# Culling bass



## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

For those of you who do this, do you look for/ have standards on which fish to take out. For example I took out 30+ foot longs from my pond this year on the base of if they were a foot long or less they were gone. This also worries me because whose to say that foot long doesn't have trophy genes? So is there anything to look at on small bass as far as features that may indicate a potentially good bass?


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## JSykes3 (Oct 14, 2010)

Maybe stomach size? If they are eating more then others then they probably have more potential/get food before the others. Pretty much they are bullies, lol. Just a thought.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

JSykes3 said:


> Maybe stomach size? If they are eating more then others then they probably have more potential/get food before the others. Pretty much they are bullies, lol. Just a thought.


Totally agree, and i obviously will not put back a foot long that has a large stomach for its size, guess i should of mentioned that in my orginial post


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## JSykes3 (Oct 14, 2010)

Haha, I hope. Hope someone else can help you out with other signs.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I cull nearly all small bass with the exception of the occasional outstanding example. Keeping a low ratio of lbs of bass to lbs. of forage is the key to growing large bass. What I would consider as an outstanding bass is one that is exceptionally heavy for it's length. This is essentially using the Wr (relative weight) scale to determine which individuals remain and which are culled. here's a link http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-1193/ANR-1193.pdf

When using a Wr scale, it's best to take an average of like sized fish over the season to see how each size class measures up. This will help indicate which classes are doing well and which are struggling and help you make the decision of which fish to cull. 

The primary reason for removing mostly small bass is because the smaller fish will eat the forage fish before they reach ideal size for the larger bass. Oftentimes the larger bass will end up eating the smaller bass, actually they prefer to eat bass than bluegill due to their shape. The problem with this scenario is that it is a very inefficient conversion of pond resources. Here's why: say it takes 10lbs of bluegill to grow 1 lb of bass so it takes 50 lbs of bluegill to grow a 5 pound bass. To grow a 5lb bass from smaller bass you're going to need to grow 500 lbs of bluegill to grow 50lbs of small bass so that one big bass can gain 5lbs. This is worse case theory and doesn't actually work out quite this bad in the real world but it gives you an idea of the significance.

There may be times when you may need to cull some larger class fish that are not performing well to allow those like sized remaining fish to thrive as well.

Keep a scale and ruler handy and keep a catch record that also includes the catch date. to help you make culling decisions and to see if your management is having a positive effect. Use a heavy hand when culling the little guys because you'll never catch them all. You'll also have to decide what is most important to you, do you want to catch 1 huge bass per month or several good sized ones per week.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks for all the info. What kind of forage is readily available in Ohio that can get you the best bang for the buck? Is it possible to get threadfin shad, or would I have to look out of state? My pond is 27-30 foot deep in its deepest part.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Threadfin will no overwinter in Ohio. Depth of pond makes little difference as long as it's deeper than 6'. How many surface acres?

The best bang for your buck is going to be growing your own forage in the pond through good management. Bluegill and possibly golden shiners will be your forage for bass. If you have a lot of 6-8lb bass then there are other forage options.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

It's around 3 acre. I've considered shinners but im afraid they'd get eaten to quickly. Biggest bass I got out of there this year was 6.1lbs. I also imported two 4 lb fish and three 3 lb fish.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

6lbs is a good sized pond fish. 

Stick with managing the bluegills. There really isn't a better forage fish for ponds in Ohio. Any new bass you bring in will need to be offset by removing equal lbs. to maintain growth. It is also likely that these new fish will not perform as well as bass reared and grown within the pond. With good management, that 12 incher you removed could have been 3lbs in a year or two.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree and was happy to have caught it. Before that i was was catching 3lb fish as the biggest. Whenever i would bring in the new bass i made sure an equal weight was taken out. Although i may be incorrect, the point of me bringing in the bigger fish is genetics. That particular fish i put in may not grow to trophy size but i believe, wrong or right, that if that fish is able to breed in my pond through time it will serve its purpose.

The biggest goal i have this winter it to place habitat for the forage, whichever it may be i go with, to live and hide. Im trying to learn as much as possible and appreciate your responses so far.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Genetics aren't as big of a deal as many people may think. Water quality, readily available and easily obtained food is far more important. Also keep in mind that a bass that is not thriving will not reproduce well.

Fish farm bass are usually a good bet to diversify genetics. Most select fish from stock that exhibit good food conversion and growth rates. Size=money for a fish farm. They should also know how old their fish are. Unless your checking the age of the fish your stocking from elsewhere, you could be introducing less favorable genes.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Not sure i agree with genetics not being that important. I dont see how the odds wouldnt favor a good gene strain of a bass over a less then favorable gene of bass? That makes no sense. Totally agree on the points of water quality and food <--obviously, without an abundance of food a good or bad gene fish would never amount to anything.

Heres a good read to back my point instead of me getting in a pissing match....

http://www.pondboss.com/free_articles.asp?id=32&p=2

Heres another tab out of an article...

As the pond manager, as the one in charge of that fishery, stay focused on the four key elements. You must do that. Here they are, in order. Get them out of order, don't expect great fish. Habitat, first. Focus on that. Next, food chain. If you feed them, they will grow. *Third, genetics. Genetics are absolutely essential to producing trophy largemouth bass*. Last, and probably the most important, once everything else is in place, is proper harvest.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Luns, I am sincerely trying to help you, I have no interest in competition as I am here to learn as well. From your question about threadfin shad and telling me how deep the pond was vs. the surface acres initially, I had assumed you were a novice pond manager. I am/was trying to get you in the right direction while trying to keep things simple. I said "Genetics aren't as big of a deal as many people may think" They are significant but poor genes are seldom the source of a population not reaching it's potential. Your goals have not been clearly defined so I may be misleading you.

The two primary points I was trying to make were 1) that water quality and food were most important...there's no point in adding more fish until these are right. 2) That the odds of you catching a bass with superior genes and you having the tools and knowledge to verify that a fish does in fact possess superior genes to what you already have in the pond or could purchase from a farm are slim. This was somewhat in response to your where you stated that you added two 4lbers and a 3 lber. Genetic diversification can be bad too as you could possibly introduce less desireable traits (such as slow growth rate or short life span) into the population.


I hold Bob Lusks opinion in high regards. I own a couple of his books and have taken personal recommendations from him with my pond with good results. Mr. Lusk is from Texas and most (not all) of his experience and publications are related to Southern ponds.

The article you quoted was talking primarily about Florida Bass genetics and it says "If your fishing pond lies much north of the 35th parallel it may be wise to hedge your fish genetic bet" You're about 400 miles North of the line and test groups of F1s (Florida x Native) have not performed as well as natives in Ohio. Florida bass will not survive our winters.

Barry Smith was often quoted in the article and has bred and selected a native strain he calls "Gorilla bass" of which is one half the F1 "Tiger Bass" he produces. The Gorilla bass are sometimes added to ponds to breed with and improve aggressiveness of Florida bass stocked ponds. These fish are Southern raised and likely won't do well this far North. Mr. Smith will tell you the same but he may be able to send you in the right direction for a good hatchery in our region...here's his number (334) 281-7703.

I recommended going with hatchery fish, your article supports this as well: "Work with local fisheries biologists to learn where to find those stocks. Don't expect Florida bass raised in Texas to do well if they're stocked in Nebraska ponds. They won't. Find fish native to your region." ATAC is a sponsor here and are often on the forum and may be able to help you better as well. You can with other farms as well to see where they're getting stock or if they're raising their own.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Pond, by no means did I mean any disrespect. Like I said before I appreciate your advice thus far. I only posted those links to back my opinion that I feel genetics are important. I'll type more when I get home but I wanted to make sure you know disrespect was not the intent.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Alright, much better, so much easier typing on a computer compared to my cell phone...

So lets start with my preception/opinion on growing big bass and hopefully i can tie that into my plans for my pond and hopefully get feedback . Years back i was never much into managing my pond and didnt think much of it, that changed about 3 years ago. I was reading a book on trophy bass and one of the chapters was about Texas and their ShareLunker program. For those that dont know this program in a nutshell is breeding and genetics. If you land a bass over 13lbs, you call this number and a guy comes and takes the fish to the "lunker bunker" i wish we had one of these in Ohio.....Anyways, once here the fish is bread with similiar fish and when the fry hatch the state disperses the fry all over the state in hopes that one of these fry will be the next world record. The fish is then yours to keep or throw back, and either way you get a free replica mount of the fish. So this got me thinking if a state is putting all this money into a program based mostly on the belief that by breeding larger bass, through time, they would grow the next world record, that genetics have to be a huge part of growing big bass.....

So after my read i started to tinker in one of my small ponds. I would import bigger fish, anything over 3lbs, and play with this idea. At first i would catch some fish that were skinny, this was obviously because lack of food. So from there i went on and started putting out crawfish traps and throwing the cast net for gizzard shad at the resivoir to put extra food in the pond. By the end of that summer i had started to learn about the importance of food in that i caught a few fish that had softballs in there stomachs. Obviously there was no way of telling if the genetic factor was working because it was only the first summer of me doing this, but this taught me that food is something to worry about ontop of genetics to grow the bass.

Fast forward to this year, 3 years later from that time. Im feeling like ive learned quite a bit, obviously no expert but feeling confident. I start to take on my big pond, the 3 acre one. My goals are as follows....genetics(importing bigger breeder fish, while culling out the small bass to promote less competition), food(find a forage that can grow to decent size without upsetting my already established ecosystem), and lastly habitat(make homes for these smaller fish to grow and give ambush points to the larger fish).

So in a nut shell, do i plan to to import fish and grow it to be the next state record, h*ll no, but like the sharelunker program i feel if i can import fish that are over 3lbs and breed them with similiar 3lb fish through time with all of my other goals, i may be able to attain fish above 5,6,7 pounds frequently. I feel those fish over 3lbs have to have something right going for them, i mean how many people in Ohio would love to just catch a 3, its not everyday you pull them out.

I hope this gave you some more info to work with Pond and you and others can give me more ideas or critique my ideas.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I think we're making progress Luns.

The Share-a-Lunker program is great and I too wish something like it existed in Ohio. I think it would be a far better investment of funds than saugeye, wiper, or channel cat stocking especially considering the revenue generated from bass fisherman vs. the previously mentioned species.

Personally a 3 lber is great if it's less than 2 years old. You can get a rough idea of the age by taking a scale sample and checking it under a microscope. It's like counting rings on a tree. If that fish is 4 or 5 years old, it's nothing special but a lot of factors come into play performance is relative to the population is came from. I don't think it's worth the trouble as there are better alternatives. I think any bass over 7lbs would automatically be in the exceptional class though.

Do some research on Gizzard Shad in ponds in Ohio. There is a point when they are safe and maybe even good to use but based on what you've described so far you're not there yet. They're tough and counterproductive to bass growth to eliminate once established and oftentimes do more harm than good. As I said, there are exeptions. Don't bother reading about shad in Southern waters.

If you have a second small pond, this would be a great tool in improving the larger pond. If I had such a resource, I would turn it into a forage pond growing fatheads and golden shiners to supplement the larger pond during times in the year when forage can get scarce.

As far as genetic selection goes, I think you could save yourself a lot of time and likely get far better results if you purchase bass from a good source. If you want to take it a step further, you could buy something like 25 fish from each of a few good sources, (keep in mind that many farms buy fingerlings from the same source) and grow them out for a season yourself in another pond or alternately in cages and then select the top 10% for stocking into your big bass pond. This isn't perfect as some research has shown some fish will outgrow others in the same lot at different times in their lifecycle but it would highly tip the odds in your favor.


There's also a big factor that although some fish are growing faster than others they may not possess superior growth potential but are rather are simply outcompeting the other fish. It's kind of like how one person can be smarter than another but the other person works harder making them more successful. The key is what set of genes perform best in your pond which is why I was suggesting that managing the existing population is a good bet.

Regardless of all this genetic stuff, there must be food available constantly and easily obtained. Be forewarned though as well fed bass won't go to much trouble to chase down a lure. Big bass ponds with unlimited food oftentimes aren't much fun to fish as you may only catch 3 fish a month compared to 3 fish an hour in a typical farm pond.

The best advice I can give you is to keep detailed records of stocking, culling, observations, supplemental feeding, and length/weight of fish caught. This record is invaluable in monitoring what's happening, what's changing and then improving on your plan. Every pond is different with different goals and management needs to be custom tuned to each.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

You make good points again Pond, it sucks still though that we cant come to an agreement on genetics, but it also helps in that it can give me another opinion then my own. I guess im just taken back that you dont commend an Ohio 3lb no matter the age as a per say "special fish." Most of the 3 and 4 pound fish came from public waters which in my opioion if your getting 3+ pound fish out of Ohio public waters you got something going. Im not worried if i catch 30 fish a day in my pond, im just going for size. Dont get me wrong i used to, but i throw swimbaits and ill go days/week(s) without a hit at times, its just part of the game, but when you do get hit most times its worth the wait. Two weeks ago i went out on the full moon and i had been fishless/without a bite for over a week and a half, throwing a 7.5" wake bait that night and after about 15 minutes i stuck a 4.2lb, first fish in almost two weeks, you talk about being patient lol!

As far as gizzard shad goes, there is no way im putting them into my 3 acre, they just get to big if they survive and would become a pest more then anything ie Upper Sandusky Resivoir #1. Thats why i was hoping i could get some insight on the threadfin as they dont get to be but 5-6" in length compared to the 12+" possibilities of the gizzard. I keep doing research on the golden shiners and i think its the route i will take. I saw on a site a place that sells them in april and may and can overnight the fry. If i go with this route id like to almost set up a "staging area" in the pond that keeps the fry in like a netted off area to give them a chance to get a bit larger before i release them. Have you, or do you know of anyone or any article that may speak more of a way to close off a very small portion of pond as an almost holding tank for the growth of young fry? I have a few areas of cattails that i think would serve a good purpose in that i believe i read when its time for the GS to spawn it will on vegetation and so forth, couldnt the cat tails work for a spawning ground, or am i wrong?


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Luns, I don't think we disagree but looking at the importance relative to your pond and fish differently. I mean, a wild mustang could never win the Kentucky Derby.

Your pond (some assumptions being made based on sizes of fish caught), has produced multiple generations of bass and those fish that have survived to adults, outcompeted others for the best nesting sites and gone on to reproduce generation after generation, each cycle producing a more fit bass for your particular pond. After all, it has produced a 6lber already right? Think of how big that fish would have been given perfect habitat and unlimited food every moment of it's life.

I personally wouldn't bet on a 3lb bass that has gone through a longer natural selection from a lake likely very different than your pond and especially in a state that uses minimum size limits as opposed to slot limits. I mean what happens when you remove the fastest growing and largest growing bass over multiple generations? It'sthe opposite of Share-a-Lunker. 

I believe that the fish already being produced in your pond are likely superior...for your pond...and there are better sources for genetics if you desire diversification. The bass isn't always greener in the other pond.

Golden Shiners...I think your talking about Anderson's minnows. They are fry/tiny tiny but pretty economical for shear numbers. I think it's worth a try. They are TINY, it would take and extremely fine net to keep them captive within the pond and keeping ambitious bass out could be challenging. You know what I mean if you've ever seined a pond.

I don't have any golden shiners mainly because I don't have structure for them to hide or reproduce and when I first built my pond there was some debate on whether they robbed bluegill nests of eggs and that without adequate vegetation couldn't self sustain...basically bluegill were a better option for me along with fatheads stocked in a predator free pond. There are artificial spawning mats available for them though. All I know is that ideally they need grass to spawn. I'm not sure if cattails, or their roots will work well. I don't think it would hurt to try. Golden shiners do seem to survive far better than fatheads with predators present so they're the best bet between the two. I don't know of anyone who has been successful adding fatheads and have them self sustain in an established pond such as yours.

If you could erradicate that smaller pond of existing fish it could be a goldmine for supplemental forage. The advantage being that they could freely reproduce and grow to full size without bluegill and small bass eating a large portion before reaching full size.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> If you could erradicate that smaller pond of existing fish it could be a goldmine for supplemental forage. The advantage being that they could freely reproduce and grow to full size without bluegill and small bass eating a large portion before reaching full size.


Quickly, how do the golden shiners or fatheads do in these Ohio winters? These smaller ponds i have are like a max of 8' deep. Id agree itd be awesome to have a pond strictly for breeding forage to then put into my 3 acre but ive always worried there would be a dieoff because the ponds arent deep enough and could suffer winter kill offs.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

They're native so they do great. 4' is probably enough...5-6' should be great. Weeds are usually the biggest problem in shallow ponds...possible O2 problems and tough to seine effectively. I know of a dugout near Columbus the produces very nice bluegills and it's 5' max. Most fish farm grow-out ponds are shallow.

FYI: I think Anderson's sells out early some years.

You can do Rosy Reds (Petsmart) too, they're basically a fathead but pink...easy target. Mosquito fish could be worth a try too. I wouldn't recommend these or fatheads to dump into an existing pond but in a pond with no predators they can go crazy. Heck, you might even be able to get some crawfish going.

Another good source for bass stock I failed to mention could be culls from a well managed pond nearby that has similar characteristics.

Roughly where is your pond? Not an address but at least a city or county.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Im really liking the idea of using one of the ponds as a forage/breeder pond, keep ponding that into my head please lol. Another fish i was wondering about was perch? Are they an easliy digested fish for bass? Profile wise i think theyd be great but after that i dont know much. Last year, i found an 11" perch floating, and when the pond was stocked way back when, my grandpa put perch in. On top of that, the big 6lb i got this year was caught on a perch colored swimbait. Like i had mentioned before, i did mess with crawdads. In doing some read over on pondboss it didnt have to much good to say about crawdads in the sense of the bass trying to digest the shell, and on top of that you can get the "rusty craw" which i learned about on here that can upset an ecosystem. I would also have to import alot of rock for the crawdad, not saying i wouldnt do it, because ill do whatever it takes to get my bass to be fatties just trying to do things right. Lastly, the pond is around Carey (Findlay area).


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

If big bass are the highest priority, perch should be left out. You're right that bass like to eat them but perch are fish eaters and that takes us back to the inefficient use of forage. 

Other fish do not represent a significant portion of the diet of fatheads, shiners and bluegill and this, along with their relatively small max size and high reproduction capability make them a great choice forage fish. Much like how threadfin are ideal in places where they can live. The bluegill has a less than ideal shape but being able to spawn 2 or 3 times per year here makes up for it. Bluegills are able to hold their own in a pond with bass while shiners are questionable and fatheads really can't without supplementing them. Perch only spawn once per year and they spawn very early. Not only do they eat other fish but they get a jumpstart on other species. Spawning of perch also isn't as reliable as bluegill either.

If you're really wanting to get creative with one of those other ponds, I'd love see if someone could get some decent production of Lake Chubsuckers. They're native and could potentially be a perfect forage fish for bass but you'd probably have to catch your broodstock yourself. They're on the threatened list so you may have to check the legality of harvesting. I don't know if common creek chubs will reproduce in a pond but they are ideal less the only spawning once per year part. Spawning once per year isn't such a disadvantage in a pond without predators though.

FWIW, I stocked 3 perch into my pond thinking I didn't have structure for them to spawn on and that they would just grow really big not having much competition. Somehow they managed to spawn and I was concerned I had a real problem on my hands (I think I posted pics somewhere on here). Anyway, I catch on average of 1 perch per year and I haven't trapped a perch in a couple of years so it was hopefully a 1 time event.

There are many varieties of crawfish. This isn't my thing and not saying these are the best choices or even necessary but research the Northern Crayfish and other possible options like the calico. The Northern spawn in mud burrows not rock, they don't burrow too much causing leaks like some can. Really only an option in a predator free forage pond.

If you go the forage pond route, there is a fair amount of info in the aquaculture circles on raising minnows etc...more info and more precise in producing substantial quantities from set-up to harvesting. Maybe start with OSU and Purdue if you go this route. Not as much fun as an enthusiast forum but the info is usually more substantial.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

I kind of thought perch wouldnt be as good of a bet because of their predatory characteristics, but someone mentioned perch to me so i thought id throw it out there. As far as stocking then, like i keep saying im thinking i like the potential GS will have but i also like FHM. Ive never placed an order for stocking for such forage fish. Come spring, how many pounds of fish should i order? Should i even some this fall? I think im going to raise the GS in the supplemental pond, so id be looking more for the amount of pounds to order for FHM, any advice?


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I try not to tell people what to do but rather help them make decisions on what is best for themselves. There's way too much to consider and I'm not qualified to tell you what to do.

Personally, I don't think adding fatheads to a pond with predators is at all cost effective. Few will live long enough to reproduce and are fairly expensive. Those selling fatheads will probably tell you different, if they do, ask them to substantiate their claim with hard data and cost figures and expected results. For example, let's say they want $15 per pound, you stock 100lbs at a cost of $1500 and all are eaten before they can reproduce. Basically, you've just spen $1500 so your population of bass can collectively gain 10lbs. It can be argued that they will reproduce some too but I'm not counting the portion that bluegill will eat. 100lbs may sound like a lot but that only 33lbs per acre and a fairly low number to make a measurable impact. In a forage pond, you could buy 10lbs of fatheads and they'll grow off of food naturally produced for a perpetual supply. You can also increase production by feeding them manufactured food which will like yield somewhere around 1lb of forage for every 1.5lbs of feed. Say feed is $1/pound (high estimate) $600 worth of feed would likely yield 400lbs of minnows. You'll need to check actual costs and research real world growth data for comparison and consider your labor but it gives you the idea of the significance. The farm you buy minnows from has overhead, equipment, delivery, tax, labor and insurance built into their price that you won't DIY.

In most ponds there are times when forage fish are in short supply and opportunity for bass growth is lost. Supplementing can help. Your need for supplementation will vary depending on the bass:bluegill ratio management. 

I've seen ratio's as high as 2000:1 bluegill:bass stocked in Southern waters. Pretty far off from the 100 bass per acre that is often used by those selling fish. 2000:1 sounds crazy but results were gains of 3lbs per year per fish on average (South though). Rather than stocking more forage, the other option is cropping down the bass to improve the ratio....how this whole thread started in the first place. Bass Wr averages over the season will tell you if they're short on food. In well managed ponds 115% Wr average is common, meaning that the fish are on average 15% heavier than typical average bass by weight for a given length. It takes time and good data to make good management choices.

Feeding pellets also will increase the lbs of forage and therefore the bass indirectly. This is usually the most economical and easiest option behind decreasing the bass. 

You'll have to carefully consider what your personally want to invest in time and money mostly and what you want out of the pond to come up with a plan that's a good fit for your goals.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Well at the end of the day like you said all i can do is take the information and come up with a plan.Thank you Pond for your time and responses they will definatley be taken into consideration. All i can do, about next year at this time, is let the people who followed our talks, in on what i did and results from those choices i made. Pond if your ever in the Findlay area and want to get a line wet, feel free to shoot me PM and id be glad to take you out.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Thanks for the offer Luns. I may take you up on that sometime. I have a 5" bluegill swimbait I could use some lessons on. I've flown over Findlay's lake(s) just East of town severaly times and wondered how the fishing was, both fair weather and ice.

BTW, I set my minnow trap on Saturday night and pulled it late Sunday morning. Inside were 28, 2-1/2" bluegill, two tadpoles, one 4" bass and a 6" Perch. I'm not even sure how that perch fit through the 1" hole but I apparently have a few left.

Keep us posted on what's happening. 

I think minnow traps are usefull in keeping an eye on what's going on with the forage and allows me to cull the bass very early. You'd probably need several for your pond.

I'd like to see what kind of improvements your making in your culling efforts by taking the lengths/weights from this fall and comparing them to next falls data.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Pond, was able to take my grandpa out a bit last night to the pond. As usual i was throwing the big baits and didnt get bit but my grandpa got one and i was able to do the length/weight. The fish was a tad under 12" and weighed 11oz. I wish we could have got more to get a better idea of where we are at but with that one fish we are pretty close to the recommendations. I plan to start a log from here on out to get a better idea. Thanks again.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Well i put down the big baits tonight and picked up the fairy wand with a rattle trap. Was able to catch 15 bass in a little over 2 hours. Bad news is, not one of them was over 1 pound, but i was able to get lengths and weights for all but 2 (they were to small to waste my time)

11.5" - 11oz
11" - 11oz
9" - 5oz
11" - 8oz
11.25" - 9oz
11.75 - 10oz
11" - 9oz
11" - 8oz
9" - 6oz
8" - 4oz
8.5" - 5oz
11" - 9oz
10.5" - 9oz


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

In doing the math, I came up with the bass being in the 83 percentile for what the recommended w/r should be.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

You're off to a great start. 

Keep in mind the Wrs are based on averages of like sized fish over a given timeframe usually and your Wr scale you're comparing to should best case be from or near your area. Fish are heavier or lighter throughout a season depending on the sex of the fish and food available at that moment in that particular pond. The scale gives you an idea of where you are but comparison to a scale isn't nearly as important from a management standpoint as comparing historical data within the pond itself. 

Let's look at you're 11 inchers...I would include all bass >=11 and <12. Put them together and they average 9.375 ounces or .59 lbs. I think for your area .6-.8lbs would be average for 11 inch class fish based on average weights across the season. You're fish are close to average based on the limited timeframe of the data. So what can we take from this?

Well, for being relatively unmanaged, they're doing fine. Can they be improved? Absolutely...and now you have something to compare against as changes are made. 

Don't get too hung up on what percentile or how they compare to these scales. Yeah, they may be a little light at the moment but a month previous or month from now they may measure differently and having the records will allow you to determine if what your doing is working or not.

I've seen some go overboard on data collection. You can tag, track age, weight growth of indivual fish, include dates, hourly catch rates etc. Personally, too much can be overwelming to deal with and takes too much time away from the fun stuff. 

I prefer to take broad strokes. Date, length, weight is usually enough along with secondary stuff like when fish are added and removed, chemical application dates/amounts are good minimum amounts of data. Personally, general observations notes, short and to the point can prove handy as well. Keep it simple and you'll be more likely to keep up with it. I recorded a lot of secondary stuff starting out but now only write down things that are different....so it gets easier as time goes by.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Obviously this will be your opinion, but do you think there is an imediate need to cull out a bunch of the smaller bass or should i just stick to my plan of golden shiners in the spring and alot of structure this winter?


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I probably would have culled all the fish you posted, maybe put back the two 11 oz. ones. I would want more data before putting a fish back though. I prefer to err on the side of over-harvest as it is easier to correct than underharvest but a bass culled at 11" will never get any bigger either. You'll have to see what works for you and find a balance your happy with in both size and catch rates.

A lot of stocking plans use 100 bass per acre. I think this number is double what it should be for good growth. Even at 50 bass per acre, without supplemental feeding and culling, the bass population can grow too much to sustain good growth within 3 years. High population bass ponds are a lot of fun to fish though.

Think of growing big bass like gardening. You could plant some tomatoes and lettuce out in the pasture and they will probably grow and produce a meager crop or you can till a plot, amend the soil, fertilize and keep it weeded and produce a far better crop. The tomatoes and lettuce have more food available and they can get it easier as they aren't competing with the pasture grasses for available nutrients in a garden. No two gardeners do things the same as each garden has different needs and gardeners have different priorities.

Effects of lbs. of forage added will be relative to the pounds of predators. There's no guarantee adding shiners will make a measurable improvement but at least you've started collecting data to see if it does or not.

Structure doesn't grow more fish but gives a fisherman something to cast to, unless you're talking about spawning structure.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

I did throw out 4 and for a second i thought just like you said, throwing all back except the 2 11oz fish. This is how this all kind of started. I swear you can go back there and catch 30 bass if you wanted to and all of them will be around 11"-12". This had me worried my bass had stunned growth. Which then snowballed into this whole thread we have now. Sure you will catch the rare big fish here and there but not as often as youd think for a guy who fishes as much as i do.

As far as the structure it would be habitat and spawning, atleast that would be the intent of it, not just a place to cast.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

This little guy was just under 11" and right at 1lb a few minutes ago.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

I got some more numbers to post for you here in a bit. Thats my biggest problem, all the fish im catching are pretty much 11" and they are 8 times out of 10 weighing in at 9oz. I would love to have a bunch of that fish swimming around, but theres obviously work to do. Maybe i will snap a few pics of fish im catching too just so you got an idea, they dont look skinny by any means but definately not as healthly as that one.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I have lots of 2-1/2" bluegills right now and they're loading up. Heavy culling allows the ones remaining to flourish. I've had times when I slacked off and they were much lighter. Some of my bass are on pellets too which really gives them a boost and carries them through lean forage periods. You may have to pull a hundred lbs to make a dent in a 3 acre pond.

Here's a what the bigger ones look like. Notice the small head compared to the body.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Thats a solid fish, it sucks because i have them in there, getting them to bite is another story though. I had a solid 3lber swimming by the boat yesterday, which i thought was kind of weird, but obviously no action. Since ive gotten on this big kick ive taken out about 40 bass so far, and could have taken out alot more but im still convincing my grandpa that taking out the small ones is what it takes to get a pond to strive. Your small BG is an area where my pond needs work. Like i said i plan to put ALOT of structure in this winter, i just dont feel like there is enough cover for them right now and they get eaten by all these 11" clowns. By the cat tails there are quit a few small forage fish and their holding tight to it so im hoping the more structure i can get in there the more small forage i can have survive to get to live past an inch lol.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Didnt go today but yesterday and the day before the bite was real slow but here are the results....

11" - 9oz
9 1/2" - 6oz
11" - 10oz
9" - 6oz
10" - 8oz
11" - 9oz
11" - 9oz


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Structure doesn't grow fish, it gives you a place to cast to. Cover, as in dense vegetation can give fry refuge and harbor other tasty morsels. I have little of either.

Don't expect much as far as correcting population dynamics from adding structure.

Bass the size you posted are filletable and are quite tasty.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Just like genetics I will agree to disagree. Thick brush provides cover just like thick cover of grass. I know it wont grow fish but it keeps bigger fish at bay because they can't maneuver through the brush. In the end its about survival and if that 1" BG is able to use the brush as a hide out the brush served its purpose and because of that, that BG may be now 2".


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I understand what your saying but much like the genetics, I don't think we disagree wholly but more your interpretation and execution in regards to a managed pond. I may be able to clear up what I was trying to say now that I have a keyboard. 

First, I consider cover to be things like weeds, lilly pads, submerged grass, dense and bushy in general and structure to be things like rock piles, points, channels, maybe even logs or the edge of a weedbed.

Studies have shown that bass grow faster/larger in lakes without or very little cover. However, in lakes like this bass can quickly devastate their forage base and overpopulate which leads to slowed or stunted growth eventually. 

Bass growth doesn't slow because the lake is lacking cover but rather because there is not enough food for the number of bass. To correct this imbalance and maintain optimal growth, solutions would be to increase food (within the limits of the system) and/or decrease bass.

Adding cover can increase the the amount of food available slightly but it also makes it harder for the bass to catch it. Energy expended is weight lost. In a pond were fish populations aren't being actively managed, 10-15% cover can grow better quality fish in some scenarios than the same pond without cover. However, a cover free pond with population management will outgrow a pond with cover and population management because it's easier for the bass to catch the prey in the cover-free pond.

Bass in cover free ponds tend forage on their own young better than in ponds with cover allowing the bass to self cull their offspring at a younger age. Studies have also shown that bass in weedy lakes grow significantly slower their first year than lakes with little cover and in comparing like aged fish, cover free lakes have larger bass when comparing same age fish. Bass never stop growing but their lifespan is limited so getting as much growth each year of their life is key.

Cover isn't bad either. Bushy plants that can fairly easily be navigated by bass and bluegill and provide good habitat for various stages of insects and other critters can be a valuable asset in producing food for small bass and forage fish. Like everything else, it's about balance.

My primary point is don't think dragging a bunch of trees out onto the ice this winter is going to make much of a difference in growing bigger bass. It may help you catch a few though.


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## Luns (Feb 10, 2010)

Some more fish from the the past few days, its been slow......

10.5" - 9oz
11" - 10oz
8" -5oz
11" - 9oz
9" - 6oz
11" - 8oz

Went out this afternoon and ended up catching 13, results are as follows......

11" - 10oz
11" - 9oz
10.5" - 8oz
11" - 10oz
11" - 112oz
11" - 9oz
10" - 8oz
11.5" - 11oz
10" - 7oz
10" - 7oz
17" - 2lbs 10oz
10.5" - 9oz
16" - 1lb 15oz


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