# Looking for work- Getting disappointed



## wally72 (Apr 24, 2004)

It's tough being 59 yrs. old and trying to find something that pays a little. Was working a job that paid good and thinking just hang in there for three more years. I am finding out in our area places know they don't have to pay anything because everyone is trying to get a job. Worked hard all my life to get where I had a good shift and a decent amount of vacation and now it's all gone. Just wanted to vent a little. Hopefully things will improve.


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

May want to look into the oil and gas industry. A lot of the support companies are growing fast, have to pay decent to well, and need good help.

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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

What do you do?


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## wally72 (Apr 24, 2004)

I worked for a printing company and ran a large press. I have worked on the farm and done a lot of Maintenance, but no certifications. The only printing jobs I can find are about an hour and a half drive from here. I'll find something to do just may not be what I want to do, I'll just have to put off the Canada trips for a few years. I knew I should have gone to college and got smart.


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## Buckeye Ron (Feb 3, 2005)

http://agency.governmentjobs.com/ohio/default.cfm?clearSearch=1

try this site, maybe something on there that you are qualified for

Ron


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

wally72 said:


> . I knew I should have gone to college and got smart.


Yea, then you could work at a Grocery store stocking shelves like me.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

College is over rated. I'm lucky enough to work in the field I majored in, however I am under earning when you consider I have a masters that makes me more qualified than my boss when you look at our resumes.

I've interviewed at several places only to be told that due to my qualifications they believe that I would be under employed and leave.

I've had managers look at my app and resume, laugh, and tell me that they wouldn't interview me because of my education alone.

So, college isn't always worth it, and a masters is even less worth it! If I had stayed out of college I wouldn't have any debt like I do now; hell, if I never got my masters I would probably still be making more money. Not to mention I would prob have a new job too!

Sorry, this time into a rant. I hope you find something you like soon ass make it back to Canada. That sounds like fun!

Mr. A


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Dovans said:


> Yea, then you could work at a Grocery store stocking shelves like me.


What did you study?


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## leadcorebean (Jul 17, 2006)

boss302 said:


> May want to look into the oil and gas industry. A lot of the support companies are growing fast, have to pay decent to well, and need good help.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Ohub Campfire mobile app


i work for one of the bigger oil and gas suppliers out there and we are slow!!


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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

wally72 said:


> I knew I should have gone to college and got smart.


and now I drive trucks.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I was in technical writing, but that dried up. I'm looking around online writing jobs, and the market is dismal. I see listings with things like "Compensation: Experience" meaning I'm competing against people who are working for free. There are "content mills" where people write articles or blog entries for pennies, and there are plenty of stories about never getting paid.

Edited to add: I see writers complaining about having a good gig working for some content company, and when word gets out about it, they get swamped with people low-balling bids and it becomes a "race to the bottom" to get any work for the lowest wage. It's just like people here complaining about a secret honey hole that gets revealed online, and then trashed.

There are countless scams. I responded to an ad for writers. Turns out it's filling out product surveys for pay, for a particular company. Look closer, and it turns out you're trying out products and services, using your own credit card, and it's up to you to cancel during whatever free trial period, or else you're stuck with the cost.

Meanwhile, on a local TV station site, the comments at the end of the news stories are filling up with crap like "I can't believe I'm making $8000 per month sitting at my computer..." Yeah right.

I've been doing yard work in the heat of summer for cash, at age 55.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

We are usually hiring for something. Check out Cintas website for job postings. I know our location is currently looking for a wash alley operator. Our alley is entirely automated. That being said, if you're not paying attention to it, it can quickly become not automated because you'll be picking garments up off the floor.

Throughout the last 4-5 years worth of stellar economy we have never laid anyone off. It's stable, you won't need Obamacare, good matching 401k and opportunities for advancement. Just show up to work everyday, on time and don't be lazy.

I can't speak for other locations, but ours over here on the west side of Columbus does very well.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

wally72 said:


> I knew I should have gone to college and got smart.


Then, you could be overqualified like my wife. She finally got a job in her field after 4 years! She has a master's degree and is only making $12k! She has tried to get jobs that are not in her field and has been told she doesn't have the right experience or is overqualified. The student loan debt is sinking us as well!

I sure do miss Rice Lake in Canada! Good luck on your job search!


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

BottomBouncer said:


> What did you study?


Started in Agriculture, switched to Natural Resources, ended up getting degree in photography.

I did work in the photog field for a few years. However, wasnt any good. Couldnt create the vision I would have in my head. Ended up getting frustrated and depressed. Bout the time I stopped Photog, I started having a family and I elected to stay home and raise the kids. I do not regret going to college. I do regret not taking it more seriously. I could not understand why I had to take all these silly electives that really had nothing to do with my major. Then later years after graduation, people started asking questions about different things and I actually knew the answer. Because of those silly electives. The other thing I've noticed, just working at the grocery store, people with the college education are able to think through problems. You almost can tell who went to college just by working with them. I do believe college is important... but, something has to be done about the cost of furthering your education. I am beginning to believe the cost of education is more of a problem then obamacare.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

Dovans said:


> Started in Agriculture, switched to Natural Resources, ended up getting degree in photography.
> 
> I did work in the photog field for a few years. However, wasnt any good. Couldnt create the vision I would have in my head. Ended up getting frustrated and depressed. Bout the time I stopped Photog, I started having a family and I elected to stay home and raise the kids. I do not regret going to college. I do regret not taking it more seriously. I could not understand why I had to take all these silly electives that really had nothing to do with my major. Then later years after graduation, people started asking questions about different things and I actually knew the answer. Because of those silly electives. The other thing I've noticed, just working at the grocery store, people with the college education are able to think through problems. You almost can tell who went to college just by working with them. I do believe college is important... but, something has to be done about the cost of furthering your education. I am beginning to believe the cost of education is more of a problem then obamacare.


Going to college doesn't make you smart or prepared for life. I know so many people that went to college and majored in something stupid and now owe all kinds of money in college loans and make 20-25,000 a year. I tried college for a year realized it wasn't for me and became a truck driver which is what I wanted to be anyway. Now I make around 60-70,000 a year. And there are driving jobs that pay more than that. Parents of kids going to college should really go over with them what they are likely to make in the job associated with their major before paying for college. Too many people have unrealistic expectations of making 100,000/yr just because they go to college.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I got a master's degree in journalism, and back in the day that did open some doors for me.

I got screwed by market forces. In the biz, there's the "build or buy" decision - "build" meant a company hired its own programmers, computer administrators, tech writers, etc. "Buy" means instead of having your own full-time staff, you hire a team of contractors to come in and customize/install a program or system, and then they leave, and they're off the payroll instead of sitting around drawing pay, waiting to be needed.


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## MEISTERICS (May 15, 2006)

Book smart doesn't make you street smart and just because you are educated in what you want to do doesn't mean you are needed. 

Even "dumb" people make it out of college. Just as "intelligent" people quit.

My education was worth every penny!!!!


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## Silent Mike (Aug 9, 2009)

imalt said:


> Parents of kids going to college should really go over with them what they are likely to make in the job associated with their major before paying for college. Too many people have unrealistic expectations of making 100,000/yr just because they go to college.


i agree with this 100%! I have thought about threatening to not pay for kids (no kids yet) college unless they choose a worthwhile major. If they choose a major like communications, they can pay it themselves!


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Most of the points being made are very valid...A degree right now will get your foot in the door quicker than a HS diploma, Experience in a field will also trump a HS diploma, in some cases a Masters degree is needed to advance.
The Job market is still troublesome, we are not even close to where employment rates need to be for people to start making back money that has been lost in the last couple downturns...and the market, no matter what the Gov or other say, is soft and stagnent at best.
This is a "Company Market", they can pick and choose and low ball people who need jobs! When an economy is moving forward, is when employees have a chance to increase pay by moving to better jobs or playing bidders against each other.
College costs are a joke...but if you don't work and are being "Taken Care Of" by the State or Government, your education is Free, if you want! The problem is most of these people do not take advantage of the "Gift", because they just don't want to work!
People that do have a work ethic, must find a way to pay Hundreds of Thousands of dollars for that education...and right now they are not finding jobs where they can pay that money back, have a family, and enjoy life!
Times are tough for the "Working Man"!


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Silent Mike said:


> i agree with this 100%! I have thought about threatening to not pay for kids (no kids yet) college unless they choose a worthwhile major. If they choose a major like communications, they can pay it themselves!


I've thought about the same thing. I hope that this myth of "just get that piece of paper" has disappeared. From my k-12 days, my family always said to just get a degree, it doesn't matter what it is in, employers just like to see that piece of paper.

What a complete crock of **it. Those days are long long gone. Those were the days when there were blue collar, well-paying jobs that did not require a degree. Now every one has a useless degree, like dovans(no offense buddy, but what did you expect?).

I'll also say that many of the people...if not all of the people I know that have degrees are some of the most ignorant people I know. They know nothing outside of what their book told them. Sure, they can put together a report or crap like that....

If I was not nearly done with college(finally) and if I had not already racked up all the debt then I would quit. 

As far as the cost of tuition. Look at it this way... Nearly all colleges of a leftist agenda. The books show this agenda. The Univerisities do research in many areas. But this takes $$$$$$$. So tuition goes up. People can't afford it, and furthermore a degree is not needed for a good blue collar job. Blue collar jobs slowly disappear. Job market more competitive. Many can't afford tuition. Government to the rescue!!!! Just take out students loans, problem solved. Tuition can go as high as the universities want to make it. Book prices are INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
The government makes a little off loan interest, Universities get their money as long as they teach what the government wants them to teach. Think of those GEC type classes as your brainwashing sessions. After all, you can't really work a liberal agenda into an engineering class. The publishers can rake in the cash as long as they publish the message in their books and they come out with a new edition all the time, so that old book is no good and students must buy new. How many new editions of a math book are needed? How often has math changed in the last 500 years?

What's worse is that employers, who mostly have degrees, are of the mentality that job candidates are nothing without a degree. This country was not built by a bunch of people that had degrees. I wonder how many Fortune 500 companies were started by a person without a degree?

I'm going to go take a baby aspirin and sit in a dark corner  :curse::Banane45:


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

as unions dwindle and go away its gonna get alot worse. 

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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

ostbucks98 said:


> as unions dwindle and go away its gonna get alot worse.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Unions did wonders for detroit.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

imalt said:


> Unions did wonders for detroit.


Yeah, unions are the reason Toyota and Honda are doing so well. Wait...


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

yeah the unions are what set the scale for those employers benefits and salary. without unions there would be no 40 hour work week,paid vacations,paid holidays,healthcare benefits,overtime premium. im not in a union but not dumb enough to not appreciate what that labor movement did for this country. 

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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntam...bankrupt-detroit-but-great-american-cars-did/ 

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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

ostbucks98 said:


> yeah the unions are what set the scale for those employers benefits and salary. without unions there would be no 40 hour work week,paid vacations,paid holidays,healthcare benefits,overtime premium. im not in a union but not dumb enough to not appreciate what that labor movement did for this country.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


There was a time for the labor movement in this country and they did a good thing. And then they became greedy and fat. And destroyed a lot of industry that would still be here today if not for them. There purpose has come and gone. Now the union bosses get their pockets filled while the workers suffer.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

College, in many instances, is huge waste o' time and puts a huge burden on someone's shoulders who has to pay back a big loan. And for what, exactly? Alot of these people take jobs that don't require the education they paid so dearly to complete, and there isn't some huge job boom happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

I went to business school, where I learned already-outdated business and marketing strategies from guys that taught business but never held a job outside of academia. They didn't know shxt from shineola.

The better route, after graduating from high school, is to get valuable job experience that you can apply to STARTING YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

The position that supports what I do has become a revolving door of college graduates who are worth $0. I've told my employer that I'd rather work more hours and know that it's done properly and on time than find out that "Boobus the Imp" has totally dropped the ball and now I've got to fix it last second.

I'd MUCH rather have someone with real job experience and no piece of college paper than someone who has learned next to nothing in our junk, broken colleges that have continually reduced standards over the last 30 or 40 years so that even Boobus the Imp can get a degree.

As to the OP, good luck in your quest. Alot of good people with alot of experience are getting squeezed out of the workforce due to many factors, most of which relate to a particular group of people that the mods don't care for us to chat about. Economic recovery my @$$.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

ostbucks98 said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntam...bankrupt-detroit-but-great-american-cars-did/
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The inferior product that the union workers made couldn't compete. I don't see what your point is. Overpriced workers making a product that wasn't good. Seems like a union problem. The sheep in detroit all got fat and eventually they were led to slaughter. Lesson learned I guess.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

ostbucks98 said:


> yeah the unions are what set the scale for those employers benefits and salary. without unions there would be no 40 hour work week,paid vacations,paid holidays,healthcare benefits,overtime premium. im not in a union but not dumb enough to not appreciate what that labor movement did for this country.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I'm not union either and I have everything you just listed. I'm not high up any food chain either.

And the real reason that companies offer benefits like you listed is because at one time there was a freeze on pay increases. Companies had to come up with a new way to be competitive.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

and it had nothing to do with "free trade"? America killed itself allowing companies to move shop overseas and Import the product at a cheaper rate. Alot of it had to do more with government regulations and tax rates than wages. as fat as you think the auto workers are. $1500 out of every car covered the work force. 

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## cincinnati (May 24, 2004)

imalt said:


> Unions did wonders for detroit.


& education & the Post Office & government & the airlines....


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## Silent Mike (Aug 9, 2009)

Bucket Mouth said:


> College, in many instances, is huge waste o' time and puts a huge burden on someone's shoulders who has to pay back a big loan. And for what, exactly? Alot of these people take jobs that don't require the education they paid so dearly to complete, and there isn't some huge job boom happening anytime in the foreseeable future.
> 
> I went to business school, where I learned already-outdated business and marketing strategies from guys that taught business but never held a job outside of academia. They didn't know shxt from shineola.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on the major. I would say engineering definitely needs that education and piece of paper. I have been in industry for 2.5 years now and it sucks, so I am starting a brewery.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

cincinnati said:


> & education & the Post Office & government & the airlines....


Seems like a pattern but I am sure it is someone else's fault not the unions.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

ostbucks98 said:


> and it had nothing to do with "free trade"? America killed itself allowing companies to move shop overseas and Import the product at a cheaper rate. Alot of it had to do more with government regulations and tax rates than wages. as fat as you think the auto workers are. $1500 out of every car covered the work force.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


"Free trade" is figment of imagination. This corporatist economy has been rigged, cajoled, tilted, and undermined for a long long time. How can a "free" country "allow" companies to move overseas? What right does a group who makes nothing have over a company that they exist of off via taxes? They're like a tick on a dog.

The simple look at it is this - there are alot of overpriced workers whose wages have been propped up by a ton of different factors. When a market is truly free, you'll see employers and employees setting wages VOLUNTARILY, which unfortunately for all the inflated wage-earners, will mean there are people willing to work for less. When businesses, who exist to make money (not provide jobs) are not profitable, they either fold up shop or go somewhere else where they can be profitable. Blame the tick, not the dog.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

Silent Mike said:


> I think it depends on the major. I would say engineering definitely needs that education and piece of paper. I have been in industry for 2.5 years now and it sucks, so I am starting a brewery.


Great point. If your'e going to school, go for something highly technical and immerse yourself in it. Don't go and get a degree in some horse squeeze made up hooey and expect to cash a big check upon receiving said degree.

With that said, props to you on the brewery. Being the man beats working for the man. Best of luck.


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## Silent Mike (Aug 9, 2009)

> Great point. If your'e going to school, go for something highly technical and immerse yourself in it. Don't go and get a degree in some horse squeeze made up hooey and expect to cash a big check upon receiving said degree.


yes! Also, you can party just as hard with a difficult highly technical degree. I certainly did!



> With that said, props to you on the brewery. Being the man beats working for the man. Best of luck.


thank you thank you!


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

imalt said:


> Now the union bosses get their pockets filled while the workers suffer.


How can I get a job as a union boss??? I need my pockets filled!!!

Congrats on the brewery! Can we have an OGF outing there for some taste testing?

The only thing I learned in college that helps me in my job is that I learned how to solve problems. If you can solve problems that come up for your company, you have value to them. Some people can learn this without going to college. I know people that don't have a degree like mine, but could do my job just as well! And I'm in a technical field.


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## spikeg79 (Jun 11, 2012)

Love how topics on here lately get dragged way off topic  . 

To the OP good luck on your future endeavors.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Bucket Mouth said:


> "Free trade" is figment of imagination. This corporatist economy has been rigged, cajoled, tilted, and undermined for a long long time. How can a "free" country "allow" companies to move overseas? What right does a group who makes nothing have over a company that they exist of off via taxes? They're like a tick on a dog.
> 
> The simple look at it is this - there are alot of overpriced workers whose wages have been propped up by a ton of different factors. When a market is truly free, you'll see employers and employees setting wages VOLUNTARILY, which unfortunately for all the inflated wage-earners, will mean there are people willing to work for less. When businesses, who exist to make money (not provide jobs) are not profitable, they either fold up shop or go somewhere else where they can be profitable. Blame the tick, not the dog.


The minimum wage doesn't help things. I would like to know who decided that a person should be able to live comfortably on running a register or cleaning toilets? 

I thought those were jobs for students and retired folks looking for some extra scratch? When I saw that thing a few weeks back about fast food workers wanting $15/hr I wanted to go slap them with a hot fryer basket.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

BottomBouncer said:


> The minimum wage doesn't help things. I would like to know who decided that a person should be able to live comfortably on running a register or cleaning toilets?
> 
> I thought those were jobs for students and retired folks looking for some extra scratch? When I saw that thing a few weeks back about fast food workers wanting $15/hr I wanted to go slap them with a hot fryer basket.


If someone could find a mcdonalds worker who could put the damn fish on the bun straight they would be worth 15/hr.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

imalt said:


> If someone could find a mcdonalds worker who could put the damn fish on the bun straight they would be worth 15/hr.


Or remember the BBQ sauce for the nuggets, straws, know the difference between a large cup and medium, not put the pickles and onions on the burger, not dump the entire container of salt on the fries....this could go on forever


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## Bonecrusher (Aug 7, 2010)

I've got a full time job and I have been working a part time for the last 3 years. Recently my part time job has gone away due to lower production. I have been looking for a decent part time job for the last 3 months and haven't had any luck. Another couple weeks and I will be at Mcdonald's. You all want fries with that?


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

Bonecrusher said:


> I've got a full time job and I have been working a part time for the last 3 years. Recently my part time job has gone away due to lower production. I have been looking for a decent part time job for the last 3 months and haven't had any luck. Another couple weeks and I will be at Mcdonald's. You all want fries with that?


That sucks dude. Good luck. I don't know when fedex and ups start hiring their extra holiday season employees but you could try there. At least might hold you over for a few months until you find something better.


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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

Bonecrusher said:


> I've got a full time job and I have been working a part time for the last 3 years. Recently my part time job has gone away due to lower production. I have been looking for a decent part time job for the last 3 months and haven't had any luck. Another couple weeks and I will be at Mcdonald's. You all want fries with that?


Not laughing at your situation but your last line gave me a smile.


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## jshbuckeye (Feb 27, 2005)

http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/careers/Pages/index.aspx I started thereabout 3 yrs ago it has its issues but it is there everyday, and there will be a big hiring faze soon, the new james cancer cent is set to open in december of 2014, alot of different opportunities for people. i started in Maintenance, landed a job in the construction shop, and now take care of the pcych hospital. I cant say enough good about working at osu. Put in your apps have a resume ready for the particular job you are applying for. If you apply for the maint or Const jobs send me a pm I can give you some key info they are looking for.


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## 68rocks (Aug 2, 2013)

Check your local IBEW electrical union for TeleData Apprenticeship (Phone Guy/IT...no electricity..no residential) you start around $12/hr and they school you along with on the job training. After your 3 yr (raises every 6mo's) you will be topped out around $30/hr take home with top notch benefits. I have been in that field for about 20yrs and we are so busy we cant get enough guys! Installing network cabling & fiber optics...technology improvements will never flatline...Good Luck!


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

I doubt if any of you are interested in this type work. But every month I get newsletters from both UMWA and Consol Energy. over the next few years Consol will be hiring over a thousand a year.. These are good Union jobs. I think they start trainees out at like 60K a year an if a guy will get off his duff and work OT by 2nd year you will rake in over 100k,,,, Consol has started a special school that is located underground on a section just for training so new area hires will more familiar with the environment and be much safer to themselves and coworkers. Anyone interested can go to Consol's site and get more info and application, they are located in more or less tristate area of Wv-Pa-Oh. I am doing everything possible t get 2 of my grandsons and a granddaughter signed on there.


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

I'm suprised at the amount of degree bashing. A lot of places/industries require a post HS degree for any position and the piece of paper is only a tiny part of a " qualified applicants" credentials and experience that make them a candidate for a position. 

Company I work fore requires 2yr deg for lower level work, 4yr professional degree for the most positions, and a third or more of the company has a masters and professional licence or certification. 

Having a degree shows that you can stick with something and that you know how to learn while having a HS diploma shows you completed the state minimum requirements.

For the O&G comment I made this morning. If you drive into the oilfield areas, there are countless people of a dynamic educational background working. Paving roads, building pipelines, building well pads, drilling wells, surveying, studying, moving materials, building gas stations, hotels, restaurants, and processing plants. Others working in the hotels and restaurants, others working in the supply chain. Even trivial things like free hats and beer coozies are made,printed, pt handled by someone





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## mck1975 (Jun 18, 2009)

BottomBouncer said:


> Yeah, unions are the reason Toyota and Honda are doing so well. Wait...


Good Call, and absolutely agree!


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## mck1975 (Jun 18, 2009)

ostbucks98 said:


> yeah the unions are what set the scale for those employers benefits and salary. without unions there would be no 40 hour work week,paid vacations,paid holidays,healthcare benefits,overtime premium. im not in a union but not dumb enough to not appreciate what that labor movement did for this country.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The problem is the unions have become everything they fought against.


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Computer Operator is a magical job.

You sit, wait for a job to cancel, then open a ticket, and contact support.
They have to fix it, not the Operator.

Facts: No school teaches you how to be a Computer Operator.

You simply need to get your foot in the door of a Data Center.

You might start out as a Operator Trainee (Mounting tapes, or printing paper)

Then after a promotional increase, and a annual review increase...

You make Operator... (And begin to run the Console) 

Then after a promotional increase, and a annual review increase...

You make Sr. Operator.

Then after a promotional increase, and a annual review increase...

You make Lead Operator.

All still without stepping into management.

Some good Data Centers don't even have you print, or mount tapes.
That is all done outside the room.

What can you make in Columbus as an Operator?? 50-70 Grand.
The Computer Operators in Somerset NJ were crossing 120 Grand a year with their overtime. A memo was put out to watch our overtime now.
We require a manager to authorize it now.

I am using my high-school 'General' diploma!!

Computer Operator: Sit in the chair, officially allowed to watch Hulu and Justin TV at work. Only rule, don't miss a job going down!

Computer Operator FTW!


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## Weekender#1 (Mar 25, 2006)

We have an opening for a Sales Rep, although the job is based out of Grand Rapids, MI. The Assignment covers from Grand Rapids north including Traverse City, northern LP and the Upper P of Michigan, last rep lived in Big Rapids and needed to live a little north of there, calling on retail accounts as well as Wholesale/suppliers. For a person that likes fishing, my god, last year I landed salmon out of 5 different rivers, just in the weekday evenings. A lot of travel with 3 nights a week in a hotel, you pick-em. Company car, expenses. Not a commisioned job. It is in the Tobacco field. I am not sure of the starting pay, I am a chain sales rep in the same area. 
So if I can help one person get a job I am happy at doing that, I am not a hiring manager, just a worker, it is tough out there and this job can help someone get a grip on life. 

http://www.liggettvectorbrands.com/home.jsp


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

> Computer Operator FTW!


Put "the website is down" into youtube for some really sweet inside jokes.

NSFW language


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

I've said it before, but Unions can make or break a place. In some places they demand too much and kill the job/company. Still, if it weren't for the unions in other places you would think they workers were slaves when you saw the conditions, pay, and hours demanded of them.

Mr. A


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## Bigjoe (Aug 13, 2011)

If you can get a Class 'B' license go to ODOT. They are hiring seasonals for plowing and Highway maint. Starts around $12/hr I think and if your not lazy can get hired F.T. Haven't had a raise in 9 years but can put some OT into comp. for good fishing weather. PM me if anyone wants more info.


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## rizzman (Oct 25, 2007)

Mr. A said:


> I've said it before, but Unions can make or break a place. In some places they demand too much and kill the job/company. Still, if it weren't for the unions in other places you would think they workers were slaves when you saw the conditions, pay, and hours demanded of them.
> 
> Mr. A


And I'm sure any of these "union bashers" would jump at a good union job if it came up.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

rizzman said:


> And I'm sure any of these "union bashers" would jump at a good union job if it came up.


As do the unemployed Union guys jump at the good non-union jobs when they are available, always. One of the very best con jobs ever perpetrated on America has been the deliberate artistic division of the American worker with both Employers and their brother American workers. All done with a plan and a cause. What a pathetic shame.


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## mitchamus (Aug 13, 2007)

Good luck in finding a job.
I don't think your age matters as printing has just changed used to be trade.
There are still a couple shops but
None are willing to pay.


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## wally72 (Apr 24, 2004)

Thanks for all the replies, I didn't know it would get the number of response's as it did. I had told a lot of the other employees a couple of years ago not to get comfortable as we were working in a dieing industry. When I started it was a family owned business and the customer came first and the owner cared about their employees. After it was bought by a large company all that went away, it was run faster and let little mistakes go. Just make money for the big boss's.
I would just like to find something as close as I can so I don't drive an hour to get there. At 59 I don't think I can do the same work I did when I was in my twenty's. I'll find something it may not be what I want but something will come up. Thanks for letting me vent.


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## timjr (Jul 23, 2009)

From what I understand the guy that had a big hand in running the place to the ground got a job at a different plant with the same company. Way to go McManus. Or as I like to call him McAnus
When I left that company I drove 75 miles one way for work for 2 1/2 years to Cincinnati then an hour for 2 years to Dayton. I finally just got into a different line of work and can walk to work.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## jonnythfisherteen2 (Mar 5, 2011)

Mr. A said:


> College is over rated. I'm lucky enough to work in the field I majored in, however I am under earning when you consider I have a masters that makes me more qualified than my boss when you look at our resumes.
> 
> I've interviewed at several places only to be told that due to my qualifications they believe that I would be under employed and leave.
> 
> ...


this is what I was thinking. would hate to go into debt and waste away my young years just to get a piece o' paper that doesn't do much. they literally try to push college onto us in school, and when I say I just want to do something else, I get a weird look and a rant about why I should. Riiight.


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## koonzie99 (Apr 25, 2012)

Wally like you i run a printing press. I looked up your loction and its probly to far for you but next time we are looking for a new operator i will let you know if you want.

Iv only ever worked at one place been here since i was in H.S. started as the cleaning kid sweep floors and empted trash for a while. Then when i was about done with school they asked me if i wanted to go full time and run a press. I did that for a few years then about 3 years ago they got a new digital press. So I busted my A$$ to get that press and it worked out. 

One of the best preks about my place is the owner is a hunter fishermen so he has no problem with letting me out early or take a day off to do some hunting or fishing.

Good luck out there and i hope it works out for ya.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

We can complain all we want, no matter what your view on the Unions is, the one thing that has benefitted us all, is the "Union Wage"!
None of us that are employed and making good money would have that if it wasn't for the Unions...if Big Business had it's way we would all be making 10 bucks an hour.
THEY CAN'T DO THIS because it would DESTROY the WORLD economy!
After the US got off the Gold Standard, we bargained with the World to become the Main User of Goods and to let loose of our production capability...treaties gave away our production and allowed businesses to increase profitibility by building elsewhere, while still charging a higher price in American markets and lower prices in other countries!
Call it a conspiracy or whatever but WE WORKING AMERICANS, got the raw end of that deal! 
Now that the "PLAN" has developed "Holes" and "Leaks" and entire economies are in a flux, it will be interesting to see what we give up next!
Normally a GOOD WAR will bring prosperity to the World again! LOL


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

PapawSmith said:


> As do the unemployed Union guys jump at the good non-union jobs when they are available, always. One of the very best con jobs ever perpetrated on America has been the deliberate artistic division of the American worker with both Employers and their brother American workers. All done with a plan and a cause. What a pathetic shame.


Unions weren't a con job pulled over on the American worker when the unions started. The workers were treated so bad there was no choice but to band together and form unions. Before you close your mind, research the working conditions up to the beginning of the rise in unions. I guarantee you would not work in places like those, only you now have a choice. Back then, they didn't.

I still stand by my comments and believe that unions have their place, and they can make, or break, a place to work.

But think about corporate America's greed. Do you honestly think that those companies would hurt their wallets if they had nothing stopping them from increasing profits at the expense of the American workers? No, the answer is no. 

So instead of hating unions for what they may or may not be, think about the benefits you enjoy because of them.


Mr. A


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

Dont feel too bad, I got out of the Marine Corps after four years and just finished a bachelors and MBA a couple months ago, still looking for work. Seem to be over qualified on education and under qualified on experience. At least as far as they are concerned. Apparently management experience only counts when you are wearing a shirt and a tie...


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Mr. A said:


> Unions weren't a con job pulled over on the American worker when the unions started.
> But think about corporate America's greed. Do you honestly think that those companies would hurt their wallets if they had nothing stopping them from increasing profits at the expense of the American workers? No, the answer is no.
> So instead of hating unions for what they may or may not be, think about the benefits you enjoy because of them. Mr. A


A couple things. First you misunderstand what I said, I never said unions are a con job nor did I anywhere indicate I hate them. We do a good bit of union construction work, probably more than open shop, and I understand this issue well. The con job I speak of is the deliberate division of workers against workers and workers against employers by those that benefit by this chasm. It is the exact same effort, and just as effective, as those employed by race-baiters. Cause the groups to separate and despise each other to create a need for the separators. I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for the union contractors as well as the union tradesman and women that we work with on our projects, but I largely despise their management and organizational teams. 

Also, this notion that if there was not one of these wanna be mafia thugs holding a gun to our heads we would all pay our workers minimum wage is purely BS. Those that believe that do so only because they are told that, not because they have any knowledge of how any business folk either run or want to run their business. For every 1920's coal mine operator that wanted the National Guard to shoot his unruly employees there was a Henry Ford that believed that the people building his cars should be able to afford to buy one. Most of the people that employ most of the other people are no different than you, they just work longer hours, try a little harder, and take a few more risks to achieve whatever their goal might be. Seldom do their plans to achieve these goals contain a design to take advantage of others. There are exceptions to this, of course, and even most business owners hate these bastards too.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Intimidator said:


> We can complain all we want, no matter what your view on the Unions is, the one thing that has benefitted us all, is the "Union Wage"!


I didn't read your entire post. But if unions weren't causing wages to be so high, maybe things wouldn't cost so much.


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Socom said:


> Dont feel too bad, I got out of the Marine Corps after four years and just finished a bachelors and MBA a couple months ago, still looking for work. Seem to be over qualified on education and under qualified on experience. At least as far as they are concerned. Apparently management experience only counts when you are wearing a shirt and a tie...


Cintas would hire you in a heart beat.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

BottomBouncer said:


> But if unions weren't causing wages to be so high, maybe things wouldn't cost so much.


Yea... I am being paid a high wage, which makes the price of food so high, yet the company earns billions of dollars a year. In fact they bought out another grocery chain for something like 3 billion in an "all CASH deal". Argument that unions are causing high prices is crap.

Is my union as effective as I think they should be, No. Majority of the employees think they are bunch of P*****s. But, when it comes down to it, the employees can get involved and force change, but they choose not to even bother voting when a new contract is up. Never understood why you(the employee) complains about conditions and yet, wont even vote on a contract.


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## Canoerower (Jun 28, 2011)

If unions aren't con jobs why has everyone been investiigated and charges brought by the gov? Honestly the only way unions work is if the people have a backbone, if not then they destroy companies. Yes I've been union before and hated it, they take a chunk outta my pay and for what protection? I've learned that why strike? This is your job, how you pay your bills, so why bite the hand that feeds? Why put yourself out of a job for what a couple extra vacation days. It just doesn't make sense. Another thing is they did ruin the American workforce by hurting the companies at every chance. Thsts why when clinton opened te trade and tax breaks for compamies to head over seas the lumber yard couldnt kerp up with the plywood demand lol. because they could get out from under the unions. I knew guys that worked for car manufacturers that made 100+ a year to work on the line, if it shut down they sat there. Now their out of a job and a few are or on the verge of homeless because they tossed their money into nothing. My gramps and uncles and even now my mom and aunt and uncle are union. They make a good wage 14 or more and always vote strike, how can you pay your bils with no job?Some will say that I'm wrong but I've seen it I've seen many companies shut their doors that were union. If the unions were so useful where's those jobs?

By the way I'm unemployed because my union couldn't reach a deal, so we strikes and the companies closed their doors because of " nonstarter losses and not being able to produce" so the shut down for a year and reopened in the same building under new name with new employees. Funny thing not one of us original workers got our jobs back. When we went to thfeds they told us to bad it's your own fault. Truth is it was we had a great job, great pay great hours, if we went home early we still got paid, paid hour lunches, overtime when we wanted the whole nine yards. I voted no strike by the way but we strikes by one vote, a absentee of a guy who had 8 months of vacation saved up and was retiring in 2 weeks. The reason the Strike, they wanted to cut our lunch by 15 minutes and guys were mad because they couldn't hit the bar for a quick one!! No lie.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> this is what I was thinking. *would hate to go into debt and waste away my young years just to get a piece o' paper that doesn't do much*. they literally try to push college onto us in school, and when I say I just want to do something else, I get a weird look and a rant about why I should. Riiight.


Going to college doesn't guarantee you a good job but NOT going to college will guarantee you to not be eligible for certain jobs. There is a whole world out there you will automatically be blocked from.
As I went through life I watched the kids that I went to school with. On average the kids with college out earned the ones with out. Don't get me wrong I know some very successful people without college but overall the college kids seemed to do better. Here's an example: one young man I know with college makes $60,000 a year, both his brothers didn't go to college & struggle to make $14.00 hr
I'm almost 62 and regret to this day my decision to not go to college. I insisted both of my kids go to college. Now both are married and their spouses went to college. Both of their families are doing well in Without college they would not have the jobs or life they have.
Your life is what you make it.


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## Socom (Nov 3, 2005)

BottomBouncer said:


> Cintas would hire you in a heart beat.


I actually applied for a sales position earlier this week. I did get a notification when they checked out my LinkedIn profile, but haven't heard from them


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Mr. A said:


> Unions weren't a con job pulled over on the American worker when the unions started. The workers were treated so bad there was no choice but to band together and form unions. Before you close your mind, research the working conditions up to the beginning of the rise in unions. I guarantee you would not work in places like those, only you now have a choice. Back then, they didn't.
> 
> I still stand by my comments and believe that unions have their place, and they can make, or break, a place to work.
> 
> ...


Fully AGREE!
OH-


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

crappiedude said:


> Going to college doesn't guarantee you a good job but NOT going to college will guarantee you to not be eligible for certain jobs. There is a whole world out there you will automatically be blocked from.
> As I went through life I watched the kids that I went to school with. On average the kids with college out earned the ones with out. Don't get me wrong I know some very successful people without college but overall the college kids seemed to do better. Here's an example: one young man I know with college makes $60,000 a year, both his brothers didn't go to college & struggle to make $14.00 hr
> I'm almost 62 and regret to this day my decision to not go to college. I insisted both of my kids go to college. Now both are married and their spouses went to college. Both of their families are doing well in Without college they would not have the jobs or life they have.
> Your life is what you make it.


This is off subject from the original op but probably the best reply yet. Very very true indeed and a great explanation at that. It took me 18 years of experience to get an interview for the position I hold now. A college grad is eligible for the interview straight out of college. I never did get a degree and am not sure if I would change that or not but please dont ever think college is a wast of time or money. Its like anything else, you only get out of it what you put in it and it definitly gives you a advantage.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

BottomBouncer said:


> I didn't read your entire post. But if unions weren't causing wages to be so high, maybe things wouldn't cost so much.


Companies have proved this not to be true...Does Nike charge less for Air Jordans because they are made in Sweat Shops overseas for pennies...No! Like most companies, Third World Wages only increase Profit...and the workers suffer!

Do Automotive Manufacturers who build in Mexico and pay their employees 68 dollars per 45 hour work week, charge you less for that car, then they do one built at a US plant paying a person 1000 dollars a week plus benefits...NO!

I understand being "Profitable"...if a company can make a nice profit at an American plant paying Union wages...then they are just "Making a Killing" off the sweat of Non-Union or lower class workers...and people are trying to tell us that BiG Companies care about something other than Record Profits and Stockholder dividends...Come-On!


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

crappiedude said:


> Going to college doesn't guarantee you a good job but NOT going to college will guarantee you to not be eligible for certain jobs. There is a whole world out there you will automatically be blocked from.
> As I went through life I watched the kids that I went to school with. On average the kids with college out earned the ones with out. Don't get me wrong I know some very successful people without college but overall the college kids seemed to do better. Here's an example: one young man I know with college makes $60,000 a year, both his brothers didn't go to college & struggle to make $14.00 hr
> I'm almost 62 and regret to this day my decision to not go to college. I insisted both of my kids go to college. Now both are married and their spouses went to college. Both of their families are doing well in Without college they would not have the jobs or life they have.
> Your life is what you make it.


You are correct...even if you just go to a community college, it is better than not going at all! 
When and If the economy ever picks up, a college degree will quickly pay for itself again!


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## youngunner (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm a current college student now with three majors including sociology, political science and business management. Also taking classes to get my real estate license with hopes it may lead to something. Only have one year left and am scared to death of what the job markets might be like. I just hope one day retirement will be an option for my generation. 


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

Intimidator said:


> Companies have proved this not to be true...Does Nike charge less for Air Jordans because they are made in Sweat Shops overseas for pennies...No! Like most companies, Third World Wages only increase Profit...and the workers suffer!
> 
> Do Automotive Manufacturers who build in Mexico and pay their employees 68 dollars per 45 hour work week, charge you less for that car, then they do one built at a US plant paying a person 1000 dollars a week plus benefits...NO!
> 
> I understand being "Profitable"...if a company can make a nice profit at an American plant paying Union wages...then they are just "Making a Killing" off the sweat of Non-Union or lower class workers...and people are trying to tell us that BiG Companies care about something other than Record Profits and Stockholder dividends...Come-On!



If people are dumb enough to pay stupidly high prices for a pair of Nike shoes then I don't blame Nike or anyone else for milking every cent. The consumers set the prices by what they are willing to pay. If a company prices something too high then no one buys. I believe it is more of a consumer issue than a big business issue.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

crappiedude said:


> Going to college doesn't guarantee you a good job but NOT going to college will guarantee you to not be eligible for certain jobs. There is a whole world out there you will automatically be blocked from.


This is absolutely true. Not to say college works out for everyone, but more often than not it pays for itself many times over. One key is to pick a good field, and be smart with the student loans. Personally, I got a 2 year degree in a field I knew I could find a job in, and stopped at that point. I had less than $10k in loans which I paid off years ago, and now making a fair amount more than average for this area. I didnt see it being worth the 8 years (part time) and thousands of dollars to get the 4 year degree for the minor difference it was going to make for ME. One thing to keep in mind, for every job out there that doesnt require any sort of degree, think about how many other people qualify for that same job. Unless you happen to have past experience for that specific job, every person looking for a job could be qualified. 




Intimidator said:


> suffer!
> 
> Do Automotive Manufacturers who build in Mexico and pay their employees 68 dollars per 45 hour work week, charge you less for that car, then they do one built at a US plant paying a person 1000 dollars a week plus benefits...NO!
> 
> I understand being "Profitable"...if a company can make a nice profit at an American plant paying Union wages...then they are just "Making a Killing" off the sweat of Non-Union or lower class workers...and people are trying to tell us that BiG Companies care about something other than Record Profits and Stockholder dividends...Come-On!


Um, yes they do. Do you have any idea what a car would cost if 100% of the work and parts were done by union workers? Very few of us could afford cars. If you havent noticed, the unionized auto companies havent exactly been making a killing the last 5 years or so. Now make no mistake, Im not suggesting that all of their problems stemmed from the unions. Not at all. But billions upon billions of dollars are wasted because of unions. 
I know that the anti-corporate attitude is popular, but I dont think many people really have a grasp what all is involved in the automobile business, and Im sure other businesses as well. Sure, there are certainly greedy corporate executives out there that couldnt care less for those of us out there actually doing the work, only looking at their bottom line and quarterly bonuses. But that certainly isnt the case across the board, and I dare say its the exception, not the rule.


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## partlyable (Mar 2, 2005)

crappiedude said:


> Going to college doesn't guarantee you a good job but NOT going to college will guarantee you to not be eligible for certain jobs. There is a whole world out there you will automatically be blocked from.
> As I went through life I watched the kids that I went to school with. On average the kids with college out earned the ones with out. Don't get me wrong I know some very successful people without college but overall the college kids seemed to do better. Here's an example: one young man I know with college makes $60,000 a year, both his brothers didn't go to college & struggle to make $14.00 hr
> I'm almost 62 and regret to this day my decision to not go to college. I insisted both of my kids go to college. Now both are married and their spouses went to college. Both of their families are doing well in Without college they would not have the jobs or life they have.
> Your life is what you make it.


I just graduated college and I have to say it was a great decision for me. I think understand that it cost alot of money to go to college and paying the money back is hard. But I fully believe if you choose a smart major that will help you reach a quality job that is in need. The results will be better than not going to school. With that said I have friends with technical school degrees that are doing very well or themselves and have been working for 2 more years than me. Everyone is different but for me it has been beneficial. 


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

partlyable said:


> But I fully believe *if you choose a smart major *that will help you reach a quality job that is in need. The results will be better than not going to school. With that said *I have friends with technical school degrees that are doing very well *or themselves and have been working for 2 more years than me. Everyone is different but for me it has been beneficial.
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





M.Magis said:


> This is absolutely true. Not to say college works out for everyone, but more often than not it pays for itself many times over. *One key is to pick a good field, and be smart with the student loans*. Personally, I got a 2 year degree in a field I knew I could find a job in, and stopped at that point. I had less than $10k in loans which I paid off years ago, and now making a fair amount more than average for this area.
> 
> 
> > I think this is the key. You don't need to over educate yourself but post HS education is a real plus.
> ...


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

Well I worked at a university full time for 10 years and then went back and finished up my degree. I have a BS (lol) in Parks, Recreation and Tourism Management. Talk about a hard field to be in. But I worked for years in maintenance and retail and really wanted to do what I wanted. I did it the smart way and worked in the field while I went to school, got a ton of certifications and volunteered a bunch.

I got lucky and landed a part time job in February that turned into a full time union job with benefits at a well off city recreation department. By that I mean we have money to actually run programs and build/maintain our parks.

I make twice what I made this time last year. But if you asked me a year ago where i was going I would have been really unsure. I work hard and make smart decisions. The diploma just backs up my work ethic and experience. So many people I went to school with did not work in the field they were going to school for and still don't have a job or went back to school for a masters deg. A masters is becoming a new standard because people can't find jobs and are just staying in school. I had grad school lined up and was going to be a graduate assistant until I was offered the job. I would never pay to go to grad school but there are bunch of people that would and do. 

I don't know if the price tag for my education was worth it yet. But I am making the most money I have ever made in my life and have a full time job that I don't mind going to everyday. Sure it is hard some days but I was teaching children a sport tonight and had fun with them. So hopefully I have a purpose and I do enjoy what I do. Hopefully it will just get better.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Been in Management in the Automotive industry all my life, worked for GM, BMW, and now a Truck Manufacturer...Father was a Teamster driver, friends are Union and Company, so I get the benefit of BOTH worlds.

Union Wage on a New Car including "Perks", "Benefits", and other glorified Union Bennies is 10-12 percent of total cost....If you make a massive cut and CHOP 50% of everything that a Union worker has, the car price would only drop 5%. 
If you dropped component costs only 1%, the Car price would drop 9%.
Management pay and benefits are more cost that that of the actual worker, then add engineering, accounting, AND MARKETING costs, which are also more!

This is why I get tired of people bashing the Union Wage...because normally they have no idea what they are talking about!
I understand there are things wrong with the Union and some of the Union rule...but this is normally to protect what they do have because of the EARNED MIS-Trust of BIG Business....maybe BIG Business should spin the truth also!





M.Magis
{Um, yes they do. Do you have any idea what a car would cost if 100% of the work and parts were done by union workers? Very few of us could afford cars. If you haven&#8217;t noticed, the unionized auto companies haven&#8217;t exactly been &#8220;making a killing&#8221; the last 5 years or so. Now make no mistake, I&#8217;m not suggesting that all of their problems stemmed from the unions. Not at all. But billions upon billions of dollars are &#8220;wasted&#8221; because of unions. 
I know that the &#8220;anti-corporate&#8221; attitude is popular, but I don&#8217;t think many people really have a grasp what all is involved in the automobile business, and I&#8217;m sure other businesses as well. Sure, there are certainly greedy corporate executives out there that couldn&#8217;t care less for those of us out there actually doing the work, only looking at their bottom line and quarterly bonuses. But that certainly isn&#8217;t the case across the board, and I dare say it&#8217;s the exception, not the rule.}[/QUOTE]


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

If you work in the auto industry, then you and I both know those are "creative" numbers, based on every worker actually working 40 hours a week. That's a fairy tale. I'm not suggesting that union wages or benefits are the problem. It's the politics. When you have people clocking in for an 8 hour shift and spending the day in the lunch room, all because of a contract, you have a problem. Unions didn't have to be the dirty word they've become. Greed, laziness, and ego of the union leaders drove them to this.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

M.Magis said:


> If you work in the auto industry, then you and I both know those are "creative" numbers, based on every worker actually working 40 hours a week. That's a fairy tale. I'm not suggesting that union wages or benefits are the problem. It's the politics. When you have people clocking in for an 8 hour shift and spending the day in the lunch room, all because of a contract, you have a problem. Unions didn't have to be the dirty word they've become. Greed, laziness, and ego of the union leaders drove them to this.


Labor agreements have changed, our UAW has been neutered, none of our workers even the stewards get to stand around idle. There is now "right of assignment" and "check out" for Union duties...jobs are based on time studies that fills a workers full 7hrs and 30 minutes a day that they are working.
It's just like the rest of society...10 percent, screw it up for the rest of us!

I also hear how BAD Union people can't be fired etc....with documentation and time it can be done...I have personally fired 6 that did not get back through the steps process.
So, if people are not working, doing a good job, etc...the company needs to take a look at itself and it's management....the tools to work with the Unions are there, if they want.


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## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Intimidator said:


> Labor agreements have changed, our UAW has been neutered, none of our workers even the stewards get to stand around idle. There is now "right of assignment" and "check out" for Union duties...jobs are based on time studies that fills a workers full 7hrs and 30 minutes a day that they are working.
> It's just like the rest of society...10 percent, screw it up for the rest of us!
> 
> I also hear how BAD Union people can't be fired etc....with documentation and time it can be done...I have personally fired 6 that did not get back through the steps process.
> So, if people are not working, doing a good job, etc...the company needs to take a look at itself and it's management....the tools to work with the Unions are there, if they want.


Exactly! A union can not stop a person from getting fired for "just cause". If an employee breaks a company rule that he/she agreed to upon employment, the company has every right to fire said employee. And the union really has no fight. If the company chooses not to "push" the rule with a certain employee, then the next guy to break it gets fired, that's when the company has shot themselves in the foot. I see it everyday...

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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

But they actually have to break a rule of some sort, right? For every job, there should be a standard that must be met. When we have someone out here in the &#8220;real world&#8221; that isn&#8217;t doing their job good enough, they get to go find another job. We don&#8217;t wait for them to beak a rule because most are smart enough not to.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

M.Magis said:


> But they actually have to break a rule of some sort, right? For every job, there should be a standard that must be met. When we have someone out here in the &#8220;real world&#8221; that isn&#8217;t doing their job good enough, they get to go find another job. We don&#8217;t wait for them to beak a rule because most are smart enough not to.


Do you drive the speed limit, every day? Some people take advantage of ANY situation.
I don't think any of us are destined for Sainthood anytime soon!

If a person doesn't perform, it is my job to make sure they do...whether it's Management OR Union!
We have a Quality and Production Standard...if it's not met, it is my butt...and "the smelly stuff" trickles downhill.
Before ANYONE comes to work for me...I tell them what is expected...I also tell them that if they feel that they might issues with that, they may want to go somewhere else now...I have my work assignments down to the minute and that's what expected of you...In my world, it's Black and White and MOST people like it that way!
For poor work performance, we have 5 steps...and three can all happen in the same day...verbal warning, written warning, 3 day suspension, 10 day and termination....Firing 6 people in 30 yrs, is not bad...I don't feel bad either because they were told what was expected and it was their decision to go the entire 5 steps....so they must not have wanted to be in a good paying Union job!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Now come on, you know I&#8217;m not talking about everyone being perfect. We all know the guys that show up, do the least amount of work possible, and bitch about how everything is against them. Even the suggestion of a change is met with the threat of a grievance. These people do nothing but bring moral down and it should never be tolerated. But not only is it allowed in most union places, but more often than not it&#8217;s the most senior guys that act like this. I&#8217;m not saying this is the case in all union shops, but I&#8217;ve never seen it anywhere but in a union shop. I just think there&#8217;s too much protection for poor workers. There shouldn't have to be 5 steps to get rid of someone.


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## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

M.Magis said:


> Now come on, you know Im not talking about everyone being perfect. We all know the guys that show up, do the least amount of work possible, and bitch about how everything is against them. Even the suggestion of a change is met with the threat of a grievance. These people do nothing but bring moral down and it should never be tolerated. But not only is it allowed in most union places, but more often than not its the most senior guys that act like this. Im not saying this is the case in all union shops, but Ive never seen it anywhere but in a union shop. I just think theres too much protection for poor workers. There shouldn't have to be 5 steps to get rid of someone.


In our plant, these guys get away with it because the company feels like they have bigger fish to fry. So they let the small stuff go on until it builds into something bigger and eventually explodes. Problem is, when it comes down to arbitration, the company pulls up all these complaints that weren't dealt with immediately, and they've now become moot points. Basically the "if it wasn't a big deal then, why are you bringing it up now?" Type of debate. Like was said, there are steps of discipline that need to be followed. If they aren't followed from the start for everyone, they become weak, and the union "appears" to have protected a problem worker. When the reality of it is, the company was too busy or just not interested to go through the steps when it was something looked at as minor. Union members that do their jobs and appreciate what the union is really there for, tend to not want those "problem workers" within their ranks, because those are the few that tend to give unions and the membership a bad name.

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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

M.Magis said:


> Now come on, you know I&#8217;m not talking about everyone being perfect. We all know the guys that show up, do the least amount of work possible, and bitch about how everything is against them. Even the suggestion of a change is met with the threat of a grievance. These people do nothing but bring moral down and it should never be tolerated. But not only is it allowed in most union places, but more often than not it&#8217;s the most senior guys that act like this. I&#8217;m not saying this is the case in all union shops, but I&#8217;ve never seen it anywhere but in a union shop. I just think there&#8217;s too much protection for poor workers. There shouldn't have to be 5 steps to get rid of someone.


Yes, you do need 5 steps...I've had people who were just going through a bad stretch in their life and needed a wake up call...EVERYONE has a bad day/week/month...your job is to Support your workers in any way...my job is not to take a high paying job from someone...it's to make production and meet quality expectations....I have ways to buy you time if you have personal problems or issues, I'm not a cold blooded killer, I was raised "by the Golden Rule"!
But, I have no use for lazy people who don't want to work....and I'm their worst enemy! Part of my job is to know the difference and know what buttons to push.....I also do not micro-manage, you know the expectations and your job...that way people control their own future!
IMHO, those people in Management who cannot work with a Union, are lazy and not fit for leadership!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Wouldn&#8217;t be easier and better for everyone if there wasn&#8217;t so much red tape to deal with?
You can&#8217;t convince me 5 steps are necessary. The vast majority of the American workplace is non-union, and we get along just fine. It takes having the right people in the right positions, but things like this are dealt with every single day. Bosses talk to their people, and if someone is going through a rough patch that&#8217;s fine. But habitual azzholes or lazy people are fired, period.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

M.Magis said:


> Wouldnt be easier and better for everyone if there wasnt so much red tape to deal with?
> You cant convince me 5 steps are necessary. The vast majority of the American workplace is non-union, and we get along just fine. It takes having the right people in the right positions, but things like this are dealt with every single day. Bosses talk to their people, and if someone is going through a rough patch thats fine. But habitual azzholes or lazy people are fired, period.


No. Yes. It is because of unions that the "other" majority is fine. There are few people where I work that are slow? But, they are giving 100%. They are doing the best they can. If the company had their way, they would have been gone long time ago. Is that a good policy? We are just f***ing humans and do the best we can. Yet some computer and smart graduate in corporate who has never had to do manual labor can dictate what and how hard we should work? My manager gets a huge Bonus if certain goals are met, all on my back, my associates. Would I feel different if that bonus was distributed amongst associates? Probably. I will also say the store managers are also on a grueling program. I wont put all labour problems on them. They dont produce, they are out.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

M.Magis said:


> Wouldnt be easier and better for everyone if there wasnt so much red tape to deal with?
> You cant convince me 5 steps are necessary. The vast majority of the American workplace is non-union, and we get along just fine. It takes having the right people in the right positions, but things like this are dealt with every single day. Bosses talk to their people, and if someone is going through a rough patch thats fine. But habitual azzholes or lazy people are fired, period.


I don't have red tape...I can cover 3 steps in a day if needed, if your dumb butt gets suspended and loses 10 days pay and it doesn't make you think about your future then you need to be fired. 

Don't kid yourself....people get fired at Honda, Toyota, and BMW, every day....they follow the same kind of steps.
My buddies that work in other non Union production facilities also have the same kind of "Rules of Termination" that have to be followed.
Unless you bring a gun to work, fight, or some other crime, you get chance to save your job.


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## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Intimidator said:


> I don't have red tape...I can cover 3 steps in a day if needed, if your dumb butt gets suspended and loses 10 days pay and it doesn't make you think about your future then you need to fired.
> 
> Don't kid yourself....people get fired at Honda, Toyota, and BMW, every day....they follow the same kind of steps.
> My buddies that work in other non Union production facilities also have the same kind of "Rules of Termination" that have to be followed.
> Unless you bring a gun to work, fight, or some other crime, you get chance to save your job.


Not to mention, all occurrences are situational. Show up 3 minutes late? No big deal. Here's your write up and you have 4 to go. Fail a drug test? Say something derogatory to a female employee? Kick your boss in the face? No red tape needed. Your outta here!

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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Like I said, I have worked for Union and Non-Union Companies and the people are the same, you have people you don't have to say a word to and they just do their jobs, you have people that might need alittle more attention, and you have 10 percent that don't work for me long.
I'm sure the same goes for other businesses and society in general.

One last thing...any person or business who couldn't get work out of a Union or membership was piss poor to begin with. A company or business sat down and negotiated the contract...they could have packed up, moved, etc...but they BOTH agreed to every deal....MY EXPERIENCE IS...THAT THE UNIONS TOOK TIME TO READ, UNDERSTAND, AND KNEW THE CONTRACT BETTER THAN ANYONE IN THE COMPANY...if the company and most management took the time to read the contract they would have been able to deal with the Unions better...so all of the Corporate heads and Management that failed to read and understand "Their" Contract also, should have been fired for "Poor Work Performance"!
I know "My" contract just as well as my dept Union Stewards...we have VERY FEW issues!


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## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

Intimidator said:


> Like I said, I have worked for Union and Non-Union Companies and the people are the same, you have people you don't have to say a word to and they just do their jobs, you have people that might need alittle more attention, and you have 10 percent that don't work for me long.
> I'm sure the same goes for other businesses and society in general.
> 
> One last thing...any person or business who couldn't get work out of a Union or membership was piss poor to begin with. A company or business sat down and negotiated the contract...they could have packed up, moved, etc...but they BOTH agreed to every deal....MY EXPERIENCE IS...THAT THE UNIONS TOOK TIME TO READ, UNDERSTAND, AND KNEW THE CONTRACT BETTER THAN ANYONE IN THE COMPANY...if the company and most management took the time to read the contract they would have been able to deal with the Unions better...so all of the Corporate heads and Management that failed to read and understand "Their" Contract also, should have been fired for "Poor Work Performance"!
> I know "My" contract just as well as my dept Union Stewards...we have VERY FEW issues!


Here here!

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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

Intimidator.......Good people on both sides, and bad ones too.

Teamsters Local #284...


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm not trying to change anyones's mind, just pointing out that there are problems that are easily changed. But maybe they're just problems to me. When someone works at one place for so long, eventually the policies there seem like the "right" way to do things. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

hang_loose said:


> Intimidator.......Good people on both sides, and bad ones too.
> 
> Teamsters Local #284...


Agreed!

Magis
But Most people think the problems are with the Union, Leadership, or the Union Workers...this is normally not the case!
If you want to be confrontational with them then you will have a Battle and that helps no one. We have "Old Dogs" still here that love a good fight...WHY??? I never have understood that archaic way of thinking!
The Companies and Management started this way of doing business. "If you keep them riled up then they will do better work"...this is BS! These people learn fast that the Union Knows the contract and will bury you with it if you don't...then Management gets even more pissed! ALMOST ALWAYS, the fight was started by a Management person trying to prove a WRONG POINT that backfires!

When I first started here, alot of the Union workers were from my hometown...I either went to school with them, knew them, or their kids.
My first day, I was sitting with them at lunch talking about the upcoming football season...3 upper level bosses walked by and the workers all said "Your Busted"...I had no idea!
A few minutes later I was called to the office...The 3 bosses preceded to tell me that I should not associate with "THOSE" people and "they are the enemy"! "You won't get any work out of them if you don't bust their butts everyday" "You can't be THOSE people's friend"!
I was in shock, I told the bosses that I've known "Those" people most of my life and who I eat with has no bearing on my work performance...so fire me now or let me do my work! They're gone...I'm still here!
In Management if you show any kind of weakness you are also doomed...Management people for some reason are bloodthirsty...I guess it's true about getting alittle power and it going to your head...AND trust me, most poor decisions affecting a company are made by Management! There's ALOT of Management People with NO COMMON SENSE, for some reason!

For people to talk about Unions in a negative way without having been in one or knowing all the circumstances is criminal IMHO.
Take your breakdown of normal society and it's pretty much the same at any work place!
Most are good people that just want to do their job and be left alone, sometimes life happens and as a Manager you have to support them for the good of the team. You have to know and understand people to be a good Manager...if you are not a people person or lack social skills, you are doomed!
It's true that you have to treat people with respect and be fair but you also have to temper that with a No Bull approach when necessary!
I'm 52 and can do any job in my area...that is the only way you know the man assignments are correct, How do I tell someone to do a job when I have no Idea what it entails or how it should be done, I don't want someone struggling all day and not get the Quality or Production I need, and I don't expect someone else to help you...so I make sure things are fair and as close to even as possible.
I work with the Stewards to improve things and they do not "Bull" me because they know I am fair. Working with a Union is not Rocket Science, sometimes it is even easier because if you have a good track record and do the right things the Stewards will Back you!
I actually have more Spare time because my area runs so well...it takes alittle more time to do things right in the beginning but pays off well in the end!

For the Original Poster...go to school, even a community college to save a few bucks, get any job you can afford and do your best, someone will recognize your work or you will get valuable experience...in other words, build you future and then reap the rewards as you grow....and try to live "The Golden Rule" every day you can!


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## Jmsteele187 (Dec 22, 2011)

M.Magis said:


> Wouldnt be easier and better for everyone if there wasnt so much red tape to deal with?
> You cant convince me 5 steps are necessary. The vast majority of the American workplace is non-union, and we get along just fine. It takes having the right people in the right positions, but things like this are dealt with every single day. Bosses talk to their people, and if someone is going through a rough patch thats fine. But habitual azzholes or lazy people are fired, period.


Not being union and working for a big corporate chain, is exactly why I bust my a$$ everyday and get a crap wage with no real benefits. I've asked for a raise and was told that they don't really do that for my position. I was told to get more people in the door, to be even more profitable than I already am, to boost my bonus (really just a poor excuse for commission). But, there's a big trade off there. I'm the only person at my shop that does what I do, and more people in the door means I spend more time filling out paperwork instead of doing the work that actually brings in the money. I've worked plenty of jobs, some union and some not. Let me tell you , unions aren't there to protect lazy workers. They're there to protect workers from cheapskate companies that are too worried about lining their own pockets, than paying a decent , livable wage. I agree that it falls back on management to make sure the workers are living up to the expectations of the company. I'm also pretty sure that if your boss came up to you today and said "M.magis, you have a very negative attitude and it's bringing down the other workers. You're fired". You'd probably want those 5 steps.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Jmsteele187 said:


> Not being union and working for a big corporate chain, is exactly why I bust my a$$ everyday and get a crap wage with no real benefits. I've asked for a raise and was told that they don't really do that for my position. I was told to get more people in the door, to be even more profitable than I already am, to boost my bonus (really just a poor excuse for commission). But, there's a big trade off there. I'm the only person at my shop that does what I do, and more people in the door means I spend more time filling out paperwork instead of doing the work that actually brings in the money. I've worked plenty of jobs, some union and some not. Let me tell you , unions aren't there to protect lazy workers. They're there to protect workers from cheapskate companies that are too worried about lining their own pockets, than paying a decent , livable wage. I agree that it falls back on management to make sure the workers are living up to the expectations of the company. I'm also pretty sure that if your boss came up to you today and said "M.magis, you have a very negative attitude and it's bringing down the other workers. You're fired". You'd probably want those 5 steps.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


It sounds like you work for a crappy company. Being part of a union wouldnt change that. If my boss came to me and said I was fired for having a negative attitude, I probably deserved it. 
To clarify, Im not union but our shop guys are. Every single one of these guys here are great to work with, and in 15 years Ive never had one single problem. None of my opinions are based on my experiences here, but rather with experiences with some of the Big 3 plants. Maybe Im lucky and work for a company that doesnt treat people like crap. But we have a union plant and non-union plants so I get to see how they all operate. The non-union plant workers are treated no different than the unions guys. And everyone, for the most part, is happy. It doesnt take a union to make a good work place, it takes good workers and good management.


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

Once again a thread has been hijacked.

If anyone can help Wally72 find work, send him a PM. I'm sure he would appreciate it. 

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