# Why is buckshot not allowed for deerhunting?



## jonnythfisherteen2

This is something that has been bothering me for awhile now. If slugs, which if im correct, carry their energy further than shot, than what exactly prevents hunters from using buckshot for deer hunting?


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## Misdirection

A very large fine if you get caught...


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## Buckeyeguyty93

The fact that it wouldnt kill the deer?


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## jonnythfisherteen2

Um. No. What I meant was, why isnt it allowed? I see in the regulations that slug and one (1) ball can be used but not multiple projectiles.


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## Misdirection

Because you stand a better chance of wounding a deer than killing it.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

Misdirection said:


> Because you stand a better chance of wounding a deer than killing it.


Even within a resonable distance? Like say, under 50 or so. I was looking at fed premium and their flitecontrol wads that they use and the pattern seems pretty tight even at range.


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## Misdirection

I'm only speculating as to why it isn't legal...but I think I'm in the ballpark.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

Misdirection said:


> I'm only speculating as to why it isn't legal...but I think I'm in the ballpark.


Ehh... you may be. That and the spreading shot may be more of a problem during deer drives i suppose.


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## Buckeyeguyty93

Its not a maybe lol thats exactly the reason if your shooting it they want you killing it painlessly as possible.


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## ezbite

I got an ammo box full of buckshot years ago in a trade, 00 buckshot I think, I'd have to look. I know there are 9 pellets in each shell and we've shot them out of every size choke and several shotguns at 70-100 yards. From what I remember the normal was 1-2 pellets hitting the target and I don't mean the center of the target either, usually around the edges. I'd say the reason we can't use it for deer in Ohio is because you'd have to be very lucky to hit a deer and kill it. Now inside 20 yards, that's a different story.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

ezbite said:


> I got an ammo box full of buckshot years ago in a trade, 00 buckshot I think, I'd have to look. I know there are 9 pellets in each shell and we've shot them out of every size choke and several shotguns at 70-100 yards. From what I remember the normal was 1-2 pellets hitting the target and I don't mean the center of the target either, usually around the edges. I'd say the reason we can't use it for deer in Ohio is because you'd have to be very lucky to hit a deer and kill it. Now inside 20 yards, that's a different story.


Thats more what I was thinking. Close in, not anything over like 50. The federal loads seem sot be effective out to atleast 50. If I had a choice, id keep it under 50.


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## Pooch

Buckshot most definately will kill deer, and will do so with efficiency. Multiple states do allow. S.carolina being one of them. Dont get caught up in the hype thinking its inferior ammo. Some loads only have 4 pellets that will group tight enough within 40 yards to do some serious damage to the vitals. Seen it first hand.


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## rutnut245

I've used 3.5" 00 buck in Al.and it is devastating under 50 yards, knocks them right off their feet. Most people use it in the thick stuff or when using dogs. I believe there are 18 pellets in a Federal premium 3.5".


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## bkr43050

I imagine the buckshot is lethal from ranges inside 30-40 yards but hunters will never limit their range to just that. Yeah I am sure there will be someone come on here and say that they would and maybe so, maybe not. But for every one hunter that has that self control there are probably a dozen who do not. It is just simply not an effective weapon for deer hunting and I would hope that the ODNR never considers it as an option. You can kill a deer with a perfectly placed shot from a .22LR from close range as well. The authorities have to draw the line somewhere on what is ethical and safe. I am happy with where the line that is drawn.


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## sherman51

there is just to many people that would take longer shots at a herd of deer and with a group of deer at say 70 yrds there would just be to many wounded deer. buckshot was designed to be used in very heavy cover like in Alabama where most shots are 30 or 40 yrds max. places like Indiana and ohio is just to open for buckshot to be practical. i'll take my muzzle loader any day over buckshot.
sherman


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## FISNFOOL

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> Um. No. What I meant was, why isnt it allowed? I see in the regulations that slug and one (1) ball can be used but not multiple projectiles.


That is a slug OR one ball.

Shotgun: 10 gauge or smaller shotgun using one ball or one rifled slug per barrel
(rifled shotgun barrels are permitted when using shotgun slug ammunition) Shotguns cannot be capable of holding more than three shells.

I think that is what you meant, but as written it may have confused those that have heard of buck n ball.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

Durrr. Lol. Thanks for catching that.


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## Fishingisfun

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> Um. No. What I meant was, why isnt it allowed? I see in the regulations that slug and one (1) ball can be used but not multiple projectiles.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Johnny I have questioned the same thing about 00 buck shot use in Ohio. I'm guessing the one slug in the shell was what modern Ohio deer hunting began with and we were stuck with that formula for a long time. My Dad went on the first or nearly the first Ohio deer gun season. He said he hunted every legal day and saw the grand total of one deer running over a far hilltop the next ridge over. Few deer around then if rifles were legal we would not have the herd we have now. Buck shot would had meant more deer down then than the old pumpkin ball loads, in shotguns of yesteryear Ohio deer hunting. Back then it was considered to be cheating down south killing deer with buckshot. Too easy to kill deer. Looked down upon in the north. I'm a lifetime Ohio resident and I had that drilled into my hunting attitudes.
> I see in the new hunting regulations 38 specials are legal cartridges now for deer. I had read once the double 00 buck round is equal to the energy of. 38 special round for every pellet in the load. If I remember right it is based on velocity and weight being similar. So I'm thinking with each shot shell throwing multiple rounds equal to the 38 special why is it not legal? It should transfer more energy with multiple hits than a single 38 special round can. We all need to remember to limit our shooting range for lower energy rounds and avoid crippling shots. I feel experience of other states with legal 00 buck taking deer out weighs our lack of experience using buck shot for deer. If SC hunters can take deer at 45 yards with 00 buck we can do the same here. If 00 buck round is so inefficient why does the military and LE use it so often? Old attitudes may need to be looked at and see if they are based in fact not tradition. Ohio deer hunting has been through a lot of changes I never saw coming.


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## Lundy

The old "pumpkin ball" was and is more effective at killing deer at distance

Southern states that permit the use of buckshot have different hunting terrain and shot opportunities than is typical in Ohio 

Not many people would or will hunt deer with a 38 special

Most southern states deer are the size of puppy dogs

Many southern states want many more deer killed than are harvested today. Long seasons and very liberal limits

Way too many Ohio hunters do not know the effective limits of the weapons the choose to hunt with, gun or bow


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## Fishingisfun

Lundy, I agree with you on the distance of shots. I just felt their is a long held inferiority of the potential of buckshot. I supported the inclusion of straight wall cartridges for deer hunting in Ohio. If it was legal in pistol I felt the increased accuracy of the longer barrel would be good. I'm just surprised the the calibers included in the now permitted list. I know most deer hunters are interested in the ability to make longer range shots and would not be interested in buckshot. It seems most years there is something new that will increase effective range of deer weapons in Ohio. I'm OK with new the technology, improvements are good if it makes surer kills in the field. I'm guessing none of the straight wall cartridges will give the energy of the deer slug guns except maybe the old bison hunter rounds. That is likely why some Alaskan guides use 12 gauge shotguns for backup on bear hunts I guess. The 38 special rounds will likely come from the cowboy action shooter lever guns that are already in gun cabinets of Ohio hunters and the non residents that will come to our state to hunt now that round is legal for deer. I may have missed it in the regulations but I think 38 special may be OK in pistols also. That may bring out the old police special with fixed sights that grand dad handed can be used for a deer hunt. It just seems the round self defense experts claim is not enough is now a hunting round. Many shotgun deer are taken at short range for those still using smooth bore guns. I am a short range hunter and have not invested in long range weapons. I accept that limitation. I hunt an area when the longest shot is 25 yards in thick cover. Over grown creek bottom where deer move to to escape pressure. I have passed on any shot over 45 yards in the open. I will not campaign at the game hearings for buckshot but I feel it is on the same level of the 38 special round that is now legal to hunt with. The 38 will be out there and in the excitement or frustration of the hunt shots will be taken too far. They will kill deer but as someone stated so will the 22. I'm hoping the hunters are as wise about their hunting implement as you and I are wishing. Buck shot at short range would IMHO allow more chance of a ball finding vitals likely more than one.


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## Lundy

Fishingisfun.\,

The points you make are all valid and I don't disagree with most of what you say.

I really think that the primary difference would come about by a simple numbers analysis.

Very few hunters will be hunting with a handgun or a cowboy lever action in 38 special. Those that do, as a general statement, will probably be pretty familiar with their weapon and it's limitations.

However, if buckshot was legal and some percentage of the masses (400,000- 500,000) of hunters that hunt with shotguns during the Ohio gun season decided to try it there could be 50,000, 100,000, more? trying buckshot with little to know idea of how ineffective at range buckshot is. They have all seen it in the movies blow down block walls and take out three guys hiding behind the wall 

You know and I know that there are a lot of hunters that pick up their shotgun for the gun week that don't practice, buy slugs the day before season, and then go hunting. If these same guys go with buckshot it could be ugly.

With one slug hopefully they either kill the deer or miss completely. I think with the multiple projectiles there would be a lot more wounded and not recovered deer.

I personally have nothing against buckshot for hunting deer by someone that knows how to use it, I would however be against it's use by most casual deer hunters. There is no way to educate, so they only option is to limit opportunity for problems

I drove back from Fl today and early today before daylight I saw a bunch of Fl and AL whitetails including some very impressive bucks. However they weighed about 80-100 lbs and you could probably kill them with a pellet gun or even a 38 special


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## bdawg

I would use buckshot if it's allowed. Most of my shots are with open sights in the 30yd range. Most areas I hunt have briars and grapevines. I've put holes in couple of grapevines that were hanging across the deer's body. Buckshot would have allowed at least a couple of those pellets to just miss the vine and hit the deer. 

After the first day of the season, especially on public land, most deer are deep in the brush and you have to set up in there to get a shot.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

Well, how about that topic of range effectiveness is covered in hunter ed? I believe it was when I went to hunter ed years ago. But only with bows. 
Not saying everyone is going to pay attention to it, as I saw quite a few people not really paying much attention to the instructor, and not bothering to look at cartriges or anything that was passed around. But theres atleast some people that are sensible.


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## bkr43050

This state has so many options open to hunters. Why the need for another one? Shotguns, muzzleloaders, handguns, longbows, crossbows, now straight wall cartridges. Why do we really need more?

I have had shotgun shot rain down on me on a couple of occasions. I can't say that I would be too excited to have any buckshot doing the same. Sure training may lead a few down the right path of practice but what about the other hundreds of guys who already have a shotgun who would love the idea of trapshooting for deer?  I know the knowledgeable hunter would not view it in that sense but I know full well it would happen somewhere.


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## Lundy

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> . But theres atleast some people that are sensible.


Not enough

I also think bow hunting needs some major scrunity from the ODNR also going forward. 2013 is the first time in history that the archery kill exceeded the week long gun harvest. There are now far more wounded and lost deer with a bow than with guns and it will continue to grow.


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## bobk

Lundy said:


> There are now far more wounded and lost deer with a bow than with guns and it will continue to grow.


What's your reasoning for this comment? I would think the rappid fire gun nuts still wound more deer. Shooting at running deer, deer too far away and so on.


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## Lundy

bobk said:


> What's your reasoning for this comment? I would think the rappid fire gun nuts still wound more deer. Shooting at running deer, deer too far away and so on.


Just numbers, deer numbers killed with a bow, 4 month season, one shot, no follow-up shots possible, lack of tracking knowledge when the deer doesn't fall in front of them and the reports I read on every Ohio hunting site every fall. Bunches and bunches and bunches of threads about hit and lost deer during the bow seasons. Compare these reports to the hit and lost deer threads during the gun season. If the cross section of users of internet hunting sites in Ohio is even remotely close to being representative of the hunter population in Ohio as a whole then it's not even close any more.

There is really no doubt in my mind about the wound to harvest ratio attributed to the weapon for the total harvest.


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## rutnut245

I've shot my share of deer using buckshot in Alabama and I can tell you it works great in certain conditions. The properties I hunt aren't much different than what you find in southern Ohio. Some guys use dogs and others push or slowly stalk through thick cover and shoot them when they jump them. I guarantee they have buckshot in their guns and they roll just like a rabbit when you hit them on the run.

I hunt about 30 miles north of Birmingham and the size difference between Ohio deer and the Al. deer isn't as great as people seem to think. I've seen some very nice bucks you would swear are northern deer.

The longest shot I've ever made was 70 yards at a standing doe when I was out calling coyotes. I was using 3.5" #4 buck in a Benelli SBE with extended full choke Rhino tube. It dropped right where it stood.


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## buckeyebowman

Lundy said:


> The old "pumpkin ball" was and is more effective at killing deer at distance
> 
> Southern states that permit the use of buckshot have different hunting terrain and shot opportunities than is typical in Ohio
> 
> Not many people would or will hunt deer with a 38 special
> 
> Most southern states deer are the size of puppy dogs
> 
> Many southern states want many more deer killed than are harvested today. Long seasons and very liberal limits
> 
> Way too many Ohio hunters do not know the effective limits of the weapons the choose to hunt with, gun or bow


Bingo! Lundy, the voice of reason yet again! Yes, southern deer are SMALL compared to northern whitetails. A few years ago I had the chance to go on a smallmouth fishing trip to Dale Hollow reservoir in northern Tennessee. This was in late January, early February. Thus, we had the opportunity to stop in a few bait, tackle, hunting stores. On every bulletin board were literally hundreds of pics of people sitting tall and posing proud over 70 to 75 pound deer! I wouldn't look at one of them twice! Don't know what the current regs are, but in years past Georgia used to allow you A DEER A DAY with a maximum of 5 or 6 bucks! Kind of like stunted bluegill over populating a pond. 



Lundy said:


> Not enough
> I also think bow hunting needs some major scrunity from the ODNR also going forward. 2013 is the first time in history that the archery kill exceeded the week long gun harvest. There are now far more wounded and lost deer with a bow than with guns and it will continue to grow.


Again, right on! I am primarily a bow hunter, and I am in complete agreement. My absolute maximum is 40 yards, I'm OK at 30, but I live at 20 yards! I've seen posts on bow hunting forums where guys routinely try 70, 80, 90, even 100 yard shots! Their justification? Well, they can pump them into a target at 100, why not a deer? My response is always the same, because the target can't move and deer can! Their usual reaction to a lost deer is, "Oh well, no big deal. I'll just go sit in the stand tomorrow!" These people are slob hunters! 

I know a guy who used to work at the local Gander Mtn. He was not just some schlub off the street. He knew bows, arrows and archery hunting! He had a guy come in wondering why he couldn't recover any of the deer he was shooting. Said he was arrowing some "really nice bucks", but there was very little blood trail, and he couldn't find one of them! My buddy asked him what kind of broadhead he was using. The guy showed him one of his "hunting" arrows, and it was tipped with a field point. That's right folks, the guy was HUNTING DEER WITH A FIELD POINT!!! My friend had to go get a supervisor to finish with the guy, because he was about ready to deck him! 

I know a lot of bow hunters who like to launch into a "superiority dance" over our method of hunting, but believe me. There are just as many slobs and ignorant hunter in our ranks as there are in any other!


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## Fishingisfun

A little off track of the buckshot thread going into bow hunting. I'm not sure what your blaming archery hunting for? Having Bow hunted 46 years I have observed a few trends and predicted game ending events that never came about. Technology has changed the sport of archery but the so called "game changers" in advanced equipment has not IMHO ruined hunting. Most archery hunters see these advances as the normal way of hunting. Pre sharpened broad heads, wheeled bows with ever increasing let off, sights with magnification and releases. Crossbows made life easier once it was sighted in the use was a good deal like a gun but with limited range. Big box stores saw the profit being made and began selling archery equipment without having to know the sport. Traditional archery is back to basics but many still use high tech additions. It used to be you needed to find an archery shop that was likely ran by Bowhunters that alway seemed to be able to make helpful suggestions and impart some useful knowledge. Almost every purchase would end with the question do you need some sharp broads heads? People would hang out and share useful knowledge for the new hunters. I hope the field point hunter at GM got the good advice he needed. What you seem to be referring to is archery hunters that do not understand the equipment, and the effective limitations that you do. The same can be said of firearms advancements and additional weapon inclusions for deer hunting. What ever legal implement, weapon in the current hunting regulations will be taken to the field this season with good and bad results. Invest some time showing a newbie how to get it done right. You don't have to take them with you into your deer woods to hunt your spot just let them hear what works and what does not for you. Go with them to their hunting spot and show them how to locate deer and where a good stand location would be. Your observed success is a good example and a much better salesman of good choices than the display at Wally World. If the archery deer kill exceeded the gun kill it is likely the two and three season deer hunters making the increase in bow kills. Technology has made it easier to archery hunt. Some former and current gun hunters went to archery to increase their time afield, take advantage of the rut, avoid the crowds, and the risk of being in the woods during gun deer season. I remember several years where deer gun season fell during some of the worst weather of the late fall and the resulting harvest would be low. Seemed that always happened during the late muzzle loading season back them. 
We see less deer each year after the increased allowed harvests began. Ohio's bigger deer are a result of living to maturity. With the quest to fill all of a persons available tags we will likely see the same small immature deer of our neighbor state Pennsylvania. 
I have to think that 00 buckshot would do the job on Ohio deer just fine if it were legal.


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## bkr43050

I don't think you are understanding what Lundy meant by his comments. The conversation was centered around whether buckshot was a viable option as far as effectiveness and range. The points were made that many may fail to understand those limitations if buckshot were legal. Lundy was stating that the archery hunting community has plenty who do not understand the limitations and best practices of their sport. I agree with the statement that there are most likely far more unrecovered dead deer from archery than gun. I think by sheer numbers of hunters and hours in the field there are more hits put on deer in archery. As we know a lot of things can go wrong if people tend to test the limits of range and such. I think you may have been saying some of the same as what he was alluding to with your reference to the lack of guidance and mentoring. Perhaps the ODNR could introduce some more focus on that aspect.

One thing that gun season has going for it as far as recovering those badly hit deer is that there are a lot of guys in the field moving the deer and walking up on downed deer to find them before the coyotes do.


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## Lundy

Fishingisfun said:


> I'm not sure what your blaming archery hunting for? Having Bow hunted 46 years *I have observed a few trends and predicted game ending events that never came about*. Technology has changed the sport of archery but the so called "game changers" in advanced equipment has not IMHO ruined hunting.


I was not and am not BLAMING archery for anything, just stating the data as it exists today.

You must have been a member of the anti crossbow group way back when.


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## Fishingisfun

Laughing about the anti crossbow comment. Many myths about crossbows made it hated. Myth said crossbows shot like a rifle for one hundred yards, were able to shoot though a concrete blocks. A super weapon that needed to be banned. There will be no deer left if it was a legal to hunt deer with. Knowledge and experience with crossbows changed the perception for most of us back then. You could not convince everyone with the ingrained knowledge they may be wrong. Back then they would turn on you for owning a crossbow though they had no direct first person experience. I bought one to take Dad hunting and found out it was not anything like what the antis said it was. I will guess crossbow hunters make up the larger portion of the archery season two season hunters.


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## Lundy

I think you mean Crossguns

I was around in the very beginning of all of that debate. I was the President of the largest OBA affiliated bowhunting club in Ohio. We had many a spirited conversation in the day.

I clearly remember the first year when crossbows were allowed to used but only during the primitive weapons season.

The good ole days that followed were filled with a lot of angst about crossbows, mechanical releases, mechanical broadheads, etc, etc


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## Fishingisfun

You have me laughing again with the "cross gun" comment had forgotten that name being used back then. Belonged to the local 100 percent OBA club for awhile switched when they relocated. I switched to a closer club it lost its club ground.


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## Lundy

Fishingisfun said:


> You have me laughing again with the "cross gun" comment had forgotten that name being used back then. Belonged to the local 100 percent OBA club for awhile switched when they relocated. I switched to a closer club it lost its club ground.


We probably know each other, same 100% OBA affiliated bowhunting club.

I was very active, especially after the move, was very involved in the negotiating with the land owner for the purchase as I was the current president at the time. I am a life time member and haven't been on the grounds in 15 years


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## Mad-Eye Moody

Lundy said:


> The old "pumpkin ball" was and is more effective at killing deer at distance
> 
> Southern states that permit the use of buckshot have different hunting terrain and shot opportunities than is typical in Ohio
> 
> Not many people would or will hunt deer with a 38 special
> 
> Most southern states deer are the size of puppy dogs
> 
> Many southern states want many more deer killed than are harvested today. Long seasons and very liberal limits
> 
> Way too many Ohio hunters do not know the effective limits of the weapons the choose to hunt with, gun or bow


Thanks for saving me the time of writing all of this Lundy.


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## buckeyebowman

Lundy said:


> I was not and am not BLAMING archery for anything, just stating the data as it exists today.
> 
> You must have been a member of the anti crossbow group way back when.


And neither was I. It's my preferred method of deer hunting. That's like blaming cars for car crashes. It's usually the "loose nut" behind the wheel (or the bow, or the gun) who's responsible.


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## jarhead70usmc

Rut nut WHY IN THE WORLD would you shoot 00 - 000 - or heavier buck shot into brush that you cannot see through what are you hunting for to do that numan or anything pardon my expression but if you cannot see it then why shoot at it


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## rutnut245

jarhead70usmc said:


> Rut nut WHY IN THE WORLD would you shoot 00 - 000 - or heavier buck shot into brush that you cannot see through what are you hunting for to do that numan or anything pardon my expression but if you cannot see it then why shoot at it


Where did that come from? I didn't say ANYTHING about shooting blindly into the brush. No one I know or hunt with shoots at ANYTHING without knowing whats down range.I've never personally lost a deer shot with buckshot, I'm sure it happens. Obviously you haven't used it in a deer hunting situation. Do you think it's more safe to fling slugs when still hunting or shooting at running deer? That's when it's used, thus the name buckshot. You do use shot when shooting running rabbits don't you? If it was as dangerous or unethical as some believe it would also be illegal in those backwards thinking, ******* southern States.Btw, that's sarcasm.


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## jarhead70usmc

Some guys use dogs and others push or slowly stalk through thick cover and shoot them when they jump them. I guarantee they have buckshot in their guns and they roll just like a rabbit when you hit them on the run. right off your posting unless I am misreading


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## rutnut245

I didn't say you can't see through it. I've jumped many deer inside 20 yards. They're coming out of their beds. Why would you shoot blindly ? It's just like rabbit hunting .
First and foremost I'm a bowhunter. The only time I've used buckshot is when still hunting in the thick stuff or shooting yotes. I use a rifle when hunting from a stand. I'm never there for bow season.

I have access to hundreds of acres of private, family owned land. Most times I'm the only one hunting. If not, we always know were the other guys are. The number one rule for hunting or shooting in general, know what's down range before you shoot. It's just another tool for a specific type of hunting and it works well.


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## jarhead70usmc

Absolutely correct there Rut My dad taught the that as the first rule of hunting or shooting when I was a vary young boy at the age of 6. then I got an additional drilling on that in bootcamp. NEVER EVER SHOOT IF YOU CANNOT SEE YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT............................................. If I Mis read your thoughts then I am so vary sorry or perhaps I read to quickly


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## c. j. stone

sherman51 said:


> there is just to many people that would take longer shots at a herd of deer and with a group of deer at say 70 yrds there would just be to many wounded deer. buckshot was designed to be used in very heavy cover like in Alabama where most shots are 30 or 40 yrds max. places like Indiana and ohio is just to open for buckshot to be practical. i'll take my muzzle loader any day over buckshot.
> 
> sherman



Exactly, and using Alabama as an example, they have many more deer(than Ohio, and definitely not our same Quality!) and want to keep the herd under control by any means. Last I heard, which was years ago!, the limit was five---PER DAY!!


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