# frustrating day



## Smokepiper (Apr 23, 2009)

So against better judgement, I went up to the Mad yesterday. Started out at 9:30 and began working north from the RR Bridge. Not much doing. I notice someone else step in and begin wading. 

I finally see a trout sipping at the top; I start fishing to it. after 20 minutes, I am sidled up to be the wader. I can no longer back cast hes so close. His wading was a bit loud and splashy. I stop fishing and turn. Politely, I say hello and he replies. We idly chit chat about the expense of his equipment and both of our newbieness at this sport. We finish and he moves past me on the stream. 

What gets me is the heavy footfall and splashing as well as flogging the water with his rod. No loop in the line, nothing. Just $1500 in equipment tromping down the river. 

Being new at this my question becomes, is it part of the etiquette to remove yourself from the stream and walk around others fishing entering the stream a "safe" distance on the other side? Perhaps Orvis should have an etiquette session in their Sunday casting classes. 

Don't even get me started on the canoes...

In all it was fairly peaceful, but I got skunked. I thought about moving up to 29 and fishing there, but I simply ran out of time. 

D


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

There's a reason you haven't seen a mad river report from me in a while  There were a fairly belligerent group of teens out there last time I was there, who enjoyed shouting threats and obscenities at my father and I. The fishing on the mad isn't good enough to put up with that, so we fish WV most of the time now.

Also we got totally, 100% skunked that evening. Which sucks. The mad is a great river in the spring, and probably in the winter and fall, but right now when it's trickling like a creek it's just almost impossible.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Clayton said:


> There's a reason you haven't seen a mad river report from me in a while  There were a fairly belligerent group of teens out there last time I was there, who enjoyed shouting threats and obscenities at my father and I. The fishing on the mad isn't good enough to put up with that, so we fish WV most of the time now.
> 
> Also we got totally, 100% skunked that evening. Which sucks. The mad is a great river in the spring, and probably in the winter and fall, but right now when it's trickling like a creek it's just almost impossible.


I haven't fished it, but a buddy of mine caught 4 browns over the weekend betwen 14-18", so it must not be _impossible_. 

I hear about incidents like this, and it reminds me why I quit fishing stocked streams in WV: I can't stand the presence of idiots. I can hardly put up with myself...add a bunch of guys who don't care about stream etiquette and will shove you down to beat you to the next hole, and it adds up to me not caring to fish there. I'm pretty much sworn off the stocked stuff in WV now, and I'm not sure if I'll ever fish the Mad if the crowds and pressure is as bad as it sounds.


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah, the people running up and crowding you drive me crazy. Plus, stocker fish don't fight as hard, and they're not as smart, so it's less fun.

In other news, I know it's not impossible. I'm just not good enough at it! So  I'm gonna go give the bass a little hell I think


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Sounds like an "Orvis-Boy" left over from steelhead season. . . . .


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

oh stocker streams arent the only ones
mr. orvis loves to show up on blue ribbon streams as well
right now there is a (odd, the buddest hippie type, but intresting) gentelman who camps on the mccloud each year. he hangs out in the camp site until the crowds die down ect. the other week he said he went down to fish one small seam for some rising fish, and after setting up and figuring out what they where eating, mr. orvis came down and waded into the seam the guy was casting too and started fishing. when the guys said to mr orvis, "15 miles of river and you have to fish the hole I'm in" the guy said thanks. heres the good part. this hole is right under the pacific crest trail bridge, so the guy walks on the bridge, aims, and takes a piss on mr. orvis.
..end of story, some times, I wish there where bridges everywhere...

I will tell you that often times there is an easy cure to avoid these types, walk one mile and you almost never see them. also, try and talk to them politly, many people simply dont know much of the excepted "rules" of fly fishing. lead by example, and to the guys that just dont care about curtesy, leave them alone, unless theres a bridge.


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Or you could conceal carry a supersoaker...  that way there's way less need for a bridge!


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## Smokepiper (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm sure he was a friendly enough guy. More money than brains, but a nice guy. There are fish in the river, but it seems some folks don;t want to put in 20 minutes or an hour into a hole and fish the seams or change flies. They don't stalk the fish. He walked and cast from one end to the other.

I cant wait to get to the Blue ridge over the fourth. I'll get in some fishing on a family trip. A little hike, a little fish sounds like a cure for long weeks at work. 

D


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

I assume that "Orvis" is some kind of dig at a certain type of fisherman but as someone who uses Orvis gear for the most part, I'd like to have some idea of what this grouping is so I don't get pissed on when someone makes an assumption based on the logo on my gear.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

It's not the Orvis gear, it's the general attitude, don't worry.

The _Orvis-Boy_ usually has in excess of $2000 worth of gear and clothing and absolutely no clue what he's doing.
They are usually seen standing directly in a deep chute fishing the shallows. . . .

Absolutely not a dig on Orvis gear. I think I even bought some of their stuff once or twice.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

I have some Orvis gear, too, but a far cry from $2000 worth of it! I suppose if I bought 2 or 3 of their rods that would put me close to $2000 on that alone, though.


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## Smokepiper (Apr 23, 2009)

Orvis has some nice things. I'm sure their rods and assorted tackle are tops in the industry. However, he appeared to have stepped right out of the catalog.

I think my meaning had more to do with him saying he'd been fishing a month and had sunken a fortune into gear. I go overboard on a lot of hobbies, but dang. Perhaps, I'm subconsciously jealous of his buying power. 

D


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

I have orvis boots, a simms vest (I love it too!), cabelas waders, a REI jacket, TFO rod, Sage reel, Rio line, maxima leader, Dick's sporting goods net, and actual surgical hemostats (I'm NOT paying 13 bucks for the fly fishing version, hospitals throw them away by the ton).

I consider my gear-scape to be diverse 

All that said, all my flies (except for my EP minnows and my galloup streamers) are orvis flies. Orvis ties some nice flies for $1.50-2.00 each, I don't tie, and I catch too many fish to count on gander mountain stuff haha.


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

I rarely see these people due to I fish to get away from such high rollers..lol.. I do own some decent stuff, and when I started it was new. Nows its all haggard and abused just like a girl from Hustler magazine circa 1970..lol...


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## al capone (Nov 13, 2005)

Has anyone conciderd that maybe "orvis guy" did'nt know any better? Maybe with alittle polite chasizing he would learn.God knows I have no problem telling a fellow fly fisherman "He's messing it up for us both" Politily of course....


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

al capone said:


> Has anyone conciderd that maybe "orvis guy" did'nt know any better? Maybe with alittle polite chasizing he would learn.God knows I have no problem telling a fellow fly fisherman "He's messing it up for us both" Politily of course....



Nope, I'll let him/her go around like in life as stupid as the day he/she was born. Its just like when I salt water fly fish and the boating moron who is chasing bait fish runs his/her boat flat out like a hole shot and shuts down the blitz and then yells "hey where did they go"? Or the idiot who drifts his boat within 15 feet of my drift while I'm on the river! Nope, its not my job to educate them on that level if they dont have enough common sense to know already. Sorry for the rant, but thats why I fish away from 90% of the people!


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Clayton said:


> I have orvis boots, a simms vest (I love it too!), cabelas waders, a REI jacket, TFO rod, Sage reel, Rio line, maxima leader, Dick's sporting goods net, and actual surgical hemostats (I'm NOT paying 13 bucks for the fly fishing version, hospitals throw them away by the ton).
> 
> I consider my gear-scape to be diverse
> 
> *All that said, all my flies (except for my EP minnows and my galloup streamers) are orvis flies. Orvis ties some nice flies for $1.50-2.00 each, I don't tie, and I catch too many fish to count on gander mountain stuff haha*.



Haha, I go through too many flies to pay $1.50-2.00 for them! That would pile up in a hurry!


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

I suppose I get my spey rod out when I do then I will know he will leave! If he dont then he will get a whppin by standing in the way! HeHe!


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Clayton said:


> I have orvis boots, a simms vest (I love it too!), cabelas waders, a REI jacket, TFO rod, Sage reel, Rio line, maxima leader, Dick's sporting goods net, and actual surgical hemostats (I'm NOT paying 13 bucks for the fly fishing version, hospitals throw them away by the ton).
> 
> I consider my gear-scape to be diverse
> 
> All that said, all my flies (except for my EP minnows and my galloup streamers) are orvis flies. Orvis ties some nice flies for $1.50-2.00 each, I don't tie, and I catch too many fish to count on gander mountain stuff haha.


I don't typically buy my flies from Orvis except when I am near the store and need to stop in and find out what is working and buy it if I don't already have it. I will happily admit that if I get a chance to fish with any of you, you'll notice that I am pretty much outfitted with Orvis gear. Very little of it bought at full retail mind you, but all Orvis nonetheless.

For me its just brand loyalty. Their gear has never let me down and customer service is always great. Plus, my family now associate my flyfishing with Orvis so it becomes the default giftcard of choice when they want to give me Christmas and birthday gifts.

I definitely know what you guys are talking about with the people though who wear "Orvis" or any other brand as a substitute for real passion and, apparently, common courtesy. While I definitely an Orvis guy, I am not "Orvis boy".

Clayton, if you have some flies you want, I am heading to Vermont in October and plan on absolutely raiding the Orvis outlet stores in Manchester and Lake George, NY. I figure I can at least save you shipping and maybe get some sale prices. I'll touch base when it gets closer and you can let me know what you need to stock up on for the next year.


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

TheCream said:


> Haha, I go through too many flies to pay $1.50-2.00 for them! That would pile up in a hurry!


You bring up a good point. I can see it both ways.

Pro - why cheap out on the one piece of gear that the trout actually sees?

Con - we are talking about feather and a hook, how much difference can there be and is it worth it when so many end up as tree earings?

I end up paying just as much at local fly shops as I do when I buy from Orvis so I don't think they (Orvis) are unreasonable, I just think that hand-tied flies are not cheap.

Then again, I was looking through my old tackle boxes for something and realized how many Rappala lures I have from when I used to bass fish with non-fly tackle. I think those things were $5-7 and I have probably 20 of them. And I probably lost tons of those things too so maybe $2 flies aren't a bad deal.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

I honestly have a mixture of good quality hand-tied flies, cheaper "bargain" flies, and the streamer box I carry is stuffed with things I have tied (that surprisingly work ). The bargain flies are handy for non-salmonids, like the bluegills and redears I fish for at a local lake. They can't tell the difference between a $1.50 fly and a $.75 fly, and they destroy them at about the same rate!


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Oh, I've learned the difference. I buy my flies through Mad River Outfitters, but I know they get just about all of em from Orvis haha.

I'll tell you a story that explains 2 dollars a fly. When I first got a fly rod, I bought a redington crosswater from Gander Mountain in upstate NY. I loved the rod, and I bought a few flies from them as well, one of them being a black elk hair caddis. Also a yellow humpy, a little stimulator, parachute adams, zug bug, red butt, and a few other odds and ends. Anyhoo, my second day out with it I was fishing to a pool of probably 100 fish on a bluebird day (I love New York haha). I had tried about everything dry-fly on this hole, and went and sat on the bank to warm my legs up. Came back out swinging with the black caddis fly and the fish EXPLODED ON IT. 4 strikes in 5 casts, caught 3. My first 3 fly rod trout.

Then they turned off, because the fly was already in tatters. I bet a bluegill wouldn't eat it, it was that bad. After 3 fish!! If that fly had been in good shape I could have caught fish all dang day out of that hole, but the bite was over because I bought a cheap fly.

So now I'll happily spend 2 bucks each, because you never know what you might end up asking from your flies. Sometimes, it's a lot.

That said... yeah.... it really does pile up in a hurry... haha


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Clayton, that's a great story because it does bring up the question of would you need 2 or 3 $1 flies to last as long as that single $2 fly.

I always wondered if MRO had local tiers or got them from Orvis. Apparently I need to revise my earlier statement and admit that apparently I do also buy my fiels from Orivs (whether at MRO or actually at Orvis). I do have some cheapos that I bought over a decade ago when I was first starting out. I never use them but they make my fly box look more full so I just keep them as filler.


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Yep, and to keep the comparison going, my Olive Matuka I bought the other day is still alive, despite the 20+ smallmouth that have attacked it. I had a wooly bugger keep catching fish after I got a saugeye on it... he SHREDDED it though haha. But the fly wouldn't unravel!

MRO has some local tiers doing stuff I think, but I've also seen lots of boxes that Orvis flies are delivered in, so.. . Both! haha. When you've got an inventory of that many flies, you have to have more than one source.

Everything but bucktails. Oh well.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

I've caught a lot of trout in WV on Cabelas flies, so apparently the Chinese sweat shop kids can tie a durable fly, too.


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

Chinese flies are junk! Not that I have bought any either. They are not very durable and are of poor quality and I have seen a lot of dry flies with the wrong proportions and especially the tails not straight like they should be. Also the hooks they use are very inferior. I tie all of my flies nowaday as one biggest reason is you have control of what color variations and quite a few of my own designs you will never see in a shop that just flat out slams conventional flies found in the shops. There are quite a few shop that have flies tied for them locally and those are fine.


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

Guess what folks! if you see the Orvis boxes the flies come in, many are made in China and I bet the QC may just be a bit higher on them then the 75 cent internet flies. All flies will break down when you need them the most. 
Best bet is to get into a group of guys who all fish, all tie there own stuff annd then all have each tie there own stuff and then swap them around, that is what we all do. That way when i tie up my version of a Pheasant Tail, Ill tie 2-3 dozen of them, then trade off 2/3rd of them for my buddies who tie stone flies, copper Johns, Prince nymphs, etc. It works well and every coupe months, we set a date, take quasi orders and all tie 2-3 flies for the swap. 

Not to change the subject, but there hasnt been a fly swap on here in quite some time, perhaps its time again...I suggest a Mad River fly swap.

Bottom line, buy locally from a tried and true tier, tie yourself or as a last option, buy from the Chinese.....I will say the Orvis flies are tied pretty well, not the greatest, but far form the worst ones I have ever used, thats for sure. Mike Schmidt on here ties most of my unique flies, he is from West Columbus and has his own tying company. Reasonable, very durable, reasonable and gorgeous, ( anglerschoiceflies.com) 

Food for thought!
Salmonid


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Thanks for the link! Always happier to give money to a local fly tier whenever possible. Nice website as well.

I am looking forward to learning how to tie my own this winter. I checked on classes at MRO but they only offer them in the winter hence the wait.

Never really had a desire to tie them myself but I kind of like the idea of tying patterns specific for a destination as a way of getting excited about the trip. Also, I like the idea of tweaking patterns and such.

Thanks again.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd be up for a swap...if I could tie anything that someone would actually _want_. 

I tie mostly streamers, simple ones, simple but effective. I do them because I like to customize color patterns for places where I fish. I've taken colors effective on crappies and bass with conventional tackle and applied them to streamers for fly fishing. I like being able to customize and do them myself, if I run low on a particular streamer, I can re-stock in an hour instead of waiting days on a shipment to arrive.


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

ooo I like the swap idea, I'd be game.....
with the flies, all flies get destroyed, and when it comes to nymphs I fish them tight to (and often in) nasty snags. any fly that sinks I tie anymore, save for a few caddis emergers that I dont have the patience for. dries however I often buy, I got so sick of tying para adams, elk hairs, and stimi's that I just buy a dozen at a time. but big dries, stones and hoppers, or midges, or if its hatch matching I tie it.
frankly I am almost broke just trying to keep up with materials, I'd be screwed if I bought all my flies, it would cut into my gas money for fishing.

and what is this about busted flies not working as well, I usually have those flies that work the best after they are torn apart and have become balls of fuzz(or maybe they just look better tattered than strait off my vice)


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

I be game but wait til this winter. 
RK, Caddis emergers are my favorites and tie them all the time. Got a new one I played with last week but haven't fished it yet. May do so this weekend on the Elk if I can get down there with a chair and fish.


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

For those of you who tie, how did you learn? Book, DVD, experienced tying friend or classes?

I tried a book but didn't do well. I am going to try a DVD but only really have confidence in the class (which unfortunately isn't for months) getting me over the hump. I'd love to catch a fish on a fly of my own on the Battenkill this year.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

deaner1971 said:


> For those of you who tie, how did you learn? Book, DVD, experienced tying friend or classes?
> 
> I tried a book but didn't do well. I am going to try a DVD but only really have confidence in the class (which unfortunately isn't for months) getting me over the hump. I'd love to catch a fish on a fly of my own on the Battenkill this year.


You can find some good free instructional videos on YouTube. Just like anything Internet-related, there will be bad clips mixed in with the good stuff, but most common patterns you can find a video for on there. Might save you some $$$ on a DVD or two.


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

I am self taught. The videos are ok but will not bail you out if get into problem situation though.


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

got a vice at 8 and had one book about the basics, after that it was all experimentation and asking the guys tying in fly shops what they were doing.


flyfishdog, what pattern is it. there are a few emergers that I have tied but mine always either look awefull or the pattern takes 25 steps or crazy materials.


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Alright, I am going to get out my gear again this weekend and pick out one of the DVDs and start giving it a shot again.

I really prefer dry flies so anyone want to suggest the best dry fly (read: easiest) to tie? Anything with applicability to the Northeast or Midwest will work.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

deaner1971 said:


> Alright, I am going to get out my gear again this weekend and pick out one of the DVDs and start giving it a shot again.
> 
> I really prefer dry flies so anyone want to suggest the best dry fly (read: easiest) to tie? Anything with applicability to the Northeast or Midwest will work.


Hard to beat an elk hair caddis for a dry. I use them just about everywhere from ponds for bluegills to stream trout in the mountains. Easy to tie and very effective!


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

simple ants...two balls of dubbing and three wraps of hackle in the middle, I like the parachute versions more, they are a bit more complicated, but the normal ones will work.
elk hairs aren't too tough, I would say dont bother with classic hackle wing dries, just stick with parachutes, and over time learn to tie comparaduns, great style.
foam patterns take some getting used too but are effective and fun to tie.

then once you get those down you can start matching the hatch for the mad right now, size 32 cream midge..piece of cake


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Looks like I'll try both elk hair caddis and a parachute. I do use both versions a lot (for the exact reason mentioned) so it is a good idea to get cracking on one I'll be tying a lot.

We'll see how it goes. My guess is that the over/under is two glued fingers and a tetnus shot but we'll see.


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## Fishaholic69 (Apr 6, 2007)

if someone yelled some stuff at me they be swimming with the fishies. lol never fished the mad before but you guys make it sound not even worth it. lol I have seen a bunch of kids who come and swim down at my fav fishing hole but they all have been polite so far. yes they jump in the water and swim but I just fish farther up or down stream from them and when I do walk past um I just admire the babes in the swimsuits! haha.


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

riverKing said:


> got a vice at 8 and had one book about the basics, after that it was all experimentation and asking the guys tying in fly shops what they were doing.
> 
> 
> flyfishdog, what pattern is it. there are a few emergers that I have tied but mine always either look awefull or the pattern takes 25 steps or crazy materials.


#16 suflur UnUsual Emerger is what I am going to call it.
Had three of them and one of tem got me a big 20 inch bow last evening, It litterly hammered it! It's pretty simple, will try to get a picture posted soon.


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