# Ruffed Grouse



## kayak1979

I remember in the early 90's when I was first hunting with my dad we would occasionally kick up ruffed grouse in Geauga County in really thick cover/grape vines/brush etc. I haven't seen any since then. Are the grouse pretty much gone from Geauga County/Northeast Ohio area because lack of fur taking or is it something else?


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## mmukav

Ruffed grouse numbers are way down all over Ohio, including Geauga County. Loss of habitat is what I've read is the main reason. Ohio's reluctance to log out state forests has hurt grouse and deer. Old growth forests lack the understory needed to support good populations of both. It's a shame really...


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## kayak1979

Two years ago I was backpacking oil creek state park in Pa and kicked up 3. It made me wonder if Pa has a better management program.


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## Flathead76

Go to hambden orchards. We used to kick a few outta there as kids.


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## mmukav

kayak1979 said:


> Two years ago I was backpacking oil creek state park in Pa and kicked up 3. It made me wonder if Pa has a better management program.


They do. Pa. allows state land logging which helps restore the understory grouse and woodcock need to survive. 

Pa. manages their land much better than Ohio does (IMHO). We do grow some great deer though....


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## fakebait

The last Grouse I downed in Geauga Co. was in 1974 just north of Chardon in 1976 I moved to southeastern Pa and found a decent population on state game lands in Lancaster and Berks county about 40 miles northeast of Philadelphia. I moved back to Northeastern Ohio in 1992 and saw my last flush in Huntsburg Ohio in 1995. Since then I have tried all over Northeastern Ohio to find a population with no luck. Every time I would get any sort of a lead, out I go looking with no success. I even tried Southeastern Ohio on reports with no luck. In the late 60,s early 70's birds were everywhere. Like it has been stated without clear cutting of old forest there is no habitat for these birds. Now even with some clearing being done and new under growth on some tracts of land there are no birds available to move onto these tracts. Pa has done a great job at clear cutting their game lands to maintain wildlife. Pa. puts the ODNR to shame when comes to maintaining their game lands. At least there you can see your license fees working for you. Here other than shoddy parking lots most land does not see much state funding. Just stating an observation not picking on the ODNR !


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## BaddFish

I second the idea that PA has Grouse...Ohio- does not.

I hunted a few select clear cut areas in PA last year- flushed 3 in 4 hours.

Ohio this year- I've went through some nice looking habitat and have only found a few woodcock so far.


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## ducky152000

It really is a shame, im only 27 and in my short time of hunting ive noticed a huge decrease in grouse. When i was in middle school it was nothing to flush 10 to 20 grouse a day. Now in the same woods im lucky to jump 2 a year.


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## buckeyebowman

kayak1979 said:


> Two years ago I was backpacking oil creek state park in Pa and kicked up 3. It made me wonder if Pa has a better management program.


They do! My buddy has a trailer in a campground that abuts a state game land in PA. We can walk out the back of the campground and flush grouse left and right! PA allows some tall timber to be cut so that the low, dense, thicket cover grouse love can grow. I used to hunt Beaver Creek SP in southeastern Ohio for many years, and I used to flush grouse all over the place. Now, they're not there! It seems to be like I heard years ago. You can sell permits for turkey, but not for pheasant or grouse! Follow the money!


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## MassillonBuckeye

I forget where but while looking at some state park hunting maps, i noticed a ruffed grouse management area. What that means? I'm not sure. Maybe they stock them there to hunt?

Heres a nice writeup anyhow. From 1986 mind you.

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream...d=FE1E9952BBC5CF23971DAE306A863137?sequence=1


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## fakebait

The last I knew you could not pen raise grouse. They are a very fragile bird and can not handle the stress of human contact. So they find it hard to do any sort stocking program to help regenerate populations. We need them to move in from bordering states if at all possible to repopulate our state. The biggest problem is we need private property owner to start clearing out their older woods. The state could harvest their own properties and get the big infusion of much needed cash flow. It will take all the help from private and state owners of these tracts of woods to reverse the habitat problems. As well as helping all wildlife it would also help the deer populations is where the money being created by the state.


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## garhtr

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I forget where but while looking at some state park hunting maps, i noticed a ruffed grouse management area. What that means? I'm not sure. Maybe they stock them there to hunt?
> 
> Heres a nice writeup anyhow. From 1986 mind you.
> 
> https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream...d=FE1E9952BBC5CF23971DAE306A863137?sequence=1


 I'm not positive but I believe Zaleski State Forest has a grouse Management area. It's a section of the forest where they maintain ideal habitat conditions for Grouse such as clear cutting and logging of mature timber ect.
In 70's and 80's The Mead Paper Co clear-cut large tracts of forest for pulp wood in Southern Ohio and permitted hunting on the areas after they had been timbered. 4-5 years after they were clear cut they were Great hunting for grouse and rabbits, I sure miss those days and the really good grouse numbers. Given the proper habitat numbers would come back.


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## longhaulpointer

They do but the aeras is just a drop in the bucket. Hopefully the huge forest fire from some years back will help Shawnee out, that's where I've had the best luck. It be nice to be able to drive an hour and hunt in my own state rather than driving 7 hours to spend my money in Michigan. .......a state who seems to get it when it comes to hunting and fishing.


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## buckeyebowman

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I forget where but while looking at some state park hunting maps, i noticed a ruffed grouse management area. What that means? I'm not sure. Maybe they stock them there to hunt?
> 
> Heres a nice writeup anyhow. From 1986 mind you.
> 
> https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream...d=FE1E9952BBC5CF23971DAE306A863137?sequence=1


I would guess that they found a population of grouse there, and are manipulating the habitat around them in hopes that their numbers will increase. That's what PA does, but it seems they don't wait till the grouse numbers fall into the basement before they do something. But then, the ruffed grouse is PA's state bird!

You can't pen raise grouse and stock them like you can pheasant. The hunting club I belong to stocks pen raised pheasant for the hunting season. Yes, it is fun. Especially since it had been 25-30 years since I had leveled a gun at a pheasant. I almost forgot about deer hunting! 

But grouse are another matter. They are native sons, and I believe they deserve a bit more consideration than they are getting, at least here in Ohio. There's no game bird that flushes with more heart stopping explosiveness than does the grouse! I can't hit one of them to save my life, but that doesn't mean I don't like to hunt them. It just means the bag might be a little light at the end of the day!


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## Tritonman

Just an observation. It seems as though right after the strip mining boom in Ohio grouse hunting was plentiful. Cause like u said. Timber stand improvement. Although it was not directly geared towards habitat it was a result. Where I hunt they stripped back in the late 70s. And then about 10 years after that there was grouse everywhere. Now not the fact. The canopy has taken over. We do however get 1 or 2 flushes targeting the high stem count patches. Instead of walking through non productive areas we do milk runs. Prolly 6-10 traditional grouse areas. Jump in the truck and move on. On a different note. The wnf used to produce upwards of 30 flushes. That was back in the early 90s. Just hitting those spots. Now 4-5. What happened. I tell stories to the kids bout going grouse hunting. We used to get pumped up bout going down to hunt grouse. Now it's just a hike in the woods carrying my gun scouting for deer.


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## kayak1979

I listened to the podcast it was interesting listening to the ODNR. I think one problem is the raccoon population. I imagine they eat grouse eggs just like they eat turkey eggs. I did hear them mention that some people blame turkeys eating the food the grouse would eat. Come to think of it, it does seem that as the turkey population grew in Ohio the grouse population dwindled.

http://www.wone.com/media/podcast-o...doors/mark-wiley-ruffed-grouse-odnr-25418335/


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## c. j. stone

kayak1979 said:


> Come to think of it, it does seem that as the turkey population grew in Ohio the grouse population dwindled.
> 
> http://www.wone.com/media/podcast-o...doors/mark-wiley-ruffed-grouse-odnr-25418335/



EXACTLY correct!! Natural process since turkeys are higher up on the food chain! 
Of course, maturation of the forests that grew up when the numerous, small share-cropped farms of the 40's, 50's and 60's were abandoned(hard to farm on hill sides!) are another major factor in grouse population declines!


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## Bwana J

I started hunting grouse back in the early 70's in Ashtabula and Trumbull countie's. Back then the grouse population was fantastic and flushing 20 to 30 birds was not hard to do. The ODNR used to run a survey on grouse hunting and I participated in it for a number of years keeping track of hours hunted and number of birds flushed as well as number of birds harvested. We would send the results back to them and they would use that info to determine how the grouse were doing in Ohio. Once all the info was tabulated they would send us the results. They found that the populations ran on a ten year cycle of highs and lows. My best year I harvested 19 grouse and shot 3 limits. As the years went by I noticed that the birds were getting harder to find, even in prime habitat. I can't speak about other area's but here in north east Ohio there is just as much prime cover now as there was back in the good old days and it's hard to believe that that's the problem. I also noticed that as the turkey population grew the grouse declined. I'm not blaming the turkey's for the decline but it just seems odd. Logging here has continued just as much as it did back in the 70's and 80's, creating the second growth needed by the grouse to survive in huntable numbers. It has been many years since I've heard a grouse drum or even seen tracks in the snow. In the last 10 years I've only seen 3 sets of tracks in the snow while hunting deer and most of my deer hunting is done in prime grouse habitat. The population of grouse are gone, maybe the ODNR should start doing the survey's again and compare the results to the old studie's and try to decide just what happened and rectify the situation if possible. I'm not the smartest tack in the drawer but just maybe the finger should be pointed at the predator's like **** and yotes. Their numbers have sky rocketed compared to the 70's. Maybe it's time to set a bounty on yotes to help try to control their numbers. One thing I do know is that it wasn't due to loss of habitat, the good area's are still there and new woods are being logged off every day. The grouse are all but gone now and every effort should be made to bring them back, just hope it isn't too late. It's sad to think that my Grand kid's may never experience the thrill of a grouse busting out of cover at your feet.


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## joebertin

Amen Bwana.

In areas that used to produce I see no grouse tracks, but plenty of turkey, deer and coyote tracks. There might not be the amount of trapping going on as there was, and there doesn't seem to be a large number of coyote hunters.

The grouse are just not there.


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## perchangle

It all comes down to habitat. Late 70's up until mid 80's we routinely experienced 20 to 30 flushes a day....Late 80's began a sharp decline which continued until I felt guilty harvesting grouse as second growth areas began maturing and quit hunting the great bird here in Ohio..It's not coyotes, not turkeys and not raccoons, it's lack of habitat..that simple...You can thank the old growth forest environmentalist wackos....


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## Bluewalleye

I have never hunt for grouse in my life. But I used to hear them all the time down at salt fork when I used to bow hunt down there in the 90's. I could hear them drum there wings in the evening. It was pretty kool to hear them. And I used to flush them all the time when I used to bow hunt down in deersville on private land. But it has been a long time sense I have heard one or seen one..... LOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG time


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## Overwatchmike

You all are correct on the loss of habitat being the major downfall of the Ruffed grouse populations here in Ohio. 

The biggest reason is there is no clear cutting on state owned lands or large area's of private timber. Everyone is on the selective harvest kick. It's not just the clear cut that helps the grouse birds, it's one main tree or few select species of tree's that first appear after a clear cut. Those tree's would be Aspen, River Birch, and Spruce, Hemlock, along with everything else. The young Aspen and River Birch are the key tree's that are needed / desired by Ruffed Grouse. Think about it, when was the last time you saw a one acre tract of land that they let Aspen and Birch tree's take over? Everyone wants the hardwoods and not the softwoods. When they strip mined southern Ohio the first tree's to come back were the soft woods which equaled large numbers of Grouse birds. Same with the quarries in Geauga and Ashtabula counties.

I am spoiled as I own a cabin in Ontario which has unreal amounts of both Ruffed and Spruce Grouse. The reason why? Clear cutting and all soft woods! I can easily limit out (6 birds) in a short walk plus more that get away. 

Bring back some tracts of softwoods and the Grouse populations will explode.....


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## mmukav

"Bring back some tracts of softwoods and the Grouse populations will explode....."

I wish Overwatchmike, I wish........


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## buckeyebowman

So true, so true! Back in the day my buddy and I had a great grouse hunting spot south of Lisbon. It was hilly country and mostly hardwoods, but was absolutely infested with wild grape! There were grape vines that were as thick as my calf coming out of the ground! After some time grape vines will drag a tree down and open up up the canopy. Where the sunlight now struck the ground, what came up? First weeds, then brier, then softwoods, the fastest growing trees! Grouse loved those spots.

Then, a couple of years before we stopped hunting the place, we noticed that someone had gone through the woods with a saw and cut all the living grapevines. Maybe other hunters with a misguided view of how the woods work, or the landowner looking to sell timber. 

In the Michigan and Wisconsin grouse woods their favorite softwood was alder, a relative of birch. Grouse hunters would walk the old, logging tote roads and hunt the alder thickets.


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## Overwatchmike

buckeyebowman said:


> So true, so true! Back in the day my buddy and I had a great grouse hunting spot south of Lisbon. It was hilly country and mostly hardwoods, but was absolutely infested with wild grape! There were grape vines that were as thick as my calf coming out of the ground! After some time grape vines will drag a tree down and open up up the canopy. Where the sunlight now struck the ground, what came up? First weeds, then brier, then softwoods, the fastest growing trees! Grouse loved those spots.
> 
> Then, a couple of years before we stopped hunting the place, we noticed that someone had gone through the woods with a saw and cut all the living grapevines. Maybe other hunters with a misguided view of how the woods work, or the landowner looking to sell timber.
> 
> In the Michigan and Wisconsin grouse woods their favorite softwood was alder, a relative of birch. Grouse hunters would walk the old, logging tote roads and hunt the alder thickets.


Yes I forgot about the other key ingredient..... Wild grape vines. Most people cut them because of their taking over tree's but they forget about the benefits of leaving some.

In Ontario the locals shoot them in the head with .22's so they don't waste meat. They'll ride their 4 wheelers on the old logging roads and take the ones out sunning. I've actually killed 2 with a sling shot and have pics of one not 2 feet away from my foot on his drumming log.


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## Misdirection

Overwatchmike said:


> Yes I forgot about the other key ingredient..... Wild grape vines. Most people cut them because of their taking over tree's but they forget about the benefits of leaving some.
> 
> In Ontario the locals shoot them in the head with .22's so they don't waste meat. They'll ride their 4 wheelers on the old logging roads and take the ones out sunning. I've actually killed 2 with a sling shot and have pics of one not 2 feet away from my foot on his drumming log.


I can remember when I was a kid and you received grape vine seeds with your hunting license to plant...I seem to recall a lot more grouse back then too.


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## BaddFish

I hope to make it this sat to PA for some ruffies... I will post if I have some success


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## supercanoe

I like having some grape vines around for wildlife, but they have to be managed. I would not consider grape vine management as "misguided". If you don't want to get kicked out of cauv you better make it look like you are putting some effort into it. If you care about mast crop and timber you need to manage grapevines. You must understand that there are pros and cons to them.


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## James F

The predators do play a real part in the decline. As stated Grouse go through a cycle, and when the population is low , breeding is at risk due to competition for desirable habitat. I remember the Post Office used to participate in the census count.I do miss those heart stopping flushes! I have hunted some very productive stripped areas and over time the habitat has become over grown, forcing the Grouse to move out in search of what they require.


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## Shortdrift

perchangle said:


> It all comes down to habitat. Late 70's up until mid 80's we routinely experienced 20 to 30 flushes a day....Late 80's began a sharp decline which continued until I felt guilty harvesting grouse as second growth areas began maturing and quit hunting the great bird here in Ohio..It's not coyotes, not turkeys and not raccoons, it's lack of habitat..that simple...You can thank the old growth forest environmentalist wackos....


I too experienced the same thing through the early to mid 70"s then watched the steady decline in SE Ohio as we progressed into the 80"s which is when I gave up on Ohio grouse. "It's not coyotes, not turkeys and not raccoons, it's lack of habitat..that simple".


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## buckeyebowman

James F said:


> The predators do play a real part in the decline. As stated Grouse go through a cycle, and when the population is low , breeding is at risk due to competition for desirable habitat. I remember the Post Office used to participate in the census count.I do miss those heart stopping flushes! I have hunted some very productive stripped areas and over time the habitat has become over grown, forcing the Grouse to move out in search of what they require.


I'm sorry, but I fail to understand. How could it be that when the population is low, that there would be very much competition for desirable habitat? Whatever, it is obvious that habitat is the key. I don't know how grouse became a second class citizen, but I would hope for better in the future.


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## Overwatchmike

Don't forget about all of the nasty winters we had in the late 80's / 90's which also played a huge part in the grouse population falling. The winter of 93/94 was really bad....


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## Dirt

100% habitat. State land only goes so far. More logging on private property, more birds. A mix of clear cuts, woods and fields is perfect for all wildlife. Logging used to be big in Ohio in the grouse hey days.


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## Hendershot

I gave up grouse hunting in Ohio when I got a good bird dog. It just isn't fair to her.  argue all u want about what caused it, doesn't matter bc the odnr won't do anything about it to try to change it. No one comes to Ohio to spend big dollars on small game hunting. 


Hendershot


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## shroomhunter

Would the last Grouse out of Ohio please turn out the lights.....I have been watching this forum for a number of years hoping that maybe, just maybe the mighty Grouse would make a comeback. Now that I see Kentucky is as bad as Ohio I guess I can put these hopes to rest. Dove hunting just doesn't appeal to me, pheasant hunting cage released birds has no appeal, turkey and deer well just not into that either. Might as well sell off the shotguns, I'll keep one for home defense I guess. What a damn sad state of affairs!! But hey.... I can take up bird watching we are loaded with Eagles, Hawks & owls now and then there's coyote watching another exciting endeavor......


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