# What is a good long range Muzzleoader?, need to upgrade



## ralph lepar (Nov 23, 2017)

Muzzleloader is 20 yrs. old like to upgrade. What's a good long-range rifle?


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

How much do you want to spend?


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## ralph lepar (Nov 23, 2017)

Smitty82 said:


> How much do you want to spend?


Not sure a couple of us looking. I have three a Thompson Omega stainless, Remington stainless, and an old hammer gun. Pretty sure the stainless ones were pretty expensive, but been so long ago don't remember. Want 150 grain gun accuracy #1 concern. Just got into the conversation while hunting figure this would be a good time of year to upgrade. If it weren't for Muzzleloader would not have gotten a deer this year.


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

CVA Accura with the nitride barrel. I have an optima v2 and dont plan on changing because the set up i have works. but if id ever buy another one i would go with the accura nitride barrel.


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## squid_1 (Jun 2, 2005)

www.hankinscustomrifles.com shoot as far as you would like. Smokeless conversion.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

I watched one of his videos. He shot a doe at 400 yards with a muzzle loader.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

Smitty82 said:


> CVA Accura with the nitride barrel. I have an optima v2 and dont plan on changing because the set up i have works. but if id ever buy another one i would go with the accura nitride barrel.


get the accura v2 nitride finish in the long range version with 30" barrel. or the 45 cal long range. both are priced at 450.00 with scope mount. they claim to be the most accurate production ML on the market with the bergara barrel.
sherman


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

What kind of accuracy are you looking for? Honestly, nearly every “name brand” gun out there will shoot pretty well, certainly good enough to kill a deer at 150 yards. Even the cheaper guns can surprise you. You don’t have to spend much if you’re looking for just an Ohio whitetail gun.


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## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

There's a lot of good reading here

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/


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## mmtchell (Jul 9, 2014)

I have a t/C impact 50cal ..I can touch rings at 100 and have shot deer out to 160 yards,, very accurate and think I paid 199 bucks new ,,,that's all I need in ohio


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## mmtchell (Jul 9, 2014)

And I shoot hornady fpb 350 grain , with 100 grains of triple 7,,,


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

If you are ready to jump to smokeless I have a Laminate /ss, Savage Henry Ball Limited, 50 cal (original barrel stamped with the Limited #) fitted with a 45 cal PacNor match grade barrel, piller and bedded, Warne detachable rings, Burris 4x12 ballistic plex scope, powder, bullets, sabots.

Shoots Barnes 180 gr solid copper, Vihtavuori N-120, 2600-2750 FPS based upon powder charge at under 1-1/2" at 200 yds. It is a point and shoot 200 yd gun and easily groups right at 3" at 300 yds using the ballistic hashes in the scope. I have never had need to shoot a deer at that range but I shot at the range many times at extended yardages. This is a pinpoint accurate deer killing piece of equipment. Smokeless is very clean and makes it very easy to keep your gun clean. I would clean once or twice per year. Smokeless MZ's are not for everybody, but there is no more efficient platform to pour powder in your barrel, push in a bullet and go bang with so much performance.

I also agree that almost any brand or model of any of the MZ's sold today will do what nearly anyone would ever need from a MZ.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

M.Magis said:


> What kind of accuracy are you looking for? *Honestly, nearly every “name brand” gun out there will shoot pretty well, certainly good enough to kill a deer at 150 yards. *Even the cheaper guns can surprise you. You don’t have to spend much if you’re looking for just an Ohio whitetail gun.





Lundy said:


> If you are ready to jump to smokeless I have a Laminate /ss, Savage Henry Ball Limited, 50 cal (original barrel stamped with the Limited #) fitted with a 45 cal PacNor match grade barrel, piller and bedded, Warne detachable rings, Burris 4x12 ballistic plex scope, powder, bullets, sabots.
> 
> Shoots Barnes 180 gr solid copper, Vihtavuori N-120, 2600-2750 FPS based upon powder charge at under 1-1/2" at 200 yds. It is a point and shoot 200 yd gun and easily groups right at 3" at 300 yds using the ballistic hashes in the scope. I have never had need to shoot a deer at that range but I shot at the range many times at extended yardages. This is a pinpoint accurate deer killing piece of equipment. Smokeless is very clean and makes it very easy to keep your gun clean. I would clean once or twice per year. *Smokeless MZ's are not for everybody, but there is no more efficient platform to pour powder in your barrel, push in a bullet and go bang with so much performance.
> 
> I also agree that almost any brand or model of any of the MZ's sold today will do what nearly anyone would ever need from a MZ.*


Agree with all these statements.
Heck...the TC Omega and the Remington you currently own are most likely capable of every bit of 150-200yd accuracy.
Buddy shoots an older Omega and is wicked with it out to 200yds once he switched his load/charge to what the rifle wanted instead of tryin to force feed it Powerbelts with an overpowering charge of powder for them. He now shoots Barnes 250grn TEZ's with 100grns of Blackhorn 209.
And I have the Remington as well that doesn't get much use anymore(but that will change this summer) that shot either 250grn Hornady SST or TC Shockwave's very well out to about 175yds. with 90grns Pyrodex and #11 percussion cap.
Getting it modified to shoot Blackhorn 209 and be trying the Barnes bullets in it this summer. Bet it will get out 200yds+.

Saying all that...if'n you just want a new ml...again, like others have said, about anything out there with a 1x28 twist bbl built today will get the job done if'n the right load is worked up. And since most all built today can shoot the Blackhorn 209 powder that make clean on most a breeze, cleaning has mostly become a non issue. What I would pay attention to and compare is how 'user friendly' different brands are.


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## 0utwest (Mar 21, 2017)

ralph lepar said:


> Muzzleloader is 20 yrs. old like to upgrade. What's a good long-range rifle?


What is your definition of long range ? 250 yds ?


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

I was also wondering what was wrong with the TC and Remington? Those should both do fine. I had a Remington Model 700 in .45 caliber that shot well. I know guys with the Omegas, and they shoot well.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

But if you just want a new gun, I can totally understand. It’s always exciting to get a new gun!


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

the new long range cva accura claims 300 yrds. but you need plenty of practice at those ranges to consistently hit your target out 200 yrds or farther. I personally wouldnt try anything over about 150 yrds even though the gun is made for longer shots. I don't practice long shots at all so I limit my shots to my abilities.
sherman


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Most of the 300 yard shots i see on youtube have the gun in a vice. There is too much movement in the body to shoot at those range holding the gun. my kingdom for a branch about 5 foot high to set the barrel of a gun on next to a deer trail.


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

300 yards is a long shot period. Don’t care what gun you’re using. What I like about the cva accura is the barrel and the nitride finish.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

hailtothethief said:


> Most of the 300 yard shots i see on youtube have the gun in a vice. There is too much movement in the body to shoot at those range holding the gun. my kingdom for a branch about 5 foot high to set the barrel of a gun on next to a deer trail.


anyone taking a long range shot without a good rest at a deer doesn't have any respect for them.

when I shot in marine corps boot camp we shot at 200, 300, and 500 yrds with the M-14. we only shot the 200 offhand at a good sized bulls eye. there was a lot of misses at 200 yrds offhand. 300 was shot at a silhouette of a mans shoulders and head. I think we shot in the sitting, and prone positions with some misses in the setting position. the 500 was the prone position only. and there was still some misses.

we were taught by experts on how to shoot. the sling end was taken loose then wrapped around our arm and pulled up tight when the butt was placed in the shoulder so the rifle didnt move. I only scored 244 out of a possible 250 points. and I was the 3rd highest score out of 76 other marines in our platoon. we were taught at and practiced at these ranges. and offhand misses were common at 200 yrs. the targets were scored 1 through 5 points on all targets. I was a expert marksman the 4 yrs I spent in the corps. and wore my expert badge proudly.

I was a great shot back then but wouldnt attempt to shoot those ranges now. I limit my shots to about 150 yrds with a good rest.
sherman


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## RH1 (Apr 13, 2013)

That Remington 700 is a great muzzleloader. My son has taken a pile of deer over the years with his out to 150yds. IMO Shooting those distances mentioned with a muzzleloader at a whitetail equals 0 respect for the animals. On Monday I had a great buck at 175 yds across the field. I had the T/C on him but to much movement of the crosshairs even with my shooting stick. To me this is like listening to guys talk about buying a crossbow because they are accurate to 100yds or buying the fastest compound bow so you can shoot farther. 
A bow is not a muzzleloader, a muzzleloader is not a high power rifle. 
We as hunters owe it to the animal's to know the limitations of the equipment we are hunting with. Focus more on scouting and stand placement to ensure reasonable and ethical ranges for the weapon you are hunting with.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

RH1 said:


> ...
> A bow is not a muzzleloader, a muzzleloader is not a high power rifle.
> *We as hunters owe it to the animal's to know the limitations of the equipment we are hunting with. Focus more on scouting and stand placement to ensure reasonable and ethical ranges for the weapon you are hunting with*.


IMHO, again, there's not many current inlines using the 209 ignition system couple with a 1x28 twist bbl that's not capable of shooting at least 200yds. very accurately..and most inlines are capable of shooting much better than the person pulling the trigger.
And that's simply because the shooter doesn't practice at those distances enough to get confident enough to shoot at those distances, doesn't realize how much a 10mph crosswind will move a projectile when shooting 200yds(or even 150yds for that matter)again, cause they don't shoot at that distance which results in that person not knowing the conditions in which they can/should shoot or not. Then, many don't shoot enough making incremental changes to their loads ringing out the accuracy their rifle is capable of. In short, they really don't know what their rifle is capable of cause they haven't spent enough time with it to know.

Thinking your first sentence in bold print should read,
' We as hunters owe it to the animals to know *'our own'* limitations with the equipment we are using.'
Again, most of my equip. is capable of shooting much better than I.


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## RH1 (Apr 13, 2013)

fastwater said:


> IMHO, again, there's not many current inlines using the 209 ignition system couple with a 1x28 twist bbl that's not capable of shooting at least 200yds. very accurately..and most inlines are capable of shooting much better than the person pulling the trigger.
> And that's simply because the shooter doesn't practice at those distances enough to get confident enough to shoot at those distances, doesn't realize how much a 10mph crosswind will move a projectile when shooting 200yds(or even 150yds for that matter)again, cause they don't shoot at that distance which results in that person not knowing the conditions in which they can/should shoot or not. Then, many don't shoot enough making incremental changes to their loads ringing out the accuracy their rifle is capable of. In short, they really don't know what their rifle is capable of cause they haven't spent enough time with it to know.
> 
> Thinking your first sentence in bold print should read,
> ...


My apologies for upsetting you, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers 
I absolutely agree with what you are saying. That's the point I am trying to make in my post. 
The majority of the hunters I know including myself don't practice enough or become proficient enough with there muzzleloader at that yardage to respectfully make ethical shots at those distances..


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## lawrence1 (Jul 2, 2008)

muzzleloader>straight wall cartridge


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

RH1 said:


> My apologies for upsetting you, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers
> I absolutely agree with what you are saying. That's the point I am trying to make in my post.
> The majority of the hunters I know including myself don't practice enough or become proficient enough with there muzzleloader at that yardage to respectfully make ethical shots at those distances..


Absolutely no apologies necessary RH.
No ruffled feathers at all.
Know many guys that never get their 'artillery of choice' out all year long until the week before season and then wonder why they never kill a deer while shooting up a case of ammo when affield. Either that, or they wound a deer and never recover it simply due to their lack of shooting their weapon enough to know where it's hitting.
IMO, just like someone who doesn't shoot longer distances enough to know whether to shoot or not and them not respecting their quarry, neither do these types of hunters. And have seen plenty on both sides of the fence.

We owe it to our quarry if we are going to hunt it to find the time to practice enough and do everything in our power to kill what we are shooting at as humanely as possible...and that includes knowing and staying within our limits.

We have one guy that sometimes comes down and hunts with us that's a friend of one of the regulars in our group. A couple years ago, he shows up BP season Friday night before opening day with an old rusted up CVA, #11 percussion cap, plunger style inline.
He gets it out and said he tried to load it Thurs. night but couldn't load it cause the sabot wouldn't seat all the way and he couldn't get the plunger to pull back to put a cap on. So he's got 90grns of powder in and the projectile stuck halfway down the bbl.
When asked when was the last time he shot it, he said the year prior. His buddy asked me to look at it. I did and when I saw that even the plunger was rusted to the point it wouldn't even pull back, I handed it back to him saying we don't have enough hours left before morning to fix it. The guy ended up using a spare rifle another guy brought.
The very next year the night before shotgun season with an old raggedy Mossburg 500 that when you loaded it and tried to rack the second round into the chamber, the round would fall out the bottom of the reciever. Again, he had not shot the thing all year.
What makes matters worse is this guy has $ and is more than capable of having state of the art equipment. IMO, He just doesn't respect his quarry enough to even attempt do what he should do as a responsible person(almost called him a hunter).


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

RH1 said:


> My apologies for upsetting you, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers
> I absolutely agree with what you are saying. That's the point I am trying to make in my post.
> The majority of the hunters I know including myself don't practice enough or become proficient enough with there muzzleloader at that yardage to respectfully make ethical shots at those distances..


I don't disagree with anything. However the capability of the gun helps offset the lack of ability of the shooter. I started deer hunting in Ohio in 1965. The choice of hunting guns and ammunition was extremely limited. The old smooth bore shotgun that you hunted birds and rabbits with became to deer gun. Purchase some foster slugs and hope you could hit something at 50 yds. As time went by then there were smooth bore slugs guns with open chokes and rifled sights, those were the cats meow. They still shot the foster slugs and accuracy wasn't much better but the aiming system was much improved and the open chokes improved accuracy many fold over the old full choke rabbit guns. Then the rifled barrel and sabot slugs, cantilever scope mount barrels, dedicated bolt action slug guns with integral scope mounts, etc, etc, all were advancements in capability that helped reduce the influence of shooter skill on a positive outcome. To me, today having a gun that is capable at long yardages should not be a endorsement of taking long shots but rather a platform that makes the average hunters shot a much higher percentage clean kill shot. Today if a hunter knows that with a solid rest he can hold center of a deer out to 150 yds and not need to be concerned if the deer is 120 yds or150 yds and still make a clean kill shot that is a huge advancement over what we used to have to hunt with where a difference of 10-20 yds in yardage made the difference in a clean kill or a wounded deer. We will NEVER have average hunters that practice shooting enough to truly know the capability of the guns they hunt with or become skilled enough to always make good shots. In that reality, for the sake of the deer, I want the most capable gun in their hands that they can get to help offset what they themselves lack.


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## lawrence1 (Jul 2, 2008)

If you only want to out shoot your buddies, ride the four wheeler to a box blind or just insist on shooting ridge to ridge, get the Paramount (1 in 22 twist). Most hunters should opt for something lighter and less expensive.


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## 0utwest (Mar 21, 2017)

Also you start shooting long range you need to consider bullet expansion , Case in point I drew a Arizona bull Elk tag about 5 years ago and I shoot .50 cal. Knight 3 pellets (150 grain ) charge and Barnes all copper Bullets and made a call to them about my set up . The guy spent every bit of 20 minutes going over which of there bullets would work best , My velocity at certain yardages and came up with about a 250 yard limit for proper bullet expansion on elk . Well 4 days later sitting on top of a hill with a bipod on my gun I finally had a bull in my comfort zone at 225 yds and that barnes rocked him and if he would have been anything over 250 i would have let him walk .


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Lundy said:


> I don't disagree with anything. However the capability of the gun helps offset the lack of ability of the shooter. I started deer hunting in Ohio in 1965. The choice of hunting guns and ammunition was extremely limited. The old smooth bore shotgun that you hunted birds and rabbits with became to deer gun. Purchase some foster slugs and hope you could hit something at 50 yds. As time went by then there were smooth bore slugs guns with open chokes and rifled sights, those were the cats meow. They still shot the foster slugs and accuracy wasn't much better but the aiming system was much improved and the open chokes improved accuracy many fold over the old full choke rabbit guns. Then the rifled barrel and sabot slugs, cantilever scope mount barrels, dedicated bolt action slug guns with integral scope mounts, etc, etc, all were advancements in capability that helped reduce the influence of shooter skill on a positive outcome. To me, today having a gun that is capable at long yardages should not be a endorsement of taking long shots but rather a platform that makes the average hunters shot a much higher percentage clean kill shot. Today if a hunter knows that with a solid rest he can hold center of a deer out to 150 yds and not need to be concerned if the deer is 120 yds or150 yds and still make a clean kill shot that is a huge advancement over what we used to have to hunt with where a difference of 10-20 yds in yardage made the difference in a clean kill or a wounded deer. We will NEVER have average hunters that practice shooting enough to truly know the capability of the guns they hunt with or become skilled enough to always make good shots. In that reality, for the sake of the deer, I want the most capable gun in their hands that they can get to help offset what they themselves lack.


What Lundy says X 5....I love my Savage smokeless with the N120 and Barnes bullets. I know if I want to and have have the proper rest 300 is no problem, but....I have never taken a 300 or even a 250 yd shot at a live target, but, I know I am capable, or at least my equipment is capable, of the shot. At 76 I don't shoot as much so I will stick to the standard 50-100 yd shots that present themselves with my Savage or my 45-70. Still squirrel hunt with a Browning Buckmark 22 pistol though


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

Hatchetman said:


> What Lundy says X 5....I love my Savage smokeless with the N120 and Barnes bullets. I know if I want to and have have the proper rest 300 is no problem, but....I have never taken a 300 or even a 250 yd shot at a live target, but, I know I am capable, or at least my equipment is capable, of the shot. At 76 I don't shoot as much so I will stick to the standard 50-100 yd shots that present themselves with my Savage or my 45-70. Still squirrel hunt with a Browning Buckmark 22 pistol though


I would say 75% or better of my shots are less than 50 yrds. 125 yrds has been my longest shot. anything over about 150 yrd is safe from me. I have faith the encore could shoot and be accurate at longer ranges. but im 68 now and even with a rest its hard to be steady.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

I like my woods gun shots 60 to 90 y rds..... preferably 60..... Depends on the feeder , haven't used the 80yrd one for so many years , but WILL in the future if another bow hunter is hunting , I have tree stands by both feeders in between the shooting house for bow season..... past years it seemed the bucks used one and doe's used the other..... then I got spoiled


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## Ranger621WW (Aug 19, 2013)

I purchased the Remington 700 ultimate mag with a leupold scope a couple of years ago and absolutely love this gun. They claim it to be a 300 yrd gun and although my furthest shot was 187 yrds (rangefinder) 10 pt which dropped it in its tracks- I would not hesitate to shoot out to 300 yrds


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I liked the one this yr with my muzzy. 12 steps from my tree and getting closer with each second. dropped her in her tracks.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

My TC omega is very accurate. As mentioned before it took time and patience to find the combination of powder type, load, bullet design and weight in order to shoot 1 inch 100 yard groups. 150 yards would be my limit because that is as far as I’ve ever shot it. Also, I know that my sabot drops significantly past 150 yards and that I would need to rangefind any distance beyond that.......and wind drift is also a huge factor beyond 100 yards. 
If you haven’t done so, I encourage you to determine your bullets velocity, coefficient and plug the numbers into a ballistic calculator on line. Especially the wind drift surprised me. Much more than I would have thought.


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