# Shotgun debate home defense/hunting



## BuzzBait Brad

In the market for a new shotgun. Thinking a mossberg 500 or a remington 870. Thoughts, pros and cons please! Thanks


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## M R DUCKS

Can not go wrong with either....Remington probably has better reputation....nothing wrong with the Mossberg though...handle each, see how they feel...safety location differs.


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## BuzzBait Brad

M R DUCKS said:


> Can not go wrong with either....Remington probably has better reputation....nothing wrong with the Mossberg though...handle each, see how they feel...safety location differs.


I handled both today. I like them both. Only thing I didn't like was how loose the handle felt


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## canoe carp killer

BuzzBait Brad said:


> I handled both today. I like them both. Only thing I didn't like was how loose the handle felt



On the mossberg I assume? I like Remington's better but mossberg a customer service is second to none.


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## gotta hit

I have both love them both, I do have more options with the Mossberg, different barrels, foregrips and stocks, but both are great guns!!


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## BuzzBait Brad

canoe carp killer said:


> On the mossberg I assume? I like Remington's better but mossberg a customer service is second to none.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Yes the Mossberg.


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## BuzzBait Brad

gotta hit said:


> I have both love them both, I do have more options with the Mossberg, different barrels, foregrips and stocks, but both are great guns!!


Thanks! That helps. May put a scope on one eventually. The guy at field and stream told me not all mossberg 500 are ready for scopes though.


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## ezbite

if your going the scope route, get the rifled cantilever barrel not the saddle that goes over the receiver.


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## BuzzBait Brad

ezbite said:


> if your going the scope route, get the rifled cantilever barrel not the saddle that goes over the receiver.


Excuse me as I don't have much knowledge about guns. I'm wanting to learn though. Is that cantilever barrel a barrel with the scope already attached?


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## Gone Wishin

BuzzBait Brad said:


> Excuse me as I don't have much knowledge about guns. I'm wanting to learn though. Is that cantilever barrel a barrel with the scope already attached?


It is a barrel that has a mounting platform for a scope.


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## BuzzBait Brad

What if the gun is already drilled and tapped?


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## Popspastime

Am I missing something? I thought this thread was for home defense? Now were doing scopes and slug barrels. 
Anywhoo, a shotgun is not the best home defense weapon due to size but yet the best close range weapon. Hard to wheel a 40" plus weapon around the house in the dark. I would consider a Judge loaded with shotshell ammo packing 00 buck for in the home. 

Pops


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## BuzzBait Brad

Popspastime said:


> Am I missing something? I thought this thread was for home defense? Now were doing scopes and slug barrels.
> Anywhoo, a shotgun is not the best home defense weapon due to size but yet the best close range weapon. Hard to wheel a 40" plus weapon around the house in the dark. I would consider a Judge loaded with shotshell ammo packing 00 buck for in the home.
> 
> Pops


The thread says home defense and hunting. I wouldn't have the attachments on all all times. I've always heard a shotgun was best option because you can spray doorways if someone was to break in and try to harm anyone in the home


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## gotta hit

what's nice about both is you customize them to your liking, 18in barrel with a pistol grip for the house not even close to 40 in!, swap out the barrel and into a stock for the field or whatever you want


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## buckeye dan

You can extend the magazine capacity on an 870 much easier and cheaper than a Mossberg. It's less than $50 on an 870 by adding an extension tube and spring. With the Mossberg you have to replace the entire magazine, spring and barrel.


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## BuzzBait Brad

gotta hit said:


> what's nice about both is you customize them to your liking, 18in barrel with a pistol grip for the house not even close to 40 in!, swap out the barrel and into a stock for the field or whatever you want


That's something to think about!




buckeye dan said:


> You can extend the magazine capacity on an 870 much easier and cheaper than a Mossberg. It's less than $50 on an 870 by adding an extension tube and spring. With the Mossberg you have to replace the entire magazine, spring and barrel.


I think I am leaning more towards the 870 for small reasons like this.


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## scallop

I like the Mossy better than Remington, however my home defense is a Benelli SuperNova which is head and shoulders above either. If you are still looking I would highly suggest taking a peek at the Benelli. A little pricier but IMHO a much nicer gun.


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## BuzzBait Brad

scallop said:


> I like the Mossy better than Remington, however my home defense is a Benelli SuperNova which is head and shoulders above either. If you are still looking I would highly suggest taking a peek at the Benelli. A little pricier but IMHO a much nicer gun.


I was looking at them yesterday at field and stream. They look real nice. I don't think I can get myself to pay for one right now though lol


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## boatnut

BuzzBait Brad said:


> The thread says home defense and hunting. I wouldn't have the attachments on all all times. I've always heard a shotgun was best option because you can spray doorways if someone was to break in and try to harm anyone in the home


"spray and pray" is not the best method. Google "home defense tactics shotgun"


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## Dovans

bought my wife a 410 pump shotgun for protection. its only a 410 and she does not like the kick and would rather use her LCR 22. I bring this up so you can ask your wife will she be comfortable using a 12 ga shot gun. Has she ever fired a short barrel 12 ga? shot gun will be of no use if it jumps out of the persons hands after the first shot. Dont kid yourself that you will only need one shot.

I firmly believe Home defense gun and a hunting gun are two different types of firearms.


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## BuzzBait Brad

Dovans said:


> bought my wife a 410 pump shotgun for protection. its only a 410 and she does not like the kick and would rather use her LCR 22. I bring this up so you can ask your wife will she be comfortable using a 12 ga shot gun. Has she ever fired a short barrel 12 ga? shot gun will be of no use if it jumps out of the persons hands after the first shot. Dont kid yourself that you will only need one shot.
> 
> I firmly believe Home defense gun and a hunting gun are two different types of firearms.


She has shot a 20 gauge and a bulldog 44. I know it's not a 12 Guage but I'm sure she could handle it


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## jonnythfisherteen2

I know its not a mossberg or remington, but I have been looking at a h&r pardner pump. Its supposed to br a chinese (made by hawk industries) copy of the 870. It has a nice price tag and it takes some 870 attachments as well.


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## yonderfishin

For home defense my choice is 20 guage , .... 12 guage isnt bad but its a little overkill for close quarters and even though its harder to miss with one you still have all those pellets and where they could end up "accidentally" to think about , not to mention how the extra kick can effect the accuracy of a quick follow up shot if needed. And you can do a lot of hunting with a 20 too though not ideal for some applications. The 20 gets underrated a lot since its tempting to think more is better when thats not always the case. Id prefer to have both , a 12 guage for hunting and a 20 for defense but if I had to choose just one as a multi use shotgun it would be the 20.


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## Dovans

it sounds like you have plenty of firepower for home defense. Why does your next gun also have to be for home defense as well? Get it for hunting. Wasnt there a thread while back about people having problems with the rem 870?


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## buckeye dan

870's are highly configurable as far as shotguns go. With most others, you are limited to what you bought or forced to buy expensive components with a limited selection of after market stuff. Mossberg being the exception but the magazine extension problem is a deal breaker for me.

Here is my Remington 870 Wingmaster Deer in combat mode without sling attached. 
20" smooth bore slug barrel IMP CYL.
3 round Choate magazine extension and spring.
Aimpoint saddle mount scope mount. The screws for it replace the trigger housing pins which is a bonus. Receiver pins can and do get lost/fall out. Not the screws.
Bushnell Gen 1 Holosight with hybrid dot, circle, crosshair combination reticle. The dot is where slugs go, the circle is where shot goes and the crosshair lines aid in leading moving targets.
Remington Shurshot furniture.

Shortly after I posted the original photo in 2010, a bunch of similar builds started popping up on the internet. I have even seen a couple of guys training with almost the same configuration. It carries well in a single point sling and tactical top loading is a breeze with the hybrid pistol grip while still shouldering like a thumb hole stock. It's not for everyone but it has gotten really popular in the past couple few years. 

A quick barrel swap to the 28" vent rib barrel with choke tubes and its ready for squirrels, rabbits, doves, pheasants or whatever you like. I shoot the holosight both eyes open and it makes for lighting fast target acquisition. I made a plug for it out of a sink supply line from the plumbing dept so I can keep the magazine extension on it. It's not hard to swap out though. It took my trap game from teens to low 20's and the extra weight up front smoothed out my swing while being functional.


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## BuzzBait Brad

Dovans said:


> it sounds like you have plenty of firepower for home defense. Why does your next gun also have to be for home defense as well? Get it for hunting. Wasnt there a thread while back about people having problems with the rem 870?


I don't have any guns at all


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## Dovans

BuzzBait Brad said:


> I don't have any guns at all


Your wife has guns... you are entitled to a few of your own by all means.


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## BuzzBait Brad

Dovans said:


> Your wife has guns... you are entitled to a few of your own by all means.


No I meant we just shot those guns. We don't own any lol


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## Saugernut

My only advice is if you are going with the Reming. try to find an older used model. Im sorry to say that 870's just aren't made like they used to be, but as some others have said you really cant go wrong with either. Would suggest doing some research on #4 buckshot for home defense, as the 00 buck will penetrate way too many walls.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

BuzzBait Brad said:


> No I meant we just shot those guns. We don't own any lol


Kind of figured that as soon as you said you dont own any. How much shooting experience do you have with shotguns?


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## BigV

Dovans said:


> I firmly believe Home defense gun and a hunting gun are two different types of firearms.


I agree 100%. My home defense shotgun has an 18" barrel and open choke. Keep in mind that home encounters will be very short distances between you and the bad guy. Even using an IC choke will have a tight pattern at 10 feet. 00 buckshot will open up to around a 18" spread at 10 feet.


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## BuzzBait Brad

I have some experience. Not a expert. More like a beginner but that's why I came here to learn. Looks like I have some things to think about and look into before I do purchase.


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## fishyscience

Go with the 870----get a 12 gauge, 28" barrel, 3" chamber, with choke tubes. Now you can use it for hunting anything you want, and for home defense, put a cylinder or skeet choke in it with 3" 000 buck. Does that seem like overkill?? No. If you are defending your family or yourself, 000 buck, or even 00 buck, is the show stopper for the criminal. My 'go-to' hunting gun is an 870 Super Mag, 30", with choke tubes. It has NEVER failed to cycle, even in -zero weather laying in the snow for geese, or in a downpour rain for ducks, geese or turkey. I don't slug gun hunt (only muzzleloader) but if I did, I'd have a rifled slug barrel for it as well.
WHY buy a short barrel, extended magazine shotgun when you don't need it??? And what else can you really use one of those 'tactical defense' shotgun for??
Be practical---buy a GOOD 870 and have a gun for multiple use!!!
And, the extended magazine question----even if you have your 870 plugged for 3 shots for waterfowl hunting, if you are loaded with 00 or 000 buck, and three shots does not put them down, nothing will.





BuzzBait Brad said:


> In the market for a new shotgun. Thinking a mossberg 500 or a remington 870. Thoughts, pros and cons please! Thanks


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## Snyd

I have owned a Mossberg all my life and it shoots straight as an arrow so I would have to go with a Mossberg. Dads has a Remington and there were so many times when he missed a deer that I ended up taking down. Of course that was probably just poor shooting on his part LOL!


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## bobk

Something to think about for home defense is will you remember to cycle the gun in a threat situation? I'm a fan of auto loaders for home defense. My wife knows to just keep pulling the trigger until the threat is stopped. Adding the extra step of having to cycle the gun after each shot is just adding to an already intense situation. 


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## WeekendWarrior

I own both. I hunt more then the average person and I would highly recommend the 870. My Mossberg's are rattle traps. Remington plain and simple is made more solid. Keep in mind, 90% of all law enforcement agency's have the 870 in their cars. That has to say something.


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## DeathFromAbove

Shotguns are nice, but you can't wear one on your hip. Get a Glock also. You dont have to run down the back hallway to the bedroom closet to get at it.


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## Lucky Touch Charters

I would recommend using the same gun for home defense and for hunting. Biggest reason is if you have a gun for home defense, having a gun for hunting gives you a reason to own another gun lol. I own and like both the mossberg and remington. For home defense I would prefer the mossberg due to the safety is in plain view sight and easy to operate for anyone even if they are not familair with the gun. Works well for both left & right handers. 

As a hunter and avid shooter I am familiar with gun handling my wife however is not therefore the thumb safety in plain view is easier than the cross bolt section that someone who is not use to woulds have to look for. 

Another note to consider is a shotgun is a spray method with multiple pellets being projected. This can be dangerous to others (such as kids) in the event the gun is fired inside the home. I would be concerned with friendly fire if kids or other adults are in the home.

Did you consider a handgun?


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## Roscoe

Let's say you picked a gun for home defense and feel comfortable shooting it.Ok,where are you going to keep it?Say you and your family are asleep and somebody sneaks into the house.If you don't have an alarm and he's quiet and doesn't wake you right away,what are you going to do when he does?Unless you've been trained,it's very difficult to come out of a sleep and start firing.If you are really concerned about it,you need a buffer.Get an alarm or a Big Plott Hound.Gives you time to get your gun before he get's any further.Of the two the Plott Hound is most reliable and deadly.You can forget about that burgler.Good Luck.



Roscoe


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## elkhtr

What Roscoe said>>>

While I may get an earful here, but.. a shotgun is certainly the most effective stopper, BUT, a couple things to consider:
when things go bump in the night are you going to try to find out what they are? or do you plan to hold in a room and call the police? If you don't know what made the sound are you going to check it out? If you plan on searching a home with a gun, leave the long guns to very experienced/trained individuals. A long gun can be taken away very easily if you don't know how to properly search with one. Round one corner or enter a room and the bad guy could have your gun. It is much easier to disarm someone with a long gun and it is difficult to use the long gun effectively to clear corners, enter rooms, etc.

Another concern when using firearms is lighting. If you ever have to use a gun in defense, you better be able to properly identify what you are shooting at, or not shooting at. A weapon mounted light is very helpful if you have a long gun. Can you hold a flashlight while holding a long gun and open a door, or reach for a light switch, etc? 

I know finances dictate what we all buy or don't buy, IMO a handgun is much more suited to home defense due to the above issues and you may not have enough money to buy a shotgun and a handgun, but I figured I would give you something to think about.


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## ostbucks98

A light also compromises your position.


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## Popspastime

I'd like to see anybody in a pitch black room throw up with either a sight or a short barreled shotgun and hit anything but walls. You better train well with a shotgun before you plan on relying on it. Talk is cheap until the rubber meets the road. My 1911's with 10 shot clips are used indoors and shotguns are for outside and clearing fox holes. 

Pops


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## BuzzBait Brad

I don't even know where to start for a handgun. All I researched was shotguns. I guess a handgun would be better for my place. (I'm in an apartment by the way)


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## Shortdrift

Based on what appears to be your limited experience with firearms I would suggest you purchase a revolver that only requires you to point the pistol and pull the trigger. Get the Taurus Judge, load the first chamber with buckshot and the remaining chambers with a hollow point bullet. There is no need to have more than six rounds for inside home defense as all the shooting will be over in seconds with either the intruder or you retreating, wounded or dead. Keep a night light on so you won't need any additional tactical equipment.


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## BuzzBait Brad

Shortdrift said:


> Based on what appears to be your limited experience with firearms I would suggest you purchase a revolver that only requires you to point the pistol and pull the trigger. Get the Taurus Judge, load the first chamber with buckshot and the remaining chambers with a hollow point bullet. There is no need to have more than six rounds for inside home defense as all the shooting will be over in seconds with either the intruder or you retreating, wounded or dead. Keep a night light on so you won't need any additional tactical equipment.


Anything cheaper? Lol I know you can get them for cheap. My dad got a steal on his 44. I would probably spend $500 total with the Mossberg 500 my friend is selling for $200 and another handgun


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## buckeyebowman

BuzzBait Brad said:


> I don't even know where to start for a handgun. All I researched was shotguns. I guess a handgun would be better for my place. (I'm in an apartment by the way)


Well, that complicates things! Now you don't have neighbors in the next building, but in the next room! Your potential liability just went up if you ever need to employ a firearm in burglary, robbery, or home invasion situation. I hope some of the earlier responders come back and address this situation. They seem to have much more expertise than me, but I do have some opinions. Now is when the TOUGH questions start! What is the crime history for the apartments where you live? How safe do you REALLY feel? Do you feel that this is an absolute necessity (some would say it's always a necessity), or a precaution? DO YOU FEEL UNSAFE IN YOUR OWN HOME?! Answering those questions honestly will go further toward determining what you need to do than a discussion about brand or gauge/caliber!

My preference for home defense is the shotgun. A nice short barreled one with a large magazine and plenty of "spread". If I make a mistake, or if the burglar, robber, or home invader makes a quick move, I still have the chance of catching him with at least a few pellets. This might give him a reason to leave, but as someone else posted, you can't count on that. Drugs do strange things to people. But, I like the comment I heard from a "personal defense" expert about shotguns. He said, something like, "With a shotgun you don't so much shoot a guy as "disassemble" him!" 

In an apartment I'm guessing the the 00 or 000 buck arguments go out the window, as does a pistol, unless your using "frangible" ammo. And then, who really knows? With some of the "cheesecloth" walls they're putting in apartment building these days! With a shotgun you may have to throttle back to real bird shot. 6's, 7's, 7 1/2's, or even 8's! Something that will put a big cloud out there that will pack some sting! 

Again, I'm hoping some of the earlier guys will come back and comment!


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## BuzzBait Brad

buckeyebowman said:


> Well, that complicates things! Now you don't have neighbors in the next building, but in the next room! Your potential liability just went up if you ever need to employ a firearm in burglary, robbery, or home invasion situation. I hope some of the earlier responders come back and address this situation. They seem to have much more expertise than me, but I do have some opinions. Now is when the TOUGH questions start! What is the crime history for the apartments where you live? How safe do you REALLY feel? Do you feel that this is an absolute necessity (some would say it's always a necessity), or a precaution? DO YOU FEEL UNSAFE IN YOUR OWN HOME?! Answering those questions honestly will go further toward determining what you need to do than a discussion about brand or gauge/caliber!
> 
> My preference for home defense is the shotgun. A nice short barreled one with a large magazine and plenty of "spread". If I make a mistake, or if the burglar, robber, or home invader makes a quick move, I still have the chance of catching him with at least a few pellets. This might give him a reason to leave, but as someone else posted, you can't count on that. Drugs do strange things to people. But, I like the comment I heard from a "personal defense" expert about shotguns. He said, something like, "With a shotgun you don't so much shoot a guy as "disassemble" him!"
> 
> In an apartment I'm guessing the the 00 or 000 buck arguments go out the window, as does a pistol, unless your using "frangible" ammo. And then, who really knows? With some of the "cheesecloth" walls they're putting in apartment building these days! With a shotgun you may have to throttle back to real bird shot. 6's, 7's, 7 1/2's, or even 8's! Something that will put a big cloud out there that will pack some sting!
> 
> Again, I'm hoping some of the earlier guys will come back and comment!


Good points. We arent planning on staying in an apartment much longer with that said. We have some sketchy people in this complex and random people knocking on our door all the time. I never answer by the way lol hopefully be able to look for a house soon. The way the apartment is set up though I couldn't really see me shooting through walls in an event was to occur because of the layout. 

Sorry if I sound stupid throughout the thread. I just want to learn!


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## Dovans

In all honesty, better digs should take priority over a firearm. I would forgo the firearm until my family was living in a safer environment. One of the worst things bout owning a firearm is if someone else uses it in a crime. According to the law(as told to me by my CC instructor), regardless who has it your responsible for that firearm.


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## Had a Bite

Let me start by saying this is my opinion only. 

You hit a person with anything from a shogun at close range, like in your home, and they are going to have a problem, you really don't need 00 Buck shot. You really don't have to worry about an extended mag and all that crazy stuff either. This is the real world and not a movie. 5 shots is more than enough to get the job done. I know others are going to say they need this and that and that's just fine. It all depends on what makes you feel better. 

But since you came here looking for suggestions, go with a 410. Your obviously not a gun nut or a hard core hunter so that type of gun would be just fine for you. You will have enough power to stop the person in your house and still have fun in the woods chasing rabbits and squirrels. Plus I think you said you have a wife, this will be just fine for her also. If someone tells you that its not enough to stop a person, ask them to take a shot a prove it. You wont find any takers on that I'm sure. 

Like someone else said, a deterrent is way more effective. I cant say or have anyway of knowing but I would be willing to bet of all the people that responded so far, not many and probably none actually, have fired a gun at someone in their home and I hope they never have to either. But I would make the same wager that at least a few of them have a dog at home and that barking HAS already prevented someone from breaking into their home even if they weren't aware of it.


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## Popspastime

One last point... think about the room sizes in your home, how big are they? You shooting at 8 ft. or less? A shotgun shooting 8 ft. shoots about a 3" pattern no matter what barrel or choke your shooting. Don't believe it, try it sometime and see. You wont stand a chance with a long gun. Sorry, my .02.

Pops


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## BuzzBait Brad

Popspastime said:


> One last point... think about the room sizes in your home, how big are they? You shooting at 8 ft. or less? A shotgun shooting 8 ft. shoots about a 3" pattern no matter what barrel or choke your shooting. Don't believe it, try it sometime and see. You wont stand a chance with a long gun. Sorry, my .02.
> 
> Pops


The way the place is laid out from front to back of the apartment is probably 30 feet. The bedroom is right next to the front door and is probably 11 x 11 or somewhere around those dimensions. I could bunker myself down in there and still not shoot through walls because my neighbors are to the sides of were I'd be aiming


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## bobk

You will be fine with a shotgun. Like already mentioned go with birdshot.


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## papaperch

Whatever you pick. You and your wife will have to devote lots of practice time for it to do you any good. Sadly quite a few weapons that are purchased for self-defense are packed away after purchase.

Whoever is going to use that weapon in time of need . Needs to be extremely familiar with it in order to be effective. I have owned weapons for well over 55 years ans am a combat veteran. But my Ruger LCR 357 sees the light of day quite often. It is NOT a hunting gun or a target gun. What it is a double action revolver that is going to reliably and easily fire up to five shots if needed. It is light fast and extremely easy trigger pull even for women.

I constantly practice at 15 feet but from a variety of positions and with each hand. Reason being that I cannot guarantee of being able to assume any defensive position due to an unexpected confrontation.

Next thing I would suggest is to do a TON of reading. One good author to look for Massad Ayoob. His most famous title is " No Second Place Winner ". The more you research and read I think you will understand the level of commitment needed.


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## buckeye dan

Buzzbait Brad,

What part of the state are you in? After reading the entire thread I recommend you and the wife begin with a good CHL class. I can recommend someone if I know where to send you.


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## Dovans

buckeye dan said:


> Buzzbait Brad,
> 
> What part of the state are you in? After reading the entire thread I recommend you and the wife begin with a good CHL class. I can recommend someone if I know where to send you.


Now that has to be the best advice given on this thread.


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## Sluggo

Having completed a good bit of professional tactical training with both pistol and shotgun . . . I offer the following advice for home defense:

1. The shotgun is the best choice for home defense IF you and your family will barricade yourselves in one room and remain their until the threat enters and is dealt with accordingly or the threat leaves. 

2. The Mossberg 500 or the 870 are both fine weapons for this purpose. The choice is up to you. I would suggest going to a gun shop that knows what they are doing and seeing which of them "fits" you best in its stock format. There is no real practical need to "upgrade" the magazine tube, grips, forearm, etc. The stock versions of the these weapons will meet any foe you need to deal with.

3. Semi-Auto or Pump Shotgun? Most law enforcement agencies use pump shotguns for the simple reason that they are more reliable. That is, if they are racked back and forth firmly they will rarely if ever jam. The semi-auto carries the possibility of jamming and there are many variables that will cause the jamming in these types of shotguns......i.e. how well maintained they are, type and brand of ammo, what quality of shotgun the semi-auto is, etc. Certainly, one can be confident they will operate flawlessly but this requires a great deal of time . . . . i.e. trying a great number of different brands of ammo, etc. For these reasons the pump shotgun is, in my opinion, the most reliable and what I would suggest you purchase if you are purchasing a shotgun for home defense.

4. If you plan on moving through your home from room to room in the event of a break in, etc...... then you need a handgun . . .. NOT a shotgun. The shotgun is too long for this and it will be easily taken away from you. What type of handgun? That is a whole other topic but given what information you have offered I would strongly suggest a revolver for you. Again, it is reliable, will not jam, simple to use, and safer for you to use. 

5. If you are looking for a handgun I would NOT suggest a Taurus Judge unless you plan on using only .45 long colt ammo in it. The barrel on these weapons is too short to permit effective combustion to adequately accelerate the shotgun ammo's projectiles at a desirable velocity. That is my opinion anyway although I certainly would not want to be hit with one. I am simply looking at worst case scenario's here and stating the handgun that I would bet my life on because that is exactly what you are doing when you buy one for home defense. There are simply much better options in handguns for home defense than the Judge. I would suggest a .357 revolver as you have the option of shooting both the powerful and proven .357 magnum round as well as the much tamer .38 caliber round. You can practice with the .38 rounds until you work up to the .357 magnum. Also, you can use the .38 rounds for home defense until you feel confident on shooting the .357 magnums. Again I suggest going to a good gun shop and have someone help you in finding a gun that fits your hand and grip well.

6. If you opt for the shotgun, DO NOT believe the myth that it is a scatter gun and you will only need to point it in the direction of the intruder and fire and it will hit him no matter what, etc. In most home defense situations you will engaging the threat within 15' or less. Even at 20' the pattern of your shot is going to be small.....4" in diameter perhaps? The point is, in home defense situations the shotgun is going to act more like a rifle than a shotgun and will need to be fired in that manner, i.e. aimed precisely at the target. This means you should measure off the longest possible distance you will shoot in your home and then go to the range and practice shooting your shotgun at that distance with different loads to determine the spread size, accuracy of your weapon, etc. 

7. Lastly, you must ALWAYS think of what is behind the threat as you will be shooting that as well and, perhaps, what is even behind that. You must think these things through and have a plan BEFORE the event happens. Have a plan with all of your family members so they know what to do. I cannot emphasize this enough. In the heat of the moment you will rely on this plan as best you can. 

Well that's a few of my suggestions on this topic. Good luck!


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## DeathFromAbove

Shortdrift said:


> Based on what appears to be your limited experience with firearms I would suggest you purchase a revolver that only requires you to point the pistol and pull the trigger. Get the Taurus Judge, load the first chamber with buckshot and the remaining chambers with a hollow point bullet. There is no need to have more than six rounds for inside home defense as all the shooting will be over in seconds with either the intruder or you retreating, wounded or dead. Keep a night light on so you won't need any additional tactical equipment.


Thats the nice thing about Glocks. No safeties to fumble with in a fire fight. My holster is my safety. Pull,point and shoot.14 rounds downrange should do it.
Glocks always go bang.That you can bet your life on.


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## RELAYER3

The mossberg 500 and the rem 870 are in my opinion 2 of the most sloppiest and unbalanced shotguns ever made. Get yourself a Winchester or a Browning.


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## EnonEye

I keep a revolver holstered to my bed post and an 870 in the basement (mancave). That way I'm always close to the handgun at night and the shotgun in the evening while relaxing around the home. However, if I still had children aorund the house I would not keep the shotgun in the basement. On of my biggest concerns now is home break-ins during the day or evening hours as the criminals are so blatant in their actions. My 870 came from a policeman and has the short 18" barrel for tactical situations that is an open choke. Works really well for hunting smallgame also. Over the years I added a full choke for ducks and a cantilevered, scoped, rifled barrel for deer. Very utilitarian and not all that expensive and holds their value well. 
I think SLUGO has the best overall advice on here, training from a pro is everything.
Lots of good pointers in this thread and a good read.


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## BuzzBait Brad

buckeye dan said:


> Buzzbait Brad,
> 
> What part of the state are you in? After reading the entire thread I recommend you and the wife begin with a good CHL class. I can recommend someone if I know where to send you.


I'm in between dayton and cincinnati


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## BuzzBait Brad

I know I'll have to devote time to practice with whatever type of gun I do purchase. I'm ok with that. I'd like my wife to get to know them too. I'm open to taking classes and/or just have my dad show me some things. He still has kids under the age 16, 11, 9, and 7 that are around the guns all the time and they all know how to use it in case of a situation was to arise. I just wish he would've showed me when I was younger but he just hid all his weapons from us lol


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## buckeye dan

BuzzBait Brad said:


> I'm in between dayton and cincinnati


Give John Farquhar at Mad Duck Training a call. He is the best in your area. In fact is a training counselor and probably trained most of the instructors offering classes in your area. He has an awesome team.
http://www.madduckttc.net/


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## fishhogg

Buzz,
A lot of good points made on this thread. Personally, I think with your limited experience, a shotgun is the way to go. I would go with a 20ga and put a short barrel on it, even a youth model 20ga. I have both shotguns you are looking at, in both 20 & 12ga. I prefer the Rem 20ga youth model for home defense, new it is $300 approx. Short barrel, take out the plug while it is at home to put a couple more rounds in it, light, doesn't kick hard, and my wife will shoot it. 12ga is to much shotgun for her. 00 or 000 buckshot offers a lot of fire power, but will penetrate walls just like a bullet fired from a pistol. I would use a good turkey load, say a no 4 bird shot in 2 3/4". You will need to take it out and shoot it see how it patterns and get a feel for it. Then as your experience and training increase, start looking at other options. don't forget to get some good ccw insurance incase you do have do the un thinkable and actually use your shotgun to protect you & yours. Good luck


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## buckeyebowman

Popspastime said:


> One last point... think about the room sizes in your home, how big are they? You shooting at 8 ft. or less? A shotgun shooting 8 ft. shoots about a 3" pattern no matter what barrel or choke your shooting. Don't believe it, try it sometime and see. You wont stand a chance with a long gun. Sorry, my .02.
> 
> Pops





BuzzBait Brad said:


> The way the place is laid out from front to back of the apartment is probably 30 feet. The bedroom is right next to the front door and is probably 11 x 11 or somewhere around those dimensions. I could bunker myself down in there and still not shoot through walls because my neighbors are to the sides of were I'd be aiming


OK, here's some considerations. True, in a short range situation, a shotgun pattern is not going to open up much, even with a "cylinder" bore. I figure the best you will find in a readily available shotgun will be "improved cylinder". These terms refer to a shotgun's "choke" configuration, or how tightly the end of the barrel "squeezes" the load in order to keep it from spreading too fast. 

But, for the sake of making the math work out easier, let's say that at the range you might expect to shoot, your shotgun's pattern expands to 4 1/2 inches. Doesn't sound like much, but it's still 10 times larger than a .45Cal pistol bullet! Plus, I believe there are "Personal Defense" or "Home Defense" shotgun shells sold that include oddly shaped pellets designed to induce spread. Heck, if you knew someone who does their own reloading, you could have them load up some shells full of lock washers, or little sheet metal screws! Those could really put a hurting on a bad guy at close range. Also might ruin your barrel! But, you and your family would still be breathing!


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## buckeye dan

Buzzbait Brad,

If you are going to stick with the idea of you and your wife using just a shotgun for the purpose of self defense, then the best training you are going to find in Ohio for the civilian market is at TDI.

Here: http://tdiohio.com/home_page/

In that case I would urge you to talk to John Benner or at least a staff member before you proceed with anything. I am pretty sure they are going to steer you towards handgun training before you even think about shotguns for indoor use.


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## BuzzBait Brad

buckeye dan said:


> Buzzbait Brad,
> 
> If you are going to stick with the idea of you and your wife using just a shotgun for the purpose of self defense, then the best training you are going to find in Ohio for the civilian market is at TDI.
> 
> Here: http://tdiohio.com/home_page/
> 
> In that case I would urge you to talk to John Benner or at least a staff member before you proceed with anything. I am pretty sure they are going to steer you towards handgun training before you even think about shotguns for indoor use.










buckeye dan said:


> Give John Farquhar at Mad Duck Training a call. He is the best in your area. In fact is a training counselor and probably trained most of the instructors offering classes in your area. He has an awesome team.
> http://www.madduckttc.net/


Is this something I should do before I purchase a gun?


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## buckeye dan

BuzzBait Brad said:


> Is this something I should do before I purchase a gun?


Brad,
I am an instructor with a long list of credentials who also manages a shooting range. You can take my advice for what it is worth. (Advice on the internet)

My best advice for you and your wife is to seek out some level of training before you purchase anything. A CHL course is just about the best starting place. Your personal defense should not be limited to the home with a shotgun. With your CHL you can carry a handgun everywhere the law will allow all of the time.

Unless you plan to take up hunting or sporting clays in the near future, I would put the shotgun purchase on hold. If there is no real urgency then there is no reason to make hasty decisions or rely on the recommendations from folks on the internet. (Like myself, ironic. I really should have read the thread more carefully before chiming in.)

John over at Mad Duck can provide you with firearms for the class. What you learn in that class will influence your purchase and don't be surprised if what works best for you is completely different from your wife's needs.

After the CHL class, visit shooting ranges that rent guns and try out some more firearms. Take everything you have learned then use it to make an informed purchase and allow the wife to do the same. That way when she walks up to the gun counter and the sales people try to peddle a pink revolver off on her, she can tell them to get bent. Or maybe she would like a pink revolver? I dunno? You get the point.

Don't stop with your training there either. Like 90% of the people do. Seek out more advanced classes and then maybe look into some shotgun training.

FYI, I am not just trying to sell classes for my buddies. Those two companies are where folks like myself go for instruction. They are some of the best in the industry and not just Ohio.


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## Saugernut

X2 on the training, shooting a firearm is a perishable skill unlike riding a bike or falling off a horse.


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## Fishingisfun

I agree with the importance of training I was lucky to have as a TDI guest instructor at a CCW class I took through MOFTA. The TDI instructor was also a LPA and gave insight to the legal implications of your weapon of choice. We fired around 200 rounds for our permit classroom time. Make sure your training is more than a permit mill. I have heard some classes fired one cylinder or a mag to show ability to handle a weapon.
I believe it was on the cheaper than dirt website videos where different rounds are tested on drywall to show how far they can penetrate. If I'm remembering right the buckshot and the 9mm were the most likely to penetrate multiple layers of drywall. As said knowing what is beyond where you shoot is important. So living close to innocent neighbors you would not want accidently hit one in a self defense situation. Some newer thought on self defense weapons goes against what we all felt makes sense. Higher velocity rounds with lighter weight bullets that fragment to lessen the chance of going through layers of walls and possibly into another house nearby. Some trained experts will say using a 223 / 556 round with fragmenting bullets is better for not shooting through walls. I'm sure this will cause screams from many. IMHO I will stick with a handgun and fragmenting rounds. Having no home protection weapon is not good. Ask Dad who has guns if he would show you both the how to operate of a loaner he would let you take back to you apartment. FYI keep it covered when you transport it into your place after parking don't advertise its presence to would be thief's. If Dad has no spares check around for a beater shotgun and use smaller birdshot as others have said. Ask around someone is likely to have a cheap used one that is still sound. Get training for CCW for both of you and pick a handgun you would feel comfortable carrying. Their are cheap handguns that are uglier than a brick a friend owns that shoot well for him and give good service he says. So much so he bought all calibers and say he never had a failure to fire. He bought four Ohio made firearms for what I paid for one. $130 to $140 in local ad in Columbus.
The important thing is for both of you to feel safer at home.


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## joebertin

Not trying to rain on anybody's parade here, but...

No class will prepare you to defend yourself, although you will learn some legalities. As far as gun handling and defensive shooting go, the Concealed Carry courses are a joke.

If you are a novice, join a sportsman's club. Lot's of people there to enthusiastically share knowledge, and let you try different firearms.

If you don't feel like joining a club, frequent a shooting range. You'll find the same kind of enthusiastic help there.

Pick a weapon that is not a rimfire, and shoot it often. Dry fire and cycle it often. Keep it clean, and properly lubed. Become intimately familiar with it.


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## BuzzBait Brad

joebertin said:


> Not trying to rain on anybody's parade here, but...
> 
> No class will prepare you to defend yourself, although you will learn some legalities. As far as gun handling and defensive shooting go, the Concealed Carry courses are a joke.
> 
> If you are a novice, join a sportsman's club. Lot's of people there to enthusiastically share knowledge, and let you try different firearms.
> 
> If you don't feel like joining a club, frequent a shooting range. You'll find the same kind of enthusiastic help there.
> 
> Pick a weapon that is not a rimfire, and shoot it often. Dry fire and cycle it often. Keep it clean, and properly lubed. Become intimately familiar with it.


True but it doesn't hurt to still do training. I'll definitely be doing some classes soon.


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## BuzzBait Brad

buckeye dan said:


> Brad,
> I am an instructor with a long list of credentials who also manages a shooting range. You can take my advice for what it is worth. (Advice on the internet)
> 
> My best advice for you and your wife is to seek out some level of training before you purchase anything. A CHL course is just about the best starting place. Your personal defense should not be limited to the home with a shotgun. With your CHL you can carry a handgun everywhere the law will allow all of the time.
> 
> Unless you plan to take up hunting or sporting clays in the near future, I would put the shotgun purchase on hold. If there is no real urgency then there is no reason to make hasty decisions or rely on the recommendations from folks on the internet. (Like myself, ironic. I really should have read the thread more carefully before chiming in.)
> 
> John over at Mad Duck can provide you with firearms for the class. What you learn in that class will influence your purchase and don't be surprised if what works best for you is completely different from your wife's needs.
> 
> After the CHL class, visit shooting ranges that rent guns and try out some more firearms. Take everything you have learned then use it to make an informed purchase and allow the wife to do the same. That way when she walks up to the gun counter and the sales people try to peddle a pink revolver off on her, she can tell them to get bent. Or maybe she would like a pink revolver? I dunno? You get the point.
> 
> Don't stop with your training there either. Like 90% of the people do. Seek out more advanced classes and then maybe look into some shotgun training.
> 
> FYI, I am not just trying to sell classes for my buddies. Those two companies are where folks like myself go for instruction. They are some of the best in the industry and not just Ohio.


Thanks for all the info!


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## Dovans

joebertin said:


> Not trying to rain on anybody's parade here, but...
> 
> No class will prepare you to defend yourself, although you will learn some legalities. As far as gun handling and defensive shooting go, the Concealed Carry courses are a joke.


Mostly what you say is true. I would not go so far as calling the classes a joke. One thing that I learned from my CHL Class was that even though I armed, I am not immune from death. I held my fire arm pointed at my instructor,he still was able to kill me twice. (his gun was still holstered) Point is that you are not invincible even though you carry. My instructor at one time had something to do with a business called MOFTA. What you learn from the class is up to you. I do not think twelve hours is actually long enough. I would not mind seeing that requirement go under review.


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## buckeye dan

joebertin said:


> Not trying to rain on anybody's parade here, but...
> 
> No class will prepare you to defend yourself, although you will learn some legalities. As far as gun handling and defensive shooting go, the Concealed Carry courses are a joke.


It sounds to me as if you had a bad CHL class experience but that doesn't apply to every instructor or their class. It's not fair or accurate to use the blanket statements above because you haven't experienced a good CHL course.

Obtaining a CHL and carrying for at least 1 year is a prerequisite requirement for more advanced classes at the most reputable training facilities. At the minimum you must have the proper equipment to complete the next level class and a valid CHL. You can't legally train without the CHL because every intermediate civilian class that I am aware of deals with working from concealment as part of the curriculum.

As I said before, a CHL class is just about the best starting place for training. That is because it is actually necessary for progressing your training on that path. I guess I should have specified a *good* CHL class is just about the best starting place.

For anyone considering a CHL class there are 3 questions to ask.
1) How long is the class? If it is anything less than 12 hours then walk away because it is not currently a legal class.
2) What curriculum do you use for the classroom portion and do I get to keep the materials? Really cheap backyard and garage instructors will (sometimes not always) yank all your material and recycle it for their next class. Or they develop their own curriculum. That may not be a deal breaker for some and it is one way to keep costs down so a cheap class can be offered in the first place. If it is a custom curriculum it may not be recognized or integrate with more advanced training which causes future problems.
3)What does the firearm qualification portion of the class consist of and is it on site? This is where you get a real sense of what the class will cost you overall and what you will learn from the actual handling and shooting portion of the class. You may find a $75 class but there is hardly a savings if it costs you another $75 in ammunition or $15 in gasoline to qualify and you don't actually learn anything from all those rounds and miles to the range traveled. The other side of that coin is an instructor that has you put X amount of rounds in a X dimension circle. You may feel thrilled and satisfied that the instructor taught you how to hit the bulls eye 10 times in a row but what did you really learn as it pertains to practical self defense?

Do your due diligence while shopping for a proper CHL course to avoid disappointment. 

@Joebertin
If you know someone that needs a CHL class and you recommend them to me, I will let you sit in on that class with your friend or family member for free if you can produce a valid license prior to the class. Compare that experience to what your class was and what you learned and talk about it here if you would like.


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## joebertin

buckeye dan said:


> As I said before, a CHL class is just about the best starting place for training.


Thanks for the offer on the class.

I agree completely, "starting place" is better than "joke".

I believe that the course I took was as good as most, based on conversations with people that took other courses.

My point was to become proficient with the firearm you plan on carrying. You will not get that from a CCW class.


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## fredg53

buckeye dan said:


> You can extend the magazine capacity on an 870 much easier and cheaper than a Mossberg. It's less than $50 on an 870 by adding an extension tube and spring. With the Mossberg you have to replace the entire magazine, spring and barrel.


This is right on


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## plumberroy

#1 at inside the home nothing has the stopping power of a 12 ga. shotgun (unless you count a 10 ga  ) 
#2 in a home defense situation if you can't get it done with 5 rounds, 7 ain't going to make a difference 
# 3 like to see you take a pumpgun from me clearing a house, you may get your hands on the muzzle end of the barrel but you will not survive it 
#4 pistol grip only shotguns look cool aren't cool to shoot


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## Popspastime

Your in bed sleeping, you hear an intruder in your house, where's your shotgun and what do you do? 
Now tell me without making up a story, where your shotgun is right now..? Mine are all in the safe where I cant get to them. Oh.. you keep yours on a strap hanging from your shoulder or standing along side your bed? Maybe stood up by the fridge? lol.. 

Get some good instruction and keep shooting with a sidearm is my advise.


Pops


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## plumberroy

Popspastime said:


> Your in bed sleeping, you hear an intruder in your house, where's your shotgun and what do you do?
> Now tell me without making up a story, where your shotgun is right now..? Mine are all in the safe where I cant get to them. Oh.. you keep yours on a strap hanging from your shoulder or standing along side your bed? Maybe stood up by the fridge? lol..
> 
> Get some good instruction and keep shooting with a sidearm is my advise.
> 
> 
> Pops


yep standing by the bed behind the curtain barrel rested between 2 large command strip hooks cruiser ready with a light hanging from the hook. the wall coming down the hall to my bed room is 8 in block have wife dial 911. Between curtain set ups combined with outside lighting and LED nightlights, you would have to take the power out to the neighborhood to not be back lit coming down that hall. you would need to get by the outside dog and inside dog and I am an extremely light sleeper. If you don't try to come down that hall I will wait for the police to deal with an intruder .


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## joebertin

plumberroy said:


> yep standing by the bed behind the curtain barrel rested between 2 large command strip hooks cruiser ready with a light hanging from the hook. the wall coming down the hall to my bed room is 8 in block have wife dial 911. Between curtain set ups combined with outside lighting and LED nightlights, you would have to take the power out to the neighborhood to not be back lit coming down that hall. you would need to get by the outside dog and inside dog and I am an extremely light sleeper. If you don't try to come down that hall I will wait for the police to deal with an intruder .


Sounds like a good plan. Bravo!


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## BuzzBait Brad

Ended up going with the remington 870 express after several months and countless hours of researching! 








Purchased yesterday. Read through the manual today and dissemabled and assembled a couple times to get a better grasp on what I'm doing. Going to try it out next weekend shooting some clays.

If I'm gonna get into duck hunting or squirrel or rabbit hunting, do I need a different choke tube than the one that came with it?


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## Fishingisfun

Good choice. I will guess you got the modified choke tube with the gun. It will work fine for everything you want to hunt. Opinions will vary but when shotguns had only fixed chokes I did it all with the modified choke on my shotgun. Back then we changed shot size to hunt different game not choke tubes. Now it is time to take it out and go hunting.


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## BuzzBait Brad

Fishingisfun said:


> Good choice. I will guess you got the modified choke tube with the gun. It will work fine for everything you want to hunt. Opinions will vary but when shotguns had only fixed chokes I did it all with the modified choke on my shotgun. Back then we changed shot size to hunt different game not choke tubes. Now it is time to take it out and go hunting.


Yep its modified choke. Good to know. I probably won't take it out hunting right away. I want to learn everything about it before anything else


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## etheostoma

I have a VEPR 12. I absolutely love it. Reliable. With 3 inch slugs and buck it has less recoil than my 20 gauge semi Winchester with 2-3/4 low brass bird shot. 5,8,10,12 round mags. Folding stock. I do not have the muzzle brake, but a buddy of mine does and claims that it feels like a .223 when you shoot it. Much better than a Saiga. Get one while you still can since El Presidente banned them from importation.


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## buckeye dan

Congratulations Brad.

If you only received a modified choke, you'll want to add at least a full choke and an imp cyl choke to the collection. You may even opt for a rifled slug barrel and/or a smooth bore shorty barrel. 

It's great you are familiarizing yourself with the gun. Make sure you familiarize yourself with the ammo too. What load to use for which critters. What loads to use for home defense that won't exit your dwelling and kill the neighbors etc. etc.

Word of advice on the express exterior finish. If you use it in inclement weather, handle the metal or store it for extended periods...Coat it liberally with a good gun oil. The express finish rusts terribly. Store it where it can breath as opposed to a hard plastic case with foam liners or zipping it up in a soft case.

I'll be interested to see what this morphs into a year or two from now.


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## BuzzBait Brad

buckeye dan said:


> Congratulations Brad.
> 
> If you only received a modified choke, you'll want to add at least a full choke and an imp cyl choke to the collection. You may even opt for a rifled slug barrel and/or a smooth bore shorty barrel.
> 
> It's great you are familiarizing yourself with the gun. Make sure you familiarize yourself with the ammo too. What load to use for which critters. What loads to use for home defense that won't exit your dwelling and kill the neighbors etc. etc.
> 
> Word of advice on the express exterior finish. If you use it in inclement weather, handle the metal or store it for extended periods...Coat it liberally with a good gun oil. The express finish rusts terribly. Store it where it can breath as opposed to a hard plastic case with foam liners or zipping it up in a soft case.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what this morphs into a year or two from now.


Thanks for the info! I'll definitely be taking good care of this one. I'll be investing in a nice gun cleaning kit for sure before I go for any upgrades.


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## Minnowhead

Just grabbed this shotgun today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## BuzzBait Brad

Minnowhead said:


> Just grabbed this shotgun today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


That thing looks awesome. What kind?


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## Minnowhead

MOSSBERG M590A1 with Ghost ring sights. Thinking about tricking it out!
Have to run some slugs and Buck shot through it first. It has a bayonet lug on the end, might put one on it just to take a picture and see how many responses I get on here! Lmao
It's one sweet shotty!
Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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## BuzzBait Brad

Minnowhead said:


> MOSSBERG M590A1 with Ghost ring sights. Thinking about tricking it out!
> Have to run some slugs and Buck shot through it first. It has a bayonet lug on the end, might put one on it just to take a picture and see how many responses I get on here! Lmao
> It's one sweet shotty!
> Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


Lol nice. Definitely a cool looking gun.


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## Minnowhead

Just ordered this from MOSSBERG. I've got a safe to keep it in but want something to mount hidden for home defense access. I really think this is a cool way of keeping ready and safe. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire


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