# Man cites law, cop backs down



## leftfordead88 (Oct 22, 2007)

Anyone see this yet?


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82615141/

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## tomb (Oct 9, 2004)

We just had this discussion at work last week. I was told Cleveland tickets people trying this for "inciting panic".


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

tomb said:


> We just had this discussion at work last week. I was told Cleveland tickets people trying this for "inciting panic".


Cites what, open carrying or rebutting the LEO for the illegal stop?


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

As I see it, the officer was responding to a public compaint and as I was listening to the response of the individual stopped I formed the opinion he was doing this purposely to get peoples attention as well as have a confrontation with law enforcement. 
Actions of this type do nothing but to bring additional attention to The Right to Bear Arms as well as the Concealed Carry laws which in turn excites those organizations and public officials that oppose those Rights and laws. 
The last thing I want is anyone to know I am armed and if stopped by any law enforcement officer, for any reason, my first action is to declare and provide any ID or permit requested.


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## leftfordead88 (Oct 22, 2007)

Shortdrift said:


> As I see it, the officer was responding to a public compaint and as I was listening to the response of the individual stopped I formed the opinion he was doing this purposely to get peoples attention as well as have a confrontation with law enforcement.
> Actions of this type do nothing but to bring additional attention to The Right to Bear Arms as well as the Concealed Carry laws which in turn excites those organizations and public officials that oppose those Rights and laws.
> The last thing I want is anyone to know I am armed and if stopped by any law enforcement officer, for any reason, my first action is to declare and provide any ID or permit requested.


 I agree, that anytime I am stopped I always promptly inform , then provide my ccw and drivers liscence ( even if I am open carrying ). It's easier to just comply and be on your way, that's how I always handle it..
But you have to admit the guy really knew the open carry laws and handled it in a mature manner



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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

Shortdrift said:


> As I see it, the officer was responding to a public compaint and as I was listening to the response of the individual stopped I formed the opinion he was doing this purposely to get peoples attention as well as have a confrontation with law enforcement.


100% agree... it was just too convenient that his camera was rolling so fast.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Cop was very respectful of the guy, and in no way forced the individual into anything. Many times people voluntarily provide police with ID, information even when they're not required to....probably why this video is "shocking" to some.

I'm all for open carry, ccw, done safely....but these videos of people "owning" cops is getting old. On the other hand, it seems that PDs across Ohio, the country, need to have a toolbox talk about open carry.


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

Concealed Carry is a bunch of bunk! Talk about moving society backwards. Guns belong no where except in the home and in the woods when hunting. 
OOPS, guess that's not what this thread is about... sorry.


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## MuskieLuv (Oct 29, 2007)

And here we go....:bomb:


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## dinkcatcher (Jul 4, 2009)

EnonEye said:


> Concealed Carry is a bunch of bunk! Talk about moving society backwards. Guns belong no where except in the home and in the woods when hunting.
> OOPS, guess that's not what this thread is about... sorry.


When you can convince criminals to leave them home then maybe well agree with you....


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## F1504X4 (Mar 23, 2008)

That guy is going to regret that video when he does get stopped for an actual violation! 


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## "chillin" (Apr 20, 2012)

EnonEye said:


> Concealed Carry is a bunch of bunk! Talk about moving society backwards. Guns belong no where except in the home and in the woods when hunting.
> OOPS, guess that's not what this thread is about... sorry.


If you dont like it you can always move to Canada eh.

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## OSUdaddy (Oct 18, 2010)

The guy was being a prick. Why hassle a cop just doing his job and behaving in a legal and respectful manner? Thankfully for the guy he was taping the incident as things could have turned ugly if not.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

I too think he was just out trying to get attention. Why screw with the good guys?


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

That is by far the most rediculous thing I have ever heard in my entire life!!! I will stop at that for respect of the good nature of this website.


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## MuskieLuv (Oct 29, 2007)

OSUdaddy said:


> The guy was being a prick. Why hassle a cop just doing his job and behaving in a legal and respectful manner? Thankfully for the guy he was taping the incident as things could have turned ugly if not.


First off the guy was not being a prick. He was within his right to do what he did and was never disrespectful and new the law better than the cop. Was it good judgemnet on his part, probably not but we all know he was trying to prove a point. In my opinion the cops did an ok job of hadling the situation other than the first cop didn't seem to know the laws. 

As for the taping of it, if that is the only thing that kept this event from getting ugly than that is just proof we have a real attack on our gun rights. This isn't the UK yet!!!


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

OSUdaddy said:


> The guy was being a prick. Why hassle a cop just doing his job and behaving in a legal and respectful manner? Thankfully for the guy he was taping the incident as things could have turned ugly if not.


If you just look at the video as just a chance encounter the civilian sounds like a prick, but he without question asked for, and was prepared, for this encounter and for that I consider him a ballsy patriot. He was doing exactly what he said, nothing wrong, and there was no way to demonstrate that fact to the officer without sounding like an ass, and I believe the nervousness in his voice made it worse. I'm not sure that I could maintain my composure like he did, nor could I act like a perceived jerk to an officer like he did, but I certainly applaud guys like him that have the balls to remind everyone, including the PD, what our rights are. This guy was clearly quite prepared and did everything right in my opinion. He restricted the Officer to only the information that he is entitled to by law, without any probable cause. Even Cops need to know what their limits are every now and again. Even though most have no need or desire to exercise the open carry right, as allowed in our state, if no one ever does it, it will quietly go away. So will many other laws if the people do not have the courage to occasionally remind the authorities how important our rights are. Historically it has been the people that exercise, demonstrate, and push our rights to the limit that have strengthened and preserved them for the rest of us. I don't normally support people that are seemingly acting like a purposeful jackass, but I would have this guys back for his courage and knowledge regarding open carry rights.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Kudos to him for taking his personal rights about RIGHT UPTO their "legal " limits, but if Ohio passes a law saying it`s now perfectly legal to walk up and snatch a whisker from a lion`s nose I`m NOT so sure I`m gonna try that 1 real soon...


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

OSUdaddy said:


> Why hassle a cop just doing his job.....


I think that's the point, the cop wasn't really doing his job, or seem to know his job. If the State Highway Patrol got a few calls that you were speeding, when you were clearly doing the speed limit, even while being observed by a Patrolman, would you still expect to be stopped anyway?


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## gerb (Apr 13, 2010)

well i dont really fault the officer or the gun carrier. but it does look like the guy was looking for a confrontation just to get some youtube hits on how he owned a cop on law-interpretation. if he just gave his license, he probably would have been on his way a lot sooner than sitting there arguing and waiting for a superior.


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## OSUdaddy (Oct 18, 2010)

It is my understanding that you can openly carry in Portland, but you need a carry permit to do so.

However, there seems to be some question on whether or not it can be loaded. If it cannot be loaded and if a concealed carry permit is required to openly carry the gun the officer had every right to stop him but did not carry on with his right to do so.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

Shortdrift said:


> As I see it, the officer was responding to a public complaint


Per the OAG, "Officers are not to automatically stop people observed exercising their right to open carry, based on a complaint call. Officers and dispatchers should carefully question informants when being dispatched on these types of calls to verify what allegations of further suspicious or criminal conduct, if any, the suspect is engaged in."

The problem is that officers are not trained properly. I am an ex LEO and this was never discussed while I was active.

Back in 2008 after a citizen was threatened with arrest for inducing panic, disorderly conduct etc. 

This information was sent out to Ohio Law Enforcement from the OAG office.

1. As a general matter of law, the right to bear arms is a fundamental, individual right guaranteed by Section 4, Article 1 of the Ohio Constitution.* This right, however, is not absolute, and is subject to regulation.

2. Beyond the rights granted by the Ohio Constitution, Revised Code § 9.68 provides that, unless otherwise prohibited by State or Federal law, any person may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition. Specifically included in this statute is the right to openly carry a firearm. See Revised Code § 9.68(C)(1). There is no requirement that the person first get a license, get permission or show any need prior to openly carrying a firearm.

3. Officer safety must always be a paramount concern and goal for peace officers. However, officers should not consider openly carrying a firearm as per se suspicious or criminal conduct. *Openly carrying a firearm does not automatically equate into a Disorderly Conduct (R.C. § 2917.11) or Inducing Panic (R.C. § 2817.31) charge.* To take this position would be tantamount to taking a position that a person may not exercise their statutory or constitutional rights without risking constant Terry stops or police arrest. This position is obviously problematic. Instead, the officer or the dispatcher needs to look at the totality of the circumstances. Is there reasonable, articulable suspicion that criminal conduct is occurring? What are the facts and circumstances, beyond the mere presence of a firearm, that indicate it is reasonable to suspect criminal activity?

Simply reacting to every single man with a gun situation as an automatic Terry stop or felony stop will clearly have a chilling effect on the exercise of these rights by citizens, thus potentially opening the officer and the department up to civil liability. *Officers and dispatchers should carefully question informants when being dispatched on these types of calls to verify what allegations of further suspicious or criminal conduct, if any, the suspect is engaged in. In a non-dispatch or informant situation, where the officer directly observes the conduct of the suspect, the officer should be ready to articulate what factors beyond the mere carrying of the firearm prompted the official police interaction with the suspect.*

But Cleveland continues to harass people both for Open Carry and CCW Cleveland has been overruled many times by the Ohio Supreme Court over their practice of charging CCW holders with not having the gun registered in Cleveland. State Law preempts a this but Cleveland ignores it.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

PapawSmith said:


> If you just look at the video as just a chance encounter the civilian sounds like a prick, but he without question asked for, and was prepared, for this encounter and for that I consider him a ballsy patriot. He was doing exactly what he said, nothing wrong, and there was no way to demonstrate that fact to the officer without sounding like an ass, and I believe the nervousness in his voice made it worse. I'm not sure that I could maintain my composure like he did, nor could I act like a perceived jerk to an officer like he did, but I certainly applaud guys like him that have the balls to remind everyone, including the PD, what our rights are. This guy was clearly quite prepared and did everything right in my opinion. He restricted the Officer to only the information that he is entitled to by law, without any probable cause. Even Cops need to know what their limits are every now and again. Even though most have no need or desire to exercise the open carry right, as allowed in our state, if no one ever does it, it will quietly go away. So will many other laws if the people do not have the courage to occasionally remind the authorities how important our rights are. Historically it has been the people that exercise, demonstrate, and push our rights to the limit that have strengthened and preserved them for the rest of us. I don't normally support people that are seemingly acting like a purposeful jackass, but I would have this guys back for his courage and knowledge regarding open carry rights.



+1 very well said sir.

And the comment about leaving the guns at home or the woods is fine, makes sure the criminals at least have a few targets left, as for me and my family we will not be one. They told us in our concealed carry class that open carry was legal but be preparred to be stopped, and possibly tickets for inducing panic. He also said make sure your weapon is concealed always, because all it takes is one person to see the grip, or even a print and you may be dealing with officers over nothing.


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## Silent Mike (Aug 9, 2009)

The guy may have come off as a prick because he sometimes interrupted the law officer. With that being said, he did everything right, and was very prepared, and polite for the most part. He even sited federal cases to back his point. Its not a personal thing with him and the cop, its business. He just didnt want his name mixed up in all of the legal sh** so he used the law to his advantage. Kudos to him for doing that, and hopefully the officer brushes up on his laws and what he is legally allowed to do.


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## JignPig Guide (Aug 3, 2007)

Let's bam bam shoot'em up all we can! 
Let's bam bam shoot'em up pow! 

Hold your gun-hold it up-as many as you can!
To save yourself from another American?


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## seapro (Sep 25, 2007)

Although it did come off with a bit of arrogance, I have no problem with a citizen standing up for his and our rights. 

Ohio tried to prevent CCW by stating that we already had open carry, so it wasn't needed. Luckily that argument didn't work. 

I often wonder what impact it would have on crime if those who concealed carry, would instead open carry. 

Very good information provided by Fisnfool that most people are not aware of.


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## Wow (May 17, 2010)

I think this altercation ended well. The officer was respectfull, but dilligent the whole time. The carrier was prepared to defend his lawful right. If we as a people demand this right, and it becomes law, then seeing it in action should not induce panic. It's the cost of freedom. I hope the officer would have displayed the same demeanor without a camera in his face.

The public needs to be educated about open carry as well as CC. Law enforcement must respect the right of law-abiding citizens to open carry wherever it is allowed by law.

I, personally, would rather not see people walking their dogs on the sidewalk with a firearm on the hip, but if we want a free society, 2nd ammendment included, I'm willing to go with the flow. Carry smart,--Tim


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## JamesT (Jul 22, 2005)

JignPig Guide said:


> Let's bam bam shoot'em up all we can!
> Let's bam bam shoot'em up pow!
> 
> Hold your gun-hold it up-as many as you can!
> To save yourself from another American?


This is how i feel.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

JignPig Guide said:


> Let's bam bam shoot'em up all we can!
> Let's bam bam shoot'em up pow!
> 
> Hold your gun-hold it up-as many as you can!
> To save yourself from another American?


Exactly, I think. No, wait, I guess don't understand what this means. Are you saying all Americans are peaceful, law abiding citizens, violent criminals are never Americans, or, we should not defend against, and just allow, violent crime committed by someone because they're American? This makes more sense to me "......to save yourself from any other man!"


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## crestliner TS (Jun 8, 2012)

couldn't agree any more!


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## crestliner TS (Jun 8, 2012)

That was awesome! The man broke no law and stood up for his RIGHTS as an American citizen. The cops need to act according to the laws of the state, simple. This cop overstepped his bounds period. You simply can not pull over, detain , search or arrest anyone without a VALID reason. Because I wanted to does not qualify.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

Amazing...... yep, it's legal to carry a gun openly in Ohio. But sorry, the guy in the video was being an idiot, plain and simple. As far as him siting Terry V Ohio in his lists of laws that protect him from being stopped. He was wrong. The US Supreme Court upheld the conviction of Terry by an 8 to 1 vote. Chief Justice Earl Warren said the policeman was within his rights to stop and question Terry based on suspicious activity. The guy on the video also cited DeBerry V US as another case that protected him. He was wrong again. DeBerry's gun was seized after his arrest. His being questioned and frisked was from the result of suspicious activity. If we were in Texas or Arizona, carrying a gun in plain view might not be suspicious. But it is in Ohio. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. It's suspicious. If you saw someone doing it, you'd be suspicious, yet we expect a policeman not to be suspicious? I used to trap, and I have hunted since I was an early teen (I'm now in my 50's) I am not against people owning guns or carrying guns. The guy was being an idiot plain and simple. 

I wonder what the posts would be like if the Chardon School shooter had been carrying his gun in plain sight and walked right by a cop without the cop asking him why he had the gun? I bet people would be screaming to high heaven about what good are cops if they aren't going to do their job.


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## crestliner TS (Jun 8, 2012)

you are missing the point completly!


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

crestliner TS said:


> you are missing the point completly!



No....... I'm not.


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## gerb (Apr 13, 2010)

was this vid taken in ohio? i thought i read somewhere else that it was in oregon?


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## Matulemj (May 29, 2012)

Here is my 2 cents after reading a couple posts. I have been recorded as a police officer. Is it illegal, no, but just make sure you are not getting in my way, because that is obstructing justice. I have had a jerk come up to me while I was having a pleasent conversation with a WWII vet and try to interrupt my conversation on purpose telling me that he knew his rights and that he was allowed to record me. I just smiled and said OK, and he moved on because he wasn't getting a reaction from me. I think the officer handled it well. The guy did not do anything wrong, but he was one of those guys that do things on purpose for a youtube video. You are going to get a**holes in every town. Fine, he wants to exercising his rights, kudos. However, when I get a call from concerned citizens saying there is a strange man with a gun, it is my duty to the people paying my salary to at least investigate, which is exactly what the officer did. It is a very frustrating thing to deal with on the job, dealing with people like this, but it comes with the territory, you have to have thick skin and smile!


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## Matulemj (May 29, 2012)

crestliner TS said:


> That was awesome! The man broke no law and stood up for his RIGHTS as an American citizen. The cops need to act according to the laws of the state, simple. This cop overstepped his bounds period. You simply can not pull over, detain , search or arrest anyone without a VALID reason. Because I wanted to does not qualify.


How? He did not arrest or detain him. And that is absolutely false, you can walk up to anyone and ask for consent to see their ID and do a street interview at anytime. This guy knew his rights and said no, which is absolutely fine. He did not pull him over, he was walking. There is no story in this video. A man knew his rights and exercised them, a cop knew his rights and exercises them. Both sides did everything the way the law intended it to be.


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## OSUdaddy (Oct 18, 2010)

Matulemj said:


> Here is my 2 cents after reading a couple posts. I have been recorded as a police officer. Is it illegal, no, but just make sure you are not getting in my way, because that is obstructing justice. I have had a jerk come up to me while I was having a pleasent conversation with a WWII vet and try to interrupt my conversation on purpose telling me that he knew his rights and that he was allowed to record me. I just smiled and said OK, and he moved on because he wasn't getting a reaction from me. I think the officer handled it well. The guy did not do anything wrong, but he was one of those guys that do things on purpose for a youtube video. You are going to get a**holes in every town. Fine, he wants to exercising his rights, kudos. However, when I get a call from concerned citizens saying there is a strange man with a gun, it is my duty to the people paying my salary to at least investigate, which is exactly what the officer did. It is a very frustrating thing to deal with on the job, dealing with people like this, but it comes with the territory, you have to have thick skin and smile!
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine



Well said from the shields view on the incident.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Matulemj said:


> Here is my 2 cents after reading a couple posts. I have been recorded as a police officer. Is it illegal, no, but just make sure you are not getting in my way, because that is obstructing justice. I have had a jerk come up to me while I was having a pleasent conversation with a WWII vet and try to interrupt my conversation on purpose telling me that he knew his rights and that he was allowed to record me. I just smiled and said OK, and he moved on because he wasn't getting a reaction from me. I think the officer handled it well. The guy did not do anything wrong, but he was one of those guys that do things on purpose for a youtube video. You are going to get a**holes in every town. Fine, he wants to exercising his rights, kudos. However, when I get a call from concerned citizens saying there is a strange man with a gun, it is my duty to the people paying my salary to at least investigate, which is exactly what the officer did. It is a very frustrating thing to deal with on the job, dealing with people like this, but it comes with the territory, you have to have thick skin and smile!
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


exactly... i pay taxes for LEO to stop people walking down the street carring a handgun and ask them whats up. I WANT THEM TO DO THAT!! IMO, in this political correctness world we live it, this guy was looking for trouble, he knew he'd be stopped. THAT, IMO makes him an absloute *******, theres a difference between open carry and smart carry. (CCW has absolutly nothing to do with this video, it was not concealed). people like this bring unnecessary attention to firearm owners, we hear it everyday that someone wants to ban our guns..... sure, he was within the law to walk down the street, but whats the point of provoking the police just for youtube?? i dont like it and for the record, if i see anyone walking down the street carring a gun, im dialing 911. too many crazies out there to ignore someone walking down the street with a Glock. how did that officer know this guy wasnt heading to the local hair dressers to kill his wife and hair stylist? its happened. im glad he stopped him.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

I don't understand why some here seem to be willing to hold a gun out as a somehow more deadly weapon than say a baseball bat. If a "crazy lookin dude" was walking down your street with a ball bat, brick, tire iron, etc. you'd call the cops? I don't get it. I guess that we've been trained to view a gun as meaning nothing but violence? People carry knives on their side, does that mean the public is in danger of a stabbing? If the convenience store on the corner gets held up with a 2x4 wielding assailant, would you feel somehow responsible because you saw someone earlier that day carrying a 2x4, but did nothing? Moreover, would the police feel compelled to stop a pedestrian carrying a brick in a sock? Do you guys think a criminal is going to open carry a firearm? If your intent on going down the street and killing Suzy the hairdresser, are you going to show everybody your gun first?

People and animals kill people, not guns. A gun does not automatically mean violence or crime. That's why it's our right, however threatened, to keep and bear arms. Like it or not, you are your own protector, with, or, without a gun.

You, your neighbor, nor the police have any idea who is going to kill who. Rat poison could be used to kill a lot more people than a gun, but, you can buy it at the grocery store. If I were to start shooting people, somebody, with a gun, or maybe without, is going to stop me. Rat poison in a fast food joint could kill hundreds, maybe thousands, and, I might never be caught. Lets hammer on the guns though. Easier, I guess. With all the right bad press, guns have become the poster child for violence. I could start posting stats, you know, about how high school sports, or bicycles, skateboards, and drunk drivers are more dangerous than guns, but then, I'm not taking the time. Educate yourself, but, bear in mind, high school sports only include those from grade 9 through 12. Guns belong to everybody. Breathalizer ignition lockouts standard for all 2013 cars, anybody?


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

"I wonder what the posts would be like if the Chardon School shooter had been carrying his gun in plain sight and walked right by a cop without the cop asking him why he had the gun? I bet people would be screaming to high heaven about what good are cops if they aren't going to do their job.[/QUOTE]

The kid would have been stopped because of his age qualifying as below the limit for having a gun and there is a the "Gun Free Zone" in regards to school property.

And in regards to the open carry instead of concealed carry, comment, concealed carry was passed so people could exercise their rights without causing others to freak out.

The guy in the video was being confrontational and, was actually ignorant of the facts in most of what he quoted. The information I previously posted does not mean an officer can not cruise by and stop to observe, it just means that he can not stop a person just because of a man with a gun in a holster call. In fact there was a Willoughby OH case where some of the officers involved were disciplined for their threats to arrest when no crime had been committed. Personally I view that even though open carry is legal, concealed carry is the way to go to prevent today's, every gun is a demon that will cause it's owner to go out looking for a gun fight, people from freaking out. Nation wide some street crimes have dropped just because of concealed carry.(ATF and FBI statistics.) This is because the bad guys do not know who is armed. In fact years ago in Florida there was a group that was following foreign speaking people out of the airport and attacking them off site. When arrested they stated they were targeting foreign speaking people because they new Florida citizens may be armed.

So in reality the people that choose to concealed carry are in fact making the streets safer for those who do not. This does not mean Concealed Carry License holders will protect you in an event. The propose is to protect their family and themselves. Keep in mind that when your life is in immediate danger and seconds count, cops are only minutes away. 

I really think this subject has been beat to death on the OGF site. There are many threads on it. Simple question is, if you can get trained and get the skills, ability and knowledge to protect your loved ones and yourself, why do some not chose to do so? Maybe because of a Militarily and Police background I have a different viewpoint. We go into what others run from. So it would be just natural to protect our families too. Imagine living in a country where you do not have that right. Then all you could do is cower in fear and wait to die. Another thing a lot of people do not know is that the Supreme Court ruled in the past that the Police do not have an obligation to protect you as an individual. They are their to try and protect society as a whole. This is done mostly by reports, investigations and arrests, after the fact.


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## Nikster (Mar 14, 2007)

Mushijobah said:


> Cop was very respectful of the guy, and in no way forced the individual into anything. Many times people voluntarily provide police with ID, information even when they're not required to....probably why this video is "shocking" to some.
> 
> I'm all for open carry, ccw, done safely....but these videos of people "owning" cops is getting old. On the other hand, it seems that PDs across Ohio, the country, need to have a toolbox talk about open carry.



Right, ............

But the guy in the video (IMO) a simpleton arse. He needs to wake up to the real world.

Nik,


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## Nikster (Mar 14, 2007)

FISNFOOL said:


> "I wonder what the posts would be like if the Chardon School shooter had been carrying his gun in plain sight and walked right by a cop without the cop asking him why he had the gun? I bet people would be screaming to high heaven about what good are cops if they aren't going to do their job.


The kid would have been stopped because of his age qualifying as below the limit for having a gun and there is a the "Gun Free Zone" in regards to school property.

And in regards to the open carry instead of concealed carry, comment, concealed carry was passed so people could exercise their rights without causing others to freak out.

The guy in the video was being confrontational and, was actually ignorant of the facts in most of what he quoted. The information I previously posted does not mean an officer can not cruise by and stop to observe, it just means that he can not stop a person just because of a man with a gun in a holster call. In fact there was a Willoughby OH case where some of the officers involved were disciplined for their threats to arrest when no crime had been committed. Personally I view that even though open carry is legal, concealed carry is the way to go to prevent today's, every gun is a demon that will cause it's owner to go out looking for a gun fight, people from freaking out. Nation wide some street crimes have dropped just because of concealed carry.(ATF and FBI statistics.) This is because the bad guys do not know who is armed. In fact years ago in Florida there was a group that was following foreign speaking people out of the airport and attacking them off site. When arrested they stated they were targeting foreign speaking people because they new Florida citizens may be armed.

So in reality the people that choose to concealed carry are in fact making the streets safer for those who do not. This does not mean Concealed Carry License holders will protect you in an event. The propose is to protect their family and themselves. Keep in mind that when your life is in immediate danger and seconds count, cops are only minutes away. 

I really think this subject has been beat to death on the OGF site. There are many threads on it. Simple question is, if you can get trained and get the skills, ability and knowledge to protect your loved ones and yourself, why do some not chose to do so? Maybe because of a Militarily and Police background I have a different viewpoint. We go into what others run from. So it would be just natural to protect our families too. Imagine living in a country where you do not have that right. Then all you could do is cower in fear and wait to die. Another thing a lot of people do not know is that the Supreme Court ruled in the past that the Police do not have an obligation to protect you as an individual. They are their to try and protect society as a whole. This is done mostly by reports, investigations and arrests, after the fact.[/QUOTE]


Again right on the button!

Nik,


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

I Fish said:


> I don't understand why some here seem to be willing to hold a gun out as a somehow more deadly weapon than say a baseball bat. If a "crazy lookin dude" was walking down your street with a ball bat, brick, tire iron, etc. you'd call the cops? I don't get it.


Sorry man, in this scenario most reasonable people will not view a brick, tire iron, ball bat or any other object in the same light as a fire arm. 

There are many activities in life that may be legal, but might not be very expedient for me to flaunt openly. Though it may be "lawful" to openly carry a firearm, our society is not willing to view this as a normal acceptable behavior.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

FISNFOOL said:


> The kid would have been stopped because of his age qualifying as below the limit for having a gun and there is a the "Gun Free Zone" in regards to school property.



You're absolutely right. I picked a very poor example for an analogy. Thank you for the correction. While its clear that some didn't understand the point I was trying to make..... you and others understand the point, and see the problem with someone acting the way the person in the video did. I can't understand how anyone could praise what the person in the video did. Yes he was standing up for his rights, but IMO he was doing it in the completely wrong manner. A manner that is far more damaging to the right to bear arms, than it is helpful. 

For those few that praised the man for what he did ...... If you want your gun rights taken away, keep praising this kind of action as a ballsy patriot, or a citizen knowing and exercising his rights. The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the grease. Sometimes it just gets tossed to the side in favor of another wheel.

All the guy in the video did was give the anti gun activists more fuel for the fire. And that my friends, is the point I didn't miss.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

KaGee said:


> Sorry man, in this scenario most reasonable people will not view a brick, tire iron, ball bat or any other object in the same light as a fire arm.
> 
> There are many activities in life that may be legal, but might not be very expedient for me to flaunt openly. Though it may be "lawful" to openly carry a firearm, our society is not willing to view this as a normal acceptable behavior.


That's right, but who, looking to do harm with a firearm, is going to openly carry it? They're not. That is why it's not right to call the police at the sight of a holstered firearm. What if that person is a concealed carry holder, but just got careless, and let their weapon be seen? This is all because peoples perception of guns have been twisted and distorted, the anti-gun lies are taking over, and it needs to change, before it's too late. The same people who will not say a word after watching patrons in a bar drink and then drive home, but they'll call the police at the sight of a legally carried firearm. I just don't understand.


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## Captain Kevin (Jun 24, 2006)

What would Matt Dillon do??? If L.E.O.'s were more like Matt Dillon, than the "Storm Troopers" they sometimes come off as, this country would be a whole lot better place.........and the prison system wouldn't be so over populated either. Back in them days, you run from the law, a Colt would be the judge, jury, and executioner.....................and we liked it that way!


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## Rmelz (May 24, 2011)

There are a ton of vids on youtube with guys doing this.


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## leftfordead88 (Oct 22, 2007)

I love the fact that people are taking time to know the laws thoroughly, but I hate the fact they are recording themselves for Internet popularity.

I carry to protect myself not to gain attention. 



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## Captain Kevin (Jun 24, 2006)

In my own opinion, open carry does more to deter crime, than concealed.


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## AC_ESS (Nov 15, 2008)

tomb said:


> We just had this discussion at work last week. I was told Cleveland tickets people trying this for "inciting panic".


they due, they have been sued numerous time and the SC has decided what they are doing is wrong 
http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/PIO/summaries/2010/1229/092280.asp

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/12/ohio_supremes_uphold_state_law.html


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## Mickey (Oct 22, 2011)

Wow! There is someone on this site who can spell.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

leftfordead88 said:


> I love the fact that people are taking time to know the laws thoroughly, but I hate the fact they are recording themselves for Internet popularity.
> 
> I carry to protect myself not to gain attention.
> 
> ...


And what these YouTube fools do not realize, they are sitting themselves up to get a hit in the back of the head to knock them out and steal their gun.

Exercise your rights because they are your civil rights. Post educational videos, and stay safe out there.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

when it comes to our rights to carry a gun, it does not give us the right to give up our common sense. just because you have those rights and know what they are doesnt mean to go out and provoke confrontation. i dont me for anyone to willing give up there rights. but it gains nothing for no one to hassale a cop for doing there jobs. they have to deal with enough real problems. just my opinion.
sherman


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## JignPig Guide (Aug 3, 2007)

sherman51 said:


> when it comes to our rights to carry a gun, it does not give us the right to give up our common sense. just because you have those rights and know what they are doesnt mean to go out and provoke confrontation. i dont me for anyone to willing give up there rights. but it gains nothing for no one to hassale a cop for doing there jobs. they have to deal with enough real problems. just my opinion.
> sherman


This is a very wise comment sherman51. I agree.


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## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

I Fish said:


> I don't understand why some here seem to be willing to hold a gun out as a somehow more deadly weapon than say a baseball bat. If a "crazy lookin dude" was walking down your street with a ball bat, brick, tire iron, etc. you'd call the cops? I don't get it. I guess that we've been trained to view a gun as meaning nothing but violence? People carry knives on their side, does that mean the public is in danger of a stabbing? If the convenience store on the corner gets held up with a 2x4 wielding assailant, would you feel somehow responsible because you saw someone earlier that day carrying a 2x4, but did nothing? Moreover, would the police feel compelled to stop a pedestrian carrying a brick in a sock? Do you guys think a criminal is going to open carry a firearm? If your intent on going down the street and killing Suzy the hairdresser, are you going to show everybody your gun first?
> 
> People and animals kill people, not guns. A gun does not automatically mean violence or crime. That's why it's our right, however threatened, to keep and bear arms. Like it or not, you are your own protector, with, or, without a gun.
> 
> You, your neighbor, nor the police have any idea who is going to kill who. Rat poison could be used to kill a lot more people than a gun, but, you can buy it at the grocery store. If I were to start shooting people, somebody, with a gun, or maybe without, is going to stop me. Rat poison in a fast food joint could kill hundreds, maybe thousands, and, I might never be caught. Lets hammer on the guns though. Easier, I guess. With all the right bad press, guns have become the poster child for violence. I could start posting stats, you know, about how high school sports, or bicycles, skateboards, and drunk drivers are more dangerous than guns, but then, I'm not taking the time. Educate yourself, but, bear in mind, high school sports only include those from grade 9 through 12. Guns belong to everybody. Breathalizer ignition lockouts standard for all 2013 cars, anybody?



You're kidding right? The reason a gun considered more dangerous than a brick or bat or other things is because a toddler playing with a bat or brick unsupervised usually can't blow his head off by accident. Or the head of any other poor sap unfortunate enough to be nearby when it accidentally discharges. 

Im all for the open carry even loaded. At least then id know if i was sitting next to a loaded gun in public and be able to exercise my right to leave the area.

I don't know why i even commented on this since nothing fruitful will come of it. For the record Im pro gun in the home and field and even carried openly but Im against people hiding loaded guns then being near me without me knowing. 

Even though you could kill a man with a ball point pen i can't believe i had to explain why a gun is more dangerous than common household items. Really?


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## carpslayer (Mar 25, 2012)

pure stupidity....... The cops have to stop you and question you thats there job... They should be able to smack people with there own guns who pull this youtube (owning) crap.. then post that on youtube....


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## Northern1 (May 9, 2012)

Guys like the one in the video are the guys who ruin a good thing (open carry) that society has going for it. The people that do it for legitimate reasons, like protection, consequently fall victim to this guy's actions. Obviously, he was within his rights, but why mess with the good guys? Police are here to HELP us, but they also have the duty to keep us in line if we don't follow the law. I think guys like that make police more sensitive to open carry, and thus open carriers are much more likely to get stopped. But, it seems getting stopped could have been his intention all along...witty imbecile


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## "chillin" (Apr 20, 2012)

You know what? When i was with my ex years ago we got in an argument about something stupid on christmas eve. She left and went to her moms, about a half hour later i was feeding my baby her dinner when the "good guys" showed up and threw me out of my own house. On christmas! Just because she said she didnt want me there. They stood there with me in my driveway while her and her sister proceeded to pile my belongings in the snow. Not all cops are good guys, sorry. My point is that maybe the guy had a reason for what he did..i wish i would have had a camera and some knowledge about the law that day.

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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

Pigsticker said:


> You're kidding right? The reason a gun considered more dangerous than a brick or bat or other things is because a toddler playing with a bat or brick unsupervised usually can't blow his head off by accident. Or the head of any other poor sap unfortunate enough to be nearby when it accidentally discharges.
> 
> Im all for the open carry even loaded. At least then id know if i was sitting next to a loaded gun in public and be able to exercise my right to leave the area.
> 
> ...


I guess you didn't read the whole conversation. It has nothing to do with carelesness, and everything to do with our constitutional right to open carry, and the police's willingness to impede on it. Obviously a 2 year old with a handgun is dangerous, as is a drunk with car keys. Hassling by the police deters people from open carry, and this is wrong.

Again, a criminal is not going to open carry, so why do some police officers feel compelled to question, sometimes arrest, those who are not committing a crime?

It's almost like walking out of the carry out with a 6 pack, but being stopped and questioned by the police, for no other reason, other than to see what you're up to. "excuse me, sir, are you going to drink those?", "OK, well, where are you headed?" "Were you planning on throwing your empties along the road?" "Is everything OK?" "Any arguments or other problems?" "Are you planning on driving home?" etc, etc. Maybe even arrest you for public disturbance, because somebody saw you buy the 6 pack and called to complain, or, you "might" do something wrong later, and may be a danger to yourself and those around you. If this happened a lot, even though it's your legal right to buy beer, how long would people put up with it before they just said, well, I'll not buy any more beer?


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