# For all of those who fish out of Vermilion...



## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Fellow fisherman, I am just putting this out there to see how many members have seen and experienced what I have today and in the last few years out of the V:

Returning back to port on thurs, (with the bizzare rouge NE rollers with a SE wind) once again the little sailboats were out holding up the mouth of the river making it dangerous to navigate. Scooting around these boats as they attempted to tie themselves together right between the lights in the mouth of the river, I was pursued by one of their socalled instructors and scolded for travelling too fast past the sail boats out in the lake. Now we had SE winds 10 to 20 but NE rollers as high as 4 foot. I am trying to navigate and they have the river congested and he had the nerve to follow me to run his mouth. I, of course as him to come aboard so we could discuss the rules of the road and boaters saftey, but he scooted away. This situation is very unsafe for all who use the river. And very unsafe for the young people who are just learning about navigating on the water. Is this how we teach our youth to be safe? Then there were 5 other sailboats being towed up the river, but not in single file, in some sort of "V" pattern that consumed over half of the river.
I have been fishing the Vermilion river for 14 years now, and it is getting worse. Fishing Lake St. Clair, multiple ports along Lake Erie, and Lake Ontario, I have been around many of these Youth sailing clubs that are sponsored by the home yacht clubs. All of the others tow out in single file, go to the leeward side of the breakwall, and then breakup to start the sailing lessons. This provides safety for the kids learning to sail and leaves the rec boater with a free conscious because he was not forced to navigate a river in tight quarters with erratic, poorly supervised children recklessly attempting to sail up and down the river. It would be a devistating for something to happen to these kids because of poor decision making on the part of the coast guard, vermilion police, VYC, and these alleged sailing instructors who have also demonstrated their poor desion making.


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## harle96 (Aug 2, 2005)

Yes, I agree and have navigated thru their un-supervised events. I think its crap. I've had to come to a dead stop on many occasions, then I drifted my vessel in an un safe maner and had docked boats to watch for. They dart out from bank to bank while all the traffic is going North to South.

Doubt there is anything we can do.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

It is getting worse evey year. I yet seen a adult with them.


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## Bobinstow90 (Apr 13, 2006)

I rarely fish out of V so I have no knowledge about these events. That said, it sounds like an unsafe situation where someone could get hurt.

Why not contact the sponsoring yacht club and at least voice your concerns for the safety of the learning sailors. They might change something or review their safety standards for the learning class. That might help clear your mind and prevent an injury.

Good luck.


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## cjbrown (May 22, 2007)

Bobinstow90 said:


> I rarely fish out of V so I have no knowledge about these events. That said, it sounds like an unsafe situation where someone could get hurt.
> 
> Why not contact the sponsoring yacht club and at least voice your concerns for the safety of the learning sailors. They might change something or review their safety standards for the learning class. That might help clear your mind and prevent an injury.
> 
> Good luck.


To much money in those yacht clubs to even lend an ear to the average fisherman running his boat up their river.


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## JTRESS (Mar 28, 2008)

cjbrown said:


> To much money in those yacht clubs to even lend an ear to the average fisherman running his boat up their river.


AMEN to that, sort of like all the drunken fools at the Atwood lake yacht club that seem to get away with everything and anything...... money makes the right heads turn and eyes shut.


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## Jiggin4eyes (Mar 6, 2007)

Its also happening at 72nd. I went out Wednesday evening for Perch. About an hour before dark, close to 25 or 30 sailboats took up almost the whole river right inside the break wall (not sure where they launched). I seriously had to stop and wait for them to mosey along before I could head for the dock.. Are their special rules for sail boats? Do they have right of way, or do the same rules apply?


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## 1morecast (Jun 13, 2007)

as a past sailboater now motor boater i can sympathise with all of you. But the rules I'm pretty sure are sailboats have right away over moterboats. unless a sailboat has his sails down and is under motor power.....then its all equall. I'm a windsurfer and can't tell you how many times out on the lake i get some guy in a +26 footer bearing right down on me expecting me to get out of his path ow way....sailboater can only move as fast as the wind will take them, and aslo can only go in certain directions due to the wind direction, hence the right of way they have.....its all baout safety.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

but 22 juveniles should not be sailing out of the river in heavy boat traffic...


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## 1morecast (Jun 13, 2007)

maybe that needs to be adressed with the sailing class instructors then.....unfortunately there's more pople out using our water ways then ever before...and there are rules that need to be obderved....


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## sammyo (Apr 14, 2004)

Call the Coast Guard and see what THE RULES OF THE ROAD ARE. I believe they are not aloud to block a harbor entrence.If they have the right of way so be it. If they don't notify the proper people.


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## brick (Sep 17, 2007)

a sailboat under sail has the right of way. They must avoid any vessel at anchor.
pretty much the rule worldwide.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

brick said:


> a sailboat under sail has the right of way. They must avoid any vessel at anchor.
> pretty much the rule worldwide.


Sorry brick, you are incorrect.. here is a quote form the rules of the road from the U>S> COAST GUARD r/e lane traffic. (like in and out of a river)

" A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane. "

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule10.htm


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Here is the rule in a Narrow channel: (the river)
RULE 9
NARROW CHANNELS
(a) (i) [Inld] A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable. 
(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. [Inld]

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

(e) 

(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d). (i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking, the power-driven vessel intending to overtake another power-driven vessel shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c) and take steps to permit safe passing. The power-driven vessel being overtaken, if in agreement, shall sound the same signal and may, if specifically agreed to take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt, she shall sound the danger signal prescribed in Rule 34(d). 

(ii) This rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.

(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(e).

(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel.

<-- Previous Rule --- Next Rule -->


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## silverbullet (Apr 14, 2004)

Memorial day weekend, that Sunday to be exact, I had the couple buying my boat out for a test ride. Once I saw the little buggers on the river I kept control of the boat until in the lake. I was ok for the most part until we got around the corner just past the condos. Then things got a bit dicey, lots of nuetral/forward/nuetral on the drive. The group of sailboats that I was dealing with were very good kids, I even had one take his boat all the way to the rocks before turning back across the river to allow me to get ahead of him. Out of the probably 10 to 15 i worked through, one cut it close on my stern and that was it. The Vermilion PD was at the mouth and never even gave me a second look even though I had to increase speed to get ahead of the lil boats. 
I don't agree with the fella following after someone though. That can be rough opening with a confused sea and he should know that more than anyone.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, I am suggesting to the group to take pictures of this and forward them to me or post them, I am taking it to the Home Office of the Coast Guard. Too much politics here on the local Coast Guard level here. This is unsafe for these kids and I do not want this on a fisherman's mind, or worse: imagine being the parents spending a part of your summer every evening visiting your kid in children's hospital because they were poorly taught or managed by the yacht club. Perhaps we need to go to the media now...


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## brick (Sep 17, 2007)

when I was taught to sail some 25 years ago thats what we were told. Thanks for the research prowler. enlightening.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Brick, I think this is the problem, the rules of the road were written simply to avoid accidents, injury, or worse yet... fatality. On the open water, you are completely correct. give way to a vessel under sail. We have kids being taught to push the limits and as you have read violate rules at the risk of their own saftey. I have recieved complaints from boats navigating the river about having to throw it in reverse quickly and knocking down ususpecting passengers on their vessel to avoid a collision with one of these small boats under sail in the river.


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## MDisbrow (Jul 14, 2006)

It's a little inaccurate to say that there is never an adult with them. I know for a fact that's not true. I know many of the people who work sail camp for the vbc, and have 6 or 7 siblings/cousins/etc. who have learned to sail there. It's a great way for kids to learn how to sail.

Now, it can be without a doubt frustrating as a boater trying to leave or enter the river, but in my opinion, regardless of the actual rules, it is your job to yield to the kids, and the couple of instructors who have the tough task of keeping young kids learning to sail, in line. 

I know that's not the way it's written, but I guess my stance on this issue here is, you know how much fun the lake can be, and how easily kids can be scared away or turned off, and I just think the mature way to handle it is cut the kids, and their instructors some slack. The most important part of this is that the kids are safe and enjoy themselves.

I can't ever remember any accidents or injuries there. The kids run into stuff all the time, so if you're going to get upset about that, maybe you should just stay out of the mouth of the river for an extra 15 mins and fish, and avoid having to deal with it.

Personally, it's rather entertaining to watch the kids try to learn how to sail. I know when I was a little kid, I didn't attend sailcamp there, but I ran into crap all the time in my Laser, and I'm sure I frustrated some people, but I know that without that experience at a young age, I would never be as comfortable as I am now on the lake. These kids will have lots of great memories and enjoy the lake for the rest of their life. And that's important to all of us, whether you sail or not.

I apologize if I came off rude to any of the posters here. I tried very hard to be polite and not step on any toes. I can understand your frustration, but I can't agree with your complaints.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Here is the problem... it is unsafe. And... against the rules... There are more boats going in and out of the Vermilion river than ever. I have only been there for 14 years now, but I know the traffic has stepped it up. Like I said earlier in this post, I have been around several other youth sailing programs from Lake St. Clair to Lake Ontario, to the Chesapeak bay, and every other one I have been around tows their kids out to open water so not to impede the flow of traffic in and out of the port. I am in the process of gathering pictures of this procedure for OOYC in NY. Now, I have seen kids sail around in the Genesee and in the Grandside the breakwall, but that is very different than what we have at the Vermilion river. And if you think an adult is one who is just creeping out of puberty, then OK, they had an adult. But if he thinks that I am in the wrong while they get 5 boats wide in the middle of the river right between the beginnings of the two walls heading in, then he is unaware of the rules of the road and is educating by example that this is acceptable practice, and it is not. Perhaps the rift that occurs between powerboaters and sailboaters is simply taught in the yacht clubs when they are kids and they simply do not know better. If you want to watch them sail, watch them in the lake. Not in what it termed "a narrow channel"......


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## tph (Jun 15, 2008)

I moved my boat to Vermilion this year and have been out 15 times or so. I have yet to run in to the groups of young sailors but I have seen them preparing to go out. This is a crowded marina and everyone need to back off now and then. What about the guy in the 50 footer changing direction to park along side the Red Clay Rest? He takes up the entire channel as he maneauvers to park. That is unsafe unless everyone in sight stops what they are doing. Coming in last night at ten, there was a guy in a 44' something or other sale boat trying to parallel park next to the Vermilion Yacht Club. He turned completely around three times as he attempted to squeeze his yacht into a small space. No problem. I stopped and waited for what seemed like ten minutes until he got situated. When I eventually run into the sailors I'll do the same. I always have ten or so minutes to spare and refuse to get stressed out when I am on the water. I learned to sale in Racine and I am sure I drove the local Yacht Club members nuts until I got the hang of it.

I think what is particularily unsafe for these kids are some of the boaters (pleasure and fishing) who don't give way, maybe drink too much, or move too quickly through the channel.

As far as money and politics in Vermilion, I don't know about that. I keep my little fishing boat at Romps and find I am surrounded by down to earth, normal people like myself. Personally, I enjoy everything about the Vermilion area.

I've just found this site when looking for good fishing reports and this is my first post. Perhaps when I run into to the Lasers and such I'll have a different opinion.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well. welcome to Vermilion. I have been here for 14 years and I never left. I have met some very good people here. I am sure you will feel the same.


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## tph (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks. And for a quick update... Fished 27 fow from 7:30 - 10:00 last night. 8 quick walleye on bare naked and cranberry crusher. 60 - 80' back. First night I decided not to troll in close. No hogs, but very fast action. Fished about straight off of Sherrod Park.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Update: the harassment continues on the fisherman. First, A fisherman was verbally attacked for passing a group of these small boats in the river being towed ( in a V formation). Was told that you cannot pass a sailboat. Now I read my rules of the road again, and all I found is something about overtaking a vessel WITH CAUTION! I guess if you ignore the other rules of the road, then that entiltles you to write your own....


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Here are just the beginning of some of the photos being compiled with the sailboats sailing in the river which is a narrow channel. not how the block the river of potential traffic either way. this is during the week,more will follow...


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## baiter10 (Jun 10, 2008)

Hey prowler, i experienced this just yesterday  idling, stopping, idling, stopping, for most of the trip up there river because they wouldnt moved off to the side until we hit the rocks walls and they finally lined up and went to the side. Rather annoying. I agree that somone needs to get a handle on this. The kids dont even care either, they all act like they dont care. Phew! i feel better now. lol. If it happens again ill get you some pics.


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## kruggy1 (Feb 6, 2008)

What I dont understand is that just about every time I go out the sheriff or PD is sitting in there boat just watchin or they are posted in front of the breakwall. If anything ever happend god forbid I think its just as much there fault for not saying anything.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

The kids do not care because they are being taught not to care. This why I am concerned. It is not for you to have to pay for a dinged prop, or worse. That it not how the rules of the road are to be used. Take the pics, post em here, I can access them when we make are written proposal to Coast Guard home office about this saftey issue...


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

there were doing it at edgewater today too,small sailboats playin in the exits from the harbor,going every which way ...unsupervised kids in the boats.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

It continued today...








pushing boats up against the wall jepardizing their props...


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## Battlefish (Oct 1, 2007)

i haven't been fishing very long and been a member on this site even less. But I find it hard to believe a group of this nature is not more aware on the rules of boating and navigation.

the sail boats can only sail angles to the wind-usually around 40-45 max if there is a breeze. in the channel its obvisouly blocked which is taking more 
time. a sail boat always has right of way while under sail except for commercial traffic. 

a few years ago i was racing my sail boat and had been on my east bound-down wind course from cleveland for hours when a Bayliner appeared in front of me with his boards out. he started waving me off but at the point of sail, i had 2 choices-harden up and try to pass in front of his boat or ease off and pass behind-and take out his boards. he must of realized it finally and put on some throttle to allow me get to behind him tangle free. he recognized the situation and corrected it.

i have been following this posting for a week now and find it disheartening that a group of grown men have so much time to criticize a group trying to bring in new interest to boating.

as for the boats in cleveland, it is junior cleveland race week which has about 40 boats from all over the state competing. they got 6 races in today i'm told. not bad for a bunch of children.

as for their instructors-they are trained by a national organization and usually carry a professional type statur in the sailing world. i'm confient they aren't teaching the children to intentionally interfer. those boats are to easy to tip over.


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## mkormos23 (Nov 29, 2007)

Battlefish,
I think your missing the point.
There under sail in a channel.

That's the no,no.

If it's in the lake, we all know the rules, but that is not the case.
There's no sailing in the channel for a reason.


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## Buckeye Ron (Feb 3, 2005)

Who has the right away with a sail boat under sail vs a boat that is drift fishing?

Thanks,
ron


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Battlefish,
These Grown Men are concerned about the saftey of all. Especially the children. They are being taught incorrectly about siling in a narrow channel. This miseducation from the beginning results in a rift between motor and sailboaters. If you have been following this post for weeks then you should take the time to actually read the rules of the road. This teenagers you call instructors were to trained as in depth as the 100 ton Great Lake Master Licensed Merchant Marines who are certified on the rules of the road. The purpose for these rules is to avoid collision. These rules are about common sense. Sailing in a narrow channel forcing boats to suddenly compensate and risk collision when it is all avoidable by what I have seen in other harbors across Lakes Erie, Ontario, and St Clair, along with the Chesapeake Bay with their students demostrates a certain level of arrogance by people such as yourself who do not see the potential injury to these kids. Please do not be quick to criticize a group of concerned citizens who actually know the rules of the road and would like to see them implemented in this harbor.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Ron, if your motor is off, you are a drift. They are the vessel in control, therefore they are responsible for avoiding collision. If you motor is running, the boat under sail has the right away.

Here is Rule 18 from the USCG:

RULE 18
RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN VESSELS
Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require: 

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: 

a vessel not under command; 
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; 
a vessel engaged in fishing; 
a sailing vessel. 
(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: 

a vessel not under command; 
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; 
a vessel engaged in fishing. 
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of: 

a vessel not under command; 
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver. 
(d)


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## Buckeye Ron (Feb 3, 2005)

Thanks, theprowler,
I was SW of West Sister one day and had one come right up our back, we were drift fishing for eyes and man you talk about wondering what was going to happen. Couldn't say for sure but it looked to be a 35 to 40 footer. It cut away at the very last minute. Maybe didn't see us?? It was scary because we didn't hear it coming !!!


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, its hard to say why it happened, but they should have had a lookout, and obviously they made a manuver to avoid an accident. Some sailors are very, very good, and they may have know the limits of their vessel and wanted to test them.. That would shake you up a bit though.. I was in a heavy fog several years ago about 8 miles out of the V and saw something on radar coming up on me... but silent.. here it was one of those "tall ships" from that tour on the great lakes.. What a sight that was coming out of the fog!!


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

mkormos23 said:


> Battlefish,
> I think your missing the point.
> There under sail in a channel.
> 
> ...


I'm no expert, nor am I a sailor......but please explain this one to me? Where is it written that one can not be under sail in a channel.....particularly if the vessel has no other means of propulsion such as a small sail boat??

I think this thread is as bad as the mazurics one.....100 people with diferent opinions on how things SHOULD be done and 90 of them are neither corect or incorect.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Boss302, please before you question this thread, read the rules of the road in reguards to navigating in a narrow channel. This is about the Vermilion River. This is about the USCG rules of the road and the importance of how difficult it is to avoid youngster learning how to sail and how they are being taught how to navagate a busy channel compared to other yacht clubs. If these kids were not blocking the narrow channel and daily risking collision with other vessels then this would not be an issue. Participants in this thread and concerned citizens that have come to me ARE experts and proffesionally licensed. We are showing in pictural form violations of the rules of the road so that someone does not get hurt.


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

Can't argue with a deaf man or discuss logic with a mule....................You see youngsters in YOUR way they see crazy impatient guys in big motorboats. 

By the way, I've been folowing the thread and do not believe a comon powerboat would be considered limited in its ability to manuver within this channel--particularly a channel wide enough for several boats to idle side by side. (see your own photos)

Some may argue that your decision to overtake and pass these slower boats is what could constitute a hazard......Akin to passing a tractor on a two lane road.

I also have encountered sail boats in tight places. And I've also been all but run over by pack trollers and others. You should join one of these sailing clubs and take a class or two. You may be right or you may learn some respect and patience.

Oh, and please show me where it states that one should not be under sail in a channel. Are these little sailboats expected to row their way to the open lake? I asked a question first then gave my two cents--which was not questioning the thread


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

This is just the beginning of the pics, I am here to gather hundrends of pics before the end of the season from members of this forum who are concerned enough to want to do something about the problem. Local politics are clouding the issue, USCG home office will not care. That is fine if you do not care for the saftey of these kids. I do. Think of it this way: You are in charge of 20 kids learning to rollerblade, you are at the convient store on one side of the vermilion bridge and the practice lot is at romps, what do you do? let them roller blade down route 6 because "pedestrians have the right away!" Do even see the danger? A kid is going to get hurt, someone who uses this river for recreation is going to hurt them because they are SAILING IN A NARROW Channel. When I am in New York again I will take photos of a yacht club that cares about the children they are responsible for by towing them out of the busy channel and letting them go in the lake. Everyone is careful around these youngsters and mutual respect is had by the numerous Licensed users of the port because no recklessness is demonstrated. Sailing is ok, I learned to sail on Pymatuning 25 years ago with a church group. That does make me want to hand over my kids to someone who will put them in harms way.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

boss302 said:


> Can't argue with a deaf man or discuss logic with a mule....................You see youngsters in YOUR way they see crazy impatient guys in big motorboats.
> 
> By the way, I've been folowing the thread and do not believe a comon powerboat would be considered limited in its ability to manuver within this channel--particularly a channel wide enough for several boats to idle side by side. (see your own photos)
> 
> ...


In regards to your comment about there being room to navigate, Please look at the photos, The kids sail back and forth from one side of the channel to the other, forcing boats underway (traveling downstream, mind you) the navagate dangerously near the rocks of the breakwall, which if you are not aware, an area that is defined as being limited in manuveurablity. I have talked to someone who dinged a prop who had to pull his boat and pay out of pocket 150 bucks for the repair. 

Oh, by the way, We who drive tractors on the road pull over on occassion to permit the slower traffic to go by. (I make hay down here)....


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

theprowler said:


> Oh, by the way, We who drive tractors on the road pull over on occassion to permit the slower traffic to go by. (I make hay down here)....


 When and where it is safe and convenient to do so....just as these kids should do or should be taught. 

I agree there are safer ways to get out of harbor, and improving safety is always a good cuase. Perhaps a polite and cordial meeting with the sail instructors would go further that the finger pointing and complaining route shown in this thread. Or, mabe a few professional captians should voulenteer to attend a class and take part of a boating and harbor safety discussion with the class. Even consider taking the young salors on an annual fishing trip to foster a sence of community.

If you (and your expert friends) treat true oposition in the maner you have treated my honest and open questioning you are in for an uphill battle...even without local politics. 

Furthermore, your rollerblading example is off base...this is more like a boardwalk with kids learning to ride bikes amidst seniors out for a stroll, teens on their roller blades, bikes and skate boards, and families walking with a stroller or the dog.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

boss302 said:


> When and where it is safe and convenient to do so....just as these kids should do or should be taught.
> 
> I agree there are safer ways to get out of harbor, and improving safety is always a good cuase. Perhaps a polite and cordial meeting with the sail instructors would go further that the finger pointing and complaining route shown in this thread. Or, mabe a few professional captians should voulenteer to attend a class and take part of a boating and harbor safety discussion with the class. Even consider taking the young salors on an annual fishing trip to foster a sence of community.
> 
> ...


Do you use this harbor???
This has all been attempted my friend, The nice approach got us nowhere for the last several years. There has been numerous close calls, and the reason this has escalated was not fingerpointing from the pleasure or charterboats.... They would be negotiating around the kids and were being verbally attacked from the raft by some teenager about being careful!!! When this happened again this year to me, i cordially invited the young man onboard so I could go over the rules of the road. ( I carry a copy inboard, like the USGC reccomends) and my example IS correct, if you are in a powered automoblile you need to avoid a pedestrian while you follow the RULES of the ROAD. But you need to yeild to the pedestrian to avoid an accident, it is the same... The gloves did not come off after numerous logical avenues were conducted, not by me, but citizens of the town who I am close. If you zip over in your raft to lecture me and you are putting the persons you are responsible for in harms way. (I hope some of the parents see these pics) and the yacht club doesnt think that it is a problem, then the USCG will. I have seen people fall down from a standing position in a vessel that had to quickly hit reverse engines to miss a child under sail. When passing a slower sailor in the river, an individual infront of me was reprimanded by one of the teens for "violating the rules" apparently the new rule is you cannot pass a vessel under sail matter what.. This is why it has escalated.... apparently you have not had the pleasure of dealing with these kind folks involved....


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

Good luck on your quest to provide a safer river harbor for all users. 

I believe the USCG and local authorites may hold a diferent interpretation of the rules sited and the situation at hand. Politics may be a play, but so is a general set of rules being interpreted for literaly thousands of specific situations.

I'd be ticked if I were hollered at for doing what I felt was the best in a situation, but then again (like the mazuricks post) 10 people have 10 diferent views of what is best or apropriate.


I still don't know where it is written that "it's a no no to sail in a channel"

Good luck to you


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## Battlefish (Oct 1, 2007)

no. you and prowler are wrong in your understanding the rules. they have just as much right as you but the burden is on you since you have a motor.
the attachment above even says 

the local agency's on the east side run their programs from the beach and another from the river. both within view of the coast guard,sheriff or odnr. the even sail by the stone dock and Morton salt dock.

the boat can only sail upwind by crossing back and forth. open up and learn their method and you both can anticipate their next move. 
the pictures show several Avon type rafts also towing the kids.


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## lskater (Mar 19, 2007)

You can't argue with blowboaters. A large percentage of them feel that they own the water and fishermen are just an inconveniance to them. I always felt that they were the boats PETA people buy or go out in. You can bet these kids are told that they have the right away, the big bad powerboats have to get out of YOUR way and telling that to a teenager is like giving them permission to get in your way. The most inconsiderate people on earth,blowboaters!


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## reel (Dec 15, 2004)

No matter how badly one of these kids behaves or violates the rules of the road, if a power boater and one of these sailboaters collide in a harbor and there is an injury. The power boater better have more than $1 million insurance coverage.
...


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Battlefish said:


> no. you and prowler are wrong in your understanding the rules. they have just as much right as you but the burden is on you since you have a motor.
> the attachment above even says
> 
> the local agency's on the east side run their programs from the beach and another from the river. both within view of the coast guard,sheriff or odnr. the even sail by the stone dock and Morton salt dock.
> ...


Thats OK battlefish, here is the deal. I have the rules of the road, talked to the USCG outside of this port and they voiced that the most important thing is saftey. This is unsafe. I am not going to get hurt, the dhildren will, If you think it is right to sacrifice a childs welfare for the betterment rights of those who sail, I am sorry. We Licensed members interpret the rules slightly differently. By the way, the police have voiced their concern but were told to shut up by local politics. The sheriff is there for homeland security only. The USCG does a fine job of siting on their hands. Until someone is hurt. And when it happens, this is one of the resorces that will be accessed in defense of those involved showing that there were people who did care and wanted to do something to prvent injury. I am simply sorry you do not care about the kids...


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

Prowler I was peasefully done with this thread.....However Where do you get off claiming repeatedly that people with differing views are against the safety of these kids!!!! 

nonsence like this is why you are falling on deaf ears


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Oh, yes and of course my interpretation of the rules of the road are just wrong because they disagree with yours. Well, with 24 years of navagating the Atlantic ocean, great lakes, and western rivers, (without an incident) , that is how I interpret the rules. If you see rule #18, what would happen if 20 fisherman turn their 25 to 30 foot boats sideways in the river and start fishing? No one would tolerate that because it would be unsafe for those who are trying to navigate the narrow channel. Logic is a terrible thing....


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## Islander26 (Sep 25, 2007)

I also hold a USCG Master license and have over 35 years experience on Lake Erie.I have witnessed this type of behavior not only in the river but on the open waters.Prowler you are 100% right, i will take some pics if possiable. I do not want the sailboats off the river,but there needs to be something done, the pictures say it all. ( They need to learn common courtesy and or respect)


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

I was on the same page with you until you showed your professionalism again.......

good luck with your quest


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Islander26 said:


> I also hold a USCG Master license and have over 35 years experience on Lake Erie.I have witnessed this type of behavior not only in the river but on the open waters.Prowler you are 100&#37; right, i will take some pics if possiable. I do not want the sailboats off the river,but there needs to be something done, the pictures say it all. ( They need to learn common courtesy and or respect)


I want nothing more than the kids to be safe, and no one having to repair a prop or be involved in an accident which will emotially hurt the persons involved and perhaps some bad publicity for the town.
And please feel free to post the pics here so we can collect data for when the USCG requests pictoral data or if the inevetable occurs and there is an incident.....


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

boss302 said:


> Prowler I was peasefully done with this thread.....However Where do you get off claiming repeatedly that people with differing views are against the safety of these kids!!!!
> 
> nonsence like this is why you are falling on deaf ears


You never did answer the question regarding your use of this river. Do you reguarly navigate this port? I think if you did you would understand.


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## AQUA KNOT (Apr 20, 2008)

It's kinda like buying a kid a new set of roller blades and telling him to go practice out on rt.20. Yea yea, that's it!!!!


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## another dagos buy (Sep 24, 2007)

Returning back to port on thurs, (with the bizzare rouge NE rollers with a SE wind) once again the little sailboats were out holding up the mouth of the river making it dangerous to navigate. Scooting around these boats as they attempted to tie themselves together right between the lights in the mouth of the river, I was pursued by one of their socalled instructors and scolded for travelling too fast past the sail boats out in the lake. Now we had SE winds 10 to 20 but NE rollers as high as 4 foot.
NARROW CHANNELS
(a) (i) [Inld] A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable. 
(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound *with a following current *shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound *against the current *shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. [Inld]

prowler, point one, you were returning to port you said, and these vessels blocked your entrance what were you to do to aid in BOTH you and the CHILDREN that you noticed. were you to drive by them and hinder there SAFETY by tring to tie up as to expedite there removal to safe harbor or dock or should you have " proceeding upbound against the current shall *hold *as necessary to permit safe passing.

point two you even said that their were "bizzare rouge NE rollers with a SE wind" and "SE winds 10 to 20 but NE rollers as high as 4 foot." and where do you want the CHILDREN to tie up for SAFTEY and i quote you again "open water so not to impede the flow of traffic in and out of the port".

"24 years of navagating the Atlantic ocean, great lakes, and western rivers, (without an incident) , that is how I interpret the rules." and that means that you learned everything you know in a perfect cenerio and then applied it to the dangers that were before you when you were in the open seaswith 40 foot swells instead of 4 footers. Did your instructor teach you to tie up your vessel in heavy seas for the safety of the other boaters or did the insructor teach you to git into calmer water for the safety of the INDIVIDUAL (CHILDREN). geez man, there were 4 footers your complaining about children in maybe 14 foot SAILboats (not POWERboats) taking refuge behind a brakewall and in front of a "narrow passage" and you want to complain about a dinged prop (at least 3x's you brought it up once with a picture.), thats right you navigated in the open ocean took all of your classes learned from your mistakes (unless you are my wife,she never makes mistakes, i know you have made navigational mistakes), and these kids, yes some kids pay over $300 to LEARN how to sail. that INCLUDES navigation rules.

question for you prowler, (i wont even get into Trample the weak, hurdle the dead quote that you put on your posts) someone asks you to teach them how to fish do you teach them how to navigate first? be honest! this class DOES.

did you know all the answers already because your frinds have already told you this "numerous logical avenues were conducted, not by me, but citizens of the town who I am close" if you are listening to your friends they may not always be right. example one you are giving a bad name to the Vermilion Yaght Club they do not give sailing lessons. the Vermilion Boat Club does though and im sure if you donated your time to teach these kids that they cannot sail in the river. you still have not answered boss' question where does it say in usgs regulation that they are not allowed to sail in the river? I WANT THAT QUESTIONED ANSWERED. oh by the way yes i live here (38 yrs) been on a POWERboat for 30 of them owned one for 5 years

i will be more than happy to debate this subject further if you like and if you like i have 5 family member that have taken this class and would be more than willing to answer any questions that you have about it. they have even tauight me a few things but wait i dont have 24 years of experience like you and couldnt possible know as much as you.


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## Don's Joy (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm a little curious, are we so sidetracked that we are overlooking the safety of these children for the sake of the "Rules of the road". It may be permissible to sail in a narrow channel, however do we realy what to further complicate this issue by allowing 15 to 20 sailboats (with youngsters at the helm) to congest this narrow passage. Open water would seem to be more appropriate and safe arena for practice. Children do not always realize the consequeses of their actions in challenging a powerboat. The result might be a serious injury of a child and a major trauma for the operator of the powerboat. I am concerned for safety of these children when the boat club sends these young sailors out in the heavy current following the storms. It took the efforts of 5 or 6 people to dock the charter boats at Captains Corner that day. These are professional Charter Boat Captains with many years experience. Imagine trying to navigate through 5 - 10 of these little sailboats under these conditions. Something needs to be done! A little COMMON SENSE should be applied here. A compromise on all sides protect all concerned. I've been a boater for over 35 years and must confess that I'm a nervous wreck when faced with all these sailboats covering both sides of the river


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

another **** buy, 

I seen quite a bit of rambling, but as hard as I looked in your post, I seen nothing close to a solution. If I may paraphase you statement, it seems you basically are saying, "too bad, these kids are going to sail from one side of the river to the other and tie up navigation and that is the way it is..because they spent 300 bucks..." 

Once again, the people I have the pleasure to teach to fish, I NAVIGATE the vessel in and out of the narrow channel, safely. When you teach some one to drive to you take them out in traffic immediately? No, you move to a lot so they can learn safely with the danger of other vehicles. (That logic thing is tough isn't it?)

The rules of the road are written for the purpose of saftey. This situation is not safe. Officials in the town are sitting on their hands because it is another example of the poor politics in town.

I started this thread to collect data for submission to central office.
Additionally this will be a collection of evidence for when the inevetable occurs and a child in a sailboat is hurt, we can show that we were trying to remedy the unsafe situation.

Yes, I have navigated out of many ports and shared the channels with many kids learning to sail in small sailing vessels. (I believe I have mentioned those waters about 20 times now) And this is the only Narrow Channel that I have expirenced this "risky display" of recklessness with poor supervision or decision making.
Once again, RULE 18:

(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: 

a vessel not under command; 
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; 
a vessel engaged in fishing. 

If I am in a motor boat and by rule must stay below 5mph, and there is heavy current and high winds, then I am restricted in my ability to maneuver.

And since you did not see it earlier in this thread RULE 9:

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.


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## ALWAYSNETIN (Feb 18, 2008)

Finally Someone Else Who's Studied The Rule Book And Understands The Meaning Of The Rules.the Coast Guard Doesn't Seem To Enforce Them Much Altough They Should A Little More!


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Thanks Capt. Tony,
If this situation was not dangerous for those involved, I would not be doing this. But being so many users of this website enjoy the waters off of Vermilion, I found it wise to collect data here.


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## another dagos buy (Sep 24, 2007)

lets not ramble lets take it one step at a time
rule 18 states and i quote

RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN VESSELS
Except where Rules *9, 10, and 13 otherwise require*: 

is this stating that this rule superseeds those rules or visa versa
you keep going to paragraph b were you not under power when you are trying to come into port. if you were than rule 18 paragraph a pertain not b

now you are in the channel with a sailbaot under way you are navigating against the current and the children are trying to tie up to a tow vehicle, by the way we wont go into that rule yet, that is going with the current. who has the right of way. rule 9 paragraph (a)(ii) ans i quote

Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. *The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing*.

but you want to go to paragraph b which superceeds a not saying that the kids shouldnt obey the rules but you even saw and knew what is going on. did you follow all of the rules of navigation.

what im trying to say is lets all try yo get along. this so-called teenager was out there trying to protect a bunch of children and you want him to climb aboard your vessel so you can teach him some rules of navigation. you are contradicting yourself.

where does it say in usgs regulation that they are not allowed to sail in the river?


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

You are not suppose to tie up a NARROW CHANNEL to raft sailboats together. 
Like I said before, If a bunch of 30 foot boats all turned sidways and drifted in the river, according to the rules you quoted, that would be OK. Well, I know its not and it would not be tolerated.
You DO NOT BLOCK THE ENTRANCE TO A PORT to raft boats. This was an intentional procedure that has been seen many times. UNSAFE. UNACCEPTABLE. You call it a river, but it is also A Narrow Channel. 
That is why I am taking it to Central office and let them handle it. 
As I have said before, the procedures that are being demonstrated by the sail club are unsafe. Period. I have voiced my concerns in other manners and I run into people like you who know everything because you are involved in the yacht club. I do not want to see anyone get hurt. I do not care about local politics, so I will continue to collect data, video, photos and submit it to the Coast Guard HQ and let them make a ruling. If they rule in fvor of the yacht club, fine. When a child get hurt, it will be on them, not the other parties involved. If an accident does occur this summer, that too will go into the submission. 
So, contiue to tall the children to sail from one side of the narrow channel to the other and I will hope no one gets hurt. 
I quoted the rules that apply for saftey sake, and you quoted some rules in an attempt to justify an unsafe situation.
How many times to I need to mention Rule 18? It states sailboats? I was under the understanding that was a boat that sailed. with sails...


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

My purpose is not to change anybody who thinks that putting these kids at risk in harms way is acceptable. You feel that way, I am sorry, but I have made my statements and quated the rules of the road and made the simple point that the rules of the road were written to avoid injury. What is happening in the Vermilion River is an accident waiting to happen.
This post was placed to collect data, communicate with other concerned citizens who use the river, and submit the data for central office to be aware, so when an accident does occur, I know my mind is at rest about the scenerio. Why do certain people attack the messenger? I do not want to rewrite the rules like some others that I have heard in the past on the river.
I want the governing body to rule on the situation, after they recieve enough evidence.


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## Don's Joy (Jun 17, 2008)

The rules seem to point to "a" sailboat having the "right of way". The case here is "many" sailboats in close proximity. This is what is causing so much concern. If you question any of the boaters using "our" river, I'm sure you would discover that most consider this as a dangerous situation that can be avoided. A group of children (some appear to be less than 9 or 10 years of age) "playing" in their quest to get to the lake completely obstruct passage. I use the term "playing" because I've seen them using paddles, tiller manipulation and rocking back and forth as a means of propellant. They are just having a good time. They are however, creating a dangerous condition for the other boats attempting to use "our" river. I, for one, am grateful that one of the "instructors" has responded to these concerns. This indicates that the Boat Club and the Sailing Club is aware of our concerns and do not seem to be concerned. If an accident should occur (God forbid) I think this thread may be a source of defense. Not a single one of us, from either side of this issue, wants to see a child hurt. But think of it from the other side. The one who hurts this child will be faced with a tremendous lawsuit and face many years of pain and suffering also. Limiting the number of sailboats released at one time or towing them (single file) on one side of the river would seem to be applying a little common sense to avoid any of these problems.


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## another dagos buy (Sep 24, 2007)

i understand that the sailboats are not supposed to tie up the channel. no vessel is supposed to tie up the channel including the vessel that is dredging the river. it is a cluster evertime there is traffic that goes by it as well but is that ok? it must be because it is benefiting you in some way.you said that it was dangerouse to navigate under those conditions. dont you think it was for those kids too. did you want them to go out into the 4' waves. what i am getting at here is that we hear about rude and unruley behavior all the time whether it is out in the lake or in a narrow channel. why cant we just act like adults on the water, try to help other people and maybe sometimes forgive people for some of the mistakes they make or have made. i forgive you for trying to take an instructor away from the kids during a tough time for everyone to navigate.

a couple of other points i would like to follow up on that you have mentioned.
i am not nor do i ever want to be affiliated with the boat club. i do not agree with everthing that it stands for.

them playing by using there ruders to propell themselves is not a game. it is a way to help them get out of harms way or to safety. rocking back and forth is also a way of propulsion it fills their sails and propells them foward. 

"How many times to I need to mention Rule 18? It states sailboats? I was under the understanding that was a boat that sailed. with sails..." is this your answer to my question of where does it state that sail boats are not alowed to sail in a river? i see no where where it says that a sail boat cannot navigate under sail in a river if it is its only means of propulsion.

i do also agree that it is sometimes unsafe what they do. but i cope with it myself. that is why when i see them i avoid them or avoid a situation by staying clear of it. if i wanted to do something about it then I MYSELF would go to the souce (Vermilion Boat Club) and exspress my concerns. do not always trust what others have told you. a sincere phone call or showing up in person can sometimes do wonders. and maybe bring the pictures with you to the boat club as evidence of your concern. you never know maybe the might make changes and agree with YOU.


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## another dagos buy (Sep 24, 2007)

im sorry for attacking the messenger. but my concern is that we are again going to take another what i believe benefit away from children. i dont want that to happen. im sorry that you donnot think that everytime that you go out in any vessel that you are at risk. even as an experienced navigator every time you go out into a boat you are at a greater risk than if you stayed on dry land. that is not to say that at times these kids are at a higher risk but what im saying is use even beter judgement when you are around them. 

im asking YOU to go to the source. YOU to present your evidence to them. do you think that your mind would be even clearer if you did that while waiting for all of the political b.s. to happen at the usgs. dont forget there is politics there as well. how will you feel if you submited everything to the usgs and something happened while you were waiting for a response. it would maybe take a half hour of your time to drive down there and talk to someone. or call them first. there number is in the book here it is 967-6634.

look i love to fish as much as anybody. i love our river and our great lake as much as anybody. i love to boat as much as anybody. and i would not like to take that away from anybody that is showing interest no matter what the age. you have presented your "case" im not saying that i disagree with you, what im saying is that maybe WE can do this in another fashion, and i would be willing to help you if you would like.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

another ***** buy said:


> look i love to fish as much as anybody. i love our river and our great lake as much as anybody. i love to boat as much as anybody. and i would not like to take that away from anybody that is showing interest no matter what the age. you have presented your "case" im not saying that i disagree with you, what im saying is that maybe WE can do this in another fashion, and i would be willing to help you if you would like.


The most reasonable comment yet.

Why in the world don't those of you concerned for the safety of these children visit, in person, with the sail club and discuss the situation. Why take all of the hard roads when the easy path is so available, and makes the most sense.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Lundy, this was attempted and met with hostility. Camera phone photos from other sailing clubs were shown. Nothing was done. A local Coast guard official was a plain cloths guest during a milder incident. Nobody wants the kids to go away. We just would like them to recognize the risk and look for a safe solution besides this the way it is.
Simpler avenues were pursuited in the last few years, nothing was offered or resolved. I have heard of several altercations this year which is new and indicating a rise in the tension of the scenerio.
I felt it was time to start to protect everyone involved. Children do not know better, and it is time to organize the navigators of the river.
The persons who pursued it locally, I stood closely behind these people while this avenue was investigated.
There is an elephant in the room and we need to recognize the problem.
You as an OGF staffer and someone who I have met in Vermilion should understand how many members of this site fish out of the V. 
If there is an accident involving these kids and an OGFer is involved, they can comeback to these photos for defense and if and when the USCG has to investigate.


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## AQUA KNOT (Apr 20, 2008)

GOVERNOR STRICKLAND SIGNS LEGISLATION 
TO ENHANCE BOATING SAFETY IN OHIO
Senate Bill 271 takes effect immediately, covers a wide range of issues

COLUMBUS, OH - Governor Ted Strickland today signed legislation to enhance boating safety on Ohio waterways, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Watercraft.

Senate Bill 271, passed by the Ohio General Assembly last month, addresses a diversity of issues across the state. It became effective immediately upon the governors signature. 

The new legislation creates the following changes in Ohio boating laws:

1) Establishes failure to control as an enforceable boat operator rule. Many accidents occur as the result of operator inexperience or the forces of nature. These are not the result of a rules of the road violation or caused by reckless operation, but may result in minor property damage or injury. 

Examples of situations encompassed by the failure to control law include: over-compensation in strong winds or currents, loss of steerage on jet boats when the throttle is released, and attempting to maneuver under sail power alone through congested areas like marinas that may result in an accident.

I hope all parties can make a pieceful, productive & prompt solution to this problem. Before both parties get hurt via emotionally or physically. It is now an enforcable law, but I hope It can be worked before it comesto that?


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Very interesting. Thanks.
I agree , I want to see this resolved so I can talk more about more enjoyable subjects.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Theprowler,

Don't take me wrong please. I am as concerned as you are about these kids and navigating safely in the Vermilion River and anywhere else.

If you have attempted to contact those involved to reach resolution and gotten nowhere previously maybe it would pay to try one more time with some others involved.

I think I could arrange a meeting with the appropriate Vermilion city officials if you would like to do it. I would be happy to accompany you.

Let me know


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well Lundy, someone else will have to run with the ball right now, As I type I am sitting next to my wife as she is pushing out my first child and future fisherwoman... My time will be limited , but there are others here who might be interested...


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

CONGRATULATIONS to you and your wife.

I'll bet your kid becomes a sail boater  

I think your wife might appreciate you paying a little more attention to her right now than what is happening on OGF. 

Enjoy, it is a great time in your life.

Kim


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

She is a member of the site, loves to fish and is a witness to the situation in the river. She is watching this thread also...


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## another dagos buy (Sep 24, 2007)

prowler,

i have done some investigating and and have found some people directly at the source, the boat club, to contact. if you would like i would help you pursue this at the source.

my feeling is that why not correct it at the source instead of going around it to the police or the city. you and i could go to the boat club and talk to the officials, or commadores as i have found out, and talk to them and show them the pictures that you have in a constructive manner. i dont think the city or the police department is going to do anything unless it is in a reactive manner. im asking you to go to the source and be proactive as you are trying to already be, but go to the group that is at fault here. would you do that? 

you seem like you have a nice business and care alot for your family and the well being of them as well as others, im just asking you to do this when you have some time. if you dont have the time maybe we can get together, you and i, and i will present your case to them. i know you dont know me let alone trust me after i have bashed you on here, accept my appology please, but you never know we may be able to make some good out of this. is it worth a try? 

thanks


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## Lake Erie (Jun 20, 2008)

Sorry, posters, but when I saw this thread, it didn't have the origional post!

I started reading the reply posts, but they all refered to something that had been posted before and I didn't see that post!

Call me a rookie here, and I am, but wouldn't it be good standard procedure to list the post you are refering to (at least the basics) and then say your due? 

These posts disapear from most readers view (15-20 down) quickly, and we don't do ourselves or others reading much service if we don't clearly define what we're talking about.

Miscommunications. Easy to acheive, harder to avoid.

Lkae Rrei


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## ByTheBook (Jul 3, 2008)

** I have been thoroughly amused after reading this thread. Obviously, there is concern for the safety of the children, as well as fellow boaters. Everyone here has made some very good arguments. Some arguments have even been supported by rules. Prowler has quoted from the "Bible" (D.O.T. USCG Navigation Rules - International/Inland) however, I feel that his interpretations of some of these Rules have a misleading nature. 
** First of all let's look at the definitions of the terms that have been used. Rule 3 in the "good book" lists the General Definitions. Under Rule 3, there are 17 definitions pertaining to Inland Waterways. For the sake of saving space, here is the link to the definitions http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule03.htm The definitions used in this thread include (b), (c), (d), (f), (g), (h), (i/h). 
** Rule 9 has been quoted several times in this thread. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule09.htm This rule on Narrow Channals applies only to areas demarcated as such by the Secretary of Transportation/Homeland Security. If you followed the link to the rule, you can access links to the Code of Federal Regulations, which lists every river that is considered a Narrow Channel. The Vermilion River is not one of them.
** Rule 10 "Traffic Separation Schemes", http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule10.htm does not apply to the Vermilion River as the Secretary of Transportation/Homeland Security hasn't deemed the river as a Narrow Channel, nor has there ever been the proper bouys or Vessel Traffic Service needed for Traffic Separation on the Vermilion River.
** Some have asked where it is written that sailboats have the rightaway over power boats. You can find that answer in Rule 18 http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule18.htm "Responsibilities Between Vessels". There are 4 parts to this rule. How I have been taught to remember them is a simple saying: Only New Reels Catch Fish, So Purchase Some. Here is the USCG pecking order: 
1) vessels being Overtaken; 2) vessels Not under command; 3) vessels Restricted in her ability to maneuver; 4) vessels Constrained by her draft; 5) vessels Engaged in (commercial) fishing; 6) vessels under Sail; 7) vessels under Power; 8) Seaplanes. If you go back to Rule 3, you will find the USCG definitions of the 8 vessels that I just listed. You notice how Power Driven Vessels are listed 7th... that means that a Power Driven Vessel has to "give way" to the 6 vessels listed ahead of it.
** So that leaves Rule 13 http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule13.htm "Overtaking". According to Rule 13, subpart (a) states "notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 though 18, any vessel overtaking any other *shall keep out of the way *of the vessel being overtaken." Prowler, when you are upbound in the Vermilion River and you are trying to pass (overtaking) these little boats, then you are the "give way" vessel and *MUST* keep clear. Furthermore, subpart (d) states "Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels *shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the same meaning of these Rules or relieve her of her duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear*". So when the little sailboats tack (cross their bow through the wind) and sail in a different direction, the passing or overtaking vessel *still* has the "give way" obligation. 
** So where does that leave us? Rules 9 and 10 don't apply to the Vermilion River. Take that one up with the Secretary of Transportation/Homeland Security. Rule 18 establishes the pecking order of who has more rights in and on a waterway. So that just leaves Rule 13 in which the *overtaking vessel must keep clear*. That would be you, Prowler.
** The Captain of Port currently is the Captain of Sector Buffalo. He can delegate this title to the Senior Chief Officer at Station Lorain. When that happens, the SCO at Lorain will be advised by Sector Buffalo's mandate to maintain saftey and security of the Vermilion River. This happened last year, when Station Lorain *CLOSED* the Vermilion River to _downbound_ and _upbound traffic _for special marine events that were registered with the USCG. The Vermilion Boat Club Junior Regatta was one of those occasions. 
** To follow the chain of command, one would have to register a complaint with Station Lorain that these little sailboats are posing a risk to themselves and to others. Station Lorain would do an investigation. If Station Lorain felt that there was a problem, then they would pass it on to Sector Buffalo. Sector Buffalo would then review the situation and then make a reccommendation to the Secretary of Transportation/Homeland Security *only if *they felt there was a problem. Then there would be a ruling. This whole process, if it ever left Lorain, would take approximately 12-18 months. 
** Prowler, there are a few solutions as I see it.
Option 1) Towing the boats. The little sailboats could be towed to/from the Lake. In that case, you then would still have to give way because now you'd have 6 inflatable dinghies towing approximately 6 boats each, therefore each inflatable would be considered "a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" by USCG definitions.
Option 2) Leave the dock before 0800 or after 0930; Return to Port after 1630
Option 3) Wait patiently as you enter or exit the harbor. If you can not maintain your boat in a safe manner to avoid collision with another boat, federal pier, or federal beakwall perhaps you should just stay at the dock.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well 200T, buy the age of your membership here, it makes me quite suspicious on who you really are... Never the less, lets continue...
Have you seen the new boating laws recently passed by the Gov. of Ohio?
Senate Bill 271:
Establishes failure to control as an enforceable boat operator rule. Many accidents occur as the result of operator inexperience or the forces of nature. These are not the result of a rules of the road violation or caused by reckless operation, but may result in minor property damage or injury. Examples of situations encompassed by the failure to control law include: over-compensation in strong winds or currents, loss of steerage on jet boats when the throttle is released, and attempting to maneuver under sail power alone through congested areas like marinas. 

the link:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/watercraft/buckeyeboater/july/tabid/2161/Default.aspx

The bottom line is this:
It is a dangerous situation. You may not think so by quoting definitions, but words do not keep kids from getting hurt, action does.
It may take 18 months for the Coast Guard to do something, or it may take the State less with the new law.
So, Yes my suggestion is to tow the boats in and out of the harbor, I have suggested this for several years now, Yes you give way, (Duh...) Their movement is erratic in nature because they are learing to sail, therfore you cannot predict or anticipate their movement, because I do not think some of them know. Its not their fault, they are learning.. but I do not want them to learn by decorating the bow of another boat. 
What ever happen to common sense. Oh, and by the way I know the chain of command around here, I used to fish out of Buffalo, had my boat inspected serveral times there, nice gentlemen. I am sure they could easily recall how some of the other clubs tranfer their students up and down the river when I name the locations.
By the way, I work for the government, just because Homeland Security says it is so, does not make it majically safe. Hi, I am from the Goverment and I am here to help you.... please sir....
If it was early spring and the high water came followed by significant ice flow, would that not fall in a resticted manuverability situation. Oh, yeah, Homeland Security said it wasn't so we should be fine....
Does the word Katrina mean anything in regards to the fine response of our government at work? Not impressed...
I like common sense. Something that is lacking on this thread and on the river only at certain intervals....


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## ByTheBook (Jul 3, 2008)

theprowler said:


> By the way, I work for the government....


that explains alot.... 

**As for the "erratic" maneuvering of the little boats, obviously shows that you know absolutely nothing about sailing. Here's a crash course... no pun intended. Sailboats, at best, can sail at a 40 degree angle to the true and apparent winds. True wind is direction in degrees, from which the wind is blowing referenced to true north. The apparent wind is the wind direction and speed which you feel while the boat is moving. If the wind is blowing from the South, say 180T, the closest (and fastest) the sailboats could sail would be on a heading of 140 on starboard tack or at 220 on port tack. By sailing for a distance, say a hundred yards on starboard tack at approx. 140 mag., then the sailboat would tack (cross their bow through the wind) and then sail on an approx. heading of 220mag., thus moving in a zig-zagging manner. By doing these simple manuevers the sailboats can then proceed in the desired direction to get to their destination. Its just like when your GPS tells you to turn left 5 degrees to maintain the rhumb line to your desired destination. These kids do these maneuvers without 12 satellites guiding them. They do it by looking at the little pieces of yarn that hang off their sails. I dont think it is the young sailors that don't know what they are doing.
**The Vermilion Boat Club Sail Camp program has been in existance since 1952. That's 56 years of sailing being taught out of this harbor. During those 56 years, I will admit, there have been collisions with powerboats, both moving and docked. Yes, there has even been damage done. However, there has never been a serious injury to either the sailcampers or the "innocent victims". You don't need to have a sail to cause a collision, just ask that charter boat captain out of Sandusky that ran up on the wall at the entrance to Sandusky Bay. Ignorance by people who buy their boats at the local mall and don't take a boating course, and by people who don't understand sailing vessels cause collisions just as easily as people who know everything about their own vessels do. Accidents happen.
**The new Ohio Boating law will not change the fact that accidents happen. It will only make people more liable for the damage that they cause. But it won't stop damage from happening. Under this law, if *ODNR* sees you hit a dockpost too hard when you're trying to dock in a 40mph cross wind and 5 kts. of current, you could be cited. If you are overtaking and don't sound the proper sound signals as perscribed by "Bible" on the Great Lakes and Inland Waters, you could be cited. 
**As for my young age on this site, yes, I admit... I heard about this thread from a friend and had to see for myself. So yes, I'm quite new to this site. But what I'm not new at is boating, this City and the River. I've called this my homeport for 56 years now. I've sailed on all 5 Great Lakes, Lake St. Clair, the Detroit River, both the Atlantic and Pacific, the Gulf of Mexico, the St. Lawrence, the Chesapeake, and the Long Island Sound. I've been around long enough to know what this river was like before the detached breakwall. I've lived through the "Big Flood" and the many "little floods". I've watched as entire docking systems have been torn from their supports and carried down river with the boats still tied to the docks more than once. I've watched the repopulation of the wood duck on this river. And for for the past 6 decades, I've watched countless kids learn to sail through this program. I've also watched impatient people, who in their desparation to get out to the Lake or return from the Lake, have made fools of themselves and shown their lack of seamanship. 
**The only good news here is that The Sail Camp is over for the year, it ended last Monday. Another 150 kids learned the fine art of proper seamanship, boat handling (both _sail_ and _power_), nomenclature, knot tying and camaraderie.
**I guess that just leaves the new Sheriff's boat to complain about


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## true2plue (Jul 12, 2004)

Obviously you know your stuff BytheBook, but there are many boaters...especially sailboaters who tend to not care about others while their sails are set. For example: While fishing the Huron area a few weeks ago, the same sailboat crossed our path on two occassions. Both times we gave way to only have the sailboat steer towards us. I guess you just can't fix stupid!!


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## lskater (Mar 19, 2007)

Mr. ByTheBook your last post explains alot. You only came on this site to preach the glorys of sailboating and tell us that we powerboaters are the ones that are always at fault and a bunch of 14 year old kids are better boaters than guys like me who have been boating for over 50 years. I don't know about all your fancy sailboat lingo but I know how to operate my boat safely and if I had to navigate that river I'd find a new home.Which I'm sure would make guys like you happy so you could have your tranquil sailboat haven. Sorry guys but I've had it up to here with self rightous sailboaters. its never their fault.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, by the book, I guess that makes you supreme commander of the universe because in your eyes, nothing about what happens in the river is of any responsiblity of a boat with a post coming out of the middle. 
By the way, I have not had an incident on that river, nor do I plan to. But when an accident occurs and a child is injured because a large ego got in the way of common sense and safety, it will not be my child. I have started this thread out of concern in hopes a solution would be met before injury. 
I have witnessed safe sailing youngsters and for the first time I seen ones who were in harms way. 
My only question to you is do you believe these kids were operating in a manner that was the safest way for them to arrive outside the breakwall?
Sailing is not my interest, so I am not anxious to run out there to learn about the fine details of the navigational manuvers of these vessels in a narrow channel. And I am certain you have no concern about the details on how we manage 8 to 16 lines out in the lake in an attempt to catch walleyes. The difference is the site is called ohiogamefishing, not ohiosailboating.


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## true2plue (Jul 12, 2004)

theprowler said:


> The difference is the site is called ohiogamefishing, not ohiosailboating.


...AMEN!!


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## kramerpage (Apr 3, 2006)

I just don't like sailboats. Large or Small. White or Red. You can't run dipseys from a sailboat for Lord's sake!
My nickel.........


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Here is the deal folks, I am so done with giving a crap about someone else's kids. People have suscribed to this site just to argue about details of the rules of the road. I hope to live long enough to have over 50 years of boating experience, but I also hope to maintain enough common sense to see an accident waiting to happen. Why are stoplights needed? We all know the rules. Saftey. Well one might say we did not need a traffic light here 52 years ago, Yes, but there are more cars on the road. More boats in the river.
Oh, well. Let the judge figure it out when the poor kid with his head on the other side of the sail plows a 50 footer belonging to a cut-throat attorney.
I have washed my hands of this. I will be in Grad school next year and may not even get my boat wet next summer. I would rather spend this summer talking about my kid and fishing then somebody else's kid who is going to get whacked in the river... Fish On...


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## ByTheBook (Jul 3, 2008)

theprowler said:


> The difference is the site is called ohiogamefishing, not ohiosailboating.


Then talk about fishing, not little sailboats that get in _*your*_ way...

**I've had many "glorious" times on Sailboats. I have had many more "glorious" times on my POWERboat. I'd rather troll peacefully, than drift (keeps the black flies off you when you're moving). I've only managed 2 lines at one time (all that one person is allowed under ODNR rules). But I've been aboard when charter captain friend of mine has put out the planner boards and reached the daily walleye limit in a few hours for all on board. I'm not here to preach, just to teach. After reading what was written by powerboating "captains", I came to offer the sailboating "captiains" side of the story, since I've had experience on both vessels. 
**Unfortunately, being a devils advocate isn't always easily done. There are many sides to this situation that can be corrected. The fact of the matter is that there are over 4000 boats in Vermilion Harbor. Yes, the majority of those boats are powerboats. But the point is that if everyone knew the rules of the road, then perhaps there wouldn't be as many accidents. I believe that is why there are driver's training courses for automobiles. And eventually, with the boating operator's requirements, all who operate a vessel on the waters will have some sort of training. 
**What most don't realize is that any Sailor can get behind the wheel of a powerboat and navigate it. However, there aren't as many powerboaters that can get on the helm of a sailboat under sail and do the same. Most Sailors are also powerboaters. Does that make the sailboater superior to powerboaters... No, it just makes them different. 
**What angers most sailboaters is the fact that most powerboaters don't know what to do in a particular situation. The simple fact that there are some arrogant people who make assumptions based on the particular type of boat that someone else is on is especially annoying.
**You are right, this is a fishing site. However, in order to fish on the Lake, one must get on a boat and navigate it to and from the Lake. If that person behind the wheel has a little information regarding the other vessels in the areas in which they will be using their boat, don't you think that is good? It may make a difference when they come into a situation that they are not used to or haven't experienced before. That's my only reason for commenting on this site. 
**I'm not here to change your mind on what you feel is a dangerous situation. I wont get into a pissing match over who is better or knows more, because that doesn't do anyone any good. I only posted the rules by which all mariners (are supposed to) live by, with the proper interpretations, and some simple explanations as to the maneuverability of sailboats. Having read the posts as you have, you should now feel comfortable taking your vessel out when there is sailing vessels sailing in the river.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

24 years of sharing the water with sailboats and being on one time to time, I never had an issue. Until I voiced my concern about the saftey of a situation here and was attacked on and off this site. Your right, I do not have to worry. I have the skills to evade under almost all circumstances. I have been in some crap in the Atlantic, Erie and the niagra river in the winter time. If i can evade an iceberg in Devil's hole I can evade a little sailor. I am not concrned for me. Some people actually are under the misconception that boating is some sort of relaxing, enjoyable experience. I think that is why it is called recreational boating... The situation that has gone on the last few years has been nerve racking for many people who I interact with, including certain Vermilion Police officers. But as I said good luck to them, the kids, and you mr. by the book.


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## Don's Joy (Jun 17, 2008)

To Mr By the book.
All this talk about "a sailboat in the river" is missing the point of concern. The point is MANY SAILBOATS in a short space of the river at the same time. These young sailors are victims of their instructors sending them out at the same time. They congest the whole river for a period of time. People launch boats in the Vermilion river from all over the country. Some are familiar with the rules of the road, some are not. What the sailing club is living by is the rule "We have the right of way" there seems to be little concern for the boaters coming to Vermilion for a pleasant time on the lake. I fail to understand why these "little boats" are not towed out, or released only a few at a time. By clouging the river they demonstrate a tremendous arrogance toward the other individuals sharing the river. We all have the same right to use this river. I think the purpose of this thread was to find a compromise to the benifit of both sides of this issue. You Mr By the Book, appear to be much to arrogant to find compromise


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## lskater (Mar 19, 2007)

Don's Joy said:


> To Mr By the book.
> All this talk about "a sailboat in the river" is missing the point of concern. The point is MANY SAILBOATS in a short space of the river at the same time. These young sailors are victims of their instructors sending them out at the same time. They congest the whole river for a period of time. People launch boats in the Vermilion river from all over the country. Some are familiar with the rules of the road, some are not. What the sailing club is living by is the rule "We have the right of way" there seems to be little concern for the boaters coming to Vermilion for a pleasant time on the lake. I fail to understand why these "little boats" are not towed out, or released only a few at a time. By clouging the river they demonstrate a tremendous arrogance toward the other individuals sharing the river. We all have the same right to use this river. I think the purpose of this thread was to find a compromise to the benifit of both sides of this issue. You Mr By the Book, appear to be much to arrogant to find compromise


 Well Said!


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## tph (Jun 15, 2008)

The week of the June 15th I fished out of Vermilion every day but one. Encountered the "little boats" twice. Probably slowed me down a total of 15 minutes. What a drag! Talked to a maritime attorney and showed him the photos from this thread. His humble opinion... if there is collision between these boats and a power boat it WILL be the fault of the power boater. We can see them from far off and do what we need to do to avoid them. Even if if it means waiting for 15 LONG minutes. I mentioned before, the bigger problem is bigger boats with intoxicated operators, boats that won't back down and vessels moving too fast in and out of the channel. My big beef from my 'birthday week of fishing'? Some older guy singlehanding a 30' or so sail boat who sailed fast out of the river. HE caused me to stop and nearly drift into the breakwall. Not sure why he didn't motor out. He had an engine. Just in case it really bugs some of you guys, there is a sailboat race Friday evening out of Vermilion. I think it is the kids but not sure. If it is so stressful, you may want to avoid the area then.

Let the little boats out in shifts is a good idea. There should be starters for us too! Way more powerboats and fishing craft out there than the 'little boats'. Sheesh. Slow down. Stop if you have to. Enjoy the day. It's only a matter of minutes, sailboats or not, before you have the entire lake to play with.


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## reo (May 22, 2004)

theprowler said:


> Here is the deal folks, I am so done with giving a crap about someone else's kids. People have suscribed to this site just to argue about details of the rules of the road. I hope to live long enough to have over 50 years of boating experience, but I also hope to maintain enough common sense to see an accident waiting to happen. Why are stoplights needed? We all know the rules. Saftey. Well one might say we did not need a traffic light here 52 years ago, Yes, but there are more cars on the road. More boats in the river.
> Oh, well. Let the judge figure it out when the poor kid with his head on the other side of the sail plows a 50 footer belonging to a cut-throat attorney.
> I have washed my hands of this. I will be in Grad school next year and may not even get my boat wet next summer. I would rather spend this summer talking about my kid and fishing then somebody else's kid who is going to get whacked in the river... Fish On...



Sooooo, if I have this right you opened the can and then stirred it up, talked about actually doing something constructive to solve a problem and now you have "washed your hands of this" when you received some opposing opinions??   Stick with it man but it is time to end it on here and follow through if you _were_ genuine with you original concerns.


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## Cloud9 (Jun 11, 2008)

tph said:


> Probably slowed me down a total of 15 minutes.



I will say I have no experience with this particular channel, but what you say sounds similar to if a draw bridge is down for some time. Not much to do except sit and wait...and enjoy the beautiful scenery.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

reo said:


> Sooooo, if I have this right you opened the can and then stirred it up, talked about actually doing something constructive to solve a problem and now you have "washed your hands of this" when you received some opposing opinions??   Stick with it man but it is time to end it on here and follow through if you _were_ genuine with you original concerns.


The posters on this site with the recent membership here are affiliated with the club responsible for the safe keeping of these youngsters. They hide in amenimity but word has spread. It is apparent they do care about their saftey, so why should I? Good suggestions were made, but because it left the lips of someone not in their little community, it is not acceptable.
I will continue to gather photographic evidence just in case an OGFer gets pinched and needs some sort of photographic recourse. But as far as seeking a solution? They do not see a problem. I suspected I was dealing with a brick wall when they started the personal attacks. That is what a child does. When does the aggrevation out way trying to reach a solution.


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

tph said:


> The week of the June 15th I fished out of Vermilion every day but one. Encountered the "little boats" twice. Probably slowed me down a total of 15 minutes. What a drag! Talked to a maritime attorney and showed him the photos from this thread. His humble opinion... if there is collision between these boats and a power boat it WILL be the fault of the power boater. We can see them from far off and do what we need to do to avoid them. Even if if it means waiting for 15 LONG minutes. I mentioned before, the bigger problem is bigger boats with intoxicated operators, boats that won't back down and vessels moving too fast in and out of the channel. My big beef from my 'birthday week of fishing'? Some older guy singlehanding a 30' or so sail boat who sailed fast out of the river. HE caused me to stop and nearly drift into the breakwall. Not sure why he didn't motor out. He had an engine. Just in case it really bugs some of you guys, there is a sailboat race Friday evening out of Vermilion. I think it is the kids but not sure. If it is so stressful, you may want to avoid the area then.
> 
> Let the little boats out in shifts is a good idea. There should be starters for us too! Way more powerboats and fishing craft out there than the 'little boats'. Sheesh. Slow down. Stop if you have to. Enjoy the day. It's only a matter of minutes, sailboats or not, before you have the entire lake to play with.


Was this Attorney's humble opinion include if a small sailor hit the side of another vessel making a quick turn in the river? I have seen some close calls.


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## tph (Jun 15, 2008)

theprowler said:


> The posters on this site with the recent membership here are affiliated with the club responsible for the safe keeping of these youngsters. They hide in amenimity but word has spread. It is apparent they do care about their saftey, so why should I? Good suggestions were made, but because it left the lips of someone not in their little community, it is not acceptable.
> I will continue to gather photographic evidence just in case an OGFer gets pinched and needs some sort of photographic recourse. But as far as seeking a solution? They do not see a problem. I suspected I was dealing with a brick wall when they started the personal attacks. That is what a child does. When does the aggrevation out way trying to reach a solution.


I am new here because of the quality of the fishing info vs other sites. This particular thread is of interest because I'm new to Vermilion (Romps) and think its a great place. The slow ride out to the lake, the kids learning to sail, the people and the really big boats... its all part of the atmosphere. I will boat defensively and vow not to get angry or stressed when moving through the river. My time on the water is for me to put life's pressures on hold. I am not a 'plant' from 'the club' here to further their agenda.


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## Ohio Gas (Feb 2, 2006)

Navigate = to plan and control the course and position of a ship or aircraft. All definations include control. Trying to navigate in a skinny river by sail alone when the wind is obstructed by trees and buildings on both sides is scary at best. All other sailing vessels use some sort of power when attempting this in a port or dockage area. Why not give the little boats electric motors or small outboards so they can control(navigate) the boats in tight spaces. They will need these skills if they pursue this sport to a higher level.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Now that SB271 has been signed by the gov I think its time to let law enforcement sort this out. 

A long time ago I started a thread (perhaps on the old GFO) that criticized the boating practices of one of our local bass circuits here in central OH. I swear that thread set a record for recruiting the most new members..lol. Dozens of folks jumping in to turn the spotlight in the other direction. It's not hard to see how certain behaviors get reinforced.

Congrat's on your new arrival!


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## theprowler (Jul 14, 2004)

Ohio Gas said:


> Navigate = to plan and control the course and position of a ship or aircraft. All definations include control. Trying to navigate in a skinny river by sail alone when the wind is obstructed by trees and buildings on both sides is scary at best. All other sailing vessels use some sort of power when attempting this in a port or dockage area. Why not give the little boats electric motors or small outboards so they can control(navigate) the boats in tight spaces. They will need these skills if they pursue this sport to a higher level.



My original suggestion last year was to have them take one of the rafts and tie them in a line 5 or so at a time and tow them out. Safely.. That is what other clubs do in other ports when conditions are not optimum for new students.


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## Islander26 (Sep 25, 2007)

Cloud9 said:


> I will say I have no experience with this particular channel, but what you say sounds similar to if a draw bridge is down for some time. Not much to do except sit and wait...and enjoy the beautiful scenery.


 A draw bridge is not running up down and across the river that is not similar,and far from enjoyable. IT IS DANGEROUS!!!!


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