# G.Lake St. Marys update.



## MassillonBuckeye

Not sure if had been posted but I work with a guy who's wife works for Ohio EPA and said two preliminary tests were successful on fingers of the lake that were partitioned off and treated with alum. Positive results. So I guess thats a go for the larger project + dredging. Good news! Now if we can stop some of the nutrient run-off.. Never been on that lake, but man I feel for that community and the state as a whole. Largest inland lake in Ohio almost ruined already. Whats it going to be like in 50 years?


----------



## zaraspook

Since early August microcystin levels remain below the World Health Org standards of 20 part per billion. Latest test results average 3.3 ppb at the three normal test sites. The toxin levels are at a comparable level as when the water contact advisory was lifted in the spring of this year.

Saxitoxin is not detected for 3 consecutive months. Cylindro-spermopsin levels are also undetectable since 7-19-10. Anatoxin was not detectable at two of the three test sites and measured .05-.1 ppb at one site. 

Toxin advisories remain in effect for GLSM plus 5 other Ohio lakes as of 10-1-10 but GLSM is near the point where toxin advisory should be lifted and the "no contact" advisory should be waived also. It doesn't mean nutrient problem is gone. The phosphorus and nitrates remain but weather conditions aren't sufficient as a catalyst for another algae bloom, followed by algae decay, which produces bad byproducts (toxins). 

Test data is posted here www.epa.ohio.gov/portals/35/inland_lakes/glsm_microcystin_data.pdf


----------



## GETTIN' THERE

Did the State ever go through with the duck blinds and are the Duck Hunters using the lake?


----------



## zaraspook

If the state didn't do go thru with drawings for duck blinds, and if duck hunting is not allowed, then Iran must be invading GLSM. Definitely sounded like a war zone last Saturday morning. Plenty of boats dressed in camo running around on the lake.


----------



## GETTIN' THERE

Glad to hear someone is getting use out of the lake, unfortunately I am sure the duck hunters don't bring near the $$$ into the area as the summer traffic.


----------



## krs2fer

No fishing advised at Grand Lake St. Marys until fall 2011, EPA says

There is a link in the Dayton Daily News story but I can't post it.


----------



## zaraspook

Here's the link mentioned by krs2fer. Nothing to stop you from catching fish, but consuming your catch is a different story. EPA doesn't have data to determine if toxins can or do build up in fish flesh. The Dayton Daily News article provides a good summary of what's going on, as well as EPA's advisory against consumption.

www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton...epa-says-983752.html?cxtype=rss_ece_frontpage


----------



## fishwhacker

Yes the duck hunters are out and doing well. I live by the lake and hear the shotgun blasts just about every morning. I have been out fun fishing and catching more fish than i have in the last 10 years... 1 year no fishing pressure must have improved the fishing along with some of trial testing im sure. Not secure enough to eat my catch but all fish look healthy. I think my catch count the other day was about 40 bluegills and 30 crappies. Most of the crappies were small but did have 5 qualify past the 9inch min. Just wanted everyone to know there is still hope for the lake.


----------



## zaraspook

fishwhacker said:


> Yes the duck hunters are out and doing well. I live by the lake and hear the shotgun blasts just about every morning. I have been out fun fishing and catching more fish than i have in the last 10 years... 1 year no fishing pressure must have improved the fishing along with some of trial testing im sure. Not secure enough to eat my catch but all fish look healthy. I think my catch count the other day was about 40 bluegills and 30 crappies. Most of the crappies were small but did have 5 qualify past the 9inch min. Just wanted everyone to know there is still hope for the lake.


fishwhacker........My fishing results are similar to yours. I'm usually at GLSM one day each weekend. Catching very good numbers of crappies and bluegills, but crappies are smaller than we caught in the spring, and smaller than last 2 years. On the other hand, bluegills show good quantity and better size than in past. 

The bite Saturday was slow where I fished.....only six crappies, one at 10", and 3 or 4 bluegills during 2 hours of fishing. The number of small crappies suggest next couple of years could be very good. Lack of bigger crappies makes me wonder if the big ones weren't victims of the fish kill/oxygen depletion that followed the summer's algae bloom.

Water clarity last Saturday was slightly better than the prior week.......visibility to perhaps 10 inches. Water temp was 56 on my test thermometer. By the way, EPA water tests on 10-20 showed no detection of anatoxin-a at all three testing locations. That's the first time for "no detect" since the June bloom. Anatoxin-a was the bad boy toxin brought by last year's new algae.


----------



## zaraspook

Looks like the the State folks are acquiring a new/additional dredge to go after GLSM's internal nutrient loading. New unit goes online in the spring. Dredging hasn't been very evident the last few years. Article reports dredging renewed about the first of Sept. 

Problem now is where do you put the removed sediment? If this stuff is as rich in nutrients as claimed, why isn't it attractive to farmers, particularly those losing topsoil? Of course, if the farmers use it and they don't have properly buffered fields, the junk becomes runoff, flows into creeks in the watershed, and goes right back into the lake......vicious cycle. Celina newspaper link is here www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=13233


----------



## zaraspook

Two Ohio lakes remain under toxin advisories from the Ohio EPA. Grand Lake St. Marys is NOT on the list. GLSM toxin advisory was lifted Oct 29.

My son and I celebrated Saturday by catching 40 crappies and 27 bluegills in 3 hours. Hope burns eternal.

EPA link is here www.epa.ohio.gov/portals/47/nr/2010/october/10-29algae.pdf


----------



## Sanitarian2

zaraspook said:


> Looks like the the State folks are acquiring a new/additional dredge to go after GLSM's internal nutrient loading. New unit goes online in the spring. Dredging hasn't been very evident the last few years. Article reports dredging renewed about the first of Sept.
> 
> Problem now is where do you put the removed sediment? If this stuff is as rich in nutrients as claimed, why isn't it attractive to farmers, particularly those losing topsoil? Of course, if the farmers use it and they don't have properly buffered fields, the junk becomes runoff, flows into creeks in the watershed, and goes right back into the lake......vicious cycle. Celina newspaper link is here www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=13233


Transportation costs are the problem, it's just too water logged to move at a reasonable price. That's the same problem with the Cattle and hog waste, liquid level is too high. The chicken waste can and is moved from watershed to watershed. I remember reading that it cost at least twice as much per dredge hour if the sediment is moved verses added to the shoreline. I would love to see the State go with the "Island" option or as a second choice, just continue to add to existing shoreline.


----------



## zaraspook

GLSM water is so powerful we're gonna power jet engines! Article from the Celina Daily Standard www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=13340


----------



## LEfriend

Well I see our new Governor wasted no time appointing a former Mercer County Poultry farmer as Director of Ag. Same guy who as a legislator moved the animal waste enforcement from EPA to Agriculture (according to the gov elect's own press release). Now he gets the chance to show how good he can do... as Chief Enforcer of the laws he took from Ohio EPA and gave to the agency he heads because it was more farmer friendly.



Wonder how a governor who campaigned against regulations is going to clean up the lake without them..... or maybe he's not?


----------



## Sanitarian2

One of the local firedepartments was given permission by OEPA to pump mycrosystin toxin containing lake water on a fire and they mixed lake water and city water from a hydrant in the same truck. Lake water was then pumped back into the city lines and citizens were getting green lake water out of their taps.

Nice job OEPA and others, duh!


----------



## zaraspook

LEfriend said:


> Well I see our new Governor wasted no time appointing a former Mercer County Poultry farmer as director of ag. Same guy who as a legislator moved the animal waste enforcement from EPA to Agriculture. Now he gets the chance to show how good he can do...
> 
> Wonder how a governor who campaigned to reduce regulations is going to clean up the lake..... or not?


I don't know anything about the appointee so it would be unfair to knock him. Zehringer's understanding of animal waste control could be beneficial, but if his perspective is purely to protect interest of the farmer, lake cleanup will be a struggle. Apparently he's the former owner and operator of the Meiring Poultry and Fish Farm. Unfortunately, from his background he may not be one to deliver the "tough love" needed to ag operations in GLSM watershed. I wish him luck and hope he can balance the needs of farmer and environment. At this point farmer's are doing OK......lake is on life support.


----------



## Sanitarian2

Kind of ironic, he sponsored a bill last year to do away with ODA at the cabinet level and fold it into other programs.


----------



## zaraspook

Celina Daily Standard carried this article about the new Ohio Dir Agric (Zehringer). Link is below.

This is a reference to his poultry/fish operation "The operation, Meiring Poultry and Fish Farm, received awards for compliance and has been regarded as a model for best management practices in the state." It includes commentary regarding GLSM watershed problems. Some of his words counter the new watershed regulations being phased in thru 2012. 

Overall, the article suggests the Ag community and those repesenting environmental arena are OK with the appointment. He acknowledges the Ag community needs to step up to plate, stop blaming geese and septic tanks for GLSM. 

Bottomline, actions speak louder than words. Let's see what Zehringer does. Article link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=13529


----------



## LEfriend

From our Governor elect on cleaning up Grand Lake and the proposed fertilizer rules as reported in the Dispatch...

_Gov.-elect John Kasich told members of the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation yesterday that he does not support rules that would curb farm pollution that flows into algae-plagued Grand Lake St. Marys

"I am not big on imposing rules and regulations on 100 people when we need to take one person out and put him in a stockade and throw some fruit and vegetables at him," Kasich said."_

Throw fruits and vegetables...yea that will sure prevent a lot of the fertilizer from getting in the lake...

Read the full article at....

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/12/04/copy/pollution-rules-slammed.html


----------



## Lynxis

money speaks


----------



## zaraspook

Hate to think we're back to square one and have to educate another governor for several years before he's embarassed into action. Anyone know the last time someone in GLSM watershed was caught, fined, punished for shi**y farming practices? 

Kasich may be right......if state would enforce maybe the entire ag community in watershed wouldn't need new regulation. Reagan called it "trust, but verify". Let's get some inspection going if that's the new policy.


----------



## fishintechnician

zaraspook said:


> GLSM water is so powerful we're gonna power jet engines! Article from the Celina Daily Standard www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=13340



this is the company that I work for we are still workign on methods of cleaning and remediation even though our first prelim tests were not as succesfull as we liked, I know I haven't commented on this in a while just been super busy


----------



## zaraspook

fishintechnician said:


> this is the company that I work for we are still workign on methods of cleaning and remediation even though our first prelim tests were not as succesfull as we liked, I know I haven't commented on this in a while just been super busy


fishintech........If the pilots to flip GLSM algae were not overwhelming success this round, what's next? Do you continue, change silica concentration with a new recipe, go forward with a different concept, or punt?


----------



## zpyles_00

Askin everyone to say a prayer for my uncle, Ronnie Pyles. For those of you who don't know him, he has been the park ranger at GLSM for as long as I can remember and a dedicated outdoorsman. 

He was diagnosed with lung and traecheal(spelling?) cancer a few months back and goes into surgery tomorrow at OSU to have the one lung removed entirely and will be doing exploritory procedures as well. 

Thanks, 

Zach Pyles


----------



## triton189

LEfriend said:


> From our Governor elect on cleaning up Grand Lake and the proposed fertilizer rules as reported in the Dispatch...
> 
> _Gov.-elect John Kasich told members of the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation yesterday that he does not support rules that would curb farm pollution that flows into algae-plagued Grand Lake St. Marys
> 
> "I am not big on imposing rules and regulations on 100 people when we need to take one person out and put him in a stockade and throw some fruit and vegetables at him," Kasich said."_
> 
> Throw fruits and vegetables...yea that will sure prevent a lot of the fertilizer from getting in the lake...
> 
> Read the full article at....
> 
> http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/12/04/copy/pollution-rules-slammed.html


This guy does not care about outdoorsman! The NRA gave him an "F" in their rating. I once sat next to him on a flight from Columbus to Charlotte and he was quite arrogant.


----------



## LEfriend

zpyles_00 said:


> Askin everyone to say a prayer for my uncle, Ronnie Pyles. For those of you who don't know him, he has been the park ranger at GLSM for as long as I can remember and a dedicated outdoorsman.
> 
> He was diagnosed with lung and traecheal(spelling?) cancer a few months back and goes into surgery tomorrow at OSU to have the one lung removed entirely and will be doing exploritory procedures as well.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Zach Pyles


Prayers are with you and your family at this tough time. He will be at a great hospital. Pulling for the best for you.


----------



## fishintechnician

zaraspook said:


> fishintech........If the pilots to flip GLSM algae were not overwhelming success this round, what's next? Do you continue, change silica concentration with a new recipe, go forward with a different concept, or punt?


We are experimenting with the silica mixute and with some diatom cultures that we may try and seed with there are alos a couple of other ideas that we are doing r&d on now.

As far as our technology to concentrate and remove the algae from the water this has been very successful and we are workign on larger scales of this for spring, I know that this does not solve the problem of toxic algae in your watershed but it is very beneficial in making biofuels and bio-energy.
We are very dedicated to this lake and we will be here for a long time to come.


----------



## zaraspook

fishintechnician said:


> We are experimenting with the silica mixute and with some diatom cultures that we may try and seed with there are alos a couple of other ideas that we are doing r&d on now.


Glad to hear your company is resolute. I know your firm wasn't involved, but anything floating in the rumor mills about the results from alum treatments?


----------



## fishintechnician

From what we heard it was not succesfull haven't heard weather they are still trying or not, i know that the test areas are still sectioned off.


----------



## zaraspook

yes.......I noticed the partitions/water curtains were still in place at Otterbein on southeast corner of lake. Wasn't the original plan to do the fall alum treatment and another in Mar/April time frame?


----------



## fishintechnician

Don't know of there schedule may be or they may not have got to them before the freeze.


----------



## zaraspook

Fishintech..........have you seen the results of the study at this link http://www.oh.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/ ? At the bottom of the linked page are 2 links, one for 2009 test data and the other for 2010 data. Maybe you can interpret the meaning of the phosphorus/nitrogen data. I can tell it's comparing data from Chickasaw Creek, one of the significant creeks in GLSM watershed, with 2 other creeks in NW Ohio. It shows Chickasaw is 2-4 times worse and more polluted than the other creeks. Disgustingly it says Chickasaw exceeded EPA standards on 80% of days tested!

Scouting the farm fields adjacent to Chickasaw, it's very noticeable that very few of the fields follow best practices with decent buffers between the fields and the creek. More annoying, despite the algae debacle during last summer at GLSM, zero fields show any change in buffers, any effort to lessen runoff into the creek with flow directly to the lake. The ag guys in the area claim they aren't the problem? It's pure bull and no evidence the ag community wants to be part of the solution. 

Please someone post evidence that any farmer with land adjacent to Chickasaw Creek is actually doing something to lessen loading/runoff into Chickasaw Creek. I'd love to apologize to any farmer along Chickasaw who deserves credit rather than my complaints. Hope I have to eat my words over and over again. The good guys deserve credit and accolades but let us hear about merit due.


----------



## zpyles_00

posted in central ohio forum as well. trust me we aren't getting all the facts one is because the state doesn't have them themselves and two they don't want to create a "situation" is how it was worded to me. 

anyone can say what they want about st marys but i'm telling you first hand that lake should be condemned and the surrounding population evacuated until they know exactly what the health risk are and i'm sure they don't know 100% yet. 

I know a guy who's dog was swimming in the lake and the dog was dead within 2 hours of contact and now he has to go to OSU medical weekly to get treatment for the damage the water did to his nervous system from washing his dog off. not to mention the weird skin irritations he has now. 

i also know a couple bass fisherman who tried to fish the lake before they wouldn't allow boats on the water period who didn't even make it half way across the lake before they were both vomiting perfusely.

of course the stinch has went down and the water isn't as green right now, but its the middle of friggin winter, what do you expect. i'm predicting it will be twice as bad this coming summer and it will take someone paying the ultimate price with there life before the correct action, which should have been taken long time ago, is actually taken. 

they've known this lake has been toxic for 10 years and are just now getting around to doing something about it.


----------



## fishintechnician

Zara I will see if i can get one of our chemists/biologists to look at the data, I'm just an engineer so I am not the greatest at that stuff. i will say that the ag industry is playing a large part in this. the lake is a virtual breeding ground for algae, plenty of nitrogen, shallow water allows for rapid increase in temps and good agitation of the water from all the wind that it gets. The algae WILL be back next year, nobody knows what strand though. It may be toxic it may not. When algae dies it cell wall starts to break down but there is something like a spore that is left behind and when the conditons are right it will bloom. The algae its self is not killing aquatic wildlife from the toxins it is killing things from a lack of dissolved oxygen, thats why most of the fragiler fishes die off first. We currently have been developing a system to dewater manure effectively trapping all the nutrients in a dried "flake". if we can get the ag industry to embrace this it would make it cost effective for manure to be hauled away and utilized or even incinerated. That way it the framing tin the area wouldn't be spreading it on fields that results in runoff directly into the lake. Bad ag practices are a major contributor to the problem, if every one would work together on a solution rather than pointing fingers and passing blame the problem could get fixed alot sooner.


----------



## zpyles_00

is the dewatering system of the manure going to be something that is affordable to the farmers? or is it going to be so exspensive to have that it won't even be considered?

i could ask a thousand questions about this that will be asked at sometime, cost, tax breaks, state funding, reimburstment, etc.... things that will have to be considered


----------



## SpecialNick

dont forget about all the things you can do from your smaller lots too, dont use weed killers with phosphates, read about your fertilizers, make sure your detergents are phosphate free. obviously there are big issues with ag runoff, subsurface drainage and things but if everyone does there part and talks about it this is fixable


----------



## fishintechnician

zpyles_00 said:


> is the dewatering system of the manure going to be something that is affordable to the farmers? or is it going to be so exspensive to have that it won't even be considered?
> 
> i could ask a thousand questions about this that will be asked at sometime, cost, tax breaks, state funding, reimburstment, etc.... things that will have to be considered


The cost for our largest system will be less than a new tractor and this isn't really something that the small time farmer would be worried about (at least not on the scale we are talking about), this is aimed more toward the mega farm types which we all know are a big problem and produce exponential amounts of waste. right now they are just spreading it after it has gone through an anaerobic digester. This leads to excess run off and they even apply on feilds where it is not needed so the minerals are not absorbed correctly. they do this because it is way too expensive for them to remove the waste in the liquid state. our process will remove a specific amount of water but kind of leave like a paste when it is done. they will use this paste and turn it into peelets for fuel. It is still in the first stages as of now but we are working with a large farm that has hogs in many states including oh, they have commited to two of our large harvesters and are possibly wanting many more if this works they way they want it to. It is really a win win for everyone involved.i can't answer the questions on tax breaks and such as I do not know.

All this being said I still belive that more needs to be done to improve farming practices as a whole. this machine alone will by no means solve the problem, but we are working on a solution to the root causes of the algal problem as well as cleaning the lake. Not much use to get it clean just to have to do it again in 5 to 10 years.


----------



## zpyles_00

i think i seen an episode on dirty jobs with mike rowe about one of those machines you're talking about. it was pretty interesting


----------



## fishintechnician

Maybe the one for burning the fuel but not to dewater it, this is a brand new machine that my company designed and built. there are only a handfull of the smaller ones in operation now.


----------



## Saws21

I remember when fishmounter started a thread about how the farming practices are killing the Lake and everything around it,,,,,,,,, At that time, it seemed like no one thought he knew what he was talking about,,, well looks like its coming true. Before you fix the Lake, how about starting where the problem begins


----------



## zaraspook

Dec 15 - Mar 1 manure spreading ban is the proposed regulation......the intent of this impending regulation is to prevent spreading of animal crap on frozen fields. A high content of waste put on frozen fields ends up as runoff, into the creeks, and into the lake. Farmers aren't happy with Dec 15th date.........this year the fields were frozen before Dec 1. Does that mean GLSM has a good chance to be worse than last year? 

I understand majority of farmers don't have capacity to store 3+ months worth of crap, but when did they earn the right to use the lake to handle overflow? When other businesses have a pollution problem, they must increase storage capacity or reduce the waste production. If not the State EPA shuts them down. Why are farms exempted from same set of rules, and why do farms think they should wait until they get a grant/hand out? Make a business decision like other businesses do......either reduce waste creation (fewer animals), or improve your storage capacity. 

Fishintech......great that your company is working on the front-side of phosphate problem, too. But, even if the equipment is refined and dirt-cheap, farmers won't buy it until the State or Fed AG department gives them a grant. The public and the public waterways are paying for ag indiscretions. This is insanity! Stop it!


----------



## LEfriend

zaraspook said:


> Dec 15 - Mar 1 manure spreading ban is the proposed regulation......the intent of this impending regulation is to prevent spreading of animal crap on frozen fields. A high content of waste put on frozen fields ends up as runoff, into the creeks, and into the lake. Farmers aren't happy with Dec 15th date.........this year the fields were frozen before Dec 1. Does that mean GLSM has a good chance to be worse than last year?


There are restrictions that apply before Dec 1st if the ground is frozen, including an amount limit, location, buffers and a minimum amount of residue that needs to be on the field before any application can be made. It is not an anything goes outside of those dates.

Farmers are now stepping up in droves over there to sign up for assistance for waste storage facilities and nutrient plans. Go to the conservation office and ask how long the wait list is.

One problem in the past was that if farmer A made a "business decision" to build lots of storage, his neighbor farmer B didn't have to, didn't spend that money, didn't spend the cost to haul further. Farmer B then had an economic advantage over farmer A who did the right thing.

That is why the new rules are so important and it is important the new administration follow through with backing them. They will level the playing field for everyone. Not all farmers are unhappy or opposed to the new rules. Some good ones say it is about time others have to do what I have been doing. Like every group, you can't generalize against one class of people, there are good ones and not as good ones.


----------



## zaraspook

LEfriend............thanks for your input. I know most of the farmers are good apples, but why are none of the ag guys in GLSM watershed speaking out on the improvemens they are doing? It's curious that we get nothing but silence, therefore farmers continue to get grief.

I'm a business owner, too. When I'm faced with capital investment, the solution is not to sign up, get in line for assistance (a hand out). Ag community has become dependent on govt to help them, ethanol subsidies to bloat corn prices, grants and loans for equipment/holding ponds. It's a form of welfare and ag community needs to break the addiction. If I can't afford to carry the inventory I'd like to have, have to reduce inventory...........farmers need to reduce livestock if they cannot afford to safely and environmentally support the herd. It's bad business at everyone else's expense to operate in the same way with same outcome. Farmers are part of the Grand Lake St Mary's community and it's time for them to be good neighbors and good stewards of the resources. Poisoning the water resources around them is a cost they can avoid - this will cost them more in future regulations, fines than it would to fix it now without forcing gov't into their business. They complain about regulation and interference, but who is to blame?


----------



## Kingfish_1968

zaraspook said:


> LEfriend............thanks for your input. I know most of the farmers are good apples, but why are none of the ag guys in GLSM watershed speaking out on the improvemens they are doing? It's curious that we get nothing but silence, therefore farmers continue to get grief.
> 
> I'm a business owner, too. When I'm faced with capital investment, the solution is not to sign up, get in line for assistance (a hand out). Ag community has become dependent on govt to help them, ethanol subsidies to bloat corn prices, grants and loans for equipment/holding ponds. It's a form of welfare and ag community needs to break the addiction. If I can't afford to carry the inventory I'd like to have, have to reduce inventory...........farmers need to reduce livestock if they cannot afford to safely and environmentally support the herd. It's bad business at everyone else's expense to operate in the same way with same outcome. Farmers are part of the Grand Lake St Mary's community and it's time for them to be good neighbors and good stewards of the resources. Poisoning the water resources around them is a cost they can avoid - this will cost them more in future regulations, fines than it would to fix it now without forcing gov't into their business. They complain about regulation and interference, but who is to blame?


Well said Zara! Thanks for putting it out there!


----------



## eyecrazy

2nd that Zara. Very well said.


----------



## LEfriend

Some new information reported in the Dispatch about the results of the Grand Lake Alum tests...


http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/12/31/algae-fix-disappoints.html?sid=101


----------



## zaraspook

LEfriend said:


> Some new information reported in the Dispatch about the results of the Grand Lake Alum tests...
> 
> 
> http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/12/31/algae-fix-disappoints.html?sid=101


I saw similar report on Channel 7 news out of Dayton. Weird that the 3rd test site showed no improvement from alum treatment. Important to know what was different about that application.

This could be a blessing if we weren't getting mixed messages out of the new Gov and his dept heads. Without a quick fix from either the alum treatments nor the silica plan to flip the bad algae to a form of non-toxin algae, it's more important for ag community to cease practices which continue every day to kill the lake and it's job-producing economy. Unfortunately, new administration may not fully embrace fixing the problem until they experience a couple years of life-threatening summer blooms.


----------



## zaraspook

News story at the link below (from Celina Daily Standard) provides more info regarding last fall's alum treatment at GLSM. Interesting that a 50-60% reduction of phosphorus and chlorophyll is broadly labeled a "failure"? If the nutrients entering the lake from the watershed to south, almost all farms, were reduced by 50-60% I'd be excited as hell, as would most businesses and residents in the area!

No way could the test sites be sealed off to prevent entry of other lake water, particularly the West Bank site.Those water walls did not seal squat and West Bank area is almost wide open to the lake in comparison to Harmon's and Otterbein. If the agricultural guys are smart, they will get on-board and support these treatment plans. If none of the treatment schemes work, expense all at state or fed level, farmers will be under more pressure to fix their issues sooner not later. Also, the article says the silica/diatom treatment hasn't yet been reported on, but we know from earlier posts in this thread those results were not good. 

here's the new link http://dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=13794


----------



## fishintechnician

Zara you are correct that we have not reported on the data from the silica and that it was not a success, but we are still collecting data and we have some good "leads" or info that will help us move forward with treatment. That is about all that I am allowed to say.


----------



## zaraspook

fishintechnician said:


> Zara you are correct that we have not reported on the data from the silica and that it was not a success, but we are still collecting data and we have some good "leads" or info that will help us move forward with treatment. That is about all that I am allowed to say.


Thanks for the insight you can provide........I realize speaking out of school isn't wise. Good to hear your employer is in this for the long run. Those of us at GLSM need to hear encouragement, some optimism that the lake's problems can be fixed.

Sunday I noticed a large area of open water on the main lake. It's on the north side stretching from Wright State several hundred yards to the east. I'm itching to fish, but am not an ice guy, and no way to safely get to that open water. Also, found open water on the east side of the waterfowl preserve (island) just north of Windy Point. Channels are locked up with ice though ice is thin near the banks (result of last week's warm weather). I did see one guy ice fishing in the state park area of Windy Point.


----------



## fishwhacker

even though the phosophorus was reduced by 50% did anyone here if it was because of the silica or was the control area also reduced by 50%?? I know that the lake was bad this summer because of the lack of rain and stagnant water, was wondering if the reduction of the phosophorus was due to the rain that moved i during the test and the colder weather... any thoughts or info about how the control faired??


----------



## zaraspook

fishwhacker said:


> even though the phosophorus was reduced by 50% did anyone here if it was because of the silica or was the control area also reduced by 50%?? I know that the lake was bad this summer because of the lack of rain and stagnant water, was wondering if the reduction of the phosophorus was due to the rain that moved i during the test and the colder weather... any thoughts or info about how the control faired??


As I understand it water samples in treated areas were compared to water samples taken at other, non-treated control sites. Phosphorus and chlorophyll in treated areas tested at 50-60% of non-treated areas. I guess that equates to 40-50% reduction.........while it isn't 100% improvement, hard to call that a failure.

No way to really assess until they publish data. Maybe someone who monitors the forum can clarify. The article was talking about the alum treatment program, not the silica/diatom test. No official report on the silica trial although we know it was not deemed "successful".


----------



## pomiller72

This has been a nightmare......I have fished this lake since a was about 3yr old....geeze that was 35 years ago. I fished it once last year right before the lake blew up. Even then the fish have a G Lake taste to them. I sure hope they can get some long term solutions in place so I can take my son up there.


----------



## LEfriend

Just heard the new governor fired yesterday the directors of the DNR departments of Wildlife, Forestry and Soil and Water Conservation. Three good, dedicated, competent, trained professional people. All three were non-political long time experienced people and worked for both republican and democratic governors in the past. Looks like this guy is out to get rid of experienced professional people and put in his political lackeys who won't have a clue.


----------



## zaraspook

LEfriend said:


> Just heard the new governor fired yesterday the directors of the DNR departments of Wildlife, Forestry and Soil and Water Conservation. Three good, dedicated, competent, trained professional people. All three were non-political long time experienced people and worked for both republican and democratic governors in the past. Looks like this guy is out to get rid of experienced professional people and put in his political lackeys who won't have a clue.


Without debating the wisdom of separating long-term employees, the incoming Director of DNR and Director of Ohio EPA have the right to appoint their own staff heads. It happens in state government and private sector every day. The political appointee stuff cuts both ways. I read that the outgoing Director of DNR was formerly a state senator.......the outgoing Director of Ohio EPA also a former state senator. If true it's tough to imagine the past ODNR team operated without any evidence of a political agenda/influence.

I will certainly be ticked if the new manure handling changes are delayed, or not put into effect, by the new appointees. Unfortunately, from Kasich's earlier comments the new manure rules are probably in jeopardy. But, GLSM problems are not going away until the source of the phosphorus is stopped. Kasich and his new directors will see the GLSM horror rubbed in their faces again this summer. They will publicly take grief every year about job losses from a dying water resource and a chronic threat to human health and life. Sooner or later they will be forced to bellyup to the bar to fix the problem. And, with each delay the problems worsen, the costs to fix get bigger.

Despite their tenure, the outgoing team in ODNR did not prevent nor were they able to fix the problem. I'm hoping it can't get worse and maybe a new team can do better.


----------



## LEfriend

I wasn't talking about Directors of ODNR, EPA, transportation, or any of the major departments. It is understood that these Directors change and that is common, usually a deputy or two under each also. That happens. What King Kasich did is fire every Chief of every Division within ODNR. Fourteen people. Div of Forestry, Div of Watercraft, Div of Parks and Rec, Div of Soil and Water, Div of Water, Division of Minerals, Div of Wildlife, Div of Geology...and all the rest. Fourteen people. These were long term career people...non political, dedicated, trained, experienced. Some were hired under past Republican governors! Some had worked under 4 or 5 governors, both Republicans an Democrats. Never in 40 years can I remember a wholesale massacre. It has never gone this much this low. Even in the past the folks that did change at this level were retained a short time to help with transition. Right now you have every agency in ODNR without leadership. This guy is going to be bad news for the fishermen and hunters of this state. Just watch.


----------



## zaraspook

LEfriend said:


> I wasn't talking about Directors of ODNR, EPA, transportation, or any of the major departments. It is understood that these Directors change and that is common, usually a deputy or two under each also. That happens. What King Kasich did is fire every Chief of every Division within ODNR. Fourteen people. Div of Forestry, Div of Watercraft, Div of Parks and Rec, Div of Soil and Water, Div of Water, Division of Minerals, Div of Wildlife, Div of Geology...and all the rest. Fourteen people. leadership. This guy is going to be bad news for the fishermen and hunters of this state. Just watch.


LEfriend.......I understood you weren't talking about Dir ODNR nor Dir OEPA, but you were referencing individual dept heads beneath Dir DNR like Div Forestry, etc. And I was unaware every Chief was booted........agree that's an extreme move. No way all of them would have been underperforming and deserve an exit.

However, it happens in the private sector frequently. New leadership of a company comes in, many and all staff heads are severed, and it may a couple levels deeper into an organization. The practice rarely has merit, and sorry for the callousness, but the public sector has it all wrong if they feel they deserve protection beyond those of professionals in the private sector. Again, I'm not saying it's appropriate to sever these people, but we all work "at will".

Though I'm showing my selfish interest in what happened with GLSM, specific to the DNR, any shake-up that goes on in the DNR could be justified. The mess at GLSM didn't begin with any of the incumbents, but undeniably escalated under the watch of the incumbent staff-members. When the danger to Ohio citizens reaches current levels, results in job losses, business losses, property value losses.........directly or indirectly staff members failed to protect Ohio's citizens. Not for one second do I feel anyone in the DNR intended to put Ohio citizens at risk. To me it is completely understandable that changes are needed in the DNR, and logically it would include staffing. You may be right that Kasich's moves will be worse, but GLSM's present state is hardly an achievement for DNR people to boast about on their resumes. The same fate should be shared by the new administration if they won't/can't/don't right the course.


----------



## puterdude

ODNR Designates Grand Lake St. Marys Watershed Distressed
Jan 20

Written by: news editor
1/20/2011 1:00 AM 
Due to the unprecedented harmful algal blooms of 2009 and 2010, the Grand Lake St. Marys watershed has been designated a watershed in distress as of January 18.
Nutrient management compliance required by livestock operations in watershed
COLUMBUS, OH Due to the unprecedented harmful algal blooms of 2009 and 2010, the Grand Lake St. Marys watershed has been designated a watershed in distress as of January 18, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR).

A recent analysis, conducted by ODNRs Division of Soil and Water Resources, concluded that the Grand Lake St. Marys (GLSM) watershed met the criteria for designation as a watershed in distress, as defined in Ohio Administrative Code 1501:15-5-20.

The study looked at a number of issues, such as:

* Is the watershed listed as impaired by nutrients from agricultural sources, according to the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency?
* Does the watershed exhibit conditions that can affect public health?
* Is there a threat or presence of contaminants in a public drinking water source or recreational body of water?
* Do unacceptable nuisance conditions exist including the depletion of dissolved oxygen resulting in impacts to aquatic life?

The analysis report was submitted to the seven-member Ohio Soil and Water Conservation Commission for review on January 18. The members unanimously voted to support the designation.

The new designation requires additional regulations for livestock operations and manure management within a distressed watershed. Specifically, all livestock operations and manure applicators handling greater than 350 tons and/or 100,000 gallons of manure per year must immediately begin following U.S. Department of Agriculture, Natural Resource Conservation Service standards for land application.

Nutrient management plans must be submitted to the Division of Soil and Water Resources; affected operations will be required to conform to the management plans by December 15, 2012. The rules also restrict winter application of manure beginning January 19, 2013.

The GLSM watershed encompasses 59,160 acres across Mercer and Auglaize counties in western Ohio. Not only is it a popular recreational lake, but Grand Lake St. Marys serves as a community drinking water source.

Over the years, the lake has become increasingly enriched by phosphates and nitrates from a number of man-made and natural sources. These nutrients have contributed to the decline of the water quality and the occurrence of harmful algal blooms.

To learn more about the GLSM watershed designation or nutrient management programs, visit ohiodnr.com or call (614) 265-6610. Mercer County residents may also call the Mercer Soil and Water Conservation District at (419) 586-3289 and Auglaize County residents may call the Auglaize Soil and Water Conservation District at (419) 738-4016 for assistance and further information.


----------



## JOJOFLY

My grandparents (now Uncle owns)has a cottage at Behms-I learned to fish there(1968),i'm orginally from Dayton and those memories along w/as I got older Duck&goose hunting there ,the reports sadden me.That Lake has changed so much,and grown-I prefer to keeping the memories of young when there would be maybe 10 boats on the entire lake and I would take my cane pole to the channel w/my grandma and catch crappie all day.


----------



## zaraspook

puterdude said:


> ODNR Designates Grand Lake St. Marys Watershed Distressed
> Jan 20
> 
> Written by: news editor
> 1/20/2011 1:00 AM
> Due to the unprecedented harmful algal blooms of 2009 and 2010, the Grand Lake St. Marys watershed has been designated a watershed in distress as of January 18.
> Nutrient management compliance required by livestock operations in watershed
> COLUMBUS, OH Due to the unprecedented harmful algal blooms of 2009 and 2010, the Grand Lake St. Marys watershed has been designated a watershed in distress as of January 18, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR).
> 
> A recent analysis, conducted by ODNRs Division of Soil and Water Resources, concluded that the Grand Lake St. Marys (GLSM) watershed met the criteria for designation as a watershed in distress, as defined in Ohio Administrative Code 1501:15-5-20.


Thanks for the info. These were the regulations they came up with but were held-up until the Soil and Water Commission met on Jan 18th and officially declared GLSM "distressed". Hadn't heard the results of meeting until your post. Disappointing the regs take 2 years to fully go into effect, but I'm thankful for the actions and it's a welcome forward for the lake's recovery.

A bit of irony.......one of last year's federal grants for GLSM from the federal government required the lake/watershed to be declared as distressed, or maybe it was a disaster area. The fed gov't apparently declared GLSM a disaster area then, but the state didn't officially declare until this week? Go figure.


----------



## puterdude

I really feel for the area.I couldn't imagine having that happen in my own back yard.It'll be decades before that beautiful lake returns to some form of normalcy. Darn shame they gave a 1 or 2 year grace period,it should have been started TODAY!


----------



## socdad

As I have said before these problems are nothing new  Not sure if anyone has referred to a study of GLSM titled The Restoration of a Canal Lake complied by Joanna E. Vlllies (ODNR) a long while back  (Richard F. Celeste, Governor)

One of the studies observations  

Erosion and Sediment Problems - 1st Priority

http://www.lakeimprovement.com/sites/default/files/GLSM-The_Restoration_of_a_Canal_Lake_1.PDF


----------



## zaraspook

socdad said:


> As I have said before these problems are nothing new  Not sure if anyone has referred to a study of GLSM titled The Restoration of a Canal Lake complied by Joanna E. Vlllies (ODNR) a long while back  (Richard F. Celeste, Governor)
> 
> One of the studies observations
> 
> Erosion and Sediment Problems - 1st Priority
> 
> http://www.lakeimprovement.com/sites/default/files/GLSM-The_Restoration_of_a_Canal_Lake_1.PDF


socdad...............thanks for sharing the "restoration plan". I did not critically read it, but clearly it shows they had it pretty much right in 1979. A lot of the projects were completed, such as shore line improvements, Windy Point extensions, recreational facilities. Dredging was active for years but fell off.........I don't know why. 

The agricultural recommendations are the projects with fewest results/progress. They recognized the ag nutrients were a problem, and that was before the addition of large livestock operations now in the watershed. It says 85%+ of bad stuff comes from farm fields or farm animals (same as the studies today). Today too many of the fields still lack buffers the plan called for. There are still 100's of acres with zero buffer to adjacent creeks in the watershed..........and here we are 30+ years later. Human waste/septic isn't an issue - the Army corp completed sewers around the lake years ago.

For 30 years we've treated the results from the pollutants, but never stopped the pollutants(nitrates/phosphorus) from entering the lake. The ag community hasn't stepped up voluntarily, now they have more regulations, though weak regulations. Some farmers get it, but a few butt-heads ruin it for all. I hope it doesn't take another 30 years for the farm/livestock community to get it right.


----------



## zaraspook

The ODNR Soil and Water commission voted unanimously at Jan 18 meeting to declare the Grand Lake St Marys watershed "distressed". The link to their report is below. Many photos included.....most of you have seen them before, but painful for me to revisit those events. Absolutely disgusting we've allowed this to happen. 

Like socdad said, "this isn't new". This report confirms the validity of the 1979 restoration plan. The main weakness in the 1979 plan was it did not foresee a tripling of the watershed's animal population. Farmers in the area may have improved their practices, but not to the level to handle 3 times the volume of manure.

Report is here but you should wait 1/2 hour after eating to view the report. www.dnr.state.oh.us/portals/12/wate..._Designation_Analysis_Grand_Lake_St_Marys.pdf


----------



## zaraspook

Ohio DNR continues discounts for Grand Lake St Marys for camping, boat docks, etc.....here's official announcement:

Effective February 1 to September 1, 2011, fees for campsites, getaway rentals, shelter house rentals, and seasonal state-operated docks at Grand Lake St. Marys State Park will be discounted by 50% (excluding May 27-29 and July 1-4 for campsites & getaway rentals)  For existing reservations, discounts will be applied at the time of arrival  Other discounts will not apply 


----------



## yonderfishin

zaraspook said:


> Ohio DNR continues discounts for Grand Lake St Marys for camping, boat docks, etc.....here's official announcement:
> 
> Effective February 1 to September 1, 2011, fees for campsites, getaway rentals, shelter house rentals, and seasonal state-operated docks at Grand Lake St. Marys State Park will be discounted by 50% (excluding May 27-29 and July 1-4 for campsites & getaway rentals)  For existing reservations, discounts will be applied at the time of arrival  Other discounts will not apply 


Even at a 50% discount , if the lake is still dead and nasty then who is gonna go there ? Im wondering if it wouldnt be better to just close everything down for a few years. Who wants to vacation or play at a lake where they cant swim or fish ?


----------



## zaraspook

yonderfishin said:


> Even at a 50% discount , if the lake is still dead and nasty then who is gonna go there ? Im wondering if it wouldnt be better to just close everything down for a few years. Who wants to vacation or play at a lake where they cant swim or fish ?


Very true.......discount is meaningless if the lake/water is scum. Still we appreciate the effort by the ODNR. Best promotion would be a summer without algae blooms, but it will take years without blooms to win back boaters and fishermen.

For the record there is no ban on fishing. You can fish all you want and the fishing was very good in 2010. The ban is against eating your catch, at least until completion of toxin study. Also, the water contact ban was lifted months ago, therefore swimming is ok if the cold water doesn't kill you. But recent history suggests lake will be toxin dangerous by mid-June. We hope not.


----------



## puterdude

Good News for a while at least,,,,Eat away Guys!


Grand Lake St. Marys Fish Tissue Study Shows No Microcystin In Samples
Feb 7

Written by: news editor
Monday, February 07, 2011 

&#65279;The &#8220;do not eat&#8221; fish consumption advisory for Grand Lake St. Marys has been removed after an analysis showed no microcystin in fish from samples collected in the lake last fall.

The current results are for fish collected by Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) personnel in October 2010. Twenty-three tissue samples from four species, largemouth bass, bluegill, black crappie and channel catfish, were collected and sent to a lab for analysis.

Plans are to collect and analyze more fish from Grand Lake St. Marys or other state owned lakes with blue-green algae blooms to give state officials a complete picture of toxin levels in fish tissue as microcystin levels fluctuate during the year. The &#8220;do not eat&#8221; advisory was a precaution until actual fish-tissue data was available.

Ohio EPA partners with the Ohio Department of Health and ODNR to develop consumption advisories for fish caught in Ohio. Ohio EPA, ODNR and the Ohio Department of Agriculture continue to work together to implement components of the state action plan to restore the lake.


----------



## zaraspook

puterdude said:


> Good News for a while at least,,,,Eat away Guys!
> 
> 
> Grand Lake St. Marys Fish Tissue Study Shows No Microcystin In Samples
> Feb 7
> 
> Written by: news editor
> Monday, February 07, 2011
> 
> &#65279;The &#8220;do not eat&#8221; fish consumption advisory for Grand Lake St. Marys has been removed after an analysis showed no microcystin in fish from samples collected in the lake last fall.
> 
> The current results are for fish collected by Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) personnel in October 2010. Twenty-three tissue samples from four species, largemouth bass, bluegill, black crappie and channel catfish, were collected and sent to a lab for analysis.


Very good news and findings are consistent with studies previously done elsewhere!

So we have the State actively engaged with restoration of the lake. The local residents and businesses are excited. Lake improvement Association is pushing a positive agenda. And the farmers claim to be supportive of new manure handling (#1 contributor to lake phosphorus problems) regulations approved 2 weeks ago. Then why is it that one butt-head farmer was spreading manure yesterday (Sunday 2-6) on his field at 11:30 am in the morning?????????

I personally observed the a-hole spreading crap on top of a virgin, snow covered field, obviously frozen. As I understand the new regulations, the ba_tard is breaking no law, that the no poop rule is purely voluntary until 2012 (sure hope I'm wrong with effective date). I returned 4 hours later, it's actually portions of 2 fields that were treated. My guess is a total 20+ acres in each field. This guy is either blatantly defiant, insanely insensitive, or an idiot of the highest magnitude. His farm borders the south side of Clover Four road and is west of county road 716A and east of Goetsxxxxx (something or other). It's clearly in GLSM's watershed, perhaps 1.5 miles from the lake. How do we get the appropriate authorities on this guy's case and make his life as miserable as possible? This one jerk reflects very poorly on the farming community in the watershed!


----------



## Mushijobah

Locate it on google maps. Right click the farm or house and it should show the address. Look address up on county auditor website and you get an owner, owner's address, sometimes you can get the owner's phone number on zabasearch.com

good luck


----------



## sploosh56

Hopefully it'll be made mandatory, statewide, that vegetation strips must be allowed to grow around all river, creek, and ditch banks to help reduce the soil runoff as well. I would love to see that put in place


----------



## fishintechnician

sploosh56 said:


> Hopefully it'll be made mandatory, statewide, that vegetation strips must be allowed to grow around all river, creek, and ditch banks to help reduce the soil runoff as well. I would love to see that put in place


this would beneifte ohios wildlife in general as well as the watersheds and the farmers who practice it. It is truely a win win


----------



## zaraspook

fishintechnician said:


> this would beneifte ohios wildlife in general as well as the watersheds and the farmers who practice it. It is truely a win win


fishintecnician.........Is this approach to manure management similar to equipment and the process avs is exploring? Link is www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14099


----------



## sploosh56

Like this


http://www.oh.nrcs.usda.gov/programs/lake_erie_buffer/riparian.html

Combination of grass and trees.

Take a drive along the rivers around the area. You'll notice that some places the river bank is very high and other areas where the fields literally run into the water. The entire volume of dirt has washed into the river over time.


----------



## zaraspook

Gotta be someone in this forum who can provide a sensible explanation. Without rehashing that 85% of phosphorus, the #1 algae contributor, comes from agricultural manure. Shouldn't be a need to debate that spreading manure on frozen fields is a bad practice..........it's nearly automatic that higher percentages of frozen field poop application runs off into creeks and continues downstream into the Grand Lake St Mary's. And didn't our state just pass regulations to ban application of manure on frozen fields? And remember, the farmers in the Grand Lake watershed say they aren't the problem, they are falsely accused and not the bad guys.

Just passing thru the county roads in the watershed for 10 minutes today (Mon) and saw four more fields with fresh manure application. These farms are all within a mile and half of lake, and one less than 3/4 mile. And the guy I saw spreading poop on Sunday 2-6, he's doubled down, now has twice the acreage manure covered than on the 6th.

I wasn't on hunting trip, didn't go out of my way to find offenders, if I had I'm sure there would be numerous others ignoring the lake's problems while they spin more crap like "we aren't the problem". Wonder how they'd react if this summer, when the algae blooms, spreads toxins throughout the lake, that we pump the wrenching lake water onto their fields, into the drinking water for their animals, and do to them what they do to our lake? This doesn't stop until they have to pay a price higher than the personal gain for pushing the problems onto others. We'll spend millions to clean up the problems these farmers create, but not hold them accountable for ruining our lake? This is insane!


----------



## fishwhacker

In the Daily Standard today on the front page they had pictures of Manure going down the local creeks. They even printed in there that this particular farmer had been to court and fined a wooping $250 fine. That probably doesnt even cover the fuel it would take to haul the manure to properly dispose of it. I love GLSM and will continue to fish it often but how can we expect them from a business standpoint to spend more money to do the right thing than to dump it on there fields and pay the petty little fines. Yes I would hope that ethics and doing the right thing trumps the bottom line but when the gap is as large as it is now it makes it harder for them to do the right thing. I work with the people in the GLSM area the farmers are tired of getting a bad rap but they also have the mindset who cares about the millions of dollars the lake brings in if it takes the billion dollar farm industry away from the area. I am not a farmer and do not defend what they are doing to the lake I'm just expressing a view from a business standpoint. I really hope everyone pulls together and keep the farm industry as well as improving the lake i continue to love and fish on.


----------



## spfldbassguy

zaraspook said:


> Gotta be someone in this forum who can provide a sensible explanation. Without rehashing that 85% of phosphorus, the #1 algae contributor, comes from agricultural manure. Shouldn't be a need to debate that spreading manure on frozen fields is a bad practice..........it's nearly automatic that higher percentages of frozen field poop application runs off into creeks and continues downstream into the Grand Lake St Mary's. And didn't our state just pass regulations to ban application of manure on frozen fields? And remember, the farmers in the Grand Lake watershed say they aren't the problem, they are falsely accused and not the bad guys.
> 
> Just passing thru the county roads in the watershed for 10 minutes today (Mon) and saw four more fields with fresh manure application. These farms are all within a mile and half of lake, and one less than 3/4 mile. And the guy I saw spreading poop on Sunday 2-6, he's doubled down, now has twice the acreage manure covered than on the 6th.
> 
> I wasn't on hunting trip, didn't go out of my way to find offenders, if I had I'm sure there would be numerous others ignoring the lake's problems while they spin more crap like "we aren't the problem". Wonder how they'd react if this summer, when the algae blooms, spreads toxins throughout the lake, that we pump the wrenching lake water onto their fields, into the drinking water for their animals, and do to them what they do to our lake? This doesn't stop until they have to pay a price higher than the personal gain for pushing the problems onto others. We'll spend millions to clean up the problems these farmers create, but not hold them accountable for ruining our lake? This is insane!


The reason the farmers who continue to spread poop onto frozen fields keep doing it is really simple,they don't give a rats ass about anyone or anything other than themselves and the money they make. You'd have to be the most inconsiderate,moronic,selfish,dumb person in the world if you actually thought putting poop on top of frozen ground is a good practice. I mean for Christs sake,how is that benefical at all? Maybe they don't know what happens to poop that's on top of frozen snow and dirt when everything starts to thaw out,they might have missed that part of science class in school.

I bet if you did actually go out looking for more idiotic farmers spreading poop onto frozen ground you'd probably find more doing so and would probably have your brain explode inside your head from witnessing all the madness.

Now there's an idea,give them the water back after the toxins take over in summer and see how well they like it. My guess is after they got sick ,their crops possibly ruined and their live stock getting sick or dying they'd have a change of heart and quit the insanity.

If I could I would impose the no poop spreading onto frozen fields today and any goofball farmer that decided their profits was more important I'd fine them. First offense $100,000,second offense $500,000,and if there was a third offense by the same farmer that fine would be $1,000,000. Maybe just maybe there'd only be the one moron that got hit with the first fine but I guarantee there wouldn't be anyone getting fined. With those steep fines and if there was alot of them by chance then atleast the state could recoup some of the cost to fix the lake.


----------



## spfldbassguy

sploosh56 said:


> Hopefully it'll be made mandatory, statewide, that vegetation strips must be allowed to grow around all river, creek, and ditch banks to help reduce the soil runoff as well. I would love to see that put in place


Now that'd be a good idea if it could actually be allowed to be put into place. It's all pluses and no minuses.


----------



## zaraspook

Here's the Celina Daily Standard new story link. If this is the mindset of our agricultural people, there is no hope. The guy acknowledged he was aware it is not recommended to to spread manure on frozen ground but "just wanted to get the manure out of the cow yard". Please note - this guy is _*not*_ in the Grand Lake watershed so maybe his foul is a tiny bit less flagrant. Wonder what the lame excuse is for farmer's in the watershed who are spreading poop on frozen fields?

Newspaper link mentioned by fishwhacker www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14163

Our Gov said he won't allow a bad apple or two to ruin it for farmers who follow rules. Looking more and more like it's a bushel full of bad apples. Hey agricultural community........how about getting with the program?


----------



## sploosh56

spfldbassguy said:


> Now that'd be a good idea if it could actually be allowed to be put into place. It's all pluses and no minuses.


It's such a simple solution


----------



## zaraspook

Recall last spring all the hoopla concerning installation of Airy Gators and sediment collectors at GLSM? The link below thru the Lake Improvement Associations website goes to a report from the Battelle Institute regarding performance of the Airy Gator program. It's lengthy, concludes some positive results, and recommends "next steps" . A few of the recommendations are 1) temporary injector systems in the creeks to treat the tributaries with alum before the phosphorus from farms makes it to the lake....start treatments now! 2) Prepare a plan for surface spraying the lake one time to deal with the phosphorus issue and avoid multi-year treatments and impact to sediments. 3) stock gamefish, shellfish, and zooplankton. 

There are more recommendations (pages 26-27 of the 45 page pdf file). Lots of data in it and explanations that are beyond easy comprehension. Too much for me to digest - maybe someone else can provide interpretation to us who just like to fish. Thank you Lake Improvement Association for your collective fine work..
www.lakeimprovement.com/sites/default/files/battellegrandlakeassessment.pdf


----------



## spfldbassguy

sploosh56 said:


> It's such a simple solution


You know what's weird about simple solutions,sometimes they're the hardest things for people to comprehend. For some reason there seems to be alot of people that feel the need to take a problem that has simple solutions to them and make matters worse by overcomplicating things.

The run off of manure from farm fields seems to be the biggest problem. The solution to that is to have the farmers not spread it onto frozen fields and to have buffer zones inbetween their fields and the creeks,streams,rivers that feed into GLSM. Pretty simple solutions to the problem. The farmers don't want to take responsibility for what their actions are doing to the lake so they point their fingers at everything else. By doing that they get people who don't pay much attention to what's really going on looking in 500 different directions. Then those people offer 1,000 "solutions" to the problem without treating the root cause of it all. There's how simple solutions get lost in all the insanity. Someone whether it be from the state or community needs to put their foot down on all the farmers who want to continue to destroy the lake.


----------



## zaraspook

Among the *recommendations of The Battelle Institute report on Grand Lake, was to stock gamefish*, shellfish, and zooplankton. The Columbus dispatch quotes a DNR guy that no saugeye are planned to be stocked in Grand Lake this year. So we spend $100,000's to dredge, apply alum, put in sediment collectors and Airy Gators and we decide not to follow Battelle's recommendation to stock fingerling gamefish (saugeye)? A large portion of the saugeye and other fish stocked in Ohio's lakes are raised where? Yep, they are grown in the St. Mary's fish hatcheries on the east end of the lake.

How about sparing us a few thousand fingerling saugeye.............just toss a few buckets of them across the road into the lake. We'll have a cleaner lake but no fishermen if we don't have fish to catch.

Here's quote by DNR "We do not have that location on the list this year for stocking with saugeyes," said Ray Petering, an acting assistant chief of the wildlife division and the executive administrator of fishery management and research.
Saugeyes, particularly a hybrid strain earmarked for Grand Lake St. Marys, don't reproduce, meaning once previously placed stocks of these popular fish are gone there will be no replenishment in the foreseeable future."

Here's link http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...ted-lake-could-lose-fish-species.html?sid=101


----------



## zaraspook

Good news/bad news.............The State moves forward with plans for a large scale alum treatment for GLSM. Celina Daily standard reports ODNR is applying for $5 mil, a loan from the Ohio EPA's water pollution control fund. Link is www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14239 . That's the good news.

Bad news is the the combination of ice/snow melt and the heavy rains of Sunday night/Monday morning, created severe flooding at GLSM. Run-off into the lake is excessive, flooding at levels unseen in 35 years, much flowing from the water shed highly populated by livestock operations. Since manure management regulations are largely voluntary until 2013, at least a handful of farmers were spreading manure on FROZEN fields throughout the watershed. Manure on frozen tundra does not stay where spread when hit with heavy rains and flooding. It flows to creeks and to the lake. Most of the poop they spread all during the month of Feb, is now in GLSM, potentially compounding the algae problems of the last 2 summers.

You farmers who had too much manure to store from too many animals for your operation solved your problem by spreading it despite knowing the practice is a bad one for the lake. Unfortunately, you solved it by contributing to GLSM problems at the expense of every Ohio tax payer. It's too late for this year, but the new manure regulations must go into effect NOW, not 2013. The lake and taxpayers cannot afford your bad practices which negate/cancel out our efforts and expense to clean the lake.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Seems like the livestock farmers would care more about the public relations end effect than they do; but apparently not. And understand the desire to help the lake with alum treatments SHORT TERM; the local businesses (that haven`t been forced to close yet) are in need of SOME kind of help this yr, but just have to wonder how much LONG TERM fix dredging could be done with the $5 million...untill the large scale dredging/ deepening of the lake is done the problems of the boats churning the hyper phosphate enriched shallow bottom up constantly simply isn`t corrected. Restoring 8- 10 fow depths and establishing and RIGOROUSLY enforcing "NO WAKE " zones in the shallow/ shoreline areas are still the ONLY realistic LONG TERM hopes the lake has. Dredge, baby, dredge !!!


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Seems like the livestock farmers would care more about the public relations end effect than they do; but apparently not. And understand the desire to help the lake with alum treatments SHORT TERM; the local businesses (that haven`t been forced to close yet) are in need of SOME kind of help this yr, but just have to wonder how much LONG TERM fix dredging could be done with the $5 million...untill the large scale dredging/ deepening of the lake is done the problems of the boats churning the hyper phosphate enriched shallow bottom up constantly simply isn`t corrected. Restoring 8- 10 fow depths and establishing and RIGOROUSLY enforcing "NO WAKE " zones in the shallow/ shoreline areas are still the ONLY realistic LONG TERM hopes the lake has. Dredge, baby, dredge !!!


You make some great points, Lowell. I could be wrong but I believe the State commitment calls for 3 dredges running this year, plus the alum treatment. But as long as the agricultural guys keep pumping nutrients into the lake, we take 2 steps backwards for every 3 steps forward.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

So long as they have permission from the local/ state gov`t to do so....could organize a send a video to the local TV station campaign; public ridicule sometimes has a greater effect than some well meant but barely enforced ordinance. Some of the farmers doing this have neighbors/ customers...GOOD steward of the land, publicly compare the difference. MANY persons DO care about the lake, especially when THEIR tax dollars are PAYING to fix some nameless farmers using Grand Lake Saint Marys as their livestocks` septic tank...


----------



## spfldbassguy

zaraspook said:


> Bad news is the the combination of ice/snow melt and the heavy rains of Sunday night/Monday morning, created severe flooding at GLSM. Run-off into the lake is excessive, flooding at levels unseen in 35 years, much flowing from the water shed highly populated by livestock operations. Since manure management regulations are largely voluntary until 2013, at least a handful of farmers were spreading manure on FROZEN fields throughout the watershed. Manure on frozen tundra does not stay where spread when hit with heavy rains and flooding. It flows to creeks and to the lake. Most of the poop they spread all during the month of Feb, is now in GLSM, potentially compounding the algae problems of the last 2 summers.
> 
> You farmers who had too much manure to store from too many animals for your operation solved your problem by spreading it despite knowing the practice is a bad one for the lake. Unfortunately, you solved it by contributing to GLSM problems at the expense of every Ohio tax payer. It's too late for this year, but the new manure regulations must go into effect NOW, not 2013. The lake and taxpayers cannot afford your bad practices which negate/cancel out our efforts and expense to clean the lake.


 I hate to say this but until somebody actually dies from the toxic water problem up there there probably won't be any real action done to stop and cure the problem. It seems until there's a loss of human life alot of people just don't care. I could be wrong for saying that but that's the way I've seen things happen in my short life here on this earth.


----------



## zaraspook

WHIO Channel 7 video from Weds evening regarding "potentially" bacteria contaminated flood waters due to manure runoff. Residents with flooding advised to avoid contact with flooded areas.

My opinion.....at a minimum with new rains coming, GLSM area needs a total suspension of manure spreading, for at least a temporary period.

www.whiotv.com/video/27060577/index.html


----------



## KWaller

Has there been much fish kill because of all this? Will thiss lake even be worth fishin on in May for crappies? 
Thanks


----------



## killingtime

crappie fishing will be good. they had alot of walleye die last summer when the algae was in full bloom. i used to fish it alot when i lived close to the lake. my friends that live up there says the crappie fishing is good but not like it was at one time.


----------



## KWaller

Ok thanks. we never thouught there werre many crappies there, we must just suck there. lol


----------



## zaraspook

KWaller said:


> Has there been much fish kill because of all this? Will thiss lake even be worth fishin on in May for crappies?
> Thanks


Last Oct thru Dec 4th crappie fishing at GLSM was very enjoyable. I fished one day every weekend, usually only 2-3 hours. Catch ranged from 23-45 crappies each outing. Dec 4th was last time I could fish before ice took over the channels........caught 24 that day. The fall fish, however, ran smaller than the crappies caught last spring. High percentage of spring fish were 10-11" with occasional 12+. Bulk of fall fish were 7-8". Don't know if fish kill had anything to do with lesser size......rarely saw crappies as fatalities in any of fish kills.

Don't wait until May to fish GLSM.......it's shallow and warms faster than most other lakes. Timing for GLSM is similar to what you see at farm ponds. April will be productive.


----------



## socdad

Im glad to hear that fishing the outlook is improving; lack of fishing pressure over the last couple of years would do that for most lakes. However with the amount of untreated animal waste running off into the lake for the life of me I can not figure out why anyone would want to fish there?


----------



## zaraspook

socdad said:


> Im glad to hear that fishing the outlook is improving; lack of fishing pressure over the last couple of years would do that for most lakes. However with the amount of untreated animal waste running off into the lake for the life of me I can not figure out why anyone would want to fish there?


socdad.............where have you been? The farmers and livestock operations say they aren't the problem. They say they don't contribute phosphorus to the lake. Since that group holds 90%+ of the acreage in the watershed, and they don't contribute untreated animal waste to the streams, phosphorous in GLSM must be a local legend. Maybe manure in the lake is part of a government conspiracy? Maybe it's a cover-up, really the actions of aliens dumping spacecraft engine waste into the lake? We all know most aliens are green....could that explain the rich green color of the algae?

Seriously, virtually every body of water in the state has contamination and some level of fish consumption advisory, with mercury or pcb's the normal contaminants. Most fishermen wouldn't consider consuming the water they fish in, but they do fish the lake or stream. I fish GLSM because I don't think it's dangerous and I don't drink the water. When EPA data says the lake is dangerous, I don't fish. If I see oncoming cars, I don't cross my street. No cars, I'm OK to venture out. 

It also helps that we catch fish. If GLSM didn't produce fish, I'd go elsewhere and I'd join the crowd to to fill in the lake. Local businesses don't appreciate the lack of fishing pressure, but the ones who do fish GLSM pretty much have our own private lake....no congestion and competition like at CJ, CC, Indian, blah, blah blah.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, I find your aliens polluting the lake theory fascinating; I`ll bet they have adopted the disguise of local livestock and crop farmers to hide their evil schemes, first GLSM, then the world...or it`s that little green one eyed guy on Sponge Bob Square Pants! You KNOW what HE`s always saying...seriously, for the time being, get what use you can out of the lake; can`t blame you. Can`t imagine the local gov`t persons would lie about the safety of eating the fish, just be aware of when they issue the advisories. Have they ACTUALLY started dredging yet? Pray that if not then @#$% SOON; they are in a race with the heat of the summer to get as much depth back into the lake as possible as FAST as possible...it will be a LONG battle, but if they actually get 3 dredges going fulltime believe it CAN be done...it would be great in 5 or 6 yrs to have a BETTER lake than what was there in the 80`s and early 90`s...hang in there...and keep us informed. Are you a member of the group trying to help the lake? Do you know anyone with a pilot`s license? Does anyone in the group have one? Don`t think that that group REALIZES the POWER of aerial reconesence; you simply CANNOT hide from "the eye in the sky"...slaved to modern GPS, it is a VERY POWERFUL WEAPON that WILL stand up in a court of law. It WILL cause large FINES, LEGAL PENALTIES, visits from the EPA, ect, ect, ect, when the time comes, soon...someone might want to make the group AWARE of this...(EVIL laughter sound effect here...)


----------



## socdad

zaraspook  to each their own, hope the water quality at GLSM continues to improve. I simply chose not to fish that particular body of water  havent for years.


----------



## KWaller

Well I would but I fish the buckeye crappie challenge thts wen they set it. I believe its may 30 this year 



zaraspook said:


> Last Oct thru Dec 4th crappie fishing at GLSM was very enjoyable. I fished one day every weekend, usually only 2-3 hours. Catch ranged from 23-45 crappies each outing. Dec 4th was last time I could fish before ice took over the channels........caught 24 that day. The fall fish, however, ran smaller than the crappies caught last spring. High percentage of spring fish were 10-11" with occasional 12+. Bulk of fall fish were 7-8". Don't know if fish kill had anything to do with lesser size......rarely saw crappies as fatalities in any of fish kills.
> 
> Don't wait until May to fish GLSM.......it's shallow and warms faster than most other lakes. Timing for GLSM is similar to what you see at farm ponds. April will be productive.




_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Zaraspoon, I find your aliens polluting the lake theory fascinating; Can`t imagine the local gov`t persons would lie about the safety of eating the fish, just be aware of when they issue the advisories. Have they ACTUALLY started dredging yet?


No dredging yet. As of last weekend 1/2 the main lake still ice covered. Channels were about 50% open water. Within a few days ice should not be an obstacle but no word yet on when dredging will begin.


----------



## zaraspook

socdad said:


> zaraspook  to each their own, hope the water quality at GLSM continues to improve. I simply chose not to fish that particular body of water  havent for years.


socdad...........from previous posts I know you aren't a fan of GLSM. I agree with you "to each his own", respect your viewpoint, and appreciate observations you contribute. We agree on more than we disagree. 

With the flooding now at GLSM and plenty of runoff coming from those manure laden fields, I fear the stage is set for the worst algae summer yet at GLSM. Last spring lake's clarity was amazing, but we had no winter and spring heavy precipitation. Once the rains came in May-June with lots of runoff, the lake turned as soon as hot weather arrived in mid-June. Gotta get my fishing in before the worm turns.


----------



## spfldbassguy

zaraspook said:


> With the flooding now at GLSM and plenty of runoff coming from those manure laden fields, I fear the stage is set for the worst algae summer yet at GLSM. Last spring lake's clarity was amazing, but we had no winter and spring heavy precipitation. Once the rains came in May-June with lots of runoff, the lake turned as soon as hot weather arrived in mid-June. Gotta get my fishing in before the worm turns.


I think you may be correct in your thinking on what could be in store for GLSM this summer. It appears that all the ingredients are in place for the worse algae plagued summer yet. Yeah you better get all your fishing in before it happens.


----------



## zaraspook

spfldbassguy said:


> I think you may be correct in your thinking on what could be in store for GLSM this summer. It appears that all the ingredients are in place for the worse algae plagued summer yet. Yeah you better get all your fishing in before it happens.


If I can keep GLSM water temps down, algae will have tougher time growing this summer. I think I'll buy an ice machine.......make ice and dump it into lake for cooling. For a 13,000 acre lake, how big an ice machine will I need to do the trick? On 2nd thought, I'd better get my fishing in now to June......


----------



## socdad

There was a time GLSM was about the only lake I fished, absolutely loved fishing the channels around windy point in the spring for crappie, and the flats near the state boat ramp for perch in the fall. Maybe Im splitting hairs but its not the lake I am not a fan of  it is the conditions. Much like Lake Erie it took a long time to screw it up and will take a long time to repair the damage. Unfortunately with the unwillingness of some of the local agricultural community to do their part it will take a bit longer.
zaraspook  Drop me a note if conditions at GLSM get to the point you cant get your fishing fix up north, we can jump in my boat and do a day at CJ


----------



## Lowell H Turner

CJ should have a "good" year for fishing, would like to meet you, sir. And if you know any of the Lake Improvement Commity, pass the "suggestion" as far as the "eye in the sky' photography log; with modern photography and various sensers (including phosphate detection and travel tracking, would be VERY VALUEABLE (and UNDENIABLE) evidence in a not so future class action lawsuit/ and /or state charges with possible Federal entanglements...for drama could call it the " Poopy Patrol"; large amounts of phosphates ARE EASILY detectable with special filters and films, basically similar to fall marjiana patrols. Apparently bacteria that consume it put off various gasses which are readily detectable in unhealthy concentrations. Also could monitor "improvement"/ construction of LEGAL and REQUIRED containment and/ or storage/ storage ponds for the purpose of said livestock`s liquid and semi solid leftovers for mega- livestock farming. You simply cannot effectively hide from modern sensers. And they will tell the simple truth...


----------



## Lowell H Turner

What`s next Intimidator? A safe, stable fishing platform? Hope you are ready to get out soon to REALLY pound the local fish population...and we really MUST find you a waterproof shatterproof rockproof (GPS slaved) Kevlar laynard equipted camera...something to last atleast 3 weeks...


----------



## auglaizewader

New information on the lake's alum project at this link

http://www.theeveningleader.com/content/view/336066/1/


----------



## zaraspook

My first bass for 2011.........caught at approx 5:20PM yesterday 3-8-11. Fish was a hair under 16" and caught on a chartreuse jig-head with a 7" green pumpkin Gulp turtleback worm. The fish barely tapped the worm, gently changing the direction of my line. It was my 2nd cast and the bait was absolutely inhaled.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Recieved an e-mail from a gentleman with the Lake Improvement Commity, he shared some information that found very interesting; apparently the group IS using satelite technology to "monitor" the suspected sources of the livestock waste and/ or agricultural runoff and will continue to upto and beyond the cut off date...(HINT!! HINT!!). Hiding anything from modern aerial sensors/ cameras is challenging, to say the least! Sure can`t await the 8X10 glossy color photographs in the local newspapers and court rooms....


----------



## zaraspook

socdad said:


> There was a time GLSM was about the only lake I fished, absolutely loved fishing the channels around windy point in the spring for crappie, and the flats near the state boat ramp for perch in the fall. Maybe Im splitting hairs but its not the lake I am not a fan of  it is the conditions. Much like Lake Erie it t
> zaraspook  Drop me a note if conditions at GLSM get to the point you cant get your fishing fix up north, we can jump in my boat and do a day at CJ


socdad............thanks for mighty fine offer from you regarding a day at CJ. Must admit I'm worried plenty about June at GLSM. Runoff into lake from fields has been excessive last 2 weeks. If new regulations had been in effect, runoff would have included *zero* new manure. However, a selfish group of farmers were spreading manure when they knew it put lake at risk.


----------



## zaraspook

Fished about 2 hours today (Saturday)from the bank for crappies.............got the big goose egg, not a single bite. Water is up close to 2 feet but down 6-8 inches from peak. Clarity is zilch, incredibly muddy............no way you could dissolve any more dirt into it. Like elsewhere wind was forceful, I saw waves big enough to surf on the north shores, white caps were abundant and a stark contrast against dark, mud-brown water. 

I noticed a small number of dead shad, 3-4 inch size range, fewer than expected and wondered if any baitfish were in the channels. Tried all my favorite colored tubes to no avail. Shallow, deeper, heavy brush, laydowns, docks, rock/rip-rap, open water...........it wasn't happening this time. Toward the end I did notice a school of shad breaking the surface, usually a good sign in the channels.


----------



## spfldbassguy

zaraspook said:


> If I can keep GLSM water temps down, algae will have tougher time growing this summer. I think I'll buy an ice machine.......make ice and dump it into lake for cooling. For a 13,000 acre lake, how big an ice machine will I need to do the trick? On 2nd thought, I'd better get my fishing in now to June......


Now that was pretty funny,BTW you'd need an ice machine the size ot an 18 wheeler probably to do the trick.


----------



## spfldbassguy

zaraspook said:


> My first bass for 2011.........caught at approx 5:20PM yesterday 3-8-11. Fish was a hair under 16" and caught on a chartreuse jig-head with a 7" green pumpkin Gulp turtleback worm. The fish barely tapped the worm, gently changing the direction of my line. It was my 2nd cast and the bait was absolutely inhaled.


Nice very nice and I'm a little jealous. I've been out a few times now and haven't caught anything other than a cold.


----------



## zaraspook

spfldbassguy said:


> Now that was pretty funny,BTW you'd need an ice machine the size ot an 18 wheeler probably to do the trick.


18-wheeler? I'd bet it would take more. But, maybe 3 or 4 that size would have an impact. Lake is 9 miles long and 3 miles wide. Even though GLSM isn't deep (16 and 18' depths in 2 places I've found), it has a lot of surface area soaking up the June-July penetrating sun rays. Need a lot of ice!


----------



## zaraspook

Article in Celina Daily Standard reports on public meeting regarding GLSM alum treatment. 3 sites on lake will be test sites for 3 different alum treatment recipes......early April application. Major lake treatment to require 45 days beginning some time in May and will focus on middle of the lake. This major treatment is dependent on $5 mil EPA loan and is not enough to treat entire lake.

The nasty algae blooms in 2009 and 2010 occurred in June 14-21 time frame. Disappointing the major treatment doesn't look like it will be completed before typical mid-June bloom.

www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14463


----------



## zaraspook

Second round of GLSM alum trials start today per the Celina Daily Standard. Info and a new idea "Algae Hunters" at this link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14580 

My problem with alum, Airy-Gators, and now Algae Hunters is they do not attack the root cause. All the expense goes for treating the problems caused in the lake by farm manure runoff. Cheapest solution is to stop the pollution to lake by the agricultural community. Industry isn't allowed to dump harmful waste/chemicals into water streams......but it's OK for the farmers to do it?


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Agreed, the ultimate LONG TERM solution after dredging; hopefully the gathering lawyers will be able to help the farmers polluting the lake prove they don`t deserve to be IN business anymore; that their absolute lack of concern for the problem they continue to arrogantly further worsen totally confirms the need for them to no longer be part of the community...the lawyers WILL see to that, and it isn`t like they can say "Problem? WHAT problem?" Their closing up business CAN NOT come soon enough...hopefully the state will do the "imminate domain" thing and restore some wetlands with parts of their former properties...we are all counting down to the end of the acursed "grace (to further pollute the lake SCOTT FREE) period"...


----------



## auglaizewader

I believe that alum is being applied today in the State Park channel. I believe the entire treatment of the lake is an attempt to try to salvage some use of the lake this year and next. The new rules on farms will then be in effect to slow down the supply of new phosphorus into the lake. 

Like someone told me, we have to keep this about updates or it will be locked in no time.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Sir, you are correct. I apologize for my less than discrete comments. FDR`s words about "neutrality" come to mind...simply wish that the `situation` at a lake that once LOVED to fish at would improve much sooner than it actually will...perhaps our great grandkids will be able to safely enjoy the lake one day again.


----------



## zaraspook

GLSM has become our State laboratory. Down the line all the trials to treat algae issues at GLSM will pay dividends at other Ohio waters, and Lake Erie, too. On a big scale and in real time we're watching many concepts in action. We're learning what works, what doesn't, costs, how to apply, and when to apply. The effectiveness of flipping algae, chemical treatment, equipment to oxygenate/aerorate/separate/compress/harvest algae, dredging, sediment collection are all on trial. The tech guys get multiple rounds to tweak, adjust formulations, change, and modify........not in the lab, but "live". 

Let's hope the efforts of "prevention" are adopted and advance as much as treatment concepts.


----------



## zaraspook

Latest Alum trials started Tuesday at GLSM. News story and photo from Celina Daily Standard article about the test site where alum pellets are being applied. Very high tech boat and application method (not really) to be viewed at this link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14593


----------



## zaraspook

The removal of roughfish from GLSM is on. State workers placed nets in the SW area of lake adjacent to the state protected wildlife area on Monday. By Weds, nets yielded 3000 pounds (carp, quillbacks) but also a percentage of fish sacrificed were desirable crappies, perch,sunfish, and channel cats. Netting continues daily. On weekends the nets are opened to allow fish to swim thru. Netted fish go to a rendering facility in Wapak and end up as chicken feed. I didn't find an end date for netting..........looks like it could go on for some time. The volume of fish being removed may cause the lake water level to drop by a foot (I made that up, fellas). More info from Celina Daily Standard story at this link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14661


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, how many dredges are actually going; forgive my relentless inquiries, but DREDGING is the PROIRITY activity that will LONG TERM help the lake FULLY recover; added depth is renewal as well as removing the biological "fuel" to stave off any more algea "blooms"; am ALL for anything that helps the State Park and the local businesses which have taken 2 solid yrs of economic knock outs, but would LOVE to hear that the dredges are roaring 24/ 7...even 1 of them.


----------



## zaraspook

Although I was at GLSM late Saturday and 'til 4PM Sunday, I never made it onto the lake. Wind/waves were bad news. One dredge had been sitting on land at the East Bank less than 2 weeks ago. It's gone from dry-dock......assume it's somewhere on the lake doing what dredges do. Maybe someone else knows if dredges are active and where.


----------



## eyefish22

I watched one move to the mouth of montazuma creek a few weeks back, looked like they were planning to pick up there where they left off last year.


----------



## bigmexican

according to a friend of mine who works for the state park the dredge that was at the east bank marina is now sitting in mouth of the sail boat club.I guess they have to finish the spoil sight before they can get started. I haven't heard how long thats going to take.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Hoping VERY soon they are ALL working hard at it...


----------



## zaraspook

June 3-5th Carp Derby at Grand Lake St. Mary's! Have some fun catching the bugle-mouth variety and win $500 for most fish and $500 for largest fish. $2000 total prize money. Daily prizes $100 for largest fish and most fish, plus under youth fisherman prize categories and cash prizes. Check it out at the Lake Improvement Association web link www.lakeimprovement.com/carp-derby-2011 
Registration fee is only $5 for a whole bunch of fun!


----------



## zaraspook

Ohio DNR posted a video on YouTube regarding alum testing at GLSM, dredging, etc. Link is www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaOIUDWDveo&feature=player_embedded


----------



## KWaller

How has the crappie fishin been up there now? I heard oterbein was shut off, isn't that a canal by the retirement center on the south east side of the lake?

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


----------



## zaraspook

KWaller............Not certain but I don't think Otterbein is shut off. Otterbein wasn't an alum test site this go around, but a portion of it may have been a control site for comparing water test data to treated areas. You have the right location for Otterbein.

Very good crappie bite thru March and first 2-3 weeks of April. I've struggled with crappies last 2 weekends but others report decent catches. Lake is up and muddy especially on south side locations. Better water clarity in northern channels. Size of fish is better now than it was in Mar-early April.


----------



## KWaller

Alright I heard that some man bass fishin snook in one of the closed canals and got caught and they got their boats and gear took away. So what are the areas that are closed called/location?
Thank you,
Kyle

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


----------



## zaraspook

KWaller said:


> Alright I heard that some man bass fishin snook in one of the closed canals and got caught and they got their boats and gear took away. So what are the areas that are closed called/location?
> Thank you,
> Kyle
> 
> _OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


KWaller.........go to the link below for test sites. One site is on the north side of lake at Kozy Marina channel. Lagoon at State Park on East Bank is a test site but boats can't get to lagoon anyway. 3rd site is east channel area of Windy Point. Previously the state said test sites would be closed for 30 days. Alum was applied April 5th, 6th and last site was Windy point on 8th. Those sites should be reopening to boats soon. However, I saw a boat Sunday crappie fishing Windy Point treated.....go figure. 

By the way there is a striking difference in water clarity between test sites and lake. Very obvious at Windy Point to see greenish water to west of Windy Point and stained tea color in channel immediately across the road in east channel.

www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14344


----------



## zaraspook

If there is any doubt about whether or not an area is still sequestered, the area will have a water curtain in place when you enter the channel from the lake. You'd have to go over the water curtain, top of water curtain has flotation devices. You'll easily know.


----------



## zaraspook

Not great news for GLSM. I noticed 2 weekends ago the main lake was looking much more green than I expected for early May. Per the link below from Celina Daily Standard, chlorophyll levels are already extremely high and the verdict is the heavy rains carried in more problem contaminants than last year. The alum treatment will be moved from May to June.....only the center of the lake will be treated where phosphorus concentrations are reported to be higher. 

www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=14868


----------



## zaraspook

A video of "rough fish" removal at Grand Lake St. Marys from WHIO Channel 7 is here.........www.whiotv.com/video/27806242/index.html .


----------



## zaraspook

Grand Lake Improvement Association has a nice article posted which quotes the ODNR deputy director and updates the alum treatment plan, dredging status, and rough fish removal project. The Dep Director explains how spring run-off/high water forced the alum treatment strategy to change. Three dredges are active and a new dredge being ordered. Dredging is scheduled later into the year than normal. Link is here www.lakeimprovement.com/lia-gets-update


----------



## Lowell H Turner

There is long term hope for the lake; with 4 dredges going and the "grace (pollute the lake at will) period soon to expire, am actually hopefull Grand Lake St. Marys WILL recover and become a BETTER fishery than it was 10- 15 yrs ago. The added depth and restoring some wetlands are the main battle...just wish it didn`t have to get as bad as it did. And forgive my happyness, but DREDGE, baby, DREDGE!!! And then DREDGE a little MORE... curious if the farmers are aware of the unblinking "eye in the sky" watching yet? Someone REALLY should tell them...on second thought...guess they`ll find out. Isn`t technology marvelous?


----------



## Lynxis

Algae is back.

No swimming, wading, touching the water.

http://www.whiotv.com/news/27954886/detail.html


----------



## zaraspook

Unfortunately I'm not surprised. I've mentioned in several posts the water color is unusually green for this early in the year. 2010 at this time clarity was wonderful and green just starting. The heavy rains/runoff came late May and early June in 2010 and by mid-June the disaster was in full swing.

This year's rains for last 2 mos brought runoff early, green early, and elevated microcystin counts early. The thresh hold from World Health Organization is 20 ppb, Ohio EPA test data at link below shows the levels creeping up, then a jump last week (evidence of a bloom) to about 22 ppb. Water was into 70's despite lack of sun and the downward spiral accelerates with rising water temp. With several days of sun on the horizon, GLSM coul be on the brink.

I was at GLSM Thurs evening(yesterday) and wasn't aware of any advisories. While fishing, twice I noticed a small patch(1 foot diameter) of floating stuff that resembled lighter colored scum we saw last year. Taking a 2nd look, I really didn't think it was the bad stuff, but hadn't a clue what it might be.

Optimism by local businesses and residents will take a dramatic turn today.
www.epa.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=cu1A73mB4ts=&tabid=4802


----------



## zaraspook

Was at GLSM Friday evening through Sunday. There was definitely a film/scum in south side channels in areas of no water movement. Areas such as boat ramps or the back ends of channels showed scum, nothing like what we saw last year. By Saturday morning the scum was gone and didn't see any for remainder of weekend.

Water temp is 64-68 range, cooler than earlier in the month. Lake is most certainly cloudy green in color with clarity no more than 6". In channels where carp are working to mix in mud, water becomes more pea soup green more common to July time frame.

Local sources indicate the bloom reported Thursday is not last year's blue-green nasty toxin producer. When blooms start a month early, it's tough to find relief from knowing it isn't the really bad stuff.


----------



## zaraspook

Latest EPA water test results for GLSM are at the link below. The World Health Organization standard for microcystins is 20 parts per billion. Three beaches tested were 20 ppb, 22 ppb, and 24 ppb, just above the standard and therefore the advisory/caution issued. 

No way to know what it means going forward. It is alarming since last year (2010) the 20 ppb threshold was not breached until June 28th.

www.epa.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=cu1A73mB4ts=&tabid=4802


----------



## zaraspook

GLSM alum treatment to begin June 2 and run thru June 22. Two boats to apply 2.6 mil gallons of aluminum sulfate and sodium aluminate cocktail to 4900 acres in center of lake. Celina Daily Standard report is at this link http://dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15021 

GLSM is plenty green right now from 3 months of rains and endless runoff. Lake is ripe for a nasty summer. Hoping the treatment is enough to stave off, at least minimize, a major algae event.


----------



## zaraspook

HAB Aquatic is using Grand Lake as a "model" or experiment that could help more than 20 other Ohio lakes with similar algae problems, company officials said.
"This is the largest alum treatment project we've ever done," Holz said. "Actually, I believe it's the largest one anyone's ever done."

More info and photo at this link to Celina Daily Standard newstory www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15121


----------



## archer077

seen this article from whio http://www.whiotv.com/news/28141910/detail.html

look like they took a few out


----------



## Weekender#1

I have to wonder if dumping 3.3 million gallons of a toxic chemical into a lake to reduce a natural enemy is really healthy for the lake in the long run. I understand some can give me 15 good reasons why it is, but 3.3 million gallons. It is all way off track, scares me, we have cancer clusters across the state and millions of dollars are used to investigate, results come back, that nothing can be found, huh. Instead of worrying about the summer trade and dollars coming into the community, what about a long term plan, could be lakes that are man made with no circulation pose problems. Fixing it up could never come, certainly not with our economic problems. It is a sad moment for a state that allowed a river to catch fire, now the largest lake died, we have more brain power than ever working for the state and they never saw it coming. What is next in the progression of this problem.


----------



## zaraspook

archer077 said:


> seen this article from whio http://www.whiotv.com/news/28141910/detail.html
> 
> look like they took a few out


The guy that weighed in 566.6 pounds of carp.......that's almost 12 pounds an hour if he fished all 48 hours of the derby! Amazing.


----------



## zaraspook

The State issued a new set of protocols for Ohio water advisories. The info is detailed in Celina Daily Standard newspaper at link below. Also, alum application at GSLM has been extended into night time hours. Low dissolved oxygen levels in the AM delay the start of alum application until the oxygen levels rise. Rather than starting the application at 6-7 AM, the runs were being delayed until 10-11AM when oxygen levels rose. Lights were added to application boats/barges for dosing after dark.
Article on both topics is at this link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15217


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Weekender#1, understand the need to try ANYTHING to keep the lake economically useful for the local businesses, several of which are teetering on the edge of financial collapse. The major reason the alum was chosen apparently is that dredging enough of the lake deep enough fast enough to "turn the tide" will take too long to IMMEDIATELY "fix" the problem; the SAD thing is although admittedely dredging is slowwer, it IS the ONLY LONG TERM "fix" that will actually help GLSM HEAL ie, A: remove excess phosphate enriched sediments B: deepen the lake so high speed boats and wave action doesn`t churn the phosphate that remains back into a "suspended" state and C: help cool the lake by adding depth; deeper water is always cooler than shallower water. Any idea how many of the dredges are working? How much? The lake took 150+ yrs to get in the shape it`s currently in; it may take 10+ yrs to dredge enough to start to see a significant difference. But believe that adding alum is like piling on clean bandades to a gangrenous wound; ultimately futile...treating the "symptoms" WILL NOT "CURE" the problem...and only 1 thing WILL...


----------



## zaraspook

Ohio State researches 1 million soil samples from Ohio farmlands and concludes state is full of shi*! That pretty much says it all.......read article at this link of the Grand Lake Improvement Association.
www.lakeimprovement.com/ohios-farmland-overloaded-phosphorus


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Keep in mind that due to cost, farmers now use less than 1/2 what they USED to; from the mid `30`s to fairly recently (mid `90`s) the magic answer for marginal farm land was ALWAYS "Well, Billy Joe Bob, dump `bout an extra ton, ton and a half of fertilizer on the back forty, and then a couple inches of manure; that`ll fixer right up" rather than just allowing marginal land to "rest" more frequently or practicing "no till" and alternative crops/ practices...


----------



## zaraspook

When the Ohio EPA put out a "no swim" advisory for GLSM on 5-17 the 3 beaches tested at 20, 22, and 24 ppb for microcystins. World Health standard for recreational activity is 20 ppb. Almost a month later on 6-13 the same beaches tested at 14.4, 12.6, and and 16.8 ppb. 

Nothing scientific about my next statement, but maybe the current alum application is removing enough algae from the water column to dilute algae/microcystin counts? Actually, the beaches all tested below the 20 ppb standard for last 2 test periods. Hate to jump to conclusions since so many variables interact and last year the lake seemingly changed overnight. Would be nice to have a July 4th holiday without a bloom......my fingers are crossed.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Would guess a hot week followed by high winds or very heavy high speed boat traffic that lifts (churns) the phosporous back into suspension would "set the stage", any hot weater after that would unfortunately probabily cause another "bloom"...the boat traffic speeds COULD be controlled; the wind on the other hand...


----------



## zaraspook

GLSM folks are on pins and needles.....very anxious about any sustained period of high temps and sun cooking up another bloom. However, State boys maintain GLSM isn't looking at the same blue-green algae strain that caused the thick mats and stench last year.

As far as boat traffic swirling up the bottom, not real likely. Very little boat traffic on GLSM thanks to last 2 years of ugly stuff and constant advisories. People and boaters have pretty much abandoned the lake. It will take years of problem-free water to regain confidence. A lot of pleasure boaters are gone to other lakes. Many people with weekend places on the lake come up to cut the grass, but leave when done. In my channel under better conditions the stream of boats going out to lake was continuous just 2 years ago. Today you'll see at most 5-6 boats going out over the entire weekend. Boat traffic on the lake is no more than 10% of what it used to be. July 4th weekend will show an uptick, but still only a fraction of normal activity. If we have a bloom before 4th all bets are off.

True.......we can't stop the wind. But at this point ducks and geese create more waves than the boats.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Forgive my sounding like a broken record, but how many dredges are operating? How much? Any idea how deep they are planning on dredging? Thanks...


----------



## zaraspook

For the first time in 3 weekends I hit GLSM. Was there Saturday most of the day doing chores. Fished 30-45 minutes with not much going on............1 crappie and 1 bluegill.

Water in my channel was green, but surprisingly not as green as 2+ weeks ago. Also, clarity was visibly better. Couple weeks ago clarity degraded to maybe 2", but yesterday was 10". Clarity usually degrades/worsens through Sept. I give credit to the alum treatment. Even though channels aren't being treated, the center of lake treatment has to remove particulates from the water column. As the treated water which is more clear mixes with adjacent untreated water and gradually flows or is windblown, it gets distributed throughout the lake. After 3+ weeks of alum treatment, we're seeing water clarity improvement even to untreated areas.

Hadn't been out on the lake since alum treatment started. No visible difference in clarity or color from the channels in my opinion. What was noticeable was much higher pleasure boat traffic.....almost as many boats out as you'd see on a normal sunny Saturday 3-4 years ago. That's a promising sign and nice to see.

For Lowell H Turner.............I did see a dredge positioned on the north bank. It wasn't operating......shutdown for weekend.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Am not by nature a "doom sayer', but the understandable desire to see the lake return to it`s VERY heavy boat traffic of several yrs ago may not be good for now. That many more high thrust props churning up the bottom with even HOTTER weather upon us does NOT bode well for the immediate future...and sincerely HOPE that am WRONG. Would MUCH rather hear that 4 DREDGES were going 24/7 full tilt...but again am looking at the LONG TERM picture...


----------



## Lynxis

Thats one gigantic lake to hope for no high power motors to ever run on it again.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Never said that. Said in the past and again that MODERN "high thrust' propellers operated at speed in 3- 5 fow over a sediment bottom LOADED with phosphate (algea food) tend to churn that sediment back into "solution"- ie, blowing it off the bottom closer to the sunlight and warmer surface temperatures. More boat traffic = MORE algea food back into suspension. If the lake were even 8- 10 ` deep, this wouldn`t be as much of a problem...unfortunately it is on average 3- 5 fow. 4 yrs ago was at GLSM in July, and watched water skiers doing EXACTLY that, and then complain about the "dirty water" and rotten eggs smell that resulted. Rather than realizing WHY this was occuring, they apparently went to another part of the lake to do the SAME thing, probabily with the SAME results. DUH...Wish the problem will GO AWAY ALL you want; only 1 thing is EVER going to LONG TERM "FIX" the lake, and you KNOW what that is...(and it ISN`T alum treatments !)


----------



## zaraspook

Latest round of EPA toxin testing at GLSM reports microscystins at all 3 sites tested below World Health Org standard of 20 ppb. Two beaches are in single digits, 3.3 and 7.8 ppb respectively. The previous 2 years I believe microcystins were out of control this close to July 4th holiday. Progress?


----------



## Lowell H Turner

That IS good news...


----------



## zaraspook

Lots of sun and very warm water is pushing GLSM toxin levels back up the scale. Latest round of beach testing came in at 15-20 ppb and water definitely shows more stuff(green) suspended in the water column. Water clarity took a hit, maybe 4-5 inches now. Those last tests by EPA were dated 6-27. I wouldn't be surprised if the next round shows microcystins above the the 20 ppb World Health standard lake wide.

Sunday(3rd) and Monday(4th) boater traffic was high and more boats pulling tubes than you'd think should be. Plenty of people were at the boater beaches and in the water despite advisories. Water temps were mid-80's and pushing upper 80's. Some surface film/scum in the channels where the water sees little wind. No massive algae blooms, but lake is struggling. There is nothing inviting about the lake color and clarity, but for now water is far from the lake wide blue-green blanket of 2010. A small victory perhaps, but no time to celebrate. Far to go......


----------



## fishwhacker

I was out on my boat on monday and you are right there was a ton of boat traffic...now do you think that all those boats stirs up the bottom and makes the lake worse or does it infuse oxygen into the water stopping the algae?? I also believe the lack of rain hasn't helped the lake at all this summer. As bad as rain is to bring more manure into the lake in the spring I think it is needed after the crops are planted to help put more oxygen into the lake.... am I wrong in my thinking zaraspook??


----------



## zaraspook

fishwhacker said:


> I was out on my boat on monday and you are right there was a ton of boat traffic...now do you think that all those boats stirs up the bottom and makes the lake worse or does it infuse oxygen into the water stopping the algae?? I also believe the lack of rain hasn't helped the lake at all this summer. As bad as rain is to bring more manure into the lake in the spring I think it is needed after the crops are planted to help put more oxygen into the lake.... am I wrong in my thinking zaraspook??


fishwhacker.......that's a great and simple question and you'd think there would be a simple answer. GLSM has chronic low dissolved oxygen levels. In my opinion it seems reasonable almost anything that churns the water, pulls air into the water column, creates waves (heavy boat wake) could help oxygen levels. Isn't that the whole theory behind the Airy-Gators, to drive oxygen toward the bottom, infuse oxygen, break down organic material and promote normal aquatic growth into sediment? Airy-Gators artificially induce oxygen and create needed flow/current. Boats may not be as efficient, but youd think they work along the same line.

Yes, Im sure boaters do/can churn up bad stuff on the bottom. Over the long haul GLSMs active dredging program should be removing the bad stuff leaving less for boats to churn. Im not convinced that stirring up the bottom is totally a bad dealsome positives to it if you buy into the Airy-Gator theory.

As far as rain goes, Im not sure rain impacts oxygen levels significantly, but it can affect the lake. When we go without rain GLSM has less in-flow, water levels fall and less water goes over the spillway. The lake becomes more stagnant, less flow/current, less turnover of the water, and less water means algae becomes more concentrated. Higher algae concentration means the lake is more susceptible to blooms and more toxins (microcystins) which yields more advisories for water recreation.

Its a complicated recipealmost everything does some good/some bad. Farm animal manure seems to be an exceptionhigh phosphorus from poop seems to be all bad.


----------



## zaraspook

Grand Lake St. Mary's alum treatment was completed last week. Celina Daily Standard has a very informative alum treatment video posted on their website. The video is the best explanation of the treatment and process I've seen. go here www.dailystandard.com/video/index.php?video_id=57&res=240


----------



## Weekender#1

Every day during the month of June twenty-eight tanker trucks of chemicals were applied to Grand Lake to fight the algae problem. The chemicals, aluminum sulfate (alum), and sodium aluminate, will bind up the phosphorus in the water and sediment and render it unusable by toxin producing algae. A $3.4 million Ohio EPA loan that will not need to be repaid is funding the project. HAB Aquatic Solutions of Nebraska is doing the work. 

This is a article from the Celina newspaper as noted below.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Am NOT an "expert' but am reasonaibly sure the "Airy Gators" inject oxygen into the water close to the bottom without really disturbing the surrounding sediments much if at all if properly used. Many types of harmful algae need low oxygen counts (parts per million?) to survive. Too much oxygen, bye bye algae...we wish! And again, am not saying "no boats"; however have seen in recent yrs where MODERN "high thrust" props just raise muddy patches, especially when getting up on "plane" from a stop; the bow comes up quickly due to water resistance and the prop is momentarily at a 20- 30? dergeee angle to the sediment 2- 5 feet below it. AM sure others have seen this, the SMELL is quite , well, "noticeable" as is the muddy patch on the surface. Would guess that whatever oxygen is injected is more than offset by the phosperous laden "former livestock by product" blown back into suspension. As more of the lake is deepened, hopefully these areas will become the "unlimited speed areas" for tubing, skiing, racing, ect while the still shallow undredged areas have speed restrictions imposed and ENFORCED. This cannot HURT the lake, but it is only my "opinion". DREDGE, baby! DREDGE ! And DREDGE SOME MORE!!!


----------



## zaraspook

Farmers/livestock guys in St Marys watershed have formed an Ag Solutions group........actually held their first meeting Nov last year. The group explores "cost effective solutions to the nutrient issues impacting the lake". The Celina Daily Standard article at link below reports there are 270 livestock farmers in the lake watershed. The article states a "core group of 10 attend all meetings". I applaud the efforts the organization, but if only 10 members attend every meeting, it sounds like less than 4% are seriously committed. Maybe I'm mis-reading the article? Link is www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15393


----------



## Lowell H Turner

When does the "grace period" expire? The core group SHOULD be publicly commended for their efforts; at least they are willing to acknowledge their current methods of operations are part of the problem. And if you remember, the "Improve the Lake Commity" had a small beginning too. This is a EXCELLENT opportunity to gain serious STRONG ALLIES to help STOP at least further new pollution from going into the lake ! Am sure some of them realise things HAVE TO and WILL change, and that there will be NO WAY to hide from satillite photography and the public, plus am also sure that by now they are TIRED of being seen as "the BAD guys" in this. Will ALL of them see it this way? Probabily not. Will the satillite SEE who`s complying, or at least making an effort, and who`s NOT? CERTAINLY. And they also KNOW that there are MANY persons willing to report the violators in a NEW YORK MINUTE. Hopefully while it`s not the "beginning of the end" we`re seeing the "end of the beginning".


----------



## zaraspook

We have a ways to go before "grace period" expires regarding manure management. I pulled this quote from the article about the farmers/livestock guys in Ag Solutions group...._"The need for the Ag Solutions group to find solutions will become more vital when stricter manure laws for lake watershed farmers become effective January 2013."_

A local GLSM lake restoration group, mostly business owners, and the Ohio DNR are jointly funding a contract with the scientific wizards at Battelle Institute. Battelle will analyze a slew of proposals on the table from different companies. There are 60 proposals from companies with ideas/plans to cure the lake. Article is on the Grand Lake Improvement Association's website at this link www.lakeimprovement.com/battelle-hired


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, hopefully with that many of the best and brightest working on it a low cost or even profitable way will be found to expedite the lake`s recovery will be identified and RAPIDLY implemented, or better yet, a multi prong approach. Ain`t 1 of them, but will throw out an idea of using solar to very rapidly de water the muck reducing the weight and giving away or possibly even selling it as fertilizer; the stuff is VERY good topsoil, the trick is to keep the smell down doing it. Any more it`s not a question of "can it be done economically?"; it`s a question of 'who`s already successfully done this and how do we get ahold of them?" It CAN be done, it`s having a solid plan and allowing nothing to stand in the way, including any politicans whom might get "cold feet", they can be replaced if necessary. Would hope the 1st person in ANY public office to even mention "grace period extension" is run outta town on the nearest rail...


----------



## zaraspook

Last year on 7/12 GLSM's testing for toxins/microcystins measured >2000 ppb at each of the 3 lake beaches that are monitored. Microcystin test levels didn't fall below the World Health Org standard of 20 ppb until 8-17-2010, about 5 weeks later.

The latest test results of same 3 beaches was 7-11-2011. The 3 beaches tested at 8.9, 7.4, and 6.6 ppb.........elevated above the Ohio self-imposed advisory level of 6 ppb, but all are below the World Health Std of 20 ppb. We've had plenty of warm temps and sun to cook the water brew, but toxin levels have vastly improved from 2010. 

There are numerous initiatives going on at GLSM in addition to the recent alum treatments and producing positive returns. For those naysayers who say "GLSM has always been messed up" and "GLSM can't be fixed", the data suggests get your head out of the muck. If we can stop the inflow of new contaminants (manure), work can focus on further reducing phosphorus already in the lake. It may take a decade of current and new technology, but this battle can be won. Other Ohio lakes will benefit from the agony and expense invested into GLSM.


----------



## dre

You guys are very knowledgable of what is going on with this lake. Are people still fishing it regularly? I service a few bait stores up there just wondering what the conditions are before I take the trip up there. Also would like to fish it.

Thanks!

Matt


----------



## zaraspook

The nasty bloom last year really shutdown fishing activity. I had a blast all fall and until ice in December and at times I think I was only person fishing........crappies, bluegills, and channel cats were really active and great numbers. Feb/March/April crappies were fast and furious, but size was smaller than recent years. Crappie bite fell off for me in May, numbers down, but size improved. Bass fishing in June was best I've experienced at GLSM, and I started July well but haven't fished GLSM since the 4th.

I think numbers of fishermen were good in the spring but it fell off as soon as the OEPA put out an advisory in late May. More people fishing now than at this time last year, but I doubt the bait/tackle places will report robust fishing pressure. Assuming the saugeyes survived, if catches are reported of saugeyes stocked from 2009 and 2010, GLSM fishing might see a resurgence. Too bad ODNR did not plan to stock GLSM this year with saugeye. We need more gamefish in the lake.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Agreed. but keep in mind several studies have shown most larger predator game fish MUST have deeper water to survive past a certain size. Even the majority of panfish in bodies of water with less than 8 fow just don`t seem to grow past a certain size limit; am not sure why this is, but depth is a MAJOR factor in potential fish growth ability. Grand Lake Saint Marys has 1,000s of acres of water, but comparitively little depth. And am not "knocking" the lake, just imparting what have read various places about seeking "trophy" bass. (I was once upon a time gonna be the next Bill Dance...). Again, ain`t saying dredge the WHOLE lake; it needs shallows as much as depth. Would LOVE to see the state dig 1/2 of it to 10 fow and in 1/4th spots down to 15 fow; anything close and we will within a decade see what the lake was like back in the late `40s and into the early `60s. There was a REASON the area grew up during that period; it still had several deeper areas and was a SUPERB lake for bass, crappies, perch and cats, and pike too if am not mistaken. Not to mention that with even 1/2 of the lake deepened to just 10 fow with strictly ENFORCED "speed zones" in the shallows, GOOD BYE algae "blooms', assuming the run off problems are properly addressed. We will witness a lake AND a fishery "reborn'...


----------



## ErieEye

I'm not saying GLSM doesn't need deeper water i.e. dredging. But I'm not to sure I agree with your statement reguarding the correlation between water depth and fish size. The average depth of lake Okeechobee is only 9' and that is one of the best trophy bass lake in the country. And I think I recall seeing pics of big walleyes that succumbed to the conditions that GLSM had last summer. Also Indian lake produces some awfully nice game fish, thats a shallow lake.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

As said am no "expert", and not saying this is strictly true to every type of fish, catfish tend to be a general exception. And keep in mind GLSM does still have a couple of deeper areas, as well as a couple of known springs on the lake bottom. Am pointing out the average depth is 4- 6 fow, and most "trophy fish" waters are at least slightly deeper. Remember, Indian Lake has had some extensive dredging done in the last few yrs. And the Florida lake has heavy plant cover and multiple springs in it plus it averages 3-5 more feet in depth. In general most "trophy' bass waters are at least 8- 10+ fow, same with most kinds of bluegills. And am fairly certain the pike population has dwindled for the same reason.


----------



## fishwhacker

I do believe that the deeper a lake the bigger the fish get but I have seen many walleyes pulled out of glsm this year that were over 24" so the walleye must be finding those deeper spots and are thriving there.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Am not sure how much depth of the once deeper spots remains, but have heard the majority of the walleyes/ saugeyes are caught near the out flow. Not sure how deep that area still is anymore, it used to be about 12- 15? fow when was still fishing in the "crappiethons'. used to be a GOOD spot ice fishing too, as were 2 "spring" areas that didn`t know where they were.


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Am not sure how much depth of the once deeper spots remains, but have heard the majority of the walleyes/ saugeyes are caught near the out flow. Not sure how deep that area still is anymore, it used to be about 12- 15? fow when was still fishing in the "crappiethons'. used to be a GOOD spot ice fishing too, as were 2 "spring" areas that didn`t know where they were.


LHT......only a very small stocking of saugeye fingerlings in May 2009, then a better number in 2010. Not much chance of decent saugeye catches going on anywhere at GLSM yet. I'd be surprised if water depth at spillway is as deep as you think. I've never cozied-up to the spillway to check depth adjacent to it, but in general the water 30-50 yards around and approaching spillway is only 4-6 feet deep. There is an area off the West Bank with a tract running 150 yards by 40 yards that is 8-10' with a concentrated pocket of 13-16 feet of water.

Personal opinion......the annual spring "rumors" of walleye catches at/below the spillway is really nothing more than myth. Sure, a few were caught there 5-8 years ago, but nothing more than a local legend now. You never find photos, names, witnesses to verify the reports......but the rumors run the mill every year. The 9.4# walleye caught last year with actual name and photo wasn't caught at or below the spillway.


----------



## zaraspook

ErieEye said:


> I'm not saying GLSM doesn't need deeper water i.e. dredging. But I'm not to sure I agree with your statement reguarding the correlation between water depth and fish size. The average depth of lake Okeechobee is only 9' and that is one of the best trophy bass lake in the country. And I think I recall seeing pics of big walleyes that succumbed to the conditions that GLSM had last summer. Also Indian lake produces some awfully nice game fish, thats a shallow lake.


ErieEye........you're correct about the substantial sized walleye that succumbed to GLSM conditions last year. I posted photos of multiple 24"+ walleyes floating dead last summer. Another contributor posted a large fish kill on a northern GLSM beach with more than 30 walleyes, among them fish larger than ones I witnessed. Stocked walleyes found a way to survive in GLSM for 5-10 years, maybe more, but it would appear the walleyes did not successfully reproduce. A few big fish were infrequently caught, but smaller ones haven't followed. The big walleyes were in GLSM, probably still are living in GLSM, but we never figured out how/where to catch them.

As I've said before, the smart guys at Battelle Institute say GLSM needs a bigger population of gamefish. Too bad the ODNR apparently did not continue to stock saugeye fingerlings in GLSM this year after starting the program in 2009 and again stocking in 2010.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, you`ll note I mentioned that was several DECADES ago. And again, the walleye have the potential for good growth, but with no significant depth unfortuneately they also have poor to little to no chance of survival during the "blooms'. Hopefully that will soon CHANGE...


----------



## ErieEye

Actually its been proven that deeper water during the algae blooms has significantly less oxygen than shallower portions of water column does. In fact deeper water can be all but devoid of oxygen during the summer months in areas with high concentrations of algae. That could be one reason why saugeyes in Indian lake become so hard to pattern as you get later into the summer months. Common beleif is game fish are going move into deeper water as water temps rise, however in lakes like GLSM and Indian lake that isn't reality. Oxygen levels in a lot of cases won't allow it. Now I'm not saying that GLSM doesn't need dredged because it does, but unless they dredge the better part of the lake and remove that phosphorus laden sediment its not going to matter. A couple of 15' holes won't make any difference in gamefish survival in extreme conditions. The lake needs increased weed growth similar to what indian lake has. However unless water clarity improves and light penetration increases that won't happen. But then again if that did happen pleasure boaters would complain about the weeds and have them killed off.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Some very good points. Am curious if 1/2 the lake is eventually dredged if any thought would be given to specifically targeting the several known springs; the reasons for doing so include the fact that spring water is naturally HEAVILY oxygenated. Being dredged deeper will allow that cooler (56 degree F) heavily oxygenated water to fill any other nearby deeper areas.(Warmer water rises, while colder water tends to sink) Am sure that many fish last yr survived by staying close to them. And dredging them and removing the overlaying material could actually INCREASE their flow into the lake significantly. Personally, would target every known spring and even "weeps' on the lake bottom and dredge them down atleast 15 fow, both to add depth and boost the bottom oxygen levels even if just in that immediate area. And would also find the 'temptation' to add some cover in those areas all but overwhelming, perhaps some osage orange (hedge apple) limbs which might last 10- 15+ yrs underwater...I just couldn`t HELP myself...Hope those dredges are ROARING !


----------



## zaraspook

Speaking of dissolved oxygen levels, check out the link below. This spring 4 stations were setup in GLSM to monitor water conditions.The stations monitor certain water characteristics 24/7, data collected every 15 minutes, and the data is live/real-time available at the site. I just discovered the link yesterday, can't really interpret data from it yet, but was amazed at the change in dissolved oxygen levels through the course of the day. Also, the stations on the east side of lake ran much higher oxygen levels than those on western side. I'm guessing that had something to do with wind direction (NW to SE yesterday), therefore larger wave action on east side (maybe more oxygenation from waves?), but just getting into playing with the site. Also, the ODO% (has something to do with dissolved oxygenation but uncertain what numbers are good and bad) starts out extremely low in AM but by evening is pushed as high as 180%. By the next morning ODO% falls down to 15-30% levels. Whatever the reference point, that's a crazy swing that goes on during the course of a day. Site is www.livelakedata.com .


----------



## zaraspook

ErieEye.......good point about weed growth. Battelle Institute guys made the same point. I've never encountered submerged weeds or any aquatic plant life out on the lake. I have the impression GLSM's main lake bottom is like the moon.......totally barren down there except for 4"+ phosphorus laden sludge. 

LHT......I wasn't aware there were any springs out on the lake but it's a huge area and it wouldn't surprise me. Would be nice to know locations.....maybe that's where the remaining walleye hang-out.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, pretty sure where the Fish Hatchery is there is 1, they used to raise rainbow trout, which is a cold to cool water fish, and the trout need that cooler heavily oxygenated water to survive a hot summer. Most of the older state hatcheries were at 1 time entirely spring fed. Depending on various factors there are about 2 ways am aware of to accurately locate submerged springs now adays. Modern sonar units with temperature readouts are useful in shallower waters along with aerial thermal imagery. In deeper water it can become MUCH harder. And YES, in a shallow warmer lake, you find a spring, you tend to find walleye, as well as other fish, assuming the springs are big enough in area and flow. And smaller "weeps" can actually become death traps, luring fish to them and then being gradually over heated during a prolonged hot spell. Digging them down to 15 or so fow can increase their outflow and help keep the cooler water from warming too much. If it were my choice, they would be #1 on the list of dredging sites for those reasons...


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Used to go by "Flak bait" a long time ago, on a reservoir really near. And really enjoyed the many times at Grand lake Saint Mary`s, remember some WONDERFUL fishing and other experiences there, the food was great and it was a realistic "Top 10" State Park; had many good and interesting events in the local area. Which beggers the question, how to correct this sad state of affairs ? How, in an economic and budget conscious time, can we either dredge or somehow realistically and accurately AND selectively lower the overall depth in an (hopefully) controlled manner in the least amount of time with the fewest unintended conditions, prefereably with the fastest result? Say go for the KNOWN springs 1st, and any "weeps" 2cnd. And realistically only 1 way am aware of to "sort of" see "dramatic" (1- 10 yr?) depth increase without dredging is drilling. Historically, the lake had (and presumabilly still has) several "sour spots" where methane seeps out of the muck and can accumulate on hot windless days. Combined with a solar drying system to hopefully PROFITABLY dewater what sediment that must be removed might buy the lake another 50 or so "glory years'...and if the farmers actually "come on board' with SOUND and realisticlly responsable practices, i would hope to do so again, maybe sooner than I thought...


----------



## Lowell H Turner

The silence is overwhelming...at the risk of seeming to suddenly be wholeheartedly "leaping into bed with the Devil" or to have suddenly be having suffered a 'momentary lapse of reason", go and type up "offshore oil drilling' on your computer- you may be aghast. Yup. Happened at a lake real near you. The petroleum industry was at that time still in it`s infancy and most of the practices were at best "crude", pardon the pun. Too much ground pressure was released too quickly and depending on whom one believes 80- 95% of that oil still remains, trapped. IRONICALLY, 1 minor "undesireable" result of removing the oil was that in some areas the lake bottom SUBSIDED (sank down) several feet and there was a brief fear that it would damage or destroy surrounding properties, or the immediate area. Modern extraction requires water or some other medium be pumped back into the wells to help maintain this pressure to avoid this and help force the remaining oil out. While not fully understood, this "subsidance' CAN (to some degree) be both predicted and "controlled"...just a thought on how to do the "impossible" in a "reasonable" amount of time at FAR less taxpayer expense and probabily at a lower price at project`s end...


----------



## zaraspook

Had some "weird science" going on last week in my GLSM channel. Our ultra green water with 3-4" of clarity flipped to the color of tea (a stained brown color - no green) and clarity went to 18"+. About 1/3 of our channel, maybe 200' of it, went thru the color and clarity change within a few hours. It slowly transitioned back to green and poor clarity over the next 18-24 hours, as water from areas that didn't "flip" mixed with the brown and changed back to green.

At least one other channel did the same thing. My theory is the water temp and chemistry reached exactly the right conditions for chlorophyll/algae/organic matter suspended in the water column to simultaneously die , or maybe it transitioned into something else. I'm really reaching here, and clueless to explain why the transition. The channel did this once before....I think it was in 2010. If the scientist could explain what happened, and if indeed the algae and other stuff all died, could it be a key on how to rid the lake of algae? If the incident could be explained and the process/conditions intentionally induced lake wide, perhaps it could be a tool to control algae production or kill it. Any biologists out there are to explain what was going on? We have no reason to suspect anything non-natural was going on.....no external catalyst, no chemicals, nothing but nature doing its thing.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Was this on the South shore of the lake? A great deal of drilling was done there yrs ago. In some areas of the lake bottom various gases have and continue to work their way up through the sediments. Some may be toxic to the algae. And/ or as you said, could be strictly a biological effect...hard to tell.


----------



## zaraspook

Yes......my channel is southern but wasn't the only channel to go thru the transition. I suspect it was natural cause and effect.......a combination of high water temps and other chemistry that pushes algae to the brink in it's life cycle. I may look for a way to run it past Ohio EPA boys for an explanation. If it turns out the algae in that area did simultaneously die, I can't help but think artificial inducement of those "right conditions" might be a tool to kill off algae rather than using alum treatments to render phosphorus unavailable.

Possible that what I witnessed was a bad thing, not good. But, no fishkill or other bad outcome was visible.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Can`t hurt. And if you help put 1 more piece of "the CURE" in place, WELL DONE! With what`s happened in the past, doubt it can "hurt"...have privately discussed with a few others just about anything that might "help"...


----------



## Lowell H Turner

How`s things on the lake? Any serious "blooms' yet? Hopefully the dredging is continuning.


----------



## zaraspook

Was at my lake place Sunday. Over the weekend water temp spiked into the low 90's after being in 84-86 range all week. I expected a big algae outbreak and with dissolved oxygen levels falling I was prepared for evidence of fish kills. The channels I viewed on the south side definitely show more signs of elevated algae levels(more scum). Although green, the main lake isn't showing visible signs of an algae outbreak. I was surprised that I aw no evidence of fish kills, in fact, saw lots of evidence of schools of 3" shad rippling the surface. Other lakes around Ohio have reported recent fish kills.

The lake seems to be faring better than last year, despite the incessant heat and lack of rain. This morning I checked the US Geological Surveys online sensors from a buoy in the center of the lake. Water temp didn't rise above 85 yesterday and sits at 83 at 7AM Tuesday. Beach toxin levels are in the 6-11 ppm range....above the state advisory level of 6 ppm, but running way below 2010 and probably lower than 2009. Although it could change at anytime, no major blow-ups at GLSM so far. Fingers are crossed!


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Great news so far.


----------



## zaraspook

The Celina Daily Standard reports meetings were held this week in Celina....subject matter being a class action lawsuit by businesses and individuals against farmers in the GLSM watershed. This same topic was floating around earlier this year, but seemed to lose steam. At least publicly, many businesses stated they would not join the litigation with fears the suit might cost them business in the area. Apparently something is going on behind the scenes and the newspaper caught wind of it. Link to article in Celina Dailt Standard is below.

Personally, I hate the whole lawsuit/litigation concept and felt maybe the livestock guys were finally getting the message. Maybe given one more chance, farmers would decide it's better to be a partner in solving the lake pollution problems. Maybe farmers would begin to put some of their money into stopping runoff and bad practices. But this past February I think I got my answer. Despite the horrific algae problems last year, the worst water quality ever seen by residents, fish kills, animal deaths, and human life threatened, very few farmers are stepping up to the plate unless they get grant $ from the Agricultural Department. I personally witnessed selfish disregard of the public last February. With snow on the ground and ice frozen fields, multiple farmers were out spreading spreading hog manure on fields adjacent to feeder creeks and less than a mile from the lake. Then came heavy rains that washed much of that manure into feeder streams for passage into the lake. 

If these farmers don't know better, they shouldn't be farming. If they do know better, they don't deserve the opportunity to screw the public for personal gain. The offending farmers do what they do because there is no reprisal against them, no fear of loss. It's time they feel some economic pain like they force upon the rest of Ohio taxpayers to clean up the mess they create. Decades of no penalties perpetuated their poor behavior. Nothing will change dramatically until they experience financial punishment. No more chances..........time for action.

Link is http://www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15587


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Forgive the "Told you so...' and with the "eye in the sky', there IS apparently undeniable glossy photographic evidence; times, dates, locations and probabily tonnage, and the end result. With this kind of technology against them, they won`t win. As soon as the "grace period' ends, expect either compliance or multi million $$$$$$$ lawsuits and farm closeures. Sorry it came down to all that, but 1 way or the other, this "pollute the lake for free" crap (pardon the pun) WILL STOP ! Too many persons have TOO much to lose to allow it to go on and on and on...it will take the better part of a decade or more to dredge and "fix" the lake, unless "unconventional" steps are taken...


----------



## zaraspook

Microcystin(toxin) levels at GLSM for the latest test date were the lowest of the season. Three beaches tested at 3.3 ppb, 2.4 ppb, and 4.3 ppb on 8-1. All three beaches below the 6 pbb advisory level put in place by the State EPA, and well below 20 pbb level for recreational activities from World Health Org. It's amazing considering many of the stagnant channels are showing lots of floating scum, much like you'd see this time of year in a typical farm pond. This time last year the beaches tested between 18 ppb and 85 ppb.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

So far, so good for the temperary "fix", hopefully the local businesses are having some success...


----------



## zaraspook

Inboard Hydroplane Championship Racing returns to Grand Lake. Racing is Aug 27-28 and FREE. Article from the Lake Improvement Association is pasted below......

_Thu, 08/04/2011

The roar of the engines and the plumes of water shooting skyward are the exciting sights and sounds you wont want to miss. World Championship Inboard Hydroplane Racing comes to Celina, Ohio, Aug. 27 and 28. More than 20,000 spectators will line the shoree along Lakeshore Drive to witness the exciting racing action.

Admission is free and there is no charge to park for those attending this exhilarating racing event.

There is a long and prestigious history of hydroplane boat racing in Celina dating to 1958, when Inboard Hydroplanes first roared across the waters of Grand Lake St. Marys. The Regatta attracts more than 70 boats and teams from throughout the Midwest and Canada every year with more likely in 2011 for this world championship event.

The racing action will begin at 10 a.m. both days. There will be all-you-can-eat pancake breakfasts both mornings from 7:30 to 11. Plenty of great food and adult beverages will be available during the weekend. Following the racing action on the evening of Aug. 27, musical entertainment will be provided by County Mile and The Mo Blues Band._


----------



## Lowell H Turner

This will help the local economy. Wish they could attract the US Grand Nationals of Dredging...


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> This will help the local economy. Wish they could attract the US Grand Nationals of Dredging...


That's the funniest quip you've posted!


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Forgive me, but was entirely serious...am somewhat curious as to the effects the high speed races may have on the lake...we will see.


----------



## BFG

Haven't you all been really dry down that way this summer so far? My Dad lives just south of Van Wert and only in the last few days have they had any measurable rainfall nearly the past month. 

Your algae will now bloom....run-off will take all that phosphorus to you...get ready.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Am honestly more worried about the 3- 8`(?) of phosphate enriched silt blanketting pretty much the entire bottom of the lake...but you may be correct...late August and early Sept is generally when the water temps are highest.


----------



## Weekender#1

A huge bloom is taking place in Lake Erie's Western basin right now, take a look at the Lake Erie satelite photo, you can see the green glow all the way from space. And it is huge. The view can be seen on the lake erie page under forcasts and in the listing is a satelite views.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Would still guess the FASTEST, most profitable way of deepening the lake is getting the oil companies back to the lake and try CONTROLLED "subsistance"; this COULD increase the lake`s depth as much as 10 fow in 5+ yrs from drilling beginning AND PAY for dredging the majority of the rest of it. A "wild' claim, but there is enough evidence and practical experience to PROVE it has been done before, both unintentionally and deliberately. Time to start thinking "out of the box". Would also PAY for the alum treatments, and drainages restoration projects. The oil companies are quite familar with the lake and this is not like drilling in 2,000+ ` of water 150 miles offshore.


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Am honestly more worried about the 3- 8`(?) of phosphate enriched silt blanketting pretty much the entire bottom of the lake...but you may be correct...late August and early Sept is generally when the water temps are highest.


LHT.......the lake chemistry is complicated and yields mixed results from changes. I think we've seen worst of water temps. Lake temp dropped below 80 on the 9th and is actually 76 degrees as of 8AM Thurs 11th. Was 92 July 23rd and and upper 80's 10 days ago. Dissolved oxygen levels are 4-5 times what it was a few days ago.......I think from wind producing waves and water movement. Turbidity levels (algae they say) in the 2000's around July 20, now about 150. GLSM is a stagnant pond and I think almost any water movement producing wave action is a benefit to the water chemistry. Again, I'm not a scientist. Stirring the bottom probably isn't a good thing, but if stirring the bottom includes infusing oxygen, it may yield some positive reactions. Just about any change that occurs yields both good and bad results. 

Remember, some of that bottom muck is phosphorus rendered inert by alum treatment. It may be stirred again into the water column, but the phosphorus isn't available as a consumable to the algae.


----------



## zaraspook

BFG said:


> Haven't you all been really dry down that way this summer so far? My Dad lives just south of Van Wert and only in the last few days have they had any measurable rainfall nearly the past month.
> 
> Your algae will now bloom....run-off will take all that phosphorus to you...get ready.


Yes.......GLSM area short on precip and within the drought designated area of Midwest. All heavy rains pose a threat for more poop to run into lake. We hope crops in fields slow the run-off from racing toward feeder creeks and hope crops hold water long enough for it to soak into soil. Farm guys are allowed to spread manure this time of year....we can only hope they don't exceed spreading guidelines. From the smell of local fields in the watershed, plenty of manure on the fields right now. We hope we are past the worst bloom threat. Main lake looks better than expected but stagnant channels do have ugly looking scum concentrations.


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Forgive me, but was entirely serious...am somewhat curious as to the effects the high speed races may have on the lake...we will see.


LHT........didn't mean to be critical. I know you're a huge dredging advocate and I'm with you. Your phrase "US Grand Nationals of Dredging" was wonderful and witty. Struck me as humorous with a touch of sarcasm. I loved it.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

You are correct on all accounts to the best of my personal knowledge, sir, although like you am no "expert".


----------



## zaraspook

Core samples of GLSM sediment are under collection for analysis to determine potential commercial uses. A couple of companies are currently engaged....one to provide a demo to turn sediment into potting soil. Another sees potential for concrete sand, but the core samples will provide better info of sediment content and value. Mining could be in GLSM's future and lake improvement costs shifting to private sector? Celina Daily Standard article is at this link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15662


----------



## Lowell H Turner

All it will take is for 1 knowledgeable guy to see doable BIG TIME $$$$$ and within 10 yrs the lake maybe dredged 50`deep...STILL say dry that muck out and contain (and maybe even SELL) the smell. you have some of the finest fertilizer known to man, and it`s already phosphate enriched...


----------



## Trophy-Minnow

I'm new on this board, and I really appreciate the updates on GLSM. Havn't made it there this summer, hope to in the fall.

I agree that the lake should be dredged. Get the bad soil off the bottom. It would be awesome if most of the lake was 15 feet with some 30 foot holes.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

YES, it will be wonderful, and with restored wetlands areas, and deliberately placed durable cover added, it will be a lake 'reborn"...CAN`T WAIT !! (Evil laughter sound effect here)


----------



## zaraspook

LHT........you'll love this article from Celina Daily Standard. It reports "unannounced OHIO EPA inspections" at two farms in GLSM area. Also, it references the "eye in sky" photographs to decide which farms to inspect. It does not report results of the inspections, however, and the two inspections were not very recent......April time frame. Article at this link 
www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15657


----------



## zaraspook

Trophy-Minnow said:


> I'm new on this board, and I really appreciate the updates on GLSM. Havn't made it there this summer, hope to in the fall.
> 
> I agree that the lake should be dredged. Get the bad soil off the bottom. It would be awesome if most of the lake was 15 feet with some 30 foot holes.


Welcome Trophy-Minnow! Good to know the posts are read and appreciate your commentary. Feel free to chime in.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

As said before, the TOOLS exist; it`s simply having the WILL to USE them. Coupled with ground based video cameras and run- off samples, the guilty may pollute, but they CAN`T hide that fact. And the END of the accursed "grace period" looms ever closer...between potential class action lawsuits and HUGE mandatory BIG $$$$$$$ FINES, volunteers on the ground taking video and that unblinking unsleeping "eye in the sky" believe the lake at least will not see a lot more deliberate pollution...still need that 1 person or group to see a realistic profit from that muck and go for the $$$$$$...this WILL get done. Still say solar dewatering while collecting the methane gas for sale and selling the remaining soil will be the ticket...somewhere, someone has probabily already got the experience, it`s simply finding someone who KNOWS it will profitably WORK and HOW to do it...


----------



## Lowell H Turner

And forgive my soundinging "crazy', but also still believe that CONTROLLED vertical oil drilling could DEEPEN the lake by 10`+ in less than 10 yrs and PAY for the dredging and lake restoration by itself. Would ensure the drillers had containment equipment ON SITE before they were allowed to drill 1 foot, and that concrete containment caps were in place and drilled thru, and that "fracking" was NOT used...we`re not talking about "high tech" deep sea drilling in 2,000 fow 100 miles off shore here...plus it would bring atleast some BADLY needed jobs to the local area. With mobile drilling barges, piece of cake...


----------



## zaraspook

Grand Lake Improvement Association has an interesting post about dredging GLSM from the Celina Daily Standard..........some of the weird stuff uncovered thru the years. Link in posted below but here is an excerpt and bit of history about offshore oil wells.

_McClellan said the most unusual item he found was the wooden platform and a pipe from an oil derrick from a time when hundreds of derricks dotted the lake. He found it in 1980 between Big Chickasaw Creek and Behm's Landing. The first offshore well in the world was erected in Grand Lake off Villa Nova in 1891._

Link to the article is here www.lakeimprovement.com/dredging-up-past


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Thank you, Zaraspoon. I am glad to see progress IS being made, and hopefully will continue. Am sure at times I sound like a "broken record", but I HONESTLY MISS going up there and enjoying the lake and the "Crappie-thons"...


----------



## zaraspook

Hadn't really fished for crappies at GLSM since end of June. Sun was setting fast last night (Tues), was waiting on my wife and sis who were running an errand, grabbed my crappie rig thinking I'd fish for 30 minutes. It was 8:25 before I dunked a triple-tip grub from shore. Four minutes in the first spot and no bumps so time to move to next location. Within 2 minutes I felt that familiar tug and steady run. A gentle hook set produced an impressive bend to my 8 1/2 ft crappie rod....I lifted out a slab white crappie just under 12". A great start! Continued moving on the bank and swimming the jig.......after another tug and quick burst I landed a chunky bluegill, that absolutely inhaled my jig just like the slab crappie had. After some effort, jig was out, but only a 1/2" of the grub remained. Damn......no more grubs with me and back to the house I hustle and located my supply. Rebaited the jig, 5 minutes back to my spot, but I'd lost 10 minutes of precious light and fishing time. Within 2 minutes of bait in water another pickup and run produced an 11" largemouth. Still moving along the bank under almost no light, the next 7 minutes yielded 3 more crappies and another silvery flash when I lost the biggest fish of the night.....lost it lifting it out of the water. Too dark to see, could have been either a crappie or bass but will never know.

It was a great 30 minutes of fishing.....action I hadn't seen since before summer started. The fish were on the feedbag....each one caught inhaled the jig and required intensive effort to remove the jig. Great fun and hopefully a preview of crappie fishing in the fall.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Reminds me of the SUBERB fishing used to have fishing with a 2' white Mr Twister back "in the day"...it just was NO BIG DEAL to catch 20- 30+ crappie, about 1/3rd were usually "keepers' (11"- 13"+). And the 1st time tossed a Road runner spinning jig...AH, that was NICE! 25 casts and 21 fish, 17 "keepers", all released! Just want to lake to recover SO BAD ! If drilling will PAY for the "fixing" it, am FOR that !


----------



## zaraspook

Hydroplane races returned last weekend to Grand Lake St Marys. 53 boats in the 2011 Governors Cup Regatta field. Event deemed a success and the racers glad to be back. More in report at link (below) to story provided by Celina Daily Standard.
www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15810


----------



## dock dabber

Was there for the races and was taking pictures. Must say the rooster tails the boats were throwing looked much cleaner than they were a couple years ago. Looking at the pics on my computer and cropping in on them shows good progress is being made. Lets hope it continues.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Am glad it went well. Can`t ever remember being up there for the races. Was just concerned about them possibly churning alot of the sediment back into suspension. The alum treatments seem to be working as advertised; just hope as much dredging gets done as HUMANLY possible; it`s still 75% of the LONG TERM "cure"...


----------



## zaraspook

dock dabber said:


> Was there for the races and was taking pictures. Must say the rooster tails the boats were throwing looked much cleaner than they were a couple years ago. Looking at the pics on my computer and cropping in on them shows good progress is being made. Lets hope it continues.


dockdabber.......Thanks for the report of your observation. We see the lake frequently and it's tough to notice subtle changes. We know gradual physical improvement is happening, but positive commentary like yours is the beginning of change to people's opinions.


----------



## Spence88

any fishing reports to be had? Will be up there over the 3 day weekend and plan on sniffing out a few fishies...


----------



## Trophy-Minnow

I was there Tuesday catfishing around noon at windy point, only had a few small bites at the end of the point so I tried a few other spots on my way back in. No luck.
Then I picked one more spot before I left, the small gravel parking area on the left, right before you get to the windy point dock using nightcrawler on one rod and shrimp on the other. Around 4 they started biting, first one fought hard the whole way in 4lb channel. As soon as I got that line re-baited the second one took off and I thought it was smaller but it was swimming toward me and as soon as it got close it took off. 
Was bigger than the first one, right around 5lbs.

After that It was time for me to leave, which I really didn't want to because I cant remember catching two big channels back to back like that. Hopefully pictures next time!


----------



## zaraspook

Spence88 said:


> any fishing reports to be had? Will be up there over the 3 day weekend and plan on sniffing out a few fishies...


Spence88.........your post is #228 in the thread. Did you see my post, #222? I fished little at GLSM in July and Aug, but water temps have fallen out of the mid-80's and bite is waking up a little. Water temp is just above 74 at 7AM Thursday morning. Dissolved oxygen levels are much improved over the last 2-3 weeks. I'll be at GLSM a good part of this holiday weekend and testing the bite.

I did catch a 12" slab right at dark on evening of 23rd, plus 3 other crappies in less than 1/2 hour of fishing. Fish were in very shallow water, 1-2 feet and close to bank, which surprised me. This area is well oxygenated, natural shoreline rather than concrete seawall, some gravel bank but lots of bank with weed growth at shore line. I've caught 10-12 bass out of the same area this year in last 10 weeks even though total fishing time is less than 5 hours. The same area produces bluegills and an occasional channel cat. Other than this one area that produces fish late evening, early morning to a lesser degree, none of my normal crappie spots produce but haven't fished them much. Grubs I used were black body, chartreuse tail. Good luck.


----------



## Spence88

GLSM proved worthy this weekend. Caught plenty of throwaway crappies and an extremely occasional keeper, the biggest going just over 10". Plenty of decent bluegills too. Saturday afternoon, with a cold front approaching, was probably the best two to three hours fishing for the weekend. Sunday am was good until about eleven, then it shut down. Water was definitely green but I actually expected worse, as I've certainly seen worse.


----------



## zaraspook

Spence88........I fished GLSM 6 times over the holiday for about an hour at dawn or dusk each session. Definitely didn't kill them, but in those 6 hours I caught 21 crappies, probably 30 bluegills, 2 channel cats including one 3-4 pounds, and about a 6 pound carp that was a real struggle on my crappie rig. Best session was an hour Sunday evening (low-pressure system was passing thru) catching 7 crappies 4 of which were 10.5-11.75 inches and very chunky fish, almost as fat as egg-laden spring females. I lost one paper-mouth, the biggest fish of the weekend, lifting it from the water. Monday fishing was toughest with front well past us.

I believe GLSM will have on of the best falls in years for slabs. Last fall I routinely caught 30-50 crappies nearly every time I fished, but keepers were few and far between. Plenty of 6-7 inch fish, but at best 5-10% would tip the 10" mark. This spring was similar, lots of fish, few decent ones but those small fish are grown. I'm not catching a lot of fish yet, but size is impressive. 12 of my 21 over this weekend were easily bigger than 9, and majority of those in the 10.5-11 range. Over the last month I think 50% are legal......an impressive number for Ohio. Catch numbers should go up for the next few months and I think that 50% legal size will hold. 

GLSM was active this weekend with property owners. Had a lot of competition for some of my better spots and didn't get to hit them. I'll do better when the weekend folks thin. You and your gang should plan another couple of trips - this is gonna be fun, but don't tell anybody. No decent fishing at GLSM, right?

Yep.....water is green but less green than last 2-3 years at this time. No signs of floating film/scum in the channels I fish.


----------



## triton189

zaraspook said:


> Spence88........I fished GLSM 6 times over the holiday for about an hour at dawn or dusk each session. Definitely didn't kill them, but in those 6 hours I caught 21 crappies, probably 30 bluegills, 2 channel cats including one 3-4 pounds, and about a 6 pound carp that was a real struggle on my crappie rig. Best session was an hour Sunday evening (low-pressure system was passing thru) catching 7 crappies 4 of which were 10.5-11.75 inches and very chunky fish, almost as fat as egg-laden spring females. I lost one paper-mouth, the biggest fish of the weekend, lifting it from the water. Monday fishing was toughest with front well past us.
> 
> I believe GLSM will have on of the best falls in years for slabs. Last fall I routinely caught 30-50 crappies nearly every time I fished, but keepers were few and far between. Plenty of 6-7 inch fish, but at best 5-10% would tip the 10" mark. This spring was similar, lots of fish, few decent ones but those small fish are grown. I'm not catching a lot of fish yet, but size is impressive. 12 of my 21 over this weekend were easily bigger than 9, and majority of those in the 10.5-11 range. Over the last month I think 50% are legal......an impressive number for Ohio. Catch numbers should go up for the next few months and I think that 50% legal size will hold.
> 
> GLSM was active this weekend with property owners. Had a lot of competition for some of my better spots and didn't get to hit them. I'll do better when the weekend folks thin. You and your gang should plan another couple of trips - this is gonna be fun, but don't tell anybody. No decent fishing at GLSM, right?
> 
> Yep.....water is green but less green than last 2-3 years at this time. No signs of floating film/scum in the channels I fish.


I do believe that with far less fishing pressure the lake is going be very good..! Just don't think I would fry up any of those crappie yet.


----------



## Spence88

triton189 said:


> I do believe that with far less fishing pressure the lake is going be very good..! Just don't think I would fry up any of those crappie yet.


I didn't have enough legals to worry about frying, but some of the bluegills would have easily made sandwiches. One old boy was keeping bluegills and asked if he could have any decent ones that I caught. I asked him about eating them and he said he's been eating them for days/weeks/years without incident or problem. Take that for what its worth, but the warnings aren't scaring off everybody. 

Also caught my first walleye ever out of GLSM. 12" at best but fun to finally see one (and not just hear about them).


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, as the lake is steadily dredged and deepened, you should expect the crappie to increase in size. The fact that most people are throwing back what they`re catching doesn`t hurt either. Glad you did well !


----------



## zaraspook

triton189......Agree that lack of fishing pressure is a positive. At times last fall I felt like I had the lake to myself.......that's a blessing.

Fish tissue tests last fall by ODNR showed no toxin worries for eating fish. Every test I've read conducted worldwide since mid-90's reached same conclusion. However, same tests say don't eat liver and organs......duh! ODNR has another tissue study scheduled this fall.


----------



## zaraspook

Spence88........Caught a walleye? That's fantastic! Have you considered the fish could have been a saugeye? Saugeye fingerlings were stocked initially in spring 2009 but only 23,000. Another 230,000 or so were stocked spring 2010. None stocked this year......ODNR said they'd wait on another fish tissue/toxin study before resuming saugeye stocking, despite recommendation by Battelle Institute that GLSM badly needs more gamefish.

The small class of 2009 stocked saugeye should be 8-12" by now from what I read about saugeye growth rates. Your fish could have been one of those. Walleye haven't been stocked since 2006. By now those fish should be at a minimum 16-20". It's possible you caught a walleye from a successful spawn at some time, but ODNR felt walleyes failed to reproduce in GLSM.

I've caught 2 walleyes from GLSM, but in 2009 and both were 16-18". Your walleye would be only the 3rd person I'm aware of with a confirmed catch. By any chance did you get a photo of the fish? ODNR might be interested in identifying for input on saugeye stocking. Regardless of whether a walleye or saugeye it's fantastic to hear.


----------



## zaraspook

GLSM core samples of lake bottom show little sand but lots of peat......it could be valuable to a Wisconsin potting soil company. An excerpt from Tueday's Celina Daily Standard reports "_The peat may be attractive to owners of a Wisconsin company who recently announced they want to build a plant near the lake that turns dredged lake sediment into potting soil. One of the needed additives is some sort of fibrous material, such as peat._"

Here's the dredging report, LHT as reported in the same Daily Standard article "_The state has dredged 185,210 cubic yards of sediment from the lake this year. The goal is 200,000 cubic yards_" I haven't a clue how the dredging haul compares to other years. 

The full article can be read at the link below.
www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15872


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, like said previously, that muck and peat are some of the RICHEST and coincidentally heavily phosphate ENRICHED fertilizer known to man. The layers are probabily anywhere from 10+ to 25+` thick. Someone`s seeing SERIOUS $$$$$$ signs!!! Have done some research on early survey reports by state and US Army Corp of Engineers who participated; the area where Grand Lake Saint Marys is now used to be the Great Dismal Swamp; the swampy area was actually 1/3rd BIGGER than the present lake due to ancient buried log jams. A similar case existed in the "narrows" of the mid Mad River just SW of Springfield (where the US 68 bridges are now), creating Lake Lagonda. At the Northern end was Cedar Bog which at that time was 18,000+ acres NOT counting the lake itself which covered about 4,000+ acres in the spring and was close to 40` deep then. Starting about 1820 the log jams were repeatedly burnt and blasted and the rock falls that allowed it to form in the "narrows" were drilled, blasted and removed, allowing the State and Corps to "tame" the Mad River- which took another 80 yrs.


----------



## zaraspook

LHT......as I read it you're right on target. Peat below the bottom sediment is a product of earlier swamp that existed. I'm thrilled that a commercial enterprise may dredge GLSM for profit and reduce the state's expense to dredge. However, too often we don't discover harm we do until 30 years later. Hope commercial dredging doesn't generate other byproducts and unforeseen issues.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon will agree whole heartedly. Some times it takes longer than that. Consider that the area around Grand Lake Saint Marys was origionally a glacieral lake that gradually filled in and became a swamp. Then European settlers came to the area and seeing the success of the Erie Canal, decided to build a canal system in Ohio, but on a MUCH bigger scale. They cleared and dredged the swamp and altered the landscape to create a MASSIVE reservoir to provide water to operate the canal system. This lead to further land clearing for farming which increased erosion causing the start of the lake slowly refilling with sediment. Advances in technology allowed the railroads to replace the canal system which was abandoned, but the fuel for the early locomotives was wood, not coal which caused more land clearing and started to increase the rates of erosion and sedimentation of the lake even more. Finally with "efficient' railroad transportation, fertilizers (phosphate) could be brought into the area in bulk to increase the yield of the farms gradually increasing even MORE erosion AND adding the main ingredient for our main problem now. So untill very recently, the manmade lake was on the verge of again slowly becoming a swamp...ironic, don`t you think?


----------



## zaraspook

Actually, the Lake Improvement Association is pushing a plan to restore swamp/wetlands on on the south side of lake. According to photos from the 1930's swamp with water depth under 2' extended out several hundred yards from the current shoreline, but was eradicated with property development. I'm not sure GLSM is on track to naturally return to swamp, but we have a movement by humans to help the process along.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Pardon, I meant that erosion and sedimentation over 140+ yrs has reduced the overall depth of the lake from 5- 12` as origionally completed to it`s current depth. Actually RESTORING the wetlands and native swampy areas would be of enormous benefit to the overall health of the lake and help enhanse it`s biodiversity. VERY GOOD idea...


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, interesting thing about living in the "computer information age"; it`s not a question anymore of "Can this or that be done and how to do it?" Realistically, now it`s simply a question of "Who`s ALREADY DONE this, where, how`d they do it and can we gather the political and financial WILL to REPEAT what they did already ?" As far as "harvesting" the peat crop from the bottom of Grand Lake Saint Marys, #1 will be having enough water depth to float the "harvest" barges to shore. #2 "Dewatering" the peat #3 The smell from the methane being released (although it might be able to be collected to actually power the barges !) #4 Finding a cenrtal site to build the "dewatering" and bagging facility. Don`t think issues of polluting the water with very fine silt will be any worse than will occur from having the state funded dredges doing the exact same thing. IF this "pans" out, it will PAY for dredging most of the lake...just hope they deepen those areas where there are known "weeps" and springs...


----------



## dreamstalker

zaraspook said:


> LHT......as I read it you're right on target. Peat below the bottom sediment is a product of earlier swamp that existed. I'm thrilled that a commercial enterprise may dredge GLSM for profit and reduce the state's expense to dredge. However, too often we don't discover harm we do until 30 years later. Hope commercial dredging doesn't generate other byproducts and unforeseen issues.


Lets see.. No till farming within 20 miles of watershed. All farmers and property owners within the affected area asessed for lake cleanup. Known manure fertilizer companies selling product to these farmers drasticaly fined to aid in cleanup. All local government officials fired for turning the other cheek with possible criminal prosecution. All phospher farmers required to pay for hazardous waste removal and disposal treatment.
Yes this all seems drastic, but we have a drastic problem with the two county area with a history of extremely low employment history relying on tourism to bolster the economy. Hmmm It sure seems like a mini gulf oil spill syndrome. well Bp was put on the spot. Why not put the farmers on the spot. Both are greedy businesses destroying our lands to make a buck. Now the greed spreads out further. Companies wanting to filter in to see how they cam make money on the cleanup. Dumping chemicals in the lake to attempt to kill agae and nutralize stuff will just addto the problem and or create new ones. Lets remember that we send a constant flow of this problem to Indiana from this lake. Lets start at the source of the problem. shut down and imminent domain confiscate all properties involved in bad farmer practices using uncontrolled products. You cannot hide and escape by saying storm runnoff this and weather that. Stop the source first. Then address the lake second. Whoa did I say the lake second? OMG! Well lets face it you were told the lake was unsafe...toxic..etc... but recently you were told to join the fish tourney to remove bad fish lol.. Oh its ok just dont touch..Oh its ok just dont eat...oh its ok just dont swim.. UNSAFE IS UNSAFE! The damage is done here folks. The reputation of the lake is known nationwide now. For those of you that want to be in the "Oh its ok club" just think of the children and future generations. What legacy will you pass on? 
1: We woke up and stopped those involved and kicked arse till we completely restored our lands from the greedy poisonous business owners.
2. We stayed in our comas and sat back and let more greed come in and put the icing on the cake creating the states largest sespool.
LOL Ok lets allow oil drilling that will fix everything. 
well the lake is not the whole problem area. the stream, rivers, groundwater, land.. The whole area is affected. A constant stir of the sepool will ship massive amounts of this problem downstream to indiana from Beaver creek-wabash river. Where do you get your drinking water from? ..the lake area. If you are telling water consumption is safe then you are telling people that you are able to treat the water efficiently to make it drinkable. If this is true then instead of sending sludge downstream treat it. 
I remember the mayor of New York shutting down all gunshops across the united states that sold guns to the public that ended up in violent crimes. NY broke the backs of the shop owners through the legal system by keeping them in court till they were financially bankrupt.
We were told as kids a long time ago " In the future you will not be able to eat the fish..you will have to buy clean water to drink..etc.... well now it's true. 
I have no perfect ansers to the lake execpt drain it...re-dig it out sending the sludge to a hazardous waste site to be delt with at the cost to the criminals. Stop the source pollution. Then refill and restock the lake along with a swift kick in the ass to EPA and ODNR to police and protect our natural resources. Not after the fact, but 24/7. Along with all of us taking responsibility for our areas. No-one is blameless. We all eat the products grown here. I for one would not send my children to that lake for any activities. The reputation of the lake is destroyed. It is now unsafe. No-one is gonna convince me or many across the region anything otherwise. Watch how many insurance rates go up after this sespool problem filters down through the economic ladder. 
We are all heartfelt on this issue and this wall of text only puts another drop in the bucket. I for one will spend a great deal of time with a camera and what little resources I can bring to bear on this. My choice of elected officials will be scrutinized on pro-activeness. I hope the locals are able to pull through this nightmare and recover from the greed oriented land destroying businesses that crushed the property values, made our children sick, and ruined one of the most fanstastic areas of our state. I have many photos of family outings ..fishing trips..and much time spent on this lake. Now only memories of the past.. 
Good luck and god bless...


----------



## zaraspook

Fished GLSM early evening today(Friday). Typical smorgasborg...........6 crappies with 4 legal and largest right on 11" tick. Nice to see good size to crappies is holding. Also caught 2 small bass (biggest 10"), 2 channel cats, 3 bluegills and an anemic looking sheephead. That's first sheephead this year............last year's algae bloom and low oxygen took a heavy toll on sheephead. All fish felt cool but my probe indicated 70 degree surface temp.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Nice haul of fish, sir !


----------



## zaraspook

Bank fished 2 hours for crappie Sunday evening 9/11 approx 6-8pm at GLSM. Heavy shower for about 1/3 of the time. Fish were not aggressive, didn't attack like they can and hook sets were not deep into roof of mouth like when they are hungry. Ended the session with 8 crappies, five were legal, biggest was 11.25" and most in that 10.25-10.5" range. Also caught 3 gills but not great size.

Fish were in 3-4 feet of water. 1/2 way thru session ran into another crappie angler - we compared notes. He was having a bit more success after downsizing jig and bait. I switched to 1/32 oz jig head from 1/16th oz but did not change my plastic (triple tip grub). Slower fall of bait did improve number of bites and more effective. Thanks, Dennis.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Again, well done ! Imagine that if most everyone still isn`t keeping anything by spring crappie spawn this should get interesting!


----------



## zaraspook

No question that lack of fishing pressure and returning your catch helps fish population. However, crappie size and density seems to run in cycles and very dependent on size and quality of the spawn. The states 9" minimum size limit in 2010 could be a big factor in this. Last year it was clear we had a great class of smaller fish......6-7 inchers, while the upper classmen were in smaller numbers than norm. These 10-11" fish we're catching now are probably 3-5 years old and suggest the 9" size limit could make it interesting for years to come.


----------



## zaraspook

Microcystins (toxins) at GLSM are elevated the last 2 weeks and running above the 20 ppb level of World Health Org. It doesn't make a lot of sense since water temps are down (64 degrees this morning), and less sun to cook the algae. The water looks the greenest of the year......more "stuff" suspended in the water column. I'm guessing that lower water levels are part of the problem. What ever amount of algae/stuff is in the water column, as lake levels continue to fall(less water), that algae/stuff becomes more concentrated.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Possibly as the "food chain' begins to slow and break down as the water temperatures cool that may cause a brief 'spike" in bacteria/ algae counts?


----------



## tritonBB

Zaraspook are any of the crappies you been catchin whites?They seem to be a thing of the past.


----------



## zaraspook

tritonBB said:


> Zaraspook are any of the crappies you been catchin whites?They seem to be a thing of the past.


tritonBB........that's an interesting question and can't say I pay much attention to species unless they are the bigger fish. Until 2-3 weeks ago, I'd say there was an absence of black crappies. Catch was mostly white up until then and now maybe closer to 35/65, but still more whites. Last Sunday caught 11 but took 3 hours to find that many. 4 were in the 10-11.5 range, but I think only one was a black. Crappie bite was slow, not aggressive. Caught about a dozen bluegills. Water temp was 67 in my channel.

I wasn't aware white crappie populations have diminished. Is that the general trend or something specific to certain lakes?


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Possibly as the "food chain' begins to slow and break down as the water temperatures cool that may cause a brief 'spike" in bacteria/ algae counts?


Can't speak to food chain and really think it has more to do with dilution or density of stuff in the water. I have a swimming pool. Cyanuric acid is a stabilizer for pool water. When water evaporates from the pool, the cyanuric acid level doesn't evaporate. The amount of cyanuric acid in the pool hasn't changed, but the volume of water has changed. The density/concentration of cyanuric acid rises as a percentage of the water volume.

GLSM is down 2 feet from the spring and probably a foot since Aug 1. As water evaporates the algae doesn't. If the total algae in the lake was the same today as it was on Aug 1, the total water volume is less. Same amount of algae suspended in less water means the volume becomes more dense with algae. If the avg depth of GLSM is 5' and it's down 1' that is 20% less total volume. The % of the volume made up by algae is higher even if algae isn't growing faster than before. 

If you put any substance into a filled 5 gallon bucket of water, the concentration of the chemical will be less than dissolving the same amount of the substance in 4 gallons of water.

Is this nerdy, or what?


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, not "nerdy' at all. Probabily exactly "money on'. Wasn`t aware the lake was "down" that far. My point is as the "food chain' (total biomass of the lake ) slows down after reaching a summer peak and them starts to decline in most bodies of water there is usually a brief "spike' in the # of bacteria/ algae taking advantage of the released nutrients. Your assesment is likely also accurate with the lower lake volume. Excellent observation, sir.


----------



## zaraspook

It's easy to rag on the farmers in the St. Mary's watershed, but some of the agricultural guys are doing it right. Here are a couple in Auglaize county who try to set the bar as high as they can, rather than just making minimum standards. 

Brownhaven Dairy received this year's Dairy Environmental Stewardship Award, and the Dahlinghaus Farm received the Poultry Environmental Stewardship Award. Both farms are in New Bremen.

GLSM and the lake can peacefully co-exist. These guys are walking the walk. Full article from Celina Daily Standard is at link below.

www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=15946


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Their certainly more than a "couple" of farmers and even commercial poultry and livestock operations that honestly believe and PRACTISE the notion that the more ecological inpact they cause the more long term ECONOMIC impact it has from potential loss of profit, both from consumer outcry and to unintended effects to their own produce. The more successful members practise TRUE stewardship of the acres they use with an active desire to pass that knowledge to their own kids and associates. The days of "bust that virgin sod and let it erode" are GONE, as are the by- gone days of "The rain will wash it off my property..." LONG TERM, they as a group MUST be involved. As far as the total phosphate loading of the lake, farmers normally have every economic reason to go as light on it in the fields as is still effective. Would still think that decades of 2 loads of laundry from about every house on the lake every week running into a septic tank and leechfield, eventually into the water table did NOT help. Especially as the area further developed in the 60`s to the 80`s. Again, thankfully, those days are also behind the lake; otherwise, it would be so unhealty you just couldn`t be around let alone dwell next to it...a WISE if at that time VERY unpopular decision taken by the local health and engineer department. Surprising how many factors influence and effect the overall condition and health of such a BIG body of water !


----------



## zaraspook

Yes, economically, it cost farmers money to put add any more phosphorus on fields than absolutely necessary. Grain farmers have incentive not to overdo it. Unfortunately, the livestock guys have larger herds than they can effectively manage manure. It costs more to haul away the manure they do not need, than the possible fines for excessively dumping on their fields. The economic incentive for them is to keep dumping excess on soil, feeding the cycle of too much phosphorus into creeks and then into lake. Fines have been non-existent so why not dump and continue the cycle of polluting the lake? That practice, if new laws are enforced, is coming to an end and we're close to livestock guys finding revenue streams for the manure. When they can get cash for the poop, we'll finally make some headway on the lake phosphorus problem. Of course, also must DREDGE.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Hopefully a corner has been turned...


----------



## zaraspook

Fished Friday 23rd for couple hours before dark and again Saturday AM for an hour and a half, mostly during a rain shower Saturday. Crappies were tough to come by. Catch one, fish another 20 minutes in same area without a bite, move and catch another single. Ended the 2 sessions having caught 10 crappies and 9 bluegills. Four of the crappies were legal.....largest a tad over 10.5". Bluegills were slightly more active than the crappies and also 4 of those were keeper size.

I changed baits and colors frequently but it didn't seem to matter. Crappies were scattered and light hitters both days. Might have helped if I'd added a waxworm to the hook but I rarely give in to using meat. The largest crappie and 2 of others that were keeper size succumbed to a new bait I tried. It's called a "hot grub" by Southern Pro........essentially multi-colored twister tails and slightly larger than Southern Pro's triple tip grubs. I ran into two other shore fishermen and a pair of crappie anglers in a boat. They reported similar success.....scattered fish....keep moving.


----------



## zaraspook

Tried playing the crappie game again last evening (Tues). Drove 70 minutes to GLSM and never saw a drop of rain. Arrived just before 6pm and grabbed my crappie rig. Immediately skies started to sprinkle and it turned into a steady shower for an hour. In that hour at best I had 1/2 dozen tickles to my lure.....it was slow. Results were zero crappies, 2 bluegills. 

Headed inside, grabbed a sandwich and scrambled to locate my rain gear. No reason to get soaked. Back out for another 30 minutes as light was slim and failing fast. Of course now that I was wrapped in rain gear, the rain stopped. Finally got a crappie on , but lost him lifting over the bank. Another good bite and a heftier fish......damn 12" bullhead. Darned if I didn't run into a crappie (it must have been lost) that was all of 6". Another spot......no longer any light and another fish on. Gotta be a slab crappie but too dark to see it dangling on my line. As I secured the fish to remove my jig, I discovered that rather than a chunk crappie it was a 10" bass. 

One of the great things about fishing........you never know what you're gonna get. This time it was just a single dink crappie, 2 bluegills, dumb bullhead, and a largemouth. No trophies......very few fish.....but still fun.


----------



## RedCanoe59

zara, 
The damn bullhead made me laugh. Berlin lake which is near me, is a good inland walleye lake, but i never had any luck there. So many times i thought i had a walleye, only to pull up a channel catfish. Three years ago i was ice fishing on a known winter walleye spot, with a jigging rap. i got a big hit on it and thought finally i've got my walleye and ended up pulling a 24" channel catfish through the hole. Since then i've had a lot more success fishing for walleye, but i'll never forget the dang ice channel cat. sorry i didn't get back to your email. i did fish GLSM a little when i was in town. I decided to go to neikamps, insted of fishing. i stopped and got some fast food and decided to eat at the near the little channel by casey jones diner on lakeshore drive. there were a school of shad getting attacked in the bay. i did have a fishing rod in the truck so i tossed a jig and small ripple shad at them trying to see what was pushing them up. i didn't get any bites, but what ever was pushing the shad up was sizable judging by a couple of the boils i saw. It may have been a few channel cats or bass, i'll just pretend they were walleye.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Sir, as far as it the rain stopping once you`re properly attired for it, been there, done that...at least you`ve been having some luck! and you didn`t come home with the "oder de la skunk' upon your person ! Would bet as the water temps fall just a bit more, you may come home with the fragrance of some serious fish about you !


----------



## zaraspook

rc59.............I'm with you in having a fish on, hoping it's a walleye, and it turns out to be a channel cat. I really don't mind channels cats. Brookville lake in SE Indiana is a respectable walleye water. I've caught at least a dozen channel cats there this year, all on artificials when walleye or smallmouth fishing.

At GLSM that day you would of laid a load in your pants if that ripple shad tied into one of those stripers last stocked in GLSM 30+ years ago. Sorry you didn't catch something, even if just a damn bullhead.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, know there once were also Northern Pike in Grand Lake Saint Marys yrs ago; was wondering if you have caught or heard of anyone catching any recently?


----------



## zaraspook

LHT............yup. GLSM still produces the occasional northern, but we didn't catch any this year. Between March 2009 and end of April 2010 we caught 7 pike from our channel. Usually 15-18" fish but largest was a 25" pike that was tremendous fun on my 8.5" flyrod/crappie rig. Largest I've heard of was 2010, before the disastrous blue-green algae outbreak. A bass angler boated a 7# northern. I viewed photo at local bait store. All our pike seem to be caught Mar-April, usually in heavy brush while crappie fishing.

I thought I had a photo of my 25" fish in my gallery but don't see it now. I'll post if I can locate the pic.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Appreciate the info. A "Friend " wants to go pike fishing next spring, and CJ just ain`t got any, although have had at least 2 persons swear they caught 1 each there...could be, but if so, rather rare. Have never seen 1 from there anyway. Thank You for the info, sir!


----------



## zaraspook

Ohio EPA and DNR report on alum treatment, dredging, and rough fish removal is at the link below from Celina Daily Standard issue 9-29-11. The original alum treatment was budgeted at $5 mil, but pared back and actual cost was $3.4 mil.
*
Here are a couple excerpts regarding alum treatment....*_Phosphorous levels were reduced 56 percent in the 4,900-acre treatment area in the center of the lake, according to a report by consultant Tetra Tech._
_Ohio EPA Director Scott Nally said it's "more than likely" the state will treat the lake with alum next year. __Nally said if the lake is treated next summer it would be done earlier before warmer weather spurs algae growth. "We have to get out earlier than later due to temperature levels in March and April rather than June and July," he said._
*
Dredging and rough fish removal statement.......*_Nally also said state-funded dredging and rough fish removal are helping the lake. Since early spring the state has removed 210,000 cubic yards of sediment from the lake's bottom and 13 tons of rough fish, which contribute to algae blooms._
*
The State's general assessment of improvement efforts.......*_"There's been a very positive reaction by local folks, and they like the state's attention," said Tom Knapke, facilitator of the local Lake Restoration Commission (LRC). "Activities on the lake increased this summer and more people are coming to the region again."_

Full article is at this link www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=16091


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Churchill`s words at the end of the North Africa Campaign come to mind; "It is too soon to call this the beginning of the end. Total Victory is yet too distant. But it is CERTAINLY the end of the beginning..." Even with the funding reductions, significant progress IS being made. With the end of the "grace period" looming ever closer, and assuming ENFORCEMENT is pursued and /or compliance is forthcoming, a MAJOR "corner" will be turned. This "battle" is slowly if throughly being WON. Just hope the demand for continueing it doesn`t prematurelly fall away; so much remains to be done. And hope also that Wisconsin potting soil company gets on board- involving a financial profit with dredging the lake is a LONG TERM guarntee it will continue...


----------



## zaraspook

Crappie and bluegill bite was very good at GLSM over the weekend. However, if you weren't fishing very near the bottom, odds are you'd catch a few bluegills, only a rare dink crappie, and you'd probably say the NW winds shut down the bite. I caught 23 crappies Saturday and 18 bluegills, plus one small bass. 16 of the crappies were legal, most in the 10-10.5" range, but several 11"+. About 1/2 the bluegills were easily eating size. Sunday was slower but I only fished about 90 minutes to get 6 crappies, 4 were 10" to just under 12". Also caught 4 bluegills Sunday morning and a small bass.

Biggest crappie was 11.75. Most were whites but got into a run of blacks Saturday night at dusk. I used 1/16 oz jig heads and most of fish caught on tubes.......no meat (wax worms), but other anglers gunning for bluegills were tipping with wax worms with great success. After large numbers of small crappies last fall and this spring, those fish have matured and we have an outstanding class of 10-11.5" fish this fall. Next spring could be interesting........


----------



## Lowell H Turner

I can`t help but wonder if anyone you`ve heard of has fished the deeper dredged areas yet? And any idea how deep they are dredging?


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> I can`t help but wonder if anyone you`ve heard of has fished the deeper dredged areas yet? And any idea how deep they are dredging?


LHT.......Never have found a good source for GLSM dredging. I'm on SE quadrant of lake and no dredging activity in my area. I personally only witnessed one dredge at a location. You ask good questions but no source for answers.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Thank you for your info. And am sure SOMEONE knows. As have said before, when/ if the 'weeps'/ springs are dredged they WILL become the "HOTTEST" fishing spots in the entire lake, guarentee you, especially if the state permits cover being placed very close to them ! They are "fish magnets' especially during the summer and winter because of their constant flow of 56 degree heavily oxygenated water; adding cover will just be "icing' on the cake !!!


----------



## zaraspook

Still interest from the Wisconsin company interested in dredging GLSM for potting soil. Company is called Ag Conversions and apparently put on a public presentation last Saturday (10/1). They are the same company presenting a livestock manure conversion process. The Grand Lake Improvement Association has an article on their website at this link www.lakeimprovement.com/ag-conversions . If you click on the graphics to the right of the story, you can view more info on the process. No info that I could find about a firm commitment or timetable, but it sounds promising.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

TREMENDOUS news, sir !! Once the "private sector" comes into the picture with a realistic PROFITABLE plan in mind and the State gets interested (for ONCE a tax exemption may be JUSTIFIED !!) and the ball actually gets rolling, watch the $$$ start coming in. Am sure they will need property for a facility, along with a building and other equipment; would imagine there will also be a need for some local labor, plus consumables that hopefully will be purchased locally. Best of all, by presenting the opportunity for the local livestock farmers to SELL part of their livestock`s "by product' rather than just dumping the excess wastefully onto frozen fields they have given them the incentive to build or enlargen the required holding ponds. Again, we have already passed the age of "Can this or that be done?" We are now in the age of "Who has ALREADY DONE this or that and where do I find out how THEY did it and make myself some $$$ ?" Much more needs done, but compared to the situation 2 yrs ago, a "corner" has been turned...plus the fishing seems to be doing OK !! Might have to make a Spring fishing trip !


----------



## zaraspook

Crappie bite wasn't going on Saturday 10-8. Caught two on the morning with one over 10". Did chores thru the day but stopped a couple times for short breaks to test the bite. Nothing going on. Just before leaving the lake at 6:15PM fished again for 20 minutes. I caught 4 quick crappies, two were 10"+, then headed out.

Water temps had been trending the right direction........downward. But with all the daytime sun and warmer nightime temps, water temps are trending back up. Crappies will restart when we get another round of colder nights. Also caught 2 gills and an 11" bass.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Ah, but you escaped the fragrance of 'odar de la polecat', sir; seems to be slowwer fishing with the overcast weather. Enjoyed your post on the eagle sightings.


----------



## zaraspook

Lowell H Turner said:


> Ah, but you escaped the fragrance of 'odar de la polecat', sir; seems to be slowwer fishing with the overcast weather. Enjoyed your post on the eagle sightings.


Very true............avoided Pepe le pew this time. Appreciate your comment on the eagle sighting..............it was a privilege to witness, especially at short distance.


----------



## zaraspook

Ag Conversions put on a demo in Celina of its process to convert livestock poop to fertilizer. A short video of the process can be viewed on the Grand Lake Improvement Association's website. Process is simple, easy to understand......kind of like 9-9-9. Here's link to video www.lakeimprovement.com/video-ag-conversions


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Looks like someone`s getting ready to make SERIOUS $$$$$ and bring some JOBS to the local economy and buy property, put up a facility, buy local goods and supplies...I would HOPE the local and State Gov`ts give them a HUGE tax break in return for coming aboard. Once that "dirty" money starts flowing up out of the lake and the livestock "by product" STOPS flowwing INTO the lake have no doubt the improvement of the quality of the lake will gradually but relentlessly get better and BETTER...


----------



## zaraspook

I vow to forever cease giving grief to my Canadian friends and brethren to the north. That's a tough vow for me.......politically, some Canadian policies are so liberal I'll be gagging on my own silence. But, the RBC Blue Water Project has generously kicked in a $20,000 grant to the non-profit Grand Lake Restoration Commission to further efforts to improve GLSM and the watershed.

The RBC is the Royal Canadian Bank which sponsors water/watershed improvement efforts globally thru the RBC Blue Water Project. Since 2007, RBC has committed more than $28 million in single and multi-year grants over 380 organizations. Thanks, RBC. I wonder if I can switch my banking accounts across the border? 

More about the RBC Blue Water Project can be found at this link http://bluewater.rbc.com/about.php


----------



## Lowell H Turner

God Bless the Canadians! You have to give them this, THEIR financial markets DIDN`T have a "melt down" 3 yrs ago ! Maybe we should take some notes...Liberal? Yup. Socialist leaning? Borderline. Financially RESPONSIBLE? You better bet ! Generous? Quite so. (But DON`T get caught 10 meters inside their territorial waters without a Canadian fishing license ! They aren`t THAT generous !)


----------



## zaraspook

Hustled to GLSM Weds evening looking for an active crappie bite ahead of this front. Fished from 5:30PM 'til it was too dark to see my line about 6:50PM. A neighbor told me I was the 4th fisherman since noon to hit the spot I was headed to.......my hopes hot action cooled a bit. Pressed on and dangled my jig/grub near some cover and in the first 20 seconds lifted a nice 10" white onto the bank. Within 10 minutes, caught 3 with smallest a 9" white and figured I was into it. Two more in the next 10 minutes then a light shower started but was done 10 minutes later. The bite really cooled off, just a few bites and a rare fish. Moved to 4 other spots but zero fish and an infrequent hit.

Figuring I had maybe 15 minutes remaining of fishable light, it was back to the first hole, but I downsized the bait an opted for another color. Caught another 3-4 crappies and 3 bluegills as light faded, but bite was never the same as the opening quarter of an hour. In less than an hour and a half, the final tally was 12 crappies, 3 gills. 4-5 crappies were legal size, 3 over 10", and the biggest a 10.5 black. All but 3 of the crappie were whites. Best part......I satisfied my fishing urge.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Zaraspoon, by next spring it will only get better. Ever thought of placing cover after the "powers that be " dredge? Would be like a WHOLE NEW WORLD; kinda like going into the deep woods of Minnisota with no "OFF" applied...the fish might actually get "annoying".


----------



## zaraspook

I add "cover" year round, but only in my channel and from shore. For one guy adding cover to the main lake would be a lifelong project, but you're spot-on it would be great for fishing. The main lake is predominantly a big bath tub, and barren like the surface of the moon but without any craters. Because of the shallow nature, any cover over 3' tall would run the risk of being fodder for pleasure boat propellers when the water level falls all summer. Not that I'm on the lake that much, but I only viewed one dredge in action all year. I couldn't tell you where others were deployed.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Any idea if they will dredge the channels deeper? Actually think several of the channels are the former streams that flowwed into the lake. Cover placed just outside the mouths of those channels would be "ideal' if/ when they are dredged.


----------



## zaraspook

LHT.....I've never found a good source for dredging info. Periodicially I read reports of tonnage or cubic yards of silt removed, but info always comes from news media. I assume there is a plan, just not publicized. 

Crappie fishing was good Sunday and nice bluegills continue to hit like crazy. Good percentage of crappies are 10-11" chunks. I'm still looking for a 13"+ specimen his fall......I may have to cut an inch or two off the front end my tape measure to get a fish to the 13" mark.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

Am wondering if the "Lake Improvement" people would have any contacts? And as far as that elusive 13+"er, she`s in there somewhere, sir. Do you ice fish?


----------



## zaraspook

LHT........I frequent the ice.....have a weakness for extra-dry gin martinis on-the rocks. Nah, never got into hardwater fishing. It might happen someday but I wouldn't bet on it. Now if we had saugeye in GLSM, that could be a game-changer.

You're probably right, Lake Improvement guys would be a likely source. I've focused on trying to find meaningful contact in the state.


----------



## Lowell H Turner

It`s been my experience that for what ever reason a couple of wks after SAFE ice (5-6") usually do quite well suddenly, particularly if there`s been a good shad die off. because of low plankton counts often remaining shad will look for natural cover to consume the moss and algae growing on it; meanwhile the predators will simply gather round. Once the majority of the algae is gone...can be some very productive fishing, at the right time and places, especially dusk and dawn.


----------



## zaraspook

Report from the Battelle Institute in Columbus is out. Battelle was hired to analyze approx 75 proposals to improve GLSM water/algae issues. Some proposals focused on the lake....others are proposals for application within the watershed. Battelle says 6 proposals show promise for the lake and 8-10 options due merit for application in the watershed.

Some proposals are new but others are repeats......such as another alum treatment, dredging and commercialized dredging, rough fish removal(which they say will promote growth of aquatic vegetation), aeration concepts, and processing manure into fertilizer in the water shed. The Celina Daily Std story is reported at this link http://www.dailystandard.com/archive/story_single.php?rec_id=16408


----------



## Lowell H Turner

As always, excellent information. Hope the State and other "interested parties" will keep up the pressure to help the lake and surrounding watershed to improve and recover...


----------



## BuckeyeCatDaddy

Looking forward to getting up to GLSM this season!!!


----------

