# i dislike deer shotgun season



## bass pro (Mar 16, 2009)

the first day out had people drive up and down the road turn around where i was at then got jumped when i left by one of the guys driving up and down the road. guy literally yelled because i was in the same spot all day. he left cause i told him i was calling game warden because he was tresspassing. 

the second day had guys come where i was at, walk around me, and run deer the complete oppisite way from me and had one guy come into a fence row directly across from me 150 or so yards from me right in my line of fire.

got a call from my uncle and he said 2 guys walked in on him and his son and started shooting at a buck they have been watching all day.

wheres the respect for other hunters. these people have none and think they can hunt anywhere. i hope they all get busted. glad i had to work today. sorry just had to complain to someone. lol


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Is the land owner not worried about trespassing?
I will say, just because your uncle and his son didn&#8217;t want to shoot a deer doesn&#8217;t mean no one can. As long as that person was hunting there legally, good for him.


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## Bowhunter57 (Feb 9, 2011)

You'll run into all kinds of people, during the Deer Gun Season. Notice that I said people, not hunters, because not all of them are hunters in the truest sense.

It is what it is and I try to take the good with the bad and move on. If there are other hunters in the area, I usually hunt in another area and use their movement to benefit me, while I sit in one spot.

How much hunting pressure, how many people that are out, etc. will vary from one location to another, throughout the state. I've been on state property that if you weren't wearing a kevlar vest, you were being very foolish for being in the area. While on other state property there would be very few hunters in the area. The same can be said of private properties.

Be safe, enjoy what you can and leave the rest as experiences of what not to do. 

Bowhunter57


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## bass pro (Mar 16, 2009)

magis --- my uncle and his son didnt have a clean shot and the " people" didnt either they just started shooting

bowhunter57 ---- you are right they are people not hunters there was no one around when i got there no shots fired but they must have figured i had been there all day there must be a reason i guess. they just flocked around. the bad part is i have bow hunted this private property and never seen a soul. these ediots are why i dont take my daughters deer hunting during shotgun season. i dont know what i would do if a slug even come close to them

alls i wanted to know is is there NO RESPECT for the fellow hunter period or is it just screw everyone else help myself


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

like bowhunter57 says.....it is what it is..it doesnt happen with just hunting either...some people are just inconsiderate..just gotta keep your cool and move on... either way,good luck baggin a deer


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

bass pro said:


> magis --- my uncle and his son didnt have a clean shot and the " people" didnt either they just started shooting


I see. For some reason I thought you said he shot the buck, not shot at the buck.


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## icefisherman4life (Aug 5, 2007)

I hunt a property that only 8 guys are allowed on. Me and my cousin and uncle were the only ones supposed to be there out of that 8 on monday. We get there and theres 4 trucks there. Called the wildlife officer he came right out which was really cool. Super nice guy. He ran their plates got names went to one of the property managers and told him what was going on. Well the property manager said oh i gave them permission 3 years ago. Dont write em and ticket cuz i dont want them to get mad. Well we got screwed. The officer said look they are just gonna keep comin back and doin this without permission if you dont do anything. He still didnt do anything. The other property manager wanted to ticket all of em. But it got no where. so there was idiots who didnt have current permission hunting on this property that we've been huntin since the start of bow season. its total bull crap.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

icefisherman4life said:


> I hunt a property that only 8 guys are allowed on. Me and my cousin and uncle were the only ones supposed to be there out of that 8 on monday. We get there and theres 4 trucks there. Called the wildlife officer he came right out which was really cool. Super nice guy. He ran their plates got names went to one of the property managers and told him what was going on. Well the property manager said oh i gave them permission 3 years ago. Dont write em and ticket cuz i dont want them to get mad. Well we got screwed. The officer said look they are just gonna keep comin back and doin this without permission if you dont do anything. He still didnt do anything. The other property manager wanted to ticket all of em. But it got no where. so there was idiots who didnt have current permission hunting on this property that we've been huntin since the start of bow season. its total bull crap.


It sure sounds like thats the fault of the land managers, whatever that is. The guys hunting probably think they have permission, and have for years. Doesnt sound like a very organized place.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

I had a guy just off our property line put up a ladder stand in the furthest part of his pie shape property across the creek from his house facing up the hill towards my property ....new owner I think.... the only thing he really could have shot at would have been right below his stand....I have had the place for 6 years and never had anyone else do this on the back side of the property....he and his son were on there property so no real big deal for me, and the stand is no longer there...I just don't think he might have seen mine and once he saw my friends son hunting the back side decided to go somewhere else...wish there were more people in the woods around my place to get or keep the deer moving, but it seems less and less every year..... anymore


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

For some reason when the gun/weekend warriors come out...these lose all respect and aspect for the game....thats why u see so many injured and find so many dead a few days after.....Ive had "friends" of mine who know my grandparents woods try trespassing and pushing them and ive busted them.....ticks me off.....two years in a row ive had a group of guys push the woods and come back and push them again.....i busted them both times and the second time I rode the quad out about 100 yards from them and told them if they didnt turn around id be calling the warden....they kept going so I three off two shots about 50 yards in front of them and they finally caught my drift. I wish the gamewardens were out thicker than they are during the gun season but its sad we would have to get too that point in the first place.


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## jigfisher (Jun 16, 2012)

Couldn't agree more...i hunt private property that backs up to public and never once during bow season do i have any problems with trespassers. But of course come Monday morning with my bow in hand here comes 3 jack asses in carhartt gear and orange vest with oil stains and everything else strait on to my property. Of course they wanted to argue and fight over whos property was what even though i have it posted about every 5 foot. And these will be the guys who score a solid buck ...not cause there good hunters but because other jackasses will be up walking around pushing deer. To all the good gun hunters thanks for being courteous and respectful. Our gun season just brings out to many of these so called "hunters"


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## Ted Dressel (Dec 16, 2006)

And there fore is why we good hunters get the bad name.5 yrs.ago I was hunting Spring Valley this person shot at a german sheperd and thought it was a deer.The dog ran by my treestand.This dumba$$ came running by and asked me if I saw a deer run by I said no but a german sheperd did. He swore up and down it was a deer so I told him which way it went and he went after it.I just laught and climb down and never went back.The dog wasn"t hit.And no it wasn't a Yote either I know the differance.


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## postalhunter1 (Jun 5, 2010)

I think that it's sad that we get so pushy and rude when we are hunting. I have not had experiences like some of you have had, but I can imagine. I tried to pheasant hunt thanksgiving morning at west branch state park and all I can say is wow! People shooting pheasants over top of other hunters heads, running after birds with their loaded guns, and way too many hunters in a given area. Another example is one time during gun week, we were in a our blind and a large group that was doing a deer drive and the "shooters" basically set up all around us and wouldn't acknowledge our presence. We were waving our blaze orange hats trying to get them to wave or at least let us know they see us. They never would, and they just stood there waiting to shoot. I don't like that at all. Anyway we ended up shooting the 10pt they drove to us anyway!! But honestly we all need to learn a little more patience & respect when we hunt and fish.....


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Bowhunter57 (Feb 9, 2011)

Fishlandr75 said:


> ...it doesnt happen with just hunting either...some people are just inconsiderate..


I was fishing on the bank of a public lake, when a man walked up behind me and asked how the fishing was going. He was standing on the upper portion of the graveled bank, when I said that it was going slow.

He then asked if I had a dollar. I said that I don't carry any cash. He started toward me and said, "C'mon man. You've got to have something."

I cleared my jacket, putting my hand on my CCW and said, "I'm not an ATM. Keep walking!"

He said, "Whoa, man! It's cool."

I said, "Cool is walking the other way."

I don't fish from the bank any more. I'm either in my kayak or I don't go. It seems that you can't even enjoy a nice day of fishing without some sort of hassle.

Just the same, all's well that ends well and I'm not letting anyone stop me from enjoying the great outdoors. 
Bowhunter57


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

look on the bright side.... no injuries this year on opening day. seems like in the past a few people get shot on the first day.


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## Eriesteamer (Mar 9, 2007)

for some 30 tears when I lived in a township that had a no shooting guns with in limits. And quiet a few times they came out woods into my back yard and was up to hunting. theres this half mile woods behind me and it was in a no hunting area as you was not aloud shoot in township. there was me and a few others live there. I had clear my lot of trees and what not. others did same and biult houses there get away from city slickers. Yet these guys where hunting the woods. just because theres a woods that was no reason hunt there. gave them a stern warrning get out my yard and the woods as it was not a hutting area. They left by the woods to hunt it till came out where they started.
To another story. my friend was hunting sqirrles and siting under a tree to be in shade. something ran up his pants and he shook the leg and next he knew some hunter that just came into area open fire on him. neer killing him. took hours at hospital to dig out the bee bees in him.
another story my friend this time was not victem in this one but the shooter. another sqirrle hunter shot a sqirrle and had clime tree to get it off branch and when my friend heard him shoot it came in this area and seen something in tree thought it was a sqirrle and shot repetting a few shot up the leave coved tree only have a now dieing guy fall out it. the guy died ok.
How stupid can you get. Well think before you open fire and be sure see animal not a humen. case closed.


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## treytd32 (Jun 12, 2009)

never ceases to amaze me how stupid people are. My friend and I both hunt our families private land in Butler county and we have both had people trespass in last 3 days despite the plethora of trespassers will be shot signs posted on both properties. My incident was in person and his he caught the guy on his trail cam pissing on a tree then climbing up into his stand.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

icefisherman4life said:


> I hunt a property that only 8 guys are allowed on. Me and my cousin and uncle were the only ones supposed to be there out of that 8 on monday. We get there and theres 4 trucks there. Called the wildlife officer he came right out which was really cool. Super nice guy. He ran their plates got names went to one of the property managers and told him what was going on. Well the property manager said oh i gave them permission 3 years ago. Dont write em and ticket cuz i dont want them to get mad. Well we got screwed. The officer said look they are just gonna keep comin back and doin this without permission if you dont do anything. He still didnt do anything. The other property manager wanted to ticket all of em. But it got no where. so there was idiots who didnt have current permission hunting on this property that we've been huntin since the start of bow season. its total bull crap.





M.Magis said:


> It sure sounds like thats the fault of the land managers, whatever that is. The guys hunting probably think they have permission, and have for years. Doesnt sound like a very organized place.


Do they *think* they have permission? Or do they *know* they have permission because it is written? Isn't written permission required by the law? Three years ago we got checked on a piece of property owned by a friend because a busybody neighbor called about vehicles parked there. The ODNR sent a helicopter to circle around and find us! Then a team of GP's showed up, tromping all through the woods during evening prime time to check us. We all had written permission slips. Plus, they had another 2 man team at the parking area to check our guns when we walked out! For the most part they were courteous and professional, but there was one guy who seemed to think he was Arnold Schwarzenegger Jr.! Swaggering about, throwing his weight around, and acting like we were a gang of dangerous desperados. It was nearly full dark by then, and we hear BOOM! BOOM!, way back in there on a neighboring piece of property! That's when I told the Terminator, "You know, I don't think it's us you need to be concerned about!" 

The take home lesson from this is, I guess, that enforcement is "spotty" at best!


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

In my opinion "most" gun hunters are no less respectful of land owners, boundries, or other hunters than bow hunters. I've hunted deer all over OH on various private land and some public land hunting for 22 years....I've seen a lot of everything mentioned here during bow season.

Just as there are many rule breaking disrespectful gun hunters....so to are there bowhunters.

I think it is more of a volume issue.....we are talking about a 7 day period where 500,000-600,000 folks hit the woods. The number of incidents goes up drastically because of the number of people in the field. 

I'd like to be able to side with you guys and claim bow hunters are respectful and rule abiding, but I simply have way too much experience telling me otherwise. I'm a bow hunter at heart and really don't like many aspects of gun hunting and the gun season. I believe every story shared and have several of my own...some almost mind blowing. But, I don't think it is fair to say the gun hunters are worse.....there are just a lot more of us out in a very short season.

And there simply is very little enforcement....again a volume issue. We are basically policing ourselves as a community. This is why I blame only US, the deer hunters for lack of #'s and the decline in hunting according to many. Regardless of what the state sets as the limits who do you think kills all the deer.LOL


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

Bowhunter57 said:


> I was fishing on the bank of a public lake, when a man walked up behind me and asked how the fishing was going. He was standing on the upper portion of the graveled bank, when I said that it was going slow.
> 
> He then asked if I had a dollar. I said that I don't carry any cash. He started toward me and said, "C'mon man. You've got to have something."
> 
> ...


i understand how you feel. but its a good thing he didnt call the law. thats called brandishing a firearm, and very illegal. you could have ended up in jail.

anything you do you have to be ready to deal with that 10% that just dont get it. but putting your hand on your gun and showing it isnt always the right thing to do. now if the guy was threating you or your family is something different. but just bumbing money isnt much of a threat.
sherman


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

sherman51 said:


> i understand how you feel. but its a good thing he didnt call the law. thats called brandishing a firearm, and very illegal. you could have ended up in jail.
> 
> anything you do you have to be ready to deal with that 10% that just dont get it. but putting your hand on your gun and showing it isnt always the right thing to do. now if the guy was threating you or your family is something different. but just bumbing money isnt much of a threat.
> sherman


O god...here we go...How would he prove that he brandished a gun?..It would just be his word against his...and he did say the guy stepped toward him so...u do what needs to be done in that situation.


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## bass pro (Mar 16, 2009)

fishn fool ---- i wish i could agree with you but i have not ran into this problem other than when gun season comes in. been hunting this area 10 plus years and never see a soul until gun season. 

all im trying to say is whether its bow gun or muzzleloader, show some respect if someone is hunting and you see their car or them go else where. there is plenty of land, if you just ask, to hunt. 

and someone asked about written permission it is absolutely a must to have it or you could get fined

good luck the last couple of days


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

bass pro said:


> and someone asked about written permission it is absolutely a must to have it or you could get fined


Not completely true. If the land owner says they gave that person verbal permission, the game warden isnt writing a ticket. Some people wont sign a piece of paper giving permission, but are happy to let someone hunt. The game wardens understand this.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> Not completely true. If the land owner says they gave that person verbal permission, the game warden isn&#8217;t writing a ticket. Some people won&#8217;t sign a piece of paper giving permission, but are happy to let someone hunt. The game wardens understand this.



Written permission is a MUST! The law is very clear on this issue. "A person MUST carry written permission at all times while engaging in hunting or trapping on private land and exhibit it upon request to a state wildlife officer, sheriff, deputy sheriff, police officer, other law enforcement officer, owner of the land or the landowners authorized agent." A game warden can definately write you a ticket for hunting on private land without written permission.


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## Barbdea (Dec 1, 2012)

How many antlerless deer is a land owner allowed to harvest? Thanks 'new' on this site!


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

For a while ive been pretty open towards gun season....until this morning watching these guys line the roads with people standing and riding on quads just plowing through sets of woods even if they have permission or not.....I sat n thought about all the hours/money I have in this year alone getting prepped and deer patterned and more....and to know that some random people are trespassing and stealing and more.....KILLs me. I definitely do not want gun season to be done away with....but more restrictions would be huge....I think having the opportunity to gun hunt is a good thing especially for us bow hunters who have had good deer stay out of range and if we had more range we could have taken the trophy.....

If it were me....do away with being able to drive woods especially in large groups. It should be treated the same way as in with bow season....no one would drive a woods during archery season....gun hunting should be treated as a privledge and the hunting circumstances should be the same. Just be I guess but this morning really got too me.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

Barbdea said:


> How many antlerless deer is a land owner allowed to harvest? Thanks 'new' on this site!


im not sure just how many permits a land owner can get. i think alot of it depends on how much land they own and how much crop damage they have. then the dnr determines how many deer need to be taken off that land. but i could be wrong. maby somebody that knows for sure will chime in. but im pretty sure thats how they do it here in indiana. and alot of ohio,s laws are about the same as indiana.

here in indiana besides the land owner permits about 60 or 70 percent of our counties are set at 8 anterless deer. as long as you buy the permits there is no limit to how many anterless deer you can take as long as you dont go over the county limit you are hunting. so legaly you could take 8 does in franklin county then move over to union county and take 8 more, and so on.
sherman


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

M.Magis said:


> Not completely true. If the land owner says they gave that person verbal permission, the game warden isnt writing a ticket. Some people wont sign a piece of paper giving permission, but are happy to let someone hunt. The game wardens understand this.





Agitation Free said:


> Written permission is a MUST! The law is very clear on this issue. "A person MUST carry written permission at all times while engaging in hunting or trapping on private land and exhibit it upon request to a state wildlife officer, sheriff, deputy sheriff, police officer, other law enforcement officer, owner of the land or the landowners authorized agent." A game warden can definately write you a ticket for hunting on private land without written permission.


Absolutely! There was a situation up here in Trumbull Cty, I believe, a few years back. GP shows up on private property to check a hunting party for licenses and permission slips. Well it just so happens that the *owner* of that property was in the hunting party! He told the GP that he owned the land and had given the guys permission to hunt there. GP didn't want to hear it! The encounter became very tense, needless to say. Very close to OK Corral time! Remember, a GP in a thin-pinching mood might even check you for a writing implement! A pen or pencil! If you don't have one how are you going to fill out your tag? True story.


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## bass pro (Mar 16, 2009)

i really hate it now NO DEER NOT EVEN A SHOT lol. seen seven saturday but couldnt shoot one running away and six out in a field (three does and three bucks one was gigantic!!!!!!) as i was driving back to my stand from lunch. oh well try again in a couple of weekends. hope everyone else did well


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't give written permission, but I am right there, so do my guest need it in writing?? If I wasn't going to be there I would write it out, but don't feel the need as it would take me to call for the game wardens to even come....being there is a lot of public around to keep the wardens busy anyway
I guess it would depend on the warden and his mood for that day


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

ironman172 said:


> I don't give written permission, but I am right there, so do my guest need it in writing?? If I wasn't going to be there I would write it out, but don't feel the need as it would take me to call for the game wardens to even come....being there is a lot of public around to keep the wardens busy anyway


To answer your question Yes. Written permission is a must on private land. More importantly, by law written permission releases the landowner of any liability incured for injury to person or property caused by any act of the recreational user. I had written permission to hunt on a farm in Tusco County. During the gun season, the landowner gave verbal permission to 4 guys. One of those guys, fell in a creek and broke his leg. He took the landowner to court and sued him. The landowner had to get an attorney and countersue. Lucky for the landowner he won but he did not recover his legal fees because his property was not posted. Go figure? The last thing you need is to end up with any problems. If you give permission do it in writting. It's also a good idea to have the recreational users of your land to give you their phone numbers. This way you can quickly inform them of any issues or changes you want to make. Also make sure you indicate if permission given is for a season or for only certain days. The DNR has a form on it's website you could print out and use. It's your land. CYA ironman.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

bass pro - I've seen everything imaginable in gun season, armies group hunting, trucks, atvs, rifles, blatant poaching...you name it I've seen it. My bow hunting areas on private ground in Clark, Greene & Fayette counties are all trashed and ruined by about 2pm Monday...pushed out by groups of folks (locals) with absolutely no permission at all. 
The activity and volume of gun season bothered me so much I quit hunting that season...just didn't need the headache. 

I agree with you...hunters aren't respectful as a group. But, neither is any group of people....fishermen?LOL

I've seen everything mentioned above except chasing with ATVs and trucks (only because it would be fruitless IMO) committed in volume by bow hunters as well. Bow hunters like to claim they take the high road, but unfortunately that's just not the case. 

IMO there are too many folks hunting in a short period of time...cancel the 4 month bow season & open bow for only the second week in Nov - unleash 600k bow hunters on the state and IMO it wouldn't be much different. IMO it is the style that many of these gun hunters use - bow hunters don't like a gang of guys pushing every piece of cover, shooting at running deer and hunting in a manner different than they prefer.

Personally I don't drive deer and prefer to sit quietly all day in wait. However, I realize that isn't how everybody hunts. I'm not making excuses for people violating the laws, but this conversation happens every year. Of course there are problems when 600k folks hunt a 7 day season. 

To each their own, but IMO bow hunters are every bit as bad as gun hunters....I see us as a single group of deer hunters and as a group we have a lot of problems.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

Agitation Free said:


> To answer your question Yes. Written permission is a must on private land. More importantly, by law written permission releases the landowner of any liability incured for injury to person or property caused by any act of the recreational user. I had written permission to hunt on a farm in Tusco County. During the gun season, the landowner gave verbal permission to 4 guys. One of those guys, fell in a creek and broke his leg. He took the landowner to court and sued him. The landowner had to get an attorney and countersue. Lucky for the landowner he won but he did not recover his legal fees because his property was not posted. Go figure? The last thing you need is to end up with any problems. If you give permission do it in writting. It's also a good idea to have the recreational users of your land to give you their phone numbers. This way you can quickly inform them of any issues or changes you want to make. Also make sure you indicate if permission given is for a season or for only certain days. The DNR has a form on it's website you could print out and use. It's your land. CYA ironman.


the only ones that are invited are good friends and stay with me in the cabin for the week or how ever long....heck I just don't know there phone number, but where they live....
I am very particular who comes and in the woods with me....so no worries....I had another friend, a few years back do something that didn't sit well at all with me and he has never been back(invited)....I guess he just got his own land not to far away....... so I wish him luck with it 
my guest eat well....this past weekend I served surf & turf
sword fish and beef tender lion (Friday night) 
yellow fin tuna and deer backstraps from the bow kill earlier in the season (Saturday)


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

ironman172 said:


> I don't give written permission, but I am right there, so do my guest need it in writing?? If I wasn't going to be there I would write it out, but don't feel the need as it would take me to call for the game wardens to even come....being there is a lot of public around to keep the wardens busy anyway
> I guess it would depend on the warden and his mood for that day





Agitation Free said:


> To answer your question Yes. Written permission is a must on private land. More importantly, by law written permission releases the landowner of any liability incured for injury to person or property caused by any act of the recreational user. I had written permission to hunt on a farm in Tusco County. During the gun season, the landowner gave verbal permission to 4 guys. One of those guys, fell in a creek and broke his leg. He took the landowner to court and sued him. The landowner had to get an attorney and countersue. Lucky for the landowner he won but he did not recover his legal fees because his property was not posted. Go figure? The last thing you need is to end up with any problems. If you give permission do it in writting. It's also a good idea to have the recreational users of your land to give you their phone numbers. This way you can quickly inform them of any issues or changes you want to make. Also make sure you indicate if permission given is for a season or for only certain days. The DNR has a form on it's website you could print out and use. It's your land. CYA ironman.


So true! And also, the permission form is on page 4 of the hunting regs booklet. Easy to make photocopies of it, and have everybody sign one. Let them fill it out! Why take the chance? You may think you know all these guys really well, and they'd never do something like sue you for an injury they suffered on your property, but sometimes people get really weird about money! Protect yourself!


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## bass pro (Mar 16, 2009)

fish n fool --- you are absolutely right. if they did that for bow season there would be a flock of wild and crazy arrow slingers lol. and fishermen can be buttholes to lol. but thats every sport. im a coonhunter mainly and those guys wow buttholes and liars. so it comes with every sport. 

i go out and recieve multiple permission slips every year to hunt and if a land owner wont give written i dont hunt it dont want the hastle. it protects the landowner and i just dont want to listen to the gamewarden all night or day long. you go to court and have to drag the landowner in with you cause he gave you verbal or have to wake him up late one night to tell the gw he gave you permission most likely that land becomes unavailable to hunt because it was a hassle. catch my drift


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

buckeyebowman said:


> So true! And also, the permission form is on page 4 of the hunting regs booklet. Easy to make photocopies of it, and have everybody sign one. Let them fill it out! Why take the chance? You may think you know all these guys really well, and they'd never do something like sue you for an injury they suffered on your property, but sometimes people get really weird about money! Protect yourself!


you are so right and think I will do just that....just in case....don't need any extra stress in my life


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## icefisherman4life (Aug 5, 2007)

you can get permission slips from the ODNR offices and they are carbon copies so you only gotta fill it out once and the landowner keeps one copy and you got the other. way easier.


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