# THOUGHTS ON GM



## dcool (Apr 14, 2004)

I was wondering about the thoughts of members here about all the GM plants closing, and moving a lot of their manufacturing to Mexico. I have been a long time owner of Chevy's and am having thoughts of never owning another. They are now the number 1 auto manufacturer in Mexico right now. They are building the Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain, And Chevy Silverado crew cab all in Mexico. What is next for the American worker? I think it is time that people stand up and say enough is enough. This is just my opinion! What are your thoughts?


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## floater99 (May 21, 2010)

X 2 AT LEAST Drive by any auto plant and they are ghost towns not to mention all the trickle down jobs these places created SAD FOR U S LABOR


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Sadness. I am actually driving to the Lordstown plant after work tonight to take pics before the last one rolls of the line tomorrow and the place becomes a ghost town. I really feel for the Lordstown area and the GM employees and their families.

I used to be a long time Chevy owner. That was all me and the family would buy and drive. Support the UAW and an American company. I finally got rid of my last Silverado last year after making the no more GM pledge several years ago due to quality issues after they spun off and bankrupted Delphi. Funny thing we just inherited a low mileage Impala a couple of weeks ago. Kind of wondering what to do with it.


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

I've been driving Subarus that were built in Lafayette, Indiana.


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

so much for the brilliant $780M bailout by our illustrious former prez, the only difference it made towards saving them was to delay the inevitable for 10 years, all that magnanimous gesture did was buy him some votes in 2012 ... I'd be interested to know how much depreciated GM stock the citizens of the USA still own from that boondoggle and how much we actually recouped from that "investment" ... I used to be a GM guy way back when but the last 2 GM cars I had were absolute junk, I'm thru with them ... it's hard to compete when the competition has people working for a couple days for what the UAW guys make in an hour, but Ford seems to by doing it ... not saying they shouldn't make a living, but it is what it is, those countries don't have unions looking out for them and could care less about the workers


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## chrisrf815 (Jul 6, 2014)

I don't think its right either, we as a country bailed them out and now there getting rid of jobs in our country. They must be doing something wrong if they can't afford to pay American workers compared to Toyota and BMW. Toyota and BMW build a lot of their cars here in America, the tundra, and the x3 and x5 are some examples. I noticed this at the autos show. The car description tags showed country of origin for most cars. I was shocked at some of country of origins. The Chevy sonic had a Chinese engine and was made in Korea.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

On December 19, 2008, President Bush agreed to a $24.9 billion bailout using TARP: $13.4 billion for GM, $5.5 billion for Chrysler, and $5 billion for GMAC. 


More info...

https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670

It will happen again. Once gasoline prices soar again (and it will) they will be whining and moaning they don't have any fuel efficient cars in their line up and the consumer isn't buying gas guzzler SUVs...


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

Its really as simple as this, cheap products are built with cheap labor. Why do you think traditional foreign car makers have started to build more and more in the USA? Better skilled labor and they don't have to ship their most popular vehicles here.

About 15 years ago, I was doing R&D work for lost foam applications for foundry work. At the time China had 26,000 foundries, the U.S. had 2,600. China had about 90% scrap compared to U.S.foundries having sub 10%. China would make all your widgets and do-hickies but any precision foundry work was still done in the U.S.A

I just bought a new truck. Prior to what GM did I was really considering buying a Colorado. After they pulled that garbage, my wife and me said we would never buy a GM vehicle. They want to build them in Mexico, let the Mexicans have them.


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## whal (Jul 11, 2012)

I bought GM products most of my life, nothing but GM. Now I will buy anything but GM. My last GM car was a 2008 Cadillac CTS4 and it was a disaster. By 50,000 miles both front wheel bearings needed changed, the transfer case seal needed changed, it was in the garage for electrical problems numerous times ( stabilitrac problems ) ,and if that wasn't enough it used a quart of oil every 300 miles on my last trip to Atlanta, yes that is not a misprint, every 300 miles.
The reason GM is closing plants is because the quality of their products terrible. 
That being said the best car I ever had was a 2004 Chevrolet Cavalier, built in Lordstown, Ohio. I just sold to a friend , it has 242,000 miles on it and is still going strong. The only thing I ever replaced was the alternator at 219,000 miles.
Go figure the top of the line Cadillac was junk and the bottom of the line Chevrolet Cavalier was a great car.
Poorly run company IMO. I will never own another GM product.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

dcool said:


> I was wondering about the thoughts of members here about all the GM plants closing, and moving a lot of their manufacturing to Mexico. I have been a long time owner of Chevy's and am having thoughts of never owning another. They are now the number 1 auto manufacturer in Mexico right now. They are building the Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain, And Chevy Silverado crew cab all in Mexico. What is next for the American worker? I think it is time that people stand up and say enough is enough. This is just my opinion! What are your thoughts?


trump doesn't want to build the wall to keep the Mexicans in Mexico but to keep all the Americans from going to Mexico in a few yrs when there are not enough good paying jobs left in America.

the American auto workers did kind off price there selves out of the market with 30+ dollars an hour jobs. but with the price of a new car or truck being out of the price range of most of us they could pay those wages and still make a good profit. but the auto industry here has to deal with high taxes plus satisfy the epa regulations. other countries have very low taxes, no epa, low wages, and lower cost materials. why not move to other countries where they can build at a fraction of the cost and still charge the same price as auto's built here? what our government needs to do is raise tariffs so high for American companies building out side the us to make it cost them more than it would cost to have there products built here. I blame our situation on greed and our government for allowing this to continue.
sherman


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

ford never took a penny of bail out money as far as i know......F150!!!


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Saugeye Tom said:


> ford never took a penny of bail out money as far as i know......F150!!!


Ford did not receive bailout money from TARP but they did receive a 5.9 BILLION dollar loan at the exact same time it was all going down.


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## snagless-1 (Oct 26, 2014)

Like Trump, said build it here send it there 25 percent plus tax,built there sent here 2 percent tax HELLO....


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

As far as opinions on GM as well......Your leaving a company who makes 3 vehicles in Mexico......yet they make the second most vehicles in the United States out of every manufacturer? North of 27 vehicles or more. I believe Ford has roughly 14? I feel just as bad with Lordstown and other plants closing but its business. You cant keep a failing production going and expect a company not to fail. 

http://time.com/4677817/american-cars-brands-manufacturing/


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Companies come and companies go....life goes on.
Once a company gets too big it takes a lot to keep it going.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

My last vehicle was an envoy.. before that a blazer.. I now own a Toyota 4Runner... its a beast and very reliable..

IMO the union and demand for $30 an hour jobs are the fault.. plus GM sucks as a company... bail out ring a bell?

I live in warren and know many people affected..


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

why take pride in American products made or assembled in another country ? Why is it that foreign car companies open plants in the US and build cars here but American companies move their production elsewhere ? None of it makes any sense unless you factor in unions. Not to open the old union debate but American auto makers who are unionized want to do more and more production elsewhere while foreign companies do very well employing non union workers in the US and those workers are for the most part happy with their situation. You cant tell me unions dont add significantly to the cost of building cars. At the same time , as GM and others show that unions really dont add anything to the quality of the products anymore either.


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

One factor about union costs, besides wages, are the benefits due to an aging workforce.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

In before the lock...…….


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I wrote off GM products over 10 years ago. Grandfather retired GM, wife from Michigan with 50% of her family working or retired from GM. We have never been brand specific. We bought brand new GM cars, garaged them in climate controlled garages, serviced them well....they were all disappointing! Watched her family have many issues...didn't really matter what model they all had quality issues. Too many to list. We personally had a Blazer that by the time it was 6 years old and only 80k miles it had so many problems nobody could fix it! Front end constantly loose (never hit anything with this car), brake problems, electrical issues, power window stopped working...just ridiculous. That was after a brand new 2002 model sedan only lasted to 133k miles at 6 years and was at the same point - I had spent 3 out of 4 weekends fixing it so it would even run!

The only GM vehicles her entire family has that have had any luck are pickup trucks.

We drive Japanese engineered vehicles manufactured in the US and Canada. Have 2 Lexus SUVs both going on 10 years old approaching 150k miles and never the first issue. Even all the bells and whistles work flawlessly. People get in and are very surprised at it's age because the fit & finish, ride, etc. is of such high quality. I just put 90k mile Michelin's on them both as they have another 100k miles+ I'm confident. Have a 2016 Ford 150 and have had good luck working these Fords (and Dodge) trucks hard the last 15 years. 

Half the wife's GM family now drives Toyotas and Hondas....never again GM!


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

Over the years I have bought several new GM vehicles, both cars and trucks. Before retirement I would run them up to about 175-200k and sell them and buy new. Only bad one I ever bought was a new 79 GMC 3/4 ton that actually broke down before I got it off the lot. Bought it in Columbus Oh and drove it home to Logan Wva and checked oil and actually had to add oil to get it to show on dip stick. I think I got like 20k miles out of that truck before I got rid of it. Never any major problems with any others. In 2016 I got wife a new Equinox and myself a new Silverado . In 18 I replaced her 2016 that we never had any kind of problem with a 2018. I have been seeing the new GMC Sierras and will probably replace the trouble free Silverado in next few months. I have been Union for near 60 years and will always buy Union over Nonunion if at all possible, plus I feel that GM makes a very good product..


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

At the end of the day you can thank Regan and Bush for NAFTA..... and cuss all the ones since for not abolishing it..


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## bbsoup (Apr 3, 2008)

21+ yrs at GM. Lost job in 2007. House upside down because of housing crash. Had to file bankruptcy, lost house. I have been staring at this screen for 20 min trying to figure out what to say. I could make some sort of comment regarding every reply so far in this thread. I could write a book. I guess all I want to say is that I, like 99.9% of all my coworkers, did my job every day to the best of my ability. I just think our nation needs to take a hard look at what kind of country we want to have. I probably won't reply to this thread again. I have been trying to move on from this for years. Continued debate about it does me no good. Wish you all the best.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

Like the saying goes "The only ones that can afford to buy a new vehicle are the ones building them".


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> At the end of the day you can thank Regan and Bush for NAFTA..... and cuss all the ones since for not abolishing it..


Check your facts, sir. Clinton signed NAFTA into law.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> We drive Japanese engineered vehicles manufactured in the US and Canada. Have 2 Lexus SUVs both going on 10 years old approaching 150k miles and never the first issue. Even all the bells and whistles work flawlessly. People get in and are very surprised at it's age because the fit & finish, ride, etc. is of such high quality. I just put 90k mile Michelin's on them both as they have another 100k miles+ I'm confident. Have a 2016 Ford 150 and have had good luck working these Fords (and Dodge) trucks hard the last 15 years.
> 
> Half the wife's GM family now drives Toyotas and Hondas....never again GM!


https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/ans...lexus-vehicles-assembled-for-the-u.s.-market?


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

ress said:


> Like the saying goes "The only ones that can afford to buy a new vehicle are the ones building them".


I dunno about that...I've on bought 2 used cars since the 70's and I was a (non-union) welder & my wife did secretarial work back then. My buddy buys all new and he was a machinist. Grated they didn't all have all the bells and whistles but they were new. You just have to plan and budget for them if that's what you want.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

scum frog - both of mine (Gen 2) were assembled in Ontario; parts are scattered like most, however, the engine and components are built in the Alabama (Toyota) plant and a lot of component parts built in Georgia. Nobody will ever own an "American" vehicle any more. Between the Honda's and these Lexus SUV's our family made the decision to drive Japanese engineering manufactured and assembled over here....just put gas/oil in them and drive trouble free for years and years! When we tire of these I'll be looking at Lexus again.


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## guppygill (May 8, 2004)

Couple of things: I know many union people, and several say under their breath it’s unions faults. Another thing, more of this will happen because the younger generation (and I am not bashing the younger generation) , but they do not care about unions. I know some people that say “union only”, to me that’s ok but, it is outdated thinking. The US is changing, hate to say it, we need to change with it.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

In my humble opinion...I've worked union and non union shops....the union shops were over paid and lazy......put a piece on the grinder and cut .0005 a pass for 3 days ...a 3 hour job....


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

The topic of 'buy American' always makes me grin especially when it comes to the automotive industry.
Today 'Buy American' in the automotive industry doesn't even remotely resemble what it used to mean.
'Buy American and assembled in America is not the same thing!

Think you're 'buying American' when you buy a GM or Ford?
You're not...and haven't been for many years.
Think you're buying American when you buy a Harley...you're not. Engine bearings in Harley's been coming from Japan for years.

You might be buying a vehicle assembled here but hundreds of parts, including hard engine and tranny parts haven't been made here in years.
The Ford Focus is about as American as a bowl of kimchi. GM has a few of their own models as well.

Here's a few enlightening articles:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgor...d-the-most-american-cars-and-trucks-for-2017/

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/how-american-is-your-car

There's plenty more articles out there for the interested.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

fastwater said:


> The topic of 'buy American' always makes me grin especially when it comes to the automotive industry.
> Today 'Buy American' in the automotive industry doesn't even remotely resemble what it used to mean.
> 'Buy American and assembled in America is not the same thing!
> 
> ...


Commie


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Saugeye Tom said:


> Commie


 Thanks!!!
My Subaru that was assembled in Indiana is as much 'made in the USA' as many Fords and GMs today.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Sadly, seems to be the trend:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ction-of-electric-suv-from-michigan-to-mexico

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-40345592


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## pitdweller (Sep 16, 2004)

The last two GM vehicles I owned were assembled in canada, still have the 93 silverado, 197,000 miles other than brakes and tires, I had to have fuel tank replaced. I wonder how Canada feels about the move.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

DP


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> At the end of the day you can thank Regan and Bush for NAFTA..... and cuss all the ones since for not abolishing it..





cincinnati said:


> Check your facts, sir. Clinton signed NAFTA into law.


You beat me to it. Clinton brought NAFTA across the finish line.



Saugeye Tom said:


> In my humble opinion...I've worked union and non union shops....the union shops were over paid and lazy......put a piece on the grinder and cut .0005 a pass for 3 days ...a 3 hour job....


That was my exact experience. I'm not saying that's the case with Lordstown today, but it was back then! In the early 70's I got hired at US Steel's McDonald Mills. My first day there, I'm assigned to a labor gang cleaning up jack hammered brick flooring that the masons are going to replace. There were 3 of us in the gang along with a fat ass gang leader with BO and baloney breath! A real pig!

Our job was to shovel this debris into wheelbarrows and dump it into rail cars parked in a depressed track. Okay! Easy peasy! I grabbed a shovel and started working. Next thing I know, the fat pig is in my face! "What're you tryin' ta do! Make me look bad?! Dis is a tree day job!" I could have done it myself in one day!

This is the attitude of "screw the people who are paying you" that led to what was called "The Lordstown Syndrome!" There were TV specials about it. I knew a guy who worked there back then. He told me there were guys shooting up heroin in the locker room before going out on the line! I drove a beer truck on deliveries, and worked the Lordstown area for a while. The guys would get out at lunch time, hit these party shops, and just get blasted before going back to work.



fastwater said:


> The topic of 'buy American' always makes me grin especially when it comes to the automotive industry.
> Today 'Buy American' in the automotive industry doesn't even remotely resemble what it used to mean.
> 'Buy American and assembled in America is not the same thing!
> 
> ...


I read some time ago that the vehicle with the highest percentage of "domestic content", meaning parts made in the U.S., was a Toyota! I don't know if that's still the case, but consider this. Don't you think that Japanese, Korean, and German auto workers griped when their companies shipped work here?


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## overcheck (Dec 13, 2010)

Scum_Frog said:


> https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8025/~/where-are-lexus-vehicles-assembled-for-the-u.s.-market?


Got my Silverado new in 2003 best truck ever. Currently has five hundred twelve thousand miles. Same 4.8 v8 same tranny Still has factory muffler and front end. Only done minor maintenance new brake lines last week was the most costly repair ever done. GM is making it hard for me to buy another when they close good union made in U.S.A. shops.


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## overcheck (Dec 13, 2010)

Scum_Frog said:


> https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8025/~/where-are-lexus-vehicles-assembled-for-the-u.s.-market?


Got my Silverado new in 2003 best truck ever. Currently has five hundred twelve thousand miles. Same 4.8 v8 same tranny Still has factory muffler and front end. Only done minor maintenance new brake lines last week was the most costly repair ever done. GM is making it hard for me to buy another when they close good union made in U.S.A. shops.


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## KPI (Jun 4, 2011)

I would blame the union I mean some unions are good but if your not pulling your weight you still get rewarded I think it is funny when a union guy can not do something because it is out of his work scope total bs just get the job done as efficiently as you can then start the next thing just my thoughts 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

cincinnati said:


> Check your facts, sir. Clinton signed NAFTA into law.


That’s not what I said... as I said, you can thank the Regan administration for it...
https://www.heritage.org/trade/repo...rade-agreement-ronald-reagans-vision-realized


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> At the end of the day you can thank Regan and Bush for NAFTA..... and cuss all the ones since for not abolishing it..


Reagan did not sign NAFTA. It was Slick Willy Clinton that signed it into law. It was signed in 1992 and then took effect in 1994. Reagan was President 1980 - 1988. 
Clinton was a NWO guy. He was not a protect America guy.


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## dcool (Apr 14, 2004)

Like I said at the top of this thread, I have been a long time GM owner. That being said, my wife has been looking for a new vehicle and liked the new Chevy Blazer. We went and looked at one and found out they are built in Mexico with a price tag of $50,000. Going to be done with GM and start looking at vehicles that are at least made here in the USA. That way I can feel good that I am keeping another American working. Glad that I am not the only one that feels this way.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

dcool said:


> Like I said at the top of this thread, I have been a long time GM owner. That being said, my wife has been looking for a new vehicle and liked the new Chevy Blazer. We went and looked at one and found out they are built in Mexico with a price tag of $50,000. Going to be done with GM and *start looking at vehicles that are at least made here in the USA*. That way I can feel good that I am keeping another American working. Glad that I am not the only one that feels this way.


dcool...with respect...You surely must mean *assembled* in the USA.
And 'assembled in America' *does NOT equate to* 'made in America'!

Again, you will NOT find a vehicle of any make in which all components are made in the USA.
The very best you can do at this stage of the game for that 'feel good' feeling is to find out what vehicle has the least amount of foreign made parts and is also assembled here.
It's that way even in the heavy semi truck industry today. Doesn't matter if it's GM,Ford, Kenworth etc etc. They too have parts made in Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuala etc.
That's the reason for this post earlier:
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/how-american-is-your-car


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

Lets look at this. GM moveing to Mexico. Labor - cheaper, Does mexico have saftey standards that the U. S. does, I do not think so. Does mexico have the polluant standers that the U. S. does, I do not think so. Union wages and benifits, do not think for one minute that Mgt. will give the ranking file some thing and Mgt. not have it. Mgt. has that and more. I, put 35 years in the same bulding, but with 4 differnt companys. I, have seen Mgt. run a company in the ground. Big or small busness it all matters what mgt. does. The ranking file can put out the best product, but it all depends on mgt. Some one mention Ford. As far as I know Ford is still family run. There is a big differnce in the way Mgt. thinks.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Great thing about this country is you can buy whatever you want.


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## glasseyes (Jan 28, 2012)

wife and i have been buying Toyota for over 20 years, me the truck and her car. traded in a couple times , just to trade up, never had an issue with either. i do not plan on changing now.


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## Jim white (Feb 19, 2018)

There is no loyalty anymore in this country. management it's all about the O Mighty Dollar lol that's what makes the world go round right.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

Jim white said:


> There is no loyalty anymore in this country. management it's all about the O Mighty Dollar lol that's what makes the world go round right.


Its called American Greed!! You can kick, screem, holler..but you are not going to change it!!Anything you pick up and put on is made overseas..All the stuff I use is made in China, Vietnam, etc..Decoy makers for example..deeks made in China sent back here for 3bucks apiece and sold for 400 bucks a dozen, really!! Pizzes ya off, but what are you gonna do? Will come back and bite them latter.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

unions was needed when they began. workers were under paid and conditions were deplorable at the inception of unions. but with time and larger companies those unions went to far. I worked union at small factories which made less than half of what an auto worker made. and even as a union worker I still did the job I was told to do. if they needed me in shipping they just shut my job down and moved me to shipping. but the auto workers had a single job to do because over time there unions made it that way. today and for a long time now non union workers are treated as good or better than some union shops.



crappiedude said:


> I dunno about that...I've on bought 2 used cars since the 70's and I was a (non-union) welder & my wife did secretarial work back then. My buddy buys all new and he was a machinist. Grated they didn't all have all the bells and whistles but they were new. You just have to plan and budget for them if that's what you want.


yes skilled trade workers such as welders machinists an such with spouses working at good paying jobs can still afford to buy new. but new is out of the picture for most average incomes in this country. when we make 10.00 or 12.00 an hour there is no amount of planning or budgeting that will allow us to make payments on a 30,000.00 to 60,000.00 auto. even making 20.00 an hour without our spouses working and making good money its still hard to make a big house payment or pay rent and eat good buy cloths and just live and still own a new car much less have a life doing the things we love to do.
sherman


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

I don't care much about labels. Make a quality product, and I'll buy it. I don't care who made it. I am done paying good money for crap that doesn't last. 

My next vehicle will probably be a 2001 Toyota 4Runner. They're basically bullet proof. If I can find one owned by an old man that kept it in a garage and didn't put more than 150k on it, I'd be set.


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## fishless (Sep 18, 2014)

crittergitter said:


> I don't care much about labels. Make a quality product, and I'll buy it. I don't care who made it. I am done paying good money for crap that doesn't last.
> 
> My next vehicle will probably be a 2001 Toyota 4Runner. They're basically bullet proof. If I can find one owned by an old man that kept it in a garage and didn't put more than 150k on it, I'd be set.


I bought a 2006 Toyota Tacoma in 2006.At that time it was all about buying american made.I looked at Ford and Chevy had a Ford at the time.Toyota truck was made in California and was more american made than Ford or Chevy.I still have it and am happy I bought it


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

sherman51 said:


> yes skilled trade workers such as welders machinists an such with spouses working at good paying jobs can still afford to buy new. but new is out of the picture for most average incomes in this country. when we make 10.00 or 12.00 an hour there is no amount of planning or budgeting that will allow us to make payments on a 30,000.00 to 60,000.00 auto.


That's the catch Sherm...I wasn't "skilled labor". I was a bomb jockey when I got out of the Air Force, not much need for that once I came home. I picked up welding on my own. We (my wife & I) were definitely at the bottom of the earnings curve. However we didn't have a big fancy home, we had a very modest food budget and ALWAYS lived below our means. By no means were our vehicles equivalent to a $30k or $60k vehicle, not even close. They were stripped down, basic models but they were new. Even those we had to save for. I just like new.
I agree with BobK, go buy whatever you want from whomever you want. All this buy American when it comes to autos stuff is silly IMO. The world had changed a lot in the last 50 years and so has the auto industry. It's never going back...thank God.


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## mas5588 (Apr 15, 2012)

Mother-in-law and brother-in-law live close enough you can see the lights of the plant in the wintertime. Father-in-law drove for Cassens before he passed away. It's a big deal for the community. Many friends and acquaintances with a tough row to hoe. 

I'm no big CNN fan, but they have a few articles on their site about Lordstown. Decent reads.


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

GM's Norwood assembly was notorious for labor issues & absenteeism. When GM announced the plant's closing in late '86, Senator Metzenbaum paid a visit to support the workers & potentially save the plant. He arrived on a Monday AM & there weren't even enough workers present to start the line.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

cincinnati said:


> GM's Norwood assembly was notorious for labor issues & absenteeism


That place was a joke. I drove a truck for the steel company I worked for back then. I delivered a job late one Friday "cause they had to have it" to install it over the weekend. Monday morning my boss asked me if I made the delivery because no one could find it. I said "yeah I did but the guy on the fork lift said "I'm not working this weekend" and dumped the whole order in a scrap hopper". My boss told the buyer at GM and the guy placed a 2nd order for the same material and asked to deliver it on Wednesday so they could install it BEFORE the weekend. He said it was easier to just rebuy it than to fight with the union guys.
I'm not for or against unions but it's a shame, they ruined that plant.


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

I knew a lot of guys that worked at the GM plant in Mansfield. Had one buddy tell me he made 90,000 plus one year and this was in 82-85 maybe? A line worker! Then he said he slept or played cards 8 out of the 10-12 hr days. Them ole boys priced themselves out of a job. That’s exactly what happened. Alot would take a lay-off when available and make just as much money as if they were working.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

In the 80's and early 90's the US auto makers had to cut cost because the Honda's and Toyota's and Datsun's were threatening to take the sales lead. Most suppliers had to either loose money on their automotive products or move the manufacturing to Mexico or China to keep their prices low. The big 3 demanded lower cost for their parts or loose the business with them. Back in those days having a supply rating from the big 3 meant you had a advantage landing new business from other companies. To be diversified was the key. Plastic (vinyl) made up a huge part of the car, and still does, so if you had molds from the manufacturer you had a obligation to meet their price requirements. If not and things could not be worked out they would show up and pull their molds off the production line. It was an easy decision to make moving your automotive section to Mexico-China. If you wanted the prestige of being a parts supplier to a big 3 company and reaping the rewards,,,well..........


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## doegirl (Feb 24, 2005)

sherman51 said:


> unions was needed when they began. workers were under paid and conditions were deplorable at the inception of unions. but with time and larger companies those unions went to far. I worked union at small factories which made less than half of what an auto worker made. and even as a union worker I still did the job I was told to do. if they needed me in shipping they just shut my job down and moved me to shipping. but the auto workers had a single job to do because over time there unions made it that way. today and for a long time now non union workers are treated as good or better than some union shops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point about wages. Wages have been stagnate for quite some time and have not remotely kept up with inflation. Minimum wage should be around $21/hour to account for inflation. It's disheartening to see the mean spirited diatribe against low income workers. All the while a CEO, making 400X that of some schmuck on the assembly line, is busy having his nails painted (yes, that's a thing) by his favorite escort girl/guy. That person escapes the criticism he very well deserves.
When the economic bottom fell out in 2008, Bush bailed out companies that should have been left for dead. Too big to fail, remember that? So here we are, doling out welfare (in the form of tax breaks) to billion dollar entities that have no real interest other than remaining billion dollar entities. While we pick on some dude making a pittance turning to drugs/alcohol to cope or may not have best work ethic (shocking, wonder why that is).


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

Interesting.


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## Brahmabull71 (Jul 30, 2014)

When I comment on OGF, I like it to be meaningful, informative and factual not based on emotion or malice. We have enough of the later in this world and I try to stay away from it, even to the point of ‘ignoring’ certain folks on here. All that being said, I’ve had the opportunity to work for and with both union and non-union, American and foreign and even studied a large part of my scholastic career at The Ohio State University in Labor Economics.

My senior year at OSU, we had to choose a company for a project and ‘argue’ why / why not we felt that company valued its labor force. I ended up choosing Toyota and here’s why. My uncle worked for GM for 28 years, my great uncle was a lead mechanical engineer for Chrysler for 30+. My entire family was ‘Big 3’ only and I planned on being the same. Without making this post any more of a novel, I bought 3 GM vehicles in a row that were the absolute biggest POS’s and wasn’t happy. I felt almost obligated on the premis of the ‘buy American’ guilt trip and the pressure of my family and heritage almost demanded I stay such. Well, I was newly married, bought a house, was working 40+ and taking a full courseload 15-20 hrs a quarter at OSU. Four days a week I was busting my hump 17-18 hours a day. No one in my immediate family had gone to college and for some reason I felt it important to do so and pay all of my own way. Just like many of you, hard work, determination and GRIT is what got me through. It damn sure wasn’t my brains!

Back to my OSU project...I chose Toyota so that I could prove to myself and EVERYONE else just how bad ‘they’ were hurting ‘us.’ Well guess what, I completely went the other way! After understanding the FACTS, I soon realized I was actually asking questions to myself about “why don’t “we” (Big 3 of the good ole USA) do it that way? That makes more sense!” Soon I found myself thinking more about _kaizen _and other Eastern principles and styles of management. I was soon thrown into a leadership management role for a local construction company where I was able to employ some of this Eastern style management philosophy and it worked! Cut waste, increase accountability and empower field workers to make sound decisions they thought were right for the situation. It improved moral almost immediately.

I went on to graduate and my present to myself was a brand new 2010 Toyota Tundra Crewmax Limited. I thought my wife was going to kill me...fact is she almost did! Well guess what, I still have and drive this truck every single day. It has nearly 165,000 miles 9 years later and looks absolutely beautiful (to me) still. Absolutely no mechanical issues at all. We have since owned 3 brand new Toyota’s and 1 Honda and couldn’t be happier with any of our decisions.

Why do I tell you this? Because I want to be considered an objective independent thinker, not voting a party line, or buying a substandard product because it ‘feels good.’ I want the best and I want to push those around me to question and challenge the status quo and demand _KAIZEN_ (continuous improvement) to the point we force American companies to have pride in their products again and make workers feel empowered enough to do it without all the middle management BS and overhead. The US thinks vertically while Eastern cultures manage horizontally holding each person accountable and their input valuable. This is how I’ve had the opportunity to lead and will continue to do so because it works. Unions have become what they sought to abolish and large companies left unchecked will breed greed and corruption all while on the backs of its workers. I would love to ‘feel good’ about buying a GM product, but until they give me a reason why they offer a superior product at a fair value, then I will save my money and buy Toyota / Honda. I think we Americans should demand this and take pride in what we produce, NOT excuses! Facts are, many young Americans do not have brand loyalty, but want things that are practical and operational. It’s funny to me how out of touch the Big 3 really are with the concept of brand loyalty. To me, they have ran that horse in the ground and now are struggling to keep up in a changing global world / economy.

https://b2b.autotrader.com/oem/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Millennials-Next-Gen-Car-Buyer.pdf

I really wish I felt confident enough to buy a new GM, but the fact is I don’t!


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

Well said.... So True


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

For those of you who still read books, this is a great read on the demise of American manufacturing over the last 50 years. Several GM examples are presented.
Also available at your local library.


Tailspin: The People and Forces Behind America's Fifty-Year Fall--and Those Fighting to Reverse It by Steven Brill


https://www.amazon.com/Tailspin-Americas-Fifty-Year-Fall-Fighting/dp/1524731633


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

cincinnati said:


> Interesting.


Count to 10 and move on.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

bobk said:


> Count to 10 and move on.


All good things must come to an end!!The way this country is changing, there will be a lot more changes that we will hate, take a deep breath and move on


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> At the end of the day you can thank Regan and Bush for NAFTA..... and cuss all the ones since for not abolishing it..


Ah,Clinton signed NAFTA.


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

Lake Boat said:


> Ah,Clinton signed NAFTA.


Sorry,I just saw the other post stating the same thing.


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

Again... I didn’t say regan signed it.. but you can thank him for it. Clinton just stole the plan from him to help him get elected. Regan initiated in 1980 when he signed a deal with Mexico.


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

Lake Boat said:


> Ah,Clinton signed NAFTA.


I had the same reply earlier. But lets not also forget that the house and senate were lead also by the Dems. But with that said the house Reps voted for it more then the Dems did. 132 Reps and 102 Dems voted for it in the house. While 200 on both sides voted against it. On the senate side 34 Reps and 27 Dems voted for it. While 38 on both side voted against it. Like I said the house and senate were led by the Dems from 92 - 94 when it was voted on and signed. So it was by far one of the most bi-partisans laws ever passed. But I am not saying that bi-partisan legislation is a good thing. So to me that says that both sides have plenty to take blame in it. 
I am not savvy enough to know the good and the bad things that came from the NAFTA law to make an educated remark about the effects that it has had on the country. So I will leave that up to the experts on this site. lol


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> Again... I didn’t say regan signed it.. but you can thank him for it. Clinton just stole the plan from him to help him get elected. Regan initiated in 1980 when he signed a deal with Mexico.


What you say may be true. But no one is going to give credit or blame Reagan for something that didn't come into law when he was President. And it didn't become law until 6 years after he was President. So to blame him is kind of silly really. JMO Not meant to bash you for your comments. Sorry if took that way.


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

All about the final blow to the organized trades, they want to get fat while paying the workers nothing. Simple as that.


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

Popspastime said:


> All about the final blow to the organized trades, they want to get fat while paying the workers nothing. Simple as that.


 I think you hit the nail on the head...


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

I was talking about this with my dad yesterday. He said there used to be a running joke about vehicles that came out of Lordstown. He said if you got a vehicle made in Lordstown, make sure it was built on a Wednesday. It took em until Wednesday to recover from the weekend and by Thursday the were getting ready for the weekend. This is from a guy who never had any brand loyalty, so it wasn't like he was a Ford guy bashing GM. This is also something that went back to the late 70s/early 80s. He also isn't anti-union, since he was union president in the factory he worked in during the 70s. Just some insight I guess on the feelings of GM back 40+ years ago.


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

Bluewalleye said:


> I had the same reply earlier. But lets not also forget that the house and senate were lead also by the Dems. But with that said the house Reps voted for it more then the Dems did. 132 Reps and 102 Dems voted for it in the house. While 200 on both sides voted against it. On the senate side 34 Reps and 27 Dems voted for it. While 38 on both side voted against it. Like I said the house and senate were led by the Dems from 92 - 94 when it was voted on and signed. So it was by far one of the most bi-partisans laws ever passed. But I am not saying that bi-partisan legislation is a good thing. So to me that says that both sides have plenty to take blame in it.
> I am not savvy enough to know the good and the bad things that came from the NAFTA law to make an educated remark about the effects that it has had on the country. So I will leave that up to the experts on this site. lol


Thanks for all the info... I could care less how many voted for it. All I know is when Regan signed the deal in 1980 our shop lost about 13 jobs to Mexico overnight. They even took the dies.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

I had a career in engineering and sales for forty years and over that time span I had opportunity's to work with the Automotive, Steel and Chemical Industry's. I sold and serviced capital equipment to all the previously mentioned companys. Working in the automotive industry at a plant level was an interesting experience. Without going into a lot of details i will note that i wasn't allowed to work on or assist the labor force in any way which resulted in extensive downtime. The same was true to some extent in the steel industry.
I never encountered this in the chemical industry. 
Late in my career I was asked to visit and assist a Honda automotive plant here in Ohio. What an eye opener! I was accompanied by a plant Engineer, a Plant Supervisor and Plant Labor. I was advised to assist in any way with anyone that could help solve or elimate the current problem. I left the plant with a better understanding as to why the Honda had the reputation it was developing and the inroads being made in our automotive industry. 
I was originally a GM loyal customer until I was starting my sales career and need a reliable vehicle and GM did not meet my needs.
Switched to Ford with better but not the best results. Retired and bought Ford F150 to serve my hunting and fishing requirements with good results. Had to give up hunting for health reasons and decided to downsize. 
Checked out all the SUV's and decided on KIA. 
_*Best vehicle I have ever owned*_. Nuff said.


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## Eye Licker (Apr 10, 2012)

My first car I ever bought was a brand new 1976 Olds STARFIRE HATCHBACK.After 2 years the doors started falling off.I took it to the body shop and asked why the doors were falling off and he told me "that's what they were designed to do"Never bought another American car after that.


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> Thanks for all the info... I could care less how many voted for it. All I know is when Regan signed the deal in 1980 our shop lost about 13 jobs to Mexico overnight. They even took the dies.


What law exactly did Reagan sign that made your shop lose 13 jobs over night? And in what year did he sign it?


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## cheezemm2 (Apr 7, 2004)

There is no reasonable expectation for companies to produce in environments that increase their COGS. Capitalism is great, problem is, it exists by exploiting someone, always has, always will. It's the best system out there, but it's far from perfect. For all the comments about cars, if you take a real hard look at the things we use everyday and the raw materials that go into them, you'll get a real good idea about how interconnected the world is now.


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

Bluewalleye said:


> What law exactly did Reagan sign that made your shop lose 13 jobs over night? And in what year did he sign it?


Reagan didn't sign anything in 1980 because he didn't take office until 1981!


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

cincinnati said:


> Reagan didn't sign anything in 1980 because he didn't take office until 1981!


You and I know that, but STRONGPERSUADER keeps saying that this is Reagans fault. I just want to know the law that Reagan signed to make all this happen. And that it started in 1980. like you said he wasn't even President until 1981.


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## backfar (Sep 24, 2014)

Last gm products i owned were 2000 silverado and a 2006 buick ranier. i will never buy a gm product again. Thats my thoughts. GM's quality problems and recalls is why they packed up and moved to mexico..


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

bbsoup said:


> 21+ yrs at GM. Lost job in 2007. House upside down because of housing crash. Had to file bankruptcy, lost house. I have been staring at this screen for 20 min trying to figure out what to say. I could make some sort of comment regarding every reply so far in this thread. I could write a book. I guess all I want to say is that I, like 99.9% of all my coworkers, did my job every day to the best of my ability. I just think our nation needs to take a hard look at what kind of country we want to have. I probably won't reply to this thread again. I have been trying to move on from this for years. Continued debate about it does me no good. Wish you all the best.


Sorry about what happened to you.Were you able to transfer somewhere?Thats a lot of years to give up.I worked in 5 different plants and moved twice.It was hard at the time but when I look back Im glad I did.Retired in 08,and havnt looked back.Hope things worked out for you.


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

Bluewalleye said:


> You and I know that, but STRONGPERSUADER keeps saying that this is Reagans fault. I just want to know the law that Reagan signed to make all this happen. And that it started in 1980. like you said he wasn't even President until 1981.


No you guys are correct, Regan proposed a free trade agreement with Mexico during his campaign in 80. Clinton ran with it but it was nothing like Regan proposed. I stand corrected.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> No you guys are correct, Regan proposed a free trade agreement with Mexico during his campaign in 80. Clinton ran with it but it was nothing like Regan proposed. I stand corrected.


I mean who cares, that was almost 40 years ago. Anyone who's interested can google it.
I thought the thread was about GM...just sayin.


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> No you guys are correct, Regan proposed a free trade agreement with Mexico during his campaign in 80. Clinton ran with it but it was nothing like Regan proposed. I stand corrected.


Fair enough. I was just wondering cause you seemed so sure of it. Maybe I had missed something. Like I said before, both sides had there hands in the cookie jar on this one.


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## snagless-1 (Oct 26, 2014)

It's all about money[greed].Why pay am American worker 30-35 dollars an hour,when you can pay Mexican worker 3.00 an hour.No E.P.A. no regulations no OSHA,hit them where it count's.Build it in Mexico send it here 25 % TAX........HEY someone already said that ,I wonder who......Potus.


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

as far as I can see everyone feels sorry for the workers losing their jobs I do also but I did not see one post that anyone had bought a chevy cruz and because of lacking sales of sedans that's why lordstown is closing just like ford they are going to quit making sedans . as far as unions go they gave people a 40 hr workweek overtime pay vacations retirement and medical plans when unions go by the wayside so will those benefits . if you look at the lowest pay in states the top 10 lowest are all right to work states and they also have the highest wealth gap. if not for unions I would probably still be working instead of retired and I rather be retired and fishing .


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## JamesF (May 20, 2016)

I for one will not buy another GM product, all 3 I've owned had engine issues. I worked in the steel industry for 43 years, my union,at first was great. As time passed they fell into the same bed as the companies. Four bankruptcies (failed). Many extended layoffs, and 2 plant closures. The last was permanent. 
It is political business, there is no other way to put it. Now! Can we get back to creating Monopolies .


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

steelhead steve said:


> as far as I can see everyone feels sorry for the workers losing their jobs I do also but I did not see one post that anyone had bought a chevy cruz and because of lacking sales of sedans that's why lordstown is closing just like ford they are going to quit making sedans . as far as unions go they gave people a 40 hr workweek overtime pay vacations retirement and medical plans when unions go by the wayside so will those benefits . if you look at the lowest pay in states the top 10 lowest are all right to work states and they also have the highest wealth gap. if not for unions I would probably still be working instead of retired and I rather be retired and fishing .


Aman , Brother...


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## Reel N Time (Dec 6, 2018)

Ever think about why BMW, Honda, Toyota etc. Invest in new plants in the USA and not so much in Mexico? Quality? Costs $$$$$ ? Unions? Just saying.


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## bajuski (Apr 9, 2004)

I can't see how the big three are even surviving. The new companies starting up like Nissan, Honda, BMW etc have such an advantage over our established companies like GM, NO RETIREES. That alone is a huge cost to GM. Pensions and Healthcare are killing them let alone the tax breaks etc the states give the upstarts to lure the new companies! It almost feels like we're trying kill the big three in this political climate, it's not the unions!


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

bajuski said:


> It almost feels like we're trying kill the big three in this political climate, it's not the unions!


I hate to say it, but it is very much the unions. Just for the record, I am part of a union and on our executive committee. The problem is that most unions only work for the worst workers. It's always the person who shows up drunk/high, is constantly late, can't do their job, etc. that the union fights for. Endless time and money are wasted on workers who should have been fired. Instead, grievances are filed and sub-par works are kept because "they are in the union". That is not what unions were supposed to be about, but thats what they have turned into.


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## 68bucks (Aug 17, 2013)

The plant closing is just a matter of people not buying their product, they don't make what people want. The problem I have is so so many people on this thread talking about buying American cars. The problem is far deeper than cars. How many people that work at that plant stop at places like Harbor Frieght and buy their junk Chinese tools cause they're cheap? Then hit Walmart to buy cheap Chinese clothes and work boots? What about all those plants that are now gone? People want to make a big deal out of buying American made cars but don't think twice about all they spend on other foreign made goods. I bet over time we spend far more money and affect far more jobs with all the stuff we buy beside vehicles. So the next time you buy something please try to buy American or this trend will only continue.


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> I hate to say it, but it is very much the unions. Just for the record, I am part of a union and on our executive committee. The problem is that most unions only work for the worst workers. It's always the person who shows up drunk/high, is constantly late, can't do their job, etc. that the union fights for. Endless time and money are wasted on workers who should have been fired. Instead, grievances are filed and sub-par works are kept because "they are in the union". That is not what unions were supposed to be about, but thats what they have turned into.


Lets get this straight right now bud.. maybe in your union you play that way. Been in the skilled trades all my life and I can guarantee you this, come in late, come in drunk or high, can't do your job and your out on your ass, no questions asked. The auto unions and other shop unions have been a black eye for all of us in the skilled trades because of exactly what you described. They paid into a childcare union instead of somebody who really fought for the guy with the tools. a hours work for a hours pay.. that's how we worked.


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## bountyhunter (Apr 28, 2004)

unions are a thing that should have gone by the way ,there no longer needed for a worker that does his job.


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

bajuski said:


> I can't see how the big three are even surviving. The new companies starting up like Nissan, Honda, BMW etc have such an advantage over our established companies like GM, NO RETIREES. That alone is a huge cost to GM. Pensions and Healthcare are killing them let alone the tax breaks etc the states give the upstarts to lure the new companies! It almost feels like we're trying kill the big three in this political climate, it's not the unions!


You are right about the retirees cost to the big three.When I hired into GM in 78,there were 440,000 employes.Now they are about 40,000 or so.That is a lot of money going out to us.


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

Popspastime said:


> Lets get this straight right now bud.. maybe in your union you play that way. Been in the skilled trades all my life and I can guarantee you this, come in late, come in drunk or high, can't do your job and your out on your ass, no questions asked. The auto unions and other shop unions have been a black eye for all of us in the skilled trades because of exactly what you described. They paid into a childcare union instead of somebody who really fought for the guy with the tools. a hours work for a hours pay.. that's how we worked.


I have seen this,union fights for these people that should not have a job.


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

68bucks said:


> The plant closing is just a matter of people not buying their product, they don't make what people want. The problem I have is so so many people on this thread talking about buying American cars. The problem is far deeper than cars. How many people that work at that plant stop at places like Harbor Frieght and buy their junk Chinese tools cause they're cheap? Then hit Walmart to buy cheap Chinese clothes and work boots? What about all those plants that are now gone? People want to make a big deal out of buying American made cars but don't think twice about all they spend on other foreign made goods. I bet over time we spend far more money and affect far more jobs with all the stuff we buy beside vehicles. So the next time you buy something please try to buy American or this trend will only continue.


People look for the cheapest.I try to by American made when I can.You are right,if we took a little time to by American made it sure would help.I don't mind paying a little more if it will help all of us in the end.


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## bajuski (Apr 9, 2004)

Lake Boat said:


> You are right about the retirees cost to the big three.When I hired into GM in 78,there were 440,000 employes.Now they are about 40,000 or so.That is a lot of money going out to us.


The last job I had was in the airline industry, I was hired in 1967 and worked there for 32 years until I retired. The same identical thing happened, upstarts came in and drove Eastern, Pan Am, TWA and most older airlines out of business. My airline went belly up too, I still get my pension but the taxpayer is footing it, PBGC!


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## bajuski (Apr 9, 2004)

Lake Boat said:


> You are right about the retirees cost to the big three.When I hired into GM in 78,there were 440,000 employes.Now they are about 40,000 or so.That is a lot of money going out to us.


The last job I had was in the airline industry, I was hired in 1967 and worked there for 32 years until I retired. The same identical thing happened, upstarts came in and drove Eastern, Pan Am, TWA and most older airlines out of business. My airline went belly up too, I still get my pension but the taxpayer is footing it, PBGC!


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

[QUOTEyour thoughts are the reason wall mart workers are all part time and need welfare to get by ="bountyhunter, post: 2625433, member: 1119"]unions are a thing that should have gone by the way ,there no longer needed for a worker that does his job.[/QUOTE]


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

steelhead steve said:


> [QUOTEyour thoughts are the reason wall mart workers are all part time and need welfare to get by ="bountyhunter, post: 2625433, member: 1119"]unions are a thing that should have gone by the way ,there no longer needed for a worker that does his job.


[/QUOTE]
That's why I could retire and not work until I drop, got a good wage and pension for the future (NOW). My pension is government protected and get it for life, and guess what?? I worked for every penny. To an employer all you are is a number, if you think your more then that your in for a rude awakening. The more they put in their pocket the better they are, name one that's for the employee. Once you become a high cost of doing business your gone.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

There is only a percentage of the population who can always buy the best , buy American made , etc. The rest of us get by with a lot of effort and cost cutting. We have been paying China to ship in their cheap junk for long enough now that you almost cant make ends meet unless you buy foreign made products. Its an artificial system and economy. I can no longer afford go to the store and buy an American made wrench so I can use it maybe once to adjust my brakes , I could buy dinner for a family of 4 with what that wrench costs ,....but I can go to harbor freight and buy one for $8 and keep my car on the road another year. The average Joe blue collar American is hopelessly doomed in this system to buy cheap foreign made junk because the American companies cant make a profit making the product here and selling it at a decent price. Some effort has been made in the past two years to deal with this but its an uphill battle , not sure what took decades of bad deals to go wrong can be fixed in less time. Even buying American made products now really does nothing to help the situation. You wont keep the doors open of a plant ready to close , you wont change the fact that its more profitable to make products elsewhere. A million Americans buying American made wont change the fact that American companies still cant compete unless they produce elsewhere. They appreciate your loyalty but they are going overseas first chance they get.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Sadly, they have close shop in Lordstown and will not be back. I retired from one on the Big 3 from middle management. A year after I left they decided to make me a cash out offer on my retirement which I took and invested wisely. They now owe me nothing, and I owe them nothing. I sleep well at night knowing I treated the 150 + Skilled Trades that I was responsible for fairly. The Big 3 continuously shot themselves in the foot during my 19 year tenure.


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

I don't have a dog in this fight as far as being a union member, working for GM, etc... but... I've purchased 7 or 8 new cars/trucks. Before new I always had GM cars, used, but every one left me stranded somewhere. They included Olds, Chevys, Pontiacs and Chryslers. I really didn't know how bad they really were until I test drove for my 1st new auto and found absolutely no comparison between the foreign and American products. All of those new cars/trucks I purchased, I wanted to buy American but after test drives there just wasn't an American model with the value of foreign autos in terms of cost/quietness/feel on the road/warranty/reputation. So EVERY new car/truck purchased sadly was foreign. Simply put if America can't put out a product that can compete... I'm sorry but.


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

I am 74 years old and have always worked Union jobs. Thanks to the Union I was able to live a good life, put my kids through school and retire at 55. I have been a member of 3 different Unions. A few years at Westinghouse Electric in Columbus Oh. as a member of the IUE and had no problems with them, less than a year with McNichlas Transportation in Youngstown Oh. with the Teamsters, was not there long enough to form and opinion, and going on close to 50 yeas as a member of the United Mine Workers, . I can honestly say I have never, not once during all those years seen the Union stand up and support someone for not doing their jobs... I can honestly say I litterly owe the UMWA for my life. Not once, but twice. First for standing with all its members on safety issues, and for fighting tooth and nail for the enforcement of any safety laws and issues. And to make sure that all members came out of those shotguns ( actually that is what a coal mine is, a shotgun with the hammer pulled back) . And the Local reps would not hesitate to have a talk with any member who was caught doing an unsafe task. The second life saver was in 2018 I had a battle with cancer that if not for help from the UMWA I would have lost. You may not consider safety issues as much of a benefit, but when you are working in an environment where 1 unsafe condition can blow 200 or more men to bits, you will understand how much of an issue it is. And forget the argument that Federal and State inspectors take care of safety, That is a joke until you witness it, ie Upper Big Branch or Consol and many others. And the argument that the Company will take care of anything unsafe, Well I have a bridge to sell you here in Gallipolis. Companies will fight and spend millions fighting against providing safe amounts of the very air we breathed in those mines. Just my thoughts are that the Unions provide much much more than a good wage. We worked hard, every man I ever worked with did their jobs. And again I never not once seen Union Reps stand up for a man who did not do his job. .....


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

[QUOTE="Popspastime, post: 2625609, member: 50410"
My pension is government protected and get it for life[/QUOTE]

"Government protected" means that when the union administration mishandles the pension fund & it goes broke, your pension will then be paid by the taxpayers!


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

cincinnati said:


> [QUOTE="Popspastime, post: 2625609, member: 50410"
> My pension is government protected and get it for life


"Government protected" means that when the union administration mishandles the pension fund & it goes broke, your pension will then be paid by the taxpayers![/QUOTE]

Then Pay Up!


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

I worked non union most of my life. When I was young and starting out I worked for a few small companies who had shop unions and they were a joke and the only thing those unions did was run the companies out of business. After losing those jobs due to shutdowns I decided to go non union. For me it worked. Nope I didn't get a pension and I had to use my own money to fund my retirement and I couldn't retire until I was in my 60's.
I don't begrudge anyone who worked for a union but I do not feel anyone's pension should be government protected. It was your choice to join your union, your choice to stay with them and if they fail well it was your choice. I sure don't want my money saving anyone. You made such a good wage and if you didn't save anything...shame on you.
If anyone hasn't see a union protect a useless employee you just haven't looked. GM was as bad as I ever saw and GE in Evendale, Oh was a close 2nd. Same goes for government workers.


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

crappiedude said:


> I worked non union most of my life. When I was young and starting out I worked for a few small companies who had shop unions and they were a joke and the only thing those unions did was run the companies out of business. After losing those jobs due to shutdowns I decided to go non union. For me it worked. Nope I didn't get a pension and I had to use save my own money to fun my retirement and I couldn't retire until I was in my 60's.
> I don't begrudge anyone who worked for a union but I do not feel anyone's pension should be government protected. It was your choice to join your union, your choice to stay with them and if they fail well it was your choice. I sure don't want my money saving anyone. You made such a good wage and if you didn't save anything...shame on you.
> If anyone hasn't see a union protect a useless employee you just haven't looked. GM was as bad as I ever saw and GE in Evendale, Oh was a close 2nd. Same goes for government workers.


Agree.  My "pension" was funded by ME. If I end up sleeping under newspapers on a park bench, it will be MY fault. Hardly seems fair to have pay for the poorly planned retirements of others, too.


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

And since we’re all reminiscing about the good times w/GM, here’s a favorite of mine.

Early ‘90’s, backed in to Toledo Transmission to pick up a load. The transmissions were packed in large racks. Same number of transmissions in each rack. Depending on trailer size, a full load was about 5 or 6 racks. Pretty simple math. 

It took FOUR guys to load the trailer. #1, using a fork lift, brought each rack from the plant & staged it right at the trailer. #2, carrying a can of rubber plugs, inspected the racks for open orifices on any transmission. #3 scanned a tag on the racks & prepared the shipping papers. #4, using a 2nd fork lift, pushed the racks into the trailer.

A very slow, methodical process but when they finally finished, they couldn’t agree on how many transmissions were in my trailer. After some discussion, they unloaded the trailer & started over.


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

thats funny crap when i was flat bedding and delivered to alot of steel to G M plants it always took forever because they all acted like drama queens...


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## bajuski (Apr 9, 2004)

While the *PBGC* is a federal agency, it not *funded* with tax dollars. Instead, it is *funded* by premiums collected from defined-benefit plan sponsors, assets from defined-benefit plans for which it serves as trustee, recoveries in bankruptcy from former plan sponsors and with earnings from invested assets.
My pension was not run by the union at all, it was run by the company although the terms were negotiated at contract renewal. 
Companies used to play games with these pensions, if you were a long time employee, they would fire you for little or no reason and they would owe you nothing in pension. These laws were changed, that's why after 5 years you are known to be vested, if you get fired you will still get your pension at retirement age.
See, I'm not a freeloader


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

crappiedude said:


> I worked non union most of my life. When I was young and starting out I worked for a few small companies who had shop unions and they were a joke and the only thing those unions did was run the companies out of business. After losing those jobs due to shutdowns I decided to go non union. For me it worked. Nope I didn't get a pension and I had to use save my own money to fun my retirement and I couldn't retire until I was in my 60's.
> I don't begrudge anyone who worked for a union but I do not feel anyone's pension should be government protected. It was your choice to join your union, your choice to stay with them and if they fail well it was your choice. I sure don't want my money saving anyone. You made such a good wage and if you didn't save anything...shame on you.
> If anyone hasn't see a union protect a useless employee you just haven't looked. GM was as bad as I ever saw and GE in Evendale, Oh was a close 2nd. Same goes for government workers.


Yep...I'll go a step further to say I can't stand unions ...I think that maybe many years ago there was an appropriate place for unions...But now it seems that they really only protect lazy people that want to rape the FMLA system, call in sick on a weekly basis… And always constantly play the victim so they can call themselves "disabled " and pick up a better earlier retirement ...and make everyone else pick up their slack. I just left a government union position because I couldn't stand how effing lazy and idiotic these people were ,it was a disgusting waste of money To keep some these people employed. Yes there were few good people that do their jobs and Took responsibility ... I guarantee you more than half of these people are just lazy idiots protected by the union . I have seen it with my own eyes and it was enough to make me leave.


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Have we set a record for the longest running political thread?


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

gm stinks give me a toyota anyday


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## TIN_KNOCKER (Nov 15, 2005)

You gotta love all the Union bashing!

I am a proud skilled trades union member and I work my butt off every day. If I don’t, I’ll get laid off. It’s as simple as that.


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## chrisrf815 (Jul 6, 2014)

Saugeyefisher said:


> Have we set a record for the longest running political thread?


I posted a comment on this thread being political a couple a days ago and it got deleted. I thought that was absurd that it got deleted for calling out some comments as being political.


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

They sound a little jealous.Retired at 49 with my 30.Love my union.


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## bajuski (Apr 9, 2004)

Lake Boat said:


> They sound a little jealous.Retired at 49 with my 30.Love my union.



49, I'm a little jealous myself


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## Stars-n-Stripers (Nov 15, 2007)

Lake Boat said:


> They sound a little jealous.Retired at 49 with my 30.Love my union.


I don't begrudge YOU or anyone in your position, your just took advantage of what was offered to you, hell if I could do it over I would be right there with you!

Having said that though, when those companies agreed to those contracts I don't think anybody had much foresight into the future, that's what's bankrupting and breaking companies now, those pensions are unsustainable. Not sure what your line of work was but say you're pulling down 30K per year, after 25 years that's $750,000. If you draw on it for 40 years thats a cool 1.2 million dollars. Do you think you paid even half that into it over those 30 years? If you have insurance as part of your pension you can probably add another 10K per year to those figures. My dad, a GM retiree since he was 55, now in his 80's complained to me once about something that had changed and he had to start paying $60 per month, I said Dad you have no idea how good you have it. 

I've got friends that retired from the city or county that are pulling down over *50K* per year in pension, one of whom, like you retired at 49, that's unsustainable. Oh wait, not it's not, they'll just increase our taxes. THESE folks are the new upper middle class. Lots of folks went without raises when the recession hit, not these guys, they got their 3% every year. Heck, the Sheriffs Dept even got something added called "longevity pay", was like $50 or $100 for every year of service, I called it a Christmas bonus. My best friend retired as a Deputy, he argued with me about it, he had no idea tax dollars were a large backer of those pensions, not just their contributions to PERS (Public Employee Retirement System)

I've told my son to go to work for the city/county/or state, that he'll be retired by the time he's my age. He replied "it's not all about the $$ dad", to which I replied "trust me, it is!"


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## 1MoreKast (Mar 15, 2008)

bobk said:


> Great thing about this country is you can buy whatever you want.


It is certainly great, but IMO, under the circumstances that we the funds to do so. I bought my 2003 Silverado in cash back in 2011. Still today it is on the road running great. It is making me money. I don't know how anyone can afford $30,000 to $50,000 trucks unless they have that cash. And I hope my generation and the ones after begins to change the ways of buying things on credit. We are one of the richest poorest countries. Has anyone ever been denied to purchase a vehicle on credit? Seems rare.

Being in manufacturing it really sucks seeing plants shut down and the families affected by it. Not sure if it will alter my decision as my Chevy truck has been faithful and reliable since day 1. I guess it depends on the history as I don't ever buy brand new.

Interesting topic.


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## 1MoreKast (Mar 15, 2008)

.


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## Lake Boat (Aug 21, 2013)

Stars-n-Stripers said:


> I don't begrudge YOU or anyone in your position, your just took advantage of what was offered to you, hell if I could do it over I would be right there with you!
> 
> Having said that though, when those companies agreed to those contracts I don't think anybody had much foresight into the future, that's what's bankrupting and breaking companies now, those pensions are unsustainable. Not sure what your line of work was but say you're pulling down 30K per year, after 25 years that's $750,000. If you draw on it for 40 years thats a cool 1.2 million dollars. Do you think you paid even half that into it over those 30 years? If you have insurance as part of your pension you can probably add another 10K per year to those figures. My dad, a GM retiree since he was 55, now in his 80's complained to me once about something that had changed and he had to start paying $60 per month, I said Dad you have no idea how good you have it.
> 
> ...


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## Stars-n-Stripers (Nov 15, 2007)

1MoreKast said:


> It is certainly great, but IMO, under the circumstances that we the funds to do so. I bought my 2003 Silverado in cash back in 2011. Still today it is on the road running great. It is making me money. *I don't know how anyone can afford $30,000 to $50,000 trucks unless they have that cash. And I hope my generation and the ones after begins to change the ways of buying things on credit. * We are one of the richest poorest countries. Has anyone ever been denied to purchase a vehicle on credit? Seems rare.
> 
> 
> Interesting topic.


That's another thing I've tried to instill in my son, I told him when watching a commercial showing beautiful people doing oh so fun things "don't ever think that these folks care about you, once you've purchased a vehicle their job is done, whether or not you pay for it they could care less about". It cracks me up to drive around and see folks with vehicles worth more than what they are living in, or worse yet living in an apartment. Heck I can remember when financing a vehicle for FOUR years was the longest you could do.

I've long thought this should be taught in schools, don't even get me going on banks and what they make on 30 year mortgages.


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## 1MoreKast (Mar 15, 2008)

Stars-n-Stripers said:


> That's another thing I've tried to instill in my son, I told him when watching a commercial showing beautiful people doing oh so fun things "don't ever think that these folks care about you, once you've purchased a vehicle their job is done, whether or not you pay for it they could care less about". It cracks me up to drive around and see folks with vehicles worth more than what they are living in, or worse yet living in an apartment. Heck I can remember when financing a vehicle for FOUR years was the longest you could do.
> 
> I've long thought this should be taught in schools, don't even get me going on banks and what they make on 30 year mortgages.


Yes Stars-n-Stripers! Please continue to teach! ....I don't want to derail this thread and we wont, but what another great topic to cover. It has really bothered me in recent years. Makes me sick.


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## spikeg79 (Jun 11, 2012)

dcool said:


> I was wondering about the thoughts of members here about all the GM plants closing, and moving a lot of their manufacturing to Mexico. I have been a long time owner of Chevy's and am having thoughts of never owning another. They are now the number 1 auto manufacturer in Mexico right now. They are building the Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain, And Chevy Silverado crew cab all in Mexico. What is next for the American worker? I think it is time that people stand up and say enough is enough. This is just my opinion! What are your thoughts?


Not gonna read the whole 7 page thread so I'll just leave my thoughts...
I think it's really short sighted of both GM & Ford to basically discontinue making cars as after all this is said and done they each will only have a few cars for sale by 2021. Gas will be above $3 and possibly $4 again and we all know what happened the last time, suv and truck sales tanked while car sales went up. 
Not to get political but some of the executive team that was put in place @ GM from the previous administration don't give a flip about American workers or consumers. Even Bob Lutz said so in his column at the back of a Motor Trend issue. The place my wife works at used to make a lot of interior parts for GM but after the new executive team got put in place all the manufacturing of those products got sent to China. It does piss me off that they decided to close the plants instead of retool them for other products such as the new Mexico built Chevy Blazer. I can't wait for the day Mary Barra is ousted and Mark Reuss is put in as CEO because he is a car enthusiast and GM lifetimer. 
I do wish the company as a whole does well because they still employ thousands of Americans.


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## zero410 (Feb 26, 2010)

The business model that these large companies are using is unsustainable.lets cut thousands of jobs which happen to be your customers also and let's send these jobs out of the country to be made for substantially less.and then let's send those vehicles or other products back to the USA and we'll try and sell them to the people we just fired for the same price.sounds like their hurting their business themselves.


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

zero410 said:


> The business model that these large companies are using is unsustainable.lets cut thousands of jobs which happen to be your customers also and let's send these jobs out of the country to be made for substantially less.and then let's send those vehicles or other products back to the USA and we'll try and sell them to the people we just fired for the same price.sounds like their hurting their business themselves.


IMHO opinion you are CoreRect…. they killed the goose that layed the golden eggs


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## bulafisherman (Apr 11, 2004)

STRONGPERSUADER said:


> I knew a lot of guys that worked at the GM plant in Mansfield. Had one buddy tell me he made 90,000 plus one year and this was in 82-85 maybe? A line worker! Then he said he slept or played cards 8 out of the 10-12 hr days. Them ole boys priced themselves out of a job. That’s exactly what happened. Alot would take a lay-off when available and make just as much money as if they were working.


 I used to hunt with a guy that worked at GM in the late 80s. He would clock in for his shift on fri evening, work an hour or so than meet us to head for southern Ohio or WV for a weekend of deer hunting one of his co-workers would clock him out at the end of his shift and he would get paid for the whole night. Heard a lot of stoties of mismanagement back than.


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## STRONGPERSUADER (Nov 5, 2006)

Back in the 80’s you could buy new every 2-3 yrs and not be upside down. I bought 4 new vehicles in the 80’s with not a penny down. An 85 Dakota 4x4, 88 Barrera, then a kid, an 89 4 door escort, and an 89 Ranger. All payments under 200.00 a month. Once the 90’s hit you couldn’t do that anymore. Then an 93 ranger 4x4. Drove it til it died. People were buying their cars. They milked themselves out of a job. Bottom line.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Two comments:


> The business model that these large companies are using is unsustainable.lets cut thousands of jobs which happen to be your customers also and let's send these jobs out of the country to be made for substantially less.and then let's send those vehicles or other products back to the USA and we'll try and sell them to the people we just fired for the same price.sounds like their hurting their business themselves.


I agree. Henry Ford double his workers pay so they could afford to buy the cars he was producing. Of course, out sourcing to Mexico and China wasn't an option then. Someone told me yesterday that Ross Perot was absolutely right when he talked about the great sucking sound of jobs going south when he ran for President.



> I've got friends that retired from the city or county that are pulling down over *50K* per year in pension, one of whom, like you retired at 49, that's unsustainable. Oh wait, not it's not, they'll just increase our taxes. THESE folks are the new upper middle class. Lots of folks went without raises when the recession hit, not these guys, they got their 3% every year.


It really bothers me when people refer to Government "pensions". These are NOT pensions. It is their version of Social Security. If you don't like government workers to have social security, then give yours up. I am a private sector worker that still has a defined benefit pension. I am very, very lucky. It is totally different than my social security and NOT the same a government worker "pension.


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## Alaskan (Jun 19, 2007)

montagc said:


> You know it was Bush who started the bailouts, right? He didn't run in 2012.
> 
> If you all stop buying GM, the remainder of the value in the stock will plummet and continue to hurt consumers.
> 
> There are pros and cons to having large corporations, but all the issues discussed herein are the cons when companies get this large. They just have too much power when they get this big.


You mean the stock issued by Bush and then sold by Obama admins at a loss to the US taxpayer? All the more reason they should have withered on the vine. The market would have picked up the pieces eventually, and naturally. Enough of the government voodoo interventions in markets. It has our economy, our health care and retirements walking tight ropes.


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## Brahmabull71 (Jul 30, 2014)

_As_ I sit here drinking my coffee before this thread gets closed for political reasons, one of my most favorite Adam Smith (_Wealth of Nations _author_) _comes to mind. As some may or may not know, he is considered the “Father” of economics and his principles remain tried and true.

Just let this quote sink in BEFORE any political thoughts enter your mind. Just read and interpret, then ask yourself, “does this sound contrary to the work model of today?”
_
“The value of any commodity, therefore, to the person who possesses it, and who means not to use or consume it himself, but to exchange it for other commodities, is equal to the quantity of labour which it enables him to purchase or command. Labour, therefore, is the real measure of the exchangeable value of all commodities. The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it.”

_


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## cheezemm2 (Apr 7, 2004)

Just wait until self driving cars are invented AND adopted and we no longer own them and use shared vehicle services...the automobile as we know it is archaic. If you really want to think about something that'll cook your noodle,think of how much we pay for a car per month and then think about the actual amount of time we use it w/in a 24 hour day. It's way underutilized and doesn't make sense to keep doing it this way. Everyone thinks of Uber and Lyft as taxi services, but if you do some serious digging they are masters at matching supply/demand in ways that we don't normally think about.


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

gm still sucks, period


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

Lewzer said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 
> I agree. Henry Ford double his workers pay so they could afford to buy the cars he was producing. Of course, out sourcing to Mexico and China wasn't an option then. Someone told me yesterday that Ross Perot was absolutely right when he talked about the great sucking sound of jobs going south when he ran for President.
> ...


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

a lot of people don't realize that's the same for a teacher they do not get social security and I know a lot of people who complain about a teachers pay but I bet if they had to go to school for 6 years and most teachers are required to have a masters degree and put up with all the crap from not only the students but the parents you would want a better pay than they get .if you are in the private sector or work non union consider yourself lucky if you have a pension or insurance .I have seen both sides and I will always support unions .


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

Average teacher's salary in Ohio is $58,000+. In my district, it's $69,00 & there are about 150 employees making over $90k. Not exactly starvation wages for 9 months work. You only need a 4 year undergraduate degree to be certified. A Master's before securing tenure leaves you exposed to being displaced in a cost-cutting move, so many will postpone before moving up to the higher scale. 

Yes, the kids are a PITA but anyone w/o rose colored glasses knows that from the beginning. Am I the only one who remembers that there were very few well-behaved kids who loved being in school?  

If they're being sincere, the veteran teachers will admit that they hang in for the retirement.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

Good Points. I know several teachers and they say the same.


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## SJB (Mar 22, 2017)

I will say all of this is simply economics, nothing more, nothing less. I am in manufacturing myself (food world) and have had to make decisions similar to what is being done now. Let us just call all of what we make here widgets. In my particular case, I had seven different factories that could make the widgets. Of the seven, 2 were union. I took into all accounts in the decision process – consumer complaints, 1st time quality, and most importantly, cost to produce each widget. Every single time, there was one particular factory that the cost was off the charts. It had everything to do with the local union contract that had been negotiated, simply put; they were no longer competitive with the other 6 factories. It was not a contract I negotiated, but done on a local level, as it should be. Both the local union and the local factory leadership failed to realize, that if they continue to over-compensate the union workers, ultimately, they cut their own throats and other options will be found. That is what happened in this particular situation, that factory ended up shutting down. Discussions were made with the local union that they were no longer competitive, but they did not want to hear it and held their ground. The market would only bear so much market price increase, but would not cover the additional, above market, wage they requested. Factory shut down. Econ 101.


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

SJB said:


> I will say all of this is simply economics, nothing more, nothing less. I am in manufacturing myself (food world) and have had to make decisions similar to what is being done now. Let us just call all of what we make here widgets. In my particular case, I had seven different factories that could make the widgets. Of the seven, 2 were union. I took into all accounts in the decision process – consumer complaints, 1st time quality, and most importantly, cost to produce each widget. Every single time, there was one particular factory that the cost was off the charts. It had everything to do with the local union contract that had been negotiated, simply put; they were no longer competitive with the other 6 factories. It was not a contract I negotiated, but done on a local level, as it should be. Both the local union and the local factory leadership failed to realize, that if they continue to over-compensate the union workers, ultimately, they cut their own throats and other options will be found. That is what happened in this particular situation, that factory ended up shutting down. Discussions were made with the local union that they were no longer competitive, but they did not want to hear it and held their ground. The market would only bear so much market price increase, but would not cover the additional, above market, wage they requested. Factory shut down. Econ 101 then you forgot the other part of your widgets the owner is greedy and pays the non union workers slave wages with no benefits and if you say that dosnt happen take a look at wall mart .


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

steelhead steve said:


> a lot of people don't realize that's the same for a teacher they do not get social security and I know a lot of people who complain about a teachers pay but I bet if they had to go to school for 6 years and most teachers are required to have a masters degree and put up with all the crap from not only the students but the parents you would want a better pay than they get .if you are in the private sector or work non union consider yourself lucky if you have a pension or insurance .I have seen both sides and I will always support unions .


I am pretty sure that you don't need a masters degree to teach in HS. You do to be a professor in college though.


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

We live and work in a world that wants everything now,right and free. If you cant provide two of the three move over........the next guy will


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## cement569 (Jan 21, 2016)

I was just watching the noon news and talks are underway with gm and the union to reopen the lordstown plant. I hope so because the people need to have their jobs back and the city can continue to prosper


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

Bluewalleye said:


> I am pretty sure that you don't need a masters degree to teach in HS. You do to be a professor in college though.


depends on the school district some do require you have your masters within 10 years plus you also need extra edu. to teach adhd kids or special need students


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

SJB said:


> I will say all of this is simply economics, nothing more, nothing less. I am in manufacturing myself (food world) and have had to make decisions similar to what is being done now. Let us just call all of what we make here widgets. In my particular case, I had seven different factories that could make the widgets. Of the seven, 2 were union. I took into all accounts in the decision process – consumer complaints, 1st time quality, and most importantly, cost to produce each widget. Every single time, there was one particular factory that the cost was off the charts. It had everything to do with the local union contract that had been negotiated, simply put; they were no longer competitive with the other 6 factories. It was not a contract I negotiated, but done on a local level, as it should be. Both the local union and the local factory leadership failed to realize, that if they continue to over-compensate the union workers, ultimately, they cut their own throats and other options will be found. That is what happened in this particular situation, that factory ended up shutting down. Discussions were made with the local union that they were no longer competitive, but they did not want to hear it and held their ground. The market would only bear so much market price increase, but would not cover the additional, above market, wage they requested. Factory shut down. Econ 101.


I will say this is exactly what happened to my 2 union jobs I worked before making my decision to work non union if possible. Some of the demands and waste of the union shops were pretty unrealistic.


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## SJB (Mar 22, 2017)

then you forgot the other part of your widgets the owner is greedy and pays the non union workers slave wages with no benefits and if you say that dosnt happen take a look at wall mart .

Why would one stay at an employer if they are getting slave wages? Right now in today's economy, all across the country in the factory's I support (n=32), if you are a breathing body, shows up to work, can pass a drug test and read, you are at a minimum making $15 an hour, plus full bennies. Most places are closer to $20. If you can turn a wrench, $25 is common and I see as high as $30. Plus most of these folks pull in OT, often cracking the $100K mark per year. I guess in my book I don't consider that slave wages.


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

SJB said:


> then you forgot the other part of your widgets the owner is greedy and pays the non union workers slave wages with no benefits and if you say that dosnt happen take a look at wall mart .
> 
> Why would one stay at an employer if they are getting slave wages? Right now in today's economy, all across the country in the factory's I support (n=32), if you are a breathing body, shows up to work, can pass a drug test and read, you are at a minimum making $15 an hour, plus full bennies. Most places are closer to $20. If you can turn a wrench, $25 is common and I see as high as $30. Plus most of these folks pull in OT, often cracking the $100K mark per year. I guess in my book I don't consider that slave wages.


 then the economy tanks just like it always does and another good example is right to work states they are the lowest pay states the top ten worse pay are right to work states wonder why . corperate greed and paid off politicians . if you get rid of the unions it will go back to before unions no overtime pay no benefits no vacations . I noticed you couldn't counter my wall mart comment and I have worked non union and if I had stayed I would still be working instead of retired . and I had a friend who retired and his son took the business after a month 2 employees who worked there for years were let go so his sons friends could have their jobs a union would have prevented that.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

I went by the Lordstown plant yesterday. Boy did GM cut all ties and run away as fast as they could. They painted over the huge pic of the Cruze on the side of the big east plant. Gone. It's tan like the rest of the building.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

Like it or not, unions are a nessary evil. Granted there are some companys that treat there employs fair, however there are a lot more that do not. I, have worked for both, union and non union. Lets not forget the supervires that will do things just because they can and will get away with it. I, have seen superviores that love to make peoples live miserable.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

I know i made my supervisors miserable. Its a 2 way street. You dont learn how to work overnight. Its a process. No child labor anymore. 50% or more of high school students have never held a job. Most corporations get the **** sandwich with untrained supervisors and workers who have no idea what work is. I support unions. Need to keep people working til they get something better. Ive worked at places that just hire and fire 60% plus turnover and it wears on everybody.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Lewzer said:


> I went by the Lordstown plant yesterday. Boy did GM cut all ties and run away as fast as they could. They painted over the huge pic of the Cruze on the side of the big east plant. Gone. It's tan like the rest of the building [QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> I read the plant was sold. Why wouldn’t they paint over the sign.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

dcool said:


> I was wondering about the thoughts of members here about all the GM plants closing, and moving a lot of their manufacturing to Mexico. I have been a long time owner of Chevy's and am having thoughts of never owning another. They are now the number 1 auto manufacturer in Mexico right now. They are building the Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain, And Chevy Silverado crew cab all in Mexico. What is next for the American worker? I think it is time that people stand up and say enough is enough. This is just my opinion! What are your thoughts?


I LEFT GM a long time ago...saw how they treated their employees


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## Brahmabull71 (Jul 30, 2014)

I just bought another Toyota product this morning...Lexus RX350. Went and drove many nice vehicles and the buying experience is just SOOOO much better with Toyota / Lexus. I think this makes the 5th new Toyota product we have purchased and I’m always amazed how smoothly and no BS it is. No back and forth with the ‘manager’ 20 times etc and wasting your entire day. In and out. Treated fair. Recently went truck shopping for a 2020 GMC Denali diesel and left so upset over the experience. Decided to keep my 10 year old Tundra and buy the wife a new SUV. I have NO loyalty to any US manufacturers. Build a better product, charge a fair and reasonable price and you’ll win me back. Until then, I’ll drive Toyota’s and Honda’s.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

When I worked for Eaton, I 1st worked an a nonunion plant in Spencer Iowa then was transferred to a Union plant in Marion. At the 1st plant the workers worked hand in hand with management and it was a great place to work for me and it seemed like most of the employees. The plant had only been opened about 5 years before I got there so there wasn't a lot of history. We were the highest paying company in the area needing the highest skilled factory worker. 
The Forge plant in Marion was totally different. All the office workers had to be on tiptoes as the union workers would file a grievance if you picked up a gum wrapper while walking the floors of the factory. I remember coming in the day after doing the payroll (substituting for the payroll manager) and seeing the parking lot full of men picketing. I thought I caused a wildcat strike for screwing up their pay. Luckily the strike was for something else. The union was really strong and militant and certainly wasn't about production. 
The eased up when Dresser closed down a plant. 

Not sure what happened after I moved on But I know Eaton ended up closing both plants eventually. Business conditions changed and you move on. Not many buggy whip factories any more.


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> I hate to say it, but it is very much the unions. Just for the record, I am part of a union and on our executive committee. The problem is that most unions only work for the worst workers. It's always the person who shows up drunk/high, is constantly late, can't do their job, etc. that the union fights for. Endless time and money are wasted on workers who should have been fired. Instead, grievances are filed and sub-par works are kept because "they are in the union". That is not what unions were supposed to be about, but thats what they have turned into.


This is the biggest bunch of bs I've read yet...do they file grievances for people who probably have no right keeping their jobs...yes, that's cause they have too or the worker can file charges against the union...its the companies who agree to bring them back just cause they don't want to deal with it..
They do it to keep the workers divided cause 90% of the workers are good workers that come in everyday and do their job...its the 10% that are deadbeats that everyone is always so bent on talking about


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

TRIPLE-J said:


> This is the biggest bunch of bs I've read yet...do they file grievances for people who probably have no right keeping their jobs...yes, that's cause they have too or the worker can file charges against the union...its the companies who agree to bring them back just cause they don't want to deal with it..
> They do it to keep the workers divided cause 90% of the workers are good workers that come in everyday and do their job...its the 10% that are deadbeats that everyone is always so bent on talking about


YOU NAILED IT. I, have see the union bust there a$$ and bend over backwards for the dead beats. I, have also seen people in the union, as union officers, that are there ,because they are bead beats, and are protected by both, the union and the superviorers.


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

TRIPLE-J said:


> This is the biggest bunch of bs I've read yet...do they file grievances for people who probably have no right keeping their jobs...yes, that's cause they have too or the worker can file charges against the union...its the companies who agree to bring them back just cause they don't want to deal with it..
> They do it to keep the workers divided cause 90% of the workers are good workers that come in everyday and do their job...its the 10% that are deadbeats that everyone is always so bent on talking about


must be a good reason why in right to work states , the workers make less have fewer benefits and seldom have a pension or 401k . and I worked as a union worker and people who deserved to get fired got fired.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

steelhead steve said:


> must be a good reason why in right to work states , the workers make less have fewer benefits and seldom have a pension or 401k . and I worked as a union worker and people who deserved to get fired got fired.


You worked for a real company. The company I worked for, if you kissed a good butt, you were protected, no matter what you did.


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

steelhead steve said:


> must be a good reason why in right to work states , the workers make less have fewer benefits and seldom have a pension or 401k . and I worked as a union worker and people who deserved to get fired got fired.


me too


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

there is good and bad in everything, unions included, but all you ever hear about is the same crap,,, only stick up for the dead beats that dont deserve a job, punch in at work and go to the bar, wish i had a dollar for everytime i heard this bs... and it always comes from people who have never worked there... its always... i had a friend,, everytime...
there are great places to work that arent union, and there are great places to work that are union...


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

Worked Union all my life "Carpenter" and if I didn't I wouldn't be in the shape I'm in today. A hours work for a hour's pay. Didn't produce, you were gone. Didn't get to work on time, someone replaced you. We earned every dollar and didn't worry about some agent standing up for drunks and tardiness. We as skilled professionals didn't want to share the workplace with them. The Unions kept up with inflation and cost of living until they started getting busted. They make big deals about bringing back all these jobs that pay $12 - $15 top money for life with no fringes, where does that get a family of 4 these days even if both parents work? The Skilled Trades never worked like the Auto and Shop unions did and still don't.


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## MIGHTY (Sep 21, 2013)




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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Getting back to the Original topic, I went by Lordstown Sunday and stopped to see if any progress was going on at the old GM plant. 
New signs and a new mural on the plant wall where the Cruze used to be. Also a huge new warehouse/distribution center across Ellsworth Bailey Rd is being built.


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## Jim white (Feb 19, 2018)

What did it say now Lordstown Motors owned by Workhorse group wonder how much Ohio tax dollars goes into that. but those jobs won't pay per hour what the people that work there before was making. like the others have said there bringing jobs back but for less money per hour.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

I looked up the warehouse and it’s TJX Corp. Home furnishing stuff. While looming that up I did see the GM battery plant land clearing started 1st week of April on SR45. Something like $2.5billion being invested there. Like you said, both places much lower paying than the assembly plant.


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

sherman51 said:


> trump doesn't want to build the wall to keep the Mexicans in Mexico but to keep all the Americans from going to Mexico in a few yrs when there are not enough good paying jobs left in America.
> 
> the American auto workers did kind off price there selves out of the market with 30+ dollars an hour jobs. but with the price of a new car or truck being out of the price range of most of us they could pay those wages and still make a good profit. but the auto industry here has to deal with high taxes plus satisfy the epa regulations. other countries have very low taxes, no epa, low wages, and lower cost materials. why not move to other countries where they can build at a fraction of the cost and still charge the same price as auto's built here? what our government needs to do is raise tariffs so high for American companies building out side the us to make it cost them more than it would cost to have there products built here. I blame our situation on greed and our government for allowing this to continue.
> sherman


dont blame the workers for the cost of the cars yes some make 30 bucks an hour but now you have 50 people and 200 robots building the cars in the plants instead of 250 people actually working... and where do you think all the money for the labor savings for having the 200 robots doing the work now is going...right in the corporate leaders pockets...and the same goes for the cars made in mexico...they are building them there for even less and where is all that cost savings going???? same pockets.. trickle down economics doesnt work and never did... all it does is make the rich richer and the average guy loses his job to a robot or a low wage worker in another country...


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

TRIPLE-J said:


> dont blame the workers for the cost of the cars yes some make 30 bucks an hour but now you have 50 people and 200 robots building the cars in the plants instead of 250 people actually working... and where do you think all the money for the labor savings for having the 200 robots doing the work now is going...right in the corporate leaders pockets...and the same goes for the cars made in mexico...they are building them there for even less and where is all that cost savings going???? same pockets.. trickle down economics doesnt work and never did... all it does is make the rich richer and the average guy loses his job to a robot or a low wage worker in another country...


Maybe... but there are also several hundred people that got jobs building those robots....If people wanna make more money … Get an education!


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## JamesF (May 20, 2016)

I worked for a union company. When new machinery was brought in, we were given a chance to learn how to operate it. However, the company had outside contractors, fixing them. A lot of guys thought that was part of the deal. It wasn't. They just figured that we were too stupid and ignorant to be able to do the work. I was not pleased about this. We had a committee on the outside work, compared to the number of union members. I brought this up to our union, got a bunch of blah, blah! From the company. We took it to the district. The company was in an uproar, I pointed out, that the company is already paying union members to further their education. OMG!! You would have thought that someone put Anchovies in their cake. Dumbasses!! The cost for outside contractors versus education for in house repairs, was a no brainer. It took almost two years for the company to abdicate to "my" idea. I told my Forman,he was a decent person, that, your boss's are like bears,"been shitting in the woods forever, and you'd think we were trying to potty train them ". Sometimes you have to push the right buttons. Both the union and the company were like the mafia. What's in it for me! Nothing! Go [email protected]# yourselves...


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## Jim white (Feb 19, 2018)

Rich are always going to get richer


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

9Left said:


> Maybe... but there are also several hundred people that got jobs building those robots....If people wanna make more money … Get an education!


Get a education sounds easy. Some people are not college matteral. You have to live with the card you were dealt.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

'Thoughts on GM'...
...still the best out of the big 3.


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## Jim white (Feb 19, 2018)

I've had one ford an still have a jeep for playin rest all GM specially trucks


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

Ford


fastwater said:


> 'Thoughts on GM'...
> ...still the best out of the big 3.


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## loweman165 (May 15, 2015)

9Left said:


> Maybe... but there are also several hundred people that got jobs building those robots....If people wanna make more money … Get an education!


What kind of stupid comment is that? If you don't have an education you don't deserve a fair wage? I make 90k a year building roads and infrastructure for this country. I dont deserve it because I went through an apprenticeship and not college? I got an idea, we'll pay factory workers and construction trades a low wage that you can't live on, then we'll farm those jobs out to Mexicans or the Chinese. That should give you a whole new topic to bitch about.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

loweman165 said:


> What kind of stupid comment is that? If you don't have an education you don't deserve a fair wage? I make 90k a year building roads and infrastructure for this country. I dont deserve it because I went through an apprenticeship and not college? I got an idea, we'll pay factory workers and construction trades a low wage that you can't live on, then we'll farm those jobs out to Mexicans or the Chinese. That should give you a whole new topic to bitch about.


WELL SAID. Every one can not work in a office. Some one has to build the office. People that work in the trades are very important.


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## CoonDawg92 (Jun 1, 2016)

Those jobs created making the robots are likely in Japan or Europe, not NE Ohio.

www.marketresearchreports.com


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## Patricio (Feb 2, 2007)

Don't fret, the gender studies graduates will even the gap. 

Really though, stem graduates among Americans are down like 65%. We are doomed, as is humanity. Don't get me started...


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

loweman165 said:


> What kind of stupid comment is that? If you don't have an education you don't deserve a fair wage? I make 90k a year building roads and infrastructure for this country. I dont deserve it because I went through an apprenticeship and not college? I got an idea, we'll pay factory workers and construction trades a low wage that you can't live on, then we'll farm those jobs out to Mexicans or the Chinese. That should give you a whole new topic to bitch about.


Holy crap .... sensitive much?? Nobody said anything about deserving anything…Just stating the facts that getting an education will offer you more opportunities… Dig the sand out sally..


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

CoonDawg92 said:


> Those jobs created making the robots are likely in Japan or Europe, not NE Ohio.
> 
> www.marketresearchreports.com
> 
> ...


Nope.. I worked for three years, right here in Southwest Ohio, for YASKAWA (motoman)... I built the robots, wired the interfaces, and programmed the pendants. Right next to the several hundred other Ohioans that had a job there… And they still do… I just decided work nights and go to school during the day… It was a pain in the ass but I did it… And I'm in a much better position now.


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## loves2fishinohio (Apr 14, 2011)

It's pretty ironic that American motor companies are offshoring labor to other counties, and manufacturers outside of the US offshore most of their manufacturing to the US. It seems kind of silly. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, most of them are manufactured right here in the US. Take Hyundai for example. Back when they first got in the auto business, their cars where $hit, being manufactured in Korea. Now, they are one of the best cars available, with one of the best warranties. I've had 2 now, and when I need another new car, it will be a Hyundai. The Sonata is a great sedan.


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

See no need for unions....if you don't like your working conditions, go somewhere else or go do something else or start your own business.....fortunately in the US, you can choose your own path and aren't made/told what you have to do (as in N Korea, USSR, China, etc....)......there's always somebody who will do the same work for less, and if not, then they'll raise the wages to the point where people will do it.

I mean, what exactly are the unions doing for cops right now? Look at the pickle their in....I definitely feel for them!

But on another note, if the police have unions, then why not the Army, Navy, USAF, SF, USMC, have a union......I mean, could you imagine Patton having to deal with a union head to negotiate on details of the Battle of the Bulge......"our guys will shoot no more than 4 clips per 1/2 hour, but if you need any more than that, you'll have to pay us double time..."......we'd all be speaking german today if that was the case!


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## CoonDawg92 (Jun 1, 2016)

9Left said:


> Nope.. I worked for three years, right here in Southwest Ohio, for YASKAWA (motoman)... I built the robots, wired the interfaces, and programmed the pendants. Right next to the several hundred other Ohioans that had a job there… And they still do… I just decided work nights and go to school during the day… It was a pain in the ass but I did it… And I'm in a much better position now.


That’s interesting to know 9left, thanks.


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

9Left said:


> Maybe... but there are also several hundred people that got jobs building those robots....If people wanna make more money … Get an education!


my post had nothing to do with people wanting to make more money, it had to do with the fact that at one time you had 250 people making a certain part of a car and now you have 50 people making the same part and robots doing the rest...yet everyone says its the labor costs that drive the prices of the cars up yet the manufacturers are making them for less labor costs by the labor savings from the 200 people that dont have a job anymore cause of the robots... so where is the money going that is saved???? right in the corporate leaders pockets..


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

heres typical corporate thinking.
i work in the trades as an electrician and travel alot for the company i work for.
on one trip down south, i walked into the plant floor and the acting plant manager is standing there with the other managers and complaining that he hires all these skilled trades guys and brings them in and trains them and then they walk for another job making .50 cents an hour more....i looked at him and said "you mean you let them leave for .50 cents an hour more"
he turns around and says what do you mean by that...
i told him the average worker works 2000 hours a year times that by .50 cents and thats 1000.00 dollars a year.... he looks at me and says ya??? then i ask him "do you know what you just paid to fly me down here, pay for my room, my rental car, my meals and my wages for a week ???
you could see it by the look on his face he didnt get it ...
yet hes letting good workers leave for 1000.00 dollars a year ...now THATS stupid
and i flew down there probably 15-20 times that year....you do the math


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## Jim white (Feb 19, 2018)

Yep some just dont get it an if it wasnt for the unions what would your hourly wage be or your benefits let alone your retirement


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

TRIPLE-J said:


> my post had nothing to do with people wanting to make more money, it had to do with the fact that at one time you had 250 people making a certain part of a car and now you have 50 people making the same part and robots doing the rest...yet everyone says its the labor costs that drive the prices of the cars up yet the manufacturers are making them for less labor costs by the labor savings from the 200 people that dont have a job anymore cause of the robots... so where is the money going that is saved???? right in the corporate leaders pockets..


Yes I understand that you weren't saying people are wanting more money… They're just wanting their jobs back… And I get that.... I guess I'm just saying that when it looks like one door is closing… There's always a window opening somewhere else...And keeping up with technology… Through education… More than likely opens up opportunities for people to get another job


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

9Left said:


> Yes I understand that you weren't saying people are wanting more money… They're just wanting their jobs back… And I get that.... I guess I'm just saying that when it looks like one door is closing… There's always a window opening somewhere else...And keeping up with technology… Through education… More than likely opens up opportunities for people to get another job


no offense but you dont get it
the original post stated that the american auto worker priced themselves out of their jobs by making $30.00 an hour. and thats why the cars are being made elsewhere...
my point was that it is more the corporate greed that has moved the jobs, first by replacing the workers with robots then by moving the jobs to low wage countries, either way the american workers are losing their jobs ... yet the corporate guys are making more and more money every year...and how are they doing it??? by not paying the wages they once did even tho they were still making a huge profit with those wages


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

The mentality that there are a bunch of fat old white guys, smoking cigars, sitting around tables laughing at the hourly workers while they write themselves pay raises is as ignorant as can be. And then to suggest that these guys that supposedly got themselves to the ‘payroll pinnacle’ did so by not understanding the difference between $.50 an hour and the expense of a hired subcontractor is just as absurd. While these companies often pay their executives way too much it is not as simple and silly as this. All of these corporations are publicly held and all of these salary decisions are made by board members that are voted in by the tens of thousands of investors, just like you and me. Most board members have zero to do with the actual corporations at all, other than serving on the board as an elected member. They are voted in place specifically due to their financial expertise in an effort to generate as much profit as possible, once again, for you and me. This “corporate greed” crap is outdated, these are now most all public companies that earn profit for their public investors, like you and me.


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## TRIPLE-J (Sep 18, 2006)

well truth hurts sometimes and you could see it by the expression on his face that he didnt get it...all he heard was .50 cents an hour..
funny how school boards will battle bus drivers and teachers for a .25 cent raise or freeze their wages and then go ahead and vote themselves in a nice pay raise from the money they didnt pay the teachers or bus drivers
happens in every business out there, to say that is ignorant is ignorance in itself.
and not all companies are publically owned, altho many are.


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

PapawSmith said:


> The mentality that there are a bunch of fat old white guys, smoking cigars, sitting around tables laughing at the hourly workers while they write themselves pay raises is as ignorant as can be. And then to suggest that these guys that supposedly got themselves to the ‘payroll pinnacle’ did so by not understanding the difference between $.50 an hour and the expense of a hired subcontractor is just as absurd. While these companies often pay their executives way too much it is not as simple and silly as this. All of these corporations are publicly held and all of these salary decisions are made by board members that are voted in by the tens of thousands of investors, just like you and me. Most board members have zero to do with the actual corporations at all, other than serving on the board as an elected member. They are voted in place specifically due to their financial expertise in an effort to generate as much profit as possible, once again, for you and me. This “corporate greed” crap is outdated, these are now most all public companies that earn profit for their public investors, like you and me.



ANYBODY on this thread with nearly ANY sort of retirement plan, is one of those “greedy corporate fat cats...” as nearly all publicly traded companies have their stock traded as well as part of this or that fund.....managers/VP’s answer to C levels who answer to board of directors who answer to shareholders (individual investors) who want to see their investments grow. One of, if not the biggest expense of most organizations , is payroll .....


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## Patricio (Feb 2, 2007)

TRIPLE-J said:


> my post had nothing to do with people wanting to make more money, it had to do with the fact that at one time you had 250 people making a certain part of a car and now you have 50 people making the same part and robots doing the rest...yet everyone says its the labor costs that drive the prices of the cars up yet the manufacturers are making them for less labor costs by the labor savings from the 200 people that dont have a job anymore cause of the robots... so where is the money going that is saved???? right in the corporate leaders pockets..


I think the length of auto loans helped out. 20 years ago a 3 year loan was the norm. Now it's 5 and sometimes higher. So they can sell at a higher price as the loan is spread out over more time.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

There was also another issue why cars were made elsewhere.Back in 60's and 70's cars were made pretty poorly by the big 3.Yes powerful,fast and big however the quality was lousy.How was it that toyota,Hohda and ect caught on here in america.They were better quality and lasted longer thats why 3 of 4 vechicles on road are foreign some made here now.Now in todays cars most are really made well quality has improved alot. Also the safety add ons have contributed to to cost starting from seat belts ,look now lane changing alerts ,front and rear alerts ,cameras, air bags.you name it.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

Don't you think, for one minute, those saftey featuters are for you.Those are for the Ins. companys. Yes, they do help, but mainly for the Ins. companys


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Damn me for some memory loss so I can’t provide specifics. However having retired from the big blue oval in a managers position, I do remember that the largest percentage of the cost of a vehicle wasn’t in the actual manufacturing of said vehicle, it was in the advertising and sale of the vehicle.


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## CoonDawg92 (Jun 1, 2016)

bad luck said:


> ANYBODY on this thread with nearly ANY sort of retirement plan, is one of those “greedy corporate fat cats...” as nearly all publicly traded companies have their stock traded as well as part of this or that fund.....managers/VP’s answer to C levels who answer to board of directors who answer to shareholders (individual investors) who want to see their investments grow. One of, if not the biggest expense of most organizations , is payroll .....


Now we are getting closer to what I personally think is the source of the problem. These retirement funds and other institutional investors are the major stockholders now, not individual investors like 20 years ago. The balance of duty for corporations has shifted heavily away from employees and much more toward shareholders since this began to occur.
In my opinion that balance needs to shift back a reasonable amount.


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## MIGHTY (Sep 21, 2013)

Specwar said:


> Damn me for some memory loss so I can’t provide specifics. However having retired from the big blue oval in a managers position, I do remember that the largest percentage of the cost of a vehicle wasn’t in the actual manufacturing of said vehicle, it was in the advertising and sale of the vehicle.


 I’ve always been curious to know myself. What does it cost for one of those companies to build say one of those big crew cab dually pick up trucks that sell for $80k.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Rethinking it I probably should have worded it advertising and marketing, not sales as sales would be inclusive.
I’m reaching a little here because I’ve been retired for over 15 years, but I would venture to say one of “those” vehicles you mentioned would have cost about 35-40% of the sale price to manufacture.


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