# Deer kill



## viper1 (Apr 13, 2004)

After all the talk about a low deer kill and coyotes hurting the deer herd. ODNR released that the kill is 1% lower then same period last year. And still part of the season left to go.

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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

What are these numbers telling YOU?


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## whitetailwarrior (May 5, 2012)

My personal take on the issue is that there are more unethical hunters out there than we think and sure they might buy a special deer permit and carry it with them which ODNR is making there money on it, but whose to say that they don't fill it out and report there harvest with the new report system. Which leads to more deer harvested and most likely more than one buck for these unethical hunters. I personally hunt a urban deer unit and I just have not seen the number of deer that I have prior to last season when the new check-in system started. My take...bring back the check-in system we had before!!!


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I am not sure if your implying that there are going to be a lot more deer killed this year than last because there is part of the season left to go? If so that should be irrelevant if comparing the same period of time between each years. My guess is that if we are truly 1% below last year's number then we will likely end up anywhere from even to 5% under. Again, just a guess. Part of that is relying on the accuracy of the weekly comparisons that they have been putting out and I have seen plenty of inconsistencies in those numbers throughout the season to be suspicious. I guess I will have to wait another month before I see numbers that I can rely on.

1% decrease sounds very stable but keep in mind that they are comparing to a very deflated total in last year's number. Compare it to a few years ago and the number is more than a 15% decrease. The bag limits have stayed the same the last few years but the kill totals have begun to dwindle. The first few years of the liberal bag limit numbers resulted in large increases but the numbers have now dropped to totals in the range of what they were prior to the large bag limits.I believe there will be be a point at which the state trims back the bag limit numbers. When that will happen remains to be seen.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

whitetailwarrior said:


> My personal take on the issue is that there are more unethical hunters out there than we think and sure they might buy a special deer permit and carry it with them which ODNR is making there money on it, but whose to say that they don't fill it out and report there harvest with the new report system. Which leads to more deer harvested and most likely more than one buck for these unethical hunters. I personally hunt a urban deer unit and I just have not seen the number of deer that I have prior to last season when the new check-in system started. My take...bring back the check-in system we had before!!!
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Our new checking system has only been in place for the last couple years (I think). This decline in harvest totals does not coincide with anything pertaining to a new checking system. I contest that there were plenty of people cheating the system in years past. Are you telling me that there are more people who would disregard the rules now than in the past when the hunters of years past had to actually haul the deer in to town to a checking station. I am sure there were plenty of guys who used that as an excuse as to why they did not check their deer in. I am not condoning either scenario. I am simply saying that I think the numbers of violators now versus the past is not nearly as substantial as many people would like to think.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Since there is unique tag number for each deer killed and that tag must stay with the antlers and another tag with the meat explain to me how this is leading to more than one buck being killed anymore than the old system is please.

Old system - illegally kill deer, do not tag, take home. "Unethical hunter" no permanent tag for antlers. No data base of kills per hunter available, all kills records manually record at check stations, no data on hunters or kills per hunter available until someone manually enters kill data from every check station after the season. Other scenario, someone could purchase two either sex tags, tag two bucks, take them to check stations, get the permanent metal tag and never be caught unless someone turned them in. There was no system to check harvest to each hunter. 

New system - illegally kill deer, phone check in as doe, take home, You have no permanent tag for antlers OR MEAT. Data base of all hunters and kills that is accessible from GW laptop in car immediately. Easy for GW to verify any hunters kill or tags in seconds.

Are you saying that the new tagging system has lead to a population reduction in your urban area?


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

The argument that more bucks are harvested as antlerless is not showing up in any of the numbers either. The rate of antlerless deer to total has not spiked in the last couple of years which it would if that claim were true. In the years prior to the liberal limits and the antlerless tags the ratio was 57% in 2003, the farthest back that I found at this time. From 2006 through 2012 the ratio has been between 6%-64%. It is understandable the these numbers would increase a bit with the bag limits increasing and the buck limit remaining at 1. Besides, even if there were guys misreporting bucks for does that would only serve to increase the herd recruitment for the next year in comparison to them taking a doe. They would be taking one deer from the herd as opposed to 2-3 with the doe harvest.


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## whitetailwarrior (May 5, 2012)

I don't know for a fact if it has reduced the population in my area it is just a speculation. The scenario that runs through my head that other hunters may or may not do is, I have this paper tag the ODNR what's me to call it in instead of going to a check-in station, I'm just going to drag it back to my truck if I don't see the GW than I won't report it, if I do get stopped then I just explain to the GW that I forgot to fill it out here it is sir in my wallet. Just a scenario that runs through my head, maybe I'm doing something wrong and that's why I have yet to harvest a deer this year, but I do believe harvesting and just seeing a deer are two different things and I haven't seen but four deer on 10+ outings this year. Not trying to get on anyone's bad side just my opinion on why there's a decrease in the overall population.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

If the guy would use that approach with the GW I would imagine it would still result in a fine, as it should.

I think Lundy brought up some great points as to how the accountability is increased with the new system and the data available to the wildlife officers is much more timely.

And you are not getting on my bad side in any way. We have plenty of these conversations and everyone is free to voice their views. The fact that I am defending the checking system has nothing to do with my personal success rate. I have also not harvested a deer yet this year. Two of my boys took does and I reluctant to take another from our property. I may manage to hunt another property here soon that has a bit stronger population and I will not feel bad taking another doe if that is all that I get an opportunity to shoot.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i hunt a wildlife area here in indiana and they dont allow anterless permits to be used on there property. the thing is not so many years ago i would atleast see some deer on any hunting trip. and it was no big deal to see 15 or 25 deer on a hunting week end. most of them would be to far away for a shot or running across a field. and i usely seen quite a few deer out driving around at lunch. now i see very few deer and the last few yrs we drive all over the property and have seen no deer at all.

and the kill numbers for this property are half what they were just 10 or 12 yrs ago. even the muzzleloader season harvest on this property are at half what they once were. and all the deer taken on this property has to be checked in at the office check station. you have to check in to hunt and check out at the end of your hunt. you get alittle card you carry with you. and you have to mark it if you take a deer. this property has worked this way ever since i started hunting there back in the early 80,s. so something sure has depleated the deer herd on this 11000 acre property. and i think its the coyotes that is lowering the numbers. because we had just as many poachers back then as we do now.

our state just started the call in deer check. so that cant be the reason the deer herd on this property has gotten to the point it has. it use to be after a snow the area i hunt would have tracks all over it. now even after a few days you might find a half dozen tracks in the whole area. i have scouted out other areas where i use to see alot of deer sign and there is just no tracks in the snow. or not like it was 10 or 15 yrs ago.

i have hunted this same property for 30 yrs and have watched the herd go from almost to many deer to spending the whole season and maby see one deer. so you cant tell me poachers is the problem. and i have spent days asking for permission to hunt private property around this wildlife area. and i have almost always been turned down because they just dont allow hunting. so i can not see any other reason for the decline in the deer herd other than coyotes. this is my story and im sticking to it,LOL.
sherman


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## killingtime (Apr 29, 2009)

when you print off you license cant you make copies and when you shoot a deer put a license on it then when you get it home throw it away and you still have another copy of that license to use or go on-line and say you lost your license and pay a couple bucks and get a copy. i personally dont do this but know people who have. there are all kinds of ways of harvesting more deer that dont get counted.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

killingtime said:


> when you print off you license cant you make copies and when you shoot a deer put a license on it then when you get it home throw it away and you still have another copy of that license to use or go on-line and say you lost your license and pay a couple bucks and get a copy. i personally dont do this but know people who have. there are all kinds of ways of harvesting more deer that dont get counted.


If you were to do that and get checked with a deer the DOW would check to see if you had the deer checked in. if you did then fine. But what would you do if you had one checked in and then transported with the same tag number? The DOW could easily nail you on that one when they check and determine that you had shot and checked a deer at another time. I am not saying it is not going to happen but similar could have happened in the past and would have stood more of a chance of going unnoticed.

These violation scenarios that everyone illustrate could perhaps happen at times. Crooks will be crooks but how many can there really be. The decline in the state's harvest totals is in the neighborhood of 50,000 (give or take). I find it impossible to believe that those kinds of numbers are attributed to criminal behavior, better yet, additional criminal behavior beyond that of just a few years ago. Just not believable.


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## viper1 (Apr 13, 2004)

Lundy said:


> What are these numbers telling YOU?


Well its just my opinion. But a 1% difference between last year and this year could go either way before finishing out. But just by that it seems to be leveling out. If it goes higher id say its improving. Even if its only a couple percent low it seems to be improving from the past numbers. 
So right now Im not really concerned, or really have developed a total opinion yet. But it don't stand to reason its dropping drastically. When these things happen it takes a while to go down. I would assume getting better will go slowly too! 
Another thing could be is this is about where ODNR wants it. Maybe to see if the people and insurances slow down on wanting it lower. 
But most of all I just posted because it was the latest reliable source to post.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Back in the 2008-09 deer season results the ODNR announced that they were no longer going to use deer-vehicle accidents as an indicator of the deer herd. They explained in detail but basically it boiled down to the fact that it was not giving them the results they wanted to hear. The accident numbers were continuing to decrease although they felt the herd was growing. I understand that there are various factors that come in to play that could cause changes over time, many of which relate to whether individuals will continue to report deer-vehicle accidents. The interesting thing is that the number from 2011 (from an insurance web-site) is actually down about 25% from the 2002 numbers. I will take the ODNR's word that many factors change and make this number a somewhat unreliable indicator but at the same time that 25% decrease is enough to at least suggest a smaller herd in my view. If anyone cares to look at these numbers in detail for various years you can view them here. 

https://www.ohioinsurance.org/2011-ohio-deer-vehicle-crashes-by-county/

Not to mention that my home county (Knox) has a 55% decrease on accidents. By the way Lundy, Athens county shows a 65% decrease in that same period of time. It would seem that the insurance are getting plenty of what they wanted...reduced claims. It would be interesting to know how much pressure is still being exerted by the insurance companies although we will never know that answer.

Another thing that I find interesting is viewing the deer damage permits and damage kills. The ODNR has always used this as one of their indicators, and still do. Last year's damage permit kills total for the state was down 34% from the numbers in 2007. That is ignoring the spike in 2009 where they were 45% higher than the 2011 numbers. If this is being shown as an indicator what could that be telling them other than there are fewer damage permits needed, fewer issued, fewer deer killed? (Knox county's damage kill total was cut in half) If they are not even issuing as many permits that suggests to me that the farmers are either not asking for as many or the DOW officers are not feeling that they are needing as many. That seems to suggest maybe there are fewer deer. But when you read all the proposal suggestions for next year they still seem to paint the picture as in there is a need to increase the harvest of does.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

> when you print off you license cant you make copies and when you shoot a deer put a license on it then when you get it home throw it away and you still have another copy of that license to use or go on-line and say you lost your license and pay a couple bucks and get a copy. i personally dont do this but know people who have. there are all kinds of ways of harvesting more deer that dont get counted.


This has easily been done since the on-line tags have been available...make or print as many copies of your tag that you want there is nothing stopping you.

Prior to internet tags it was just as easy....fill out tag with info except leave date blank. Take temp tag off deer and place back in wallet....go kill another deer. Rinse, wash & repeat.

Hunters police themselves. There is no system to police the hunting community other than an honor system. Sure, random events happen where a poacher gets caught, but it is rare. Even most poachers brought to justice are done so from TIPS, area hunters, or neighbors. Any one of us could shoot several deer every year and never tag anything if we cut it up ourselves. This was easy to do in the past, easy to do currently, and won't be difficult in the future. I'd like to see ALL convicted poachers get hit hard...not just the trophy buck rules. I think loss of all hunting rights for 5 years nationwide, 10 days in jail and a mandatory $5,000 fine would be a good place to start. Stick it to them hard and make it difficult for them to continue. The bad apples don't seem to learn - the few I know of locally all continue their ways after their court dates......need to make it REALLY painful.


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## viper1 (Apr 13, 2004)

Got to agree! And i have noticed a big increase in capture and convictions. Not usually in the morning paper. But the ODNR post some along with others. I personally have turned in many. Even my own cousin! Talked and talked to him. But to no use. So I turned him in he got prosecuted jailed and fined. Wouldn't speak to me for over two years. But is now. He knew he was wrong and did finally admit it. And now he toes the line.
In my opinion. There is little difference between a poacher and some one who knows and does nothing. If you really believe in something you either help or become part of the problem. 
Now about 1/2 of what i've turned in got prosecuted. But they need to actually catch them which is harder then it seems. 
I dont like turning people in for those who think so. But im not some child that consider squealing a sin either. If we want to improve this country its up to each and every one to watch and police the next. I know I was taught if you do the crime be prepared to serve the time. So I couldnt blame some one for turning me in!


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