# No wild Steelhead???



## rweis (Dec 20, 2005)

I heard this weekend that the ODNR's official position is that there are no naturally spawned Steelies in the rivers in Ohio. One person felt that if they recognized any "wild" fish, they would have to protect them.

What do you think? Are any wild fish there? If so, any ideas as to why ODNR will not say so?


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## wader (Dec 9, 2004)

I may be wrong, but the ODNR initially brought in Little Manistee strain steelhead and continue to stock them. There may be some limited reproduction, but not enough to maintain the fishery. If there were any wild steelies left in Lake Erie before the stocking, they were so few and far between that there was no real fishery to speak of.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

I know for sure there are wild fish.I catch smolts and fingerlings out of two tribs that have never been stocked.And have caught wild adults every year from theses tribs.Very heavly spotted rainbow looking fish.These fish have been around since the 80's and are London strain.My worry is one trib has seen alot of traffic the last few years and is very small.
I have seen these wild fish on stringers and it bothers me.I would really like 
to see these tribs protected as no fish or atleast catch and release only.But the odnr doesnt have the man power now,let alone worry about a few small water ways.


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## liquidsoap (Oct 22, 2005)

Awesome pic treefrog!


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## MEISTERICS (May 15, 2006)

even if the fish was produced from an ohio stream or any state on the great lakes it would not matter. It still would not be trully wild. Salmonoids are not native to the great lakes.

For those who know what rivers do have spawning success please keep that under your hat. The few that do survive will NEVER have a chance to survive. 

our rivers do not typically stay cold long enough to naturally reproduce steelhead or salmon in our rivers. Hence why they are stocked year after year.

STEELHEAD=YUCK!!!!!!


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

MEISTERICS said:


> even if the fish was produced from an ohio stream or any state on the great lakes it would not matter. It still would not be trully wild. Salmonoids are not native to the great lakes.
> 
> For those who know what rivers do have spawning success please keep that under your hat. The few that do survive will NEVER have a chance to survive.
> 
> ...


Natural native,no.Wild fish,yes.They were not pumped out of a truck from a hatchery.They came from mother natures hatchery.Makes them wild to me.
Many ditches and small tribs of larger rivers have enough canopy,that I could go there today and get at the most a temp 60-65.
I am not saying it is a fishable number of "wild" fish.And that is why they are stocked ever year.But any natural reproduction is fantastic in my book.
And for keeping it under my hat:When did I say anything about where these streams are located?There is only one person I have talked to about these tribs in the 15+ years since I came across them,and he isnt saying a word.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2007)

tree, i think you should have your own fishing show or magazine. you sure can back up what you say on the water.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

rapman said:


> tree, i think you should have your own fishing show or magazine. you sure can back up what you say on the water.


Thats funny Rap,alot of people tell me that.My dad has been trying to get me to be a guide for years.But I think it would take all the fun out of it.


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## archman (Apr 30, 2004)

Matt, do you have a picture of an adult wild steelhead? I have heard the same thing you said from some credible sources, but I don't think I can tell the difference.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

archman said:


> Matt, do you have a picture of an adult wild steelhead? I have heard the same thing you said from some credible sources, but I don't think I can tell the difference.


Joel,let me look through some pics.I am sure I do on on old photos,but dont have a scanner.I just might have some on digis.I will get back to you.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

See how peppered it is with spots.Most steelhead dont have any spots past the lateral line.I caught this the day I caught the small one from the same creek.Most times they also have way deeper bodies.As I stated in an earlier post I believe just about every wild one I have caught is survivers of the London strain.These same streams that have repo steelhead also still get small runs of kings and Hos.Nothing great,I see a handful every year so they must be getting the job done.Everyone please dont message me and ask directions.

Joel you and I will get together this year.


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## archman (Apr 30, 2004)

Hmm, that's interesting. I went back and looked at some old pics and many didn't have spots. I never really noticed. But I have caught quite a few with spots. Would you think this one is wild?


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## cheezemm2 (Apr 7, 2004)

> Hmm, that's interesting. I went back and looked at some old pics and many didn't have spots. I never really noticed. But I have caught quite a few with spots. Would you think this one is wild?


Are you talking about the fish 


Seems to be you get pretty wild when you miss those big blowups out at Mogadore that no one hears or sees.

If Joel says a fish was gigantic and no one is around to see it, is there a fish at all?

Following this post closely because I'm committing to steelheading this year since someone got me hooked last year<----already bought a rod and tied some flies 

Very interesting things about the fishery....


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

archman said:


> Hmm, that's interesting. I went back and looked at some old pics and many didn't have spots. I never really noticed. But I have caught quite a few with spots. Would you think this one is wild?


Nope,thats a manistee


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## wasserwolf (Jun 6, 2006)

Back in the early 90's when i was very active in the OCBS and on the education committee, Kevin Kayle of the ODNR told me and a couple others exactly where the state had encountered natural reproduction, so this is not a new thing here, and the areas are by no means secret ( At that time ) Don't forget also that N.Y., P.A. and i believe Ontario also stock thousands of smolts each year as does Ohio, So all the trout you guys are catching are not all Ohio stocked Manistee's to begin with because of this. There is a tremendous amount of wandering that goes on. Look at the Ashtabula River, for example, Thousands of Steelies each season,yet no stocking....Growing up on the banks of Arcola creek in the 80's, we were catching steelhead before Ohio really even had it's London strain really up and going....And i will tell you, the steelheading back then was fabulous, as well as no-where-near the interest the program now commands.Ask anyone who has fished for these for over the past twenty years and you will here the same thing. Good luck guys.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

wasserwolf said:


> Back in the early 90's when i was very active in the OCBS and on the education committee, Kevin Kayle of the ODNR told me and a couple others exactly where the state had encountered natural reproduction, so this is not a new thing here, and the areas are by no means secret ( At that time ) Don't forget also that N.Y., P.A. and i believe Ontario also stock thousands of smolts each year as does Ohio, So all the trout you guys are catching are not all Ohio stocked Manistee's to begin with because of this. There is a tremendous amount of wandering that goes on. Look at the Ashtabula River, for example, Thousands of Steelies each season,yet no stocking....Growing up on the banks of Arcola creek in the 80's, we were catching steelhead before Ohio really even had it's London strain really up and going....And i will tell you, the steelheading back then was fabulous, as well as no-where-near the interest the program now commands.Ask anyone who has fished for these for over the past twenty years and you will here the same thing. Good luck guys.


Boy you meen trout and salmon stray?!I am not trying to be a ball buster ,but thats not what we are talking about.
And God bless PA. for all there fish that Bula gets.
And I was there 20+ years ago casting at the mouth of Arcola throwing KO Wobblers from the horseshoe for Coho.
And Arcola was stocked with a hundred thousand rainbow/steelhead a year in the 70's.I sure hope there was alot around for that little ditch.


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## wasserwolf (Jun 6, 2006)

treefrog said:


> Boy you meen trout and salmon stray?!I am not trying to be a ball buster ,but thats not what we are talking about.
> And God bless PA. for all there fish that Bula gets.
> And I was there 20+ years ago casting at the mouth of Arcola throwing KO Wobblers from the horseshoe for Coho.
> And Arcola was stocked with a hundred thousand rainbow/steelhead a year in the 70's.I sure hope there was alot around for that little ditch.


I never liked the horseshoe, always did better from the blocks east of the mouth,......I understand you are not talking about the wandering, But the wandering explains " SOME " of the varience in why you guys are seeing different shaped,as well as spotting variations on the fish! ....And yes There were Alot of Fish in the ditch, Give me a break- i wasn't even old enough to drive back then, and we walked to the creek after school and on weekends, I got wheels in 85 and Discovered Conneaut and the whole Steelhead world opened up to me then. JeeZ


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

wasserwolf said:


> I never liked the horseshoe, always did better from the blocks east of the mouth,......I understand you are not talking about the wandering, But the wandering explains " SOME " of the varience in why you guys are seeing different shaped,as well as spotting variations on the fish! ....And yes There were Alot of Fish in the ditch, Give me a break- i wasn't even old enough to drive back then, and we walked to the creek after school and on weekends, I got wheels in 85 and Discovered Conneaut and the whole Steelhead world opened up to me then. JeeZ


The blocks East of the mouth were hot sometimes,but any kind of chop on the lake would go over my waders.


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## wasserwolf (Jun 6, 2006)

treefrog said:


> The blocks East of the mouth were hot sometimes,but any kind of chop on the lake would go over my waders.


I came home wet more times than dry, amazing when your real young and eager what you'll put up with. But, good memories , Bye the way, I wasn't aware of those 70's stocking you mentioned, like i said, i was really just a kid then.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

wasserwolf said:


> I came home wet more times than dry, amazing when your real young and eager what you'll put up with. But, good memories , Bye the way, I wasn't aware of those 70's stocking you mentioned, like i said, i was really just a kid then.


Well they did a few more stockings in the 80's and in 1993 they loaded up all 3 creeks with all the left over Londons when they switched to Manistee.


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## wasserwolf (Jun 6, 2006)

I also remember Ashtabula Got like 12'000 or something back in the possibly late 90's or something for some reason??? I droped out of the club around 95 and fish no-where-near as much for steelhead as i used to....I liked it better before it was cool, I know you know what i mean....thank-god i discovered Muskies since then, even though two entirely different seasons....anymore, a few trips to the Grand, Bula, and Conne a season is all i need.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

wasserwolf said:


> I also remember Ashtabula Got like 12'000 or something back in the possibly late 90's or something for some reason??? I droped out of the club around 95 and fish no-where-near as much for steelhead as i used to....I liked it better before it was cool, I know you know what i mean....thank-god i discovered Muskies since then, even though two entirely different seasons....anymore, a few trips to the Grand, Bula, and Conne a season is all i need.


Yes sir,I know what you mean.When you could fish every day for a week and not see another person.Now every access point you go to there are already 10 cars parked.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

2-3% of steelhead eggs hatch. Thats it. Alot of people dont keep hens because they think you got to release them so they spawn.... thats not the case...and a whole nother topic that we wont get into(catch and release)
Ohio gets alot of pa steelhead who lost there way and end up in our eastern streams..... Pa steels have a more of a wider back while ohio stocked steels are more slender and skinny.... The first photo is a pa fish,,, the second is a ohio fish. See the differance????????? both are females cought at the same time of year!!!!


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

steelheadBob said:


> 2-3% of steelhead eggs hatch. Thats it. Alot of people dont keep hens because they think you got to release them so they spawn.... thats not the case...and a whole nother topic that we wont get into(catch and release)
> Ohio gets alot of pa steelhead who lost there way and end up in our eastern streams..... Pa steels have a more of a wider back while ohio stocked steels are more slender and skinny.... The first photo is a pa fish,,, the second is a ohio fish. See the differance????????? both are females cought at the same time of year!!!!


So how does this pertain to this thread?We have already gone over strays.If that top fish was caught in PA. it is one out of 10,000.Because anyone who knows anything most of there fish are the cookie cutter 24" that arnt nowhere near the girth of that.And as I said I believe the few naturals are left overs from the London strain.Which would make PA.and the"few" naturals look similar as they are/were just mutt domestic rainbows.


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## archman (Apr 30, 2004)

So how do you tell the difference between a PA strain and a natural now?


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

archman said:


> So how do you tell the difference between a PA strain and a natural now?


Look for the spots.Almost all hatchery fish will hardly have any spots below the Lateral line.The wild will have spots everywhere,like the pic I posted.They look alot like the pics of the fish people post of rainbows from cold creek.Or better yet 'bows from New Zealand.


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## baby blue (Sep 8, 2005)

Those are good memories at arcola in the 80's. We where out there with ya and sounds like about the same age. Had to walk through the old fence but then D'arcy went and publicized it. Shortly after that there was a restroom, parking, and oh yea.. crowds.
We'd drive out that way and hit any shoreline we could find. Had to work for them back then though. 2 fish days were banner. 
I'm with ya on the east rocks.
anyway.. good times and memories. 

Just to throw this into the mix. From what I've heard there is going to be a seize on the manistees (from michigan) stocking program until they get a handle on the VHS disease. There is a ban on transportation of fish amoung great lakes. There are even new regulations regarding frozen cut bait.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

dude, i was just showing photos of the 2 types so people could see, and that fish was caught in arcola creek. so im very sorry, i have no ideal how to fish for steelies and have no ideal what im doing.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

steelheadBob said:


> . so im very sorry, i have no ideal how to fish for steelies and have no ideal what im doing.


Well the first step is admitting it.Just busting your balls,check your PM's


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

no prob, pm read!!!


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

hey Joel, we need to get out again for the steel, that day sucked because of the river being 75% frooze over.


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## archman (Apr 30, 2004)

Bob, that day wasn't bad. If I remember correctly, we landed about 10 fish that day. A lot of guys would kill for those numbers. I can't wait until the season starts again. Bring on the cold temps!


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

baby blue said:


> Those are good memories at arcola in the 80's. We where out there with ya and sounds like about the same age. Had to walk through the old fence but then D'arcy went and publicized it. Shortly after that there was a restroom, parking, and oh yea.. crowds.
> We'd drive out that way and hit any shoreline we could find. Had to work for them back then though. 2 fish days were banner.
> I'm with ya on the east rocks.
> anyway.. good times and memories.


That's a good reason why the state DNR won't publish anything about natural reproduction. A few posts and/or reviews about these unstocked waters can hurt those trout that hatch there. 

It probably happens in a number of places, but the 2nd summer is what does these fish in. Spawned fish that make it thru a wet, cool summer might have a chance, but they won't sustain the fishery. A lot has to go right for a trout to make it back to the lake, including a lack of silt during the spawn, temperatures, preditors, and fisherman. I've caught some smaller than stocked trout in a few tribs that aren't those suspected of reproduction out east or west. One year, I ran into a few schools of small trout in some deep runs in the upper rocky. Have caught a few larger trout in the same areas that didn't look like the typical steelhead. The spots (or lack of) can't be used exclusively, since fish from other stockings besides the state can make it to the lake and back. This includes the kamloops strain adults stocked in the east branch of the rocky and others stocked in hinkley or wallace, which do make it downstream and beyond.



baby blue said:


> Just to throw this into the mix. From what I've heard there is going to be a seize on the manistees (from michigan) stocking program until they get a handle on the VHS disease. There is a ban on transportation of fish amoung great lakes. There are even new regulations regarding frozen cut bait.


Let's hope that they get a pass, since the fish are being transferred between two state agencies. The ban is probably more towards the fish farms transporting fish that are harder to police. If not, the state is probably working on the possibility of hatching their own fish in Castaila. Even if they cut the production in half, there will be more than enough fish to go around.


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## Dock Time (Sep 12, 2006)

Just guessing, but the bigger girl looks like a London strain, not a Manistee. I too have caught a trout or 2 in the past 22 years. I wade mostly the Chagrin, Grand and Rocky, in that order....

Great to be thinking steel now regardless!!!


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## The One (Jun 9, 2007)

I know out West the adipose fin is clipped on hatchery fish. Wild fish would have the fin intact. Not sure if the ODNR does the same?


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## wasserwolf (Jun 6, 2006)

Steel Cranium said:


> That's a good reason why the state DNR won't publish anything about natural reproduction. A few posts and/or reviews about these unstocked waters can hurt those trout that hatch there.
> 
> It probably happens in a number of places, but the 2nd summer is what does these fish in. Spawned fish that make it thru a wet, cool summer might have a chance, but they won't sustain the fishery. A lot has to go right for a trout to make it back to the lake, including a lack of silt during the spawn, temperatures, preditors, and fisherman. I've caught some smaller than stocked trout in a few tribs that aren't those suspected of reproduction out east or west. One year, I ran into a few schools of small trout in some deep runs in the upper rocky. Have caught a few larger trout in the same areas that didn't look like the typical steelhead. The spots (or lack of) can't be used exclusively, since fish from other stockings besides the state can make it to the lake and back. This includes the kamloops strain adults stocked in the east branch of the rocky and others stocked in hinkley or wallace, which do make it downstream and beyond.
> 
> ...


As of right now, Michigan will still be able to supply Ohio with Steelhead with there surplus. However Michigan will not be excepting the Channel Cats we traded for the Steelhead. So the program is indeed SAFE, this was reported in the Ohio Outdoor News lastweek.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

"So how do you tell the difference between a PA strain and a natural now?"

The Pa. fish is missing half its teeth........

The only difference you can detect is if the fish is a "london" strain
or "manistee" - body shape is a dead give away (usually).

With strays and all who really knows?

Didja know that the first steelies were actually stocked in the Cuyahoga in
*1920 ?*


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## BornWithGills (Feb 26, 2006)

If the supposed wild fish are london strain hatchery fish a few years removed, why would they have spots that the current london strain hatchery fish don't. Wouldn't those fish still be basically genetically identical. Not saying there is no natural reproduction, because nature will always do what it's meant to do, but the spots thing doesn't seem to make logical sense.


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## treefrog (Sep 15, 2005)

BornWithGills said:


> If the supposed wild fish are london strain hatchery fish a few years removed, why would they have spots that the current london strain hatchery fish don't. Wouldn't those fish still be basically genetically identical. Not saying there is no natural reproduction, because nature will always do what it's meant to do, but the spots thing doesn't seem to make logical sense.


there are no more Londons since about 1995.They were a domestic rainbow,so there off spring would look more like stream trout.
Now People are going to say that PA. fish are rainbows also.But not really,they are a mutt.Starting out as domestic then crossed with chambers creek strain and then I think Ganarska(sp) strain.ILL have to go check my records and get back with that.


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## wasserwolf (Jun 6, 2006)

I actually enjoyed the Londons, aside from goofy spawning in Oct. in Conneaut, Seems like they were either 21-23 " or they jumped right up to 10 #. They were deffinately easier to catch than the Manistee, no where near the zip on em. But fun all the same.


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## jlamson (Oct 18, 2006)

there is some good info in this post i never knew much about the scientific part about em' there just to darn easy to catch i found some new honey holes in the ash. and conn. this last year any one head up to these parts


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