# Cormorants at Portage Lakes



## nixmkt (Mar 4, 2008)

Saw this on the island in West Res. by the dam along State Mill Road this morning.  Dozens of birds and numerous nests. Trees are covered in droppings but don't appear totally dead yet. Only had the phone so detail isn't very good.


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## exide9922 (Aug 9, 2010)

uck, what a mess...sad


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## buckzye11 (Jul 16, 2009)

I hate Cormorants! Sad thing is they have the same federal protection that an Eagle has. Can't do crap about it... ive made calls over to district 3 office about them and the exploding numbers off them, but nothing can be done until the federal protection act on them is lifted. Panfisherman beware off them too, one of their favorite foods around here is schooling Perch, and they can dive down up to 30 fow to get their food. I hate Cormorants!
Thats what all the white stuff on the island is... perch and crappie...


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## lennyzrx (Dec 31, 2011)

the catfish hunters will follow them!


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## heidlers (May 24, 2010)

That small island has been a nursing ground for several yrs. You catch it on the right, hot day with the wind blowing perfectly and it makes for a rather nice STENCH as well!!  I can't believe the nearby homeowners have not attempted to have them "relocated" somehow?


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## cheezman (Jul 4, 2011)

RELOCATED???? 
THEY SHOULD BE ALL SHOT AND KILLED !!!!
Another invasive species ruining OUR fishing waters !!!!
Time to put pressure on OUR elected officials...make them get off their dead asses and do something for a change....if we all do it something will happen. It's the only choice we have, if we wait for them to react it will be TOO LATE !!!
CALL YOUR FEDERAL REPS NOW !!!!


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## lakeslouie (Jan 11, 2006)

Too bad a bunch of fireworks set off there didn't accidently kill some


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## PolymerStew (Feb 17, 2009)

cheezman said:


> RELOCATED????
> THEY SHOULD BE ALL SHOT AND KILLED !!!!
> Another invasive species ruining OUR fishing waters !!!!
> Time to put pressure on OUR elected officials...make them get off their dead asses and do something for a change....if we all do it something will happen. It's the only choice we have, if we wait for them to react it will be TOO LATE !!!
> CALL YOUR FEDERAL REPS NOW !!!!



Overpopulating, dumping their crap all over, killing trees, polluting the water; what do they think they are, humans?

"Our waters"? So all water bodies are now exclusively for human use and any species that doesn't serve our purposes is a nuisance that must be eradicated? What is this the 19th century?

Invasive? Double-crested cormorants are native to Ohio. Their numbers in the past decades were lower than they are currently because they were persecuted and shot for being a nuisance. Pesticides also did a number on their populations as it did with many other birds (eagles, falcons, etc). Their numbers may have rebounded too successfully in some areas, but that doesn't mean we should go back to wholesale extermination.

http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Double-crested_Cormorant/lifehistory


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## LEADOFFMAN (Aug 9, 2004)

WOW!!! I remember, as a kid, back in the 70's camping out on that island. You would think the locals would keep that island CLEAN!!!


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## cheezman (Jul 4, 2011)

PolymerStew said:


> Overpopulating, dumping their crap all over, killing trees, polluting the water; what do they think they are, humans?
> 
> "Our waters"? So all water bodies are now exclusively for human use and any species that doesn't serve our purposes is a nuisance that must be eradicated? What is this the 19th century?
> 
> ...


OH I see....what we got here is a treehugger.....you a dues paying member of PETA too??....bet you voted for Obama !!!!


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## Skarfer (Jan 27, 2006)

Yep - I know that island well.......and the fishing stinks all around it. Or should I say lack of fish.........


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## RiverGuy (Jun 30, 2012)

cheezman said:


> OH I see....what we got here is a treehugger.....you a dues paying member of PETA too??....bet you voted for Obama !!!!




Hey Cheez, what he said was true as far as cormorants being a native species. I do agree they can be a nuisance, and it would be nice to see something done to control their population, but I fail to see what this has to do with Obama, or any of our views on the presidency.


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## buckzye11 (Jul 16, 2009)

I belive Stew simply stated some facts...
Eradication is not the answer, but 300-400 birds is the number i was told by a district 3 rep that inhabit only the PL's and nimi. Add up the others at mogadore and wingfoot... another 200 at least. So thats around 600 and counting birds in this tir-county area that individually can eat up to 2 pounds of fish per day. 2*600=1200 pounds a day... thats 108000 pounds in the Summer months... 54 tons of fish... my freezer has around 10 lbs of crappie filets. I found a graph to show the population increase. The graph is for the Lake Erie nests and dsen't include inland nests, also its 7 years old, so i can only assume it has gone up.
It just seems like thats a whole lot of fish i won't have a chance at catching, but maybe nature will take it's course and strike disease in the colony like in other cases of overpopulation. Or maybe they will open season on them... that gets my vote in this case.


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## PolymerStew (Feb 17, 2009)

cheezman said:


> OH I see....what we got here is a treehugger.....you a dues paying member of PETA too??....bet you voted for Obama !!!!


A treehugger and PETA member, no. A scientist, yes. I spent my first three years of undergrad as a water resources major at UW-Stevens Point. I later switched to polymer chemistry, but I still have a great interest in lake and river ecosystems and water quality. 

I believe that if the DNR does choose to take action to control the population of a species that is considered a "nuisance", they should be acting upon sound, scientific evidence, not a knee-jerk reaction by the public. And in the case of an indigenous species like the cormorant, culling the numbers or relocation is the answer, not eradication. Too many species were driven to extinction in the past because we considered them "pests".

A good portion of the diet of cormorants in this area is probably shad, not gamefish. I've also read that part of the reason for their population increase in the Great Lakes is the introduction of the alewife.


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## Dan44149 (Apr 12, 2011)

PolymerStew said:


> A treehugger and PETA member, no. A scientist, yes. I spent my first three years of undergrad as a water resources major at UW-Stevens Point. I later switched to polymer chemistry, but I still have a great interest in lake and river ecosystems and water quality.
> 
> I believe that if the DNR does choose to take action to control the population of a species that is considered a "nuisance", they should be acting upon sound, scientific evidence, not a knee-jerk reaction by the public. And in the case of an indigenous species like the cormorant, culling the numbers or relocation is the answer, not eradication. Too many species were driven to extinction in the past because we considered them "pests".


I understand where you are coming from. I also understand where the "Nuisance Crowd" is coming from. Species come and go, for different reasons. We haven't always been here, and we won't always be here. Dinosaurs weren't always here, but... if they were still here, you can bet your tree-hugging ass there would be a Federal Environmental Act that would protect them. It gives people a reason to pursue debate on a public level so they can feel important, and have something to "rally the troops behind" when elections roll around. 

Now let's be honest... Has the loss of a species ever really impacted the everyday lives of human beings? I can't recall any from my studies. 

Now the Apis mellifera, commonly known as the "honey bee," would cause the extinction of human life in a matter of years. There's a real fight for you to pursue.

Simple truth is... there is NO independent evidence of human beings contributing to mass extinctions. There is evidence from the tree-hugging side that humans are eradicators of multiple species, and there is evidence from the tree-cutting side that humans are not responsible for eradications... but NO evidence from independent investigations that point to either side of the argument.

Can we not agree that the picture of what these birds are doing to that area of the lake is nasty, and far more polluting to the water than any of the environmental restrictions placed upon boat owners or business owners that are looked at as "polluters" of the lake?



PolymerStew said:


> A good portion of the diet of cormorants in this area is probably shad, not gamefish. I've also read that part of the reason for their population increase in the Great Lakes is the introduction of the alewife.


I find it odd that you oppose humans messing with an eco-system in terms of "nuisances," yet you didn't make one objection to the "introduction" of a species. That's not the mind-set of a "scientist."


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## PolymerStew (Feb 17, 2009)

Dan44149 said:


> I find it odd that you oppose humans messing with an eco-system in terms of "nuisances," yet you didn't make one objection to the "introduction" of a species. That's not the mind-set of a "scientist."


I didn't take the opportunity of object to the introduction to invasives in this thread because that wasn't the issue being discussed here. I was addressing whether or not eradication of a native species that many people consider a nuisance is an acceptable solution. I did not say anywhere in there my opinions upon how invasive species should be handled. That is an entirely different issue that I have a very different opinion on. Please don't put words in my mouth and then take potshots at my credibility based upon that.

Regarding invasive species, I approve of their removal, particularly in instances where they are causing a major disruption such as in the case of zebra mussels, round goby, asian carp, snakehead, and so on. Unfortunately, eradication of invasive species is almost always impossible and massively expensive once they become established.

Regarding the cormorants pooing all over the place, yeah it gets pretty gross. Although, I do find "splat fishing" an effective method for locating channel cats. I've had the misfortune of getting too close to the cormorant roost when I was catfishing and getting pooped on, smells disgusting. But, the cormorants probably did this sort of roosting behavior long before we settled here. I still think there's better solutions like trying to deter them from roosting there to examine rather than taking the "kill them all" approach.


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## PolymerStew (Feb 17, 2009)

For those interested, here's a report conducted by the USGS (US Geological Survey) on the feeding habits of cormorants in the western basin of Lake Erie

http://www.glsc.usgs.gov/_files/reports/Cormorant.pdf


A few of the interesting bits:

By number gizzard shad, emerald shiner, round goby, and white perch were the most often consumed prey

By weight, the most numerous prey were gizzard shad, white perch, freshwater drum, and white bass

And in the conclusions:
"The data strongly support the notion that cormorants are opportunistic piscivores and not major predators of important recreational or commercial fishes."

"Cormorants have the ability to consume large quantities of fish, based upon their daily ingestion rate of 550 g/day (1.2 lbs)"


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## Dan44149 (Apr 12, 2011)

PolymerStew said:


> That is an entirely different issue that I have a very different opinion on. Please don't put words in my mouth and then take potshots at my credibility based upon that.


I didn't take a potshot at you. I simply pointed out that you attacked those that think the Cormorants are a nuisance and want them controlled but took it as someone attacking a species and wanting to wipe them out. I apologize if you took that as me putting words in your mouth. Did you not do the same to those that want them controlled by saying they wanted them extinct?



PolymerStew said:


> eradication of invasive species is almost always impossible and massively expensive once they become established.


So we are effective at driving native species to extinction, yet we can't drive an invasive species to extinction.

Noted.



PolymerStew said:


> Regarding the cormorants pooing all over the place, yeah it gets pretty gross. Although, I do find "splat fishing" an effective method for locating channel cats. I've had the misfortune of getting too close to the cormorant roost when I was catfishing and getting pooped on, smells disgusting. But, the cormorants probably did this sort of roosting behavior long before we settled here. I still think there's better solutions like trying to deter them from roosting there to examine rather than taking the "kill them all" approach.


I agree. I don't think we should "kill them all." I do think their population should be controlled. Every instance of where humans have stepped in to provide "protection" to an endangered species has resulted in an over-population of that species, and a new emergency to protect the species' that that species preys upon emerges.


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## RiverGuy (Jun 30, 2012)

Dan44149 said:


> I didn't take a potshot at you. I simply pointed out that you attacked those that think the Cormorants are a nuisance and want them controlled but took it as someone attacking a species and wanting to wipe them out. I apologize if you took that as me putting words in your mouth. Did you not do the same to those that want them controlled by saying they wanted them extinct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Dan, you make references to PolymerStew "attacking" those who oppose his view, but I fail to find evidence of this in his posts. And your assertion that "every instance of where humans have stepped in to provide protection to an endangered species has resulted in overpopulation of that species..." is debatable at best. Actually, it's simply untrue! I don't think California Condors will be "overpopulating" our skies anytime soon... I'm not arguing the senselessness of some protective measures (I'd like to see open season year round on Canada Geese - and cormorants for that matter). But you'd best get your facts straight before spewing complete nonsense - Trying to sell lies does not help your argument.


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## Dan44149 (Apr 12, 2011)

RiverGuy said:


> Dan, you make references to PolymerStew "attacking" those who oppose his view, but I fail to find evidence of this in his posts. And your assertion that "every instance of where humans have stepped in to provide protection to an endangered species has resulted in overpopulation of that species..." is debatable at best. Actually, it's simply untrue! I don't think California Condors will be "overpopulating" our skies anytime soon... I'm not arguing the senselessness of some protective measures (I'd like to see open season year round on Canada Geese - and cormorants for that matter). But you'd best get your facts straight before spewing complete nonsense - Trying to sell lies does not help your argument.


Okay so not EVERY instance, but a vast majority of them. Look at the protection of the American Alligator in Florida. They are now a nuisance and danger to society as they are heavily overpopulated.

I'm not making an argument to either side... just pointing out his arrogance towards other members wanting to see the Federal Regulations lifted so the population can be controlled.

"But you'd best get your facts straight" OR WHAT? WTF are you gonna do?

HE and I were having an adult conversation... 2 individuals with obviously higher intelligence and then you come into the conversation with ignorance. He gave me his view from his side of the fence, and I gave him my view from this side. I believe we both agree to disagree.... which is probably why we ended the conversation about it.

Your 2 cents is a hell of a way to introduce yourself to the forum.


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## PolymerStew (Feb 17, 2009)

Dan44149 said:


> So we are effective at driving native species to extinction, yet we can't drive an invasive species to extinction.


I think one of the issues with the species that become the most problematic invasives is that they are hardy, highly adaptable, and out-compete native species. This allows them to rapidly take root in new areas, but also makes them very difficult to eliminate once established. The best way to control the invasives is to prevent their spread in the first place or to quickly take action to remove them before they get established. 

As far as native species, some are more susceptible than others to population collapse. In the past, the drastic drop in cormorant numbers was due to a combination of pesticides (DDT) and being deliberately killed because they were regarded as a nuisance or fishermen thought they were competition. That makes me think that if we overreact, we could wipe them out. When I was a kid in Wisconsin, I'd actually get excited to see a cormorant because they were such a rare sight back then. 

I didn't think I was personally attacking anyone who disagreed with me here. People gave their views, I gave mine. I certainly didn't intend to make personal attacks against people expressing their views. For the most part, I thought this discussion has stayed more civil than many of the contentious issues on this board can get.

I also provided the link to the USGS study to maybe help address some of the concerns people have about cormorants gobbling up all the gamefish.


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## Dan44149 (Apr 12, 2011)

Well Polymer at least we can be civil. I don't disagree with you that they shouldn't be wiped out. I think that when we slap Federal Regulations on certain issues, we cause more problems than we fix. That is the point I was trying to make. From the OP's post, it would appear to me that the animals are causing an actual problem. Until we get some legislative action on the Federal level, there will be no action available for the State to take. That is where the problem comes in. The Federal Government shouldn't be able to legislate on a local level. That was not its intended purpose when it was instituted. I know this is borderline politics, and that is not what this site is about... but politics and the outdoors seem to go hand in hand anymore, since everything we do outdoors (fishing, hunting, etc) is legislated on many different levels. THAT is the point I was making. I did enjoy the good debate we had, and I see your side of the story. I really do. I don't see that they would gobble up the gamefish so much as I see it as a nuisance to see such a nice lakefront home in the background of the pic. If it were my home, the problem would have been solved long ago. I have the same problem with Canada Geese, also a protected animal for some reason or another. I can't go 10 feet in my backyard, fields, needless to say my pond... without stepping in 20 piles of goose ****... and they just keep coming. Have yourself a good evening, and a good weekend...


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## buckzye11 (Jul 16, 2009)

PolymerStew said:


> I also provided the link to the USGS study to maybe help address some of the concerns people have about cormorants gobbling up all the gamefish.


I saw that USGS study was done for Lake Erie, i wonder if the same applies for inland birds though. Ive seen first hand(now this might get some attention) a Cormorant eat a 12" Bass. And ive seen them each Perch as well. They don't swallow they fish until it returns to the surface, and if you see them surface and swallow in one fluid motion, many times there are orange fins going down the hatch... i know shad don't have orange fins. If you want to see it first hand just go to East rez. Cormorants like them some Perch.
To me, The Cormorants are like the guy with the two 5 gallon buckets filled to the brim with undersized fish paying no mind to limits or restictions.
The Osprey are back for good now too, but they are more of a selective harvest fisherman that dosent live on top of his outhouse.
I repsect all the views on this topic, but my mind has been set.


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## RiverGuy (Jun 30, 2012)

Dan44149 said:


> Okay so not EVERY instance, but a vast majority of them. Look at the protection of the American Alligator in Florida. They are now a nuisance and danger to society as they are heavily overpopulated.
> 
> I'm not making an argument to either side... just pointing out his arrogance towards other members wanting to see the Federal Regulations lifted so the population can be controlled.
> 
> ...




Dan, I'm sorry my 2 cents rubbed you the wrong way. I actually agree with your basic premise - I don't think cormorants (or Canada geese, among other species) require federal protection. I find them a nuisance as much as the next guy. I was simply making the point that it doesn't help your cause when you make broad generalizations to prove your point - when the facts are not there to support the statement. And I would still question your "vast majority" statement regarding protected species going on to become overpopulated. You gave one example - and certainly we can add the Canada goose and perhaps cormorants (although they do seem to be "overpopulated" in very localized instances). I'm sure there are others. But out of the hundreds/thousands of animals that have made the endangered/threatened species list, I would be amazed if most became or are on their way to becoming "overpopulated". Anyway, I'm sorry you find my post(s) to be ignorant... I'm not sure what I have stated that could possibly be construed as ignorant, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Have a great weekend.


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## RiverGuy (Jun 30, 2012)

buckzye11 said:


> I saw that USGS study was done for Lake Erie, i wonder if the same applies for inland birds though. Ive seen first hand(now this might get some attention) a Cormorant eat a 12" Bass. And ive seen them each Perch as well. They don't swallow they fish until it returns to the surface, and if you see them surface and swallow in one fluid motion, many times there are orange fins going down the hatch... i know shad don't have orange fins. If you want to see it first hand just go to East rez. Cormorants like them some Perch.
> To me, The Cormorants are like the guy with the two 5 gallon buckets filled to the brim with undersized fish paying no mind to limits or restictions.
> The Osprey are back for good now too, but they are more of a selective harvest fisherman that dosent live on top of his outhouse.
> I repsect all the views on this topic, but my mind has been set.




I agree. And whether the Cormorants are directly feeding on the game fish, or are feeding on the food supply of those game fish, they are eventually going to have a negative impact on fishing in waters they inhabit - not to mention the effect they clearly have on the trees/land in areas where they nest.


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## fish*FEAR*me (Mar 8, 2006)

i think that a couple of night shoots with a 12gauge would solve the problem.would you want all that poopy in the front yard of your $500,000 home/


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## PolymerStew (Feb 17, 2009)

buckzye11 said:


> I saw that USGS study was done for Lake Erie, i wonder if the same applies for inland birds though.


I haven't found studies on inland birds in my brief internet search. It'd be interesting to see how the fish consumed compare. 

I found a document published by the USDA called "Reducing Double-Crested Cormorant Damage in Ohio" available on the web.

http://www.fws.gov/midwest/MidwestBird/documents/OhioDCCOfinalEA.pdf

It summarizes a study that was done on the impact of the cormorant and examines proposed methods that can be used to control their numbers when they become problematic. Chapter 6 of the document also addresses questions raised by the public from both sides of the issue.


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