo.

Since none of us have a degree in carp biology and have studied their habits and such for 10's of years, we can all assume what we want and we each have our own therories......thats the only FACT in this thread .

Scott


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## PAYARA

If it takes 10 years to find the BIG carp in the Ohio River or
anywere for that matter,it is NOT a trophy carp fishery!

If one can not catch a singal 20lb specimen in a dozen sessions
(in which you absoluty hualed)then the odds are theres NOT many 
there!How many carp have you had from the OH river of 20lbs In all 
these 100+ fish sessions you have had?This river is just not in the
same class as other rivers in this country.Think about it,If you made
10 trips to the St.Larry,Patomic,Hudson,ect how many carp of
20lb or larger do think would turn up in a 100+ fish session???

How many carp of 20lb+ would come out of the Scioto in a 100+
fish session???Iam willing to bet..A LOT more than the Ohio,and
that IS sad!The Ohio can't give up a singal 20 in HUNDREDS of 
fish!Thats not what I would call big fish potential and certinly
NOT a trophy carp water.If a BIG carp is found in the OH river
there will be NOTHING consistant about it


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## RiverRat

Greg, the location we fished at was a NUMBERS spot that holds 1000's of the more numerous fish....the typical shallow mud flat that all these numerous smaller carp and buffalo feed on...thats all.
But in a 5 mile ride i can put you on the deepest water in that area(no not the dam) and im willing to bet THAT is the best place to put a big carp on the bank in that area.
But the area is out east...as you go down the river each "pool" between dams gets deeper all the way to the Mississippi river...look at the normal water levels at Meldahl compared to Pike island...its almost twice as deep..they also have 50'+ holes and the river gets wider....better chance at BIG carp than were we fish.

Again the same can be said in a smaller scale on the scioto river...the northern stretches are shallower and hold unlimited numbers of smaller carp(under 20 lbs)....but 30 miles south the river deepens and i rarely catch carp under 8-9 lbs. with theb avg. going up to 16-18 lbs.
But thats still SMALL when we are talking carp...20 lbs. aint nothin, true BIG carp are 30+ lbs with relative top end size being 40-50 lbs. But how many have caught fish that are truely BIG..almost all the guys in here have a PB carp in the 20's....but rare is the 30+ lber...why? Is it completely because some have no big fish waters..could be, but how do they truely know that their home water doesnt have out of 10,000 carp a 1% of them are'nt 30+?????? You wouldnt know unless you caught every carp out of that water, and we all know what they chance of that is.

See i dont think some guys understand just how many carp can be in a say 100 acre lake.....or a 200 acre lake....no one knows, but i bet we all would be shocked to know the real numbers, because if you did know the true numbers, then you'd understand why your chances of catching a big fish is hard...even if a big water held 15,000 carp total and out of number there were 200 that were 30+.....whats your odds, specially if they dont hol i "typical" know carp spots??? Im telling ya the big fish are there, i just think a change in "game plan" is in order.

Again this is the same discussion we had not long ago.....

Scott


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## RiverRat

The St. Larry is an oddity, there is no other sea run river of that size here to compare it too..is it the vast size that boosts their carp to grow to such a bigger avg. size? Is it the food base? Is is something that is not found in any other river...or is it?
How many carp anglers visit the St. Larry every year? How many carp anglers visit the Mississippi river or Misouri or Ohio river targeting carp?? Your telling me that i can go ANYWHERE up and down the Larry and catch big carp all day long? Or is it contained in a certain stretch that holds these big fish.....are there no small fish caught at all under 10 lbs?....hmm then if NOT then i would say the chances are the area that has now grown popular is a big fish area...same can be on a certain pool of the Ohio river too then?

See ya just cant wrap your head around the thought of big wild fish here in Ohio because no one has caught them....but see 2 of the most popular waters in the USA that contain big avg. carp and believe its an ood thing and cant happen here. The only reason we all know about those places is because some one (or more) put in countless hours and discovered them....NO ONE has dont that here, most sit around waiting for the other guy to find the big fish water and save themselfs the hassel, time and effort...so they can just cash in on someone else find.


Trust me, big carp are all around us and i will find them....but will anyone know the waters name or see it posted all over the internet.....probably NOT!!!!!!!!

Good luck guys, i know i'd be pretty sad thinking there are no big fish around us and that i'd be stuck with only 20 lbers to amuse me for the rest of my days.....i'll be out trying for my river 40 lber....i got one at 34, so thats only 6 lbs shy of my goal...maybe next year....im not given up the dream.

Scott


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## johnboy111711

honestly, there really doesn't seem like much capr action, bot saying i haven't seen a few, but in general, if there was a more sizeable pop. I am sure i'd have seen or hooked one.


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## crappielooker

LOL.. i remember someone PMing me about hitting some easy access spots on a lake, it said something about not having to hike out far and be able to set up his gear.. instead of hikin a mile or so with his stuff.. hmm.. i guess them easy access spot ain't bad afterall..lolol.. 
it doesn't matter how far you hike in, all that matters is what's laying in yer net.. LOLOL..
and btw, how do you know that easy access spots dont hold big carp?? are u a carp?


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## crappielooker

heh heh.. just to clarify the last post abit.. i didn't want to sound like an a-hole.. but couldn't help it..  
again, i have said this to many people before and will say it again here..
given the right water that hold carp.. if you spend enough time on the bank, any good looking waters around here will eventually gives you nice size carp.. its about how long can you stand weeding out those little ones..


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## Salmonid

Ok already, it seems I have indeed opened the preverbial "Can of Corn" here. 
I hate to see the bickering but through all of this, it seems the following is what you all have answered for me.

Fact, there is no proven advantage over lakes vs large river systems to which holds bigger fish, typicaly its a personal opinion.

Fact, Some rivers and some lakes seem to hold a higher weight fish with there diversity, just like some rivers are better and hold more bigger smallies then others, each water body has a place where the carp fit into the ecosystem, and some places, there is more food, less pressure, more spawning habitat etc. So within each lake or river system, different places within that certainly will hold some large carp. just finding them. Along the same lines, Im sure bass lakes like Ceasers Creek probably holds way more 6-7 lb largemeouth then most could ever imagine, but finding them is the key.

Fact, It seems that if Im catching lots of smaller fish, then Ishould change tactics, change pools, change structures, etc. until I find bigger fish.

Fact, It seems like most folks consider a 20 lber to be a really nice large quality fish, while a 30 lb fish is a rare traphy and anything over 40 would be extraordinary and really something to whoop it up over.

With all this said, if you have something important to say, speak it but the bickering between river vs lake is off topic. 

Many thanks for all the info, as I hope to get into a few bigger fish this spring.

Salmonid


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## BottomBouncer

What about the Potomac River?

Anyways, I gotta agree with the shallow water, small fish theory.

Just look at all the fish you see shallow... Small sunfish, bass, small carp.... Main reason is to avoid the predators. They all basically feed on the same thing...but the little fish will be fed on if they don't stay shallow. At the last cosi event, the two biggest fish came from way out in the middle. I realize that that is COSI and the water really isn't that deep and there are not many predators. However, mushi did catch a flatty out of the same stretch of water.....

I think you'd have to fish much further out with one rod while another is in closer. Chum both areas and fish the furthest with a larger bait with more natural flavorings.....not some jello flavor.

I have a new, never been mentioned on here, flavor to try next season. It should be a big fish killer.


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## BottomBouncer

Another thing to think about....

Compared to the more popular species......a very small percentage of fishermen in the U.S. actually fish for carp.....and an even smaller percentage actually eats them.

So, just like bluegill....there are much more dinks than monsters.

Now, when you look at good bluegill waters......at least the places I've caught or seen a lot of big gils caught.....there are plenty of catfish, musky and other little critter gitters to clean house. And I've also seen large amounts of better than average carp come out too......just like Alum.


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## BuckeyeFishinNut

I am kinda with Ak on what he said, sometimes you got to weed out the small ones to get to the larger ones. I have sat in areas that we have chummed on the river and caught literally hundreds of 10-15 lb carp. But as you look out over the water you see solid 20 lbers if not bigger rolling in the same area. I think sometimes those bigger carp sit on the outside edge of the action and are a little bit more cautious. Sometimes a change of bait helps too, go to a larger bait, harder bait, etc. I haven't been targeting carp exclusively very long but I have fished the Ohio River for almost 20 years and I have landed countless carp over 20 lbs. and this was back when I only caught them for something to pass the time when nothing else was hitting. Hell, we didn't even take pics or officially weigh them and those fish would often be our biggest fish for the year. Only time will tell where the "Big" carp are hiding in Ohio.

Jake


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## PAYARA

I would tend to agree with Ak in most cases as well..BUT...
If you fish a water in which the carp have seen little to no
pressure,and it takes you LONG periods of time before a BIG
(20lb+) carp shows up,then its highly unlikely that their is a 
alot of them!Fish of 20lbs or more are NOT shy on new waters,
and ussualy if they are present in good number,can and do turn 
up fairly quick.If their present, it shouldn't take years to find 
them.I don't care what water it is!

Scott,Iam telling you IF one had 100 fish out of the Larry in
a singal session,on ANY stretch,How many fish would be 20lb+?
compared to 100 fish from the Ohio,in any stretch?

Also Scott,there has been scores of 30's and 40's caught
in Ohio.I know good and well,that 30-40lb carp are present
in all sorts of waters in OH.But they will never be had with
any consistancy in any one OH water,except Lake Erie.

The ONLY thing I can not fathom about BIG carp in OH,
is carp topping mid 40's inland!


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## crappielooker

heres another factor you have to throw in.. the size of the body of water.. how much of an area do you think are being tapped by fishermen?? when you fish somewhere, i bet you probably cover about 0.0001% of the area anyways.. you are just playing chances at this point..  my point is, we got big waters here.. not some little pond..
also.. not too many people have been fishing specifically for carp around here for long.. with a few minor exception of a few.. unlike in NY or TX, those folks have been at it for a veeery looong time now.. we can't even touch them when it comes to that..  heck, those guys from boston have been at it awhile too..  
i guess what i'm trying to say is.. in due time, Ohio will eventually produce big carp.. be it from a river or a lake.. i know that big carp are in there just waiting to be caught.. they don't get big from being stupid..


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## crappielooker

since BB brought up the potomac river, i'll have to say something.. lol..
last time i went to DC to fish the tidal basin.. i walked right by the potomac and thought how carpy it looks.. maan.. i wanna go back there in the warmer months and fish it.


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## PAYARA

Ak,let me know when you plan to go..I would be interested
in hitting it up with you!


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## crappielooker

will do greg..


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## ohioiceman

humps,sudden drop offs, main river channels and big waves.
Humps-self explanatory,if your in 15-30 feet of water and find even a small hump that comes up maybe 3 feet to almost the surface fish it.
Drop off-the steeper the better,set a box on the floor with the flaps folded out the flaps are the shallower flat and the drop into the box is that magical vertical face.(think zig for those suspending fish)
River channels-if you can find an area where the main channel runs close to the bank fish it,think of it as putting a fast food joint on rt 71 and you have the only one on that stretch of highway.
Big waves- I love nothing more than a big blow on the big pond   but a strong wind on any lake will do, fish right in to it especially if it is a fresh wind( 1st or 2nd day) and especially at night.

Just a couple thoughts.


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## PAYARA

Hey Iceman,Hows the fishing up at the big pond?Any fish
from Edgewater or the Bay this year?where are all the biggies
up there man?


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## ohioiceman

Hey Greg,

Actually 55th and the Black river in Lorain were the spots for a few pigs this year. Where they opened the bank on the Black behind the police station has made a world of difference, now you can park right beside where the river opens into the lake,you can fish the wall and the river channel without all the snags. Edgewater is always great on a big wind,just hit the beach and turn left go to the big drain area and you will catch fish and wear your chest waders or scuba gear depending on the waves.  East harbor is always the first area to turn on,just remember there is only one way in or out of there and you can flip a jig across it,if you don't mind a little cold weather this area is where they stage as soon as the ice is off,bring your pfd. Got some other areas but you'll have to pm me for those,I'll gladly tell any carper where and when,no secrets here just can't tell publically I have to deal with to many bow boys and netters.

Any carper that wants to fish Erie,all you gotta do is let me know,but give me at least a weeks notice,sometimes I don't get home for a few days.


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## RiverRat

Salmon.....its not fighting...its a discussion...im not fighting with Greg or an of the others, we all have our own opinions and thoughts..its ALL good and this type of topic only brings out things to think about or maybe even rethink about. I respect their opinions and take them into consideration in the big picture.

Whatever the answer maybe, like it was said, only time will show what Ohio has to offer.

Scott


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## PAYARA

Exactly!.........


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## Tornichio

I caught this past spring 3 over 20lbs in about an hours time period. I would say that this area has big fish potential. I am sure we have all seen the monsters rolling when we are fishing no mater where we are fishing, lakes or rivers. I think being in the correct location at the right time is the main key. I think with out a doubt there are fish over 40lbs in ohio. I have seen two in the water. I used to work were I could over look a body of water everyday. I would observe the fish at all different times of the day 7 days a week. I think scott is right in that we probably would be surprised just how many fish can be held in a specific water. this one in particular was 35 acres. 1 day right as a front was moving through I saw couple hundred that I would have guessed were in the 15lb to 20lb+ range. They were just about the same size and tons of them they were not swimming around just perfectly lined up facing north. I don't know why it happened, but it only lasted 30 mins or so. I never knew there were so many of just that specific size. but that is another discussion.


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## Tornichio

I should also say that I think a 40 is kind of like finding the needle in the haystack. the areas that I know they exist, would take a lot of hours getting 1 to bite for sure. They are not real common. You just can't catch 1 every time out. It really is sort of a numbers game. This is why I think location is so very important.


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