# Carp in the mud flats



## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Does anybody else chase carp on the fly in mud flats, either in river backwaters or lakes/ponds? I was out on Dow Lake in my kayak Saturday looking for golden bonefish. Early on there were not many fish in shallow, but in the last 90 minutes of light they were everywhere. The problem is when they are not tailing, it's pretty darn hard to spot them! I am essentially push poling my kayak at a very slow speed, watching close for any sign of a fish. I spooked so many it wasn't funny. Either I'd get too close to them before I saw them or, in 2 cases, I actually hit them with the boat.  I targeted several fish, only got two strikes and one "chase." The first strike, somehow I missed on the hookset. Shortly after that, I stripped a fly past a fish and it turned and went at the fly, then rejected it. I finally hooked one, got it to the kayak and got ready to try the new Rising Lippa4Life tool (figured it would be good practice before the salt trip) and the fish surged, popping the hook free. I barely had the fish hooked, surprised it stayed on as long as it did, but it was only 2-3lbs. 

Does anyone else chase them in muddy areas? I'm wondering what flies you folks might be throwing, mainly what color? I keep thinking with the water so stirred up, black is going to be the easiest thing for them to see. A black backstabber was what I was using Saturday. I have most of my carp flies in 3 colors: rust/brown, olive, and black. Do any of you use other colors in dirty water? I can't imagine they can see much in there when they are feeding actively.


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## Intracoastal (Sep 12, 2009)

You'll have an easier time using the FishGrip with nearly any SW gamefish compared to a carp. Carp's mouth's are so small and they seem to always retain one last charge back home when you try to get invasive on them. 

Sounds like you've got a great spot. Maybe spin up some white deer hair flies and chum with bread! I agree with you color-wise, as far as selection, but I assume that right now they aren't turning down any of those tiny crayfish they come across (not necessarily what they're sucking all that mud for though), so I would tie on dark brown first. Backstabbers and wooly buggers are my go-to's as well. Perhaps tie in a sliver of orange somewhere on the fly, carp seem to be down with that in my experience. I've also caught them on pink, but that was a stream situation where i thought they were eating scuds...

Have you blind casted and retrieved extreeeemly sloooooowwly?


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

If they're deep enough that they don't disturb the surface at all, and you can't see them because of clarity, then it's really tough.

But are you looking, i.e. really, really looking, for subtle surface disturbances? I find that as I get better at this, I spot carp from farther and farther away that I used to because I notice very subtle ripples in the surface, bubbles, etc., instead of looking for the carp itself or any part of it that might break the surface.

I've also started to get pretty good at seeing clouds of mud in deeper water. I think it's pretty tough to know where to put a fly for a carp mudding in deep water, but it does mean there's an actively feeding fish there, so what I often do is just wait there. Sometimes, that fish will eventually move into shallower water nearby or come up in the water column, where I can then get a shot.

These are the things I'd recommend if you at least have some visibility. A month ago or so I tried a reservoir backwater where visibility was about a half inch...eventually I just gave up. In hindsight, I wonder if maybe a bigger, bulkier fly might have worked - maybe something covered in rubber legs, rabbit fur, or hackle (or all three). Who knows? 

I feel your pain. I don't like crystal clear water for carp fishing, but I do like some visibility!


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Intracoastal: I didn't even really get to try to lip that carp with the tool. I grabbed it, and about the same time saw the fish was barely hooked. I just started to extend my arm to try to lip the fish, it thrusted its tail, game over! 

Andrew: I am finding them most of the time by bubbles, actually. The bad thing is, though, not all of them are making bubbles. I think some of them may just be cruising and not necessarily feeding. The issue is that I will be moving in on a fish, or where I think there is a fish, spook one I had no idea was there, and it spooks everything in a 50' circle! I am going to take a break from the saltwater tying tonight and see what kind of bulky creature I can come up with for the muddy water. I did see a few tailing fish Saturday, and the fish I hooked was tailing, but I probably only saw 3-4 fish tailing all night. And one of those I was creeping up on, spooked another fish between the tailer and me, which spooked the tailer. There are a lot of fish in this mud flat, but generally they aren't that big. The fish I hooked that night was on my 7wt and I hardly gave it any line and never put the fish on the reel. The biggest I saw that night was maybe 4-5lbs, max.

Thanks for the input, if I can come up with something tonight I'll post the pics here tomorrow.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I can see a carp fart from a hundred paces.


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

fallen513 said:


> I can see a carp fart from a hundred paces.


I can smell it from 150.





(Smells like canned corn.)


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

OK, I was inspired by a saltwater bonefish pattern last night, even though my end result is not too identical to the original pattern. The original was a shrimp pattern for bonefish that used a mix of calf tail and hackle as a tail, a broad body of spun deer hair, and lead/brass eyes. My carp version is as such:

Hook: Mustad 3366 #6
Eyes: brass/lead dumbbell
Tail: marabou and rubber legs
Body: ice chenille, trimmed

I decided on tightly wrapped ice chenille over deer hair for two reasons: 1) ice chenille should sink faster and 2) I suck at spinning deer hair.  I tried to wrap it as tightly as possible and trim it with scissors to be flat and broad to create a chunky profile. This was easier on the black version because I had large ice chenille, on the brown/orange I had medium only, which hardly could be trimmed because it is a shorter material.




























Pretty simple tie, hopefully the fish like it. It's a small package, but a bulkier profile than my other carp patterns. I'm hoping they can locate it better in dirty water, and the chunkier profile hopefully gets viewed as a crawfish.


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## drralphy (Aug 23, 2011)

fallen513 said:


> I can see a carp fart from a hundred paces.


the carp whisperer!


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## jhammer (Jun 13, 2011)

Awesome flies cream!


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

If they don't catch anything tonight, I will blame the earthquake.


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## jhammer (Jun 13, 2011)

I didn't feel anything, but I think I was driving at the time.


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## Intracoastal (Sep 12, 2009)

Awesome looking flies Cream! I love that little black one in the first photo.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

It tested well. 










Also got to do a little pre-salt trial run with the Rising Lippa Special Blend tool. It is pretty easy and effective, or at least it was last night!










I got that fish on the black version. I had another fish before that, when I thought I made a bad cast to a fish that was feeding towards my kayak, charge the fly after I stripped it right past its head. Not sure what happened, I think I set too soon, and I missed. After I landed the first fish, I hooked another on a sweet take in about 6" of water. The fish's back was out of the water where it was. I hooked that fish, decided to be a moron and take an in-fight photo, and while I was doing that I lost the fish. Those dumb*** attacks get me every now and then.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Here's a thought...if I added something like, say, scent to a fly, would I go to fly fishing purgatory?


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## Intracoastal (Sep 12, 2009)

Nice pics! Looks like a lot of fun. I didn't realize you were talking about the Lipp4Life, and I thought you were talking about the plastic, floating "FishGrip." So that's where my comments were coming from.


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

TheCream said:


> Here's a thought...if I added something like, say, scent to a fly, would I go to fly fishing purgatory?


There's no such thing...but would YOU enjoy it as much?

I don't scent my flies, but I do sometimes chum an area with corn if I'm trying to get good video (say, if the spot has perfect lighting, background, etc., but lacks consistent numbers of carp). But without a doubt, I prefer to find feeding fish, stalk them, and make the cast. I'd use a scented fly under some circumstances, I suppose, but I know that I personally wouldn't enjoy it as much.

I've come to similar thoughts about quillback. Turns out there are all over in my stream, and I picked up a couple by putting the fly in front of them and waiting until they vacuumed it up. But I realized right away that the fact that they don't seem to actually actively pursue the fly (at least they haven't for me) really takes away from the fun of it.

And that's what it's all about for me.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Andrew S said:


> *There's no such thing...but would YOU enjoy it as much?*
> 
> I don't scent my flies, but I do sometimes chum an area with corn if I'm trying to get good video (say, if the spot has perfect lighting, background, etc., but lacks consistent numbers of carp). But without a doubt, I prefer to find feeding fish, stalk them, and make the cast. I'd use a scented fly under some circumstances, I suppose, but I know that I personally wouldn't enjoy it as much.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm, not sure, I may have to give it a shot and get back to you.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I have had some pretty exciting takes over the last couple years...but one of the most memorable, violent & exciting ones was a big carp smashing a piece of dog food on the surface, my first carp on the "fly". I could see the moment that the fish smelled the bait & did a 180.



I mean, we ARE talking about carp. Some trout guys would get their Simms panties in a bunch just for that simple fact. 

Why not let your spun deer hair fly sit in a can of cat food prior to heading out?


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

My other thought was adding a rattle, but the smallest glass rattles I have are still too long to get away with on a hook shank the size I use for carp.

I have chummed areas, too, and will do that again with no second thoughts. I'll probably try scent, at least to see if it makes a noticeable difference. In cleaner water I don't see it being necessary, but in the muck I see it maybe making a difference.


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## Intracoastal (Sep 12, 2009)

fallen513 said:


> I mean, we ARE talking about carp. Some trout guys would get their Simms panties in a bunch just for that simple fact.


I'm not a trout guy, so I don't know, but I hear that those Simms panties are wicked comfortable! Not to mention breathable, moisture wicking, cool in the summer heat and warm in winter, and come in rainbow trout and tarpon scale patterns. They can also be used as a garter, a belt, or a hankerchief, can filter your urine into potable water, and of course, are a much smarter investment than whatever Hanes BS you're wearing to the river...


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Intracoastal said:


> I'm not a trout guy, so I don't know, but I hear that those Simms panties are wicked comfortable! Not to mention breathable, moisture wicking, cool in the summer heat and warm in winter, and come in rainbow trout and tarpon scale patterns. They can also be used as a garter, a belt, or a hankerchief, can filter your urine into potable water, and of course, are a much smarter investment than whatever Hanes BS you're wearing to the river...


Why can't you slide a UV Buff up over the midsection instead?


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Mark of the beast, just got it myself.


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

fallen513 said:


> I mean, we ARE talking about carp. Some trout guys would get their Simms panties in a bunch just for that simple fact.


That's true, for sure. The irony I see is that sometimes, these trout guys are fishing for pellet-fed stockies that were in a truck 15 minutes before, and these guys still turn down their noses at a carp fisherman.

I can understand, to a degree, why a west coast wild steelhead guy would poo-poo the Great Lakes fishery, or why the wild brook trout guy would walk a little taller than the rainbow stockie guy. But how somebody could think that fishing for freshly stocked rainbows is somehow more "pure" than fishing for truly wild, tough, big and challenging carp...well, that's a puzzle to me.

I think this guy had it right when he graphed the "Classy Index" for the various fish. Atlantic salmon and tarpon are, rightly so, way up at the top. But note where carp fall: just below speckled sea trout, and above suckers and gar. Stocked rainbow trout, however, just barely edge out bowfin to avoid the bottom spot. He had it right! 

http://lowbrowangler.com/blog/?p=595


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

That's a great site!


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