# What do you think?



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

In light of the recent tragedy and all talk going along with it, it got me thinking. There has been lots of small talk regarding what should be done to make schools safer. 

Some recommend arming some/all teachers with firearms, whether it is ccw or just access to firearms somewhere on the school property. This has both pros and cons, with one of the bigger cons being lack of training/experience with firearms. We have all heard plenty on this already.

Others say to employ more police officers at our local schools. This is what is being done right now, but for how long? Many communities have made cutbacks to their police/fire/ems forces in recent years and coming up with the money to pay these officers is becoming more and more difficult. Likewise, plenty has been heard on this issue as well.

So to my point...... in this country we have thousands, upon thousands of military veterans that are currently looking for work. These individuals have military backgrounds and are very familiar with the safe operation of a firearm. Most, if not all, have some sort of training in a "urban warfare" setting (i.e. inside of buildings, city streets, etc). Why not employ these veterans (pending background/mental health checks (PTSD comes to mind)) as security for our schools? Lots of money would be saved due to not having to pay to train someone with no experience (teachers) what-so-ever. Knock out two birds with one stone, provide jobs for vets and security for kids. Like I said, it is just a thought. I'm not trying to figure out how they would get paid, where the money would come from, etc. I do feel that after this tragedy, there would not be much of an opposition to paying a little extra to know that our kids are safe in school. I mean, come on, I've heard we need to pay for metal detectors, bullet-proof glass, etc for the schools. It's obvious that money is not an issue. I just feel that it would be a feasable (part of the) solution to the problem at hand. 

Comments? Opinions? Pros/cons? Do you think it would be a good idea? Is it feasable? Am I an idiot for thinking this?


----------



## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

It's a definate that we need to secure our schools.


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

..sounds like a good idea...(it may be cheaper..it does create employment..)however i dont think that being in the military is enough for the majority of the public to call them "trained"... someone would definitely see that as a problem im sure. Just saying"he was military..thats good enuff" would never fly with the public


----------



## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

I am all for giving our Vet's an opportunity for employment.There are so many out of work and having a hard time of it.I have been there and getting a job just gets harder and harder as time goes by, none of us are getting any younger that's for sure. Also having a job protecting not only the children but our future as well.When I left the service my training was of little importance to civilian life as far as work was concerned. and I wasn't even remotely interested in law enforcement,should have thought more on that one in retrospect.


----------



## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

I think you are on to something very good there. Don't know how it would all work, and would needs lots of additional training but there is certainly a resource of brave men and women out there being under utilized!


----------



## gerb (Apr 13, 2010)

i actually heard something like this being brought up today on my local radio show. a guy has a website about placing retired police officers/military in schools, dressed in plain clothes, specifically to diffuse situations like the recent tragedy. i think its a great idea, wish i could remember the website.


----------



## OSUdaddy (Oct 18, 2010)

Great idea but who pays for it? 

I would be willing to pay an additional tax to pay for this program. It would have to be a federal tax, perhaps with 1% added to sales taxes in all States.


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree 100 percent fishlandr just because somebody is a veteran doesn't mean that they would be qualified for the position. I would imagine the veterans military history would be thoroughly inspected before being hired. Mental history would have to be considered. Likewise with criminal history. I'm sure that only top candidates would be allowed to protect the kids.


----------



## Stars-n-Stripers (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't think there is any way it could work, too much of a liability issue. Perhaps National Guardsmen could somehow be utilized.


----------



## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

I like the Idea.... I was thinking someone(after proper checks and training) who is going to be at the school all day everyday carry a ccw. No one needs to know who it is,except the proper people/person(who ever that needs to be).. And I agree I am more then willing to pay some extra cash to make sure my kids are going to be safe in school(sad but true).. I thought of this after my wife told me she thought all the teachers should be trained to handle a firearm and keep somewhere in the class, told her that is to much of a liability haveing that gun "somewhere" in the classroom,and would cost way to much to train EVERY teacher safe gun handling/operating......
Dont advertise the gun and person to the kids,but let it be know there is someone in EVERY shool ready to difuss any situation.
At the highschool in town there is always a local police officer in the building(groveport high school) but not in any of the other schools(jr. high,elem. ect.).....

But I like your Idea as well...


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Saugeyefisher said:


> I like the Idea.... I was thinking someone(after proper checks and training) who is going to be at the school all day everyday carry a ccw. No one needs to know who it is,except the proper people/person(who ever that needs to be).. And I agree I am more then willing to pay some extra cash to make sure my kids are going to be safe in school(sad but true).. I thought of this after my wife told me she thought all the teachers should be trained to handle a firearm and keep somewhere in the class, told her that is to much of a liability haveing that gun "somewhere" in the classroom,and would cost way to much to train EVERY teacher safe gun handling/operating......
> Dont advertise the gun and person to the kids,but let it be know there is someone in EVERY shool ready to difuss any situation.
> At the highschool in town there is always a local police officer in the building(groveport high school) but not in any of the other schools(jr. high,elem. ect.).....
> 
> But I like your Idea as well...


I believe most people would be shocked at the number of teachers that already have a CCW. Just let them carry. You want to throw some extra training in there, go for it. You can't make someone carry a gun and expect them to be able to defend anything. But there are teachers that are willing to do it. Let them.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Bad Bub said:


> I believe most people would be shocked at the number of teachers that already have a CCW. Just let them carry. You want to throw some extra training in there, go for it. You can't make someone carry a gun and expect them to be able to defend anything. But there are teachers that are willing to do it. Let them.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I am just playing devils advocate here, but how would that work with Ohio's duty to retreat?


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

MLAROSA said:


> I am just playing devils advocate here, but how would that work with Ohio's duty to retreat?


In a classroom with only one door? I'd say your options are pretty limited....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Bad Bub said:


> In a classroom with only one door? I'd say your options are pretty limited....
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


And if the shooting was in the class room next door and not the class room with the CHL holder?


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

MLAROSA said:


> And if the shooting was in the class room next door and not the class room with the CHL holder?


Good lord.... then i guess they have to die. Smh...

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## robertj298 (Feb 23, 2009)

Bad Bub said:


> I believe most people would be shocked at the number of teachers that already have a CCW. Just let them carry. You want to throw some extra training in there, go for it. You can't make someone carry a gun and expect them to be able to defend anything. But there are teachers that are willing to do it. Let them.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I can only imagine the liability risk involved in doing this. We just had 2 trained N.Y City police officers injure 9 innocent bystanders while shooting at 1 suspect back in August.


----------



## moosejohn (Feb 25, 2010)

I believe the best answer is some teachers with ccw training also have extra training for these people no one other than authorities would know who carrys and whom does not just have to make sure proper training is done . it would not cost tax payers to much and would deter violent crime just my 2 cent


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

i think its a bad idea and as a life member of the VFW, i wil not subject myself to becoming some ones babysitter....


----------



## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

#1:If an intruder/ shooter is armed as was the Conn criminal, being behind a common school classroom wall isn`t any real protection unless it`s cement FILLED or solid cement block construction. #2: Your basic idea has merit ASSUMING the weapons used in defense are "HIGH kill probability/ LOW `collateral damage` type. Firing a weapon and hitting the felon, and penerating a wall and injuring/ killing a student or teacher/ staff MUST BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS !!! Sky Marshall type weapons that can be "safely' used on an airliner would be IDEA. #3: You yourselves several times noted the need for VERY extensive "REAL WORLD" ie, if it CAN `go wrong IT WILL` type repeated training, ie, in the dark, screaming crying hysterical adults and kids running helter skelter, possible smoke, sirens, during a thunderstorm the WHOLE can of crap spewing from the fan. If not THAT kind of training then DON`T BOTHER to try this. You WANT the guys who under the above situation and no sleep, dead tired with the world going to absolute hell in a bushel basket, seeing the 1 chance to take the shot can CORRECTLY and REPEATEDLY instantly and accurately put that round into that shooter`s eyeball and out the back of his skull dropping him in his tracks, dead before his face bounces off the floor ! TRAINING prior will be ALL the difference if ever faced to do this. And it WILL require an "ALL IN' or just stay home commitment to training. But ASSURE you, we HAVE the persons with the SKILLS to do this, they simply need US as citizens and PARENTS to CARE ENOUGH to FORCE it to become reality...


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

Stars-n-Stripers said:


> I don't think there is any way it could work, too much of a liability issue. Perhaps National Guardsmen could somehow be utilized.


What liabilities come to mind?


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

ezbite said:


> i think its a bad idea and as a life member of the VFW, i wil not subject myself to becoming some ones babysitter....


Understandable although I don't quite get what being a life member of the VFW has to do with anything. I would not expect everyone to want to do the job either. You also have a job/income at this moment in time. I bet many (qualified) jobless vets out there would jump at the opportunity to "be someone's babysitter"


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

Lowell........not quite following u. Perhaps u could clarify your point?


----------



## Deep Trouble (Jul 8, 2010)

I suspect the liability issue may be moot. Been a while since I was in law school (and I don't practice law today) but I think the security officer would be considered a government employee with immunity from liability as long as they were acting within the scope and purpose of their employment. Again, I could be wrong, but there should be some shield to their personal liability....


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

moosejohn said:


> I believe the best answer is some teachers with ccw training also have extra training for these people no one other than authorities would know who carrys and whom does not just have to make sure proper training is done . it would not cost tax payers to much and would deter violent crime just my 2 cent


I don't know of any current CCW holder that is required to go through "extra" training to carry a concealed weapon in public beyond the already required training. So why wouldn't a teacher be able to carry if they already have their CCW? I never said the teachers should become security guards. But they should be able to defend themselves if nothing else. The shooting in Conn showed just how willing many teachers are the risk it all for their students. All I'm saying is give the one's that want it a fighting chance. If there willing to risk it all, don't force them to sacrifice it all.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

The common denominator in all these mass killings is "gun free zones". Bottom line. Fish in a concrete barrel. Citizens that aren't allowed to protect themselves. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Stars-n-Stripers (Nov 15, 2007)

I_Shock_Em said:


> What liabilities come to mind?


Seriously?
Think about the possibilities.
They shoot somebody.
Somebody shoots them.
They get involved in an altercation, say breaking up a fight, hurt a student, accidental discharge of a firearm.
In this litigious society there would be Attorneys standing in line.


----------



## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

A school is not a place that should have to be locked down under the armed watch of anyone. It should be a place where kids can expand their minds and their horizons, where they can learn and grow in peace. The events of the last several years are illustrations of why that idea is no longer possible. 
I firmly believe that this type of event will continue to occur in the future and that there is quite possibly nothing that can be done to stop it. Any attempt to arm teachers, (I can hear the kindergartners asking sweet Miss Susan whether she prefers hollow points or wadcutters), armed guards ('cuz that's not intimidating at all) or any other reactive actionis just that. Reactive. The response only works AFTER the threat is realized. And you are relying on people whose main job it is NOT to have to shoot someone.
Unfortunately I believe we are seeing the results of 35 years of deterioration of our society and education system. Where students are taught that everyone is the same, no one wins and no one loses. That all things are equal no matter how much effort you put in. That it doesn't matter anymore what right and wrong are. Those are just personal stances, right? That morals are old-fashioned, personal responsibility is not to be expected or demanded, that there is always someone or something else to be blamed and that if we want to do something, we should just do it. 
I do not think this problem will go away no matter what they do, what weapons they restrict, what activities they take away or ban UNLESS fundamental changes are made in the way we as a society instill the proper traits and ideals in our youth. I was raised to respect authority, to respect my elders, to be self-reliant and sufficient, to strive for excellence and always look to succeed, to set goals and attain them and to do all this while respecting my fellow man (or woman as it may be) and loving all. I am nearly 50 now and fear that I am in a waning populace of those who think like I do. I'm truly saddened by what I see. And I'm also saddened by the people who are so willing to give up theirs freedoms to try to remedy this situation.


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

Stars-n-Stripers said:


> Seriously?
> Think about the possibilities.
> They shoot somebody.
> Somebody shoots them.
> ...


Really? They are there to potentially shoot someone/get shot. That's the point. You don't think that rules and restrictions would be put in place prior to any employment? I'm sure the lawyers would be involved BEFORE anyone was working in the school. These "guards" would not be there to keep johnny from picking on billy. They would be there to step in in the event of a REAL emergency


----------



## Shaggy (Oct 24, 2008)

UFM82 said:


> A school is not a place that should have to be locked down under the armed watch of anyone. It should be a place where kids can expand their minds and their horizons, where they can learn and grow in peace. The events of the last several years are illustrations of why that idea is no longer possible.
> I firmly believe that this type of event will continue to occur in the future and that there is quite possibly nothing that can be done to stop it. Any attempt to arm teachers, (I can hear the kindergartners asking sweet Miss Susan whether she prefers hollow points or wadcutters), armed guards ('cuz that's not intimidating at all) or any other reactive actionis just that. Reactive. The response only works AFTER the threat is realized. And you are relying on people whose main job it is NOT to have to shoot someone.
> Unfortunately I believe we are seeing the results of 35 years of deterioration of our society and education system. Where students are taught that everyone is the same, no one wins and no one loses. That all things are equal no matter how much effort you put in. That it doesn't matter anymore what right and wrong are. Those are just personal stances, right? That morals are old-fashioned, personal responsibility is not to be expected or demanded, that there is always someone or something else to be blamed and that if we want to do something, we should just do it.
> I do not think this problem will go away no matter what they do, what weapons they restrict, what activities they take away or ban UNLESS fundamental changes are made in the way we as a society instill the proper traits and ideals in our youth. I was raised to respect authority, to respect my elders, to be self-reliant and sufficient, to strive for excellence and always look to succeed, to set goals and attain them and to do all this while respecting my fellow man (or woman as it may be) and loving all. I am nearly 50 now and fear that I am in a waning populace of those who think like I do. I'm truly saddened by what I see. And I'm also saddened by the people who are so willing to give up theirs freedoms to try to remedy this situation.


I must agree. In today's society a criminal has more rights than a victim. A baby seal has more rights than an unborn child. The police can't protect a threatened individual until an act is committed. We'd rather pay for the care and well-being of a hardened criminal/murderer than put him out of our society and we've tolerated the atheists, lawyers and politicians while they've taken God out of everything but our churches and in some cases He isn't even there. Wake up America!

If we arm adults to protect our schools a maniac will kill the adults first and he'll be wearing body armor. No hand gun will take him out. The answer does not lie in weaponry. Here's the answer, "If my people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and *heal their land*."

If you think I'm a Bible thumper you'd be wrong. I'm just a guy who's old enough and has experienced enough to know we cannot combat the problems we have created ourselves. This nations healing will be a process. Humbleness...Prayer...Searching...and then Repentance. I personally have spent too many Sundays fishing instead of worshiping and the mass killings of 6 year old children have me completely heart broken. I believe this might be the event that is the bottom of the barrel for America. I hope so. Something has to change and the only thing that can change a heart is God. What better time than the Christmas season to realize who God is and what He has done for us. If that doesn't begin to make you humble nothing will. I have decided that if only one man begins this healing process that one man will be me. How many others can I count on to be in church Sunday?


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Shaggy said:


> I must agree. In today's society a criminal has more rights than a victim. A baby seal has more rights than an unborn child. The police can't protect a threatened individual until an act is committed. We'd rather pay for the care and well-being of a hardened criminal/murderer than put him out of our society and we've tolerated the atheists, lawyers and politicians while they've taken God out of everything but our churches and in some cases He isn't even there. Wake up America!
> 
> If we arm adults to protect our schools a maniac will kill the adults first and he'll be wearing body armor. No hand gun will take him out. The answer does not lie in weaponry. Here's the answer, "If my people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and *heal their land*."
> 
> If you think I'm a Bible thumper you'd be wrong. I'm just a guy who's old enough and has experienced enough to know we cannot combat the problems we have created ourselves. This nations healing will be a process. Humbleness...Prayer...Searching...and then Repentance. I personally have spent too many Sundays fishing instead of worshiping and the mass killings of 6 year old children have me completely heart broken. I believe this might be the event that is the bottom of the barrel for America. I hope so. Something has to change and the only thing that can change a heart is God. What better time than the Christmas season to realize who God is and what He has done for us. If that doesn't begin to make you humble nothing will. I have decided that if only one man begins this healing process that one man will be me. How many others can I count on to be in church Sunday?


I agree with most of this. (And just a reminder religion discussion is against site rules). The freedom of religion and the separation of church and state also have to be upheld. The government cannot force you, nor deny you the right to practice any religion. Which basically means if "little Johnny " wants to pray in school, he has every right to. However, the school cannot endorse nor ridicule little Johnny's decision to do so. If we're going to fight for one right, we have to fight to uphold all of our rights. The bill of rights is a package deal.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Am "old school" myself; and whether society now teaches or instills the "proper' respect, values, vitues, ect is MEANINGLESS to a human being who due to MENTAL ISSUES not only doesn`t "get it"; they are somehow just UNAWARE (or unable to grasp) the CONCEPT of others even HAVING rights, let alone "feelings". They are aware of their OWN, but they see other people as OBJECTS, same as a pencil, or sofa, or car; NOT as fellow human beings. THAT is what you are attempting to deal with. The CONCEPT of "hurting" or killing others just DOES NOT "register". Some of them (not all) are like light sockets with no BULB; flip the switch as much as you WANT TO, but the "light" ISN`T coming on. Allowing them access even accidently to firearms is another disaster waiting to happen. HOW do you "fix" THAT? As far as "gun free" zones, hate to say it but how many lunatics go try this sort of thing at a police station? Firing range? VERY FEW. WHY?


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

I_Shock_Em said:


> Understandable although I don't quite get what being a life member of the VFW has to do with anything. I would not expect everyone to want to do the job either. You also have a job/income at this moment in time. I bet many (qualified) jobless vets out there would jump at the opportunity to "be someone's babysitter"


i was just saying that i am a veteran and dont agree with your idea... i guess i should clairfy because the internet doesnt do that well..., i have a lot of experience with a lot of veterans and talk to them everyday, (i even held office for many years), i know what they (and I) think most of the time from my 30 plus years of service of the VFW.. i guess being life member doesnt really matter, but my opinion here should since your asking vets to step up once again... no its a bad idea.. im not hating, dont take this wrong, but im telling you, the veterans i know, got a lot more going on than hanging around a school all day looking for a shooter. especially the jobless ones.


----------



## Wow (May 17, 2010)

1st I'd like to ask you all. ... Can we keep politics and religion out of this conversation?
We've seen a number of threads locked already.
I believe that there are members here who have heavy hearts, and would like to join a realistic, sensible dialogue without fear of intimidation by a handful of posters who can't restrain themselves. Ironically, as it turns out, the very topic of conversation is about defending ourselves against individuals who, for whatever reason, have lost the ability to restrain themselves.

I_Shock_Em, If and when we determine that we can effectively man all of our schools with armed and trained security personell, our pool of recently returned veterans would be an excellent source. As employment In the private sector, of course.

I ,however, don't believe that we can, or will do any such thing.

This is not 9/11. We are not under siege. 

We can take steps to make our children safer, and we will.

Almost weekly, in this nation, some individual commits multiple homicide against family, friends, co-workers or perfect strangers. It can be in a supermarket, city park, restaurant or the shop floor. When that number becomes 20-30 victims? It traumatizes a nation, a world even. 
We will get through this, hopefully all the wiser. --Tim


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

ezbite said:


> i was just saying that i am a veteran and dont agree with your idea... i guess i should clairfy because the internet doesnt do that well..., i have a lot of experience with a lot of veterans and talk to them everyday, (i even held office for many years), i know what they (and I) think most of the time from my 30 plus years of service of the VFW.. i guess being life member doesnt really matter, but my opinion here should since your asking vets to step up once again... no its a bad idea.. im not hating, dont take this wrong, but im telling you, the veterans i know, got a lot more going on than hanging around a school all day looking for a shooter..


Thanks for clearing things up. I totally respect your opinion. I'm not saying this is something that needs to be done. It was just a potential idea. I'm not necessarily asking vets to step up AGAIN, it would just be an option for them. Many of our younger veterans have fallen on hard times and cannot find jobs in this tough economy. I'm sure that a few guys out there would take the job. Thank you for your service to the country





And I agree with Wow, politics and religion were not the intent of this thread


----------



## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

A lot of good posts in this thread. I don't think you could choose a person more suited for this job, than a person that is extensively trained for combat situations. Which is exactly what it is, when something like this recent shooting happens. The OP's idea is a great one. Would it work? Maybe. It would definitely be a deterrent, but it's not going to stop it. 

The only way I see to stop something like this from happening is to have a building impervious to entry. Bullet proof glass on every window where persons would be visible. Multiple doors at all entry and exit points. Ventilation systems that are impervious to entry. The grounds surrounding the building (s) completely non accessible to vehicular traffic. Even with all these extreme precautions, someone could, and would find a way around them. It would be a challenge for some. 

It's sad that we have to even discuss the need for armed personnel at schools, especially an elementary school. It's even more sad that no matter what precautions we enact..... they won't ever be enough. Stuff like this will continue to happen. It's the nature of today's beast.


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

I_Shock_Em said:


> I agree 100 percent fishlandr just because somebody is a veteran doesn't mean that they would be qualified for the position. I would imagine the veterans military history would be thoroughly inspected before being hired. Mental history would have to be considered. Likewise with criminal history. I'm sure that only top candidates would be allowed to protect the kids.


...whats your take on reservist or national gaurdsman doing this? they are already paid for, and trained..i have no idea what their schedules are like..maybe someone will chime in with some perspective on this idea


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Bassbme said:


> It's sad that we have to even discuss the need for armed personnel at schools, especially an elementary school. It's even more sad that no matter what precautions we enact..... they won't ever be enough. Stuff like this will continue to happen. It's the nature of today's beast.


 Im not so sure...waay back when...drunk driving used to be viewed as socially acceptable...now its "taboo"...the fines and penalties are much greater now too...yes it still happens...but not near as much as it used to many years ago...this is due to the people coming together (M.A.D.D.)..and not tolerating our government ignoring the problem....i believe that people will come together on this until something is done to at least take preventive measures...yes of course..i know its bound to happen again at some point. basbme you are right about that.. but..somethings gotta be done. to at least try and prevent or deterr this kind of action..students being massacred like this is just unnacceptable


----------



## bountyhunter (Apr 28, 2004)

just my though, the gun did not shoot these kids. we need to bring back the mental hospitals, these sick people need help. I have no problem with guns in the hands sound minded people.


----------



## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

This was posted on an earlier thread and people did not seem to want to open it and read so here it is for those who want to read it FROM www.PoliceOne.com


10-43: All Units...
with Doug Wyllie, PoliceOne Editor in Chief 



&#8220;How many kids have been killed by school fire in all of North America in the past 50 years? Kids killed... school fire... North America... 50 years... How many? Zero. That&#8217;s right. Not one single kid has been killed by school fire anywhere in North America in the past half a century. Now, how many kids have been killed by school violence?&#8221;
So began an extraordinary daylong seminar presented by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a Pulitzer Prize nominated author, West Point psychology professor, and without a doubt the world&#8217;s foremost expert on human aggression and violence. The event, hosted by the California Peace Officers Association, was held in the auditorium of a very large community church about 30 miles from San Francisco, and was attended by more than 250 police officers from around the region.
Grossman&#8217;s talk spanned myriad topics of vital importance to law enforcement, such as the use of autogenic breathing, surviving gunshot wounds, dealing with survivor guilt following a gun battle, and others. But violence among and against children was how the day began, and so I'll focus on that issue here.


Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, pictured with PoliceOne Senior Editor Doug Wyllie, spoke before a crowd of more than 250 police officers in an event hosted by the California Peace Officers Association. (PoliceOne image)

Related Articles:
Arming campus cops is elementaryA decade after Columbine we're still learning, teaching

Helping schools prepare for an active-shooter showdown
Sheriff Fred Wegener says that preparing schools for an active shooter is community policing at its best. 


&#8220;In 1998,&#8221; Grossman said, &#8220;school violence claimed what at the time was an all time record number of kids&#8217; lives. In that year there were 35 dead and a quarter of a million serious injuries due to violence in the school. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. But we hear people say, &#8216;That&#8217;s the year Columbine happened, that&#8217;s an anomaly.&#8217; Well, in 2004 we had a new all time record &#8212; 48 dead in the schools from violence. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. Let&#8217;s assign some grades. Put your teacher hat on and give out some grades. What kind of grade do you give the firefighter for keeping kids safe? An &#8216;A,&#8217; right? Reluctantly, reluctantly, the cops give the firefighters an &#8216;A,&#8217; right? Danged firefighters, they sleep &#8216;till they&#8217;re hungry and eat &#8216;till they&#8217;re tired. What grade do we get for keeping the kids safe from violence? Come on, what&#8217;s our grade? Needs improvement, right?&#8221;
Johnny Firefighter, A+ Student
&#8220;Why can&#8217;t we be like little Johnny Firefighter?&#8221; Grossman asked as he prowled the stage. &#8220;He&#8217;s our A+ student!&#8221;
He paused, briefly, and answered with a voice that blew through the hall like thunder, &#8220;Denial, denial, denial!&#8221;
Grossman commanded, &#8220;Look up at the ceiling! See all those sprinklers up there? They&#8217;re hard to spot &#8212; they&#8217;re painted black &#8212; but they&#8217;re there. While you&#8217;re looking, look at the material the ceiling is made of. You know that that stuff was selected because it&#8217;s fire-retardant. Hooah? Now look over there above the door &#8212; you see that fire exit sign? That&#8217;s not just any fire exit sign &#8212; that&#8217;s a &#8216;battery-backup-when-the-world-ends-it-will-still-be-lit&#8217; fire exit sign. Hooah?&#8221;
Walking from the stage toward a nearby fire exit and exterior wall, Grossman slammed the palm of his hand against the wall and exclaimed, &#8220;Look at these wall boards! They were chosen because they&#8217;re what?! Fireproof or fire retardant, hooah? There is not one stinking thing in this room that will burn!&#8221;
Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, &#8220;But you&#8217;ve still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? No! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!
&#8220;But you try to prepare for violence &#8212; the thing much more likely to kill our kids in schools, the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill our kids in schools &#8212; and people think you&#8217;re paranoid. They think you&#8217;re crazy. ...They&#8217;re in denial.&#8221;
Teaching the Teachers
The challenge for law enforcement agencies and officers, then, is to overcome not only the attacks taking place in schools, but to first overcome the denial in the minds of mayors, city councils, school administrators, and parents. Grossman said that agencies and officers, although facing an uphill slog against the denial of the general public, must diligently work toward increasing understanding among the sheep that the wolves are coming for their children. Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack.
&#8220;Come with me to the library at Columbine High School,&#8221; Grossman said. &#8220;The teacher in the library at Columbine High School spent her professional lifetime preparing for a fire, and we can all agree if there had been a fire in that library, that teacher would have instinctively, reflexively known what to do.
"But the thing most likely to kill her kids &#8212; the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill her kids, the teacher didn&#8217;t have a clue what to do. She should have put those kids in the librarian&#8217;s office but she didn&#8217;t know that. So she did the worst thing possible &#8212; she tried to secure her kids in an un-securable location. She told the kids to hide in the library &#8212; a library that has plate glass windows for walls. It&#8217;s an aquarium, it&#8217;s a fish bowl. She told the kids to hide in a fishbowl. What did those killers see? They saw targets. They saw fish in a fish bowl.&#8221;
Grossman said that if the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they&#8217;d spent preparing for fire doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different.
Rhetorically he asked the assembled cops, &#8220;If somebody had spent five minutes telling that teacher what to do, do you think lives would have been saved at Columbine?&#8221;
Arming Campus Cops is Elementary
Nearly two years ago, I wrote an article called Arming campus cops is elementary. Not surprisingly, Grossman agrees with that hypothesis.
&#8220;Never call an unarmed man &#8216;security&#8217;,&#8221; Grossman said.
&#8220;Call him &#8216;run-like-hell-when-the-man-with-the-gun-shows-up&#8217; but never call an unarmed man security.
"Imagine if someone said, &#8216;I want a trained fire professional on site. I want a fire hat, I want a fire uniform, I want a fire badge. But! No fire extinguishers in this building. No fire hoses. The hat, the badge, the uniform &#8212; that will keep us safe &#8212; but we have no need for fire extinguishers.&#8217; Well, that would be insane. It is equally insane, delusional, legally liable, to say, &#8216;I want a trained security professional on site. I want a security hat, I want a security uniform, and I want a security badge, but I don&#8217;t want a gun.&#8217; It&#8217;s not the hat, the uniform, or the badge. It&#8217;s the tools in the hands of a trained professional that keeps us safe.
&#8220;Our problem is not money,&#8221; said Grossman. &#8220;It is denial.&#8221;
Grossman said (and most cops agree) that many of the most important things we can do to protect our kids would cost us nothing or next-to-nothing.
Grossman&#8217;s Five D&#8217;s
Let&#8217;s contemplate the following outline and summary of Dave Grossman&#8217;s &#8220;Five D&#8217;s.&#8221; While you do, I encourage you to add in the comments area below your suggestions to address, and expand upon, these ideas.
1. Denial &#8212; Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said Grossman.
2. Deter &#8212; Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero
3. Detect &#8212; We&#8217;re talking about plain old fashioned police work here. The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn&#8217;t happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount.
4. Delay &#8212; Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids.
a. Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry. Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target.
b. Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with) the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response.
5. Destroy &#8212; Police officers and agencies should consider the following:
a. Carry off duty. No one would tell a firefighter who has a fire extinguisher in his trunk that he&#8217;s crazy or paranoid.
b. Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police, upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, &#8220;If an active killer strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per second.&#8221;
c. Put smoke grenades in the trunk of every cop car in America. Any infantryman who needs to attack across open terrain or perform a rescue under fire deploys a smoke grenade. A fire extinguisher will do a decent job in some cases, but a smoke grenade is designed to perform the function.
d. Have a &#8220;go-to-war bag&#8221; filled with lots of loaded magazines and supplies for tactical combat casualty care.
e. Use helicopters. Somewhere in your county you probably have one or more of the following: medevac, media, private, national guard, coast guard rotors.
f. Employ the crew-served, continuous-feed, weapon you already have available to you (a firehouse) by integrating the fire service into your active shooter training. It is virtually impossible for a killer to put well-placed shots on target while also being blasted with water at 300 pounds per square inch.
g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.
Coming Soon: External Threats
Today we must not only prepare for juvenile mass murder, something that had never happened in human history until only recently, but we also must prepare for the external threat. Islamist fanatics have slaughtered children in their own religion &#8212; they have killed wantonly, mercilessly, and without regard for repercussion or regret of any kind. What do you think they&#8217;d think of killing our kids?
&#8220;Eight years ago they came and killed 3,000 of our citizens. Do we know what they&#8217;re going to do next? No! But one thing they&#8217;ve done in every country they&#8217;ve messed with is killing kids in schools,&#8221; Grossman said.
The latest al Qaeda charter states that &#8220;children are noble targets&#8221; and Osama bin Laden himself has said that &#8220;Russia is a preview for what we will do to America.&#8221;
What happened in Russia that we need to be concerned with in this context? In the town of Beslan on September 1, 2004 &#8212; the very day on which children across that country merrily make their return to school after the long summer break &#8212; radical Islamist terrorists from Chechnya took more than 1,000 teachers, mothers, and children hostage. When the three-day siege was over, more than 300 hostages had been killed, more than half of whom were children.
&#8220;If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist&#8217;s plan, it would be Terror at Beslan by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they&#8217;re planning to do to the United States,&#8221; he said.
Consider this: There are almost a half a million school buses in America. It would require every enlisted person and every officer in the entire Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps combined to put just one armed guard on every school bus in the country.
As a country and as a culture, the level of protection Americans afford our kids against violence is nothing near what we do to protect them from fire. Grossman is correct: Denial is the enemy. We must prepare for violence like the firefighter prepares for fire. And we must do that today.
Hooah, Colonel!


----------



## IGbullshark (Aug 10, 2012)

this may have been posted already...but not all CCW classes are the same. i took one and was honestly scared at some of the people who got the CCW. i mean, they were missing a TON of shots...as in some missed the target completely yet they still got the license. i passed but was not satisfied with what i learned. i then took a different course and the standards for passing were WAY higher than the state standards. we had 5 more hours in the classroom and 4 more hours range time than we were required to do. in the first class there were several people who had never held a gun before. they were the ones missing the paper completely but still got their license. my point is, just because someone has the license dosent mean they can be trusted with a gun. i would like the federal government create a CCW so that the law can be the same across the board. i would like it to be made so that you know if someone has the license, they can handle a gun. another perk is that you wouldn't have to worry about whether or not your CCW is valid in the state you're traveling to (that is another huge pet peeve of mine although not very relevant to this thread).


----------



## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I_Shock_Em said:


> In light of the recent tragedy and all talk going along with it, it got me thinking. There has been lots of small talk regarding what should be done to make schools safer.
> 
> Some recommend arming some/all teachers with firearms, whether it is ccw or just access to firearms somewhere on the school property. This has both pros and cons, with one of the bigger cons being lack of training/experience with firearms. We have all heard plenty on this already.
> 
> ...


at first i wasnt even going to comment on this. but i read all the other posts first then read this one and decided i had to. so many people talk about the cost to do this. that should be the last thing we even think about. these children are our futures without them what elce even matters. they can raise taxes for this and taxes for that. why cant they raise taxes just for our childrens safety?? a well armed and trained guard at the entrance to each school is the best answer to this problem. and it probably wouldnt be 100%. but with the crazies in this country we need to do something thats going to really help.

and in my opinion your not anywhere near being an idiot for suggesting this. our kids need help now. not 20 yrs from now. i would say we have plenty of combat vets that would be proud to take the job of protecting our little kids.
sherman


----------



## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

UFM82 said:


> A school is not a place that should have to be locked down under the armed watch of anyone. It should be a place where kids can expand their minds and their horizons, where they can learn and grow in peace. The events of the last several years are illustrations of why that idea is no longer possible.
> I firmly believe that this type of event will continue to occur in the future and that there is quite possibly nothing that can be done to stop it. Any attempt to arm teachers, (I can hear the kindergartners asking sweet Miss Susan whether she prefers hollow points or wadcutters), armed guards ('cuz that's not intimidating at all) or any other reactive actionis just that. Reactive. The response only works AFTER the threat is realized. And you are relying on people whose main job it is NOT to have to shoot someone.
> Unfortunately I believe we are seeing the results of 35 years of deterioration of our society and education system. Where students are taught that everyone is the same, no one wins and no one loses. That all things are equal no matter how much effort you put in. That it doesn't matter anymore what right and wrong are. Those are just personal stances, right? That morals are old-fashioned, personal responsibility is not to be expected or demanded, that there is always someone or something else to be blamed and that if we want to do something, we should just do it.
> I do not think this problem will go away no matter what they do, what weapons they restrict, what activities they take away or ban UNLESS fundamental changes are made in the way we as a society instill the proper traits and ideals in our youth. I was raised to respect authority, to respect my elders, to be self-reliant and sufficient, to strive for excellence and always look to succeed, to set goals and attain them and to do all this while respecting my fellow man (or woman as it may be) and loving all. I am nearly 50 now and fear that I am in a waning populace of those who think like I do. I'm truly saddened by what I see. And I'm also saddened by the people who are so willing to give up theirs freedoms to try to remedy this situation.


Best answer to the problem I have seen on any board/site...


----------



## fishhogg (Apr 16, 2009)

I think there are a number of things that need to happen. I feel that we need to rethink this whole "gun-free" concept. All of these types of incidents seem to happen in them. The bad guys (crazy or not)all seem know that there is no one there to oppose them. They seem to kill themselves as soon as shows up with a gun. Secondly, I am not against arming teachers that want to carry concealed, or putting in qualified guards. I feel that should be some type of training required. Third and most important, we must look at how our mentally ill are handled in our society. We have to figure out how to handle this. From what I am hearing on the news, the mother knew she had a time bomb on her hands but didn't do or didn't know how to get this guy treatment. This is should be the subject of the conversation, not more gun control.


----------



## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Why can most of us come up with good ideas, funding, causes, etc...and our elected officials has us in gridlock.

My son's school system now has an armed Sheriff in every school, all the back and side doors are locked, hours are listed when the front doors are open, to gain access you have to call in on a system and beeped in by the office, then you have to check in and receive a badge just to pick up or deliver a child or anything else. They have been having drills, teachers will be trained by local law enforcement.
Metal detectors are next!
I agree with everything Our School system is doing...and I'll GLADLY pay for this!


----------



## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

Fishlandr75 said:


> ...whats your take on reservist or national gaurdsman doing this? they are already paid for, and trained..i have no idea what their schedules are like..maybe someone will chime in with some perspective on this idea


That's a tough one, primarily being that the government would be involved with that......and I'm not opening that can of worms. They would have sufficient training I would imagine


----------



## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Again, identifying and treating the mentally ill IS the LONG TERM solution AS PART of A WHOLE. Some types of mental illness simply CANNOT be "cured" and you IGNORE IT to their, your own and society`s peril. As MUCH as hate to say it "harden" the schools AND add VERY THOUROUGHLY "extremis" trained people who already HAVE close contact urban combat skills and the mindset that IF necessary they are WILLING to kill ANY shooter be they adult, juvenille, young, old, Muslim, Jewish, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Nazi, black Panther, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, librarian, male, female or undecided right between the eyeballs accurately to protect his or her children. The THREAT has become even more REAL, we as a society either STEP UP and PUT IN the EXPERTS or SHUT UP and continue to passively ACCEPT this...will add again- THESE people we hire to be able to DO this HAD BETTER have EXTENSIVE "REAL WORLD" crap hitting the fan SWAT type training and it would be a VERY good idea to have atleast a minimum part of that training with the school staff/ teachers. As far as "cost"- HOW many lives did it take to make the US school system FIREPROOF? Was THAT a "success"? And forgive the below the belt punch but how much does it actually cost to bury a child? Or 20 children?


----------



## Silent Mike (Aug 9, 2009)

i dont understand the drawbacks of putting officers/trained military personnel in the schools...it creates jobs, creates peace of mind, and keeps the kids safe!


----------



## IGbullshark (Aug 10, 2012)

honestly the states are strapped for cash, most Police Departments don't even have enough money to keep enough officers on the streets let alone 5-10 extra officers for each individual school in a district. i think its a great idea but due to all levels of government telling us how little cash they have, i just don't see it becoming a reality even in light of all the school shootings. it would be interesting to know how much of a tax increase it would take to cover all of these expenses.


----------



## jboss (Mar 31, 2008)

It doesnt fit with the anti gun position guns are the problem NOT the solution being a former military intelligence officer and sheriffs deputy one thing i believe could be done is to take volunteers from the schools put them through the background and psychological tests send the to the police academy then have them commissioned as police reserves or special deputies


----------



## Huz-yak (Jun 3, 2011)

Bad Bub said:


> The common denominator in all these mass killings is "gun free zones". Bottom line. Fish in a concrete barrel. Citizens that aren't allowed to protect themselves.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


this is the only answer
nothing else can protect anyone... the rest is fear. most of what you are all suggesting is a further loss of freedom and more military state control. More regs, more laws, more intervention = more of what caused this in the first place.


----------



## Header (Apr 14, 2004)

This research was done by two university profs who are very antigun and they found out the real truth about where mass killing are taking place, a good read.
http://news.yahoo.com/know-stop-school-shootings-003203357.html


----------



## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Finally a pro gun organization in Ohio is stepping up! Please support them and their efforts. No matter where you stand on the issue of gun control we should all certainly agree we as human beings have an obligation to protect ourself.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8694


----------



## Wow (May 17, 2010)

Header said:


> This research was done by two university profs who are very antigun and they found out the real truth about where mass killing are taking place, a good read.
> http://news.yahoo.com/know-stop-school-shootings-003203357.html


Did you even read the article? If you examine this article closely, you would see that it is a partisan opinion piece by Ann Coulter. A well known extremist. Certainly not an objective opinion. 
Nowhere does it state that the two researchers, economists, were anti-gun. 

What they surmised:" Landes and Lott examined many of the very policies being proposed right now in response to the Connecticut massacre: waiting periods and background checks for guns, the death penalty and increased penalties for committing a crime with a gun.
None of these policies had any effect on the frequency of, or carnage from, multiple-victim shootings".

The whole writing is Ann Coulter's opinion.

I do, however agree with the study's finding. That what we've done to this point isn't good enough.--Tim


----------



## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

As far as money available, DEMAND it become "available". Close to 60 yrs ago after several particularly ghastly cases with dozens of children dying (and the resulting criminal LAWSUITS) the general public DEMANED that the new schools that THEY PAY FOR would be as absolutely fireproof or atleast fire resistant as humanly possible, with self lighting multiple escapes AND built in fire fighting equiptment. IT WORKED. I would rather NOT have to HAVE armed officers in each and every school, but the REALITY IS as brave as the Princible was, she WAS NOT ABLE TO REASON WITH a human being who simply didnot have the ABILITY to CARE what he was about to do to other defenseless human beings. A VERY WELL TRAINED armed GUARD wouldn`t have allowed him to enter the building...It DOES NOT require a machine gun, or a flame thrower; 1 ACCURATE low velocity bullet even at 50-100` is incapacitating if not fatal. But with the possible chaos that could occur, am simply saying TRAINING the STAFF to a minimum level also would be invaluable. And on a semi regular basis put them back thru "thru the ringer". Obviously the Guards would requie ADEQUATE REPEATED TRAINING.The BETTER militaries and security forces TRAIN with this mindset: if there`s ANY doubt as to an outcome, it ALWAYS goes to the "bad" guys. The "bad" guys NEVER make mistakes and are always better equipted than you. From THAT starting point, you are EXPECTED to WIN with NO "collateral damage". After training repeatedly to the "full measure", in the REAL WORLD the "bad guys" generally get their (deleted)s handed back to them in shredded tatters with alot still missing. Anyone remember "Desert Storm"? GUESS WHY it turned out like it did? TRAINING, and more TRAINING, and then when you`re SICK of it, TRAIN some MORE! Our children DESERVE it.


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

The only realistic suggestion that could be implimented with the least amount of resistance is thorough training for all school teachers and employees is training in how to watch for threats as well as how to best handle these situations , complete with drills and practice. We put our children in the care of these people but to my knowledge most dont have a clue what to do ahead of time if something happens. This will not in most cases stop something from happening , but it could save many lives when it does. Should a middle aged woman be trained in how to identify possible threats and how to take somebody down with physical force if necessary and she has the chance ? These days you bet she should. Many would do it without a second thought , but they dont know how.

Arming teachers isnt the best idea , but it wouldnt hurt to have armed security officers on site patroling the area. That is until some troubled teenager takes one of their guns and uses it. Or some trigger happy security officer uses his gun to drop someone holding a plastic fork from the cafeteria. 

I think nationwide we need to start looking at whats affecting the minds of people and influencing them to do the things they are doing. What are we , or what are we not teaching our kids that produces violent people who dont value life ? But I dont think thats gonna happen because everyone is afraid that we will find out that its probably the entertainment and video game industry , as well as the music industry that is largely at fault , and people dont want to give those things up. Suppose this dark behavior really is influenced in some way by violence in games and music , movies about killing and hurting people , vampires and wherewolves tearing each other apart and drinking blood , etc. Is it really that big of a jump to real world violence when people are brought up with this stuff as their babysitters ?


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Fishlandr75 said:


> ...whats your take on reservist or national gaurdsman doing this? they are already paid for, and trained..i have no idea what their schedules are like..maybe someone will chime in with some perspective on this idea



I do see this as the next logical step though it says a lot about the state of our country when we have troops deployed to keep the peace in our schools. Not a totally bad idea though since national guard are not federal and fall under state control unless activated. Ultimately I think too many people would be far more concerned with how it appears than the students safety believe it or not. I think you would find the majority are willing to talk about taking drastic steps but when it comes right down to it they arent willing to take those steps. And thats a shame.


----------



## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

yonderfishin said:


> I think nationwide we need to start looking at whats affecting the minds of people and influencing them to do the things they are doing. What are we , or what are we not teaching our kids that produces violent people who dont value life ? But I dont think thats gonna happen because everyone is afraid that we will find out that its probably the entertainment and video game industry , as well as the music industry that is largely at fault , and people dont want to give those things up. Suppose this dark behavior really is influenced in some way by violence in games and music , movies about killing and hurting people , vampires and wherewolves tearing each other apart and drinking blood , etc. Is it really that big of a jump to real world violence when people are brought up with this stuff as their babysitters ?


Agreed!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Lewis said:


> Agreed!!!!!!!!!


agreed here too...not tryin to bash video game guys..but theyre are some pretty brutally violent video games out today..i know.i know...its up to the parents to control what the child plays with..but just sayin...when we had video games..it was donkey kong and space invaders..now its pretty much staright up death.blood.and explosions


----------



## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

How many here believe Adam Lanza's mental illness was caused by music, movies, or video games?


----------



## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Net said:


> How many here believe Adam Lanza's mental illness was caused by music, movies, or video games?


even this thought is just rediculous. 
I would almost bet that when he was very young, even before kindegarden he displayed some social issues.

If we want to look at something, let's look at the family unit and even that alone doesn't create this type of behavior.


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

crappiedude said:


> even this thought is just rediculous.
> I would almost bet that when he was very young, even before kindegarden he displayed some social issues.
> 
> If we want to look at something, let's look at the family unit and even that alone doesn't create this type of behavior.


...were not sayin that video games CAUSE mental illness...but they have a negative INFLUENCE...thats all ...... and its true


----------



## Burks (Jun 22, 2011)

Net said:


> How many here believe Adam Lanza's mental illness was caused by music, movies, or video games?


If that were the case then I should have been locked up decades ago.

All that Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osbourne, and Snoop Dogg music is going to my head. Mortal Kombat makes me want to rip out hearts with my bare hands and spinal columns of people I don't like. Full Metal Jacket gives me a raging.....uh......well.......to insult anyone I deem to be worthless.

Or maybe we can start blaming the people that commit these crimes instead of everyone and everything else. Fix the root of the problem people, instead of dealing with the aftermath of everything. If you want to blame video games and censor them, then you better censor radio, TV, newspaper, etc.....anything that mentions war, murder, rape, and so forth. Basically just let your children live in the woods away from socie.....wait.....they'll be exposed to rabbits eating grass! That's vegetative murder!

Teachers with guns? Are......you.....insane? I wouldn't trust a SINGLE teacher in this school system with a gun around my children (if I had any). These people are trained to teach children to tie their shoes and count apples, not defend them without injuring any. 

I can see the argument now. "Is it better to have a teacher accidentally shoot one child to save ten?"

How about we just get a better mental health care system and teach parents to do their job, be parents. Simple right? I have fantastic parents and they taught me well. Maybe that's why I haven't hauled off and went nuts (since I do love my violent video games and death metal). Or maybe it's because I have good parents AND common sense, which isn't all so common these days.

Pretty sure some of you remember KISS. People said they were the cause of this and that. Bet a lot of you listened to them too...


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Burks said:


> If that were the case then I should have been locked up decades ago.
> 
> All that Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osbourne, and Snoop Dogg music is going to my head. Mortal Kombat makes me want to rip out hearts with my bare hands and spinal columns of people I don't like. Full Metal Jacket gives me a raging.....uh......well.......to insult anyone I deem to be worthless.
> 
> ...


...easy to talk like that when you dont have kids...have a couple...youll feel differently...and violent video games and music DO have a negative influence...no they are not the ROOT cause of evil... but if your kid(which doesnt exist yet) grows up seeing you hit people most of his life...he/she will receive it as acceptable behavior..and repeat it(im not sayin at all that you would do that)..same with certain games.. i understand we cannot blame these things alone..but this is where we as parents need to step up to our responsibility of raising them and controlling, to the best of our ability..what is appropriate and not appropriate...i have recently become a father and i didnt think it would change my life as much as it has


----------



## catmoris (Jul 12, 2012)

Fishlandr75 said:


> agreed here too...not tryin to bash video game guys..but theyre are some pretty brutally violent video games out today..i know.i know...its up to the parents to control what the child plays with..but just sayin...when we had video games..it was donkey kong and space invaders..now its pretty much staright up death.blood.and explosions


Agree 1000%


----------



## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Burks said:


> If that were the case then I should have been locked up decades ago.
> 
> All that Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osbourne, and Snoop Dogg music is going to my head. Mortal Kombat makes me want to rip out hearts with my bare hands and spinal columns of people I don't like. Full Metal Jacket gives me a raging.....uh......well.......to insult anyone I deem to be worthless.
> 
> ...


 I get your point,99 out of 100 people can listen to Marilyn Manson,watch Friday The 13th movies or play slice em'up video games without being affected,the vast majority of people realize that all this stuff isn't reality.Now that one other kid is different,he has social issues,personality problems,and just doesn't place any value on things we all perceive as normal.Violent music,video games and movies do influence him greatly.Listen to the bio on most of these nutjobs-they're into self-mutilation,look and dress differently than most of the populace,mostly a loner,other than maybe hanging out with others of his ilk,in most cases highly intelligent and because of those social issues normally lives at home regardless of his age.Seems more than a coincidence to me that these kids with personality disorders,bi-polarism and in some cases autism,usually all dress alike,and have 0 social skills.These types of people ARE greatly influenced by all the violent crap they see and hear through music,games and movies.Unfortunately just like banning guns,the wack jobs would still get them.The only answer to me is updating mental health procedures,as sad as it may be for a parent who has a mentally disturbed child,some people just should not be freely walking amonst us.


----------



## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Burks said:


> If that were the case then I should have been locked up decades ago.
> 
> All that Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osbourne, and Snoop Dogg music is going to my head. Mortal Kombat makes me want to rip out hearts with my bare hands and spinal columns of people I don't like. Full Metal Jacket gives me a raging.....uh......well.......to insult anyone I deem to be worthless.
> 
> ...


Lots of good points IMO.

Until the Govt gets some good mind control drugs, you can't come up with 100% fool proof protection. OK you protect the schools. How do protect the athletic fields? The public libraries? McDonalds? The Mall? Public transportation systems? Mind control is the only answer.....


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Burks said:


> If that were the case then I should have been locked up decades ago.
> 
> All that Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osbourne, and Snoop Dogg music is going to my head. Mortal Kombat makes me want to rip out hearts with my bare hands and spinal columns of people I don't like. Full Metal Jacket gives me a raging.....uh......well.......to insult anyone I deem to be worthless.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about the video games, i could never get into them, but my younger brother loves his Xbox as much as i love my guns. And has never shown any indication of losing him mind. The parenting in our house was great. We were taught right from wrong through parental involvement, not through T.V., regardless of what we watched or listened to. 

The part i don't agree with is teachers being allowed to carry. Many of them carry a gun everywhere they go except into the classroom because it's a no gun zone. The argument some people have about a teacher having a bad day and shooting up their classroom is bogus. Obviously, up until now, if a teacher wanted to bring a gun to school and shoot the place up, they could've done it. This Lanza character didn't have a problem doing it, it would've only been easier for a teacher to do so. Teachers don't teach for any other reason other than that's what they love to do. They don't make a great amount of money, conditions aren't all that great compared to most other college degree required careers, and they WANT to help OUR kids. They will always be the last line of defense in a school for our children. And the "human body shield" isn't very effective at saving lives....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Net said:


> How many here believe Adam Lanza's mental illness was caused by music, movies, or video games?


Point is this kind of thing is happening more and more often , this most recent incident is not the only one. And anyway who is to say that he couldnt have been influenced by video games or other form of entertainment BECAUSE of his mental illness ? Even if its only just 1 person out of 100 ( and i beleve its more than that ) that is influenced by games and entertainment , we have the responsibility to keep that from happening. We have the responsibility to censor ourselves if it can save even one innocent life. It would be worth giving these things up if we saved one life by doing it.


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> Point is this kind of thing is happening more and more often , this most recent incident is not the only one. And anyway who is to say that he couldnt have been influenced by video games or other form of entertainment BECAUSE of his mental illness ? Even if its only just 1 person out of 100 ( and i beleve its more than that ) that is influenced by games and entertainment , we have the responsibility to keep that from happening. We have the responsibility to censor ourselves if it can save even one innocent life. It would be worth giving these things up if we saved one life by doing it.


Time to give up cars... and swimming... and boating.... and wading a river.... gas furnaces..... felling trees.... hanging Christmas lights.... playing baseball..... or football.... or basketball..... might as well get rid of electricity too.... no more going to work..... all of those things have killed people directly! Not, may have influenced someone to kill somebody.... if all these people crying out to eliminated guns or any particular gun wanted was to save lives, then they would have been looking at all the other ways people die years ago. But nobody wants to address something that they use on a daily basis, Like cars! Or electricity! They'd rather go after someone else's stuff, that in the grand scheme of things, causes minimal life loss in our everyday lives compared to all these other things. Don't create an inconvenience for everybody else, because it's convenient for you....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Burks (Jun 22, 2011)

[ame="http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82982787/"]Penn Jillette On The Wendy Williams Show - Video[/ame]

Listen to that. You can obviously tell Wendy Williams is completely ignorant on a lot of topics, while Penn Jilette is very well composed.

She had her mind already made up well before this show even aired. It's amazing.

And no, I will not feel different when I have children. I've been through it and so have all my friends. None of us turned out insane or going off the handle killing other people. My children will play games that are age appropriate. Obviously I wouldn't let them play Borderlands 2 at the age of 8, but in their late teens.....sure! This is, of course, based on them being level headed, well rounded, etc. If my child is borderline retarded, of course not. Parents just don't pay attention to anything. Johnny wants this to make Johnny happy, Johnny gets it to shut him up. Not happening.

I don't feel safe with teachers having guns. Cops can hardly hit their target, you think some 50 year old English teacher is going to hit a gunman and not endanger a child? Come on. That will never change with me. 

It's all about TEACHING your children right from wrong. Handing them a violent video game and not teaching them does absolutely nothing. Again, we're blaming the games/music/movies. Blame the parents. Blame the failed, nearly beyond repair healthcare/mental health system. It's like blaming the gun for a shooting. This kid should have never had access to any of this stuff. Parenting fail.


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Burks said:


> Penn Jillette On The Wendy Williams Show - Video
> 
> Listen to that. You can obviously tell Wendy Williams is completely ignorant on a lot of topics, while Penn Jilette is very well composed.
> 
> ...


Your very correct about the failed parenting, and i don't believe anyone would argue that. But the problem is that you can't tell someone how to parent. And even if you could, your not going to fix those out there that already suffer from failed parenting. You don't like teachers having guns because you feel they may hurt a child while trying to stop someone that is already hell bent on killing that same kid??? Well then i guess all of the 20 students and the teacher could just beg for mercy and hope for the best. That might save their lives.... oh wait.... no it didn't.... 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Burks said:


> Penn Jillette On The Wendy Williams Show - Video
> 
> Listen to that. You can obviously tell Wendy Williams is completely ignorant on a lot of topics, while Penn Jilette is very well composed.
> 
> ...




You gonna be the parent police ? Go around forcing parents to teach their children right ? Maybe we can pass a law on bad parenting ? 50,000 bad parents in this country and growing , not teaching their kids anything but letting them play games or watch tv all day , the potential future nutjob....how does your theory help or prevent this ?


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Bad Bub said:


> Time to give up cars... and swimming... and boating.... and wading a river.... gas furnaces..... felling trees.... hanging Christmas lights.... playing baseball..... or football.... or basketball..... might as well get rid of electricity too.... no more going to work..... all of those things have killed people directly! Not, may have influenced someone to kill somebody.... if all these people crying out to eliminated guns or any particular gun wanted was to save lives, then they would have been looking at all the other ways people die years ago. But nobody wants to address something that they use on a daily basis, Like cars! Or electricity! They'd rather go after someone else's stuff, that in the grand scheme of things, causes minimal life loss in our everyday lives compared to all these other things. Don't create an inconvenience for everybody else, because it's convenient for you....
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




You are kidding right ?


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Harbor Hunter said:


> I get your point,99 out of 100 people can listen to Marilyn Manson,watch Friday The 13th movies or play slice em'up video games without being affected,the vast majority of people realize that all this stuff isn't reality.Now that one other kid is different,he has social issues,personality problems,and just doesn't place any value on things we all perceive as normal.Violent music,video games and movies do influence him greatly.Listen to the bio on most of these nutjobs-they're into self-mutilation,look and dress differently than most of the populace,mostly a loner,other than maybe hanging out with others of his ilk,in most cases highly intelligent and because of those social issues normally lives at home regardless of his age.Seems more than a coincidence to me that these kids with personality disorders,bi-polarism and in some cases autism,usually all dress alike,and have 0 social skills.These types of people ARE greatly influenced by all the violent crap they see and hear through music,games and movies.Unfortunately just like banning guns,the wack jobs would still get them.The only answer to me is updating mental health procedures,as sad as it may be for a parent who has a mentally disturbed child,some people just should not be freely walking amonst us.



But we only hear about the "1" who flipped out and started shooting. Most of the time we never "heard" about the "50" seemingly normal kids who are still affected by this stuff and instead of a going on a shooting spree they quietly torture their siblings or pets without anyone knowing about it , the anger issues that get labeled as something else , the lack of respect for athority or the law , the self mutilation that goes completely unnoticed by everyone , and many other negative acts. Stuff like this is also on the rise but nobody is willing to even think about a possible connection. Games and entertainment are usually not themselves a cause but there is a very real possibility that they are part of it. The average kid has witnessed thousands of murders by the time they are 12 , dont make much difference if the murders were real or not it cant be a positive thing. Seems to me instead of asking whats wrong with something we might better be asking "whats RIGHT with it ?" Just sayin , somebody should be atleast looking into it rather than dismissing it altogether because they did all that stuff growing up and they are ok in their opinion.


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

I think some of you are not seeing the whole picture when it comes to arming teachers. No doubt in my mind that there will be those who are willing to accept the responsibility, training And the qualifying that must be required. I'm also just a sure that many, many more of them will refuse it and choose not to carry. Also with schools no longer a gun free zone, the insane murders intent on doing as much carnage at low risk to themselves will most likely look else where because the easy target no longer exist. IMO.


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

ezbite said:


> I think some of you are not seeing the whole picture when it comes to arming teachers. No doubt in my mind that there will be those who are willing to accept the responsibility, training And the qualifying that must be required. I'm also just a sure that many, many more of them will refuse it and choose not to carry. Also with schools no longer a gun free zone, the insane murders intent on doing as much carnage at low risk to themselves will most likely look else where because the easy target no longer exist. IMO.


Thank you.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> You are kidding right ?


Not for a second.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Have any of you guys worked in a school full of women? Well I have. Thank God they're not allowed to be armed!


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

ezbite said:


> I think some of you are not seeing the whole picture when it comes to arming teachers. No doubt in my mind that there will be those who are willing to accept the responsibility, training And the qualifying that must be required. I'm also just a sure that many, many more of them will refuse it and choose not to carry. Also with schools no longer a gun free zone, the insane murders intent on doing as much carnage at low risk to themselves will most likely look else where because the easy target no longer exist. IMO.


Once teachers are armed we will start seeing more reports of teachers losing it and going postal. Or teachers shooting a kid because he was holding "what looked like a gun". 

The more I think about the national guard idea the more I like it though. They dont even have to be wearing a uniform , just plain clothes. No hiring extra people , since guardsman are already on the state payrole. It would be considered their 2 weeks of training per year , and they could be rotated. Trained and competent military police who can handle a situation better than any armed teacher or hired security guard. And would be a good deterrent in most cases if the public knew the military was involved. I dont really see a bad side to that.


----------



## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

Net said:


> How many here believe Adam Lanza's mental illness was caused by music, movies, or video games?


That may come next and is as bad as blaming firearms.

Some people just have bad brain wiring, or are chemically unbalanced...others are the victims of their upbringing, just like some dogs are conditioned to be mean.

But it's easy to blame everything but the real cause, because that's more difficult.


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> Once teachers are armed we will start seeing more reports of teachers losing it and going postal. Or teachers shooting a kid because he was holding "what looked like a gun".


so what your saying is you trust a qualified teacher (in teaching) with your child to teach them, but you won't trust a qualified teacher (in protection) to protect your child?? Hmmmm 

Also there are documented cases where experienced LEO's have shot someone because he had "what looked like a gun" I'm not saying it's right, but it happens. That's where training, training and more training comes in. You can't not try because "what if" the system is broken and needs fixed now.


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> Once teachers are armed we will start seeing more reports of teachers losing it and going postal. Or teachers shooting a kid because he was holding "what looked like a gun".
> 
> The more I think about the national guard idea the more I like it though. They dont even have to be wearing a uniform , just plain clothes. No hiring extra people , since guardsman are already on the state payrole. It would be considered their 2 weeks of training per year , and they could be rotated. Trained and competent military police who can handle a situation better than any armed teacher or hired security guard. And would be a good deterrent in most cases if the public knew the military was involved. I dont really see a bad side to that.


Teachers have been carrying guns in the classroom in Texas for quite some time now, and i don't recall hearing of any teachers shooting any students.... or anybody else shooting their students for that matter. 

Like i said before, if a teacher wanted to bring a gun into the school and start shooting, they wouldn't have had much resistance. The kid in Connecticut just proved that....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

ezbite said:


> so what your saying is you trust a qualified teacher (in teaching) with your child to teach them, but you won't trust a qualified teacher (in protection) to protect your child?? Hmmmm
> 
> Also there are documented cases where experienced LEO's have shot someone because he had "what looked like a gun" I'm not saying it's right, but it happens. That's where training, training and more training comes in. You can't not try because "what if" the system is broken and needs fixed now.



What Im saying is the type of people who go into teaching are different from the type who go into law enforcement or the military. Whole different mindset and a whole different set of responsibilities. My neice is a teacher , and a good one , but it dont matter how much training or guns she had she would never be a protector of that sort , its not her thing and its not most teachers thing. They will take a bullet for a child , some of them , but armed security they are not. The odds of misidentification and mistake shootings/errors would still be much higher with armed teachers than with those with natural talent and desire to be an actual armed protector like a LEO. And more teachers are nutjobs these too as attested by many events in recent history. That many armed teachers means more likelyhood that the ones that shouldnt have a weapon handy , just may. 

Teachers are NOT LEO's or soldiers , they are caregivers and nurturers. These are occupations at opposite ends of the spectrum. You cant just give a teacher a gun and training and turn them into armed protectors , I dont believe it works that way.


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

Give the educator the option. If they choose to take advantage of the opportunity then training and certification should be mandatory along with continued training and recertification on a regular basis. Maybe quarterly training, yearly certification, with a minimum of x amount of independent range hours in between. Failure to meet range hours or attend quarterly training session results in forfeiture of licensing. Each school should have a minimum armed teacher to student ratio and teachers who chose to cary should receive a quarterly or yearly bonus. This would be less expensive than hiring armed guards. Make clerical, janitorial, and maintenance employees eligible as well.

See I just solved the problem.

Hurry mods, lock the thread before some idiot goes on about how this is a terrible idea.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> You cant just give a teacher a gun and training and turn them into armed protectors , I dont believe it works that way.


Well i think it can, I'm not saying force every teacher to become armed protectors, your right, that's a big load to carry and not many are ready for that role. But why not give the ones that are ready a chance?? I will say this again.. If the crazies know there is a chance that someone in that school has a gun and will shoot them, they WILL seek a softer target.. 

When's the last time you heard of someone walking into a police station and opening fire?? Why.. Because the police are armed and will fire back.


----------



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yonderfishin said:


> .
> 
> You cant just give a teacher a gun and training and turn them into armed protectors , I dont believe it works that way.


..why not?..when you join the military...you dont know squat about being an armed protector..but..your given a gun and some training..and viola..your now certifed by the govment to lay your life on the line...i agree, there are plenty of teachers who would accept that responsibility to carry..and be conscientious about it..maybe some wouldnt youre right..or maybe they just arent the type to want to carry..but like previous posts..if people are armed..it very well can be a deterrant


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Fishlandr75 said:


> ..why not?..when you join the military...you dont know squat about being an armed protector..but..your given a gun and some training..and viola..your now certifed by the govment to lay your life on the line...i agree, there are plenty of teachers who would accept that responsibility to carry..and be conscientious about it..maybe some wouldnt youre right..or maybe they just arent the type to want to carry..but like previous posts..if people are armed..it very well can be a deterrant



Even when you join the military a gun and some training dont make you a qualified armed protector. Many dont make it , many give up , many are turned into jello by their own fear when they actually have to do anything. It takes a certain type of person , not the type who go into teaching children. You guys make good points but we dont know a very important part of this equation , the teachers point of view. Without knowing that this is all pointless anyway. We who are not teachers , a field "usually" dominated by middle aged to elderly women and men who have spent most of their lives between the covers of a book , ....we can speculate , but the people in this profession would be the ones to make the call , and historically they have been very anti-gun in nature. I bet this would cause quite a stir in the teaching community and we would probably have to replace a good portion of them just to have teachers who wouldnt mind being in a profession where some of their collegues are armed.

But its an interesting discussion. Something needs to be done thats for sure.


----------



## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

jlami said:


> Give the educator the option. If they choose to take advantage of the opportunity then training and certification should be mandatory along with continued training and recertification on a regular basis. Maybe quarterly training, yearly certification, with a minimum of x amount of independent range hours in between. Failure to meet range hours or attend quarterly training session results in forfeiture of licensing. Each school should have a minimum armed teacher to student ratio and teachers who chose to cary should receive a quarterly or yearly bonus. This would be less expensive than hiring armed guards. Make clerical, janitorial, and maintenance employees eligible as well.
> 
> See I just solved the problem.
> 
> ...


How much is that going to cost and whos paying for it? Sounds terribly expensive.


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> How much is that going to cost and whos paying for it? Sounds terribly expensive.


That is for the suits to figure out. I would be in favor of a small levy in our district... I would not suggest the bonus be much more than what it would cost to cover range time and training. This would be far less expensive than employing guards full time at all schools.


Another option would be a volunteer program for vets and or LEO's that would allow them a tax break dependant on how much time they contribute. Man I'm a genius!
posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

jlami said:


> That is for the suits to figure out. I would be in favor of a small levy in our district... I would not suggest the bonus be much more than what it would cost to cover range time and training. This would be far less expensive than employing guards full time at all schools.
> 
> 
> Another option would be a volunteer program for vets and or LEO's that would allow them a tax break dependant on how much time they contribute. Man I'm a genius!
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





Ask the teachers and volunteers , bet youd get a different story. As noble as the cause is , noble dont pay the bills and you know they will want extra pay for extra responsibility , theres also an accountability issue , those getting paid have to hold up their end of the bargain but volunteers come and go and are not reliable when their own issues come up.

Duuuude...........your a genious!  LOL


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Volunteers are not the answer. This needs to be long term, once the excitement wears off of protecting the school (and it would) so will the volunteers. Accountability would also be an issue with volunteers.


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

yonderfishin said:


> Ask the teachers and volunteers , bet youd get a different story. As noble as the cause is , noble dont pay the bills and you know they will want extra pay for extra responsibility , theres also an accountability issue , those getting paid have to hold up their end of the bargain but volunteers come and go and are not reliable when their own issues come up.
> 
> Duuuude...........your a genious!  LOL


You spelled genius wrong, genius.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

But truthfully I disagree. Coming from a school that had the "Fort Brag" thing going the cops on duty could give a crap less what was going on as long as we left them alone... In fact many off them were also on the students "payroll". They loathed their job, being assigned to school cop was worse than traffic detail.

On the other hand if someone is volunteering, they chose to do that and will obviously take some pride in the task. The prisoners leave a little trash on the side of the road, the Kiwanis club gets every single straw wrapper and cigarette butt. Why because they WANT to make a difference. 

So what if your volunteer missed a few hours for a podiatry appointment. How does the bad guy know when the volunteer does or doesn't have a podiatry appt. I again refer to violent crime statistics. There has been a drastic decrease in muggings, car jackings, rapes etc. since the inception of ccw laws. Why, because the bad guy doesn't know who can put a gun in HIS face. The tables turn.
posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

jlami said:


> You spelled genius wrong, genius.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



At this time of night Im lucky to get anything spelled right. Im a jenyus


----------



## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> Even when you join the military a gun and some training dont make you a qualified armed protector. Many dont make it , many give up , many are turned into jello by their own fear when they actually have to do anything. It takes a certain type of person , not the type who go into teaching children. You guys make good points but we dont know a very important part of this equation , the teachers point of view. Without knowing that this is all pointless anyway. We who are not teachers , a field "usually" dominated by middle aged to elderly women and men who have spent most of their lives between the covers of a book , ....we can speculate , but the people in this profession would be the ones to make the call , and historically they have been very anti-gun in nature. I bet this would cause quite a stir in the teaching community and we would probably have to replace a good portion of them just to have teachers who wouldnt mind being in a profession where some of their collegues are armed.
> 
> But its an interesting discussion. Something needs to be done thats for sure.


We actually had 2 teachers give 2 weeks of basic gun safety training leading up to the deer gun season every year. Now given our school was surrounded by hay fields and cow pastures, but i seriously believe there are a few teachers in just about every school in ohio that either is an avid hunter or gun hobbyist. And many that already have a CCW. Heck! When i was in school, during gun season, over half the cars and trucks in the parking lot had a shot gun in the back window or laying on the back seat. And i haven't been out for as long as most of you. Oh how times have changed.....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Bad Bub said:


> We actually had 2 teachers give 2 weeks of basic gun safety training leading up to the deer gun season every year. Now given our school was surrounded by hay fields and cow pastures, but i seriously believe there are a few teachers in just about every school in ohio that either is an avid hunter or gun hobbyist. And many that already have a CCW. Heck! When i was in school, during gun season, over half the cars and trucks in the parking lot had a shot gun in the back window or laying on the back seat. And i haven't been out for as long as most of you. Oh how times have changed.....
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



The problem is much bigger than just one school or even one state.Whats called for is a radical change in thinking and a new way of doing things nationwide. Many schools especially in other areas dont have pickup drivin gun totin teachers that go hunting or shooting in their free time. There are whole communities who see guns as just evil instruments of death. Wont be quite so easy arming teachers in those places


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

yonderfishin said:


> The problem is much bigger than just one school or even one state.Whats called for is a radical change in thinking and a new way of doing things nationwide. Many schools especially in other areas dont have pickup drivin gun totin teachers that go hunting or shooting in their free time. There are whole communities who see guns as just evil instruments of death. Wont be quite so easy arming teachers in those places


Are you single or divorced? You are more pessimistic than my mother.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## billk (Feb 2, 2008)

Net said:


> How many here believe Adam Lanza's mental illness was caused by music, movies, or video games?


Adam Lanza was messed up in the head, his mother allegedly knew it and ultimately failed to get him the help he needed or had anywhere to send him to remove him from society. There are too many conflicting reports but his mother was somehow associated with that school, maybe as a volunteer, maybe many years ago. If that's the case, its pretty obvious that Adam Lanza had mommy issues and took it out on the school/kids "that mommy loves more than me".


----------



## jschaeff23 (Apr 7, 2012)

We had 2 armed, uniformed police at my suburban high school . This discussion came up at a Christmas party and my younger sister who attended 3 years after had to be reminded about their presence. It was no big deal. I don't understand the outrage about having officers in the schools. Also, I graduated 15 years ago and from talking with others I have found out that there is still a presence to this day.


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

jlami said:


> Are you single or divorced? You are more pessimistic than my mother.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




Not pessimistic ,....realistic


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

yonderfishin said:


> Not pessimistic ,....realistic


You know what's really funny. I told my mother in law she was pessimistic as she argued the weather with me tonight... Her response, "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist." Then she continued to fuss at our server because he did not bring more rolls to the table... 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## Wow (May 17, 2010)

Congratulations everyone! 100 posts without the lock. Very impressive. We all deserve a hand. --Tim


----------



## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

Wow said:


> Congratulations everyone! 100 posts without the lock. Very impressive. We all deserve a hand. --Tim
> 
> View attachment 67901
> 
> ...


Kagee must be out of town for the holiday... Merry Xmas, just jokes.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

jlami said:


> You know what's really funny. I told my mother in law she was pessimistic as she argued the weather with me tonight... Her response, "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist." Then she continued to fuss at our server because he did not bring more rolls to the table...
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




Hahaha!.........merry christmas to ya.


----------



## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

jlami said:


> Kagee must be out of town for the holiday... Merry Xmas, just jokes.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Very funny! +1.


----------



## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

As far as some teacher`s willingness to pull a gun and use it to save their student`s lives, can`t say. BUT at LEAST 3 of the 6 teachers KILLED ran TO the classes under assault to attempt to stop it UNARMED. Stop and THINK about that...the Chief of Police admitted he wasn`t sure HE would have done that unarmed. He pointed out they were perfectly within their rights to cower and hide but in spite of facing all but CERTAIN DEATH they tried anyway. Truely, they were as BRAVE as any Medal of Honor awardee...and if armed, honestly believe they WOULD have done "more" to protect their charges...


----------



## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i dont think anything will completly stop things like this from happening. there are just to many people out there that has no morals in there lives. you cant just group all people with mental problems in the same group. i have been treated for depression for the last 25 yrs, and ptsd for the last 10 yrs. and what happed just appalls me.

you just never know whats going on in somebody elces mind untill its just to late. i worked with a good friend and talked to him at work one day. i had him do me a favor in the machine shop where he worked. he seemed happy and joked with me. then went home that afternoon and shot himself. i would never have guessed he would do something like this.

i do believe if we put discipline and morals and god back in our schools it might help somewhere down the road. there are just so many kids that dont get these things at home. they do need to have some structure in there lives from somewhere. to many people want to pass the buck to the parents, but they just dont do there jobs. and somebody needs to.
sherman


----------



## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm all for armed guards in schools and I nominate the NRA to pay for it nationwide since it was orginally their idea.


----------



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Lewzer said:


> I'm all for armed guards in schools and I nominate the NRA to pay for it nationwide since it was orginally their idea.


the school obama's daughter goes too has 11 armed guards, THAT IM PAYING FOR.....

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...s-11-Armed-Guards-Not-Counting-Secret-Service

please all you gun control people out there, feel free to comment on this PLEASE!!!


----------



## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

> the school obama's daughter goes too has 11 armed guards, THAT IM PAYING FOR.....


Yes, you are and are probabaly still paying for Amy Carter, Chelsea Clinton, and the 2 Bush Jr. daughter's SS protection. Romney and his family's SS protection is gone by now since he lost.
But again, that wasn't the NRA's idea.

I think the NRA should step up and show the nation how really concerned they are with our nation's schoolchildren. We both know it will never happen.


----------



## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

I know a lot of people are focusing their thoughts and energy on arming people or guns and/or locking down schools ect...,. but I think there is another path of thought that seriously needs to be considered. 

What do a lot of these murderers have in common? Almost all of them were taking prescribed medicine for depression, ADHD and ect..,.

SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, are the pharmaceutical companies latest cash cows. Their use has skyrocketed in the last ten years. Nicknamed "Chemical Babysitters" and designated anti depressants, they are causing dozens of murders, thousands of psychoses and are altering the minds of millions of users. All but a very few of the latest "Mass Murderers" have been on these drugs. Schools encourage parents to put their children on these drugs for the smallest signs of "non conformity". Schools receive more money for "disabled" students.

I think we need to start looking here! I know that my wife and I both took Welbutrin to stop smoking, One of the side affects is raging (printed right on the box) and I can tell you that both of us, had episodes of exactly that and we quit taking the drug altogether! 

I certainly think it is worth discussing and reviewing! There are a lot of kids on drugs nowadays that never existed just a very short time ago!


----------

