# Scioto access at Marble Cliff



## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I just got notice that Marble Cliff is interested in developing an access point on the river frontage they own south of 5th Ave. They're organizing a citizens' group to explore the possibility of getting an ODNR grant - which is interesting because the ODNR headquarters is right there.

They will meet on October 11 at 7:30 at the Staufs (I don't have a street address) to gather citizen ideas. If anyone wants to leave comments in this thread I can copy them to a member of the Marble Cliff Council.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

I think it would be wonderful. Don't put in a boat ramp but a nice access point for canoes and kayaks. Use some of the newer ideas used at the parks like the recycling for fishing line would be nice.

This would be an excellent way for people to take more interest in a part of the river that seems to be forgotten.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

In my response, I said it would be especially nice since so much access is lost to quarries and gated communities along that section.

But on the county map, it looks like there's not much room to work with.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

Have they mentioned a particular section?


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

She said south of Fifth, but I wonder if the access would be north of Fifth, by the stone railroad bridge. I see people parked there sometimes, but there's no parking lot, you have to drive over the curb. I'm not sure if it's legal to park there.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

depends on which side of the river to. There would be space on the west side just after the bridge but right there at the train bridge wouldn't be bad either. If they built something like the Alkire Road put in on the Darby it would be awesome.


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## dre (Aug 14, 2009)

When I lived in Grandview I fished this area quite abit, espcially downstream from the railroad bridge, it would be nice to have a better access point. I hope it works out.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Have them put litter warning signs up @ the put-in (like the ones that say "officers may be undercover/posing as sportsmen"). That entire area south of Griggs is fairly pristine due to lack of _easy_ access. When you do come across easily accessible areas they are often trashed. A sign stating the fines along with possible undercover officers should help clean up all the slobs that usually show up at easy-access points.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

FOSR said:


> She said south of Fifth, but I wonder if the access would be north of Fifth, by the stone railroad bridge. I see people parked there sometimes, but there's no parking lot, you have to drive over the curb. I'm not sure if it's legal to park there.


It has been posted numerous times and the signs are routinely torn down. Good luck getting a put-in constructed there with all those ritzy-homes just north...Im sure they would bish up a storm.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

acklac, I absolutely agree. Those warning signs seem to help in the parks that I have been in. I'd love to see them above Griggs damn.



acklac7 said:


> Have them put litter warning signs up @ the put-in (like the ones that say "officers may be undercover/posing as sportsmen"). That entire area south of Griggs is fairly pristine due to lack of _easy_ access. When you do come across easily accessible areas they are often trashed. A sign stating the fines along with possible undercover officers should help clean up all the slobs that usually show up at easy-access points.


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## USMC_Galloway (May 13, 2011)

Meh, this would be nice to allow for a really short float take out, which you can still get out at the RR crossing anyways. I think having a public access point there would have just as many pros as it would cons.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Trivia - one of the arches on that RR bridge was there to acommodate the old inter-urban rail line that used to run off to the northwest.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

Alex, 

They closed the put-in/take-out in Grandview ave, and a new put place to put in and take out would be a wonderful replacement south of 5th ave. Although the terain is difficult surrounded by commercial real estate, a put-in similar to the one comparable to the Darby put-in off of Alkire road may not be possible. Also, further down is beneficial for small jon-boats, so an access point created for small jon boats, canoes, and kayaks would be a good benefit.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I'll know more after the meeting on the 11th but from what I know so far they're planning on a ramp that can accommodate boat trailers - but there isn't much room.

I'm swapping messages with someone in FLOW, and they say ODNR is interested in improving access, including developing portages.


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## Eugene (Jun 23, 2004)

Sounds like involving the ODNR's Water Trails program might be in order:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/watercraft/trails/howto/tabid/2898/Default.aspx


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## sashimigrade (Jun 25, 2011)

I love this idea. There could never be enough put in spots on rivers and streams around central ohio. It's fun but also tiresome to find good spots to put in for those of us that don't like trespassing, would rather not disobey parking rules, and are too old or out of shape to scale a 10 foot mud wall with a kayak.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

Alex

I grew up in the Grandview area and see what you can do. Thanks for the input Mr. Braig! :smilingface (52):


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

This is the application packet for the ODNR grant that Marble Cliff hopes to get:

http://sciotoriverfriends.org/materials/boating_grant_application.pdf


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Bump to report, we met last night. Here are a few of my notes. 

The property in question runs from just north of 5th Ave., down to the Certified station. In fact part of the station is within Marble Cliff. The owner of the property gave the property to Marble Cliff because he couldn't do anything with it and he was tired of paying taxes on it. Most of the property is a steep, wooded slope down to the river, and there isn't much room to work with.

The ODNR boating facility grant amount varies with the number of parking spaces. There are other (much greater) funds for similar projects for motor boats, but those are not available to something like this because the funds come from marine gas tax. We agreed that this section of the river is not motor-friendly. Someone (a municipality) must commit to maintaining the facility into the future.

Some issues: there must be safe access to get on and off of 33, so the section between 5th and the railroad bridge is out. The greatest amount of level space is next to the Certified, possibly using their existing curb cuts. 

The road or path going down to the water can't be too steep, there are guidelines. The facility design can't be too expensive. The boat launch itself must be able to sustain flooding.

This might become part of a future water trail (there's funding for those as well). We were advised to anticipate opposition from riverside residents, as happened along the Olentangy in Riverlea. We were advised to contact any nearby neighborhood associations or groups and discuss the project's potential.

I said that a portage at the water plant dam would connect this section to the downtown pool (they already knew of course) and there might be some sort of grant to develop a portage at that dam.

Finally, there's some sort of storm-sewer work coming up and we might be able to make use of some of that if they're going to dig around the bank anyway.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks for the update FOSR!! Hopefully this continues to gather steam and end up a reality!


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

I know I may catch some flak for this but im now personally against the launch in that section of River, at least at the proposed location. Not necessarily because of the pressure it may put on the fish (fishing is so/so), but because of the relatively pristine setting that area has to offer. Building a parking lot next to the certified station with a nice, clear, easy trail down to the water is going to attract more enemies of the Scioto then friends. Your're going to get people drinking down there, camping down there, doing who knows what down there, not to mention the bucket brigade/soft craw crew will set up shop and harvest about anything they can, then move on to the next easily accessible hole. I hate to say it but that area is going to get trashed.

There are already access points @ Griggs and 5th for canoe's/Kayaks, and several public take outs downstream near 670. Yes they may not be easy, but they're there (and used with a great deal of frequency). While the access point did initially sound like an ok idea my personal opinion now is it's not needed and will almost certainly do more harm then good. Just my 2c


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## MDBuckeye (Sep 29, 2009)

I tend to agree with you acklac. I've been through this area and it's pretty decent down at the water because it's a challenge to get down to it. If you go further south where access is easier you see the amount of trash, both in and around the river, go up considerably. It's a touchy subject.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

acklac, when you put it that way I have to agree with you. I think my thing is that I don't know where those accesses other than the frisbee golf course which can be ugly in it's own right. I've asked on here and looked at ODNR's website but I believe people think I'm after their hole. Not after the hole but just want to get into the water and fish. I also don't want to trespass trying to get into the water but I don't want to allow access to the bucket brigades either.



acklac7 said:


> I know I may catch some flak for this but im now personally against the launch in that section of River, at least at the proposed location. Not necessarily because of the pressure it may put on the fish (fishing is so/so), but because of the relatively pristine setting that area has to offer. Building a parking lot next to the certified station with a nice, clear, easy trail down to the water is going to attract more enemies of the Scioto then friends. Your're going to get people drinking down there, camping down there, doing who knows what down there, not to mention the bucket brigade/soft craw crew will set up shop and harvest about anything they can, then move to the next hole. I hate to say it but that area is going to get trashed.
> 
> There are already access points @ Griggs and 5th for canoe's/Kayaks, and several public take outs downstream near 670. Yes they may not be easy, but they're there. While the access point did initially sound like an ok idea my personal opinion is it's not needed and will almost certainly do more harm then good. Just my 2c


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

Alex, 

I would imagine they are going to have to tear out the Certified in order to be able to add better boat access to the Scioto. I wonder if they are going to install some kind of a ramp or something that could back down to the river, but i don't think that will work either. If they decide to tear down the gas station, I hope they can make the access friendly for those who like to down back to the river and get their boat.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

The Certified isn't out of business but you make a point about boats. Maybe this is a park a 'beach' only. No ramp.



fishfreak said:


> Alex,
> 
> I would imagine they are going to have to tear out the Certified in order to be able to add better boat access to the Scioto. I wonder if they are going to install some kind of a ramp or something that could back down to the river, but i don't think that will work either. If they decide to tear down the gas station, I hope they can make the access friendly for those who like to down back to the river and get their boat.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

That certified will never go out of business, it's always packed. In regards to powerboats/johnboats/etc - not possible. The riffle behind certified is long and extremely shallow, absolutely no way your getting a power boat up or down it. You may be able to push it up/down the riffle but the destruction of habitat would be substantial. Also the area north of there is relatively shallow too, powerboats just wont work.

To be completely honest im not necessarily against an access point for boats/canoes/kyaks, and I know FOSR efforts/ideas are in good faith. That said an easy access point, right next to a busy gas station, in a lightly patrolled area, near a relatively pristine/secluded section of river is just a recipe for disaster. Honestly if you could put one just south of 5th ave I wouldn't have much of problem. But the proposed location is just a flat-out bad idea.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

If you are going to allow access to the Scioto, i would not make it one-dimentionsional. While Ben suggested a beach instead of a road leading down to the river, I personally would not go along with the access.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

benjaminrogers said:


> acklac, when you put it that way I have to agree with you. I think my thing is that I don't know where those accesses other than the frisbee golf course which can be ugly in it's own right. I've asked on here and looked at ODNR's website but I believe people think I'm after their hole. Not after the hole but just want to get into the water and fish. I also don't want to trespass trying to get into the water but I don't want to allow access to the bucket brigades either.


You have to be creative, and know the trespassing laws. If you look hard enough you will find them (put-in's / take-out's), and they aren't exactly pretty. On a scale of 1-10 the end frisbee golf course is probably a 3, the others down stream are substantially more challenging, but still people use them alllllllll the time.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

I know this area is of great interest, but I'm unsure too if it's the best location. A good location would be one that has access to the bike trail. If there's access to the bike trail, then Metro Parks Rangers will be patrolling it regularly. There's a spot I just located that would suit much better...heck some are already using it... illegally. The bike path heading towards the River just downstream of the I-670 bridge at Grandview avenue would be great. Already a bike path easement...just expand the path to be able to facilitate vehicle AND bike traffic. New buildings going up on the parcel, but if the City, State, etc. got an easement or even bought some of the floodplain on that Parcel there could be quite a large parking area and a real boat ramp.

Here is where I am thinking.
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=39.96901&lon=-83.043154&z=20&r=0&src=msa


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

No so much a beach I guess but a walkway to carry kayaks and canoes down. I've talked to many people who have fished this area and have said no way a boat is getting through there.

As for one dimensional that's how I see the Scioto and Olentangy trails. Pedestrians and Bikers but no access really for kayakers or canoers and limited parking in most areas.



fishfreak said:


> If you are going to allow access to the Scioto, i would not make it one-dimentionsional. While Ben suggested a beach instead of a road leading down to the river, I personally would not go along with the access.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

Alex, 

I would suggest modifying the access at Lake Shore drive. I would suggest to Marble Cliff to build some kind of road or ramp leading down to the river under the tressel which that road would also lead down to the water below the rapid. That might be a better idea as the terain down by the Cerfified gas station isn't pratical for putting in and taking boats out. 

There wouldn't be enough parking or pull off space at Lake Shore, but that access would be much easier for those who need to pull off at the water to put in and take their boats out.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

I'd certainly love to fish this area but with bad knees I'm not sure how I'd get the kayaks out. I think we could put in at the golf course but past that I'm just not sure. Really hesitant to trespass but understanding that we have non commercial waterways with no really good accesses I can understand why people do it.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

fishfreak said:


> Alex,
> 
> I would suggest modifying the access at Lake Shore drive. I would suggest to Marble Cliff to build some kind of road or ramp leading down to the river under the tressel which that road would also lead down to the water below the rapid. That might be a better idea as the terain down by the Cerfified gas station isn't pratical for putting in and taking boats out.
> 
> There wouldn't be enough parking or pull off space at Lake Shore, but that access would be much easier for those who need to pull off at the water to put in and take their boats out.


+1

You already have the access point more-or-less there, just need to trim it up/restructure it a bit. Not sure who owns the property though? Possibly the railroad?


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

benjaminrogers said:


> I'd certainly love to fish this area but with bad knees I'm not sure how I'd get the kayaks out. I think we could put in at the golf course but past that I'm just not sure. Really hesitant to trespass but understanding that we have non commercial waterways with no really good accesses I can understand why people do it.


Sometimes you need to bend the laws a little bit in your favor. I know Mushi isn't going to like me saying it but if you're accessing the river via City/State owned property that isn't clearly marked "No Trespassing" are you really trespassing? The answer is probably yes, but more then likely you'll only walk away with a warning the first time (if all you're doing is fishing)


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## claytonhaske (Apr 16, 2010)

Mushijobah said:


> I know this area is of great interest, but I'm unsure too if it's the best location. A good location would be one that has access to the bike trail. If there's access to the bike trail, then Metro Parks Rangers will be patrolling it regularly. There's a spot I just located that would suit much better...heck some are already using it... illegally. The bike path heading towards the River just downstream of the I-670 bridge at Grandview avenue would be great. Already a bike path easement...just expand the path to be able to facilitate vehicle AND bike traffic. New buildings going up on the parcel, but if the City, State, etc. got an easement or even bought some of the floodplain on that Parcel there could be quite a large parking area and a real boat ramp.
> 
> Here is where I am thinking.
> http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=39.96901&lon=-83.043154&z=20&r=0&src=msa


thats a great spot to put in at!!!!! i put my kayak, and 12' jon boat in there all the time. you need a cart to pull your kayak/jon boat on.....but, theres a paved road already there, and you can park at the gas station thats under construction there with no problems.


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## claytonhaske (Apr 16, 2010)

acklac7 said:


> That certified will never go out of business, it's always packed. In regards to powerboats/johnboats/etc - not possible. The riffle behind certified is long and extremely shallow, absolutely no way your getting a power boat up or down it. You may be able to push it up/down the riffle but the destruction of habitat would be substantial. Also the area north of there is relatively shallow too, powerboats just wont work.
> 
> 
> > ive TRIED to fish in that location with a jon boat/kayak and i hated it because of all the dragging i had to do. it is extremley shallow, even durring higher water that riffle is shallow. in my opinion, its just not worth going in that area because of all the work you have to do, just to be able to get through there, let alone fish it too!


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

At the meeting I asked, what if that Certified became a brownfield site? But the Marble Cliff people said it's a big income generator for MC. When you think about it, though, why are there underground gas tanks right there on the riverbank?

This would definitely not be a ramp for boats and trailers, there isn't enough room or river.

The problem with north of Fifth is, it's not safe for getting on and off of 33 because of the short visibility.

As for it getting trashed, that might happen. There's a conflict that even shows up in the FOSR purpose statement, which is, we protect the river and promote the public enjoyment of it. What happens when you need to protect the river from the public?

I'm gambling that increased awareness of the river as a resource will be bettter in the long run. If people start to paddle that section they might start asking why junk cars are perched on top of the riverbank, for example.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

Alex, 

I believe the best solution would be to modify Lake Shore dr. As acklac stated, if they can thin down some of those bushes below the rapid and create a road bed leading down, that would be best for those who enjoy kayaking and fishing the river. That would not cost a lot with regards to re-structuring that access. After the road bed is created, a little concrete pouring for better putting in and taking out which would benefit those who are stressed out from their jobs and health. 

While the Rt. 33 side isn't safe for pulling on and off, the terrain for putting in and taking a boat out is difficult because you have to climp up and down the hill. 

I am not sure who owns the Lake Shore access, but i believe Marble Cliff may have some say in that particular access.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

Is there already an access on Lake Shore?


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Mushijobah said:


> I know this area is of great interest, but I'm unsure too if it's the best location. A good location would be one that has access to the bike trail.


I've been an avid cyclist over the years, but it broke my heart when the rehabed that section of trail and I lost that put-in. 

It would be great if they could put a non-powered craft access in that area. I loved the old "put-in," but people were actually launching bass boats down there off of Grandview Ave.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

There is already access at Lake Shore dr. Ben, but i would like to see that access modified especially for those who are older and don't feel like doing much after they come from work. A lot of people are working too hard to maintain a job in this difficult economy. There is access on each side of the river above 5th in both Lake Shore and Dublin rd., but those curbs from driving over them will damage the joints and shackles that hold both the wheels together. That is evident from the money I spent on my vehicle repairs this year. Therefore, that was from putting in and taking out quite a bit the last 6 years. 

While Mush and Stream stated ideas, i am in favor of re-storing that put-in at Grandview ave. I would like to see that spot modified also which could benefit both powered and non-powered boats. I've fished this river many times the last 2 years, so i believe money is better spent in re-storing and modifying put-in/take out areas that are already there.


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## knightwinder (May 12, 2006)

I'm all for it. When is the meeting?


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

That is true about the curbs. I have a car and have backed away from many places because I just can't get my vehicle up over them without the fear of repair bills!



fishfreak said:


> There is already access at Lake Shore dr. Ben, but i would like to see that access modified especially for those who are older and don't feel like doing much after they come from work. A lot of people are working too hard to maintain a job in this difficult economy. There is access on each side of the river above 5th in both Lake Shore and Dublin rd., but those curbs from driving over them will damage the joints and shackles that hold both the wheels together. That is evident from the money I spent on my vehicle repairs this year. Therefore, that was from putting in and taking out quite a bit the last 6 years.
> 
> While Mush and Stream stated ideas, i am in favor of re-storing that put-in at Grandview ave. I would like to see that spot modified also which could benefit both powered and non-powered boats. I've fished this river many times the last 2 years, so i believe money is better spent in re-storing and modifying put-in/take out areas that are already there.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

I vote for the Grandview access.

I know the spots that a dedicated kayaker/canoer can get to the water along Riverside past 5th Ave to the 33 ramps...can,t really do much with them for larger craft and the trash issue once easier access is established is dead on.

Whatever is established should be out in the open and visible from the 670 ramps....less chance of people breaking into cars and strewing trash if they are in full view.


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## fishfreak (May 31, 2005)

I believe the Grandview Ave. is the best choice. The McKinley ave. side will not work because of the flood wall, terrain, and tressel. They have land availability behind the newly constructed Grandview Ave. Sunoco Gas station, so they can add parking space availability for the bikers, boaters, and the fishermen. The people who use it to walk on can also have that choice. 

While they can add public parking, they can install a ramp similar to the one at Hocking street near dowtown by the confluence. That ramp woud be warranted since that stretch of water benefits both powered and non-powered boats. 

The city is looking to build a bike trail bridge parrallel to the Grandview ave. exit off of I-670 to better connect the bike trail at the Water Works dam on Dublin rd. The fishermen/boaters need to get involved with this issue since they chose to close the access off the bike trail in Grandview ave. I personally would tell the City NO if they can not find a solution that is best for everybody in the community. That is if they do not want the fishermen driving on that bike trail. The ODNR/ODW need to be involved as well.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Bump for an update - the Marble Cliff Village Council decided not to submit a proposal for a grant to develop an access point (this would have been by the Certified station) because of concerns over possible unexpected expenses. So that point at least won't be changing soon.


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## USMC_Galloway (May 13, 2011)

Bummer. 
Also not sure if anyone has noticed but the pull off from the on ramp to 670 west at Grandview is now covered in signs saying no tresspassing and what not that have went up over the winter. So if you do a float on that stretch, you are going to have to get out at Marble Cliff, or go down stream more and get out past the lowhead at the water plant. 

The lowhead is not really that big of a deal, just go far right. That hill up to the parking is a mosters after a day on the river though lol.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

USMC_Galloway said:


> Bummer.
> Also not sure if anyone has noticed but the pull off from the on ramp to 670 west at Grandview is now covered in signs saying no tresspassing and what not that have went up over the winter. So if you do a float on that stretch, you are going to have to get out at Marble Cliff, or go down stream more and get out past the lowhead at the water plant.
> 
> The lowhead is not really that big of a deal, just go far right. That hill up to the parking is a mosters after a day on the river though lol.


Unfortunate, they could EASILY construct a _nice_ put-in there between the two on-ramps, it's like perfect...


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## USMC_Galloway (May 13, 2011)

acklac7 said:


> Unfortunate, they could EASILY construct a _nice_ put-in there in the median there between the two on-ramps, it's like perfect...


I agree, there is plenty of space to drive under the over pass. There is plenty of room on the other side for a turn around, and also a dirt boat ramp already constructed that the ODNR already use. 

I am not sure the reason they will not allow us to not use it. This is not preventing homeless from going down there. That bike path is already their own highway for movement, espically now that they spent money on that nice bridge path.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Let me fire some questions around some people I know at MORPC. They run the Greenways group which includes representatives from Metro Parks, who owns maintenance and patrol of all of the bike trails.

For anyone unfamiliar with the Greenways project, here's the site.



> Welcome to the central Ohio Greenways &#8211; an extensive series of trails that wind through picnic areas, boating and fishing facilities; and family-friendly parks.


http://www.centralohiogreenways.com/

If they mention fishing facilities then you can try to hold them to it. I can offer the assistance of FOSR, but I'm also currently the Chair of the Central Ohio Watershed Council, so you/we could present requests for access on the Olentangy, Alum, and Big Walnut as well.

Not to say that you'll win every time. I've learned that you can have an idea about how to do something, and you can pursue it, and then learn the reasons _why_ it wasn't being done that way.


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