# Size Matters!



## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

How rare are 20&#8221; river smallmouth, for that matter how rare are the larger game fish you seek out? 

I&#8217;ve been courting a 20&#8221; Smallie for years now and have not yet seduced one of these gals. 

I have a theory and am wondering what anyone&#8217;s thoughts or facts might be?

I know growth rates for Smallmouth in our Northern hemisphere are so many inches per year. Anyone know what that statistic is feel free to post it? I know iguanas never stop growing, until the day they die. I do not know if this is the case for Smallmouth though?

Assuming I am right in this regard then at some point fish reach their maximum growth rate. The best way to explain this theory is to look at us humans as an example. I am 5&#8217;8&#8221;  with no hope of ever measuring any higher. I have reached my maximum growth rate in the degree of measurement. It is genetically impossible for me to grow any taller no matter my age and length of life. 

Relating this to stream Smallmouth I would expect that each fish is genetically predisposed to reaching a certain size in length. For the most part most fish are average in their size and growth rate and are caped at a moderate mark, say 15&#8221; - 18&#8221;. However, we are all seeking, &#8220;the big catch,&#8221; for me this is a 20&#8221; Smallmouth.

If this theory holds true it would seem to me that most Smallmouth, no matter how long they live, can only get so big. So actually catching a 20&#8221; Smallmouth may be rarer than one might think? 

This also gives great weight to the catch & release argument. If we actually have the pleasure of catching a huge fish like a 20&#8221; plus Smallmouth and do not release it. We have in effect, taken out of that ecosystem one of the rarest fish that holds some of the only genetic makeup that could have reproduced more big ones like itself. By harvesting a big fish like this we are undoubtedly and maybe unconsciously practicing population control and robbing future generations from the ability to catch a large bass. 

Well that&#8217;s my theory and I would love to hear input from others as to how true or untrue this may be? Please feel free to separate fact from fiction.


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## nitsud (May 22, 2010)

I think most animal growth models are logistic models, so the growth of animals tapers off as they get older. In the case of mammals, there is an adult size, but I believe that cold blooded animals in general continue increasing in size throughout their lifetimes, but that growth is very slow as they get older. I don't think there is a constant inches per year growth rate. Fish grow fast when they are young, slow when they are old.

I guess what that means is that fish fairly quickly get to a moderate size, but it takes a long time for them to get extraordinarily large, which is basically what you have said already . Big ones are rare because it takes a long time to get big, and it's a dangerous world.

Of course, another reason to catch and release the big guys is that they don't taste as good and are more likely to be filled with heavy metal. I prefer my heavy metal coming from speakers rather than my food.

Dustin


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## SConner (Mar 3, 2007)

I will try to answer this to the best of my ability by clarifying a few of the original questions and stating what I have read and believe to be true. If I veer off target, please feel free to correct me.

First let me start by clarifying that growth rate and maximum length/weight are not the same. When you said you had reached your maximum growth rate at 5'8", I think you meant you have reached your maximum height. Your maximum growth rate would have when you were a baby.

Most fish never stop growing throughout their entire lives ,so the factors that limit how big they get are: 1) growth rates and 2) life span. Growth rates are impacted by many environmental factors, with the largest impact coming from availability of forage. Life span again is impacted by many environmental factors with water quality and water temperatures (dissolved oxygen) weighing heavily on this equation.

To answer your question, yes I think smallmouth over 20" from our local rivers are fairly rare (I still have not caught one either), but not very rare in Lake Erie at all. Lake Erie provides more forage and the ability to go deep in the summer for colder water where dissolved oxygen levels are higher. Not many get to 20" in our river systems simply because they do not live long enough to get bigger in this environment. I agree that larger smallmouth should be safely released if the goal is to grow trophy fish. I personally do not keep any smallmouth, but scientifically speaking, selective harvest of smaller fish would also increase the number of trophy fish in a body of water because there would be more forage available to the remaining fish. Another option is to harvest all the "put and take" resources as they also compete with smallmouth for forage. This is not my approach because I like to catch a few saugeye in the winter when the smallmouth bite is tuff, but they do compete with smallmouth for available food supplies.

Best wishes on getting that 20 incher.


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## Mason52 (Aug 21, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts word for word, but the one word I didn't see was genetics. This has as much to do with fish as it does deer, people or any other creature. Fish never stop growing, but some are just going to get bigger then others, best reason to release that magnum sized fish and keep his genes in the system. I've caught 2 smallmouth over 20" one out of Greenville creek and one out of Andersons fork. In Greenville creek I used to catch lots of nice smallies in the 12 to 16-18 inch range so I wasn't that surprised at a 20 plus inch fish. The one out of Andersons was a shock because the place where I got it you could nearly spit across the creek and the hole was no more then 4-5 foot deep, max. Both fish were released, I've never kept a fish of any kind because it was big, never will.


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

SConner said:


> First let me start by clarifying that growth rate and maximum length/weight are not the same. When you said you had reached your maximum growth rate at 5'8", I think you meant you have reached your maximum height. Your maximum growth rate would have when you were a baby.
> 
> Best wishes on getting that 20 incher.


*That&#8217;s correct SConner*, I meant height. *Same to you on hooking the 20&#8217;er!!!* As for Growth rates on trophy fish my question is: Do the genetically superior fish grow faster during this period, maybe even as they age?

As for *&#8220;Growth rates are impacted by many environmental factors,&#8221; *this I understand. Thanks for bringing that up. But, where then do genetics fall into play being that the smaller fish, of the same age, are in the same environment?

Everyone, thanks for the feedback. 

I think understanding the make up of these trophy fish will help me get into there mindset and have better luck catching them. Because these trophy Smallies have been living in my head, rent free, for years.


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

Mason52 said:


> Fish never stop growing,


Thanks I wasn't sure on that point. This is good info, at least for those of us still searching for those 20'ers.

Post some pics of yours if you have any!!!


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## imfisherman (Sep 23, 2008)

on the search for that 20+"er river smallie myself I read this post with great interest 

and now am reminded by something my father once said

"If you want a big fish use a big bait"

DUH! thanks all for that knock in the head I probably needed!

PS My PB is 15"


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## SConner (Mar 3, 2007)

On genetics, yes it plays a role with any species and having the "right" characteristics for the environment you live is certainly an advantage. Certainly there will be fish with a predisposition to grow larger, but in our local river environment the right characteristics have more to do with their ability to intake more calories than they burn. So being a split second faster, learning to hold just out of the current in an oxygen rich environment and letting food come to you are the genetic characteristics likely to produce large fish. Regardless of what are the determining factors, I agree that putting larger fish back leads to more big fish. In the case of river smallies it is my belief that environment is more of a limiting factor than genetics... Either that or the smallies in lake Erie were blessed with all the big genes.

Regardless, I know I will not catch that 20"er sitting here, so I am heading out for an hour or so... If I get one you will all know!


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## LMRsmallmouth (Jan 10, 2006)

Mason52 said:


> The one out of Andersons was a shock because the place where I got it you could nearly spit across the creek and the hole was no more then 4-5 foot deep, max.


Shoot, 4-5 feet is deeper than 90% of the areas I fish in the river. I would call that a DEEP hole, but that's just me.

"If you want a big fish use a big bait" - I'm with ya on that point.


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## firstflight111 (May 22, 2008)

SMBHooker said:


> How rare are 20 river smallmouth, for that matter how rare are the larger game fish you seek out?
> 
> Ive been courting a 20 Smallie for years now and have not yet seduced one of these gals.
> 
> ...


well i have fished the river off and on over 30 years and have seen only 5 over 20 in


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

I believe this one is 20" but it came from Ky Lake. That place has some real pigs in it.










If you really are looking for some nice river smallies, try some of those West Virginia creeks and rivers. My best over there would probably top 5# but I didn't have a camera. My favorite bait is something recommended by LMRsmallmouth years ago. He may have mentioned it in a PM so I won't post it here but hands down it out fishes anything I've ever used on river smallies. I really don't believe in magic bait but this is close.


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## CO_Trout (May 10, 2008)

Genetics could be both good and bad, all depends on what you are looking for / what traits are best for the fish to survive and thrive in its environment.

Example A. fish has genetics that allow it to grow really fast at a young age. Thus getting to an adult size/maturity quicker. Once at an adult size, fish is less likely to be prey for the bigger fish of the river, thus allowing the fish to be able to live longer and get bigger.

Example B. fish genetics may allow a fish to be able to withstand warmer temps (say high of 90 degree water). This may allow the fish to be able to survive very hot summers. On the other hand it must likely would not survive very cold winters. 

The environmental factors determine which set of genes are best for the species to survive. Human harvest has an impact on these factors. The fish being caught in the rivers here in SW Ohio may have the potential to reach 20+. but droughts, flooding, pollution, harvest, and general stress may not allow the fish to reach these sizes regularly.

I recall an article (from back in college) that SMB only grow about ½ per year after they reach maturity / adulthood (adult SMB average size is 8-12 depending on geographic location). It takes about 5 yrs from hatching to reach adult size. 

So a 20 SMB would be about 15-20 yrs old. 
I pose 1 question for you:
Could you have lived the past 15-20 yrs drinking water out of these rivers in SW Ohio, and still be big, strong, or healthy???


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## CO_Trout (May 10, 2008)

Here is an article with some info about size & growth rate of SMB.

http://www.fishweb.com/recreation/fishing/fishfacts/fish/bass-sm/index.html


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## bassbuster065 (Apr 28, 2010)

i know several rivers in va that its hard not to catch a 20" smallie


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## longhaulpointer (Mar 12, 2009)

not a local river, but i've caught several over 20 at lake st clair, there everywhere there, pb was a nearly 6lb


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## SConner (Mar 3, 2007)

crappiedude said:


> I believe this one is 20" but it came from Ky Lake. That place has some real pigs in it.
> 
> If you really are looking for some nice river smallies, try some of those West Virginia creeks and rivers. My best over there would probably top 5# but I didn't have a camera. My favorite bait is something recommended by LMRsmallmouth years ago. He may have mentioned it in a PM so I won't post it here but hands down it out fishes anything I've ever used on river smallies. I really don't believe in magic bait but this is close.


That is a beast, I would say every bit of 20".


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

longhaulpointer said:


> not a local river, but i've caught several over 20 at lake st clair, there everywhere there, pb was a nearly 6lb


Lake St. Clair . . . as soon as I read those words my mind drifted off into a dream . I've never been but is above all others on my bucket list!!!!

SConner,

Alot of what you're saying makes alot of good sense!! Can't wait to hear you Sunday on the radio. Thanks for the insight. 

Knowing all this info will make me appriciate that 20"er that much more knowing what it takes for a Smallmouth to grow this size locally. 

I'll take a 20"er out of any body of water don't get me wrong but, there is just something to be said about pulling one out of your local river that's become your playground for so long


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## SConner (Mar 3, 2007)

SMBHooker said:


> I'll take a 20"er out of any body of water don't get me wrong but, there is just something to be said about pulling one out of your local river that's become your playground for so long


Agreed, that day will be sweet!


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## LMRsmallmouth (Jan 10, 2006)

crappiedude said:


> My favorite bait is something recommended by LMRsmallmouth years ago. He may have mentioned it in a PM so I won't post it here but hands down it out fishes anything I've ever used on river smallies. I really don't believe in magic bait but this is close.


oh...cmon now, everyone knows I can't catch any fish!!! Especially in these flooded rivers lately.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

SConner said:


> That is a beast, I would say every bit of 20".


Last cast, last night on a crappie jig. It was a blast.



LMRsmallmouth said:


> oh...cmon now, everyone knows I can't catch any fish!!! Especially in these flooded rivers lately.


I don't get out on the rivers and creeks as much as I'd like to but I bet my catch has trippled. I (silently) thank you everytime I'm out. I still use lots of my old methods, but when fishing gets tough or the pressure shuts the fish down. I now have a "go to" plan. I remember a pool in WV, I worked with everything and couldn't buy a hit with 3 or 4 different lures. I decided on last try with "the bait" and caught 3 smallies on the next 3 casts w/the biggest right at 3#. I'm a believer and I thank you for sharing.
Early Sept, I will have a week on the Greenbriar River with the family. It will be fun.


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## LMRsmallmouth (Jan 10, 2006)

I have been wanting to hit up the Greenbriar myself. Please drop me a line when you get back and let me know how you did. I have a few other secret weapons I use on them WVA/VA waters!


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## LMRsmallmouth (Jan 10, 2006)

bassbuster065 said:


> i know several rivers in va that its hard not to catch a 20" smallie


Ok now, you're chances increase 10 fold, but they still don't "accidentially" end up on your line....lol


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## iteech (Apr 4, 2005)

You can depend on scientific methods and relate your fishing to "norms", etc, but I truly believe it's mostly--not all, but mostly--the luck of the draw. I've been fishing for over 50 years now, and there's been a number of times I've been told certain things about a certain body of water, and found it to be untrue. I've researched fishing data for all the state lakes near me, and then when I went there, I saw that much of their 'data' was wrong. I've been told all my life that fish--and most cold-blooded wildlife--have no "cap" to their size...it is driven strictly by two things: the amount of food available to them, and the amount of space they have (they can go to warm places when it's cold, vice-versa, etc). Of course, genetics play into the mix, but I think that plays a smaller role than the other two. I am the grandaughter of a full-blooded Cherokee Indian...what are the chances I'd have white-blonde hair and very light blue eyes? But I do! Because I've always been a 'primitive' fisher--no boat, no expensive equipment--I've been told a hundred times "you won't catch --- here unless you have a boat", "you can't expect to catch anything big unless you have ----", and whatever else...but often, I've proved that 'wisdom' wrong. So here's the deal: everyone is a product of their own experiences, including FISH! I actually DO believe there's some really big smallies in these rivers...maybe they haven't been caught in large numbers, but they ARE there. Fish on.


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

iteech said:


> So here's the deal: everyone is a product of their own experiences, including FISH! I actually DO believe there's some really big smallies in these rivers...maybe they haven't been caught in large numbers, but they ARE there. Fish on.



Great post reply, full of angling wisdom. I am not looking for a scientific formula for catching bass or anything like that. We have much in common when it comes to our mindset and fishing style, shore fishing and what not. 

But, I do enjoy expanding my knowledge bass and discussing the art of angling with like minded fisherman.

*Oxygen Depletion *seems to play a rather important role on how fish grow as well as where they locate too, based on these levels that go up and down with seasonal changes?

Just when you feel comfortable, some new knowledge gets dropped on me, and I am back in school again, enrolled in bassology 101. Love learning!!

Anyone have some good info on this subject or a link to a good article*?*


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## luv2fish (May 18, 2006)

Used to fish the LMR for years in Greene county. Would always catch a good number of 14-16" smallies on artifical. One day I wasn't getting anything and while stopped in the shallows I noticed a lot of small crayfish in the water so I caught about half a dozen. I hooked one up with a small split shot and casted into the same hole and caught my first and to date only 20" smallie. Measured and released her, part of her tail had been worn off from spawning activities. I don't know what it takes for them to grow to that size but it is a wonderful experience to catch one, especially out of a river.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

LMRsmallmouth said:


> I have been wanting to hit up the Greenbriar myself. Please drop me a line when you get back and let me know how you did. I have a few other secret weapons I use on them WVA/VA waters!


If they are better than the last tip. It won't be safe to wade, them smallies will hunt you down....


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## ESOXSeeker (Jan 11, 2009)

I have caught a lot of nice Large Mouth bass from our local community Ponds. I have yet to catch my first Small Mouth! I cant wait! Here is what I read from an article last year from In-fisherman magazine. The article was about creating great pond envirounment for bass. What struck me was that all the fish I have been catching over the last two years were smaller in size?
In this article it mentioned that depth was the most criticle parameter for size of bass. It stated that if the pond was less than 8 ft or so it did not give the bass enough verticle movement to expand and contract it's bladder? I was thinking that because of my lakes were more shallow over time, the depth now was less than 5 or 6 ft, but when I statrted about 6 years ago were more like 8ft deep? The article memtioned that this kind of depth change could actully cause the bass to shrink in average size not length. I don't know if the SMB and the LMB have this in common, but since most of the streams you are fishing are less than 7 feet deep, this is likely one of the most limiting factors SMB size??? Sorry for the long post but wanted see if anyone would agree!
Tom,


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

ESOXSeeker said:


> The article memtioned that this kind of depth change could actully cause the bass to shrink in average size not length. I don't know if the SMB and the LMB have this in common, but since most of the streams you are fishing are less than 7 feet deep, this is likely one of the most limiting factors SMB size??? Sorry for the long post but wanted see if anyone would agree!Tom,


Just based off of SConner's reply about"(dissolved oxygen)" levels I would tend to agree. I think that environment of shallow water doesn't produce the right levels conducive to large growth. But, someone with more knowledge on this would need to explain it more thorough than that and check my facts.

Good post Tom !


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## LMRsmallmouth (Jan 10, 2006)

SMBHooker said:


> Just based off of SConner's reply about"(dissolved oxygen)" levels I would tend to agree. I think that environment of shallow water doesn't produce the right levels conducive to large growth.


You can't compare Esox's pond example to that of the river. The shallow moving water in the river has the highest oxygen content of any water you will find. That's why 90% of the fish are in the 10% of the river, the areas near riffles. I would say that oxygen levels are not preventing smallies from reaching mammoth size in our rivers. More likely culprits are amount of healthy forage base, constantly changing water levels and clarity, sediment, etc. We also have pretty crappy substrate for spawning, especially when water levels aren't stable like in recent yrs. Spend 5 mins in the water on the NEW or other rivers like it in WVA/VA and you can see right away why bigger fish grow there. Heck, predators can't possibly feed as well when they cant see 2 inches in front of their face. This year is a prime example of crappy growth conditions. They still eat, but not possibly as much.
Finally, I am still saying the fact is that there are 20" fish out there (I have caught them) they may not be "numerous" but time and patience along with being stealthy and in the right place at the right time can lead to results. 3 of the 6 I have caught over 20 were in 2006. You can catch multiple hogs in the same yr, not always a fluke. I have had quite a few days of multiple 18"+ days and Rblake had a day 2 weeks ago when he caught an 18 and a 19.
Big baits 4 big fish I say. If you throw rooster tails, grubs, and wee craws all day you will catch alot of fish, you just lowered your chances of that 20"er you are looking for.


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## KansasBoy (Jun 18, 2007)

I would think that water temp would have to have something to do with it also. Go down south, and both large and smallmouth are just bigger. It makes sense to me, because the fish go dormant in the winter, which is much longer up here than it is down south. Down in FL and GA the bass gorge themselves all year long, they are going to grow bigger and faster than they do up here.


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## ESOXSeeker (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes fish in the south would certainly benefit from longer feeding seasons. My pond example was mentioned not because of oxygen content, it has both bubblers and a large fountain for that, but the reduced depth over time! I was referring to up and down movement in an individual body of water that would sort of bulk up a bass. I would think bass in lake Erie, a nothern lake, would benefit from it's deepth more so than in a shallow stream or pond. Sort of body building its muscles, flesh, skeliton and air blader. 
My shallow pond has not produced 5 or 6 pound LMB in the last two year and it is a strict catch and release fishery. The lack of up and down exercise may have actully shrunk the bigger fish?
Tom,


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## KansasBoy (Jun 18, 2007)

How many bass are in your pond? Lower numbers might produce bigger fish. But I think you are right, the size and depth of the pond has to make at least some difference.


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## SConner (Mar 3, 2007)

SMBHooker said:


> Anyone have some good info on this subject or a link to a good article*?*


SMBHooker - I would highly recommend you purchase a book titled "The Ultimate Guide to Freshwater Fishing", written by Dick Sternberg. I received it as a gift a few years ago and have found it to be a great resource.


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## rayscott425 (Oct 11, 2008)

About 10 or 12 yrs ago, I was fishing from the bank at meldahl with a friend.We each caught a smallie between 4 to 5 lbs. We didn't weigh or measure,but if they weren't 20 in they had to be 19. The time of the year was prob late April or early May.


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## NO1HUNTER12 (Jul 19, 2010)

wow great info guys thanks


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## Fisherman 3234 (Sep 8, 2008)

You definitely can catch a 20 + incher with relative ease at either Lake St. Clair, around Detroit river or at quite a few places on Erie (There's some football's up here). These areas also have a ton of forage (shad, craws, leeches, shiners, and let us not forget a ton of GOBIES). However at the same time you really can't beat fishing out of a river or creek though for smallies in my opinion. I'm still looking for that 20" river/creek smallie as well!


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

LMRsmallmouth said:


> Big baits 4 big fish I say. If you throw rooster tails, grubs, and wee craws all day you will catch alot of fish, you just lowered your chances of that 20"er you are looking for.


What he said!
Listen and you will learn.


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

crappiedude said:


> What he said!
> Listen and you will learn.


"Big baits = Big Fish" . . . I'ld say naming this thread size matters was more than relevant  

I'm not sure how everyone else started out fishing for bass, but for me it was panther martens and roosters. I caught a lot of fish all but a few were dinks. Years ago I switched to larger baits, now when I go fishing I am catching much fewer bass but I can count on one hand how many 12" & under smallies I've caught since the switch.

I am in no mood for dinks, my eyes are only for my 20" gal . . .!!!


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## Mason52 (Aug 21, 2009)

Lowest DO at which fish survived for 24 hours (Summer)
Northern Pike - 6.0 mg/L

Black Bass - 5.5 mg/L

Common Sunfish - 4.2 mg/L

Yellow Perch - 4.2 mg/L

Black Bullhead - 3.3 mg/L


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## LMRsmallmouth (Jan 10, 2006)

SMBHooker said:


> I can count on one hand how many 12" & under smallies I've caught since the switch.
> 
> I am in no mood for dinks, my eyes are only more my 20" gal . . .!!!


I find that funny only because since I switched to larger presentations, I still catch as many dinks (almost). But my 18+ inch count has gone up DRAMATICALLY. Heck, it takes 2 hands to count the <12" fish I caught last trip out...hehe


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

LMRsmallmouth said:


> I find that funny only because since I switched to larger presentations, I still catch as many dinks (almost). But my 18+ inch count has gone up DRAMATICALLY. Heck, it takes 2 hands to count the <12" fish I caught last trip out...hehe


Maybe I'm using monster Muskie baits or something . . .


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

LMRsmallmouth said:


> I find that funny only because since I switched to larger presentations, I still catch as many dinks (almost). But my 18+ inch count has gone up DRAMATICALLY. Heck, it takes 2 hands to count the <12" fish I caught last trip out...hehe


I still catch plenty of small fish



SMBHooker said:


> Maybe I'm using monster Muskie baits or something . . .


In crawdad pattern?


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