# My blackhorn 209 misfired again today



## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Went out before daylight this morning. Was cold, but actually a beautiful morning for deer hunting.
Took my buddy with me who has only killed 1 deer. Let him use my tc omega loaded with 90 gr BH209. The gun was clean, breechplug cleaned with 1/8 drill bit and blown out with air compressor. Shot two primers before loading last night.... muzzle flash through the barrel and it blew the snow as a clear gun should. Brand new Winchester shotgun primers. The BH was bought last year, stored in original keg in metal box in my attached garage. He had 3 misfires at one doe this morning.
I have been using BH 209 for around 7-8 years, I was using it when it was hard to find. 5 or 6 years ago I was using BH during a wet and snowy muzzleloader season, had electrical tape over my barrel. Had a 40 yard shot at a 140 class buck and I miss fired then too. I wrote that off on wet conditions, am I to blame today’s misfires on sub-zero temps?
I have recommended that others try it, I’ve read posts on here of people praising it as if nothing compares to it and someone even said”never a misdfire” I always take what I hear or read with a grain of salt. Well..,,,, I’ve shot more deer with my old cva Hawken hammer gun with goex real black powder and had less issues during actual hunting conditions.
At the range, I absolutely love the BH 209, however I became somewhat of a sceptic today for its performance in the field.
We know going in that the BH is more difficult to ignite than pyrodex or Goex as it requires hotter ignition primers and #11 caps are a no-no. Some guns even require a special 209 Breech plug for ignition.
Has anyone else that had been using BH 209 for a few years had experiences, either good or bad in inclimate weather?.... and if the misfires were due to being last years powder, or not perfect storage, I’ve never had that issue either goex or pyrodex.
For the rest of this year, I’m using pyrodex in my omega, I will just have to swab between every shot..... but that’s better than misfires.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

Have never had a misfire but last year with nearly the same conditions as this year, extreme cold and snow on the ground, I did have a slow fire which was similar to a flintlock with too much powder in the pan. I don't know how well the BH 209 stores for a long time. Mine was over a year old. But that said, I've had so many missed shots with trip 7 and others that I'll take the one time as acceptable. Might have even been something I did. Oh by the way did you ever enlarge the flash hole on the barrel end of the plug, if not there's your trouble. They are typically about 20 thousands need to be closer to 27 for the BH 209.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have never experienced a misfire in the one gun I use it in but I also can't say I've ever shot it in the low temps we have today.


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## jmyers8 (Aug 2, 2013)

We also had a misfire today next shot was fine.. I was Thinkin the cold too..


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

Man that stinks
I've been using for 6/7 years too and never had a problem 
Sounds like you did everything right with storage and cleaning the gun
But I'm not sure about the two fouling shots
I would guess even the 209's put some fouling in your breech plug
I have a cva and had to switch the breech plugs before I could my to work with BH


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

jmyers8 said:


> We also had a misfire today next shot was fine.. I was Thinkin the cold too..


Jmyerd is the only other response who actually shot today and he had issues as well
I’m thinking Bh 209 don’t like sub zero temps, or even real cold temps. When I think about it, at the range last week I had 2 or 3 unexplainable hangfires in succession. It was around 15 degrees. I hadnt Had a hangfire since I learned to clean breechplug properly. Before now I’d never had a reason to go to the range with it zero outside.

And saugernut. 209 gunks up my breechplug real bad. I use 1/8 drill bit (by hand)to cut crud out with each cleaning. 
Will ponder the idea of altering my breechplug,


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## M R DUCKS (Feb 20, 2010)

I believe BH does not have a "shelf life" that was one of it's selling points...
can anyone confirm?


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## halfrack (Oct 13, 2004)

I haven’t had any problems yet with BH yet. I have the gun out in my truck with the powder so it will all be the same temperature for tomorrow. I didn’t hunt today but will be out all day tomorrow. I also have the CVA accura with the 209 breech plug.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Is you breech plug designed for BH209 and what primer?

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/

http://bh209hunter.blogspot.com/2011/12/cold-weather-ignition.html


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Winchester shotgun primers.
Bh209 site fAQ suggests if an omega is hangfiring it’s a dirty BP
They give a lot of specs and details on how a breechplug should be made in order to ignite their product.
maybe I will call and ask if they have actually tested in sub zero weather. These are extreme conditions.
Lundy from that 2nd site you sent me it looks like that guy was having cold ignition issues as well, before he switched Breech plugs. Thanks for taking the time to find and post it.
I just posted on a Michigan outdoor forum too. They hunt in extreme cold a lot more than we do and should be more guys who have actually shot BH 209 in extreme cold. Heck, before today, I’d never deer hunted with it -below zero without a wind chill factor. Again, with hardly any wind it wasn’t that bad!


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

From the second link

"_Yesterday morning (12-5-11), in preparation of a hunt on this ranch next week, I decided to get in a morning of cold weather shooting here in western Montana, just to insure that the rifle and load continue to produce the degree of accuracy I've been gettng all fall. The temperature here in Missoula was right at 6 degrees above zero. All summer and during early fall, I had been using the Federal-Fusion *"Muzzleloading"* primers for ignition with Blackhorn 209. Before installation of a redesigned breech plug for my Knight .50 DISC Extreme (Long Range Hunter) and .50 Mountaineer, *I came to realize that the only way to get positive ignition was to shoot a MAGNUM No. 209 primer - such as the CCI 209M or the Federal 209A."*_


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

I used CCI 209 magnums. I have been shooting in these temps sighting in and hunting today. They worked great with BH


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have hunted below zero but my gun is not below zero. It is only below zero outside my blind. It was still 50-60 degress inside so is was not really cold weather hunting like hunting out in the elemnets all day.

I use federal 209A in my smokeless guns


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Good info guys. Will try the cci mag primers after the muzzleloader season(on a real cold day)Wanting to experiment with creating my own sabot/bullet combos too. For now it’s pyrodex or goex. Fired 2 rounds with pyrodex today in the yard, no ignition issues.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

.


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## jmyers8 (Aug 2, 2013)

I guess I should of clarified we were using 2 50 grain pyrodex pellets not loose powder but still none the less had a mis fire


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

I did a test with BH 209 today. I reloaded with BH 209 yesterday around 5:00 as soon as I shot a deer just in case he wasn't as dead as I thought he was. When I walked up to him he was very dead so I unprimed my gun, tagged him, got my truck, got to gutting the deer. After I got done gutting it was dark and very cold. My gun was all frosted up around the chamber and reciever, probably from heating up at the shot and then condensating as it cooled. I put the gun in the case. I then put it in a heated environment for 2 hours. Then I put it outside in the truck overnight. I shot it to clear it at 1:00 today. It fired off like I had just loaded it. CVA BH breech plug, 95 grains BH and CCI magnum 209 primer.


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## JeffVanhoose (Jan 8, 2018)

Harry1959 said:


> Went out before daylight this morning. Was cold, but actually a beautiful morning for deer hunting.
> 
> 
> Muddy said:
> ...





Harry1959 said:


> Went out before daylight this morning. Was cold, but actually a beautiful morning for deer hunting.
> Took my buddy with me who has only killed 1 deer. Let him use my tc omega loaded with 90 gr BH209. The gun was clean, breechplug cleaned with 1/8 drill bit and blown out with air compressor. Shot two primers before loading last night.... muzzle flash through the barrel and it blew the snow as a clear gun should. Brand new Winchester shotgun primers. The BH was bought last year, stored in original keg in metal box in my attached garage. He had 3 misfires at one doe this morning.
> I have been using BH 209 for around 7-8 years, I was using it when it was hard to find. 5 or 6 years ago I was using BH during a wet and snowy muzzleloader season, had electrical tape over my barrel. Had a 40 yard shot at a 140 class buck and I miss fired then too. I wrote that off on wet conditions, am I to blame today’s misfires on sub-zero temps?
> I have recommended that others try it, I’ve read posts on here of people praising it as if nothing compares to it and someone even said”never a misdfire” I always take what I hear or read with a grain of salt. Well..,,,, I’ve shot more deer with my old cva Hawken hammer gun with goex real black powder and had less issues during actual hunting conditions.
> ...


I have an Omega use Triple 7 powder not the pellets never had that problem


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## JeffVanhoose (Jan 8, 2018)

Harry1959 said:


> Went out before daylight this morning. Was cold, but actually a beautiful morning for deer hunting.
> Took my buddy with me who has only killed 1 deer. Let him use my tc omega loaded with 90 gr BH209. The gun was clean, breechplug cleaned with 1/8 drill bit and blown out with air compressor. Shot two primers before loading last night.... muzzle flash through the barrel and it blew the snow as a clear gun should. Brand new Winchester shotgun primers. The BH was bought last year, stored in original keg in metal box in my attached garage. He had 3 misfires at one doe this morning.
> I have been using BH 209 for around 7-8 years, I was using it when it was hard to find. 5 or 6 years ago I was using BH during a wet and snowy muzzleloader season, had electrical tape over my barrel. Had a 40 yard shot at a 140 class buck and I miss fired then too. I wrote that off on wet conditions, am I to blame today’s misfires on sub-zero temps?
> I have recommended that others try it, I’ve read posts on here of people praising it as if nothing compares to it and someone even said”never a misdfire” I always take what I hear or read with a grain of salt. Well..,,,, I’ve shot more deer with my old cva Hawken hammer gun with goex real black powder and had less issues during actual hunting conditions.
> ...


I use Triple 7 never had a problem


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## JeffVanhoose (Jan 8, 2018)

JeffVanhoose said:


> I have an Omega use Triple 7 powder not the pellets never had that problem


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Saugernut said:


> I would guess even the 209's put some fouling in your breech plug


There's an article on the prbullet website that speaks to this. He looked at the amount of fouling he realized from true 209 shotgun primers, and found it excessive. Now, this was for igniting black powder or trip7, not BH 209, but the lesson may carry forward. 

A true 209 shotgun primer is nearly 1/4" in diameter, or .250". You're trying to shove all that charge through a hole that might be, at best, .030" in diameter. Lots of left over combustibles to foul things up! 

This led him to design the "vari-flame" ignition to allow MLers to use large pistol or small rifle primers. Again, I will say that this does NOT address BH 209 powder!

Since I have decided to experiment with BH 209 in the Spring and Summer, I will be placing a call to Traditions Firearms to see if I need a different breech plug or not.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

The only way to know if your gun, powder, breechplug combination will have issues in such extreme conditions is to have gun out in the elements a couple hours and shoot it. Since I learned to clean my breechplug properly(drill bit) I’ve had zero hangfires or missfires with a clean gun and mild, dry weather.
I figure if I’m going to hunt in it in extreme cold(which most people stayed home sat am) I am going to bundle up and field test it this winter with my current Winchester 209 vs cci mag primers.
Thanks for all your replies


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## halfrack (Oct 13, 2004)

Well I shot 4 times today and also in the morning when it was -7 degrees. I shoot a CVA accura with 100 grn BH 209 with CCI 209M primers . It went off every time and load the other 3 Barnes Bullets great. I did kill 2 does today with it. I was hunting coshocton cold day today.







yes she was tagged properly also . Didn’t take pic of other doe. We saw a lot of deer all day. Plus missed one at 135 yds early morning. Both deer went 10 yds and dropped.


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## slimdaddy45 (Aug 27, 2007)

Do you take you gun in the house at nite while its still charged it may be sweating and getting the powder damp if you are just a suggestion but that can cause it


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks halftrack, exactly the kind of info I’m seeking. How many times did you shoot sat am? And congrats on a successful day!
I load mine in the house and leave it in the car or unheated garage once the gun gets cold. Did you read Muddys post about testing the “leave your gun in the cold “theory ? It’s on page 1.


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## Junebug2320 (Apr 23, 2010)

Hunted Sat 2.5 hours and Sunday 3hrs. CVA Optima 2pellets and an unknown 209 primer. Gun was in an un-heated garage overnight Sat/Sun and fired no problems Sunday evening. I always fire a primer prior to loading and i clean the BP with a straight pin. Also, I make sure i can see daylight from both ends.


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## halfrack (Oct 13, 2004)

Harry1959 said:


> Thanks halftrack, exactly the kind of info I’m seeking. How many times did you shoot sat am? And congrats on a successful day!
> I load mine in the house and leave it in the car or unheated garage once the gun gets cold. Did you read Muddys post about testing the “leave your gun in the cold “theory ? It’s on page 1.


I shot 3 times in the morning with no problems . Plus left the gun in the truck last night outside and shot it this morning and cleaned it so I will have a fresh load for tomorrow or later today. I didn’t hunt Saturday just Sunday so far.


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## ohihunter2014 (Feb 19, 2017)

I would bet you need a blackhorn plug or use the drill bit to get the carbon out. check out modernmuzzleloader those guys are gurus about BH209. I use cci magnum 209 and shot over 20 shots Saturday the coldest its been and no issue.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Harry1959 said:


> Thanks halftrack, exactly the kind of info I’m seeking. How many times did you shoot sat am? And congrats on a successful day!
> I load mine in the house and leave it in the car or unheated garage once the gun gets cold. Did you read Muddys post about testing the “leave your gun in the cold “theory ? It’s on page 1.


My Uncle did this, and he was shooting a center fire rifle in PA! His concern was more about the firing pin freezing up. Took a friend of his hunting who had that exact thing happen to him and it cost him the buck of a lifetime! 

Once his gun got cold, it stayed cold! 

As far as clearing the flash hole, I found my tool quite by accident. It's the stem on a "Bobbin Threader" for fly tying. It fits the hole in the breech plug exactly. I tried the straightened paper clip, but the little "micro bends" in it can cause it to hang up! That's how tight the tolerances are.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Hand driven drill bit is a must with my gun and BH 209. I learned this several years ago. I assume that all breech plugs get the hard buildup and fairly rapid buildup when using bh209. I’d think if you haven’t needed a drill bit, you haven’t shot Bh209 for long. For tc its 1/8 and makes cleaning that end a breeze.
I don’t think they even make a special BH 209 Breech plug for the omega, it’s a cold weather issue,
Anyway, Lundy posted this quote from a cold weather hunter in Montana who was writing about using BH 209 on 6 degree temps

_*came to realize that the only way to get positive ignition was to shoot a MAGNUM No. 209primer - such as the CCI 209M or federal 209A”..... end of quote *_

* Like me the writer hadn’t had any ignition issues in moderate temps. Maybe a BP designed for BH 209 allows for better ignition in extreme cold. However, to my knowledge, there is no special BH 209 Breech plug made for an omega. So, as I said before, my next step is some cci mag primers and a trip to the range in near zero temps........ sorry about all the bold type, I don’t know how to turn it off....lol......good luck hunting tomorrow, it should be a great day for it, here in SW ohio*


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Harry1959 said:


> Hand driven drill bit is a must with my gun and BH 209. I learned this several years ago. I assume that all breech plugs get the hard buildup and fairly rapid buildup when using bh209. I’d think if you haven’t needed a drill bit, you haven’t shot Bh209 for long. For tc its 1/8 and makes cleaning that end a breeze.
> I don’t think they even make a special BH 209 Breech plug for the omega, it’s a cold weather issue,
> Anyway, Lundy posted this quote from a cold weather hunter in Montana who was writing about using BH 209 on 6 degree temps
> 
> ...


Yep! Cleaning both the flash hole and flash channel is a must for proper ignition.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

OK, now I'm starting to get a little confused. Everything I've read so far touts how "clean" BH 209 burns. 15 shots between barrel swabs and all that. Yet, where does all the BP fouling come from? 

Wouldn't that primarily come from the primer? Even a "hot" primer like a magnum or 209A? Or maybe especially so!

I'd be leery of running a drill bit through my BP unless I knew that the bit was sized to the exact diameter of the flash channel, and only removed fouling and not metal! 

As I said before, I'll be calling Traditions to see what they have to say. My buddy just bought a Striker Fire and talked to them. They said that their "pro staff", or just a bunch of guys who like Traditions MLer's, all shoot BH 209. They never mentioned anything about a different BP.

However, I shoot a Pursuit Pro, which is an older model and has a different BP. So, I'll be calling to see what they recommend.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

thinking mistake was that you fired two primers prior to hunting... I almost never have misfires with my muzzleloader ... the few times that I have, is when I fired off a primer prior to loading... i have learned not to do that ever again...it is not the cold weather, subzero temps will absolutely not cause a misfire..."Testing" the gun by firing off a primer prior to loading can clog the flash channel


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## halfrack (Oct 13, 2004)

I see lot of people fire a couple primers before before they load it. I never have done that at all with any muzzy loader I have from my side-locks to my inlines. The only time I had a misfire was when I was a newbie 20 some years I brought the gun inside once then back out in the morning.


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## tagalong09 (Jul 25, 2012)

i have used out of the same can of b/h 209 now for the last 4 years, down to the last 5 shots. i use fed 209 shotgun primers. i have shot it in zero weather and in pouring rain. never a miss fire or a hang fire. in cold weather i temper the barrel in advance buy putting it out in the cold before 2 shot fouling of the barrel. i never take it into a warm area until i am done hunting. go to web site for PRECISION BULLETS and read the data there it could help ya out. tagalong


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

thinking mistake was that you fired two primers prior tohunting..
9left...... if this was a problem I would misfire every time I shoot my gun at the range(not just in extreme cold weather)because I always point my muzzle into leafs or snow and watch it blow to make sure everything is dry and clear before loading, and I’ve been doing this for 30 years. Nevet had a 1st shot misfire before. I not only fire primers, I almost always shoot my gun Once before loading for hunting. a lot of muzzleloaders will sometimes have a flyer on the first shot of a totally clean barrel. A slightly fouled barrel shoots better..... IMO
Buckeye... BH 209 is extremely clean, no swabbing between shots. maybe all the crud built up is from the hot primers that BH209 requires? it’s really not an issues as long as you clean the BP. If I have a hangfire under normal conditions, it’s my BP. And the build up is real hard, that’s why BH 209 site says to clean the primer end with a drill bit, their site also tells you what size to use for different guns.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

And buckeye......when using the drill bit you turn it by hand, you can feel it cutting through the crud..... and you are correct ...BH 209 site says the build up is from the primers.


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## ufaquaoiler (Jan 14, 2010)

i have the thompson center impact and the only time ive ever had a misfire was with a dirty barrel after several shots while at the range using pyrodex and winchester primers. ive used it hunting in the cold in ohio and down south in much warmer weather for deer/hogs and never had any problems.


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## Burkcarp1 (Dec 24, 2016)

How many times can someone shoot BH209 without cleaning Bp? Let's say at the range?


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

back in the day i used a white mlder and it recommended shooting a squib load through the gun before loading. i always did this and never had a misfire. I've been firing 2 caps through my guns ever since i switched to inline guns and cant say I've had trouble with misfires. i always fire a couple at the range pointing it down range and it has always fired for me. 

i have tried a few different powders and loads with my guns. i tried the white hot powder and loved it until i hunted in cold weather with it. i did get my deer but when i shot it sounded like i only had a small load of powder. and it took a few shots to finally get the deer down. I've used black powder, pyrodex pellets and now use triple seven and I'm very pleased with it.
sherman


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## halfrack (Oct 13, 2004)

Burkcarp1 said:


> How many times can someone shoot BH209 without cleaning Bp? Let's say at the range?


I shot 15 times this year at the range with bh209 with no problems loading or accuracy. Then i cleaned the gun and shot again to see make sure everything hit the same place. It was dead on.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Have always shot a fouling shot to foul bore on my ml'er prior to start of season. 
Then run a dry patch through barrel.
Pull nipple or breech plug doing a thorough cleaning. Shooting BH in inline, the BP gets pulled and soaked in Hoppes, then the flash channel is cleaned with 1/8" drill bit(T/C Pro Hunter BP) then the flash hole is cleaned with torch tip cleaner. Use compressed air to blow out.
If using cap lock shooting Pyrodex, nipple gets pulled, soaked in T/C #13, cleaned with pipe cleaner and flash hole cleaned with torch tip cleaner. Use compressed air to blow out.
The thread on the BP(or nipple) are slightly lubed with Never Seize and re-installed.
This routine has always worked for me as far as misfires goes while hunting regardless of weather using BH with Remington STS primers(have used them for years in all weather without issue but must say the temps this year was colder than most).

I did have a hang fire on Sat. which, knowing the extreme cold, I contribute either to an error or laziness on my part.
My rifle and all possibles had been outside since early Friday. With it being as cold as it was, I believe I should have run a dry patch down bbl. and pulled BP and insured it was good and dry and not frosted up before I loaded it that evening. I also believe that after drying and loading the night before, I should have put the cut off finger of a latex glove over bbl. and the leather moisture shroud around BP area to keep as much moisture out as possible. Either that, or waited till Sat. morning to load and insuring bore and BP was free of frost then. Considering it was -12 Sat. morning, that would have probably been best.

Saturday evening, when I pulled trigger for 1st time since loading Fri., had my hang fire which ultimately resulted in a hit, but lost deer. 
I reloaded, in the field Sat evening. Rifle left outside with Sunday morning temp at-15. Sunday evening that shot fired well.

Again, there is no doubt in my mind the BP was not fouled with powder residue either in the flash channel or hole. 
This leaves me with two options. 
As stated above, correct error on my part as far as loading procedures...or going to a 'magnum' specific primer.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Just got off the phone with Don from western powders, who makes BH 209. He says my missfire is in fact due to cold temps, he said my Winchester primers are very good primers in moderate temps, but not hot enough in extreme cold.
Don’s answer is to switch to cci mag primers if using in extreme cold. He also suggested to a keep primers warm would help. Not so sure that would be doable when hunting since your primer has to be in the gun.
As I said a few posts back, my next step is to go to range in extreme cold and compare my Winchester to the CCI mag primers. don from western powders assured me the cci mag primer is the answer.
Thanks to all for sharing your cold weather muzzleloader experience.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Harry1959 said:


> And buckeye......when using the drill bit you turn it by hand, you can feel it cutting through the crud..... and you are correct ...BH 209 site says the build up is from the primers.


Ah, good info to know! I figured it might be the primers. I will be talking to both the BH 209 folks as well as the Traditions folks before I make the change.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

This thread has me rethinking. I have several friends that rave about shooting bh 209 power. Two of them had issues with their breech holes and rifle barrels fouling. My current ml has an open breech so I can not shoot bh. Was actually considering another ml to try it.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Flathead76 said:


> This thread has me rethinking. I have several friends that rave about shooting bh 209 power. Two of them had issues with their breech holes and rifle barrels fouling. My current ml has an open breech so I can not shoot bh. Was actually considering another ml to try it.


Flathead, a buddy of mine that was with us in our group over the weekend had trouble with his first shot on his ml too. He was shooting White Hots from a freshly opened box of pellets. His shot sounded as though only one pellet went off. 
IMO, I'd bet that with our colder than normal Ohio temps this year, those that swabbed and loaded their rifle on Friday and left them out overnight had more issues than those that swabbed and loaded Sat morning regardless of powder used. I have no actual proof but would also bet that many of those issues were cause by frost in flash holes.

FWIW, out of all the powders I've used over the years BH is by far the best. Have been using BH since it came out, probably shoot a couple hundred rds a year between the projectiles I buy and the various home casts lead ones a fella sends me to test out. The issue I had this weekend was the first time I ever had a problem. And as I stated previously, I feel with the extreme, abnormally cold temps we had this weekend, there were a few things I could have done in my loading procedure to help eleminate my issue. 

Also, though again, I've never had any issues using the Rem STS primers as they are rated fairly hot when it comes to shotgun primers as a whole, per a conversation with a fella at Barnes Bullets yesterday that shoots BH and, as a rule, is used to hunting in colder weather than we have here, he stated he uses CCI 'magnum' shotgun primers which are hotter yet than the Rem STS's, he has never had an issue. 
Sooo...Ill be making a few changes this year. Thanks to Lundy and everyone praising and showing pics of perfectly 'rose petal' expanded Barnes bullets, I'll be going to them. Also, changing my primers to CCI magnums just in case we have abnormally cold weather again.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Flathead76 said:


> This thread has me rethinking.


Me too. I was even looking at the bh 209 powder the other day and almost bought some.

Right now I shoot a cheap little Rossi ML with 2- 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a Winchester 209 primer. I use TC mag express sabots with either a Hornady XTP 240 or 300 grain bullet. Both shoot well but the 300 groups just a little lower at 50 yards. Most of my hunting shots are under 60 yards but I did kill 1 deer at 90 yards.
This year (like usual)I loaded the ML before gun season and since I didn't fire it, I pulled the primer and put it in the closet. I took the gun out of the closet the day I went out ML hunting and put in a primer.
I've used this set up for quite a few years and so far when ever I hunted with this set up I put the cross hairs on the deer, I squeeze the trigger, the gun goes boom and the deer falls over. 
New thoughts tell me, this works so why switch now.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

crappiedude said:


> Me too. I was even looking at the bh 209 powder the other day and almost bought some.
> 
> Right now I shoot a cheap little Rossi ML with 2- 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a Winchester 209 primer. I use TC mag express sabots with either a Hornady XTP 240 or 300 grain bullet. Both shoot well but the 300 groups just a little lower at 50 yards. Most of my hunting shots are under 60 yards but I did kill 1 deer at 90 yards.
> This year (like usual)I loaded the ML before gun season and since I didn't fire it, I pulled the primer and put it in the closet. I took the gun out of the closet the day I went out ML hunting and put in a primer.
> ...


When it comes to muzzleloaders I am still stuck in the Stone Age. Still clean my gun in the sink with hot soapy water then wipe off the entire gun using bore butter. Always dread cleaning the damn thing after every season. Think that I have been shooting the same rig for 17-18 years now. Thing still looks brand new. As far as powder I have shot goex 2f for most of that time. Loading a 3rd or forth round straight up sucks even when swabbing between shots. Did try triple 7 powder around 10 years ago. The gun loved it. Clean up was easy and could load it easy. Reason that I went back was because that I discovered that triple 7 loses pressure over time. Went to check the zero one time before the season and could not hit a 4x4 sheet of plywood at 50 yards. After that I went back into the Stone Age and have been stuck there ever since. The gun always goes off and never moves shooting 2" high at 50 yards every time. This is probably the reason that I have a hard time justifying buying a new gun.


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## Burkcarp1 (Dec 24, 2016)

BH powder might be cleaner but it sounds to me like it's a little finicky.Have had no problems at all with triple 7 cold or not.Was thinking about trying some BH but undecided now.Like crappiedude said if it works why switch.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Flathead76 said:


> When it comes to muzzleloaders I am still stuck in the Stone Age. Still clean my gun in the sink with hot soapy water then wipe off the entire gun using bore butter. Always dread cleaning the damn thing after every season. Think that I have been shooting the same rig for 17-18 years now. Thing still looks brand new. As far as powder I have shot goex 2f for most of that time. Loading a 3rd or forth round straight up sucks even when swabbing between shots. Did try triple 7 powder around 10 years ago. The gun loved it. Clean up was easy and could load it easy. Reason that I went back was because that I discovered that triple 7 loses pressure over time. Went to check the zero one time before the season and could not hit a 4x4 sheet of plywood at 50 yards. After that I went back into the Stone Age and have been stuck there ever since. The gun always goes off and never moves shooting 2" high at 50 yards every time. This is probably the reason that I have a hard time justifying buying a new gun.


I know the feeling on the soap and water cleanup. Still do the same with the cap locks. Just don't do it in the sink. Bucket/pan of boiling water/Dawn dish washing liquid with a small piece of vacuum hose attached to nipple running into hot/soapy water. Draw water up through nipple into barrel using patched cleaning jag on rod. Push rod down...water goes back into bucket. Repeat with rod until clean. Not too bad but ya need heavy gloves cause the bbl gets hot. After clean, run dry patch through bbl and dry outside of bbl., remove nipple, turn bbl down on house register to completely dry. Usually/hopefully rifle is well dry before heavy bbl completely cools off cause I like to bore butter inside and out while still fairly warm. Let cool off, Never Seez nipple threads and re-inst.


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## gumbygold (Apr 9, 2013)

They make BH209 primers that burn slower specifically for that powder.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

fastwater said:


> I know the feeling on the soap and water cleanup. Still do the same with the cap locks. Just don't do it in the sink. Bucket/pan of boiling water/Dawn dish washing liquid with a small piece of vacuum hose attached to nipple running into hot/soapy water. Draw water up through nipple into barrel using patched cleaning jag on rod. Push rod down...water goes back into bucket. Repeat with rod until clean. Not too bad but ya need heavy gloves cause the bbl gets hot. After clean, run dry patch through bbl and dry outside of bbl., remove nipple, turn bbl down on house register to completely dry. Usually/hopefully rifle is well dry before heavy bbl completely cools off cause I like to bore butter inside and out while still fairly warm. Let cool off, Never Seez nipple threads and re-inst.


The older I get the more that I get stuck in my ways. Currently looking for a flintlock to use next season. Wanna use something without caps or primers. Have hunted and taken game with every style of ml including shotguns but not a flintlock.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Flathead76 said:


> When it comes to muzzleloaders I am still stuck in the Stone Age. *Still clean my gun in the sink with hot soapy water then wipe off the entire gun using bore butter. * Always dread cleaning the damn thing after every season. Think that I have been shooting the same rig for 17-18 years now. Thing still looks brand new. As far as powder I have shot goex 2f for most of that time. Loading a 3rd or forth round straight up sucks even when swabbing between shots.


You have to be my double. LOL at least when it comes to black powder.
On my caplocks I love Goex 2f. My buddy shoots a flintlock and this past summer he "borrowed" my last can of 2f that I had. It still had a price tag on it for $8.29. I bought several cans at a close out years ago and that was the last of it. The only reason for considering something different is he is having a hard time locating 2f black powder locally. I hope we can by some by summer because I want to hunt next year with my 45 cal. Ky long rifle I made from a kit back in the early 80's.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

So at least I have company in the Stone Age. Most gun shops can order goex powder for you. Last year I shot the last out of my old can. It was a metal can btw. Poured the new powder into the old can because I liked the old one.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Flathead76 said:


> Most gun shops can order goex powder for you.


Thanks, I'll have to check it out. My friend shoots some competitions with his flintlock and he's hasn't located any yet. I'll let him know.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Yup my old cva hawakens loves the goex too, 70-75 grains BP, round ball or xtp, iron sites, great 50 yard groups. My eyes aren’t good enough past 75 yards without a scope. And if it’s not wet the Goex goes Boom!
I bought my last Goex , last year out of a guys basement in Xenia, Ohio. None of the local stores carry it anymore.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Actually I’ve probably never shot the goex In sub zero temps, so I don’t really know how it does. Lol


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

I shot black powder and then Pyrodex for 25 years and killed plenty of deer with both. I never wanted to bother with the latest/greatest technology. This year I needed to add 50 yards to my effective range based on deer patterns where I hunt, so I needed to squeeze more accuracy from my rifle. I also was unhappy with my Hornady bullets that shot accurately, but had poor terminal ballistics. I decided to start from scratch with an all new load. I had fun researching, shooting, and tweaking my set up. I ended up with a more accurate and better performing combination. All of my range shooting was done in temperatures of 10-15 degrees. I never had a problem with misfires after I got a CVA BH breech plug and CCI Magnum primers. All of my reading pointed to using CCI Magnum primers, so that is what I used. It sure is nice to be able to shoot a bunch of loads without cleaning the rifle. I also don't miss the black mess on my fingers and gun that come with most powders. Clean up is a breeze. Accuracy is outstanding. I will probably stick with it.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

My gun hunting has been almost exclusively with muzzleloaders since the first Knight MK-85 was introduced in 1985. Over the 32 years since I have shot I think every powder available in both loose and pellet form and there is zero chance that I would ever go back to any other powder available today other than BH209 in any MZ isn't designed to shoot smokeless powder.

When you evaluate performance (ballistics), accuracy through load consistency (granular size), corrosive quality, fouling, smoke index, for me, the way I hunt, with the guns I hunt with it is not even a remotely close decision. Over the last 32 years of trial and error (a lot of error) I have a pretty well defined list of what I know works the best for a powder, bullet, sabot, optics, primers, etc. But that is just me, to each his own. If someone is happy hunting deer with a couple of pellets and some powerbelts more power to them, it just isn't for me.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

^^^Same here and....Agree!^^^


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Good posts above. I actually sold my T/C .50 Cal Hawken flintlock to my buddy a few years ago, once I decided to go with an inline. Last Summer he went to the range to sight it in and discovered something disturbing. We're all getting older, and he found that his astigmatism had gotten so bad that he couldn't focus on the target, post, and ramp at the same time! 

If he focused on the target, he couldn't see the post and ramp. If he focused on the post and ramp, he couldn't see the target! He decided he needed a scope. He briefly considered having the Hawken drilled and tapped, then quickly discarded the idea. He told me later that he couldn't imagine anything more bizarre than a flintlock with a scope on it! 

His buddy is a federally licensed firearms dealer who's main focus is older SxS shotguns, but he can find anything. Went whole hog and bought a Traditions Striker Fire and mounted a Leupold Vari-X II 3x9 on it. 

An in line was a whole new experience for him, despite having shot percussion caps for 30+ years. We got him shooting silver dollar size groups at 100 and that's where we left it since the season was upon us.


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