# What would you do



## Bigun (Jun 20, 2006)

My brother and I had an interesting encounter last night with the warden. We sat for squirrel the last hour of the day at some local public land. About 10 minutes before sundown I got the only shot of the day and rolled a grey out of a tree. As we were walking out the warden met us on the trail back to the truck strapped with his rifle. He said he had received two complaints about us. One that we fired a shot near someone walking their dog and scared her them, and that we had been rapid firing shortly after we walked in at the other end of the trail almost a mile away. He proceeded to escort us back to the truck where he detained us for half an hour, patted us down, ran liscenses, etc. only to tell us that the complaint about someone being near while we shot wasn't a complaint at all because we were in a legal area and the person who was scared was almost 100yds away, and the rapid fire complaint came from a witness who stated handguns were used and neither of us had our ccw on us. Now I completely understand he has a duty to investigate the rapid firing of a handgun, and have no problem with the warden checking licenses as I have been stopped several times and never had a problem. My problem with the whole encounter was the direct accusation and belief that we were up to no good and then claiming that something perfectly legal was a valid complaint and justified stopping us. I am considering calling his supervisor to discuss the incident but I am concerned that I will only be setting myself to be harassed in the future.

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## Shed Hunter 365 (Dec 3, 2007)

I'd sleep on it. Then leave it alone.


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

Sounds like Trent??? with him your guilty until proven innocent...any chance this was at Sycamore?

Salmonid


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

2 of you, one of him, a rapid fire complaint... So what he checked you out. He had complaints, you were probably the first he saw. I think he was telling you why he was checking you out instead of harassing you. I wasn't there, but its over, let it go IMO.


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## Bigun (Jun 20, 2006)

Yes salmonid it was, like I said I didn't have a problem with getting checked out, just the accusatory nature of the whole thing. I get he has a job to do ans am happy he does it, but there is a right way to talk to people and a right and wrong way to investigate a potential crime.

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## dodgeboy75 (Feb 20, 2007)

I was their yesterday afternoon walking my Brit/squirrel hunting on Seybold and passed a younger woman with her daughter and 3 house dogs(off leash). I waited to see what side of the creek she was going on and I went the other way. She had to know she was in the public hunting area! I've heard from other hunters out there that the horse clubs are trying to ban hunting in Sycamore.


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## dodgeboy75 (Feb 20, 2007)

I was their yesterday afternoon walking my Brit/squirrel hunting on Seybold and passed a younger woman with her daughter and 3 house dogs(off leash). I waited to see what side of the creek she was going on and I went the other way. She had to know she was in the public hunting area! I've heard from other hunters out there that the horse clubs are trying to ban hunting in Sycamore.



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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Sounds like something I would sleep on for sure.....granted he was doing his job and it may have came off wrong but like stated....two of you and one of him he was being cautious.....

Ive had personal experiences with the guy on my county.....dudes awful and shouldn't be a wildlife officer or even in the division its sad that he is....you'll get no where though if you call his supervisor but maybe an "I'll look into it".....take it with a grain of salt!


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## Bigun (Jun 20, 2006)

Same spot dodgeboy. I have been hunting squirrels in that area for years. Probably the same lady I scared. I guess I don't get people, the other side of Seybold is all no hunting area yet people hike through the hunting area and then complain about legal activities. Guess I am just frusterated with the incident as I do a lot to make sure I am ethical and considerate in my hunting. To the point of finding and picking up the one spent shell from that night. Oh well nothing to do I guess other then keep on hunting.

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## Bwana J (Sep 12, 2010)

If you guys are hunting on Public Hunting Area's check out the link below.

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1501:31-9-01

Check out section "Q", its a regulation that bans any non hunting, fishing or trapping activity's on Public hunting area's during hunting season. The folks walking their dogs there are on the wrong side of the law, it's called Hunter Harassment. Call your local Game Protector and lodge a complaint.


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## dodgeboy75 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bwana J said:


> If you guys are hunting on Public Hunting Area's check out the link below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sycamore is a State Park, not a wildlife area and most people look at the maps and see hiking trails and horseback riding thinking they can walk wherever and whenever. Sycamore is also closed to hunting on Sundays and doesn't allow any caliber rifle for those same reasons. I've been dealing with these incidents for over 25 years. I'm just glad it is still open to hunting.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I'm one county over and your warden has a reputation that extends his county boundry.....I'd still probably just let it go.

I have had encounters at a public hunting area I hunt several times. There are horse trails through the public hunting section and people hike, jog, walk dogs...whatever. Some even veer off on game trails in sections and zig zag, etc.

I thought when I was younger it was just a total lack of common sense (which seems in short supply these days) for these people to put themselves in this position. There is an entire section NOT open to hunting where they could perform these activities without chance of incident.

I soon realized there are 2 types of people out there. I'll start with the majority of them: 

Group #1) oblivious.....they often don't even know it is a hunting zone, don't know where the no hunting zone is located, etc. Yes they drive and walk right past signs - they don't read them. This group often doesn't even know it is hunting season - they don't hunt (hence the oblivious part). These are the people I encounter most often. They don't mean any harm...in fact they don't realize what the heck they are doing or where they are. They are just out to enjoy outdoor activities. I have spoken to a few and showed them maps and told them where to park, etc......they thanked me and headed that direction.

Group #2) What I call "The Jerk". This person knows darn well it is a hunting zone and it is season. They know people are in there, but "it is public land and they have a right to walk their dogs/jog,etc. there when ever they want". For some unknown reason they have an attitude problem (probably with more than just public land.LOL). They are willing to risk their own safety to be "right" and they somewhat enjoy disrupting the activities and pleasure of others.

I've seen a couple #2 guys in my public area also....no doubt purposely routinely causing disruptions. I think this is what the hunter harrassment is meant for. Most of these folks are Group #1 members....just clueless, but not with bad intentions.

That is my public land hunting opinion here in this part of the state.


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

#1,rapid fire of a semi automatic at a squirrel is not illegal
#2,if you attempt to take this any further, they WILL make your life miserable as DOW has more authority than any other law agency and can do a full search of your house any time they want...without warrant
#3, I'd quit hunting there. 
#4,it has been proven there's some bad apples wearing the game warden badge in OH.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

just take it all with a grain of salt. it sounds like the warden did push it to the limit but didn't really cross any lines. but you have to consider all the jerks they have to deal with every day. I would just let it go. at the best someone may tell him he went to far. at the worst they may just get told that you made a complaint and cause you more problems in the future. just keep hunting and stay legal.

I was making a trip to tenn. going towards liberty ky and came up behing a string of cars behind a truck running about 45 to 50 mph and nobody would pass. so every time I got a chance I would pass. when I went through liberty a cop pulled me over and told me someone had called in and reported that I was passing everything on the road. I told them what had happened and I guess I was passing everything on the road. they said I didn't do anything wrong by passing those cars. but then they went on to give me the pin and eye test. they said my eyes jiggled when they took the pin over to the sides and that indicated I was on drugs. then the one cop said a lot of medications would cause the same effect, and I was taking some of those medications. so they finely that I could go but they wanted my wife to drive. if I hadn't done anything wrong and I wasn't on drugs why did they want my wife to drive?? but I didn't push the issue I just traded places with my wife and let her drive the rest of our trip.
sherman


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

bad luck said:


> #1,rapid fire of a semi automatic at a squirrel is not illegal
> #2,if you attempt to take this any further, they WILL make your life miserable as DOW has more authority than any other law agency and can do a full search of your house any time they want...without warrant
> #3, I'd quit hunting there.
> #4,it has been proven there's some bad apples wearing the game warden badge in OH.


I agree.
Rapid fire is illegal??????? I can honestly say Ive never heard or read this anywhere with regards to hunting, especially for tree rats. Can someone please post a link to the orc where this can be found.


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## TomC (Aug 14, 2007)

Rabit fire? Guess they haven't seen him shoot at the bird release's!  Sounds like normal investigative work????????? Let it go Paul, maybe try spring valley or ceasers????????


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## James30 (Apr 13, 2004)

Hey bad luck, odnr has to follow the same rules as set by the constitution of the United States in regards to search and seizure. They cannot search your residence without a search warrant, there is an exception to the search warrant rules in regards to motor vehicles if they have probable cause they can search without a warrant. Also they can do a terry pat down of your person for weapons if they detain you during an investigation and suspect you may have a weapon on you, let's face it this one is easy since you are out hunting and it's reasonable to believe you have a gun and a knife on you. Bottom line is that these guys are doing their jobs and we need to support and cooperate with them. Make their jobs easy and they will quickly move on to the more serious violations, and if your wrong take your medicine like a man.

And there are bad apples in every organization but by far the majority of Law Enforcement are not. They have enormous responsibility and go through an in depth hiring process for this reason. 



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## Jigging Jim (Apr 3, 2010)

James30 said:


> Hey bad luck, odnr has to follow the same rules as set by the constitution of the United States in regards to search and seizure. They cannot search your residence without a search warrant, there is an exception to the search warrant rules in regards to motor vehicles if they have probable cause they can search without a warrant. Also they can do a terry pat down of your person for weapons if they detain you during an investigation and suspect you may have a weapon on you, let's face it this one is easy since you are out hunting and it's reasonable to believe you have a gun and a knife on you. Bottom line is that these guys are doing their jobs and we need to support and cooperate with them. Make their jobs easy and they will quickly move on to the more serious violations, and if your wrong take your medicine like a man.
> 
> And there are bad apples in every organization but by far the majority of Law Enforcement are not. They have enormous responsibility and go through an in depth hiring process for this reason.
> 
> ...


 I believe that Game Wardens are exempt from the Search Warrant issue - because Wild Game is considered Property of the State.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Jigging Jim said:


> I believe that Game Wardens are exempt from the Search Warrant issue - because Wild Game is considered Property of the State.


Not trying to start anything here but there is no exception to the 4th amendment for game wardons. They must meet the same criteria as regular LEO's.

I think where this idea comes from is when police want into a house; they will bypass the need for a warrant by getting a parole officers to go in and they "tag along" for safety reasons. Of course someone in the house do so has to be on parole.


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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

Mr. A said:


> Not trying to start anything here but there is no exception to the 4th amendment for game wardons. They must meet the same criteria as regular LEO's.
> 
> I think where this idea comes from is when police want into a house; they will bypass the need for a warrant by getting a parole officers to go in and they "tag along" for safety reasons. Of course someone in the house do so has to be on parole.


well there are a couple of things that have not been tested by the courts at least not fully imho. Game wardens are the most powerful state law enforcement agency. They have no boundaries, and jurisdiction everywhere. Leo's other than game wardens, are not permitted to require your I.D. Wildlife officers "circumvent" this by the general acceptance that the fact that you are hunting indicates probable cause. They can also come on to your property and question you just because you are conducting a legal activity (hunting). Believe me if i didnt believe in the work that wildlife officers do, i would not be finishing a degree in environmental science with the possible intention of becoming a game warden. There are just some issues though that to me are very borderline. I will tell you i have met and spent time with dozens of wildlife officers at various odnr events and every one ive run into has been a great person. But theres always a chance you get "That guy"


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## OrangeMilk (Oct 13, 2012)

There are a few "That guy" Game Wardens. But for each one of those there are dozens, if not more, "That Guy" hunters. Maybe the warden has a bad attitude becasue he has delt with too many hunters with attitude.

There is a whole lot of stupid out there and those guys have to deal with it on a daily basis.

As for the rapid fire, I was at the Delaware range two summers ago, and hey have a rule that you can not rapid fire there. Nothing over a 3 round burst. They even tell you that when you check in and there are signs.

Maybe it's a thing for hunting too, I don't know never heard of it. But if you have to fire 25 rounds at a squirrel in 4 secs you are doing something wrong anyway.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

jray said:


> well there are a couple of things that have not been tested by the courts at least not fully imho. Game wardens are the most powerful state law enforcement agency. They have no boundaries, and jurisdiction everywhere. Leo's other than game wardens, are not permitted to require your I.D. Wildlife officers "circumvent" this by the general acceptance that the fact that you are hunting indicates probable cause. They can also come on to your property and question you just because you are conducting a legal activity (hunting). Believe me if i didnt believe in the work that wildlife officers do, i would not be finishing a degree in environmental science with the possible intention of becoming a game warden. There are just some issues though that to me are very borderline. I will tell you i have met and spent time with dozens of wildlife officers at various odnr events and every one ive run into has been a great person. But theres always a chance you get "That guy"


Please site the exception for game wardens in the 4th amendment. There is none. They cannot trespass either. If you tell them to kick rocks and get off your property they don't have a choice (assuming you're not doing anything illegal). They have to have cause to access your property, you conducting a legal activity will not meet that threshold. No game warden anywhere can circumvent the law without just cause. Any alleged circumventing isn't by general exception it by general stupidity because it is not legal. I agree people probably pick and choose their battles, but it doesn't make it lawful. 

I'm not even remotely against game wardens. I wish they had more of them and more funding. I am only making the point that reality and public perception are much different in this situation.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

Game wardens can go anywhere that they want, whenever they want. They do not need probable cause. The laws were modified several years ago to allow them full access to private properties as they please. The reasoning was that in order to effectively enforce laws they had to have access to all lands within the state. I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is.


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

Please post ORC Code or Ohio Admin law where this information can be found, thanks in advance.
As we all know the law is up for interpritation and things some people are allowed to do just because of perception can be challanged.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Saugernut said:


> Please post ORC Code or Ohio Admin law where this information can be found, thanks in advance.


Instead of posting another reply, I will wait for that citation as well.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Sounds like he may be a "that guy" officer, or at least was on that day. I know some. They do exist. If it were me, I'd call the supervisor or District Manager to document the case. A small correction from mgmt. can result in entirely different, improved, and refreshed behavior in officers. Just let them know you were a bit disturbed by the accusations. Being irate never helps, but give a cool an collected summary of what happened.


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

Exactly........


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## wittapp (Jan 1, 2013)

It sounds like this warden is a real cowboy. Maybe someone should just forward a link to this thread to the DNR. Just a thought


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## avantifishski (Apr 8, 2012)

Sounds like he was being a cop. Trying to save face after finding out you 2 were legal.He probly gets a lot of stupid complaints and has to check em out. but all these guys are friends and pals so a complaint aint goin past his supervisors desk its "The code"...find a new place to hunt maybe sum guys on here can point ya in the direction of a county where the warden has better ppl skillz......but of course if he succeeds in scaring of alot of hunters and he himself hunts this area it kind of cuts down on his competition i would dare to guess


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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

Mr. A said:


> Instead of posting another reply, I will wait for that citation as well.


well it took me a while but today i have the time so here we go
ORC 1531.13
"Any regularly employed salaried wildlife officer may enter any private lands or waters if the wildlife officer has good cause to believe and does believe that a law is being violated."
"They may inspect any container or package at any time except when within a building and the owner or person in charge of the building objects. The inspection shall be only for bag limits of wild animals taken in open season or for wild animals taken during the closed season, or for any kind or species of those wild animals."
The "good cause" is where it gets sticky. If you are hunting and a GW believes you are in violation of any hunting law (for any reason) he has "good cause" as supported by the courts. Therefore conducting a legal activity is all the legal justification needed to assume you are unlawful, and search your person, your property, as long as it isnt in a building, and any containers you may have about coolers, buckets, etc..
This has not been challenged (correct me if im wrong but i can't find it) and part of the reason is that most do not abuse the law.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

jray said:


> well it took me a while but today i have the time so here we go
> ORC 1531.13
> "Any regularly employed salaried wildlife officer may enter any private lands or waters if the wildlife officer has good cause to believe and does believe that a law is being violated."
> "They may inspect any container or package at any time except when within a building and the owner or person in charge of the building objects. The inspection shall be only for bag limits of wild animals taken in open season or for wild animals taken during the closed season, or for any kind or species of those wild animals."
> ...


Couple things here.

First off, this is in no way remotely close to an exception to your rights under the 4th amendment.

2nd, good cause isn't the gray area you might think it is. And it's "good cause to believe you are in violation of the law." Just like the open carry laws, merely exercising your lawful rights does not, and is not to be construed, as just cause. (I have always said if you were doing something illegal all bets were off.)

And, again, they cannot enter a private building if you do not allow them.....because they need a warrant, where they show a judge just cause, in order to enter without your permission. Heck, most people don't realize that if you initially grant any law enforcement permission to enter, or even search you property, you can change your mind and kick them out after they start. Makes their warrant easier to get then never letting them in initially, but you have the right.

In short, there has never been a line added to the Constitution that says "except game wardens," when discussing who it applies to.


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

Thank you for posting the info. Now I can do my own research and form my own opinion/interp. of the law instead of taking someone's word for it, however I must say I do not agree with a GW simply observing someone in the act of hunting enough good cause to trespass and check said hunter, especially on posted private property. The GW better have the ability and documentation to prove to the court that the hunter in question was in fact engaged in some type of unlawful activity. I am certain I would challenge this inquiry in the court of law.


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## Ring (Dec 7, 2013)

Bwana J said:


> If you guys are hunting on Public Hunting Area's check out the link below.
> 
> http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1501:31-9-01
> 
> Check out section "Q", its a regulation that bans any non hunting, fishing or trapping activity's on Public hunting area's during hunting season. The folks walking their dogs there are on the wrong side of the law, it's called Hunter Harassment. Call your local Game Protector and lodge a complaint.


STATE&#8208;OWNED OR ADMINISTERED LANDS DESIGNATED AS PUBLIC HUNTING AREAS
http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/portals...hunting areas OAC 1501-31-15-04 v1-1-2014.pdf


The following list is state forests administered by the division of forestry:
Beaver Creek**
Blue Rock**
Brush Creek**
Dean**
Fernwood
Gifford**
Harrison
Hocking**
Maumee**
*Mohican Memorial
Perry
Pike**
Richland Furnace
Scioto Trail
Shade River (including West Shade)
Shawnee
Sunfish Creek**
Tar Hollow**
Yellow Creek**
Zaleski (including Waterloo)


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Bwana J said:


> If you guys are hunting on Public Hunting Area's check out the link below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I found this link very informative. Esp. The part(yeah, a bit off topic!), where I could not use a wind powered device on frozen surfaces of any lake under management/control of the DNR!(which I'm guessing is Most of them!). I always thought I'd like to build one and try it on one of our lakes. Of course I'm way too old now to try it but now, seems I couldn't if I wanted to! Basically, what I take from these laws are they are, in many cases, quite vague-and subject to interpretation(the interpretation of the wildlife officer being the important one)! Almost inclined to stay off the public areas all together for fear of crossing some line!


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

I can appreciate all the consternation! Especially about the "that guy" warden. I've been checked quite a few times, and most encounters have been quite affable, but then. One time I was hunting a piece of private property owned by my buddy along with a few of his relatives. This was opening day of deer gun season. Late afternoon I see a helicopter circling, tracking slowly from west to east. I figured they must be looking for someone down, and hurt. Turns out they were the spotters. Next thing I know, here come 2 ODNR guys hiking up the gas well road. they spot me and come to check me out. Well, I was perfectly legal, they were courteous, so everything went without a hitch. Unfortunately they marched off in the direction I might have expected any deer to come in from.

Knowing that the law was around, I made sure I was "super legal" when walking out. Again, the guy I met as soon as I walked out onto the mowed grass at the front of the property was very courteous, but then I ran into "Attila the Hun"! This guy seemed bound and determined to make a "bust" that evening. Unfortunately, the last guy of our party to come out was a guy with one useable arm. He hunted with a pistol, and he came out with his pistol still loaded! Poor bastard! The way the ODNR guys, and Attila the Hun, reacted you'd have thought he was Osama bin Laden! He tried to explain that, only having one arm, he usually brought the gun to his Son's location and had him unload it. Unfortunately, the Son had been "ordered" out of the woods by one of the ODNR guys working that side. He didn't want to lay his pistol down in the slop in order to unload it.

Well, they ran him through the wringer! Confiscated his pistol, ran the serial number and his permit number. Things got a little tense with "Il Duce" strutting around announcing what he was going to do to this guy! Well, when everything checked out and they were giving his pistol back, pretty much full dark, way back in the woods there came a noise, POOM!....POOM! That's when I suggested that they had real problems back in the woods, and we weren't one of them. Attila announced that we were "free to go" and he and his posse headed off into the woods. I hope they caught whoever it was was shooting late,but there was no reason to put us through what they did!


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