# Hard Cider



## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

I cant remember if it was on here or another website where I was reading about somebody making hard cider. Anyways , I decided to try a little science experiment. After watching some youtube videos about it I went and bought a 5 gallon bucket with lid, some plastic tubing, 4 gallons of cider, brown sugar and some yeast. I couldnt find the right kind of yeast so I know it may not turn out right but I just bought some yeast packets in the baking isle at meijer. I sterilized everything and since the cider jugs said it was already pasteurized , I just poured everything into the bucket, mixed it up and sealed it with the tube running through a hole in the lid ( air tight seal around the tube ) the tube runs down into a glass of water ( homemade air lock ). I guess now I just wait a couple weeks and see what happens. Has anybody on here done it this way before ?


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

I make traditional German applewine (apfelwien), as well as beer. 

You sound like you did ok, but next time I would get wine or beer yeast. I'm not sure how well the baking yeast will work, but definitely let us know! it could turn out awesome. 

You can get packets of dry wine yeast at your local home brew shop (or online) for dirt cheap.


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## capt S (Sep 5, 2007)

throw some cinniman sticks in with the cider and watch out gooooood stuffff!!!


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

capt S said:


> throw some cinniman sticks in with the cider and watch out gooooood stuffff!!!


I thought about doing that but wasnt sure how cinnimon will affect the yeast. I read that some spices kill bacteria and I dont know if cinnimon is one of them.


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## peple of the perch (Sep 13, 2004)

4 gallons of cider.....That's A lot. lol


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## auglaizewader (Aug 30, 2007)

4 gallons of cider could land a bunch of people on the pot for awhile


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

peple of the perch said:


> 4 gallons of cider.....That's A lot. lol


Lots of frosty mugs sittin around an evening backyard fire this fall. 

Actually I just wasnt sure how much to try , since I have a 5 gallon bucket for some reason I was thinkin 4 gallons  But hey,....if I decide to distill it then the more I got the better....I dont think I will this time around tho, but next time I may give it a try.

I got out of bed this morning and walked past the bucket, its doin somethin because the tube is blowing bubbles in the glass of water like crazy. Must be some happy yeast in there.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

auglaizewader said:


> 4 gallons of cider could land a bunch of people on the pot for awhile


Haha! good point


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

yonderfishin said:


> But hey,....if I decide to *distill* it then the more I got the better....


you going to make some moonshine? 

5 gallons is standard for homebrew batches. especially for beer, there is some work involved so its better to make a lot at once.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

seethe303 said:


> you going to make some moonshine?


Not necessarily , but I know how to do it pretty easily just with some stuff I can find around the house.  I think it might come out more like brandy unless I distilled it even further. Only problem is it would lose the cider flavor and be a waste of cider. Heres a link to a video of the co2 bubbling out....kinda boring but it shows the stuff is doin its thing inside the bucket.


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

that looks like fermentation. fermentation != distillation. 

distillation (which is illegal) requires heat and pressure.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Yeah, I know distillation is usually illegal so in reality I wont be doing it. Was just fun to think about making these experiments . Im glad fermentation is legal tho cuz Ive always liked to tinker with stuff. Maybe some day I will get into bottling it.


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## ohiohunter43015 (Feb 23, 2009)

Nothing beats warm cider with a shot of aftershock in it. Will cure a cold in a heartbeat! Or at least not caring you have one.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

My father in law makes several batches of blackbeery wine every year, and the bread yeast actually seems to make a better tasting wine than the wine or champaign yeasts do, and the alcohol content is just as high.


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

I Fish said:


> My father in law makes several batches of blackbeery wine every year, and the bread yeast actually seems to make a better tasting wine than the wine or champaign yeasts do, and the alcohol content is just as high.


well there ya go man! 

keep in mind that people were brewing beer and making wine before they even knew what yeast was or what caused fermentation.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

How do you keep it from turning to vinegar ?


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## fishinjim (Aug 9, 2006)

yeast dies when the alcohol content gets too high for the particular type of yeast you use.
for a strong batch, use champagne yeast!


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## Darby Rat (Aug 8, 2005)

In high school I used to make 1 gal batches of hard cider to take to football games. Nobody ever knew, and we would get blasted right in the stands. Always took some donuts to munch on too. Several things to note: 1.) just keep air away while the fermintation is going on, or you will get vinegar. No air=alcohol, air=vinegar. 2.) distillations come in 2 varieties: atmospheric (open to the air)and vaccum. I would distill some of the hard cider to make apple jack (technically a brandy-apple brandy) under atmospheric conditions. The distillate (virtually pure ethanol) comes out clear, but still has the apple flavor to it. This occurs because the apple flavor (methyl butyrate) co-distills with the alcohol in whats called an azeotrope. So you could really spike up your already hard cider even more if you wanted, or just do it straight. By the way, you can light it with a match. 3.) fishinjim is correct, fermentation yeast die when the alcohol reaches around ~12 to 13% depending on the type. That's why wine is usually around these percentages in stores. That's all, ferment up some juice and have fun!


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

could some one pass along the recipe and or process for this sounds like fun (making it and drinking it) would be usefull for the harvest party can pm me or post would be appreciated


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

fishintechnician said:


> could some one pass along the recipe and or process for this sounds like fun (making it and drinking it) would be usefull for the harvest party can pm me or post would be appreciated


I found a lot of information and recipes just by typing " how to make hard cider" into google and reading the results , also if you look up hard cider on youtube there are many videos of it on there,....thats where I seen how to use a bucket/lid and improvised air lock for the batch I am making now. When its done I will let everybody know how it turned out but I just put in the cider, brown sugar and 3 packets of regular yeast and mixed well ( my first attempt at it ) After the initial expense of the equiptment, and bottling supplies if I get around to doing that,...this seems a lot cheaper than buying beer. I would never be able to buy 4 gallons of beer for $14.99 ( what I paid for 4 gallons of cider and a 99 cent pkg. of yeast ). I do think I will be making more and tweaking the recipe a lot.


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## Slawterr (Aug 18, 2009)

Darby Rat said:


> 3.) fishinjim is correct, fermentation yeast die when the alcohol reaches around ~12 to 13% depending on the type. That's why wine is usually around these percentages in stores. That's all, ferment up some juice and have fun!


You could add some highly fermentable sugars like corn sugar after your fermentation is complete and toss in some distillers yeast which could get you close to the 20% ABV mark if you really wanted.  Freeze distill and then run your lawnmower on it.


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## Darby Rat (Aug 8, 2005)

I made my apple jack simply this way. I bought 1 gal jugs of unpreserved cider. Put in a pinch of bread yeast from Mom's kitchen. Put a rubber stopper in the top of the gal jugs with a plastic tube going to a container of water. Never let the hose slip out of the water. When the bubbling stopped, usually after about 2 weeks, I filtered the dregs through a paper towel. No sugar added, enough sugar already in the cider. Turned out good and hard.


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## fishinjim (Aug 9, 2006)

all this talk has me itchin to make a batch again. It's been a good 10 years since I brewed and nothing is easier than hard cider!

Jim


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

well i'm doing it ordered my yeast today i am going to make one batch of hard cider and one batch of mead, which is honey wine and sounds pretty easy to make. I bought brewers yeast that is called alcotec. It is supposed to produce 20% alcohol opposed to 10-12%. and is supposed to be ready in five days (done fermenting) should be good and hard! also yonder did you use cider that had preservatives? all the recipies i found said to use unpreserved juice/cider or it will take alot longer to ferment. also said that baking yeast will work just won't have as strong of an alcohol content because the yeast will die when the alcohol content reaches around 10 % most champainge yeast is good to 12-14% and the stuff i got is good to 20% I'll keep you all updated on how it turns out also how do you guys bottle yours. i was thinking of getting some glass half gallon jugs and doing 8 out of ten gallons this way then bottle two gallons in 16 oz bottles so i can give some to family and friens any input on this process would be more than appreciated


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

I bottled the cider today  went to the local brew shop looking to check prices on bottling supplies and ended up getting some caps and a crimper for $20. The shop owner has cases of used bottles for free so I took them and soaked them in hot bleach and dish detergent water and cleaned all the labels and glue off, then ran them thru the dishwasher. I wound up with 24 bottles and two 2 litler soda bottles of cider. The cider came out really yeasty tasting and a bit tart but tastes like wine with an apple flavored burp  I am planning my next batch now and will use a different yeast and will put nutmeg or cinnamon in for added flavor. I think I may try making beer too , the anticipation of seeing how something I made comes out is addictive.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

fishintechnician said:


> also yonder did you use cider that had preservatives? all the recipies i found said to use unpreserved juice/cider or it will take alot longer to ferment. also said that baking yeast will work just won't have as strong of an alcohol content because the yeast will die when the alcohol content reaches around 10 %



The cider I used had ascorbic acid ( vitamin C ) added which from what I read is ok. It was 50 cents per gallon cheaper so I got it instead. I am unsure of the alcohol content in this stuff but after drinking one coffee cup full I was starting to feel it a little. It has been fun making the stuff and bottling it was even fun even though it was quite a bit of work.


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## Whiskerhunter (Sep 24, 2009)

Distillation is perfectly legal for personal consumption last I looked. It does require some jumping through ATF hoops though... can't deny Uncle Sam his unearned cut of your paycheck. There is a per person limit per year that is legal to make (I don't know the limit offhand). The distinction, much like brewing and oenology (winemaking), is in the intended usage: you can make for personal, but you must have a license to produce for sales.


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## fishinjim (Aug 9, 2006)

I've bottled my cider in pint mason jars. They don't need the c02 like beer does and the mason jars are much easier to clean - they fit in the dishwasher.

I used to make beer but it was so hard to keep everything sanitized that I quit.

Jim


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Whiskerhunter said:


> Distillation is perfectly legal for personal consumption last I looked. It does require some jumping through ATF hoops though... can't deny Uncle Sam his unearned cut of your paycheck. There is a per person limit per year that is legal to make (I don't know the limit offhand). The distinction, much like brewing and oenology (winemaking), is in the intended usage: you can make for personal, but you must have a license to produce for sales.


"Distillation" is turning beer or wine into liquor and is illegal , which is stupid. If you can make alcohol legally then why cant you concentrate it ? But whatever, law is law. "Fermentation" is adding yeast to anything containing starch or sugar and making beer or wine which is legal ,.....amount dosent really matter ( even though its on the books as law it can only be a certain amount) because nobody is going door to door searching your home to see how much you have made


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

fishinjim said:


> I've bottled my cider in pint mason jars. They don't need the c02 like beer does and the mason jars are much easier to clean - they fit in the dishwasher.
> 
> I used to make beer but it was so hard to keep everything sanitized that I quit.
> 
> Jim


I was gonna do it that way but I wanted it to have some carbonation , so I put it in bottles to handle pressure and added a pinch of sugar to each.


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## Whiskerhunter (Sep 24, 2009)

yonderfishin said:


> "Distillation" is turning beer or wine into liquor and is illegal , which is stupid. If you can make alcohol legally then why cant you concentrate it ? But whatever, law is law. "Fermentation" is adding yeast to anything containing starch or sugar and making beer or wine which is legal ,.....amount dosent really matter ( even though its on the books as law it can only be a certain amount) because nobody is going door to door searching your home to see how much you have made


By this logic, Jack Daniels distillery is operating illegally... Please READ my posts before you comment. I clearly stated that there were ATF hoops to jump through. Their "licensing" procedures are nothing more in essence than making sure you pay taxes on your booze. The amount you intend to produce certainly does matter as the ATF provides several levels of said "licensing". I have dealt with this in the state of Oregon with some friends who were starting a small distillery. Perhaps I wasn't quite clear in my thought to text translation... wouldn't be the first time.

However, with all that said... on a personal usage level, there is little to no enforcement of these statues, and home distilling is very much a growing hobby. I wouldn't be surprised to see the ATF re-evaluate the legislation in the not-to-distant future to allow a couple gallons per annum per household member.


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

Whiskerhunter said:


> Distillation is perfectly legal for personal consumption last I looked.


could you cite your sources please?

recently there was a bill in congress to legalize home distilling, however it did not pass.


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## bonsai87 (Sep 17, 2007)

If you want to Distill in ohio..you must obtain the correct permits ( just like carrying a concealed weapon)..and to distill in ohio you need city state and federal permits ...otherwise without those permits any type of distillation is illegal!!!!....making beer and wine is NOT distillation and is legal...Distillation : the process of purifying a liquid by successive evaporation and condensation....aka making a mash.. boiling it and collecting the condensation...which would be a more purified form of alcohol...liquor...and again in the state of ohio this IS illegal UNLESS you have the proper permits!!..but fermenting is not illegal ( making beer..wine..hard cider)


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Whiskerhunter said:


> By this logic, Jack Daniels distillery is operating illegally... Please READ my posts before you comment. I clearly stated that there were ATF hoops to jump through. Their "licensing" procedures are nothing more in essence than making sure you pay taxes on your booze. The amount you intend to produce certainly does matter as the ATF provides several levels of said "licensing". I have dealt with this in the state of Oregon with some friends who were starting a small distillery. Perhaps I wasn't quite clear in my thought to text translation... wouldn't be the first time.
> 
> However, with all that said... on a personal usage level, there is little to no enforcement of these statues, and home distilling is very much a growing hobby. I wouldn't be surprised to see the ATF re-evaluate the legislation in the not-to-distant future to allow a couple gallons per annum per household member.


Basically you and I are saying the exact same thing. Distilling is legal after you have obtained the permits, satisfied federal and local laws, and be sure all taxes are paid if the stuff is sold......in other words for the average joe looking to turn his beer into moonshine in his kitchen it is illegal because nobody is gonna jump thru those hoops for an experiment or hobby. But I would not be scared at all of distilling small amounts in my garage or kitchen.


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## Whiskerhunter (Sep 24, 2009)

Yeah, I prolly phrased that poorly yonder. The upshot is that it is legal, but you have to have the permits/licensing from the ATF, which as I mentioned before are little more than making sure you pay Uncle Sam for your booze whether he earned it or not. And as a matter of practicality, the ATF isn't gonna come after you for making a couple gallons in your garage unless you are selling it. 

The laws against home-distilling are a throwback from the prohibition era and really need to be re-examined and provide for Joe average who wants to produce a couple gallons at home. I vaguely remember that bill coming up to de-criminalize home-distilling, and it was defeated for a good reason, though I forget what the heck the reason was. I think it might have been the lack of provision for limiting the amount, sales, etc. but I am not positive.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Question:
Does anyone know if i could make a "hard cider" out of other juices? I would assume that as long as they ddin't have preservative i could do it. Was thinking like grape wild berrie mix. Was gonna do a batch of mead but that gets kind of costly ( need over a gallon of honey) any input would be appreciated


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

You can ferment anything with a lot of sugar or startch in it as long as it has no added preservatives , ascorbic acid ( vitamin C ) added is fine and wont hurt the yeast. So thats quite a large list of things to try out.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Just put two jugs of all natural Apple Juice on the shelf lastnight after reading this....an experiment . I used regular bakers yeast. If it actually works I will get more serious about this. Nothing like brewing your own brew!


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

mushi-baking yeast should work did you use an airlock at all? If not the expanding gases may cause you problems, or if not sealed will turn to vinegar.

I was thinking of oj for a mixing base (other drinks) but after reading other reviews decided against it. Going tommorow to get the rest of my supplies and get the batches going will keep all posted


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Yes, I jerry-rigged an airlock for each. For one jug, I took a hot sewing needle and poked a hole in the top of the cap. This hole is tiny, and hopefully won't let anything in. For the other, I put plastic wrap over the top with a rubber band around it. While it seems tight, there is enough of an unseen gap to release the gases. Both are bubbling like crazy and smelling up my basement slightly . We will see if it works!


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

Mushijobah said:


> and smelling up my basement slightly .


for some reason apple juice smells like farts when it is fermenting. 

beer smells really good though when it is fermenting. and being brewed. and consumed...


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## 5Cent (Jun 4, 2004)

All this talk.....I'm out to get a few gallons of unpasturized apple cider tonight....keep this thread going. I'm curious to see how everyone's turns out.

I'm going to try one gallon with just yeast, then the other with some more sugar and cinnamon. I can taste it already.....


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

The gasses coming from mine smell goooood....how often can that be said? Hey experienced brewers....does a store bought airlock need to be bought? I poked a tiny hole in the cap on one of mine, and sealed the other with plastic wrap. It still lets a tiny amount of gas out.


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

Mushijobah said:


> The gasses coming from mine smell goooood....how often can that be said? Hey experienced brewers....does a store bought airlock need to be bought? I poked a tiny hole in the cap on one of mine, and sealed the other with plastic wrap. It still lets a tiny amount of gas out.


probably not. hell, people brewed for thousands of years without todays methods of sanitation and high standards of equipment.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

I put up my first batch last night the recipie calls for a pound of sugar for every gallon of juice so i used 2 pounds white sugar, 1 pound brown sugar and 1 pound honey. Put in large stock pot and warmed (Not boiled) one gallon of apple juice. Added sugars and honey as well as some ground cinnamon and three cinnamon sticks stired until well disolved and then putt in 5 gal water jug with 3 more gallons of room temp juice and three more sticks of cinnamon as well as two table spoons of lemon juice (clarifier) let cool to room temp then add yeast stir for 1 min then cap it off. fo an air lock i drilled a small hole and inserted an air tube ran to a glass of water. Checked it this morning and it was bubbling like crazy! And my gasses smell really good too can't wait for it to be done.

Still tossing around the idea of making mead (honey beer) but i need 12-15 lbs of honey and a 3lb bottle was 9 bucks! I think it would be really good though, not sure if i wanna do that or try another juice mix i think if this all works out ok i might get into doing my own beer it is pretty fun not to mention easy


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Mushijobah said:


> The gasses coming from mine smell goooood....how often can that be said? Hey experienced brewers....does a store bought airlock need to be bought? I poked a tiny hole in the cap on one of mine, and sealed the other with plastic wrap. It still lets a tiny amount of gas out.


You dont need a store bought airlock , the jerry rigged versions work just as good. Just be sure to keep everything airtight so gasses will come out but air cant get in or it will get corrupted with other types of microrganisims and turn to vinegar. I use a hot glue gun but any type of glue substance will work, around the tube from the container to seal it tight. The whole idea of the airlock is to keep out air and make sure its a one way valve. After its done bubbling or atleast slowed quite a bit the cider will be done. After that you can drink it as it is or do a secondary fermentation in a different container if you want to finish it off and make it more clear , but its not necessary.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

I will be bottling my second batch today that I used come champagne yeast ( Lavlin EC-118 ) with , because its not really doing much. I sampled it today and it tastes like a really good apple wine with not much yeast taste at all and the alcohol content is really good and more than with the bread yeast. Most people recommend giving it a lot more time and then letting it age after bottling but that I will do after i experiment some more. I have another batch using bread yeast that is mostly water and 4 pounds of dark brown sugar with cinnimon and apple pie seasoning and one gallon of apple juice that really never took off the way the first batch did but I am gonna give it atleast until the beginning of next week and then open it up. Seems apple cider ferments easily but using a lot of water and sugar takes longer for some reason. I will get into aging it correctly later but for now I am happy with speeding the process along and seeing what comes out afterwards.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

How are you guysfiltering your cider afterwards? I heard through a paper towell...is that the best way?


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

Mushijobah said:


> How are you guysfiltering your cider afterwards? I heard through a paper towell...is that the best way?


don't filter it. all that stuff left over is really good for you.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

seethe303 said:


> don't filter it. all that stuff left over is really good for you.


seethe's been doing this kind of thing for a while so he knows what he is talking about . Cheesecloth would probably be better for a filter but until you get into bottling and aging it really isnt necessary and atleast to me having it cloudy with sediment in it makes it even better


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

The dead yeast colonies are good for me? They may be, I don't know if I'm down to consume them though, lol.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

The sediment usually collects at the bottom and if you dont disturb it much you can pour most of the cider out without all the sludge. Yeast is in or on almost everything you eat or drink anyway , even fresh fruit. If it helps any , alcohol is the yeast by product , or excretion.....I dont think it would be too inaccurate to call it yeast pee  so if you can swallow that then a yeast colony shouldnt be too difficult. Bear in mind that we have all these microrganisims and more in our body anyway and in certain amounts they usually are at work keeping us healthy. The only difference between drinking yeast colonies in cider and eating an apple or even taking a breath of air , is that there are more of them in the cider and you can actually see it , but they are everywhere and on everything even if you cant see them.


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## seethe303 (Dec 12, 2006)

good post yonder!

if you don't disturb the bottle you can get most of the good stuff out without much of the yeast on the bottom. keep in mind though there are styles of beers that are supposed to be consumed with the yeast. a lot of Belgian beers are like this.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Yep, I'm aware of the processes....I'm just kind of grossed out by eating pure yeast sludge at the bottom . Another example is Mother of Vinegar...some people will eat is for supposed heath benefits...not me, yuck...haha


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Well I bottled my first batch last night I used pint jars and sealed them ended up with 24 pints and about half gallon extra. Mine got really cloudy so i let it settle a while longer had a good taste but kind of dry ( again I think from my yeast) so I added a little sugar and cinampn when I canned it. Made sure to heat it too to kill the yeast. Mine came out with a VERY high alcohol content, drank about a half pint and was tipsy. I warmed it in the microwave for about 20 sec then added a little cinamonsugar stired in and it was delicious. May make another batch or try a different kind not sure yet


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## peple of the perch (Sep 13, 2004)

man you guys are going to be drunk till X-mas. lol


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

I just made a batch using beer brewing yeast and it came out great. Still sweet and has the cider flavor with about as much alcohol as beer. I think that is the yeast I will use from now on since it dosent distort the natural flavors. My next project will be to make actual beer but it costs more and the process takes a little longer so its probably gonna be something I do during the winter weather we have in store.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

peple of the perch said:


> man you guys are going to be drunk till X-mas. lol


thats the plan


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## Dawitner (Apr 25, 2004)

I do 10 to 15 gallons every year. Ferment the cider with champagne yeast and 4 lbs sugar per 5 gallons in a plastic bucket with an airlock. Rack it off to a glass carboy to settle for 6 months or so then bottle it in beer bottles with a little sugar and some yeast. It carbonates up really nice. The trick it to pour it into a glass before you drink it, pour it easy and don't pour off the bottom 1/4" or so. 

Great stuff but dont drink more than 2. 

All the supplies you need at Grape & Granary in Akron, check our their website.


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## pal21 (Mar 9, 2008)

Question for anybody. 

Where do you finr unpastureized cider?


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

pal21 said:


> Question for anybody.
> 
> Where do you finr unpastureized cider?


Usually the only places to get unpasteurized cider is at an apple orchard where they squeeze it , or get the apples and squeeze it yourself. I just use the pasteurized kind but without preservatives to make hard cider. If it has ascorbic acid ( vitamin c ) added its fine but you dont want anything else added.


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## pal21 (Mar 9, 2008)

I didn't know that. I had read someplace that pasturization would prevent the yeast from doing it's thing.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Preservatives prevent the yeast from doing it's thing. i used Motts apple juice to do mine then just add whatever spices that I want


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## Dawitner (Apr 25, 2004)

Pastuerization should only kill the bad bugs, not stop the cider from fermenting. It probably kills the wild yeast that is present on all fruit. When I make mine I put sodium bisulfite in first to kill the wild yeast then go back the next day and pitch the type of yeast that I want to use. 

All fermentation takes is sugar and yeast. I would think that the preservatives in store bought cider would not inhibit the growth of yeast once you added your own.


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## Dawitner (Apr 25, 2004)

I press my own, I have grinder and press and can make about 10 gallons in about an hour. 

If someone has an excess of apples next year let me know I would be glad to share the press. The apples dont have to be nice and the ones I usually get are not sprayed. The only thing is you really should pick them off the trees and not off the ground. The ones on the ground have the risk of carrying botulism. I also give them a bath in dilute bleach water first then fresh water to kill any bacteria.


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## The Yeti (Mar 17, 2009)

Sorry I'm late to the party 



capt S said:


> throw some cinniman sticks in with the cider and watch out gooooood stuffff!!!


It's best to add the cinnamon sticks after the fermentation is complete. The yeast would consume the cellulose in the cinnamon bark and create small amounts of methanol. Probably won't kill ya but it's definitely not good for ya.



seethe303 said:


> that looks like fermentation. fermentation != distillation.
> 
> distillation (which is illegal) requires heat and pressure.


Distilling water, wine, and other such liquids uses the same process and equipment but is totally legal. It's also legal to distill pure grain alcohol if imediately afterwards it is denatured with gasoline or something like that. It's just the distillation of moonshine that's illegal without a license.



Whiskerhunter said:


> ...There is a per person limit per year that is legal to make (I don't know the limit offhand).


The current limit is 200 gallons per household per year for private wine and beer making.



pal21 said:


> Question for anybody.
> 
> Where do you find unpastureized cider?


A local apple orchard is always a good start - support the small business and they usually have a better product anyways. Hollemeyer's west of Cincinnati has always been my favorite!

Here's a link to Ohio apple orchards I just found:
http://www.ohioapples.com/ohio_apple_orchards_alphabetical.php


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## The Yeti (Mar 17, 2009)

Darby Rat said:


> Several things to note: 1.) just keep air away while the fermintation is going on, or you will get vinegar. No air=alcohol, air=vinegar.


The type of yeast determines whether you'll have vinegar or alcohol - most wild yeasts produce vinegar...so you're still right with keeping it sealed from the outside environment.



Dawitner said:


> Pastuerization should only kill the bad bugs, not stop the cider from fermenting. It probably kills the wild yeast that is present on all fruit. When I make mine I put sodium bisulfite in first to kill the wild yeast then go back the next day and pitch the type of yeast that I want to use.


Pastuerization will kill the yeast, which will stop the fermentation process. The yeast can't handle exposure to the relatively high temps the Pastuerizing process involves.


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## Darby Rat (Aug 8, 2005)

The type of yeast has nothing whatsoever in determining whether alcohol or acid (lactic acid) is produced. It's determined by whether the fermentation was conducted under aerobic (with air available), or anerobic (no air available) conditions. In addition, yeast do not break down cellulose, they generally use sugars as a food source. But cellulase enzymes (like those found in cows stomachs), do break down cellulose, but they are not yeasts, but enzymes. Also, there is no known metabolic reaction in any living cell that produces methanol. Why would anyone want to stop the fermentation process? The whole goal of the process IS to produce as much HOOCH as possible isn't it? Not limit it. Anyway, as the alcohol level increases in the jugs (generally around 12-14%), it starts to kill off the yeast anyway, so the whole process eventually stops on it's own. Basically the yeasts own waste product (alcohol) kills itself off over time.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

The type of yeast used does determine alcohol content and flavor , thats why some kill off the yeast and use their prefered variety. So far Ive found that using wine or champagne yeast makes a higher alcohol content and drier , tart cider while using beer yeast makes a sweet mildly alcoholic cider with almost all the natural apple flavor , using regular baking yeast makes a good sweet cider as well but with a very yeasty or bread dough flavor....makes it really fast though. Using turbo yeast or super yeast makes an extremely high alcohol content but nasty tasting cider suited for distilling and making liquor. Ive read that natural yeasts make the best tasting cider but the results vary and could at times become vinegar even though no air got to it , or that is can have other bacterial contamination.


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## The Yeti (Mar 17, 2009)

Darby Rat said:


> The type of yeast has nothing whatsoever in determining whether alcohol or acid (lactic acid) is produced. It's determined by whether the fermentation was conducted under aerobic (with air available), or anerobic (no air available) conditions. In addition, yeast do not break down cellulose, they generally use sugars as a food source. But cellulase enzymes (like those found in cows stomachs), do break down cellulose, but they are not yeasts, but enzymes. Also, there is no known metabolic reaction in any living cell that produces methanol. Why would anyone want to stop the fermentation process? The whole goal of the process IS to produce as much HOOCH as possible isn't it? Not limit it. Anyway, as the alcohol level increases in the jugs (generally around 12-14%), it starts to kill off the yeast anyway, so the whole process eventually stops on it's own. Basically the yeasts own waste product (alcohol) kills itself off over time.


Direct quote from the WineMaker's Home Wine-Making Instructions printed by R. Allen Enterprises, Inc. 1972 - "It is essential to use a specific yeast culture, such as the montrachet yeast, in winemaking, for two reasons: 1) wild yeasts may turn your wine into vinegar, 2) montrachet yeast is so inexpensive and simple to use it is not worth the chance to turn your wine into cooking vinegar." It may be that wild yeasts are introduced to the batch through the air or that they can survive in an aerobic environment, whereas the yeasts you want in there need an anaerobic environment, but it most certainly has to do with the type of yeast.

**montrachet yeast is just a generic, all-purpose wine yeast

I pulled that out of a book, not some shady website. I was wrong on my explanation of yeasts breaking down cellulose into methanol though. It is actually the fermentation of stuff with a high concentration of pectin that produces the methanol. Whether it's through direct fermentation of the pectin or a by-product of some other reaction, I can't say. And I'm still pretty sure that yeast can and will break down cellulose since it is a form of sugar, but if it's actually an enzymatic process, I haven't read that either.

This information is coming from books, not Wikipedia and billybobs-moonshine.com. I have a decent library on the topic as I got in to it at a very early age.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

I used the turbo yeast and mine tasted pretty good a little dry like yonder mentioned but still has a good flavor, but alot of mother in it and it was slow to settle but it turned out with a very high alcohol content my guesse would be between 18-24% it has a beer smell to it and almost dry taste like champagne but still fruity and sweet........if that makes any sense. I liked it and would use it again but before botteling and after fermentaion I will pu tin smaller containers to settle


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## Darby Rat (Aug 8, 2005)

I know you believe in the essence of the wine-making instructions from 1972, and that 's fine. But I still have trouble with line 1.) wild yeasts may turn your wine into vinegar (actually lactic acid, not vinegar). All yeasts do one thing, and that's consume sugars and make either alcohol+CO2 or lactic acid. Yes, wild yeasts (or any others) may turn your wine into vinegar, if exposed to air during fermentation. Printed material, like the internet, should always be taken for face value and never be taken as the absolute truth. Only after further scrutiny from other resources, and the rationalization process is applied, can an intelligent decision be made on it's value. The statement "the fermentation of stuff with a high concentration of pectin that produces the methanol" is also incorrect. Again, no methanol is produced. Pectin chemically speaking is a complex polysaccharide composed of the backbone sugar D-Galacturonic acid that forms plant cell walls and other structural support parts. A large amount of Pectin in plants is in their fruits. The Pectin is broken down by the plants themselves as the fruit is ripening, not by any yeasts. Certainly any yeasts present could then ferment these simple sugars. This renders the fruit soft so the seeds can be released easier. The two enzymes that break down Pectin are: Pectinase, and Pectinesterase, both contained in the plant cells themselves. My information never comes from: " some shady website, not Wikipedia and billybobs-moonshine.com" I also have a great Science library, and that's where I always get my facts. Since you have a good library too, and I think that's great by the way, go to any Biochemistry book and read the section on Glycolysis. It will clearly explain the biochemical pathways leading to either alcohol or lactic acid. When differing opinions are based upon Science, the truth usually is the clearly elucidated.

By the way, these are my textbook references: 

1.) Biochemisty by Albert L. Lehninger pp.313-335.
2.) Principles of Biochemistry by White:Handler:Smith pp.423-444.

Hey, let's all just make some hard cider, however it's done, and have a jolly old time!


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

When using natural yeasts you will also have a fair amount of other organisims including the ones that change alcohol to vinegar. Using sterile juice and adding the kind of yeast you want growing in it , and then keeping the container air tight so dirty air dont get in keeps the vinegar producing bacteria out. There is no way to keep the vinegar bacteria out of natural yeast starter , so the chances of ending up with vinegar really quick are pretty good.


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## The Yeti (Mar 17, 2009)

Darby Rat said:


> I know you believe in the essence of the wine-making instructions from 1972, and that 's fine...
> 
> By the way, these are my textbook references:
> 
> ...


Look, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you since we're both gonna end up with soggy shoes. Chemistry was never one of my strong points and it seems like you know a lot more than I, so I'll let you have the floor on that one. In any event, I was merely trying to help the guy based on information that I obtained from printed materials that made it through various authors and editors. And if I'm incorrect, I will attribute the errors to them. I still think it's better to add the cinnamon sticks after the fermentation process if for nothing else than to get a better flavor. I learned that the old fashioned way.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

6 of one, half dozen of the other.....both right.


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