# Deerfield looking into legal action on Berlin Lake levels



## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

The residents in and around the Berlin Lake area are fed up and are ready to fight.

They are simply asking for a 2 month delay in the draining of Berlin Lake. Most people do not realize that the US Army Corps typically pull drain plug on our lake the first week of July. Is it too much to ask that they wait until Sept? Apparently it is.

http://www.the-review.com/news/20180822/deerfield-trustees-ok-exploring-legal-action-on-berlin-lake


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## brad crappie (Sep 29, 2015)

Stealing tax payers resources !!


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## Daego Doug (May 31, 2009)

They will be fighting the govt,


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

_"Originally built as a runoff for rivers outside of the Pittsburgh area, Berlin Lake is one of several reservoirs managed by the Corps as a mechanism to control water levels downstream." _


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

Haven't been on any lakes inland since May. Did they draw down any? Haven't been by ladue in a minute


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## coach76 (May 27, 2011)

What they have said for at least 25 years is that its a computer program that dictates this, I ask cant it be adjusted, their reply was no. I am sure it will take many years before this problem is taken care of. Or it might remain as is because of red tape and more red tape, your dealing with the Feds


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

set-the-drag said:


> Haven't been on any lakes inland since May. Did they draw down any? Haven't been by ladue in a minute


East Branch is about empty.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

My question is this. Is this the normal "Winter draw down" or is it due to "water calls" from downstream? The Mahoning flows into the Beaver which flows into the Ohio which carries a lot of commercial barge traffic. Just wondering.


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## crestliner TS (Jun 8, 2012)

set-the-drag said:


> Haven't been on any lakes inland since May. Did they draw down any? Haven't been by ladue in a minute


Ladue is down about 2 ft. I got skunked there saturday using minnows 422 and 44 bridge. No one was catching anything.


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## Fat Bill (Jan 16, 2006)

Berlin was built around 1941. Reasons for its existence are for flood control, flow augmentation, and others. Recreation was about seventh on the list. I am aware of the fight to keep water in the lake during the summer since I lived out there in the early 1970's. Its a fight that has been ongoing. I hope it gets resolved in favor of the folks who live there, earn a living from bait sales, and the people who want to fish there. However, I have my doubts that it will be resolved in my lifetime.


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

I will preface this post with me saying I am truly a supporter for the small businesses in and around Deerfield and will continue to do so until December or so, but the first time a tropical depression comes through ohio, which happens about once every 4-7 year, there will be a number of people who flood badly, those unnecessary casualties, both in property and possible human life, will certainly have to fall on those shoulders who wanted to repurpose the lake for their recreational enjoyment. try not to be near-sighted and consider the consequences of various actions.


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## mepps_fisher (May 6, 2009)

How is out there in regards to launching a boat as well as just general navigation?


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

crestliner TS said:


> Ladue is down about 2 ft. I got skunked there saturday using minnows 422 and 44 bridge. No one was catching anything.


Did 44 ramp look like you could still get a boat out?


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

I will say this, and going off memory here, but it's only been about 6 or 7 years (maybe less) that they have been pulling it down this far, at this time of year. As I remember it (those 6 or so years ago and prior to that) the lake would normally be in the neighborhood of 4' down this time of year and just after Labor Day, is when they really started knocking water out of it so they could be ready for the fall rains. 

As of this writing the Corp's web site shows the lake down 7.78' from normal summer pool. 3' of water in that lake makes a big difference in boating and boating saftey. 

Yes it's a Ohio River flow augmentation reservoir, but I can't believe that they're needing that much water in the upper stretches of the Ohio River. Two weeks ago Pittsburgh was having massive rains and flooding, and they dropped Berlin more than a foot in that week. The Corps is also responsible for keeping a minimum flow in the Mahoning River. That is the only reason I can see for them releasing water while Pittsburgh and the surrounding area, were having flooding. 

I know I'd be mad if I were the people that live on that lake, and if I were people that depended on people visiting the lake spending money in my place of business. 

As for it being kept this low in case a tropical depression comes up our way.... ok ...... but, I know that they can move a LOT of water down the Ohio River and the Mahoning river in a hurry. Some years ago my dad and I fished a bass tournament out of Powhattan Point. Saturday, the day before the tournament he and I locked down to the Willow Island pool and found a spot we were going to fish the next day. We locked through tournament morning and found the Willow Island pool was 1 1/2' lower than it was the day prior. 1 1/2' down in a pool that is 35 miles long. That is moving a LOT of water in a short time. 

I've also seen reading for the output of Berlin at 1200 CFS (4 times more than it is currently at) and have heard no reports of flooding on the Mahoning River. Something is up. Unless I am missing something staring me right in the face, I can see no need for that lake to be as low as it has been this time of year, and in recent years. 

Somebody screwed up somewhere.


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## crestliner TS (Jun 8, 2012)

set-the-drag said:


> Did 44 ramp look like you could still get a boat out?


yes, in fact i saw a guy pull his 17 ft flat bottom out. if it was a deep v i don't know if he could have backed down far enough


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## brad crappie (Sep 29, 2015)

Fracking maybe the depleted infrastructure funds!


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

johnboy111711 said:


> the first time a tropical depression comes through ohio, which happens about once every 4-7 year, there will be a number of people who flood badly, those unnecessary casualties, both in property and possible human life, will certainly have to fall on those shoulders who wanted to repurpose the lake for their recreational enjoyment. try not to be near-sighted and consider the consequences of various actions.


Curious if you can point to a single instance of the water in Berlin rising 14 feet due to a single event, particularly in the past 4-7 years? Because that is the current flood holding capacity at today's extreme low water level.

The largest single event increase I can recall was a 6 foot rise (over 4 days) at the end of October 2012 due to the remains of Hurricane Sandy passing through. 

Believe me when I say I understand and appreciate that the primary purpose of Berlin Reservoir is for flood control and downstream water quality as it relates to both industry and the environment. 

But it must be recognized that many things have changed since the dam was constructed in 1942. Almost all of the industry downsteam that once utilized the flow is gone and the water quality of the Mahoning is at the healthiest levels it has been since before the industrial revolution. 

Further, the aggressive nature to which they are lowing it is excessive and unnecessary. Between Milton and Berlin, there is plenty of storage capacity, should the 4-7 year (as you suggest) deluge occur, without literally draining the lake in July.


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

june/july 2003 the water was flowing over the dam. That was the highest recorded water level I believe. Look, everyone has opinions about how other people should do their jobs, I get that. I just don't agree with the majority of you. I, however, can accept that people are wrong. Besides, the way people complain about everything at berlin (too much traffic, too big of boats, can't find fish, can't catch fish, ect) I would assume people would be ecstatic the water was lower, but I guess that is just another excuse people cant catch fish. I'll pray for you all while I'm eating my meals at The Circle.


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

johnboy111711 said:


> june/july 2003 the water was flowing over the dam. That was the highest recorded water level I believe. .... I'll pray for you all while I'm eating my meals at The Circle.


Why must you be so sanctimonious?

So out of 76 years, one time 15 years ago (not every 4-7 years as you suggest) water went over the dam (intended by design). Yet no loss of life and no property damage significant enough to weigh on the shoulders of us heathenous fishermen (including local residents and business owners) who are selfishly asking for a 60 day reprieve.

Better grab your rosary.


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

Ok, I'll bite, humor me with the economic stimulus that the 60 day reprieve will offer.


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

I will challenge every one who has read this or commented on this thread to shout out their local businesses they go to and make a pledge to do more business with them. That honestly, is the issue, people stop at mcdonalds rather than the diner, order baits online or from Walmart rather than the bait store, but snacks at the exxon or BP, rather than the mom and pop shop at the circle. 

I have no effect on any of you, but come fall I buy my bait at Mark's bait and tackle. I eat at either the Circle or Wistful café (now shut down  ) and I buy my snacks and drinks at the local stores and not the gas station. I have launched my boat in December and the water is not to low. All I hear are excuses...


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

johnboy111711 said:


> Ok, I'll bite, humor me with the economic stimulus that the 60 day reprieve will offer.


I doubt Martha at Les's Bait finds much "humor" in this. Lets stop by ask ask her. But we better do it before Sept 2nd. They are closing for the year due to unusually low water levels:

From their FB Page:

" Due to unusual water draw down by the Army Corp
Store will close for the season on September 2
We are sorry for any inconvenience however we hope to see you the spring of 2019
Thank you
Martha
Leslie
Zach & Lexi "

For a guy who likes to brag about his local consumer habits, you must not talk to those people you do business with.

http://www.record-courier.com/news/...sses-on-berlin-lake-fighting-low-water-levels

"Dutch Harbor Marina and Les’ Bait Shop, Berlin Lake’s largest commercial marinas, start seeing negative financial impacts in July. Martha Cobb, owner of Les’ Bait and Marcko Landing, said the water was drawn from the lake so fast last year that customers came back to their boats sitting on dry ground. She said she loses $20,000 a summer because of the receding water levels. Her last good season was in 1998 when the lake had water through Labor Day, she recalled. "

http://www.record-courier.com/news/20171004/low-water-levels-impact-berlin-lake-ecomony

"“We’re going into winter time, which impacts us naturally,” said Dale Perez, co-owner of Circle Restaurant in Deerfield. “By them letting the water out early in August we miss out. This year, we’re in October, but it’s going to be 75 degrees Wednesday. We’re losing more than just the winter months now by them draining the water.”


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

I read the same articles as you, but rather than complain about it, I take my money and do business. 1. Les's has closed in September for a number of years, not just this year. the water level is not significantly lower than other years, at least that I have noticed.
2. Les's and Dutch harbor seem to have a number of people who still dock their boats there every year. If the last great year they had was 1998, then they are either billionaires who love to lose money, or they are somehow still turning a profit. It would seem that the addition of a new state run "free" ramp would hurt their day to day business more, but I couldn't guess what that impact may have.
3. I can't estimate what projected profits may be for the circle, but once again it is packed anytime I stop to grab a bite to eat. maybe it's the hunters and everyone else who keeps them in business.

Look, I can respectfully disagree with you, I just don't see how keeping a few more feet of water will impact these businesses to the extent that they say. Maybe cancelling football season, cancelling hunting season, and acknowledging global warming will extend summer enough for people. 

on another note, they draw down west branch, ladue, along with a plethora of lakes from new York to texas. Why is winter draw down only an issue at Berlin?


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

johnboy111711 said:


> Look, I can respectfully disagree with you.


Thank you....


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

louisvillefisherman said:


> Thank you....


Thank you for the water levels widget. I use it before I go out there. You do a great job of promoting your lake. Keep up the good work.


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

johnboy111711 said:


> on another note, they draw down west branch, ladue, along with a plethora of lakes from new York to texas. Why is winter draw down only an issue at Berlin?


West Branch (Kirwan) is down 2ft, Berlin is down almost 9ft. Big difference?

Ladue is run by ODNR and we are talking about Ohio, not NY or TX.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion as well as the right to respecfully share it. I have many opinions that I am in the minority with, just ask my wife.


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

johnboy111711 said:


> Thank you for the water levels widget. I use it before I go out there. You do a great job of promoting your lake. Keep up the good work.


Thank you very much I appreciate the kind words. Berlin is like a second home to me and I just want to do what I can to help others enjoy this amazing body of water.


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## brad crappie (Sep 29, 2015)

Two years ago the water in October was just fine for fishermen the northeast crappie club had a tourney there and the weights were good! Last year the water was down I think like 3 more feet from previous October we caught well over a thousand crappie as a club the size was way down! Thinking just the crappie cycle but we will see within a few years ! Am for waters staying high for weed growth that support better fisheries! It’s funny pa lakes I think at the border don’t draw down much I know pymy don’t and it goes to the little


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

pymy draws down a few feet but doesn't have the average depth to support lower water levels


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## eyehunter8063 (Sep 6, 2013)

the last 3-4 years even in the spring the water has been way lower than normal years this year willows we normally dip were only in 1 or so foot of water in may. normally have 3-4 foot of water in those spots


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

I personally don't have a problem with them drawing the water down, so if I were to vote in the survey, my vote would be no. Reduce the speed and the amount of draw down at this time of year and I would vote yes. 

It's not the fact that they draw it down, it's the fact that it is at the level it is right now, prior to labor day. Basically 8 1/2' down from summer pool. A summer pool that used to be .7 of a foot higher than what is considered summer pool, now. 

I don't see how someone can argue that less people visiting the lake (due to low water levels) does not have an economic impact on the surrounding business. It does. And trying to say otherwise is pure madness. It's like saying the Brown's sucking since god knows when, hasn't had an impact on business around the stadium. 

The fact is that it wasn't that long ago that the only time Berlin has been at the level it currently is, at this time of year, was when we and surrounding areas were in drought conditions.


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## John Boat (Sep 23, 2014)

Bottom Line,you just have to put the time in and if it was always easy, the lakes would be polluted with inconsiderate ‘fishermen. Pick your poison!!!
“


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## J2jm (Apr 20, 2015)

I hardly fish there other than in the spring anymore. The inconsiderate power boaters which seem to outnumber ethical pleasure boaters along with the drastic water fluctuations have an impact.
Those two variables influenced my decision to fish pymatuning more. 
I decided I did not want to drive back and forth to pymatuning. So I bought a camper, got a seasonal campsite and fish pymatuning. 
I have breakfast in Andover or Linesville at the local diners after I fish each morning.
The a*holes and constant water fluctuations made the difference. Why deal with them if I don’t have to?
Berlin is only 20 minutes from my house, and I always caught fish there. 
There is always water in pymatuning. I took my wallet which I used to take to Berlin and spent decent amount $$ somewhere else to not deal with the headaches and water levels.


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

Bassbme said:


> I personally don't have a problem with them drawing the water down, so if I were to vote in the survey, my vote would be no. Reduce the speed and the amount of draw down at this time of year and I would vote yes.


That is all that they are asking for. A simple reduction in the pace that the water is being drawn.

The issues are almost exclusively about the economic and safety ramifications of the dramatic lowering of the water levels at peak season.

The effect on fishing is minimal in my opinion, at least in the immediate term for both positive and negative. I don't think anyone is really complaining about the fishing with respect to the levels. It is always tough at Berlin, high or low.

One of the negative fishing effects is the lack of weeds (although that could almost be considered a positive when contrasted against the mess that skeeter becomes when the weeds get chopped up and impede trollers).

A positive is that it flushes the muck that would otherwise prevent natural reproduction of walleye who rely on the gravels to contain their eggs.


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## coach76 (May 27, 2011)

You make a lot of sense and I agree, louisville


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## fishinfool6369 (Feb 17, 2005)

Drove across the causeway yesterday afternoon and it was kinda sad. A nice warm, sunny Labor day and there were hardly any boats on the water. Just don't understand why they can't start slowly draining it after Labor Day.


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## markw620 (Jun 15, 2012)

fishinfool6369 said:


> Drove across the causeway yesterday afternoon and it was kinda sad. A nice warm, sunny Labor day and there were hardly any boats on the water. Just don't understand why they can't start slowly draining it after Labor Day.


5 Plus inches of rain coming - Good thing they lowered Berlin when they did. Should be full soon.


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## coach76 (May 27, 2011)

Was heading to Campground and ramp, both closed for the season. Decided to tune crankbaits at Lake Milton near ramp on route 18. Boater told me it was about a foot down. I will try Lake Milton, Mosquito, West Branch and one more drive to Lake Erie later in the month.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

markw620 said:


> 5 Plus inches of rain coming - Good thing they lowered Berlin when they did. Should be full soon.


There is an elevation difference between summer and full pool water levels. Yes, 5" of rain is going to raise the water level quickly and very significantly, yet according to the forecast on the Corps of Engineers web site, the lake will only go 1' above summer pool. In other words, a pool elevation of 1025'. Full pool elevation is 1031.3'. 

Do the math. If the weather forecast holds true, Berlin will be nowhere near being full. Even with this less than common amount of rain fall, it is still ridiculous that they lower Berlin as quickly and as much as they do during the summer months. 

Nice try though ....


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

Oh, and if folks don't believe the Corps can move crazy amounts of water rather quickly (to accommodate sever conditions) look at the Corps' reservoir forecast web site. They forecast dropping Berlin .7' from Wednesday to Thursday. 1960 cubic feet per second. 7/10 of a foot over more than 3,000 acres, in one day.

And BTW ... http://www.wfmj.com/story/39046821/army-corps-to-hold-meeting-on-berlin-lake-master-plan


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