# Neatest thing I have seen in muzzleloading, maybe ever.



## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)




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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Have mixed feelings about this. Agree that it is an awesome feature and curious if other manufacturers will take suit (wonder if traditions teaming up with federal will not allow competitors for some time using same charging system) but also kind of takes away from the spirit of using a muzzleloader. For those who want to still shoot a hawken or old school muzzleloader still have that option I suppose.


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## FISHIN 2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Bad part is you are bound by buying their accessories to use in that gun only, only thing that's interchangeable would be the sabots and primers
.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm satisfied with the inline, never messed with ml's till the past few years to extend the season if needed, I think a much shorter learning curve for me.... I could see it catching on in the future..... but not needed by me


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

The vast majority of hunters that shoot muzzleloaders should n't be anywhere near them, they have very little knowledge and it is dangerous. This new system product removes most of the user error potential. Is it for everybody, nope, but for most it is nice idea.


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## garhtr (Jan 12, 2009)

Looks like a great idea and I'm sure it'll catch on but for me the satisfaction of mzlding season is hunting with more traditional gear but to each his own.
 Something about dropping that charge in the breech makes me laugh at the phrase Muzzleloader.
Good luck and Good hunting


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Lundy said:


> The vast majority of hunters that shoot muzzleloaders should n't be anywhere near them, they have very little knowledge and it is dangerous. This new system product removes most of the user error potential. Is it for everybody, nope, but for most it is nice idea.


Back in the day I used to shop at a local sporting goods store. One day, a guy was there looking at some used ML's! He picked one up, cocked the hammer, and pulled the trigger. He sent a bullet up through the ceiling into the second floor and out the roof! The idiot who turned the gun in left a charge in the barrel and a cap on the nipple! The idiot who ran the store didn't bother checking the gun for either! That's when I decided to stop shopping there! 



garhtr said:


> Looks like a great idea and I'm sure it'll catch on but for me the satisfaction of mzlding season is hunting with more traditional gear but to each his own.
> Something about dropping that charge in the breech makes me laugh at the phrase Muzzleloader.
> Good luck and Good hunting


Yes, but you still have to shove the bullet down the barrel! A few years back my buddy bought a Traditions "Strikerfire" ML. I couldn't believe how light it was, yet how little it kicked. A game changer. Now here comes this. It's kind of amazing how an outfit named "Traditions" is the most innovative one out there!


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

This disqualifies the rifle as a muzzle loader, it becomes a regular cartridge. Read the regulations for using a muzzle loader.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

Hopefully it is only legal during shotgun season.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Popspastime said:


> This disqualifies the rifle as a muzzle loader, it becomes a regular cartridge. Read the regulations for using a muzzle loader.


Not sure if it will or not!
Will be interesting to see how ODNR rules on it since their definition of a ml does not state the powder charge has to be loaded through the muzzle of the bbl.

*Muzzleloader deer season: What is a muzzleloader*
12/30/2019 Division of Wildlife
*Muzzleloader deer season: What is a muzzleloader*

*By definition, a muzzleloader is any firearm that you load through the muzzle of the barrel. This can be a rifle, shotgun, pistol, or revolver. Early muzzleloaders used a matchlock and wheel lock, but today the majority or muzzleloaders in use are in-line, caplock (or percussion lock), and flintlock rifles. Muzzleloaders are often referred to as “blackpowder rifles” since they still use blackpower while other firearms use modern ammunition with smokeless powder. Legal hunting implements for Ohio’s Muzzleloader season are muzzleloading rifles .38 caliber or larger and muzzleloading shotguns 10 gauge or smaller using one ball per barrel. Legal archery equipment may also be used during this season.*


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## joekacz (Sep 11, 2013)

IMO,IMHO. These season's all started as "Primitive Weapon" season.A way to lengthen the deer season and give opportunity to "Purist's" to hunt deer the "Ole Fashion" way.To me all of this has become marketing "Crap"!! The challenge of hunting like the pioneer's in these extra season's are GONE.If it were up to me you could only use all of these gadget's during the regular firearm's season ONLY.Other than my "Little"rant,I think the primer stick's out to far,must be a reason for it.?.


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## dugworm (May 23, 2008)

Hmmm? Not interested.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

it caught my attention but my hearts kind of set on the new cva 45 caliber with the new 45 caliber power belt bullets. I do like the advantage of loading the charge from the rear. plus the primer is right on top of the powder charge. shouldn't have to worry about misfires as much.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

I, like Lundy, find this to be quite interesting and an attractive option that i will probably own (along with every other generation muzzle loader I own from the last 45 years), and I also find a lot of the discussion here quite humorous. One of the great things about products like this is that no one is forced to buy and use it if you don't want to, and the fact that others might buy and use it will have zero impact on your hunting experience. Out west it is not uncommon to see a guy hunting elk with a .25-06 and his hunting partner might be carrying a .338 Lapua and no one cares, at all. Why would anyone care how the next guy puts a charge in his muzzle loader?


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

Just think, us poor hunters next door in PA have to use a flintlock in our late season! Not even a percussion riffle! But this new one might be legal for our early deer & bear season!

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

The fact remains it's not a legal shooter for the muzzle loader season. After that I don't care if you shoot sticks out of it..lol. You can own and buy what ever you like but the fact is the muzzle loader is limited no mater how you configure it.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

You may be right Pops, but again, according to ODNR's definition of a ml, think we may have to wait and see what their 'facts' are.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

That doesn't interest me at all. I see many disadvantages to that system. Disadvantage #1-How do you tweak your powder loads with those sticks? I'll stick with my $219 CVA Optima that shoots straight and has killed a pile of deer.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

the bullet is being loaded down the barrel. only the powder charge is being inserted from the rear using a black powder substitute. so by definition the gun is being loaded down the barrel. I see no reason it wouldnt be legal. I'm sure they researched to see if it would be accepted as a muzzle loader before it went into production. or I would think so anyway.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Muddy said:


> That doesn't interest me at all. I see many disadvantages to that system. Disadvantage #1-*How do you tweak your powder loads with those sticks?* I'll stick with my $219 CVA Optima that shoots straight and has killed a pile of deer.


As convenient as it seems it would be, without further research, that was my first thought as well.
Now, if they figure out a way for the shooter to be able to tailor the charge...AND...be able to use Blackhorn 209 in the sticks...what a setup that will be.
Can surely see that possibly happening in the near future in which the sticks are sold empty having some sort of easy self sealing end.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Popspastime said:


> The fact remains it's not a legal shooter for the muzzle loader season. After that I don't care if you shoot sticks out of it..lol. You can own and buy what ever you like but the fact is the muzzle loader is limited no mater how you configure it.


It's loaded through the muzzle. So it will be legal.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

If you click on ODNR website, you get what I copy/pasted and posted earlier:

*Muzzleloader deer season: What is a muzzleloader*
12/30/2019 Division of Wildlife
*Muzzleloader deer season: What is a muzzleloader*

*By definition, a muzzleloader is any firearm that you load through the muzzle of the barrel. This can be a rifle, shotgun, pistol, or revolver. Early muzzleloaders used a matchlock and wheel lock, but today the majority or muzzleloaders in use are in-line, caplock (or percussion lock), and flintlock rifles. Muzzleloaders are often referred to as “blackpowder rifles” since they still use blackpower while other firearms use modern ammunition with smokeless powder. Legal hunting implements for Ohio’s Muzzleloader season are muzzleloading rifles .38 caliber or larger and muzzleloading shotguns 10 gauge or smaller using one ball per barrel. Legal archery equipment may also be used during this season.*

Note the date of *12/30/2019* at the very top.

Reading directly out of a copy of the Ohio Hunting and Trapping Regs booklet in the 'legal definitions' section dating Sept 1 2019 - August 31 2020, it is different than what the above copy and pasted ODNR website reads.
Booklet reads as follows:
Muzzleloading rifle and Muzzleloading shotgun means a primitive weapon that is loaded exclusively from the muzzle *and has a permanent breech plug. *When the breech plug is removed the gun is rendered inoperable, or incapable of firing modern-day ammunition.

The obvious difference is the breech plug addition.

Sooo...
Just got off the phone with ODNR headquarters.
Had a very good conversation with a supervisor there about what constitutes a ml as far as they are concerned...and...what's on their website.
Seems the regs booklets were amended to include the breech plug addition years back when laws changed legalizing inlines. Apparently there was an oversight on changing their online site.
That will be changed.

As to the Traditions Nitro...the ODNR supervisor had not yet seen it.
While we were talking, he viewed its operation online.
Since there is no breech plug, the way current law is, the Nitro is not legal in Ohio. But he was very interested and said with the anticipation of their office being flooded with calls, was going to forward all info regarding the Nitro to their 'law' dept for review.

Bottom line is,as of now, Popspastime is correct...the Nitro is NOT currently legal to deer hunt with during ml season.


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

fastwater said:


> If you click on ODNR website, you get what I copy/pasted and posted earlier:
> 
> *Muzzleloader deer season: What is a muzzleloader*
> 12/30/2019 Division of Wildlife
> ...



I knew you could handle it FW....


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Thing is, Ohio bowhunters weren't allowed to use mechanical releases for quite a few years. When Sunday hunting was OK'd, you had to have X amount of acres of private land to do that. Pistol caliber ammo could only be used out of pistols. Eventually, things got straightened out, and reasonableness was achieved. 

Just give it a little time, and this new system will be an approved hunting method.


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## jackal_727 (Feb 16, 2010)

$26.95 for a ten pack? Plus the cost of your primer and sabot. That's probably over three dollars per shot. That'll be a nope for me.

That said I assume this will be legal in ohio by next season, if not, the season after. No real reason it shouldn't be. You still gotta load your "powder", place your primer, and load your sabot down the barrel. The only real upside I see to this system is that wet powder/pellets would be a thing of the past. Other than that...


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

$3.00 a shot would kinda take the fun out of it. Makes .308 look like a bargain per shot.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

fastwater said:


> If you click on ODNR website, you get what I copy/pasted and posted earlier:
> 
> *Muzzleloader deer season: What is a muzzleloader*
> 12/30/2019 Division of Wildlife
> ...


There could be a technicality raised with what you highlighted in bold type. If I can remove a breech plug it is, by definition, impermanent! Something permanent cannot be removed except by destroying it. True, the gun is rendered inoperative with the removal of the breech plug, but the same is considered true when then is no primer in the breech. A ML rifle is considered "unloaded" at the time.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

buckeyebowman said:


> There could be a technicality raised with what you highlighted in bold type. If I can remove a breech plug it is, by definition, impermanent! Something permanent cannot be removed except by destroying it. True, the gun is rendered inoperative with the removal of the breech plug, but the same is considered true when then is no primer in the breech. A ML rifle is considered "unloaded" at the time.


Pointed the same thing out when I was talking to the supervisor at ODNR. According to their law dept., they are defining a 'permanent' breech plug not in a sense that it cannot be removed but that the breech plug has to be installed to be fired.
Hence the following sentence:
"When the breech plug is removed the gun is rendered inoperable, or incapable of firing modern-day ammunition."


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

fastwater said:


> See your point and brought the same thing up when I was talking to the supervisor at ODNR.
> According to their law dept., they are defining a 'permanent' breech plug not in a sense that it cannot be removed but that the breech plug has to be installed to be fired.
> Hence the following sentence:
> "When the breech plug is removed the gun is rendered inoperable, or incapable of firing modern-day ammunition."


According to Traditions, there are other states besides Ohio with the similar 'breech plug law' that they are working with to try and make rifle legal.

Like bobk said though...at $3 a shot, and not being able to tailor my load nor use my preferred powder... don't think I'd be interested.

Speaking on the powder...Hodgdon has developed and is using a brand new powder in these 'Firestix'.
They are calling it Hodgdon 888 or Hodgden Triple Eight. Was made exclusively for the Firestix and is supposed to be much cleaner burning. As of now, no plans from Hodgden to sell new powder in any form other than in the Firestix.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Well, I switch to Blackhorn 209 last year, so no problem there. Damned stuff is expensive though.


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## threeten (Feb 5, 2014)

Hatchetman said:


> I knew you could handle it FW....


Like white on rice
Thanks for your time and post


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## threeten (Feb 5, 2014)

Whatever happened to the ELECTRIC fired muzzleloader they brought out a few years back?
Sorry I’m off topic


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

fastwater said:


> According to Traditions, there are other states besides Ohio with the similar 'breech plug law' that they are working with to try and make rifle legal.
> 
> Like bobk said though...at $3 a shot, and not being able to tailor my load nor use my preferred powder... don't think I'd be interested.
> 
> ...


Probably a deal that Traditions worked out with Hodgdon to give them some exclusivity for a certain length of time. And this is just the first iteration of the system. Maybe Firestix will be available in varying grain weights to accommodate various bullet types and weights.

And let's remember the not that distant past in Ohio hunting history. For years, vertical bow hunters were not allowed to use mechanical releases. You had to use a tab or glove. Then mechanicals were OK'd. Crossbows were illegal. Then they were legal. You had to have 40 contiguous acres of property that could be combined by adjacent land owners to hunt on Sunday! Then you could hunt with a pistol in certain calibers with a certain barrel length. And then you could hunt with pistol caliber rifles. 

I feel confident saying that system will eventually be approved for hunting. Muzzleloaders have gone through their own evolution in Ohio as well. Let's face one fact. The ODNR is looking to sell hunting licenses and tags. Recruitment is key to that. If some new system develops a fan base that they like, it will be approved.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

threeten said:


> Whatever happened to the ELECTRIC fired muzzleloader they brought out a few years back?
> Sorry I’m off topic


Think you may be referring to the CVA Electra ARC.
Can't say for sure but don't think it took off like they expected hence the reason it's no longer in production.
When they stopped producing them, remember seeing online vendors that had them on shelves that couldn't hardly give them away.
It was never...and never became legal for use in many states due to its ignition system.
Don't know if it was/is legal here in Ohio or not.


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

^^^^^ nope^^^^


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## M R DUCKS (Feb 20, 2010)

The “ waterfowl” thread prompted me to search-
ODNR hearings.
It appears some clarification/changes/wording is proposed that might address this discussion.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Yep...seems ODNR is proposing changing the current wording defining a muzzleloader eliminating the emboldened wording below.

(ZZZ) "Muzzleloading rifle" and "muzzleloading shotgun" means a primitive weapon that is shoots a projectile or projectiles loaded exclusively from the muzzle, *and has a permanent breech plug or when said breech plug is removed renders the weapon inoperable, *and that is incapable of firing modern-day ammunition. 

Looks as though the removed wording consists of all references to breech plugs which may in fact make the new CVA technically legal in Ohio.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

With declining hunter numbers especially youth hunters if there is new product introduction that makes it easier and safer for hunters to participate in hunting without sacrificing fair chase I'm all for it.


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## garhtr (Jan 12, 2009)

At some point it just becomes another bonus gun season 
Good luck and good hunting


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Lundy said:


> With declining hunter numbers especially youth hunters if there is new product introduction that makes it easier and safer for hunters to participate in hunting without sacrificing fair chase I'm all for it.


Have been lobbying for several years for a more extended ml season rather than the measly 4 day.
Sadly...just continues to fall on deaf ears.
Guess they figure since we can hunt during regular gun season with a ml that ought to suffice. But there are many areas hunters are forced to hunt during regular gun season that if the deer isn't DRT with one shot and runs over the hill on ya it'll sound like a war zone with rapid fire shots lighting that running deer up. Just don't seem get that in a dedicated ml season. Don't know...maybe cause with a ml, people tend to wait a bit more for a better shot knowing they'll only get one instead of just slinging lead at a running deer. Too, there's not one gun season that goes by that I don't hear at least one or more barrage's of 5-6 rapid fire shots from someone that must be exempt from the three round law.


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