# DEER



## one3

I, did not wright this to start any thing, however i was wondering, and would like to here some thoughts. It seems as though every year the deer kill is less. We have the weather, either good or bad. We, have the hunters them self. What do you suppose the adverage age of a hunter is ? I, was wondering if there were many young hunters comming up to fill the ranks of the older hunters, that do not hunt any more. I, am not sure what to think about , being able to take more than one deer, the numbers are still down. just saying


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## floater99

I blame to liberal bag limits for several years while our herd "needed trimmed " we also don't have young hunters coming up behind us "not going to blame video games" I think the lack of small game and places to hunt single parenting play a big role also, in our camp rite now the youngest guy is close to sixty Ive seen a big decline in numbers of hunters in general the economy family job or and availability


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## Flathead76

floater99 said:


> I blame to liberal bag limits for several years while our herd "needed trimmed " we also don't have young hunters coming up behind us "not going to blame video games" I think the lack of small game and places to hunt single parenting play a big role also, in our camp rite now the youngest guy is close to sixty Ive seen a big decline in numbers of hunters in general the economy family job or and availability


This is one of the best posts ever. Reason why is that most of us started out hunting small game. Hunting has gotten to the point that deer is the only game that matters. With the antler craze places where youth could small game hunt are gone due to deer leases. Hunting these days is going in a bad direction. Unfortunately this trend has been happening for 15 years already.


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## sherman51

I think its a combination of factors. less hunters and with the doe permits and disease we have fewer deer than we had just 10 yrs ago. I hunt pigeon river wildlife area in northern Indiana and they try to keep track of the deer. in 2012 they had a kill that went into the 1000's. the dnr explained to us that in dry seasons they have more die because deer use the same watering hole. if they use one where the fly's have the disease then more deer die. plus you have the cwd killing them now not to mention the coyote problem. so we have fewer hunters and fewer deer.

in Indiana there is no limit on how many does you can kill as long as you kill then up to what is allowed in each county. some counties allow up to 8 does. kill those 8 in that county then just move to another county and start killing that counties quota. this has really thinned the herd in Indiana along with disease. also we have a phone check in. just kill a doe and check it in from any county you want then keep hunting.

I use to see deer almost every time we drove back from hunting. but the last few yrs I haven't seen any deer in the fields on the drive home.
sherman


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## Fishstix

Many good replies here. I agree with many of them. I think there are a ton of factors that go into this. Obviously, disease is one, but many times I feel that is isolated to certain areas throughout the state. When looking at the deer herd as a whole, I believe there are less deer now due to the liberal deer bag limits over the last 10-15 years. The deer herd dwindled, which led to fewer hunters entering the woods because they were not seeing the deer they use to see. Those facts are documented in the ODNR report they release each year. License/permits sold have decreased yearly over this time. Now that the state has reduced the bag limit, I do believe the herd will begin to grow again, problem is I believe it could take 5-10 to really see a difference.


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## squid_1

My observations are similiar to others. I raised all 3 of my boys to hunt. Deer hunting isn't a problem as we have a place to hunt and deer numbers seem to be steady. What bothers me the most is the lack of small game hunting opportunities. Some of my fondest memories of my father were when he took me rabbit hunting. There just aren't the places around Miami county that give permission. Some due to development some for other reasons.


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## Mickey211

I am 36 and have a 5yr son that this year i started to take with me ( just walking or sitting not hunting)....we go small game hunting ( we have 2 beagles)...i only take him for a few hrs i dont want to take him out there all day just yet. Want him to have a good experience until he gets older. I took him this year for second season deer for an afternoon hunt. And wouldnt you know it, it started to rain!...dads fault didnt have rain gear but we got a couple hours in and a few bags of m&ms...ha...the problem i see moving forward is the available land to hunt. My family and i had a nice farm we had permission to hunt that i grew up hunting on. We lost that farm couple years ago and have been hunting public land...this has been challenging past few season...i hate to say it but i see hunting becoming a rich mans hobby or sport. We have been unsuccessful in getting permission on private land...but it only takes 1 landowner to say yes..so we will continue to try!


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## jmyers8

I'll give my point of view from a relatively young age I'm 27 but have literally hunted my whole life and maybe give a younger point if view. Is there a lack of younger hunters honestly I dont think so I live in rural ohio like many of us when I was in school all of us hunted, missed school for gun season and so on. Now I still see young kids and families around me hunting or in stores buying gear or guns.

Here's what has changed growing up we bow hunted some mostly just to get in the woods, we did alot squirrel and rabbit huntin even before gun season and really never even cared about the rut. Every gun season we had a big deer camp we went to with as much land in any direction to hunt with 20 to 30 guys there. That was my christmas and wouldn't sleep before or during gun week taking it all in. We killed alot of deer usually no monsters and that was ok. Then the 1000s of acres got leased some if the older guys died and the big buck craze has taken over. Now instead of guys families getting together to fill freezers you have individual guys sitting by themselves trying to kill a big one and they can't take there kid cause he'll scare them. 

Were spending more time and effort then ever on hunting today but instead of on a broad range if things it's for the almighty big buck. My dad and I just had this conversation during gun week I hope we get our camp back like the hay day on a few years were gonna have quite a few young ones that need the experience I grew up with. Sorry for the long response and hope it makes sense.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Shaun69007

I go with lack of land. In my area the out of stater's lease up property as well as outfitters and pay top dollar. I don't blame the owners of the land I understand the business in it. I wished the people that own the land knew just how much $$ some outfitters make on their property. I am lucky enough to have a few place we hunt and get my 5 year old son out trapping and squirrel hunting but those places I have the owners are getting older so it is just a matter of time. Oh yeah lazy kids and parents that let them slam their faces in electronics don't help either.


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## bobk

http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/portals/wildlife/pdfs/licenses & permits/pub063.pdf
There has been a steady decline in hunters for several years now.


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## slimdaddy45

I know around me there is very few young hunters when I was kid every kid around here hunted mostly small game most of us had beagles and coonhounds but now I know of only 3 coonhunters around and only a couple guys with beagles if I could walk id have me some dogs . I only have 10 acres but it butts up against the WNF that hardly anybody hunts this section and Ive seen more deer around here this than in the past had 3 in my yard this evening and Ive seen a couple of real big bucks close to me in the fields 1/8 mile away and im glad to be seeing more deer here in my area and not a lot of hunters


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## Popspastime

The deer have declined in my area drastically in the last 15 years in the NE. Disease and loss of habitat and food source are the major factors here. Not too awful long ago after dark I would see many deer in the fields at night or crossing roads, but this year haven't seen the first on the road anywhere around here. All the local farms are gone, the oaks are down and homes and commercial properties stand in the woods that held all the deer. Farther south the over kill of deer is slowly making it tuff to even see one on the public ground.


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## crappiedude

There are a lot of good responses on here.
Personally I don't think it's any one factor for the decline but it's an accumulation of many. For the most part it's just a different world now than it was 15-20 years ago and when I grew up in the 50's & 60"s it's like a different universe.
From then until now kids have so much more to do with sports, movies, video games, smart phones ect. I've had non hunting people say they would never hunt because it was just too boring. In real hunting you may only take a shot or maybe 2 in a whole season, maybe not even every year. In a video game you get a shot every few seconds. Much more fast paced and you get to stay warm and dry while you do it.
Lack of private land, lease hunting, overhunted public land, an aging population and limited opportunities for young hunters all are having an effect.
I grew up in the middle of a city and back then guns weren't a big deal. If a kid today were to talk about having a gun...a swat team would probably show up at his house and his parents would be thrown in jail. It's just a different world.
Lot's of folks are aging and retiring. Beside the having physical limitations we also have more opportunities to pursue other interests since we aren't strapped down with a job any longer.
One thing that been a super big turn-off for me lately is the amount of stealing going on out in the woods. Be it camera's, tree stands, ground blinds or what ever it has almost just become no fun.
I don't see a fix to the current decline and only see it getting worse as more and more land gets locked up.
Going forward I don't see how these DNR's around the country are going to be able to operate with less and less funds each year.


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## 9Left

Yeah, so first things first… I don't think the deer were really overharvested… This is pretty much where the state wanted it as far as numbers go. Ohio, and all of its insurance companies, have always wanted low numbers. That's where the "liberal " bag limits came from the past several years. Quite possibly, deer numbers have finally come down to the point where the state thinks it is close to where they wanted.. so we now have this stupid doe rule So the herd does not get totally decimated. I think this will be in effect for the next two maybe three years and then will be back to "normal "

As for small game, I place 100% of the blame on coyotes... they ARE here, they ARE reproducing at rates we cannot keep up with...Hunting them is no where near a sufficient method of control.


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## Redheads

[QUOTE="crappiedude, .
Going forward I don't see how these DNR's around the country are going to be able to operate with less and less funds each year.[/QUOTE]

I think the DNR will be the thing of the past here in the very near future.....The same state employee that is in charge of stocking urinal cakes and toilet paper in the restrooms in the state parks will be the same guy stocking pheasants..I know this is an exaggeration but it wont be too far off.........I hope im wrong


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## Saugeyefisher

9Left said:


> Yeah, so first things first… I don't think the deer were really overharvested… This is pretty much where the state wanted it as far as numbers go. Ohio, and all of its insurance companies, have always wanted low numbers. That's where the "liberal " bag limits came from the past several years. Quite possibly, deer numbers have finally come down to the point where the state thinks it is close to where they wanted.. so we now have this stupid doe rule So the herd does not get totally decimated. I think this will be in effect for the next two maybe three years and then will be back to "normal "
> 
> As for small game, I place 100% of the blame on coyotes... they ARE here, they ARE reproducing at rates we cannot keep up with...Hunting them is no where near a sufficient method of control.


Coyotes and STRAY CATS!!!!! I've seen stray cats wipe out rabbit populations.....


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## Harry1959

Hunters are an aging population. As this article points out. Nationally went from 18 million in 1980 to 10 million in 2016. Also says we lost 2 million hunters from 2012 through 2016. The average Ohio hunter is somewhere around 60 years old(jerry crisp outdoors on the radio). He may have said 60 or 65, but it’s pretty old.
https://www.outdoornews.com/2017/09/21/hunter-participation-numbers-continue-drop-sorry-situation/
Also loss of habitat,including loss of long term clearcutting has in my opinion played a big role too(also helped devastate grouse population). 20 years ago I had permission to hunt 2 100 acre farms plus a 20 acre lot. 1 of the farms is all houses now and the 20 acres was sold last year and is currently being developed. It also makes me really sad to drive through some of our state forest and see mile after mile of mature hardwoods. The wildlife needs the clear cutting. Thankfully, some areas have resumed clear cutting on a large scale over the last 10-15 years.
So we have less good habitat, fewer hunters and an out of control coyote population.


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## $diesel$

I believe our lack of recruitment in young hunters starts in the schools. Population numbers don't have much effect on our young'ns as they can't wait to go out with dad.
But these politically correct folks around these days want everything they're way or the highway.
A lot of todays teachers are pretty bad left-wingers that teach against hunting and handling firearms for any reason. Most young kids want to do as their friends do and with these teachers and parents who have grown up this anti-gun way, it effects even the youngsters that want to be like dad.
Just my opinion.


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## fastwater

Some very good ideas have been stated on this thread.
Though I believe the deer population has significantly decreased due to various reasons, I'm with 9left all the way in the fact that it's decreased mostly due to what most of us see as crazy, excessive bag limits over the years. I say 'most of us see as crazy,excessive bag limits' cause ODNR have never denied or tried to hide that setting these excessive bag limits was for the soul purpose to reduce herd numbers. In fact, ODNR has stated flat out many times over throughout the years that that was their intent/goal when setting the high bag limits.
The info ODNR has put out over the years to the public I have always questioned is the average number of deer taken per Hunter per year. Also, as I've complained about for several years, ODNR including the thousands of deer in parks,suburbs and other non hunting areas in the state into the equation for total state/county deer numbers and then setting the bag limits on that total, again including these non huntable deer has been just wrong. Including these non huntable deer and the accidents they cause obviously increases the bag limits in that county and those bag limits are taken from the public/private huntable areas. And with the volume of hunters that's hunting public land, it would seem obvious that the biggest pressured areas would be, without a doubt public hunting areas.


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## Redheads

Don't forget about all of the deer damage permits given out to farmers who can kill deer 24/7/365 however they like. I have gone to countless meetings and complained about it to no avail.

I have always said if a farmer doesn't allow hunting he does not have a deer problem so no deer damage permits should be issued.


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## buckeyebowman

fastwater said:


> Some very good ideas have been stated on this thread.
> Though I believe the deer population has significantly decreased due to various reasons, I'm with 9left all the way in the fact that it's decreased mostly due to what most of us see as crazy, excessive bag limits over the years. I say 'most of us see as crazy,excessive bag limits' cause ODNR have never denied or tried to hide that setting these excessive bag limits was for the soul purpose to reduce herd numbers. In fact, ODNR has stated flat out many times over throughout the years that that was their intent/goal when setting the high bag limits.
> The info ODNR has put out over the years to the public I have always questioned is the average number of deer taken per Hunter per year. Also, as I've complained about for several years, ODNR including the thousands of deer in parks,suburbs and other non hunting areas in the state into the equation for total state/county deer numbers and then setting the bag limits on that total, again including these non huntable deer has been just wrong. Including these non huntable deer and the accidents they cause obviously increases the bag limits in that county and those bag limits are taken from the public/private huntable areas. And with the volume of hunters that's hunting public land, it would seem obvious that the biggest pressured areas would be, without a doubt public hunting areas.


This is a great point! After the big northeast blackout some years ago the tree company that a buddy of mine worked for was hired by the electric company to clear power line rights of way in the Cleveland area. He hunts, and told us he's never seen deer like he saw around Cleveland. Mind boggling huge bucks! And incredible numbers. Of course, they can't be hunted. I used to run sales routes in the far eastern suburbs, and there was one area where I'd see deer literally in every other yard! 

I started going to my BIL's cabin in SE Ohio a few years before the "crazy" bag limits went into effect. There was a stretch of I-77 with so many dead deer along it that it was just obscene! Obviously some control of the deer herd was necessary. Consider that every carcass along the road means damaged property, an insurance claim, and maybe an injured or dead person.


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## fastwater

Redheads said:


> Don't forget about all of the deer damage permits given out to farmers who can kill deer 24/7/365 however they like. I have gone to countless meetings and complained about it to no avail.
> 
> I have always said if a farmer doesn't allow hunting he does not have a deer problem so no deer damage permits should be issued.


I don't have the data on the number of damage permits that are issued to farmers each year...nor do I have the data of how many of those permits are actually filled. But I'd surely like to have it.

As far as a farmer being forced to allow hunting on his property, I have to respectfully strongly disagree with you. That property is his. He's either paid for it or is in the process. And pays a whole bunch of property taxes to boot. He makes his living off the crops he's paid dearly to get in the ground.
The deer belong to the state. States property is destroying private citizens/farmers property/livelihood.
Solution='s either let farmers damages be assessed and the proper deer crop damage permits issued...or assess the damages,issue no permits and have the state pay $ for damages their property destroyed.
FWIW, those $'s, if paid to him, are your and my tax $'s.


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## UNCLEMIKE

fastwater said:


> I don't have the data on the number of damage permits that are issued to farmers each year...nor do I have the data of how many of those permits are actually filled. But I'd surely like to have it.
> 
> As far as a farmer being forced to allow hunting on his property, I have to respectfully strongly disagree with you. That property is his. He's either paid for it or is in the process. And pays a whole bunch of property taxes to boot. He makes his living off the crops he's paid dearly to get in the ground.
> The deer belong to the state. States property is destroying private citizens/farmers property/livelihood.
> Solution='s either let farmers damages be assessed and the proper deer crop damage permits issued...or assess the damages,issue no permits and have the state pay $ for damages their property destroyed.
> FWIW, those $'s, if paid to him, are your and my tax $'s.


Good point but the state did not pay my deductible for repairs to my vehicle the two times I hit one of the states deer that ran into the road.


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## Redheads

fastwater said:


> I don't have the data on the number of damage permits that are issued to farmers each year...nor do I have the data of how many of those permits are actually filled. But I'd surely like to have it.
> 
> As far as a farmer being forced to allow hunting on his property, I have to respectfully strongly disagree with you. That property is his. He's either paid for it or is in the process. And pays a whole bunch of property taxes to boot. He makes his living off the crops he's paid dearly to get in the ground.
> The deer belong to the state. States property is destroying private citizens/farmers property/livelihood.
> Solution='s either let farmers damages be assessed and the proper deer crop damage permits issued...or assess the damages,issue no permits and have the state pay $ for damages their property destroyed.
> FWIW, those $'s, if paid to him, are your and my tax $'s.


That's the great thing about America we can share our opinions....I understand your point and somewhat agree but there are a lot of us sportsmen that are still very respectful. Using the term "forced" makes me feel unworthy or incapable to help. I have met many great landowners and made friendships over the years by being more than just someone hunting his/her land. When given permission the landowner gets much more out of their decision to let me on their property than they ever imagined.


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## bobk

Redheads said:


> That's the great thing about America we can share our opinions....I understand your point and somewhat agree but there are a lot of us sportsmen that are still very respectful. Using the term "forced" makes me feel unworthy or incapable to help. I have met many great landowners and made friendships over the years by being more than just someone hunting his/her land. When given permission the landowner gets much more out of their decision to let me on their property than they ever imagined.


Redheads, as a landowner I’m curious what all you do for the landowner for them giving you permission to hunt. I’ve struggled with both sides of letting people hunt my property. I’m just curious what you do for them. I’ve had people that didn’t do squat and only come when it’s deer season and I’ve had those that are willing to help me out for the right to hunt my place. Those that don’t pitch in have been slowly asked to not come back. It’s a decision that I’ve struggled with but it’s too much for me to do by myself. 

Harry made good points on clear cuts helping the wildlife as well. I’ve clear cut a couple areas over the years and it helps for sure. Hard to hunt it but it sure holds the deer.


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## Muddy

UNCLEMIKE said:


> Good point but the state did not pay my deductible for repairs to my vehicle the two times I hit one of the states deer that ran into the road.


It’s funny how that works, isn’t it. The state owns and controls the deer herd until you hit one with a vehicle. It’s a double standard.


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## Redheads

bobk said:


> Redheads, as a landowner I’m curious what all you do for the landowner for them giving you permission to hunt. I’ve struggled with both sides of letting people hunt my property. I’m just curious what you do for them. I’ve had people that didn’t do squat and only come when it’s deer season and I’ve had those that are willing to help me out for the right to hunt my place. Those that don’t pitch in have been slowly asked to not come back. It’s a decision that I’ve struggled with but it’s too much for me to do by myself.
> 
> Harry made good points on clear cuts helping the wildlife as well. I’ve clear cut a couple areas over the years and it helps for sure. Hard to hunt it but it sure holds the deer.


bobk
I have done and helped with everything from castrating pigs one morning to taking kids to school. I have made the drive many of mornings to find a landowner in need of a hand and elected to help instead of hunt. My help isn't limited to during the season but all year making trips to mend fences to work on equipment etc.. For special occasions, all landowners receive something from me and my family. My relationship with the landowners has always been about them first hunting second. With that being said most of the older generation landowners are now gone and im trying to make the same connection with the younger generation which seems to be a little tougher....so if your a younger generation landowner any help identifying needs would surely help me.
Thanks


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## fastwater

UNCLEMIKE said:


> Good point but the state did not pay my deductible for repairs to my vehicle the two times I hit one of the states deer that ran into the road.


Good point and You're right. Your example of auto/deer accidents is the number one factor used in the equation when establishing deer bag limits.
They set crazy excessive bags limits, sell us crazy amounts of hunting permits and...presto...we have threads like this about the lack of deer. Especially on public land.
But let's just say they did pay your deductible...or even give you a free deer permit for your damages helping you out like they do farmers by issueing them crop damage permits. Would it then be alright for you to be forced to let anyone that needs a ride to use your car?

They won't pay for sheep, calves,chickens etc their coyote kill either.
Or hospital bills when some unfortunate person gets attacked by one of their bears, bit by one of their snakes,gators etc.


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## Popspastime

Deer hunting is something that is.. er.. was.. very close to my heart, I lived it. When the limits got liberal I knew it was the end of the end, all the state cares about is $$$ for the license, nothing more. You could talk till your blue in the face but I've seen it.. 6 deer.. common, who needs 6 deer? Ever seen the woods out east?, how there hunted? I'll leave that alone for now. Private land is just that "PRIVATE" and many a hunter has ruined that for the rest. I leased 360 acres of land for a long time and took 4 years of kayos before they figured it out. That alone shut down private land for many. Next was the outdoor shows on TV showing the canned hunts, next thing you know outfitters were leasing thousands of acres south for profit. That put the kabosh to normally open permissioned land on the burner as well. Now put all those lost hunters on public land with liberal permits and what do you have? Up north how many cities have closed hunting (almost all) and kill permits (happy shoots) granted because the deer were eating the shrubs.. do you think they want to eat shrubs??? They shoot them in the parks up here. Do you really think that after a few nights shooting the deer might move out of the parks to someones back yard and start eating shrubs again..?? It's terrible how it's evolved in my last 60 years, the changes and land devastation thats taken place. The deer have payed the price for the greed of others.


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## fastwater

^^^Well spoken Pops!


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## Lundy

fastwater said:


> I don't have the data on the number of damage permits that are issued to farmers each year...nor do I have the data of how many of those permits are actually filled. But I'd surely like to have it.
> .


Here is some of the data


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## Muddy

I tried to find the damage control numbers for the last couple years, but can’t find it. Anyone know those numbers?


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> Here is some of the data
> 
> View attachment 286705


Lundy, Thanks for posting that data.
These figures up to 2014 being statewide, coupled with the thousands of acres of private farmland in the state, I would have guessed the number of damage permits/kills would have been much, much higher.
IMO, according to these stats, damage permits is really a non issue when it comes to our depleted deer herd. And is yet more obvious factual info/evidence suggesting who the real, main culprit(insurance company's)is on complaining there are too many deer in our statewide herd.


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## Lundy

No matter who is complaining about population levels being too high or what criteria the ODNR used to establish reduced population targets and plans to achieve stated goals the data clearly supports that the only real culprit in ACTUAL population reduction is hunters themselves. The ODNR nor any insurance agencies killed any deer, are going to kill any deer, will ever kill any deer. If hunters quit shooting deer tomorrow there is nothing the ODNR could do to stop a huge population explosion over the next few years no matter how many coyotes we have.

If you do the math, 400,000 to start, 1/2 male, half female, each female averages 1.5 babies a year, also 1/2 male, 1/2 female you end up with over 1.2 million deer in just 2 years.


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## crappiedude

bobk said:


> I’m curious what all you do for the landowner for them giving you permission to hunt. I’ve struggled with both sides of letting people hunt my property.


Like Redheads I've done most of the stuff on his list.
I drove by one of the land owners who was putting up hay one hot miserable day so I stopped and gave him a hand. When I was younger I hung tobacco and bush hogged fields. I routinely will walk the field edges, on the sections we hunt before harvest and if I see where any of the many dead ash trees have fallen into the fields I'll try to bring a chain saw back and remove them or if they're too big I'll notify him of the problem so he can take care of it and not mess up any equipment. I always check when I see a truck parked in his fields...one guy just hates that and usually the guy doesn't belong there. I'll run down escaped live stock and advise the owners of the problem with the fence only if I can't resolve the issue myself. Most of the time I just fix the stuff. I never tell them, I just do it.
One guy needed a ladder and a few special gates in his barn, at the time I did steel work so I custom made them. When he asked how much he owed me, I told him nothing. The hunting more than covered the cost. One of the farmers wife's once asked me if I wanted exclusive hunting rights to their land because I took a few days and painted there porch and I said no. They had way too much land for just our small group. Mind ya this is just a small part of a lifetime of hunting.
Just this year on the last Saturday of gun week my friend walked out to a shed at the farm we keep our quad. It was early and before daylight and he was heading to his stand. I was walking to my stand in a different direction so I was lagging behind him. I heard the quad start then he took off and the quad quit. I walked back over to him to see if he had a problem. With all the rain we've had and all of the cattle every thing was just a muddy mess. My friend was talking about pulling something out of the mud and I finally asked what he was talking about and he pointed his light to the ground and here was this little bity calf stuck in the mud up to it's chest. We got it pulled out and moved about 30 yards away. It was still muddy and nothing was dry anywhere near us so we left to go hunting and hoped for the best. I kept thinking about that calf and after a few hours I couldn't stand it, I walked back and it still there just stuck in a different place. I'm trying to figure out how to move him by myself and I hear the quad coming. My friend couldn't stand it either. We realized we could do no more so we called the owner's son who came out and gave it a shot of vitamin B1 maybe. Anyway he told us it was a newborn and we loaded it on the quad and took it to a dryer spot. When we left is was standing with momma. Before we got this little thing on it's feet those darn buzzards were starting to circle overhead. I'm pretty sure we ruined their lunch.
I feel we're the extra set of hands they need or that extra set of eyes they need keeping a lookout on their property.
Unfortunately not all hunters are responsible, not all relationships are good and not all experiences will be positive.... but some will be.


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> No matter who is complaining about population levels being too high or what criteria the ODNR used to establish reduced population targets and plan to achieve stated goals the data clearly supports that the only real culprit in ACTUAL population reduction is hunters themselves. The ODNR nor any insurance agencies killed any deer, are going to kill any deer, will ever kill any deer. If hunters quit shoot deer tomorrow there is nothing the ODNR could do to stop a huge population explosion over the next few years no matter how many coyotes we have.
> 
> If you do the math, 400,000 to start, 1/2 male, half female, each female averages 1.5 babies a year, also 1/2 male, 1/2 female you end up with over 1.2 million deer in just 2 years.


You got it!
And all the while ODNR has in no way ever tried to hide the fact that their goal was to drastically reduce deer numbers. And it's worked!
They set the crazy bag limits as if deer multiply like rabbits, we go and shoot all we can.
Then when the numbers run low in our area, we want to start playing the blame game. IMO, coyote, poaching even disease does its share to hurt the population...but I don't think there's anything that depletes the numbers any more,any faster than us hunters doing exactly what ODNR intended for us to do...over harvesting.


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## Muddy

The reported numbers for nuisance permit kills is not accurate. Many nuisance permit holders just gut shoot deer and let them run off to die. Some may follow proper paperwork protocol, but many don’t. It was enough to turn me off from the entire program. Deer have caused me direct monetary loss, but I’d be damned if I would ever shoot a deer just to kill it.


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## buckeyebowman

fastwater said:


> You got it!
> And all the while ODNR has in no way ever tried to hide the fact that their goal was to drastically reduce deer numbers. And it's worked!
> They set the crazy bag limits as if deer multiply like rabbits, we go and shoot all we can.
> Then when the numbers run low in our area, we want to start playing the blame game. IMO, coyote, poaching even disease does its share to hurt the population...but I don't think there's anything that depletes the numbers any more,any faster than us hunters doing exactly what ODNR intended for us to do...over harvesting.


Couldn't have said it better myself! I can remember a thread, years ago, where people were complaining about an ODNR spokesman referring to deer hunters as tools they use to manage the deer herd. Well, when it came to reducing the population, we were "tools" indeed! Some guys went out and whacked every deer, especially does, that they could! Fill those freezers boys! 

What those guys didn't reckon on was that the fastest way to reduce the population was to shoot does. Every doe shot reduces the future population by about 8 deer, considering the fawns she would be expected to drop during her prime breeding years. One buck can breed quite a few does, but it doesn't work the other way around. 

There's an author I like, John Gierach, a fly fisher and hunter from Colorado. He wrote about a particular stretch of stream that connected two highland reservoirs that was populated with huge, pig, rainbow trout! Obviously, the fly fishermen loved this area. 

For whatever reason, the Colorado Dept of Fish wanted the population thinned out a bit, and began selling a limited number of "trophy" permits that would allow you to keep one of these huge trout. A number of fly fishers bought these permits with absolutely no intention of using them! He thought this was deliciously subversive, but also guessed that the DOF guys would look at the harvest data and figure that into their future permit allocation.

Apparently, Colorado fishermen are smarter than Ohio deer hunters! Yes, buy an antlerless tag, and maybe take ONE doe where you hunt. Then hunt for your buck. That won't flatten the herd! My BIL does that. He'll take one doe apiece from the two areas he has to hunt, and there are plenty of deer still around! 

Self restraint is the best deer management tool we have.


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## fastwater

Spot on BBM.


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## one3

fastwater said:


> I don't have the data on the number of damage permits that are issued to farmers each year...nor do I have the data of how many of those permits are actually filled. But I'd surely like to have it.
> 
> As far as a farmer being forced to allow hunting on his property, I have to respectfully strongly disagree with you. That property is his. He's either paid for it or is in the process. And pays a whole bunch of property taxes to boot. He makes his living off the crops he's paid dearly to get in the ground.
> The deer belong to the state. States property is destroying private citizens/farmers property/livelihood.
> Solution='s either let farmers damages be assessed and the proper deer crop damage permits issued...or assess the damages,issue no permits and have the state pay $ for damages their property destroyed.
> FWIW, those $'s, if paid to him, are your and my tax $'s.


Most every one blame deer for the corn crop damage, I, have to belive the racoon do a lot of corn damage. Maybe even more than the deer.


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## bobk

Redheads and crappiedude, you guys are sure more than helpful to the landowners that have given you permission to hunt. Nice to read both replies. Way to pitch in!! 

A couple years ago 2 young guys came to the house wanting to hunt my place. Season had already started. I told them I’d be more than happy to let them hunt next year since it was already bowseason. I gave them my number and told them to give me a call in January and we could work something out if they were willing to give me little help on the land. Of course I never heard from them. 

The first land I was ever privileged to hunt on as a kid was on a pig farm. I worked more hours on the farm than I ever spent in a tree. I shot my first bow buck on that land. It was all worth the work I did to have that experience. 

I think a lot of people just aren’t willing to help out but are more than willing to complain about landowners being pricks for not letting people hunt their land.


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## bobk

How many hunters here would be willing to just take 1 deer next year for the sake of the herd?


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## one3

ME, I do it every year. 1 Deer.


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## Burkcarp1

bobk said:


> How many hunters here would be willing to just take 1 deer next year for the sake of the herd?


I refuse to shoot a doe. I only hunt for a buck and I eat tag soup a lot. I’m not saying nobody shouldn’t shoot a doe. I just don’t have any interest in doing so.


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## fastwater

one3 said:


> Most every one blame deer for the corn crop damage, I, have to belive the racoon do a lot of corn damage. Maybe even more than the deer.


Make no mistake about it, farmers are well aware of the crop damage ***** cause.



bobk said:


> How many hunters here would be willing to just take 1 deer next year for the sake of the herd?


Am more than willing. 
Hunted public land (Wayne Nat.) everyday of the week long shotgun season with the exception of Sat during the downpours. Could have taken at least 4 different deer. Small buck, small doe and two other decent does. Just passed on them. Didn't even go out the two day shotgun. 
Have reserved my deer harvest for ML in which I'll be hunting a fella's property that wants does taken. Most likely ill put something in the freezer..if not, I'll not loose any sleep over it.


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## Popspastime

Me.. Bow to hunt a good buck only.. I feed the deer all year to help them out, and don't kill does or hunt on the feed. I've had the same family of does for 5 years and killed one of the bucks they had..


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## jmyers8

I **** hunt alot prolly 3 to 4 nights a week year round.. I have a few farmers that get top dollar for deer leases. They let me **** hunt and the guys leasing knows if they have a problem with me **** huntin they will lose there lease. ***** will mow down a corn field like a herd of deer never could. I've seen 10 to 15 ***** run out of a corn field with alot more sitting up around it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Redheads

bobk said:


> Redheads and crappiedude, you guys are sure more than helpful to the landowners that have given you permission to hunt. Nice to read both replies. Way to pitch in!!
> 
> A couple years ago 2 young guys came to the house wanting to hunt my place. Season had already started. I told them I’d be more than happy to let them hunt next year since it was already bowseason. I gave them my number and told them to give me a call in January and we could work something out if they were willing to give me little help on the land. Of course I never heard from them.
> 
> The first land I was ever privileged to hunt on as a kid was on a pig farm. I worked more hours on the farm than I ever spent in a tree. I shot my first bow buck on that land. It was all worth the work I did to have that experience.
> 
> I think a lot of people just aren’t willing to help out but are more than willing to complain about landowners being pricks for not letting people hunt their land.


Unfortunately, i have seen my share of slob hunters and how they respect the land so i can see where a landowner is reluctant to let someone on their property. I have been told countless times that they would like to give permission but have had too many bad experiences and just dont want to have any more......I can understand their frustrations and always respectfully understand their decision. 

Not only doing the work but doing it as the landowner requested....I have done many of tasks which i thought wasn't the most efficient way or the best way but i did it as asked by the landowner. Listening is the beginning of the landowner gaining your trust and respect.

bobk any time you need a hand or assistance send the PM ill be more than happy to lend a hand


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## Shad Rap

bobk said:


> How many hunters here would be willing to just take 1 deer next year for the sake of the herd?


One deer for me...and most years, no deer for me.


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## crappiedude

My self and my friend kill 2 or 3 deer per year between us and have done so for probably the last 25 years of so. We never did buy into killing all the does BS. This year we've only taken 1 deer so far but we still have ML season in a few weeks. If cutting back to just 1 deer each would help the herd, I'd cut back.

bobk… I agree with your approach to allowing people to hunt. I've always said if it were in my power to let someone hunt I would do it. Like you I would want to have a little chit chat before the hunting began just to clear the air. Hunting private property is a privilege and it's a 2 way street.


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## Seaturd

I haven't shot a deer since 2011. I quit hunting does and hold out for a mature buck. The deer population on the privately owned 50 acres in Tusc. Cty has been decimated. The surrounding properties don't appear to have many deer remaining either (no sightings in fields at dawn and dusk). The landowner blames Amish poaching and if its brown its down hunting practices. I hunted 5.5 days of gun season this year and saw exactly zero deer. Less than the previous years low of a spike buck and a solitary doe. This all started with the liberal bag limits.


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## Molson

Shaun69007 said:


> I go with lack of land. In my area the out of stater's lease up property as well as outfitters and pay top dollar. I don't blame the owners of the land I understand the business in it. I wished the people that own the land knew just how much $$ some outfitters make on their property. I am lucky enough to have a few place we hunt and get my 5 year old son out trapping and squirrel hunting but those places I have the owners are getting older so it is just a matter of time. Oh yeah lazy kids and parents that let them slam their faces in electronics don't help either.


Do you really think that the Farmers don’t know what The Outfitters are Making? Really.. It takes 5 seconds to look up the rates.. I’m guessing the Farmers are tired of Freeloaders Hunting their Property and not giving anything back.. Atleast with leasing they know exactly who is on their property..


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## Muddy

The deer herd is down from the glory days, but there are still plenty of deer around. I hunt in Union, Muskingum, Hocking, and Pickaway Counties throughout the seasons. I have hunted the same places for years, and we harvest multiple does from each property every year. I hunted somewhere around 30 times this year. Sometimes for a couple hours, and sometimes from dawn to dusk. I saw deer every day that I hunted. I had opportunities to shoot deer within 30 yards on most of my bow hunts. I hunted six days with a gun across all four counties and had shots at multiple deer every day. I don’t see the sky falling.


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## ErieIslander

Flathead76 said:


> This is one of the best posts ever. Reason why is that most of us started out hunting small game. Hunting has gotten to the point that deer is the only game that matters. With the antler craze places where youth could small game hunt are gone due to deer leases. Hunting these days is going in a bad direction. Unfortunately this trend has been happening for 15 years already.


Deer leases and TV inspired antler craze has a big impact. I also think the current deer check in system promotes illegal practices.


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## Molson

ErieIslander said:


> Deer leases and TV inspired antler craze has a big impact. I also think the current deer check in system promotes illegal practices.


Everyone has the option to Buy or Lease their own Hunting Property.. That’s what makes this Country Great.. Choices..

The Properties we hunted were overrun with Slobs so we decided to Lease Farms for Whitetail. Problem Solved..


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## Harry1959

I don’t eat it as much as I used too. I pretty much just trophy hunt which to means I don’t shoot at a deer most years. I may shoot a doe with ML as I’ve not had a deer to eat for a couple years. 
xzz


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## Muddy

Yep, choices are good. I own, lease, and have written permission on different properties. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.


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## Muddy

bobk said:


> Redheads and crappiedude, you guys are sure more than helpful to the landowners that have given you permission to hunt. Nice to read both replies. Way to pitch in!!
> 
> A couple years ago 2 young guys came to the house wanting to hunt my place. Season had already started. I told them I’d be more than happy to let them hunt next year since it was already bowseason. I gave them my number and told them to give me a call in January and we could work something out if they were willing to give me little help on the land. Of course I never heard from them.
> 
> The first land I was ever privileged to hunt on as a kid was on a pig farm. I worked more hours on the farm than I ever spent in a tree. I shot my first bow buck on that land. It was all worth the work I did to have that experience.
> 
> I think a lot of people just aren’t willing to help out but are more than willing to complain about landowners being pricks for not letting people hunt their land.


I have a farm that I hunt that I’ve probably spent around 800-1000 hours working at in 16 years. I just framed a cabin in for the owner this summer. I have another farm that I clear the trails once a year for them. I have several other farms that I always offer a hand, but they seldom take me up on it. I painted a guys soffit/fascia down the road from me one summer for permission to hunt his farm. He was old and I found him on the floor immobile and incoherent one day when I stopped by to chat. I had to call the ambulance, he passed away shortly after I found him.


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## Molson

Correct. We leased a New Farm this past year. The Farmer is in his 70’s and couldn’t be a nicer guy. Gave permission to 2 people to hunt his 220 acres. Before too long 6-8 people were hunting it.. so he had enough.. and I’m will to Bet that the Majority Of people leasing Have More respect and do more for the Land and Owners, than the Locals that have hunted for years.. we pay a good price for the lease, yet still help with anything we can when we are there..


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## Muddy

Molson said:


> Correct. We leased a New Farm this past year. The Farmer is in his 70’s and couldn’t be a nicer guy. Gave permission to 2 people to hunt his 220 acres. Before too long 6-8 people were hunting it.. so he had enough.. and I’m will to Bet that the Majority Of people leasing Have More respect and do more for the Land and Owners, than the Locals that have hunted for years.. we pay a good price for the lease, yet still help with anything we can when we are there..


My situation is similar. The property that we lease is pretty large. It used to be an over run free for all. The farm owner got tired of letting people hunt and then getting taken advantage of. The farmer wanted to have established rules that were followed. A contract was drawn up and signed by all parties. If you break the terms of the lease, you are gone. If you abide by the simple rules you are good to go.


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## buckeyebowman

ErieIslander said:


> Deer leases and TV inspired antler craze has a big impact. I also think the current deer check in system promotes illegal practices.


Just stop and think about what you just posted! If everybody was out there looking for massive bone, the woods would be full of does and smaller bucks!


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## Morrowtucky Mike

9Left said:


> Yeah, so first things first… I don't think the deer were really overharvested… This is pretty much where the state wanted it as far as numbers go. Ohio, and all of its insurance companies, have always wanted low numbers. That's where the "liberal " bag limits came from the past several years. Quite possibly, deer numbers have finally come down to the point where the state thinks it is close to where they wanted.. so we now have this stupid doe rule So the herd does not get totally decimated. I think this will be in effect for the next two maybe three years and then will be back to "normal "
> 
> As for small game, I place 100% of the blame on coyotes... they ARE here, they ARE reproducing at rates we cannot keep up with...Hunting them is no where near a sufficient method of control.


You don’t think cats, possums, skunks, mink, fox, decline of habitat, federally protected red hawks or 1000 ‘s of other things have to do with the decline of rabbits? 100% coyotes? Can’t be talking about squirrels cuz they are everywhere since nobody hunts them anymore and the quail and pheasant populations have been gone since the blizzard of ‘78.


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## Molson

buckeyebowman said:


> Just stop and think about what you just posted! If everybody was out there looking for massive bone, the woods would be full of does and smaller bucks!


Lmao.. Some people are Just Blind, Deaf and Dumb when is comes to Leasing.. They are just Upset that their Freeloading Days are Over.. Jealousy


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## Morrowtucky Mike

buckeyebowman said:


> Just stop and think about what you just posted! If everybody was out there looking for massive bone, the woods would be full of does and smaller bucks!


If everyone is only hunting massive antlers the little guys would all be allowed to grow into large bucks. We hunt several thousand acres in my area and around 2000 we decided we weren’t gonna kill bucks unless they were big enough to put on the wall, except for the young kids. And wouldn’t you know it,after a few years we’ve been shooting wall hangers every year. We still shoot doe’s for meat, not everyone kills a buck each year. And not a single acre is leased and we’re not the sole party with permission to hunt either.


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## buckeyebowman

That's kind of how my BIL does it. He has permission to hunt a fairly large farm in SE Ohio. He also has a wall full of trophies at home, most from this property. The genetics are really good there. When he sees a buck his criteria is "Is this one bigger than the biggest trophy I have?" If it's not, it gets a pass.

He'd rather shoot a nice, fat doe for venison.

EDIT: His best so far is just under 180.


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## Saugernut

Molson said:


> Lmao.. Some people are Just Blind, Deaf and Dumb when is comes to Leasing.. They are just Upset that their Freeloading Days are Over.. Jealousy


So....
If someone comes to your state and leases up all the ground you’ve hunted on your whole life you’d be fine with that right???
The answer is no you wouldn’t and if you said yes you are a liar flat out. You guys don’t understand what you are doing to the sport and the family tradition of hunting but you don’t care either. I hear the same thing every time lease or buy your own land in a perfect world that would be great. But now a days we have people with more money than brains. Carry on enjoy and when it’s all gone you can sit back and remember the good old days like the rest of us freeloaders.


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## Lundy

Your anger at the leaser is mis-directed. Leasers don't own the property you have been hunting on forever, leasers can't force any landowner anywhere to lease out his property for hunting and kick you off. The landowner is the only person in control of his property and what he does with it. If you have to be mad at someone for killing what you desire to remain the same, you need to direct it at those that actually control the outcome, the landowners.


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## Saugernut

No I don’t and won’t blame the landowner.
Just like everything else these days money is the root of all evil, cash is king, that’s what it’s all about.
I can’t blame someone who’s down on their luck and they see a way out by leasing. No sir I blame the tv, internet morons who blast their deer all over social media and have for years. I blame our state for being so cheap to come and hunt and a host of other factors, but definitely would not blame the land owner.


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## Shad Rap

Molson said:


> Lmao.. Some people are Just Blind, Deaf and Dumb when is comes to Leasing.. They are just Upset that their Freeloading Days are Over.. Jealousy


What's wrong with just going around and seeking permission to hunt like most of us do????..leasers are blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to actually taking the time to seek a property to hunt...they just wanna put money down and say here you go...lame...take the time to go around and ask permission, help the landowner out if they need a hand...try it...it works...nothing worse than an out of state (or in-state for that matter) leaser...stay home...personally I can't stand someone who leases up property...you just want the property to yourself and your little group of lazy friends...ignorant...sorry...leasing is a touchy subject with me.


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## overcheck

Lundy said:


> Your anger at the leaser is mis-directed. Leasers don't own the property you have been hunting on forever, leasers can't force any landowner anywhere to lease out his property for hunting and kick you off. The landowner is the only person in control of his property and what he does with it. If you have to be mad at someone for killing what you desire to remain the same, you need to direct it at those that actually control the outcome, the landowners.


If leasing is what land owner's want; why not have odnr pay the lease and make it public hunting for all


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## Ctowner

the deer will likely die off completely from deceace like the quail pheasents so enjoy while we have them


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## Lundy

overcheck said:


> If leasing is what land owner's want; why not have odnr pay the lease and make it public hunting for all


Because the government does not and can not control private property. However if the ODNR offered compensation to land owners THAT WERE WILLING to allow access as public hunting and every hunting license was $300 - $500 to support the program with funds that would be great.


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## Lundy

Saugernut said:


> No I don’t and won’t blame the landowner.
> Just like everything else these days money is the root of all evil, cash is king, that’s what it’s all about.
> I can’t blame someone who’s down on their luck and they see a way out by leasing. No sir I blame the tv, internet morons who blast their deer all over social media and have for years. I blame our state for being so cheap to come and hunt and a host of other factors, but definitely would not blame the land owner.


You actually really need to just blame yourself if you lose hunting property access to others, leasers or not. The land owner would in that instance value others contribution, money or otherwise, more than they value what you have provided in return for access to their property or they they have concerns for how you respect their property when you are their guest. I've seen both or combinations of both many times over the years.

There have been a few posts here recently from landowners expressing concern about hunters requesting access to hunt their property but not willing to provide any value (money or work) in return for that privilege.

This is not a real difficult concept.


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## Morrowtucky Mike

overcheck said:


> If leasing is what land owner's want; why not have odnr pay the lease and make it public hunting for all


Ohio’s division of wildlife doesn’t have money.


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## Morrowtucky Mike

If you cannot get hunting permission in Ohio you are lazy and not really even trying. Or you might just come across as sketchy to landowners. I lose land every year. I just deal with it. I just lost 350 acres from being sold. I went to the auction and secured 108 of it back from the new owner and have picked up about 100 additional acres from the new owner that I didn’t have before.


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## Saugernut

Lundy said:


> You actually really need to just blame yourself if you lose hunting property access to others, leasers or not. The land owner would in that instance value others contribution, money or otherwise, more than they value what you have provided in return for access to their property or they they have concerns for how you respect their property when you are their guest. I've seen both or combinations of both many times over the years.
> 
> There have been a few posts here recently from landowners expressing concern about hunters requesting access to hunt their property but not willing to provide any value (money or work) in return for that privilege.
> 
> This is not a real difficult concept.


You just can’t help yourself can you.
You have no idea who I am or what I’ve dealt with over the past several years with leasing nor would I take the time to explain it to you because your mind is already made up, yet you want to judge me sit on your high horse and say I’m the one to blame. I’m gonna stay nice and not stoop to your level but I don’t value or care for your opinion on anything so keep it to yourself.


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## Fish-N-Fool

Leasing is a touchy subject for many. Although not new (I knew of guys leasing hunting land in Muskingum county in the early 90s) leasing has certainly exploded the last decade or so. It went from just a few leasing to common and almost expected in some areas now. 

I didn't like the concept at all being somebody who grew up on a family farm and had many relationships with land owners, etc. The concept of paying to hunt was foreign to me. You always knew the landowner, many times did odd jobs for them (I bailed a lot of hay and straw for instance). 

I know it certainly has made access much more difficult. I have rarely had an issue obtaining permission to hunt private property for free. I know a lot of folks and I have seen a lot of land exchange hands. Access comes and goes for me. Many guys I know have bought land to secure a place. Others I know participate in 1 or more leases; some small and some larger "group" arrangements. 

I'm over it...it is what it is and it will not change any time soon. I personally will never pay to hunt unless it is the taxes and payment on land I own - my choice. I don't have any problems securing private land to hunt. I'm good to land owners and don't need to go into detail - I'll just say I'm never asked not to hunt a property any more and only lost access from exchange of ownership. I currently have access to more acres of land that I can scout and hunt with my schedule (approximately 500 acres). I have sole permission on exactly none of it. I would have no problem adding more. Most times I don;t ask for permission - the land owner offers it to me. If that ever changes I'll buy something or simply hunt public. I have found the public land to be quite good hunting and hunted some on public this year even with all the private land access. I doubt I will ever have that issue.


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## $diesel$

Saugernut said:


> No I don’t and won’t blame the landowner.
> Just like everything else these days money is the root of all evil, cash is king, that’s what it’s all about.
> I can’t blame someone who’s down on their luck and they see a way out by leasing. No sir I blame the tv, internet morons who blast their deer all over social media and have for years. I blame our state for being so cheap to come and hunt and a host of other factors, but definitely would not blame the land owner.


Saugernut, i'm not trying to get in the arguement, just want to share a little insight. When i was younger and hunting alot, i used to stop and ask the landowner (farmers) if i could get permission to hunt groundhogs in they're fields. More times than not, they would give me permission gladly, they cost the farmer dearly at time frrom broken equipment. Do it in the spring and show up. By the time deer season rolls around they will usually give you permission because they know you now.
While you are there hog hunt'n and see a problem try to take care of it for him and soon he will know your the decent type.


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## STRONGPERSUADER

$diesel$ said:


> Saugernut, i'm not trying to get in the arguement, just want to share a little insight. When i was younger and hunting alot, i used to stop and ask the landowner (farmers) if i could get permission to hunt groundhogs in they're fields. More times than not, they would give me permission gladly, they cost the farmer dearly at time frrom broken equipment. Do it in the spring and show up. By the time deer season rolls around they will usually give you permission because they know you now.
> While you are there hog hunt'n and see a problem try to take care of it for him and soon he will know your the decent type.


Did the exact same thing when I was younger. It’s just not like it use to be unfortunately. But your right. They always liked when I hunted crows too. But it got me permission to deer and turkey hunt.


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## Lundy

Saugernut said:


> You just can’t help yourself can you.
> You have no idea who I am or what I’ve dealt with over the past several years with leasing nor would I take the time to explain it to you because your mind is already made up, yet you want to judge me sit on your high horse and say I’m the one to blame. I’m gonna stay nice and not stoop to your level but I don’t value or care for your opinion on anything so keep it to yourself.


No I will not keep my opinion to myself. You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine, Just because you don't care for my opinion is no basis for me not be able to express mine. My "mind being made up" isn't a current condition I created but much more a realization and acceptance of reality today. As a non land owner we (you) can cry all we (you) want about the changes that have occurred over the years regarding hunter access to private property, but it does not and will not change the reality that landowners control who does and who does not gain access to THEIR property using whatever criteria they choose. You seem to be very sensitive about this subject


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## Saugernut

You are correct about one thing the sensitivity of this subject. Listen you are not going to change my mind and I obviously not going to change yours. Typical, I’m done have a good day.


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## fastwater

overcheck said:


> If leasing is what land owner's want; why not have odnr pay the lease and make it public hunting for all


Hunting...and the issues with it sure brings out some wild...almost hilarious ideas out of some people!
Can't speak for everyone else but there's one thing you can right down on your calendar. The day the government...or any parts thereof, dictates to me who is rightfully allowed on my property(with the obvious exception of LE doing their job) is a day you will read about in the paper.
I don't lease the little bit of land I own. But if I took a notion to do so, I would lease to whom I wanted to and allow who I wanted on my property.
Last I checked, this is still the U.S.A. ! Not some communist country.


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## UNCLEMIKE

The same but different in a way. I hunt primarily public land so in recent years I have been upset with the over harvest and negative changes to my hobby of hunting public lands. Leasing is impacting those that hunt private land in a negative way. I see both sides and feel badly for those that are impacted. Deer hunting is not like your average hobby. We all are passionate about it. It hurts to see some of these changes taking place. Gotta roll with the punches guys. Give each other some slack, change sucks at times.


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## one3

Leasing, is not what this thread is about. Although, it may make for some intersting conversation. We, have seem to have drifted off the course of this thread. The thread is supposed to be about why you belive there are less and less hunters, and what do you belive the future of hunting will be. Remember, some states have public land. So, leasing may not be a factor.


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## Lundy

Without a doubt land access has played a role in decreased hunter numbers and leasing has for sure had a negative influence on hunter access. 

An aging population on hunters that is not being replaced by younger generations of hunters.


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## fastwater

Another huge role in the decrease of availability of private hunting land is the land owner of larger tracts of land passing away and large developers/land buying agencies buying up the land as quick as it comes on the market. They then divide land up into smaller 2-5 acre tracts for development. 
IMO, this is the biggest culprit that I have seen as far as huntable land disappearing.

Agree with Lundy on the current aging population of hunters not being replaced by younger hunters as the reason for less hunters.
Really don't look for that to turn around either unless someone figures out a way to have actual deer run through a computer or game boy screen and young people can shoot them with their game controllers.


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## Muddy

Farming is tough business. Increasing tax rates, increasing land cost, increasing machinery cost, increased fertilizer prices, etc, etc while commodity prices stay stagnant. Farmers have to seize every opportunity that they can to make a go of it. You think that the hunting population is aging, look at the farming demographics. Young guys just can’t hardly make it. Any extra income really helps. Leasing is a good thing for many farm families.


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## turkeyt

Deer numbers are down in some areas and steady in others. Some things to consider are the deer have adapted and lots have became urban dwellers. Never saw as many deer in the back yard as I do now. Less licenses sold in recent years also. Family life has taken a big chunk out of people hunting. Jobs have caused people to travel more and having less time off. One of the biggest reasons for less hunting by youngsters is school activities. Kids used to have a choice of a few activities. Nowadays they have upwards of over 30 choices to participate in. Sports, band, etc. Chasing after the kids everyday to all their activities and appointments has taken family life to a different level. Cooked meals have fell victim to fast food and family time has dwindled. So has time in the woods. Just saying.......


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## killingtime

turkeyt said:


> Deer numbers are down in some areas and steady in others. Some things to consider are the deer have adapted and lots have became urban dwellers. Never saw as many deer in the back yard as I do now. Less licenses sold in recent years also. Family life has taken a big chunk out of people hunting. Jobs have caused people to travel more and having less time off. One of the biggest reasons for less hunting by youngsters is school activities. Kids used to have a choice of a few activities. Nowadays they have upwards of over 30 choices to participate in. Sports, band, etc. Chasing after the kids everyday to all their activities and appointments has taken family life to a different level. Cooked meals have fell victim to fast food and family time has dwindled. So has time in the woods. Just saying.......


So much truth in this post especially about the family life.


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## buckeyebowman

fastwater said:


> Another huge role in the decrease of availability of private hunting land is the land owner of larger tracts of land passing away and large developers/land buying agencies buying up the land as quick as it comes on the market. They then divide land up into smaller 2-5 acre tracts for development.
> IMO, this is the biggest culprit that I have seen as far as huntable land disappearing.
> 
> Agree with Lundy on the current aging population of hunters not being replaced by younger hunters as the reason for less hunters.
> Really don't look for that to turn around either unless someone figures out a way to have actual deer run through a computer or game boy screen and young people can shoot them with their game controllers.


What kills me about the business model you illustrated in your first paragraph, is that when the deer that are left in the habitat eat all the hostas and day lilies, the owners of these big fancy homes get mad at the deer! Hey, you moved onto their turf, not the other way around! But will they allow bowhunters on their property to thin the herd? In the vast majority of cases the answer is a resounding NO! 



Muddy said:


> Farming is tough business. Increasing tax rates, increasing land cost, increasing machinery cost, increased fertilizer prices, etc, etc while commodity prices stay stagnant. Farmers have to seize every opportunity that they can to make a go of it. You think that the hunting population is aging, look at the farming demographics. Young guys just can’t hardly make it. Any extra income really helps. Leasing is a good thing for many farm families.


Farming has been a rather desperate enterprise for quite a while now. Everything costs more, and a lot of it is dependent on the weather unless you can irrigate. In which case you have to have water sources, pumps, and the fuel to run the pumps. Plus, the way the commodity market is set up doesn't help. Let's say everything goes perfect and farmers are enjoying bumper crops. What happens to prices? They go DOWN! If your yields are good enough you might make a little more money, but it's hardly a windfall. 

Then let's say it's a bad year. Commodity prices go up, but you don't have very much to sell. No matter which way you go, the deck is stacked against you.


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## bobk

[QUOTE="Lundy, post: 2568983, member: 
An aging population on hunters that is not being replaced by younger generations of hunters.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a larger issue than many understand it to be.


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## Morrowtucky Mike

bobk said:


> [QUOTE="Lundy, post: 2568983, member:
> An aging population on hunters that is not being replaced by younger generations of hunters.


I think this is a larger issue than many understand it to be.[/QUOTE]
It simply amazes me how many die hard hunters are out there that have never taken their kids hunting. Or when they finally do decide to when they are in their teens they wonder why they have no interest. My daughter is about to turn 21 and my son just turned 16 this month. I remember my daughter riding in my pack basket checking traps when she was 3 years old. And my son watching me shoot a doe during muzzleloader season when he was 4. He got his best buck to date this youth season after passing on 10 other bucks and does earlier that morning. Man was I proud and watched it all from 6” away.


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## Fish-N-Fool

Some of it is just population numbers. The baby boomers are getting older, knees, eyesight and other physical ailments are hitting many "boomers" forcing them to stop hunting. I know several of these guys.....a gang of former hunters age 60's. The generations of hunting age are not as large a demographic as the big boomer generation. We are losing them quickly and many of them were passionate hunters. 

I also know a group of younger guys that have quit. Why? They started hunting at the Pinnacle of deer hunting in OH due to their age. Access was not so tough and there were a LOT more deer around. The herd has been trimmed, they quit seeing deer every time out and well they got bored. They are more interested in going to B-Dubs for fantasy football league and sleeping in.
I have nephews that fall into this category. Still love to shoot, but gave up deer hunting. 

And I cannot agree more with the pace of life these days taking a toll. I know between my wife and myself we average 1,600 miles a week on the road. Between long work hours, the after-school activities, trying to visit family, and keep your house in order there just isn't much free time. Add travel time to and fro hunting grounds (I travel 2.5 hours 1 way to my main area currently). A lot of missed hours of sleep must be had to keep up with the hobby!

Also, I see a lot of parents that do not have backgrounds in hunting / shooting shy away from or not allow their children to participate in hunting and shooting sports. With the school shootings, the news, etc. and them having no background they are not comfortable with it. Heck, my 11 yr old had a friend over this summer and they shot his little compound bow in the yard while I supervised. Next kids bball game the mother has to have a "talk" with me about how they do not want him around weapons. This is a 20lb training compound for kids with blunt tips. Good thing I ran out of time we were going to start shooting the .22 air rifles. Shame in it is - her boy loved every minute of shooting that bow. They live in the city, his dad is an attorney - they do nothing outdoors. He lit up like a Christmas tree when he let that arrow rip. This is a real problem also.


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## Shad Rap

fastwater said:


> Hunting...and the issues with it sure brings out some wild...almost hilarious ideas out of some people!
> Can't speak for everyone else but there's one thing you can right down on your calendar. The day the government...or any parts thereof, dictates to me who is rightfully allowed on my property(with the obvious exception of LE doing their job) is a day you will read about in the paper.
> I don't lease the little bit of land I own. But if I took a notion to do so, I would lease to whom I wanted to and allow who I wanted on my property.
> Last I checked, this is still the U.S.A. ! Not some communist country.


I don't think he was saying that you would HAVE TO lease out your land...only if you wanted to lease it out...that would be the price you pay...maybe I'm wrong...who knows, who cares I guess...it is kinda silly...but I liked it...lol.
Most of the people who own land don't see a problem with leasing (not saying every land owner would do it) and they will do it just for the money, not who they are letting on their land...its the people who don't own land that have a problem with it.
I can understand both points of view.
Talking about leasing in this thread is not off topic...it all ties into the topic.


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## fastwater

Shad Rap said:


> I don't think he was saying that you would HAVE TO lease out your land.*..only if you wanted to lease it out...that would be the price you pay*...maybe I'm wrong...who knows, who cares I guess...it is kinda silly...but I liked it...lol.
> Most of the people who own land don't see a problem with leasing (not saying every land owner would do it) *and they will do it just for the money, not who they are letting on their land...*its the people who don't own land that have a problem with it.
> I can understand both points of view.
> Talking about leasing in this thread is not off topic...it all ties into the topic.


*only if you wanted to lease it out...that would be the price you pay...:*
Again, if I decided to lease my land for whatever legal reason, the government should in no way should be able to dictate who I lease it to or have to let on my property. Period!

*and they will do it just for the money, not who they are letting on their land:*
I know a lot of property owners and more than a few that lease all, or a portion of their property out for various reasons. Trust me when I tell you since a lease that is done right is a legally binding document with possible ramifications on both sides if breeched, the smart land owners are very concerned about who they lease to and let on their property. Just like dealing with house rentals/leasing, bad land lease tenants can be just as big a headache.
Like anything else though, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule.


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## buckeyebowman

Also, someone earlier mentioned that are far fewer rabbits and pheasants around. This can be traced to 2 major factors. Land use practices and increased predation. A lot of the tree lines, brush lines and coverts have disappeared to open up more land for planting. Increased numbers of coyotes, feral cats, and raptors have also done a number on them. Add in difficulty of access and who's going to bother?

I started out hunting rabbits, then pheasants. A couple of buddies did the same. My BIL started out squirrel hunting. They were what he was allowed to hunt on his own at the age of 8 with a single shot 410! Heck, when we were getting going there were still quail around! Deer were a mystery, and wild turkey were unheard of! 

I once heard someone say that the ODNR cares more about turkey than pheasant because they can sell permits to hunt turkey, but nobody will buy a permit to hunt pheasant!


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## 9Left

I don't know man… Personally, I feel that bow hunting has absolutely caught fire among the younger generation… Until a couple years ago, I would have never dreamed of watching something called "YouTube "... but if you follow it to any extent, you'll see that there are literally hundreds of young hunters with YouTube channels that are taking people along on their hunts , so to speak,Hell, some of them are actually making good points and teaching valuable information…..Then look at the bottom of the screen and look how many "views " and subscribers these channels have... and these are only the successful ones, there are literally one to 2 million people watching these channels… And I'm pretty sure that it's mostly younger people who are wanting to get into hunting and learn about it...now before anyone says anything, I absolutely do not agree that this is a good way for someone to learn how to hunt… And yes I do think that there are a lot of Young dads out there that just don't take the time to walk in the woods with their kids . All I can say is that I'm glad that my dad did, and I will do the same for my kids and do my best to pass it on.


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## 9Left

There is one other topic that I think should be discussed, and for the record, I don't want to make this political at all, so please refrain...

You can't ignore the last decade of disgusting gun violence in schools ... there's a whole Lotta young kids out there that now think guns are just an evil evil thing and should be thrown away… Try to put yourself in the situation of being in grade school or high school and trying to bring up the subject of hunting with a 12 gauge shotgun or a rifle… And telling your friends how much fun you had hunting with dads gun… I'm pretty sure that's not gonna be a well received topic at recess or lunch anymore...


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## buckeyebowman

I think you have a point. And kids have, for the most part, become so "urbanized" today. I remember back when I and my main hunting buddy got out first cars. we'd drive out to a little town out in the country where we had a bunch of spots to rabbit and pheasant hunt. At lunch time we'd drive into town and eat at a little diner there. It was nothing to see young kids walking down the street with shotguns over their shoulders. These were raise around guns and hunting and, more importantly, they were raised the right way!


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## fastwater

Very good point lazy. 
Heck, many of the more rural schools even used to let the kids off school opening day of deer shotgun season. All that went away, especially since the youth hunting seasons came about. Even with the youth hunting seasons, when my kids were in school, if they wanted to hunt opening day, as long as their grades and prior attendance were good, I still let them take off school and we went hunting. Since they very much looked forward to opening day, they knew if their grades weren't up to par come season, they weren't going to be able to miss school to go so it was an incentive for them to keep their grades up.


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## miked913

When I was in junior high we had a trap club, on Mondays we'd get together and reload shells, then Tuesday we'd shoot out in the back of the school next to the football field, during football season I'd carry my gun in one hand and shoulder pads with helmet in the other, since I played I would get to shoot first. We literally shot and then I'd put my helmet on and go practice 50 yards away. Our parents had to bring our guns to the school and the instructor would lock them up there until Tuesday. Now I had come from a gun owning/using family but we had a number of kids in our club who until joining had never held a gun. We learned all aspects of gun handling, cleaning, care, reloading and how to shoot. This all came about because there were a couple hunting accidents in our community and one was fatal. Hunter education was just getting going, so instead of people taking the guns away and demonizing them, education and familiarity was the answer, the right answer , it was then and still is today.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## Morrowtucky Mike

Been thinkin bout this thread for a bit. I’m not sure about this so if someone does know please reply. As far as hunters numbers declining how do they come up with these numbers? I’m assuming it’s from purchased license. But the new craze is buying your own land to hunt on and to have a place for your kids to hunt on for generations etc.... well since you don’t need a license in Ohio to hunt your own land or parents land are these people being counted? And I’m sure most states have a similar law. They are definitely hunting, that’s why they purchased the land. Back in the day farmers owned the land most people hunted so everyone bought their license and usually the farmers did too if they hunted because they would hunt the neighbors lands also as a big group say during gun season. Lots of large farms are being divided and sold into smaller parcels and sportsmen are buying a lot of these properties to have a place to hunt for themselves. Just wondering if these people might not be counted for not purchasing a license. I know it can’t be the whole reason for the decline but could it be some percentage? Any thoughts....


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## Harry1959

Mike, I’m pretty sure the hunter numbers I posted a few pages back came from license sales. I personally don’t think the number of hunters who own land and wouldn’t be counted would be all that significant. I would however guess that deer hunter numbers have not decreased near as much as small game hunters have. We have almost no grouse, wild pheasants or quail to hunt, so we have lost most of that population of hunters.


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## Morrowtucky Mike

Harry1959 said:


> Mike, I’m pretty sure the hunter numbers I posted a few pages back came from license sales. I personally don’t think the number of hunters who own land and wouldn’t be counted would be all that significant


Your definitely right, it wouldn’t be a real high number but I do think it’s probably higher than some would think. I know of a bunch of people in my area that only hunt their 10 acres or so and kill a deer every year but never buy a license. Maybe when they check in a deer somehow it’s put into the system but I have no idea. Seems like it would be even more likely to happen in the southern and eastern parts of the state than just north of Columbus where I live. It was just a thought that I had from talking to a friend earlier that was thinking about buying a 35 acre woods that we have permission to hunt but just came onto the market this morning.


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## Harry1959

Good points mike, may be more significant than I think....


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## Lundy

No they would not need a license but they would need to report the deer kill as landowner. The process absolutely captures hunter numbers with or with out a purchased license if they kill a deer or a turkey.


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> No they would not need a license but they would need to report the deer kill as landowner. The process absolutely captures hunter numbers with or with out a purchased license if they kill a deer or a turkey.


Yep! There's more to the equation than license purchase only.


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## $diesel$

Harry1959 said:


> Mike, I’m pretty sure the hunter numbers I posted a few pages back came from license sales. I personally don’t think the number of hunters who own land and wouldn’t be counted would be all that significant. I would however guess that deer hunter numbers have not decreased near as much as small game hunters have. We have almost no grouse, wild pheasants or quail to hunt, so we have lost most of that population of hunters.


I was awake all night one day last week with nothing to do. I found a show on youtube called "The Wrath of God." It was about the 2 back to back winters of 1977-78 and 1978-79. I know i'm a little off subject here, but Harry's post brought this back to mind.
Those 2 winters, in my opinion, are what done in our game birds. As a kid i can remember pheasants in the yard and the garden. They were everywhere.
I'm sure there were other factors that played into their demise, clean farming, lose of habitat, etc, etc.
But i never really thought about this lose of game hurting hunter recruitment until now. Harry makes a good point, i never started hunting deer til my son became of age and wanted to hunt them, i was happy hunting rabbits and squirrels.
We're blaming everything else for lose of recruitment, we may as well throw in Mother Nature.


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## STRONGPERSUADER

$diesel$ said:


> I was awake all night one day last week with nothing to do. I found a show on youtube called "The Wrath of God." It was about the 2 back to back winters of 1977-78 and 1978-79. I know i'm a little off subject here, but Harry's post brought this back to mind.
> Those 2 winters, in my opinion, are what done in our game birds. As a kid i can remember pheasants in the yard and the garden. They were everywhere.
> I'm sure there were other factors that played into their demise, clean farming, lose of habitat, etc, etc.
> But i never really thought about this lose of game hurting hunter recruitment until now. Harry makes a good point, i never started hunting deer til my son became of age and wanted to hunt them, i was happy hunting rabbits and squirrels.
> We're blaming everything else for lose of recruitment, we may as well throw in Mother Nature.


Same here . We use to flush coveys of quail while rabbit hunting prior to those years out by the fairgrounds in Richland county. Always flushed a few pheasant also. Didn’t see any quail after the blizzards. Lack of habitat hurt both big time, pheasant are pretty hearty birds. There just wasn’t enough habitat for the quail to make a comeback. There were no quail season for years in the entire state and then and the only in southern counties. It’s a sad thing.


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## Redheads

$diesel$ said:


> I was awake all night one day last week with nothing to do. I found a show on youtube called "The Wrath of God." It was about the 2 back to back winters of 1977-78 and 1978-79. I know i'm a little off subject here, but Harry's post brought this back to mind.
> Those 2 winters, in my opinion, are what done in our game birds. As a kid i can remember pheasants in the yard and the garden. They were everywhere.
> I'm sure there were other factors that played into their demise, clean farming, lose of habitat, etc, etc.
> But i never really thought about this lose of game hurting hunter recruitment until now. Harry makes a good point, i never started hunting deer til my son became of age and wanted to hunt them, i was happy hunting rabbits and squirrels.
> We're blaming everything else for lose of recruitment, we may as well throw in Mother Nature.


Continuing off topic........sorry

I remember those winters and the decline of grouse afterwards. I still remember guys complain of the lack of birds.
I also remember hearing that the grouse were also a cyclical bird and in 10 years they would rebound and be plentiful once again....not sure where that came from but do remember it clearly.
For whatever its worth im still waiting


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## Burkcarp1

I don’t understand why we even have a grouse season....


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## Harry1959

For what it’s worth, studies say grouse hunting has little impact on grouse populations. Hawks,coyotes and possibly even turkeys raiding nests has a much larger effect. 
Although the late 70’s winters did severe damage to quail populations, during the late 90’s I still encountered wild quail frequently on both public and private land. I live in rural warren county and never see or hear quail any more. I can’t help but think our exploding coyote population has affected quail and grouse even more than it has deer. Especially quail as they are very vocal, ground nesting birds. Sorry to drift off topic


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## one3

I, am not real sure the coulpe of harsh winters had a lot to do with why there are no birds.The winters in the western states seem to be a lot harsher than ours, and theos states seem to have pleanty of birds. As far as the habitat goes, yes there has been some loss of land due to urban sprawl. However, I see a lot of the same fields,treelines and country side that i have been seeing for years as well. So what happen to the birds around here? Maybe we will never know.


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## Misdirection

Here in PA, they are pointing to the West Nile virus as a reason for the grouse population collapse. At least their studying it with hopes to have a solution in the future


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## STRONGPERSUADER

The habitat just isn’t there anymore to support them. Shopping centers and developments. There is where it all went. Seen it a 100 times. Why do you think all the deer are in the metro parks and back yards, standing beside the Walmart’s? They have adapted along with the yote. You will never see pheasant and quail walking down Main Street like the deer, yote, and turkey. Survival of the fittest. It’s done. Cherish what you have and let’s hope the government can continue to regulate what we have publicly.


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## Harry1959

SP...... habitat is why we don’t have widespread quail and grouse like we used to. But I’ve lived in good quail habitat that hasn’t changed for 20 years and 20 years ago there were huntable coveys of quail in that habitat and now they are gone. Back in the 90’s I lived by a nature preserve that wa absolutely loaded with quail, it’s still a nature preserve and all the quail are gone.
Right now in Ohio, I hunt some of the best grouse habitat that I have ever seen in Ohio and I’ve been grouse hunting for over 30 years. I find very very few birds. For decades the Dnr has blamed it on habitat. Now we again have some great grouse habitat, but no birds. WNV is having some impact, but at this stage we don’t know how much. I’ve read that when a grouse survives wnv that it does pass on immunity, but only for 1 generation. So if the next generation of grouse isn’t exposed to wnv, the next hatch won’t have immunity. I do believe I read this in the Pennsylvania study on wnv.


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## buckeyebowman

Redheads said:


> Continuing off topic........sorry
> 
> I remember those winters and the decline of grouse afterwards. I still remember guys complain of the lack of birds.
> I also remember hearing that the grouse were also a cyclical bird and in 10 years they would rebound and be plentiful once again....not sure where that came from but do remember it clearly.
> For whatever its worth im still waiting


As per your OP, yes the winters of '77 thru '79 wiped out the quail in much of Ohio. There were lots of quail up here, and me and my buddy knew where they were! But it's kind of tough for a bird about the size of a cornish game hen to survive under hip deep snow and sub zero temps! And quail are kind of an anomaly this far North anyway. They're basically a southern bird. 

As far as grouse go, their populations were at their best when Ohio was being logged on a regular basis. Grouse love successional habitat. Another buddy and I had a grouse hunting spot that was great. It hadn't been logged, but there were lots of wild grape vines. We'd hunt the spots where the vines had dragged down trees, opening up the canopy. The big grape vine tangles, and the weeds and saplings that sprang up, would usually hold a bird or two. 

One of the last times we were there, we noticed that someone, probably the landowner, had gone through the woods and cut all the grape vines. Some of them were very old, coming out of the ground as thick as my calf! Maybe he was looking to sell some timber. I've read that, back in the day, your hunting license would come with a packet of wild grape seeds that they'd want you to scatter in the woods. 

Seems that even back then, wildlife biologists understood that climax forest is not the ideal habitat for very many species of wild life!


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## Misdirection

buckeyebowman said:


> As per your OP, yes the winters of '77 thru '79 wiped out the quail in much of Ohio. There were lots of quail up here, and me and my buddy knew where they were! But it's kind of tough for a bird about the size of a cornish game hen to survive under hip deep snow and sub zero temps! And quail are kind of an anomaly this far North anyway. They're basically a southern bird.
> 
> As far as grouse go, their populations were at their best when Ohio was being logged on a regular basis. Grouse love successional habitat. Another buddy and I had a grouse hunting spot that was great. It hadn't been logged, but there were lots of wild grape vines. We'd hunt the spots where the vines had dragged down trees, opening up the canopy. The big grape vine tangles, and the weeds and saplings that sprang up, would usually hold a bird or two.
> 
> One of the last times we were there, we noticed that someone, probably the landowner, had gone through the woods and cut all the grape vines. Some of them were very old, coming out of the ground as thick as my calf! Maybe he was looking to sell some timber. I've read that, back in the day, your hunting license would come with a packet of wild grape seeds that they'd want you to scatter in the woods.
> 
> Seems that even back then, wildlife biologists understood that climax forest is not the ideal habitat for very many species of wild life!


I can remember getting those packets of grape seeds with my license when I was a kid!

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## D. R.Hodge

One thing affecting the amount of hunter is the non-use of public hunting land. My sons and I use to hunt Egypt Valley in the mid to late 90's. For example, there use to be dozens of vehicles lining Reynolds Road in Belmont County during the deer firearms season. Because the area is impossible to hunt from the tall, thick brush, it now serves as a wildlife sanctuary that is loaded with deer. Since I live two mile off of this road, A person would see a dozen deer walking on Reynolds Road at night. It's a shame the state doesn't take care of this area which is 18,000 acres. Perhaps there are other public hunting lands with similar problems.


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## UNCLEMIKE

D. R.Hodge said:


> One thing affecting the amount of hunter is the non-use of public hunting land. My sons and I use to hunt Egypt Valley in the mid to late 90's. For example, there use to be dozens of vehicles lining Reynolds Road in Belmont County during the deer firearms season. Because the area is impossible to hunt from the tall, thick brush, it now serves as a wildlife sanctuary that is loaded with deer. Since I live two mile off of this road, A person would see a dozen deer walking on Reynolds Road at night. It's a shame the state doesn't take care of this area which is 18,000 acres. Perhaps there are other public hunting lands with similar problems.


I hunted Egypt valley off Belmont ridge Rd today. Walked miles. With it being so wet and warm this winter the ground shows clearly where deer are traveling. The lack of sign was sad. Rubs, scrapes nope, deer crap... some but very little. Trails lightly used. This area was hit hard with EHD several years back and has not rebounded at all. I would guess there is less than a quarter of the deer now as say just 5 years ago. I heard just two shots all day that may have been on public land. WOW!


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## 9Left

You guys are nutz... i hunted off both of those roads today... i saw 15 seperate does. Would have easily been tagged out by 8 am if it were not for the buck only rule. With the ground being wet, i was able to catch 4 of those does bedded down. i also did see 2 bucks, very young ones tho. And the buck sign was ridiculous! Rubs and big tracks everywhere.


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## one3

WHD, EHD really conserns me about the future of hunting.


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## UNCLEMIKE

9Left said:


> You guys are nutz... i hunted off both of those roads today... i saw 15 seperate does. Would have easily been tagged out by 8 am if it were not for the buck only rule. With the ground being wet, i was able to catch 4 of those does bedded down. i also did see 2 bucks, very young ones tho. And the buck sign was ridiculous! Rubs and big tracks everywhere.


That is good to know. Perhaps they are concentrated on a food source? there is no agriculture off either road that I am aware of. Feeding on acorns maybe? Reynolds Rd only runs about a mile. Would you be willing to share if you were off the left or right side as you drive down towards the lake? On top or in the bottoms. I stayed on top as at my age I do not want to try and drag one out of the bottoms there. Not too proud to say PM me if you like. Good luck with the remainder of the season.


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## D. R.Hodge

Well, Reynolds is over 2 1/2 mi. long. I always hunted on the left side(near 800). The right side had most of the hunters and some of the deer would be chased over to the left side. Got some nice one years ago, before there was too thick and tall brush. Both area would be hard to shoot or spot deer. That's why there are only one or two vehicles on the road from the hunters.


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## 9Left

Uncle mike... i hunted on the right side... I have no problem giving away the location because I went in there this morning and made the same hike and didn't see a thing ...They just move from one place to another... The access to that area, from the road, is very difficult, it is full of those Russian olive bushes and you can barely stand up when you're on the top… I kicked up a few deer in the thick stuff and then saw a lot of deer when I started coming down the point into the open hardwoods


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## 9Left




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## UNCLEMIKE

9Left said:


> Uncle mike... i hunted on the right side... I have no problem giving away the location because I went in there this morning and made the same hike and didn't see a thing ...They just move from one place to another... The access to that area, from the road, is very difficult, it is full of those Russian olive bushes and you can barely stand up when you're on the top… I kicked up a few deer in the thick stuff and then saw a lot of deer when I started coming down the point into the open hardwoods
> View attachment 288381


I know what you mean about the olive bushes. When I started hunting that area when it first went public those tops were mainly open fields. You need a bull dozer to get thru them now. Than you for sharing the info! I may get back down there soon.


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## UNCLEMIKE

9Left said:


> View attachment 288383


In looking at this closer I see now that Reynolds Rd runs both on the north side and south side of the lake. The area I have been hunting is North of the lake close to Holloway rather than south off 800. I will have to drive around that side as I have not hunted there in quite a few years.


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## 9Left

Mike... the only reynolds road that i know of...comes off 800 and ends at the boat ramp


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## D. R.Hodge

You're right 9left.


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## UNCLEMIKE

D. R.Hodge said:


> You're right 9left.


If you look directly across the lake from the end of Reynolds road there is ....Reynolds road that ends in the lake from the other direction. Makes sense that the road was one until the lake was created cutting it in two.


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## D. R.Hodge

Absolutely correct. I was just there 15 min. ago walking my lab.


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## 9Left

Right... reynolds road USE to run across the lake .. I think that was back around 1940 the lake was filled in and now its a road bed underwater


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## 9Left




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## Junebug2320

Our hunt club owns a slice of property in the area and we have ventured out a few times. I can attest that those olive bushes are a beast. From what we’re told the mining companies plant those after they’re done?? If so, why would the powers to be allow those type of “bushes?” Other than $$ ? The amount of deer in our area has dropped don’t know the reason why. Hoping to get back down in a month to coyote hunt. 


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## Northern Reb

In my opinion the lack of huntable land or access to it is the number one factor reducing the number of hunters. I did not start deer hunting until my friend was able to purchase his own property...otherwise I may have never started.

One thing we also have to remember is deer hunting is not something you can just learn in a day or a couple of hunts like small game hunting. It takes a long time, so if someone does not have the patience, or the money, or the gear, or the land then it very easily can go by the wayside.

As far as farmers go I have a love/hate relationship with them....but mostly love. I do have a problem with those who think they own and have access to everyone's land that is close to theirs. Most of them only gun hunt and shoot anything on four legs. We don't have as many deer in NW OH and there is a lot of acres of farm ground, so crop damage is minimal.

In my neck of OH I do not know any farmers who are struggling to make ends meet and in fact it is just the opposite story....most are very well off. Business owners, farmers, investors etc are buying more acres because there is money to be made.


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## slimdaddy45

When I was a kid there was lots of grouse and quail around here where I live in Athens county but Ive only seen 1 grouse here in 40 yrs and no quail but I think there is more deer around here this yr Ive seen more crossing thru my yard than I have in yrs past. The habitat really hasn't changed much in most places some has grown up more but still no birds


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