# Fly Fishing Etiquette



## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

This is in PA how many things are wrong with this screen photo? Let us have a conversation about it cause we have all been there at one time or another.


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## dugworm (May 23, 2008)

Photos don't show much. Looks like a good time to me. Whatever is going on.


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## snagless-1 (Oct 26, 2014)

I have noticed since this corona,more people out of the house.Places where I would see nobody on the river,the boat launch,hike an and bike trails,everywhere.Can not wait til it,s over,get ready to buy kayaks and bikes cheap.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

PA going to have to go to "draw fishing".


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

in my opinion these guys are fishing a hole so small the three gentleman from the left right hopefully are friends cause to be with in 30 feet of me each is to close. The crowd mentality is something I did, but I grew out of it fast. If the hole your fishing is as big a Pacer you cant fit three ppl in it! The distance between the 4th guy is much better. The 5th guy well we all know why he is fishing the riffles..lol..


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

looks like the grand


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

lol.. whoops I just got what u meant ..lol...


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## Karl Wolf (Apr 26, 2020)

This is why I'm not much into steelhead anymore.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

KW true story your not alone! I know I fish miles up stream of every one to have peace and quiet and the chance of hooking a fish. I dont even have to land the fish I just enjoy swinging flies and hookin up!


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## loomis82 (Nov 27, 2012)

First things first i see no coolers full of beer !!! I'm out


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## loomis82 (Nov 27, 2012)

In all seriousness that's steelhead fishing now. With all the social media, internet forums such as the one we are on right here this is the new normal. You need to do you homework and find spots that are secluded be it way up rivers or a smaller stream. Know to that you may not have that secret spot for long. Get a canoe or yak it'll open up a lot more options. Its 2020 get used to crowds or do something about and complaining on here wont solve crap. When i used to steelhead fish it would be a busy day if i saw three people and that was on the Vermillion. Go there now and that wont happen in the lower stretches its just the way it is.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

I know our steelhead rivers look like Walnut Creek in PA. We all have secret spots still to this day and in alot of cases we fish for much for fewer fish. I have floated the creeks and rivers since the early ninetys and the amount of posted lands still make me sick but its our fault. As a land surveyor I know just because you enter through public lands "unlike Michigain" its illegal to fish once your feet comes in contact with the ground on posted property Im not complaining friend about how the ppl fish. What I am complaning about is how close ppl want to fish next to each other that is my point. Your right because of the internet hero guides, non guides, and sites like this have helped cause the collapse of alot of access in many states. I also realize when you use the word "you" you are not talking about me, but as a community your making your point.


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## ohiotuber (Apr 15, 2004)

I'm not into "gang-fishing" either. I have caught fish, had another fly fisherman wade right into my hole, & I LEAVE. I don't have the time to try teaching manners & etiquette to those types. I'll either find another hole or head to one of the ponds/quiet lakes I fish. On the other hand, I will (and have) share(d) the pattern/fly working for me. As the saying goes, "what goes around comes around".
one productive day on the clearfork, another fly fisherman stood on shore & asked what they were hitting. I waded out, gave him a couple flies & told him to catch some while I took a break. After he got a couple, he came out & we talked & had a drink. He was a nice guy & a true sportsman. THAT was a good day on the water.
Tight lines to all!!
Mike


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## mas5588 (Apr 15, 2012)

I'll be 40 in Feb and I tell my dad, with some regularity, that one of the things I'm most appreciative of him teaching me, was that you're not the only car on the road, not the only person in the store, etc. Basically, pay attention to what you're doing and how it affects other people around you. 

That's one of my biggest issues with steelhead fishing. I see a guy fishing within 100 yards of the hole I was planning to fish and it makes me uncomfortable to fish that spot. What if that guy was heading up/down to that hole? I guess it's a part of this type of fishing, but I'm likely way too conservative when it comes to giving people space.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Mas..

Your mindfulness will and is serving you well. Im the same way always thinking of others before myself. We all can learn something from this but we all need to realize we can learn from anyone and anything.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Meh, looks like Pa. to me. . . .


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

You guys should come over for opening day of trout in the spring! Shoulder to shoulder in some places.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

Those photos are just PA fishing, but I still love it. 

My first trip to Elk creek, was day after thanksgiving, 2002. I'm still barely catching steel. I park at bridge on lower Elk, see half a dozen guys fishing pool from both sides the size of an inground swimming pool. A couple fish coming in, water is perfect green. They ask me if I want to join, but I say thank you, and I keep walking downstream, half a mile to get to open spot. I take the plunge as Im crossing in the water. Thought I broke my rod, arm, shoulder, but I was OK, just wet and embarrassed. A PA guy comes over to make sure I'm OK. Which I was, he gives me some pointers on flies to use and I keep going to the pool I found with nobody fishing. Takes me a couple hours, but I land a 31 incher. My first over 30 inch fish. I was cold now and went back to the car to warm up. My point is I have found PA people to be the friendliest bunch on a river. I have never had an experience in PA that has changed that. 

Rickerd


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

Sonder said:


> I know our steelhead rivers look like Walnut Creek in PA. We all have secret spots still to this day and in alot of cases we fish for much for fewer fish. I have floated the creeks and rivers since the early ninetys and the amount of posted lands still make me sick but its our fault. As a land surveyor I know just because you enter through public lands "unlike Michigain" its* illegal to fish* once your feet comes in contact with the ground on posted property Im not complaining friend about how the ppl fish. What I am complaning about is how close ppl want to fish next to each other that is my point. Your right because of the internet hero guides, non guides, and sites like this have helped cause the collapse of alot of access in many states. I also realize when you use the word "you" you are not talking about me, but as a community your making your point.


I just want to point out something according to my research. It is not "Illegal" to be in contact with the ground under a navigable waterway. The courts have interpreted those rights differently in many states. It is up to the local law enforcement on how they are treated. Many states law enforcement are simply bullying people to stay off private lands, which contain access easements from the beginning of our country. As a surveyor, I'm sure you understand access easements. They have never been removed by change of law to my knowledge. 

The right, to use navigable waterways, to the first flood line, was written into our earliest laws in the US. The judges, who have taken it upon themselves to interpret based on their "opinion" has changed the way law enforcement behaves, but the LAWS are still in our favor. I do not go onto private lands without permission, but, I believe liberal judges have reduced rights outdoor people are entitled to. Maybe one day we can have the freedom to roam as was intended by our founding fathers.

Rickerd


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## ohiotuber (Apr 15, 2004)

mas5588 said:


> *I'll be 40 in Feb and I tell my dad, with some regularity, that one of the things I'm most appreciative of him teaching me, was that you're not the only car on the road, not the only person in the store, etc. Basically, pay attention to what you're doing and how it affects other people around you. *
> 
> That's one of my biggest issues with steelhead fishing. I see a guy fishing within 100 yards of the hole I was planning to fish and it makes me uncomfortable to fish that spot. What if that guy was heading up/down to that hole? I guess it's a part of this type of fishing, but I'm likely way too conservative when it comes to giving people space.


BINGO! In fishing, golf, bowling, etc, my Dad insisted we learn the proper etiquette FIRST! He would say, "we may be poor, but we can afford manners & we can afford to treat others with respect". In other words, practice the Golden Rule.
Mike


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Wonder if that is the ELK steelheaders? If so, then that would be uncrowded. 🤪😏


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Rickerd what are navigable water ways in the state of Ohio? The last navigable water way survey was done in 1855 - 1908 by the federal government. The waters in Ohio are in the trust of the state, but the ground the waters flow over are owned by a person. Riparian law is very strange just ask all the ppl around the Great Lakes Shore line that are fighting with every one about where there property lines start and stop. Access easements thats interesting do you have any documents on this. I have not seen except for Michigain and thats in there states constitution how ppl can access n fish there water ways.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Shortdrift said:


> Wonder if that is the ELK steelheaders? If so, then that would be uncrowded. 🤪😏


lol Very True SD..lol...


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

I have had personal mettings with the ODNR on this subject so I am very interested in this, and being a land surveyor you have my full attention.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Here is the Navigle Water Ways list for Ohio



https://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/Portals/45/docs/regulatory/Section10NavigableWaterways/waterwayOH.pdf


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

A good post from before:









Navigable rivers and the Law


I was always under the impression that access to a river was legal, as long as you stayed in the boat, didn't touch the bank...or even the land under the water, because it was owned by the landowner and his ownership rights of that land prevailed. After reading so many threads of fellow...




www.ohiogamefishing.com


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

__





American Whitewater


The primary advocate for the preservation and protection of whitewater rivers throughout the United States and connects the interests of human-powered recreational river users with ecological and science-based data to achieve goals within our mission.




www.americanwhitewater.org







https://epa.ohio.gov/Portals/35/401/rulescomments/Navigable-Waters-Protection-Rule-OhioEPA-May-7-2020.pdf


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## bassclef (Jul 25, 2013)

Those photos are from the webcam at Uncle John's Elk Creek Campground.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Yes they are and it's a source of entertainment for me lol


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

These are all quotes directly from the CFR

Title 33 of the CFR Code of Federal Regulations;
§ 2.36 Navigable waters of the United States, navigable waters, and territorial waters. (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, navigable waters of the United States, navigable waters, and territorial waters mean, except where Congress has designated them not to be navigable waters of the United States: 

§ 329.9 Time at which commerce exists or determination is made.
(a) _Past use._ A waterbody which was navigable in its natural or improved state, or which was susceptible of reasonable improvement (as discussed in § 329.8(b) of this part) retains its character as “navigable in law” even though it is not presently used for commerce, or is presently incapable of such use because of changed conditions or the presence of obstructions. Nor does absence of use because of changed economic conditions affect the legal character of the waterbody. Once having attained the character of “navigable in law,” the Federal authority remains in existence, and cannot be abandoned by administrative officers or court action. Nor is mere inattention or ambiguous action by Congress an abandonment of Federal control. However, express statutory declarations by Congress that described portions of a waterbody are non-navigable, or have been abandoned, are binding upon the Department of the Army. Each statute must be carefully examined, since Congress often reserves the power to amend the Act, or assigns special duties of supervision and control to the Secretary of the Army or Chief of Engineers.
(b) _Future or potential use._ Navigability may also be found in a waterbody's susceptibility for use in its ordinary condition or by reasonable improvement to transport interstate commerce. This may be either in its natural or improved condition, and may thus be existent although there has been no actual use to date. Non-use in the past therefore does not prevent recognition of the potential for future use.

Therefore it takes an act of Congress to remove a waterway from the Navigable waters of the US, including OHio.

For the purposes of transferring property title into public property, the definition of a Navigable waterways closely follows 33 CFR 329. For the purpose of establishing which river is public and therefore state-owned, what is navigable is a constitutional question defined by Federal case law. (See _PPL Montana v Montana_ (2012).) If a river was considered navigable at the time of statehood, the land below the navigable water was conveyed to the state as part of the transportation network in order to facilitate commerce. Most states retained title to these navigable rivers in trust for the public. Some states divested themselves of title to the land below navigable rivers, but a federal navigable servitude remains if the river is a navigable waterway.

Did US congress ever remove all the streams in Ohio from the time it became a state? I doubt it but not willing to continue the search.

This is where I'm coming from. MI gets it right. Why can't OH and PA. Actually, PA is closer than OH now because of the "Donny Beaver" case.

Hey, I just want to be able to wander the streams God made for us to explore. I don't litter, or take a fish outside of the regulations. I might just want to glide by in my boat and stop to wade, these are within the legal parameters our forefathers intended.

Rickerd


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

I will take a few days and read this and pull the documents I need and respond. Thank you for getting me this information.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Still wading through all of this. I have learned some new things and I need to get some clairification on a few items from some sources at the Federal and State level of Government.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Of course through all the Zombie Apocolypse and Post toilet paper shortage I am waiting to hear back from the Federal, State, and Local contacts I have.


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## ejsell (May 3, 2012)

Certain spots in PA you kinda expect to be crowded in and that's one of them. I made that mistake the first time I went over there. It's good for gossip and story telling if that's what you are looking for. What kills me is people pay to park and fish there. And honestly that's not as crowded as Walnut or the Legion hole. I've never fished Walnut but watched it for the entertainment. Legion was my first and really only time "combat" fishing. 

Fishing several miles up river from there a few weeks ago, we were in a less "dense" area. After seeing me hook into a fish a guy decides he wants to make friends with me and sets up about 15feet below me even though we had a very long run all to ourselves. After about 5 minutes of not saying anything he asked me if he was too close. I half jokingly told him to let me know when my fly smacked him in the face. He did move down a few more feet but then his buddy showed up and decided there was plenty of room between us. 

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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Ok I just got off the phone with a Lieutenant from the ODNR division of water craft law enforcement. He has stated to me as most of us know that the land owner owns the stream bed. 

I have found several sources that we have the right to safe portage an obstruction but you must not cause harm to the lands your accessing and continue your float. 

We have zero rights to any ones private lands if we do not have permission to be there. We can float it but we can't get out of our water craft for any other reason other than to portage legally. 

I am still waiting to hear back from two other Federal entities.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Caveat I am not a lawyer or a Browns fan ..lol.. but its all of our responsibilities to know the law and its also up to all of us to make well informed decisions when we do anything in life so please be responsible.


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

You still have to understand that a Lawman's word is not the same as the Law at times. The Law is the Law written down in the United States. That is why we are a Constitutional Republic. The Laws must be written, voted and approved. 

The Lawman is going to tell you what he will enforce. If they step out of bounds of the Law, it is up to us to appeal the decision to a judge. 

There is a story of a person in Ohio last year on OGF, who was written a ticket by DNR for paddling into water not meant for visitors. Even though he never stepped out or anchored. A sign was down at the entry to the back area. The ticket was written, the OGF member went to judge to protest, he won. Because he was following the Law. 

I'm not saying its best to go against what the Lawmen are saying, but they can be a part of the problem and certainly have been in many cases of Use of Navigable waters.
Rickerd


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

I only wanted to get the ODNR person to tell me what I already know. If you stand on a river bed that is posted no trespassing in the state of Ohio your are trespassing period and you will lose in a court room every time. He won OK well he would have cause the waters he was floating are owned by the state of Ohio period. The land owner only owns the river bed and not the water flowing over it. I will address the term navigable waters when I talk to my contacts. The term navigable is used to loosely and is very misunderstood by many.


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

hello folks Im still working on this.....


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## ejsell (May 3, 2012)

Sonder said:


> hello folks Im still working on this.....


If you do a forum search you'll find the same arguments and "answers" repeatedly. Although the case Rickerd is referring to did have a slightly different spin/unique situation and was an interesting read if you can find it. 

P.S. For bonus reading, if you are not already aware of them, look up the Ohio Erie Lake Shore cases. 

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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

Lake shore different situation than river bed to first flood line. Understand I am only arguing from the point of written law. 
We live in a country which is unique for being a Constitutional Republic. Laws to be enforced must be written down and voted and approved. 

I encounter quite a bit of government bullying in my business representing property owners seeking to develop their properties. Now the state of Ohio is one of the best groups of Building Officials across the country IMHO. Some states like NY, CO, CA, WA, are often times obnoxious bullies IMO. I have managed developments in all those states and about a dozen others. "Develop the project how I say, or you can appeal to the courts" regardless of written law. Appeals take at least 6-12 months to win. No developer/ owner can afford to postpone a development by that time period. IMHO, Many of the state and local governments are using the same bully tactics regarding stream access rights. When someone has the time and money to fight the good fight, eventually Constitutional judges seem to agree. Recent cases in PA and MT are proving that out. Hope this trend continues.

Rickerd


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

Okay I have finally started talking to the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency and researching with them the things that have occurred in the past couple years regarding navigable water and the Army Corps of Engineers so stay tuned


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## Sonder (May 9, 2020)

I have not given up intalking with these folks they simply have not replied. After the first of the year I will re-reach out to them. Happy Holidays!


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