# early ML



## luv fishing

Ok guys will the early muzzle loader season hurt the rut? I know there's threads about this but I wanted to start a new one any info would be great


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## Bad Bub

No. The rut will still happen.

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## treytd32

what kind of ranges do you guys normally shoot with your smoke poles? just curious, I don't own or intend to shoot one


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## icefisherman4life

i heard the rut is gonna run later this year around nov 14 to the 25th. i can shoot my ml 200 yards


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## Thompy04

Ditto on the rut still happening, it's more of a moon phase/lack of daylight thing in my opinion. I feel comfortable at 250 yards with my current ML setup, I haven't harvested a deer at that distance, but the range targets leave me confident. 


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## ostbucks98

im sure the answer is yes it "may" impact the rut in certain places. there will most certainly be less doe's. the impact could be positive or negative depending on number hit in your area.

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## treytd32

dang you guys are snipers with the ol muskets lol thanks for the info


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## chad24

If you bow hunt , don't go out these 2 days for muzzle loader please. We need to NOT go and hope this silly 2 day back fires on the ODNR . By not going, the kills will not show it working and hopefully they don't do it again. I believe this is going to make some kind of impact on the bow hunting this year. What kind of impact, I don't know. I do believe its going to do something. If anyone of you hunt in a woods and know others hunt in the same woods and they go out these 2 days, I'm sure its going to impact your bow hunting. I am not against muzzle loaders and hunting with them or shotguns, but I am against these 2 days. This is just my opinion. Thanks and be safe in whatever hunting you do this year.


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## ezbite

I'm going and I think it's going to be a good chance to harvest some meat for the freezer. The deer will be movin for sure. It's only 2 days an wont affect the rut much because I don't think I'll be on.


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## Bassnpro1

This early ML season should make for some great bow hunting during the rut. Less does=more buck movement. The rut should be EPIC this year! 


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## crappiedude

I'll be out for sure, I'm looking forward to it.
I do think it's kind of stupid to be a "doe only weekend" regardless of hunting method. Ky has an early ML season and both Ky & In have gun seasons during the rut and everything goes just fine. It seems when Ohio has a "rule change" it comes with some kind of ridiculous rules. I remember when Sunday hunting came it....it had some pretty ridiculous baggage the 1st few years it was in effect.


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## Lundy

The ODNR Isn't looking to kill bucks that weekend, they want the baby makers killed. It is the plan to continue to reduce the herd size overall

The early "baggage" for Sunday hunting was a requirement by the farm bureau to support Sunday hunting. Landowners were required to sign up to allow for Sunday hunting on their property. Landowners that did not support Sunday hunting could just not sign up.


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## AEFISHING

100% right on Crappiedude. No reason not to allow bucks since your only allowed one a year anyways.


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## ostbucks98

when it comes to big bucks there is a reason ohio ranks higher than kentucky and indiana. i vote to keep it that way..and im against thinning the herd. i want more deer in the woods.

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## crappiedude

Lundy said:


> The ODNR Isn't looking to kill bucks that weekend, they want the baby makers killed. It is the plan to continue to reduce the herd size overall
> 
> The early "baggage" for Sunday hunting was a requirement by the farm bureau to support Sunday hunting. Landowners were required to sign up to allow for Sunday hunting on their property. Landowners that did not support Sunday hunting could just not sign up.


Oh I understand they want to put a smacking on the does but like AEFishing said you're only allowed 1 buck. Once it's down, your doe hunting the rest of the year anyway.

Exactly what I was talking about with the Sunday hunting. I also believe there was an acreage requirement too. Really there was no need for special rules. If the landowner didn't want you there he could just ask you not to hunt on Sunday. Honestly, I know a lot of land owners and none of them cared if you hunted or not. 

I always thought the "no hunting on Sunday" was a hidden agenda put out by the wives of hunters just trying to make us stay home at least one day on the weekend and they gave up on the idea when they realized we would just go fishing instead.


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## Bad Bub

ostbucks98 said:


> when it comes to big bucks there is a reason ohio ranks higher than kentucky and indiana. i vote to keep it that way..and im against thinning the herd. i want more deer in the woods.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Those are two differing goals.... lots of deer per acre usually means a smaller average sized deer. Living right across the river from west Virginia, and working with a lot of wva hunters everyday, it's apparent that their attempt at herd reduction over the last 15-20 years is working. Each season, guys are killing bigger deer than the previous season. The deer look healthier, and the antler size is averaging much higher.

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## ostbucks98

a 4 1/2 year old buck is still gonna be a 4 1/2 year old buck. we arent talking about thinning fish numbers so the fish grow bigger. unless the deer just has piss poor genes or been injuredinjured at 4 1/2 years old he's looking good.

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## Bad Bub

ostbucks98 said:


> a 4 1/2 year old buck is still gonna be a 4 1/2 year old buck. we arent talking about thinning fish numbers so the fish grow bigger. unless the deer just has piss poor genes or been injuredinjured at 4 1/2 years old he's looking good.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


A 4 1/2 year old buck that eats whenever and whatever he wants without the need to search it out will be bigger and healthier than a 4 1/2 year old buck that spends his entire life searching for food that all the other deer haven't eaten yet. The woods work just like a pond or lake. They can only support so much "poundage" of foraging animals per acre. You either get that poundage by more, smaller animals, or fewer, but heavier animals...

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## ducky152000

im not in favor of this, rut will still happen no doubt, but your going to get alot more nocturnal deer now. it isnt like they are already nocturnal enough. if you cant kill a doe with a bow before gun season, mybe a little more hunting experience is needed.


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## Bad Bub

ducky152000 said:


> im not in favor of this, rut will still happen no doubt, but your going to get alot more nocturnal deer now. it isnt like they are already nocturnal enough. if you cant kill a doe with a bow before gun season, mybe a little more hunting experience is needed.


Not everyone bow hunts...

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## bgpark1

I think this early Muzzle season is terrible. the action in the woods will be great for those that go out.... but it will drive deer nocturnal and bow hunting will suffer in the same manner as the annual gun seasons do. the second thing that bothers me is that no bucks can be harvested that weekend regardless of method... and action in the woods is what disrupts buck behavior far more then does. Not happy and will not participate


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## bobk

128 days to bowhunt this season. I can't see why some are so upset over 2 days of muzzloading. At least see how it goes for a year? I bowhunt too but don't think it will hurt a thing for the rut. There's no way it will stop what natually happens every year. We're all hunters here.


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## ostbucks98

i think a majority of bowhunters choose bowhunting to get away from the madness.

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## ostbucks98

Bad Bub said:


> A 4 1/2 year old buck that eats whenever and whatever he wants without the need to search it out will be bigger and healthier than a 4 1/2 year old buck that spends his entire life searching for food that all the other deer haven't eaten yet. The woods work just like a pond or lake. They can only support so much "poundage" of foraging animals per acre. You either get that poundage by more, smaller animals, or fewer, but heavier animals...
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


maybe a hard winter will put some strains on the deer. but i dont see any starving deer in this state anytime soon.

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## treytd32

I don't like the early ML bc when guns start getting shot around my property the deer only move at night but it's just something that's going to happen, you can't take away the gun or ml season from those hunters. I agree that with the amount of crops we have here in the state that our carrying capacity is significantly higher than in some states like WV, although once harvested I could see a problem over winter. To me it sounds like they want that 1:1 ratio they've been talking about while making the herd smaller. Let me see if I can link the research I had to review over the summer about deer carrying capacity in Georgia. 

ok I couldn't link the actual research because it required me log in and I could not copy the pdf directly here to the site, I don't believe I listed the actual caloric intake necessary for a white tail deer in my paper but I can find it within the research if people wanted to know, of course this number is dependent on a number of variables, temperature being the most significant.
View attachment EFT Term Paper Trevor.doc


ps. please no grammar Nazis etc. lol this was the rough draft bc the final had more of my personal information attached to it


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## Bad Bub

ostbucks98 said:


> maybe a hard winter will put some strains on the deer. but i dont see any starving deer in this state anytime soon.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Well, I guess my reasoning, or the biologists of basically every whitetail hunting state for that matter, can't compete with your knowledge of the natural world...

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## medium mouth

im honestly not in favor of the early muzzleloading. I know a lot of people that will not go out to shoot a doe because its to warm to let the deer hang and like me when you work 6 to 7 days a week its hard enough to hunt let a lone butcher a deer right away. Also I am not in favor of the doe only that weekend because I barely have enough time to get a mature buck and then there goes another weekend I cant depend on. I understand why they are doing it doe only and that's because there are so many unlawful and dishonest hunters who might try and shove a arrow through the hole or even tag it in as a bow kill when they used a muzzleloader. I know that not everyone gun hunts but gun and bow are completely different. We can bowhunt 128 days in a row and I gurantee you after that the deer are not shook up near as much as 2 days of gun hunting. the dnr can say they are doing it for the farmers but me and all the other farmers I know don't take there deer to a butcher and like their deer to hang for the meat to cure so they will not shoot a doe when it is so warm out. just my 2 cents...or 3


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## The Ojibwa

How many people have ML's? It seems that the majority of gun hunters use a shotgun...I'm not really expecting it to be a mad house like the gun opener...public land may be different but I have a hard time believing that every one of my neighbors will be out pushing the woods trying to bag a doe. I see it being a fun hunt where I can use archery tactics, but use a different weapon.

i think these guys speculating on the deleterious effects will be disappointed that they are wrong...but then again I might eat crow...but I doubt it


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## Lundy

ostbucks98 said:


> a 4 1/2 year old buck is still gonna be a 4 1/2 year old buck. we arent talking about thinning fish numbers so the fish grow bigger. unless the deer just has piss poor genes or been injuredinjured at 4 1/2 years old he's looking good.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The data collected on the Ohio deer population since the 70's shows a different result. They have a lot of data that clearly shows a decline in body weight and antler size. The data is the data.



_As deer approach biological carrying capacity,
herd and habitat health begin to decline.
Evidence that this is occurring might include a
distinct browse line, the replacement of highly
nutritious and preferred plant species with less
palatable and nutritious ones, and a decline in
the condition of the animals themselves. Deer
herd condition data, such as yearling (1.5-years
old) antler beam and body weight data, collected
since the early 1970s suggest that, while condition
in western Ohio remains unchanged, it has
declined in portions of eastern Ohio. This decline
is a direct result of both lower habitat quality
and higher deer densities._


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## bigeye1

I personally don't think you will see much of a change deer activity. Maybe the week just following, but that will be it. People won't doing crazy drives and they are only getting shot at once vs three it more. I am not crazy about this season, but my 8 year old daughter wants to go and this will give me a chance take her out and she won't freeze. I bow hunt and I will be out after this just as much before.


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## ostbucks98

Lundy said:


> The data collected on the Ohio deer population since the 70's shows a different result. They have a lot of data that clearly shows a decline in body weight and antler size. The data is the data.
> 
> 
> 
> _As deer approach biological carrying capacity,
> herd and habitat health begin to decline.
> Evidence that this is occurring might include a
> distinct browse line, the replacement of highly
> nutritious and preferred plant species with less
> palatable and nutritious ones, and a decline in
> the condition of the animals themselves. Deer
> herd condition data, such as yearling (1.5-years
> old) antler beam and body weight data, collected
> since the early 1970s suggest that, while condition
> in western Ohio remains unchanged, it has
> declined in portions of eastern Ohio. This decline
> is a direct result of both lower habitat quality
> and higher deer densities._


im sure nationwide and farmers insurance funded that study....i hunt deer all over the southern half and there is no starving deer running around. deer can eat almost anything that grows in ohio even bare branches. im not buying the lets keep the herd down because there is not enough food argument. 



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## M.Magis

ostbucks98 said:


> im sure nationwide and farmers insurance funded that study....i hunt deer all over the southern half and there is no starving deer running around. deer can eat almost anything that grows in ohio even bare branches. im not buying the lets keep the herd down because there is not enough food argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


No, youre wrong. As usual, conspiracy theories dont hold much water. Its common knowledge, all across the whitetails range, that high deer densities decrease both body mass and antler size. In regards to your thoughts regarding a deers diet, Ill just suggest you do some research before making any more comments. To say theyre foolish and just plain wrong would be a bit of an understatement.


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## ostbucks98

i know you hate to be wrong all the time but it is what it is man sorry about hurting your feelings. if you want to believe that the state wants to keep deer herd down due to starvation...w/e man its a free country.

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## M.Magis

The guy that thinks deer eat and thrive on sticks is telling me I'm wrong. Nice.  
Go put your tin foil hat back on and let us "idiots" have a normal discussion.


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## supercanoe

I could do without it. Hopefully it goes away next year. We have such a great bow season in this state, why mess with it. Crossbows allow any man, woman, or child to have a fair crack at a deer during bow season. The herd has been reduced.


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## SeanStone

I have done extensive research on deer populations, my senior thesis in college focused on urban deer population in Oxford, Ohio. I did a 30 plus page paper that took hundreds of hours of mind numbing research to complete. It was a lot better than doing hundreds of hours of research on other topics so i cant complain. With that said I could go on and on about biological carrying capacities and cultural carrying capacities (maybe what the nationwide reference was to) of deer populations, but the sad fact is that 9 times out of 10 people will argue even when faced with facts. Heres my very simple response.

With increasing urbanization and deforestation in Ohio the deer herds are losing habitat. This trend is undeniable, and it will only worsen with time. The deer population is now as high as it has been in the last 100 years. Therefore, there are more deer in less habitat. At some point the system will have to balance itself, whether it be through natural processes (malnutrition, disease, etc) or by human efforts.

And yes deer can eat just about anything including your wifes flowers, but its not as nutritious as what they could/should be eating. (You could live on salad but im sure you'd want a steak every now and then ) Ive never seen a deer eat a bare branch, but that would suggest to me that its awfully hungry.

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## ostbucks98

a "bare branch" is still attached to a tree...i never said
"a stick":what:. everything stated above is true fact...but that is not the argument. the argument is that we have to thin the heard "now" because there is not enough food. i dont buy it. the state of ohio does not want 700k deer they want 500k...im not on that side of the fence.



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## M.Magis

ostbucks98 said:


> a "bare branch" is still attached to a tree...i never said
> "a stick":what:. everything stated above is true fact...but that is not the argument. the argument is that we have to thin the heard "now" because there is not enough food. i dont buy it. the state of ohio does not want 700k deer they want 500k...im not on that side of the fence.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


If you believe that, I assume youll be doing your part and not hunting this year, right?


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## supercanoe

The deer population is not as high now as it used to be, the harvest records prove that. The "Summary of Ohio Deer Seasons" put out by the ODNR has some very interesting stats that correspond with my observations about the deer herd in Ohio. The number of deer killed versus the number of permits sold was much higher in the 1990's and early 2000's, pointing to a higher success rate. Now that the opportunities for harvest have increased, success rates have decreased, pointing to a lower number of animals. The report includes percentage of yearling bucks in the antlerless harvest, this is a potential problem when doe permits are increased. About 1/4 of the antlerless harvest is yearling bucks. Bow hunters killed a lower percentage of yearling bucks than gun hunters. Pedicle diameter has increased in some areas, and decreased in others. It is a pretty informative publication if you take the time to break down the data.

I don't see the number of deer that I saw on a daily basis 10 or 20 years ago. I'm not talking about what I see while hunting, but what I see on my way to and from work, driving across a 10 county area for work every day, going to town to eat dinner, etc. I just don't see the numbers that I used to.


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## Bad Bub

ostbucks98 said:


> a "bare branch" is still attached to a tree...i never said
> "a stick":what:. everything stated above is true fact...but that is not the argument. the argument is that we have to thin the heard "now" because there is not enough food. i dont buy it. the state of ohio does not want 700k deer they want 500k...im not on that side of the fence.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I just can't believe that you think all these wildlife biologist, wildlife officers and such would be try to lower the population for no good reason.... those deer are, for the most part, what pays their bills. If they were to eliminate them, there wouldn't be much use for the wildlife office anymore....

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## Bad Bub

medium mouth said:


> im honestly not in favor of the early muzzleloading. I know a lot of people that will not go out to shoot a doe because its to warm to let the deer hang and like me when you work 6 to 7 days a week its hard enough to hunt let a lone butcher a deer right away. Also I am not in favor of the doe only that weekend because I barely have enough time to get a mature buck and then there goes another weekend I cant depend on. I understand why they are doing it doe only and that's because there are so many unlawful and dishonest hunters who might try and shove a arrow through the hole or even tag it in as a bow kill when they used a muzzleloader. I know that not everyone gun hunts but gun and bow are completely different. We can bowhunt 128 days in a row and I gurantee you after that the deer are not shook up near as much as 2 days of gun hunting. the dnr can say they are doing it for the farmers but me and all the other farmers I know don't take there deer to a butcher and like their deer to hang for the meat to cure so they will not shoot a doe when it is so warm out. just my 2 cents...or 3


I don't think they do it for the farmers so you can kill a doe earlier in the season. I believe it has to do with crop damage....

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## hopintocash2

i won't be hunting the early mz season. i won't take part in the kill more doe to reduce population. the population is just fine in the habitable areas. the problem lies in the city/no hunting areas. killing doe in large forest areas won't help solon, twinsburg, aurora, cleveland, etc. just my take on it.


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## Bad Bub

hopintocash2 said:


> i won't be hunting the early mz season. i won't take part in the kill more doe to reduce population. the population is just fine in the habitable areas. the problem lies in the city/no hunting areas. killing doe in large forest areas won't help solon, twinsburg, aurora, cleveland, etc. just my take on it.


Have you been hunting for the last 15 years??? Ever take advantage of the extra weekend we had up until this year? Buy a discounted antlerless tag? The full 2 week season we had in the late 90's? Notice how the bag limits have increased since the 90's? All they did was move the extra weekend into a more comfortable time of year. And then limited what you can kill and how you can kill it. Willing to bet less deer will die during this early muzzle loader season than last years bonus gun weekend....

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## jiggin'fool

This might have been asked already but I didn't want to read the entire conversation... Are you aloud to archery hunt that weekend and shoot a buck? I have heard no but haven't seen it in the regulations.... I already got a doe and my wife and I only eat 2 deer a year so if I can't buck hunt guess I might go steelhead fishing!


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## Lundy

No bucks that weekend bow or MZ


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## jiggin'fool

Thank you Lundy!


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## treytd32

SeanStone said:


> I have done extensive research on deer populations, my senior thesis in college focused on urban deer population in Oxford, Ohio. I did a 30 plus page paper that took hundreds of hours of mind numbing research to complete.


I'd like to read that if possible, I read through much more mundane research daily so that would be pretty interesting to me. It's hard to find research relatively close to me regarding the topic and that is practically in my backyard. I started doing my own research but ended up making too many assumptions to have a solid design and had to scrap it.


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## SeanStone

treytd32 said:


> I'd like to read that if possible, I read through much more mundane research daily so that would be pretty interesting to me. It's hard to find research relatively close to me regarding the topic and that is practically in my backyard. I started doing my own research but ended up making too many assumptions to have a solid design and had to scrap it.


Send me a pm sometime with your email address and ill see if I can send it to you in an email. The file size is huge.....i did a lot of gis mapping so I have a few high resolution maps included. Im leaving after work today to head up to the Midwest outdoor experience in Dayton....im going to camp tonight and then I have a kayak tourney tomorrow morning. I should get back late Saturday evening.

If anyone else is interested let me know. 

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## ezbite

medium mouth said:


> im honestly not in favor of the early muzzleloading. I know a lot of people that will not go out to shoot a doe because its to warm to let the deer hang and like me when you work 6 to 7 days a week its hard enough to hunt let a lone butcher a deer right away. Also I am not in favor of the doe only that weekend because I barely have enough time to get a mature buck and then there goes another weekend I cant depend on. I understand why they are doing it doe only and that's because there are so many unlawful and dishonest hunters who might try and shove a arrow through the hole or even tag it in as a bow kill when they used a muzzleloader. I know that not everyone gun hunts but gun and bow are completely different. We can bowhunt 128 days in a row and I gurantee you after that the deer are not shook up near as much as 2 days of gun hunting. the dnr can say they are doing it for the farmers but me and all the other farmers I know don't take there deer to a butcher and like their deer to hang for the meat to cure so they will not shoot a doe when it is so warm out. just my 2 cents...or 3


IMO, your 2 cents is way off... That's being nice too. Just one reply, 

So it's to warm to hang a deer now? I'm just wondering what you do with your bow kill at this time of the year?? Hang it somewhere else? 

Why not give the early mz season a chance? I myself am looking forward to it and plan on a kill..


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## crappiedude

ezbite said:


> IMO, your 2 cents is way off... That's being nice too. Just one reply,
> 
> So it's to warm to hang a deer now? *I'm just wondering what you do with your bow kill at this time of the year?? Hang it somewhere else?*
> 
> *Why not give the early mz season a chance?* I myself am looking forward to it and plan on a kill..


I agree. If I get the chance, I'll take a doe.


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## jaws01

I am on the fence about the doe only I like the early ML to get the kids out when it is not to cold but I don't like the fact I have to tell them they can't shoot a buck if that is what gives us the shot and those of us that work a 9 to 5 and have little vac time have limited time n the woods they want more doe killed they need a buy one get one on doe tags I shoot two deer a year no matter buck or doe I like to kill my doe early then hunt a buck but if I don't shoot a buck by Muzzleloader then 1st good doe goes down 

just my thoughts


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## BASSINaDL

Well this is dumb... If I see one of the bucks I've been after this weekend, I'm sorry but I'll put an arrow in him. But if I don't make it down to Guernsey co. My next place is aurora so I guess I'll do my part and pop a couple does.


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## bobk

BASSINaDL said:


> Well this is dumb... If I see one of the bucks I've been after this weekend, I'm sorry but I'll put an arrow in him. But if I don't make it down to Guernsey co. My next place is aurora so I guess I'll do my part and pop a couple does.


That's awesome


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## Bad Bub

BASSINaDL said:


> Well this is dumb... If I see one of the bucks I've been after this weekend, I'm sorry but I'll put an arrow in him. But if I don't make it down to Guernsey co. My next place is aurora so I guess I'll do my part and pop a couple does.


Yeah, poach one! That'll show 'em.... :thumbdown:

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## medium mouth

Bad Bub said:


> I don't think they do it for the farmers so you can kill a doe earlier in the season. I believe it has to do with crop damage....
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


 they don't d it for farmers they do it for crop damage? who do you think plants crops? and if I do get a buck early season I take it to get processed because im not going to lie, I do not trust myself caping the deer for a mount.


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## Bad Bub

medium mouth said:


> they don't d it for farmers they do it for crop damage? who do you think plants crops? and if I do get a buck early season I take it to get processed because im not going to lie, I do not trust myself caping the deer for a mount.


Your obviously not getting what I said...

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## ostbucks98

"This muzzleloader hunt encourages early antlerless harvest. Reducing the deer population early in the hunting season means that more resources will be available for the surviving herd later in the winter" 

this quote above is from the email i got today from dnr regarding the muzzle loader weekend..this is exactly what i call a crock of poo...the deer herd is fine and does not need "thinned". saying there is not enough food is a line of crap.

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## BASSINaDL

Bad Bub said:


> Yeah, poach one! That'll show 'em.... :thumbdown:
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Im not really serious... just a little upset I was never told by anyone before, I had to find out on the computer. Its only two days I guess.


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## M.Magis

BASSINaDL said:


> Im not really serious... just a little upset I was never told by anyone before, I had to find out on the computer. Its only two days I guess.


You're mad because no one told you? Last I checked it was your job to read the regulations.


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## hunt-n-fish

M.Magis said:


> You're mad because no one told you? Last I checked it was your job to read the regulations.


  

If you have questions read the regs or maybe go to the source and ask the ODOW, is that so hard to do? You can download the current regs onto your computer, so there's no excuse for not having one a copy. Great statement Magis!!!


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## crappiedude

M.Magis said:


> You're mad because no one told you? *Last I checked it was your job to read the regulations*.


It seems common that people don't read the regs. 
I talk to people every year that seem so surprised when I bring up a rule change in a discussion. It's just so easy to check anymore especially with the internet and all the changes are marked in red. 
It's a pretty simple process, ya just have to take a few minutes to look.


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## hopintocash2

Bad Bub said:


> Have you been hunting for the last 15 years??? Ever take advantage of the extra weekend we had up until this year? Buy a discounted antlerless tag? The full 2 week season we had in the late 90's? Notice how the bag limits have increased since the 90's? All they did was move the extra weekend into a more comfortable time of year. And then limited what you can kill and how you can kill it. Willing to bet less deer will die during this early muzzle loader season than last years bonus gun weekend....
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


been hunting the past 30 years, most of them in jefferson county,(how's the deer population doing there? used to be a top 5 county), no, i didn't buy anterless tags, yes i hunted the bonus weekend and 2nd week of gun. those weren't restricted to anterless only. did you hunt when it was buck or doe the first day then buck only the rest of the week? if you like the early mz season great, i'm not sure about it yet. let's give a try and see how it goes.


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## Bad Bub

hopintocash2 said:


> been hunting the past 30 years, most of them in jefferson county,(how's the deer population doing there? used to be a top 5 county), no, i didn't buy anterless tags, yes i hunted the bonus weekend and 2nd week of gun. those weren't restricted to anterless only. did you hunt when it was buck or doe the first day then buck only the rest of the week? if you like the early mz season great, i'm not sure about it yet. let's give a try and see how it goes.


I'm just saying, when it was a 2 week season, and the extra gun weekend the last few year, those were all methods to have more deer killed. But nobody complained about those. Nobody would be arguing if they had left it alone for this season. The biggest gripe is that for 2 days out of the entire deer season (all methods) hunters may not kill a buck. There will be no "doe slaughter". Not that many people even hunt with a muzzle loader. I guarantee more does died in last years bonus gun weekend than will die in this muzzle loader weekend. (Just for the record, I don't own a muzzle loader)

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## hopin to cash

I think our arguments on the state philosophy that the deer herd is striving should be divided into two discussions public land vs private/no hunting land. The public lands have taken a beating over the last few years with the large amount of antlerless tags aloud. I also believe the buck numbers take a beating because not all antlerless are does. I once arrowed a doe in early October and watched a fawn (yearling) try to nurse from her from the tree. I wonder what effect a large amount of does being shot will have on the young yearlings? Are they old enough to fend for themselves or do they still need that extra month prior to major breeding to stay with their mothers? I personally will no longer shoot a doe prior to ruts end or at least Thanksgiving for this reason.


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## M.Magis

hopin to cash said:


> I think our arguments on the state philosophy that the deer herd is striving should be divided into two discussions public land vs private/no hunting land. The public lands have taken a beating over the last few years with the large amount of antlerless tags aloud. I also believe the buck numbers take a beating because not all antlerless are does. I once arrowed a doe in early October and watched a fawn (yearling) try to nurse from her from the tree. I wonder what effect a large amount of does being shot will have on the young yearlings? Are they old enough to fend for themselves or do they still need that extra month prior to major breeding to stay with their mothers? I personally will no longer shoot a doe prior to ruts end or at least Thanksgiving for this reason.


Fawns can survive if orfaned in July, they certainly don't need their mothers in Oct. 
'All the doe tags" being used is a funny argument. The numbers of doe tags that have been used each year is available for anyone to see. No one seems to look at them, or they'd know that not many people shoot more than two does.


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## Lundy

Bad Bub,

I think more are complaining for many reasons than years ago because the overall population back then was on the increase. The population and harvest has been on a substantial decline the last 3 years.

I can only take away the intent of the changes from what the ODNR says themselves about the elimination of the 2 day bonus gun season and the introduction of the 2 day MZ season.

They stated that the elimination of the 2 day bonus was because of declining participation and the reduction in harvest numbers. 

They stated that they hoped to increase interest, participation AND harvest by introducing this new MZ season in October to the previous levels, or above, of the 2 day bonus gun.

I personally think that message was somewhat of a smoke screen to at least partially obscure other motivations, primarily to continue the reduction of the population through targeted reduction of the baby makers. If they can achieve a doe harvest that is even close to the declining 2 day bonus numbers the last couple of years they will be happy.


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## hopin to cash

It almost sounds like Magis is a high fence owner hoping Ohio will let all the deer be killed so he can increase business...js


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## crappiedude

hopin to cash said:


> It almost sounds like Magis is a high fence owner hoping Ohio will let all the deer be killed so he can increase business...js


He doesn't sound like that at all to me. He seems like a guy who likes the outdoors and tries to separate fact from fiction.


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## M.Magis

hopin to cash said:


> It almost sounds like Magis is a high fence owner hoping Ohio will let all the deer be killed so he can increase business...js



Can you explain how you got that from anything I said? What dont you agree with, and please give me your argument as to why Im wrong. Im willing to listen to real facts, but please leave out any sort of whining or just because answers. I get enough of that at home.


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## ostbucks98

come on now i thought everyone knew m.magis was really ken wisenhunt...all kidding aside not all of his arguments are fact vs. fiction but difference of opinion. it makes for fun debate.

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## crappiedude

ostbucks98 said:


> come on now i thought everyone knew m.magis was really ken wisenhunt...a*ll kidding aside not all of his arguments are fact vs. fiction but difference of opinion. it makes for fun debate.*
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I agree and well said. I just worded it wrong.


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## hopin to cash

OK we all friends here with the same common ground we love to fish, hunt hike, bike or better yet just be outdoors. Now lets get to the FACTS... I did shoot a large doe in early October and watched a young deer try to nurse from her. I hunt with a group a 7 guys who have seen a noticeable decline in deer populations in the Jefferson, Coshocton and adjoining public lands areas. No I do not have a biology degree nor do I study the damn results every year like I'm taking a test on them. I am only stating my individual "FACTS" on the current deer population as I see it. If you want to shoot a doe this weekend hell go ahead. I guess if I trusted the Ohio team that set the deer regulations up and they were not influenced by some political agenda than I too would shoot the doe that brings her two fawns in every night to my back yard to eat acorns.


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## M.Magis

Now wait a second, I never said you were wrong regarding any of that. I didn&#8217;t dispute there&#8217;s probably been a decline in numbers where you hunt. I assume there has been, that&#8217;s been the goal for at least 10 years. I just said not very many people have been using the doe tags, like so many suggest. The number of doe tags could have been knocked back to two per person and it wouldn&#8217;t have made much difference. 
And I never said you didn&#8217;t see a fawn nursing in Oct. Of course you did, they usually nurse well into the winter, at least to some degree. I said fawns can survive just fine on their own even if they&#8217;re orphaned in July, which is certainly true. Just because an animal isn&#8217;t weaned, doesn&#8217;t mean it needs its mother. You asked a question and I answered it. People are always trying to find justification for not shooting does, like it&#8217;s not manly enough. If you don&#8217;t want to that&#8217;s fine, don&#8217;t. But don&#8217;t use the &#8220;poor fawns&#8221; argument, because it doesn&#8217;t hold water.


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## ostbucks98

well in the movie "Bambi"....

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## MassillonBuckeye

hopin to cash said:


> I think our arguments on the state philosophy that the deer herd is striving should be divided into two discussions public land vs private/no hunting land. The public lands have taken a beating over the last few years with the large amount of antlerless tags aloud. I also believe the buck numbers take a beating because not all antlerless are does. I once arrowed a doe in early October and watched a fawn (yearling) try to nurse from her from the tree. I wonder what effect a large amount of does being shot will have on the young yearlings? Are they old enough to fend for themselves or do they still need that extra month prior to major breeding to stay with their mothers? I personally will no longer shoot a doe prior to ruts end or at least Thanksgiving for this reason.


I've seen more deer and the biggest buck I've ever seen in my life on public hunting grounds this spring which is why I decided to hunt public. Ps, I won't shoot that buck even during gun season. Not looking for a wall hanger. He gets a pass.


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## treytd32

I think that an orphaned fawn would do fine at this point outside of experience. Once orphaned fawns are often "adopted" by other doe or find another doe group to run with, which makes up for the lack of experience. I usually only shoot the solo dolos, who seem to travel through on my farm because the doe fawn pairs seem to stick around the next couple years.

I agree with the idea that shooting the doe is to lower the population and try to get the ratio better possibly.. but the ratio thing got thrown even more out of whack in a couple studies I read in which hunters had to ear a buck tag by shooting 2+ doe before. Ratio went from something like 1.6 to 1, to 1.9 to .8. So it seems more like pop control.


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## buckeyebowman

OK, here's my 2 cents. Back in the '70's when I started bowhunting, the ODNR was concerned with growing the deer herd and the bag limits reflected that. Yet even then a couple of the Game Protectors I knew talked about "The Pennsylvania Syndrome". What's that? That's having a bazillion runty little does eating everything that doesn't move, and very few bucks, mostly small ones at that.

I've seen it firsthand. About the same time a friend invited me to his Uncle's cabin for the first 2 days of PA gun season. It was somewhere near Marienville, as I recall. I must have seen 150 deer easy in those 2 days, and not a single one with antlers! Of course it was buck only. Driving around looking at the meat poles at every cabin there weren't that many bucks hanging considering the number of hunters out. And most seemed to be about 1.5 years old. Lots of spikes and fork horns, nothing big. 

The operative philosophy was "don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs". Ultimately it led to a buck/doe ratio that was so out of whack it was nearly unbelievable. 

To each their own as to whether or not to participate. As for myself I'll go out, but will probably carry the bow. The farm I hunt hasn't harvested a thing yet, and all the places where a little extra reach might be useful are full of corn, and the ML is useless in the thickets since you can't even see a deer in there at 50 yards. I hunt for meat, not antlers, and I always start the season with only an antlerless permit in my pocket. Once that's done, then I hunt for a buck.


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## M.Magis

buckeyebowman said:


> OK, here's my 2 cents. Back in the '70's when I started bowhunting, the ODNR was concerned with growing the deer herd and the bag limits reflected that. Yet even then a couple of the Game Protectors I knew talked about "The Pennsylvania Syndrome". What's that? That's having a bazillion runty little does eating everything that doesn't move, and very few bucks, mostly small ones at that.
> 
> I've seen it firsthand. About the same time a friend invited me to his Uncle's cabin for the first 2 days of PA gun season. It was somewhere near Marienville, as I recall. I must have seen 150 deer easy in those 2 days, and not a single one with antlers! Of course it was buck only. Driving around looking at the meat poles at every cabin there weren't that many bucks hanging considering the number of hunters out. And most seemed to be about 1.5 years old. Lots of spikes and fork horns, nothing big.
> 
> The operative philosophy was "don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs". Ultimately it led to a buck/doe ratio that was so out of whack it was nearly unbelievable.
> 
> To each their own as to whether or not to participate. As for myself I'll go out, but will probably carry the bow. The farm I hunt hasn't harvested a thing yet, and all the places where a little extra reach might be useful are full of corn, and the ML is useless in the thickets since you can't even see a deer in there at 50 yards. I hunt for meat, not antlers, and I always start the season with only an antlerless permit in my pocket. Once that's done, then I hunt for a buck.



Excellent point. Were seeing a little bit of that here, though not to the extent the PA and WV did. Five to seven years ago the deer population was far beyond what it should have been, and not healthy. But, that has become the standard that so many people use to gauge how many deer they should be seeing. Now that the population has been lowered to a better number, people think theres a problem, when in reality things are better than theyve been in years. Five years after Gary Alt implemented some drastic measures to get PAs deer population under control, youd have thought he killed off the whole herd when talking to some of the hunters up there. They were devastated they werent seeing 50 deer in one setting. People have a hard time separating whats best for the deer herd as a whole, and whats best for their own hunting.


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## hopintocash2

let's not forget that pa also implemented a buck size restriction. so every 1-1/2 old buck wasn't shot. as far as ohio goes, i think alot of it has to do with where you hunt. some areas seem to be doing well, where other areas are not. i know i don't see the deer i used to in my hunting areas. so the question is, would a hunter let a 1-1/2 buck pass if they knew they could easily get an anterless later in the year. i guess the point i'm getting at is, are young bucks getting shot due to lack of anterless deer to get later in the year?


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## Gills63

Right Magis a difference of short term vs long term goals/ objectives. 

I'm not a big fan of this early ml. Why? Because! That's why. My only real confusion is why ml? Why not allow shotguns if you really want does killed. Our season now has 6 days of ml and 7 of shotgun. With this shift towards ml being almost equal in days the number of ml hunters will go up. Good for sales and taxes but what's the point of not allowing shotguns then too?

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## bobk

Gills63 said:


> Right Magis a difference of short term vs long term goals/ objectives.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of this early ml. Why? Because! That's why. My only real confusion is why ml? Why not allow shotguns if you really want does killed. Our season now has 6 days of ml and 7 of shotgun. With this shift towards ml being almost equal in days the number of ml hunters will go up. Good for sales and taxes but what's the point of not allowing shotguns then too?
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I'm not sure why muzzy over shotgun good question. Could be they want to see how it goes this year. If the odnr is not happy with the number they might change it to shotguns next year. Just my guess.


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## Bad Bub

M.Magis said:


> Excellent point. Were seeing a little bit of that here, though not to the extent the PA and WV did. Five to seven years ago the deer population was far beyond what it should have been, and not healthy. But, that has become the standard that so many people use to gauge how many deer they should be seeing. Now that the population has been lowered to a better number, people think theres a problem, when in reality things are better than theyve been in years. Five years after Gary Alt implemented some drastic measures to get PAs deer population under control, youd have thought he killed off the whole herd when talking to some of the hunters up there. They were devastated they werent seeing 50 deer in one setting. People have a hard time separating whats best for the deer herd as a whole, and whats best for their own hunting.


This is probably the best post I've read in this thread. ( and buckeyebowman's as well)

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## hopintocash2

first off, i would like to thank everyone who has replied, keeping this a debate and not a nasty argument. good job. after reading thru this several times, i get the feeling hunting style/preferences vary and that sways opinion. some hunters want to put meat in the freezer early, some later. at the end of the day, we are all doing the same thing, just differs what time of the season we do it. i myself like to buck hunt early and fill the freezer later, others like to fill the freezer and then buck hunt. nothing wrong with either method. i like to carry my buck tag as long as i can in the event i drop a small buck i mistaked for a anterless. i try not to shoot young bucks but it happens. sometimes spikes or small forks are hard to see in the heat of the moment. this weekend there will be no way to legally tag this deer. heavy vegetation will increase this happening. what is to become of these oops deer? i suppose the percentage will be small, but it's going to happen. i'm not for this early season, but i may be wrong,(won't be the first time ). so good luck to those that go, be safe, and enjoy the hunt.


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## Ozdog

I'd be more inclined for the deer hunt if we still had check stations. We'll see how many nice bucks get called in the following week as bow kills.
That said, I was going to take the boy out but I think we'll go fishing instead. there's a strong bite on with the BullGills. 
Warm weather and killing deer = a crap load of work. You got to get them out, peeled, quartered and on ice ASAP. Been there done that too many times.

Good luck to all going out.


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## rutnut245

I also think this early muzzle loader season is a TERRIBLE idea. I don't think it will affect the rut other than making the survivors being even more edgy than they are after a month of bow hunting. Probably gonna need Prozac.You can't even call a refuge a refuge anymore as they have all kinds of controlled hunts for everything. The Ottawa national wildlife refuge is a perfect example. It has about 15-20% of the deer it had just 15 years ago and ducks are just about non existent compared to what they were 40 years ago.

Although I'm not a fan of leasing, those large private leases are going to be the basis of the seed crop in the not so distant future for our deer herd IMHO. It's all about the money and caving in to the insurance companies. Just look at what the herd reduction has done to Pa. What a disaster that I hope Ohio doesn't repeat.

I love hunting with my ML and I've been doin it for over 40 years but I won't be takin part in this. It just doesn't seem right when there's leaves on the trees and the temps are so warm. The same reason I don't do the early goose hunting anymore. Swattin mosquitoes in 90 degree weather AIN'T goose hunting. Sometimes change isn't always for the better.JMHO


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## ostbucks98

my concerns over the population is jackson,vinton,athens and megs counties used to be at the top of the state kill list and they have dropped considerably. a majority of hunters would drive to these counties from all over due to excellant deer oppurtunity. now i find myself who lives in vinton county actually traveling north to pursue deer at times on family property around frankfort and out to noble county. i think the focus on reducing herd has hit these areas hard and allowed the urban deer to boom to high numbers.

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## hopin to cash

OSU hit it out of the park... what the state fails to see "or ignores" is the fact public lands have taken a beating over the last few years. The areas that are not hunter accessible hold the majority of your so called over population.


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## M.Magis

Yep, I'm sure the wildlife biologists aren't nearly smart enough to realize what the armchair biologists know.  
Maybe you should all call them and let them know they don't know how to do their job. I'm certain they&#8217;ll realize that all their education and experience was for naught. The guys on the internet are the ones that know what&#8217;s going on, they&#8217;re sure to recruit you.


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## ostbucks98

since your so smart elaborate on how the biologist come up with their numbers....here is a clue 90% is based off field surveys.

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## M.Magis

I didn&#8217;t say I was smarter than them or even as smart. I just said you guys aren&#8217;t either. 
If it&#8217;s based 90% off of surveys (please show reference), then that must mean most people disagree with you.


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## ostbucks98

your right they are out walking the woods and counting each deer they see.

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## ostbucks98

good read if anyone has time

http://www.deermanage.com/?p=762 

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## jray

not true an acquaintance of mine is a pilot for the division. Most deer and turkey population surveys are done from the air. They take quite a bit of time because he has to fly over enough area to get an adequate sample. And believe me you can see most of the deer from a plane especially with the high tech camera equipment they are using.


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## ostbucks98

how well does that airplane work in heavily forested areas? 

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## M.Magis

ostbucks98 said:


> how well does that airplane work in heavily forested areas?
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


It works fine. Next question. 
It's amazing how people with zero experience with something think they know more than those that do it for a living.


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## ostbucks98

oh i have plenty of experience with infra-red thermal imaging technology (6 years army) just didnt know it was available to locate deer ....i would like to see the infra-red returns a turkey make...lol...wtf ever you guys. 

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## HookSet Harvey

I sure hope to pop a big fat doe with my thermal scope while taking a dnr survey this weekend while everyone else is arguing, speculating, and not participating. 
I do think the deer pop is down, but I still see enough to make me happy...and all I hunt is public land.


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## supercanoe

When the numbers come in this season will probably result in a lower kill than the 2 day bonus gun season, so it could be a good thing for those who want more deer around. With the mixed opinions, high temps, green cover, and standing crops I don't expect a big kill. I am glad to see the bonus gun season go away. It will make for better late season bow and ML hunting.


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## hopintocash2

M.Magis said:


> Yep, I'm sure the wildlife biologists aren't nearly smart enough to realize what the armchair biologists know.
> Maybe you should all call them and let them know they don't know how to do their job. I'm certain theyll realize that all their education and experience was for naught. The guys on the internet are the ones that know whats going on, theyre sure to recruit you.


just out of curiousity, how much time, and how much intimate ground do these wildlife biologists cover? when you refer to armchair biologists, are you talking about the people that are in the woods, covering a lot of ground, taking note of what they are seeing and not seeing?


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## hopintocash2

Quote:


Originally Posted by ostbucks98 View Post 

how well does that airplane work in heavily forested areas? 

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It works fine. Next question. 
It's amazing how people with zero experience with something think they know more than those that do it for a living. 





magis, be careful on you account of how well the airplane count works.....


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## M.Magis

I haven't read the last several responses, so I'm not ignoring anyone. I simply don't feel like having such a stupid argument anymore. Some people are so arrogent they refuse to accept that they aren't the smartest people around. The people paid to do these things are far more knowledgable than anyone here. I'm certain they don't care what a bunch on internet experts think. And as usual, the ones whining the loudest are usually the ones with the poorest track record in the woods. Everyone likes to have an excuse for their failures.


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## ostbucks98

why are you always on the offensive? why cant i have an opinion? why if we disagree does it mean im not a smart person? just because i earn a paycheck and have a bachelors degree doesnt mean everything i say in my field is correct and fact. its my opinion. im glad people have faith in these experts because they are who the state trust. but based on past practice i have every right to be skeptical of their findings. as far as hunting success well i dont brag often but if i down many more bucks im gonna need to build another garage cause my walls are full. 

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## treytd32

I knew that for management that they used ir at night from trucks then spot light and shoot the deer but I did not know they used it from a plane. Do they also do it from helo? Bc if so then I have had them circling my area the last 2 times I've been out hunting. That or they're on to my shine operations


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## Cat Mangler

I don't know a whole lot about deer by any means, let alone the reasoning of why the state makes the decisions they do. I like to believe they make those decisions in the best interest of the herd and not the hunters, although when the Gov. is involved, who really knows how well these are thought through. Right?

Heck I have never even downed a deer myself, so all I know is what I've observed as a hiker/fisherman. What I will say to this pleasantly hateful debate is that there is a HUGE difference between a deer, male and female, from the urban areas and the "sticks". When I'm fishing out in the boonies, I don't see a lot of deer. Living five minutes from Eastwood metropark in dayton, I'm there a lot and I see deer almost every outing. 

I don't assume there is a lack of numbers in the forests and more wild areas though. I say this since, and this is just my unresearched theory, these urban deer in non-huntable grounds are just plain out used to being around us bald apes. Last week I walked up on a pair of younguns within 5' and they just stood there chewing grass and staring at me like I was rudely interrupting their lunch. I've seen this duo several times this year and I think they're as used to me as I them.

In fact, I have either come across the dumbest bravest or both of bucks in the state tonight. I say this since I was walking on leaves and twigs kinda loudly to a fishing hole, and even smoking a cig up wind, when I walked within ten feet of this guy.








Walked right past him about ten strides or so and just happened to look towards the tree line instead of the water and saw him just chilling and chewing away. We just sat there staring at each other for at least five minutes. I eventually though " hey I should snap a pic, and that's when he started to walk away slowly. He'd take a few step, id take a few, and repeated a couple of times. 

Like I said, I'm no hunter (yet) and certainly no biologist but, when I'm on family land in megs highland Adams or any other out there county, any deer id come across would bolt at the first clue of my presence.

I will say that watching grown men argue amongst themselves like my 7, 9, and 12 year old daughters is quite amusing, to say the least!

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## hopin to cash

I claim movie rights before anyone else...

Sorry to all those I offended here...

I have spent my whole life hunting with those very close to the count situation that Magis speaks of and they are only a sampling of a particular area. "snap shot"

How about I throw another penny for my thoughts out there?

Has anyone read the signs on public lands that say " This timbering was done to create a diversified wild life area" I wonder what the animals did for diversified wild life area prior to us coming along? 

I don't see a diversified wild life area in Solon but I sure see a lot of deer.

So who made the decision to timber wild life areas? (biologist or bureaucrat?)


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## hopin to cash

I just counted every deer in Ohio using the last google earth pictures and the numbers are down from last year... does that make me a professional biologist?


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## supercanoe

Timber management is crucial if you want to raise deer. They need successional growth. Logging is a good thing for many wildlife species. I wish that they would timber more public land.


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## ostbucks98

supercanoe said:


> Timber management is crucial if you want to raise deer. They need successional growth. Logging is a good thing for many wildlife species. I wish that they would timber more public land.


i wish i had some way of having an ariel map of vinton county 12 years ago compared to one today...its amazing how much has been removed.

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## Bad Bub

hopin to cash said:


> I claim movie rights before anyone else...
> 
> Sorry to all those I offended here...
> 
> I have spent my whole life hunting with those very close to the count situation that Magis speaks of and they are only a sampling of a particular area. "snap shot"
> 
> How about I throw another penny for my thoughts out there?
> 
> Has anyone read the signs on public lands that say " This timbering was done to create a diversified wild life area" I wonder what the animals did for diversified wild life area prior to us coming along?
> 
> I don't see a diversified wild life area in Solon but I sure see a lot of deer.
> 
> So who made the decision to timber wild life areas? (biologist or bureaucrat?)


Forest did a lot for diversity in the forests before human intervention came along....

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## crappiedude

hopin to cash said:


> *I just counted every deer in Ohio* using the last google earth pictures and the numbers are down from last year... does that make me a professional biologist?


Can you tell me if that big 9 point survived from last year in my hunting spot..southern Clermont county?


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## exide9922

I'm looking forward to the weekend personally. I dont think it will be as bad as everyone thinks. Once the guns start firing, a lot of corn to hide in.... I dont know where everyone else hunts but where I do, the corn is still up


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## johnny fish

Here's an idea guys, ..... since the season has been set for this year either hunt it or don't hunt it!! With all the debating going on it's a wonder any of you have time to hunt or fish!!


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## ostbucks98

johnny fish said:


> Here's an idea guys, ..... since the season has been set for this year either hunt it or don't hunt it!! With all the debating going on it's a wonder any of you have time to hunt or fish!!


well that would be boring...besides most these post come when im in the field from my phone.

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## TeamClose

Maybe you would see more deer if your went playing on your phone


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## ostbucks98

yeah cause its so distracting.

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## jray

every decision the state makes is based on money and who complains the most. Antis, hunters, farmers, vehicle insurance companies, they all have an agenda and typically laws are made to be somewhere in the middle. This weekend will be fun for us muzzleloader guys who are tired of hunting in the worst possible weather for smokepoles and tired of hunting spooky deer. As before mentioned it will also lower the total harvest, (not as many as bonus weekend) and maybe help the buck doe ratio a bit as the divisions plan calls for. My personal opinion is that if they were going to do it they should have just made it buck or doe for lots of reasons but hey im not going to complain im going to shut up and hunt.


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## ostbucks98

dont twist it up...im a muzzleloader guy also and i prefer snow on the ground. this isnt a crusade against muzzleloaders its an argument over purpose of this weekend and is it justified.

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## buckeyebowman

Ozdog said:


> I'd be more inclined for the deer hunt if we still had check stations. We'll see how many nice bucks get called in the following week as bow kills.
> That said, I was going to take the boy out but I think we'll go fishing instead. there's a strong bite on with the BullGills.
> Warm weather and killing deer = a crap load of work. You got to get them out, peeled, quartered and on ice ASAP. Been there done that too many times.
> 
> Good luck to all going out.


That's a great point as well. Opening weekend I had several easy shots at does. They had no idea I was in their world, but I let them all walk. Why? It's early, it's warm, I'd have to (depending where the deer fell) drag it up a slope through a standing corn field to get it out. All the time worrying about spoilage. 

The weather for this weekend looks warm as well. If it is, I'll probably do the same as I've been doing. Makes me wonder how those boys down South manage it.


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## treytd32

if you have google earth on your computer you can see historical images, while much more grainy you can definitely see the amount of development since then. That state of Ohio's green shrinks more and more every year


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## Cat Mangler

treytd32 said:


> if you have google earth on your computer you can see historical images, while much more grainy you can definitely see the amount of development since then. That state of Ohio's green shrinks more and more every year


I haven't looked at the historicals my self but, I will say that looking at a brown landscape that I know used to be all green is kinda depressing.

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## MassillonBuckeye

I like looking at places I havent been in a loooong time. And much of it is not developed or on the edge of development.


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## Muskarp

M.Magis said:


> I haven't read the last several responses, so I'm not ignoring anyone. I simply don't feel like having such a stupid argument anymore. Some people are so arrogent they refuse to accept that they aren't the smartest people around. The people paid to do these things are far more knowledgable than anyone here. I'm certain they don't care what a bunch on internet experts think. And as usual, the ones whining the loudest are usually the ones with the poorest track record in the woods. Everyone likes to have an excuse for their failures.


Yourself included?

The same experts that kept the grouse limit at three, while the population plummeted for 15 years? While most understand the cause is habitat loss, more than hunting. The "experts" should have been, and still should be, more proactive! Every grouse hunter I know imposed lower rules upon themselves prior to the State crawling along!
Haven't shot at an Ohio bird in two years. The five or so years before that it was one Ohio bird per year.
There is no logical reason for the season to extend 6 weeks longer than the pheasant season, which is nothing more than farm raised bird shooting, with the exception of a few counties.
The problem with the current system is people do not have any other birds to chase late season, so they target the few remaining grouse.

But, I guess if I were paid to manage the grouse population I'd probably see it differently.


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## hopin to cash

crappiedude said:


> Can you tell me if that big 9 point survived from last year in my hunting spot..southern Clermont county?


Tara Server has a nice 13 point in Clermont county... lol
:!:!:!


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## buckeyebowman

I don't know how it is where you are, but around here it's looking like the early antlerless ML season may be a big bust. I didn't even go out with the bow because it's just too dang warm for my taste. I'm sitting at my computer with the front door and all the windows open. At 10 at night on October 12th no less! I did stop at my buddy's house today to work on a gun for him. He lives out in the country where quite a bit of hunting goes on. I took the long way there and saw no cars parked in the usual places, and no hunter orange in evidence. He told me he never heard a single gun shot all day! It will be interesting to see the numbers.


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## Bad Bub

buckeyebowman said:


> I don't know how it is where you are, but around here it's looking like the early antlerless ML season may be a big bust. I didn't even go out with the bow because it's just too dang warm for my taste. I'm sitting at my computer with the front door and all the windows open. At 10 at night on October 12th no less! I did stop at my buddy's house today to work on a gun for him. He lives out in the country where quite a bit of hunting goes on. I took the long way there and saw no cars parked in the usual places, and no hunter orange in evidence. He told me he never heard a single gun shot all day! It will be interesting to see the numbers.


Same here in Jefferson county. I've been running around all day and not a single sign of a hunter.

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## crappiedude

I went out in the morning yesterday. Right at daylight I saw a lone antlerless deer working towards me. Since it was all by itself I decided to pass because I figured it was a button buck. About 9 I had 2 small bucks come in below me and pushed each other around for awhile. I stayed in the stand till 11:30 and headed home. It's just too hot. 
We're not hunting today. I never heard a shot but I had earphones in all morning. My partner said he only heard 1 shot.
I did see a few other hunters were out.


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## MassillonBuckeye

I was out for 5-6 hours. Didn't see anything, heard one shot. I changed locations and saw a group of guys who got two does. Park rangers(on public hunting ground) told me they weren't seeing many hunters. He was also funny when I asked him about where I could hunt. I had a map from ODNRs website but he was telling me that wasn't good enough and I needed to goto the main office and get a map since the areas change all the time?!?!? Admittedly I was new to the area(marked public hunting on map, and hunters there with deer), but you'd think the rangers would know better than a map which can lack a bit of accuracy. I didn't really want to ask the hunters I just congratulated where they were hunting.. Oh well. I'll go back up there and scout around when I have more time.

Did see a few fat squirrels and a fox so was a good day nonetheless!


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## exide9922

I was out the full day yesterday. Heard probably 10-12 shots. Most early in the morning. Me and my father in law never saw a deer. It's the corn still being up here. Until its down they just dont come out of it. Not one shot this morning... Might head in soon and come back out towards evening 


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## AEFISHING

I think I heard two shots and that was it. I would bet the numbers are way low but I could be wrong. I had one come in last night the size of a small dog so I passed and let her walk. Did have 4 Toms fly up next to me to roost. I never had that happen before.


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## Ozdog

I didn't keep up on the new season as it was comming to pass. I did just find out over the weekend that this replaced the 2nd little 2 day gun season. That's a mistake, it seemed that a lot deer were being killed those two days.


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## BASSINaDL

If they are unsatisfied with the numbers last weekend.. It would be nice to have a full week early ml season buck or doe. I would invest in one of them smoke poles.


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## ezbite

I got mine a 10 am Saturday and will be going to PA this weekend and thru the week till I kill another doe. I agree I think more people would hunt the early mz season if it was a week long like it is in PA. PA is anterless only also and runs oct 19-26


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## squid_1

Was down at AEP Saturday and Sunday and didn't see many hunters. I did see the straw hat army putting on a deer drive in the heat Saturday.. Only heard a few shots all weekend. Numbers will definitely be lower than expected. The YTD numbers are way down compared to last year as well. If any changes are made to the length of an early MZ season it should stipulate traditional muzzle loaders no inline. Now that would be interesting as would kill a doe before buck tag is issued.


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## supercanoe

Earlier in this thread carrying capacity was mentioned. The ODNR wrote in the 2012-2013 season summary " Populations have never exceeded the biological carrying capacity of the habitat. Deer herd condition data collected annually and through periodic studies confirm this." I found that an interesting statement due to their continued goal of herd reduction. I didn't hear much shooting this weekend. I went hunting saturday morning and heard 3 shots. I heard 1 shot way off in the distance sunday morning while burning trash. I never saw anyone hunting.


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## buckeyebowman

ezbite said:


> I got mine a 10 am Saturday and will be going to PA this weekend and thru the week till I kill another doe. I agree
> I think more people would hunt the early mz season if it was a week long like it is in PA. PA is anterless only also and runs oct 19-26


Sheeesh! People on this forum were screaming blue bloody murder about a 2 day season! Imagine if it was a whole week. They'd be trying to convince you that it was the end of civilization, as well as the the whitetail deer!



supercanoe said:


> Earlier in this thread carrying capacity was mentioned. The ODNR wrote in the 2012-2013 season summary
> " Populations have never exceeded the biological carrying capacity of the habitat. Deer herd condition data collected annually and through periodic studies confirm this." I found that an interesting statement due to their continued goal of herd reduction. I didn't hear much shooting this weekend. I went hunting saturday morning and heard 3 shots. I heard 1 shot way off in the distance sunday morning while burning trash. I never saw anyone hunting.


But think about it. Isn't that a good thing? We really don't want the deer population to exceed the carrying the capacity of the habitat. That, if left unchecked, leads to the "Pennsylvania Syndrome" I referenced in my earlier post. It seems that the ODNR has been pretty responsible in controlling the size of the deer herd with seasons and bag limits.


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## reo

M.Magis said:


> I haven't read the last several responses, so I'm not ignoring anyone. I simply don't feel like having such a stupid argument anymore. Some people are so arrogent they refuse to accept that they aren't the smartest people around. The people paid to do these things are far more knowledgable than anyone here. I'm certain they don't care what a bunch on internet experts think. And as usual, the ones whining the loudest are usually the ones with the poorest track record in the woods. Everyone likes to have an excuse for their failures.



Look, when the folks that get paid to manage do so with a broad brush, applying the same management tools to wide swaths of a state that varies greatly in habitat, hunter effort and hunter opportunity it is bound to have some shortcomings. I do not need a PHD to realize this. In this case it has left some areas overharvested and not addressed the overpopulation in other areas. I do not need to see a dozen deer every sit but it would be nice to see one every other time or so. MANY others in the areas I hunt report the same frustrations. Good hunters with some nice trophies under their belt. They do not need PHDs to hunt hard and smart but they do know there are far too few deer in areas that used to have very abundant AND healthy populations. The way the herd is heading only big insurance and the Farm Bureau will be happy and I honestly believe they are the only voices being heard in Columbus. Big money = power and they could not care less if there were no deer at all. 

I'll pass on the big bowl of condescension that you are trying to serve up as well


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## Archery Patriot

Shot a doe Saturday morning at 0800! Never saw another hunter other than my dad!


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## buckeyebowman

reo said:


> Look, when the folks that get paid to manage do so with a broad brush, applying the same management tools to wide swaths of a state that varies greatly in habitat, hunter effort and hunter opportunity it is bound to have some shortcomings. I do not need a PHD to realize this. In this case it has left some areas overharvested and not addressed the overpopulation in other areas.
> I do not need to see a dozen deer every sit but it would be nice to see one every other time or so. MANY others in the areas I hunt report the same frustrations. Good hunters with some nice trophies under their belt. They do not need PHDs to hunt hard and smart but they do know there are far too few deer in areas that used to have very abundant AND healthy populations. The way the herd is heading only big insurance and the Farm Bureau will be happy and I honestly believe they are the only voices being heard in Columbus. Big money = power and they could not care less if there were no deer at all.
> 
> I'll pass on the big bowl of condescension that you are trying to serve up as well


That's a great point, and I think it's one that the ODNR is trying to address with this new scheme. Deer hunting "zones" no longer have to be comprised of contiguous counties. It's now a county by county management situation. For instance, my BIL has a cabin down in Washington Cty. It's on a dirt road, and we drive nothing but dirt roads unless we want to drive all the way to Marietta for dinner! The bag limit in that county for this season is 3 deer, no more than 2 antlerless. Where I live, Mahoning Cty, which is far more urban and you have to really search to find a dirt road, the bag limit is 4 deer, no more than 3 antlerless. When is the last time you saw a county in NE Ohio with a bag limit greater than one in SE Ohio?


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## jaws01

U have me a lil lost with this no more then two antlerless deer in a three deer county and no morre the three antlerless in a four deer county that is not the case if you buy four tags three either sex and one antlerless you could shoot up to four doe if you wanted to 

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## Overwatchmike

Was out both mornings with my kids on public land that normally gets hunted hard and I only heard a total of 3 shots both days...... cool thing was being able to see 3 different bucks both days and my 3 year old son being with me to see all 3 of them. No real size to any of them, small 6 pointers at best. This was accomplished with us sitting on the ground against a tree with no blind and the deer were within 30 yards of us. The smile on his face was priceless!

I was really shocked that I didn't run into another hunter both days.....

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## buckeyebowman

jaws01 said:


> U have me a lil lost with this no more then two antlerless deer in a three deer county and no morre the three antlerless in a four deer county that is not the case if you buy four tags three either sex and one antlerless you could shoot up to four doe if you wanted to
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Ummmmmmmm, errrrrrrr, ahhhhhhhhhh! You know what? When you're right, you're right! And you, jaws01, are absolutely right! What I did was bend the rules, in my mind, to the way I see deer hunting. Early in the season I go out with only an antlerless permit. I like to put a doe in the freezer and then settle down to the "serious" business of buck hunting. But, if you're willing to burn the "expensive" either sex deer permit ($24) on a slickhead you are more than welcome to do so.


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## ostbucks98

i like to start them out young but "wow" 3 years old? you have way more patience then i do..lol...mine we're 5 before i let them tag along.

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## jaws01

buckeyebowman said:


> Ummmmmmmm, errrrrrrr, ahhhhhhhhhh! You know what? When you're right, you're right! And you, jaws01, are absolutely right! What I did was bend the rules, in my mind, to the way I see deer hunting. Early in the season I go out with only an antlerless permit. I like to put a doe in the freezer and then settle down to the "serious" business of buck hunting. But, if you're willing to burn the "expensive" either sex deer permit ($24) on a slickhead you are more than welcome to do so.


I do the same thing I put a doe down and start to buck hunt but I would rather put down a doe with last tag then eat the tag I have ate them many different ways none taste the same 

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## jaws01

ostbucks98 said:


> i like to start them out young but "wow" 3 years old? you have way more patience then i do..lol...mine we're 5 before i let them tag along.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I let my son tag along this weekend for the first time he just turned 7 and we tagged a doe 

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## buckeyebowman

jaws01 said:


> I do the same thing I put a doe down and start to buck hunt but I would rather put down a doe with last tag then eat the tag I have ate them many different ways none taste the same
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Yep! I've eaten tag soup a time or two holding out for that buck. And with antlerless permits expiring on December 1, it's a decision one will definitely have to make in the late season.


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## ostbucks98

a wasted $24 tag means you enjoyed a full season of hunting.

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## buckeyebowman

ostbucks98 said:


> a wasted $24 tag means you enjoyed a full season of hunting.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy hunting. But I think I enjoy eating tasty venison just a little bit more!


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