# Jim Stedke 09 on line mid winter seminar



## Jim Stedke

If the wheels are agreeable, I'd be happy to do an other on line seminar to help us all get through the next 7 or 8 weeks of cabin fever. 

It should be a great year for walleye fishing with the '03 fish ranging in size from 20 - 25"s. Also, if the ice cover remains in place, that seems to increase the potential for a good year class. (wouldn't that be sweet).

Thanks to all the OGFers who made themselves known at the boat show, and thanks for the good attendance (& good questions) at the seminars.

I think most of the exhibitors were happy with the show, or at least the ones that I know where.


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## Guest

What kind of line do you use to run crank baits trolling? Kgone has got me thinking on changing to mono and size.


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## ErieAngler

When pulling inline boards (2 on 1 side), what is the easiest way to set the rods? Do you always run the rod you are setting out the back and move the back board forward? Also, can you run both boards with the same set-up, at the same depth easily? For instance flatlining 2 deep diving husky jerks with the board set at 100 ft. Or do you always stagger them? 

I have only run boards a couple times, I have caught several fish off of them, but they always seemed to be a pain in the rear for me to set and run.

Thanks for doing this again!


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## ErieAngler

tubuzz2 said:


> What kind of line do you use to run crank baits trolling? Kgone has got me thinking on changing to mono and size.


Not sure if this helps but I've always run XT 10lb mono and 30lb PP. This is what was suggested to me from a lot of folks because it matches well with dive curves. Ive never had issues with the XT either.


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## Guest

I been running the power pro 30lbs on all my rods then tie a flo carbon leader for cranks. I have been running cranks or harness with inline weight off in-line boards last year just thinking on switching to mono 10lbs?


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## ErieAngler

I only use the PP to run dipsys, makes it a lot easier to trip specially when you need to run them deeeep. I'm interested to hear the advantages of mono with the exception that the dive curve charts are based on 10lb mono. Now I'm starting to wonder if they also show the curves for braid......? Hmmm, been too long I guess! Spring needs to get here quick


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## Buckeye Ron

Jim Stedke said:


> If the wheels are agreeable, I'd be happy to do an other on line seminar to help us all get through the next 7 or 8 weeks of cabin fever.
> 
> It should be a great year for walleye fishing with the '03 fish ranging in size from 20 - 25"s. Also, if the ice cover remains in place, that seems to increase the potential for a good year class. (wouldn't that be sweet).
> 
> Thanks to all the OGFers who made themselves known at the boat show, and thanks for the good attendance (& good questions) at the seminars.
> 
> I think most of the exhibitors were happy with the show, or at least the ones that I know where.


Jim,
When is it the right time to use a 400, 500, 600, 700 & 800 series Reef Runners?

Thanks,
Ron


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## Jim Stedke

tubuzz2 said:


> What kind of line do you use to run crank baits trolling? Kgone has got me thinking on changing to mono and size.


I too like mono 10# Berkley Big Game is good cheap line. If you have a personal preference ... go for it.


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## Jim Stedke

ErieAngler said:


> When pulling inline boards (2 on 1 side), what is the easiest way to set the rods? Do you always run the rod you are setting out the back and move the back board forward? Also, can you run both boards with the same set-up, at the same depth easily? For instance flatlining 2 deep diving husky jerks with the board set at 100 ft. Or do you always stagger them?
> 
> I have only run boards a couple times, I have caught several fish off of them, but they always seemed to be a pain in the rear for me to set and run.
> 
> Thanks for doing this again!


It's just a matter of getting used to them. I often run the outside bd higher than the inside bd. Like a Rip Stick back 90 on the outside, and a Reef Runner back 40 on the inside. This allows for easier outside line clearance, but you need to keep the outside line outside. So you set the lure, drop the bd in & and send it straight back well behind the inside board, engage the reel and let it pull to the outside again.

If I'm running to deep Huskys at the same drop length, then cycling the rods is fine if you choose to do so.

Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## Jim Stedke

Buckeye Ron said:


> Jim,
> When is it the right time to use a 400, 500, 600, 700 & 800 series Reef Runners?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ron[/QUOTE
> 
> Ron, I use 700 & 800 way more than the others, but that's not to say that the others are unproductive. The 400 (Lg Ripshad) & 600 (Dp Little Ripper) have both worked well for me when the fish are eating shad (June & July). The 500 (Little Ripper) is a good lure to run behind a Jet or a Dipsy in mid-late summer.
> 
> Mark Brumbaugh & Scott both like to use the 500s at night, and they've caught some large eyes on them.
> 
> I'm probably guilty of not playing w/ the 4 5 & 6 hundreds as much as I should, but I don't like to complicate my trolling with snap wts unless I have to.
> 
> That's about as good a non-answeras I can give.
> 
> I hope it helps.


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## ezbite

double willows and single colorados seem to be the standard harness game plan. i love running willows and i plan on running a single willow harness this spring and im hoping for good results, think they'll work or should i start investing in colorados? i got some colorados, but about 50x's more willows and i know what ones i like. thanks


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## Jim Stedke

ezbite said:


> double willows and single colorados seem to be the standard harness game plan. i love running willows and i plan on running a single willow harness this spring and im hoping for good results, think they'll work or should i start investing in colorados? i got some colorados, but about 50x's more willows and i know what ones i like. thanks



Tom, The single willow will work fine. If it doesn't do as well as you think it should, try going to a larger size.

Speed is key factor with blades, and the larger Colorados need to be run slow. Travis does well with big blades, but his speed is usually under 1 mph. Some of us have trouble with super slow presentations, and I resemble that remark.

Good luck & come on Spring!


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## blue dolphin

Ill chime in Jim if you dont mind on the Tom Question. Comparing willows with colorados is a tough one because the only similarity they have is flash or color. A willow espcecially a single will put out hardly if any thumping or vibration if you will. The reason colorados are so effective and why Travis and I plus others like them so much is that they put out so much thump and vibration the only other blade that does this is a hatchet. Getting negative or neutral fish to bite is some times a hard task and most of the time a big fish is one of those two. A colorado could be that subtle difference between catching him and not catching him. Tom if i were you I asked your wife to borrow some money for colorados lol. Thats my two cents any how just thought i throw the differences between the two. Good luck Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## ezbite

what are the speeds that hatchets can be ran at, those BPS ones look good. im like you jim, im prefer to run my speed a bit faster (1.5-2.0), think thats why i like willows so much. im not saying i dont have or dont run colorados, because there have been days out on the sandbar ive ran both and the double willows caught the fish, so off with the colorados and on with more willows. i guess i havent ran them enough to have the confidence in them that i do in willows. ok, do you ever run double colorado set-ups?

lets say im new to an area like vermillion, how do you go about finding walleye. is there a depth of water you start in for the time of the year, do you look at a map and fish contour breaks hoping to find them that way, look for surface currents, look for bait balls on your sonar or maybe a combination of all. im just wondering how the regular tourney guys go about finding fish so fast. i have to look for weeks before i find decent fish sometimes and then i still need some help.lol.


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## 2CatchEyes

This question is for either or both gary and/or jim. If it is july or august in conneaut and I want to harness fish off of dipsey's. What do I run single colorados or double willows? Do you base it off of the speed you can get your boat down to or the baitfish you are trying to duplicate or both? Do you leave the nightcrawler whole with a long tail past the treble or do you pinch it off just past the treble?

Curtis


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## Jim Stedke

Tom, I'll let Gary answer the hachet blade question (I'd guess 1 - 1.5mph).

On the new to the area thing, contour line cups and points are almost always the place where the active fish are located. Because they create an eddy which funnels food to the bait fish. Scum lines show converging surface currents and are always worth a look/see, same with clearity breaks and transitions between muddy water and clear. Little tick tacky marks and bait balls (especially high bait balls) interest me more than stacked up walleye marks. Of course if the walleyes are scattered and changing depth (or chasing) that's the ultimate find and screams "FISH HERE".

Dbl Colorados ... I do make a Dipsy harness w/ double Colorados but they are smaller blades usually one size 3 & one size 4 (the smaller one in front). My blades aren't as pretty (or as expensive) as Gary's or Kevin's and many are colorized with magic markers, but the fish don't seem to mind. 

Hanging tails: If I start getting cut off behind the hook, I'll pinch off the worm a couple inches behind the last hook, but I'd rather leave it if I can, I like the added action.

I hope this helps, & good luck.


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## beatsworkin

Ahhh another great reason not to work while at work! Thanks, in advance, for doing this again!


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## Jim Stedke

Curtis, The east fish are feeding on smelt and the local harnesses are dominated w/ dbl willows, so I'd likely start there. But I've done OK with the small Colorados over there as well. (smaller so they can take the speed). 

I'd add this: if you can't run under 2mph don't even try to run Colorados over size 4 or if you do make certain that you have good (Sampo) ball bearing swivels and heavy stiff leaders. (I use 25# flourocarbon).

Large blades too fast are guaranteed to cause a twisted up mess. 

Large Colorados calls the fish in, but they require speeds low enough that it stops you from running some other programs. For the last 2 years we've done more & more Dipsys w/ spoons combined w/ Reef Runners off the boards. (2 - 2.8 mph) 

If we wanted to incorporate harnesses, they'd have to be willows or smaller Colorados for Dipsys, and we'd have to reduce the speed to 1.8 - 2.3 . 

As I said over and over in my talks, you can catch these fish at whatever speed you want to train yourself to fish. 

But there are some presentations that just dictate a certain speed range. And if you try to run a faster program with a slower program.... both will suffer as will your catch rate.


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## ezbite

anyone evey ran these spageti beads in place of 6mm round. i got some yesterday because they didnt have the color i was looking for in the 6mm.


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## blue dolphin

Tom the hatchets that bass pro have are the bomb you will love them. More companies are starting to come out with hatchet options. I know R&R will have them eventually . Curtis Jim hit the nail on the head. Double willows out east are the ticket most of the time. The only exception would be if you had a major cold front in the middle of the summer and shut them down then single colorados slow might me the tickelt because there so negative. But ive caught plenty of tankers on double willows especially in the mid to late summer months. Good luck Gary


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## Gju42486

ezbite said:


> anyone evey ran these spageti beads in place of 6mm round. i got some yesterday because they didnt have the color i was looking for in the 6mm.


bahahahahaha! Tom, all you need now is some big 12mm beads that look like meatballs to go with your spaghetti beads.


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## Jim Stedke

Tom,
I have used them in place of 3 6mm beads on some color patterns with no problem. I never have them against the clevis.


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## Buckeye Ron

blue dolphin said:


> Ill chime in Jim if you dont mind on the Tom Question. Comparing willows with colorados is a tough one because the only similarity they have is flash or color. A willow espcecially a single will put out hardly if any thumping or vibration if you will. The reason colorados are so effective and why Travis and I plus others like them so much is that they put out so much thump and vibration the only other blade that does this is a hatchet. Getting negative or neutral fish to bite is some times a hard task and most of the time a big fish is one of those two. A colorado could be that subtle difference between catching him and not catching him. Tom if i were you I asked your wife to borrow some money for colorados lol. Thats my two cents any how just thought i throw the differences between the two. Good luck Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


Gary,
So are you running just a single Colorado blade ? is there ever a time when you would make a double bladed colorado harness ?
Thanks,
Ron


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## blue dolphin

Ron most of my harnesses are single colorados but on occassion i will run two number 3 or 4 colorados to spice things up a bit to get more of a reaction strike on negative fish at a faster speed rather than slow. Plus it enables me to cover more ground than if i was trolling a single colorado in a 6 or 7. Gary


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## ezbite

my first thought when i look at the hatchet is, i should be able to troll it close to willow speeds. is this a correct assumption? how fast can you troll hatchets? as for their sizing, is it the same as other blades, the bigger the number, the bigger the blade? i know it seems like the same questions, just phrased differently but i like to troll faster than 1mph to cover more water and im looking for something that will let me do that. thanks


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## Jim Stedke

ezbite said:


> my first thought when i look at the hatchet is, i should be able to troll it close to willow speeds. is this a correct assumption? how fast can you troll hatchets? as for their sizing, is it the same as other blades, the bigger the number, the bigger the blade? i know it seems like the same questions, just phrased differently but i like to troll faster than 1mph to cover more water and im looking for something that will let me do that. thanks


Tom, My though is about the same as Colorados. but Gary has more experience with them than I do, so let's see what he says.


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## Guest

Tom Colorados do catch fish that will not hit a willow. You will have to troll slower, but some time presentation is key. Hawgfest we caught most of the fish on Colorados. We put out a same of harness and the fish told us what to use. We stayed in the same small area all day. 2 cents.


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## blue dolphin

Tom yes the bigger the number the bigger the blade. Ive trolled double hatchets at 2.0mph and singles as slow as .8 One thing i also liked to add and Im sure Jim will agree having good electronics on board so you can cruise at 20 or so to find fish really helps alot. Once you find them getting the speed and style is the next step. Even if you are doing 1.0mph if your on fish and filling up the cooler thats all that matters expescially in a tourney lol. Gary


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## Jim Stedke

blue dolphin said:


> Tom yes the bigger the number the bigger the blade. Ive trolled double hatchets at 2.0mph and singles as slow as .8 One thing i also liked to add and Im sure Jim will agree having good electronics on board so you can cruise at 20 or so to find fish really helps alot. Once you find them getting the speed and style is the next step. Even if you are doing 1.0mph if your on fish and filling up the cooler thats all that matters expescially in a tourney lol. Gary



Good elctronics that allow you to mark and identify fish at higher speeds is something that will absolutly make you a better fisherman. 

Propper transducer mounting is the heart and soul of good fish finder opperation. If you can't read fish on plane, you're really giving yourself a handicap.

Travis was doing a fish finder seminar and pointed out an abvious truth, that I hadn't thought much about. It had to do with the fact the only the fish that are dead center of the cone mark at their true depth. Any that are off to the sides mark deeper than their actual depth. So if the majority of the marks are showing at 25' with the highest ones at 22', it's likely a fact that most are closer to 22'. So my old rule of thumb to fish a couple feet above the marks needs to be changed to depending on depth, you should likely be 5 - 8' above the marks. East of Cleveland with the fish marking at 55' that could be more like 10 -12' above the majority of the marks. 

A real ahha moment.


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## blue dolphin

Jim that is very interesting. Do you know if travis finding are based on a Analog finder or a digitial finder. I was just wondering when you said that that with all this new technolgy like hummingbird. Lowrance and raymarine iif there not more exact even on marks off the the side. Maybe you can give travis a ring a ding and see what he says i would be curious to hear the answer he gives. thanks Gary


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## Doubles

Jim-

Newer member here. Thanks for sharing all of this invaluable info. You and Gary are some truly great resources! My questions are more around techniques for specific situation; casting. By refusing to drive to the OBX this year we're doing a family vacation from July 4-11 on Kelly's. I hope to have a boat and under good conditions, plan to venture out around Kelly's but won't be equiped to troll. Are single blade Colorado harnesses with single hooks the way to go after the hatch or should I go with a double hook? double blade? Indiana Blade? I've fished Erie Dearie's but never see much on here about them. any advice? sorry for the long post, I just have the cabin fever bad and the snow's coming down quickly.


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## Cloud9

Jim Stedke said:


> Travis was doing a fish finder seminar and pointed out an abvious truth, that I hadn't thought much about. It had to do with the fact the only the fish that are dead center of the cone mark at their true depth. Any that are off to the sides mark deeper than their actual depth.


You and Mark touched on this subject at one of your seminars as well (perhaps after the Travis seminar) and I really hadn't thought about "side distortion" as well until you brought it up. Thats good stuff! 

As you and Gary have both mentioned, a major key to fishing seems to be more about getting the lure into their strike zone rather than color or speed, so the above statement has alot of value. I obviously do not speak this with knowledge so please correct as you see fit.

Onto my question, since EZ brought up the question of lure/technique based on location on water, my question has to do the the opposite side of the pond, the Western Basin. 

Once the heat comes about (June/July), are there any walleyes located in this region (perhaps without traveling to Canada )? If there are resident walleyes, any tips on technique that produce for this area during the warmer times?

Thanks in advance. Those seminars at the Boat Show and this thread are terrific info.


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## Jim Stedke

blue dolphin said:


> Jim that is very interesting. Do you know if travis finding are based on a Analog finder or a digitial finder. I was just wondering when you said that that with all this new technolgy like hummingbird. Lowrance and raymarine iif there not more exact even on marks off the the side. Maybe you can give travis a ring a ding and see what he says i would be curious to hear the answer he gives. thanks Gary


Gary, Analog or digital they both measure distance by means of echo returns, and neither has the ability to distinguish distance from the cone's center. 

All you can do is assume the stronger the return the nearer the center of the cone.

Kinda makes you wonder how much of the time we've been too deep, doesn't it. 

Also, to Mark Brumbaugh's credit, in the seminars that we did together, he invariablly made the statement "think higher first and if that doesn't work ....then go deeper". Words to take to heart.


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## blue dolphin

Great stuff Jim Thanks Gary


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## KaGee

In reply to Coud9:
We fished the same basic area north of B and C cans, approx 8-10 miles out of Turtle Creek with success from May up until early August last year. Trolled single #5 Colorado blade harnesses behind in-line planers and 2oz weights. Speed approx 1.5 by GPS.

Fish were always held up in small pods and marking the hits on the GPS was crucial. Almost always another pullback came in the area of a previous one.

Around mid-August fish went north, but there were plenty of fish caught in the shallows off of Crane Creek to Reno Beach... but it was one of those deals where you had to be there at the right time and place. 

Apologies to Jim for breaking in here.


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## Jim Stedke

Doubles said:


> Jim-
> 
> Newer member here. Thanks for sharing all of this invaluable info. You and Gary are some truly great resources! My questions are more around techniques for specific situation; casting. By refusing to drive to the OBX this year we're doing a family vacation from July 4-11 on Kelly's. I hope to have a boat and under good conditions, plan to venture out around Kelly's but won't be equiped to troll. Are single blade Colorado harnesses with single hooks the way to go after the hatch or should I go with a double hook? double blade? Indiana Blade? I've fished Erie Dearie's but never see much on here about them. any advice? sorry for the long post, I just have the cabin fever bad and the snow's coming down quickly.


 Doubles, The flippin harness, casting harness, weapon, are all effective single hook single blade harnesses around 16" long with a wt on one end and a light abardeen hook on the other, with 5 or 6 smallbeads and a small usually gold French or Indiana blade. One of the keys to making them work is to put only a small piece (1-1/2") of nighcrawler on the hook. This allows maximum float & flutter that is so attractive to the walleyes.

You might get some wt forward spinner to cast in the shallows in the early morning or evening. Tom's Teasers would be a good choice. Light ones like 3/8ths oz. Also after dark you can cast lures from shore. Windy points would be my first choice.


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## Doubles

Thanks for the great info. I'll be looking into to getting some Tom's Teaser's and the harnesses you mentioned. I assume if I have a color choice for the blades gold is a safe bet and maybe mix in some popular Erie colors of the moment (Chicken Wing, Eriedescent, etc.)


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## Jim Stedke

Cloud9 said:


> You and Mark touched on this subject at one of your seminars as well (perhaps after the Travis seminar) and I really hadn't thought about "side distortion" as well until you brought it up. Thats good stuff!
> 
> As you and Gary have both mentioned, a major key to fishing seems to be more about getting the lure into their strike zone rather than color or speed, so the above statement has alot of value. I obviously do not speak this with knowledge so please correct as you see fit.
> 
> Onto my question, since EZ brought up the question of lure/technique based on location on water, my question has to do the the opposite side of the pond, the Western Basin.
> 
> Once the heat comes about (June/July), are there any walleyes located in this region (perhaps without traveling to Canada )? If there are resident walleyes, any tips on technique that produce for this area during the warmer times?
> 
> Thanks in advance. Those seminars at the Boat Show and this thread are terrific info.


Cloud9, There are definatly walleyes to be caught in the western basin in June & July. The area North of Kellys Island and around Gull Island Shoal was good through july last year. Between Green & Rattle Snake Island holds fish. North of B can (firing range), and a 330 degree heading off Green Island out towards Middle Sister is a fishy location. I'd probably troll, but some drift & cast, and really it's more a matter of hunting the fish before you start fishing, you can catch them any way you want. 

The best presentation for any given day is determined by all the variables encountered that day. That's a vague answer but it's the best I've got.


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## Jim Stedke

KaGee, Absolutely no apology needed. Anyone can step in and answer any question and/or correct me when you have an opposing opinion.


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## Cloud9

Thanks for the responses! 

The question was vaque...I was simply "fishing" for any advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## lyman68

Jim I've got a 26' Glass lyman with a teak hand rail above the bump rail that leaves no room to mount rodholders. Have you ever seen rod holders tha i could mount on a vertical surface on the inside of the boat. Does cysco make anything like that? Thanks


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## K gonefishin

lyman68 said:


> Jim I've got a 26' Glass lyman with a teak hand rail above the bump rail that leaves no room to mount rodholders. Have you ever seen rod holders tha i could mount on a vertical surface on the inside of the boat. Does cysco make anything like that? Thanks


Got a picture? Cisco does make a variety of mounting applicatios, I'm very familair with all of them put up a pic and we can probably help you out.


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## Jim Stedke

Kgone is likely right. There's likely something made that will work, but if not some of the manufactures such as Cisco can make a custom mount. 

A word of caution, if you have to mount an adaptor on the inside, make sure it's tapered and has no sharp corners, or someone could get injured. 

Good luck and good fishin


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## wakina

Hi I use the spaghetti beads and I like them. Here are a couple of pic's. I like the translucent one as they seem to reflect more light. Hope this works!
Wakina
















Please have patience as I am just learning how to post pic.s and I need to learn how to resize them.
Derald
(Wakina)


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## KaGee

wakina said:


> Hi I use the spaghetti beads and I like them. Here are a couple of pic's. I like the translucent one as they seem to reflect more light. Hope this works!
> Wakina


Oh wow! The colors! Nope.... must be the cold medicine.  
Sorry dude, your pics didn't make it in here.


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## lyman68

Thanks fellas i think i can fit a flush mount rod holder and then put a triple holder in to that. I see george has two triples mounted just aft of the hard top on his thompson. i assume this would be a good location for my apllication?


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## Doubles

More questions about non-trolling techniques. Leeches seem to be popular for Eyes in inland lakes north of OH. Does anyone use them on a harness or simply fish them under a slip float in groups of suspended fish on Erie? Also, Goby based soft plastics seem to be getting a lot of attention for Bass and some other species but I never hear anything about them for Eyes. Do you think this may be a potential new direction in the future? Maybe try dropshotting with them when the eyes are holding close to the bottom?


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## Gju42486

lyman68 said:


> Thanks fellas i think i can fit a flush mount rod holder and then put a triple holder in to that. I see george has two triples mounted just aft of the hard top on his thompson. i assume this would be a good location for my apllication?


i have mine on a track. Makes it real nice. Im actually going to be adding another 2 rod holders per side this season for a total of 5 per side.


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## Jim Stedke

lyman68 said:


> Thanks fellas i think i can fit a flush mount rod holder and then put a triple holder in to that. I see george has two triples mounted just aft of the hard top on his thompson. i assume this would be a good location for my apllication?



lyman, Mast & ski bd rod holders should allow for some clearance between the tow line & the rods, or fishing lines can become wrapped around the tow line. If you're going to run Dipsys, those holders should be as far to the stern as possible and still allow easy rod removal.

If you intend to fish 4 guys (8 lines) a quad holder at the rear of the cockpit is about as foolproof as you can get. 

If I've missed your anticipated presentations, let us know what they are.


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## Jim Stedke

Dbls, Innovative tactics & techniques seem off the wall until someone is successful using them. The western basin is full of non-target species that might be a nuisance.

Good luck & let us know how it goes.


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## Doubles

Thanks for the reply. I'll report back if I have any success this Sumeer although I figured the sheepies may eat up the leeches given the chance. Sorry for all of the questions, new to the site and tying to get started a little on Erie this year. I dug up the thread from last year so it put some questions in my head.

Casting cranks- does anyone? I know the RRs are very popular for trolling but the 400 series and the deep little ripper seem like 'castable' cranks as well.
Thanks again for all of the great information.


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## Workdog

Jim Stedke said:


> Good elctronics that allow you to mark and identify fish at higher speeds is something that will absolutly make you a better fisherman.
> 
> Propper transducer mounting is the heart and soul of good fish finder opperation. If you can't read fish on plane, you're really giving yourself a handicap.


Can we go back to this one for a moment? I know Kgone and Gary run Lowrances; is there a big difference in ability to mark fish on plane between something like an LCX-37 or 38C analog unit and a broadband high definition unit? I'm having a hard time wanting an HDS-7 with just a 6.4" screen versus a 37 (8.4" screen) for about the same price. 

Also, KGone (and others): With your 38C HD, on Lake Erie, which chart program do you use most. The Nauticpath, or a combination of the one's on the harddrive, and why? Thanks.


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## Jim Stedke

Dbls, Most of the crank casters do it at night on the reefs. It can be done during the day but so much time is waisted being too close to the boat or casting that trolling would be much more efficient. Unless you find them up on top of a reef or on a point.


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## ezbite

wakina, those look sweet. i think the spagetti beads have a deeper, better color than the round beads. thanks for the picts, because you just sold me on em. love the hatchet too.


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## blue dolphin

I like the 8 inch screen if it were me the 10 is to big. as far as what map i use i like the HD nautapath it is a awesome map with no complaints. the broadband last year was the bomb and for what there selling the new ones for they are a steal. Hope this helps workdog. Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## reo

lyman68 said:


> Thanks fellas i think i can fit a flush mount rod holder and then put a triple holder in to that. I see george has two triples mounted just aft of the hard top on his thompson. i assume this would be a good location for my apllication?



Going from memories from a while back here but I am/was familiar with the teak rail that you speak of. Check out a Cisco base for a triple holder that can go under the teak so that half of the mounting screws can be installed on one side of the rail and the other half on the other. If I remember correctly you should still have enough room to install the triple. 

Hope this made sense


----------



## 2CatchEyes

Gary, when putting the crawler on your harnesses, do you leave the crawler full length or do you pinch it off behind the treble?


----------



## K gonefishin

2CatchEyes said:


> Gary, when putting the crawler on your harnesses, do you leave the crawler full length or do you pinch it off behind the treble?


The answer is the whole crawler Alex..LOL...the bigger, longer the juicier the better


----------



## blue dolphin

ditto Alex nothing better than a 6-8inch crawler hanging off the back. Gary


----------



## ezmarc

Doubles said:


> More questions about non-trolling techniques. Leeches seem to be popular for Eyes in inland lakes north of OH. Does anyone use them on a harness or simply fish them under a slip float in groups of suspended fish on Erie? Also, Goby based soft plastics seem to be getting a lot of attention for Bass and some other species but I never hear anything about them for Eyes. Do you think this may be a potential new direction in the future? Maybe try dropshotting with them when the eyes are holding close to the bottom?


Slowly drifting leeches are deadly on Erie eyes at times. I don't drift often anymore and it's always at a customers request if I do, but when i did, I always tried to have some with me if i could find good ones. My favorite technique was to use a dead stick with a whistler jig on a short dropper instead of a bottom bouncer or sinker and a harness behind that (3 way), while we casted weight forwards with a second rod. The jig pulled just as many or more than the harness would at times. This would work from May to July if you had bottom hugging fish.

A Propeller jig and a slow retrieve also worked pretty well at times and saved the day lots of times. Leeches don't seem to work well with double hooks or harnesses becasue they twist so much. They didn't work for me on suspended fish either and bobbers on Erie are really tricky to use because of currents and drifts.

The bass guys sometimes tear up the eyes on their drop shot rigs but I know of no one that targets eyes specifically with that method. I don't think I've ever cleaned a walleye that had a goby in it's belly but that doesn't mean that they won't eat them.


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## Gju42486

kevin/gary and the rest.....

Im assuming you guys keep a "stash" of worms on hand at any given time, im curious to know how you go about storing them and keeping the alive for periods of time.

If i was to buy say 10-15dz of worms to start the year, would just a styrofoam cooler in the fridge with some wal mart bedding be good? 

What do you use for food/nutrients, is cornmeal still the go to?


----------



## K gonefishin

I have a worm farm sort of thing made by Frabil and I use Fat N Sassy worm bedding and worm food, looks like cornmeal but it's not. I'm going to just start buying flats much cheaper and never have to stop at the bait store which as much as I crawler fish and how many I use it becomes a pain in the rear end expecially when I make the decision to go at night and there's not bait store on the way to the launch. I buy 100 packs of worms from Rodmakers or I buy 10-15 dozen at a time, I never have them long enough to have them die, if I don't plan on fishing I'll feed them and keep them in the worm farm thingy. Believe it or not 10 dozen worms won't even last me a weekend, flats are the way to go for me this year


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## Gju42486

i think i have to take you and gary out on my tanker so you two can get the worm juju on my boat.

heck, after this year- 10dz of worms would of lasted me 4 1/2 years.........im going to be following you alot this year---especially like i did last year in may off the cleveland area


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## blue dolphin

Lol george. I buy my worms at Rodamkers shop in the 100 bags they are perforated. they work great for putting in a soft coolor with ice packs to keep them cold. The ones i will use in the 20 minutes or so go in ice water to plump them up. the fat and sassy that Kevin talks about is the bomb its made by frabill and i know erie outfitters has it. The bags are nice also so you can just lay them in the fridge. Make sure you lay them flat. When my back allows i live in Hinckley and will catch my crawlers that are award winning crawlers. time to pass the torch to Nicholas. lol Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## Fishers of Men

Ya George, you are still young enough, get ya a head lamp and go crawl around on your hands and knees. You can get a lot on a good night. 
Really, you can "sour" your dirt with cornmeal. 
Spaghnum Moss will fatten and liven them up in the fridge big time. Better than buss bedding.
As far as food goes, a damp newspaper on top is all anyone needs. Keep 'em cool.


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## Imfowl55

just wondering how long you guys make your leaders? is there a rule of thumb length, or does it depend on what your trolling with, say jets and spoons, or jets and crawler harnesses, inline weights and harnesses? still trying to figure out all this trolling stuff. any info would be appreciated.


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## eyesman_01

Typically, as these guys taught me, I use a 6' Flourocarbon leader off jets and dipseys for harnesses or spoons, and I also add the leader at the end of my 30# Power Pro when pulling cranks. The leaders have a duolock snap at one end, and a good ball bearing duolock at the other. I put the ball bearing end toward the spoon or harness, and toward the mainline when pulling cranks. Hope this helps.


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## blue dolphin

A 6 ft snelled harness for inlines and snap weights. and a 10ft leader for dipsey and jet with harnesses i like this because it gives the harness more of a subtle action rather than a direct action. Spoons i would use a 6 ft because of the direct pull better action. Hope this helps Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## Guest

Gary what type of line do you run you inline weights on? Is it 10lbs fireline I can not remeber.


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## Imfowl55

thanks for the replys guys, one more thing, what pound test do you use for the leaders, my reels are spooled with 10# test.


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## Jim Stedke

My leaders for Dipsys & Jets are 25# flourcarbon. I believe Gary makes his long harnesses out of 17 or 20# XT, to reduce net breakage.


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## blue dolphin

Hey guys sorry for the late response I run 20lb seaguar flouro for both the leader and the Inline harness like Jim said this is best for durability and stealth. gary


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## ezbite

i like to use 25# floro leaders off bula and geneva. the reason...silver bullets. strangely enough, we didnt really get into them in 08' like we did in 07'


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## Jim Stedke

To be crystal clear when I saw flourocarbon, I mean Seaguar or Pline pure flourocarbon leader material that comes in 25 meter spools for around $9.00.
It's stiff and tuff as nails. And you'd never think of filling a spool with it. 

Anything that come in spools large enough to fill a reel is not the same, and will not give you the durability and strength of this stuff.

I know there's cheaper 100&#37; flourocarbon line out there. But I'm stickin with the leader material. Just make sure you wet it well when tieing knots.


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## seahawk

Hey Jim: what size snaps, swivels & snap swivels do you use for running dipseys, jets, boards, inlines with meat, etc. For the basic set for a dipsey: a big (size?) snap swivel attached to the dipsey, then what kind/size from the release to the leader and what size snap or snap swivel on the lure end? Do you tie on directly to the ones that come on the dipseys, upgrade them, or what? Does it matter between running cranks or spoons? What do you use swivels alone for? I think workdog almost answered this for me last summer, but would sure like to hear your thoughts, as I had a lot of line twisting going on. Thanks! seahawk


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## Jim Stedke

Seahawk, I use a large snap to attach Dipsys to the main line.

On Jets I take the snap off and use a connector link (from Netcraft) that make tuning the Jet easier. 

For cranks I use a size 2 Crosslock round bottom snap only 

Leaders the same snap only as above on one end and a Sampo balbearing sanp swivel on the other end. (for spoons & stickbaits) 

Leaders for harnesses I use a ballbearing snap swivel on both ends, or have a ball bearing swivel only on the harness.

If line twist is a problem for you, put a sampo swivel only 4' ahead of the snap, and it will help significantly. 

Line twist can come from an untuned lure, dragging a trash fish, or running too fast for the lure. 

Hope this helps, good luck.


----------



## seahawk

When you let line out on dipsys and jets, do you use the clutch, the drag or your thumb to keep the right amount of pressure on them?

Also from my other questions are the snap swivels and swivels the same #2 size as the snaps?


----------



## Jim Stedke

Snap swivels are Sampo #2 tournament or #2 coastlock (both rated at 45# but fairly small).

Setting Dipsys for beginers I'd suggest using the drag to set them out slow. 
As you gain experience using the klicker (to monitor speed) and the thumb (to provide drag) will be faster. 

Jets float at rest and are not an issue when being set. You can pretty much set them as fast as you want by using the clutch.


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## lyman68

blue dolphin said:


> Hey guys sorry for the late response I run 20lb seaguar flouro for both the leader and the Inline harness like Jim said this is best for durability and stealth. gary


Gary Are you saying you use seaguar flouro to tie your harnesses?


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## blue dolphin

yes lyman that is correct. 20lb seaguar carbon pro works great. Good luck Gary


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## lyman68

blue dolphin said:


> yes lyman that is correct. 20lb seaguar carbon pro works great. Good luck Gary


Gary i tried ten pound floro last year and had a couple of the snells come loose. I was'nt sure if it was novice tying or the floro. i assume you use a treble for your bottom hook and if so what knot do you like for the treble?Jim and anyone else please chime in. Matt


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## blue dolphin

Hey Lyman i donot use a knot just snell both hooks. are you bringing the tag end back through the hole once you do the wraps? ten pound is to light for trolling on erie switch to 20 lb ive experimented with alot of differents weights and this seems to be the best. I do use a treble on the bottom a # 6 gomakatsu ewg red and the front hook a # 2 goma ocutpus red. Hope this helps Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## Cloud9

Jim and others:

A few questions I developed after reading thru the 13 pages of last years online seminar. 

Before the questions, let me thank you again as the information in that thread and this one; they are fantastic. I know it takes time and effort to answer all these questions, it is apperciated.

What are the "rules" to determine depth using crawler harnesses when drift fishing? Assuming approximately a 1.0mph drift, what weight would I need to use the "10 feet drop per 1 sec" count? Is there a percision drifting I can purchase? 

And if it not a problem, questions regarding jigging:

Do you tip your jig with a minnow? If so, how? Thru head?...tail?..etc.

Do you use leaders for jigs? What is the difference or when do you use a hair jig vs bucktail jig? I've read people having success with both types.

Sorry for all the questions, hope I'm not asking too many. There is so much to learn about these fish. 

Jason


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## lyman68

Thanks gary. Yes i was properly tying the snell. I was trying the 10# harnesses drifting. I was using mono ,and was attempting to be more stealthy. I'll switch too the 20#. thanks again


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## blue dolphin

Cloud on a 1 ounce inline at 1mph what ever you lead length is it will be half of that example if you let out 30ft of line before you clip on the board then you depth would be 15 ft. Another thing keel weights that bass pro make are in the big precision trolling book and go from 1-3 ounces and have the dive curves in there. Please keep in mind though that this dive curve is based on 1.5 miles an hour so if you going faster it would be higher and slower it would be deeper so a little work on your part will have to be done on depth if your not going 1.5 As far as jigging i wont answer because i suck at jigging lol Im sure Jim can get ya dialed in on that ? hope this helps gary zart blue dolphin


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## moondog5814

Two questions:
1. What type of G.P.S. unit would you recommend? Are handheld units worth buying? My buddy and I seem lost without being able to get to the co-ordinates that many of you guys post.
2. What type of clevises do you recommend for tying trolling harnesses? I bought wire clevises from Rodmakers and they seemed to cut through the line. Tried those new type from R&R and had problems with those where the blade cut through the line. Bobinstow hooked my buddy up with some folded ones late in the season....haven't used them yet. I haven't tried the plastic quick-change ones yet.


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## ezbite

does anyone use rattle beads on their harnesses? what about those blades with the rattle in them, rip off or worth the cash?


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## Hetfieldinn

ezbite said:


> does anyone use rattle beads on their harnesses? what about those blades with the rattle in them, rip off or worth the cash?


I have rattle beads on some of my harnesses, and I've caught plenty of fish using them, but I can't honestly say that there were days when the fish preferred the rattle beads, and that they out-fished the harnesses without them.


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## blue dolphin

I use rattles alot the only problem is they stopped making the 6mm and they just have the 8mm not sure yet if those will be too big. As far as clevises go the black ones with the nipple are the ones to get Rodmakers has them so does erie outfitters. Gps i would recommend getting a dash mount so you can have your hands free on the boat and also with chartplotter capabilties so you can go over where youve caught fish. Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## Jim Stedke

Hooking minnows on jigs, for large shiners I go in throught the houth & out the top of the head. For smaller minnows from under the chin to out the top of the head. The idea is the hook them through some tuff area where the hook will hold well. 

Sorry for the delay, we were out of town.

Saw robins in Wapak & Columbus... come on Spring!


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## Gju42486

ezbite said:


> does anyone use rattle beads on their harnesses? what about those blades with the rattle in them, rip off or worth the cash?


its ALL about the rattle and glo beads


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## ezbite

ok, now that glow beads have raised their ugly head...yes, no or in moderation?


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## Jim Stedke

EZ, I believe glow is only good when it's almost dead. And even then, I only want a small amount (like 1 or 2 beads at the most). Too much glow is very unnatural, and I think more likely to scare than attract.

I have serious doubts that the action of a harness is ever violent enought to get a tick out of the rattle beads, but if they give you confidence ... go for it (& I have used them with success). 

That's my take, even though it's likely worth exactly what you paid for it ...(zero). LOL

I wouldn't argue with anyone who believes they are either or both very important, but I just don't think they are.


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## blue dolphin

Tom havent used them yet but have a bunch im tying up that i got form R&R i cant believe there not going to be awesome. Gary


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## rippin lip

have not used floating arm bottom bouncers is this the same concept as using no arm bouncers with a 3-way swivel?, getting ready for a b/b order and need your opinions on fixed arm or floating for erie applications.


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## Gju42486

blue dolphin said:


> Tom havent used them yet but have a bunch im tying up that i got form R&R i cant believe there not going to be awesome. Gary


yepp dave sent me a bag as well---WOW. Those torpedo shaped beads are the chit.

I made about 10 harnesses up with all glo beads---just for kicks, they may be ok in real dark muddy water- who knows.

I did a glo round, a glo torpedo, glo round, glo torpedo, glo round----it actually looks like a good pattern, to me but what the hell do i know :S


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## WFD1369

jim or gary. just learning how to tie my own harnesses and was using 30lb berkley fireline. question is how long do you make your harnesses when running them off dipseys vs bottom bouncers, and do you prefer flourocarbon vs fireline. thanks for any answers guys, I'm new to the game.


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## blue dolphin

WFD i use 20lb seaguar flouro for my bottom bouncers inlines and snap weights. Made about 6 ft long snelled with a treble gomakatsu ewg # 6 red hook as your trailer and a # 2 red octupus Goma for single for your front.. For a Dipsey i tie a 6 to 8 inch harness made out of 30lb fireline smoke with same hooks which then attaches to a 10ft 20lb flouro leader. 2 seperate harness for different appliacations. Good luck Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


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## Jim Stedke

WFD, My Dipsy harnesses are tied on 25# flourocarbon leader material. They are +/- 10" long & I use a std. 6' Dipsy/Jet leader of the same mtl. 

I am in line w/Gary on the longer harnesses for slower presentations.

Hope this helps, and good luck.


----------



## Bob Why

Jim, Really enjoy these winter classes you give on here. Thought that I would chime in here and try to get some more going. Can you explain how you start the year and where, when and if you move to a different part of the western basin? What I'm asking is do you start out jig fishing the reefs and then go to trolling and when do you move from the reefs to where? And do you move east along the lake with the warmer water.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Bob, That's a dandy!

I start trolling at ice out. I'm a sucker for big fish and if you wanted me to go jiggin with you, I'd probably go, but about the 3rd fish, I'd start looking over towards D can or out in the direction of B can, and wondering what was going on in those areas. 

The reef jig bite is really not limited to the reefs. Many if not most fishermen coming out of Green Cove stop in 12 - 18' of water just off shore, and drift dragging their jigs or blades just off the bottom. The trick is to keep nicking the bottom without allowing the lure to drag on the bottom.

In Mark Brumbaugh's seminars he suggested starting on the windy side of the reef on the steepest slopes, or choosing a drift line that puts you into the back of cups, or along slopes from points to cups. 

Where you really want to be is on the down current side of the reef. If the wind has been in it's present direction for over 24 hrs, the up wind side should be the down current side, as the wind blown water will establish currents that run opposite the direction of the wind. If the wind has switched within the last 24hrs, the current will likely still be running oppposite the previous wind's direction. And finding the the active fish may be more challenging. 

When searching a reef for fish don't run the big motor, but use fishing passes, or the electric motor to keep from spooking fish.

All that for what I don't want to do. (but it is a blast when they're on).

Trolling in the deeper water (23 - 28') over soft bottom, for fish that are in the top 12' of the water column, is where I'd most likely be. Using Reef Runners, Rip Sticks, dp& shallow Rouges,& dp & shallow Husky Jerks. Those are all the lures I take. Renowskis also have been used w/ success. My 1st lure out will be a Dp gold Rouge (which is a coppery color) unless the water is dirty (less than 18" visability) then it would be a Rip Stick mud minnow. The dp Rouge would be set from 40 - 80' back depending on where the fish are marking, and the Rip 65 - 110' back. Speed 1.7 - 2.3, 12# mono on one side & 10/4 Fireline on the other. And see what the fish say. Many days I run the both lines all day. But other days, they show a distinct preferrance. 

So far as following the fish, I do sorta, but it usually is more out north and then east, but the reef area produces fish up through May and beyond. We come out of West Harbor quite a bit, and the Reefs go away for us when there are fish closer.

Thanks for the question & good luck.


----------



## ezbite

could someone clairify the way walleye see colors, what do they see the best to the worst. i assume red and orange are right at the top, but what are the bottom ones. thanks..


lets say in clear water. i know florescents are best in muddy stuff.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Years ago they said walleyes could only see oranges & greens. I'm not sure what the latest scientific research says, but I've always wished that we could determine how the fact that the walleyes are seeing colors in NOT perfectly clear water, and the color of that water along with quite limited available light has to have a marked effect on what they actually see. 

You know I don't place huge importance on color, but I'm interested in seeing what others have to say. 

Let me say this about color, when color is crutial (maybe 1 day in 10) I think that the only thing you need to worry about is having some of that color (whatever it is) on your lure. Maybe that's why I like bubble gum, huckleberry, eriedescent, cheap sunglasses and many of the multicolored lures. (shotgun approach to color). 

Come on Spring!


----------



## Alaskan

Jim: When you venture out on these "ice out" trips, do you find that first light, similar to ice fishing and sometimes jig fishing, can be the hot bite for the day? ( I realize the considerations for going out early AM when floating ice can still be present. ) Or, is it better once the sun is up? 




Jim Stedke said:


> Bob, That's a dandy!
> 
> I start trolling at ice out. I'm a sucker for big fish and if you wanted me to go jiggin with you, I'd probably go, but about the 3rd fish, I'd start looking over towards D can or out in the direction of B can, and wondering what was going on in those areas.
> 
> The reef jig bite is really not limited to the reefs. Many if not most fishermen coming out of Green Cove stop in 12 - 18' of water just off shore, and drift dragging their jigs or blades just off the bottom. The trick is to keep nicking the bottom without allowing the lure to drag on the bottom.
> 
> In Mark Brumbaugh's seminars he suggested starting on the windy side of the reef on the steepest slopes, or choosing a drift line that puts you into the back of cups, or along slopes from points to cups.
> 
> Where you really want to be is on the down current side of the reef. If the wind has been in it's present direction for over 24 hrs, the up wind side should be the down current side, as the wind blown water will establish currents that run opposite the direction of the wind. If the wind has switched within the last 24hrs, the current will likely still be running oppposite the previous wind's direction. And finding the the active fish may be more challenging.
> 
> When searching a reef for fish don't run the big motor, but use fishing passes, or the electric motor to keep from spooking fish.
> 
> All that for what I don't want to do. (but it is a blast when they're on).
> 
> Trolling in the deeper water (23 - 28') over soft bottom, for fish that are in the top 12' of the water column, is where I'd most likely be. Using Reef Runners, Rip Sticks, dp& shallow Rouges,& dp & shallow Husky Jerks. Those are all the lures I take. Renowskis also have been used w/ success. My 1st lure out will be a Dp gold Rouge (which is a coppery color) unless the water is dirty (less than 18" visability) then it would be a Rip Stick mud minnow. The dp Rouge would be set from 40 - 80' back depending on where the fish are marking, and the Rip 65 - 110' back. Speed 1.7 - 2.3, 12# mono on one side & 10/4 Fireline on the other. And see what the fish say. Many days I run the both lines all day. But other days, they show a distinct preferrance.
> 
> So far as following the fish, I do sorta, but it usually is more out north and then east, but the reef area produces fish up through May and beyond. We come out of West Harbor quite a bit, and the Reefs go away for us when there are fish closer.
> 
> Thanks for the question & good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Alaskan, The sun has a positive effect on these high fish so 10 - 3 is likely to be better (especially on sunny days). 

If you're a jig fsherman, look for concentrated deep marks early over soft bottom, and jig for them. A good spot is south & a smidge west of Green. There a small area of slightly deeper water there that is a good area to jig for big females early.

Hope this helps, & good luck.


----------



## wakina

I don't run green colors very often as it seems that sheeps like them much better than the eyes do. The fact is, if the day is slow and I have kids on board, I will intentionally run geens and chartruse colors on 2 lines as they almost always pick up sheeps and that helps keep the young ones interested on fishing and not whining. In contrast I do run a U-20 flat fish in the Frog Color in the early spring as the eyes seem to like it very much and it fits in very well with a harness program as they fish very well at lower speeds. When I was a kid in the (1950's) about the only colors that were fished were the orange, red/white and green colors. Please note that at that time if you saw any more than three to five other boats on Niagra Reef it was considered over-crowded ( Less boats/fishermen less chance for different colors). The availability of different colors was very slim to non-existent as most tackle shops only carried few if any lures of choice let alone different colors, that is why I think the orange and green theory from years back came into play as they were the predominate colors carried by the local bait shops in the Port Clinton area in the mid to late 1950's. (Just my opinion.)

Derald


----------



## Spaniel235

My dad, who is 90, and has always fished for walleyes, and I continue to have the same discussions now. I hear alot of stories about flatfish and shad raps as his lures of choice over the last 50 years-except for the 60's and early 70s. The debate comes in when we start to discuss colors, leader length, use of weights, water clarity, and how much the lake has changed over the last 20 years.


----------



## ShutUpNFish

This year will be the first year for me to try dragging bags to slow down the troll. The year before last, was fine since we had many "true" 2 feet or less days, however last season seemed to be a bear according to the weather. It was often tough to keep my troll below 2.5 GPS.....So, this winter, I purchased 2 36" bags for the Trophy and plan on using them quite a bit. I would appreciate any advice with set-up, how-to, tricks on trolling with them, etc. etc. I figured I'd give this a try before having to purchase a kicker....LETS PRAY THESE GAS PRICES STAY AS THEY ARE!!!

Thanks guys...And the best to you all for the '09 season! Be safe out there!


----------



## Jim Stedke

You'll find that boat control is easier when you run both bags (1 on each side). With the boat out of the water rig the bags so that the rear of the bags is at or close to the stern of the boat. Run the forward line to the spring line cleat (in the area of the windshield), and attach a rear line that is long enough to allow the bag to be full submersed, but short enough to keep it out of the props. This line attaches to the boat at the rear cleat. 

When you want to pull the bag, go to the rear line and pull it. This empties the bag and makes pulling it easy.

Ours are left in place and hang inside the gunnel, causing no problems. 

Hope this helps and good luck.


----------



## Draggin' Fish

Jim, at the mini-fishing college at the boat show, your brother said that last season he experienced much better success when trolling crankbaits with mono when compared to using braided line. Do you think this was because of mono's stretch? Also, when running mono, do you use a fluorocarbon leader or just connect directly to the mono?


----------



## Jim Stedke

Draggin' Fish said:


> Jim, at the mini-fishing college at the boat show, your brother said that last season he experienced much better success when trolling crankbaits with mono when compared to using braided line. Do you think this was because of mono's stretch? Also, when running mono, do you use a fluorocarbon leader or just connect directly to the mono?



It has to do with the mono's stretch. Rich explains it like this :
Mono stretches from 25-30 %. Even the pull of the lure inparts some stretch into the mono. When a curious following walleye comes up behind the mono lure and nudges it or pushes on it, the stretch in the line allows the wobble of the lure to continue in a natural way. 

When the same walleye nudges or pushes on a superbraid lure, the lack of stretch causes the lure stop wobbleing and perhaps flip over and in general act very unnaturally, causing the fish to lose interest.

Mark Brumbaugh also commented on his belief that mono will often get you more hook-ups when running harnesses.

We never use leaders when running cranks. A simple cross-lok round bottom snap about 5/8ths of an inch, and a tuned lure is all you need.

Hope this helps, Good luck.


----------



## Bob Why

Jim, I know that you have covered about everything in the past 2 years of doing this. But I would think that some of the newbies would have more questions. I've been racking my brain trying to think of a question to keep this thing going. Really don't want to discuss the color combinations again. So how about what baits to use when. You know deep divers, shallow divers, spoons, harnesses, etc. And maybe how you fish them. Shortest, longest distance behind the boards, behind dipsys, in-line weights, whatever.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Bob, I start w/ large lures, shallow & deep and utilze the longer drop lengths for the shallows, (which go on outside boards) to make clearing lines easier. 

When water temps get over 45, harnesses can be used (actualy some use them way ealier... but speeds need to be so slow that I can't get into it).

Early June is usually when we get serious about spoons behind Dipsys, starting with small ones, but when the small white perch get too bad we go to larger spoons or more often back to cranks. 

We have gone more to wt. assisted cranks the last couple years, and the 03 fish are now plenty big enough to like them. Rich on his charters never ran a Jet last year. (and I don't think he has ever run a harness). But remember the charters run lots of lines and speeds under 1.7 are not to their liking. 

Wt assisted cranks can be tanglers, and to minimize the tangles we put the same wt. on all lines on each side ie. 1 oz on the port lines & 1-1/2 oz on the starboard, and run drop lengths that don't vary more than 20'. We also have been run the wts only 6 -8' ahead of the lures. With no ill effects. 

On those days when Pooh & Thumper are sorting through 150 white bass off their Jet & Stinger lines, Rich may catch 5 or 6 off cranks and they are all big ones.

Additionally the crank caught fish are usually 1/2 - 3/4 pounds heavier per fish.

I'm tempted to discuss shallow lures behind Dipsys for summer fish, but will save that until someone expresses an interest.

Thanks for the question Bob, and good luck.


----------



## Spaniel235

Jim,
Don't stop now....I've used in-lines in front of cranks, but never cranks with a dipsey. What would be your thoughts on this? Thanks for all your work with this site and thread.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Spaniel235 said:


> Jim,
> Don't stop now....I've used in-lines in front of cranks, but never cranks with a dipsey. What would be your thoughts on this? Thanks for all your work with this site and thread.


 Spaniel, In the summer and into the fall when the fish are deep, shallow running lures (minnow baits / stick baits) can be run behind Dipsys with std leaders (6'). 

The thing that the fisherman needs to be aware of, is the fact that these lures cause more drag (resistance) than the usual spoon. Because of this we only run them on the down Dipsys (set at 1 or 2) in our spread of 4 (set at 1, 2, 3 & 4), and around 12 - 15% more line must be let out to get the Dipsy back down to the depth it was at with the spoon.

This is a big fish presentation, and this rod won't go off very often, but when it does .... you'll like it.

Deep diving lures pull too hard on the rear of the Dipsy causing it to roll over and come to the surface.


----------



## Gju42486

Jim Stedke said:


> Spaniel, In the summer and into the fall when the fish are deep, shallow running lures (minnow baits / stick baits) can be run behind Dipsys with std leaders (6').
> 
> The thing that the fisherman needs to be aware of, is the fact that these lures cause more drag (resistance) than the usual spoon. Because of this we only run them on the down Dipsys (set at 1 or 2) in our spread of 4 (set at 1, 2, 3 & 4), and around 12 - 15% more line must be let out to get the Dipsy back down to the depth it was at with the spoon.
> 
> This is a big fish presentation, and this rod won't go off very often, but when it does .... you'll like it.
> 
> Deep diving lures pull too hard on the rear of the Dipsy causing it to roll over and come to the surface.




i plead the 5th on this one......sticks and dipsies dont pull fish out of Geneva.....

Just ask, ezbite-workdog,toxic,wallydog,rik, topstroke and num1fire


----------



## Jim Stedke

Gju42486 said:


> i plead the 5th on this one......sticks and dipsies dont pull fish out of Geneva.....
> 
> Just ask, ezbite-workdog,toxic,wallydog,rik, topstroke and num1fire


I'll take that bet. My quess is they're not increasing drop lengths enough. The fish we had at the show come from this technique. 

Like I said the rod won't fire often.... but


----------



## Lightman

Boy that one went sailing over his head George...lol.

Thanks for a great thread, lots of advanced info I don't yet fully understand


----------



## Fishers of Men

Gju42486 said:


> i plead the 5th on this one......sticks and dipsies dont pull fish out of Geneva.....
> 
> Just ask, ezbite-workdog,toxic,wallydog,rik, topstroke and num1fire


Well, the stinger guys don't count George. Why disrupt the thread, must be a CG authority issue...


----------



## Jim Stedke

If I missed something and/or over-reacted, sorry.

Lightman, If you don't understand fully .... ask away/


----------



## ezbite

Jim Stedke said:


> If I missed something and/or over-reacted, sorry.


you didnt miss anything jim. george was trying to be funny(he knows hes not, but he tries) we pulled many, many big fish last year on shallow cranks behind #1 dipsys in his boat from vermilion to geneva and all year long, i mean a lot. id say 80% of our biggest fish came from this presentation.


----------



## Gju42486

Jim Stedke said:


> If I missed something and/or over-reacted, sorry.


jim not at all, like ezbite said we used this technique alot last year and it produces for sure, like you say.

I got to work on my "funnies" i guess....they seem to be slipping lately 

Once the perch and walleye start getting together near the bottom of the lake and you cant keep spoons in without catching a limit of perch trolling......its time to bust out the stickbaits :B


----------



## Jim Stedke

Good deal. Glad to have the varification.


----------



## Tommybouy

Good Morning!

I dont use jets and fish the WB all year. I'm interested in adding them as a change up from cranks & crawlers occasionally. Since the eye's are so high in the water column my question is if you could share some insight on the bullets below for pulling jets in the WB? 

* What size would you run? ( I hear Jet 10's will run as deep as a Jet 30?)
* What are viable speed ranges when pulling jets?
* I hear they may cross lines easily when trolling; any do's & dont's?

I'm not asking for the bible on jets nor do I want to consume much time. Any insight will be appreciated. Thank you in advance!


----------



## Bob Why

George, What are you doing to ezbite? He only pulls Michigan Stingers. And maybe now a
bass bait once in awhile.


----------



## sea oxx

First of all, I want to thank everyone for all your info, it takes so much frustration out of learning trolling techniques!! Last year was our first shot at trolling for my son and me. We started with dipsies and spoons trying to keep it simple; we were awesome at catching sheephead and perch. We run out of West Harbor and fish around the Islands. I was wondering If anyone had any tips on what would work best behind the dipsies when the water warms up in July and August?


----------



## blue dolphin

Harnesses Harnesses and more harnesses. Learn how to troll them and you will go through 50 60 or even 70 fish in a day of C&R trolling 4 rods. especially east and north of kelleys from june on. You will have a blast. You will still catch junk fish but its worth the price when your catching that many walleye. Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## sea oxx

All right man. Thats what we'll work on.If I ever boated that many fish My son would think I was a god!! Thanks alot.
Oh yeah, on rough days do the drift bags have any negative effects as far as taking on more water than with out the bags? I have a 23' cc outboard with an open transom. Thanks Again


----------



## Gju42486

Bob Why said:


> George, What are you doing to ezbite? He only pulls Michigan Stingers. And maybe now a
> bass bait once in awhile.


hes starting to come to reality slowly bob---it just takes some time to teach that old dog new tricks


----------



## sea oxx

Gary are you going to be having anymore harness tying classes before spring?I really wanted to get to the boat show but couldnt make it.


----------



## BMS

do any of you add floats to your harness set ups, im working on tying some for drifting and would like some opinions on if they help? thanks for all the great info! finally got a boat last year and its great to be hooked again.


----------



## rippin lip

rippin lip said:


> have not used floating arm bottom bouncers is this the same concept as using no arm bouncers with a 3-way swivel?, getting ready for a b/b order and need your opinions on fixed arm or floating for erie applications.


jim - gary - kgone - anyone?? thanks bob


----------



## Jim Stedke

rippin lip said:


> have not used floating arm bottom bouncers is this the same concept as using no arm bouncers with a 3-way swivel?, getting ready for a b/b order and need your opinions on fixed arm or floating for erie applications.


 I'm going to let Gary and the harness guys answer that one. But to me on Erie a float only cancels out part of the wt of the harness, and would be counterproductive.

Good luck & sorry we skipped over you.


----------



## Buckeye Ron

Deep diving lures pull too hard on the rear of the Dipsy causing it to roll over and come to the surface.[/QUOTE

Jim,
What if you have a deep diver behind a jet ?
Thanks,
Ron


----------



## Shortdrift

I have tried many different methods for drifting a harness both close to the bottom and still have the ability to fish throughout the water column without a major change in rigging.
The first thing on my line is a spinner blade clevis, the type that allows for blade changing. The next item is a tight fitting rubber bobber stop followed by a DuoLok snap. Attach a weighted wire trolling sinker or a short length of mono with a sinker to the spinner blade clevis and whatever harness (or even a shallow crank bait) to the snap. The rubber bobber stop allows you to adjust the length of the leader depending on the rate of drift and water condition. Sometimes it is best to drag the sinker on the bottom with a short lead or to raise the weight off the bottom and lengthen the leader. Weight is easily changed through the use of the blade clevis.
I plan to do more drifting this year as well as slow trolling along the bottom and this rig gives me an flexible approach.


----------



## Gju42486

Buckeye Ron said:


> Deep diving lures pull too hard on the rear of the Dipsy causing it to roll over and come to the surface.[/QUOTE
> 
> Jim,
> What if you have a deep diver behind a jet ?
> Thanks,
> Ron


my experiences are the same as a dipsy,it causes the jet to flip and run awkward.

Heres my take on it- if you tried to run a deep diver off a jet or dipsy, your really not gaining anything. The idea is that the JET or DIPSY should do all the diving. If your running a 6ft leader, ideally- the deep diver really CANT dive any deeper than 6 ft.

I would rather let the jet and dipsy do the work and just follow it up with a shallow stickbait, harness, or spoon


----------



## Jim Stedke

Floats for a drifting harnesses would reduce the flutter that is crutial to their success. If your drift is so slow that you need floats to keep the harness up off the bottom, I doubt you'll do very good.

Good luck & come on Spring.


----------



## Cloud9

Shortdrift said:


> I have tried many different methods for drifting a harness both close to the bottom and still have the ability to fish throughout the water column without a major change in rigging.
> The first thing on my line is a spinner blade clevis, the type that allows for blade changing. The next item is a tight fitting rubber bobber stop followed by a DuoLok snap. Attach a weighted wire trolling sinker or a short length of mono with a sinker to the spinner blade clevis and whatever harness (or even a shallow crank bait) to the snap. The rubber bobber stop allows you to adjust the length of the leader depending on the rate of drift and water condition. Sometimes it is best to drag the sinker on the bottom with a short lead or to raise the weight off the bottom and lengthen the leader. Weight is easily changed through the use of the blade clevis.
> I plan to do more drifting this year as well as slow trolling along the bottom and this rig gives me an flexible approach.



Hey Shortdrift, is there any chance you have a picture of this setup?


----------



## Jim Stedke

Tommybouy said:


> Good Morning!
> 
> I dont use jets and fish the WB all year. I'm interested in adding them as a change up from cranks & crawlers occasionally. Since the eye's are so high in the water column my question is if you could share some insight on the bullets below for pulling jets in the WB?
> 
> * What size would you run? ( I hear Jet 10's will run as deep as a Jet 30?)
> * What are viable speed ranges when pulling jets?
> * I hear they may cross lines easily when trolling; any do's & dont's?
> 
> I'm not asking for the bible on jets nor do I want to consume much time. Any insight will be appreciated. Thank you in advance!



Tommy, Most end up liking the 30s because they have a wt in the floatation chamber that helps them stay flipped over when reeling in a fish.

Speed effects Jets the least of all diving planes, 1.3 - 3 mph. Because they float at rest slower = higher & faster = deeper but over time with surges the depth diference is not large.

They can cause cross under tangles, but a hesitation of 20 seconds and /or an 20 degree turn away from the hooked fish will minimize them. Tuning the Jets will help also as they don't always want to track straight.

They are fish catchers, and fairly fool proof.

Good luck.


----------



## blue dolphin

Sorry guys i was a the cavs game all afternoon watching them lose lol. Rippin lip i have no experience with floating arm B&B Using floats on the main line in my opinion are not necessary on Erie unless your fishing tons of structure. A regular harness and B&B will do wonders for ya . Ox if you run the bags off the sides you should be ok with your transom if you run it off the back you could take on some depending how rough it was . I am doing a seminar tonight actually the address is on one of the threads its in Akron. If not I may be doing one more in February i will keep ya posted. Thanks Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## Jim Stedke

Buckeye Ron said:


> Deep diving lures pull too hard on the rear of the Dipsy causing it to roll over and come to the surface.[/QUOTE
> 
> Jim,
> What if you have a deep diver behind a jet ?
> Thanks,
> Ron



Ron, Same thing happens. Dipsy & Jets can be used w/ spoons, harnesses, & shallow diving lures only. Sorry for the delay, we were out of town.

good luck


----------



## Shortdrift

Cloud9 said:


> Hey Shortdrift, is there any chance you have a picture of this setup?


Sorry, no picture but just put it together in the order described. Clevis, stop, snap. The rubber bobber stops are available for variuos pound test lines like 6to 10# test. If you are using 12# main line then use the 6 to 10. If you use 8# main, go to the next smaller stop.


----------



## K gonefishin

rippin lip said:


> jim - gary - kgone - anyone?? thanks bob


I use fixed arm, no reason to use a floating arm. Bottombouncers.com has both styles I've talked to him about the difference in presentation, not much just preference suppose to prevent tangleing but I personally don't see how it makes much difference. 

Moral of the story, buy fixed arm and call it a day.


----------



## BFG

Jim,

You used to post on Great Lakes Angler's website quite often, and I greatly enjoyed your posts there. Do you still talk to Dave Mull?

Just wondering...the walleye component of that site has virtually died.


----------



## Jim Stedke

BFG said:


> Jim,
> 
> You used to post on Great Lakes Angler's website quite often, and I greatly enjoyed your posts there. Do you still talk to Dave Mull?
> 
> Just wondering...the walleye component of that site has virtually died.


 Yes, Dave calls every now & then. I get the feeling he's scrambling to keep the magazine's head above water. I drop by every the site once in a while , but not all that often. I'll post a reply if it's called for, but I don't post anywhere as much as I used to. (except maybe here).

60 here tomorrow, that'll make the old rod tip wiggle.

Come on Spring!!


----------



## rippin lip

K gonefishin said:


> I use fixed arm, no reason to use a floating arm. Bottombouncers.com has both styles I've talked to him about the difference in presentation, not much just preference suppose to prevent tangleing but I personally don't see how it makes much difference.
> 
> Moral of the story, buy fixed arm and call it a day.


thanks - b.b.com is where i was looking at them - didnt want to place an order then find out the others were better. thanks for the replies guys!


----------



## ezbite

while were on bottombouncers, i have no experience with them and i do plan on running them this year for the deep fish, instead of dragging dipsys in the mud. ive been looking at them, looks like 6 to 8 ouncers will be what im needing. ive seen some fixed arm (really leaning towards these) floating arm and no arm ones. ive also seen unpainted, black and chartruse ones. does anyone with experience have a prefrence to color or am i grasping here? i think you'd want to stay away from the chartruse ones also, when dragging a BB, do you think the arm scraping the bottom attracts some fish?


----------



## Jim Stedke

If I remember right Gary & Kevin both use unpainted bouncers. They'll likely chim in.

The days are getting longer and the count-down is on. Come on Spring.


----------



## K gonefishin

ezbite said:


> while were on bottombouncers, i have no experience with them and i do plan on running them this year for the deep fish, instead of dragging dipsys in the mud. ive been looking at them, looks like 6 to 8 ouncers will be what im needing. ive seen some fixed arm (really leaning towards these) floating arm and no arm ones. ive also seen unpainted, black and chartruse ones. does anyone with experience have a prefrence to color or am i grasping here? i think you'd want to stay away from the chartruse ones also, when dragging a BB, do you think the arm scraping the bottom attracts some fish?


Tom, I use fixed arm bouncers usually in plain lead unpainted, blends in with the bottom (IMO but who knows just less spooky) I have bouncers from 1/2 to 8 oz and have used and caught fish on every single one, for summer time speeds fishing deeper water 45 ft you want to use either a 6 or 8 oz, 5's are a great weight to. Need to have them all to cover any depths.


----------



## laidback

Jim, I am new to using jets, how do you tune them? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Jim Stedke

The short answer is "just like a crankbait", but when you have a Jet in your hand, there is no line tie loop, ....Just the big snap, that you have to try to rack into a crescent shape (a real pain). 

Here'a copy/paste from last yrs thread:
Jets perform best when tuned, just like a crank bait. Having no line tie eye to adjust, our first option is trying at reform the duo-lock snap, which is a tuff way to accomplish the task. 

A much easier way is to replace the snap with a #14 connecting link, (that's the one with a big loop at one end). Then it's quite easy to rack the link and get that Jet that's not getting to depth and trying to tangle the one beside it to run true.

This connecting link is availabke from Jann's Netcraft pg 15 item #335-505-014, 25 for 2.23 or 100 for 7.56.

One other thing we do to eliminate the problem of a Jet not wanting to dive, is bevel the edge of the hole for the snap or connector. This eliminates the bind that can be troublesome.

Hope this helps, and good fishing.


----------



## Gju42486

I HIGHLY recommend the connecting link.....i run jets a tonn when the fish allow me to and arnt buried in the mud 70ft down and must say they run 10x's better that way.


----------



## Chippewa

Cloud9 said:


> Hey Shortdrift, is there any chance you have a picture of this setup?


cloud9.. I believe this is what shortdrift was referring to..


----------



## Cloud9

Much apperciated. Thank you for the picture Chippewa.


----------



## Fishers of Men

sea oxx said:


> First of all, I want to thank everyone for all your info, it takes so much frustration out of learning trolling techniques!! Last year was our first shot at trolling for my son and me. We started with dipsies and spoons trying to keep it simple; *we were awesome at catching sheephead and perch.* We run out of West Harbor and fish around the Islands. *I was wondering If anyone had any tips on what would work best behind the dipsies when the water warms up in July and August?*


Change to fishing after dark and forget the daytime, or...
Gonna hear it from the guys that like it but I don't. IMO...
I start West in April, My tip is to leave the junk fish...When that water warms up, the garbage fish move in and flourish, you cant keep baits in long enough to catch as many eyes, it takes longer and so on. I don't like it myself. 
The group of eyes that have migrated East by then, (sometimes you don't have to go that far East either) Go with them, less garbage, you can keep baits in the water for more of an eye bite... and I follow them without nearly so much junk aggravation and have a ball. Play the water temp game. 
Well worth it.


----------



## Bob Why

Van, Are you saying that you fish after dark in the summer? What kind of a program do you run then. Seems to me that they sort of shut down after dark in the Vermilion/Lorain area. And I don't think they go in real shallow then, but what do I know.


----------



## Fishers of Men

I treat it like bass fishing times. Early am and eve.
I have done fine seems like up to about 2100 then slows on to 2200-2300 and then it seamed to just shut down until like 0400 till daylight for me. 
So, when it slows I usually come in and go back out early. I see a lot of guys still out when I am coming in. The locals there are fishing it at nite. One of them might put you on something...I don't hear of any talk about it probably to keep the traffic down. You should see them pile in at buhlans ramp right at dark!


----------



## sea oxx

FOM Im sure what you say about going east is true, but If I make the family leave the camper any earlier on sat. and sun. Im not gonna have a boat camper or family. right? LOL


----------



## Jim Stedke

sea oxx said:


> FOM Im sure what you say about going east is true, but If I make the family leave the camper any earlier on sat. and sun. Im not gonna have a boat camper or family. right? LOL


Sea Ox, Last year the fish hung in around Kelly Shoal until the weeds made life miserable. There were also fish to caught running a 330 degree heading off of Green Island (from 3 - 8 miles past the island) in July.

Running Dipsys helps with the weeds because they stop the weeds short of the spoons, and you fish a clean lure longer. And they are faster to clean & reset. 

If the water temps get up over 78 degrees (which they never did last year), expect most of the walleyes to head east.

They staged right out in front of Cedar Point for a couple weeks. It was kind of a zoo, but the fish where there.

Each year is diferent, depending on wind, run-off and water temps. Just keep on eye on this site...you can usually get an idea of where to start.

Good luck.


----------



## sea oxx

OK Im glad I started trolling with the dipsies firstthanks


----------



## Gju42486

jim, gary, kgone, ezbite---where are all your hawgfest secret spots???   



(figured i would add some comedy to this thread  )


----------



## Fishers of Men

Sea ox...
Yepper, the guys that stay there know the tricks, like Jim said stay tuned in.  
Surprised Keith didn't jump in!


----------



## sea oxx

Alright, thanks fellas this stuff really helps


----------



## KaGee

Fishers of Men said:


> Sea ox...
> Yepper, the guys that stay there know the tricks, like Jim said stay tuned in.
> Surprised Keith didn't jump in!


Well, we never once broke out the dipseys or opened the spoon box last year. We used the same in-line weight and harness off of in-line boards presentation all year. The last date on bags of walleye in the freezer is Aug. 8th. We fished out of Turtle Creek north of B and C cans and northeast of West Sister all season. Right around them early and a few miles further out later.

But that was last year. Like Jim says, every year is different. There were fish north of there still in late August but we were not up to running after them near the border.


----------



## sea oxx

Thanks KaGee. We fish out of west harbor and usualy try to keep the boat ride under a half hour. I know that limits me alittle. Ive thought about running down to the firing range but Im not real familiar with the area. not to sure how long it would take to go that far west. I guess, its just that kellys and bass Islands are my comfort zone


----------



## wakina

SEA OXX
I run out of East Harbor, on a good day with 2 to 3ft waves or less I could make Niagra in about 1/2 hour. Most times I didn't need to go that far. The firing range has alot of markers that can be seen for a fair distance keep them on your left side and you will be alright. When you get to Niagra and the big green can you can make c-can in another 10 to 15 min. at most. Generally c-can is visible from Niagra. c-can area is also very good for perching. 

Derald


----------



## sea oxx

Oh. I always thought the lettered cans that everyone talked about actually marked the firing range.now the clouds are starting to part. I have 3 maps of the islands but they all stop east of the firing range. Gotta get a new map.Thanks wakina


----------



## KaGee

sea oxx said:


> Oh. I always thought the lettered cans that everyone talked about actually marked the firing range.now the clouds are starting to part. I have 3 maps of the islands but they all stop east of the firing range. *Gotta get a new map.*Thanks wakina


Look here: http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=50972

I printed out a couple and took them to Kinkos and laminated them.
They stay on the boat.


----------



## Fishers of Men

Sea oxx,
If you get the cd or hard copy of "Denied" by Dean Clifton you will have more than you ever could have imagined for info in that area. 
WBSA has the info. Some of the bait shops in the area have them still for sale I believe. Or someone on here will know where you can get it. Best 20$ you will spend.
Here's an example:
http://www.wbsa.us/denied/picture.HTM


----------



## sea oxx

Alright thanks fellas Ill check them out.


----------



## Tommybouy

Jim Stedke said:


> Tommy, Most end up liking the 30s because they have a wt in the floatation chamber that helps them stay flipped over when reeling in a fish.
> 
> Speed effects Jets the least of all diving planes, 1.3 - 3 mph. Because they float at rest slower = higher & faster = deeper but over time with surges the depth diference is not large.
> 
> They can cause cross under tangles, but a hesitation of 20 seconds and /or an 20 degree turn away from the hooked fish will minimize them. Tuning the Jets will help also as they don't always want to track straight.
> 
> They are fish catchers, and fairly fool proof.
> 
> Good luck.



Jim;

Thank you for this information. The size, speed, tuning give me more than enough info! Sorry for my delay; the work thing gets in the way once-in-a-while. Thank you again.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Tommybouy said:


> Jim;
> 
> Thank you for this information. The size, speed, tuning give me more than enough info! Sorry for my delay; the work thing gets in the way once-in-a-while. Thank you again.



No problem ... happy to help. & good luck.


----------



## goolies

Jim

I know some crankbaits have more of a rolling action when trolled and some wobble more side-to-side. Is there a time or place to use one style over the other. I thought I read somewhere roll is more important than wobble for walleye. To me the rolling action cranks seem similar to spoons in the way they flash color. 

The Rapala Minnow Rap is a good example of a crank that rolls more than it wobbles. Here is a video http://www.rapala.com/products/luresdetail.cfm?modelName=minnow_rap&freshorsalt=Fresh 

I would be interested in hearing your opinion.

Thanks,
Andy


----------



## Big Chief

I am going to order some in line weights from Bass pro, is there one particular size that seems to be a best fit or do I need a whole selection. I fish the western basin early then move to Huron area for the remainder. Most of my trolling experience is with dipsy's.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Roll vs wobble: There are many ways to define a crank baits action. I simplify it to how hard the lure pulls. Shad Raps & lipless lures (like Rattle Traps) pull very easy. Reef Runners & Power Dive Minnows pull quite hard. Thunder Sticks & 25A Bombers are in between. Then there's some of the stick baits that are nearly "do nothin" lures, like shallow Rouges & Huskys.

Hot N Tots & Wiggle Warts are somewhat in a catagory by themselves. They pull fairly hard but have a wider wobble then the pull indicates. These lures are used mainly in warmer water when the fish are fired up. 

Now we could get into how to fire up or slow down the action of a lure, but I don't think that's where you want to go.

The slower speeds that spring trollers utilze, reduce the action of all lures. And in general I'd say that as water temps increase, lure actions should do the same. This happens automatically to a degree with increased speeds.

This would make an interesting topic for a round table discussion, as I'm sure you would find various opinions and points of view. 

Besides water temps the other variable that I think would most influence the walleyes attraction to action would be barometric pressure, with quick changes reducing their activity level, and making the lesser action lures more appropriate.

I hope this is something close to what you were looking for and if not ... straighten me out. 

Very good question, and good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Big Chief said:


> I am going to order some in line weights from Bass pro, is there one particular size that seems to be a best fit or do I need a whole selection. I fish the western basin early then move to Huron area for the remainder. Most of my trolling experience is with dipsy's.


 I'd defer to Gary, but I think he'd say 1, 1-1/2, & 2 is what you'll use most, but heavier ones have their time & place as well. 

This will get more comments.

Good luck.


----------



## KaGee

Jim Stedke said:


> I'd defer to Gary, but I think he'd say 1, 1-1/2, & 2 is what you'll use most, but heavier ones have their time & place as well.
> 
> This will get more comments.
> 
> Good luck.


Not that we're experts, but we never dragged more than 2oz here in the WB. I have 3oz in the box, but never found a condition that required it.


----------



## K gonefishin

Jim Stedke said:


> I'd defer to Gary, but I think he'd say 1, 1-1/2, & 2 is what you'll use most, but heavier ones have their time & place as well.
> 
> This will get more comments.
> 
> Good luck.



For the western basin 1 and 2 oz are mostly what I use, but if I'm running alot of lines then I will run a 3 oz on my inside board, with a 1 on the outside and 2 on the inside. Or a 1 and 2 on boards and a 3 oz or 4 oz bouncers on my boat rods. 

To answer your question, you need them all. 1,2,3


----------



## Big Chief

Thanks. I figured that would be the answer, but wanted to check.


----------



## Cloud9

Mr. Stedke:

I will always preface my questions with a sincere thanks to you (and the other contributors) for taking the time to answer all these questions. It is rather remarkable.

Onto the the question...

I am trying to avoid asking another vague question, but this may get filed in that same category. In attempt to make it more specific, if you were to take some clients, with no walleye experience, out in the WB to do some harness drifting, how would you instruct them to reel in a walleye with success? Is there a key to netting the fish?

The answer may be too simplistic, but I read, rather often, of fish lost at the boat or hookups without landings. Are there techniques to use during the retrieval that leads to greater success or do these miss fish come as a result of other scenarios (such as hook types, etc)

I use this example of drifting harnesses because I would think it is the simplest to answer as dipseys, jets, boards, and other lure-location devices results in perhaps different answers.

Hope this is not too dumb of a question; there have been so many good ones over the years of your threads. Thanks in advance for any reply and like you say, COME ON SPRING.


----------



## Gju42486

cloud, im not jim or a pro like the rest but heres my take on reeling in fish. Personally, from what i can remember, we didnt lose a large number of fish last year.

I know ALOT of guys and even alot of the charters i know preach the term "keep the rod tip up at all times ect"

I tell my guys to do this for about the first 1/4 of the fight. Once the fish breaks the top of the water like most of them do. I throw that rod tip in the air down the drink---i dont like it.

What i have them do is to literally point the rod tip at the fish and keep reeling. Once the fish about 20 ft off the back of the boat, i tell them to start walking back--while reeling and pointing the rod at the fish still. 


Now, for the reason on the tip angle. Its well known how soft a walleye's mouth is- its literally like paper. I feel that by keeping the rod tip up and high--your actually lifting the fish out of the water and applying all that upward pressure to the soft mouth and most of the time its to much for it to handle and the fish comes unbottoned. 

I feel that pointed the tip at the fish- eases most of the pressure on the soft tissue and actually helps keep the fish in the water better. I dont like when they "skate in" on top of the water, especially if its rough out. When a large wave pushes it forward, it slacks the line and with a headshake- the fish is gone. I would rather it be under the water the whole way in, but we know that dont happen.


Again this is MY oppinion and not necessarily the RIGHT answer. This is what works for me, so we stick with it.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Cloud9 said:


> Mr. Stedke:
> 
> I will always preface my questions with a sincere thanks to you (and the other contributors) for taking the time to answer all these questions. It is rather remarkable.
> 
> Onto the the question...
> 
> I am trying to avoid asking another vague question, but this may get filed in that same category. In attempt to make it more specific, if you were to take some clients, with no walleye experience, out in the WB to do some harness drifting, how would you instruct them to reel in a walleye with success? Is there a key to netting the fish?
> 
> The answer may be too simplistic, but I read, rather often, of fish lost at the boat or hookups without landings. Are there techniques to use during the retrieval that leads to greater success or do these miss fish come as a result of other scenarios (such as hook types, etc)
> 
> I use this example of drifting harnesses because I would think it is the simplest to answer as dipseys, jets, boards, and other lure-location devices results in perhaps different answers.
> 
> Hope this is not too dumb of a question; there have been so many good ones over the years of your threads. Thanks in advance for any reply and like you say, COME ON SPRING.


Cloud9, To me the secret to boating a majority of your hookups is keeping study pressure on the fish. I'm NOT talking about reeling at a slow and steady speed, but rather reeling at various rates so as to keep the same bend in the rod, or pressure on the fish. (And absolutely no pumping the rod)

I actually apply quite a bit of pressure and attempt to get the fish to the net as soon as is practical. I do not baby them.

George's comments about not yanking the fish's head out of the water is correct, but I don't like the thought of pointing the rod tip at the fish. If you need to lower the tip to keep the fish in the water, point the tip off to the side, but keep the flex in the rod to cushion the fish. 

Netting needs to be a coordinated effort between the guy with the rod & the netter. The guy with the rod needs to keep the fish coming. Don't stop reeling when you think the fish is close enough to net. Reaching for a fish with the net is the best way to loose them. The netter needs to wait until he can assuredly put the fishes head on the bottom of the net, and make one dipping motion, securing the catch.

Walleyes are notorious for making one last dive at the boat. Be ready for them to do that. I've fished with excellent fishermen who back their drags off in anticipation of this manuveur. I wouldn't suggest that, but being ready to react and give the fish 4-6' of travel (with pressure still applied), will save many rip offs and/or break offs.

All these comments are universal to all presentations. Draging harnesses, or any trolling technique. What you want to do is not shock the fish by varying the pressure applied. Every pressure change scares the fish and causes panic. Keep them as coming at a steady pressure and you'll loose very few.

Hope this helps, and thanks for the atta boy. Come on Spring.


----------



## lyman68

Jim as a drift fisherman, what would be the simplest and cheapest way to troll harnesses on those days when the drift dies on me. ie inline boards and snapweights or dipsies without boards?


----------



## Jim Stedke

lyman68 said:


> Jim as a drift fisherman, what would be the simplest and cheapest way to troll harnesses on those days when the drift dies on me. ie inline boards and snapweights or dipsies without boards?


Lyman, Harnesses can be run behind either, with the main difference being speed. Dipsys speeds are 1.8 - 2.5 mph & in-line wts w/ in-line boards are from under 1 - 1.5 mph .

Dipsys can be tricky to learn, but reading boards at slower speeds can be tricky also. It may come down to you deciding what method will be best for your boat, and what you want to learn.

You can wind drift, with boards on those days when there's a good drift, so you could experiment without too much hastle.

That's my initial thought, Come back with more questions,if you have any.

Good luck, and you're in for some fun.


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## OhYeah

Jim,
I've 'read' that the famous last dive bringing a fish directly up the stern of the boat is a product of the water pressure changes at the rear of the boat; the author stated that bringing the fish in as far as possible to the side of the boat dramatically minimized this problem when trolling. Any 'truth' to that, or just another opinion ? 

GR


----------



## Jim Stedke

OhYeah said:


> Jim,
> I've 'read' that the famous last dive bringing a fish directly up the stern of the boat is a product of the water pressure changes at the rear of the boat; the author stated that bringing the fish in as far as possible to the side of the boat dramatically minimized this problem when trolling. Any 'truth' to that, or just another opinion ?
> 
> GR



This happens more when drifting than when trolling, so I would saw it's highly unlikely that water pressure has anything to do with it. 

If we were in salt water trolling at speeds where we were leavivg a wake, I'd say maybe, but not at 2 or 2.5 mph.


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## sea oxx

When trolling with dipsys is it better to have your rod tips closer to the water or pointed up high? Does it even matter?


----------



## Jim Stedke

sea oxx said:


> When trolling with dipsys is it better to have your rod tips closer to the water or pointed up high? Does it even matter?


 
Sea Oxx, 
We run our Dipsy rods nearly Horizontal, but that's in a 32' Marinette. When I run Dipsies in tournament style boats, the holders have to be up a little to keep the rod tips out of the water. We got in this habit because we often run boards along with the Dipsies, and the board roods need to be high.

I think the rods are easier to read in the lower position, but that has a lot to do with your position. 

Keeping the Dipsy rods only 11"s or so apart, permits you to read one rod off of the others, and makes little 2" changes in the rod tips quite obvious. That why I'm a big proponent of the 3 & 4 plex T bar holders. 

I hope in there somewhere is the answer to your question.

Oh yea, if you run them high, reralize that most of the guys on the radio have their's low, and add some drop length to make up for the additional line that you have to the water.

Good luck and good fishing.


----------



## sea oxx

Ok, I wondered if I needed to consider the line from the pole to the water in the amount of line I release. Last year I just put the two 10' rods straight up in the flush mount rod holders, I must of had 100' feet of line in the air,what a dork.Thanks for the info !!


----------



## Captain Kevin

Jim, there was a fellow a page or 2 back that asked a question about G.P.S.'s. If it's alright I'd like chip in and say by all means if a hand held is what you have access to use it. If for no other reason you can give exact coordinates should you need assistance, or rescue. Seconds count in life a death situations, and giving precise locations to rescue crews will prevent the need to hunt you down, and frankly could be the difference between a funeral, and fishing again another day. It will also be an aid should someone give you #'s on a hot bite. In addition to that a G.P.S. on a foggy/hazy day will make your search for port much easier


----------



## Captain Kevin

The answer to the question about the Hawgfest locations is they all fished a pocket of fish North of Rt.6.


----------



## fishingguy

I am suffering paralysis from analysis, please let me get out in a boat, SOON!. I don't care if I don't do everything exactly right, I need to get out!!!! I'll troll a spark plug if I have to. I just need this winter to end. Jim, please can you recommend a good fishing psychologist to get me through these tough times. I need to catch a fish! I know I am the only one with these feelings, and maybe can get some help.


----------



## Captain Kevin

A good therapy I've found is to watch "hunting with Lee, and Tiffany" There is something about a hot blonde in camo that seems to make cabin fever go away!!


----------



## Gju42486

Captain Kevin said:


> A good therapy I've found is to watch "hunting with Lee, and Tiffany" There is something about a hot blonde in camo that seems to make cabin fever go away!!


im actually watching her as i type this! 

Have you seen her bowfishing show yet??? :C


----------



## moondog5814

Jim, I really look forward to all of the information that you and others provide over the winter. This will be mine and my buddy's 3rd year of trolling. We have never trolled with bottom bouncers. Do you run a leader off of the bouncer and then your harness? How do you know that you are on the bottom? Will the rod tip be bouncing up and down? Thanks.


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## Captain Kevin

George, I was watching her as I typed that. I haven't seen her bowfishing show. Please tell me she's not wearing a bikini


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## Gju42486

Captain Kevin said:


> George, I was watching her as I typed that. I haven't seen her bowfishing show. Please tell me she's not wearing a bikini


Um yea! and quite a site at that.........i happen to have a copy, PM me your address and i can let you borrow it if you want :B


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## Captain Kevin

OHHH MYYY GODDD! I'm typing a P.M. right now!!!!


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## Tommybouy

Hi Jim;

This question is related to trolling history as opposed to requesting a tip. My interest is learning when others begin using new methods or methods that appear to have been new and might have already been a practice for experienced anglers like yourself before "newer methods" were in print.

My walleye trolling education began fishing with Bob Probst Sr. on Lake Erie and at the time two colors of leadcore w/ a deep diver and 3 colors on a shallow diver was the norm and this was popular in publisized tournaments approximately around 1992-1993 when PWT was a pro -to- pro format?? _(Be EZ on me, my time frames are a little fuzzy.)_  My best recollection of fishing high in the water column began or had a violent shove into print dated back to Steve Fellegy trolling around the Charity Is. in the top 15 feet in similar timeframe. I fished Saginaw in 1994 and the Charity Is. were well known by that year in July and was my first experience trolling high in the water column. We fished higher at Saginaw than I had at Lake Erie and I think it was 2000 or 2001 before I transposed what was learned on Saginaw to Lake Erie. _(Could be 1 year later or earlier.)_ For no other reason than simple interest in history; how early did the high bite take off on Lake Erie and when did you begin fishing high in the water column? I'm always interested when new methods truely begin. This a water-cooler; general information based question when you get time. Obviously the requests for assistance should take precedence. But thank you in advance for sharing a little history!


----------



## K gonefishin

moondog5814 said:


> Jim, I really look forward to all of the information that you and others provide over the winter. This will be mine and my buddy's 3rd year of trolling. We have never trolled with bottom bouncers. Do you run a leader off of the bouncer and then your harness? How do you know that you are on the bottom? Will the rod tip be bouncing up and down? Thanks.


The spinner rigs that you run off of a bottom bouners should be the same length as the ones you run off of inline weights, around 5 ft or so, on the end of your spinner it's easiest to have a barrel swivel that you can attach directly to the bouncer arm. No leader required if you tie your spinners in this range of length. 

As far as how heavy of a bouncer..use the general rule of thumb of 1 oz for every 10 ft of water you are fishing, another rule of thumb is your line should be at a 45 degree angle. 

Put your linecounter clicker on free spool and thumb the reel while letting your bouncer hit the bottom of the lake, you should be able to feel the thud when it makes contact, I let out another few ft, how many depends on how deep of water, less depth less more depth more line out.


----------



## Jim Stedke

fishingguy said:


> I am suffering paralysis from analysis, please let me get out in a boat, SOON!. I don't care if I don't do everything exactly right, I need to get out!!!! I'll troll a spark plug if I have to. I just need this winter to end. Jim, please can you recommend a good fishing psychologist to get me through these tough times. I need to catch a fish! I know I am the only one with these feelings, and maybe can get some help.


Fishingguy, Head south with a pocket full of money. Leave some of the money with a good guide, and the problem should resolve itself.

Best I got, or you can do like me .... Hang in and get by with just talkin about fishun.

Good luck and know that it's gettin closer ever day.


----------



## Jim Stedke

moondog5814 said:


> Jim, I really look forward to all of the information that you and others provide over the winter. This will be mine and my buddy's 3rd year of trolling. We have never trolled with bottom bouncers. Do you run a leader off of the bouncer and then your harness? How do you know that you are on the bottom? Will the rod tip be bouncing up and down? Thanks.



Moondog, Kgone did a good job with the question.

Let me add that to me bouncers are best for working fish tight to the bottom while running a breakline. I use them very rarely in open water on Erie. I'd be more likely to use an in-line wt. 

About the tip bouncing, most guys use a bouncer more like a bottom tickler, and just tick the bottom ever so often to make sure they are still close to it. 

Hope this helps and good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Tommybouy said:


> Hi Jim;
> 
> This question is related to trolling history as opposed to requesting a tip. My interest is learning when others begin using new methods or methods that appear to have been new and might have already been a practice for experienced anglers like yourself before "newer methods" were in print.
> 
> My walleye trolling education began fishing with Bob Probst Sr. on Lake Erie and at the time two colors of leadcore w/ a deep diver and 3 colors on a shallow diver was the norm and this was popular in publisized tournaments approximately around 1992-1993 when PWT was a pro -to- pro format?? _(Be EZ on me, my time frames are a little fuzzy.)_  My best recollection of fishing high in the water column began or had a violent shove into print dated back to Steve Fellegy trolling around the Charity Is. in the top 15 feet in similar timeframe. I fished Saginaw in 1994 and the Charity Is. were well known by that year in July and was my first experience trolling high in the water column. We fished higher at Saginaw than I had at Lake Erie and I think it was 2000 or 2001 before I transposed what was learned on Saginaw to Lake Erie. _(Could be 1 year later or earlier.)_ For no other reason than simple interest in history; how early did the high bite take off on Lake Erie and when did you begin fishing high in the water column? I'm always interested when new methods truely begin. This a water-cooler; general information based question when you get time. Obviously the requests for assistance should take precedence. But thank you in advance for sharing a little history!


Tommybouy,
Way before we started trolling, in the 70s (holly moley that's like 35 years ago) we cast wt forwards exclusivly. And some of our best days were when we could work a 5 count, or a splash count (no count at all). So we've known about high fish for a long time. 

Trolling for high fish became possible with the advent of planer boards, and we've been doing that for nearly 20 years. 

I'd have to check some of my old portfolios to confirm dates, but that's close. 

Man I must be gettin old!!!! 

Come on Spring.


----------



## blue dolphin

Moondog that rule of thumb that kevin mentioned 1 ounce for every 10 ft is a 1mph which should get you around a 45 dgree angle with your line. Also I like to drag my bouncers alot especially if there right in the mud meaning once i hit bottom i look at my line counter and maybe add another 20 or 30 ft to my line counter before i put it in the rodholder. Remember when you let your bouncer down and it intially hits bottom ( stops) that doesnt mean its on the bottom with the foward trolling of the boat it rises up immediatley. so adding another 20 or 30 ft will get you there and get those negative fish out of the mud. Good luck Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## lyman68

Jim Refering to my previous question of inlines and boards or dypsies. Lets take in to account that trolling for me is out of necessity in june and july when its hot buggy and there is no drift, strictly western basin. After the jig bite i'll still be casting for them. Till it gets hot and of course the water will be warmer. In the heat of summer how fast are you trolling with the inlineboards and weights with harnesses? Also how fast would the max speed be for a #4 colorado blade? Many thanks


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## Jim Stedke

Lyman, Max speed for a #4 Colorado harnesss is a tricky question. Keeping the harness short (like a Dipsy haness) using heavier leader material for the harness & the leader (like 25# flouro leader material), and using Sampo ball bearing swivels, all create a harness system that allows a max speed of (+/- 2.3 mph). Leave one of those key items out and see some of the nastiested twisted up messes you've ever seen. 

Most consider anything approaching 1.5 mph fast for in-line boards & weighted harnesses. The weight may be a snap weight or a in-line wt, but in either case most guys would be using 5 - 6' long harnesses, which won't tolerate higher speeds.

Speed is key in harnesses and it's almost always SLOW. So you asking about the what most guys would say is the wrong end of the speed range. 

Let's see what Kevin & Gary have to say.

Good luck.


----------



## blue dolphin

I would say Jim nailed the answer. I would say your negative fish down at the bottom are going to want it slow 1.5 give or take and you active fish you can get away with 1.8 2.0 give or take . that should get ya in a good range for effectivness for a # 4 colorado. DOnt be afraid to go to a # 5 either. that one size up could mean the difference sometimes. good luck Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## The One

When tieng your harness what is the distance between the front hook and the stinger?


----------



## blue dolphin

Abt 3 inches give or take a cm. Gary


----------



## Jim Stedke

I wouldn't argue with Gary, but I like mine a smidge longer (like 4" or so). 

I bet if you took an overall average of Gary's speed pulling harnesses, & compared to an overall average of my speed, that my speed would average at least .5 mph faster than Gary's. 

Not to say I'm right and he's wrong ...check the tournament record and you'll see it says HE'S RIGHT, but just to give you a reason for mine being a little longer.

Hope this helps, and good luck.


----------



## true2plue

Jim Stedke said:


> but just to give you a reason for mine being a little longer. QUOTE]
> 
> Let's keep this clean fellows!!


----------



## Jim Stedke

LOL, Hey it's your mind ... you gotta be in charge of it.


----------



## sea oxx

Do you guys think the sheephead move up and down in the water column, or do you feel they are 99 percent on the bottom? The reason I ask is alot of times Ill get large marks up high, but have rarely caught walleye when I started fishing up higher.


----------



## blue dolphin

Lol now thats funny. I really dont think 4 would make a difference. I dont think mine are exactly 3. i just try to imagine where the trailer hook goes into his body usually i like mine somewhere by the ring with a little slack and a long tail. As far as tourney record i think you have me beat by a mile. but i still have a couple years to catch up and i do have Nicholas lol. Gary


----------



## Gju42486

blue dolphin said:


> Lol now thats funny. I really dont think 4 would make a difference. I dont think mine are exactly 3. i just try to imagine where the trailer hook goes into his body usually i like mine somewhere by the ring with a little slack and a long tail. As far as tourney record i think you have me beat by a mile. but i still have a couple years to catch up and *i do have Nicholas lol*. Gary


thats the part that scares me.....that kid is a machine. Im jelous i didnt get started like that younger. Im gettin to old to be taught new tricks. :S


----------



## topstroke

the polish prince's are the **** out of bula and geneva


----------



## Jim Stedke

sea oxx said:


> Do you guys think the sheephead move up and down in the water column, or do you feel they are 99 percent on the bottom? The reason I ask is alot of times Ill get large marks up high, but have rarely caught walleye when I started fishing up higher.


 Ever see what looks almost like a funnel cloud on the screen. That's a spawning group of sheephead. They swim in a tight circle one above another, in a spiraling orgy, and they will bite in the middle of this. So Yes sheephead do suspend way high sometimes. 

They follow the bait, just like the walleyes.


----------



## sea oxx

Ok Thanks Jim. Ive also heard that if your catching alot of sheep head to speed up some. Is there any truth to this?.


----------



## Jim Stedke

sea oxx said:


> Ok Thanks Jim. Ive also heard that if your catching alot of sheep head to speed up some. Is there any truth to this?.


 Speeding up raises your lures, and sometimes this can help. But there's also that time (mid July) off Copper Kettle when the sheephead rule, and the best way to reduce their numbers is to slow down and run a worm harness. 

Somebody explain that one to me!


----------



## sea oxx

Cant wait to start trying this stuff
Thanks


----------



## Gju42486

topstroke said:


> the polish prince's are the **** out of bula and geneva


so is that what you named that super hot stickbait i told you about last year????? shhhhh


----------



## Spaniel235

Jim,
Do you remove the split rings from your crankbaits? Advantages? Disadvantages? Thanks.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Nope, I leave the split rings on, and when I'm tuning the lure, I make sure the split in the ring is down (against the loop) built into the bill. Believe it or not it does make a difference. (just in case you didn't know how wierd I am about tuneing).

I think the advantage is a more freed up wobble.


----------



## Bulldog1149

Myself along with thousands of others will hit the rivers in late March / early April. Are some of you already trolling the main lake by this time? Is there a population of fish that never travel the rivers to spawn? Just to sit back and think about distances to travel, I would imagine it would take the walleyes several weeks to migrate from the rivers and get out to the islands and other areas like Lorain. Am I way out of line? How soon can you start hit these fish in the vermillion to huron areas? Before the river bite? Or do they slow down for a week or two for the spawn and then pick right back up?


Are than any good charts for trolling depths with various inline weights? I know this is a speed driven factor, but there should be some standard, I would think. Does a deep crank actually fish above the weight in the water column, or below it?


----------



## Fishers of Men

Bulldog1149 said:


> Just to sit back and think about distances to travel, I would imagine it would take the walleyes several weeks to migrate from the rivers and get out to the islands and other areas like Lorain.


When they are done it depends on lake temps, they have been monitored doing 60 mi in a 24 hr period.
They will go out during the day and come back in at night. 
Here today, gone tomorrow...


----------



## FreeByrdSteve

Bulldog1149 said:


> Myself along with thousands of others will hit the rivers in late March / early April. Are some of you already trolling the main lake by this time? Is there a population of fish that never travel the rivers to spawn? Just to sit back and think about distances to travel, I would imagine it would take the walleyes several weeks to migrate from the rivers and get out to the islands and other areas like Lorain. Am I way out of line? How soon can you start hit these fish in the vermillion to huron areas? Before the river bite? Or do they slow down for a week or two for the spawn and then pick right back up?
> 
> 
> Are than any good charts for trolling depths with various inline weights? I know this is a speed driven factor, but there should be some standard, I would think. Does a deep crank actually fish above the weight in the water column, or below it?


The VAST MAJORITY (like near 80% is a number I've heard) of the walleye spawn IN THE LAKE - with most of those being on the reef complex west of the islands. There are also some local populations of fish that spawn all along the lake, but the most concentrated amount of walleye in the world are located in the area of the reef complex during the spawning period. Also the spawn takes place over several weeks - maybe as much as a month. The point about fishing moving through is a good one. If you were out North or East of the reef complex fishing for a week and catching fish every day it is likely that different fish are moving through during that time period.

The inline weights are covered in Precision Trolling and you are correct it is a VERY speed dependant technique.

As far as timing - there will be a bunch of us out trolling in late March / Early April.


----------



## BFG

Steve provided a great answer there, and I might also add that a vast majority of the fish that run the Maumee are from Lake St. Clair. 

I've caught several jaw-tagged walleyes during the run that were tagged in LSC. 


I have a question for the harness demographic...

With the inception of allowing 3 rods per angler in MI waters of Erie this spring (after April 9th I believe) we'd like to use the downriggers on the boat in addition to the big board program that we normally run. The big board program is a crank and/or mini-disc/spoon program, but we'd like to play around with running some harnesses (if I can convince my buddy to actually permit worms on his boat) off of the riggers. 

We normally troll at 2.2-2.4 knots....what style of harness would you recommend, and if you don't mind, how far back off the ball are you running them? I've done reasonably well running shallow running cranks off the riggers about 30' back, but wouldn't mind experimenting with harnesses in the mud in an attempt to pull some larger, lazy fish during the daylight hours. We are not new to rigger fishing, just haven't run the harnesses off of them. 

The reason we want to run the riggers in lieu of slide divers or dipseys is that we normally run 3-5 lines off the big boards, and that pretty much takes up the space on the sides of the boat. The riggers are there..we might as well use them. 

Thanks in advance....


----------



## K gonefishin

We've had luck running a 1 oz inline with double willows harnesses about 20-30 back from the ball. You would use the same formula to figure out where your bait is running no different than you would if it was on a board. For spooky eyes in clear water this let's the bait drop down below the ball and out of the way, the riggers will give them a different action due to the rigger/ball being effected by the motion of the boat not the wave action of an inline or big board. Sometimes they work great sometimes it doesn't work You can run them straight off the ball without a weight as well, I like the idea of running spinners off riggers, I got riggers for my boat last year and plan on doing alot of this this season when fishing the deeper waters east of the islands, expecially on home court of cleveland where I fish the most after April. Colorado's don't like speeds over 1.7 or so. If you going to use spinners at those speeds stick to double willows. 

You can do the same with deep sticks as well which was great for me in Lorain last year.


----------



## FreeByrdSteve

BFG,
My uncle still runs downriggers every trip and does well with them. His normal program is pretty short leads like 10 to 30 feet behind the ball (I know - not the conventional wisdom for walleye...but it works for him) with either a larger spoon or stickbait (favorite being a shallow thunderstick) but last year he started using some double or sometimes single willow blade harness. He actually used the gulp crawlers with success. A high quality ball bearing swivel in front of the harness is real important. 2.2 to 2.4 KNOTS is pretty fast for harnesses but can be done with willows


----------



## BFG

Thanks guys..we can run a bit slower, but optimally 2.2. knots is about right for the Carolina. 

Single or double willows..but then somewhere in this thread a poster pointed out that the willows are not nearly as productive in the Western basin due to preferred/available forage base???

How 'bout hatchet blades? Are they more or less speed tolerant than the others being discussed? I would think they would be somewhere in the middle, but once again, forgive my lack of knowledge regarding the use of harnesses. 

BTW Kgone...interesting that you are running an inline in front of a harness behind a rigger weight...my guess is that 1 or 2 colors of leadcore (SWR rig) would accomplish the same thing....


----------



## K gonefishin

It was me, double willows seem to excel much better where smelt are present at that is what they represent (IMO) I have ran them in the western basin and they don't seem to catch nearly as good as colorado's, if at all but this wasn't in the middle of summer either. 

Indiana, and hatchets DO run much better at higher speeds, you can run them both at 2.0-2.2. They are much more speed tolarant as they spin much closer to the blade in a flatter motion not a wide sweaping motion like a colorado will. I know alot of guys like smaller blades #3 or #4 double colorado's they will spin okay at higher speeds. 

Yep the inline weight is basically a SWR or same principle at least. 




BFG said:


> Thanks guys..we can run a bit slower, but optimally 2.2. knots is about right for the Carolina.
> 
> Single or double willows..but then somewhere in this thread a poster pointed out that the willows are not nearly as productive in the Western basin due to preferred/available forage base???
> 
> How 'bout hatchet blades? Are they more or less speed tolerant than the others being discussed? I would think they would be somewhere in the middle, but once again, forgive my lack of knowledge regarding the use of harnesses.
> 
> BTW Kgone...interesting that you are running an inline in front of a harness behind a rigger weight...my guess is that 1 or 2 colors of leadcore (SWR rig) would accomplish the same thing....


----------



## Bulldog1149

When you run offshore type inline boards, do you typically use both snaps and lock the board to the line, or do you use one snap and an eyelet and let the board drift back?



When using snap or inline weights the rule is 1oz. 20 ft from the lure will increase the dive curve 33%. I have seen people say to use a lead from 6-20-50 ft. Does this affect the 33%, also what affect does it have to go from 1oz to 2 oz? would it be 66%?


----------



## BFG

> When you run offshore type inline boards, do you typically use both snaps and lock the board to the line, or do you use one snap and an eyelet and let the board drift back?


I'll take a stab at this one if you guys don't mind...

I do not like to set the boards to trip when a fish hits. Regardless of the method used to stop the board, the problem then becomes that once the board has reached its stopping point, you are going to have to lift it out of the water once the fish is close. Now..you also have to do this when you run them to not release, but it's usually when there is still 50'+ of line yet to go to the fish. I don't know about you, but having to lift an inline out of the water with the fish some 6-8' behind it isn't all that comfortable. 

I think where a lot of this comes from is that guys do not like "fighting the board" once a fish is hooked up. A real good friend of mine runs a salmon charter on Lake Michigan and he has shown me several little tricks to effectively (and painlessly) bring in fish behind boards. The best way that I have seen to get the board to the back of the boat and into an assisting anglers hands is as follows..

Lets say for instance the port outside board hooks up. The angler should grab the rod and immediately move to the starboard transom. Holding the rod out to starboard, parallel to the surface of the water, the angler steadily reels in the board and fish. By applying this directional force to the board, it keeps the planing surface of the board in the water, preventing it from skipping across the surface (obviously under reasonable sea conditions) and also helps to maintain consistent pressure on the fish. Once the board is behind the boat, an assisting angler moves to the port transom, and WITHOUT TOUCHING THE LINE quickly un-clips the board. While this is happening, the angler with the rod must remain patient, but if using Church boards can keep right on reeling once the front clip is released, as the line will continue to slide through the fixed-pin slot in the rear of the board. The pin is then pulled, board removed, and fish can then be brought to the back of the boat. I agree with a previous poster in that one should try their best to not get the fishes head out of the water, but would not recommend pointing the rod at the fish, rather return the rod to the position at which it was located (parallel to the water, tip pointed away) when you brought in the board. 

This method works great for every presentation that I have run behind inlines. If running more than 2 boards per side, you may have to snug up closer lines towards the boat to clear an outside line, but for the most part, it is not that difficult. Take your time...you sharpened those hooks for a reason. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## topstroke

cant wait for geneva in june george


----------



## Jim Stedke

Bulldog1149 said:


> When you run offshore type inline boards, do you typically use both snaps and lock the board to the line, or do you use one snap and an eyelet and let the board drift back?
> 
> 
> 
> When using snap or inline weights the rule is 1oz. 20 ft from the lure will increase the dive curve 33%. I have seen people say to use a lead from 6-20-50 ft. Does this affect the 33%, also what affect does it have to go from 1oz to 2 oz? would it be 66%?


 Snap wts are so speed dependent that I think the 33 % is only an estimate at 2 mph. We troll faster than that 90% of the time, and are around 2.7 more often then not in warm water (over 65 degrees).

The closer to the lure the snap wt is, the more immediate and radical it's effect. We run them at 6' alot, and we run the same wt. on all rods on that side, to minimize tangles. Our estimate for added depth is 1' for every 1/4 oz of wt. and we don't run heavier than 2 oz very often, but we aren't in 75" of water either.

Snap wts. create alot of vertical swim on a lure, and like Dipsys create a situation where you know your lure working in a range of depths (like +5' & -5') from your target depth. 

Hope this helps and sorry for the delay, but we were in Columbus last night meeting our new Granddaughter Lucy. Mom & baby are doing fine 7#-10ozs & 20" long. 

Good luck.


----------



## Fishers of Men

Congratulations Jim. I know you enjoyed that.


----------



## blue dolphin

Congrats on being a grandpa Jim. Does that mean your going to be a baby sitter more and less fishing lol. Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## Jim Stedke

Grandma is such a superior baby sitter .... I'd be like me fishing against Kevin Van Dam in a bass tourny.


----------



## fishingguy

Congtats Jim! She's a keeper!


----------



## Bob Why

Congrats Jim. That's one for Grandpa's lap not the wall.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Grandchildren: God's reward for not killing your kids (no matter how much they had it coming).


----------



## KaGee

Jim Stedke said:


> Grandchildren: God's reward for not killing your kids (no matter how much they had it coming).


Oh man can I relate! LOL!


----------



## jakelex

hi Jim, thanks for sharing your wisdom.. it shortens the learning curve for guys like me that doesn't spend many days on Erie....

when you mention vertical swim of up to 5ft + or - the target is that based on 2mph? 

If im understanding this then my scenerio is right... you tell me, If I am trolling at 2mph with 100 ft of line out and know my crankbait is 20ft deep then by adding 1 1/2 oz 6ft ahead that would put me at 26 ft deep with 100ft out????? Is that right? 

What kind of increase and decrease in speed do you think it would take to get 5ft either side of the target depth. I can see how this would be an effective break line technique keeping shorter leads and eliminating leadcore.

thanks in advance.. 

anyway to weight a jet to get some vertical swim??


----------



## Rik

Crongrats Jim...I think what Jim was saying is if you target 20 feet @ 2mph with a snap weight,then your lure will run from 15-25 feet,inside lines will drop a little and outside lines will raise a little as your boat does turns, due to speed changes, your outside line speeds up as you turn and the inside line slows as you turn.I wouldn't replace leadcore rods with snap weights but add to your arsenal of depth control with them.You can run 1 rod with a snapweight at a given depth and fish another rod at the same depth with another depth control device(dipsey,jet or leadcore) and the fish may show a preference for 1 or the other even though they are running the same lure at the same depth.Has anyone else seen this as well?


----------



## Jim Stedke

jakelex said:


> hi Jim, thanks for sharing your wisdom.. it shortens the learning curve for guys like me that doesn't spend many days on Erie....
> 
> when you mention vertical swim of up to 5ft + or - the target is that based on 2mph?
> 
> If im understanding this then my scenerio is right... you tell me, If I am trolling at 2mph with 100 ft of line out and know my crankbait is 20ft deep then by adding 1 1/2 oz 6ft ahead that would put me at 26 ft deep with 100ft out????? Is that right?
> 
> What kind of increase and decrease in speed do you think it would take to get 5ft either side of the target depth. I can see how this would be an effective break line technique keeping shorter leads and eliminating leadcore.
> 
> thanks in advance..
> 
> anyway to weight a jet to get some vertical swim??


 Rik is right.

I don't really know how much my trolling speed varies but I know it's enough to cause significant depth changes, even when I'm trying to minimize it. If you purposely vary your speed I'd say 2 tenths would be plenty (up & down for a total of 4 tenths variation). I'm sure a simple zig-zag pattern would cause more change than that. 

Weighting a Jet will cause the vertical swim, but you're taking a tangler and making it a super-tangler. The weight needs to be attached to the line a foot or so ahead of the jet, attaching it to the jet will kill the chances of the jet flipping over.

Weights are both a pain and good tool. The best way to get a grip on them is to just start playing with them. 

Hope this helps, it is a non-exact science. Good luck.


----------



## 2CatchEyes

Jim if you spray paint your jets and dipseys black, will the paint on them effect the way they run?


----------



## SportAnglerMan

Jim:

This spring I am going to test out my new inline planer boards on Lake
Erie out of Cleveland and I was wondering when I am trolling deep crankbaits
such as Reef Runner of shallow Husky Jerks with inlines do you use any 
flurocarbon leader or do you attach directly to the lure with a ball bearing 
swivel. I decided to give 12lb Big Game a try for my first year to see how it does.


----------



## Jim Stedke

2CatchEyes said:


> Jim if you spray paint your jets and dipseys black, will the paint on them effect the way they run?


No, not at all. I spoken with many who have done it, and not 1 has mentioned any problems.


----------



## Jim Stedke

SportAnglerMan said:


> Jim:
> 
> This spring I am going to test out my new inline planer boards on Lake
> Erie out of Cleveland and I was wondering when I am trolling deep crankbaits
> such as Reef Runner of shallow Husky Jerks with inlines do you use any
> flurocarbon leader or do you attach directly to the lure with a ball bearing
> swivel. I decided to give 12lb Big Game a try for my first year to see how it does.


 I use a crosslok round bottom snap (about 5/8ths of an inch long). No swivel and no leader. Make sure you tune those Reef Runners.


----------



## Bulldog1149

Jim,

Are reefrunners notorious for tuning problems. I know from musky fishing, I have had lures than tuned great and some that were so finicky that I ended up not running them. I have a large batch of deep RRs ready fro order adn I was just curious I they are tuning friendly lures.


Congrats on the grandkids. I would be so sweet to be able to play with my kids and then just return them when I have had enough. No seriously though. Taking a 5-8 yr old fishing is one of the most momerable moments of my life. I am blessed with 6-8-10 yr old boys and they all have the outdoors bug. Congrats again Jim.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Bulldog, Reef Runners can be tricky to tune, here's a copy paste from a previous thread:

Reef Runners have a built in horizontal hunting action. That's kinda like saying they are not going to track perfectly straight and true. A slight variation in speed will often cause the lure to dart left or right momentarily. This is a wonderful trigger for any following fish and frankly I believe it is what makes the lure so effective. 

So how do we tune a lure that has a built in horizontal hunting action???

You start with the lure beside the boat at trolling speed, with around 10' of line out. Pull the lure and watch to see if wants to hang too far left or too far right. Using needle nose pliers or the Reef Runner lure tuner, bend the line tie in the bill just slightly the opposite way the lure is running. (running left - bend right or the reverse). Keep making tiny adjustments until the lure pulls fairly straight. 

Now rip the lure forward with the rod, such as would happen if the board was coming off a wave. The lure will likely kick right or left. Pull it several times and make tiny adjustments untill you get it to kick both left and right about equally. 

The secret is to sneak up on the sweet spot, and not rack the line tie back and forth several times. To do so weakens it and yeilds a lure that can't be tuned.

The time you give spend with your kids, is some of the most important in your life.

Good luck, good fishing and COME ON SPRING!!!


----------



## K gonefishin

I'll add a little emphasis that when you put the lure out 10 or 20 ft make sure you do this to the side of the boat standing so you can see the lure then follow the steps Jim mentioned, you DO NOT want to do this behind the boat while trolling the turbulant water coming from the hull and prop of either your big motor or kicker motor won't give you a true represenation of how the lure will run when it goes out to catch fish. I like to reel the lure up a little quickly it should come directly to your rod tip not off to the sides. The lure will act different at trolling speed than 1 or 2 mph faster while cranking, if it's good cranking it's very good trolling. :B:T

When Crank fishing I keep the Reef Runner Tune a Fish around my neck on the lanyard it comes with, that way it's always there and you can tweak the bait til you get it right.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Great and important point. I try to not leave out small details out, or leave room for misinterpretations, but sometimes clearifications are needed. 

Many thanks, for this & all the rest.


----------



## Buckeye Ron

I'm sure a simple zig-zag pattern would cause more change . 

Jim,
How far do you zig before you zag ??

Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Jim Stedke

Buckeye Ron said:


> I'm sure a simple zig-zag pattern would cause more change .
> 
> Jim,
> How far do you zig before you zag ??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron


Great question, The answer is only as far as you need to accomplish what you want. 

In most cases you'll want to continue the new course until the boards have reestablished their "normal" positions. That can be from 40 seconds to 5 minutes or more depending on your speed, your drop lengths, your technique. 

I'm not trying to be cute. Most of the time you'll want to experiment with the time intervals, and let the fish tell you what they want.

Good luck and good fishing


----------



## Tommybouy

Jim Stedke said:


> Tommybouy,
> Way before we started trolling, in the 70s (holly moley that's like 35 years ago) we cast wt forwards exclusivly. And some of our best days were when we could work a 5 count, or a splash count (no count at all). So we've known about high fish for a long time.
> 
> Trolling for high fish became possible with the advent of planer boards, and we've been doing that for nearly 20 years.
> 
> I'd have to check some of my old portfolios to confirm dates, but that's close.
> 
> Man I must be gettin old!!!!
> 
> Come on Spring.




Hi Jim; 

So the advent of boards led to trolling higher while casters in the 70's were catching at all depths. Thanks for the tidbit; I love to here about the past and it helps me appreciate what past family wouldve experienced and compare the industry to today. Sorry for my delayed gratitude that work thing took 65+ hours of my time this week! Thanks for the good offseason material! You said it; Come on Spring!


----------



## Jim Stedke

Grandma is getting anxious (to see Lucy) we'll likely be in Columbus for the rest of the weekkend. 
See ya Sun night.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Mom & Lucy are doing well, went home yesterday afternoon, so we came home last night.


----------



## reeleyes

goldchip vs platinumchip any one know diff between them and is it worth upgrading have lowrance and if i do upgrsde any way of saving waypoints from gold chip


----------



## Jim Stedke

Yes you can down load the old waypoints and load them into the new card, but you need the "stuff" to do it. Good dealers will have the ability to assist you. 

IMO The 3d stuff is not that important to fishing, but it is sure cool looking if you want to show off to you dock mates.

Good luck & good fishing.


----------



## BFG

> IMO The 3d stuff is not that important to fishing,


Agree! I think some of this stuff has gotten to the point of identifying sucker fisherman rather than identifying fish! lol

Here's another for ya' Jim...

What releases do you use off of your towline? My buddy switched from the Lauverick releases to the little yellow Offshore (not sure of model) and shower curtain rings last year. 

Way easier...and no little dogear on the clip for the line to get wrapped on windy days.


----------



## W A L L E Y E 1

Ok, I have a question about drifting for suspended walleye. I usually drift in 30-35 fow with a 3oz. bottom bouncer. I can catch the fish on the bottom but what technique do I need for catching the walleye that are suspended around 20fow or so? Should I drift with a smaller inline weight? What size? Or a different method? I use harnesses when we drift. I know I'm leaving alot of fish in the water when we strictly use bottom bouncers and not go for the suspended ones but wasn't quite sure how. Thanks


----------



## K gonefishin

reeleyes said:


> goldchip vs platinumchip any one know diff between them and is it worth upgrading have lowrance and if i do upgrsde any way of saving waypoints from gold chip


Not all units can run platnium chips if they can you have to be sure your software is up to date. They have 3-D views with ariael overlays at a certain zoom range. Check out you tube for some video's...neat stuff that's for sure.


----------



## reeleyes

thanx kev just wanted some opinions laid off and bored come on april 17 first year at hetfest cant wait


----------



## Jim Stedke

BFG said:


> Agree! I think some of this stuff has gotten to the point of identifying sucker fisherman rather than identifying fish! lol
> 
> Here's another for ya' Jim...
> 
> What releases do you use off of your towline? My buddy switched from the Lauverick releases to the little yellow Offshore (not sure of model) and shower curtain rings last year.
> 
> Way easier...and no little dogear on the clip for the line to get wrapped on windy days.


 We use the cheap brightly colored plastic clip (yellow, green, blue, red), but I must added that you need the red rubber bands to use these clips. They are called crape rubber bands and are stronger than the normal tan colored bands. 

Good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

W A L L E Y E 1 said:


> Ok, I have a question about drifting for suspended walleye. I usually drift in 30-35 fow with a 3oz. bottom bouncer. I can catch the fish on the bottom but what technique do I need for catching the walleye that are suspended around 20fow or so? Should I drift with a smaller inline weight? What size? Or a different method? I use harnesses when we drift. I know I'm leaving alot of fish in the water when we strictly use bottom bouncers and not go for the suspended ones but wasn't quite sure how. Thanks


 If you're drifting the amount of weight needed will vary with every change in the wind. If you're going to still be running bouncers, I'd stay with a lighter (1 to 1-1/2 oz wt) and let out more line. Start with 40' and add 10' every so often, untill you contact the bottom or the fish, then set up accordingly. I think Blue Dolphin's rule is the harness will be at 1/2 your drop length with 1 oz at 1 mph.


----------



## meatwagon

Not to change the subject,but I have a question about running cranks with 40/10 powerpro.What pound test should I use for the 50ft.leader of flouro that attaches to the braid?Do you figure in the 50ft.leader different than you would just regular dive curve?Thank you for answering my questions!


----------



## Jim Stedke

meatwagon said:


> Not to change the subject,but I have a question about running cranks with 40/10 powerpro.What pound test should I use for the 50ft.leader of flouro that attaches to the braid?Do you figure in the 50ft.leader different than you would just regular dive curve?Thank you for answering my questions!


 I preferr to run cranks on std mono w/ just a snap. But you can use a flour leader & super braid. 

And yes if you use 10#, you figure the leader as part of the regular dive curve.

The super braids seem to catch more air and they can bag out in front of the tow line (with big boards) which can lead to line wraps and problems. 

Good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

I preferr straight mono w/ just a snap. But if you run super braid & flouro. carbon I'd go w/ 10# leader and figure like the reg dive curve.


----------



## meatwagon

What pound test for mono?With snapweights and braid do you just use regular pinchpad or wrap the pinchpad around once?How about rubberbands with the snapweight?Thank you.


----------



## Jim Stedke

meatwagon said:


> What pound test for mono?With snapweights and braid do you just use regular pinchpad or wrap the pinchpad around once?How about rubberbands with the snapweight?Thank you.


 Because I believe strongly in staying above the fish, I use 12# Big Game which is a little larger dia. than 10# XT, and thereby keeps the lure a little high than the chart depths. Line I think is a matter of personal preference, and I don't believe that you need to use exactly what I use. 

I use a rubber band for attaching snap wts to mono, but they slide on braid. 

If you have the snaps w/ the pin in the ctr of the pad, they'll stay on braid, but without wrapping they'll slide.

Hope this helps. Good luck.


----------



## BFG

> If you have the snaps w/ the pin in the ctr of the pad, they'll stay on braid, but without wrapping they'll slide.


One can also purchase the metal clips that come on the front Church Walleye boards and use them to keep Snap Weights in place while trolling with braided lines.


----------



## Fishin Musician

Here is one for you Jim:
Can you troll with Bottom Bouncers? I fish the central basin and always thought that you could use a warm harness and a bottom bouncer trolled very slow would work. My fishin buddy doesn't like the idea....What do you think? I felt that there is suck little structure out there that they would 'bounce' along the bottom and not get hung up. 

I really enjoy your on line seminar...thanks to all!


----------



## Gju42486

Fishin Musician said:


> Here is one for you Jim:
> Can you troll with Bottom Bouncers? I fish the central basin and always thought that you could use a warm harness and a bottom bouncer trolled very slow would work. My fishin buddy doesn't like the idea....What do you think? I felt that there is suck little structure out there that they would 'bounce' along the bottom and not get hung up.
> 
> I really enjoy your on line seminar...thanks to all!


for sure, especially the last two years when they were glued in the mud. Get some 8 ozrs and go at it 

You could also use them for suspended fish if you wanted to, instead of running a dipsy for them, just drop the BB down- you might have to play with the lead lengths but it will work, Gary also teaches this or at least mentions it at his seminars.

I got a dozen 8 ozrs on order now for this summer 

With my luck, the walleye will decide to suspend all year and i wont need em. I like when they are in the top 45 foot of water


----------



## WFD1369

hey guys here is a question about harness tying a just purchased 20lb berkley vanish flourocarbon I've heard pros and cons anybody who can way in on this would be greatly appreciated since im still new at this . thanks again for all the great info


----------



## K gonefishin

WFD1369 said:


> hey guys here is a question about harness tying a just purchased 20lb berkley vanish flourocarbon I've heard pros and cons anybody who can way in on this would be greatly appreciated since im still new at this . thanks again for all the great info


If you buy a Berkley Florocarbon buy the Pro Grade in the gold box, Vanish is aweful line, I wouldn't use it if I were you. Seaguar is the best out there.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Seaguar or P-line leader material is what I'd use, for Dipsy harnesses or in-line / bouncer harnesses. Stiff and tuff stuf that resist twisting & spinning up.


----------



## BFG

> Vanish is aweful line, I wouldn't use it if I were you


+1

Not a good experience here either.


----------



## WFD1369

thanks guys for the info can't wait to start fishin come on spring


----------



## lyman68

Has anybody tried the seaguar red label 100% floro for tying harnesses? It's only 11$ for 175yds of 20lb.


----------



## Papascott

Jim Stedke said:


> Because I believe strongly in staying above the fish, I use 12# Big Game which is a little larger dia. than 10# XT, and thereby keeps the lure a little high than the chart depths. Line I think is a matter of personal preference, and I don't believe that you need to use exactly what I use.
> 
> I use a rubber band for attaching snap wts to mono, but they slide on braid.
> 
> If you have the snaps w/ the pin in the ctr of the pad, they'll stay on braid, but without wrapping they'll slide.
> 
> Hope this helps. Good luck.


Jim, I may be wrong but I am pretyy sure 12 lb big game and 10 lb XT are both the same diameter at .014. 

Here is a coupon/rebate if you need any more line for the year. Pretty good deal at 6 dollar rebate for buying 2 spools.

http://www.berkley-fishing.com/media/File/09424009BigGame_6Coupon.pdf


----------



## Jim Stedke

lyman68 said:


> Has anybody tried the seaguar red label 100% floro for tying harnesses? It's only 11$ for 175yds of 20lb.


I have not, but my guess would be that it's soft and flexable line for spooling reels, and that would make it less desirable for harnesses. Just my best guess.

Good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Papascott said:


> Jim, I may be wrong but I am pretyy sure 12 lb big game and 10 lb XT are both the same diameter at .014.
> 
> Here is a coupon/rebate if you need any more line for the year. Pretty good deal at 6 dollar rebate for buying 2 spools.
> 
> http://www.berkley-fishing.com/media/File/09424009BigGame_6Coupon.pdf


Scott, I tried to look up the dias. up but couldn't find them, so I'll take your word for it and stand corrected. (actually I'll stand just probably corrected .... that means my head is bowed, but not as far as if I were totally corrected) LOL. Thanks for the coupon, that makes a good deal even better.

Good luck & Come on Spring!


----------



## 10fish

Ok, question from 2nd class , upper deck seating.....
If your only option was taking out on head boats, what 3 lures/rigs would you take? Colors /sizes for spring?

Thanks from the cheap seats


----------



## Jim Stedke

10fish said:


> Ok, question from 2nd class , upper deck seating.....
> If your only option was taking out on head boats, what 3 lures/rigs would you take? Colors /sizes for spring?
> 
> Thanks from the cheap seats


 If the boat is going to jig, I'd take 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4 oz Purple hair jigs w/ stingers, depending on the wind. (April & 1st 2 wks of May)

If they're going to cast, after the above dates, I'd take Flippin harnesses 1/2-3/4 oz (the captain will tell you what color and wt).

Hope this helps, and good luck.


----------



## Doubles

I know this is primarily an Eye thread, but to keep things going, what about Smallies and Perch? I know the primary tactic for Perch seems to be shiner minnows on a splitter, but are there any specifics? Use a jigging spoon or anything (without hook) above it? Mono or Wire spreaders? other tactics?
For Smallies I've heard a lot about drop shotting with various soft plastics but not much else. I assume there's a lot more to it? Softcraws maybe? Sorry if I am hijacking, if so I'll start a new thread, but I read through all of last years and just wanted to keep this one going since everyone seems to know quite a bit and I'm an Erie newbie.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Perch Wire spreader with 2 hooks or mono "Crappie" rig with 3 hooks. That's up to you. 

The jigging spoon with an snelled dropper can be effective and often produces a bonus walleye or 2. 

Search perch or smallmouth, and I think you get plenty of hits.


----------



## Gju42486

im a big fan of the ole petes jiggin perch spoon.

We found that ALOT of the jumbo 13-14 inch perch were actually hitting the weight so we added a small #4 aberdeen hook on the split ring.

then, a standard tru-turn red snelled hook below that.

Bounce the weight in the mud and its like sweet sweet perch music.


----------



## Rik

Jim,I talked to your brother at the boat show and he said with snap weights he caught more fish with mono than with braid after trying both lines.What is your opinion on why?Has anyone else seen this as well?He was kinda busy so I didn't get his explanation...I was thinking of snapping my normal dipsey leader (about 7') onto my braid then rubberbanding the snapweight there.This way I don't have to invest in seperate rods and reels when I want to run snapweights and harnesses on my inline planer boards.If the dipseys and spoons aren't popping I could just remove the dipsey,reconnect leader to the main line(50lb power pro) rubberband my weight on the mainline and slow things down a little and put the harnesses down and out off the boards.Opinions on this are welcome...I fish mostly from Geneva to ashtabula...thank you


----------



## Jim Stedke

Rik, He was talking about crankbaits not harnesses (he never runs slow enough to fish harnesses). So I don't think you need to worry.

Instead of leaders why not make some 7' harnesses and run an inline wt instead of a snap wt.

Realize that when you say slow down, your speed range w/ #5 Colorados is .8 - 1.7mph.

Smaller blades or willows would allow faster speeds (up to 2.3)

Make sure you put a good ball bearing swivel ahead of the harness.

Hope this helps, and good luck.


----------



## meatwagon

Hey Jim have you ever slow trolled a slow death rig with inlines or snapweights?I have used this rig with bottombouncers just wondering.Thanks.


----------



## Jim Stedke

I never even seen a slow death hook. We power troll open water on Erie and I doubt that I'll ever have the need.

Nothing against the technique, just doesn't fit our fishing.


----------



## Rik

Yes,could run inlines as well..keeping the snells short so I can use the harnesses off the dipseys as well.Willow harnesses off the dipseys so can still fish say 2.0 to 2.3 mph.Gonna go to the snapweights or inlines to slow things down if I need to.Just take the dipsey off and snap leader to the braid,put on weight and run those harnesses out with the inline board.Do you think I should run a snubber between the leader and braid with the braid having no stretch on this setup?I always run one off my dipsey,in fact bought some off your brother at the boat show...Also do you think the short snell with a swivel 6'' in front of these slower running harnesses will bother the fish?I'm talking 1.0 to 1.5 or so...


----------



## The One

Doubles said:


> I know this is primarily an Eye thread, but to keep things going, what about Smallies and Perch? I know the primary tactic for Perch seems to be shiner minnows on a splitter, but are there any specifics? Use a jigging spoon or anything (without hook) above it? Mono or Wire spreaders? other tactics?
> For Smallies I've heard a lot about drop shotting with various soft plastics but not much else. I assume there's a lot more to it? Softcraws maybe? Sorry if I am hijacking, if so I'll start a new thread, but I read through all of last years and just wanted to keep this one going since everyone seems to know quite a bit and I'm an Erie newbie.


I like to run a 8" fluro leader to a snelled sz 4 aberdeen. Above the leader I thread on a 3/4 oz egg sinker, followed by a red bead to a barrell swivel. I drop the weight until it hits bottom then reel up enough so that as the boat lifts with the waves I am tapping bottom with the sinker. I feel for any changes in line tension and set the hook when I do.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Just want to bump this.


----------



## Cloud9

Jim:

To keep this great discussion going...

You've mentioned in previous posts the use of markers to add/modify color to available lures to match the hot color of the day. My question is, what type of marker do you use for this application? A simple permanent magic marker? Dry eraser marker? 

Simply curious as it seems to be a great idea. Thanks in advance. 

Jason


----------



## Gju42486

Cloud9 said:


> Jim:
> 
> To keep this great discussion going...
> 
> You've mentioned in previous posts the use of markers to add/modify color to available lures to match the hot color of the day. My question is, what type of marker do you use for this application? A simple permanent magic marker? Dry eraser marker?
> 
> Simply curious as it seems to be a great idea. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jason


jason, paint markers work great! and they are available at all craft stores.

I know some use regular permanent magic "sharpie" markers as well.


----------



## Papascott

One suggestion about the markers. Do not keep permanent markers in a sealed case with plastic cranks or even jets and dipseys. I had the fumes soften the platic to the point where they all warped and were all ruined. They do work great for adding color though.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Cloud9 said:


> Jim:
> 
> To keep this great discussion going...
> 
> You've mentioned in previous posts the use of markers to add/modify color to available lures to match the hot color of the day. My question is, what type of marker do you use for this application? A simple permanent magic marker? Dry eraser marker?
> 
> Simply curious as it seems to be a great idea. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jason


Jason, Permanent markers and paint markers both work well. Permanent marker color can be removed with nail polish remover. But it will also soften the lures original paint if it is not clear coated. Markers also workon spinner blades.


----------



## Kino

Something of a little different question, but wonder what the threshhold is on being SAFE with the waves and wind on erie???? I plan on going to the port clinton/lorain area in mid july and was wondering what to watch for on the weather forecast. I have a Lund 1825 explorer and don't wanna get in trouble!


----------



## Jim Stedke

Kino, What you need to watch out for is anything that makes you uncomfortable, because being uncomfortable is only a step away from panic, which is what causes most boating fatalities. 

As your experience increases and your comfort level increases, the water you and your boat can handle will increase. 

Your boat can handle 5 - 6' waves, with ease, but getting around because so uncomfortable and time consuming that few want to mess with it. For starters I'd say 2 - 3s or 3 - 4s max, and build up from there. 

If you're staying there, most often the wind will lay in the afternoon, and you'll have an opportunity to get out in the evening (which is awesome).

Be safe and have a blast.


----------



## Cloud9

Mr. Stedke:

Possibly another difficult question to answer as it is too generic, but I will post anyways in hope of some response.

After reading through M. Martin's book, he noted he typically spends up to an hour using his electronics before wetting a line. He notes that he will typically search out several pods of baitfish and mark those points and fish the areas in between the pods. 

My question to you is *how much time do you spend searching before dropping in a line?* This question may have more to do with new waters as I assume the search is much quicker on waters you know. Perhaps this answer may vary base on the time of year as well? I typically have had no patience in this regards and drop a line as soon as marks appear without knowing the true type of species, etc.

Thanks again for any response. 

Jason


----------



## Jim Stedke

Jason, My brother runs a charter boat and typically spends 30 - 45 minutes looking around before setting lines, if he hasn't been fishing in a few days, or if he feels the fish have relocated.

Now to look around efficiently you must have electronics that will mark fish at cruising speed or on plane.

His attitude is he needs to know not only where some fish are, but also where the best situations are, and he can surly cover more ground at 30 than he can at 2.5 mph, thus he is saving time by knowing what's happening in the area.

I'm giving you his way because, I'm too impatient and will likely set up on the first decent marks I find, trust my instincts if I need to go looking. 

You are right about time of year and unfamiliar waters, but you need to work on having a feel for what you are marking. We are never positive but with a good fish finder, you can be and should be able to be fairly sure of what is under you. 

Very good question .... Thanks and good luck.


----------



## Kino

Newbie here and also wanted to say what an EXCELLANT thread. You guys helping us out is amazing and I want to say thankyou guys...ALOT!!!


Now, back to fishing...What would be your top 30r 4 crankbaits/color in middle july and why???


----------



## BFG

Kino..

I might add in regards to weather that you need to watch for approaching fronts, as that will often cause increases in wind/wave due to the unstable conditions that occur in the atmosphere. Now...fishing prior to a weather change can sometimes be lights out...but just be careful. 

Typically in July you'll need to worry about nothing until 4:00pm in the afternoon...pop up thunderstorms and such..and they do pop up in a HURRY...

Was out by the Turnaround late last July on a steamy afternoon. Lake was mirror flat...air was sticky...radar showed nothing when we left the dock. We whacked 4 quick fish and then noticed a small patch on the radar...and the clouds starting to stand straight up. 

By the time we got the starboard side board in, the waves had built to 4'ers...and they got bigger. 

Nasty...


----------



## Jim Stedke

Kino said:


> Newbie here and also wanted to say what an EXCELLANT thread. You guys helping us out is amazing and I want to say thankyou guys...ALOT!!!
> 
> 
> Now, back to fishing...What would be your top 30r 4 crankbaits/color in middle july and why???


Top 3 or 4 for the islands area in mid-July right?
Cranberry Crusher (pink lemonaide on bare naked) 
Purple white tiger
the new Fire Perch
& Eriedescent

the colorized nakeds have proven to be excellent lures in various water conditions, the white based purple white tiger has been a go to for us for a couple years, and Eriedescent or maybe cheap sunglasses are always good in the islands in summer.

I'll say it again, it is much MUCH more important to be at the right depth, than it is to have the hot color of the day on your line.

Good luck


----------



## Fishers of Men

Watch for a waterspout:










Or maybe this, time to GO!


----------



## Kino

Jim Stedke said:


> Top 3 or 4 for the islands area in mid-July right?
> Cranberry Crusher (pink lemonaide on bare naked)
> Purple white tiger
> the new Fire Perch
> & Eriedescent
> 
> the colorized nakeds have proven to be excellent lures in various water conditions, the white based purple white tiger has been a go to for us for a couple years, and Eriedescent or maybe cheap sunglasses are always good in the islands in summer.
> 
> I'll say it again, it is much MUCH more important to be at the right depth, than it is to have the hot color of the day on your line.
> 
> Good luck


Thanks for the reply Jim. What are your baits though??? Reef Runners?? Shad Raps?? What sizes?? It would be cool if the local experts here could make a "sticky" as to what baits vs. the time of year, kinda like a must have to cover most situations at certain periods of the year. Me being from an area with NO walleye, I don't know if I need to troll crankbaits, drift fish with jigs, erie deries or what!!! Also, what about the night time fishing there in mid-late july???


----------



## Jim Stedke

Kino, Yes fo trolling 800 Reef Runners deep divers. I looked for an old reply to copy and couldn'tfind it so I'll wing it The nakeds are a must Purple Barely Naked, Fire Perch, Cranberry Crusher, Tuitty Fruitty.Then white based colors like, Barbie, Huckleberry, Purple Hot Tiger, Emerald Shinner, Watermelon, Lamicakes, Pink Panties. Naturalcolors like Eriedescent, Cheap Sunglasses, Rainbow Trout, Perch. Flourescent colors like Fire Tiger, Trailer Trash Pink, Kriptonite, Bubblegum. Prism colors like Black Prism, Gold Prism, Chartruse Orange Prism, Blue Prism and lastly chromes like Golden Shiner, Metalic Watermelon, Silver Bullet, & Clown.

I'm sure I've left some real good ones out, but that's a start.

Being a rookie let me emphasize that tuning is crutial, a real must.

Night fishing in the summer is a reef top or points on the shoreline deal, and it can be good, minnow& shad lures are the mainstays.

Good luck & come on Spring.


----------



## jakelex

how does the above equate to water color? which lists work in clear and stained and muddy?

thanks


----------



## Networthy

Hey Jim it's Garett,
I started a thread in the NW Ohio section asking on tactics for jig trolling, which only got me scolded by guys who didn't take the time to read the entire post. I know that this is not likely to be your niche but I was wondering if you had any tips. I am planning to fish the Maumee in the next few weeks and last year I stumbled across some fish suspended in 20-25 fow north of Rossford. Since I can't pull cranks this time of year I'm trying to spread my wings and learn something new. Any ideas would be helpful ie; size and depth to distance ratios.
Thanks


----------



## Jim Stedke

Garett, I don't have any ratios, but I know that with a 3 or 4" curl tail on a jig won't go very deep with any speed at all. Is there enough current to drift there? If not you may want to use your trolling motor and try to get a 45 degree line angle, and experiment on drop lengths. I'd start w/ 3/4 oz jigs and a 30' length. Good luck and thanks for the question.


----------



## Jim Stedke

jakelex said:


> how does the above equate to water color? which lists work in clear and stained and muddy?
> 
> thanks


 Historically the best colors for muddy water are Mud Minnow & Texas Red, For visibility of 18"- 2' I'd use bright or fluorescent colors, 2' - 5' the natural colors, cleaner prisms, and cleaner still the metallics. This is for high fish, like we'll have in April.

Sun or clouds and depth need to be considered when fishing deeper fish in warmer water.

Hope this helps and good luck.


----------



## Kino

Okay, I will pick up some RR 800s in several colors...Any other must have cranks??? I would assume that fish suspended off the bottom or feeding higher in the water column that trolling cranks is the ticket in july, but what if you are marking fish on the bottom??? Troll 1' off or switch to drifting harness rigs???


----------



## The One

As far as RR go what would be a good go to size for dipsey's or inlines? 700's or 800's?


----------



## Jim Stedke

The One said:


> As far as RR go what would be a good go to size for dipsey's or inlines? 700's or 800's?


 In-line wts can be run with anything. They simple add depth to any presentation.

But deep diving lures are a no-no behind Dipsys or Jets (only short billed shallow diving lures) along with the spoons & harnesses.

I run 700s behind Dipsys often, but they pull harder than the spoons, so your line out needs to be longer (I usually add around 15 percent more line to the Dipsy).

The Little Rippers (500s) are effective as well in June & July. They need only 5 percent more line.

Good luck.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Kino said:


> Okay, I will pick up some RR 800s in several colors...Any other must have cranks??? I would assume that fish suspended off the bottom or feeding higher in the water column that trolling cranks is the ticket in july, but what if you are marking fish on the bottom??? Troll 1' off or switch to drifting harness rigs???


Kino, Drifting harnesses is effective (some use bottom bouncers and drag harnesses near the bottom). Some charters use this presentation more than any other. Being a newby, I'd be prepared to utilize it. 

If nontarget species become a problem, move to a new location. Expect to need around 3 dozen crawlers per fisherman or more (for a full day's fishing).

Hope this helps,and good luck.


----------



## 2CatchEyes

Jim I was on xtackle looking for the cranberry crusher and couldn't find it. Does it go by another name?


----------



## Spaniel235

Try Cranberry Creek marina....I know Capt. Woody has them.


----------



## Jim Stedke

It's Pink Lemonaide on Bare Naked, and may be a Cranberry exclusive, so call Woody as stated above ph 1 877 464 0172.


----------



## Kino

Jim Stedke said:


> But deep diving lures are a no-no behind Dipsys or Jets (only short billed shallow diving lures) along with the spoons & harnesses.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.



So if you can't troll crawler harnesses or spoons with dipsys or jets then how do you troll them??? Add weight in front of them???


----------



## Jim Stedke

Spoons, harnesses and short billed lures CAN be trolled with Dipsys.

Only Deep Divers are a no no. 

Sorry for the confusion


----------



## ezbite

jim, while your on reef runners, what are your ideal conditions to run the lights out reef runner 800? im guessing dirty water, but id like your opinion.


----------



## Jim Stedke

Transition water is where I think of them. And when I think there may be stained water layered under cleaner water. Visabilities of 12 - 24", but they are effective in also in cleaner water situation (say up to 5' visability). 

We used so many white based lures last year that the black based ones where often over looked. 

The times when they've worked best for us was in the fall in cooler water that wasn't as clear as we'd have liked, so it stands to reason that they should be good in the Spring as well. Hummm, I think I need to add some lure to my Spring boxes. 
\
Thanks>


----------



## blue dolphin

Ill add to that on lights out . Cloudy days with vis less then 3ft were great for this color along with rasberry dolphin. I was alway taught from some pretty respected pros long ago that if there feeding on shad that reefs with spots is the ticket seemed to work for me so far on that theory. Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## Jim Stedke

Yep, Spots are good for high fish (shad).


----------



## Cloud9

Mr. Stedke:

Thanks again for this great thread (and your previous ones). Terrific information here.

In many of your previous posts and threads, you have mentioned the importance of bait being present to help locate walleye. My question is simple, however, the answer may not: 

What factors help determine the location of bait? What are their preferences?

Hope you can provide some response or extend the conversation with additional questions. 

Thanks.

Jason


----------



## Jim Stedke

Jason, The bait is after it's prey (zoo-plankton) and currents concentrate that. Wind is the driving force of currents, so if you were able to know all there is to know about wind and currents, you'd be able to predict the idea fishing locations. (they'd be in the eddies of the strongest currents in the area).

That's why the bar off Vermilion is such a big deal, it creates eddies and concentrates the bait, by concentrating the plankton. 

So simple to state and so complex to understand.


----------



## Kino

How often do you guys snag and loose lures/harnesses???


----------



## Jim Stedke

We are fishing open water for suspended fish, so snags are infrequent and the lures we loose are lost on fish (break offs). Probably between 5 & 10 a year.


----------



## Guiddo

Jim, other than price, what is the primary difference between fluorocarbon leader material and fluorocarbon line - when do you use each


----------



## Jim Stedke

Guido, If you are looking for a technical answer, I'm not your guy, but if you had both in your hands the leader material would much stiffer and harder, and the line for filling reels would be softer, stretchier, and more flexable. 

The price difference is substantial so I'm sure there are major differences in the way it is made, but I don't know what they are. Maybe someone here can enlighten both of us. 

Leader material is used to stand the abuse of being attached to the lure in saltwater situations, so you know it take abuse.

Flourocarbon line, is made to fill reels and not cause problems in that situation. So less memory, less stiffness, more subtle line. 

Good luck.


----------



## K gonefishin

Seaguar Flouor is the leader in the market and it's my preferered brand, check out this chart this should help you a little bit. 

http://www.seaguar.com/Line_Chart.html


----------



## Kino

When you guys run planer boards, do you set the board to release?? Are they set the same with cranks and harnesses???

Also, I ordered a mold from do-it to make up bottom bouncers, and I thought I read where Jim stated that he hardly ever went over 2 ounces for them??? So now I need to tie up some harnesses...What would be a good all around narness to make up?? I was thinking about #4 colorado single gold blade and orange beads (not sure on size or how many?) with #2 gamakatsu octapus and #6 treble (bottom hook) with a 6' flouro leader in 25 lbs. test??? This is for bottom bouncing.

For trolling I was thinking the same except double willow leaf blades (size??) Also, I have NO idea what type of weight/sinkers you guys are using to troll harnesses. A picture would be a thousand words but I know you guys are busy, so I was wondering if the trolling sinker molds that do-it sells would work??? I read where you guys are using "clip ons"???? What weights do you guys use mostly??

Again, I want to say THANKS for teaching us and taking time out of your day to post here... Truly AWESOME!

I will be on the lake the third week of july in the vermilion are so this is my first trip and trying to get ready NOW!!!


----------



## Jim Stedke

Kino, Here's a link to a good harness thread, Cabin Fever leads to Inspiration & Creativity 

Our boards have the snapper releases and stay on the line.

Bead size is 6mm, and most use a #5 Colorado & #4 Willow

Bouncers the boards will sink w/ 4 ozs so heavier bouncers are are run like Dipsys (no board) . Off Vermilion 4 is likely the heaviest you'll need but guys use 6s and heavier over east. 

In Line wts or snap wts 1, 1-1/2, 2 & 3 is all you need for Vermilion. In-lines can be bead chain sinkers, but they at a minimum need loops on both ends. Good ball bearing swivels are a must for trolling harnesses. without them you'll have a twisted up mess.

Gary Zart & K gonefishin have much info in here that will help you. Search thier name w/ harnesses and you'll get an education.

Good luck and thanks for the questions.


----------



## blue dolphin

Kino your description on how you want to make your harness if just about perfect. I make mine out of 20lb flouro. The inline weights we use are the bass pro xps keel weights they come in half ounce up to 3 ounces. The colors i like are perch and rainbow trout. Just recently a few other companys have these one is a guy name ******* on here ( mark) he started making them and selling them and they look nice. Ray at the Rodmaker shop just showed me a new company that he got that makes them and they look awesome and are going to be alot cheaper than bass pro weights. Size of blades are # 5 and 6 colorados to 6,7,8 Indianas. You can go nuts with colors but colors from R&R blade company and sliver streak blade company in blade color backs. Gold, copper, White, and chartruese are all necessary for lake erie trollling. You can get these blades from local bait shop like erie outfitters or Rodmaker shop. I be more than happy one day to meet with you and show you some of my favorites to get ya started if you want. Bead size common that we use 6mm. In Chatruese, orange , red , Pinks etc. Number of beads 6 will be good for most blades until you get to 7 and 8 indianas you will have to add a few more to keep the blade from hitting the front hook.I use alot of single blade applications for the most part until mid and late summer when double willows take off and then switch to them. The company mentioned above also make willows in the same color combos that work really well on erie. Use the same set up as you did for single harness just add another set of beads and a clevis and you will be good to go. I dont know how to do pics but there was a post on here under creativy leads to inspiration. If you scroll and find that post you will see alot of pics. Good luck and hopes this helps. Gary Zart Blue Dolphin.


----------



## true2plue

Here's the thread that Gary and Jim were talking about!!
http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=112427&highlight=Creativity


----------



## Jim Stedke

Thanks gotta figure that out.


----------



## blue dolphin

Me to Jim im not to good on a computer just know the basics to get me by Gary


----------



## Kino

Thanks guys for helping me out. I checked in my Do-It mold catlouge and they actually carry the keel trolling weight. What size do you use the most??? They offer two different molds. One has 3/8,1/2,5/8, and 1 ounce (4 cavity) and the other has 1 1/2 and 2 ounce (only two cavity). I was thinking the heavier would be the way to go???


----------



## blue dolphin

Kino you want 1,2 and 3 you may have to just buy some in those weights. You want to make sure those are the weights you have. Because in the Precision Trolling book that tells you how deep your getting with what ounce your using to what lead length you have is based on 1 2 and 3. So it will help you tremendously if those are the weight sizes you have. Good luck Gary Zart Blue Dolphin


----------



## Kino

Jim, what dipseys and jets do you reccommend??


Also, I read where the 30 PP braid is poular line for this. The 30 PP has an 8lb. diameter and the 40 power pro braid has a 10 lb. diameter. Why not just run the 40 to match the "precision trolling" charts in the book??


----------



## Jim Stedke

Western Basin to Huron size 0 Dipsy w/ ring, Huron East size 1 Dipsy w/ ring.
The size 40 Jets are we use most often east or west. 

Colors for Dipsys or Jets are black or clear.

go w/ 40# PP, that's fine. Alot of us filled our reels before it was available.


----------



## Kino

Jim Stedke said:


> Western Basin to Huron size 0 Dipsy w/ ring, Huron East size 1 Dipsy w/ ring.
> The size 40 Jets are we use most often east or west.
> 
> Colors for Dipsys or Jets are black or clear.
> 
> go w/ 40# PP, that's fine. Alot of us filled our reels before it was available.


Thanks for the SUPER quick reply and help Jim. BTW...do you realize how much money you have cost me in the last week??? :T

Also, I was @ gander Mountain tonight and the red color PP was 6 bucks cheaper on the 300 yard spool vs. the green color so I went with that. I figured that since the majority of the stuff connected to it would have a flouro leader I thought the line color would'nt matter. Opinion??


----------



## Fishers of Men

Kino said:


> Jim, what dipseys and jets do you reccommend??
> 
> 
> Also, I read where the 30 PP braid is poular line for this. The 30 PP has an 8lb. diameter and the 40 power pro braid has a 10 lb. diameter. Why not just run the 40 to match the "precision trolling" charts in the book??


More on that was back here, post 111
I mainly run 30 jets out west.

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=110582&page=4


----------



## Kino

blue dolphin said:


> The inline weights we use are the bass pro xps keel weights they come in half ounce up to 3 ounces.



Okay, so these keel weights are way different than the "clip on" that offshore tackle sells. My understanding ( and please correct me as I need it!!!) is the clip ons are for the 50/50 method as outlined in the precision trolling. I understand this as it seems pretty simple....Let out 50', clip on weight and let out another 50 and theres your depth. With the keel weights, how do you connect them and where??


----------



## Kino

Fishers of Men said:


> More on that was back here, post 111
> I mainly run 30 jets out west.
> 
> http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=110582&page=4


Thanks FOM...These post are otu of whack for me to read from any other forum I have used....I must have something jacked up and I can't seem to fix the settings...For me, page 1 is really the LAST page and when I do click on it I have to scroll to the bottom of the page to read the first post on it.


----------



## Fishers of Men

You can change that in your user settings. In the top left of this page.
Go to edit options and change it to linear.


----------



## Kino

Fishers of Men said:


> You can change that in your user settings. In the top left of this page.
> Go to edit options and change it to linear.


Got it fiwed...sent ya a PM


Sorry for highjacking the thread guys! Back to fishing now!

What about spoons??? What are some of your guys favs???


----------



## Jim Stedke

The red PP is fine (it will likely fade, but that is no big deal either).

keel wts are used as in line wts and attach between the main line and the leader. They can be clipped on with a snap (or rubber band) at any point in the line, but most a more concentric sinker for snap wts, to minimze the potential for twisting.

Spoons: The colors most often heard on the radio are Michigan Stinger colors, so get one of their color charts,. I have more Michigan Stinger "Scorpion" (that's the small one) than any other, but there are many good spooons, Silver Streak, Pa's, Ole Pete, and some use blanks and add prism tape for color. Jann's Netcraft Proeye spoons have worked well for me the few times I've tried them.

Some shy away from Michigan Stingers because of an ongoing holding paint problem, but they are still a mainstay.

To me a spoon is a spoon, and size is more important than the brand, and even size can be fudged a little. 

Spoons don't get hot until the end of May / 1st of June so you've got some time.

Sorry about the money outlay, have you thought about golf ??? LOL


----------



## Fishin Musician

Hey Fella's, What about colored hooks for perch. J fish swears on the gold, I kinda like the red. Is there any info out there that says that one color is better then the other?


----------



## Jim Stedke

Red line is great bcause it disappears under water. Red hooks are great because they simulate blood. I'd say if either or both give you confidence, they are worth the money.

I haven't heard of either being preferred by perch fishermen. But I've used red trebles on some Reef Runners because I just think they look good. In fact there are a few colors that come with red hooks. 

Do your own test and let us know how it goes. 

Good luck.


----------



## Fishers of Men

Jim,
Forget wave direction for this question. 

What direction for presentation do you prefer to troll a current flow? 
And why?
Thanks


----------



## Jim Stedke

Fishers of Men said:


> Jim,
> Forget wave direction for this question.
> 
> What direction for presentation do you prefer to troll a current flow?
> And why?
> Thanks


Van, 
What I really want to do is find the edge of the current, and work along that edge through the eddies that would form and bring food to the walleyes. 

Trying to work in a current is tricky and to do it properly nearly requires a Fish Hawk or Subtroll that tells you speed through the water (not over ground) of your lures at depth.

Converging currents are better yet because they show themselves as scum lines and are easy to see and read. 

I'm not trying to dodge your question, but it is rare to successfully work active fish in a current, and rarer still to be able to hold the pattern together.

Thanks for the question. Is the boat in?? 

Best wishes, Jim


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## Fishers of Men

Goin in the 17th.

Thanks Jim, It is tricky staying with and working the edges for sure, but if you get the program together it is a good thing. 
Reading the surface currents is one thing, I guess I should have detailed the question better. 
I was mainly questioning bottom currents, along/against/across etc. 
Example: 
When the Dipsies on one side give a tell tale flow direction below, (like a cross current) the change of maneuver of the boat should position them to run correctly, then you would be working along the current to your best...but going along side, with or against making a difference on hits? Just speaking directions. 
Assuming the other variables, speeds and such are right.
I like to work the under tow! 
Weird thing is, I have had decent action crossing the darn thing off of of Conny.

Do you prefer the Depth Raider over the Cannon speed temp?
Seems like a lot of Captains are real happy with the Depth Raider, price wise and all. But I believe the cannon gives a lil more?


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## Kino

How about tattle flags??? You guys run em and do you run them in the up or down position??


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## Jim Stedke

Kino, I use OffShore boards w/ Tattle flags (theirs only work from up to down). Got the flag does make them more visable so I'd probably run the Church boards that way as well.


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## Jim Stedke

Van, Rich's 32' Marinette has never been East of Cleveland, so when I've been east of Fairport it was w/ Steve. The further east you go the more currents need to dealt with, and I've never had to on a daily basis. 

The only experience I have is with the Fish Hawk, and it was pretty hard on batteries. Reading the Dipsy lines is what I'd be likely to rely on, just to save the added aggravation.

Van, I'm going to get into stuff that I know you're aware of, but some may not be.

Currents are 3 dimensional. Think of them like river, but flowing through water w/ no banks. They can be wide and shallow in one area and narrow & deep a few hundred yards away. They form eddies above, below, and on both sides. 

Now add to this the fact that in deeper water there may be 2 or 3 different currents at different depths, flowing in different directions; and that they seem to appear out of nowhere or end wherever they want, and you can see that we are trying to deal with a complex situation. 

I've seen currents flip 4 Dipsys and roll them into one nice, not so neat, bundle. And most often when you try to repeat a pass something has changed enough to move he fish. 

All this leads (pushes) me to the edges. Things are just too volatile inside the flow. 

My brothers & I have had the "which way is the best way" discussion, repeatedly, and my best guess is that it depends on the how fired up the fish are. One day they may be most likely to hit the lure when it approaches head on; and the next they may only attack the lure if it surprises them from the rear. 

This is fishin. Do what works today, and hope it works tomorrow, but when it doesn't just try something different. 

Thanks for the question and good luck in the upcoming season.


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## Fishers of Men

Thanks Jim,

You are very much appreciated.
It is some of these finer points that can get the hair pulling out, started at times, wondering why?. 

The Depth Raiders claim to get 225 hrs out of the 9V.
http://www.kelloutdoors.com/Depth Raider Speed and Temperature Monitor.htm


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## Jim Stedke

Van, Your kind words are appreciated. Man I goota get out!!! May go over to Indian Lake and play w/ the toy walleyes.


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## jakelex

hey jim I got another question. I went to the reefs on 3/14. I saw a handful of boats all doing the jig thing. The water temp read 30-31 degrees and went broke skim ice on the way out. Would you still have trolled? Have you heard of any decent trolling reports yet? I wanted to try you tips and technques for early season trolling but couldn't convince anyone else on the boat to try. We ended up getting our limit on pimples and hair jigs but was curious if trolling would still be your approach given this years early lake access and good water color


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## Fishers of Men

Jim Stedke said:


> Van, Your kind words are appreciated. Man I goota get out!!! May go over to Indian Lake and play w/ the toy walleyes.


You are more than welcome, i am chomping at the bit also especially after three weekends of talkin fishing, all the seminars have been great, nice turn outs and now i just want to get after the boat. I have one more seminar scheduled the 28th on Cranks and the Nite Bite at Ravenna marine then it's going to be off to the races to get her in the water. I am going to leave it in Vemillion on the way home from turtle weekend. So...whenever your ready! :T :T :T


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## Jim Stedke

jakelex said:


> hey jim I got another question. I went to the reefs on 3/14. I saw a handful of boats all doing the jig thing. The water temp read 30-31 degrees and went broke skim ice on the way out. Would you still have trolled? Have you heard of any decent trolling reports yet? I wanted to try you tips and technques for early season trolling but couldn't convince anyone else on the boat to try. We ended up getting our limit on pimples and hair jigs but was curious if trolling would still be your approach given this years early lake access and good water color


Jake, Nice ! You can'tcomplain about limiting.

The good reports came this weekend. If the water had 2' visibility & if I saw high scattered marks. I would have trolled. I've had success way early.

Kgone & Het know you can catch em in March trollin.


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## Jim Stedke

Van, I lost your phone # wben my old phone died. PM it to me please.


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## Jim Stedke

Hey guys, Here's a useful link showing temps and a GPS grid, so you can determine where the warmest water is near where you anticipate fishing. These early (cold water) fish are greatly attracted to and bunch up in warmer water (that's why they get stacked in the dirtier water ... it's always a degree or so warmer). 

http://www.coastwatch.msu.edu/erie/e11.html

These are updated at least daily, so you'll have to check every day.

One more tool some may not think of.

Good luck and be safe.


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## Buckeye Ron

Jim,
That is a great tool !!
Thanks,
Ron


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## Jim Stedke

Ron, The trick is always to find the warmer water that isn't dirty.


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## Buckeye Ron

Jim Stedke said:


> Ron, The trick is always to find the warmer water that isn't dirty.


Gottcha


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## Jim Stedke

Checkout the satellite view of 3/27/09 16:36 GMT ans explain the fingered mud lines that are barely visible through the clouds near the island (looks like the roots of a tree). Then look at Lake St Clair and notice the same stain pattern out in the middle of the lake.

Anyone can to try and explain this to me. I watch these views pretty closely and have never seen anything like this before.


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## true2plue

It kind of looks like the current flow between the Bass Islands.


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