# Beware 100% Rant on Car Buying by Grumpy Old Man



## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

All I can say if I were a car salesman. I would certainly know my business more than the guys I dealt with today. Not going to mention brand or dealership as most of them deploy same tactics. Anyway I am presently trying to buy a compact SUV for the wife. Manager sends me a letter where I have her present car lease. I call and explain the parameters of what I would consider. In ending this lease and taking out a new one for an SUV. He is so understanding and so helpful over the phone. But of course I have to bring in the car and let them inspect it. Before he can discuss any kind of numbers. My question to him was the car has less than 6000 miles on it and it is still under warranty ? You have no idea what its worth ?

Against my better judgement I take car in. They take my keys for to test drive the car I have. Meanwhile I just have to test drive what I want to buy. I say why bother until the numbers can be agreed upon. They of course assure me that we will reach an agreement. Short test drive and back to dealership. First offer 435 a month. No, I told the manager in our phone conversation I wasn't going to do a deal with those kind of numbers. I mean why waste my time and theirs. I get up to go and ask for my keys. just like that lease number per moth falls to 325. Unimpressed still ask for keys. Finally they ask what kind of numbers you looking for. I respond 200's. The next offer 299. Said that sounds more 300ish a month to me. Then they ask would 250 a month be ok. I do some quick figuring ask what residual purchase price would be. They tell me and I put my little formula , that I use , to determine if good deal or not. The answer I came up with was awful close. I said at this point I will go home think it over. They say they don't even know if " boss " will agree to it. I think to myself why the h#$% not. Anyway sure enough they can't do deal with the numbers I asked for via phone call next day.

My credit score is as high as you can get. Because I do not take on bills I cannot pay. Why is car sales the only business transactions that you have to go thru all these shenanigans ? Eventually I will find what I want at the price I am willing to pay. But even though I am retired I hate wasting time this way. Anybody got a horse and buggy for sale ? Maybe I should buy a bull to pull the cart. That way I could decorate the roads with the same stuff that they use in selling cars.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

I never lease, but buy and its really painless. I go to Truecar.com, punch in the car I want give them my email and in a day or so I have 5 or so quotes from 5 different dealers. Take the lowest, walk in a buy the cars.

Leasing is a sucker bet IMO. How can the same vehicle be leased for $250/month to $435/month from the same dealer. Just based on you negotiating skills? Then when you turn it in ,they claim excess wear or some other excuse so you get screwed again?

Of course when I buy a car I buy it with the intention of keeping it at least 100,000 miles and probably 120-150,000. 6,000 miles would be 4 months.


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

Snake - Wish i was rich enough to do that. But I aren't. My little formula I mentioned. I multiply the monthly lease payment by the number of months leased. I then add the residual purchase price that you can purchase car for at end of lease. If a down payment is made that is also included.

If all the money totals to less than the original sticker price the deal is worth considering to me. I bought my 2012 Honda Pilot this way and it come in about 9000 under the sticker.

I also use same formula if buying outright with 5 year financing. Take 60 times the monthly payment plus down payment. I have leased cars with no down payment but never been able to buy outright with nothing down.

Usually it works out cheaper to lease then buy at end of lease. Not always but most of the time. I do agree about some the phony charges they try and stick it to you with. Some companies charge you an " acquisition" fee at start of lease and a "disposition" fee at end of lease.

I have almost never traded in no matter how I buy. "Trade in " should be honestly termed dealer gift.


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

Don't want to offend or question your process but in the vast majority of cases, leases are bad for the typical consumer. They are very popular with dealers so that alone tells you they are profitable. Having done sales for years I can attest that leasing equipment made us much more money than a sale. As a bonus, we usually wound up with a nice used piece to sell for top dollar. With vehicles, I found that lease customers would try so hard to not exceed their mileage/hour usage limits that they wouldn't drive/use the stuff as much as they should have. So they wound up paying for something they didn't use.
In my case, I keep vehicles for lengthy periods. My truck is a 2001 and has 186k miles. It's in good shape, runs and tows great and looks good. I've paid nothing per month on it for 10 years now. Apart from maintenance it costs me nothing. In fact, my three vehicles cost me nothing per month apart from operating costs. 
Unless you prefer to have a payment every month leases don't make sense for most people. Business can benefit from leases as that is an expense and can be written off. Not an asset so no tax burden.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Papa I usually have $2500 - $3500 In GM dollars to use. I get up to $500 / year on my GM credit cad and I usually accumulate up to the 7 years. So about every 7 years I cash them in and get a vehicle. Last time I got 1.9% for 5 years on the loan.


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## Nauti cat (Nov 30, 2009)

I hate auto shoping I look when the dealership is closed. The dealerships want to sell you whats on the lot not what I want ie 2dr 2wd 8' bed so I went on line found one. I then went to 3 Dodge dealerships told them what I wanted and they all said don't have can't find. I went to 4th dealership told him what I want said he has one NOT 4dr 4wd short bed I said you must not of heard me. He says I heard you this is as close as I can come, I say I will drive 140-50 mi to dealership sc Ohio and buy it good by. I got a call 2 days later you guessed it he found me a truck lets deal long story short got a good deal after I informed him no more b/s. I would lease only if I was buying at end of lease


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## nicklesman (Jun 29, 2006)

The only thing worse the buying a car is buying furniture!!!


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## smokingbarrel (Sep 28, 2014)

Buying tires is a real pain also specially when they toss in the added cost


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

I enjoy car shopping. The only thing I don't like is the 30-40 minutes of paperwork at the end of the deal. I do my research upfront via Kelly's Blue Book or Edmunds. Once I find out what I can afford and what I want I go to Truecar.com and solicit quotes. Pick the best of the bunch then go online and search the inventory within 100 - 150 miles of my house. Pull the vin numbers / dealer info and then I set the apt with the dealer. Tell them what car and what price I willing to pay.

It the past I used to enjoy taking my kids when they were little. It the negotiations dragged I 'd reach into my pocket and give both of my kids a sucker and tell them to go try out the seats in a pretty car while daddy was busy. That seemed to speed up the negotiating process quite a bit. 

I also go buy the cars for my mother, uncle, sister, sister-in-law, and son. We never do trade-ins. Only new cars I'm probably up to 25 or more purchases. The most I've done is three in a year.

One secret, never let the salesman know that you have fallen in love with a car. Once he knows that, you negotiating position is weakened. I tell the person that is buying the car up front, to be noncommittal when talking to the salesman.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

smokingbarrel said:


> Buying tires is a real pain also specially when they toss in the added cost


Try Tirerack.com


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

If you are going to buy the vehicle but do not like the price they give you, ask them to put everything on paper. Tell them to give you the "best deal" they can. If they give it to you, leave and go eat lunch or whatever. Give it 1/2 an hour or more. Write your bottom dollar on the quote by their price and tell them after evaluating the deal you've put your final offer on the quote. Give them the papers and then SHUT UP. They'll look at the number you've given them and start to argue. Don't back off. Say as little as possible and wait for them to work their way down to you. If you have given them a reasonable offer you'll win. Don't negotiate any further. If they don't do the deal, leave. If they want it bad enough they'll stop you and do the deal. 
It works.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

UFM82 said:


> If you are going to buy the vehicle but do not like the price they give you, ask them to put everything on paper. Tell them to give you the "best deal" they can. If they give it to you, leave and go eat lunch or whatever. Give it 1/2 an hour or more. Write your bottom dollar on the quote by their price and tell them after evaluating the deal you've put your final offer on the quote. Give them the papers and then SHUT UP. They'll look at the number you've given them and start to argue. Don't back off. Say as little as possible and wait for them to work their way down to you. If you have given them a reasonable offer you'll win. Don't negotiate any further. If they don't do the deal, leave. If they want it bad enough they'll stop you and do the deal.
> It works.


The secret to negotiations is not to talk...........The first one to talk loses.......


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

I think most of you missed my actual point. The fact that you have to negotiate a price at all is what bothers me. Why can't it be say like fish finders ? They advertise price you either pay it or keep looking for one that sells for a figure you can afford. 

Can you imagine if we had to buy our groceries this way ?


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

papaperch said:


> I think most of you missed my actual point. The fact that you have to negotiate a price at all is what bothers me. Why can't it be say like fish finders ? They advertise price you either pay it or keep looking for one that sells for a figure you can afford.
> 
> Can you imagine if we had to buy our groceries this way ?


Go to Truecar.com pick out a vehicle and you will get 4 or firm quotes from different dealers.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

papaperch said:


> I think most of you missed my actual point. The fact that you have to negotiate a price at all is what bothers me. Why can't it be say like fish finders ? They advertise price you either pay it or keep looking for one that sells for a figure you can afford.
> 
> Can you imagine if we had to buy our groceries this way ?


 Carmax...bought two vehicles from there...they DO NOT haggle...there is a price on everything up front and thats the best deal they give...bottom line...you want it you want it, you dont you dont...they dont care...


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

papaperch said:


> I think most of you missed my actual point. The fact that you have to negotiate a price at all is what bothers me. Why can't it be say like fish finders ? They advertise price you either pay it or keep looking for one that sells for a figure you can afford.
> 
> Can you imagine if we had to buy our groceries this way ?


You should try living in Europe! They dicker over everything there! 

$435/mo. for a lease?! What on earth were you trying to lease?


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## RedJada (Jun 21, 2009)

I have purchased a truck and a car in the past 3 years. Did all the leg work on line through emails. Had a set price and payment before I ever went to the dealership. Then, less than an hour once there and driving down the road. Same thing when getting a hotel. You walk in off the street and your going to pay top dollar. But sit in the parking lot and make a reservation on line and you'll save a few bucks.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

papaperch said:


> *I think most of you missed my actual point. The fact that you have to negotiate a price at all is what bothers me.*


I agree, I think it's all off track. I imagine if you wanted to know how everyone how else came to a purchase price and how they financed it you would have asked for that.
I'm with you on the fact it's a pain in the butt, I hate it. I don't care if you finance it or write them a check it's a joke. I've walked away from so many sales people because I couldn't get them to give me a price. I hate wasting my time going through all the BS.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

papaperch said:


> I think most of you missed my actual point. The fact that you have to negotiate a price at all is what bothers me. Why can't it be say like fish finders ? They advertise price you either pay it or keep looking for one that sells for a figure you can afford.
> 
> Can you imagine if we had to buy our groceries this way ?





crappiedude said:


> I agree, I think it's all off track. I imagine if you wanted to know how everyone how else came to a purchase price and how they financed it you would have asked for that.
> I'm with you on the fact it's a pain in the butt, I hate it. I don't care if you finance it or write them a check it's a joke. I've walked away from so many sales people because I couldn't get them to give me a price. I hate wasting my time going through all the BS.


Some people like to dicker, and some people don't.

I will say this, dickering is definitely in order for big ticket items that you don't buy very often. Papaperch mentioned buying groceries. Well, we buy those all the time, so the margins are a little more reasonable. But for those items you buy years apart, if you pay the price asked you're getting hosed!


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## Taco (Jan 4, 2009)

I've actually grown to enjoy the process and the negotiations. I've bought several vehicles and for a long time it wore me out too but I've gotten to the point where i feel like I'm better at the process than most salespeople. I have a couple things I've found for me that i just stick too. the one thing, more than any other, no matter how good a price you've negotiated the dealer could have always come down further. You don't even have to negotiate against yourself, just keep saying "no" and eventually you'll get down there. I can say "no" all day, doesn't bother me a bit.


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## HamiltonKdog (Oct 15, 2014)

Get their attention, walk in sit down whip out a pile of cash and I want this and will pay this, we got a deal or no? First answer better be yes or no or I get up and walk! Amazing how fast some of the sales managers can run! But I am usually 25% under sticker! Last 5 cars were done this and I was happy with my deals.

Too many ways for a dealer to make money if you play their game. I buy with the intention of running it until death do us part.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

I too enjoy the negotiations. It let's me always walk away feeling like I won something regardless of whether I did or not. I will negotiate on most everything. I just saved $100 on my cabin on Kelly's this year. Washers dryers, TV's whatever. 90% of the time it saves me some money. It's too bad the markup is so high they can afford to do that, but we are capitalists....

As far as taking the pain out, I agree with Snakecharmer 100%, TrueCar all the way. It lets you shop from your PC an narrow the playing field. You will be very close to what you want before you ever go to a lot.


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

LOL - it's funny how some people enjoy the deal. I've come to look forward to buying anything big ticket just for that exact reason. How do you truly set a price on something that costs $40,000. The manufacturers may know what that car costs to build but nobody else does. They tack on their percentage and go from there. Salesman will often inflate the price in anticipation of the negotiation. So the person who likes to work the deal will pay less than those who don't. Most people don't like to bargain and the dealers know that. They get fat off the sticker buyers and with deals with the negotiators.


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## nooffseason (Nov 15, 2008)

Kind of off topic; but not really I guess. If you're financing do not take the dealer's insurance products. GAP, Credit Life/Disability, and Extended Warranties. You can get these same insurance products from the financing bank or credit union for much less. For example.... dealer GAP is around $700-$800 most of the time. A Credit Union is usually at around $300-$400. Now the dealer will tell you their GAP policy is better and provides more benefit but I assure it isn't. 

Also, the very first question a dealer sales guy will ask you is....what kind of payment are you comfortable with? Right off the bat shoot down that thought process. Just tell them that doesn't concern you and you want to talk about the bottom line sale price


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

HamiltonKdog said:


> Get their attention, walk in sit down whip out a pile of cash and I want this and will pay this, we got a deal or no? First answer better be yes or no or I get up and walk! Amazing how fast some of the sales managers can run! But I am usually 25% under sticker! Last 5 cars were done this and I was happy with my deals.
> 
> Too many ways for a dealer to make money if you play their game. I buy with the intention of running it until death do us part.


If that is what works for you and you feel like you have gotten a good deal then that's all that matters. 
But believe me your cash is not nearly as valuable as someone who is financing.


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## monsterKAT11 (Jun 20, 2004)

The way I went with my last new vehicle purchase was through email negotiations, it helped to find a place that makes their money in quantity sales not quality. I had a price agreed on that I forwarded two 3 other places that couldn't match it. I was very happy with my deal.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

I am not going to lie....some of these tactics on here made some sense...or cents  but some of them sure did make me LOL.

I am going to be as honest as I can without offending some people but giving more insight than anything.....having been in the vehicle business for over 10 years I tend to think I have a pretty good threshold on the process.

Okay....so just like stated....why do we have too negotiate price when u don't on groceries and so forth.....well.....you don't? There is a suggested retail price on the vehicle due to what the market is...same as with groceries, gasoline and so forth. Customers choose to negotiate the process because it is available and want to save money if possible. I'm not arguing that fact but its a choice to negotiate price....everyone does research online anymore before going in to look at a vehicle....that's obvious on this thread.....almost all the time the prices are online or you can call in quick to get a price on the vehicle your inquiring in on.....if you don't like the price then don't buy it? If its $35,000 selling price and your wanting to be closer to $30,000 well your on the wrong vehicle or need to come up on price because if there were $5,000 mark up on vehicles I would be a very rich man and would have a 621 ranger in my garage right now.....if u guessed it your right no I don't. The average mark up on a used vehicle these days is literally $2,000 or less......most the time I can speak for especially at my dealership its less than that...believe it or not its true. We are in a town of 5,000 people and half have bad credit and half of that half are heroin addicts or some other drug. If we aren't priced aggressively online then people wont make the drive to our dealership to come buy or give us the opportunity to earn their business.

"Throw a wad of cash on the table and name your price".......what?!? Do you walk into a doctors office and do that or grocery story? That's the dumbest tactic id ever tell someone too do. If your in the dealership, test drove the vehicle , sitting down at the salesperson's desk to work numbers.....we are already thinking your a serious buyer to buy the vehicle...throwing money down on a desk will prove nothing. Congrats you have cash....now we are more annoyed with the "beating my chest like an ape I have money I'm better than you" tactic, as this will come off as ignorant and more annoying than anything. WE DONT MAKE MONEY UNLESS WE SELL A VEHICLE SO WE ARE SERIOUSLY ON YOUR SIDE BECAUSE YOUR THE *BUYER*!We are everyday normal people just like the person sitting on the other side of the desk trying to buy the vehicle!

BE HONEST!!!!!! You want honest answers from us and honest answers about the vehicle be honest with us....tell us where you want to be....tell us what you can afford! Tell us the use of the vehicle and its purpose! We are actually here too help! Surprisingly but its true. If your at a reputable dealer and with a guy or gal that's been in the business and you can tell right from the start if they truly are genuine then you will get an agreeable deal and actually have a great experience. 

Take a second and think really quick.....everytime you have negotiated....how many times have you fibbed.....seriously.....quick to look at the sales person and call us liars and look at us with a demeanor right off the start before even knowing us as a person...never know if u actually took the time to not worry about buying the vehicle for 5-10 minutes you may know the same people, both hunt, fish, other hobbies have in common or so forth.

This is long enough and I don't want a lashing for being honest but its the truth....like I said ive been doing this for a long time......dealt with every situation imaginable but when you do the right things, right things happen. Ive never had people leave unhappy....if we cant agree on a deal on a vehicle then guess what....we find a diff vehicle that fits the budget or purpose on what your needing. I do this for a living cause for some unknown reason I truly enjoy being able to help people. I have had people cry their eyes out at my desk or on my shoulder because we were able to actually get them in the vehicle they have always wanted....or a payment less than what they were hoping. Ive said this many, many times on here......I sell cars, we sponsor this site, we do the right things and Tom Sharpnack actually takes care of the customer and OGF members. Not giving me the opportunity to earn your business and for you to have an actual good experience isn't no ones fault but the buyer. I have been lucky enough to meet people through this business that I consider family now and wont call anyone else but me if there is a car issue or need.

Even if its not through me and you guys have bought sooo many vehicles why don't u have a salesperson by now who you know, like and trust and only go through them on your buying needs? 90% of the time or more if someone gives me the opportunity to earn their business they are my customers for life because they know how they will be treated everytime.....if you have bought 15+ vehicles and still haven't found someone maybe its you? You can come to me with your guard up all you want and not tell me anything but I guarantee you that if we agree on numbers your shaking my hand laughing your you know what off actually having a good buying experience.......

Just my two cents I spose...take it with a grain of salt or be mad cause I was honest but there are actually people out there who WANT to help.


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## All Thumbs (Apr 11, 2004)

I read this post yesterday and then later, my wife and I went to the grocery store. we went to the deli and ordered some sliced turkey for $3.99 per pound. "all we have is smoked, will that be ok?"  no thank you, we do not like the smoked. the lady then offered us some butterball turkey for $5.99 per pound, I said for $3.99 per pound? she said no, it was $5.99 per pound. I said for $3.99 per pound? she said ok and sliced us up a pound. I immediately thought of this thread.

all thumbs


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## Roscoe (Jul 22, 2007)

I like it when the salesman has to get the Boss to come in. I had already told the salesman what I would pay. So here comes the Sales Manager, sits down, gets in your face and starts the pressure sales talk. Well after he's half way through the talk I get up and go out to smoke.He looks stunned. I come back in and he's still there. This time I offer less than I did before. Every time he tries to get more I offer less. He wants to sell the truck and I know that so I offer one more offer and then get up and say I'm going back to the other dealer who was willing to work with me on another truck. I about hit the door and he stops me and says he will take the offer. OK but can you do more? Well I got 4 free oil changes to boot. He was a good guy.


Roscoe


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## Row v. Wade (Apr 27, 2004)

In November we had a deer commit suicide on our Town and Country and totaled it. We needed a car fast. We didn't want to buy a car from up here due to the brine solution that's used on the roads. Found a good used car at dealership in NC. Had pictures emailed. Haggled for a day. Wife and I flew in to Raleigh. Salesman picked us up. Looked over the car, test drove it. Bought it and headed North for a 10 hour drive. We'll do it again maybe this year. Daughter turns 16 in July. She'll be driving this one.


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

Or am fortunate enough that I get a supplier discount thru the company I work for from the big three (Ford, GM, and Chrysler). My wife and I buy mostly Jeep and RAM products. I think we pay 1% above invoice and there is no haggling on that price. That price is usually with in a couple thousand of the sticker price on a $40k ish vehicle. We always use the same sales person and have become friends over the years. Where they do make money is when you finance thru them or their recommended bank, they get a quarter point or so kickback if you don't payoff the loan with in the first year. He also told me their profit margin is much better on used vehicles vs new...


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Scum_Frog said:


> if you have bought 15+ vehicles and still haven't found someone maybe its you? You can come to me with your guard up all you want and not tell me anything but I guarantee you that if we agree on numbers your shaking my hand laughing your you know what off actually having a good buying experience........


If you were referring to me, I have bought 4 vehicles from one guy. I have referred many people to him. Unfortunately for him, GM quit making Pontiacs and Buicks are a little pricier than Chevy's so they don't fit into some of my families budget. There was another Chevy salesman that I bought two cars from. My wife is a Toyota person and do to turnover I've dealt with 4 different salesmen. 

You seem like a good guy and you gave some good information.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Snakecharmer said:


> If you were referring to me, I have bought 4 vehicles from one guy. I have referred many people to him. Unfortunately for him, GM quit making Pontiacs and Buicks are a little pricier than Chevy's so they don't fit into some of my families budget. There was another Chevy salesman that I bought two cars from. My wife is a Toyota person and do to turnover I've dealt with 4 different salesmen.
> 
> You seem like a good guy and you gave some good information.


hey man nooo not singling anyone out on that rant lol no one in specific at all it was open for everyone trust me! I figured I was opening myself up too comments anyways for speaking my mind that's why I wasn't trying to specify anyone "besides the throw a wad of cash on the desk" that one may of been specific'sh.....LOL


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## Roscoe (Jul 22, 2007)

Scum_Frog said:


> hey man nooo not singling anyone out on that rant lol no one in specific at all it was open for everyone trust me! I figured I was opening myself up too comments anyways for speaking my mind that's why I wasn't trying to specify anyone "besides the throw a wad of cash on the desk" that one may of been specific'sh.....LOL


 SF

That "Wad of Cash" deal works like a charm when Buying from others than Auto Dealerships. Ca$h is like bait. Set out some 100.00 dollar bills and her come the Sellers. Works every time.


Roscoe


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Roscoe said:


> SF
> 
> That "Wad of Cash" deal works like a charm when Buying from others than Auto Dealerships. Ca$h is like bait. Set out some 100.00 dollar bills and her come the Sellers. Works every time.
> 
> ...


Make sure your shots are up to date! And don't tell the wife or g-friend.LOL


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

Scum Frog- case in point. Don't know about your dealership but car salesmen around the Youngstown area don't stay at one dealership very much. The place where I leased this last car. I did not see one that looked remotely familiar. When I asked the sales manager admitted that there was a huge turn over in the staff. My Honda Pilot 2012 and my Honda Crosstour at the local Honda dealer were both sold to me by same salesman. When the lease was due to expire on the Crosstour. He inquired if I was going to keep it or turn it in. At that point I told him was going to keep Pilot and give to wife. Related to him I was going to go back to a pickup for myself. He asked new or used and my price range. When I told him he said we should be able to fix you up. Did not hear from him for like 3 weeks. So I went and leased this car the wife is driving now.

As I said I can't comment about your area. But could you point out how to maintain a relationship with a car salesman when they are so mobile. I can't believe it is primarily the customers fault when they have to seek someone that is willing to sell at a reasonable profit. When you do try and stay with one dealer its like they take you for granted.

I have found there are many kinds of dealers. Some are there to sell cars and others like to admire their inventory. If they can't sell at a maximum profit they let you walk. I have yet to deal with any dealer. That I cannot get a lower price than they quoted to my wife first. Before any haggling or negotiations start in earnest. When I was working full time . I often sent her to find what she wanted. I would go back without her to finalize deal.

As far as honesty on part of customer. I have no reason to lie to anyone ( well unless wife asks me if something makes her look fat ) about buying or selling anything. As I have told every salesman I have ever dealt with . " You may sell cars to make a living. But I don't buy cars to do the same. "


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## Roscoe (Jul 22, 2007)

Snakecharmer said:


> Make sure your shots are up to date! And don't tell the wife or g-friend.LOL


 SC

I can't tell them everything I do. Please keep it to yourself. I could get bounced!!

Thanks for reminding me.

Roscoe


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Scum_Frog said:


> hey man nooo not singling anyone out on that rant lol no one in specific at all it was open for everyone trust me! I figured I was opening myself up too comments anyways for speaking my mind that's why I wasn't trying to specify anyone "besides the throw a wad of cash on the desk" that one may of been specific'sh.....LOL


 All is good. Just like in insurance sales, auto salesman have a pretty high turnover in most dealerships. One salesman that I helped my girlfriend now wife buy a new car from I saw in a courtroom about two weeks later. I was in the jury box and he was on trial for bouncing checks. I thought boy that guy looks familiar after a while. I had to stop the trial after the opening argument and asked the judge if they could tell me the occupation of the accused. The judge asked why and I told him I had bought a car two weeks ago from a guy that looked like him. I got kicked off that case so fast my head was spinning.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

lotaluck said:


> If that is what works for you and you feel like you have gotten a good deal then that's all that matters.
> But believe me your cash is not nearly as valuable as someone who is financing.


My Mom ran into that buying her last car. Back when Saturns were still being made, a local dealer was offering what looked like a great deal. When my Mom told them she intended to pay cash, suddenly the price went up! She got ticked off and left, then called me to ask about it.

I told her I couldn't be sure, but my guess would be that they were self-financing or had a deal with a local bank or credit union for a kick back if the dealer funneled business their way. She still bought the car for cash since we couldn't find a better deal anywhere else. She was getting up in years and just didn't want to be bothered w/monthly payments.

Scum Frog, I appreciate your comments. You sound like a good guy to deal with. But, I'm sure a lot of us have had some adventures at dealerships. 

Nothing frosts my pumpkins faster than the comment, "What do I have to do to put you in a car today!" Several obscene possibilities spring to mind, but I restrain myself! And I have heard that comment several times. 

Also, the monthly payment is fine as far as it goes, but it's only half the equation. With finance options as long as 72, or even 78 months available, the total cost of the loan is the major factor. You could wind up like one of those folks who "rent to own", and pay $3000 for a $500 television!


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

I've had great experiences at dealerships and have had some really bad ones .... Like one guy that told my wife to come back with her husband, or one manager that belittled his sales woman in front of us, the dealer that tried to hide rebates and covered with....oh....oh.....this just came across the fax when questioned on it, the salesman that kept showing us trucks that were more expensive/had features we didn't want, or the dealer that tried racking on extra fees on a lease return after we declined to get another vehicle from them.

Won't be going back to any of those dealerships.....even if it was years and years ago..may go back to the dealerships that treated us well. Bad word travels much faster than good. 

Last car was bought in a pressure situation after an accident - found the best deal (used) on cars.com and picked it up. Salesman was a sleeze ball, dealership was ok - most likely won't go back there, but got what we needed at a good price.

Scum Frog, you seem to be a great guy, and sell at/for a good outfit, but you can't overlook the bs many of us have been given from other dealerships and salesmen. Games that are played with "managers", the pressure up-sells, fast talking in the finance office to sell high profit add-ons, not following up on promises made before the sale....you have a tough job made tougher by less than honest people/practices.


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## nooffseason (Nov 15, 2008)

buckeyebowman said:


> My Mom ran into that buying her last car. Back when Saturns were still being made, a local dealer was offering what looked like a great deal. When my Mom told them she intended to pay cash, suddenly the price went up! She got ticked off and left, then called me to ask about it.
> 
> I told her I couldn't be sure, but my guess would be that they were self-financing or had a deal with a local bank or credit union for a kick back if the dealer funneled business their way. She still bought the car for cash since we couldn't find a better deal anywhere else. She was getting up in years and just didn't want to be bothered w/monthly payments.
> 
> ...



Let me tell you some numbers that I think will blow your mind. As Scumfrog mentioned, car dealers really don't make a ton of cash on the purchase price. The financing is where it's at. As well as the insurance add-ons I already mentioned. 

A dealer will usually have several lenders they work with for financing. In the lending world, this is called 'indirect lending' when the deal is closed at the dealer. This lending has become increasingly competitive over the years. The 'kick-back' you speak of is called the dealer 'reserve' paid by the lender to dealer. Nowadays it's not uncommon for the dealer to get 4-5 % of the purchase price. That, along with the $400-$500 they're upselling a GAP policy and at least $1000 on an extended warranty, you can see the actual purchase price is not where they make all their money.


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## Tbomb55 (Nov 27, 2008)

Shad Rap said:


> Carmax...bought two vehicles from there...they DO NOT haggle...there is a price on everything up front and thats the best deal they give...bottom line...you want it you want it, you dont you dont...they dont care...


I think this discussion is about new vehicles.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Tbomb55 said:


> I think this discussion is about new vehicles.


Doesnt matter...new, used...same concept is used when buying them...and thats what the thread is about...the BS they put you through...was just stating that carmax doesnt haggle and there is a sticker price on everything...unlike some of these dealers where no price is on the vehicle and when you walk in they say 'what do you want to pay a month'?..BS


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## Tbomb55 (Nov 27, 2008)

Shad Rap said:


> Doesnt matter...new, used...same concept is used when buying them...and thats what the thread is about...the BS they put you through...was just stating that carmax doesnt haggle and there is a sticker price on everything...unlike some of these dealers where no price is on the vehicle and when you walk in they say 'what do you want to pay a month'?..BS


 I get ya though I'm not a big fan of Carmax's no haggle price. Their prices are too high in my opinion. Check out cargurus when you get a chance.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Last car I bought I had a rookie salesman. He was a little afraid to take my offer to the sales Mgr. The Sales Mgr came out to see me to close the sale. He gave me his price. I said no. He said this salesman really needs to make a sale you can help him so much if you bought this car....I chuckled to myself and said "Sure I want to see the guy make a sale too. He's a nice guy and I think he has a future in this business. I 'm ready to buy, just reduce your price $400 and your salesman will be happy. If you don't want him to make the sale just say so and I'll walk away".
The Sales Mgr about choked on his coffee but I got the deal I wanted and his salesman was happy. I think that was his 1st sale ever.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Strictly 100% out of curiosity what do you think on the average a sales person gets paid per deal? I'm only asking because ive had customers tell me that a dealership probably makes 10-15k per deal and it made me laugh haha.....just wondering is all.


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

Seriously, you people are killing me. You guys sure know how to stick it to them sales managers don't ya. There is not a reputable dealership around that would do business with someone that talked down or tried to degrade them or their employees. Believe me they are not as desperate as most here would like to believe.


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

Scum_Frog said:


> Strictly 100% out of curiosity what do you think on the average a sales person gets paid per deal? I'm only asking because ive had customers tell me that a dealership probably makes 10-15k per deal and it made me laugh haha.....just wondering is all.


I think the sales people are underpaid for the most part. There are huge margins in new car sales but most if any will ever see or know the true numbers. Small local dealership close to me just put up a new 3.5 million dollar building. That's not happening without some serious margins. Heck why go through the hassle if there is not some serious cash to be made?


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## Taco (Jan 4, 2009)

Scum_Frog said:


> Strictly 100% out of curiosity what do you think on the average a sales person gets paid per deal? I'm only asking because ive had customers tell me that a dealership probably makes 10-15k per deal and it made me laugh haha.....just wondering is all.


I'll take a stab at it... 100% guessing I'm gonna say about $300 per car. You can make a living selling cars but not a lot of guys start out selling and end up owning the dealership but it happens. Sell three cars a week and you'll make about $45k a year. 5 cars a week and you're really earning your check and pulling in about $65k. The ceiling is a little higher than that though, I'm guessing, when goals and bonuses are figured in.

close?


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

I have some reservations about TrueCar ... the way they determine the cost is supposedly based on what people in the same general area paid for a similar vehicle, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good deal, or that it's every car sold, it's just what they have in their database ... it's occurred to me that if every car company put up 5-10 million to sponsor, as a group, that "service" to tell you what a "good price" is, they could dictate prices even more than they do already ... just a thought


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

So after a little cash last week








I need a new vehicle.

It is totaled and going to get about 8k for it. It was paid off and hate the idea of having a payment. I paid cash for it and was really going to run it untill it died. Had 130k on the honda so had a ways to go. Well it died early in a head on colision that was not my fault. I really need something to haul a boat but everything I see is high miles in the 14 to 16k range. If you want something with low miles with all wheel drive or 4 wheel looking at around 20.

Just about to get married and we are looking at houses. So I don't really know what to do.

I can afford the payment but like to keep that cash free for a house. But need something dependable to get to work and the lake. Idk what to do.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

scum frog, Ill guess about $400 before taxes and everything for the salesman, and then about $2000 for the dealership. for a sticker priced vehicle of 34,000 that actually sells for 29,500. im guessing the dealership actually paid 27,000 for a vehicle that i paid 29,500 for, that stickered for 34,000. is that close? this is for a new 4x4 silverado, 2015.

scum frog i appreciate your input on this thread, it was interesting to read what you have to say and youre not going to upset anyone.

the thing that is frustrating about buying a vehicle is that it is just so vague as far as price goes. i always feel like, well could i have "done better"? what is "fair"? in 2003 i bought a new vehicle for 18,500 and the young salesman let it slip that he himself could have bought that truck from his employer/dealership for 15,500...

that is why people dont like it and sometimes get defensive. im 44. my recent purchase was the second most expensive thing i have ever bought in my life and there is no "set price" on it???

its the vagueness....trusting someone without your interests that they will "get you a good deal"....

i really have a hard time trusting anyone at all....there are very few people that i trust.

so just so you know that is where the consumer defensiveness comes from, at least from someone like me. its not personal. its a ton of money, maybe several years of savings for someone. its hard just to throw all that cash down.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Completely agree with the defensiveness. I am the same way when it comes to spending money on any other purchase! That's what I'm different when it comes to being in sales. I won't take advantage of someone. For the sheer reason I'm hoping to turn them into a life long customer who continues to purchase from me and sends there friends and family too me. I like being that guy. That's one of the main reasons why I'm thankful for being successful in a VERY judgmental industry who 99% brought it on themselves lol I spent a lot of my life with my grandmother because my parents built a house directly behind them on the farm and I'm very "old school" when it comes to respect and honesty. I still work on a handshake. As far as the pay goes. Surprisingly the dealership most the time on a reputable dealer and assuming the customer has worked the price down some or the dealership hasn't already set a sale price.....the dealer won't make much on the initial sale "I'm speaking on new vehicle terms" The manufacturer has set amounts per vehicle that the dealer will receive quarterly. But trust me. It isn't a lot. Wayyyyyyy less than what you could imagine in selling a $45k vehicle. As far as salesman goes the amount they make varies on which brand they sell. Gm does spiffs thank gosh which helps a TON for us guys. It added another roughly 20% too my income again each year so far in bonuses which is nice because it's not off the customer. That's why I am all about volume not gross. I'd rather make my income off GM not off the customer. Makes life easier. Average sales person across the board will make 36-50k a year. A good one will make 60-75. A great one will pull in close too 100k or more. It's a great profession to be in if you take time to do the right things.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

nooffseason said:


> Kind of off topic; but not really I guess. If you're financing do not take the dealer's insurance products. GAP, Credit Life/Disability, and Extended Warranties. You can get these same insurance products from the financing bank or credit union for much less. For example.... dealer GAP is around $700-$800 most of the time. A Credit Union is usually at around $300-$400. Now the dealer will tell you their GAP policy is better and provides more benefit but I assure it isn't.
> 
> Also, the very first question a dealer sales guy will ask you is....what kind of payment are you comfortable with? Right off the bat shoot down that thought process. Just tell them that doesn't concern you and you want to talk about the bottom line sale price


Yep...I ask what is the out the door price is all in....


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Scum_Frog said:


> Completely agree with the defensiveness. I am the same way when it comes to spending money on any other purchase! That's what I'm different when it comes to being in sales. I won't take advantage of someone. For the sheer reason I'm hoping to turn them into a life long customer who continues to purchase from me and sends there friends and family too me. I like being that guy. That's one of the main reasons why I'm thankful for being successful in a VERY judgmental industry who 99% brought it on themselves lol I spent a lot of my life with my grandmother because my parents built a house directly behind them on the farm and I'm very "old school" when it comes to respect and honesty. I still work on a handshake. As far as the pay goes. Surprisingly the dealership most the time on a reputable dealer and assuming the customer has worked the price down some or the dealership hasn't already set a sale price.....the dealer won't make much on the initial sale "I'm speaking on new vehicle terms" The manufacturer has set amounts per vehicle that the dealer will receive quarterly. But trust me. It isn't a lot. Wayyyyyyy less than what you could imagine in selling a $45k vehicle. As far as salesman goes the amount they make varies on which brand they sell. Gm does spiffs thank gosh which helps a TON for us guys. It added another roughly 20% too my income again each year so far in bonuses which is nice because it's not off the customer. That's why I am all about volume not gross. I'd rather make my income off GM not off the customer. Makes life easier. Average sales person across the board will make 36-50k a year. A good one will make 60-75. A great one will pull in close too 100k or more. It's a great profession to be in if you take time to do the right things.


Great comment! I was in sales for a long time. Fine wine for a great portion of it. My credibility w/the customer meant something to me! For the latter part of it I worked wholesale, selling to fine wine shops and upscale restaurants.

I can't tell you how elated I was when a customer accepted my recommendation without tasting the wine! He had come to realize that I wasn't BS'ing him. That my taste could be trusted. I was a foot in the air walking out of that store! 

The best guys will be honest with you. I hate shopping for vehicles as much as anyone, but I've been taken care of a time or two!


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

baitguy said:


> I have some reservations about TrueCar ... the way they determine the cost is supposedly based on what people in the same general area paid for a similar vehicle, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good deal, or that it's every car sold, it's just what they have in their database ... it's occurred to me that if every car company put up 5-10 million to sponsor, as a group, that "service" to tell you what a "good price" is, they could dictate prices even more than they do already ... just a thought


this is what quickly happened to the original internet car price sites that once showed dealer cost (before that you could buy a book), msrp, holdback, secret deals, etc info. they all went to a "good price" model as the megadealers and manufacturers started advertising there. they all sold out for advertising $$.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

just realized this is an over 2-year old thread.... don't do that to us.


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

Snakecharmer said:


> Yep...I ask what is the out the door price is all in....


Complains about old threads getting rebooted in the Market... reopens a thread over 2years old.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

In my honest opinion… I don’t even think that “negotiating” a price of a new car even exists anymore… that was something that died years and years ago.... anymore, it seems like a dealer pretty much agree with almost any reasonable price that I offer… They make their money either way… They just hide it somewhere in the contract in fees or interest charges… You may think you’re getting a good deal… But you’re getting hosed buying a new car no matter what you think. try calling the dealership, stating what you want, and then ask them what the interest rate will be on the car...You will be on the phone for three hours talking with them ...And you’ll never get a straight answer... ever... seems like a simple question , just asking the interest rate… But they will never ever give you a straight answer

papa perch....that little “formula “ That you used to negotiate leasing a car… I think it is very cute and somewhat humorous......lol...If you even think for one second that any dealership doesn’t have every single word or action that you make already calculated before you walk on to their lot... you’re dreaming man... you are absolutely not in charge when you are buying a new vehicle ...They might make you feel like you are in charge… LOL… But you’re definitely not


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

KaGee said:


> Complains about old threads getting rebooted in the Market... reopens a thread over 2years old.


Says the Mod that reopens a 9 year old Potato soup recipe?


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

When they can nock off 10K or 12 K off a truck and still make money is all that needs to be said!!!!!!


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## bountyhunter (Apr 28, 2004)

UFM 82 has the very best way, bought lot of cars this way, some one will meet your price. walk ,wait for the call.


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

Back in 2015 me and my wife bought a brand new Jeep Renegade. We went online to look at stock at local dealers. Stock was pretty slim in my area as these were brand new models in 2015. A big dealer right down the road said they had 3 in stock. We called and the salesman said they had them on the lot. We got his name and headed down there to look at them. To our surprise, we show up and not only did they not have them on the lot, they tried to sell us a 2014 Jeep Patriot. To say I was upset was an understatement. The salesman was some punk kid that couldn't stay off his phone long enough to explain why he lied to us.

So, we headed out to a small Jeep dealership about 20 minutes away. They had 2 Renegades on the lot. We test drove one and my wife really liked it. Our salesman was the owner of the dealership. He was a very nice guy and we were glad we bought from them. I would definitely buy from them again, but because of their size they have limited stock so that may not be an option. 

Honesty is of upmost importance to me. The owner of the small dealership was very honest with us and made us feel very comfortable. He even gave me a beer while all the paper work was being filed. The big dealer was just trying to sell us what they wanted us to buy and lied to get us on the lot. This is why I don't even go to the big dealer to have any service done on our Jeep or my Ram. Its literally 2 miles down the road but I will go 20 minutes away to get them worked on. 

We also always finance through our local community bank. We get pre-approved before we even go looking and always get better rates than what the dealerships are offering. We just have the dealer write up the invoice, take it to our bank, they cut us a check for the dealership, and we drive off with the car.


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## Evinrude58 (Apr 13, 2011)

My BIL has sold cars for 40 years in England and averages (with the exchange rate) 100k plus. He is good and has had some customers buy from him the beginning. Would love to find someone like that here. I haven't bought a new car in 30 years. I prefer to buy 2 years old as by then if there are problems with the model they have usually found them and the fact that most cars seem to lose 30-40% of their value in the first 2 years. In the last 14 years I have bought 9 vehicles and so far have not been impressed with any of the dealerships and salesmen I have dealt with in Ohio. None of the cars were bought at one dealership because each time ( maybe 7 times)I wandered their lot was never approached by a saleman, even though I would pass them as I headed across to where the cars were. Have checked cars out online but didn't mention it and the price was $500 more on the lot. Have been to a couple dealers where I don't see why they have salesmen as with every little tweak to the deal they have to run to the sales manager, speed up the process and let me deal with the person who can actually make the deal. I always go the first time to the dealer just to see what they have and maybe to test drive something if I have never been in a certain car/suv before and always state that, then come the line "What can I do to get you in to a car today" which then just pisses me off as that means they aren't listening. A year ago my wife and I both were looking for vehicles at the same time had a sales manger that wouldn't listen to me when I told him I wouldn't be buying until I had completed selling a house we had. He pushed and pushed the today crap and I walked. a month later house was sold and within 2 weeks we both got vehicles, his pushing cost the dealership 2 sales. Also on the not listening why is it when I tell them I want a vehicle between 15 and 20k they insist on trying to show me ones that run 25-30k. Still haven't figured out how I went to my bank and was given an interest rate and the dealer beat it. I then called the bank and said what rate the dealer offered so the bank gave me a lower rate then that and then the dealer made a call and came back even lower. Then found out we were talking to the same bank. Seems to me the bank would make more money by giving me the rate they gave the dealer and not paying them a kick back. Truthfully think I would rather go through shoulder surgery again than buy a car. Rant over.


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## 5card (Aug 19, 2018)

Best place to buy a car Blue Knob in Pa. Whe you are driving and it does not matter where or what state
see how many Blue Knob stickers and license plate holders you see. The price is the price and it is the best price you will find unless from you anunt mini


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