# Landowners on the LMR



## Nitro750 (Sep 25, 2006)

To all of you that fish the Little Miami River in the Beavercreek/Xenia area watch out. 

ODNR and DP&L are out to ruin an innocent fishing outing due to outdated laws. My friend and I were recently stopped while fishing and not too politely asked to leave immediately. We had two vehicles approach us as they communicated on their CB that they had caught two trespassers. Needless to say, we had no idea we were doing anything wrong. There weren't any posted signs or any indication we were on someones river bed. It seems that DP&L is strictly enforcing encroachment on their "unmarked" property. We were told that DP&L will prosecute to the maximum extent of the law. 

However, had we been in the same location in a canoe or kayak, nothing would have been said because the OH owns the water and everything in it. I've heard about this law and really find it to be quite ridiculous. So, if a canoeist comes upon a stretch of water that is too shallow or too dangerous to navigate and are forced to leave their canoe to go around the area, I assume they are innocently trespassing also??? We pay for a statewide fishing license and cannot use a state river. I'm sure these laws were created because there are people out there that have ruined the relationship between fisherman and land owners due to vandalism and littering, etc. I just hate to see innocent people get punished for a few idiots. 

It doesn't make any sense. The LMR is recognized as a National Scenic River, just don't get caught enjoying it. 

Just be aware of where you are because the DNR is looking to site "Trespassers"!


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## NKUSigEp (Jun 21, 2007)

Nitro750 said:


> To all of you that fish the Little Miami River in the Beavercreek/Xenia area watch out.
> 
> ODNR and DP&L are out to ruin an innocent fishing outing due to outdated laws. My friend and I were recently stopped while fishing and not too politely asked to leave immediately. We had two vehicles approach us as they communicated on their CB that they had caught two trespassers. Needless to say, we had no idea we were doing anything wrong. There weren't any posted signs or any indication we were on someones river bed. It seems that DP&L is strictly enforcing encroachment on their "unmarked" property. We were told that DP&L will prosecute to the maximum extent of the law.
> 
> ...


That law is actually not that outdated and does serve a purpose. If I had property that backed up to a river, I wouldn't want every yahoo in town on my property at will and I don't want to have "No Trespassing" and "Private Property" signs posted on every single tree just to let people know it. Chances are that it was posted somewhere, but even so, I think everyone should know that if it's not posted as publicly owned land such as a park, that it's privately owned. And if you don't have permission, then you're trespassing. And the only way an officer knows who is trespassing and who isn't, is if the land-owner identifies that person as a trespasser.

As for canoers, if you have to pull your canoe all the way up onto terra firma just to circumnavigate rapids or spots otherwise impassable in a canoe, then yes, you are trespassing. Though typically most canoers don't set up camp in someones back yard and fish. They just continue on down stream.


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## XL506 (Jul 13, 2007)

It's a damn shame that people ( DNR, DP&L, And random Jerk Landowners ) actually look to catch people on " Their " property, just to be a jerk and get people doing something as innocent as enjoying Ohios natural resources, and fishing. It really is ridiculous. Ohio needs a law, like the privately owned " Crystal Lakes". Crystal Lakes is a small community where I live with a few nice lakes in the area, and to prevent any confrontation, and over zealous homeowners surrounding the lakes. Their " law " is that Anything withing 10ft of the bank is not owned by the homeowners. So, people fishing can walk anywhere along the lakes, so long as theyre within the 10ft margin of the banks. This would be a great law for Ohio to enforce. But, unfortunately our money hungry state officials would never do such a thing, because they love the extra money coming in from citing, and fining innocent people who are doing something productive. There are rapists, murders, and other REAL criminals in Ohio that are running around free, and state officials need to spend their time doing something more productive like catching REAL criminals instead of badgering innocent fishermen and fisherwomen. I would love nothing more than to line up our " states finest ", and walk down the line and offer them a well deserved, and heartfelt SWIFT KICK IN THE CROTCH.


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## XL506 (Jul 13, 2007)

NKUSigEp said:


> That law is actually not that outdated and does serve a purpose. If I had property that backed up to a river, I wouldn't want every yahoo in town on my property at will and I don't want to have "No Trespassing" and "Private Property" signs posted on every single tree just to let people know it. Chances are that it was posted somewhere, but even so, I think everyone should know that if it's not posted as publicly owned land such as a park, that it's privately owned. And if you don't have permission, then you're trespassing. And the only way an officer knows who is trespassing and who isn't, is if the land-owner identifies that person as a trespasser.
> 
> As for canoers, if you have to pull your canoe all the way up onto terra firma just to circumnavigate rapids or spots otherwise impassable in a canoe, then yes, you are trespassing. Though typically most canoers don't set up camp in someones back yard and fish. They just continue on down stream.



Come on now, be rationale here. You're making it sound like by opening up the BANKS of the river, fisherman would instead just travel ALL OVER your land. He didnt say anything about just wondering around exploring someones private property. Hes talking about following the banks along the river, which there should not be no problem with that. And it's absurd to think people are such jerks that they would be inclined to take action against a person who is just go up and down the river, trying to stay on the bank, not bothering anyone. Those people aren't jerks because someone is doing something wrong, they are just being jerks because they know they can and get away with it, and its sickening.


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## NKUSigEp (Jun 21, 2007)

XL506 said:


> Come on now, be rationale here. You're making it sound like by opening up the BANKS of the river, fisherman would instead just travel ALL OVER your land. He didnt say anything about just wondering around exploring someones private property. Hes talking about following the banks along the river, which there should not be no problem with that. And it's absurd to think people are such jerks that they would be inclined to take action against a person who is just go up and down the river, trying to stay on the bank, not bothering anyone. Those people aren't jerks because someone is doing something wrong, they are just being jerks because they know they can and get away with it, and its sickening.


Well yeah...I do see where you guys are coming from. And I do think it's a damn shame, myself. But it only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch. It's a lot easier to deal with it up front than to go back and try to fix something after the fact.


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

NKUSigEp i think i know the area ur talking about, i grew up in xenia and know the lmr pretty well in that area, and in the spring they didnt have the access blocked off and u could drive right on down the access road and walk a short distance and fish, but they put up a cable to block the entrance, but that is only an ingress & egress access for the easement that DP&L has over those lands so its best u stay off the easement, now if the land owners are up in arms there aint much we can do. if it is the same area im thinking about that easement crosses over the river so if the odnr really wanted to be butt holes all they would have to do is go back on the access road and bust people for tresspassing.


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## redtailmatt (Jun 29, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up Nitro. I have been fishing the same area for about a month now (2 to 3 times) and so far have had no probs. I was actually warned by a co-worker today about the same area. (prob the fellow that was with you) His story was the same. Thats a shame, sounds like a few have ruined it for the masses. I am surprised DP&L has taken the stance they have! Must be a liability issue or something? Good fishing and Tight Lines, Matt


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## e-dub (Aug 25, 2005)

XL506 said:


> Their " law " is that Anything withing 10ft of the bank is not owned by the homeowners. So, people fishing can walk anywhere along the lakes, so long as theyre within the 10ft margin of the banks. This would be a great law for Ohio to enforce. But, unfortunately our money hungry state officials would never do such a thing, because they love the extra money coming in from citing, and fining innocent people who are doing something productive. .


I was stopped by the police down by Loveland while Canoeing with friends 3 years back while on private property. We were actually tresspassing, but the loveland police let us go with a warning. The also informed me however that because the Little Miami River is a State park, everywhere you are in the river is considered public land. They also went on to tell me that up to 15 feet (or yards I can't remember) from the water is considered the state park and is also public land. They went on to tell me that if the water rises on to someones property, the park still extends 15 feet past the water line. In turn making it public land. I assumed this ment during a flood, if the water is in your back yard, people are allowed to go on your property as long as you are within 15 feet of the shore. 

I never bothered to check to see if this was in fact true, but it sounded like the local police knew what they were talking about. 

Has anyone else ever heard of this law?


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## boonecreek (Dec 28, 2006)

i thought that if u enter a creek from a public road and waded the water u were not tresspassing


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## ttoutdoors (Jul 16, 2005)

I really find it strange that anyone can own the actual bed of any river. Even if you own property on both sides of the river, you should still not be able to own the river bed. It should be public property up to the high water mark on any river. As long as you're wading in the river you should not be prosecuted for trespassing. It should remain public land.
But, that's a fantasy world of common sense in which we no longer live. So, as long as someone can own the river bed, they should be fined for littering if their river property has tires, etc. in it.
I have a community sidewalk that goes through the front of my front yard. I can't stop people from using it because it's on my property. But, if someone falls because of the snow or ice on it or because a piece of the cement has broken up, I'm liable. Can anyone explain that?
Truly confusing.


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## NKUSigEp (Jun 21, 2007)

e-dub said:


> I was stopped by the police down by Loveland while Canoeing with friends 3 years back while on private property. We were actually tresspassing, but the loveland police let us go with a warning. The also informed me however that because the Little Miami River is a State park, everywhere you are in the river is considered public land. They also went on to tell me that up to 15 feet (or yards I can't remember) from the water is considered the state park and is also public land. They went on to tell me that if the water rises on to someones property, the park still extends 15 feet past the water line. In turn making it public land. I assumed this ment during a flood, if the water is in your back yard, people are allowed to go on your property as long as you are within 15 feet of the shore.
> 
> I never bothered to check to see if this was in fact true, but it sounded like the local police knew what they were talking about.
> 
> Has anyone else ever heard of this law?


Yup...I think it's called the flood-line or something like that? And I've been under the impression that the state owns the river bed and you are allowed everything up to terra firma to meander about. And if the river is in flood-stage, it's 10 ft. Anything beyond that is private property. But it's how you got to that 10 feet or whatever it is that counts. And I could be completely wrong here, but I know that I've read that somewhere (just not 100% sure it was for Ohio).

I just got back from Montana a few weeks ago and that's all ya heard about really. You had a certain distance from the edge of the water or else you were busted. The water and river bed were owned by the state. Except out there, people put up barbed wire across the stream to try to keep people out. Perfectly legal to do so as long as you don't have a stake right in the middle of the stream. And it's perfectly legal to cross underneath it too. Most people don't though.


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## NKUSigEp (Jun 21, 2007)

And I know most of you are gonna sit there and say "well how can they do that" and flame me for partially agreeing with the law, but if I had a really nice spot to fish right behind my house, I wouldn't want to share it. Maybe have a few friends over but c'mon...if you guys were pulling 8 lb. bass or 40 lb. catfish out of it left and right, would YOU want someone else to know about it? And then they tell a friend, and their friends tell their friends...and so on?


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## ttoutdoors (Jul 16, 2005)

You should have no option but to share it. It's (should be) public property. As long as a person enters the river from public land, the river itself (yes even in yours or my backyard) should be open to use.


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## creekwalker (May 23, 2004)

NKU, I have exactly that behind my house (maybe not quite 8lb, but a nice fishery nonetheless). I've posted a thread on this before, but might as well chime in again. I suspect many people on the other side have never owned a spot like that, if so you might think differently.

I didn't used to care about people fishing behind my house. I've owned the place for 8 years and 6 of them I didn't care. I finally got tired of picking up trash and the place looking like a parking lot at the county fair within days of cleaning it up. 

I've heard people say (and agree) that a few people ruin it for the masses, but unfortunately that's how it is. I shouldn't have to pay for it any more than the people who would like access to fish there. Those people only occasionally have problems accessing the water while I have problems regularly. On one stretch this spring, after putting up no trespassing signs, there were almost 14 days in a row (12 total probably) that I had to run someone off and the trash piked up quickly. The worst part is that catching someone littering is like finding a needle in a haystack, so I just quit letting people do it at all.

As for putting up no trespassing signs, I'm getting tired of that too. People keep tearing them down. On the one path where most people access the water, I've replaced the no trespassing signs there more than 10 times this year alone.

Then of course there's the liability issue. As ttoutdoors mentioned on the sidewalk scenario, I have the same issue where the creek crosses my land. There's a bluff overlooking the water (great for spotting fish) that I'm sure would, and probably has in the past, attract kids. If one of them lands on one of the many rocks in the creek while jumping in and if their parents are the litigious type who would they sue? Certainly not the state.

If the state is willing to keep the trash picked up there and be liable for the land around the creek, then bring on the fishermen....I'll be the guide, after all I know it pretty well since its right behind my house 

CW





NKUSigEp said:


> And I know most of you are gonna sit there and say "well how can they do that" and flame me for partially agreeing with the law, but if I had a really nice spot to fish right behind my house, I wouldn't want to share it. Maybe have a few friends over but c'mon...if you guys were pulling 8 lb. bass or 40 lb. catfish out of it left and right, would YOU want someone else to know about it? And then they tell a friend, and their friends tell their friends...and so on?


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## CasualFisherman (May 21, 2004)

The LMR is mostly private land and is not a state park in it's entirety. Private property includes the land beneath the river. If you own one side then the property line goes to the middle of the river, if you own both sides then you also own the riverbed in it's entirety. The public does have the right to navigate the waterway but not the bank. I agree with the landowners on this one. If they own the land and don't want someone on it then so be it. The Beavercreek/Xenia area has numerous public access points such as the Narrows, Glenn Thompson, and numerous bridges that cross the river provide public easements to launch a canoe. I just think if someone wants to fish the river then buy a canoe(you have a right to navigate the actual waterway), ask for permission, or be content with the public property along the river. I have never had a problem gaining access to the River in this area including quite a bit of private land. I just think think the landowners at times are demonized for simply protecting their interests and the land they own. You would not believe the problems many of them go through when owning a desirable hunting or fishing property.


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

well when it comes to who owns what you have ur meandering river lines where the owner of the lands property changes along with the river if the bank is eroding the property lines follows the bank, this practice isnt followed that much anymore, now the other type of survey and deed work most of the owners have done now is by taking the old deeds which were based off of meandering property lines adjacent to the river, creek, stream, etc... are updated and eventually the river, creek, stream, etc... eventually become the property of the owner of the land (which is the tangible ground beneath the water). easements are a totally different beast, highway easements u can use to gain access to the place ud like to fish, but the cities and state are now erecting fencing to block this access and if they own it aint no fighting it, now the Miami Conservancy District acquires land all the time and eventually will acquire enough land along the banks of the rivers and such so that we all could have access, the only problem with this is the fact that there will always be someone to ruin it for us, so even if we do have access to spots now how long will that last before someone gets feed up with dealing with the idiots?


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## sevenx (Apr 21, 2005)

"who own the cheifs" "ownsah ownsah".....Some of you may get that reference. Not really the same thing but the debate is none the less the same. I see points and agree with both sides of the debate. Once again it really boils down to respect. If you continually disrespect someone "as in cw case with his property" they will eventually react. I know I use this analogy all the time in my post's and you guys are probibally saying here he goes again. This is crucial in be able to use lands owned by private land owners. When you ask permission in many case's land owners will let you and when they see you walk out with a bag of trash they appreicate that. Also a small token of appreciation such as a box of cookies from the wife or gift certificate to certain outfitters does not hurt either. Respect goes a long way. This is really the issue when you are dealing with a previous generation of land owner. They were taught respect and earned it. Today people demand respect but do not work to earn it. As has been stated people demand access to land and untill the laws change will have to earn it. My .02 S


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## Nitro750 (Sep 25, 2006)

I appreciate all of the discussion on this thread and everyone seems to have a valid opinion. I understand the concerns of the landowner and feel strongly the only reason they get upset is because of a few idiots who don't respect property of others. These are the same people that pitch their trash out of their car window instead of finding a trash can. They ruin it for everyone. It's not just their attitude or lack there of while fishing, these people don't care about their neighbors, place of employment, etc. 

One thing I just will never understand, no matter what anyone says, is the ownership of the river bottom. What can the land owner do with the river bottom. What value is it, other than a tool to keep people out of state waters. 

I wish there was some sort of compromise on this issue besides the one suggestion to buy a canoe. 

Good fishing!!!

Steve


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

well nitro i can answer that question fairly easily about what can the land owners do,

exp: i worked on a survey project a few years ago for a mining operation, they owned all the land including both side of the creek, there property lines crossed over it and sometimes met in the middle of it, well they wanted to strip the topsoil off to get to the material underneath and continue on over the creek to the other side and continue on, well being they owned the rights to the land under the water u guessed it they controled the flow of the creek and changed its flow and path, now they have 3 huge lakes that the creek flows into then eventually the lakes dump back out into the creek, but indoing so they changed the course of the creek and maybe some of the fishing characteristics of that creek, fishing might not be as good. basicly what im saying is they can do whatever they want to do with it within the laws.


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

You don't own the land so you can't use that land for anything . Just like I can't pitch a tent in your front yard because I think it is a neat place to camp .
You can float the water in a boat but you can not get out or throw an anchor out or tie to a tree .


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

CJ summed it up nicely. Several years ago I wrote lengthy letter to the DNR about this subject exactly after being run off of the Darby by landowners 3 times in the same day. I thought I was in the right as long as I stayed in the river or road right of ways. #1 I was floating the river in a canoe and beached it on a sandbar to do some casting to a nice hole when the first land owner came out and threatened to call the sheriff, so I moved on to aviod conflict. #2 spot I dropped anchor to fish a hole and a property manager radioed for the sheriff. He actually came, motioned for me to move on, so I just did. #3 I stopped across river of a public park area and walked up the ditch between someones house and the road to get a soda when that person came out swearing at me and telling me to get the woohoo off their property. This guy irritated me a bit so I told him to call the cops if he didn't like it...thinking I was ok, in the right-of-way. Boy was I WRONG!! and embarassed once the DNR's response came. Basically they told me that as long as I'm floating in the water I'm legal with the exception of an emergency (potty break doesn't qualify). You may portage due to a hazard or obstruction but only long enough to safely avoid the hazard. This applies to waterways considered navigatable. Wading, dropping anchor, tying to a tree, or even bottoming out the canoe to stop and fish is all trespassing. These people did pay for the land and are required to pay taxes on it, even if it's under water. 

That said, on the other hand it is illegal for landowners to harass sportsman that are lawfully using the waterway. I have had rocks and logs thrown at me or around me while legally fishing.


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## rblake (May 12, 2005)

Straight from ODNR:

You must have written permission to access river (wade/anchor boat) within a boundary that is privately owned.

You can freely float those areas but no wading/anchoring.



-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Blake [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 8:33 PM
To: Wildinfo
Subject: River Access



Hello,

I was wondering if you could explain to me what would constitute trespassing while fishing/wading creeks, streams and rivers in Ohio. I frequently visit a fishing web site www.ohiogamefishing.com and every once in a while this topic comes up. A lot of people will explain what they think the law is, but I would like to know for sure. 



Is the link provided below providing information that is accurate?

http://www.adventuresports.com/river/nors/us-law-menu.htm



Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, 

Rob Blake


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

As a property owner who deals with trespassing issues, I'll ask you people that believe my land is yours to use a few questions.
What is your address?
Where do you want me to drop used condoms? Or, should I use my imagination?
Can I poop in your driveway?
Can I build a fire in back of your yard?
Can I feed the fire your trees?
When I use your treestand during deer season, where do I put my cigar butts?
Where do you buy your treestands? They are nice. Buy some more, cause I'm taking yours to another spot.
That mower you left out at your place last year died. Buy another one for me.
What threat gets you the most upset? "...I'll kick your ass..." Or "...I'll be back, then you'll be sorry..."
Not everybody does it, but it only takes once...


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## sevenx (Apr 21, 2005)

A question for landowners. If someone approaches you about fishing your property what would be your response? Further would rather not be approached directly by a knock on your door during your dinner, I have used the approach in this manner and have had both types of response a pleasant yes as long as you don't leave any thing behind and keep this to your self and please don't bring or send your buddies to take advantage of it because you were given permission or the line will be drawn and permission will be revoked. Would you prefer a letter left in your mail box with a phone number for your response, perhaps to set up a face to face meeting allow for reasonable response. Also a simple document drafted to obsolve the land owner from any resposibility from injury or other problems that occure on there land. 
This debate takes place all over the country and has many cases in the supreme court between land owner and sportsmen. Colorado, Montana, Wyoming and several other western state take issue with land owner and sportsman rights. 
I ask only for insight not confrentation. I fully agree that if I came out in my yard to find a tent and camp fire I would be pissed and would most likly fire up the weed eater and start cutting away at the tent and anyone in it. (ok not really but I would call the police) This is a very important issue for all of us and coming to terms that are acceptable to both parties is the answer but we all know that this is pipe dream for overall consent. But perhaps landowner would be more willing to allow access if they know the face and practices of the angler. 

Landowner's your thoughts on this would be very much appreciated. S


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## zspook (Apr 4, 2006)

Humanity being what it is...there are some bonafide jerks on both sides of the issue. 
It is up to those of us who enjoy our sport so much, to abide by the laws, whether we agree with them or not. It is called good public relations. 

Approaching a landowner before you fish on his or her property is good common sense! Trying to explain or discuss the merits of the law, or the validity of the law will never work if you've already been trespassing. And there is a good chance that you will never receive permission from that landowner to fish on their property.

Sevenx has raised the issue of approaching landowners for permission to fish on their property, and this is the only viable option other than lobbying the issue to death politically...

I can appreciate the anger and frustration of those here who enjoy being outdoors and have in turn respected the outdoors. I also can understand why property owners will defend their property from that segment of society that was never taught to pick up after themselves!
zspook


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

this is a very good debate with noone getting hot headed, i see both sides and can agree with both sides, if i owned land next to a tributary and someone politely asked me to fish it and agreed to keep it the way they found it (no trash, etc..) then they would be more than welcome to return, now if i found some of the things land owners have ran people off for, im sure anyone of us would be highly PO'ed, and would tell the person there nolong welcome on my property.

as a sportsman we all would like access to waters to be able to fish in peace and quiet without anyone finding our secret honey holes.

one thing ive noticed people bringing up is people night fishing and starting fires, i dont know if i could allow someone that i didnt know very well at all fish on my property at night not knowing there background, in todays society u just never know anymore who is who and i think that there is what makes land owners say no no no time and time again, along with the trash and disrespect of the owners land. JMO's


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Beware, some guys are using these to protect their property. http://www.pixcontroller.com./ some actually automatically forward the picture to the authorities. Just imagine you've been floating the river for 6 hrs and you need a "stretch". You take one step onto the bank an a second later a photo of you red handed is sent to the Sheriff and Game warden with your boat number in the background. All this for $349. It does seem like some agreement could be reached with landowners and fisherman like what has been done on the Mad river near Urbana.


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## dddavis (Jul 9, 2007)

i was taught to be a good hunter and fisherman by my dad, both as a steward of the land and courtesy to the land owners where i go. and i am now teaching my boy. and i know if my son and i are on your land, or in your stream or pond you would have no complaints. and if every hunter and fisherman was a sportsman, there would be few if any problems. but we all know this is not the case. i recently fished the stillwater at west milton, several times i tripped on discarded fishing line, and then i came upon the mother load of trash;probably 2 doz cans and an empty bootle of whisky. i carried out what i could. last time i was down at germantown at the twin creek, cans bottles, and the most irritating trash, fishing line. this is all on park property. if i owned land the had a creek or river on it, i would probably be a#@ too. i would bet everyone on this forum leaves no trace of their passing when outside. but the morons do, and that is what is seen.


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## cantsleep (Jul 25, 2007)

Unfortunately, the large percentage of us who care about and respect the rivers, lakes and streams, as well as their banks and shores, will always be at the mercy of the small percentage of jerks out there who litter and otherwise disrespect the outdoors.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Nitro750 said:


> We had two vehicles approach us as they communicated on their CB that they had caught two trespassers. Needless to say, we had no idea we were doing anything wrong. There weren't any posted signs or any indication we were on someones river bed. It seems that DP&L is strictly enforcing encroachment on their "unmarked" property. We were told that DP&L will prosecute to the maximum extent of the law.
> 
> However, had we been in the same location in a canoe or kayak, nothing would have been said because the OH owns the water and everything in it. I've heard about this law and really find it to be quite ridiculous. So, if a canoeist comes upon a stretch of water that is too shallow or too dangerous to navigate and are forced to leave their canoe to go around the area, I assume they are innocently trespassing also???


Im going to try and keep this real short and simple, as I too feel really passionate about this subject and tend to get quite worked up about it (in a diplomatic/friendly fashion I might add)  .

Bottom line: Unless you are NOTIFIED that you are on private property (via sinage,fencing,gates etc. YOU ARE NOT TRESPASSING. Yes, you may be on someone else's property. However you are not technically trespassing untill you are informed that the land is privately owned. *And you cannot be charged with trespassing untill, upon notification, you refuse to leave!!*

There is an exclusion in the code for hunters and hunters only. Hunters must have written permission at all times, and don't need notification of ownership to be charged. This does not apply to anglers (last time I checked)

MANY MANY PEOPLE (INCLUDING LAW ENFORCEMENT !!!) Assume the law goes something like this: "The fact that you don't own the property means it must be somone else's property, and since your on somone elses property your trespassing"...WRONG! 

This topic has been throughly covered on this site before.

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=53126&highlight=trespassing


If your fishing a public access point you can continue as far as you want upstream/downstream as along as you are NOT notified (in some way) that you are on private property. Once notified you are now trespassing and must leave the property or face arrest.

Say you're canoeing a strech of river. You can get out of the canoe, tie up to the bank, do whatever, as long as you are NOT notified that the land your on is private. Once notified you are now trespassing and must leave the property or face arrest.

This is the law, but as I said before it is not always followed (especially in rural area's were most cops don't know half the laws anyway)

I guess what im trying to say is, Nitro buddy, you weren't doing a thing wrong. At first you were not trespassing, once you were informed you were on private property you technically were. At that point, and at that point only, you could have been charged with trespassing...Had you refused to leave!!

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing..I tried my best 


And yea I could spend another couple pages ranting about Ohio's riparian laws, but in short I think there absolute _____. It's sad such a great state has such horrible laws in place 



Short and simple...ehh I tried. lol


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

So does notification include signs that say No Fishing , No Hunting and such . I would think that you would need very deep pockets to ignore the signs .


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

aklac,you are right...........................for the most part.actually,you don't have to be told you're on private property to be trespassing in the eyes of the law.at least from my understanding of it.there's one key word in the trespass laws that was left out of your description.
that word is "knowingly".
in other words,if you "knowingly" enter private property,you are trespassing under the law.whether or not there is any signage,if you "know" you are on private property,you are trespassing,and can be charged.
now the key i guess,would be proof that you "know" the property is private.in certain cases it would be pretty obvious,while in others,not.so if the issue was pushed,and you were charged,it would probaly have to be proven in court one way or the other,in order to be found guilty or not.

as for portaging,the previous post on that is correct according to the laws i've read.it is legal to portage obstacles/barriers on "navigable" waters if necessary.and if i read the laws right,it is illegal for a landowner to place barriers on a navigable stream also.


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## CasualFisherman (May 21, 2004)

ACKLAC7:
"And you cannot be charged with trespassing untill, upon notification, you refuse to leave!!"

This statement is completely wrong. There is a reason law enforcement acts the way they do, they understand the statute and corresponding interpretations under common law. You are right that it that the post 1974 Statute was designed to remove both inadvertent and unprivleged trespass from being covered under the statute. Key word is INADVERTENT. You must understand that you can and will be charged with criminal trespass by simply fishing on private property. Just because you didn't see a sign does not mean it was not there and the burden is upon you to prove that the trespass was inadvertent. This means you must have a reasonable cause for you being there in the first place. If you are hunting or fishing an adjoining property that you have permission to be on and confuse the "unmarked" property line, then you have a pretty good case that your trespass was inadvertent. Simply not being notified directly is not a defense. Simply look at section A1 below. If your trespass is not privileged, and you knowingly enter the land of another (IE you do not own it or have permission to be on it) then you CAN be charged with Criminal Trespass. 

Quote: "MANY MANY PEOPLE (INCLUDING LAW ENFORCEMENT !!!) Assume the law goes something like this: "The fact that you don't own the property means it must be somone else's property, and since your on somone elses property your trespassing"...WRONG!"--- 

Actually this is the rationale found in common law/caselaw. You are right that this is not in the letter of the statute but Ohio is a common law state. The interpretations of the statute are more important than the statute themselves. Bottom line is if the trespass is not inadvertent, this actually holds true and the burden is on you to prove either the trespass was privileged (Portaging or docking during and emergency, etc) or that is was inadvertent. If neither apply, you are guilty. 


Not to pick on you ACKLAC, I am friendly passionate on the issue as well.   
Enough on this, Its time to go fishing!!!!!!!

_2911.21 Criminal trespass.

(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:

(1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;

(2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;

(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

(B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.

(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception.

(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

(E) As used in this section, land or premises includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof._


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## NKUSigEp (Jun 21, 2007)

acklac7 said:


> Bottom line: Unless you are NOTIFIED that you are on private property (via sinage,fencing,gates etc. YOU ARE NOT TRESPASSING. Yes, you may be on someone else's property. However you are not technically trespassing untill you are informed that the land is privately owned. *And you cannot be charged with trespassing untill, upon notification, you refuse to leave!!*
> 
> There is an exclusion in the code for hunters and hunters only. Hunters must have written permission at all times, and don't need notification of ownership to be charged. This does not apply to anglers (last time I checked)
> 
> ...


I would think, just as with EVERYTHING else in this country, claiming ignorance doesn't cut it (I'm sorry officer, but there wasn't any signs saying "Please Do Not..."). It's your responsibility as a sportsman to know your W's (who, where, what, when, why, etc). It's not the responsibility of the landowner to tell you that your on his land. That's just dumb, ya know?

If you can find literature saying otherwise and point it out on here I'm sure that would shed some light on the subject, but all my OH Fishing Rules and Regulations and the ODNR website state otherwise, so I'll go by what they have in black and white just in case.

EDIT: See the post immediately preceeding mine.


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## fishymcgoo (Jul 20, 2005)

the people that have the common sense to ask a landowner if they can fish arent the ones who are leaving the trash behind. regardless of what the law says i always try to ask landowners if they mind if i fish. not because i am worried about trespassing but because it just seems to make my fishing trip more enjoyable. i have been granted permission far more than not. usually i just move on if told no. i did have an interesting expierience with a landowner recently that when asked permission he told me that he would shoot me or anyone else who dared trespass on his land. aside of thinking what is wrong with this guy i suggested that he put up some signs because not everyone will ask for his permission. i could have argued with this guy and ruined my trip but i simply went next door and was granted permission to fish. it was that easy. a little common sense goes a long ways.


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

No I am fishing not hiking , no I am fishing not digging sang . So this fall all we have to do is carry a fishing pole with us when we go hunting bow or gun doesn't matter and we can go anywhere we want . 
I always wonder what to do with the pocket fisherman my father in-law gave me . I WILL JUST WHIP THAT BABY OUT OF MY BACKPACK . Kinda like the old game of tag when the tree was safe base or get out of jail free card .


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