# quick shotgun question



## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

im looking at a 410 mossberg 500 pump for my son for his first gun. it has a ventilated rib barrel 26 inches i think with a full choke. a friend of mine told me that you CANNOT shoot slugs through a full choke barrel, is this true ?? he said it may damage the gun or even be dangerous, i KNOW ive had several guns as i was growing up that had full choke barrels and ive shot slugs through them but i thought id ask. he also tried to tell me that you CANNOT shoot slugs through the newer mossbergs with the choke tubes, im KNOW hes wrong about the choke tube guns..... my nephew had a gun with the choke tubes and shot slugs through it, it actually shot better then the smooth bore slug barrel that he got for the gun. thanks for any advice !!


----------



## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

It's possible, but you SHOULD not shoot slugs through a full choke. It is possible to cause damage, even unseen damage at times. Same thing with tubes, the more open the better.


----------



## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

M.Magis said:


> It's possible, but you SHOULD not shoot slugs through a full choke. It is possible to cause damage, even unseen damage at times. Same thing with tubes, the more open the better.


I agree with M.Magis. Shooting a slug through a full choke is not a great thing to do. The restrictiveness of the choke will cause the slug not to fly true. Plus the slug cannot compact like lead shot and it could split the end of the barrel. You could try using a rifled choke tube, but it does very little in my opinion. 

I pasted this right from the Mossberg web page......
Slugs may be fired through choke tubes except those with X-Full constrictions or designated "Turkey tubes". Generally, open choke tube constrictions will produce more consistently accurate groups. The "Improved Cylinder" tube is a popular choice for slug shooting.


----------



## bronzebackyac (Apr 19, 2005)

I have always heard that you should not shoot slugs through a full choke as well. I don't know how old your son is, or how big he is, but may I suggest a 20 Ga. pump. The reason for this is that it is a much more capable gun and it can be used for deer and all small game with more ease. IMHO 410's are an experts gun. They require skill to become proficient with, and most kids will get discouraged if they shoot at something and it does not die. Especially if you plan on taking him deer hunting get the 20. Remington makes an 870 youth model 20ga that is inexpensive and great for kids.


----------



## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

i'm with the others.
though people have shot slugs through full tubes for years,the possibility of damage/injury is still there.
i've put many slugs through a .410 and 12 ga. model 12 without problems except for accuracy.but that's all i had at the time.generally the slug constricts in the choke which causes irratic groups.
and the .410,though it will kill deer,is not the best choice,except for fairly close shots.just not a lot of energy downrange.
i'd go with a more open choke in the .410 if you're set on it.or jump up to a 20 ga.


----------



## oxmos (Apr 13, 2005)

I believe it's just the 835 and 935 overbored barrels that you're not supposed to shoot slugs through.

From Mossberg's Website:
"Can I fire slugs through my 935 or 835® vent rib, Accu-Mag® choke tube barrel? 
No, 935 and 835® field barrels (those with a ventilated rib) are "overbored," and the extra inside diameter may cause the projectile to "wobble" producing unreliable accuracy. A projectile may wedge inside the barrel causing an obstruction. Obstructions of any kind can cause damage to the firearm resulting in damage to the barrel and/or personal injury to you or those around you. Dedicated fully rifled slug barrels are available for the 935 and 835® models. Other 935 and 835® Accu-Mag® choke tube notes: Buckshot and steel-shot loads are not recommended for use with an extra full turkey tube installed."


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

TC, your friend is wrong. It won't hurt a thing to fire a slug through that .410 bore, full choke or not.

There are no "high tech" sabot type slugs available in this gauge (actually a .410 is a caliber designation, not a gauge). For .410 the "Foster" style slugs hollow base slugs are the only game in town, and the soft lead "skirt" easily swages down in the forcing cone causing no problems at all. Even the solid base Brenneke .410 slugs with attached wad column can be fired safely from any size choke constriction.

The vast majority of all single barreled .410's have full chokes. In fact, I have never seen one that wasn't. The manufacturers of .410 slugs know this, and the rounds are designed with this fact in mind.

The only real problem you may have is tracking down all the deer he wounds with that .410

When you look at the ballistics of the darn things or the actual results I've seen first hand in the field, the little .410 is exposed for the sad, anemic crippler it really is.

The .410 slug weighs just 88 grains, is made from pure soft lead, and has all the sectional density of a wet ping-pong ball. Contrary to the published velocity figures (utter BS at 1,800fps), I have chronographed them at about 1,450 to 1,500 fps out of a 26" full choked barrel.

At that velocity, the energy figures are 431 [email protected] muzzle, 355 ft.lbs. @50 yards. About like a 9mm fired out of a 4.5" barrel, except that a jacketed expanding 9mm bullet offers much better penetration and performance. I've seen .410 slugs flatten out to the size of a quarter and not penetrate a center-punched rib. 

A 9X19mm is not an ethical choice for deer, but it would sure beat a .410 any day.

I told my nephew that if he couldn't handle a 20, he couldn't hunt deer. 

At 9 yoa, and 70 lbs, soaking wet, he too had a Mossburg pump (but in 20 ga.), headed out with me to the woods and never looked back.

With the right direction, kids can usually handle more than we think they can.

Good luck to you both, you sound like a good Father Brian.


----------



## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Mr. Frame brings up a good point, and I suspect he knows a thing or two more than me.  Every .410 I've ever seen has been full choke, and as he mentioned, the ammo manufacturers know this.
I also gotta agree with everyone that mentioned the .410 not being a good deer gun. A lot of deer have been killed with them, but a lot of been lost as well.


----------



## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

true,not many made with other chokes,but some.mostly for skeet shooting.but i don't think you'd wanna pay the price if you could find one.
the 2 major concerns as mentioned earlier,are effective power and range and innacurate "spitting" of slugs becuase of the swaging.


----------



## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Aside from using a .410 on deer, it IS NOT the best choice for a youngster's first gun. The 410 takes a fair amount of shooting expertise to use on rabbits and especially any flying game. A youth style 20 gauge is a far better choice and gives the youngster some room for error.


----------



## chase845 (Nov 2, 2005)

Yeah, go with a 10 gauge and buy 3.5 inch shells. He'll look like a bad ass. Besides, Chuck Norris wouldn't use a .410....


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

chase845 said:


> Yeah, go with a 10 gauge and buy 3.5 inch shells. He'll look like a bad ass. Besides, Chuck Norris wouldn't use a .410....


And your point is?.................C'mon you can tell us. 

Concentrate

Focus your thoughts on complete sentences. You'll feel better in the process Ace.


----------



## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

I pee farther than you.


----------



## noboatdave (May 5, 2004)

For a kids deer gun I don't think you can beat a muzzle loader. My son 7 year old used 60 grains black powder to kill a button buck. I had him shoot it out to 50 yards and I didn't even have to change the zero of the rifle.


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

ostbucks98 said:


> I pee farther than you.


So does my wife


----------



## chase845 (Nov 2, 2005)

.....my point was: there was no point, I was joking. How often do lines containing the name "Chuck Norris" actually have a point?


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

chase845 said:


> .....my point was: there was no point, I was joking. How often do lines containing the name "Chuck Norris" actually have a point?


Okay.....yeah.....I get it.


----------



## BassMasterFlash (Oct 3, 2006)

During a full moon....wolves turn into Chuck Norris.


----------



## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

As far as slugs going thru a full choke, it won't hurt a thing. However I agree with 
Shortdrift, a 20 ga.youth model may be a better choice.


----------



## chase845 (Nov 2, 2005)

HAHAHA... never joking around on here again..... (and that is the rest of my sentence/thought)


----------



## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks for the advice and a good laugh guys !!! i ended up buying the mossberg 500 20 ga youth with the 3 choke tubes. my son and wife and i will probably all use it some, we fired 20 rounds of shot through it today (my son fired 5) and he handled it well !!! i also shot 5 slugs through it and it was pretty accurate with the MOD choke from about 50 yds, i think it will make him and my wife a good gun when they go hunting next season !!!


----------



## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

tcba,
The choice for a pump is an age and maturity consideration. Sometimes a single shot is right for safety.
410 is great, I went with 20 for my son when he was 13. It was a bit much for him and he did not want to shoot it after a few tries that first year. At age 15, that 20 ga was not a problem for him.
As far as what ammunition is safe for the firearm, I would strongly recommend that you use the firearm manufacturers response as the only guidance to be taken. They do the tests, certify the results and are liable. Though liability doesn't mean much to me in catastrophic failure that disables a person or causes death.
A variety of rifled slugs are available...differing in diameter and powder load. And there are lots of sportsmen shooting slugs of a diameter that are larger than the full choke has clearance for. The result is high temp dissimilar metals scraping together with enough blast power behind it to explode the barrel. Repeated shots (at the range, in the field) increase the heat and the friction. Another factor is barrel fatigue. The results of barrel testing are associated with infinite fatigue life. Following the manufacturer's recommendation for ammunition is your assurance of infinite barrel life.


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

I really don't like stirring crap, but I hate seeing people in search of an actual informed opinion spoon fed heaping loads of it even more.



> A variety of rifled slugs are available...differing in diameter and powder load. And there are lots of sportsmen shooting slugs of a diameter that are larger than the full choke has clearance for. The result is high temp dissimilar metals scraping together with enough blast power behind it to explode the barrel. Repeated shots (at the range, in the field) increase the heat and the friction. Another factor is barrel fatigue. The results of barrel testing are associated with infinite fatigue life. Following the manufacturer's recommendation for ammunition is your assurance of infinite barrel life.


Utter nonsense, kinda funny, but nonsense none the less. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.


----------



## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

Shaun Frame said:


> Utter nonsense, kinda funny, but nonsense none the less. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.


just out of curiosity,what part of his post do you think is nonsense?


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

The part I quoted obviously.

The first two paragraphs are opinion which is perfectly sound, and just as valid as anyone else's. He should have stopped there.

BTW Congratulations Brian; I'm sure that shotgun will serve you well. Good luck to you and your family.


----------



## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

well,i have to agree that shooting slugs through a full choke barrel(or any other barrel not designed for slugs)isn't the safest thing to do.
barrel fatigue is a factor too.a few years back remington had a recall on barrels that failed due to metal fatique.it ended up with a class action law suit.
after that they had a big problem with the copper premier sabots and the rifled choke tubes.i experienced that problem 1st hand.
not wanting to argue at all,it's just that his post wasn't off base.


----------



## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

I EMAILED REMINGTON AND FEDERAL AMMO. I HAVE NOT HEARD BACK AS OF YET DUE TO THE HOLIDAYS. I, HOWEVER FOUND THE FOLLOWING BY DOING A SEARCH ON GOOGLE...

From the Charles Daly web page:
What chokes should I use to shoot buckshot, slugs, or steel shot from my Charles Daly shotgun? 
WARNING - CHOKE RESTRICTIONS: Buckshot and/or Slugs: Use an improved cylinder or less constrictive choke.

FROM A ARTICLE ON THE NET........
Getting The Most From Slug Guns 
By Cliff Wilson
If you shoot a sabot slug through a full choke barrel, there is a real risk that the barrel may damage, bulge or even split. I had three split barrel cases brought into the shop last fall. All were full choke, all shot sabots. On the other hand, your standard foster (or rifled slugs by another name) are made of soft lead, while your gun barrel is made of steel. In 35 years in the gun business, I have never seen a single incident where a barrel was blown or bulged by the standard forester rifled deer slugs ... regardless of the choke.

ON A BOX OF REMINGTON COPPER SOLIDS...........
Copper Solid Sabot Slug Remington
This ammo is designed for use in fully rifled barrels or rifle choke tubes only. Barrel damage or serious injury may occur if fired through fixed/screw in choke, modified or improved cylinder chokes

I GUESS THE EXPERTS KNOW ABSOLUTLY NOTHING ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. I STILL STAND ON MY EARLIER STATEMENT ON NOT SHOOTING SLUGS THROUGH A FULL CHOKE BARREL. WHY NOT ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION AND PREVENT AN INJURY THAT " POSSIBLE COULD " OCCUR.


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

If someone posted that chikens dip snuff, how many of you would go find one, lift up it's wings, and go looking for the can?

I see a few likely canditates in this thread...........Merry X-mas fellas


----------



## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

Toxic - I have only seen one case where a slug bulged a full choke barrel. The bulge was about .1 inches on the radius and about an inch long. It was a policeman's 12 ga Wingmaster. One event was enough of a demonstration. Not gonna recommend a slug through a full choke to anyone, least of all my son. And that's because of what happened to that Wingmaster and because I have never seen it as recommended by any gun manufacturer.

Shaun - my mind is open for info to the contrary. It sort of closes quickly to the insults though.


----------



## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

King, this is exactly what I am talking about. Why should anyone take a chance. Slug barrel are cheap, life is not. Chances are it may never happen, but like in your case it did. Luckly no one was injured. I asked the moderators to look into the personal attacks of Shaun Frame which I believe are a violation of the TOS. This site is to be informative and educational. The facts have been presented and should be taken for what it is, not to disclaim them.


----------



## Shaun Frame (Mar 27, 2006)

No insult was intended bud, I appoligize if it seemed that way, but I suffer misinformation badly. 

I'm not the most tactful person in the world, but I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.

Give me a call, I'd enjoy talking to you (or any of you chicken checkers, especially the toxic rat). 614-895-3562


----------



## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

Toxic said:


> I EMAILED REMINGTON AND FEDERAL AMMO. I HAVE NOT HEARD BACK AS OF YET DUE TO THE HOLIDAYS. I, HOWEVER FOUND THE FOLLOWING BY DOING A SEARCH ON GOOGLE...
> 
> From the Charles Daly web page:
> What chokes should I use to shoot buckshot, slugs, or steel shot from my Charles Daly shotgun?
> ...



you can quote countless articles from the internet... but i can assure you that Shaun has fired all of the aforementioned combinations of rounds/chokes that are being disputed; rather than relying on reading odd's and end's posted on the great sea they call the internet. (besides, didn't al gore invent it anyaway?)

experts huh? are you certain that the "experts" your quoting are telling the truth or have even fire the aforementioned combinations of rounds/chokes? i know that shaun has and would have no reason to tell otherwise.

so before you go grab more literature from the first two google results that you find; go out an do some field tests for your self. better yet, call Shaun and allow him to teach you something 


btw he is not susceptible to Polonium 210.


----------



## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

the point is though,why would anyone consider firing a slug through a barrel that wasn't designed slugs??
all it takes is one accident and you could be done!


----------



## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

now that we've all agreed to disagree,and the author has more than eneough info to make his own decision,i feel there's nothing more constructive that can be added,so it's time to close this .


----------

