# Reef Runner Colors



## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

Getting ready to purchase a few Reef Runners and would like some input to what were the "hot" colors for those who use them. Must admit looking at the color charts they all look pretty good. Already purchased a few in "cheap sunglasses" and "eriedesent". Will run some behind inline boards in western basin and behind dipsy's and jets in the central basin. Thanks' in advance for the input


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## Smallmouth70 (Mar 11, 2007)

Can't go wrong with Chrome/Blue. Always seem to catch fish on those. I also like Bare Naked, Pink Lemonade, Emerald Shiner, and Gold Clown.


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## Captain Kevin (Jun 24, 2006)

Purple prism, blue prism, green perch, lights out, all the wonder breads, mooneye minnow, cranberry crusher for starters.


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## normd (Jul 5, 2005)

Pink Lemonade, Moodeye Minnow, Cranberry Crusher


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## wave warrior (Oct 2, 2005)

Snook said:


> Getting ready to purchase a few Reef Runners and would like some input to what were the "hot" colors for those who use them. Must admit looking at the color charts they all look pretty good. Already purchased a few in "cheap sunglasses" and "eriedesent". Will run some behind inline boards in western basin and behind dipsy's and jets in the central basin. Thanks' in advance for the input


maybe its just me but rr didnt work with jet 40's. kept surfacing! go with a snap weight for cranks, a 2oz 50' in front of crank did well last few years...you can still run these on the inlines..as far as colors go-barbie, pearl ghost,pink panties as well as the others mentioned!!


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Any deep diving lure will not run behind a Jet or a Dipsy at "normal" speeds. 

Spoons, Harnesses, shallow diving lures are fine but not deep divers.

My must have Reef Runner colors for Erie :all the Bare Naked colors, Bubble Gum, Eriedescent, White Purple Tiger, Wild Thing (or Huckleberry), Rainbow Trout, Fruit Loops. Emerald Shinner, Blueberry Mufin, Purple Prism, Pink Lemonaide, Chrome Blue back, Purple Demon, Chartruse Wonderbread & Easter Egg.

Good luck.


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

I second what Jim said but add Blue Wonderbread one of my top baits last year. along with Mooneye Minnow and Lights out. I have never used the Rainbow Trout but guess I will have to go put one in the lineup now


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Blue headed Wonderbread has a glow belly. Just for clearity or confusion ...whichever way you want to look at it.

Now do we want to through in UV colors as well ???


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

If Im reef runner fishing Ill fish these baits, depending on water clarity depends on which ones Ill fish first. For dingy water I like white or dark baits like mooneye or purple demon etc. 
These colors will fish in any water condition all year crystal clear to filthy dirty spring to fall day or night. If your building a Reefy collection these are guuuud ones. :T

Raspberry Dolphin
Blueberry Muffin
Texas Red
Rainbow Trout
Barbie
Blueberry Muffin 
Emerald Shiner
Pink Lemonade 
Purple Demon
Salamander 
Blue Hawiian
Confusion
Eriedescent
Mooneye Minnow
Chartreuse Wonderbread
Wonderbread Black Head
Wonderbread Red Head
Rainbow Prism
White/Purple Hot Tiger
Pink Squirrel
Pearl Orange Tiger
Pearl Ghost Bare Naked
Bare Naked 
Lights Out
Fire Perch Bare Naked
Pink Panties Bare Naked


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## HWood (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey Jim.. U know i've got the best lookin UV reef runners around!! HEHE. I would have to say that Mooneye, all prisms, Blue/Black Chrome, Pink Lemonade, Chart. Pearl Minnow, Cat Dog, Trick or Treat, all wonderbreads, blueberry muffin, Hot Flash, blue hawaiin, Purple hot Tiger, Dr. Dreadful, and Red Hot tiger are the ones I have been able to turn to when I need to catch fish.


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

From the looks of things they all are pretty good. You guys are going to have me spending more money then anticipated Anyone try the "flame" color yet? I ran a lot of the Kaboom shiners last year and the "goldfish" color did really well. As far as the dipsy's and jet's I'll be running the shallow Little Rippers and Ripsticks.


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## HWood (Jan 9, 2009)

Flame is another that has produced some fish for me.. At times its the hot color of the day.. but every color is gonna have its day!! LOL


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## No-Net (Jan 8, 2007)

The Flame color is one of my goto colors for Mosquito. I have larger ones for Erie but I have'nt really fished them much. Eriedesent is still my fovorite with the Bare Naked a close second.:T


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## CarpetBagger (Sep 21, 2009)

Gold is a fantastic color in the central basin of erie. Gold & Black, Gold & Orange. Pink Trailer Trash, Purple Deamon, Rebel Queen, Eriedescent, Bare Naked, Rainbow Trout, and a few others I like to run...



Fisherman1800 said:


> The Flame color is one of my goto colors for Mosquito. I have larger ones for Erie but I have'nt really fished them much. Eriedesent is still my fovorite with the Bare Naked a close second.:T


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## Rippin Lips (Jun 12, 2009)

I had good luck with Copper head,tutti fruity,salamander,and kryptonite last year.


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## CarpetBagger (Sep 21, 2009)

Seems the general answer is buy reef runners in any color run at desired depth...catch fish...

Color seems to boil down to personal preferance and confidence levels...I think as long as you get the bait down to where it needs to be you are going to be successful..

I run 3 types of plugs...Reef Runners, Thundersticks (kabooms), and Rapala Deep Huskys we do well on all of em...


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## ReelTimeWes (Aug 20, 2009)

Last year we did real well on the chartreuse back, silver sides, white belly in the "WE Bait" that my dad makes. Can you tell he's proud?


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## beatsworkin (Apr 12, 2004)

In addition to those all mentioned, I like Hot Tamale. Has almost always caught the biggest fish for us.


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## Makin Bacon (Sep 28, 2009)

beatsworkin said:


> In addition to those all mentioned, I like Hot Tamale. Has almost always caught the biggest fish for us.


 I was waiting to see if someone was going to say that. Same with me last year, go to colors for me tutti fritie , pink lemonade, barley naked purple and cranberry crusher:T:T:T


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## Longspur (Sep 9, 2004)

I have used the Reef Runners and Husky Jerks for many years now and found that the Husky Jerks at least "for me" will catch significantly more fish than the Reef Runners. My favs are the Holo purple and white in the HJ's

Longspur


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Longspur said:


> I have used the Reef Runners and Husky Jerks for many years now and found that the Husky Jerks at least "for me" will catch significantly more fish than the Reef Runners. My favs are the Holo purple and white in the HJ's
> 
> Longspur


I'm curious ...what is your typical trolling speed??

(we'll see if my hunch is right) or not.


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## Longspur (Sep 9, 2004)

Jim Stedke said:


> I'm curious ...what is your typical trolling speed??
> 
> (we'll see if my hunch is right) or not.


I do not have a "typical" trolling speed, (quite honeslty I do not see how anyone could), rather a presentation based on what works for any given day. That is determined by wind, waves, etc, combined with a trial and error process in an effort to focus in on what they prefer. 

Longspur


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

Ok typical is between 1.3 and 2.5 usually on any given day you can catch them in that range.  Longspur was correct it just depends on the day and conditions


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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

Longspur said:


> I have used the Reef Runners and Husky Jerks for many years now and found that the Husky Jerks at least "for me" will catch significantly more fish than the Reef Runners. My favs are the Holo purple and white in the HJ's


The Husky Jerks put more fish in the boat for me over the past few seasons, as well. I still run the RRs, and they do catch fish, but I've had more confidence in the HJs lately.


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## Tommybouy (Jun 5, 2005)

Wave Warrior commented on the RR rising to the surface w/ diving planers and suggested using weight. 

I would like to add that this is b/c diving planers are designed for presentations that are unable to dive deep on their own like stick baits, spoons and crawler harnesses. If you purchase RR to use w/ diving planers the Ripstick is the model you want for use w/ diving planers. 

The diving, side-to-side action of a deep diver will create problems for a diving planer everytime. This blankets all deep divers i.e. hot-n-tots, RR, deep thundersticks etc. You may have meant the Ripsticks by saying Reef Runner but they are $6 each which adds up quick and wanted to avoid an OH $%#! moment. and kill time 






Snook said:


> Getting ready to purchase a few Reef Runners and would like some input to what were the "hot" colors for those who use them. Must admit looking at the color charts they all look pretty good. Already purchased a few in "cheap sunglasses" and "eriedesent". Will run some behind inline boards in western basin and behind dipsy's and jets in the central basin. Thanks' in advance for the input


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Longspur, Ok then...what is the range of your trolling speed. heck none of us fish at 1 speed all the time.


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## ERIE REBEL (Jan 28, 2006)

Snook said:


> From the looks of things they all are pretty good. You guys are going to have me spending more money then anticipated Anyone try the "flame" color yet? I ran a lot of the Kaboom shiners last year and the "goldfish" color did really well. As far as the dipsy's and jet's I'll be running the shallow Little Rippers and Ripsticks.


Welcome to the RR addiction.Once it starts it is very hard to stop.In the spring i like anything with the white.A little later the nakeds and a few of the other will produce.


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## Angler ss (May 15, 2008)

I like Pink Lemonade, Emerald Shiner and Barbie.


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

Tommybouy said:


> Wave Warrior commented on the RR rising to the surface w/ diving planers and suggested using weight.
> 
> I would like to add that this is b/c diving planers are designed for presentations that are unable to dive deep on their own like stick baits, spoons and crawler harnesses. If you purchase RR to use w/ diving planers the Ripstick is the model you want for use w/ diving planers.
> 
> The diving, side-to-side action of a deep diver will create problems for a diving planer everytime. This blankets all deep divers i.e. hot-n-tots, RR, deep thundersticks etc. You may have meant the Ripsticks by saying Reef Runner but they are $6 each which adds up quick and wanted to avoid an OH $%#! moment. and kill time


Your right Tommybouy. I contacted Reef Runner and they suggested that I run the shallow "Little Rippers" and the "Ripsticks" behind the dipsy's and jet's. I primarily fish the central basin(closer to home) and would primarily be using them in that fashion. I have some inline boards that I recently purchased for the western basin. I will either run some weight with them(the shallow runners) or put em' behind some jet's. I have lot's of Kaboom Shiners(shallow runners) I have been using with good success but see that everyone is using the Reef Runners and would like to get a box of them started...the wife would love to hear that I see that Dave Storm is supposedly halting production so it looks like Reef Runners from here out. Also, for those running the Husky Jerks , how are you running them? They a shallow or deep diver?


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## CarpetBagger (Sep 21, 2009)

Central Basin Troller here....

When fish are deep we like to run about 35-50ft of line out clip on 3-5oz of lead and let em out 200'-250' and clip em on the boards. Generally depending on trolling speeds this gets ya down around 40-50ft with ease and is back far enough to run dipsys inside of your board rods....


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Snook, We run wts ahead of deep Reef Runners alot in the Summer. quite effective.


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## Bob Why (Jul 16, 2004)

And then there are the new colors for the year. Blue Moon, Grape Ape, and Skinned Squirrel. And a couple left overs from last year that I just picked up. Green Flash and Eriely Naked. For Husky Jerks both deep and shallow. Sizes 12 and 14. Thank god that Rapala doesn't have all the colors that Reef Runner does. I'm soon going to need a dingy for my tackle box.


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

Don't forget about Chartruse Wonderbread Bare Naked and Flashy Shad I think Flashy Shad RipStick is going to be a great night bait expecially in huron/vermilion. Another one is about to hit the market it's Confusion with a pink head some of you may have seen it at the couple seminars I did at NCA and Gordon Boat Club, the name escapes me at the moment. 

Pics here. http://www.xtackle.com/ The new Bio Crawlers are sweet too, our favorite reef runner colors in a plastic worm to run on harness's.


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Bob, Like I said "all the nakeds". They will earn your confidence.


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## normd (Jul 5, 2005)

That new Confusion sounds cool. I wish there was some place in the Toledo area that sold a decent batch of Reefs, including any new ones. Although Janns is starting to get them.


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Normd, New Confusion ??? Wonderbread on Bare Naked or Grape Ape (purple head & tail w/ chartruese mid-section and black dots). 

The Reefrunner.com web site has all the new colors shown now. Clickon Crank baits.


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Snook, 

As far as the dipsy's and jet's I'll be running the shallow Little Rippers and Ripsticks.

Hey there is a sale going on on Reef Runners web site $3.49 for select 1st quality lures. Great time and place to stock up. 

Go to www.reefrunner.com, click on shop on line, then click on sale.

They are mostly Little Rippers, and the last 3 are Rip Sticks


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## lskater (Mar 19, 2007)

I have done real well with Wild Thing in a shallow running Little Ripper behind a dipsy. Worked great in the western basin in 18-22 fow.


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## normd (Jul 5, 2005)

Jim Stedke said:


> Normd, New Confusion ??? Wonderbread on Bare Naked or Grape Ape (purple head & tail w/ chartruese mid-section and black dots).
> 
> The Reefrunner.com web site has all the new colors shown now. Clickon Crank baits.



Yep Kgone mentioned the "Confusion" one.


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Spoke to Scott Stecker, he likes the idea and may play with it, but if they are out there now, it's one of the many after market or custom paint schemes. Not trying to be a jerk, just don't want people looking for something that is not there. Best wishes, Jim


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## wave warrior (Oct 2, 2005)

once again just reading this Jim know his stuff!!! would love a day on the water with him!! missed my chance a couple years back at saltfork...my bad busy with a bunch of family!!


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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

normd said:


> That new Confusion sounds cool. I wish there was some place in the Toledo area that sold a decent batch of Reefs, including any new ones. Although Janns is starting to get them.


Happy Hooker Bait has a wall of Reef Runners.


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## CarpetBagger (Sep 21, 2009)

Wonder if anyone besides me takes the split rings off and connects directly to the lure with a #2 snap...


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Het, Actually Happy Hooker has a Reef Runner color named Happy Hooker. It's like Purple Barely Naked w' black bars and pink belly (nice color).

They also have more Mich Stinger spoon colors than anyone else (that I know of).


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

Jim Stedke said:


> Spoke to Scott Stecker, he likes the idea and may play with it, but if they are out there now, it's one of the many after market or custom paint schemes. Not trying to be a jerk, just don't want people looking for something that is not there. Best wishes, Jim


Ed from Xtackle gave it to me, I didn't get it custom painted. Maybe Ed will chime in with the status of the bait as you know Xtackle has there exclusive colors I'm thinking this is one of those. In that same batch I also got Flashy Shad and Rosemary's Baby which do exist so I assumed this one is also going to hit the streets as well. I could be wrong!


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

I've not heard of Xtackle doing customs, (I know they have exclusives) but anything is possible. Again, not trying to be a Richard Cranium, just trying to keep things straight.

Thanks for chiming in.


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## HWood (Jan 9, 2009)

It is true.. the new colors for Reef Runners are.. Chart. Wonderbread Bare Naked, Flashy Shad, Rosemary's baby, and Go Go Girl.. I anticipate having all these very soon. Also having another Cranberry exclusive made which hopefully I will see in the near future along with the custom painted Reef Runners I get painted. Skinned Squirrel, Blue Moon, and Grape Ape were actually out last year as I had em as soon as they were available.


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

Hey Mike are you guy's going to dredge the opening to the dock area so people don't hit bottom as much getting in there? Would love to stop in and visit while in your area but don't want to smack skeg and prop getting in the inlet. I have heard it can be a bear so I have not even attempted it.


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

Go Go Girl that's it Ed wrote the name on the bag he sent it to me in but the name escaped me. Thx Mike!! 

I was going to post a picture of it last night but the bait was in the garage and it's cold outside and I was warm inside playing with tackle brrrr.


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## Bob Why (Jul 16, 2004)

Thanks guys. Anyone know where I can get a 6ft dingy cheap? Now I need to call Craig and have him get me Go Go Girl, Wonderbread BareNaked, Flashy Shad and Rosemary's Baby. 
And Jim, your right. The Bare Nakeds are great. Been using them since they became available. Purple Barely Naked has been one of my favorites. I think Grape Ape will be a realy good one. 
Carpet Bagger, I've taken the spit rings off some as that was suggested a couple of years ago. But I don't see where it makes a difference.


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## HWood (Jan 9, 2009)

heck, you oughta see the east side breakwall now that we fixed that!!! Yeah we're gonna dredge, just waitin for the last of ice to get out and water to calm down. The north winds blowing in sand and the south winds blowing the water out after a north wind that blew the sand in is where we run into problems. We havn't even put the docks in yet!! LOL..


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## XTackle (Jan 28, 2007)

Sorry I did not chime in sooner, I was MIA. 

The New Bait in question is Go Go Girl. Vera over at the Karran Shop had us build it last year in a Dave's. 

To Clear up the Exclusive or Custom, not much difference just wordsmithing, we have 40 Exclusive Colors that Reef Runner will only paint for XTacke, and there are ~ 60 additional Customs, that Other Stores can order if they meet the Min Quantities. 

We hope to have them in a week or two, they will be in stores days later. Most shops already have them on back order. 

The bait is better in person the the Picture shows.

The 2010 Reef Runner XTackle Colors are:
166 Chartreuse Wonderbread Bare Naked
165 Rosemary's Baby
164 Go Go Girl
163 Flashy Shad
162 Skinned Squirrel Bare Naked (late fall 09)


Ed
Xtackle


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## Fish Scalper (Oct 31, 2009)

It's my understanding that Wolverine Tackle is painting Reef Runners as well. Are those the aftermarket baits out there in places?


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Ed, I like it, except....., I'm not a fan of colored or plated bills.


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## tomb (Oct 9, 2004)

Doesn't the colored bill cause the bait to appear larger to the fish?


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

It would seem so, but I think it's the vibration that the fish uses to determine size.


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## Makin Bacon (Sep 28, 2009)

Did anyone catch Babe W. show on Versus a couple weeks ago about western basin jiggin and trolling. Did anyone else see their reef runner was tipped with a night crawler ? Has anyone tried that ? Just wondering :T:T:T


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

I tip with a night crawler when the water is very dirty.


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## Makin Bacon (Sep 28, 2009)

Dave , do you add a stinger on the back trebble ? Just wondering since they tend to hit short.:T:T:T Western Basin ?


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## normd (Jul 5, 2005)

Buddy of mine who fishes the Central Basin tips his with a piece of crawler and has success.


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## HWood (Jan 9, 2009)

Fish Scalper... I currently have 6 different custom patterns painted from Wolverine Tackle. Other stores have em too but not sure who and what colors they get done. If you want to see mine.. go to our website fishcranberry.ning.com and the pics are under the tackle forum.


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

Macon Bacon no stinger just about two inches or less of crawler on the exposed front hook so the crawler lays along the belly of the RR. I just think the extra scent helps in dirty water to seal the deal on followers. May actually do nothing but hey I catch fish doing it.


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

On the deep divers a short pc on the belly hook (the point that comes away from the body), short enough to not reach the back hook. And check the tune after tipping. 

On the rip sticks it can be a half on the rear hook. 

Most beneficial on those days when the fish are neutral, and bites are hard to come by.


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## Fish Scalper (Oct 31, 2009)

Mike, I stopped at your place today. You were closed, but I'll stop again.


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## eyesman_01 (Jan 4, 2007)

I have a couple Ripsticks (700), but most of my RR's are the 800 series, which I've had very good luck with. My question is... at what point do you use the Ripstick instead of the deep divers?


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

eyesman there are always fish in the upper water column that you don't see on your FF. I always have at least one bait in the upper 10 feet of the water column and it is usually a 700 series. Some of my biggest fish have come by doing this.


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## ALWAYSNETIN (Feb 18, 2008)

well eyesman in my opinion i like to use them early spring around reefs and late fall when they are back in close feeding on the shiners and always at night when trolling just my .02 cents but it never hurts to pull one anytime when you see high fish on you finder cause they'll always come up to hit a bait but not down buddy so there's my opinion on this one but you'll get others as well on this subject tony


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

Eyesman, Ripsticks are good at night, early season, late season, behind down Dipsys, or jets and on leadcore at slowspeeds with a crawler (like with harneses).

In the summer when the lake gets slick calm with the sun high and bright, is a great time to run them 3' deep. Big walleyes come up to the surface to get shiners and very few ever try for them (you'll never mark them). Just got to stick one out on the outside and see what happens. 

Also for casting on breakwalls or jettys in the fall.

Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## eyesman_01 (Jan 4, 2007)

So for Hetfest I may have better luck puling the 700's behind my boards than the 800's? How close to my boards can I run the 800's and how shallow can they effectively be fished? Guess I'd just never thought about this before. I always stop by Happy Hooker before hitting the lake. They'll be happier to see me this year as I'll be buying a few more baits before the fest.


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## Double J (Jan 7, 2009)

Eyesman 01,this will be my first year pulling inlines and cranks,but from what I've been learning from the pro's on the site here,I will be pulling 800's and dhj12's in april.you may want to try a 700 but mostly will want to run deep baits.anyone else with advice feel free to chime in,I still have alot to learn about trolling,anxious to try out my new boards!good luck eyesman01,Jeff.


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## Iowa Dave (Sep 27, 2009)

eyesman_01 said:


> So for Hetfest I may have better luck puling the 700's behind my boards than the 800's? How close to my boards can I run the 800's and how shallow can they effectively be fished? Guess I'd just never thought about this before. I always stop by Happy Hooker before hitting the lake. They'll be happier to see me this year as I'll be buying a few more baits before the fest.


Keep your radio on Chanel 68 and you will know the answer to that one. You will hear the distance back from the board and on what color and what bait.


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## Bob Why (Jul 16, 2004)

One night last fall we were pulling them 5ft behind the board and that was the only way to get fish. Early spring we usually run them from 40 to 100 feet back, but as was stated listen to the radio and someone will give the program.


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## HWood (Jan 9, 2009)

Sorry bout that man. Right now we're still on winter schedule which im here Mon-Wed. and Fri, Sat from 8am to 5pm. That will change once the warm weather comes which i'll be here Tues.-Sun. from 8-5 then eventually when summer comes it'll be back to those nice 5 or 6am openings!!! LOL


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## eyesman_01 (Jan 4, 2007)

Thanks guys. As I said, I've had great luck with the 800's and usually fish them 60-120 back. And thanks Bob, I wondered if they'd still be effective that close to the boards. George also answered a good part of my questions. Thanks too to Jim. I'm guilty for not targeting those fish highest in the water column, as those are the ones most actively feeding. Will be making some adjustments to my presentations this year.

With experience comes wisdom, and you guys are still teaching more than you know.

My radio is always on when I'm on Erie, listening, and also giving information if I've found something that works. 

I'm soooo ready!!! 17 days to launch!!!


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

70s this weekend.... everyone's fishin pressure will be at dangerously high levels. Hang in there, there will be fish to clean soon.


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

Since were on the topic of colors what about the Husky Jerks?


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## CarpetBagger (Sep 21, 2009)

I like the new glass huskys....The pink, white, and purple perch


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

For day fishing my go to's are.

DJH-12- Glass Perch, Blue/Chrome, Glass Clown, Pink Clown, Blue Glass Minnow, Purple Perch. 

Nite baits- all of them have there time to shine and all work and well, it's almost standard fair to have at least 1 of every color in both size 12 and 14, 12's work better in the spring and on longer leads (small bait fish is the reason I believe), in cleveland when fishing very high over deep water the 14's get my nod (bigger bait fish I believe)


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## Bob Why (Jul 16, 2004)

K-Gone, Where do you get the DHJ 14's. All I've ever seen is the 12's. I have the 14's in the shallow divers though.


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

I was refering to just HJ's (night baits) no such animal as DJH-14's that I know of. I have seen talks of them but they might as well be a unicorn because I've never seen one


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