# Higher Taxes



## Berliner (Feb 23, 2011)

Just curious what you guys have done to make up the money lost due to higher taxes. Ive canceled my satellite TV service, I dont need it and I can find Axe Men streaming online for free. Ive been eating at subway making a $5 sub into 2 meals and just drinking water from work. When gas is high I dont fill my tank I just put enough in to last 2 days. Anymore Ideas/Tips? Please dont make it political..


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yup..i"ll definitely go back to hunting my own nightcrawlers/redworms, and raising my waxworms and mealworms again and seining my own minnies...might sound silly..but i fish a lot..and can easily spend $30/month on live bait.
As far as the other stuff goes..i do the same with the gas fillups..just enough to last a couple days when the price is high..and carpooling to work if/when possible. Grocery stores have always been and will always be expensive..We try to buy generic brands, on sale items and use lotsa coupons!


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## robertj298 (Feb 23, 2009)

Berliner said:


> Just curious what you guys have done to make up the money lost due to higher taxes. Ive canceled my satellite TV service, I dont need it and I can find Axe Men streaming online for free. Ive been eating at subway making a $5 sub into 2 meals and just drinking water from work. When gas is high I dont fill my tank I just put enough in to last 2 days. Anymore Ideas/Tips? Please dont make it political..


What higher taxes? I haven't noticed any increase.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

He is one of those who makes $450,000+ a year. Mine didn't go up either.


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

robertj298 said:


> What higher taxes? I haven't noticed any increase.


It's the F.I.C.A. tax. If you don't pay into the SS system you won't notice the difference.


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

Good ideas, they say if you take care of the pennies the dollars will take care of themselves. I eat lunch at my desk from a sandwich brought from home. Make my own coffee in the morning and bring to work. No cell phone... that's correct not a typo, no cell phone and I'm still alive somehow. Saw an additional 2% charge today on an invoice from a medical manufacturer company. The new Health Care Medical Excise Tax from the Affordable Care Act is being charged now. Who do you think is gonna get to pay that when everyone gets cranked up to do it. Do you think health care providers are not going to pass that charge onto patients?
Oh yeah back to the thread question. I fish from an old boat, fixed the motor when it broke 2years ago instead of buying new, I put money into my old car and truck to keep them running and just refuse to get myself into debt right now. Good thread.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

> It's the F.I.C.A. tax.


It didn't go up. It just reverted back to the historically normal rate from the temporary 4.2% rate. The temporary rate expired as planned.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm not doing anything different. I just stashed the extra I got from the temporary 4.2% rate just like the extra from 2003 temporary tax cuts. My W-4 exemptions are the same now as then. I just won't get the big refund anymore if they decide to allow the rates go back to the normal historical rates.


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## Stars-n-Stripers (Nov 15, 2007)

lewzer said:


> i'm not doing anything different. I just stashed the extra i got from the temporary 4.2% rate just like the extra from 2003 temporary tax cuts. My w-4 exemptions are the same now as then. I just won't get the big refund anymore if they decide to allow the rates go back to the normal historical rates.


+1...........


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## 10fish (May 12, 2005)

We have started to do more pre-meal planning/ freezing. Cook it up in bulk, portion up meal sizes, seal and freeze it. Haven't done canning yet, but maybe that also a way to go. 

It's amazing how low your cost per meal can get when cooking in bulk.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Normal historical rates? Historically taxes have been all over the board. There is no normal. When you pay less taxes, it's a decrease. When you pay more, an increase. Not complicated.. But I see you've adopted the terminology of a certain party..

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I also haven't received a raise in 4 years and the medical insurance premiums have gone up too. 

We no longer have cable or a gym membership. We have Netflix instead. I have a pay per minute cell phone that I use sparingly. It works out to about $10/month. We shop at Save A Lot or Aldi's a lot more. Have to pack the groceries ourselves, but don't feel as bad about the bill when walking out. We shop at the goodwill and yard sales for clothes before going to retail places especially for the kids. Furniture we buy from used furniture stores or craigslist. Just got a couch, chair, and ottoman from craigslist for $100! Sold the old couch for $60 too! Fishing and Hunting equipment, I buy from the  OGF Marketplace  when possible. I'll be searching for my own nightcrawlers as well. We try and do the repairs ourselves when possible. I put off replacing the bearings and wiring in the trailer this year and fished from shore. Only had the boat out once this year. I learned how to change brake pads and rotors a couple of years ago and saved a lot of money. We use the coupons whenever possible, especially for eating out. Haven't bought a ticket to a pro sporting event or concert in years. Also planning a bigger garden for next year and maybe learning to can spaghetti sauce. 


Just treading water until the wife finds a good paying job! She's been looking for 3 years! Still, we managed to buy a better house to move the kids to a better school district by cleaning out my 401k for the down payment. We figured that housing was a better investment than the stock market right now. Found a fixer upper house at a low price and now have at least 30% equity! Even with all the sacrifices we have made, it has been the best year we have had since the kids were born!


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I almost forgot, we also bought a Magic Jack phone system that hooks up to your internet service and is much cheaper than standard home phone service!


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

Mushijobah said:


> Normal historical rates? Historically taxes have been all over the board. There is no normal. When you pay less taxes, it's a decrease. When you pay more, an increase. Not complicated..
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Your comments make too much sense. That's not to be tolerated. You must spin them and use words like average and historical to make it sound like someone's not squeezing blood out of your turnip.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Sorry guys, not biting. 
He asked what I am doing different. The answer is nothing.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

No, I am quite certain this thread has NO chance for becoming political. I mean, come on, the odds are way against it right, right, right?


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mushijobah said:


> Normal historical rates? Historically taxes have been all over the board. There is no normal. When you pay less taxes, it's a decrease. When you pay more, an increase. Not complicated.. But I see you've adopted the terminology of a certain party..
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/fica-tax-rates-will-change-for-2013-56208/


> Beginning with wages paid in 2013, an additional 0.9% Medicare tax rate will apply to single employees who earn more than $200,000 and to married couples who file joint tax returns and earn more than $250,000. For high earners, therefore, the total Medicare tax rate will be 2.35%. In 2012, the rate is 1.45% for all employees.
> 
> Employers will not pay the additional 0.9% in matching contributions. The additional 0.9% is based on single status; married couples who are underwithheld will pay quarterly estimated taxes. +I.R.C. § 3101(b)(2).
> 
> In addition, the temporary 2% cut in the employee Social Security tax rate is scheduled to expire on December 31, 2012. The current 4.2% rate will revert back to 6.2% unless it is extended in federal legislation.


Temporary means not permanent regardless of party affiliation.

http://www.darwinsmoney.com/fica-limit-2013/
to understand the FICA tax rates and what changed and why.


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## wave warrior (Oct 2, 2005)

being self employed/small business owner i havent seen the "change" nor is there any in my pocket!! thank god my accountant handles payroll, taxes etc or i would likely go postal haha!


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Bucket Mouth said:


> Your comments make too much sense. That's not to be tolerated. You must spin them and use words like average and historical to make it sound like someone's not squeezing blood out of your turnip.


Makes too much sense to someone who doesn't know what they are reading maybe.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html



> For 2010, most employers were exempt from paying the employer share of OASDI tax on wages paid to certain qualified individuals hired after February 3. For 2011 and 2012, the OASDI tax rate is reduced by 2 percentage points for employees and for self-employed workers, resulting in a 4.2 percent effective tax rate for employees and a 10.4 percent effective tax rate for self-employed workers. These reductions in tax revenue due to lower tax rates will be made up by transfers from the general fund of the Treasury to the OASI and DI trust funds. Beginning in 2013, an additional HI tax of 0.9 percent is assessed on earned income exceeding $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. This additional HI tax rate is not reflected in the tax rates shown in the table.


Also:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/thesba/...yroll-updates-tax-changes-for-small-business/



> Expired Payroll Tax Cut resulting in 2% more in employee social security tax withholding &#8211; As of December 31, 2012, the Payroll Tax Cut expired. This cut reduced payroll taxes by 2%. The 2012 FICA tax rate was 4.2% for employees and 6.2% for employers under the Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act of 2012. However, bills currently being considered in Congress may change this but until Congress acts to further extend the 4.2 percent rate, the employee rate will withhold based on 6.2% with paychecks beginning in January 2013. The 2013 FICA tax rate, which is the combined Social Security tax rate of 6.2% and the Medicare tax rate of 1.45%, will be 7.65% for 2013 up to the social security wage base. The maximum social security tax employees and employers will each pay in 2013 is $7,049.40. This will be an increase of $2,425.20 for employees and $223.20 for employers. The employer rate remains 6.2 percent. The Medicare rate, also matched by the employer, is unchanged at 1.45 percent and applies to all wages.


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## Bonecrusher (Aug 7, 2010)

I know I got the increase and it stinks. It's a heck of a lot of money. Espcially when we weren't supposed to see any increases at all.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

You guys can spin things and show all the cut-n-pastes you want. All I care about is my paychecks in 2013 are smaller than they were in 2012, that&#8217;s an increase in my book. Not to mention, we no longer have a flex plan, so that money is no longer coming out of my check, and it&#8217;s STILL smaller than last year. I think that was the point of this thread.


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## bassmastermjb (Apr 8, 2004)

I just had all my lower teeth pulled. Now its oatmeal,applesauce and cottage cheese for breakfast, lunch and dinner.That cut the food bill down..........Mark


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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

Even Phil Mickelson is feeling it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/01/21/phil-mickelson-is-not-alone-in-fleeing-taxes/


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

Paying off couple bills.... Trying to lower my overhead, by reducing car insurance coverage..Kicking my adult kids off my insurance, auto, and medical. They both work, they each have more money them myself and wife, so its time I think. Not sure why it bothers me that I am though.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

When they announced the reduction to 4.2% for 2012 I increased my 401k deduction to Roth by the net 2%....so I didn't really see the difference in 2012 in take home pay. Rather than decrease my contribution for 2013 I am just going to live with it and continue to save the additional 2% in Roth. I won't change anything...maybe drink a few less expensive beers each month when meeting up after work with folks. Might save a few bucks and lose a few lbs.LOL

And considering less than 50% of Americans pay ANY tax at all in the end this is only impacting less than half of us..urgh!!!

If you own a business you should be concerned about the Ohio Use Tax......If you have not opened an account through the OH Amnisty Program and filed a OH Use Tax return expect an audit from the state forthcoming. Ohio is broke and they are using this avenue to levy big dollars out of unsuspecting OH business owners. Even if you have no OH use tax file the return with zeros......historically the state has gone after employers without a return and left the others alone. This is only applicable to for profit entites, but you better be prepared. It is a complex set of rules and you should consult with a SALT expert (state and local tax)....spending a little now could save you huge dollars in taxes to the state. I've seen first hand where OH went into a manufacturer and levide tax on several hundred thousand dollars worth of internet purchases from MI. Employer thought it was exempt.........lucky for them their business had almost zero debt at the time and they were able to utilize leverage and stay afloat. Any substantial debt and they would have been looking for a buyer at discount and closed shop.

Between the OH Use Tax and the Affordable Care Act many empolyers are going to be in for real trouble.....and they don't even know it! Scary times approaching from this legislation and the large effects won't be seen for a couple years......I hope it works out for us, but have real concerns as to how this will impact economic growth and stability moving forward.


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## Wow (May 17, 2010)

Thanks Berliner, for a timely thread. 
It pains me to see the same rhetoric thread after thread that violate the terms of service. A surgical removal of the violating posts could preserve your thread so that OGF'ers can respond to your relevent question.

I do contract work. The clothes I wear, last for 8 to 10 weeks, shoes, about 4 months. I have been visiting thrift stores to find workwear and footwear. I can save over $400 anually. Work clothing has never been deductable for contractors, unless you use a clothing supplier like Cintas and steel-toed shoes. Fortunately, there are plenty of Goodwills, Salvation Armys, and Volunteers of America thrift stores. --Tim


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

What higher taxes? I just filed my taxes and couldn't be happier about my situation  Insurance premiums and all. If I have to pay 2% more for a retainer or hip joint so be it. Small cost to live in such a great country if you ask me.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

I guess ogf supports higher taxes since someone deleted my post why there shouldn't be higher taxes. My post wasnt political.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

I filed for divorce, it was final November 20th....got the house and sole custody of my son! Now my EX is paying child support! My car insurance is now cheaper, medical insurance, the Electric bill and Gas bill is cheaper, toliet paper, shampoo, paper towels, etc, etc, etc, is all now cheaper....if I knew I would be saving this much....I would have filed a long time ago!!!LOL


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> What higher taxes? I just filed my taxes and couldn't be happier about my situation  Insurance premiums and all. If I have to pay 2% more for a retainer or hip joint so be it. Small cost to live in such a great country if you ask me.


We're talking 2013. Your checks after the new year are probably smaller. You won't file them til '14.

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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mushijobah said:


> We're talking 2013. Your checks after the new year are probably smaller. You won't file them til '14.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Actually I'm making more money than I ever have. No doubt about it. Not trying to brag or boast, I'm just not buying into the doom and gloom. This is the greatest country on earth and I still feel whatever the price is, its a small price to pay. Talk to me again in 30 years when I go to draw on my SS and its not there. I might have a slightly different outlook  And I don't really blame that on todays politicians as much as those who structured the program to begin with. Hard to predict the baby boom though I suppose so I ain't that mad at em. Get all those illegals on the rolls please. That's our only hope as I see it.

Again, this is what we are bitching about here..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax

"Regular" employees (most wage-earners)


Share of federal revenue from different tax sources. Individual income taxes (blue), payroll taxes/FICA (green), corporate income taxes (red).[6]
Year	Rate	Compensation Limit	Maximum Tax
2008	6.2%	$102,000	$6,324.00
2009	6.2%	$106,800	$6,621.60
2010	6.2%	$106,800	$6,621.60
2011	4.2%	$106,800	$4,485.60
2012	4.2%	$110,100	$4,624.20
2013	6.2%	$113,700	$7,049.40


So he giveths and takeths away.


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## Thor (May 3, 2012)

try buying giftcards at giant eagle, FOR giant eagle. rack up 20 cents in "fuel perks" for every $50 you spend in gift cards, and then use those gift cards for food, while getting more money off in gas. If you use your G.E credit card its like 4 cents more bonus per $50 spent.

You get 1% off groceries for every $10 spent on gas. If you keep the cycle you could save a good amount. Ex, 50 dollar shopping trip with G.E credit card = 24Cents off gas/gallon x 20 gallons for your truck/suv is almost a free subway footlong saved in one trip) The 20 gallons also gives you 2% off groceries for your next trip. save your percent off for a larger trip (over $100, so you save a buck + per percent off) Couple this with Coupons from the paper???

G.E. can be expensive at times, for some things, but stock up on manager specials thru the week, and fill your freezer with meat. Buy frozen fruit/veggies - theyre healthier than canned (flash frozen, more vitamins, better texture/flavor, less sodium - instead of being cooked and brined n canned) and usually cheaper too.

Note... check meat prices too. ground turkey has been cheaper than beef lately, I made some awesome turkey meatballs for spaghetti !


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Actually I'm making more money than I ever have. No doubt about it. Not trying to brag or boast, I'm just not buying into the doom and gloom. This is the greatest country on earth and I still feel whatever the price is, its a small price to pay. Talk to me again in 30 years when I go to draw on my SS and its not there. I might have a slightly different outlook  And I don't really blame that on todays politicians as much as those who structured the program to begin with. Hard to predict the baby boom though I suppose so I ain't that mad at em. Get all those illegals on the rolls please. That's our only hope as I see it.
> 
> Again, this is what we are bitching about here..
> 
> ...


I too am making more than I ever have. No thanks to the government though. Unlike what certain politicials might think, we are responsible for our succeses and failures. 

So yes, I will complain about an increase in taxes in any form. Approximately 50% of my pay ends up going to the feds, the state, the school district, and the city. I will continue to complain too if my salary continues to increase. I know how poorly these agencies manage money. I've seen it first hand. It's a joke. Not to mention the direction many citizens are heading in respect to handouts. It's scary.

And yes, we have had enough time to deal with the baby boom....nobody did though. We have known about it since just after WWII...

Stay outa my pocket!


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

Mushijobah said:


> Stay outa my pocket!


And that dear folks is the bottom line. 
We had plenty of time to prepare for the baby boomers and had the money but somebody spent it (can't say who it would be political)


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

EnonEye said:


> And that dear folks is the bottom line.
> We had plenty of time to prepare for the baby boomers and had the money but somebody spent it (can't say who it would be political)


Good answer!


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## Berliner (Feb 23, 2011)

My paycheck today is smaller than the one I got on 1/11/13


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## snow on top (Nov 25, 2008)

here in Ohio Tax's are low go to New York.I could not believe how much tax we were paying. granted wages are about 50% higher which sounded good but they are ate up by Tax.Two more weeks and we are out of here..


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

Mushijobah,

I'm not doubting what you say but, I would be looking into why almost 50% of my pay is being withheld.
Also, why complain if your salary continues to increase?


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Thor said:


> If you keep the cycle you could save a good amount. Ex, 50 dollar shopping trip with G.E credit card = 24Cents off gas/gallon x 20 gallons for your truck/suv is almost a *free subway footlong* saved in one trip.


Don't you mean a free subway 11 incher?  That's another thing that got smaller with the new year according to the internet articles!


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Hook N Book said:


> Mushijobah,
> 
> I'm not doubting what you say but, I would be looking into why almost 50% of my pay is being withheld.
> Also, why complain if your salary continues to increase?


I'm not talking about tax withholding specifically, but all tax, including sales. The vast majority is income tax, though. Single incomes get taxed pretty hard.

And, I explained why I'm complaining. Because the money is in many cases being wasted. Just because someone makes more money doesn't mean they don't have a right to care about that money and how it is spent or taken. Surely you don't agree with every organization your tax money is being sent to...

Edit: your smilies didn't appear on my browser so if you are trying to razz me....it worked!!


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## willy (Apr 27, 2007)

I turn my underwear inside out so I can get another 6 months out of them. Saves on the water bill and is better for the environment.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

willy said:


> I turn my underwear inside out so I can get another 6 months out of them. Saves on the water bill and is better for the environment.


..were just gonna assume your joking : )


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## chardoncrestliner (Dec 19, 2012)

One interesting component of the Affordable Care Act to come in 2014 is a look back to 2013.

If you have more than 50 employees and any of them work more than 30 hours per week you will be mandated to purchase health care for them, so instead of part time employees now working 35 hours, employers will be forced to move them back to 29 hours per week on average to avoid this increase.

This is going to hurt low to moderate income workers.

Secondly, if you smoke, starting in 2014, your health care premium could go up by approximately 4,000 per year. They don't mention those that are obese, heavy drinkers, etc.

Look for more surprises and taxes coming down the pike.

The only saving grace is that the Governor is attempting to do away with the State Income Tax. 

As far as my income, I will be losing money since I work 32.5 hours, by choice per week and was considered part-time. Now to save my job, I'll have to cut back to 29 hours in order to keep my job because my employer won't provide health insurance.

Stay tuned to additional taxes that you will be seeing in the near future.

This is not political, this is just the facts.


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

Mushijobah said:


> I'm not talking about tax withholding specifically, but all tax, including sales. The vast majority is income tax, though. Single incomes get taxed pretty hard.
> 
> Edit: your smilies didn't appear on my browser so if you are trying to razz me....it worked!!


No sir, I was not razzing you, though there are a few smilies there.

After your post, I checked my stub and it was nowhere near 50%. it was more like 24%...so, I'd hate to think I'm spending another 24-26% in sales/Fuel/real estate tax. That would go to the OP's question, what to do to offset the 2% adjustment.

And FTR, I'm single also and have additional dollars withheld just 
to be on the safe side. And of course I care where my money goes.


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## Fisherman 3234 (Sep 8, 2008)

Gas prices are still high, energy prices are increasing, food prices are rising, economy still sucks, my paycheck deceased (taxes)= NOT A HAPPY PERSON. Pretty cut and dry. Doesn't really matter which party your with, the government is doing an awful job (both parties).


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mushijobah said:


> I too am making more than I ever have. No thanks to the government though. Unlike what certain politicials might think, we are responsible for our succeses and failures.
> 
> So yes, I will complain about an increase in taxes in any form. Approximately 50% of my pay ends up going to the feds, the state, the school district, and the city. I will continue to complain too if my salary continues to increase. I know how poorly these agencies manage money. I've seen it first hand. It's a joke. Not to mention the direction many citizens are heading in respect to handouts. It's scary.
> 
> ...


Which political party is that? The one who's focus is on how many jobs "government" creates and quality of said jobs? Is it the same party who brings up the unemployment figures but only when they can spin them negative? If that's not wanting you to think they have something to do with our individual success, then I don't know what to say. Thy pretty much campaigned solely on that premise this past election.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Which political party is that? The one who's focus is on how many jobs "government" creates and quality of said jobs? Is it the same party who brings up the unemployment figures but only when they can spin them negative? If that's not wanting you to think they have something to do with our individual success, then I don't know what to say. Thy pretty much campaigned solely on that premise this past election.


Who are you referring to?! Come on just say it...

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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mushijobah said:


> Who are you referring to?! Come on just say it...
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


No you! I was just trying to figure out who you were talking about!


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Hook N Book said:


> No sir, I was not razzing you, though there are a few smilies there.
> 
> After your post, I checked my stub and it was nowhere near 50%. it was more like 24%...so, I'd hate to think I'm spending another 24-26% in sales/Fuel/real estate tax. That would go to the OP's question, what to do to offset the 2% adjustment.
> 
> ...


I pay 6% of my income to property tax.

We all pay Ohio's 5.5% sales tax on many items. More in certain cities.

Columbus employees, residents, and many other municipalities pay a 2.5% income tax.

About 4% income by the state of ohio.

Gasoline, resturaunts, drinks all additional.

Not to mention at least 25% fed income.

It sure adds up quick. Some necessary evils, some completely unnecessary!


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## FSHNERIE (Mar 5, 2005)

Lewzer said:


> It didn't go up. It just reverted back to the historically normal rate from the temporary 4.2% rate. The temporary rate expired as planned.


Correct......


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## FSHNERIE (Mar 5, 2005)

You need help......


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Yup , theres some tax surprises you wont realize until you file your 2013 tax forms. More to come 2014 and beyond.


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## JignPig Guide (Aug 3, 2007)

chardoncrestliner said:


> This is going to hurt low to moderate income workers.
> 
> As far as my income, I will be losing money since I work 32.5 hours, by choice per week and was considered part-time. Now to save my job, I'll have to cut back to 29 hours in order to keep my job because my employer won't provide health insurance.
> 
> ...


I agree with your sentence that states, "This is not political, this is just the facts."

But the only real fact in your post that cannot be spun by either side is... The 'Job Creator' (This is what we're supposed to call them these days.) you work for won't provide health insurance for their employees. 

Your comment stating health insurance for low to moderate income workers will hurt them is a rhetorical comment.
Your comment stating additional taxes will be in our near future is another rhetorical comment.
Aren't there taxes involved with the $3-trillion dollar Iraq war? Oh I forgot. We're not supposed to remember our old bills.

So upon further review...  I do not agree with your "This is not political, this is just the facts." comment.
You are saying that low to moderate income employees throughout the nation will be hurt if they are provided with affordable health care.


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## willy (Apr 27, 2007)

Fishlandr75 said:


> ..were just gonna assume your joking : )


8) well if your really good at Origami, you could get 6 years out of them ...
it wouldn't let me just post a smiley face, lol


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## sbreech (Jun 6, 2010)

JignPig Guide said:


> You are saying that low to moderate income employees throughout the nation will be hurt if they are provided with affordable health care.


Yes. If an employer is scraping by (the economy isn't exactly booming yet) and paying employees $10 an hour, and their product provided is already at the cusp of what consumers will pay before they turn to WalMart, and that employer now is forced to either provide health insurance (costing them $$$) or reduce the employees' hours, then yes, it will hurt them. Or, they could always jump into a group insurance plan and offer the employees the insurance without paying any of the premium amounts, allowing the employees to pay the entire $8,000-$15,000 per year for that plan. A full-time employee at $12.00 an hour will only earn $24960 per year, so I can't see them shelling out 1/2 of that for health insurance, unless they can go to the doctor with a condition called starving and freezing and get a prescription for food and shelter with a $15 copay for a 3 month supply. At this point, the employer cuts the employees back from 40 to 30 hours per week, cutting their gross annual pay to $18720 with a net loss of $6240 per year.
[/COLOR] 
So, in essence, the employers that do this ARE in fact finding a way to combat the higher taxes / imposed fees by reducing employee hours, which in turn hurts the employees paycheck.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I thought we were talking about taxes?!

On health care: how do you expect more people paying in effect premiums? Also take into consideration us taxpayers are footing a large portion and in some cases all of their bill now.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

sbreech said:


> Yes. If an employer is scraping by (the economy isn't exactly booming yet) and paying employees $10 an hour, and their product provided is already at the cusp of what consumers will pay before they turn to WalMart, and that employer now is forced to either provide health insurance (costing them $$$) or reduce the employees' hours, then yes, it will hurt them. Or, they could always jump into a group insurance plan and offer the employees the insurance without paying any of the premium amounts, allowing the employees to pay the entire $8,000-$15,000 per year for that plan. A full-time employee at $12.00 an hour will only earn $24960 per year, so I can't see them shelling out 1/2 of that for health insurance, unless they can go to the doctor with a condition called starving and freezing and get a prescription for food and shelter with a $15 copay for a 3 month supply. At this point, the employer cuts the employees back from 40 to 30 hours per week, cutting their gross annual pay to $18720 with a net loss of $6240 per year.
> [/COLOR]
> So, in essence, the employers that do this ARE in fact finding a way to combat the higher taxes / imposed fees by reducing employee hours, which in turn hurts the employees paycheck.






Exactly. 

So many times an idea looks much better on paper than it does in reality.


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

The 2 percent tax hike, which was scheduled, is relatively small potatoes, but it is good that it got a lot of people's attention. We need more discussions like this one to educate people who lack a fundamental understanding of taxation in general.

This tax hike is also the tip of the iceberg. The tax increases that are coming at us are going to be substantial and are going to be around for a long time.

No one in Washington is considering any serious slashing of the deficit. Its as if they are all holding their breath for now. 

Oh, and the states are broke too. 

I predict we'll see things like hunting licenses for $50 maybe and perhaps $45 to $50 to go fishing...$250 to renew your car's license plates and annual boat fees that will also skyrocket. Drivers license renewal fee at $75 or even more, and on and on. How about $50 for a dog license? I'm only speculating on the results but the hikes are coming...they have to. I'm not sure where or how they'll be slated, I'm only guessing.

We will, at some point in the next several years, almost surely see all federal brackets all rising by 5 to 10 percent for all Americans, that is, at least for the 50% or so of us that actually pay taxes at all. But we will all pay one way or another for the malfeasance and recklessness of our so called leaders.

If you think you needed to tighten your belt now, just wait about 3 years or so, when all these giveaway programs kick in full bore and employers begin to raise the prices of goods and services to pay for them...while simultaneously, your federal, state, and local taxes rise as they most certainly must, some of them in ways we never heard of in the past.

Trillions of debt at the federal level. Billions of deficits at the state level. The numbers are staggering and the day of reckoning will be here soon.

Beans and weenies anyone? Ramon noodles? The time to pay the piper is coming to a theater near you.


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

Lewzer said:


> I'm not doing anything different.


Me either. Consistent good habits pay off.

Personally I'm glad to see the money going back into SS, I just wish those people would keep their stinking hands off of our money once it gets in there.


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Also take into consideration us taxpayers are footing a large portion and in some cases all of their bill now.


Dead on, we have been paying the bills for deadbeats for decades.

I work with a gal whose husband is self employed. They carry no insurance but have racked up medical bills in excess of $50K. They pay ONLY $20 a month on their obligations, 'cuz it's all they have to do. They are showing 'effort' in paying their obligations. 

I doubt he'd sit still if one of his clients paid that slowly.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

About a month ago, I received a letter from the City of Cleveland Water Department that my rates are increasing. This "RATE INCREASE" is for the rain that falls on the roof of my house and driveway??? Funny how our government has a nice way of saying taxation without representation. I can't wait until the city gets it's bill and has to pass it on to the residents. Hey Mushi, here in Cuyahoga county we pay 7.75% sales tax. The most recent sales tax increase was another taxation without representation. The commisioners just imposed it upon us. At least 1 of them is in jail.  It's become apparent that reguardless of how much we're taxed it's never enough. Where else can someone be taxed by 4 seperate government entities, in one country? Too much government!


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

I thought all the financial woes of this country were going to be solved by raising tax rates on everybody making more than 250K/yr. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I heard that before the election. 

To answer the original question, we've always clipped coupons, did the gift cards/ grocery gas deal, buy stuff only when on sale, use credit card rewards, etc...so we're doing nothing different, always been frugal.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

> This "RATE INCREASE" is for the rain that falls on the roof of my house and driveway???


Here's something funny for you, I've been told by a former city parks official that the city park system is the largest payer to the sewer fee, I think based on roof/pavement square footage. She was frustrated when she said the parks are where the stormwater goes TO instead of FROM.

I have my own house set up so that about half of my roof runoff goes to the back garden, but I don't get a stormwater fee break for that.


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## Camo tow (Jul 19, 2012)

Social security tax was cut in 2009 to give us more money to spend as to help the economy,it was TEMPORARY.How hard is that to understand,read more understand more.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

Agitation Free said:


> About a month ago, I received a letter from the City of Cleveland Water Department that my rates are increasing. This "RATE INCREASE" is for the rain that falls on the roof of my house and entities, in one country? Too much government!


Parents live in Strongsville and they were notified of a rate increase. Pretty significant for them. They were pretty p.o.'d. Dad was saying how he is thinking of going back to work. Dad, your almost 90 dude. He'd still put some of these kids to shame though. That is another thread I think...


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

I am proud to be one of that 47%... I'm happy with the $36.00 raise I got on SS. I am just happy the little guy who cam riding out of Wisconcin who was going to save SS and "Fix" my Union Pension took a fall.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

JignPig Guide said:


> I
> Your comment stating health insurance for low to moderate income workers will hurt them is a rhetorical comment.
> Your comment stating additional taxes will be in our near future is another rhetorical comment.
> Aren't there taxes involved with the $3-trillion dollar Iraq war? Oh I forgot. We're not supposed to remember our old bills.
> ...


"Aren't there taxes involved with the $3-trillion dollar Iraq war? Oh I forgot. We're not supposed to remember our old bills." 

The Congressional Budget Offfice, or CBO (they're a non partisan organization that scores the cost of government activities) released a report stating that the combined totals of the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion dollars by 2017. With 1.9 trillion of that total being attributed solely to the Iraq war That's the combined total for both wars. Not just the Iraq war. That cost includes interest. 

Since we're not allowed overtly political posts I won't mention the pork that was piled on top of those war funding bills. 

And gotta love the low to moderate income families will be provided with affordable healthcare, statement. They aren't being provided with anything. It's not free. You have to buy it, or be subject to what amounts to a sin tax for not buying it. 

If you think you're going to buy a fully loaded car for the price of the base model, you're sadly mistaken.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

JignPig Guide said:


> I
> But the only real fact in your post that cannot be spun by either side is... The 'Job Creator' (This is what we're supposed to call them these days.) you work for won't provide health insurance for their employees.


JPG, Your years as a union president has severely skewed your opinion of the folks that risk everything they have everyday to assure good paying jobs for your members and others. You are an employer hater and your hate disqualifies the entire rest of your post that I left out here. I have your members on my projects every day and the hate propaganda they receive from their labor organizations is astounding. I was a member of one for 21 years and I know exactly what I'm talking about and where it originates from. You have absolutely NO IDEA what it takes to run a business and employ people. The taxes we pay are excessive and we have no more to give. Every time our taxes are raised, and raises are coming I'm certain as it has been clearly stated, it costs jobs. When we have to give up another piece of the little profit we have left we have to eliminate a cost to cover it. The only costs we have left to eliminate are workers. These genius policies are the root of the driving down of workers wages and the explosion of illegal workers taking what used to be good paying jobs. THERE IS NO MORE ROOM FOR GOVERNMENT MANDATED COSTS. The new health care act is NOT a means of affordable healthcare but instead a HUGE government boondoggle that has already cost money and jobs. Our insurance that we provide our employees just went up another 10% TWO DAYS AGO. Our customers WILL NOT let us pass that cost onto them as their rates for their employees has risen too. What are we supposed to do? Just who the hell do you think pays for all this stuff? You truly have no idea.
The SS rate return in the original OP post was was noticed by all of our employees just like others have stated here. It was not a tax increase but it did remove clear income that so many have grown to expect. I believe that small increase that has caught so much attention is a perfect indicator of how tired we all tired are of excessive taxes. We have had our fill here. We, as a company, make about 40% of what we did just six years ago for the basically the same output. How is that for a paycut? But I can say, that us evil "job creators" have managed to maintain our employees and provide them at least modest increases in pay over this time, Their families are our families and we struggle to keep them all where they need be. What pricks we are.


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

I would loved to revisit this thread in a year or two after all the provisions of the 
Affordable Health Care deal are in full swing. 

The costs that are going to be incurred are not even close to being revealed yet. When we all foot the bill for about 35 million uninsured low income Americans, we'll see how "affordable" this is. 

When we eliminate age-based pricing, which is coming next year as I understand it, we'll see how "affordable" it is for those in their 20's and 30's as their rates nearly double in response to the removal of age bracketing.


How about when you only pay a small "fine" if you go without insurance, but you're still guaranteed to have a policy issued no matter what AFTER you incur an injury or illness and decide to buy insurance after the fact. 

Yea, insurance is about to get real affordable. But as Mrs. Pepsi correctly pointed out, you have to pass it to find out what's in it...well, we're about to find out, big time.


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## sbreech (Jun 6, 2010)

bad luck said:


> I thought all the financial woes of this country were going to be solved by raising tax rates on everybody making more than 250K/yr. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I heard that before the election.
> 
> To answer the original question, we've always clipped coupons, did the gift cards/ grocery gas deal, buy stuff only when on sale, use credit card rewards, etc...so we're doing nothing different, always been frugal.


Talk about taxation without representation... There are so few "rich" people in the US that their votes to keep their tax rates at least equal to the middle class are pretty much unheard and overpowered by those that don't have and want what they have without working hard for it (Robin Hood process). If we want to reduce the deficit, one thing we can do is stop giving low income people more money back then they paid in. If you only pay $3000 in taxes, you should NEVER get a penny more than $3000 back, no matter how many offspring you spawn or how many pairs of workboots you say you used.
[/COLOR] 
I recently found a good way to save money, and I know it's been around for a while. It is called *Groupon*. I just spent $20 and got a $40 certificate for Mad River Outfitters. That's $20 in free money! We also use coupons in the packet - there is a deal now for a family of 4 to get a meal and shake at Steak n Shake for $19.99. City BBQ also has a family meal for $19.99. It is almost hard for us, a family of 3, to go to McDonalds for $20.00. Check out www.groupon.com


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## SaugerHunter91 (Dec 6, 2011)

I did the math the other day. Had I stayed at my old job where I worked under the table (tackle,bait and gun shop), I would only have to work 25 hours to get the same pay right I get for a full 40 hours now. At 20 years old I have time to not worry about a 401K or paying into social security at least for now. Tax tax tax tax....


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

sbreech said:


> Talk about taxation without representation... There are so few "rich" people in the US that their votes to keep their tax rates at least equal to the middle class are pretty much unheard and overpowered by those that don't have and want what they have without working hard for it (Robin Hood process). If we want to reduce the deficit, one thing we can do is stop giving low income people more money back then they paid in. If you only pay $3000 in taxes, you should NEVER get a penny more than $3000 back, no matter how many offspring you spawn or how many pairs of workboots you say you used.
> [/COLOR]
> I recently found a good way to save money, and I know it's been around for a while. It is called *Groupon*. I just spent $20 and got a $40 certificate for Mad River Outfitters. That's $20 in free money! We also use coupons in the packet - there is a deal now for a family of 4 to get a meal and shake at Steak n Shake for $19.99. City BBQ also has a family meal for $19.99. It is almost hard for us, a family of 3, to go to McDonalds for $20.00. Check out www.groupon.com




I don't want to lump everyone that draws social security and doesn't have much or any income in the same boat as someone with 5 kids and unable to even take care of themselves. Theres a difference. The system is an absolutely necessity to some, and just a free meal ticket to others. There are definite abuses there.

And thats fine, but before we start just pointing fingers, we have to understand how we got to where we are at and where we'll probably end up. Its only going to get worse with the baby boomers getting ready to sunset. Legalize the illegals in my opinion. Get them paying in. We can't possibly think we can send them all back and they already have access to many of the advantages anyhow since our hospitals don't turn people away.. But someone has to and is currently paying for it(me and you.)



> Government transfers of income to households started to overtake personal taxes at the start of 2008, and the gap has been widening. In 2010, households received $2.3 trillion in income support from unemployment benefits, Social Security, disability insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, veterans&#8217; benefits, education assistance and other cash transfers of government funds to individuals. Also last year, households paid $2.2 trillion in income, payroll, and other taxes. The difference was $125 billion, equivalent to 1 percentage point of overall personal income and about three times the amount Republicans and Democrats agreed to cut from government spending through Sept. 30.


I've yet to see a proposition to radically change any of that. If anyone has seen such a thing, fill me in. I'm all ears. Our massive spending spree is all but over. The huge expenditures happened and here we are coming back from it all.


Yes, Groupon is pretty awesome. I've gotten quite a few deals through them the past couple years and a couple busts(just never used it).


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## Berliner (Feb 23, 2011)

If you legalize the illegals, they will be after every government hand out program they can get. This country is doomed.. The government even has a website to show them how to get all the free sh*t. 

http://www.welcometousa.gov/

http://www.welcometousa.gov/Government_benefits/default.htm


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Berliner said:


> If you legalize the illegals, they will be after every government hand out program they can get. This country is doomed.. The government even has a website to show them how to get all the free sh*t.
> 
> http://www.welcometousa.gov/
> 
> http://www.welcometousa.gov/Government_benefits/default.htm


I don't think we should assume all those folks that are here now and surviving on their own are going to all over night file for or even qualify for welfare. They already get health care now. We don't turn people away. I dunno. And we are paying for it already. Call it a tax, call it contributing I don't care. I think they owe us SOMETHING. Can't have people dying in the streets, can't have people with a free ride on the backs of others. There's a definite balance. I don't think we've hit it but I also don't think we can pretend any longer the current system was working any better. Its kind of a mess yes?


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

PapawSmith said:


> The new health care act is NOT a means of affordable healthcare but instead a HUGE government boondoggle that has already cost money and jobs.


Source please?


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

This one has gotten too far off course. The OP ask a pretty straight forward question and hopefully he got his answer somewhere along the way.


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