# Afganastan and Vietnam..Dejavu. WARNING: No off topic or political posts. Thanks



## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

What a shame! You Afgan-Iraq vets gotta feel the same way we did when we saw VN collapes..We dont have a clue how to fight a war anymore! Please dont make this political..it just hurts


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Hate to see the Afghan war end like this, but it was time to end it. The military fought the war well. It's just the nation building after getting the Taliban out that didn't work out. $1 trillion spent to rebuild Afghanistan and its military just to see them give up when attacked. Time to focus our time and money on fixing our own nation.


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## loves2fishinohio (Apr 14, 2011)

This thread won't last long. But before it is locked, I would just like to add that I was completely and utterly disgusted with the President's speech earlier this week. At the minimum, he should have at least thanked the 1000's that lost their lives, the 10,000s that were wounded, and their families. He did none of that.

I don't disagree it was time to get out of there, but we went about it the totally wrong way, and we completely underestimated how quickly their government would lose control of the country. It's no small wonder why that country has been in a constant state of turmoil for decades. After more than a decade of training, backed by solid weapon technology, the Afgan forces never even mounted a fight of any kind!


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

We are slow learners.


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## fishmeister (Jul 29, 2004)

We should have learned from Russia's experiment in Afghan.


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

In before the lock..........

This was all part of a plan. Now we will take these "immigrants" in and place them in a red state to finish the plan


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Redheads said:


> In before the lock..........
> 
> This was all part of a plan. Now we will take these "immigrants" in and place them in a red state to finish the plan


Yes part of our 2 decade plan was definitely this...

What should we do with all of our promises to translators and guys that helped thousands of American soldiers and put their lives and families lives at risk doing so. Guess they will think twice about helping in the future if they live that long. 
If you're ever bored check out the story of black rifle coffee company and how the special forces guy that started it actually thought so fondly of some of the Afghan commandos he fought with, moved them and their familes all out to work at his company, for the ones who made it to out of Afghanistan at least.

Its a messed up situation over there, not a good solution for anyone, but we definitely needed to get out.


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

burnsj5 said:


> Yes part of our 2 decade plan was definitely this...
> 
> What should we do with all of our promises to translators and guys that helped thousands of American soldiers and put their lives and families lives at risk doing so. Guess they will think twice about helping in the future if they live that long.
> If you're ever bored check out the story of black rifle coffee company and how the special forces guy that started it actually thought so fondly of some of the Afghan commandos he fought with, moved them and their familes all out to work at his company, for the ones who made it to out of Afghanistan at least.
> ...



Never said it was the plan of the decades...just part of the plan....................see above


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Redheads said:


> Never said it was the plan of the decades...just part of the plan....................see above


So what do they do with all the translators and top fighters that worked with US special forces? I don't think there is a good answer because that's too many people to bring to the US in my opinion but they are likely to be killed in the streets and hunted including their families for helping the US. What likely will happen is we will get a small number out and the rest are SOL. We won't hold ground long enough to get them out in any number, or strategically placed in specific states as you believe.


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## bowhunter1487 (Aug 13, 2014)

It's not that we don't know how to fight a war, all 3 were unwinnable objectives to begin with, which I think we've finally learned. The days of cold war puppet governments are over.


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## Dave_E (Apr 6, 2004)

You can give people training, money, and guns but you can't give them the will to fight for themselves. 

We never should have gone in the first place.

I'm glad we got our troops out before even 1 more had to be harmed.


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## fished-out (Dec 20, 2005)

First, I want to thank the men and women who fought there, and the families of the ones who died there. The location of these wars doesn't matter--the "hearts and minds" strategy never works when the resident culture does not share Western values. Our goal was to get Bin Laden and bloody the Taliban noses so that they never again harbored terrorists with designs on our country. We did that, and should have gotten out then. But through multiple presidents, starting with a Republican and continuing with Presidents of both parties, we stayed in an attempt to "convert" the population and government to our way of thinking. That simply doesn't work--we're too different and there are too many competing interests--and it always ends with corrupt politicians in charge in the target country, who are not supported by the armed forces or civilian population. Afghanistan is NOT Vietnam and comparisons between the two are ludicrous. Terrorists harbored by the Taliban attacked us and we went after them, and THEN we engaged in nation building. In Vietnam, we engaged (and failed) in nation building from the start, in fear of a Communist threat that didn't exist--and our armed forces paid the price. In both cases however, we finally left. The armed forces didn't fail--the politicians of BOTH parties failed. The lessons learned by one generation never seem to survive the political machinations of the next generation.


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

Deadeyedeek said:


> What a shame! You Afgan-Iraq vets gotta feel the same way we did when we saw VN collapes..We dont have a clue how to fight a war anymore! Please dont make this political..it just hurts


I understand the hurt. Its hard to watch your country struggle through a crisis.

Kip


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

The current administration is clueless . We have left Americans trapped. All Americans should have been removed before we pulled out. Sickening.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

I saw that the Taliban will allow all US citizens to leave. We ll see. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

no one can ever outright win against guerrilla warfare.

this is why there are power folks against the 2nd amendment as it allows civilians to keep their tools as the founding fathers intended...


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Not a single Afghan should be permitted to flee to this country until every American presently in Afghanistan has returned to US soil.
Perhaps they shouldn’t be permitted to even then.
I was Special Forces in Viet Nam and worked daily with the Kit Carson’s and can assure you that those bastards would turn on you in a heart beat once you got into a fire fight. Not sure the Afghannies weren’t the same.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

As a Marine Vietnam Veteran Im in almost total shock and disbelief after Saigon in75 I never thought I'd have to witness it again I feel for the families that lost loved ones they will never recover from that trauma. as for the politicans that allow american to be stuck there they all need to be held accountable for this its gross negligence and the idiot at the top is suspect number one.


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks veteran's


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## 57BIGhos (Jul 2, 2009)

When you wear the uniform you fight for your buddy beside you. The WIN is coming home alive.

You fight for the love of your Country.

You fight to live another day, so one day you can see your family back home.

You fight a war in a foreign country so you don't have to fight one in your back yard.

When you fight in a war, and bullets are flying, it doesn't matter if your Democrat or Republican. Everyone bleeds RED.

We should all be Humble and Thankful to live in the greatest country in the world, because the men and women before us fought for FREEDOM, so all of us can say and do as we please.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

Well put fishedout..I go to bed at night and pray that we will never get into another one! I thank everyone here for there service, and I hope I am wrong, but I am sure we will fight together again


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## cement569 (Jan 21, 2016)

some day people will realize we are jus mere pawns in the politicans game of chess


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

All the lives lost, all the lives broken, and all the money blown..... We should have listened to this guy when we had the chance. He's looking like a psychic. Money quote, in 2011..... "We should leave by the end of the year. If we don't, we'll be there for another decade."


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## SemperFi (Mar 10, 2014)

Total disgrace for the United States. Being a marine veteran spend two tours in VietNam. All the men we lost and didn't even when the "Dam War"! The count 58,000 in VietNam, roughly 2400 in Irag and same amount in Afghanistan. What would happen if we had Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur and Marshall in charge today. Everyone want to be a politican, so they could get the inside story on the stock market get rich fast and forget the veteran. If they cannot finish a war and win stay the hell out!!!!!!


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## snagless-1 (Oct 26, 2014)

Bug out and leave civilian Americans and people that helped us,all our military gear,and a air field that is the best in the area strategically.God help this country we need it now more than ever.Watch the U.S. government bring over thousands of new democrats to the U.S.A


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

Before it’s locked I’d just like to say we gave them 20 years and with all the lives, help and support they couldn’t last 10 days! 🤦🏻‍♂️ This embarrassment isn’t on the US! ITS ON THEM!


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## Ten Bears (Jan 12, 2012)

Deadeyedeek said:


> What a shame! You Afgan-Iraq vets gotta feel the same way we did when we saw VN collapes..We dont have a clue how to fight a war anymore! Please dont make this political..it just hurts


 The middle east countries have fought each other for thousands of years. Did our government really believe we would make a change? The Russian involvement should have been a warning to us. God bless our troops for their effort!


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

I personally know several US military Afghanistan veterans, marines and Air Force .. work with 2 of them daily.. all of them have issues from their time spent in that **** hole.. We talk and they feel let down by the biden administration.. both agree it’s time to get out as I do Too, however you don’t just abandon 20 years of support in 10 days..


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

Don’t matter if we stayed a few more months or a few more years they’d be in the same situation, again we gave them everything they needed for 20 years! What else could they possibly need to take responsibility?!?!


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## fished-out (Dec 20, 2005)

I'll try this one more time. This is a tragedy designed by BOTH political parties, including Trump and Biden. TRUMP wanted out of Afghanistan (rightfully, in my opinion) and negotiated DIRECTLY with the Taliban (bypassing the Afghan government to do it). The deal Trump signed called for us to be gone by MAY 1ST 2021. Biden AGREED with Trump that we needed to get out--but extended the deadline for total withdrawal until SEPTEMBER to give the armed forces more time to pull the plug. The Taliban had other ideas and as we withdrew from each area in an orderly fashion, they rolled up the Afghan army like a cheap carpet. Now, our armed forces are left holding the bag, trying to extricate Americans and Afghans who helped us, while surrounded by the Taliban, because the Afghan army simply quit. This is not a Democrat failure. It is not a Republican failure. It's our failure--because in the end, we (as a people) elected every one of them from Bush to Biden. And I don't want to hear that you didn't vote for the guy currently in office--because you darn sure voted for one of the guys who came before him, and they're just as guilty.


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## mas5588 (Apr 15, 2012)

fished-out said:


> I'll try this one more time. This is a tragedy designed by BOTH political parties, including Trump and Biden. TRUMP wanted out of Afghanistan (rightfully, in my opinion) and negotiated DIRECTLY with the Taliban (bypassing the Afghan government to do it). The deal Trump signed called for us to be gone by MAY 1ST 2021. Biden AGREED with Trump that we needed to get out--but extended the deadline for total withdrawal until SEPTEMBER to give the armed forces more time to pull the plug. The Taliban had other ideas and as we withdrew from each area in an orderly fashion, they rolled up the Afghan army like a cheap carpet. Now, our armed forces are left holding the bag, trying to extricate Americans and Afghans who helped us, while surrounded by the Taliban, because the Afghan army simply quit. This is not a Democrat failure. It is not a Republican failure. It's our failure--because in the end, we (as a people) elected every one of them from Bush to Biden. And I don't want to hear that you didn't vote for the guy currently in office--because you darn sure voted for one of the guys who came before him, and they're just as guilty.


Holy moly. 5 stars on that post. Anyone who solely blames the current administration or the prior, is doing nothing more than playing partisan politics.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Deadeyedeek said:


> What a shame! You Afgan-Iraq vets gotta feel the same way we did when we saw VN collapes..We dont have a clue how to fight a war anymore! Please dont make this political..it just hurts


There's really no way to respond to this apolitically. But, since the thread hasn't been shut down yet, Maybe I'll save my comments for your particular post for later.



Bucket Mouth said:


> All the lives lost, all the lives broken, and all the money blown..... We should have listened to this guy when we had the chance. He's looking like a psychic. Money quote, in 2011..... "We should leave by the end of the year. If we don't, we'll be there for another decade."


I always thought Ron Paul was a genius, and he told it like it was!




Smitty82 said:


> Before it’s locked I’d just like to say we gave them 20 years and with all the lives, help and support they couldn’t last 10 days! 🤦🏻‍♂️ This embarrassment isn’t on the US! ITS ON THEM!


This is one point on which I agree with both Trump and Biden. We trained and equipped them, gave them 20 years of blood and treasure. That's enough! If the Afghan military is not willing to fight for its own country, why should we do that for them! Let them live in Hell, if that's what the current Taliban rule brings like it did the last time. I know that they have made more tolerant statements lately, but it remains to be seen. Shame on the Afghan military! A bunch of cowards in my estimation!


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

and dont forget the dirtbags in Pakistan who stabbed us in the back and swindeled all the money we gave them! What a debackel getting out, kinda embarassing! well set back and watch this unfold and see all the finger pointing, stay tuned..by they way fished out..you da man!!


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

O k a y....I'm a vet too. This thread is ok. But PLEASE keep political comments out . It's hard but LETS LET IT ROLL


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks for your service Tom, ya trying to not let her get to the no no zone..


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## FOWL BRAWL (Feb 13, 2020)

Thanks, mods for allowing this to continue....

Our government cant keeps its own citizens safe and secure,why would we think they could do any better somewhere else.

The Americans kick ass wherever they go but always seem to fight with one arm tied behind their back.


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## DUCKHEAD (Apr 28, 2007)

Smitty82 said:


> Don’t matter if we stayed a few more months or a few more years they’d be in the same situation, again we gave them everything they needed for 20 years! What else could they possibly need to take responsibility?!?!


They needed a 2nd amendment so the good people of the country could protect themselves.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

Ive read several reports that the blame on the afgan army isn't totally warranted.They lost over 66,000 men killed and many more maimed,we lost 2400,it was mentiones they wern.t paid for many months and much of the equipment that was left was usless.They had no air force oe medevac because all the contractors were pulled out many were said to not have ammunition. We had air support for our last 2 debacles and we couldn,t win them even then. How bout the brave afgan interpetors who risked their entire familys to help us how many of us in us would risk our wives ,children ect to help a country that cuts and runs almost always.Enough of my rant buts its everyones fault there were many heros there lets not forget that!!


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## loves2fishinohio (Apr 14, 2011)

Dave_E said:


> You can give people training, money, and guns but you can't give them the will to fight for themselves.
> 
> We never should have gone in the first place.
> 
> I'm glad we got our troops out before even 1 more had to be harmed.


I agree with your first and third points.

We went in there to begin with to get Bin Laden, and we eventually got him. Ironically, he was in Pakistan when we found him.

Afganistan will always be a country in turmoil. There's nothing we can or should do about it other than to make sure all of our Americans are out of harms way, which is what should have been done before the last troops left the ground.


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## FOWL BRAWL (Feb 13, 2020)

Once these Afghans are on the planes where are they being taken to ?


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## SemperFi (Mar 10, 2014)

If you look back over the years. What has happen to the United States.
1. Schools no pledge allegiance to flag
2. Open borders
3. Third world countys infiltrating United States
4. People have to wake-up 
5. This is America, you come here stand by rules that fathers fought for, if not get the hell out!!!!


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

Near as I can tell this must be what the Afghani's want. 20 years of assistance, billions upon billions spent and still the Taliban has the support to sweep the country up in 11 days? To me, this is a choice the Afghans made. They chose to be ruled by the Taliban rather than fight them. OK, they are a sovereign country they get to do what they want. As long as they dont mess with us again whatever. If they go back to sheltering our enemies we bomb them back into the mountains again. No more help.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

FOWL BRAWL said:


> Once these Afghans are on the planes where are they being taken to ?


Several states here have offered as well as other counties.


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## SemperFi (Mar 10, 2014)

bobk said:


> Several states here have offered as well as other counties.


France and Germany don't want them because of young kids being raped.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

FOWL BRAWL said:


> Once these Afghans are on the planes where are they being taken to ?


They are all coming here...book it...the incompetent idiot is gonna need those votes next time around but hopefully it won't matter.
We're gonna bring them right into the USA so in a few short years they can do an attack on our soil...book that too.


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

tried real hard to not jump in here but.. i have alot of bitter feelings about the stupidity of us trying to police the world, being a disabled vet from that war i have had almost 50 yrs to look back , to jump 3 ft in the air everytime a loud noise happens, to be an old man and slowly watch my fellow vets get sick and die, agent orange, wounds, trauma. and then have my daughter in the army in afgan wtf now she will be as screwed up as me,,,,dam,..... go to a VA and look at the people, there old and hurt, and this is what happens when we police the world.........take care of us first, you cant help anyone if you cant help yourself...rant over to be continued lol


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## FOWL BRAWL (Feb 13, 2020)

bobk said:


> Several states here have offered as well as other counties.


So our boarders are wide open again ?



Shad Rap said:


> They are all coming here...book it...the incompetent idiot is gonna need those votes next time around but hopefully it won't matter.
> We're gonna bring them right into the USA so in a few short years they can do another attack on our soil...book that too.


I wonder if they been vaccinated or tested before they come


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## G-Patt (Sep 3, 2013)

The OP's statement that we don't know how to fight wars any more is absolutely correct. The reason is we send media in there to play Monday morning quarterback and there's a PR campaign being waged against those in power waging the war. I often joke to my wife that if I was the US General running the war, there would be no mercy shown but it would be over very quick. There would be a humanitarian crisis to follow with a lot of innocent casualties, which would play havoc in the media, but again it would be over. Then I would exploit all of their natural resources to pay for the war and install my governors to rule it. It would not be a democracy, and I would have my puppets in power for a while. If there's a glimmer of hope that they can stand on their own 2 feet, the control would slowly transition over at a large cost to them and with the ever-threat of a pounding should the wrong people attempt to gain power. Once the war is paid for with their resources, we'd have to reassess our interests and how we can still retain control should the clown show erupt again. This worked in Japan and Germany. I wouldn't care if people label it "nation building." So be it. My father-in-law is right in a lot of respects. He questioned why anyone would want to fight in a US conflict these days when those in power (politicians) will abdicate control back to a regime with nothing to show for it. They forget about all of the US soldiers and their families who suffered death and all of those who were wounded as if they are completely expendable. For what purpose? What result? When you see what just happened, you can't help but agree with that statement. Afghanistan is not any safer than pre 9/11. It worse now. Now they have new infrastructure, our training facilities and our weaponry. The Taliban are back in business big league.


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## Tree_Beard (Jan 13, 2021)




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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Alexander the great couldn’t conquer afghanistan,


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

To the average Joe over there(Moe?), the concept of a country called "Afghanistan" is as far away from their comprehension as a trip to the moon. They have been a tribal society since the dawn of time. They will be a tribal society a thousand years after the USA ceases to be. Religion, tribe, family is all they know and care to fight about.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

These stupid nation building wars won't end tii the very corrupt politicians that sent the middle and lowerclass to fight in these conflicts send their sons and daughters in harms way.Pull them out of their fancy schools learning CRT and nothing else and you will see how fast it all stops.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

ICENUT said:


> These stupid nation building wars won't end tii the very corrupt politicians that sent the middle and lowerclass to fight in these conflicts send their sons and daughters in harms way.Pull them out of their fancy schools learning CRT and nothing else and you will see how fast it all stops.


Not all of us middle and low life’s were drafted and forced to go to Viet Nam. I enlisted and knew exactly where I was going when doing so. Therefore your theory doesn’t hold water with me.
( not intended to be malicious)


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

You've probably saw the videos of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers that can't even master basic exercise. I don't know squat about twitter or whom ever this page belongs to, but... I've heard this first hand from America's hard chargers. One guy told me "...I have no way to describe how functionally retarded the average Afghan is. We have nothing to compare it with as we judge human intelligence..." They exist in a 7th century mind set. No amount of American money or blood can change that situation. Let the Chinese have their turn at "nation building".

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428295447471341572


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## Ron Y (Dec 2, 2020)

I never understood why we went there in the first place. the Russians were there for 10 years before we went there and got their ass's kicked, so we should have seen the writing on the wall and stayed away.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

chadwimc said:


> You've probably saw the videos of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers that can't even master basic exercise. I don't know squat about twitter or whom ever this page belongs to, but... I've heard this first hand from America's hard chargers. One guy told me "...I have no way to describe how functionally retarded the average Afghan is. We have nothing to compare it with as we judge human intelligence..." They exist in a 7th century mind set. No amount of American money or blood can change that situation. Let the Chinese have their turn at "nation building".
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428295447471341572


Well, if they are as non competent as your clip claims,,how do you explain the longevity of the Taliban and their tenacity of outlasting everyone that has attempted to defeat them?


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

Specwar said:


> Well, if they are as non competent as your clip claims,,how do you explain the longevity of the Taliban and their tenacity of outlasting everyone that has attempted to defeat them?


Outside funding and logistics. Same same as your war, I imagine...


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

The well trained gorilla fighter such as the Taliban, (and the VC in my war as you call it) possess a tenacity that is actually admirable.
By now we as Americans should realize that those individuals and their desire to kill you are traits that should be respected, ( and copied).
Not saying we couldn’t have defeated both had those of us that actually fought them been permitted to use ALL means and tactics at our disposal, sadly however that permission was never granted.
Let this be a lesson of sorts to any enemy whether foreign or domestic, that with all the guns that are owned by us Americans, and hopefully our continued will to remain free, that with everyone’s participation, it certainly would be difficult if not impossible to take away our God given and well fought for freedoms.
Think about it. Do we as Americans possess that desire? I guarantee you I do.


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## SemperFi (Mar 10, 2014)

*Afghanistan has 22 tons of gold in a New York vault. The Taliban can’t touch it.*


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

[/QUOTE]


bobk said:


> The current administration is clueless . We have left Americans trapped. All Americans should have been removed before we pulled out. Sickening.


That would require foresight and accurate assessment of situation ... 45 would have made it more orderly for sure, the next clue current administration gets will be the first ...


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## chumthrower (Mar 15, 2006)

Deadeyedeek said:


> What a shame! You Afgan-Iraq vets gotta feel the same way we did when we saw VN collapes..We dont have a clue how to fight a war anymore! Please dont make this political..it just hurts


Let me get this straight. You withdraw 2500 troops to fulfill a campaign promise and start high fiving. Yet three days later you have to send in 7000 marines and airborne? What am I missing???


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## jessco (Mar 23, 2019)

chumthrower said:


> Let me get this straight. You withdraw 2500 troops to fulfill a campaign promise and start high fiving. Yet three days later you have to send in 7000 marines and airborne? What am I missing???


there is a lot going over my head! I am not going to get me started!


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## DUCKHEAD (Apr 28, 2007)

Specwar said:


> Well, if they are as non competent as your clip claims,,how do you explain the longevity of the Taliban and their tenacity of outlasting everyone that has attempted to defeat them?


Its guerilla war fair. They know they dont have a chance standing straight up against our military. They are spread out, they dont use current technology, they are off the grid, they live there and dont need alot to live off of(unlike US soldiers and civilians). Weapons are simplistic, cost us billions to maintain an army and very little for them. They are fighting for a deep believe as screwed up as it is. They probably always knew to just out last us and they will win. They have now where else to go anyway. They dont care what the media writes. We are held back by people who dont want us to fight the way we need to to win. Its played out thru history. England lost the revolution because they wanted to line and shoot at each other in straight lines. We would not have won if we would have continue to do that. We were guerillas and terrorists at the time to England, and home field advantage.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Personally I'm glad we're out of there. We should have never stayed as long as we did.

We didn't learn our lesson in Nam, no one is going to go in and take over a country if those citizens don't want you there.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

Specwar said:


> Not all of us middle and low life’s were drafted and forced to go to Viet Nam. I enlisted and knew exactly where I was going when doing so. Therefore your theory doesn’t hold water with me.
> ( not intended to be malicious)


To correct you Specwar I enlisted when i was 17 years old the day after high school graduation and spent 2 tours in Vietnam alond the DMZ with the 3rd Marine Division.I also volunteered to go and also knew what I was getting into.I wasn,t talking about us as u called low life middle class folks I was talking about the ruling class special wealthy kids whom never had to deal with the crap.You knoe the imbeciles running the country NOW!


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

3,000 people evacuated yesterday. Only 350 of them were Americans.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

ICENUT said:


> To correct you Specwar I enlisted when i was 17 years old the day after high school graduation and spent 2 tours in Vietnam alond the DMZ with the 3rd Marine Division.I also volunteered to go and also knew what I was getting into.I wasn,t talking about us as u called low life middle class folks I was talking about the ruling class special wealthy kids whom never had to deal with the crap.You knoe the imbeciles running the country NOW!


Likewise here, enlisted at 17, graduated 2 months later at 18. Went to basic, then to BUDS, on to Seal Training, off to Viet Nam for 4 tours in 4 Corp, Uminh Forrest, Mekong Delta.
Still have all my body parts. Mind has been severely challenged a time or two.
What someone else decided to do (deferments) is their business not mine.


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## BFG (Mar 29, 2006)

I have friends and family members who did tours in Afghanistan. Fortunately all came home. All said the same thing in that it makes no sense to be there, as the people who live there don't know why we are there, don't want us there, and don't understand what we are doing when we try to help them. IMO, the Taliban was scared #@#^@#$ of Trump, that's why they negotiated with him on the withdrawal. Biden's team jacked up the project in a big way though. Had Trump still been in office, there is no way in hell the Taliban would have advanced on cities in the manner in which they did over the past two weeks. No matter, they had no fear of Biden and his decision making, because smart folks understand that Biden will just blame Trump for everything and say "we did the best we could..." and tomorrow his followers will be re-focused on the next statue that they want to take down. 

The Afghani people are incapable of governing themselves. The Taliban will provide order (albeit horrible) and in all reality, life for them won't change all that much. The reason the US got involved over there was very simple: The Taliban was lead by Bin Laden, and he was based there, and there were training camps there. We should have NEVER set up camp for the long term. Americans are incapable of understanding the Middle Eastern way of life. Politicians only do what they think will get them more votes, and in September of 2001, Bush let hell rain on Afghanistan and Americans thought it was the right thing to do. 20 years later, the country is no better, we've wasted a trillion dollars, and lost a lot of American lives. For what? I can't rightly answer that question. The whole thing seems utterly and totally pointless. What's worse is that Americans were placed in harms way for no good reason. 

Thank you to all who have served. I pray for our great Country.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

BFG said:


> I have friends and family members who did tours in Afghanistan. Fortunately all came home. All said the same thing in that it makes no sense to be there, as the people who live there don't know why we are there, don't want us there, and don't understand what we are doing when we try to help them. IMO, the Taliban was scared #@#^@#$ of Trump, that's why they negotiated with him on the withdrawal. Biden's team jacked up the project in a big way though. Had Trump still been in office, there is no way in hell the Taliban would have advanced on cities in the manner in which they did over the past two weeks. No matter, they had no fear of Biden and his decision making, because smart folks understand that Biden will just blame Trump for everything and say "we did the best we could..." and tomorrow his followers will be re-focused on the next statue that they want to take down.
> 
> The Afghani people are incapable of governing themselves. The Taliban will provide order (albeit horrible) and in all reality, life for them won't change all that much. The reason the US got involved over there was very simple: The Taliban was lead by Bin Laden, and he was based there, and there were training camps there. We should have NEVER set up camp for the long term. Americans are incapable of understanding the Middle Eastern way of life. Politicians only do what they think will get them more votes, and in September of 2001, Bush let hell rain on Afghanistan and Americans thought it was the right thing to do. 20 years later, the country is no better, we've wasted a trillion dollars, and lost a lot of American lives. For what? I can't rightly answer that question. The whole thing seems utterly and totally pointless. What's worse is that Americans were placed in harms way for no good reason.
> 
> Thank you to all who have served. I pray for our great Country.


Unfortunately nothing can be great without great leadership


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

This whole debacle is getting worse every day,after watching Old Joe and his minions blabber at what they did or did not know you gotta wonder about the leadership of this country. There making a mockery of this country their even saying maybe they won't even be able to get americans out REALLY Cut and Run just like Bengazi. England and France are out in countryside picking up their citizens But not the US.These people need replaced and fast before this country goes down the drain what a embarrasment these clowns are!!!!!!!


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

As far as I've heard no US citizens have been killed and the evaluation is progressing. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

evacuation

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

ress said:


> As far as I've heard no US citizens have been killed and the evaluation is progressing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


I've heard they are killing interpreters and people who've been helping Americans...going around looking for these people specifically...and hanging them...all depends on what you read I guess...


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Very interesting assessment.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Specwar said:


> Unfortunately nothing can be great without great leadership


And the leadership decided it’s a good time for a vacation. Something is very wrong here.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

BFG said:


> IMO, the Taliban was scared #@#^@#$ of Trump, that's why they negotiated with him on the withdrawal. Biden's team jacked up the project in a big way though. Had Trump still been in office, there is no way in hell the Taliban would have advanced on cities in the manner in which they did over the past two weeks


It didn't matter in Nam who was president & it doesn't matter who's president when we leave Afghanistan.
It's a war you can't win and the Taliban is simply going to wait for a withdrawal before taking over. The results will be exactly the same.
The best thing we did for the Vietnamese people was leave.


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## Junebug2320 (Apr 23, 2010)

bobk said:


> Several states here have offered as well as other counties.


Which ones. Proof??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Junebug2320 said:


> Which ones. Proof??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you not capable of doing any research? Look it up. Damn, everyone needs a link nowadays.


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## sliprig (Apr 6, 2004)

Saw a interview with Rob ONeill. The British, French and German SF teams are out picking up their people. "America's leadership has no stones". Give me a 8 man team and just start stacking them up.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

Soooo. I'm worried about all the men and wemons who helped us with a promise that we would save them and their families. How can we ever be trusted again


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## chumthrower (Mar 15, 2006)

Specwar said:


> Likewise here, enlisted at 17, graduated 2 months later at 18. Went to basic, then to BUDS, on to Seal Training, off to Viet Nam for 4 tours in 4 Corp, Uminh Forrest, Mekong Delta.
> Still have all my body parts. Mind has been severely challenged a time or two.
> What someone else decided to do (deferments) is their business not mine.


Icenut and Specwar, it would be my honor and privilege to buy you guys a beer someday. Come ice fishing with me.


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## jessco (Mar 23, 2019)

ICENUT said:


> This whole debacle is getting worse every day,after watching Old Joe and his minions blabber at what they did or did not know you gotta wonder about the leadership of this country. There making a mockery of this country their even saying maybe they won't even be able to get americans out REALLY Cut and Run just like Bengazi. England and France are out in countryside picking up their citizens But not the US.These people need replaced and fast before this country goes down the drain what a embarrasment these clowns are!!!!!!!


I called both my senators, stated these people in office need to be gone! (not that it did any good).


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

Just read today that commander of 82nd airborne division has told the British SAS commander to stop the rescue of people outside of gates because its making the US look BAD Are you kidding me.How much worse can we look bad when we won;t even attempt to rescue or own citizens in harms way.My God this administartion needs to go ASAP


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

chumthrower said:


> Icenut and Specwar, it would be my honor and privilege to buy you guys a beer someday. Come ice fishing with me.


Thank you for your kindness. I will tip my next cold one to you.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

I second chumthrowers kindness and its entirely possible we could ice fish together.My handle is icenut and i live to ice fish.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

You know it's been reported that the Taliban has taken 30 or 40 jets that we left behind. Given our capabilities, how is this happening? You mean we couldn't send in a drone strike to take those planes out before the enemy flew them into other countries? Something doesn't smell right about this whole affair. I think just blaming the current admin is the easy way out. There's much more going on here. I wonder how many small arms and ammunition we left behind? What about armored vehicles? 

I mean, if the lives of American citizens, and those people originally promised asylum, a few dozen jets, and countless small arms/ammo and armored vehicles falling into the hands of our enemies doesn't matter to the Pentagon, what does?


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

The buck stops with me is the direct quote. So yes, the current administration is absolutely to blame.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

bobk said:


> The buck stops with me is the direct quote. So yes, the current administration is absolutely to blame.


The thing is, the people in the Pentagon and all the 3 letter agencies are the same people who were in it throughout the last administration, and largely the one before that. We can elect or impeach the figurehead, but not the beareucrats. They will still be there mucking up foriegn policy like nothing changed.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Which proves without a doubt: _ things don’t change, people change. _Until that happens everything remains the same, unfortunately.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Member of huge military family serving in all branches at many levels….any time spent in the Middle East is “pouring water down a well”. Enough said


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

crappiedude said:


> It didn't matter in Nam who was president & it doesn't matter who's president when we leave Afghanistan.
> It's a war you can't win and the Taliban is simply going to wait for a withdrawal before taking over. The results will be exactly the same.
> The best thing we did for the Vietnamese people was leave.





crappiedude said:


> It didn't matter in Nam who was president & it doesn't matter who's president when we leave Afghanistan.
> It's a war you can't win and the Taliban is simply going to wait for a withdrawal before taking over. The results will be exactly the same.
> The best thing we did for the Vietnamese people was leave.



I don't think the problem is IF we should have left, it's HOW the hell we left.....


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Specwar said:


> Thank you for your kindness. I will tip my next cold one to you.



I'm not goin to be kind, I'm gonna let you buy me a beer Spec.... ....Gonna send you a PM....


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

Hatchetman said:


> I don't think the problem is IF we should have left, it's HOW the hell we left.....


After 20 years of help and guidance does it really matter how we left? After that much time some may argue we should have been able to leave whenever however… it’s not like our top brass hasn’t had our exit strategy planned for a while now…


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## garhtr (Jan 12, 2009)

Smitty82 said:


> does it really matter how we left?


 We were there for 20 yrs could we have stayed 2 more months until all civilians were removed and most of the high tech equipment was at the least disabled ?
I'm only guessing but I'd assume there were several exit strategies on the table and "politicians" choose the worst one available.
Sure looks like a giant cluster on our part regardless of who we point the finger at.


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

garhtr said:


> We were there for 20 yrs could we have stayed 2 more months until all civilians were removed and most of the high tech equipment was at the least disabled ?
> I'm only guessing but I'd assume there were several exit strategies on the table and "politicians" choose the worst one available.
> Sure looks like a giant cluster on our part regardless of who we point the finger at.


Coulda stayed 2 more months or 2 more years but I’d be skeptical that the situation would be any different than what it is now… they put up almost no resistance and with all the support they’ve been given I’d expect a lot more on their part…


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Hatchetman said:


> I don't think the problem is IF we should have left, it's HOW the hell we left.....


Doesn't matter, the results would be the same. Perfect plans only work out in your mind and on paper. Reality comes along and throws a curve ball you never saw coming.


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## sliprig (Apr 6, 2004)

They left the equipment for the Afgan army to fight the Taliban. Intel has known for months the Taliban has been targeting the Afgan pilots for quite a while now. Now they will use what they can against us and sell the rest to the highest bidder. Once our people are out we need to go back in with the bombers and destroy any equipment that is still left.
Slip


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

*


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

I understand at some point they had to end the mission/objective that we originally went there for. What I've thought for awhile is that area including Iraq, Pakistan were prime areas to set up long term bases. No different than West Germany, Japan, Korea. We went there to bring stability to areas that at one time were anything but stable. I get that the US can't do it alone and should get help from allies. And there's probably bases around the globe that aren't needed like they once were. I just know that part of the world has/is always been an issue and ignoring it doesn't work. 

Kip


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## loweman165 (May 15, 2015)

I feel very strongly that Russia and China played a huge part in organizing the takeover. They've probably have been assisting our defeat for years. It sure would the first time. Take a look at the roll They played in Korea and Vietnam. What's in it for them? All of Afghanistans minerals. And not just oil but precious metals as well. Thats what all the wars in Afghanistan seem to be about anyway right? Now they get it all and we get NOTHING. Chinese and Russian diplomats are said to be meeting with the Talibon this week to recognize them as the new government. Tells me all I need to know.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

OH..dont forget all the Opium and heroin that the Taliban control that will end up here! Icenut, I bet you seen me before, was a Dustoff Pilot that picked alot of you guys up, even on the other side of the river in no-no land 68-69-70


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

Another way to consider this….


We were fighting radical Islam at THEIR doorstep with essentially a stalemate last few years….their not attacking us, we’re (US led NATO troops) not advancing, but maintaining our bases… now that we left, what are the odds radical Islam will rise again and we have terror attacks ala 9/11….


What if we would have pulled ALL troops out of Europe 20 years after WW2 (late 60’s…)? 
Would the Soviets have expanded from Eastern Europe? Would the Soviets have presented an even greater threat to peace if their footprint was expanded? 

Advancing troops vs maintaining what you earned is 2 different things. We earned every base that was ever built. The might of the US military to be able to maintain their bases and run strategic missions should never be underestimated. I’m not saying to continue to prop up BS government’s, etc….but getting in / out of bases and keeping a presence is a HUGE deterrent while providing huge intelligence capabilities…..keeps things in check….again , no service deaths for last 18 mos prior….

Just as we couldn’t have kept tabs on the Soviets from our bases in Europe (and still do today…) that will now be the challenge for keeping tabs on radical Islam …

Peace thru strength has served the fight for freedom very well


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Smitty82 said:


> After 20 years of help and guidance does it really matter how we left? After that much time some may argue we should have been able to leave whenever however… it’s not like our top brass hasn’t had our exit strategy planned for a while now…



Are you really serious with that first sentence?? Amazing.....


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

bad luck said:


> Another way to consider this….
> 
> 
> We were fighting radical Islam at THEIR doorstep with essentially a stalemate last few years….their not attacking us, we’re (US led NATO troops) not advancing, but maintaining our bases… now that we left, what are the odds radical Islam will rise again and we have terror attacks ala 9/11….
> ...


Bad Luck if we would have a secure borders I mean secure ones the odds od another 911 attack would be slim.The 911 saudi attackers were known to intelligence and they walked right in even applied to flight schools. With the open borders we have now you can bet it won't be long.We have to be the only country on earth that anyone can just walk right in don't ya think


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

crappiedude said:


> Doesn't matter, the results would be the same. Perfect plans only work out in your mind and on paper. Reality comes along and throws a curve ball you never saw coming.



Almost unbelievable....


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

Hatchetman said:


> Are you really serious with that first sentence?? Amazing.....


How would you have left that would have stopped the Taliban from taking over? Because it seems to me if the ANA got rolled over in 10 days that we would have to stay there for a significant more amount of time. Wasting even more of our tax payer money, and more US lives. I feel bad for those people, it’s heartbreaking, but things aren’t going to change for them if they don’t fight for it.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Smitty82 said:


> How would you have left that would have stopped the Taliban from taking over? Because it seems to me if the ANA got rolled over in 10 days that we would have to stay there for a significant more amount of time. Wasting even more of our tax payer money, and more US lives. I feel bad for those people, it’s heartbreaking, but things aren’t going to change for them if they don’t fight for it.


I don't think it's about the Taliban taking over, it's about getting all your people out first or at least try to...then they can do whatever the hell they wanna do...it was poorly planned no matter what way you look at it...you left Americans and people who helped Americans trapped...there could've been a plan devised to get those folks out of there first...then like I said, let it fall...there was no exfiltration plan...


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

I see. My comments were directly associated with the Taliban taking over. I can see how saying we should be able to leave whenever However were taken out of context. Getting our people out first should have been top priority and should definitely have been planned better.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I Fish said:


> The thing is, the people in the Pentagon and all the 3 letter agencies are the same people who were in it throughout the last administration, and largely the one before that. We can elect or impeach the figurehead, but not the beareucrats. They will still be there mucking up foriegn policy like nothing changed.


From what I read the higher ups did warn the man that they had big concerns with his exit plan. Guess they were correct.


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## loweman165 (May 15, 2015)

bobk said:


> From what I read the higher ups did warn the man that they had big concerns with his exit plan. Guess they were correct.


And ignored.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

loweman165 said:


> And ignored.


Yep, that’s the absolutely shameful part of this whole mess.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

SO FAR SO GOOD. KEEP IT CIVIL . I FEEL AS A VET THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. TOM


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Saugeye Tom said:


> SO FAR SO GOOD. KEEP IT CIVIL . I FEEL AS A VET THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. TOM


And we thank you sir👍


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## BeerBatter (Aug 1, 2006)

I’m not sure but I think we still have a lot of troops in many places
Germany
Japan
South Korea
Vietnam
Should have kept some troops in Afghanistan too in my opinion
Fought to hard too many lives, so many maimed, to much blood tears sweat and money put in to just walk away completely and let them overrun everything gained
Thank you to everyone who has served USA


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

BeerBatter said:


> I’m not sure but I think we still have a lot of troops in many places
> Germany
> Japan
> South Korea
> ...




Yeah, you could say that.......


*Military Bases Overseas*


Afghanistan
Bagram Air Base
Camp Dwyer
Camp Leatherneck
FOB Delaram
Kandahar Int. Airport
Shindand Airbase

Bahrain
NRCC Bahrain
NSA Bahrain

Belgium
USAG Benelux
USAG Brussels

Bulgaria
Aitos Logistics Center
Bezmer Air Base
Graf Ignatievo Air Base
Novo Selo Range

Cuba
Guantanamo Bay

Djibouti
Camp Lemonnier

Germany
Campbell Barracks
Landstuhl Medical Center
NATO Base Geilenkirchen
Panzer Kaserne
Patrick Henry Village
Ramstein AB
Spangdahlem Air Base
USAG Ansbach
USAG Bamberg
USAG Baumholder
USAG Darmstadt
USAG Garmisch
USAG Grafenwoehr
USAG Heidelberg
USAG Hessen
USAG Hohenfels
USAG Kaiserslautern
USAG Mannheim
USAG Schweinfurt
USAG Stuttgart
USAG Wiesbaden

Greece
NSA Souda Bay

Greenland
Thule Air Base

Guam
Andersen AFB
Naval Base Guam
Naval Forces Marianas

Iraq
Camp Baharia
Camp Banzai
Camp Bucca
Camp Fallujah
Camp Taji
Camp Victory
COP Shocker
FOB Abu Ghraib
FOB Grizzly
FOB Sykes
Joint Base Balad
Victory Base Complex

Italy
Aviano AB
Camp Darby
Caserma Ederle
NAS Sigonella
NSA Gaeta
NSA La Maddalena
NSA Naples

Japan
Camp Courtney
Camp Foster
Camp Fuji
Camp Gonsalves
Camp Hansen
Camp Kinser
Camp Lester
Camp McTureous
Camp S.D. Butler
Camp Schwab
Camp Zama
Fleet Activities Okinawa
Fleet Activities Sasebo
Fleet Activities Yokosuka
Fort Buckner
Kadena Air Base
MCAS Futenma
MCAS Iwakuni
Misawa Air Base
Naval Air Facility Atsugi
Torii Station
Yokota Air Base
Yontan Airfield

Kosovo
Camp Bondsteel

Kuwait
Ali Al Salem Airbase
Camp Arifjan
Camp Buehring
Camp Doha
Camp New York
Camp Patriot
Camp Spearhead
Camp Virginia

Kyrgyzstan
Transit Center at Manas

Netherlands
Joint Force Command
USAG Schinnen

Peru
Naval Medical Research Unit Six

Portugal
Lajes Field

Puerto Rico
Fort Buchanan

Qatar
Al Udeid Air Base

Saudi Arabia
Eskan Village Air Base
King Abdul Aziz Air Base
King Fahd Air Base
King Khalid Air Base
Riyadh Air Base

Singapore
COMLOG WESTPAC

South Korea
Camp Carroll
Camp Casey
Camp Castle
Camp Eagle
Camp Hovey
Camp Humphreys
Camp Market
Camp Red Cloud
Camp Stanley
Fleet Activities Chinhae
K-16 Air Base
Kunsan Air Base
Osan Air Base
USAG Daegu
USAG Yongsan

Spain
Morón Air Base
Naval Station Rota

Turkey
Incirlik Air Base
Izmir Air Base

United Kingdom
RAF Alconbury
RAF Croughton
RAF Fairford
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Menwith Hill
RAF Mildenhall


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## 1basshunter (Mar 27, 2011)

I I’m an old Army Ranger fought hard for 10 years of my life!!!!! I never asked what my country could do for me. It’s was more like what can I do for it!!!!!!!! And this is the BIGGEST Military ABORTION in the world as far as I’m concern. It’s sad to see and hear that the world we have become the laughing stock of the world……. And now we have all but lost are credibility with other world leaders😖 PS this is just my opinion and my not be yours but that’s ok that was why I did what I did to give people an opinion.


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## BeerBatter (Aug 1, 2006)

Wow
Thank you 
Bad luck
And that is a short list when you look at a globe.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Hatchetman said:


> Are you really serious with that first sentence?? Amazing.....





Smitty82 said:


> How would you have left that would have stopped the Taliban from taking over? Because it seems to me if the ANA got rolled over in 10 days that we would have to stay there for a significant more amount of time. Wasting even more of our tax payer money, and more US lives. I feel bad for those people, it’s heartbreaking, but things aren’t going to change for them if they don’t fight for it.


That is NOT what we are talking about!



Smitty82 said:


> I see. My comments were directly associated with the Taliban taking over. I can see how saying we should be able to leave whenever However were taken out of context. Getting our people out first should have been top priority and should definitely have been planned better.


Now you seem to be getting it. But the portion I highlighted was just how you stated! What else could we expect? Of course1 So, let's get organized get our people and our allies out first, then our ordnance, so it doesn't fall into the hands of the Taliban, And then get the troops out! That was the strategy laid out previously, and ignored presently!


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

Whats also sad is all the advances to kids and women made in going to school, driving,etc and now that will change. Heck there own husbands were in in the Afg Security forces and dropped there arms and split! Dont see the women picking up arms and fighting back. And trere own Prez split with suitcases of money to the UAE, they need to find that joker and bring him back to face the music! We tell the press every move we made??? Wow what a debackle...


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Did ANYONE expect those currently in power to do anything else??? Someone had a plan, someone else wouldn’t follow it because , well you all know why.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

Guys thanks for being professional and not political, this is interesting, and Super Tom is being patient!


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Please read the second paragraph : The Taliban is currently screening evacuees on behalf of the United States !!!
Am I the only one that sees an issue with this? Who made a deal with the Taliban to authorize who can come to the United States? Just how many chosen terrorists you think they may add to the list? Unbelievable🤭🤭


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)




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## loweman165 (May 15, 2015)

Specwar said:


> Please read the second paragraph : The Taliban is currently screening evacuees on behalf of the United States !!!
> Am I the only one that sees an issue with this? Who made a deal with the Taliban to authorize who can come to the United States? Just how many chosen terrorists you think they may add to the list? Unbelievable🤭🤭


Yeah we sure do trust the hell out of them now don't we? Good old #46 in last weeks press address must have told us about promises made by the Taliban to the US and himself a dozen times. AND HE BOUGHT IT!!!!


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

In his words Here's the deal and cmon man!!!!!


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## FOWL BRAWL (Feb 13, 2020)

I was reading that "a few " evacuees have started to test positive here on US soil


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## Dave_E (Apr 6, 2004)

This poorly planned withdraw is sad. It's also a waste of lives that troops weren't pulled out by the last 2 administrations, but they were busy doing nothing or saluting North Korean generals.


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## FSHNERIE (Mar 5, 2005)

Dave_E said:


> This poorly planned withdraw is sad. It's also a waste of lives that troops weren't pulled out by the last 2 administrations, but they were busy doing nothing or saluting North Korean generals.


Well...

I refuse to Comment on this .I've watched the fall of Saigon, and our Troops coming home in body bags.

Father......Bay of Pigs
Grandpa....ww2
Uncle ....... korea
Uncle ........Nam

It's just sad. 

However, I've seen no one saluting the North Koreans.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

bdawg said:


> Hate to see the Afghan war end like this, but it was time to end it. The military fought the war well. It's just the nation building after getting the Taliban out that didn't work out. $1 trillion spent to rebuild Afghanistan and its military just to see them give up when attacked. Time to focus our time and money on fixing our own nation.


Just to see its military give up, when attacked. does the remind you of any one. I, do not mind helping out. You better get it together in short order. Then we will go. Pouring money into some country has to stop. just remember, the govenrment has no money. It all belongs to the tax payers.


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## bass&assassassin (Mar 13, 2019)

If people think the current Afghan people didn’t like their little taste of democracy just look at the protesters and all of the women and young females working, driving, going to school, etc. They are the brave ones, their men, not so much.


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## CoonDawg92 (Jun 1, 2016)

bass&assassassin said:


> If people think the current Afghan people didn’t like their little taste of democracy just look at the protesters and all of the women and young females working, driving, going to school, etc. They are the brave ones, their men, not so much.


This! My wife has been calling this out. If that country ever sees change it will be brought about by the women. The men’s life won’t be terribly different either way.


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## bass&assassassin (Mar 13, 2019)

CoonDawg92 said:


> This! My wife has been calling this out. If that country ever sees change it will be brought about by the women. The men’s life won’t be terribly different either way.


I know, Our military should have been training the women. They have the most at stake, the men could care less.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

loves2fishinohio said:


> Given the state of everything going on lately, and the strong opinions of the members here, it _might_ just be time to open a political free talk forum. Enter at your own risk kinda thing. I realize this site is family-friendly, but as long as the proper language is used and members don't abuse members verbally, it might just work. Just my opinion.


NO SIR


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Thread has been cleaned up of off topic posts.
Let's PLEASE keep it on topic...again...without politics. Thanks!


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

Saugeyefisher said:


> Lol this entire post is political. Just no way around it...


I get what you're saying and it is easy to slip into the political side of this. Guys just have to have the control to keep it to the topic of the similarities between the pull-outs in Afghanistan and Vietnam in relation to how it made veterans feel. 

Kip


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Saugeyefisher said:


> Lol this entire post is political. *Just no way around it...*


Could be...and trust me when I tell ya...I've been livid about the way the evacuation thus far has been carried out and have steered clear of this thread as far as posting my personal views.
But there are many posts on this thread showing it doesn't have to be all political.
Many here served during the Vietnam era and are now watching history repeat itself. Discussing their feelings towards the chain of evac. events between both Vietnam/Afghanistan is something they've surely earned the right to do. Those that have served in Afghanistan most likely don't remember much about the Vietnam evac. but have earned every right to voice their feelings/thoughts on how this evacuation was carried out. 
One thing for sure...would bet that everyone that has served...especially those that saw combat would agree that we needed to get out of Afghanistan. 
Elephant in the room is...how it was carried out!

Thread was/will be left open out of respect to those that have actually served and have strong feelings towards how evacuation operations were done after risking their lives in both Vietnam as well as Afghanistan.
The 'waters' in this thread won't get muddied with getting into off topic subjects such as who Pres. Trump shook hands with in 2019 or what Pres. Nixon had for dinner two years prior to the fall of Saigon when Pres. Ford was Commander and Chief.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Dave_E said:


> This poorly planned withdraw is sad. It's also a waste of lives that troops weren't pulled out by the last 2 administrations, but they were busy doing nothing or saluting North Korean generals.


Well that statement is wrong but never miss a chance to show your hate. Do some research.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Just want to add that instead of closing this thread...off topic posts will be dealt with on a case by case bases.
Please Note the Thread title change and please consider this the final warning as to off topic post.
Vacations to further off topic posts to follow. Thanks!


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

As a veteran Im still sorting through the emotions of this fubar. I cant even imagine you guys that seen combat and layed it all on the line. I know the hurt I feel is probably nothing compared to how it's affecting you guys. I say a prayer for our nation everyday. 
BTW. Pic posted to get rid of that silly handshake photo on thread preview.









Kip


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Are we permitted to say that the “ root cause” of the current issue is totally political?


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

A non secular muslim country will never compete in the world today. They subjugate half of their human assets, us employing women in real work is why we have such an advantage over them. Can you imagine the torment you would feel as an intelligent woman in these societies? It is very sad.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

Im sorry if a couple of my posts violated the TOS rules dont hold it against me my emotions get the best of me during this crisis.Its really bothering me after a good part of my life wasted didn;t think it would but it has I just feel for the younger vets to see this happening after what they been thru its getting to me after 53 years.I will follow the TOS and again Im sorry!


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Specwar said:


> Are we permitted to say that the “ root cause” of the current issue is totally political?


Why would you say that?..it's one persons decision...we're debating that decision and expressing opinions on that decision...you're talking about the exfiltration of Afghanistan right?..maybe you're not...


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

I feel ya Icenut, just brings up emotions that we tried to forget. Now the younger vets know how we feel and we feel there pain also. Following events closly, dont think this is gonna end well!


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

All media has been ordered out of Afghanistan. Does not sound good.


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## Mattiba (Apr 7, 2020)

This is a great thread! I have many thoughts and opinions about this terrible evacuation. It’s good to see that others share my thoughts and frustration too. I never served but I have the most respect for those that do and did. In school we never learned much about Vietnam, I graduated in 1991, but I’ve educated myself through documentaries and I can’t imagine what you brave soldiers dealt with fighting on the front lines of any war. Thanks to all the vets who’ve served in war and peace! 
Thanks for keeping this thread going, God bless or troops our allies and our Great country.


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## FOWL BRAWL (Feb 13, 2020)

According to the "news" close to 60 Afghans landed in Cleveland and were let go............boy that happened fast


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

_A GREAT POST WORTH REPEATING_



Mattiba said:


> This is a great thread! I have many thoughts and opinions about this terrible evacuation. It’s good to see that others share my thoughts and frustration too. I never served but I have the most respect for those that do and did. In school we never learned much about Vietnam, I graduated in 1991, but I’ve educated myself through documentaries and I can’t imagine what you brave soldiers dealt with fighting on the front lines of any war. Thanks to all the vets who’ve served in war and peace!
> Thanks for keeping this thread going, God bless or troops our allies and our Great country.


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

Kabul airport attack kills 60 Afghans, 13 US troops


KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Two suicide bombers and gunmen attacked crowds of Afghans flocking to Kabul's airport Thursday, transforming a scene of desperation into one of horror in the waning days of an airlift for those fleeing the Taliban takeover.




apnews.com


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

Alot of death if we believe the news ...just now


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Saugeye Tom said:


> Alot of death if we believe the news ...just now


You can bet with Central Command censoring all news(which is normal procedure) that's allowed out of Afghanistan that we are only getting what they want us to know...which is no where near the full story and very much likely the total American casualty numbers won't be made public until the Pentagon has no choice but to release those figures. 
Almost guaranteed to never get the exact number of Afghan allies or civilians killed.

I know I'm preaching to the choir but the chain of insane events that's happened since the onset of this...for lack of better wording... 'evacuation' set up the perfect scenario for these American deaths to happen.

As a U.S. citizen watching this heartbreaking 'criminal' debacle unfold...just really at a loss for words right now as to how those in charge of this evacuation could desert so many Americans and allies leaving them to the mercy of a 20yr enemy that's proven time and time again that they couldn't be trusted regardless of whatever behind the scene 'deals' that's been made with them.
With an estimated 1500 Americans still in Afghanistan(reported from Pentagon yesterday)...I'm afraid this won't be the last batch of American casualties we'll hear about.

Many prayers out for those Americans still in harms way...


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## BuckeyeSixFive (Jul 29, 2016)

Well said


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Us ambassador in Kabul has said 4 soldiers have been killed in the bombing. Bless their families.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

What happens when everything you do and everything you say is scripted by the ones that got us into this BS. Period.


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## QPCloudy (Apr 24, 2020)

Videos surfacing on reddit in the /r/Afghanistan sub showing many many dead. WELL over the 13 or 25 they are reporting. My in-laws are missionaries and were there for years. Luckily they got out a month and a half ago, but many more are still there as well as locals who were friendly with them and also believers. This is especially close and difficult for us now. My sister in law and her husband were in touch with some of them up until last night. No updates from them yet today


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

My theory, whether you like it or not.
If your American born and still there we should do everything possible to get you out. If your Afghanistan born, came to the US and gained citizenship and returned to Afghanistan, find your own way out. History should explain my reasoning.


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## ICENUT (Apr 29, 2008)

Ive been around now 72 years and seen alot but this is the very first time I'm ashamed to be an American,Im ashamed of our so called leaders and the people that put them in office.I once put my life on the line for this country but ive lost total respect for it now.


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Just heard 13 us serviceman dead. Many more wounded. And still counting. Not good.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Specwar said:


> My theory, whether you like it or not.
> If your American born and still there we should do everything possible to get you out. If your Afghanistan born, came to the US and gained citizenship and returned to Afghanistan, find your own way out. History should explain my reasoning.


Sadly...the insane decisions/steps that's been made from the onset of this evacuation...do to those steps...agree that we are in a position now to get all Americans out of there first.
It just didn't have to go down this way...



ICENUT said:


> Ive been around now 72 years and seen alot but this is the very first time I'm ashamed to be an American,Im ashamed of our so called leaders and the people that put them in office.I once put my life on the line for this country but ive lost total respect for it now.


The flip side of that coin is I'm ashamed of the ones that made the decisions in this evacuation but...regardless of their horrific decisions...
*...I will never let them make me be ashamed to be an American.
They don't get to have the privilege of having that choice over me!!!*


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## fishless (Sep 18, 2014)

fastwater said:


> Sadly...the insane decisions/steps that's been made from the onset of this evacuation...do to those steps...agree that we are in a position now to get all Americans out of there first.
> It just didn't have to go down this way...
> 
> 
> ...


We have the military might to punish those responsible . Time to stand up to the Taliban and ISIS and show them that these things will not happen without major repurcusions ! Just my opinon


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Another 12 US lives lost today in Afghanistan. Set snipers on the walls surrounding the airfield and start picking off the Taliban. 
Last plane out this week, then bring in the B52’s from Diego Garcia and crystallize that entire excuse for a country.


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## fishless (Sep 18, 2014)

Specwar said:


> Another 12 US lives lost today in Afghanistan. Set snipers on the walls surrounding the airfield and start picking off the Taliban.
> Last plane out this week, then bring in the B52’s from Diego Garcia and crystallize that entire excuse for a country.


My thoughts exactly


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

fishless said:


> We have the military might to punish those responsible . Time to stand up to the Taliban and ISIS and show them that these things will not happen without major repurcusions ! Just my opinon


We had the military might over there to fend off the Taliban prior to the onset of this cluster of an evacuation starting. And that 'might' should have stayed there keeping the Taliban up in the mountains where they were until all Americans were out.
Plain and simple... the powers to be made the decision to desert Americans, many of which are soldiers without enough 'might' to defend themselves.
Dead is dead and regardless what we do now the current...or future lost lives won't be brought back.



Specwar said:


> Another 12 US lives lost today in Afghanistan. Set snipers on the walls surrounding the airfield and start picking off the Taliban.
> Last plane out this week, then bring in the B52’s from Diego Garcia and crystallize that entire excuse for a country.





fishless said:


> My thoughts exactly


Sure don't look for that to happen.
Sadly...if I'm not mistaken...the U.S. is now back to letting the U.N. dictate to us what we should do in response militarily when it comes to attacks on our people.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Don’t be shocked when the b_______ shoot down one or more of the evacuation aircraft.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Yep...and prolly use one of our own abandoned pieces of artillery to do so.


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## BeerBatter (Aug 1, 2006)

I still have lots of faith in the men women and children of America 
I am one of many 
It’s instilled in us to be free


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Heartbreaking day. I didn’t know what else to do when I got home.


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## BeerBatter (Aug 1, 2006)

I mourn the loss of our service men and women
They were only trying to help those to come to America and salute our flag for our freedoms 
They gave the ultimate sacrifice 
But I am so proud of them

😢


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaading an op-ed piece the other day, I learned something that I did not know. That Afghanistan has a "fighting season". When Fall comes, the Taliban break off fighting to harvest their poppy fields. Someone else posted how how much of the opium trade they control. After that, they make their way South through the mountain passes into Pakistan where they overwinter. Apparently the Winters in Afghanistan are pretty brutal. In Spring they come back North and the first thing they do is plant their poppy fields again. After that is finished, it's time to fight!

Well, guess when we decided to leave! Right in the height of the fighting season, and with no apparent plan that seemed to make any sense at all! All they had to do is wait until the Taliban returned to the poppy fields, and they would have had plenty of time to do things right!


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## Morrowtucky Mike (May 2, 2018)

My son recently graduated from Parris Island. He’s now stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. I talked with him this evening to give my condolences of his fallen Marine brothers. These new marines that are our future are basically clueless on what’s going on. He told me they asked about what happened and got punished for even asking! I could never be more proud of his accomplishments or his decision on his future path. Yet I can’t help but fear for his future under the current administration. I fully understand what he signed up for and accept those dangers he might face to protect the freedom we so cherish. My heart aches for the family members of the marines that were sacrificed today.







Graduation day, 07/09/2021


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## ohiotuber (Apr 15, 2004)

Morrowtucky Mike said:


> My son recently graduated from Parris Island. He’s now stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. I talked with him this evening to give my condolences of his fallen Marine brothers. These new marines that are our future are basically clueless on what’s going on. He told me they asked about what happened and got punished for even asking! I could never be more proud of his accomplishments or his decision on his future path. Yet I can’t help but fear for his future under the current administration. I fully understand what he signed up for and accept those dangers he might face to protect the freedom we so cherish. My heart aches for the family members of the marines that were sacrificed today.
> View attachment 474990
> 
> 
> ...


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Messed up situation as already stated. Regarding recent bombing at one of the gates. Seems suicide bombing and attack was by isis-k, a splinter group from isis. Isis-k and Taliban actually fight each other and have been for several years. Taliban is basically the ruling govt now with the seemingly instant collapse of the Afghan army and it's governing body. CIA director meets Taliban leaders a few days ago. Seems like a strange arrangement where Taliban hates the US but wants us out so they can have their way with the country. It's in their best interest to get us out as fast as possible without any further engagement or they know very possibly we stick around longer. 
This is why Taliban controls the roads leading to air port and checkpoints on the way. Supposedly letting Americans through while trying to keep afghans in and I would guess picking up their own persons of interest. 
Just pointing out the odd arrangement as I completely thought Taliban would push to take the airport or not permit anyone through which isn't the case.


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Morrowtucky Mike said:


> You have good reason to be proud. There are many sayings about who fights wars vs the ones who pay the ultimate price. It's a reason many good soldiers leave the armed forces after seeing what it's all about first hand. When your in it, it's about your brothers around you not the the cause that sent you there. Also a reason lots of guys stay in, even if they want to leave when their contract is up, guilt about leaving your brothers behind.


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

burnsj5 said:


> Messed up situation as already stated. Regarding recent bombing at one of the gates. Seems suicide bombing and attack was by isis-k, a splinter group from isis. Isis-k and Taliban actually fight each other and have been for several years. Taliban is basically the ruling govt now with the seemingly instant collapse of the Afghan army and it's governing body. CIA director meets Taliban leaders a few days ago. Seems like a strange arrangement where Taliban hates the US but wants us out so they can have their way with the country. It's in their best interest to get us out as fast as possible without any further engagement or they know very possibly we stick around longer.
> This is why Taliban controls the roads leading to air port and checkpoints on the way. Supposedly letting Americans through while trying to keep afghans in and I would guess picking up their own persons of interest.
> Just pointing out the odd arrangement as I completely thought Taliban would push to take the airport or not permit anyone through which isn't the case.


I got a suspicion that there's afghans with memberships in both the Taliban and isis-k. And what about the possibility that the Taliban and isis are just playing good cop- bad cop on our way out. Not saying there one and the same, just that the US is both there enemy. And I could see them working together in that regard. 

Kip


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

One guy and a boat said:


> I got a suspicion that there's afghans with memberships in both the Taliban and isis-k. And what about the possibility that the Taliban and isis are just playing good cop- bad cop on our way out. Not saying there one and the same, just that the US is both there enemy. And I could see them working together in that regard.
> 
> Kip


I would say that's a reasonable possibility for sure.


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## DUCKHEAD (Apr 28, 2007)

Last I heard 80,000 plus evacuated and of those about 4500 were Americans. How many interpreters did we have over there?


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## dconant (Jul 19, 2021)

Deadeyedeek said:


> What a shame! You Afgan-Iraq vets gotta feel the same way we did when we saw VN collapes..We dont have a clue how to fight a war anymore! Please dont make this political..it just hurts


It is political sorry to say and you know why !


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

Truly a sad time for Americans for both the deaths and how the decisions were made to leave. 

Prayers go out to the families of our soldiers, past present, and future.

I sure hope we use 9/11 to light the place up, but I would be fine with it happening on 9/1


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## fishless (Sep 18, 2014)

I thank your son for his service .Great looking young man .You should be proud !


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## sliprig (Apr 6, 2004)

My former employer's son in based at Ramstein in Germany., working as a aid to one of the commanders. Got pulled out of a fighter jet at the request (order) from his superior. He worked a couple summers with us, great kid and very smart. Once all this blows over I'm sure he will have some great stories.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

buckeyebowman said:


> Reaading an op-ed piece the other day, I learned something that I did not know. That Afghanistan has a "fighting season". When Fall comes, the Taliban break off fighting to harvest their poppy fields. Someone else posted how how much of the opium trade they control. After that, they make their way South through the mountain passes into Pakistan where they overwinter. Apparently the Winters in Afghanistan are pretty brutal. In Spring they come back North and the first thing they do is plant their poppy fields again. After that is finished, it's time to fight!
> 
> Well, guess when we decided to leave! Right in the height of the fighting season, and with no apparent plan that seemed to make any sense at all! All they had to do is wait until the Taliban returned to the poppy fields, and they would have had plenty of time to do things right!


Guess we should have left in May. 🤔


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

*


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## Mattiba (Apr 7, 2020)

I watched on, Fox News, they had an interpreter on and a lady that was helping him. It made me tear up. This guy knows he’s going to die and he has a young daughter. The lady helping him was an angel and could barely hold it together while talking to him and Dana Perino was tearing up also. Just terrible that this is happening this way! My heart goes out to everyone that’s good over there. We have to save those people, they’re true heroes! America does care about the good ones, they’ve done so much for the world, even if our leaders don’t convey that. 😢


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

These are the US service members killed in the Kabul airport attack


The identities of the 13 US service members who were killed by an ISIS-K suicide bomber outside the Kabul airport while helping to oversee the evacuation of thousands of Americans and Afghan allies…




nypost.com





These are their Names and Faces. RIP


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

And all the potus wanted to talk about in his news conference after the attack was HIS son who died after serving in the military. DISGRACEFUL.


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## BuckeyeFishin07 (Apr 10, 2017)

Smitty82 said:


> These are the US service members killed in the Kabul airport attack
> 
> 
> The identities of the 13 US service members who were killed by an ISIS-K suicide bomber outside the Kabul airport while helping to oversee the evacuation of thousands of Americans and Afghan allies…
> ...


All too young! May they rest in peace, and prayers to their families!


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Specwar said:


> And all the potus wanted to talk about in his news conference after the attack was HIS son who died after serving in the military. DISGRACEFUL.




Didn't see on the news where he met the plane with our hero's on it at the airport, did I miss it?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have been watching this thread for a few days and I am really struggling with how to separate expressing opinions on this subject while keeping any comments non political

The situation is a direct result of political action. I do not mean that our commander and chief necessarily made decisions for political gain rather that our commander and chief, in my opinion, it not up to the task. Where it becomes political is when you consider how he became the commander and chief of this great country. It was obvious, in my opinion, that he was incapable of running this country and yet a large segment of the population voted for this leadership. I believe my concerns of the inibility to lead this country both domestically and internationally has been unfortunately fully realized.

The sad situation we all find ourselves in today is a direct result of actions of many entrusting him with our collective futures by voting him into the position of the most powerful position on the earth.


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Interesting reading.


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## cement569 (Jan 21, 2016)

i try to stay out of anything political on this website because i cherish my membership here but what you said is 100% true.....amen brother


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## Specwar (Sep 22, 2014)

Sorry about the multiple posts.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

So I received a call from a friend of mine that asked if I was assigning him personal responsibility for the dismal situations this country finds itself in today because he supported (voted) the current administration? I told him from just a factual analysis, not emotional, yes, for sure, no way to get around that conclusion. Our leaders are put into a position of leadership, to represent the values and interest of the people, by the people, they can’t assume that role without a citizen vote. It has always been accepted that people vote for those that most closely align with their personal values and beliefs.

I also told him that I am sure the current train wreck of a country was not his intent, which he quickly confirmed. I did ask him why the masses that were so vocal expressing disdain for the previous administration actions have gone silent? I told him that the silence is a deafening expression of hypocrisy.

I tried to offer an example. If you accidentally kill someone with a gun you believed was unloaded the death was not intentional yet the result is the same. The difference is you would express regret and apologize? Yet we hear no regret and certainly no apologies from those responsible for the realities of today. My life and the life of my family has been impacted in a negative way through no actions of my own.

This all leaves me to internalize two questions. Is there no buyers remorse, or is it just there is no one willing to express it?


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## CoonDawg92 (Jun 1, 2016)

Lundy said:


> It has always been accepted that people vote for those that most closely align with their personal values and beliefs.


Lundy, I feel what you are saying in this current situation, and it has been a sad time for our country during this cluster of a withdrawal.

I do want to say that it has been a long time since I could say a Presidential candidate in the final running from either of the major parties has closely aligned with my personal values and beliefs (when you look at who they really are, not just what they say on the stump).

My vote has gone to the person who I hoped would screw things up the least. The lesser of two evils if you will. My dad instilled a strong value in me to exercise my right to vote, because he and countless others fought, and many died, for it. But I am ashamed for our country that we have no better candidates from either major party to choose from.


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## loweman165 (May 15, 2015)

So #46 is going to Dover Air Force Base to attend the ceremony as the fallen soldiers return home. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Do you really believe those mothers and fathers whanr him there? Is that not introducing more stress to the lives of the loved ones involved? Classless moved all done in the name of public relations! I'll stop typing now, I'm too f^#^@ irritated with the whole God awful situation.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

Yep, well put Lundy..what gets my panties in a bunch is 370 million people in the US and ya dump em in a funnel and you end up with 2 choices for prez!! Really!


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

Well, we've reached the point in this discussion where it has become impossible to eliminate politics because politics is at the root of the issue. This thread has run 10 pages long so it's not like we haven't been lenient.
I'm closing this now before it gets more heated and somebody ends up on a vacation... or worse.

Hey y'all there's a hurricane about to hit us again.


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