# Cleveland Metroparks Guide Permit Program



## Cleveland Metroparks (Dec 14, 2005)

Beginning January 1, 2012, Cleveland Metroparks will require any paid fishing guide working on Park District land holdings to complete a permit process and fulfill minimum requirements (this includes steelhead guides working within Rocky River Reservation, and North and South Chagrin reservations). The process requires commercial liability insurance, first aid training, and an annual fee ($50 for Cuyahoga county and Hinckley Township residents, $100 for all others) for cost recovery for program administrative expenses. There are a number of reasons this program was instituted, but chief among them were a growing number of fishing guides working our property (we want to make sure they are being responsible with their clients' safety), encouragement by fishing guides and sportsmans groups who saw the need (Ohio Central Basin Steelheaders among them), and also because the state of Ohio does not require such a program, unlike several of our surrounding states, leaving it in the hands of local park districts like Cleveland Metroparks and Lake County Metroparks to administer guide permit programs however they see fit. Please contact Aquatic Biologist Michael Durkalec for more information, and/or to acquire a permit application, at [email protected] or (440) 331-8017.

Mike


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## OSD (Sep 18, 2010)

Good stuff


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## Eugene (Jun 23, 2004)

Good thing I suck at this too much to be in demand as a guide. ...And the program does read like a great plan. Good luck at it, Mike.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

Its about time Mike.... Lake metro parks already had that in motion.


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## CARL510ISLE (Jan 8, 2010)

Nice to see Mike.

I'll have to up my fee to $1


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## Lundfish (Apr 7, 2010)

Nice to see government getting more.


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## GobyOneGnoby (Apr 21, 2004)

Interesting...what is the motivation or logic behind this program and what will be done with the proceeds?


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## Cleveland Metroparks (Dec 14, 2005)

Most of the motivation for this program came at the urging of local guides and sportsman's groups who saw a need for some quality control among guides for the sake of client's safety, quality of experience, etc (just look at the responses of local noted guide services by SteelheadBob and OSD below and you get an idea of the general consensus among reputable guides). As it stood formerly, anyone could wake up and decide to be guide even if they had no idea about how to safely take someone out on a stream. This program will make sure they know how to deal with first aid in the case of an emergency, as well as having insurance to make sure client's have that level of protection, as well (and good for the guide so they don't "lose their house", so to speak, if someone sues them due to an injury). Also, Park rules already state that anyone conducting business on park lands needs a permit, period...so on that token this certainly fits that description (exhanging a service for pay). The proceeds, which will be minor since this is expected to be a custom program for a small group, will probably not even cover the expenses of carrying out this program alone...if you consider Ranger enforcement to check guides (I expect folks to be calling us to check up on guides they see working the rivers), paperwork/record keeping and corresponsdence with applicants, time of our law director already put into researching doing this right, etc. Like all other agencies int the state of Ohio, we've lost a ton of public funding in the past year and if anglers/guides request a customized program (like this one) then it's reasonable that there will be a fee for cost recovery of the program. Also, if anything Ohio is the exception on NOT having such a program for a fee...just look over the border at PA for an example where non-resident guide license is $400.


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## 1morecast (Jun 13, 2007)

Good job! I'm in full support!


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## GobyOneGnoby (Apr 21, 2004)

Cleveland Metroparks said:


> Most of the motivation for this program came at the urging of local guides and sportsman's groups who saw a need for some quality control among guides for the sake of client's safety, quality of experience, etc (just look at the responses of local noted guide services by SteelheadBob and OSD below and you get an idea of the general consensus among reputable guides). As it stood formerly, anyone could wake up and decide to be guide even if they had no idea about how to safely take someone out on a stream. This program will make sure they know how to deal with first aid in the case of an emergency, as well as having insurance to make sure client's have that level of protection, as well (and good for the guide so they don't "lose their house", so to speak, if someone sues them due to an injury). Also, Park rules already state that anyone conducting business on park lands needs a permit, period...so on that token this certainly fits that description (exhanging a service for pay). The proceeds, which will be minor since this is expected to be a custom program for a small group, will probably not even cover the expenses of carrying out this program alone...if you consider Ranger enforcement to check guides (I expect folks to be calling us to check up on guides they see working the rivers), paperwork/record keeping and corresponsdence with applicants, time of our law director already put into researching doing this right, etc. Like all other agencies int the state of Ohio, we've lost a ton of public funding in the past year and if anglers/guides request a customized program (like this one) then it's reasonable that there will be a fee for cost recovery of the program. Also, if anything Ohio is the exception on NOT having such a program for a fee...just look over the border at PA for an example where non-resident guide license is $400.


Thanks Mike!

I'm not saying it's good, bad or otherwise. Nor am I asking for anyone to defend it. It's rather difficult to form an opinion without credible information. It seems like it would make more sense for the State to handle it like our neighbors.

Steve


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## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear. Something needed to be done. It would be nice to see it state wide


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## Cleveland Metroparks (Dec 14, 2005)

Thanks for all your thoughts/feedback, guys. Agreed it would be ideal to have a guide permit process at the state level for the sake of consistency between streams, but all indicators are that the state is not in a position to do that at this time.


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## Chef T (Feb 28, 2011)

As an ex-guide, I'm all for this. These requirements keep the clients safe and the the resource respected. If I were still guiding , I would take my permit to my guide insurance company to get a further discount as well. 
Lets face it, Steelhead conditions can be brutal. Slip and falls are common, and the weather is prime for hypothermia. Then, you are always too far from the truck when IT happens, leavig your guide to make serious decisions with your health. 
A permit is also the sign of how our fishery has matured. I remember when there was about 20 of us that guided for Steelies in the late 90s/early 2000s, now its like a gold rush. Everyone is a "guide", lol. 
Great job Metro-Parks!!!


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

Cleveland Metroparks said:


> Beginning January 1, 2012, Cleveland Metroparks will require any paid fishing guide working on Park District land holdings to complete a permit process and fulfill minimum requirements (this includes steelhead guides working within Rocky River Reservation, and North and South Chagrin reservations). The process requires commercial liability insurance, first aid training, and an annual fee ($50 for Cuyahoga county and Hinckley Township residents, $100 for all others) for cost recovery for program administrative expenses. There are a number of reasons this program was instituted, but chief among them were a growing number of fishing guides working our property (we want to make sure they are being responsible with their clients' safety), encouragement by fishing guides and sportsmans groups who saw the need (Ohio Central Basin Steelheaders among them), and also because the state of Ohio does not require such a program, unlike several of our surrounding states, leaving it in the hands of local park districts like Cleveland Metroparks and Lake County Metroparks to administer guide permit programs however they see fit. Please contact Aquatic Biologist Michael Durkalec for more information, and/or to acquire a permit application, at [email protected] or (440) 331-8017.
> 
> Mike



Great idea set a presidence "sp" for the entire state to go this way! Now enforcing it will be a harder problem! I think the fines need to be steep, and the costs need to go up!


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## ohfish (Nov 16, 2010)

Eugene said:


> Good thing I suck at this too much to be in demand as a guide. ...And the program does read like a great plan. Good luck at it, Mike.


hey, i resent this remark, you outfished me the last couple times 

sounds like a good idea to me, mike


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## reo (May 22, 2004)

GREAT news. Thanks


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

as someone who has been guiding at some level since 88', a whole group of us old timers had several meetings with DNR about trying to coordinate a Guide procedure but the state lawyers didnt want anything to do with it at that time, ( about 1993-94 maybe), the DNR was looking at minimum requirements and a permit system but the guys who make all the money told them the state didnt want to inur any further insurance risks so they left it wide open. A real shame as I got out of the steelie business about 2000 when there were more weekend guides then clients...and the start of the guides buying up some of the best waters, LOL

PS I think its a great start for the parks to introduce this policy

Salmonid


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## nforkoutfitters (Jan 25, 2010)

For those of us that care about the safety of our clients and the overall quality of their experience, this won't be a problem. For those who fly by night, it will. Sounds like a good idea. Oh yea, Mike, Thanks for the drink in Baldwin!


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

Salmonid said:


> as someone who has been guiding at some level since 88', a whole group of us old timers had several meetings with DNR about trying to coordinate a Guide procedure but the state lawyers didnt want anything to do with it at that time, ( about 1993-94 maybe), the DNR was looking at minimum requirements and a permit system but the guys who make all the money told them the state didnt want to inur any further insurance risks so they left it wide open. A real shame as I got out of the steelie business about 2000 when there were more weekend guides then clients...and the start of the guides buying up some of the best waters, LOL
> 
> PS I think its a great start for the parks to introduce this policy
> 
> Salmonid


I can name a few guides from p.a. that lease land in ohio waters to guide on....


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

steelheadBob said:


> I can name a few guides from p.a. that lease land in ohio waters to guide on....


Well I can tell you one thing if Phil Hillman already knows these names good, but if he does not he needs too! If you like to call me and talk about this over the phone great. The longer we sit here and say I could tell you this or tell you that and do nothing and restrict public angler access the worse it will get.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

steelheader007 said:


> Well I can tell you one thing if Phil Hillman already knows these names good, but if he does not he needs too! If you like to call me and talk about this over the phone great. The longer we sit here and say I could tell you this or tell you that and do nothing and restrict public angler access the worse it will get.


Tom, shoot me your number again via pm


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

steelheadbob said:


> tom, shoot me your number again via pm


.......done


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## GobyOneGnoby (Apr 21, 2004)

steelheader007 said:


> Great idea set a presidence "sp" for the entire state to go this way! Now enforcing it will be a harder problem! I think the fines need to be steep, and the costs need to go up!


+1 Rules and laws are useless if they're unenforceable and the penalties are anemic. I hope whatever proceeds are collected are invested back into the fishery or the program not elsewhere.


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## oarfish (May 12, 2004)

How much the guide charge on the Rocky these days? Go by 1/2 day or full day, go by the Hr. ?? I personally never hired a guide anywhere and it does not effect me. The guiding fee should go up when the gov. takes their cut however.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

oarfish said:


> How much the guide charge on the Rocky these days? Go by 1/2 day or full day, go by the Hr. ?? I personally never hired a guide anywhere and it does not effect me. The guiding fee should go up when the gov. takes their cut however.


a persons first born and the keys to there house... lol


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## oarfish (May 12, 2004)

I guess if I was a guide I would charge min. $200 for 8 hrs. just to cover my expenses. Much more would be reasonable I just dont know what is the competition/customer ratio for the river fishing.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

Im 120 bucks for one person for 8 hours. by time I pay fuel, eggs and hours making them, flies, gear such as shot, leader, hooks and floats and Ins, i dont make alot of profit. But with ohio's unemployment rates going up, people taking cutbacks, going down to part time hours ect ect, hardly n e one can afford 275-390 to learn how or to fish for steelhead now adays. So its better if you can get a buddy or two to split the costs of a 2 or 3 person trip.


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## MY BONNIE (Nov 11, 2009)

Mike, I already have a guide license with the state of Ohio. It is required to run a charter service on lake Erie, along with all of the other requirements such as first aid, the drug testing program, and the liability insurance. 

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## Chef T (Feb 28, 2011)

steelheadBob said:


> Im 120 bucks for one person for 8 hours. by time I pay fuel, eggs and hours making them, flies, gear such as shot, leader, hooks and floats and Ins, i dont make alot of profit. But with ohio's unemployment rates going up, people taking cutbacks, going down to part time hours ect ect, hardly n e one can afford 275-390 to learn how or to fish for steelhead now adays. So its better if you can get a buddy or two to split the costs of a 2 or 3 person trip.


Sounds like SteelheadBob is hiring.


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## fredg53 (Sep 17, 2010)

steelheadBob said:


> Im 120 bucks for one person for 8 hours. by time I pay fuel, eggs and hours making them, flies, gear such as shot, leader, hooks and floats and Ins, i dont make alot of profit. But with ohio's unemployment rates going up, people taking cutbacks, going down to part time hours ect ect, hardly n e one can afford 275-390 to learn how or to fish for steelhead now adays. So its better if you can get a buddy or two to split the costs of a 2 or 3 person trip.


I don't think anybody really knows how much a guide provides bait equipment etc if needed u guys need to stress how important and what a value that is IMO 

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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

MY BONNIE said:


> Mike, I already have a guide license with the state of Ohio. It is required to run a charter service on lake Erie, along with all of the other requirements such as first aid, the drug testing program, and the liability insurance.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


This is a whole different set of rules for guiding on Park lands I would imagine!


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

Just a twisted thought here, what would folks think if the parks made a "NO GUIDING" rule since its public water paid for with public money and its not right for the guides to make money on the publics interest.

Just saying... as my friends call me "Spoon" since I like to stir the pot then walk away from a heated argument..LOL

Salmonid


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

Salmonid said:


> Just a twisted thought here, what would folks think if the parks made a "NO GUIDING" rule since its public water paid for with public money and its not right for the guides to make money on the publics interest.
> 
> Just saying... as my friends call me "Spoon" since I like to stir the pot then walk away from a heated argument..LOL
> 
> Salmonid


By any chance, you really know how much money guides bring into the state???? Just a twisted thought.


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## RiverDoc (Mar 12, 2010)

MY BONNIE said:


> other requirements such as first aid, the drug testing program, and the liability insurance.


What does this mean? I can see liability and first aid, but drug testing? Half the country is on something. What does drug testing have to do with guiding?


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## Lundfish (Apr 7, 2010)

RiverDoc said:


> What does this mean? I can see liability and first aid, but drug testing? Half the country is on something. What does drug testing have to do with guiding?


Drug testing is required for driving boats. I see your point of 'guiding' being a bit different.

We went to the Rockies over the summer and did a guided horseback trip up the mountain. Then we had to hike another mile to the lake. About half way up the trail I saw the guide eating some 'candy'. I said ;what's that? He replied; it's Colorado candy. Medical marijuana!


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## FISHIN216 (Mar 18, 2009)

Haha....I'm moving to colorado

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## Lundfish (Apr 7, 2010)

FISHIN216 said:


> Haha....I'm moving to colorado
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Funny stuff! I don't care if a guide is doing dope as long as I catch fish!


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## Patricio (Feb 2, 2007)

oarfish said:


> How much the guide charge on the Rocky these days? Go by 1/2 day or full day, go by the Hr. ?? I personally never hired a guide anywhere and it does not effect me. The guiding fee should go up when the gov. takes their cut however.


either a box of cigars or a bottle of single malt scotch. the better the cigars, the older the scotch, the more fish you catch.


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## ironfish (Jul 31, 2010)

steelheadBob said:


> By any chance, you really know how much money guides bring into the state???? Just a twisted thought.


 No how much?


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## ironfish (Jul 31, 2010)

Salmonid said:


> Just a twisted thought here, what would folks think if the parks made a "NO GUIDING" rule since its public water paid for with public money and its not right for the guides to make money on the publics interest.
> 
> Just saying... as my friends call me "Spoon" since I like to stir the pot then walk away from a heated argument..LOL
> 
> Salmonid


 Im sure there calling you a few other names when you leave a heated argument..lol..


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