# AR under a grand



## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

I have about a grand to spend on a rifle, looking for an AR. Don't really have much experience shopping for/buying one. Just wondering how/where I can get the most bang for my buck. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks


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## Smallmouth Crazy (Apr 4, 2006)

You could pick up a Bushmaster, Smith or DPMS for a grand or less. I usually like to buy a complete lower first and then buy the upper seperate from one of the places online, its cheaper that way and you can get the upper more to your specifications.


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## monsterKAT11 (Jun 20, 2004)

build your own from delton. i built an AR with everything i could upgraded, for 750 bucks, then bought the lower for 150. cheapest price you'll find anywhere, unless you buy used. guaranteed.


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

Thanks, I'll look into that. You have to get it shipped to a gun store though right?


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## Smallmouth Crazy (Apr 4, 2006)

The lower has to go through a FFL, the rest you can recieve.


fisherman_517 said:


> Thanks, I'll look into that. You have to get it shipped to a gun store though right?


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

Here: http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php


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## buckeyeguy (Aug 20, 2006)

Just a word to the wise... Make sure you have an idea of what your planning to do with it before making/buying one. For instance, if you want something that will shoot tighter groups at longer distances make sure you get a 20+" barrel upper. If it's just something that you want for the gun safe and take it to the range for some 100-175yd shooting, the 16-18" barrels will be okay. If long range accuracy is top priority, I would suggest looking at some of the bull barreled uppers. 

I had posted before that I bought mine just after the elections and just wanted to get my hands on one. Ended up with a DPMS with a 16" barrel. The only modifications I have made to it was I put on a 4-12x44mm scope, changed the stock hand guards to a quad rail and added a verticle grip that breaks down into a bipod. I have been using hand loads and consistantly shoot sub 1.5" five shot groups with it at 100 yds (rested). Of course I would like to shrink the group size in half, but you can only ask so much out of a 16" barrel. I have thought about getting a trigger job or a new drop in unit, but can't justify the cost.

Also, make sure you know what round you want to shoot as well. 5.56 is not the same as .223. If you do piece yours together remember that you can't use a .308 upper with a 5.56 lower. The mag well is not large enough.


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

Take your time looking for one. Heck I would look for a used AR. Guys bought them during the panic and are now unloading them pretty cheap.


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## monsterKAT11 (Jun 20, 2004)

just another word of advice. if you're not dead set on shooting the 5.56 which is NOT the same as .223, but the difference is so small it doesn't matter...if you're not dead set on that caliber i would HIGHLY recommend building a 5.54X39 AR, you don't see the round too much especially in an AR but the upside of this round is you can pick up 1080 rounds of this stuff for 130 bucks! it pays for your ar in the long run!


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## bunkeru2k (Aug 26, 2005)

You can actually get the Del-ton kits for $465 and then get a stripped lower for anywhere from $75-150. That gets you a complete AR for under $700 and decent quality to boot.

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_16_s/57.htm


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

Del-ton are OK for a cheaper budet AR. Alot of guys that are casual plinkers have them and seem to like them
Buddy of mine bought one and the very first trip to the range brass would get stuck in chamber.
Once you pried out the brass you could see a scratch on it were the chamber was rough.
Contacted company but they didnt want to do anything for him. (They said it was a ammo problem, ya right)
We ended up fixing it ourselves. Took polishing compound and a brass brush/ mops and put them on a cleaning rod and a drill, and polished the chamber.
When through many brushes and mops and many different trips to the range but finally got the chamber smooth enough to eject brass

You can get a quality name brand upper for alittle more
Just our experience, yours may vary


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## bunkeru2k (Aug 26, 2005)

What ammo were you actually using? If it was any of the steel cased stuff it very well could have been the ammo.


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies, A friend of mine has a .22 AR and MP5 .22 that were both a blast to shoot and we could use them in the indoor range. I will probably end up picking up a .22 variant eventually. Also I am looking for a 16in barrel. I have shot them up to 500yds with them accurately. (maybe not a 1.in group but definitly on target.) Also I really do want to find a quality rifle that will last. And just a heads up for you shooters, I heard on the radio that gander mountain has boxes of 200 rounds of .223 ( I still want to keep calling 5.56mm) for $99. That seems to be the cheapest I have seen it altought I have't been paying too much attention.


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

You do some looking you can get 1000rds of brass cased 223 for around$320.00 Ammo prices have come down some from a few months ago


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## F1504X4 (Mar 23, 2008)

If you look into Ar15.com and go into the equipment exchange. There are a lot of used rifles on there and some have decent prices. That site will tell you anything and everything you want to know about AR rifles.


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## pj4wd (Dec 9, 2009)

I built both of these for around a grand each. Got the upper kits from Sherluk.When you put some nice optic's or flip up sights on them you'll pay a little extra.I put a two stage trigger in one, that cost a little extra too. You can build a nice AR for under a grand its the extras and the upgrades you do to them is what'll cost ya. But it's a fun project and you learn alot more about the rifle.


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## Smallmouth Crazy (Apr 4, 2006)

PMC seems to be on sale all over the place, Vances also has 200 rds of Federal XM193 on sale for $80.


Orlando said:


> You do some looking you can get 1000rds of brass cased 223 for around$320.00 Ammo prices have come down some from a few months ago


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

pj4wd said:


> I built both of these for around a grand each. Got the upper kits from Sherluk.When you put some nice optic's or flip up sights on them you'll pay a little extra.I put a two stage trigger in one, that cost a little extra too. You can build a nice AR for under a grand its the extras and the upgrades you do to them is what'll cost ya. But it's a fun project and you learn alot more about the rifle.


Nice, what was the total cost on the top one? that is pretty much what I am looking for only with a red dot sight.


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

Federal XM193 1000 rds for $309.98 delivered!!
Use code Free223 for free delivery. This week only, what a deal!!!

http://www.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?pid=1029735&ret_id=140211


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## Smallmouth Crazy (Apr 4, 2006)

Wish I had the spare change.


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

ya me to, best deal on 5.56 I have seen in a long time


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, only distance.


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

fallen513 said:


> Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, only distance.


Having a longer barrel gives a better sight plane which can help your accuracy


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

It increases velocity which hides use error better? Sends the bullet farther? 


For all practical purposes barrel length does nothing for accuracy. Promise.


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

Longer barrel gives better sight plane which can help shooter aim with more accuracy


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Orlando said:


> Longer barrel gives better sight plane which can help shooter aim with more accuracy



Perhaps in archery? 


The only thing a longer barrel does is add velocity my friend. 




*A 16" barrel is just as "accurate" as a 20" barrel, all else being equal. *


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

You arent grasping what I am saying and I'm tried of expalining it


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I grasp what you're saying, it just didn't make sense. A longer barrel does not increase accuracy, it's a widely known fact. Google it, grasp it & move on.  


What a longer barrel _does_ do is add weight & reduces maneuverability. 


The real question is what distance do you plan to shoot the most, and the answer will dictate which length barrel is best.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Saying a longer barrel increases accuracy is like saying your shooting glasses increase accuracy.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

And for the record, I like them all.  I built this one on an 18" heavy barrel with 1/8 twist, good for stabilizing 65 grain lead & under out over 500 yards.


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## buckeyeguy (Aug 20, 2006)

Not sure if I should get in this one or not, but what the heck. What Orlando is saying, is on open sighted guns, the longer the distance between the rear sight and the front sight post (especially in the instance of an AR sight system) the better sight picture you have. If you take the same aperature rear peep and the same post on a 16" and 20" barrel, the sight picture is tighter on the 20" thus giving you the best acuracy. It's the same reason some people shoot the longer barreled handguns when shooting for accuracy.

I'm pretty sure I get the point you are trying to make. But the same round will have slightly different ballistics out of different barrel lengths. The ballistics difference is when you start noticing the difference at Longer distances. As I'm sure you would agree, there many factors that make the difference in accuracy. And yes, shooting glasses do

Nice clean setup by the way!


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I understand what he's saying, I still don't agree though. 


I know what "sight radius" means.


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## pj4wd (Dec 9, 2009)

[quote}---Nice, what was the total cost on the top one? that is pretty much what I am looking for only with a red dot sight. [/quote]--------- Sorry it took so long to get back fisherman_517, If your interested in building one check Sherluk's web site.I bought the 16" moly barrel,A3 upper reciever and gas block with bolt & assem, the Quad rail hand guard, 6 pos. buttstock, Lower parts kit+grip, for around 550.00. I picked up the dpms lower reciever for 125.00. I just bought another lower rec. from deleware machine for 80.00 so look around a little and find a deal. So without sights or slings or any other trinkets you should be able to build one for around 700.00 ..Brownells has complete ar15 assem. on their site free. That helped me build mine. good luck.


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## pj4wd (Dec 9, 2009)

Just paging thru this weeks shotgun news and saw that "R Guns" has the DPMS sport tactical A3, 5.56 cal,16" barrel with 2 mags, cleaning kit, and hard case listed for $629,,,or 308 cal for $840.


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

Thanks I will have to check those out.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

fallen513 said:


> Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, only distance.




I wouldnt say it has nothing to do with accuracy , when using good old fashioned iron sights at the maximum range of the weapon , lining up the sights down a long barrel on a target is more precise. Move those sights significantly closer together and see what effect it has if you doubt it. Using a scope or laser sights though barrel length would make no difference.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

wow montagc , we both posted basically the same thing at nearly the same time...that was strange.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Compare rifles to handguns , there is more than one reason a handgun is usually less accurate than a rifle but one of them is sighting down a short barrel.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

A longer barrel has nothing to do with accuracy. 


Simply because you all agree means nothing (except you're all wrong). 


Read up. 




http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_50/ai_110470564/



http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm




> It is worth mentioning that a longer barrel is *not* inherently more accurate than a short barrel. *Intrinsic accuracy is a matter of quality, not length.* However, a longer barrel is generally better in terms of practical accuracy, because a longer and therefore heavier barrel (within reason) is easier to hold relatively steady from unsupported positions; thus it is easier to shoot a long barreled rifle accurately.






So while your points are noted (and even underlined for you), the bold still holds true. Longer does not equal "more" accuracy, only improved sight radius...which in itself means NOTHING if the barrel is not a quality, well machined piece of equipment to begin with. 


Right? 


http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/



> Shorter barrels are actually often more accurate than their longer counterparts. A rifle barrel is a cantilevered beam and as such they sag. More sag results in more whip and vibration as the bullet travels down the bore. Barrel sag induces longitudinal stress that can cause stringing of shots. Using a shorter, heavier barrel minimizes reduces stress and accuracy-robbing barrel vibration. A shorter barrel is stiffer and vibrates at a less.





Right? Say it with me: Longer barrel does not mean more accurate.

http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length



> Simply put, barrel length (within reason) does not affect accuracy within a manner many people believe. My personal rifle, based off of a Remington 700 action, has an 18&#8243; .308 barrel. When people see my rifle, they often ask, How much does that affect the accuracy?
> 
> Their question, although a valid one, is usually asked in such a way that assumes accuracy must have been compromised in order for the barrel to be so short. *The exact opposite is true*.









http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelFAQ.html




> Are Shorter Barrels More Accurate? *As a general rule, the answer is yes.* A shorter barrel will be stiffer, pound for pound, since you can run a thicker contour (diameter) with the same weight. As you increase diameter, barrel rigidity rises to the 4th power of the increase. But if you lengthen a barrel, stiffness declines in proportion to the cube of the length. So a barrel that is just a few inches longer and a bit thinner can be half as rigid as a 20" max contour barrel



http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?91558-Precision-Rifle-Barrel-Length












Now go argue amongst yourselves or with all the above experts you disagree with. 


Barrel length affects velocity, a longer barrel is more effective at longer distances. 


It is not more accurate.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Ok, for the purposes in which you are describing , longer barrels are not more accurate. Thats the barrels themselves. However it would be more accurate for me to state my point this way , ....iron sights are more accurate as well as the shooter using them with a longer barrel. So what we are talking about is not the barrels being more or less accurate but rather the the sights are more effective with a longer barrel. But that results in the weapon itself being more accurate overall , therefore it is not incorrect to say that indirectly , longer barrels are more accurate. Do we have to get mythbusters involved in this one ?


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Sight radius and barrel length are not tied together, especially in the AR platform...in which you can get a 16" barrel & the 20" gas block, which gives you the exact same sight radius with two different barrels.


So which one is more accurate?  


Neither. 

They're the same, the 20" will simply stabilize heavier bullets & generate more FPS down range. 


"Dissipator" model. (20" gas tube on 16" barrel)


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

fallen513 said:


> Sight radius and barrel length are not tied together, especially in the AR platform...in which you can get a 16" barrel & the 20" gas block, which gives you the exact same sight radius with two different barrels.
> 
> 
> So which one is more accurate?
> ...



If you are getting more FPS or velocity down range then thats less the bullet will drop by the time it reaches the target and less the bullet will be affected by wind , depending on the distance. Wouldnt that mean a potential for better accuracy beyond a certain distance just because of the slight extra velocity ???


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

yonderfishin said:


> If you are getting more FPS or velocity down range then thats less the bullet will drop by the time it reaches the target and less the bullet will be affected by wind , depending on the distance. Wouldnt that mean a potential for better accuracy beyond a certain distance just because of the slight extra velocity ???


The technical answer is no, the practical answer is yes.


You could also increase your powder load & gain velocity that way.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

fallen513 said:


> The technical answer is no, the practical answer is yes.
> 
> 
> You could also increase your powder load & gain velocity that way.



Thats still means longer barrels can have an effect on accuracy given the situation. The technical answer dosent take all the variables into account but the practical answer does , including the human factor. If you can get more range , then you should be able to get better accuracy at distance. Technically , a bumble bee shouldnt be able to fly. But I still think the more distance between front and rear sight the more effective those sights will be atleast up to a point.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

But then again I am thinking generally , and more about plain old iron sights not necessarily about the type of sights found on many of these AR's which when adjusted right can be more accurate and account for more variables than the standard iron sights found on other rifles , so that may be whats causing the confusion.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Check it out, this is a proven fact.

You take a rifle, you put it in a bench & you shoot a group of 5 shots with a 20" barrel. 

You measure you're MOA, or minute of angle...or standard measure of "accuracy". 


You bench the same rifle, but with a 16" barrel & ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, you shoot the same scenario.





Your accuracy has not decreased. The 20" offers nothing in terms of "accuracy" over the 16", that's all there is to it. We're not talking about sights, scopes or hand grenades...just the barrel. 



Was your ability to hold the rifle more steady increased by the length of the barrel? 


Maybe. 


Did the extra weight cause fatigue faster than a shorter barrel? 


Maybe. 


Did the longer barrel make the rifle more accurate? 


Nope.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

You have to remove the variables from the equation to get an "accurate" answer.


Sights are simply a variable, as is a pair of shooting glasses, too many cups of coffee and Parkinson's disease. 

Any of those can affect accuracy, however, none of them define the accuracy of a barrel.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

And here I was thinking all along that it was the shooter lining up the shot taking the variables into consideration that actually put the bullet on the target , when I should have been thinking that the barrel itself was hitting the target 

I am just kidding. I think we are both right , just approaching the subject from a different angle. You are correct about the barrels , just that the barrel alone does not determine accuracy.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

When you see someone giving bad advice, you should do your best to help out the person who asked the question to begin with.


Telling a beginner that a 20" barrel is a must on an AR & that it improves accuracy is horse ****. 



That's all I'm saying.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

> I have been using hand loads and consistantly shoot sub 1.5" five shot groups with it at 100 yds (rested). Of course I would like to shrink the group size in half, but *you can only ask so much out of a 16" barrel*.



That really is the only thing I was addressing.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Sight radius negated by.... no sights. 

My .308:


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## bird-dogman (Apr 7, 2010)

Back to the original post.

Yes, you can build an accurate AR for about $1000. I'm not sure if my picture will post but this is my build.

Build components:
1 Kreiger 22" Match barrel 5.56 match chamber 7.7 twist.
2 Kreiger free float tube.
3 Young's NM bolt and carrier HEAVY.
4 Geissele 2 stage NM trigger
5 Plain Jane upper and lower, good quality but cheap.
- Sun Devil Billet upper
- Sun Devil Billet lower.
5 RR stock set

I have a 16x scope mounted with heavy rings.

Accuracy is a complex issue including many variables including ammunition and the shooter.

My best reloads are (so far):
- 77gr Target BT
- CCI 450
- 24 gr RE-15
- OAL 2.353"  They will not cycle through the action, to long.
Hornady Lock and Load used to set bullet seating depth

These will consistenly group 5 shots under .395 inches at 100 yd. If you do your job reading the wind and shooting.

I built the rifle about 1 1/2 years ago for about $1000. A few parts were at cost so I suspect a more realistic price is $1100-1200. Scope and rings not included.

I hope the picture shows up. The rifle was intentionally built to look PLAIN.

Jim


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## bird-dogman (Apr 7, 2010)

ALL:


Sorry, I should not have posted the reloading data.
Use at your own risk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONLY use data from REPUTABLE sources!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



jim


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## Orlando (Apr 12, 2004)

fallen513 said:


> When you see someone giving bad advice, you should do your best to help out the person who asked the question to begin with.
> 
> 
> Telling a beginner that a 20" barrel is a must on an AR & that it improves accuracy is horse ****.
> ...


You are twisting the facts, no one said a 20" barrel is a must.

No one gave any bad advice, we are all(everyone here on this forum not just you )are allowed to post our opinions

From now on I'll leave the advice giving to you as you have such a open mind a good way with words


Have a good day


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Orlando said:


> You are twisting the facts, no one said a 20" barrel is a must.
> 
> No one gave any bad advice, we are all(everyone here on this forum not just you )are allowed to post our opinions
> 
> ...




My original comment was referring to the "you can only get so much out of a 16" barrel" statement... you can get sub moa groups "easily" with a quality 16" barrel. 

Tight lines.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Buy your lower locally, don't pay more than $150, $90 is a good deal. 


Buy everything else here:

http://www.pkfirearms.com/


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## ODNR3723 (Apr 12, 2007)

Were u able to find/build one for under 1,000?


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## SPEAKSUP (Feb 19, 2009)

I just picked up a lower at Blackwing for $80 it's a Stag they were have a good deal. 

I want to match it up with a Titan Defense 10.5

http://www.titandefense.com/

It's a H&K 416 clone upper. I am awaiting paperwork. 

Next build after this is going to be a 7.62 build IDK why I just want one. Cause finding a AR47 is hard and the ones that do are expensive.


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

I am still looking around. I am kind of taking my tmie to make sure I get the set up I want. I want to go to a gun show but I was out of town this past weekend and missed the one in berea. I think there is another one coming up in august I might take a look at.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

$1K should go a long way, especially considering prices have went down in the past couple years.


A lot of people start out wanting to build one, then end up buying a complete rifle they see & think they like...only to regret it later.

Lay out what it is you want to accomplish with the rifle (punch steel @ 1000 meters? 'yotes? self defense?) and it will be easier to pick each component that will suit your individual needs. 

In addition to the PK firearms website I listed, I also order parts from Bravo Company:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/






Speaksup, those uppers look amazing! I take it you are waiting on SBR paperwork? 

I have a friend in Army special forces & they just all switched over to 10.5s....

I'd post some videos but his Facebook account won't allow non-friends to view... 

Here's a screen capture anyways:


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## pj4wd (Dec 9, 2009)

Socom, did ya get one yet? I just built the bottom ar for 650.00.


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

No not yet, I have been working alot lately and have had a few things come up. Don't really have the time or money at the moment. I appreciate all the replies and help though.


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