# Largemouth are all very small, need help to grow monsters



## Putzin (May 5, 2008)

I have a pond/ lake behind my house that is about 15 acres. It has a lot of largemouth in it but they are all the same size, 12". I have fished this pond for two years now and caught hundreds of them. I found a 5 lber floating one day three years back. The pond has alot of giant gills. There are no small gills, in fact I have never caught a gill less than 7" long. Throughout the year, the gills spawn once or twice and there will be literally hundreds of thousands of gill fry all over the lake. Not sure what to make of it. I think there aren't enough or any medium size prey to bridge the gap from small LM to giant LM.

Also, would introducing crappie into the lake a be good idea. I really love fishing for and eating them.


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## Vandal1982 (Oct 6, 2008)

I would start by taking out a large number of your bass, have a fish fry. It sounds like you have no forage for in the pond. If all you have are very large bluegill the only fish preying on them would be your extremely big largemouth. Are your large bluegill true gills or hybrids? If they are hybrids that is the problem, with out them reproducing all you get are older bigger fish each year no recruitment in your pond. If they are true gills one way to keep you bass from eating all your fry is to A) Take out predators or B) add a forage species (which can be costly for a pond of that size) But this is just my two sense for what it is worth. May not cure all the problems but it would be a start. I would not add crappie until you get the forage/predator ratio fixed. The last thing you want to do is add another predator to the mix.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

If it is 15 acres you would probably need to take out 350-500 bass to have any impact.


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

Dropping in some christmas /ceder trees might be a good simple way to help your bluegill survive past the first year, they need a place to hide and if all the fry are getting gobbled up, you may not have enough structure in the lake. I agree, start taking all the LMB out you can, a lake that size will need heavy amounts of LMB kept each year to keep the balance in check.

Salmonid


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## Putzin (May 5, 2008)

How do you tell if the gills are hybrid or regular? They look like normal gills to me. They reproduce once or twice a year. Like I said, there will be hundreds of thousonds of gill fry all over the lake.

What if were able to add a lot of minnows, chubs, and crawfish? Would this help them grow. I really don't want to take out to many fish. I agree some need to go. I would rather them compete and have most get really big. 

What if I just added a couple monster bass to get things started?

Thanks for all the suggestions. It is much appreciated.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

If no bass have been harvested in several years you probably do have a huge number of medium size bass in the lake. On a lake that size you good benefit from removing quite a few medium sized bass. There are others on here that can probably give a better target number than me but I would think removing the 12-14" bass would be the best plan provided that you have plenty of them. It sounds like from your post that there are plenty. You may also want to do as Salmonid suggested and create some cover for the minnows and baby gills to hide to increase their chance of survival. Stocking baitfish in a lake that size would be a difficult and costly task. I think the key is provided the habitat. You mentioned that there are practically no small gills and all are large. If there are a huge number of large gills I would suggest harvesting some of those as well. The large gills will do damage on the minnow population as well. Generally you are better off removing the medium sized gills as opposed to the large ones if they are present but you may have a large imbalance in your lake.

On a lake that size it may be worth looking in to stocking some perch if the fish farms felt that they could reproduce in the lake. The small perch would provide a great forage for the medium to large bass.

I truly envy you having a lake of that size to manage yourself. I think that would be the dream task for many folks on here.

Oh and we would love to see some pictures of this lake. It sounds great.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

As far as your bluegill/sunfish species I am sure that if you could get some good pictures of them up close that the guys here could help distinguish what they are.


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## Eugene (Jun 23, 2004)

Much of this pond work was written up by a fisheries scientist named Swingle decades ago. His work is part of the foundation of classic fisheries management. You have the classic big panfish scenario: 

too many bass competing with each other make for poor bass growth. Any bluegill fry are readily gobbled up by overly abundant bass, and the few bluegill to get big enough have little competition and grow very well. A great many would envy that situation, but it tends to be a little unstable and prone to periodically crash.

With such prolific bluegill spawn, I suspect they are not hybrids.

In general, white crappie are terrible in ponds. They are prone to overpopulate and stunt everything. Crappie diets are dominated by inverts when small and fish when large, so too many crappie can wreak havoc at all trophic levels. Black crappie can be managed in ponds, but it requires some effort.

Here is a good source for some basic info:
Ohio Pond Management Handbook

You could also try a call to OSU Extension. Bill (linked here), in particular, is a good source of advice, but your local extension office and agents should be able to help too.

This classic text is a more technical source of useful info:
Murphy & Willis


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

Good info Eugene, I might add that the Ohio Pond Management Handbook is pretty basic and if your not doing the typical Bass/Bluegill pond, it will be not much use to you, for more specific questions or dealing with extra or optional species in ponds, ( IE. Smallies, Perch, Crappies, Catfish, trout or anything else) try posting into the forum at www.pondboss.com
I have been over there for 2 years now, as others from this forum, and have learned a TON of great info from many pond owners who really have all learned the hard way how to manage a pond. 

I am like you, I want a pond with trophy everything in it!!!! In my case, thats Black Crappies, Perch, Hybrid Bluegills, Red ears, Blue Cats, Channel cats and hybrid striped bass, Im sure in about 3 years, Ill be learning the hard way when the minnows crash and everything starves to death.... In the meantime, Ill be feeding, stocking more bait fish and aerating to push the biomass carrying capacity of the pond.

Salmonid


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

If you need sombody to thin the herd of bass, I'd be glad to help with that problem!


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

From what Ive read , the only true hybrid gills are the initial stocking. Every reproduction afterward brings them closer to regular bluegills. If thats true and its been a long time since the lake was stocked then there may not be many hybrids left.


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## Putzin (May 5, 2008)

Like I said the gills spawn twice a year. There will be thousands of thier fry all over the lake. I guess I'm gonna start by adding some more habitat and removing a boat load of bass. Thanks for the input from everyone.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

bass fry at putzin's hourse!


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

and by hourse, i meant house.


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## Tokugawa (Apr 29, 2008)

Hope this is not too late. A LMB needs to eat about 7-10 lbs of food to put on 1 lb of body weight. Those fry will do nothing to increase the size of the LMB as they fry are too small. I bet the bass are skinny too. Think of it like subsistence farming...the fry just keep the bass alive - no more. No growth. You need the ability to grow bigger and more varied prey. Here are some ideas - take 'em or leave 'em:

1. Seine sample a couple of areas to get a good idea of the prey to predator ratio. Remember the 7 lb thing...
2. Start a slot harvest for the LMB. Generally, harvesting 12-16" LMB will help.
3. Add cover like some folks have said here. Additionally, add cover that promotes spawning of baitfish. Pallets for minnows. Grass for shiners.
4. After a year of the slot harvest (pulling approx 10-20 bass per acre), add some more baitfish. This is budget dependent. If you have the budget, 10lbs of shiners per acre in spring is a good place to start. Do not add fatheads...they will just be a fast snack. Add shiners as they are faster and will have a better chance to spawn (grass!!!) and will have a higher recruitment level.

The forage base should consist of bluegill, minnows and shiner - plus anything else like frogs, snails, bugs, etc.... Be careful with craws if there is an earth dam. They'll tunnel into it. 

HTH! Good luck!!


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## Putzin (May 5, 2008)

Tok,

What type of experience do you have with ponds?

What type of minnows should I introduce? There are many creeks and rivers near my home. I was going to simply trap a couple hundred each week and put them into the pond. Hoping that over time some will survive. It is also a cheap solution to introducing a food source that I am hoping will reproduce.

I am in the process of gathering Christmas trees. Pallets are a good idea. Where would I get some pallets for free? What else would make good habitat? The lake has plenty of grass in certain areas. 

Where would I get shiners? And aren't they expensive?

The craws wouldn't be able to take down an entire dam system. I thought they would be a good food source that will be cheap to obtain. I have crawfish traps I place in the rivers and I load up on 'em. Usually I eat them but I am going to put them in the lake instead.


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

What part of the state are you in?? That will help us tell you where to get baitfish, shiners, pallets etc. 

A word of warning about introducing creekfish into your pond, that may bring in unwanted species like bullheads or carp. Also if you bring in river/creek crawfish, they may not reproduce depending on the species since there will be no moving water for reproduction. Just a heads up there. BTW. a buddy of mine took about 40 Crayfish in one setting from his favorite creek hole in a trap 1 time and hasnt taken a crawfish since, must have taken darn near every one of them, so again, use common sense and take selective harvest on both creek baitfish and crayfish. 

Fathead minnows are fairly cheap, will reproduce about 4 times over the summer and everything will eat them. Golden Shiners are a better bass bait since they are bigger (3-7") but will only reproduce 1-2 times a year and sometimes they are spotty spawners.

Typically cost for each of these from local fish farms is around $8-9 per lb for fatheads and around $10-12 per lb for the Golden Shiners. ( the more you buy, the cheaper they get) 

I know in SW Ohio ATAC and Jones fish hatcheries are the 2 top places, I have had some bad experiences with Freshwater Farms near Urbana so you might want to to stay away from them. 

Salmonid


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## Eugene (Jun 23, 2004)

OSU Extension has a whole heap of useful fact sheets on pond management that can be downloaded for free from this page. In particular, note this one on placing evergreens as fish attractors.

I also agree with Salmonid. You should really carefully consider the risks of introducing wild fish into your pond. For example, and this is only one of many, if you're anywhere near to where VHS has been active, introducing that particular disease to fish populations within a contained environment (e.g., a pond or culture facility) could be devastating.

Be careful about extrapolating too much about a bass population from seine samples. The black basses are notorious for avoiding net gears. You can sample _Micropterus_ spp. with nets, but it takes effort to minimize escapes: a seine that spans the whole width of a small pond or cove, customizing the leads of fykes to entirely span a constricted passage, etc.


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## Tokugawa (Apr 29, 2008)

Putzin said:


> Tok,
> 
> What type of experience do you have with ponds?
> 
> ...


I fish on several private ponds in the 1-5 acre range. As I know the owners well, we have good conversations about the ponds and what is happening in them, stocking, etc. We also talk about the bad things that happen. I am planning out my 15 acre pond that I will start someday. 

Pallets can usually be obtained from lawn and garden stores. Sometimes Home Depots will have extras. Christmas trees are great. A few hardwood laydowns are nice too...especially if you can get the top branches into 8-12 feet of water.

Do shiners. You can add fathead minnows too, but they might not last too long. You want big shiners for big fish. Although...fatheads are cheaper. Tadpoles might be a good way to start the frog population.

Like Salmonid said, Jones has shiners. $10-12/lb depending on quantity. I would agree with the other posters that introducing wild minnows and craw might not be good. Disease and stuff. Species like Orconectus Rusticus, Rusty Crayfish, is not a crayfish that you want in your pond, even if you live in their natural range.

Some good info:

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/about.html#fish
http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/ais/rustycrayfish_invader
http://jonesfish.com/products/28/Golden-Shiner-Forage-Fish.htm

Someone mentioned pondboss...which is a great resource too.


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## JIG (Nov 2, 2004)

I agree with ya Putzin. More gills and less bass. Some of the shallow ponds have a tendency to get over run with bass. Stunt fish! Theyll only get too 14 in long. They are like the young eyes at Skeeter! Piranna! They eat everything up and dont have room to grow. Structure is great for fish to hide when its over populated with bass. Theyll get there share off the gills beds and such. To me its about balance. To much of one and not enough of the other. Dont think shinners and minnows are going to hurt or help but cats will along with carp. Watch your minnows. Theyll all spred like wild fire. After you staiten it up pending on were you live and such you might be able to stock perch and some crapps for the kids too. Might be as easy as ice fishin the bass out and eating them. The gills will come back


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

As others have stated, it sounds like you have a typical bass heavy pond. I'd love to do some bluegill fishing at your place though because I bet you have some monsters.

Let's start with the pond and water.
You will need a lot of structure and cover in a lake that size, roughly 2 acres worth. Adding a bunch of minnow size forage won't have much of an effect if they can't survive long enough to reproduce. To put things in perspective, let's say you have overpopulation of bass at 125 1lb bass per acre, you'd have to feed them 15,000lbs of forage for them to grow them to 2lb bass at a cost of around $100K. Adding forage is ok with the expection that they will reproduce only if sufficient cover is available. Fertility is also very important. Visibilty should be between 16" and 20" and the water should be green. If the pond is really clear or muddy, the base of the food chain is going to suffer and so on up the chain. A water test would be a small and wise investment too as the quality of water directly affects the quality of fish. The soil and water department should be able to help with this.

As far as fish:
I think you can get a pretty good feel for the condition of your fish simply by fishing for them. If the species your catching are skinny you probably have too many hogs at the trough. I've researched and attempted many management schemes but have uncompicated things by simply removing numbers of those fish that don't look fat...basically making the rich richer. You need to use a heavy hand with bass as they repopulate quickly. I highly doubt 1 or two people could overfish a bass population in a 15 acre lake. In your case, I would remove all bass caught under 16". In fertile water, you may have to remove 1000lbs of bass this year to make a significant impact to see results over the next two.

Do not add crappie and perch. I count them as predators. I think stocking them would worsen your situation because they would focus mainly on small bluegill for forage. You do seem like a good candidate for northern pike, musky, or tiger musky stocked at a low density (maybe 1 per acre) to help reduce the bass population. Stocking same sex or hybrid would eliminate the risk of them reproducing and make them easy to manage.

Bluegills are the primary forage for a bass pond in Ohio. Golden shiners are also good if their is adequate cover and spawning structure for them. Anderson's minnow farm will ship you a box of millions of shiner fry pretty cheap.

*And then there's always the option of a pellet feeding program if the budget allows.


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## Putzin (May 5, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Pondman. I really appreciate it. I am going to be pulling out a lot of bass this summer.

Huge fish fry at my house this summer!!


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## ohiomelvin (Jun 22, 2008)

were do u live ill come and help


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## jjfry (May 31, 2009)

Putzin said:


> I have a pond/ lake behind my house that is about 15 acres. It has a lot of largemouth in it but they are all the same size, 12". I have fished this pond for two years now and caught hundreds of them. I found a 5 lber floating one day three years back. The pond has alot of giant gills. There are no small gills, in fact I have never caught a gill less than 7" long. Throughout the year, the gills spawn once or twice and there will be literally hundreds of thousands of gill fry all over the lake. Not sure what to make of it. I think there aren't enough or any medium size prey to bridge the gap from small LM to giant LM.
> 
> Also, would introducing crappie into the lake a be good idea. I really love fishing for and eating them.


the cheapest would be take some out, but I would get picture find out what they are (if reg bluegill) put structure areas so you can get more gills to live to 3"-6" and I think 5" and up will spawn that will start your bigger forage base. yes adding crayfish couldn't hurt..bullfrogs will also create allot of food. I don't know if you got weed problems or not I know to much isn't good,if that's the case get some grass carp..hope this helps


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