# Great News For Sw Catters!



## dip

heard that CATFISH PARADISE 2 is opening north of cincy! maybe mellon can catch a fish there?  :S


----------



## truck

Can't wait


----------



## williambauman

what is catfish paradise 2????


----------



## truck

Another paylake


----------



## catking

If Mellonhead plays his hand right, he could POSSIBLY  get a cat there...........DA KING !!!


----------



## truck

Ya know I don't even know Mellon,but I don't even think that is possible at a paylake


----------



## dip

mellon head and jakkal ventured to the original catfisherman's paradise in belpre and got SKUNKED every time! :S :S :S


----------



## truck

I knew it :S :S LOL


----------



## rockbass

Gee I wonder how many and where they got the fish for this lake??


----------



## Young Whiskers

rockbass,

It is my understanding that "Catfish Paradise" harvests its fish by using giant hoop nets in southern rivers. Then, they pack 'em in a little lake with limited food supply. And if these 50-100 lb fish die (a fish, I remind you, that probably took well over thirty years to grow)- oh well, they are thrown in the woods or dumpster and promptly replaced with more fish doomed to die.

Not very sporting if you ask me, and it's not great news that "Catfish Paradise 2" is being built, at least not for me. I'm not knocking anyone's fishing habits, but these practices hurt us in the end.


----------



## H2O Mellon

I will sware in front of you all that I have NEVER went to Catfish Paradise. I PROMISE. I am used to getting skunked so its no big deal. Now Jack on the other hand has a Super Saver Card from there!


----------



## catking

Jack has a super saver card............. THAT IS FUNNY.........


----------



## mrfishohio

Dippity doo da strikes again !!


----------



## rustyfish

I am not going jump into the right/wrong thing but i can tell you that the whole limited food supply is not true. I have seined a paylake for school and there were millions of shad, gills, bass, and small carp/goldfish. Those fish would have no problem finding food.


----------



## atrkyhntr

Then why is there so many huge catfish bodies dumped in the woods there?
Paylakes steal from our natural resources so someone can profit... If that don't stink then what does???


----------



## monsterKAT11

here we go again


----------



## rockbass

Not very sporting at all.......A paylake that only stock with farm raised fish is fine, but one that take thousands of pounds from the public waters from profit is just poaching/wrong........would be like capturing deer from the wild and putting them in an enclosed ranch and charge people to hunt for them


----------



## williambauman

My 2 cents. Paylakes are like shooting fish in a barrel so to speak. You have this little body of water ( which should be called a paypond not lake) with a bunch of fish. They are hungry you throw your bait out and bam you hook up a fish. There is no scouting your spot, there's no identifying cover or depth. There is no "fishing" in the whole paylake experience. It sucks! For people who fish those paylakes well they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves fisherman.


----------



## rockbass

Good point bauman!


Kind of stupid calling yourself a fisherman and fishing a pond with big fish overstocked in it. Fish dying off and just taking more fish out of the local rivers and lakes to restock them. Idiots. I guess no need for me to talk about how dumb that is. Everyone already knows that.


I am not totally against paylakes however. AS LONG AS they are done right. do not take from public waterways. A paylake in my mind is a pond where you can pay a couple bucks and fish for fun. Not a tournament for the largest fish that has been illegally put in the water in the first place. Somewhere for Handicapped folks to have fun. Something with good access to those in wheelchairs.


My mission is to some day have some property that I could do this with. I have always wanted a pond of my own. I would love to be able to have one that I could share with others........Mark my word! I will someday have one! Stocked the right way though!


----------



## H2O Mellon

Gee Dip..... Who'd have thought this would end up as a Paylake discussion.  

Anyways I went last year. I took my son to Rainbow lakes. It was at night, he really wanted to go & Mrs Mellon & were at each other. We piled a bunch of wood into the jeep, got ehre put our poles out, got :S of coarse, but had a good time next to the fire. They do have a place, in my opinon it's not really a Sport Fishing thing though. All of us River Catfishermen know most palces we go are not meant for kids, plus most of my spots are dangerous to be at during nightime anyways. It's almost worth the $ just to get a laugh, man you shoudl see some of the sights & fights. I sware there seems to me a shouting match/fight every time I've ever been. Would a pay lake be my personal choice of a fishery? Heck no.

A funny story: Flathunter & I were @ Logan a while back. We ran into a couple guys, they were cat guys. They talked about trying to catch some bulheads for a "Catfishing Trip On The Ohio River" that night. That got me excited, thinking two real true cat guys, we could talk to them for a while. After a few seconds they said, "yea, the name of the place is catfisherman's paradise" Gee....... somepeople dont see any difference in paylakes vs. reg natural fisheries, thats what bothers me.


----------



## H2O Mellon

Ya know, come to think of it those two guys looked like the Dipster & Billy Da Gar Man. Hmm.... Where have you guys been catching those Channels at?


----------



## bill_gfish

OK, You've got us. No secrets anymore. I will come clean for both DIP and myself. Here it is, I am ashamed but I gotta get it off my chest. We've secretly been following you and Jack around and watching how and where you guys fish then fish differently and somewhere else. Well sometimes we wait till you leave and still catch plenty of fish right where you were at. Ever noticed the chewed up bait when you return? There it is, boy I feel better.

Billy Da Gar Man


----------



## H2O Mellon

It seems as if the only things that follow us are Beaver. Each time I fish the Scioto theres a Beaver near by.


----------



## Fishman

Rustyfish recently had the "joy" of seining Catfish Fish paradise (1) for a college class. I'll tell him to come post the results... you guys will be sick.


----------



## H2O Mellon

Boy Fishman, youra day late & a dollar short on that one.  See Reply #14.


----------



## Fishman

WHOOPS!


Rusty, you told me there was plenty of bait in there but what you forgot to mention that was you guys were taking it all out so the guy could resell the stuff to people. Why would you leave that detail out? Going to become a a pro-active paylaker again?


----------



## rustyfish

I was trying to stay out of all arguments just stating a fact , there was a lot of bait fish in there. And there still is too.


----------



## rockbass

Lots of baitfish, but still an unethical practice in which the guys should be punished......Too bad there are soooo many so called fishermen that think they are good cuz they catch a fish out of a man made puddle......What a shame  I think the folks that go to these things are just as responsible for the problems with them as the ones who illegally put these fish in there..........


----------



## catking

Two MAJOR factors as to why this happens..... STRESS in big cats and DEPLETED OXYGEN levels in the hot months.............I've seen this more than I care to. When you load a small lake up with monster cats,that in itslef puts stress on the cats. Then catch them ove and over and you have part of the answer.. Now do this during July & August, and its a diaster in the making. So all the food you saw Rustyfish , really means nothing........ THE CATKING !!!


----------



## atrkyhntr

I am with rockbass on this one...


----------



## rustyfish

Oh i know why and how often they die, i was telling those that think that these fish die due to no food that it is false. Stress is the largest factor when it comes to disease. Those pathogens are always in the water, only when the fish is stressed (like being caught over and over)they are likely to fall the the disease. 
Even if there is good food in the lake, if the fish is to stressed to eat then it doesnt mater. Just because i stopped doing it im not saying its good or bad. I think that anyone who fishes paylakes are guilty of nothing and should not be judged. In todays world everything is made easy at the expense of the environment, why would fishing be any different.


----------



## atrkyhntr

> You know it doesnt matter anyway, all fish are going to be gone before long anyway, why not enjoy them anyway we want before we kill them all


That kind of attitude is what is wrong with some people these days and shows your true thought process


----------



## flathead51

The reason you guys dont like paylakes is you are uninformed.Fishing is a science,why do the same guys always catch big fish? The biggest reason that the big fish die is river fishermen dont know how to handle them. Case and point that record bluecat is already dead. A big percentage of catfish that are caught in the river die because of mishandling. Give paylakes a try and quit crying sour grapes.


----------



## H2O Mellon

Your nuts & besides your :T . That Big Cat did die, *but hey at least it didnt go to a Paylake*. See I can play your game too. I was :T .


----------



## flathead51

Most of the big fish that go into paylakes come from Kentucky Lake or Sante. If fish haulers dont buy them they are processed for food. If you dont beleive me log-on to their websites.These fish have amuch better chace at a paylake. As far as depleted oxygen paylakes have better water quality than their natural environment.


----------



## flathead51

When I saw how they were handling that blue I told my friend that it would die in 2 or 3 days, didnt make it that long.


----------



## CW03

flathead51 said:


> As far as depleted oxygen paylakes have better water quality than their natural environment.


Do you have any credible research to support this statement?


----------



## mastercatman

The whole point of what everyone is saying is that these catfish should not be removed for any reason. If I were a large catfish and I actually had an option to die or to be tortured for the rest of my life, just kill me now. There is no way that living in a paylake is a better option for life. Also those large catfish are truly poor table fare and shouldn't even be processed for food to begin with. These large catfish command respect due to the fact that it takes years to grow to that size while dodging hungry or unethical fishermen. It disgusts me that these places like cabelas feel the need to display catfish like the last two record blues for profit. They claim that this is done to promote conservation but in reality its promoting their bottom line. I would be just as awestruck with a large fiberglass replica and imagining what it would be like to land a fish like that. We as catfishermen need to take pride in what we do. I know that the public waters that I fish will always have large catchable catfish directly due to the ethical practices that I and my very many catfishing friends live by on the water. Everyone reading this should consider this carefully if you do not already. "The seeds you sow today will be the harvest of the future". In other words if you condone the harvest of trophy catfish for unethical or uneccessary practices then you are only limiting your future success. Some people believe that because of stocking and high natural reproduction that it does not matter how many or what size catfish are taken. This is foolish and it makes about as much sense as going out and cutting down a forest of old growth hardwood and going out the next day and planting acorns and hickory nuts to make up for the loss. We all know that it will take years to regrow those trees which were a valuable part of the ecosystem that will not exist in that area for many years to come. It is the exact same thing when you remove the population of large catfish out of a healthy lake. Not only is there no large catfish to be caught but the ecosystem becomes dysfunctional. Some of you may see this as an exageration of what the problem really is but you must also remember that catfishing is growing in popularity and though the problem is limited now it may become widespread in the future. I just needed to get that out. Good fishing to all! Cameron


----------



## rockbass

Obviously flathead51 in missing the point......we are not really saying that these fish are really handled wrong....They are wrongly taken from public waterways and released into these ponds for profit...That is wrong......end of story. If you support what they are doing, that is wrong no matter who you are...

If they purchase these fish legally from fish hatcheries, then that is perfectly legit. I am sure that most of the people who go to these places are not all that good of fishermen who instead of fishing and learning go for the easy kill........just like hunting on a deer ranch where they know every deer and when and where it will be at any given time. Not much sport in it


----------



## mrfishohio

I don't pretend to know why people fish paylakes. I think there's a bizzion reasons. I don't really think they figure where the fish come from. I used to take my son to a paylake when he was young, it was easy, and the chance to catch a large fish. I simply thought the fish were put in young and grew into large fish. At that time we didn't go much, maybe once or twice a year (just to shut him up  )
Then I got hooked catching white bass & that's all she wrote. Well, my son grew & still went to the paylake, finally, a couple years ago, he understood as I became educated as to where those fish came from, I passed it on to him. He became a riverman too. 
I think people fish them because of convience, and also they don't really know where or how the fish are obtained. As someone posted somewhere, if there was something wrong, the DNR would step in. That's like saying if there was really something wrong with smoking, the Dept of Health would ban them.  Just because something is permitted, IE: no creel or size limits on some fish, doesn't make it "right"...right is not the best word for me to use, that is subjective & judgemental, also, let's say, expediant, or for the highest good of all concerned. That would be the fishery, the environment, and those who enjoy it.  
I'm running for office...maybe. I'd make a good preacher or politician  
The word ignorant is good too, but it's missused to connontate a slam, but it really means uninformed, and/or can mean the act of ignoring. When you understand, and become educated to what is going on, then one can make an informed decision. That's why it's so important to understand what we are all trying to say, understand doesn't mean agree with. Just gain an understanding. Okay, I'm getting off this high horse as I'm becoming dizzy & don't want to fall into a cesspool of morass..whatever that means. Full flight from reality


----------



## sliprig

Darn Jim, I don't know you knew all them big words  You got my vote.

Slip


----------



## Rooster

A few quick question:

At least one of the Pay Lakes in Ohio advertises that they purchase catfish from individuals with a commercial fishing license. Link taken from another thread: http://castawaylakes.com/Fish.html


Does Ohio issue commercial fishing licenses? If yes, does that mean that it would be legal to remove (taken by rod and reel) a catfish from say the GMR and sell it to a pay lake?

Im fairly certain that Kentucky issues commercial fishing licenses. Does that mean that any individual with a commercial fishing license could remove fish from the Ohio River (rod and reel) and sell them to pay lakes?


----------



## mrfishohio

The answer is no...for Ohio. There is no commercial fishing permitted in Ohio other than the Lake Erie district. I think they are also limited as to what species they can harvest. So, someone would have to have an out of state license, most likely KY and get fish from waters under KY's jurisdiction. TN allows commercial fishing, but no cats over 34" may be taken by them.
Now, so far as what entails the paylake operator's license, I can't seem to find that information. I believe in IN they are permitted to catch fish and stock their own lakse, I know there's one who fishes out of Tanners who does that. I've also been told by someone who frequents paylakes, that you can fish under the auspices of their license..as an "employee or contractor". That is how they get to buy skipjacks from some, and I've heard catfish too.
So, while saying much, I'm not really answering the question to my satisfaction as it appears there's a hole wide enough to drive a truck thru it.


----------



## mrfishohio

Jim:

The two distinct "groups" of fish by law in Ohio are "commercial fish" (Ohio Revised Code) and "forage fish" (Ohio Administrative Code). A "third" group could be considered all those fish that do not fall into the commercial or forage groups. The difference between groups has to do with how the fish can be harvested. Obviously commercial fish can be taken with commercial fishing gear. Forage fish can be taken by means such as bowfishing, snagging, and seining, with some restrictions. While you will see phrases such as "sport fish" and "game fish" used occasionally, they do not exist by definition in Administrative or Revised Code in Ohio. Flathead catfish fall into the commercial fish category, along with other species such as yellow perch, channel catfish, and white bass. The category of commercial however, only applies to the Lake Erie fishing district. Commercial fishing is not permitted outside of Lake Erie in Ohio. So for all practical purposes, flatheads fall into the third (other than commercial or forage) category for the remainder of the state.

As far as regulations for sport anglers go, the category (commercial, forage, other) that a fish falls into is irrelevant. Regulations for sport anglers focus on species that these folks tend to target. It would not make a lot of sense to place bag or length limits on fish that aren't fished for.
The regulations are based upon biological information collected for each species, and the effect that angling and harvest have on that particular species. Regulations are not based upon whether the species is stocked, reproduces naturally, or falls into a certain category. For example, channel catfish are stocked in many Ohio lakes, but there are no restrictions on harvest. Largemouth bass are not stocked, and regulations exist statewide. In the case of flathead catfish, petitioning the state to classify it as a sport species would not have any effect on management. The reasons being that no "sport" category exists, and that regulations are driven by biological data and not some kind of classification system. To date, no compelling evidence has been collected that indicates flathead catfish are being over-harvested in Ohio's waters.


----------



## mrfishohio

As long as the market is there, it will be exploited. You control the Ohio pay lakes, the demand for large cats diminishes, the commercial fishermen stop targeting them and we don't have the "problems" caused by fishermen demanding and expecting pay lakes to stock large cats and thereby forcing paylake operators to meet their demands. It is a merry-go-round.


That was his response about netting of fish out of the Ohio River.
It goes on & on... If you want to spend sleepless nights & be continually discoraged, fight the fight. 
The problem as I see it is there's no federal law banning it. We had also asked how the state of OH can allow an endangered species in OH be sold to paylakes in OH. here is that response:

It is not illegal for a pay-lake in Ohio to buy live blue catfish that were harvested legally by a commercial fisherman in Kentucky. I wish there was no commercial fishing on the Ohio River but we have no control over what other states do. And we cannot limit or stop legal transactions.

So you see, it's an uphill battle. When the states recognize the value of sportfish is more profitible to the state than commercial fishing it will end or at least have regulations in place. TN doesn't allow any catfish over 34" to be harvested by their commercial fisherman and only one 34" or over by someone with a sport license( I looked it up).

Anyway, I would like to see them enact those same regs in the Ohio River so that it could be a point of destination & become the Catfish Capitol of the World and we'd run guide services, hotels, motels, camps, etc. Right here in our back yard. Not to mention increased boat sales, tackle, etc. People would flock here the same as they go to Lake Erie on vacation, etc.


----------



## truck

Thanks for the info Jim.


----------



## mrfishohio

Rooster...maybe this quote from my above post answers some, but still not the question are paylake operators permitted to catch their own fish ? And if they are, can they get them outside of Lake Erie District and can they allow other's to fish under their license?




> Flathead catfish fall into the commercial fish category, along with other species such as yellow perch, channel catfish, and white bass. The category of commercial however, *only applies to the Lake Erie fishing district*. Commercial fishing is not permitted outside of Lake Erie in Ohio. So for all practical purposes, flatheads fall into the third (other than commercial or forage) category for the remainder of the state.


----------



## Rooster

Thanks for all the info!


----------



## mrfishohio

I'm like the straw man in the Wizard of Oz....


> Darn Jim, I don't know you knew all them big words


Give me a title & I'm a regular know it all 
Or was it the tin man ?


----------



## BottomBouncer

I don't agree with what places like Catfisherman's are doing, nor can I do anything to stop them. If it were illegal, they would not have a website advertising what they are doing, just because it is unethical doesn't mean anything when it comes down to it.

I have fished there before, took my 7 year old nephew there and my girlfriend there. Only with the sole intention of getting them to enjoy catfishing. I have never gone there just to go cattin' by myself, I don't have a problem hiking the river banks for good spots. Try taking a young kid back there or a girlfriend/wife.......them being miserable will make you miserable. Now show them how much fun it is to catch big fish, and they may think that hiking the banks could be worth the effort if it means catching a big fish.

Until the majority of the world realizes that our natural resources are not limitless.......things will continue to be this way.

As for the "hard core" catmen of the pay lakes......just laziness. It is more rewarding to me to go scout a spot, catch my bait, and catch a 5lb. flatty from the river then to catch a 50lb. from a paylake. It doesn't take any effort.

I'm taking my step dad to catfishermans a couple weekends from now. If I can get him on to a couple nice fish there, he will be more willing to put in some effort to go cattin' on a natural lake or river. To me it is a way to get someone interested in catfishing and it will help us in the long run. 

Make the best out of a poor situation. It can be a resource for teaching and promoting fishing.


----------



## mrfishohio

I'd rather take someone to a county park, like Miami Whitewater, or the Hamilton Dam, etc. Just like you said, a 5# wild fish is better than a 50# paylake fish. There's been alot of big flatheads caught here local, Fishman, H2OMellon, Cat Mazter, Flathunter, not to mention nice carp & smallies. It's a paradox alright...the lure of the big fish is difficult to deny. Especially when you know they just had to stock several fresh _*TONS*_ of trophy wild fish netted from public waters & dumped into a 4 acre lake. (to replace the tons they dumped last year that dies...to replace the tons from the previous year...)
Yes, it's a choice.


----------



## mrfishohio

25 Flatheads stocked in May over 50 pounds each. There was a total of 8,300 pounds of flatheads stocked in May of 2003!!! 
Link (click) 2003 

14,000 pounds of Big Fish stocked in the spring for 2004 fishing.* (That's 7 tons ! )*

60 fish weighing over 50 pounds each stocked in 2004.Link (click) 2004 

In March 2005 12,000 pounds of Big Blues stocked. 60 fish over 50 pounds each and 7 new tagged fish. ( 6 more tons!!) Link (click) 2005 That's just the blues....more to come...


> Stocking big flatheads in the months of May and June.


Yeah...I'm speachless, well not really.  I see those fish & it makes me sad...Guarantee you if they were netting muskies, salmon, smallies, largemouth bass, even carp and dumping them in a pay pond there would be a ground swell so fast it would make you head swim. Since it's catfish.....not enough organizations to care.


----------



## mrfishohio

However did I miss this, too bad I didn't close the window before reading it.



> Catfisherman's Paradise stocks over 12,000 pounds of Big Blues and Flatheads every spring starting in March of every year. Catfisherman's Paradise has stocked hundreds of fish over 50 pounds each in the 14-year history of the lake. In the summer of 2001 there were 16 fish caught weighing over 70 pounds each and over 100 fish caught weighing over 50 pounds each.


Six (6) tons of big fish...every spring for 14 years.....6 tons x 14 years = 84 tons or 12,000 lbs times 14 years = 168,000 lbs....and that's just the big fish. Why ?? Why do they have to restock? Why are they going(?)...it's all C&R afterall :C I'm not spending a nickle of my money there for any reason.


----------



## BottomBouncer

We've beatin' this horse dozens of times. My point in taking people there is to get them interested in catfishing. Sure, I could take them to some public park and catch little bluegill.......but the goal for me is to get people interested in cattin'

If I tell someone "Well, first we have to go seine some creeks chubs, then go and cast net some shad and finally go catch some bluegill. Then we need to pack a back pack, rods, bait, lantern, etc. and hike down the river about one mile to fish for several hours, then carry it all back. Would that sounds like fun to a person who has never experienced a large catfish? Probably not.....

As long as there are lazies in the world, people will continue to take advantage of it........and as long as there are resources available, people will continue to exploit it.


----------



## mrfishohio

Go where you want. I go where I want & I don't tell people what to do, I just like to educate them on where the fish come from. That's just one lake, there's tons of them too. I used top go to paylakes, not too much, but I've gone close to a dozen times when I first started. Then I stopped. Just food for thought, if all those thousands upon thousands of pounds of fish were left in the wild, it might improve one's chances of catching one. I know he nets some from the Ohio River too because I've seen him there.
Someday maybe you'll hike into your favorite spot & watch a netter whincing up hundreds of pounds of fish out of your hole. Ponder that.  
I'm about to jump onto the carp bandwagon anyway. Would you like to buy a good cattin' boat? All set up for the river too.


----------



## BottomBouncer

I'm tryin' to sell my boat. Eventually want something smaller and more managable and able to fish the 10hp lakes.

I've often wished that paylakes were never invented.......just like everything else, someone saw a way to make $$$$ off of folks who don't like to put much effort. 

Catfisherman's was going to be the last paylake I ever fished. Always heard about it....been to many others and was skunked every single time. 

Too bad there isn't a B.A.S.S type of organization for cat guys :F


----------



## mrfishohio

There is an attempt to start one Catfish Angler's Society (click)


----------



## flathunter

Jim, you da man!!!! You need to run for Govenor!


----------



## mastercatman

If the only way I had to get people started in catfishing was to take them to paylakes, I would teach no-one! Personally, I can find plenty of places to take people where they can experience first time action with decent cats to get the fever started. Why get someone hooked into a 50lb fish in a paylake only to take them out to fish wild populations of fish where a 50lber is a fish of a lifetime. It truly makes no sense to get someone started fishing in a lake where the fish are basically tortured and get them pumped up on big fish they may never see in the wild because they're all in the paylakes!!!!!!!!!!! All you are doing is breeding more paylakers and compounding the problem even further!!!!!!!!!!! I sure know that if my first catfish was a fish of a lifetime it would potentially ruin future experiences fishing in the wild. There are many of us here who know that the real reward in catching a trophy cat is the effort that they put into it and just enjoying what mother nature has created not some manmade stash for trophy catfish robbers.


----------



## atrkyhntr

There is an honest attempt to make trophy catfish a gamefish and to stop the non-sense called Paylakes which as everyone knows steals from the very natural resources we all have come to love...
I have even been called a liar and had my good name drug through the trenches over this issue with OGF TOS having no meaning, or only when it fits an agenda, then have had accusations made...
Shame that some have no conscience of the consequences even the very admin of this site...


----------



## catking

I very seldom will discuss issues on this site in an open forum . But before you start pointing fingers Clyde, you better get the facts straight. We ( the OGF) are a fishing site. Some do participate in fishing pay lakes. Alot of members disagree with the practice, but the ones who do fish the pay lakes have just as much right to express their feelings on this site as you or I . To say that the OGF has no conscience and only does things to fit our agenda is not only false, it's just not a fair evaluation . We want ALL members to have the right to say what they want about the diffrent topics on this site. If members disagree with this and want to label it as " no consicence" so be it. But I feel the OGF Team is both fair and honest when it comes to letting members do as they wish under the TOS rules. Some do not follow the TOS , and action has to be taken at times. For this , I am sorry. But we really try to be fair. CATKING


----------



## BottomBouncer

This is almost funny to me. 

You "cat guys" claim to love the fish soo much, but when it comes down to it, what do you do to help keep it going for the next generation??? Catch and Release??? Yeah, I do that too....along with a lot of other guys. How far do you go after that??? Talk about it on here???

Have you thought that by someone catching a large fish on their first outting that it would make them want to keep fishing to get more like it??? Make them try hard, study it more and put more effort into it???

The world will always be filled with greed. Greed effects many things, including our natural resources. The world is also full of lazy people. People who don't want to try, they want results NOW. Why spend hours catching bait and waste hours scouting new spots when they can just go to a pay lake and look like a hero.

Personally, I have only taken people there to show them a good time. Only been there twice. 

Until the world realizes that resources...whether it be gasoline or trees are not endless, we'll just have to make the best of it. 

I myself believe that our DNR is a bunch of morons. I look at fisheries like in Florida. There are closed seasons, slot limits...a lot more restrictions. Why are people allowed to fish the walleye runs and whitebass runs??? Fishing while fish are trying to reproduce........this is stupid!!!!!!! We are stopping them from creating fish for the future. They are encouraging people with their Fish Ohio program. 

Only reason I mention the above is because I believe we need to start worrying more about what happens in our own state than what happens in Kentucky. When Kentucky realizes that their Blue cat populations are dropping dramatically and start impossing restrictions on commercial fishing, then the pay lakes will suffer. But as long as they can go across the border......what are we going to do about it???


----------



## Lewzer

Amen Catking. I'm with you there.


I think the ODNR has done a pretty good job. Sure there are a few things that could be done better like make one lake in each 4 quadrants of the state catch and release immediately for bass or more striper opportunities.
But overall I can't complain.


----------



## mrfishohio

> When Kentucky realizes that their Blue cat populations are dropping dramatically and start impossing restrictions on commercial fishing, then the pay lakes will suffer.


Where are those fish going? Some to paylakes...most to grocery stores & restaurants.
So as long as there's a demand for paylakes and people utilize them, there will be a demand for big catfish. 


> But as long as they can go across the border......what are we going to do about it???


To me it's obvious, stop patronizing the paylakes. If they don't have the demand, the need to pull in huge catfish diminishes. It's a cause & effect situation. That's how we can begin to change it.


> Have you thought that by someone catching a large fish on their first outting that it would make them want to keep fishing to get more like it???


Yes, I have....
Personally I think all one does by taking someone to a paylake is creating more paylakers. A big fish is not the end to a means. The sport of fishing has it's own rewards, and going to a paylake teaches that a big fish is the objective. 

Here's where there's a big difference in objectives. Some fish for sport, food, egos, bragging rights, money, etc. Paylakes fill a need for some. ( Big fish, win money) I can have a good time out fishing even if I don't catch a fish. If I'm teaching someone to fish, it's about the sport of it, not just see how big a fish you can get. A white bass run or pond fishing for bass would make more sense to me. 
Again, I can understand both sides of the issue. If one feels there's nothing wrong with netting those huge fish...*their claim...hundreds over 50# and 12,000 lbs a year for 14 years...168,000lbs.* By all means, go buy a ticket and support them in their business so they will continue to florish and truck in more fish. They are bringing in huge flatheads this month. Good luck, be sure to take a camera and post lots of pictures.
We talked to another commercial fisherman on the river, he said he netted 358,000 or 368,000 lbs of fish last year. Only the big cats go to paylakes, the rest are filleted and sold. He said any catfish you see in a store over 2# was a wild fish.
Anyway, I don't expect to change anyone's mind on paylakes. Maybe this information will influence someone new to fishing who's not informed with the facts. If someone knows & still goes, then that's their option. I used to go, before I knew. Now that I know...no way.


----------



## smalliehunter1

I am totally against paylakes.......... its not fishing in my book........ thats just my two cents. I realize we cannot close them down, but maybe there should be some sort of control on them.......... ie...... and i am just thinking here....... no more then 6 over 20 ,5 fish over 30lbs, 3 over 40, 2 over 50......etc.......... and any fish under 15 must be a farm raised cat....... this would make the "big fish lotto" a bit more interesting and then maybe they can call it fishing........ in a pay lake............


----------



## BottomBouncer

This is what I like most about the site, everyone can voice/type their oppinion and no one get belligerant. Some thoughts and opinions have opened my eyes to the way others see it, and hopefully others feel the same.  :F


----------



## mrfishohio

Yeah, and I agree with Smallie's 2 cents worth. 
In today's world, we all need to act responsibly. It can be hard, sometimes it's not easy. Sometimes it's not possible(like buying made in the USA goods). Somethings are within our control, I try to make decisions based on facts and not emotions. Keeping an eye on the big picture vs. instant gratification.
I'm glad to see we can express opinions too. Glad to see others feel the same.  Attacks have the opposite effect over what one is trying to express. If I'm attacked, my first response is to defend myself. It's human nature. I like Smallies' signature too.


----------



## mastercatman

I am going to address a few issues and in no way am I intending to offend anyone. I am just offering a new angle of perspective.
Ok, catch and release, bottom bouncer asked how far do we go after that? Well, first off, if every single person caught and released every single catfish that they caught it would be a monumental success. I'm not saying that keeping a few small cats is a problem either because I enjoy fresh catfish fillets as much as the next guy. The thing is that not everyone catches and releases but the majority of us do and it is crucial to the success of future fisheries. I applaud all that practice moderation in catch and release and if that is all that you are doing for catfishing that is fine. Not everyone has to be an all out activist to change things. Personally, I take it to the next step by: creating new spawning structure, promoting catch and release, and educating people on how to fish and how to ensure that there will always be trophy catfish to be caught as well as many other things that I do. By talking about what we do on here we are increasing our odds by leaps and bounds that there will be great fishing in Ohio. Thousands of people use this site and of those thousands many may begin to adopt or learn how to promote future fishing success. Also of those thousands will educate more thousands of people, This site has an exponential value to educate and that is a great thing.
Next, if you're spending hours catching bait, you must not know what your doing. Then if you see the time spent scouting out new holes as a "waste" then you have already missed the point!
The comparison of resources "trees and gasoline" is totally illegitimate. There is no comparison because one is a renewable resource and the other is non-renewable. Gasoline will indefinitely one day be gone because there is no livable time period to allow this resource to "restock". Trees on the other hand, even though deforestation is a major threat, are renewable and in our lifetime when proper management is introduced will flourish as before the chainsaw. Catfish populations are also renewable, when properly managed there will be an endless bounty of fish.
Also, many of you believe that the DNR and the ODOW are morons. I am forced to ask when and where did you receive your degree in fisheries and wildlife management. Just because another state seems to have better regulations on one species or another does not mean that the whole system in Ohio is full of shortcomings. In fact I know that many of us enjoy hunting wild turkey, white tailed deer, canada geese, and coyotes just to mention a few of the DNR's success stories. Also what about the yellow perch, walleye, and smallmouth fishing that has become so much more successful in recent years on lake erie? Then you have to look at what has been done by the state to promote successful catfishing opportunities by supplementing most lakes in Ohio with annual or bi-annual stockings. There are those of us who disagree with what is being done about the cormorants. My answer to this is that obviously many of us do not remember what happens when man comes up with a quick fix by eliminating species populations. Yes, the process to properly manage the cormorants and other nuisance species is slow but it is the best way to ensure that a domino effect of harm does not fall upon the ecosystem. Sure a lot of damage may be done in the time period the management plans are taking place but Mother Nature is resilient and time will repair old wounds. Have faith be patient and things will fall into place. Also remember that we live in a democracy. If you do not agree with something you can petition to change it. If your concern is feasible and something can be done there are steps you can take, it may take some time but it can be done. Think twice and act once. Good Fishing

Cameron


----------



## BottomBouncer

Okay......seems I need to spell a few things out:

I brought up the trees/gasoline thing to make the point that they will run out or run low........but it takes a LONG time for them to replenish. 

NO....I do not have a degree in fisheries or wildlife management. However, common sense would say "Hmm.....if we are going to make efforts to make lake erie walleye fishing better.......why don't we take it all the way and keep people from fishing for them when to are migrating back to the lake???" They seem to think that the catfish isn't on the same level as a bass, but when you look at their identification channels and flatheads are on the "sportfish" list. Then again, american eels are on there too. Nuff said.

Yeah, the dnr has done some good things.......but it sure seems like a two step forward, one step back sort of thing. Imagine how much better walleye fishing would be on Erie if they would just let the walleye get back to lake erie???? How much better the cattin' would be if you put size restrictions and bag limits on them. They did it with the ever abundant crappie  Man, these whitebass and crappie were full of eggs...they look good in the fryin' pan. Seen plenty of pics of fat panfish in coolers and strings on this site.......and this represents a small fraction of the people actually fishing. 

Most of the business that baitshops around here do involves catfish. Matt at Fisherman's said if they had to rely of bass equipment sales they would be out of business......the majority goes to cat guys. Same goes for nearly all tackle/bait shops I have been too. 

And about spending hours catching bait.....well, it's nice to have a variety and sometimes you can't get all the different types that you need/want from one spot. Did I say that scouting was a waste of time? No....read a little closer and I said that for someone new to cattin'......driving around and walking the banks would seem like a waste of time.

I like when people get on here and think they are gods gift to fishing and this site. "Not trying to offend anyone."  

What I don't get is the idea that it is okay to only keep the small fish. NO...I'm not saying harvest the trophies. There are a lot more average to small fish than there are big fish.....so if everyone takes the small to average fish, then we are just left with big fish and the young fish. So, how is that helping the fishing.....seems like it is just giving people less of a chance to catch something. 

Now twist that around and turn it into something else.........

Okay, I'm off the box now  :F


----------



## BottomBouncer

Okay.......cooled off now  

No one is happy when others don't see things their way....including myself  I don't think any less of anyone for now taking my beliefs for their own.......we are all in the same book, just on different pages. I'd share my bait bucket with any of you fellas, just gimme a couple days to fill it up  :F


----------



## mrfishohio

Okay,I'm going to add my twist. I don't really think rod & reel fisherman would really hurt the catfish population too much. The _DNR HAS_ put regulations into effect on smaller lakes in Ohio. I'd still like to see a statewide size & creel limit. With trot lines & unlimited creels I know streams & small rivers can be affected.
My beef with _paylakes_ is the importing of wild netted fish that come from as close as the Ohio River. I don't care what state they are coming from, they are wild fish, natural resources.
Good observation..."No one is happy when others don't see things their way"  
Why not share your bait with your friend & take him to a spot you already scoped out? I took a guy out for his first catfish adventure & he caught a 5# channel cat & acted like it was a 30# flathead. He was too happy.


----------



## Darwin

mrfishohio said:


> My beef with _paylakes_ is the importing of wild netted fish that come from as close as the Ohio River. I don't care what state they are coming from, they are wild fish, natural resources.


I believe this statement says it all. I am not the catfisherman that many of you obviously are and I don't clame to be. The way I understand our wildlife laws though is that they basically read this way about our fish; All fish in public waterways belong to no ONE person. They belong to the people of the state of Ohio. That means they belong to the public. 
So how can they be netted, taken away from the public and put in a place where you have to PAY to fish for them?
I am in no way against pay lakes. I am just against the way some of them get their fish.


----------



## mastercatman

I know that we all would like to see catfish get the same recognition as bass. It takes years and people like us to make this happen. I believe one day that catfish will receive the recognition they deserve. As far as other species management I would agree that crappies should be managed a little more closely and harvest restrictions placed on them during their spawn. As far as white bass, on lake erie there is only one time a year where people target these fish in mass. Because of the fact that they are not targeted year round does not qualify them for any special harvest restrictions. I have watched thousands of people at a time take home hundreds of fish each every year for years and it has never changed the quality of the fishing from year to year for these very high producing fish. I believe that what they have done for walleye management is sufficient. They decreased the walleye limit from 6 to 3 during the spawn and man them game wardens don't let too many snagged fish come out of the water. Then also they decreased the commercial harvest limits I think by nearly a million pounds of fish last year or the year before. This fishery has yet to see its new peak under the new regulations, just be patient. Like I said though, there are steps you can take to change things as long as it is ecosystem and unfortunately economically sound. 
There is nothing wrong with keeping 2 or 4 2lb channel cats to take home for dinner once in a while. Healthy catfish populations can handle it. What really makes me mad is when I see stringers of 20 to 60 channel cats from the previous years stocking and I had seen this alot before I changed my way of thinking. So for the last few years when I see a stringer of catfish like that you can bet I give those guys a hard time. Right or wrong I believe it has made a difference in the areas I fish because I am out nearly every day to see things like this happening. Like Mr. Fish Ohio said, he took a new guy out after he did the work catching bait and finding the spot. The new guy didn't have anything to do but reel in his first nice catfish and now he wants to learn how to catch these catfish on his own. Once you get people hooked it's just a matter of pointing them in the right direction. WE AS ETHICAL CATFISHERMEN NEED TO EDUCATE OTHERS TO TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT THEY DO AND PROMOTE CONSERVATION FOR ALL SPECIES.


----------



## bkr43050

Buddy Punk said:


> I am in no way against pay lakes. I am just against the way some of them get their fish.


 That is a good point to be made. Too many times the perception becomes that all paylakers are alike and all take fish from Ohio's resources and from everything that I have read on the the subject that is simply not always the case. That is why I believe that ethical discussions should be more centered on the harvest methods and practices rather than directed at paylakes. I believe that the concept of paylakes itself should not be criticized as it is merely a matter of choice of the individual as to whether that is their preferred method of fishing. It is clear that the opinions span the spectrum on that question but it is okay to have differing opinions.

There has been some real good discussion here on the subject which leaves plenty for people to read and think about in the future. When it is done in a calm manner it allows everyone to express their views.


----------



## misfit

brian,i am in total agreement.
dfox's statement reflects my feelings exactly.
there are paylakes that stock other farm raised fish,and serve a good purpose.the ones that stock fish caught from public waters are a horse of a different color,so it is unfair to lump all paylakes into one neat little bundle,or berate people who fish them.since ohio doesn't allow commercial fishing outside lake erie,i would like to see them ban the sale of out of state fish to private lakes,for profit.
i would also love to see limits of some kind,placed on all cats,and certain other species.


----------



## BottomBouncer

So....I am definately open to suggestions on where to take him? I have a couple spots I have fished, that are on and off......very inconsistant, my main goal was to give him a better chance at catching a nice fish, not necessarily a 60lber......those aren't the norm even in pay lakes. 

So, if anyone could pm me a suggestion I would greatly appreciate it. I'm going out scouting today and tomorrow to see what I can find.

Good debate  

Thanks again  :F


----------



## misfit

ryan,are you looking to put him on flats,channels,or either?big,or just decent fish?if you're bankin' it,those spots i suggested at hoover could produce some nice channels.if you want to drive a little,the spillway area at dillon gives up some nice flats and channels.the muskingum river dams are also good places to get into nice fish.all those places offer fairly easy access,and good odds for some decent fish.


----------



## mrfishohio

Looks like we all learned from this thread.


----------



## mastercatman

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone who participated in this thread and the creators of this website. I love the fact that I can express how I feel and learn that I am not the only one who feels this way about catfishing. I was also able to see how very differently we all think about the same thing we all obviously love. I had a great time researching and contributing to this thread because it is obviously something that I feel strongly about. I want anyone on this site to know that if at anytime you want to fish for cats in the akron area I've got a spot on the bank near me and plenty of bait, just PM me. And bottom bouncer, just so you know that there is no hard feelings i'm just glad to know that there is yet another person who shares a passion for fishing and I would be glad to have you along on a trip sometime if you're in the area. Thanks again guys and GOOD FISHING!
Cameron
P.S. I almost forgot. I recieved some really exciting news today! I am a private contractor and I just began work on a stark county rangers home a few days ago. I had explained to him on the day that I started work for him that I was planning on going to college to recieve a degree in fisheries management and aquaculture. I also mentioned that I would be looking for a job working with DOW or DNR. So far he and his wife are very pleased with my work, so much in fact that his wife started crying this morning while explaining why she liked everything so much. This afternoon when Mark( the game warden) came home he handed me his card and said that he would get me a job working with the ODNR this following spring part-time until I finish school. Just think, I could help make some big changes if I work hard at it!


----------



## catking

Thanks for the kind words. We created this site for YOU , the Ohio anglers ... Very glad to have you on board...... Very nice about the part time job..  .... THE CATKING !!!


----------



## BottomBouncer

Hey.....can't have hard feelings for someone standing up and sticking by what they believe in.

I'd like to put him on a flathead, it not some good channel cat action would be good.

I have thought about taking him to Piedmont to rent a boat for the night. There are a couple areas I have seen that look good. Probably going to hit the bank somewhere. Driving distance isn't much of an issue.


----------

