# .223 or .243?



## Lazy 8

If you had your choice of either in a bolt action, which would you rather hunt deer with? .223 or .243?
I realize neither is legal in OH. This is just chatter.


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## PapawSmith

While plenty of deer have been taken with smaller calibers, the .243 is the smallest legal caliber in several deer hunting states, and widely considered the smallest practical deer caliber. It is more than sufficient in my opinion and a damn good round. If I had to pick between the two I would certainly take a .243.


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## bobk

.243


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## Harry1959

I think of a 223 as a varmit rifle. I almost bought a .243 last year for coyotes and possibly deer, although it’s on the small side, I liked the idea of little or no recoil. I ended up with a 6.5 creedmore. IMO the 6.5 is a deer round that I can coyote hunt with, where a .243 is more a coyote round that I could deer hunt with. The 6.5 has some recoil, but no bad


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## Shortdrift

Witnessed several deer taken with the 243 and always wanted one but never found the Remington I was looking for.


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## Yakphisher

I be going the 6.5 Grendel route next. Been doing a lot cross reviewing as this round will compete well with any other calibers easily up to 500 yards without the recoil and noise levels. Easier to reload for less costs and you can get cheap steel cased ammo.


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## 0utwest

.243 in 80-100 grain bullets is good and you just cant get that out of .22 caliber bullet weight . The old Remington core-loks in 100 grain or barnes vortex in 80 grain have both worked well for the kids on deer in p.a. for us .


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## fastwater

243 all the way.


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## Doboy

Exactly what OUTWEST said.
It would take me all day to tell & show you pics of all the deer that were taken in Pa with our .243s
We're Hunting from hill to hill & across the Pa strip piles. Many of those deer were taken out to 300yds.
*As long as your in the boiler room,,, & Not shooting tails. 
(ain't that right '300 mag' John? lol ;>)*


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## Lazy 8

Harry1959 said:


> I think of a 223 as a varmit rifle. I almost bought a .243 last year for coyotes and possibly deer, although it’s on the small side, I liked the idea of little or no recoil. I ended up with a 6.5 creedmore. IMO the 6.5 is a deer round that I can coyote hunt with, where a .243 is more a coyote round that I could deer hunt with. The 6.5 has some recoil, but no bad


Harry, I wish I had a nickle for everytime I've heard the .223 called a varment rd or gun.
What I can't get over is why does our military use a varment rd?
Also, how far would each shoot flat given almost exact conditions? Before compensation from sights or a scope?


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## PapawSmith

Lazy 8 said:


> What I can't get over is why does our military use a varment rd?


The flatter shooting, longer range, smaller calibers allow for engagement of the enemy at greater ranges than the larger calibers used by the same enemy. That, and a wounded enemy soldier is most often taken out of the skirmish and each wounded soldier places a resource burden on the enemy. I believe it takes about 7 support personnel, overall, to provide all the logistical support required for just one wounded soldier. It is a well thought strategy, in a brutal game.


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## BuckeyeFishin07

I wouldn't use a .223 for anything larger than coyote, I don't think a .223 has enough knock down power for a big game animal. Unless you can place a perfect shot every time. Just my opinion though, .243 is pushing it for me also though.


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## RMK

between the 2 options.... 243 gets my vote. i got the opportunity to shoot a couple deer with my 223 AR15. i killed and recovered every deer i shot with it. but entry and exit holes where tiny and blood trails non existent. too much chance of losing a deer with it in my opinion to consider it a good deer round.


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## Harry1959

Lazy 8 said:


> Harry, I wish I had a nickle for everytime I've heard the .223 called a varment rd or gun.
> What I can't get over is why does our military use a varment rd?
> Also, how far would each shoot flat given almost exact conditions? Before compensation from sights or a scope?


I hadn’t thought of the points P Smith makes, sounds legit. As opposed to soldiers, the last thing we want to do is wound a deer. I wouldn’t contest that the 223 will kill a deer as dead as a 45/70. The 223 or even 243 in most cases don’t kill as quickly and in almost all cases doesn’t leave the blood trail that a larger caliber dies. Soldiers with 223’s aren’t concerned with recovery of critically wounded targets. 
I’m sure a .243 or even the .223 will kill quickly with good bullet placement. Bigger rounds give us much more margins of error. Just my opinion


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## fastwater

Excellent reply PapawSmith.
A good example of what you're talking about is when we went to the much smaller 30cal carbine in WWII. Though not nearly packing the punch or stopping power of the 30.06 but more punch and range than the .45 auto's, the much lighter 30cal carbine coupled with much lighter(weight wise) ammo enabled us to carry more ammo and the carbine being much easier to handle. 
So the facts that PPS stated about wounded soldiers taking out not only the wounded, but taking out many other soldiers tending to the wounded, coupled with lighter weapons and ammo is the reason our military often goes to what some might consider 'varmint' rds.


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## Morrowtucky Mike

PapawSmith said:


> The flatter shooting, longer range, smaller calibers allow for engagement of the enemy at greater ranges than the larger calibers used by the same enemy. That, and a wounded enemy soldier is most often taken out of the skirmish and each wounded soldier places a resource burden on the enemy. I believe it takes about 7 support personnel, overall, to provide all the logistical support required for just one wounded soldier. It is a well thought strategy, in a brutal game.


Also, I would much rather shoot a .223 in full auto or 3 round burst than a .30 cal any day


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## Lazy 8

Out of curiosity, how far will each shoot flat before compensation comes into play?


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## Doboy

Lazy 8 said:


> Out of curiosity, how far will *each shoot flat* before compensation comes into play?


To somewhat answer your question, 
It's the size of the kill zone, that comes into play,,,, & how far out your cartridge can stay in that zone, without hold-over compensation.
Then the Calibers/ loads ballistic coefficiencies come into the equation. YadaYadaYa,,,,,, 

I say,, BUY both of them! 
take them to the range & shoot 5-6 boxes of different loads, from both,,,, & see what they can do!

*& NOW IS THE TIME TO BUY BOTH;*
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsupers...e=080619&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=080619


Bummer,,,, I have some pictures, SOMEWHERE,,,,, & just can't find them now.
We hung some 3/4" thick RailRoad track/ tie plates off of tree branches, and used them for 100yd 'Ringing' targets. We hit 'em with the new LEGEND, the BUSHMASTER, 20 & .410 slugs,,,, then we pulled out the .243 & .223.
lol,,, I'd just love to show the .223 & .234 NON-BELIEVERS all of the perfectly 'DRILLED' holes in those steel plates!! Perfect OD, clear through,,, Like cut with a laser. (hi fps Varmint FMJs ;>)

My, First year hunting, college grad daughter stuck her pinky into the holes and said, "Why in the world, would someone want to HUNT with something so powerful!!?
I just smiled, & let her believe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Anyway
If you smack a deer in the boiler room with a soft point or hollow point, say at under 200 yds,
There will not be any lungs left. 
(lol,,, & with all of that energy quickly absorbed, whats left of the bullet just might be under the hide on the opposite side!
Been-there-done-that.)

ALL of this discussion,,,, & many of my friends can quickly drop deer at 75yds, WITH A DUMB 'OL ARROW!? ;>)


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## 0utwest

You can give all most all the bullet companies a call and they will explain the velocities and bullet drop for each caliber for you and don't be surprised when they all tell you .243 has way more energy and that's the way to go . I just called Barnes Bullets a week ago asking them about .270 and 30.06 , I have both and my Girlfriend Drew a Elk Tag for Utah and was asking them about both calibers and after a 15 minute discussion I had my answer for what she needs to make a clean and ethical harvest at realistic yardages . Make the Call !


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## Junebug2320

0utwest said:


> You can give all most all the bullet companies a call and they will explain the velocities and bullet drop for each caliber for you and don't be surprised when they all tell you .243 has way more energy and that's the way to go . I just called Barnes Bullets a week ago asking them about .270 and 30.06 , I have both and my Girlfriend Drew a Elk Tag for Utah and was asking them about both calibers and after a 15 minute discussion I had my answer for what she needs to make a clean and ethical harvest at realistic yardages . Make the Call !


Made a call to a rancher in Montana for a future elk trip. I have both guns available to use. What was the verdict?? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 0utwest

Either caliber was good choice and it comes down to which ever one she is more comfortable with and accurate . But were also going to try and get no more than 300 to 350 yard shot , The 30.06 had a slight advantage because they have 165 and 180 grain bullet that works real well for the extra energy verses the 130 grain for the .270 . And if she would happen to hit the shoulder the heavier bullet helps so if she continues to shoot just as accurate with each one were taking the .06 .


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## Muddy

There is no replacement for displacement. I prefer larger holes to smaller holes when all other variables are fairly equal.


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## PapawSmith

Junebug2320 said:


> Made a call to a rancher in Montana for a future elk trip. I have both guns available to use. What was the verdict??
> 
> A bit off topic here, but if you are going with an outfitter you may want to talk to them about rifle calibers, most have minimum requirements and few will allow a .270. Most require a 7mm mag as a minimum but really like to see hunters carry a .30 caliber round or larger. 30-06 is an outstanding round that has its range limits and if you are choosing to stay within 250 yds or so, it is a perfect round IMO. If you want to reach out further I personally would recommend a 7mm mag, .300 win mag, .300 H&H (if you want to avoid mag loads), or any similar magnum calibers up to a .338 win mag if you like to get your ass kicked while you shoot. I have a few .300 H&H rifles that are a sweet shooting, long reach, hard hitters with relatively low recoil that my daughters shoot and I prefer my .338-06. If you are fortunate to go on a good hunt like this be certain you have the proper rifle that will increase your chances at a successful hunt.


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## Harry1959

Muddy said:


> There is no replacement for displacement. I prefer larger holes to smaller holes when all other variables are fairly equal.


 Totally agree Muddy, these light super fast Bullets have so much kinetic energy..... that travels through the deer and is absorbed by trees and dirt. Shoot one with a slow moving, lower energy 12 gauge foster slug and the deer absorbs More energy and you get an exit hole you can put your fist through. Ya know, I never wounded a deer with the 12 gauge smooth bore, I have wounded several since switching to sabots.


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## fastwater

Lazy 8 said:


> Out of curiosity, how far will each shoot flat before compensation comes into play?


That's a hard one to call as it depends on the many various load offerings in both calibers.
Here's a good read and you can compare ballistics on various loads for both here as well:
https://www.foundryoutdoors.com/blo...chester-ammo-comparison-ballistics-info-chart


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## fastwater

0utwest said:


> Either caliber was good choice and *it comes down to which ever one she is more comfortable with and accurate *. But were also going to try and get no more than 300 to 350 yard shot , The 30.06 had a slight advantage because they have 165 and 180 grain bullet that works real well for the extra energy verses the 130 grain for the .270 . *And if she would happen to hit the shoulder the heavier bullet helps so if she continues to shoot just as accurate with each one were taking the .06 *.


Yep...you have to be able to put the shot in the kill zone regardless of caliber used. 
In other words, using the stated choices between the .270 and .06, if a person is recoil sensitive and just shoots mediocre and not consistant with the .06 but is dead on consistently with the .270, then my pick is the .270. 
If the person is shooting the same consistently with both then the choice would be the .06 all day long.


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## Muddy

I’ve killed elk, mule deer, and antelope out to 400 yards with my 308. They have all been killed with one shot through the boiler room, and none of them went very far. The most important factors to success are that you can shoot well, know your Dope chart, and have a range finder.


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## Muddy

I love my .223’s, but I would never take any of them deer hunting. My Savage .223 is probably my favorite gun that I own. .243 is a better deer round than the .223. But when it comes to deer, why not just get a 30 caliber gun and call it a day.


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## bustedrod

243 100 gr soft tip nailed alot of deer with it, and then down size to 62 gr for ground hogs, yotes , anything.. put a 11 deg crown on it


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## fireline

.243 it's one of my favorite calibers,


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## Popspastime

.243 would be my choice of the two, but I'd look at something else that might do a better down range job. Both the .270 and the 30.06 have killed everything in North America and the argument will go on for ever. I myself prefer the .270 because I've only met 1 rifle in 30.06 that didn't want to take my face off. I'm an O'Connor fan.


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## Jtom

I think the question is why would you consider a .223 for deer when a little intelligent research will lead you down a better path. Bullets have come a long ways and there are now 70+ grain ones available that may be suitable, but 60 grain and under really asking for performance issues.

The .270 is plenty of medicine for elk, with the right bullet, shot placement and reasonable yardage. All the BS about needing a large .30 caliber round is just that....BS. All clean killing is predicated on shot placement, penetration and bullet performance.


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## PapawSmith

Jtom said:


> The .270 is plenty of medicine for elk, with the right bullet, shot placement and reasonable yardage. All the BS about needing a large .30 caliber round is just that....BS. All clean killing is predicated on shot placement, penetration and bullet performance.


LOL, it’s not “BS” at all, it’s just not everyone is the skilled sniper that you apparently are, seriously...BS? No one said that the .270 is too small, or that a .30 is required, it was said that most Elk outfitters prefer and/or require the larger rounds, and they do. Their experience tells them that folks that venture to the mountains to hunt Elk from areas outside the regions are generally not the most proficient shooters because they generally only have their firearms out for a short period each year and lighter calibers like the .270 leave too many wounded animals, and they’re right. I simply cautioned the poster to check with their outfitter to see if this is their policy because it is a common one and to prepare himself with an optimum caliber to maximize their experience. I’ve lived in the mountain states, hunted Elk several times, hunted with and assisted local guides, and came to learn that there are several rounds more practical than a .270 for the big bodies of an Elk. No BS at all, just good sense.


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## Popspastime

My preferred rifle is my 7mmSTW over all of them, 30 cal included. A 140 grain partitioned bullet at 3500 fps will flat knock a Bull on his keister. Down range outshines all 30's with the exception of the 30/378 which is no slouch..


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## Jtom

The fallacy that folks fall into is thinking that bigger is better (which it is), without taking into consideration bullet placement. I'm no sniper, but I know that I have ~9" target that I need to hit on deer/antelope and ~18" on an elk (broadside). That's what I practice for, milk jugs from 200-400 yds. and never off a bench - shooting off sticks or bi-pod. Several yrs ago my son and his buddy (15 yr olds) were hunting the high plains of Wyoming just north of Colorado. My boy with a .270 the other carrying his grandpa's 300 RUM.I was along with the boys grandfather as free labor if anything was taken (both kids had elk and deer tags). Well, we spot a herd of elk with several bulls, the boys being young and in good shape soon leave the old guys far behind as they are shortening the distance (big rolling plains at the base of the mountains). Thirty minutes later granddad and I are prone on top of a hill looking at the elk bedded well below and wondering where the hell the boys are when one of the bulls stands and boom - a shot rings out and thump - the hit was obvious. At the shot the herd stood packed close together looking around unsure of where the danger was. About 20 seconds and the herd slowly started walking downhill, at this time the bull that had been shot became obvious from the red splotch on his flank and the blowing steam coming out of his guts where he had taken the first round. The boy with the RUM commenced lobbing rounds and pounded the elk 3 more times - all paunch shots, and ran his magazine dry. The bull was standing still now, another shot rang out and the bull collapsed. After action report - the boys got excited - didn't use the range finder thinking the elk were at 300 yds (they were at 500) and the young man made poor shots, the last was a high shoulder shot from the .270 (300 was empty). Later that day we relocated the herd in timber and got in to 290 yds., 1 shot from .270 in the crease (140 grain soft point) and the bull went 10 yds and toppled. The next yr., same location, the other boy (carrying his 6MM) shot a bull in the same timbered slope and it fell ~30yds from impact. 

I don't advocate 100 grain bullets for elk, however, put the bullet in the vitals and death comes quickly.


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## Jtom

I'm not against using big .30's but I am against hunters assuming that if they are shooting a potent round they don't need to focus on what's most important - understanding the geometry of shot placement from differing presentations of angle on the intended victim and spending the time perfecting trigger pull and shooting accurately (not from a bench - fine for sighting in). Most of us have spent enough first day mornings on public ground in Ohio & PA. to know its damn scary the amount of lead being sent down range hoping just to hit brown......with more deer than necessary being maimed or wounded. It's not necessary.

Apologies if I came off a little strong in the first post.

What set me off was the question of using a .223 for deer. When I was a wee lad (ok teen years) I lived in South East Florida. At that time if you got 5 miles off the coast you were in ranch country - really big cattle ranches running west to the everglades. I hunted the ranches quite a bit,quail, deer and hogs. The crackers (Indegenous Red Necks) many good friends - hunted the swamps (hammocks) with swamp buggies and the new AR 15 (mid 70's) shooting 55 grain FMJ. Well, they put a lot of bullets down range - killed a lot of critters and wounded more. My choice at that time was a .303 British Enfield purchased for $25.00 at a Ft. Lauderdale flea market shooting 180 grain round nose bullets. Quite an effective round compared to the .556.


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## bobk

I've used a .223 several times on deer. Fun to hunt with an AR for a change.


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## Popspastime

Were not here to argue which one is better, their all good. The important thing is how much steam does it carry down range at distance. If your planning on shooting deer with a 223 at 200 - 250 yds I'd say its a bad choice and unethical. A .270 carries fine out to 300 but rapidly looses foot lbs after 200, the bullet choice is very important. I have owned a bunch of .270's and still have one in an old Southgate Weatherby pre 64 gun and it's awesome, muzzels a 140 grain just at 3400 fps. You need to fit the rifle with the quarry and distances your shooting. Inside 150 yds a 223, 243, will do just fine with a well placed shot and a thin skinned animal.


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## Gradyfish

If you’re going to use a .223, make it interesting. This SSK TC has taken many woodchucks up to 400 yards and two deer between 150-200 yards, both head shots. I agree, shot placement is key.


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## Mike Fraser

I have all of the following calibers .243 .223 22.250 and 6.5 creedmor. As a kid growing up in PA I slaughtered many a deer with my .243. Now a day they make so many different loads for the .243 it’s awesome. I shoot 200 yards out back with all of them. I do like the .223 for the cheap ammo and with my barrel twist the lower grain the better. Depending on what your using them for you can’t go wrong with either.


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## buckeyebowman

Harry1959 said:


> Totally agree Muddy, these light super fast Bullets have so much kinetic energy..... that travels through the deer and is absorbed by trees and dirt. Shoot one with a slow moving, lower energy 12 gauge foster slug and the deer absorbs More energy and you get an exit hole you can put your fist through. Ya know, I never wounded a deer with the 12 gauge smooth bore, I have wounded several since switching to sabots.


I don't want exit holes I can put my fist through. That's wasted meat. My buddy went hunting in West Virginia years ago with a .338 Win mag! Too much gun? Oh, yeah! The entire offside shoulder was gone, as well as a little bit of the bottom of the neck! Thing looked like it had been hit by a hand grenade! 

Some of these discussions remind me of archers asking what's the best broadhead to use. All of them will kill deer if they are sharp, of sound design, and fly right. The important thing is shot placement. 

To my mind, the .22-250, .222 Swift, and .223 are varmint calibers. Why does the military use it? I don't know. Geneva Convention? Commonality with the 5.56mm NATO round? 

I bought a Remington ADL (synth stock) in .243 about 25 years ago, thankfully before their quality went to crap. The thing is a tack driver! When I went to sight it in last year before PA deer gun season, I hung a target at 100 yards, fired a single shot, and sat back to smoke a cig and let the barrel cool. Meanwhile, at the other end of the range was a group of guys just whanging away, heating up their barrels. I don't know anyone who hunts with a hot barrel! 

When I finished my cig, I looked through the spotting scope and saw the hole in the "Orange Peel" target about 3" low and 3" left. I fired a second shot not adjusting the scope, and again, sat back to have a cig and some coffee. I always have a thermos with me! When I looked through the spotting scope again, I couldn't find a second hole in the target! Huh? Then I noticed that my first hole was looking a little oblong! Shortly after someone called for a cease fire, and I walked out there for a close up look. Sure enough, I had basically shot through the same hole! 

So, I adjusted the scope 12 clicks up and 12 clicks right, and fired another round. I sat back and relaxed while the guys at the other end of the range kept whanging away! Jeez! They burned up a bunch of ammo! When I looked through the spotting scope again, I saw a dead center bull! So I started packing up my stuff waiting for the next cease fire, when I could pull my target. 

The guys at the other end of the range noticed how few shots I had taken and asked me about it. I showed them the target, saying that I liked nothing more than a 3 shot sighting in session!


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## privateer

buckeyebowman said:


> I don't want exit holes I can put my fist through. That's wasted meat. My buddy went hunting in West Virginia years ago with a .338 Win mag! Too much gun? Oh, yeah! The entire offside shoulder was gone, as well as a little bit of the bottom of the neck! Thing looked like it had been hit by a hand grenade!


I have seen the same thing with a 150grain .270 at 200yards when hits solid bone. completely shreds the meat on both sides. blows up the bone on exit of first side and bone then grenades the other side too. found the nicely mushroomed slug just under the hide on exit side of deer. oh, was a massive PA deer. after field dress it was still above 225-lbs. corn fed farm deer... i have also seen others with exit hole same size as entrance when hit nothing but soft tissue at close range. still dropped the deer immediately as took out both lungs and heart. so it is more what the bullet hits than the bullet itself...


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## Eyecrosser

I bought a 243 way back in 1975. Have used it every year except the last few when I didn't hunt deer. I only had one deer that I lost and it wasn't for the gun but the scope that I had mounted. The cross hair broke and I didn't know it. Had a missed place shot and deer ran off wounded. Out of the 48 deer I've shot, only 4 needed a second shot. 100 gr. Round will kill any deer with the proper shot placement. 

I bought my 243 after reading stories of the 243 being used for prong horn out west. And the articles were touting the 243 as a good caliber. As for range of the round I've made a few really long range shots over 250 yards, and dropped the deer in it's tracks. The 243 has light recoil and with different bullet weights you can hunt varments to big game. Plus ammo is readily avaiable just about everywhere.


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## Lazy 8

I want to personally thank everyone for their insight. I wasn't trying to, "start somethong" and I know neither the .223 or the .243 are the preferred rds for deer. I knew that. I just wondered if those were the only rifles you had, which would you use? I don't plan on taking one with either. Prolly should of said that up front. 
Once again, my thanks to all.


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## PapawSmith

Lazy 8 said:


> I want to personally thank everyone for their insight. I wasn't trying to, "start somethong" and I know neither the .223 or the .243 are the preferred rds for deer. I knew that. I just wondered if those were the only rifles you had, which would you use? I don't plan on taking one with either. Prolly should of said that up front.
> Once again, my thanks to all.


I think you started a very constructive discussion of appropriate calibers for different sized game and conditions. I believe it was probably helpful and informative to some, and a good read to all. It is the perfect type of discussion that gives value to this type of social format, thanks for starting it.


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## fastwater

PapawSmith said:


> I think you started a very constructive discussion of appropriate calibers for different sized game and conditions. I believe it was probably helpful and informative to some, and a good read to all. It is the perfect type of discussion that gives value to this type of social format, thanks for starting it.


I think he just started it cause he's an ornery ole cus that knows I have both an old Rem 243 and matching 270 and I'm aggravated that Ohio won't allow deer hunting with either.


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## 0utwest

Well now the Girlfriend tells me she wants to try my 7mm rem mag and 300 weatherby Also ! I looked up the felt recoil for all 4 guns .270 , 06 , 7mm rem , 300 weatherby with a brake that cuts recoil by 50 percent . Well she shoots a 20 gauge turkey gun in youth model with 3 inch mag turkey loads and that shows more recoil than all the rifles . She reminds me its not the kick that bothers her its the noise , So the 300 I may or may not let her try and it is LOUD ! So now all 3 guns .270 ,06, 7mm weigh about the same with scopes , So now will just have to see which stock and gun is the right fit for her that she shoots the most accurate . My only concern is going to be that I don't want that scope coming back on her eye and yes she needs glasses to shoot , Ive seen it happen before just not to me . And trust me she takes forever to shoot at anything So this Hunt should really test my patience ! Also I think all start a Thread in the out of state section , Curious to see how many are making out of state hunts this year and would love to hear where there going and stories after they return .


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## Lazy 8

0utwest said:


> Well now the Girlfriend tells me she wants to try my 7mm rem mag and 300 weatherby Also ! I looked up the felt recoil for all 4 guns .270 , 06 , 7mm rem , 300 weatherby with a brake that cuts recoil by 50 percent . Well she shoots a 20 gauge turkey gun in youth model with 3 inch mag turkey loads and that shows more recoil than all the rifles . She reminds me its not the kick that bothers her its the noise , So the 300 I may or may not let her try and it is LOUD ! So now all 3 guns .270 ,06, 7mm weigh about the same with scopes , So now will just have to see which stock and gun is the right fit for her that she shoots the most accurate . My only concern is going to be that I don't want that scope coming back on her eye and yes she needs glasses to shoot , Ive seen it happen before just not to me . And trust me she takes forever to shoot at anything So this Hunt should really test my patience ! Also I think all start a Thread in the out of state section , Curious to see how many are making out of state hunts this year and would love to hear where there going and stories after they return .


Thanks brother. She have a gutsy woman. Can she skin one out? 
You can either start another thread or keep it here. Derailing never bothered me.


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## Lazy 8

PapawSmith said:


> I think you started a very constructive discussion of appropriate calibers for different sized game and conditions. I believe it was probably helpful and informative to some, and a good read to all. It is the perfect type of discussion that gives value to this type of social format, thanks for starting it.


Thank you Papaw. I appreciate that brother.


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## Lazy 8

fastwater said:


> I think he just started it cause he's an ornery ole cus that knows I have both an old Rem 243 and matching 270 and I'm aggravated that Ohio won't allow deer hunting with either.


Takes one to know one you ol Coot.


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## PapawSmith

0utwest said:


> Well now the Girlfriend tells me she wants to try my 7mm rem mag and 300 weatherby Also ! I looked up the felt recoil for all 4 guns .270 , 06 , 7mm rem , 300 weatherby with a brake that cuts recoil by 50 percent . Well she shoots a 20 gauge turkey gun in youth model with 3 inch mag turkey loads and that shows more recoil than all the rifles . She reminds me its not the kick that bothers her its the noise , So the 300 I may or may not let her try and it is LOUD ! So now all 3 guns .270 ,06, 7mm weigh about the same with scopes , So now will just have to see which stock and gun is the right fit for her that she shoots the most accurate . My only concern is going to be that I don't want that scope coming back on her eye and yes she needs glasses to shoot , Ive seen it happen before just not to me . And trust me she takes forever to shoot at anything So this Hunt should really test my patience ! Also I think all start a Thread in the out of state section , Curious to see how many are making out of state hunts this year and would love to hear where there going and stories after they return .


A 300 Weatherby will rattle anyone's teeth and a brake on a rifle will remove the eardrums from you while you stand beside her and watch her teeth getting rattled. Try to find her an old Model 70 in 300 H&H, it is an outstanding round that is good for all American medium/large game, and low on the recoil spectrum relative to rounds this size. I have a few of these I rounded up for three of my hunting daughters for Elk hunting. They are not everywhere but they are also not too hard to find reasonably priced and it is about the best .30 with really good ballistics that I have found that is really suits well for a smaller female frame to shoot. For Deer, the girls shoot 30-06 (maybe the best all around ever IMO, even with its limits) and recently I have put together a few 6.5 Creedmoor's and a 6.5x284 Norma Mag that are comfortable and effective shooters for them. Good luck, I love that my daughters, and one granddaughter, hunts with me.


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## fastwater

0utwest said:


> Well now the Girlfriend tells me she wants to try my 7mm rem mag and 300 weatherby Also ! I looked up the felt recoil for all 4 guns .270 , 06 , 7mm rem , 300 weatherby with a brake that cuts recoil by 50 percent . Well she shoots a 20 gauge turkey gun in youth model with 3 inch mag turkey loads and that shows more recoil than all the rifles . She reminds me its not the kick that bothers her its the noise , So the 300 I may or may not let her try and it is LOUD ! So now all 3 guns .270 ,06, 7mm weigh about the same with scopes , So now will just have to see which stock and gun is the right fit for her that she shoots the most accurate . My only concern is going to be that I don't want that scope coming back on her eye and yes she needs glasses to shoot , Ive seen it happen before just not to me . And trust me she takes forever to shoot at anything So this Hunt should really test my patience ! Also I think all start a Thread in the out of state section , Curious to see how many are making out of state hunts this year and would love to hear where there going and stories after they return .


If noise is the issue for her, may want to check this out:
https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/best-hunting-ear-protection/


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## privateer

Lazy 8 said:


> I want to personally thank everyone for their insight. I wasn't trying to, "start somethong" and I know neither the .223 or the .243 are the preferred rds for deer. I knew that. I just wondered if those were the only rifles you had, which would you use? I don't plan on taking one with either. Prolly should of said that up front.
> Once again, my thanks to all.


with modern bullets, both are capable. however, if I am selecting one, i would choose the .243 as I have personally witnessed it effectively take PA deer and bear.


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## Harry1959

privateer said:


> I have seen the same thing with a 150grain .270 at 200yards when hits solid bone. completely shreds the meat on both sides. blows up the bone on exit of first side and bone then grenades the other side too. found the nicely mushroomed slug just under the hide on exit side of deer. oh, was a massive PA deer. after field dress it was still above 225-lbs. corn fed farm deer... i have also seen others with exit hole same size as entrance when hit nothing but soft tissue at close range. still dropped the deer immediately as took out both lungs and heart. so it is more what the bullet hits than the bullet itself...


 Agree 100 %. If you blast the front shoulders with a .243 you loose more meat than a low double lung shot with a 45/70. I really like shoulder roasts and prefer to not take the shoulders out. That’s why I like larger exit wounds for blood trails.


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## 0utwest

Lazy 8 said:


> Thanks brother. She have a gutsy woman. Can she skin one out?
> You can either start another thread or keep it here. Derailing never bothered me.


Well Im sure she can skin one out and she was with me in Utah when I shot a mule deer with a muzzle loader and helping me cut it up right where it dropped and she whittled away at the neck and rib meat and whole carcass like no tomorrow ! With that being said she knows how good elk taste so if she gets one there will be nothing left for the scavengers but gut pile and a skeleton !


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## 0utwest

fastwater said:


> If noise is the issue for her, may want to check this out:
> https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/best-hunting-ear-protection/


As for the last couple years she has been using foam ear plugs and then the electronic muffs over them and it seems to work okay but all check anything out that's going to help . Thank you fastwater .


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## 0utwest

PapawSmith said:


> A 300 Weatherby will rattle anyone's teeth and a brake on a rifle will remove the eardrums from you while stand beside her and watch her teeth getting rattled. Try to find her an old Model 70 in 300 H&H, it is an outstanding round that is good for all American medium/large game, and low on the recoil spectrum retaliative to rounds this size. I have a few of these I rounded up for three of my hunting daughters for Elk hunting. They are not everywhere but they are also not too hard to find reasonably priced and it is about the best .30 with really good ballistics that I have found that is really suits well for a smaller female frame to shoot. For Deer, the girls shoot 30-06 (maybe the best all around ever IMO, even with its limits) and recently I have put together a few 6.5 Creedmoor's and a 6.5x284 Norma Mag that are comfortable and effective shooters for them. Good luck, I love that my daughters, and one granddaughter, hunts with me.


Thanks for the insight on the 300 H&H but for now were trying to settle in on what we have that fits the bill the best . After the season maybe will talk about calibers for women and younger shooters . Thanks you papawsmith .


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## buckeyebowman

PapawSmith said:


> I think you started a very constructive discussion of appropriate calibers for different sized game and conditions. I believe it was probably helpful and informative to some, and a good read to all. It is the perfect type of discussion that gives value to this type of social format, thanks for starting it.


I agree! Lots of good info and opinion was rendered here. As you can see, a lot of guys love their .243's. It's the only rifle I own other than an old .22. I live in Ohio, we can't hunt with true rifles, and at the time I bought it I didn't hunt PA yet. I just wanted a rifle! 

I will also say this about my .243. Although it was made by Remington, it does not like their ammo! When I bought it I figured, "Remington rifle, Remington ammo". Nope! I couldn't get the thing to group worth a damn! This had me worried, thinking I bought a crap rifle! After thinking about it a while, I realized that the caliber is called .243 Win for a reason! Winchester developed the caliber. So I bought a box of .243 Win cartridges and, problem solved! 



PapawSmith said:


> A 300 Weatherby will rattle anyone's teeth and a brake on a rifle will remove the eardrums from you while you stand beside her and watch her teeth getting rattled. Try to find her an old Model 70 in 300 H&H, it is an outstanding round that is good for all American medium/large game, and low on the recoil spectrum relative to rounds this size. I have a few of these I rounded up for three of my hunting daughters for Elk hunting. They are not everywhere but they are also not too hard to find reasonably priced and it is about the best .30 with really good ballistics that I have found that is really suits well for a smaller female frame to shoot. For Deer, the girls shoot 30-06 (maybe the best all around ever IMO, even with its limits) and recently I have put together a few 6.5 Creedmoor's and a 6.5x284 Norma Mag that are comfortable and effective shooters for them. Good luck, I love that my daughters, and one granddaughter, hunts with me.


So true, Papaw! I've only fired one muzzle braked firearm in my life. It was so long ago that I don't remember if it was a shotgun or rifle, but I believe it was a shotgun. What I KNOW is that I thought I had gone deaf after touching off the shot! I'll take recoil if it will save my hearing! Who hunts with earmuffs on?! 

And it's great that your daughters and granddaughter hunt. Love seeing the ladies out there. Heck, any kids at all. We run into this occasionally at my gun club when pheasant hunting. We'll run into another party that has a pheasant located, with kids along for the hunt. My buddy and I are both in our 60's and have killed plenty of pheasant. We always back off and let the kids have their chance. Let the kids have their thrill. 

Of course, we're always ready with a backup shot!


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## Popspastime

I hunt with all braked rifles. I use the Walkers electronic ear protection in the forward facing ear, right handed/ left ear. It also enhances the sounds outdoors. I feel no recoil whatsoever with large calibers and can shoot it all day on the bench. Touching off 92 grains of powder will get your attention fast.


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## Drm50

I have both 223 and 243. The 243 is more than enough gun for deer and is not marginal. The caliber is minimum .24, not the cartridge. If you are a stand Hunter using a scope and sniping your game any cartridge is capable of taking a deer, even 22rf in practical range. Shooting at jumped deer is a different story. 300yds is a easy shot for either cartridge. The 243 is a better choice for a deer and varmit gun. 

I don't think 22cal CF rifles should be legal on deer. The 223/5.56mm is not one of the hotter 22s anyway. The reason you hear this 223 deer story all the time is because of ARs. You have them saying 223 is great deer gun and the other side saying you need a 45/70 with a special bullet to take a deer. They both will kill a deer, neither are deer rifles. All this has come up fairly recently.
The state's allowing straight cased rifles and the popularity of ARs has brought this on. I don't know anyone who wanted to use any 22cf rifle for deer and don't know a soul that bought a 45/70 for a deer gun. Many guys had both, but the hunted deer with a practical caliber for the game.


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## Drm50

When I said I didn't know anyone who bought a 45/70 for a deer gun, I ment to hunt in states that allow any caliber rifle. Here in Ohio they sell more 45/70s than other straight wall cartridges.


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