# Deer Population



## avrock30 (Oct 11, 2005)

hey guys, just wondering your thoughts on our Ohio deer herd. Over the past 20 years I have gone from seeing a few deer to seeing a lot of deer every time I'm out hunting. Over the past couple of years I believe there has been a decline in our herds of Deer. I have seen less getting hit by cars and while I still see deer every hunt I don't see the quantity I use to. I do better scent control now than I ever had.


I have also talked with a lot of hunters that believe the coyote population is killing the fawns off all summer long to feed their pups. Some also believe that with food plots on adjoining farms that the herd is staying by the food. make sense except for the road kill we use to see.....is insurance companies hands in the pockets of ODNR?

What's all your thoughts on our deer herd?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh good, this discussion again.  What's it been, two week since we had one? 
Yes, the population is down. Whether you like or not, it needed to come down. In a lot of places it was beyond ridiculous.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

M.Magis said:


> In a lot of places it was beyond ridiculous.


like in every metro park across the state.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Over the last 2 days i know I've seen 20 roadkills. That's from over about 7 counties. Tons of deer in the fields yesterday in my travels. There still seems to be alot of deer out there to find.


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

M.Magis said:


> . In a lot of places it was beyond ridiculous.


too bad that was in no hunting areas.




i have seen much less deer in huntable areas as well as less road kills. the state has accomplished there goal of reducing deer in the huntable areas, now what to do with the no hunting areas? keep killing deer in the hunting areas?


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## EYEFISHER2 (May 11, 2008)

the numbers a down for sure! but with that said you CANNOT build roadways right threw the middle of a deers home and expect them not to get ran over I mean come on....I also think a hunter finding deer or a place to hunt is not a problem (getting the permission to do so from a land owner is) there are a heck of a lot of land owners around my neck of the woods that will not allow any hunting or if they do it will just be one person who only gun hunts once a year (but they have someone hunting). even protected areas have huntable land all the way around them at some point, and if it doesn't that's where the state should and does do special hunts to try and control the herd


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## mlayers (Aug 22, 2011)

You just have to hunt the right places. Get out there and get permission close to the city limits where the deers are. Knot on doors and introduce yourself and smile. Me and my boy have gotten permission from lots of property owner and we have gotten 5 deers between us so far. We always get some salami made and take some to the owners. It help out for the next year of hunting and we have even had some help us get permission from others that would not let anyone hunt their land.


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## Angler ss (May 15, 2008)

The state has a tuff job to do. Deer are not dumb they go to areas that don't get pressured. I hunt a few state wildlife areas in my county deer move mostly at night on the state areas do to a lot of pressure. I also have a friend from work who lives across the street from one of the wildlife area who lets me hunt.The private fields around the wildlife area have many deer standing in them each night. I have killed 6 deer over the years at my friends house and only one on the state area.So if your the guy hunting the state land your probably unhappy with deer numbers if you are the guy who can hunt the private areas around the wildlife area your most likely seeing plenty of deer. I also hunt a small conservation club we release 500 pheasants per year the coyotes move in on our club for the feathery feast I have seen 6-8 yearlings this year 60-80 lb deer and they don't seem to be bothered by all the coyote activity. I think the coyotes mostly kill weak or sick deer.


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## Hemingway (Oct 30, 2012)

coyotes plain and simple. every county circling Columbus is loaded with them. two separate spots this year so far have been in a stand and seen 7 coyotes at one and 5 at another.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

mlayers said:


> You just have to hunt the right places. Get out there and get permission close to the city limits where the deers are. Knot on doors and introduce yourself and smile. Me and my boy have gotten permission from lots of property owner and we have gotten 5 deers between us so far. We always get some salami made and take some to the owners. It help out for the next year of hunting and we have even had some help us get permission from others that would not let anyone hunt their land.


That's a good point. Some exurban homeowners, once they find their landscape plantings being eaten to the ground, come to a different opinion of deer. It takes some legwork, but it can pay off big time!



Angler ss said:


> The state has a tuff job to do. Deer are not dumb they go to areas that don't get pressured. I hunt a few state wildlife areas in my county deer move mostly at night on the state areas do to a lot of pressure. I also have a friend from work who lives across the street from one of the wildlife area who lets me hunt.The private fields around the wildlife area have many deer standing in them each night. I have killed 6 deer over the years at my friends house and only one on the state area.So if your the guy hunting the state land your probably unhappy with deer numbers if you are the guy who can hunt the private areas around the wildlife area your most likely seeing plenty of deer. I also hunt a small conservation club we release 500 pheasants per year the coyotes move in on our club for the feathery feast I have seen 6-8 yearlings this year 60-80 lb deer and they don't seem to be bothered by all the coyote activity. I think the coyotes mostly kill weak or sick deer.


I never saw so many deer as in the eastern suburbs of Cleveland. Good Lord, they were everywhere! I think this might be one of the reasons the ODNR went to a county by county harvest limit as opposed to zones. And there are idiotic cities like Solon, who spend taxpayer dollars to bring in "professional" hunters to blow bolts through the heads of deer at night, donate the carcasses to hunger centers, and deny hunting opportunities to those who would gladly pay for the privilege! 



Hemingway said:


> coyotes plain and simple. every county circling Columbus is loaded with them. two separate spots this year so far have been in a stand and seen 7 coyotes at one and 5 at another.


Uhhhhh, it's not quite that plain and simple. The vast majority of 'yotes are lone hunters, who subsist on mice, rats, voles, chipmunks and the like. We have permission to hunt a 90 acre farm behind my friend's house. When the farmer was taking off his soybeans he noticed a large, apparently male, coyote that was shadowing the picker. It was looking for mice and rats being chased out of the field by the harvester. On rare occasions coyotes have been observed engaging in pack hunting, but these instances are very rare. They just don't seem to function like wolves. No doubt they pick off a fawn or two, but they're just generally a pain in the butt in the woods since deer don't like canids of any stripe!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Hemingway said:


> coyotes plain and simple. every county circling Columbus is loaded with them. two separate spots this year so far have been in a stand and seen 7 coyotes at one and 5 at another.


No, not that simple. Coyotes certainly do take some fawns and sick/old deer. But they don't have a large influence.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

M.Magis said:


> No, not that simple. Coyotes certainly do take some fawns and sick/old deer. But they don't have a large influence.


true

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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

there is a general up and down movement of predator and prey in ecosystems. Populations are very rarely stable they go up and down prey high and predators low then visa versa. I believe there will probably be a few down years then it will bounce back. That being said that biological seesaw does not occur evenly over the state and some deer populations are currently on the high end just got to find them.


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

Angler ss said:


> I hunt a few state wildlife areas in my county deer move mostly at night on the state areas do to a lot of pressure. I also have a friend from work who lives across the street from one of the wildlife area who lets me hunt.The private fields around the wildlife area have many deer standing in them each night. I have killed 6 deer over the years at my friends house and only one on the state area.So if your the guy hunting the state land your probably unhappy with deer numbers if you are the guy who can hunt the private areas around the wildlife area your most likely seeing plenty of deer.


you hit the nail on the head. i hunt both private and public. i have about 25 acres that i have food plots, feeders, stands and such that is out my back door. i enjoy hunting there, but there is something about going onto public areas to hunt that i still like. it's easy to go out to a private land with nice cushy stands and food plots to get deer, but i like to go to public lands and hunt deer, because that is hunting, trying to figure out where they are, where they are going, and where should i be. i could tag out every year in my cushy private place by thanksgiving every year if i wanted to, but i like the HUNT on public lands. i could have tagged out already this year, but i haven't shot a thing. looking forward to the gun season that i will be doing on public land.


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## weasel (Mar 25, 2007)

I have land around Cambridge in Guernsey co. and there are a ton of deer there . I think a big problem is hunters kill every thing they see in some areas such as button bucks .which is fine if you are a new hunter or a kid .but you would be surprised by the number of deer you would see if you would let them walk for a few years. I know its a lot different if you hunt public land but you guys on private land if you would try to manage the deer you have you will be surprised what 3 to 4 years will if you only take a few deer on your property. such as does and scrub bucks. but over all the herd is down all over the state. except in the city limits. as far as coyotes were I am at if you hit a deer at night you better find it or the yotes will have it ate up by morning good luck to all!


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

this is just my opinion. but I think the biggest decline in deer populations is just the simple fact of all the antlerless tags being issued to hunters because of so much pressure from the insurance companies. I remember back in 81 when I first started hunting I always saw does and fawns. then there wasn't any extra antlerless permits used on the state property I hunted. then they started allowing them to be used for about 5 yrs and the deer population dropped like a rock. so they closed the property to antlerless permits. the deer are starting to make a comeback in that area. but with yotes killing a few young ones and the private property around this land they still allow 4 antlerless deer in this county.

I live in Indiana but I believe we have the same problems. because of the pressure from insurance companies and other groups they allow so many antlerless permits to keep the herds small. and this is a real problem for hunters that hunt public property. just like franklin county in Indiana I think they allow 8 antlerless permits per hunter because a lot of private property still has to many deer but places like Brookville lake property is over hunted.

I hunted Brookville for a few yrs just because they started allowing antlerless permits and the other property I hunted didn't allow them. but the 1st few yrs I hunted I killed at least 1 doe and seen several more. the last couple of seasons I hunted Brookville I was lucky to even see a deer. then my health got bad where I couldn't do a lot of walking so I just went back to my old property and hunt the muzzleloader season. they still don't allow antlerless permits but the ml season is any age any sex.

so if you really want someone to blame for the drop in deer just look in the mirror. because it is the hunters filling all the antlerless tags that's dropped the deer herd. and I am as guilty as anyone else. when they opened the doe tags on the property I hunted I moved back there to hunt instead of Brookville. and I killed a doe or yearling each yr and usually got another one in ml season.
sherman


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

weasel said:


> I have land around Cambridge in Guernsey co. and there are a ton of deer there . I think a big problem is hunters kill every thing they see in some areas such as button bucks .which is fine if you are a new hunter or a kid .but you would be surprised by the number of deer you would see if you would let them walk for a few years. I know its a lot different if you hunt public land but you guys on private land if you would try to manage the deer you have you will be surprised what 3 to 4 years will if you only take a few deer on your property. such as does and scrub bucks. but over all the herd is down all over the state. except in the city limits. as far as coyotes were I am at if you hit a deer at night you better find it or the yotes will have it ate up by morning good luck to all!


That's a great point. I have a friend who owns 7 acres of land next to a 90 acre farm. My buddy was brought up in the old school, never shoot does, only shoot bucks. Then he wonders why there aren't any big bucks! That's because any buck that lives to be 1.5 years old gets whacked! 

He hasn't shot a doe off that property in 10 years, and there are does and fawns galore! What there seems to be is a shortage of bucks. Occasionally one turns up, but it's hardly an article of faith. I've told him repeatedly that if he wants to see more big bucks he has to let some little ones walk!


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## DancinBear (Apr 21, 2009)

Seems some of u guys don't oh off facts. A lot of studies have been done. And the vast majority of them have show that our friend the coyote is accountable for up to 80 percent of fawn deaths. They smash the hell out of them within days of birth. In areas where u have a lot of them (damn near the whole state at this point) the numbers are on the high end just from a competition standpoint. Coyotes generally don't pick off mature deer but they can. I have seen it. But when they continuously pound the babies it hurts our numbers big time. We have noticed lately from killing a huge amount of the yotes that the numbers are improving. I can speak for all areas but SE ohios numbers are low and the culprit is the yotes. Kill em all 


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## the czar (Aug 14, 2008)

Diddo dancing bear. Killed a doe last weekend and within minutes we werw surrounded by yotes.

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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

who were keeping coyotes in check before humans got involved?

80% of fawns? you need the fact check.

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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

DancinBear said:


> Seems some of u guys don't oh off facts. A lot of studies have been done. And the vast majority of them have show that our friend the coyote is accountable for up to 80 percent of fawn deaths. They smash the hell out of them within days of birth. In areas where u have a lot of them (damn near the whole state at this point) the numbers are on the high end just from a competition standpoint. Coyotes generally don't pick off mature deer but they can. I have seen it. But when they continuously pound the babies it hurts our numbers big time. We have noticed lately from killing a huge amount of the yotes that the numbers are improving. I can speak for all areas but SE ohios numbers are low and the culprit is the yotes. Kill em all
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire



I've read upwards of 40% kill rate on fawns. Do you have a link by chance? I would like to read where the study was done.


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman (May 7, 2007)

Deer herd... She gon'

Drove 300 miles across Ohio last weekend, didn't see one roadkill. 

Thank Tonkovich the terminator


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## icebucketjohn (Dec 22, 2005)

Blue Tongue Disease of 2011 & 2012 did a number on the deer population too.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

....just give it up magis...and have a beer! This thread happens every year. :-D


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

NorthSouthOhioFisherman said:


> Deer herd... She gon'
> 
> Drove 300 miles across Ohio last weekend, didn't see one roadkill.
> 
> *Thank Tonkovich the terminator*


i'll second that.


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## Bulldawg (Dec 3, 2007)

I blame BIGFOOT , the bigfoot in our Ohio woods are just taking over and killing all our deer !!!!!!!!!!


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

9Left said:


> ....just give it up magis...and have a beer! This thread happens every year. :-D


or maybe you could get in bobk's crapper on that nice piece of private land, then post back on how well the state has handled the deer population there.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

If you want to read about fawn mortality studies look at QDMA. They have a lot of research on the matter. It is a fact that coyotes and bobcats have an impact on fawn recruitment. I saw a pair run an 8 pointer for over an hour. They took turns running him while the other one rested. They ran him to the point of total exhaustion.


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

Lets not forget that for the past 3 to 5 years that in some places they were allowing up to 6 and 7 deer to be killed in 1 year. And some people were actually going out and doing that. I am sure that is a big reason for a lot less deer in the state as well...


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

i was off all last week and out this morning and i have only seen 3 doe's in those 8 days. seen numerous bucks but nothing to get excited about yet.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Hunters not coyotes are responsible!
We killed the deer off. The state gave us
The chance and we jumped on the opportunity.

Tonk and the ODNR have not run a hidden agenda...
They made it clear and continue to communicate
They are reducing numbers. They do this with their 
best tool....hunters.

If you study OH coyote population trends you would
see they compliment each other. From 1980 to current
Both populations grew (with ebbs & flows) until both peaked.
Both deer & coyote pops were at an all time high statewide
according to biologists in the early and mid 2000's.

Now that Tonk took over and hunters reduced deer numbers
substantially the harmonious balance of coyote & deer has been
altered. Altered not by the coyote but by man. Coyotes have always
enjoyed the 3-4 week fawn frenzy...just part of the harmony.

You can find population charts on the states websites.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

DancinBear said:


> Seems some of u guys don't oh off facts. A lot of studies have been done. And the vast majority of them have show that our friend the coyote is accountable for up to 80 percent of fawn deaths. They smash the hell out of them within days of birth. In areas where u have a lot of them (damn near the whole state at this point) the numbers are on the high end just from a competition standpoint. Coyotes generally don't pick off mature deer but they can. I have seen it. But when they continuously pound the babies it hurts our numbers big time. We have noticed lately from killing a huge amount of the yotes that the numbers are improving. I can speak for all areas but SE ohios numbers are low and the culprit is the yotes. Kill em all
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Wrong, wrong wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. Coyotes have always been around. However, cheap bonus tags and additional opportunity to hunters were introduced by deer management czar Mike Tonkovich.


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## "chillin" (Apr 20, 2012)

Deer numbers were way up for about 15 years where i live. We used to jump coyotes like rabbits also. It only took about 3 years of a 6 deer limit to wipe them out. I just got permission this year to hunt an area that has tons of deer. This spot is less than 10 miles from where there are hardly any deer...why?? Because the new area i hunt( roughly 500 acres of woods and farmland) hasnt been hunted in a very long time. There are herds of deer! They wander around in groups all day! We were tracking a doe one night after dark and heard three different groups of coyotes howling at each other. The other day i was watching 5 does making their way out of the woods toward a picked bean field. When they got to the edge of the woods a large coyote came trotting down the edge of the field toward them. I expected them to bolt but to my surprise they just stood there. The coyote came to within about 5 yards of them and just stopped, walked around a bit, stared at the deer for a few seconds while they stared back and then went on his way. Im sure coyotes are responsible for killing some fawns but i think the bag limit is the reason deer numbers are down not coyotes. 

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## caseyroo (Jun 26, 2006)

Agree totally that hunters are to blame. Honestly, why does one hunter need 6 deer per year? How much venison can one eat?


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

caseyroo said:


> Agree totally that hunters are to blame. Honestly, why does one hunter need 6 deer per year? How much venison can one eat?


Bingo. Man (and women) kill more deer than everything else combined. Then we get mad when their aren't any deer left!!!

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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I find it a little funny sad when I hear comments about the 6 deer limit leading to the decline in the deer population. There are just no facts to support that statement. The state provides us as hunters bunches of data, there is no reason to speculate that a 6 deer limit has been the cause to a overall herd reduction

So how many hunters statewide do you think kill 6 deer per year, or for that matter 5 deer or 4 deer?

Very small numbers of hunters even shoot 3 deer much less , 4,5 or 6

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Hun...wmanydeerhunterstake/tabid/23949/Default.aspx

This is why I stated my opinion that this years reduction in allowable total deer will have no impact on the overall harvest totals. The hunters weren't killing more than 3 anyway, so reducing from 6 to 3 is nothing more than a slight of hand to appease some hunters.

I made this spreadsheet from past ODNR harvest reports. Can anyone say growth in bowhunters, bowhunters, bowhunters


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

Our fawn recruitment is horrible this year. I have seen very few yearlings. We typically have 1.5 fawns per adult doe. This year we are at about .25 fawns per doe. The coyotes are definately to blame. Lots of big does though. This will have an impact on our buck population down the road. Our buck to doe ratio is 1:2 with more mature bucks than ever. We will not be taking any does off our farm this year. I started a coyote reduction program last week. One down so far, with many more to go.


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## OrangeRay (Jul 16, 2011)

Less deer because of the multiple tags that you couldn't get 20 years ago.
I can take 3 in Miami county this year. About 5 years ago I could only take 1. Deer were over hunted, then they made a comeback and need their population checked. I've seen piebald deer on my property. They exist in areas were deer are overpopulated.
Blast away!! they aren't like Bass, they grow full size in just a few years!


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## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree that coyotes have always been around , but over the last 10 years their population has exploded. And yes, they do take a large number of fawns.


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## OrangeRay (Jul 16, 2011)

Sorry for bad pics. It was a lot darker than it looks in the pictures so the camera had a slow shutter speed. We had a little less deer for the last couple of years but we have a bunch this year. There's one out there now feeding some hawks and crows.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

OrangeRay said:


> Sorry for bad pics. It was a lot darker than it looks in the pictures so the camera had a slow shutter speed. We had a little less deer for the last couple of years but we have a bunch this year. There's one out there now feeding some hawks and crows.


Piebald is a natural occurrence and not indicative of overpopulation or anything like that. The genes just happened to line up in that way. Nice deer


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## fishforfun (Apr 9, 2005)

The biggest reason no deer where I hunt was last years EHD. I have less deer on all my cams bucks and does. But still seeing more then I did in the 80 s . So it will take a few yrs for my area to bounce back. But I do agree the liberal doe tags didn't help. They should go back to one deer tag again and make it either sex. Then you would hear some belly aching...


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

This is why I stated my opinion that this years reduction in allowable total deer will have no impact on the overall harvest totals. The hunters weren't killing more than 3 anyway, so reducing from 6 to 3 is nothing more than a slight of hand to appease some hunters


i would agree, so the question is....where did all the deer go? this coming weekend is the quiet time where bucks and doe are doing their thing. something is wrong, i don't have the answer, but the herd is not good in my opinion. i have seen far more small buck deer over the past few years than doe deer.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Bluewalleye said:


> Lets not forget that for the past 3 to 5 years that in some places they were allowing up to 6 and 7 deer to be killed in 1 year. And some people were actually going out and doing that. I am sure that is a big reason for a lot less deer in the state as well...


Yes, the limits were extremely liberal, especially in the "urban deer zones". Those have now been elimated. Perhaps we are approaching stasis. Who knows? 



Fish-N-Fool said:


> Hunters not coyotes are responsible!
> We killed the deer off. The state gave us
> The chance and we jumped on the opportunity.
> 
> ...





chillin";1731705]Deer numbers were way up for about 15 years where i live. We used to jump coyotes like rabbits also. It only took about 3 years of a 6 deer limit to wipe them out. I just got permission this year to hunt an area that has tons of deer. This spot is less than 10 miles from where there are hardly any deer...why?? Because the new area i hunt( roughly 500 acres of woods and farmland) hasnt been hunted in a very long time. There are herds of deer! They wander around in groups all day! We were tracking a doe one night after dark and heard three different groups of coyotes howling at each other. The other day i was watching 5 does making their way out of the woods toward a picked bean field. When they got to the edge of the woods a large coyote came trotting down the edge of the field toward them. I expected them to bolt but to my surprise they just stood there. The coyote came to within about 5 yards of them and just stopped said:


> Agree totally that hunters are to blame. Honestly, why does one hunter need 6 deer per year? How much venison can one eat?


Well, if you have a family, and you eat nothing but venison, it can take quite a few. I'll never argue with anyone who prefers to eat venison over beef, veal, lamb or pork, although I dearly love them all. Meat may be meat, but venison is special!


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## mlayers (Aug 22, 2011)

Well like I said early in this post. You have to get out and knock on doors smile and introduce yourself. There is deers out there just have to find out where they are. My boy and myself have taken 5 deers so far 4 does and a 10 pt buck. We eat meat at least 4 or 5 times a week times that by 52 weeks we go thur over 200 lbs of meat. Now when we make jerky and salami that is another 50 lbs plus. So make sure we find out where the deers are moving at and we see plenty. We do not take all out of one spot we move to different areas. If you are hinting a area and you take all 5 or 6 deers from that wood yes you will thin them out for a while spot hunting it and they will return. Another thing we eat fish 1 time a week so we fish and make sure we have fish in the freezer. I make sure when Oct rolls around we have around 25 pks of fish to last until spring. You just have to get your food surply when you can.


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