# Deer Regs



## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Has anyone heard they legalized more cartridges for deer hunting...rumors abound! Any info appreciated.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Haven't heard anything Drm50...but I sure wish they would. And include the 30/30. 
Have been considering trading a LNIB Magnum Research BFR 475/480 Linebaugh for a 44mag Marlin lever gun or a Ruger 44 carbine but just can't find one local. 
Would much rather have a 30/30 and I know, just as soon as I make a trade on a 44, they will make the 30/30 legal. That's just my luck.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Don't feel bad, I sold 2 Ruger 44 carbines( old model) for [email protected] right before they announced the new regs.
Post pic of BFR, I have mint 1894 JM saddle ring carbine I'm going to trade off & 375 Marlin. Will be using
#3 Ruger/ 375 this year. Was hoping for 30/30-32-35 to be legal.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Drm50 said:


> Don't feel bad, I sold 2 Ruger 44 carbines( old model) for [email protected] right before they announced the new regs.
> Post pic of BFR, I have mint 1894 JM saddle ring carbine I'm going to trade off & 375 Marlin. Will be using
> #3 Ruger/ 375 this year. Was hoping for 30/30-32-35 to be legal.


That's to bad about the Rugers. Have always liked that rifle cause it handles a lot like the 30cal. Carbine.
Would post pics of the BFR but it being a revolver, didn't think they would let me here on OGF.
It's LNIB. Was bought new and has exactly 20rds through it. I love the feel and superb smooth action of the revolver. Just can't handle heavy cal. handgun recoil much over 44sp. anymore due to arthritis in hands.
I too look for ODNR to add more legal cals. to deer hunt with. Like you, just kinda sitting back waiting.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I sincerely doubt you will see any calibers added that have anything other than a straight wall case.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Lundy said:


> I sincerely doubt you will see any calibers added that have anything other than a straight wall case.


You're probably right Lundy. 
I don't go out of state to hunt much anymore so most all my rifles with the exception of varmint calibers have become safe queens. 
May have to start thinning the herd a bit.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I have been thinning my hunting rifles. I haven't been out of state for 5 years. Use to do a week deer out of
State, spring Bear in Canada, and a week on whatever crew wanted to do. Now I am the crew. Got rid of
all my Magnum rifles and most of the Varmit rifles. Going to thin shotguns too, not much to use them on anymore.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Drm50 said:


> I have been thinning my hunting rifles. I haven't been out of state for 5 years. Use to do a week deer out of
> State, spring Bear in Canada, and a week on whatever crew wanted to do. Now I am the crew. Got rid of
> all my Magnum rifles and most of the Varmit rifles. Going to thin shotguns too, not much to use them on anymore.


Having a hard time in the shotgun dept. as far as giving them up. Over the years have collected some older Brownings, Ithaca 37's and a few Rem. 1100's each in different gauges that I can't seem to part with. Especially the sets of Brownings and Ithaca's. Don't shoot them much anymore and if I turkey, squirrel or rabbit hunt, I always seem to grab one of the field guns.
Seems the black powder long gun bug has had me for the last 10+ yrs. 
Love to experiment with them.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

The only Black Powder bug that bit me are originals. I have a couple T/C Hawkins, that were gifts or I would have offed them long ago. I bought a set of special edition books, Ohio Gunsmiths and Allied Tradesmen for
$200. Best investment I've ever made. You kick out a signed rifle, by a documented old smith and you are in
the tall cotton. Actually more becoming out, new generation have no scruples about selling family heirlooms.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Drm50 said:


> The only Black Powder bug that bit me are originals. I have a couple T/C Hawkins, that were gifts or I would have offed them long ago. I bought a set of special edition books, Ohio Gunsmiths and Allied Tradesmen for
> $200. Best investment I've ever made. You kick out a signed rifle, by a documented old smith and you are in
> the tall cotton. *Actually more becoming out, new generation have no scruples about selling family heirlooms.*
> 
> ...


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I wouldn't be surprised at any new regs passed. I remember when handgun season was a rumor, there were guys saying you will never see it, as it was going through. Just like the rifle season, l am still running into guys
who weren't aware of it. Like the silencer deal, not very well publicized. Most people don't think that should have
be legalized for taking game animals. These new In-Lines, loaded with smokeless powder, have higher velocities
than the legal CF rifles. To start with they need a person to advise them on cartridges. The laws are geared to
have calibres that are not going to cause problems by "over travel", especially in the 3/4ths of Ohio that is basically flat and has the densest population. So with the enhanced Muzzel loaders, and all the advances in
slugs with sabots & riflings, the old classic deer guns in 30 to 38 cals., that are in the 2000 to 2300 fps should
be reasonable. The bottle neck, tapered, or rimless case should not be the determining factor. By just using
the cartridges as basis, most legal rifle cartridges can be hand loaded to equal or exceed the 30/30, 32, or 35.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Agree 100%.

Can't use a bottle necked cartridge to deer hunt with....but you can to varmint hunt with.
Here's another that doesn't make since...we're allowed to squirrel hunt with a .22. Lol! One of the most known cartridges for ricochetting ever made...go figure.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Drm50 said:


> To start with they need a person to advise them on cartridges. ................. The bottle neck, tapered, or rimless case should not be the determining factor..


They have multiple people, outside the ODNR, advising them. That is how the rifle regulations came to be. It is was through the efforts of a organized group that worked very hard for a lot of years that these rifle calibers are legal today. One to the key people in this effort is a member here and could do a better job of explaining the long process than I can. To believe that the ODNR doesn't understand the difference in rifle calibers is really silly.

In every negotiation you don't always end up where you would like to be but you gain ground towards that end. The regulation to legalize rifles with HANDGUN calibers that were already legal for hunting in Ohio was the only viable path to the new laws. This process is much more involved that just convincing the ODNR to move this forward. The Farm Bureau also had to be convinced and I'm sure other groups before the rifle regulation changes could move forward. 

Because this was a compromise, middle ground reached, I doubt you will see any bottle neck cartridges legalized anytime soon. That would serve to undermine the entire premise for the compromise that was agreed to. It doesn't imply that it was right or wrong on legal caliber selection based upon velocity or performance, but that the only way to move this forward at all was to adopt already legal calibers.

Legal caliber comparisons for varmint hunting versus deer hunting is an apples and oranges comparison. The hunter density during deer gun season as compared to varmint hunting are not even remotely close.

I assure you that the process is far more complicated than a casual observer on the outside might imagine. If you would like to get involved in change for the future I'm sure that your efforts and participation would be welcomed by those that have been involved for many years in moving this forward.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I can't claim to know anybody on the inside of the Rifle Regs, but I know exactly how system works. I was one
of many guys who collected petitions for Handgun. And at the time new some wheels at DNR. I'm from SE Ohio
and we don't get much bang for our hunting lincense buck. You probaly herd of us, we are the "Other Ohio".
I have very little faith in our DNR and it irritates me to be talked down to by people from other 3/4 of the state.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

As far as my comments goes...having spent 33 yrs as a public servant, I am very well aware of how the system works and the politics played therein. Especially on the state and city levels. 
Though I'm very disappointed with many of the areas the ODNR is involved in that Im familiar with, there are those areas Im happy with and a few areas I'm not familiar with. Ohios deer hunting is an area I'm familiar with and one that, IMO, is not going well for the sportsman. And in turn, will ultimately deal a fatal blow to an already severely financially strapped ODNR. 
I know there are private agencies such as insurance companies(and we all know the clout they carry), Farm Bureau, as will as other government intities(city,county etc.) that the ODNR has to deal with. Then theres PETA , all the anti hunting/gun orgs. lobbying money against them when it comes to hunting. Finally, they have to appease the hunting/non hunting general public as well. 

I said all that to say this...while I may not agree with many things ODNR as a whole has done over the yrs. , especially when it comes to deer hunting/laws/bags limits, I have the utmost respect for most of the ODNR people I know. Most of which are retired now and have many of the same views that I have. 
I have the utmost respect for all those that have volunteered their time for the sake of what we currently have.

Not to be confused, my comments were in no way implying that I'm not greatful for their efforts and hard work. 

My comments were agreeing with Drm50 in that our current gun caliber laws, taking everything into consideration, are ridiculous as they currently stand. Hopefully some day maybe this state will look at a few of the similar surrounding states with comparable terrain and less stringent long gun hunting caliber laws and compare their long gun hunting fatality/Injury stats to ours and see how they compare.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

My intention was to talk deer rifles anyway. Might be a dead dog, by the time coyotes get done with us down
here, there won't be any left to hunt. I just came back from up in Belmont Cnty., I saw my first groundhog this
year. It was in a well kept lawn in St. Clairsville limits. 10 yrs ago in that 35 mi stretch you would have seen
50-100 Ghogs.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Same here...along with the depleting deer and turkey.
The yotes are crazy thick here and a neighbor fella and I are whacking them the best we can. I've been saving some fish carcasses to hunt over shortly with my trusty 243.
Ironically was just talking to a neighbor farmer a couple days ago about the depleting wildlife around here. He is a very active,outdoors, 79yr.old and has lived/farmed the same 150ac. farm most of his adult life. I've hunted his land about the last 20yrs. and now hunt his and my small 33ac. place My house/property sets about 1/4mi. Inside a huge,deep woods that goes for miles into Hocking Co. Also have hunting access to the neighboring 200ac farm and another attaching 30ac. Parcel.
Anyways, we were talking about how badly the deer/turkey herd has dropped. Especially in the last 7-8yrs. Used to be, every evening, it was nothing to look out into some of the pastures and see 20-30 deer or turkey grazing. Now , there are many evenings we don't see any. When we do see them, there may be 2-6 deer and only a handful of turkey. Walk the land is there is clearly far less sign of either then there used to be.
I spoke of this in another thread here some time ago that had to do with excessive deer bag limits. A few of the responses to me as well as others that have noticed the depletion was 'hunt a little harder' or 'spend more time in the woods'.
I considered the sources of these responses due to the fact that the responders clearly missed the whole point of what I and a few others were saying. Which was ODNR needed to reduce the bag limits in certain counties due to the rapid depletion. ODNR reduced this county from 3 to 2.
At any rate, as it stands, I'll take my 200yd capable inline out in the woods and kill a deer or two for the freezer every year as always. And keep my 270 parked in the safe. Hopefully will get them in bow season and can keep all the firearms in the safe.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

The only way to get rid of the coyotes is a state bounty, never happen in today's world. Believe me if it involves
money the Coyotes would be gone in a short time. My pet peeve has always been Buck poaching. Some one
taking a doe to eat never bothered me. But we have these young guys coming in here and riding the back
roads, after big bucks. They shoot them at night with a rifle.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Drm50 said:


> The only way to get rid of the coyotes is a state bounty, never happen in today's world. Believe me if it involves
> money the Coyotes would be gone in a short time. My pet peeve has always been Buck poaching. Some one
> taking a doe to eat never bothered me. But we have these young guys coming in here and riding the back
> roads, after big bucks. They shoot them at night with a rifle.


Sounds like you and I may be neighbors. 
Poaching period bothers me. But if a family was hard up against it and without meat, I'd have to turn my head on that one. For sure, regardless of law, my family will never go hungry if I can help it. But with all the assistance out there today, just don't see that situation happening to anyone.
Like you, what gets me is the 2-3 incidents every late summer or early fall when people find big bucks around here with their antlers cut off and the back straps cut out. Usually a farmer finds them in his fields just off the road with exit holes the size of a basketball.
Between a virtually unchecked yote population, poaching and excessive bag limits, how much pressure can a herd withstand?


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Know for the $6400 question: How did the Coyotes get here. See if you can get a straight answer on that from
any DNR types. The answer is going to be one of those Pee on my back and tell me it's raining type. I had one
tell me they have always been here, you just didn't see them!


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Pretty sure they slowly came from Mexico


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I hope that is suppose to be a joke.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

They've extended their range and eventually ended up here. Simple as that. I'm sure you're implying that the odnr released them. You probably also believe they released rattle snakes from helicopters like everyone else down here in SE Ohio. 

We get the short end of the stick down here, but sometimes we ask for it...


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Matter of fact I do believe "A" DNR introduced them, not necessarily Ohio's.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm another one that believes someone had something to do with bringing them east of the Mississippi. we went for yrs and yrs and never had a problem. then out of nowhere the whole eastern part of the country was full of them. I just don't believe enough of them crossed the Mississippi to stock the whole eastern part of the country. just like Michigan stocking wolves and elk, and the rest of the country stocking turkey. I think the federal goverment stocked parts of the country on the down low. but it might have been a federal thing instead of the local dnr. but I believe someone Is to blame.
sherman


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

...and I'm another that believes that it is a distinct possibility that man had something to do with bringing them to these parts.


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Did you hear about the diver who was checking the dam at ( insert local lake name here ) and there were catfish bigger than him ! 
Swore he'd never go back .


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Our interstate system provided corridors for coyotes to travel and expand their territory . They've been around longer than alot of people realize in Ohio . I remember my uncle shooting one during ML season in southern tusc county in the late 80s . 
I also don't think coyotes are the end of deer on a property . They kill a few deer , but not many . They'll definitely take fawns . But a coyote , or for that matter several average size coyotes are gonna have their paws full trying to take down a healthy deer


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Carpn, what you say is true, but 80s is not a long time ago. While also true that coyotes don't take full grown
deer, they work the fawns, to death. We will never know for sure how coyotes got here, or for what reason.
The one thing I do know they have wiped out small game to point of extinction in some spieces. Deer herd
is on the decline. Why weren't they here before? Where's the reason for them to be here? Who profits from
coyote invasion ? I can't answer these questions anymore than you can. A lot of us are in the boonies every
day, we live here. Any answer to coyote problem at this point, is just opinion. Anybody that tells you different
is a lair.


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Not gonna disagree that coyote take their fair share of small game ...but my opinion is land use has had the greatest effect . Farming practices and timbering is done alot different now than yrs past . Seems like to a farmers that fencerows , trees , briars , and brush are a plague and they do whatever they can to eliminate them .


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## Eatmybait (Apr 14, 2016)

Carpn said:


> Not gonna disagree that coyote take their fair share of small game ...but my opinion is land use has had the greatest effect . Farming practices and timbering is done alot different now than yrs past . Seems like to a farmers that fencerows , trees , briars , and brush are a plague and they do whatever they can to eliminate them .


A few yrs back a friend had a trail cam set up watching a yote den/ in 24hrs the yotes drug in 7 fawns.


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

If he knew there was a den there he should of set a snare and killed em instead of just putting a cam there


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Just the opposite is true in SE Ohio. Cover and feed is better than it has been in my life. There has been a lot
of timbering,but doesn't take long for second growth, which should be ideal grouse cover. A month ago coyotes
got horse on farm in Belmont Cnty. Sheep farmers having coyote trouble with lambs, new born calves, just about
anything that they can get their teeth in. About the only thing left is squirrel. Like I said, everyone has got a
opinion. The only people that seem to want to push theirs as fact, are the ones not even involved on day to day
basis. I'm leaving in a few minutes, will be driving 35 mi. There is a good chance I will see nothing but a couple
squirrels on a 45 min trip through the boonies.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

A few good reads on the deer versus coyote subject:

http://www.petersenshunting.com/dee...er-can-these-killers-bring-down-mature-bucks/

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/big-game-hunting/coyotes-vs-deer-the-predation-effect/

Interesting in the Grandviewoutdoors article talking about DNA of northern coyote have bred with the wolf creating a hybrid wolf/coyote mix that is bigger and more aggressive then the more southern yote.

I guess not all wolves are as aggressive with killing yotes as others, eh?

And...didn't some different DNR's re-introduce the wolf to many areas that were extinct from them? This being the case, while we may not be able to say whether DNR's brought yotes to an area or not, we can surely say they had a huge hand in helping the production of this larger, more aggressive hybrid yote.

IMO(as well as the opinions of most all the outdoorsmen I know in this area), from what I've witnessed in this area over the last 5-6yrs.there's been a huge a decline in deer and turkey numbers. Have talked with fellow outdoorsmen in Hocking, Vinton and Jackson counties that say the same. While we are all in agreement that the reduced numbers for each have various reason, one thing both shortages have in common is the increase in yote population and the known fact that the yote is a predator that keys on both species. Of course, when it comes to deer(and I've beat this drum to death) the extreme bag limits over the past several years has been the biggest issue.
So, to sum my opinion up(and it's worth exactly what you paid for it) yotes have become an overpopulated, unmonitored problem and a common denominator when it comes to the ever increasing depletion of wildlife in Ohio from deer down to rabbits.
And it doesn't look to get any better.
Yotes...coming to a neighborhood near you. Keep an eye on Fluffy.


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## Eatmybait (Apr 14, 2016)

Carpn said:


> If he knew there was a den there he should of set a snare and killed em instead of just putting a cam there


He took care of the problem. He was proving a point


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Roger that


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

The deer are thinning out, because that is what they're supposed to be doing. The past server al years of management practices have been designed to lower the number of deer in ohio. It worked. 

The problem is that people got so used to an over population of deer that now they think they're endangered just because they can't kick one out of every brush pile during their deer drives. 

I keep hearing how everything is declining. I think the only thing declining is the amount of outdoorsmen who have the ability to adapt and succeed. 

I laugh my rear off when I stop by my local mcdonalds for breakfast on the way to work during gun season. There will be 20 guys in orange sitting around drinking coffee and complaining about how "there just ain't no deer left around". How would they know? They spend their time sitting around pouting in mcdonalds instead of out looking for them. I have no problem seeing plenty of deer and plenty of turkeys. I trap a lot and see plenty of coyotes, and rarely do I see a depletion of any other game in the same areas.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

I know some pics are out there of yotes with deer but there is a game cam about every 50 yards in todays woods. If it was such a huge problem we would all have those pics.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> The deer are thinning out, because that is what they're supposed to be doing. The past server al years of management practices have been designed to lower the number of deer in ohio. It worked.
> 
> The problem is that people got so used to an over population of deer that now they think they're endangered just because they can't kick one out of every brush pile during their deer drives.
> 
> ...


I see and hear these same things from guys sitting in some of the same places dressed in all their hunting garb as well. They get up and hit the woods smelling like a baconator with extra onion and French fries and wonder why they never see a thing.
On the other hand, I also know some serious,avid hunters/outdoorsman that know how to hunt that are very concerned that maybe ODNR's deer reduction gameplan has worked even better then they thought it would with not only excessive high bag limits but the yote population explosion as well. Especially here in the country where the majority of the deer are taken. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are deer running all over the cities close surrounding areas(parks, no hunting suburban areas) and these deer are figured in ODNR's tally when stating total deer herd stats. These deer cannot be hunted. They are thinned by officials hiring and paying several thousands in tax dollars to companies that bring sharpshooters in to kill them at night. You can bet that the monies set aside for this issue doesn't rank real high on the state or city budget agenda. If something more pressing comes along(and it often does) that $ is reallocated for something else. Too, they are not thinning the yote in these areas and not succeeding with the deer either. The excessive bag limits are set including these non-huntable deer in the 'total state deer' tally and the deer are being taken from legal hunting zones which is mostly country areas. Guess where the yotes will eventually migrate to and multiply the most fast at. In essence, more and more yotes are being steared towards more populated areas where the food supply is the easiest to obtain. A good friend of mine lives out by Mt. Carmel East Hospital and they see deer/yotes in their neighborhood/yards on a regular basis. A couple other friends live in neighborhoods on the east side of Cols. close to Eastland shopping center and it's the same there. 
While we may not be able to point fingers at anyone specific about how different species show up in different areas, and we may be wrong in accusing ODNR of outright dumping yotes in certain areas, there are other factors to consider that maybe DNR's has done that might have helped cause the migration of certain animals. IMO, the above scenario of an over abundance of inner city deer being easier prey for yotes is causing more yotes to migrate to the city's/suburbs is a classic example of these 'other factors'.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Some one back several posts, a wildlife expert I believe, said something about rattle snakes. I never herd the
story about dropping them from helicopters. I do remember a article in Ohio Wildlife about rescuing a den
of endangered Pigmy Rattlers, somewhere in NW Ohio. I don't know what became of that project, but I think
Wayne National Forrest was under consideration for relocation. Never herd anymore about it. This was in 
late 70s I believe.


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## coastal210 (May 1, 2015)

Trying to decide which caliber to get for deer tough decision.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

If you are going to basically hunt deer in the woods, in Ohio, I have come to the conclusion 44 mag is the best
choice, for out to 125 yds, being the practical range of most carbines. I am looking into 375 Win, single shot
with spitzer bullets for Power Line long shots. A lot of guys buying 45/70 Guide Guns, with short barrel on
45/70, you don't gain much of a 44 mag. And a 45/70 is way more gun needed for deer. The other calibres
legal can be hard to get ammo for, 375 included. I have all three so I'm not bad mouthing any of the calibres
only pointing out the most practical choice.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Drm50 said:


> If you are going to basically hunt deer in the woods, in Ohio, I have come to the conclusion 44 mag is the best
> choice, for out to 125 yds, being the practical range of most carbines. I am looking into 375 Win, single shot
> with spitzer bullets for Power Line long shots. A lot of guys buying 45/70 Guide Guns, with short barrel on
> 45/70, you don't gain much of a 44 mag. And a 45/70 is way more gun needed for deer. The other calibres
> ...


Agree with the 44mag. being best cal. out of what we have to choose from. 
Also like the .45lc a lot but ammo may be a little harder to get ahold of.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Drm50 said:


> Just the opposite is true in SE Ohio. Cover and feed is better than it has been in my life. There has been a lot
> of timbering,but doesn't take long for second growth, which should be ideal grouse cover. A month ago coyotes
> got horse on farm in Belmont Cnty. Sheep farmers having coyote trouble with lambs, new born calves, just about
> anything that they can get their teeth in. About the only thing left is squirrel. Like I said, everyone has got a
> ...


So how was your drive?


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I rate the 45colt right with 44mg in preformance out of carbine. Especially with hand loads. I have never used
45C carbine on deer, but have scuffed a couple with 45C handgun. Ammo mat be a tad harder to buy, also
think the choices in 45 are few. I don't own one now, but the ultimate 44 mg deer gun would be a Rem 788
Bolt action, out of production for years.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Results of the 35 mi drive, since post have done 2 rd trips= 140 mi. Critter count 9 squirrel, 1 **** and 1 dead
Road killed coyote. Saw Wood Ducks and a muskrat swimming in creek. One 16 mi stretch down a creek
bottom, lined with crop & hay fields was an area where deer could be seen just about anytime of day or time
of year. Coal trucks were hard on deer on straight stretches, there was always 2or 3 road kills. Buzzards
may need food stamps this year.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Depending on the terrain you hunt your choice may differ from mine. I hunt a lot of open country.

1st .375 Winchester, nearly impossible to find gun or ammo. I saw one for sale here a few weeks ago.
2nd. 444 marlin, inexpensive H&R's available, ammo readily available, easy 200 yd gun
3rd. .357 Maximum - harder to find than a .375 Winchester, 180 gr at 2450 FPS
4th - I don't have a 4th choice.

I own a .444 Marlin and two .357 Maximums and like them both very much


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Lundy said:


> Depending on the terrain you hunt your choice may differ from mine. I hunt a lot of open country.
> 
> 1st .375 Winchester, nearly impossible to find gun or ammo. I saw one for sale here a few weeks ago.
> 2nd. 444 marlin, inexpensive H&R's available, ammo readily available, easy 200 yd gun
> ...


Agree that given terrain choices, cal. preferences would be different. Here in 'hill country' a 200' shot is very scarce. Though there are a couple spots across a couple of ravines that if we wait for the deer to drop down a bit on the opposite hillside so there is a backstop we can safely get off a 175 shot.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I have shot more than my share of deer. Have done 95% of my rifle deer hunting in Pa, WVa, and Va. I have
used about every calibre you can think of but killed most with 30/30, 35, 308, 30/06 and 270. Like I said I've
shot a lot of deer, I was the tag filler, and I can tell you that most of the deer I have shot were way under a
hundred yds. All I can say, anyone that can shoot into 6" at 200yds, with a 444 is a better shot than me.
Especially with a H&R Handy Rifle. I usually find that distances are often misjudged and the LV stuff we
have to use in Ohio are very unforgiving in that dept.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Drm50 said:


> All I can say, anyone that can shoot into 6" at 200yds, with a 444 is a better shot than me.
> Especially with a H&R Handy Rifle.


Hahaha, yes, apparently.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Lundy, are you telling me you can shoot a off hand group into 6" at 200 yds with a 444 Handy-Rifle?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

No, not a chance, not off hand, from a rest it is very, very easy to achieve. I do not shoot off hand when I hunt.
I have 3 handi rifles, a .444 Marlin that groups under 1-1/2" at 100, a .357 maximum that is also under 1-1/2" and another .357 maximum that is under 1". Don't underestimate the handi-rifle. I also have two muzzleloaders, Savage smokeless, 45 cal, than shoot sub MOA at 200 yds

I highly doubt that even with these very accurate rifles that I could consistently shoot under 6" off hand at 100 yds. I can't remember the last time I shot a deer off hand, it has been a long, long time. I have always hunted with single shot guns, even when it was shotgun only. I am a big believer in one well placed shot, from a rest, is all I need.


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

When I was hunting I used a T/C Contender. 357MAX . Hand loaded my own cartridges.

Remington small rifle primers , win 296 powder and Remington 35 cal 150 grain rifle bullets. Barrel was 12 inches. Do not remember exact velocity but I remember it was deadly accurate.

From a sturdy rest 1 inch groups were the norm. Out to 200 yds the group opened up to 4-6 inch. I set my scope to 2.5 in high @ 100 so I could hold dead on out to 200. Experimented with many scopes and the one that did the best job was a 1X4 variable leupold with thick crosshairs.

Up to 150 yds my 44 mag setup could almost match the 357 MAX but at 200 the 357 won hands down.
I think the spire point rifle bullets had a lot to do with that. The 44 at the time was saddles with just bullets designed for pistols.

All that being said my 357 max never killed a deer beyond 40 yds. My last 6-7 years of hunting just never had a longer range chance. To me if you hand load the 357 MAX is hard to beat for hunting in straight wall cartridge limitation areas. With reservation when it comes to .444 marlin. If it was legal when I hunted I would have loved to seen what I could have done with that.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Lundy, now I believe you. You would be surprised what a lot of hunters claim they can do. My old man use to
go to Deer Rifle Turkey Shoots over at Lou Wetzel range in WVA. Rules: no rests, any scope, any calibre.
Target: Clay Pigeon at 100yds. They had 24 shooters on a line. Many times not one out of 24 would hit the
Pigeon. A lot of guys left a little meeker than when they arrived.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Pappaperch,

When I knew that the straight wall was going to be legalized for Ohio deer hunting I started looking for a caliber that would work well with my daughter-in-law. She is a little thing and even the 20 gauge heavy barrel H&R slugster was rocking her world. The .357 maximum, Handi-Rifle ended up being the perfect choice. Shooting a 180 Horandy SPP and 1680 powder handloaded rounds I set her up at 2300 FPS. Her first 3 shots ever with the gun went into 1-1/2" at 100. There is very, very little felt recoil and an extremely accurate gun for her to hunt with. I set it 1" high at 100 and it was 1" low at 150. It was point and shoot gun for her out to 150. She always hunts from one of the many shooting blinds I have set up so she always has a stable rest. She killed a 2-1/2 year old 6 point with a perfectly placed shot at around 125 yds and the deer went maybe 20 yds. You never really know the performance of a round or load until you have actual results but I can say I was impressed with the terminal performance of that setup on the deer she shot.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Was a member of the Columbus Muzzleloading Club for many years. Actually went there as far back as when I was a kid as my dad was a member and that was in the time frame when all the old timer, flintlock shooters looked down on the 'new fangled' cap lock shooters and didn't want to shoot with them.
At any rate, like you guys, have been involved in enough shoots (bench and off hand) to know that 'off hand' shoots will humble the best regardless of firearm used. Even the young guys full of pee and vinegar( been there and was humbled more than once).

Today, the very reason I always hunt using some kind of rest, whether it be part of a stand or leaned against a tree. With the eyes going south and not having the strength or reflexes of a young buck anymore and knowing it, I owe it to ole Bambi to use a rest.
But can still hit a paper plate consistently @ 200's with a couple 'rested' inlines as well as 100's lobbing in 1oz. Brenneke slugs out of my 1100 smooth bore Remington.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I knew a guy, he has passed several years ago. Was a WW2 Marine. While sitting in a joint would listed to
stories of 1100s shooting oranges at 100yds, every time. The SKS that shot into the same hole at 100yds
and on and on. He would put a $100 bill on the bar and say lets go down the road, get your gun. Most of the
time Nimrod would crawfish, but every now and then some fool would bite. Joint would empty out and convoy
to gravel pitt. 100yd was already there, every one in town sighted in there. He never lost his $100 that I know
of. His theory was that the average guy couldn't hit a 9" pie pan consistently , off hand at 100 yds, and I believe
he is right.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Drm50 said:


> I knew a guy, he has passed several years ago. Was a WW2 Marine. While sitting in a joint would listed to
> stories of 1100s shooting oranges at 100yds, every time. The SKS that shot into the same hole at 100yds
> and on and on. He would put a $100 bill on the bar and say lets go down the road, get your gun. Most of the
> time Nimrod would crawfish, but every now and then some fool would bite. Joint would empty out and convoy
> ...


I believe he is right as well and would have set up another $100 next to his.
If someone tells me they can hit that accurate consistantly at 100yds off hand, I instantly become from the 'show me state'.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

Hmmm.....If enough of you are willing to put up the money I would take that bet....lol


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I'm ready to do some shootin! I've got some pretty accurate stuff lol. One guy was amazed at this piece of plastic I was knocking around the pistol range with my Ruger Standard. Probably 5-6 shots in a row hitting this little piece of bottle top. I like target shooting.


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

357 max all the way around but you have to roll your own


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

Lundy said:


> Pappaperch,
> 
> When I knew that the straight wall was going to be legalized for Ohio deer hunting I started looking for a caliber that would work well with my daughter-in-law. She is a little thing and even the 20 gauge heavy barrel H&R slugster was rocking her world. The .357 maximum, Handi-Rifle ended up being the perfect choice. Shooting a 180 Horandy SPP and 1680 powder handloaded rounds I set her up at 2300 FPS. Her first 3 shots ever with the gun went into 1-1/2" at 100. There is very, very little felt recoil and an extremely accurate gun for her to hunt with. I set it 1" high at 100 and it was 1" low at 150. It was point and shoot gun for her out to 150. She always hunts from one of the many shooting blinds I have set up so she always has a stable rest. She killed a 2-1/2 year old 6 point with a perfectly placed shot at around 125 yds and the deer went maybe 20 yds. You never really know the performance of a round or load until you have actual results but I can say I was impressed with the terminal performance of that setup on the deer she shot.


Lundy can you still find the Hornady spp for the max?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Saugernut said:


> Lundy can you still find the Hornady spp for the max?


I don't know, I was able find 200 of them 2 years ago. Those will last me quite a while so I haven't been looking lately.


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## Saugernut (Apr 22, 2013)

Ok I've been buying the Speer 35 caliber rifle bullets but would love to get my hands on some of the Hornady bullets. I've heard from the old timers they are the best bullets for the max hands down.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I have had a little experience with the 357max. I had a Savage 0/U, 357max/ 20g. I played with a bunch of
different pistol bullets. All the major Manf. 158gr shot very well. Then I tried rifle bullets. I figured the 150
Spire points would be the berries, Wrong they didn't shoot for snot. Then I tried the 200 RN Hornaday
it would shoot 1 1/2" at 100 off bench. Was using a 3x9 scope. I have to look in my notes for load.
I know I used 2400 powder, but forget the charge weight. I think data I started with was out of G&A
magazine. I have found the same thing to be true in 35 Rem rifles, they like the RN bullets. The
Spire points in 35 cal just seem to be out of proportion to shoot accurately.


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