# 2 surge protectors one outlet. is it safe?



## iam20fan (Jan 15, 2006)

moved weeks ago and i dont have many outlets. i will not have anything plugged in that needs a major amount of power. just tv,xbox,ps3,pc, modem etc..


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## lawrence1 (Jul 2, 2008)

I would think you would be alright with the devices you mentioned. No electric grills or anything like that. Every once in awhile hold your hand to the outlet and check it's temperture, warm is okay, hot is not.


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## JimmyMac (Feb 18, 2011)

You should be fine, I've got everything mentioned hooked up right next to me, plus a alarm clock and a filter for my fish tank.


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## Tokugawa (Apr 29, 2008)

if you overload the circuit, I'm sure a breaker in the residence or a breaker on a power strip will pop...it might be more dangerous to a Windows machine to suddenly lose power


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## Wow (May 17, 2010)

I use a 6 outlet surge protector above my garage workbench. If I overjuice it the protector turns off with no effect on the house breaker. I just have to reset it. I'd use it, unless you blow a breaker.--Tim..................................................................................................................................................................


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

MY house is set up where each 110 outlet will handle 3000 watts before a breaker pops. You can get 6 way surges that take up both plugs in the outlet that are very good or if the outlet is in a hidden area you can use surge strips that have multiple outlets and are better. 
Power surges and lightning strikes are 2 different beasts, most surge protectors are not fast enough to protect against lightning, lightning protectors are $$


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Half on-topic, as an alternative to the usual surge protector strip, there's a "squid" type where each plug is on its own short cord - the advantage being, you don't have bulky power supplies squeezing each other for space on the strip.


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

iam20fan said:


> i will not have anything plugged in that needs a major amount of power. just tv,xbox,ps3,pc, modem etc..


Every appliance has numbers adjacent to where the power cord attaches. Everyone is expected to sum those numbers. The sum should never exceed 13 amps or 1500 watts.

Depending on a circuit breaker tripping or feeling heat is equivalent to those who said the secondary O'rings on Challenger will protect everything. Never expect the emergency backup system (ie strip's breaker) to protect from fire.

Power strips must connect directly to the wall receptacle; must not be daisy chained.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

This house was built in 1964 and its electric circuits are inadequate compared to a new house. I don't like the way the few breakers carry large parts of the house - so lights upstairs dim when the microwave turns on in the kitchen.


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## starcraft67 (Jul 4, 2004)

Intimidator said:


> MY house is set up where each 110 outlet will handle 3000 watts before a breaker pops. You can get 6 way surges that take up both plugs in the outlet that are very good or if the outlet is in a hidden area you can use surge strips that have multiple outlets and are better.
> Power surges and lightning strikes are 2 different beasts, most surge protectors are not fast enough to protect against lightning, lightning protectors are $$


Sun appliances convinced my wife that we needed a lightning protector for the computer she had bought,I was upset...until 4 yrs later when lightning hit the tree across the street,and jumped to the transformer and blew out the neighbors electronics except ours. My wife gloated over that for awhile.
Always buy the best you can afford, alot cheaper than having to replace


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

starcraft67 said:


> ...until 4 yrs later when lightning hit the tree across the street,and jumped to the transformer and blew out the neighbors electronics except ours.


 If a protector protected your electronics, then other appliances (microwave, dishwasher, stove, GFCIs, dimmer switches, smoke detectors) were damaged. Or did she also buy invisible protectors for them?

Surge did damage to neighbors because that was a best connection to earth. Their appliances earthed a surge that did not need to obtain earth destructively via your appliances. Therefore your clocks, washing machine, and air conditioner also were not damaged. If her protector did anything, then those other unprotected appliances were damaged. A surge had no reason to hunt for earth destructively inside your house. A better connection to earth was via neighbor's appliances.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

FOSR said:


> Half on-topic, as an alternative to the usual surge protector strip, there's a "squid" type where each plug is on its own short cord - the advantage being, you don't have bulky power supplies squeezing each other for space on the strip.





Brilliant!


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## BASSINaDL (Aug 24, 2010)

buy a few fire exstigueshers


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

starcraft67 said:


> Sun appliances convinced my wife that we needed a lightning protector for the computer she had bought,I was upset...until 4 yrs later when lightning hit the tree across the street,and jumped to the transformer and blew out the neighbors electronics except ours. My wife gloated over that for awhile.
> Always buy the best you can afford, alot cheaper than having to replace


Yep, I know, I spent the extra money to get lightning protection after I lost 3 TV's and Audio/Video equipment when lightning came through my TV tower (used it for local Channels, now it is just a lightning rod to protect the house), ...alot of the surge protectors say they protect against lightning but when you looked at the ratings...they do not! 
There is an even faster level needed (and even bigger $$$) to protect against an EMP!


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Intimidator said:


> Yep, I know, I spent the extra money to get lightning protection after I lost 3 TV's and Audio/Video equipment when lightning came through my TV tower (used it for local Channels, now it is just a lightning rod to protect the house), ...


 View the figure in this application note. Even underground wires must be earthed before entering the building. Earthed directly with a wire. Or earthed with a 'whole house' protector. Then direct lightning strikes even to the tower cause no damage:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Intimidator said:


> MY house is set up where each 110 outlet will handle 3000 watts before a breaker pops.


 Meanwhile, each receptacle is only rated for appliances of 1560 or less. Yes, you can exceed rating because circuit breakers do not trip until power massively exceeds receptacle rating.

Anyone using the circuit breaker as an overload indicator is all but asking for a house fire. Circuit breakers are only emergency backup protection. Depending only on a circuit breaker to inform of an overload is why house fires have occurred.

A standard NEMA15-5 receptacle is not intended for 3000 watt loads.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

westom said:


> View the figure in this application note. Even underground wires must be earthed before entering the building. Earthed directly with a wire. Or earthed with a 'whole house' protector. Then direct lightning strikes even to the tower cause no damage:
> http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf


Tower was "Earthed" once I found out it was just a big lightning rod with a direct wire running into the house!


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

westom said:


> Meanwhile, each receptacle is only rated for appliances of 1560 or less. Yes, you can exceed rating because circuit breakers do not trip until power massively exceeds receptacle rating.
> 
> Anyone using the circuit breaker as an overload indicator is all but asking for a house fire. Circuit breakers are only emergency backup protection. Depending only on a circuit breaker to inform of an overload is why house fires have occurred.
> 
> A standard NEMA15-5 receptacle is not intended for 3000 watt loads.


Correct, each outlet AT MY HOUSE was set up to handle A Max of 3000 watts with 2 receps that should never draw more than half of that wattage. Each outlet has a safety breaker then the main.
My parents house burnt when I was a baby due to old wiring and when I built mine I "OverKilled" the safety systems. And yes, I did forget about the tower...and the need for surge protectors the first time around

I just meant that he can use a 6 recep surge protector if he doesn't come close to the rated wattage for the outlet.


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Intimidator said:


> Tower was "Earthed" once I found out it was just a big lightning rod with a direct wire running into the house!


 If a tower was earthed, then surge damage is easier. And a code violation.

Tower must be safety grounded (not earthed) for human safety. Surges must be earth grounded for transistor safety. To protect tower transistors means energy dissipates outside and in earth - far from appliances. Once that energy is permitted anywhere inside a building, then it goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances. A surge must be earthed before it enters a building. An earthed household appliance violates the National Electrical Code.

All should appreciate the problem. AC wires far down the street are a lightning rod connected to all household appliances. Lightning rod is part of a protection only when earthed. Where does every incoming wire get earthed before entering a building? Either incoming energy dissipates harmlessly outside. Or that energy is hunting destructively for earth via household appliances.

That is transistor safety. Human safety means not depending on the emergency backup system to protect anyone. Depending on a circuit breaker to identify an overload is foolish. For example, a 20 amp breaker may conduct 25 amps for up to two hours before that breaker trips. An overload. And assumes a breaker is still working according to specs.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Amps X Volts = Watts, right?


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

FOSR said:


> Amps X Volts = Watts, right?


 At a layman's level, yes. Once we add engineering concepts (ie power factor), then wires may have to provide more power than the appliance consumes. Therefore an appliance on a 20 amp (NEMA 15-5 receptacle) circuit must consume less than 1560 watts.

Your 1964 house, like a 1930 house, should provide more than enough power for that receptacle. However, an incandescent bulb dimming when a major appliance power cycles implies a defect has since been created. In rare cases, that defect might be a human safety threat. Fix the defect.

Nothing attached to appliances will solve that problem. Even 1930 wires should not cause incandescent bulb intensity changes when any appliance power cycles. Find and then fix that problem.


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## Dragons4u (Jul 18, 2011)

I have an older house as well, but anything that uses a large amount of power I installed it's own circuit and breaker. Lol, I think those receptacles are the only electrical circuits in the house that are up to code.
As for surge protectors, I think we only have one or two left in the house. Since UPSs' have come way down in price, I use those on the comp, xbox, entertainment center, and fish aquarium. Oh, and I have a lamp plugged into one. That way if I lose power, I can turn on the light to find the flashlights, candles, etc.
The most common one I'm running is APC 350, which will power my xbox and monitor for about twenty minutes, or the lamp for about an hour.
They also protect against brownouts and power surges, and some can be set to automatically shut down computers and smart interface items.


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## Dragons4u (Jul 18, 2011)

Another thing about the UPS, they can be linked to your computer through a usb cable and you can view your power and if you have any surges/brownouts.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

westom said:


> If a tower was earthed, then surge damage is easier. And a code violation.
> 
> Sorry, for the confusion, should have went further with the story but got lazy...the tower is no longer in use and is a Bird House and Wisteria holder...it is far enough from the house and all wiring and conduit to the house was disconnected and dug up.


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Intimidator said:


> the tower is no longer in use and is a Bird House and Wisteria holder


 Oh oh. First we get computer literate birds. Then we get "Planet of the Vultures". The end of mankind.

Always carefully recycle your computer equipment.


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Dragons4u said:


> They also protect against brownouts and power surges,


 Good. Since I keep asking it, then you are posting the APC specification numbers that claim protection from each type of surge.

Good luck. Nobody has yet been able to find those numbers because their UPS does not do, cannot do, and does not claim to do surge protection.


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## Dragons4u (Jul 18, 2011)

Well, the insurance warranty that comes with it has to be good for something if it doesn't work. 
It does keep my machines from shutting down if the power fluctuates, but it gives you those beeping tones that my specific model won't shut off until a regular power flow is restored.
And the voltage tracking thing on it is pretty cool to me.


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## Dragons4u (Jul 18, 2011)

Surge Protection and Filtering
Surge energy rating 365 Joules 

Filtering Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 5% IEEE surge let-through : zero clamping response time : meets UL 1449 

Data Line Protection RJ-11 Modem/Fax/DSL protection (two wire single line)


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Dragons4u said:


> Well, the insurance warranty that comes with it has to be good for something if it doesn't work.


 GM has a best warranty in the auto industry - 5 years and 100k miles. That proves GM products are superior to Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai? Of course not. In free markets, a product with a best warranty is often the worst.

Meanwhile, view fine print exemptions in those warranties. For example, a warranty from one manufacturer said using any protector from any other manufacturer in the house voided their warranty. The history of having these warranties honored is dismal. At best, they will replace a grossly overpriced protector with another. And still have high profits.

Your specs only say one thing about surge protection. They probably would not say even that if not required by the UL. 365 joules is near zero energy. Any surge that large is made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance. Destructive surges that can overwhelm protection inside appliances are hundreds of thousands of joules. UPS manufacturer hopes you ignore numbers. Otherwise you might suspect a scam.

BTW, what does UL 1449 say? A protector can completely fail. Do no surge protection. And still be UL listed. Because UL is only about human safety. As long as it fails without threatening human life (ie a house fire), then UL is happy.

Unfortunately, many UL listed protectors are so undersized as to, in rare cases, still create fire threats. For example, Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in "The Power Outage" describes what sometimes happens with a grossly undersized protector:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable man pulled
> a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter on the
> computer yelled and ran because sparks and smoke were coming from the
> power surge strip.

Undersized power surge strips will still have many times more joules than that UPS. 

BTW, a best telephone line protector is already installed on everyone's phone lines (subscriber interface) for free. Is required by code and Federal regulations. Has existed longer than either you or I have existed. And is completely unknown to a majority only educated by advertising from power strip and UPS manufacturers.

If not yet obvious, what most people *know* about surge protectors is a product of very successful advertising. Those UPS spec numbers demonstrate virtually no protection.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

westom said:


> GM has a best warranty in the auto industry - 5 years and 100k miles. That proves GM products are superior to Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai? Of course not. In free markets, a product with a best warranty is often the worst.
> 
> Meanwhile, view fine print exemptions in those warranties. For example, a warranty from one manufacturer said using any protector from any other manufacturer in the house voided their warranty. The history of having these warranties honored is dismal. At best, they will replace a grossly overpriced protector with another. And still have high profits.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help! You could have saved me ALOT of money earlier in life...I was scammed buying surge protectors that really did nothing.

For those looking into this stuff now....maybe you can give them some advice on what to look for to protect their TV's, Computers, Etc. 
Thanks again for the help!


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

westom said:


> Fix the defect.


The problem is a handyman installed that outlet by tapping into the existing circuits, and the microwave is too big of a power hog. Fortunately we seldom use it, and I should just trade down to a smaller unit.

The other light-dimmer is when the dryer first starts up, but that's only momentary.


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## Dragons4u (Jul 18, 2011)

Uh, is your dryer on a circuit of it's own or not?
If it is and the power still dims for the rest of the house, I'd take that as very bad. Am I right guys?


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## westom (Jul 7, 2011)

Dragons4u said:


> If it is and the power still dims for the rest of the house, I'd take that as very bad. Am I right guys?


Add up power numbers for each appliance. Sum either current or wattage. Numbers can be found where a power cord connects to each appliance. Those numbers must be less than the current (or wattage) for the breaker box circuit breaker. If it is, then you should have no dimming. If numbers exceed the breaker, well, normal (and unacceptable) is for power to exceed breaker numbers without tripping a breaker.

Dimming is bad. But if some other lights get brighter during appliance power cycling, then bad has become a human safety problem.

If all those power consumers do not exceed the 15 amps (1800 watt) or 20 amps (2400 watt) total, then find the wiring defect. Often not a human safety threat. But still completely unacceptable. 

A most common defect is created by an electrician that does not wrap all wires together. All wires must remains firmly connected even without tape or a wire nut. Then a wire nut is attached to make that connection even more conductive. Too many electricians simply use the wire nut to hold all wires together. That deficient connection would explain dimming lights.

Another defective is wires connected to a receptacle using the back stab method. All wires should be fully wrapped around a side mounted screw. Then the screw tightened to make an even better connection. This can be inspected by only removing a cover plate. Backstab connections, although legal, have a bad habit of making an insufficient connection; cause dimming.

And finally, to trace where a bad connection might exist. Locate which receptacles do not cause bulb dimming. And which receptacles on that same circuit do cause dimming.

Some ideas on tracing what should not exist even if your wires are 1930 vintage.


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