# Ohio to shorten Grouse season



## Walter Adkins (May 20, 2004)

ODNR has decided to shorten the grouse season by one month. The season will not go to the end of February like it has in the past. Why you may ask. 

Grouse numbers have declined and have not increased on the ten year cycle like they should. After a lengthy multiple state study Ohio has decided the best way to increase grouse populations by shorting the season and taking the daily bag limit down to two birds a day. Trouble with the states proposal is that their own study shows that hunters take less than almost any type of predator of grouse each year. I know, an ego buster to those of us who thought that we were great grouse hunters. What the state is not even addressing are the two primary causes of grouse decline. 

Predators and habitat are the primary reasons for the decline in grouse. Most of the woods in Ohio have turned into mature forest. Grouse like new growth in the 10 to 15 year growth cycle. As for predators birds (hawks) are by far the biggest killer of grouse. They take more grouse than all other predators combined. But the state does not plan on addressing either of these issues. Instead hunters are being punished because we push grouse out of good cover and into cover where predators can kill them. Those are the states own words. 

I just find it sickening that the state would rather go after the hunter instead of trying to solve a real problem. Come 2012 a proposal will be done that will state the hunters are still moving grouse out of cover and into the talons of predators so grouse season should be shortened to December and do away with January. 

I can add more if anyone is interested.


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## supersize (Apr 15, 2004)

What Ohio needs is an open season on all predators including hawks...the game bird population (not just grouse, but quail & pheasant) will never return if the predator population isn't dealt with.


Pete


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## onthewater (May 20, 2005)

While I agree losing a month of Grouse is going to sting a little I don't see how we can complain too much about it based on what has happened to our Grouse population. Anybody who grouse hunted in the 70's and 80's knows just how bad bird numbers are compared to those days. They say 40% of the kill occurs in Feb. I don't doubt this at all, in fact it may be higher. We always loved hunting them in Feb. because they were so easy to find then, south facing slopes with green brier, honeysuckle and Crabapple tangles. 
Not anymore, because they are just not there.
Shortening the season is the one thing the DOW can control. Unfortunately you will never ever see loosening of the laws on killing Raptors, the Feds won't ever allow it.
Feb. is the toughest month of the year for all wildlife to survive whether hunted or not due to cold, reduced food availibilty and less cover to find protection in. You keep pounding a bird this time of year when it's numbers are as pathetic as they are now and they will never come.
It's too bad you guys who have only hunted for them the last few years and get excited about a 5 flush day never got to experience the heyday when an average day was 25 flushes or so.
As for habitat, there is still plenty of good Grouse cover out there. Hunted an area last Sun. that has the best Grouse cover on it I have ever seen and we moved 2 birds. The last time we hunted it, moved 2 birds. 15 years ago in the same type of cover I would have expected to move 10-12 birds.
No other states Grouse numbers have tumbled like Ohio's. No other state allows hunting in Feb.


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## Richman (Sep 1, 2007)

On-the-water, you're dead on in your summation of then, versus now.....Guernsey County 25 years ago, 40 + flushes per day....Scioto County 10 years ago 25 flushes per day. 40% of the hunting does occur in February as does 40% of the mortality. We as hunters pushing birds out of premium cover, do little to help them survive. I did not hunt this year for that very reason.

So far as predator numbers, they are up everywhere not just Ohio. 

It is true that avian predators are benefitting from our interstate highway system with its smorgasboard of small rodents and have greatly increased in numbers. But with good cover grouse numbers can be sustained if not increased by stopping hunting during the time when 40% of the the mortality occurs.

So far as land based predators (coyote,fox,****) get your traps out and have at it.....its a lost art. OR get your varmint rifle out in February and thin the 'yotes 

Finally the guys that manage our game populations have a pretty good handle on things.....give 'em some credit they deserve our support.

Rich


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

Yea the DNR I think has forgot or put upland game bird on the back burner.
I feel that they have given up on Quail and pheasant at least the reintroduction of them. I hope the don't forget or neglect the grouse. They are several years late on this.

As for habitat yea, you can still find some habitat but we have lost a lot. due to the lack of logging in the last 15 years. That is a fact. Just because they log an area, magicaly they are not going to appear. There has to be neighboring habitat caring birds for the home range into the new cleared areas. Not to mention that the right habitat will protect the grouse from predator birds.

Now for predators. A friend of mine in KY. called me an told me he was sitting on his crapper. an a coyote was in his yards so he grabbed his gun and shot it. ( He's got a southern kind of talk) He says Bill I've shot 6 coyote off my crapper. I laughed and then asked him about Grouse. He told me 5 years ago there was hardly none. Now since he kills every coyote and bobcat that he see's he has seen up to 14 in his yard at a time. Moral of the story is nock down the coyotes and start logging. The birds will come.


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## Walter Adkins (May 20, 2004)

No other state allows hunting in February. Try WV for one. The souther coal field area grouse population has increased while the area in Mason and Jackson county have dropped and not raised back in the ten year cycle. The state finds the the reason for both areas increase or decrease is first and formost avian predator population. Both areas have good cover but take a drive down rt 2 and you will see hawks all around. I just got back from grouse hunting a strip mine in southern WV. I saw one hawk all day. 

But with that lets get down to Ohio's plan. Majority of grouse are killed in October and February. So if we do away with February hunters we take away the month with the biggest mortality rate. But what is the reason for the higher mortality rate. Is it hunters, hmmmmmm, not from the states own study. 

The ODNR is not helping the grouse, pheasant or quail by not pushing for a way to control avian predators. People use to think that there would never be elk in Kentucky, wolve hunting out west, or coyotes this far east. One should never say that a season could not be opened and handled on hawks. I believe that not only should there be one but it could be handled the same as any other season with minamal costs. 

Habitat could be started by allowing selective harvesting on public land. Logging companies would pay the state for the wood. Instant capital that should stay in the ODNR not go into the general fund. Selective harvesting would allow instant cover with the abitlity of young growth to start. As for the cost of improving habitat and starting season on predators a upland stamp could be started. 

I am not apposed to shorting the season if I see that it is benificial to improving my grouse population and I am not apposed to helping the state funding for the same purpose. But at the same time I am not going to back the state on this propasal just because something has to be done. 

the states plan is like putting air in tire with a leak. For the first mile everything looks and feels great. Second mile the truck pulls to the side. Third mile a noticable drop shows. Forth mile I am back where I started just this time I learn that quick patches do not work for the long haul. Just look good in the political world.


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

I always thought that the decline in the grouse population was due to the increase in the turkey population . At the start of the decline there were days that the dogs would go on point more on turkey than grouse and it has flurished from there. Which nothing will ever be done about the turkey population because of the money it generates . 
With the decline in Russia's economy this year the fur market here has tanked which relates to an increase in all predators across the board . ***** ,coyotes , and foxes .
I know I am old school but back in the day we were always told to shoot every hawk or owl that presented a shot and we did . Today you have to go no further than to drive on any main highway there are hawks sitting on every fence post , they are everywhere .
It doesn;t look good for the grouse .


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

C J Hughes said:


> I always thought that the decline in the grouse population was due to the increase in the turkey population.


Alot of this has to do with habitat as well. Turkeys like a more mature forest than grouse do, so when the forests start to mature turkeys move in, grouse move out.


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

Turkey's have more of an impact on the deer herd. Not that much on the grouse population. Although they do have some of the same diet(wild grape sumac,exc.) but they are commonly shared though out the woods.

I agree, on the owls hawk thing. Where I deer hunt the locals will shoot owls and hawks or at least that is what they say. I believe them. 

The grouse population really started to decline as the coyotes came. Early '90's
Give or take a little.

I would like to see the D.N.R. make an effort (a real effort!!!!!) in Establishing a healthy population of upland game birds. This is a pipe dream, but it would be nice.

It would establish Ohio as an excellent state with excellent hunting what ever the hunted game is.

1. Monster Bucks
2. Excellent Turkey
3. Plenty of Small Game.
4. North has Great Waterfowl 
5. Terrible quail horrible pheasant mediocre grouse


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## DarbyMan (Dec 11, 2005)

I know this will make some folks mad but.....

I think they should close the season for a few years. I love hunting grouse but I go elsewhere to do it. I wish OH had a huntable population but I really think that huntable populations are isolated. Let them recover naturally.

The problem with ODNR is that they only care about deer, turkey, and waterfowl because that's where the money is. Unfortunately I don't believe there will ever be quality populations of grouse, quail, and pheasent in this state.


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## duckman (Sep 18, 2004)

I enjoyed the 80's chasing grouse. I used to see a lot of tail back then grouse and otherwise.... lol 

I remember days (in the 80's) deer hunting when the woods sounded like tractors were starting all around you as the grouse drummed away.

There certainly seems to be a correlation between the rise in the number of turkey the decline of the grouse. I noticed this through the 90's as some of my best grouse haunts were taken over by turkey.

Pure conjecture but turkeys scratch up the side a hill in a hurry and I wonder how that impacted the ground nesting grouse.

No doubt the number of predators has exploded as well during the same time frame.

As you can tell by my user name I gave up running my Brittanies on grouse in Ohio. It just wasn't worth the effort any more.

I doubt that the change in the season will have significant impact without resolving the systemic issues noted by many here.

Most of all.... I am very disappointed that my kids won't have those opportunities!


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

DarbyMan said:


> I know this will make some folks mad but.....
> 
> I think they should close the season for a few years. I love hunting grouse but I go elsewhere to do it. I wish OH had a huntable population but I really think that huntable populations are isolated. Let them recover naturally.
> 
> The problem with O.D.N.R. is that they only care about deer, turkey, and waterfowl because that's where the money is. Unfortunately I don't believe there will ever be quality populations of grouse, quail, and pheasent in this state.



I agree with what Darbyman has posted. D.N.R. is about the money!! But on the other hand there was a D.N.R. meeting today that I wish that I had gone to it.
So I can't complain unless I put forth effort to express us as hunters OPINIONS. They don't have as many grouse hunters expressing interest in the grouse. They do have lots and lots of deer and turkey hunters expressing their thoughts. 

Us as upland game hunters need to call the O.D.N.R., WAYNE NATIONAL AND STATE OFFICIALS. We lack the #'S due to the decline of birds over the last 15 to 20 years. Other types of game people hunt all have large #'s. Our children will not know what it is like hunt wild birds with dogs other than preserves. ( We know they are not wild). It will take all of us and our friends to do something about it, or it will be gone in 10 years. 

Get on other sites upland sites or ohiosportman what ever, push it and get people to make calls. Send emails lets do something. I feel we are the last hope for any kind of future for upland game in Ohio.


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## Greydog (Mar 24, 2007)

This is the most disgusting thread I have read since becoming a member. To condone shooting hawks to help the grouse population is as ignorant and narrow minded as you can get. You should all be teleported (beam them up Scotty!) back to the 1930's where you can join your macho buddies on Hawk Mountain (google it) and shoot them by the hundreds. Line em up and have your pictures taken! I will not even try to explain the true value of hawks and other predators to a healthy ecosystem as you are obviously beyond hope. I can't believe the moderators haven't shut this down as this is akin to having forums on topics such as "Poaching Techniques" or maybe "Advanced Walleye Snagging". Get real.


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## onthewater (May 20, 2005)

Calm down, Greydog. Hawk hunting is never gonna happen.

Walter, thanks for enlightening me on West Virginia's season, I did not know that. They are worried about there Grouse numbers too, though.
I still stand by what I said about hunting Grouse, or any other bird or animal for that matter, whose numbers are in trouble, during the toughest month of the year for them to survive whether they are hunted or not.


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

Ha ha ha Graydog you are Hilarius. If people can't express there opinion what kind of forum would this be. There are people here that may not feel the way you do but does that mean they can't speak there mind and give there thoughts. Maybe you should go some where else. Where every one thinks the same dresses the same and eats the same kind food. Yea I'm busting your balls a little, but what I am trying to get across is it's OK to have a differant opionion.

Just don't have a heart attack when you read it. Be reasonable and voice your opinion. Don't ask for the thread to be closed. Get real.


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## Walter Adkins (May 20, 2004)

I am willing to shorten the season to two months if I thought that it would increase grouse populations. But think of this one simple thing. How many grouse hunters do you really know hunt grouse in Ohio? 

There just are not that many grouse hunters left. Pheasant and quail hunters have went down in numbers as well. We know that we are not the reason for the decline but we are being treated like we are. Because the state will not address the real reason. Think of a season where one could mount a hawk in full attack mode over a quail frozen by fear. If would could hunt them legally that would be an awesome mount. 

Ohio is one of the few states that offers the ability to do the grand slam of upland hunting. Yep, I just invented the grand slam of upland birds. I set this goal two years ago. In one day I take a wood cock, grouse, pheasant and a quail. I ask what other state does one have the chance to do that. 

Ohio needs to realize that tons of people travel through here to get to pheasant and grouse states. Those same people would stop half way if we had the foresight to increase our upland hunting. Talk dollars to the state and they may listen. So the same grouse I learned to love while following my dad and his setters around will be back.


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## RiverKatt (Aug 29, 2007)

Kentucky's season runs to the end of February just like Ohio's. I moved up here to Ohio from Kentucky back in the mid 90's. The grouse hunting down there was pathetic compared to here. We would hunt all day to flush 6-8 birds, if we were lucky. Up here I could do that in 3-4 hours every time I went out. I'd never seen anything like it. I've flushed two birds in the last two years. The number has slowly dropped every year since. And that's not because I'm a great shot either. I still hunt the same area's and to me they haven't changed that much over the years. Still as thick as ever and hard to get a shot at the bird. 
To me predators and turkeys seem to make it very hard on the grouse. A turkey will eat anything and everything it can get in it's mouth. And like everyone say's you can't drive anywhere without seeing a hawk on every other tree anymore. But we've had more than a few very wet springs in the last 5-7yrs. which make for a very poor hatch. I think that's harder on them than anything. 
I flew one bird in Ohio this year and didn't get a shot at it only heard it. But I went bird hunting at my brother-inlaws in Kentucky and we flew 7 birds in 2 hours, not counting reflushes. Best birding i been on in years. So there's still hope it can turn around..

Hey, Greydog don't you got a tree to hug somewhere.. why don't you go checkout a PETA site somewhere. I'll blast every hawk I get a chance too....


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

Since the grouse pop has tanked I have taken up raptor hunting . I have had the pleasure of eating some of the more aggressive fowl . Red tail meat is as white as grouse but alittle tougher than say cooper . The great horn has to be the best just for the size of the fowl it taste like chicken . You must remeber to always put a kevlar masked on your favorite bird dog before he goes out to fetch one of the great tasting raptors they can play heck on a dog with those talons .


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