# Heavy Cover topwater advice



## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

I have been fishing a lake regularly (for me) and at first was only able to get 4-6 bites over a 8 hour period. I found a topwater bait (Rage Shad) that increased it to 15-30. This is a highly pressured public lake with big (but few) Bass and big Pike. I have lots of questions as topwater bassin is new to me. I am burning the bait over very heavy cover in 1-3 ft of water and shallower sometimes. Lots of lily pads and grass, water is very muddy. My current setup is spinning rod with 10lbs braid. I have also recently switched to using a dark steel leader as I was sick of losing a dollar plastic and dollar gamakatsu 4/0 every pike that hits. I am after bass, but the method I am using makes the leader not that big a deal, half is out of the water anyway and I think they are reacting so I dont think the leader hurts me, an it doesnt affect the bait. Two days last week I go 14/30 and 4/13 hookups to blowups. This is frustrating. I understand sometimes a bass will just plain miss it but even when I hook up if they make it back to the pads or grass I am done. I lose so many fish and always the bigger ones. Questions are:

1. Is using braid hurting me when the fish get in the pads because no stretch? They rip it out easier? I like the braid for the pads other than this possible downfall?

2. Is there a way or method to landing more fish when they get wrapped in weeds?

3. Has anyone tried dragging a trailer weedless trailer hook on topwater or frog?

4. I have never got a bass to strike twice. Any secrets? I have re-thrown the bait. Tossed in a senko, etc. Never a second strike.

5. Anything other than a leader I can use to defend against the toothy fish?

6. Any general topwater or lily pad fishing advice!

Thanks for your help.

Bassthumb


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## chopper (May 15, 2004)

I fish pads alot. I use 30lb braid on a heavy rod. I really like using toads. You do lose a few to missed hits but who cares, it fun. I also use 8lb braid in pads with senko style baits. Someone needs to tell me how a bass can come unhooked so easy if they rap a pad. Does anyone know? As for the steel leader, it must go. It hurts more than it helps. Does anyone else have any pad advise?


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

My advice is get some heavier equipment. Get some heavier braid and fish a 7' MH or H action rod. This will help you horse the fish out of the cover better because you can lean on them more. As far as hookup ratio, that is just how it goes with topwater baits.

The key to getting a second bite after a miss is to get another bait in there FAST. After a second or two, it is usually a wash, but a good place to maybe come back to later in the day as you know the fish is in the area.


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks for the advice guys. I do think the braid lets them rip it out of their mouths when they wrap a pad. Might try releasing the bail and giving them the line if they wrap up next time. I lose 90% of the fish that wrap a pad. Horseing the fish out is tough for me because I am in a kayak, leverage ends up being me just pulling myself in the yak.

Bassthumb.


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## Tokugawa (Apr 29, 2008)

Yeah...hate to say it...that equipment is way too small. Please describe your spinning rod. Sounds like you are bringing a knife to a gun fight. The bigger bass will abuse a light spinning setup in weeds. I learned this from experience. The reason they get you wrapped is that the rod does not have the ooomph to turn the head toward you immediately. If they get sideways in weeds...good luck...

To fish heavy cover, I like a 7'2" H rod with a fast tip, and use #30 or #50 braid. The braid will typically cut the pads...unless your rod is too light to get enough pressure and leverage. The leader is not needed. As far as missing strikes, sometimes a strike won't result in a hooked fish...it happens.

The kayak seems to be a limiting factor...but it sure sounds like a fun way to fish!!

HTH!!


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

Tokugowa, thats not your name because of Civilization is it? Love that game play all the time. Anyway my setup is 7ft G Loomis IMX Med-Hev with Shimano Symetra spin reel. I wouldnt have thought to go all the way to 30lbs braid but it seems like people fish that heavy in pads. The Yak is great, beach myself in some pads no bass boat can get to and cast 360 degrees. Move 100 ft repeat. Awesome. Will be going out next couple days.....post pics of results, Thanks!


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

Also would a heavy mono or flourocarbon leader make an sense for a little more stretch in the pads but heavy enough not to bust when horseing the fish in?


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## Tokugawa (Apr 29, 2008)

Bassthumb - I love Civ!!! But, the name it is more about my interest in feudal Japan.

Hmmm...the rod should be OK, although I tend to go heavier. Maybe I suffer from overkill?

A heavy (20#) leader might help. For topwater, I'd use mono. FC is denser and sinks more, but that is just my preference. Given the conditions, I think you are doing as good as anyone could. Good luck!!


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## idontknow316 (Mar 21, 2008)

> Yeah...hate to say it...that equipment is way too small


.....I won't even say it lol


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

If your throwing in that heavy of cover I would definitley boost up the braid...definitley 30lb at least....you might also want to throw a slower topwater for less misses....scum frog or spro frog slowly worked.....if your not getting much strikes on those then switch to rage tails frog....usually works well with a 3/0 hook.....other than that you should be alright....with the 30lb braid you can horse the fish around more....yea you will pull the kayak in towards the fish but that might also help you pull em out of the pads! best of luck


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## Rybo (Jul 23, 2009)

Two thoughts.

1 - You could use heavier # swivels/snaps, or none at all. You may already be doing this, but it's worth mentioning. I'm using berkley 20-30# swivels now, and have started straightening more hooks than losing lures. It only makes sense to match your # strengths between. terminal tackle and line.

2 - I do miss a lot of fish using braid with topwater. I probably land 10% of hits, and admittedly that is also my fault. To help though, set your drag low, and hesitate a 1/4-1/2 second before setting the hook. If your reaction times are too quick, (mine always were, blessed with a hair trigger i guess?), you'll pull it before the fish has a moment to close their mouth. On the other hand, a millisecond too long, and they'll spit it. Very fine line. I also pull them in hooked in all kinds of crazy ways, especially smallmouth. Buggers are so pissed to hit the bait they can't be bothered to line it up.

Your set up sounds nice! I recently started throwing with a 6.5' St Croix Medium Fast with a Shimano Sonora. 

Enjoy!


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

Two good fish last time out. I think they were both 5+lbs. My hatch is 15inches across in the pics. No weights, what do you think? The hog I guessed at 19-20 inch.


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## Rybo (Jul 23, 2009)

Great looking bass there Bassthumb. (great name too.)
I came here to the forums today because I happened across a video
on the very subject you had brought up, and it had some insight I thought
worthy of posting here. Hope it can help the both of us: 




How long have you been fishing from the kayak?


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## spfldbassguy (Mar 23, 2009)

Rybo said:


> Two thoughts.
> 
> 
> 2 - I do miss a lot of fish using braid with topwater. I probably land 10% of hits, and admittedly that is also my fault. To help though, set your drag low, and hesitate a 1/4-1/2 second before setting the hook. If your reaction times are too quick, (mine always were, blessed with a hair trigger i guess?), you'll pull it before the fish has a moment to close their mouth. On the other hand, a millisecond too long, and they'll spit it. Very fine line. I also pull them in hooked in all kinds of crazy ways, especially smallmouth. Buggers are so pissed to hit the bait they can't be bothered to line it up!


if you only land 10% of you topwater strikes you might need to slow down a lil bit.what ya missin' them on?


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## Rybo (Jul 23, 2009)

Large buzzbait. The size is affecting how the smallies can grab it. I have no problems landing the bigger smallmouth, but the smaller ones just bat it around. I'm normally fishing for size first, then numbers. Not as many misses with largemouth. I have gotten better with it. Slowing down is a good call, and I do that occasionally, but it seems the hits come more often at a moderate pace. Maybe I'll try some trailers.


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## LimaRanger488VS (Jan 16, 2008)

You need a minimum 7' rod, MH, maybe even try throwing frogs on a flipping stick that is 7'6" H. My favorite for throwing the buzz style frogs is the Diawa S series flipping stick. Use 65lb Power Pro tied directly to the lure. When the fish hits you do NOT want to set the hook right away. Rather reel down tight fast so you feel the fish, then swing back like hell and give them all you've got! The key is to get the balance between waiting just enough so the fish can get the lure in their mouth and close their mouth, but not too long that they are buried down underneath everything.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

Rybo said:


> 2 - I do miss a lot of fish using braid with topwater. I probably land 10% of hits, and admittedly that is also my fault. To help though, set your drag low, and hesitate a 1/4-1/2 second before setting the hook. If your reaction times are too quick, (mine always were, blessed with a hair trigger i guess?), you'll pull it before the fish has a moment to close their mouth. On the other hand, a millisecond too long, and they'll spit it. Very fine line. I also pull them in hooked in all kinds of crazy ways, especially smallmouth. Buggers are so pissed to hit the bait they can't be bothered to line it up.



Like Lima Ranger said, don't hesitate, reel down until you feel the fish. Never set the hook based on sight, a certain time after the strike, etc. wait to feel it. If it helps, never look at your buzzbait and wear hearing protection and then you would only know you have a bite when you feel it.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Bassthumb said:


> Questions are:
> 
> 1. Is using braid hurting me when the fish get in the pads because no stretch? They rip it out easier? I like the braid for the pads other than this possible downfall?
> 
> ...


1. Braid should not be causing a problem. In my experience using braided line, I prefer the heavy braid. I can usually get away with heavy line in thick cover, and I need it to pull fish out sometimes. If the water is muddy and you're getting strikes, I don't think the line is hurting you.

2. When they get wrapped, I try to keep pressure on the fish. With heavy line, a lot of times you can pull fish free. With tough pads, I'm not sure, don't have a lot of experience in lilly pads. I have gone after fish, too. The big bass I posted in the Fly Fishing forum yesterday I had to go get. It was wrapped in weeds on light line.

3. You can drag a trailer hook, but there goes your weedless lure unless you're towing some sort of weedless trailer. The biggest issue I have with missing fish on Rage Tail topwaters is small fish that have appetites bigger than their mouths. When they rip the tail off, that really torques me up!

4. My biggest topwater bass this year I caught after a friend missed the same fish (we think) on a buzzbait. I waited a few minutes, casted out with a Rage Tail toad, and the fish boiled on the bait without striking. Next cast, had her on the same bait. Sometimes a more subtle lure works, sometimes nothing does, that's fishing!

5. Honestly, no experience with pike/musky type fish. The toothy fish I have dealt with are walleyes, sauger, and saugeyes, and they don't cut line.

6. General advice, if bites are not coming fast and consistently, I like to downsize the bait. A fish that might ignore a 1/2oz buzzbait might slam an 1/8oz buzzbait, especially on more pressured water. You can also change up your retrieve slightly, change colors, I keep changing until I find something that works most of the time. And one other tidbit, the Rage Tail Toad is my favorite big bass topwater bait. I don't think I have caught any bass under 15-16" on that bait, and lots of 3+ pounders. Small bass seem to fool with Rage Tail shads more than the toads, in my experience.


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## Danshady (Dec 14, 2006)

i am not fond of the rage tail shad, it makes alot of disturbance which i like but the huge tail on the back decreases your hookup chances. i stay with buzz frogs and buzz baits. also get the senko back in the same exact spot when a fish boils fast. aslo like everyone else has been saying, need to upgrade to a bigger rod, and surprisingly no one mentioned using a baitcasting reel. its got way more power than the spinning reel and when spooled with some heavy action braid, you can pull and horse all you want and let the line and rod and reel do its job, you hook those fish you have to keep them up as best as you can, set the hook hard and keep your rod up high afterwards, pull and reel hard and trust your line!!!!! also i agree get rid of the leader, for anything, not just topwater, we catch musky at alum all the time on cranks, worms, tubes, topwater, and we usually only break off about 2-3 out of 10, so we land 75-80% of them with no leader.


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## Rybo (Jul 23, 2009)

I am planning to switch to a MH 7' rod with a baitcaster for my fish searching. Too often ifjnd myself needing another 10' to get past the sweet spot. Since I'm normally fishing topwater, I'm setting this pole up for it, then I'll use my 6.5' M St.Croix with shimano spinning reel for finessing soft plastics.
I agree, a large part of the problem is fish with eyes bigger than their mouths.


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## teamelite2004 (Jan 6, 2009)

i don't know much about the different lines to use when fishing topwater and i very rarely fish in the pads or thick stuff but i often fish around them with poppers and such on top and do great with bass - spring summer fall ... this is going to sound crazy but it helped -- when i first started fishing topwaters we wouldnt go out until midnight and stay till the sun comes up and on a night with no moon it gets pretty dark out there ... the darker it was the more hits and hookups we got. on nights with a bright moon we would get 1/4 of the hits and 1/4 of those would hookup ... so i asked the old timer i was with what was causing this and he said that when there is a little light from the moon it casts a shadow from underneath so the fish are striking at the shadow of the lure instead of the actual lure itself and im wondering if this some how is true and if so could be what is happening here in a different way ... maybe at certain time the sun is casting a shadow and the fish are missing the bait or hitting the backend. also my first 3 or 4 times out because we couldnt see much and could only hear the fish coming up to get the lures the natural reaction is to jerk when you here that and i would miss fish after fish. the old timer gave some ear plugs so i couldnt hear the strike and i didnt miss a fish after that and got conditioned to wait to feel the weight of the fish before i jerked. also i have noticed at night def but not sure about in the day ... if i get a strike and they miss i continue my retrieve without missing a beat and ive had bass follow all the way up to the boat missing 6 or 7 times before grabbing it. ive had them come up with so much force that it literally throws my lure 3ft and i continue my retrieve from there. i dont know if any of this helps but just some stuff i encountered fishing topwaters.


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## Rybo (Jul 23, 2009)

That's good insight teamelite. I think you've had some unique experiences (12am-8am fishing) that can provide some insight to those of us not nuts enough to do so (ha!). I'll have to do this some night. For a fishing focus weekend, it makes sense to get sleep right after work, then get up around sunrise and hit the water until a few hours after sunrise.
Thanks again.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Danshady said:


> *i am not fond of the rage tail shad, it makes alot of disturbance which i like but the huge tail on the back decreases your hookup chances*. i stay with buzz frogs and buzz baits. also get the senko back in the same exact spot when a fish boils fast. aslo like everyone else has been saying, need to upgrade to a bigger rod, and surprisingly no one mentioned using a baitcasting reel. its got way more power than the spinning reel and when spooled with some heavy action braid, you can pull and horse all you want and let the line and rod and reel do its job, you hook those fish you have to keep them up as best as you can, set the hook hard and keep your rod up high afterwards, pull and reel hard and trust your line!!!!! also i agree get rid of the leader, for anything, not just topwater, we catch musky at alum all the time on cranks, worms, tubes, topwater, and we usually only break off about 2-3 out of 10, so we land 75-80% of them with no leader.


If rigged correctly, I don't think the tail has any negative effect. I PhotoChopped an image together real fast to illustrate my point. If you Texas rig with a wide gap hook, with the hook point protruding the bait where or near where the imposed hook is in this photo, or the upper yellow dot, the tail can not interfere at all. If you rig the hook in the area of the lower yellow dot, I guess it could potentially interfere, but you also have to remember an important thing: when the bait is moving, the tail is extended out behind the bait, and should be nowhere near the hook.










My first guess on your lower hook-up percentages would be a hook that is too small for the big, bulky bait or a hook with a narrow gap. With bigger (I think they are 3/0 or 4/0) wide gap hooks I have no issues with hook-up on any fish that gets the bait in its mouth.


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## FISHIN216 (Mar 18, 2009)

teamelite2004 said:


> i don't know much about the different lines to use when fishing topwater and i very rarely fish in the pads or thick stuff but i often fish around them with poppers and such on top and do great with bass - spring summer fall ... This is going to sound crazy but it helped -- when i first started fishing topwaters we wouldnt go out until midnight and stay till the sun comes up and on a night with no moon it gets pretty dark out there ... The darker it was the more hits and hookups we got. On nights with a bright moon we would get 1/4 of the hits and 1/4 of those would hookup ... So i asked the old timer i was with what was causing this and he said that when there is a little light from the moon it casts a shadow from underneath so the fish are striking at the shadow of the lure instead of the actual lure itself and im wondering if this some how is true and if so could be what is happening here in a different way ... Maybe at certain time the sun is casting a shadow and the fish are missing the bait or hitting the backend. Also my first 3 or 4 times out because we couldnt see much and could only hear the fish coming up to get the lures the natural reaction is to jerk when you here that and i would miss fish after fish. The old timer gave some ear plugs so i couldnt hear the strike and i didnt miss a fish after that and got conditioned to wait to feel the weight of the fish before i jerked. Also i have noticed at night def but not sure about in the day ... If i get a strike and they miss i continue my retrieve without missing a beat and ive had bass follow all the way up to the boat missing 6 or 7 times before grabbing it. Ive had them come up with so much force that it literally throws my lure 3ft and i continue my retrieve from there. I dont know if any of this helps but just some stuff i encountered fishing topwaters.


you are wild!


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