# Navigable water/Trespassing Question



## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

So me and quite a few other guys have fished crane creek/magee marsh area for years. You can enter in from lake erie which theres no signs that says anything off limits or no fishing. Theres also nothing designated on ODNR's website about being off limits nor on magee marsh's webpage which it says fishing is permitted in designated area's but it does not have a map on what those areas are. When you go on google maps and zoom in to the entrance where you come in and out of from the lake it says crane creek literally right on top of it. The last time I was in there fishing a worker had stopped and asked how we were doing and asked if we entered in from the lake and I said yes and he said okay no problem. We asked if it was an issue and he said no as long as you enter from the lake it is fine, they dont like people in there fishing but its legal and told us to have a good day and good luck. 

Well last saturday for my fishing tournament we made an hour plus run to go fish it in 3' waves and once we got there we had a guy screaming from behind bushes and cat tails yelling that we were not allowed to be in there and its off limits. As we discuss back and forth and he keeps getting louder I keep telling him that we are not trying to argue with him we are just trying to be on the same page and he assured us that "hes a federal officer and he is the law and hes telling us we arent allowed to be in there" I asked if he could walk up a little ways further so we dont have to yell and be on the same page since we were probably 50 yards from eachother and the wind was howling. After doing that and just agreed with him since it was during tourny hours and we ran there and cant fish we decided to leave. When doing so he wanted my name and phone number so I cooperated and did so. The following day around 1:30pm I get a phone call while fishing the second day of the tourney and had a weird feeling it was his number. I answered and he wanted to meet face to face, I kept asking why and he wouldnt tell me and assured me he had to see me face to face. Told me he would come to my house and read off my address and I told him he has no reason to come to my house if its so urgent he can meet me at my weigh in and he said he would be there......

Well long story short hes there to write me a ticket for the day before for trespassing. I said how can I get a trespassing ticket when theres no signs at the entrance and nothing on ODNR site nor on magee marsh's site and he said there were signs up front but it was washed away from the waves a while ago and he has not had time to replace them. So I told him I was going to ask him again if there were any signs out front that I would of known it was off limits and he said no. He wrote me out a $280 ticket. and obviously wasnt happy so he said if I do not pay it there will be a court hearing which they will notify me by mail and its all the way up in toledo. So now I have to miss a day of work and drive to Toledo over this.

Am I in the wrong? Anyone have any insight? Isnt it some sort of entrapment to not have signs out front and ticket them before giving them the option to leave? I didnt even cast a line saturday while in there I literally pulled in and within 15 seconds he was screaming at us....???

HELP!


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

Wow... sounds like he didn't have have a good morning....
My wife always looks at me funny when I say I hate people.... This is why.

Let us know how this turns out.


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## garshark (Aug 23, 2011)

I would fight the ticket. I dont think u did anything legally wrong


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## M R DUCKS (Feb 20, 2010)

Interpretation is a good way for the gov't to make money.


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## M R DUCKS (Feb 20, 2010)

I have a story that many say "that's BS" but it was cheaper to pay the ticket then to try to protest/explain. (due to time off and travel)
I do want to have a conversation with ODNR in the future, and wouldn't be surprised to see some changes in the rules and regs next year.


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

I think it is clear if you did not anchor or tie off, you are not trespassing. The water is still in the public domain. But I am no lawyer. 

Can you give us the officers name? He owes you his name and an explanation of your offense the day you are being charged. Isn't that basic rights for us citizens. Boy I hate to hear stories about lawmen overstepping their bounds like this. Makes the rest of them look untrustworthy. And I am one of the first persons to support our lawmen and women.

Rickerd


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

I have called and asked about entering thru there before and was told since it was inside the Crane creek boundaries I wasn't allowed . This was for bowfishing about 6 or so years ago but I was told no go .


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

I would not have given my phone number. I would get his badge number and his name and the name of his supervisor and I'd report that rude jerk.


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## mike hunt (Jan 19, 2014)

Try to get a cop to write someone a ticket for trespassing on your property, they'll tell you that you don't have signs that are visible to potential trespassers. It' refreshing when a cop or GW comes up to you and doesn't look for something to write you a ticket for


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## AtticaFish (Nov 23, 2008)

So i am assuming once you enter from the lake, it is part of the Ottawa NWR. Here is their rules and regs page.......

https://www.fws.gov/refuge/Ottawa/visit/rules_and_regulations.html

At the bottom they have prohibited items. Says boating and canoeing in designated areas only. Going to be an uphill battle to fight that one i have a feeling. If it was me, think i'd chalk it up as a (costly) lesson learned. 

On the other hand, the ODNR site mentions there is _*"A small boat ramp at the Turtle Creek fishing access provides access to Lake Erie, and a parking lot for anglers is also located there"*_

http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/mageemarsh#tabr4

I don't see where there is any boat ramp and i do know the ODNR site does have errors in other places. I do not know the area first hand either.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

Its the principal... fight it. I have fought tickets and lost and came out cheaper for some reason.


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## erie sniper (Apr 30, 2017)

Sorry to say but you are screwed. The problem is, he's a Fed. He's gonna claim that you were in Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge and they don't want anyone in there ever. I have been in National Wildlife Refuges all over this country and Ottawa is the worst for access. If they could, they wouldn't allow anyone in there ever. Not people friendly at all.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I normally just pay because im usually in the wrong. but in your case I would have to take the time to fight it or plead guilty with mitigating factors (no signs posted). he must to have been a real di#k to have give you a ticket unless you got smart with him. but I would want the judge to know the area because the guy was to busy to post new signs. good luck and be sure and let us know if you fight it how it turns out.
sherman


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

I would call the findlay office ask for some advice.

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## AtticaFish (Nov 23, 2008)

erie sniper said:


> ........been in National Wildlife Refuges all over this country and Ottawa is the worst for access. If they could, they wouldn't allow anyone in there ever. Not people friendly at all.


I have only been there once. My wife and I took my daughter there when she was maybe a year old to hike a little with her in the backpack. We brought along cold cut sandwiches and drinks in a cooler. After we walked a few trails (many of the trails were closed at the time) and toured the nature center building, we got out the cooler, laid down a blanket on the grass and sat down to eat. They promptly came over and informed us that we were not aloud to have a picnic in the park and that we would have to leave to eat our food somewhere else. We packed up and ate our food in the car. Can't say i have ever been back.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

Sounds like a good place to avoid altogether. What a shame.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Ya I was calm the entire confrontation, I even said multiple times as he kept getting louder that I wasnt here to argue and was just only trying to get the exacts since I was told by an employee before that I was able to fish there while we were fishing. I'll definitely let you know what happens im not going to just pay it I will go to court for the day im alright with it.


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## aquaholic2 (Feb 17, 2010)

Scum_Frog said:


> Ya I was calm the entire confrontation, I even said multiple times as he kept getting louder that I wasnt here to argue and was just only trying to get the exacts since I was told by an employee before that I was able to fish there while we were fishing. I'll definitely let you know what happens im not going to just pay it I will go to court for the day im alright with it.


Don't buckle Frog...this guys reaction was way over the top...you are innocent until he proves you are guilty. He was betting on you just paying the ticket like 99% of guys who they slap silly tickets on. If they don't keep their signs posted, any moral Judge should side with you. The proper response from him should have been a "friendly/professional" warning, end of discussion. Our own ODNR officers are not much better, example is the tickets written for a size or limit violation on a boat with several guys. They simply say someone is going to get a ticket, and expect one of the group to take to fall...which most guys will do just to get the situation behind them. This is BS....usually the guys truly don't know who caught the illegal fish, so admitting to it is probably a crime in itself. Again, for a first time offense, a warning and a check mark on each anglers electronic record should be the response. If the WO wants to write a ticket, he should be forced to "prove" who committed the violation...if he can't they need to address the regulation wording..


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## Hookedup330 (Jul 13, 2011)

Law enforcement overstepping their grounds again, happens every day unfortunately. But they can do no wrong there like a sovereign citizen. It's amazing how badly our constitutional rights are stepped on by them.


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## KPI (Jun 4, 2011)

I just wonder I have never had any issues with police or law enforcement!! it is society that is pushing these issues today! If there is no sign that says no trespassing and you go on someone’s property to hunt and get a ticket how is that any different just pay the ticket you should have done you homework and get writing from the officer in charge to fish the area if it was a gray area !!I mean I am sure his officers in charge ok d him to write you the ticket !!this is why I could not be in law enforcement I would right tickets for everything plate expired one day ticket,five over ticket,roll a stop sign ticket,brake/turn signal light out ticket 


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

scioto_alex said:


> I would not have given my phone number. I would get his badge number and his name and the name of his supervisor and I'd report that rude jerk.


Good point. And in Scum Frog's telling of the story I never read where he asked the guy to show some ID! Scam artists are everywhere! Was the guy in uniform? And not something that can be bought at a costume shop? 

As far as navigable water goes, I was under the impression that as long as you didn't beach your craft, set anchor, or set foot on shore or streambed, you were good to go. 



KPI said:


> I just wonder I have never had any issues with police or law enforcement!! it is society that is pushing these issues today! If there is no sign that says no trespassing and you go on someone’s property to hunt and get a ticket how is that any different just pay the ticket you should have done you homework and get writing from the officer in charge to fish the area if it was a gray area !!I mean I am sure his officers in charge ok d him to write you the ticket !!this is why I could not be in law enforcement I would right tickets for everything plate expired one day ticket,five over ticket,roll a stop sign ticket,brake/turn signal light out ticket
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You sound like an absolute joy to be around! You're right. Someone like you should not be an LEO! You have no sense of perspective. However, people like you are LEO's! Zealots are invariably dangerous! 

Have you ever been ticketed for going 36 in a 35 MPH zone? If so, you have just met someone like yourself, and I bet you were pissed! But, you violated the law! 

I've dealt with many LEO's in the past, and in no case were they rude or discourteous! They were very professional, which does not describe the behavior of the guy in the OP. 

There are all kinds of piss-ants who get a badge on their chest so they can go out and act like they're God!


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## KPI (Jun 4, 2011)

I am a joy to be around just hate when people bash LEO they are doing a job and then people say they are treated unfairly I mean you break the law and don’t do your homework you deserve a ticket that is all I am saying and if I got a ticket for 1 over I will pay the ticket and just keep my opinions to myself and not blame others I got a ticket obce for extended load my red flag blew off never said or bashed anyone just paid the ticket !!


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

aquaholic2 said:


> They simply say someone is going to get a ticket, and expect one of the group to take to fall...which most guys will do just to get the situation behind them. This is BS....usually the guys truly don't know who caught the illegal fish, so admitting to it is probably a crime in itself. Again, for a first time offense, a warning and a check mark on each anglers electronic record should be the response. If the WO wants to write a ticket, he should be forced to "prove" who committed the violation...if he can't they need to address the regulation wording..


Would you rather everyone on the boat to have their own cooler as is the rule in PA? Ohio allows people the ability to keep things simple and then you complain about the way LE has to deal with an issue such as this. Don't exceed the limit or keep undersized fish and you have no worries.
As for being a "first time offender," yeah right... First time they were caught.


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## aquaholic2 (Feb 17, 2010)

KPI said:


> I just wonder I have never had any issues with police or law enforcement!! it is society that is pushing these issues today! If there is no sign that says no trespassing and you go on someone’s property to hunt and get a ticket how is that any different just pay the ticket you should have done you homework and get writing from the officer in charge to fish the area if it was a gray area !!I mean I am sure his officers in charge ok d him to write you the ticket !!this is why I could not be in law enforcement I would right tickets for everything plate expired one day ticket,five over ticket,roll a stop sign ticket,brake/turn signal light out ticket
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your right you wouldn't make it in street law enforcement....there you have to prove guilt. You would want to work in wildlife law enforcement where all you have to do is pull out your pad and write tickets...no proof of guilt required


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## WLB (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't get it? I've fished that for many years and never had a problem.
I've talked with people on the bank plus talked to workers often and never was told to leave.
Maybe he was a duck hunter? I was told to stay away in the fall, but that was by duck hunters.
I thought the law was if you could float it was legal? I'll still fish it till I get kicked out or they post it. It sure wouldn't be hard for them to run a cable across the front of it.


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## erie sniper (Apr 30, 2017)

WLB said:


> Maybe he was a duck hunter? I was told to stay away in the fall, but that was by duck hunters.


I thought maybe he was getting chased out because of Duck Hunting Season too but Youth Duck is this weekend (Oct 6/7) and regular season starts Oct 13. I know at nearby Magee Marsh (State "owned") they will keep the general public out during Duck Season for safety reasons.


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

If you weren't allowed there I thought there had to be signage and just not a couple signs but every 50 feet or something like that. I like to watch those wildlife officer shows (Northwoods Law, etc.) and have seen numerous times where people did not get trespassing tickets due to improper signage. 

There are some areas by me where public state owned land runs parallel to privately owned land. The landowner has to post signs clearly or else they cant prosecute for trespassing. This came directly from a Wildlife Officer who patrols the state owned land. 

This situation seems a little different but if there are no signs clearly posted (even if they blew down), you should not get a trespassing ticket. I would take my day in court on this one.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

ODNR's Lake Erie Law Enforcement Unit in Sandusky, 419-625-8062
Give these guys a call.... they may be able to help.

I skimmed through a few different ohio laws regarding the subject but didn't see and diffinitive answer. This has been and will probably continue to be a hotly debated topic without an easy answer (Like, can you be a Supreame court justice if you were off the hook as a young adult 35 years ago).

Good luck!


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

My problem is with this entire situation is that most cases like this are "grey areas" and should be used by law enforcement as an opportunity to educate not write a ticket.
For the "law" its so much easier to catch the typical law biding citizen and write the ticket for $100 plus court costs than it is to really find the habitual offender and prosecute.

Dont be surprised if your fine is not much cheaper than the guy who catches 63 walleye over his limit and claims ignorance.........just my .000000000000002 cents


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

I f I were considering contesting the ticket, I would try to find out and research which judge I will be in front of. I’m guessing that some would actually listen to you and the circumstances, while others would be more hardcore/letter of the law types.


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

In all of my years on the water, I have encountered law enforcement only once. We were paddling on the Scioto up at Klondike and an officer called us over the the bank.

I was steering the canoe. I was a bit tempted to say Swim and try to catch us but I thought things would be simpler if we just complied. No tickets or anything, it just felt strange.

It was like when you're leaving a store, and a "greeter" requests to see your receipt. It leaves me feeling offended like I'm presumed to be untrustworthy.

Heh heh heh there was the time when another friend and I were paddling on the "downtown pool" on the Scioto in Columbus and the canoe had tags that had expired 13 years before.


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## Wow (May 17, 2010)

This whole encounter stinks, and I don't mean fish. Either you're leaving something out. or this guy is off his rocker. Truth matters, even if some people disregard it these days. Have your day in court. --Tim


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## KPI (Jun 4, 2011)

Since they dusted my original post just because of my opinion if you look at the web site and rules the activities described are illegal if you like it or not your at fault to bad so sad pay the ticket and get off your soap box people !!!!


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

KPI said:


> Since they dusted my original post just because of my opinion if you look at the web site and rules the activities described are illegal if you like it or not your at fault to bad so sad pay the ticket and get off your soap box people !!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol, seems you are on the box more than anyone. He has every right to go to court on the case if he doesn’t think it’s right.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

LIKE !!


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## Hookedup330 (Jul 13, 2011)

bobk said:


> Lol, seems you are on the box more than anyone. He has every right to go to court on the case if he doesn’t think it’s right.


glad I wasn't the only one thinking it. Wasn't sure if it was a box or a rag.


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## Mrwiggler (Jan 26, 2017)

HAHA ^^^^^^^^


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## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

I know this would take some time but go back to the entrance from Lake Erie and take a few pictures that show no signs and take them to court when you go. good luck


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

The Feds control that area. The navigable water rule does not apply. Your not dealing with an Odnr game warden your dealing with a federal game warden. Just pay the ticket and move on.


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## Gradyfish (Jan 22, 2017)

Hookedup330 said:


> glad I wasn't the only one thinking it. Wasn't sure if it was a box or a rag.


This is a definite “like”


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

fireline said:


> I know this would take some time but go back to the entrance from Lake Erie and take a few pictures that show no signs and take them to court when you go. good luck


LIKE


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## 40xmax (Jun 10, 2018)

bobk said:


> Lol, seems you are on the box more than anyone. He has every right to go to court on the case if he doesn’t think it’s right.


Like


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

fireline said:


> I know this would take some time but go back to the entrance from Lake Erie and take a few pictures that show no signs and take them to court when you go. good luck


Yep, no sign no fine. I would go to jail before I would pay that. 

3 lessons here,, 1. NEVER trust any law enforcement, they are not now and never will be your friend. 2. Never give out your info to anyone unless you absolutely have too. 3. Never meet face to face , after a phone call, with anyone you do not know. If a LEO wants you bad enough, make 'em work for it. Make that 4 lessons,, if anyone shouts at you from a bank, pretend you don't see them and ease on away. 

I hate it that it has to be that way but from Game Wardens on up it has become all about the money.- Pirates. I used to enjoy chatting with game wardens, now since I have found out why they want to chat, I will not give them the time of day. I give only what is legally required of me and not that if I can snake by.


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## ErieRider (Mar 23, 2010)

Quite the conversation going on here! Really shouldn't be throwing my thoughts out because someone will take them wrong! I will say you have your day in court and that it's the place to debate it. Not here, with the officer on scene or the next day. While I can sympathize with the post and the issue at hand I also feel there was a lack of preparation entering the situation to begin with. You said you spoke to a "worker". That leads me to believe he had no authority to give you the blessing to fish there and I sure as heck wouldn't be taking his word as gospel. A simple search that took me two seconds to complete revealed a list of allowed activities in the area. 1) Fishing was not one of them listed and 2) Boating was BUT in designated areas, Which were not clear in the rules that I saw. With that listed like it was, you could rest assured I would be researching it beyond belief for my protection in this very situation and also to avoid an issue on tournament day which could potentially turn my limited time upside down. A big what if but what if your tournament rules state, which a bunch do, you must abide by all aspects of the law during tournament hours. It does not ever say, just the ones you know. So right there you could have faced a DQ. 
I was fishing with a very well known national tour fisherman and he had a plan to evade the field and gain around 30 minutes of extra fishing time by avoiding a no wake zone the tournament anglers were to follow after being released. He was on the phone with the authorities in the area along with the tournament director prior to the tourney start to verify he was legit and there was no issue on the tourney side. It worked out and we did well but he sure covered all his bases prior to acting. I'm not sure if you did that in this case but I would have either stopped in or made contact with somebody and had documentation with a name and badge number and their contact info at minimum, if they gave you the go ahead. Any doubt, I would not have gone. Sounds like you did have some doubt, since you had to ask some worker guy before if it is ok during a conversation. 
You have the legal right to go to court and contest your charge. That is why this country is great. But on the other hand, if I could find what activities are allowed so easily, it could be tough. I also do know, in Ohio there is culpable mental states and one of them is knowingly, which is used in trespassing meaning "without privilege to do so, KNOWINGLY enter the property of another......." However, federal trespassing does not have the mental state requirement the feds simple state "without authorization or permission." Either way best of luck. 

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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

KPI said:


> I am a joy to be around just hate when people bash LEO they are doing a job and then people say they are treated unfairly I mean you break the law and don’t do your homework you deserve a ticket that is all I am saying and if I got a ticket for 1 over I will pay the ticket and just keep my opinions to myself and not blame others I got a ticket obce for extended load my red flag blew off never said or bashed anyone just paid the ticket !!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seriously? If you got a ticket for 1 mph over you'd just shut your mouth and pay it? You're a doormat! 
As far as the red flag goes, I've hauled my extension ladder in my little S-10 p/up more times than I can relate. I put a red flag on it, and made damn sure it would NOT come off! If your flag came off, it's because you didn't secure it well enough so yes, you deserved the ticket! 

In no way did your reply address the unprofessional behavior of the LEO! 



Flathead76 said:


> The Feds control that area. The navigable water rule does not apply. Your not dealing with an Odnr game warden your dealing with a federal game warden. Just pay the ticket and move on.


I suspected that this might be the case. However, is not the tax paying public worthy of fair warning? I think they are! 

And let's not ignore the "job security" aspect of this question. I've heard of guys coming off of Erie at 'Bula' and Conneaut, being stopped by Homeland Security after they pull out! Like they're a gang of ISIS terrorists here to invade the country! 

How do you demonstrate your value to those who employ you? Activity! It doesn't really matter whether it accomplishes anything or not! The only result is that you stay employed!


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

scioto_alex said:


> In all of my years on the water, I have encountered law enforcement only once. We were paddling on the Scioto up at Klondike and an officer called us over the the bank.
> 
> I was steering the canoe. I was a bit tempted to say Swim and try to catch us but I thought things would be simpler if we just complied. No tickets or anything, it just felt strange.


That dredges up an old teenage memory.
Early 80s and had a runabout way up a small river, We had dropped anchor opposite side of the local teenage swimming spot.

We were enjoying a beer and a smoke, cheering on the rope swinging divers, when a deputy sheriff walked down the bank (hoping to catch the swimmers and rope swingers drinking I guess) He called us over and we invited him to swim out.
That went on back and forth for about 15 mins until he broke out his radio at which time we pulled anchor and floated away waving while he cussed, threatened, and stomped. LOL

Miles away from a ramp and local LEOs at the time not having more than a small jon boat used for downings, we made an easy escape. I was surprised that he did not run the registration numbers and track me to the house but I don't believe he even thought about it until after we were out of range.


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## ErieRider (Mar 23, 2010)

If the topic at hand of the OP can't be discussed in normal, neutral terms why don't we just shut this thread down? The OP posted a question about the legality of a situation and because of a few guys turns into an anti/pro LE thread!
This was the question portion of the OP, I think sticking to these original questions would be beneficial to all!! See below for the questions:

Am I in the wrong? Anyone have any insight? Isnt it some sort of entrapment to not have signs out front and ticket them before giving them the option to leave? I didnt even cast a line saturday while in there I literally pulled in and within 15 seconds he was screaming at us....???

HELP!

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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

ErieRider said:


> If the topic at hand of the OP can't be discussed in normal, neutral terms why don't we just shut this thread down? The OP posted a question about the legality of a situation and because of a few guys turns into an anti/pro LE thread!
> This was the question portion of the OP, I think sticking to these original questions would be beneficial to all!! See below for the questions:
> 
> Am I in the wrong? Anyone have any insight? Isnt it some sort of entrapment to not have signs out front and ticket them before giving them the option to leave? I didnt even cast a line saturday while in there I literally pulled in and within 15 seconds he was screaming at us....???
> ...


Like! Voice of Reason...


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## JamesF (May 20, 2016)

L


Hookedup330 said:


> glad I wasn't the only one thinking it. Wasn't sure if it was a box or a rag.


Like!


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Questions regarding law enforcement or violations on the refuge should be directed to Joshua Bauer, Federal Wildlife Officer, Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge. Phone is 419-898-0014 ext. 32, and e-mail is [email protected].


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

buckeyebowman said:


> Seriously? If you got a ticket for 1 mph over you'd just shut your mouth and pay it? You're a doormat!
> As far as the red flag goes, I've hauled my extension ladder in my little S-10 p/up more times than I can relate. I put a red flag on it, and made damn sure it would NOT come off! If your flag came off, it's because you didn't secure it well enough so yes, you deserved the ticket!
> 
> In no way did your reply address the unprofessional behavior of the LEO!
> ...


A asked a federal game warden about fishing this exact water that this thread is about. He highly discouraged it and said that anyone back there would receive a ticket.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Flathead76 said:


> A asked a federal game warden about fishing this exact water that this thread is about. He highly discouraged it and said that anyone back there would receive a ticket.


Evidently it is confusing, some fishing--somewhere, some boating--somewhere. I have to think that no signage plus confusing equals no fine. But you would have to go to court loaded for bear.


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

This will be my last little bit about this. If boating is allowed in "designated areas" and he never casted a line, like he said, then isn't he technically boating and not fishing?

Personally, I don't care what a website about this area says, permitted and prohibited activities should be clearly marked and from all entrances to the place. I have seen plenty of areas that are off limits to fishing. You know what they all have in common? Signs letting the public know.

When I was going to school at Ohio State, I had just moved into an apartment on N. 4th street. I woke up to my SUV being towed because it was street cleaning day for the side of the street I was parked on. I went out and argued with the police office and the tow truck driver because there were no signs about street cleaning on that side of the street for my block. They towed my SUV but i contested my ticket. I took pictures of that side of the street with no signs and took them to court. I won my argument, judge said because I had just moved in and there were no signs, there was no way for me to know that I was illegally parked. Didn't have to pay the fine and impound fee was reimbursed. 2 days later there were 5 signs on wood stakes on that side of the road. 

Signs matter and the public needs to be notified of prohibited activities.


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## ErieRider (Mar 23, 2010)

The original post said the first time he fished there he spoke to a ”worker" not a federal game warden. Only after being contacted the second time by the warden did he mention it was a federal law enforcement representative. With that said I guess reading comprehension is beneficial for more than trespassing signs (if there are any)
I know it's not trespassing but Camp Perry has an active firing range. If you enter it by accident when active because either you were not in view of the warning light or you missed the radio broadcast should you not be in violation of the restricted area? Or you get verbal permission to hunt a property down the road. You should have written permission. If you don't have a note, there's a good chance that you are going to be further questioned and taken away from your hunt, if you are stopped. So why not just get the note like you should?
My whole point is do your research yourself, some legwork, make sure your bases are covered and document your findings to ensure if you encounter an issue that you can back your side of the story. 
None of us were there so we can't comment on the demeanor of anyone on scene. However, read the post again. The OP said there was a howling wind and they had to move closer to not be yelling at each other. Maybe, just maybe, the warden was downwind and the OP was upwind. Therefore, the officer may have copped an attitude because he could plainly hear the OP and took it as him yelling at the officer because the OP was yelling back because he could not hear the officer due to the officer having to yell against the wind. Not acceptable to have an attitude on either side because of that but not being there and only hearing one side of the story we all are kind of spinning our wheels on this. I always say there are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle! I make that statement not to say someone is not telling the truth but because there are two perspectives to each side and because we were not there we can't say who was right or wrong and who viewed the interaction in what manner. Again, if the area was under federal control, like I said in an earlier post, the federal law does not say knowingly, it simply states without authorization, so that is easier to prove without signage. Like prohibited airspace under federal control, you better have done research and about flying into it or you will be paid a visit regardless of if there is a sign or not!!! Lol..... I'm done and I'm bowing out on this one. Again, best of luck with your case, if you choose that route.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

Snakecharmer said:


> Questions regarding law enforcement or violations on the refuge should be directed to Joshua Bauer, Federal Wildlife Officer, Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge. Phone is 419-898-0014 ext. 32, and e-mail is [email protected].


This is a great example of the good use that a board can serve, distributing information. That's why I first joined here under my FOSR login though I try to only use that for river group business.

As for that parking near the OSU campus - yes they started a program of street sweeping. Not that the streets actually need to be swept that much, but it's a way to keep all the parked vehicles in motion. Back in the day a vehicle could be parked indefinitely, and there were things like derelict vans with small trees sprouting around them.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

ErieRider said:


> The original post said the first time he fished there he spoke to a ”worker" not a federal game warden. Only after being contacted the second time by the warden did he mention it was a federal law enforcement representative. With that said I guess reading comprehension is beneficial for more than trespassing signs (if there are any)
> I know it's not trespassing but Camp Perry has an active firing range. If you enter it by accident when active because either you were not in view of the warning light or you missed the radio broadcast should you not be in violation of the restricted area? Or you get verbal permission to hunt a property down the road. You should have written permission. If you don't have a note, there's a good chance that you are going to be further questioned and taken away from your hunt, if you are stopped. So why not just get the note like you should?
> My whole point is do your research yourself, some legwork, make sure your bases are covered and document your findings to ensure if you encounter an issue that you can back your side of the story.
> None of us were there so we can't comment on the demeanor of anyone on scene. However, read the post again. The OP said there was a howling wind and they had to move closer to not be yelling at each other. Maybe, just maybe, the warden was downwind and the OP was upwind. Therefore, the officer may have copped an attitude because he could plainly hear the OP and took it as him yelling at the officer because the OP was yelling back because he could not hear the officer due to the officer having to yell against the wind. Not acceptable to have an attitude on either side because of that but not being there and only hearing one side of the story we all are kind of spinning our wheels on this. I always say there are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle! I make that statement not to say someone is not telling the truth but because there are two perspectives to each side and because we were not there we can't say who was right or wrong and who viewed the interaction in what manner. Again, if the area was under federal control, like I said in an earlier post, the federal law does not say knowingly, it simply states without authorization, so that is easier to prove without signage. Like prohibited airspace under federal control, you better have done research and about flying into it or you will be paid a visit regardless of if there is a sign or not!!! Lol..... I'm done and I'm bowing out on this one. Again, best of luck with your case, if you choose that route.
> ...



You bring up a good point here, to avoid a "he said, she said" (that you will most always be on the losing side of in court) for your protection, always video any interaction with LEOs. Or indeed anyone you may have a potential conflict with. The camera does not lie and makes for powerful evidence should it be needed. 

Be aware that there is no expectation of privacy in a public place, for anyone, and that public officials acting in their official capacity are fair game for recording. It is legal.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I have a friend in Jamestown tn that got a speeding ticket. he went to court with his driving record and the fact he had also been a truck driver and had logged so many million miles and that he was in his upper 60's and had never got so much as a warning ticket in that time with all those miles. he told the judge he wasnt speeding on purpose but drifted over a few mph. the judge threw his case out and said keep driving safe. so there are times if the judge knows all the facts he will rule in your favor. it depends on the judge and what mood he's in on that day.
sherman


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

Once in Worthington I got a ticket for running a stop sign that I actually stopped for. I went on my way and a few blocks later someone ran a stop sign right in front of me and I had to squeal the brakes. I was not in a pleasant state of mind.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pooka said:


> That dredges up an old teenage memory.
> Early 80s and had a runabout way up a small river, We had dropped anchor opposite side of the local teenage swimming spot.
> 
> We were enjoying a beer and a smoke, cheering on the rope swinging divers, when a deputy sheriff walked down the bank (hoping to catch the swimmers and rope swingers drinking I guess) He called us over and we invited him to swim out.
> ...


Hope you never run for office or the Supreme Court...………...Shame Shame....LOL


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/406044-zinke-looks-to-ease-some-wildlife-rules


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Snakecharmer said:


> Hope you never run for office or the Supreme Court...………...Shame Shame....LOL


LOL I used to think that my past, and some of my present, would disqualify me from Office.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pooka said:


> LOL I used to think that my past, and some of my present, would disqualify me from Office.


as they say nowadays "MeToo"


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## polebender (Oct 29, 2011)

Pooka said:


> LOL I used to think that my past, and some of my present, would disqualify me from Office.


These days they will make you a front runner!


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

So its been now well over a month since the incident and still had not received anything in the mail pertaining info on a court date or anything else. Today I finally called the Toledo Court system so see if they had any information on me and she ran my name, dob and ssn and ZERO came up on file. I asked her what that meant and her words were "more than likely the officer never filed the ticket" So I asked to be sure that if anyone at all had a ticket against me it would show up in your system and she said yes. So I said so im good to go? She said yes that it should of been filed by now if its been over a month and right now theres nothing against me.

Idk if its Karma or the officer came to his senses and decided not to turn the ticket in but as of right now im thankful and happy as long as it stays this way! LOL. I'll never have my boat in there again thats for sure!


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Scum_Frog said:


> So its been now well over a month since the incident and still had not received anything in the mail pertaining info on a court date or anything else. Today I finally called the Toledo Court system so see if they had any information on me and she ran my name, dob and ssn and ZERO came up on file. I asked her what that meant and her words were "more than likely the officer never filed the ticket" So I asked to be sure that if anyone at all had a ticket against me it would show up in your system and she said yes. So I said so im good to go? She said yes that it should of been filed by now if its been over a month and right now theres nothing against me.
> 
> Idk if its Karma or the officer came to his senses and decided not to turn the ticket in but as of right now im thankful and happy as long as it stays this way! LOL. I'll never have my boat in there again thats for sure!


That is great news!!!!!!!!!!


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## Redheads (Jun 9, 2008)

Good for you !!!! 

Problem is it still doesn't answer your questions.

Also after being written a ticket for "$280 " i would have even more questions and these i would require answers for.


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

That can of worms has been out of the fridge and closed for over a month now, why open it? Great to hear your story has a soft ending.
Rickerd


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## AtticaFish (Nov 23, 2008)

Scum_Frog said:


> ........I'll never have my boat in there again thats for sure!


That right there might have been his whole reason for doing what he did. Just might get a kick out of watching guys squirm and then leaving his sanctuary alone.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Scum_Frog said:


> So its been now well over a month since the incident and still had not received anything in the mail pertaining info on a court date or anything else. Today I finally called the Toledo Court system so see if they had any information on me and she ran my name, dob and ssn and ZERO came up on file. I asked her what that meant and her words were "more than likely the officer never filed the ticket" So I asked to be sure that if anyone at all had a ticket against me it would show up in your system and she said yes. So I said so im good to go? She said yes that it should of been filed by now if its been over a month and right now theres nothing against me.
> 
> Idk if its Karma or the officer came to his senses and decided not to turn the ticket in but as of right now im thankful and happy as long as it stays this way! LOL. I'll never have my boat in there again thats for sure!



5 years from now, probably date night with your wife, the day after a fishing mate loses his bottle of loratab in your truck, you will be pulled over for not signaling, arrested on a bench warrant for not paying the ticket, and after the search of your vehicle that finds the bottle, 10 years in the state pen for drug dealing. LOL

That would be my luck.

I think I would check on that again in a few months or a year. But then, maybe your license renewal would catch it?


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

what if you would have paid it instead of waiting to fight it?


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## Hookedup330 (Jul 13, 2011)

Might not be a bad idea to recheck everything in a month or so.. government workers are not known to work at lightning speeds.


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## $diesel$ (Aug 3, 2018)

Sounds to me like you unknowingly stepped on this fellas waterfowl hunt. 
It takes a special kind of man to be an officer of any type and there are, in my experience, 2 of those types; A: a good guy that truely does his job accordingly, B: the kid everyone picked on in school that seeks revenge for the childhood abuse.
Sounds like you ran into a type B! I personnally would fight the no sign angle as far as i could.
Plus, this man HUNTED you down on a different day. Sounds like a bit of mental instability to me.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Dovans said:


> what if you would have paid it instead of waiting to fight it?


I wouldnt sign anything or take anything from him so I had nothing to pay. Only thing I can think of is when I took a video of him admitting that there were no signs out front and I had no way of knowing he probably didnt want to waste time since I said I would see him at court and it would of been a day during water fowl season? Who knows. I will definitely check again just to be sure and continue to watch the mail but im grateful if its just dropped and disappears.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Scum_Frog said:


> I wouldnt sign anything or take anything from him so I had nothing to pay. Only thing I can think of is when I took a video of him admitting that there were no signs out front and I had no way of knowing he probably didnt want to waste time since I said I would see him at court and it would of been a day during water fowl season? Who knows. I will definitely check again just to be sure and continue to watch the mail but im grateful if its just dropped and disappears.


Shame it has to be this way but it is always a good idea to video your interactions with law enforcement. Video does not lie and, if it fails to keep everyone honest, it does make for great evidence.


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## J. Tyler cline (Jun 30, 2018)

I would be wanting answers from the guys boss. I'd make sure he lost his job


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

Let Sleeping dogs lay.,


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## scioto_alex (Dec 30, 2015)

Aren't the ticket forms numerically controlled? I would think an officer would have to account for each one. Maybe he has an administrative option to turn the ticket in, voided.


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## 1morecast (Jun 13, 2007)

a few years back I received a ticket from a young ODNR officer for fishing on private property on a very popular spot on the grand river for bass with my 7 year old son. There where no signs posted and he told me that it is every individuals responsibility to know if the area that they are fishing is private property or not. I went to court to fight it, the judge was real nice and I was put on probation for 6 months to remove the ticket from my record, no one wants a trespassing violation on their record he told me. I paid court costs and fees which totaled 280$
a proper warning would have been nice.


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## mike hunt (Jan 19, 2014)

1morecast said:


> a few years back I received a ticket from a young ODNR officer for fishing on private property on a very popular spot on the grand river for bass with my 7 year old son. There where no signs posted and he told me that it is every individuals responsibility to know if the area that they are fishing is private property or not. I went to court to fight it, the judge was real nice and I was put on probation for 6 months to remove the ticket from my record, no one wants a trespassing violation on their record he told me. I paid court costs and fees which totaled 280$
> a proper warning would have been nice.


That had to be that cops first day, any time I've called about trespassing, I get blown off


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

1morecast said:


> a few years back I received a ticket from a young ODNR officer for fishing on private property on a very popular spot on the grand river for bass with my 7 year old son. There where no signs posted and he told me that it is every individuals responsibility to know if the area that they are fishing is private property or not. I went to court to fight it, the judge was real nice and I was put on probation for 6 months to remove the ticket from my record, no one wants a trespassing violation on their record he told me. I paid court costs and fees which totaled 280$
> a proper warning would have been nice.


Hmmm That doesn't sound right. 
If the property is not posted and you have not been asked to leave, or did not leave when asked, or had been "trespassed" from the property in the past,, I don't think that a trespass violation occurred. 

How did the judge justify it?


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pooka said:


> Hmmm That doesn't sound right.
> If the property is not posted and you have not been asked to leave, or did not leave when asked, or had been "trespassed" from the property in the past,, I don't think that a trespass violation occurred.
> 
> How did the judge justify it?


Probably because the poster was caught on private property. Unlees you are fishing from a park on the river, its private property elsewhere.


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## 1morecast (Jun 13, 2007)

The odor guy said that every one needs to know the area they are fishing and that private property does not need to be posted. this is a famous fishing spot that I fished with my father 20 years ago on the grand up from Rt 20, it may be posted now but I don't fish it. The judge was a fisherman himself and and that I was issued a ticket while with my son and not a warning did seem to question the officer, either way, it was issued and all he could do was to get it off my record so probation and court costs where what I needed to do.
this may have been this officers first rodeo, but either way, any non public land or park would need permission from a land owner unless they do not care, and that seems to be less and less as more people wade the rivers and leave garbage everywhere.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

I think he knew you would fight it and he would lose and look like the dope he is for writing it in the first place. Trespassing when you were on federally defined navigable water is very weak in this case. You boated in and didn't have any land obstructions to do so, no portaging etc. That's the federal definition of navigable waters. Even the federal govt doesn't own the water. Only the land under it, so if you didn't anchor or tie up to anything land related then you're fine. 

SF, you're a good dude and I'm glad you didn't have to go to court over something silly like this.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

1morecast said:


> The odor guy said that every one needs to know the area they are fishing and that private property does not need to be posted. this is a famous fishing spot that I fished with my father 20 years ago on the grand up from Rt 20, it may be posted now but I don't fish it. The judge was a fisherman himself and and that I was issued a ticket while with my son and not a warning did seem to question the officer, either way, it was issued and all he could do was to get it off my record so probation and court costs where what I needed to do.
> this may have been this officers first rodeo, but either way, any non public land or park would need permission from a land owner unless they do not care, and that seems to be less and less as more people wade the rivers and leave garbage everywhere.


That still sounds hinkey to me.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=regContent

Above is the Feds navigable waters regulations


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Pooka said:


> That still sounds hinkey to me.


If it's not your property and you don't have permission to be there, you are trespassing. There are only a couple states in the good old USA where if it's not posted you can hunt or fish and they are both western states. If you don't own it, what makes you think it's ok to use the property? Makes me realize that common sense isn't that common I guess....


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Hatchetman said:


> If it's not your property and you don't have permission to be there, you are trespassing. There are only a couple states in the good old USA where if it's not posted you can hunt or fish and they are both western states. If you don't own it, what makes you think it's ok to use the property? Makes me realize that common sense isn't that common I guess....


If you read the story you might have noticed that the spot was heavily publicly used and had been for many years, (over 20 years as I recall) there were no signs posting the area, and that 1more and his son were not aware that it was privately owned. In fact he had much reason to believe that it was public. There seems to have been no intentional trespass = no crime. 

IMO, common sense says that rated a warning at the worst. 
I am left wondering if the judge, perhaps knowing that an appeal would likely be successful, did not just "good cop" him out of some money. 

I could also speculate about where he was fishing as being navigable water public easement, any unintentional trespass may only have been in accessing the spot, but I do not know the area so it would just be speculation. 

Anywho, that particular story is a dead issue, I just thought it was interesting. However the public's rights to access public resources is an ongoing issue and one I am passionate about.


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Pooka said:


> If you read the story you might have noticed that the spot was heavily publicly used and had been for many years, (over 20 years as I recall) there were no signs posting the area, and that 1more and his son were not aware that it was privately owned. In fact he had much reason to believe that it was public. There seems to have been no intentional trespass = no crime.
> 
> IMO, common sense says that rated a warning at the worst.
> I am left wondering if the judge, perhaps knowing that an appeal would likely be successful, did not just "good cop" him out of some money.
> ...


Again, if it's not yours it's someone elses!! Private...Public land is posted as such and even if it's not, then assume it's private !


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Hatchetman said:


> Again, if it's not yours it's someone elses!! Private...Public land is posted as such and even if it's not, then assume it's private !


Yes, I gathered that you are an "absolutist" however like much of life, the issue is not "black or white", there is a lot of grey area.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

There’s no grey area with private property. Stay the hell off it. It’s your responsibility to know the property lines.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pooka said:


> Yes, I gathered that you are an "absolutist" however like much of life, the issue is not "black or white", there is a lot of grey area.


In Ohio. land under a river can be private property. You can float though but touching bottom can be trespassing .....Should we assume you're a "Socialist' or "Communist"? You seem to be against private ownership of land.


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## Alaskan (Jun 19, 2007)

So you were in a tournament. I assume you had a partner. A couple of things come to mind. 
1-Was he issued a ticket?
2-If you fight the ticket in court, take him with you.
3-If he can't go, get a written statement on the events. 

It's bs he didn't just tell you , you cannot be here, you have to leave. You have to wonder why they can't comprehend why many of us have such distrust of the govt.


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## Alaskan (Jun 19, 2007)

bobk said:


> There’s no grey area with private property. Stay the hell off it. It’s your responsibility to know the property lines.


Actually there is gray area in this. He was told on a prior trip in there that it was legal. Next, it is a navigable waterway and he never stated that he anchored or beached. They are on pretty shaky ground writing a ticket for this in my opinion. Also, no signs, no buoys, no cable locks. Every federal refuge I've ever seen in Canada or the US seems to be posted every so many yards. I know. I've hunted right up next to them. In addition, I've also spent a lot of time on federal lands in National Parks. Paths, roads, and other throughways seem to almost always be posted with a federal trespass sign , even quoting the FRC if you are to not be in there. I think he has a case in this instance.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Hatchetman said:


> Again, if it's not yours it's someone elses!! Private...Public land is posted as such and even if it's not, then assume it's private !


Except that he was on water, navigable water as he was on a boat. He wins that battle in court EVERY single day!!! 

Navigable water by definition is not "property" that can be classified as private or public. Thus, he was not trespassing in the least.


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

crittergitter said:


> Except that he was on water, navigable water as he was on a boat. He wins that battle in court EVERY single day!!!
> 
> Navigable water by definition is not "property" that can be classified as private or public. Thus, he was not trespassing in the least.


It may be to complicated for you, but if you go back and read my original post it referred to the man and his son that was cited for fishing from the BANK on private property, not navigable waterways....


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Hatchetman said:


> It may be to complicated for you, but if you go back and read my original post it referred to the man and his son that was cited for fishing from the BANK on private property, not navigable waterways....


I thought you were commenting on the the OP. I didn't realize your quote referred to a guy's response to some other situation.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

bobk said:


> There’s no grey area with private property. Stay the hell off it. It’s your responsibility to know the property lines.


Some folks think that sounds good but it is not always the legal reality.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Snakecharmer said:


> In Ohio. land under a river can be private property. You can float though but touching bottom can be trespassing .....Should we assume you're a "Socialist' or "Communist"? You seem to be against private ownership of land.


No sir, you may not assume that. I am a passionate advocate for the rights of outdoors folks to legally access public resources.
Not a thing commie or socialist about it and throwing those boogyman words around does not change the reality and the reality is that some people are trying to take rights from you, the outdoors person.

Yes, that is the Ohio law, however that law is in conflict with Federal law, over 100 years of SCOTUS precedent and over a thousand of years of common law.

If you purchase land in a city, or any road front, you also are buying the public's right of way across your land on the sidewalk or road easement.
Similarly, when you purchase waterfront property on navigable water your purchase is also encumbered with a public easement.
Nothing about that is, new or radical. It is however, largely unknown.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

You are buying the land the sidewalk (easement) is on, but you aren't buying control of that property. The easement controls the use of the property, not the property owner.

As far as an earlier comment that federal property is usually clearly marked. Yes it certainly is, but the lack of being marked doesn't change the law. They take the no wake buoys down by bridges, but even if the buoys aren't up, you're still going to get a ticket if Johnny Law sees you blasting through under a bridge, and rightfully so.

As far as navigable water goes, it may be navigable water, but the feds and the state can control access to that water. Read the laws in the link I posted above. It tells you what the feds can and cannot do.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pooka said:


> Similarly, when you purchase waterfront property on navigable water your purchase is also encumbered with a public easement.
> Nothing about that is, new or radical. It is however, largely unknown.


So you believe if I own a house on the shore of Lake Erie, that you can park on the street and walk through my yard to fish in the lake while standing on my grass? Hmmm. Well if it walks like a duck.....


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Pooka said:


> Some folks think that sounds good but it is not always the legal reality.


Wrong, it more than sounds good. It's the law. I'm done with this nonsense.

Sorry, Jarrett. Glad you didn't get a ticket.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Snakecharmer said:


> So you believe if I own a house on the shore of Lake Erie, that you can park on the street and walk through my yard to fish in the lake while standing on my grass? Hmmm. Well if it walks like a duck.....


No. Accessing the public easement by crossing a property where there is not an ingress/egress easement is a no-no. Access would be from from the water or the/a "neighboring" easement. The easement is understood to extend to the ordinary high water mark. -- Not extraordinary flooding.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

A recent and ongoing case,, 

https://www.theindianalawyer.com/ar...plaintiff-taking-public-access-case-to-scotus


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

bobk said:


> There’s no grey area with private property. Stay the hell off it. It’s your responsibility to know the property lines.


It's really not the person's responsibility, it's the landowner, and I have been told as such by more than one ODNR officer. Both times while on public, state owned land that bordered private land. The state puts signage where their property starts around the gravel roads, but if private landowners want to be able to prosecute trespassers, they must have appropriate signage on their property. "You should have known!" doesn't work. According to ORC, to be criminal trespass, you have to "knowingly" be on private property or ignore signs and warnings. 

In my neck of the woods, people hold land they didn't even know they owned until oil and gas came knocking. Land that was left to them many years ago and only through title searches by the oil and gas companies, did they learn they owned it. How can you trespass on land, that nobody knew they owned? I guess I trespass almost every time I wade local creeks.

I will stick with what I was told by ODNR and what ORC says. If I see no signs, I am wading through and if I get asked about it, I didn't "know" it was private property.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> It's really not the person's responsibility, it's the landowner, and I have been told as such by more than one ODNR officer. Both times while on public, state owned land that bordered private land. The state puts signage where their property starts around the gravel roads, but if private landowners want to be able to prosecute trespassers, they must have appropriate signage on their property. "You should have known!" doesn't work. According to ORC, to be criminal trespass, you have to "knowingly" be on private property or ignore signs and warnings.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, people hold land they didn't even know they owned until oil and gas came knocking. Land that was left to them many years ago and only through title searches by the oil and gas companies, did they learn they owned it. How can you trespass on land, that nobody knew they owned? I guess I trespass almost every time I wade local creeks.
> 
> I will stick with what I was told by ODNR and what ORC says. If I see no signs, I am wading through and if I get asked about it, I didn't "know" it was private property.


Do you have "No Trespassing" signs around your house or can I come and sit on your lawn and have a picnic and shoot a couple turkeys during hunting season?


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## Irishtrooper (Jun 28, 2016)

On this cite I would like to think the vast majority would respect others property and any opinions they may have. If you would like to come sit on my lawn be my guest. My wife is pregnant, pissed off and seems to blame me. You can go grab food for whatever wierd ass craving she has today. Good luck finding peppermint ice cream before December. If you're here I'm going steelhead fishing, I got my deer for the year. ( I will make sure I'm on public land)


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## matticito (Jul 17, 2012)

Haven't read the 6 pages of comments but it would be worth your time and money to have pictures, video etc of the marsh and entrance to show there were no signs. Take all maps and internet info you mention to show there are no boundaries mapped as unfishable or a sanctuary of any sort. What a crock.


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## s.a.m (Feb 22, 2016)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> It's really not the person's responsibility, it's the landowner, and I have been told as such by more than one ODNR officer. Both times while on public, state owned land that bordered private land. The state puts signage where their property starts around the gravel roads, but if private landowners want to be able to prosecute trespassers, they must have appropriate signage on their property. "You should have known!" doesn't work. According to ORC, to be criminal trespass, you have to "knowingly" be on private property or ignore signs and warnings.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, people hold land they didn't even know they owned until oil and gas came knocking. Land that was left to them many years ago and only through title searches by the oil and gas companies, did they learn they owned it. How can you trespass on land, that nobody knew they owned? I guess I trespass almost every time I wade local creeks.
> 
> I will stick with what I was told by ODNR and what ORC says. If I see no signs, I am wading through and if I get asked about it, I didn't "know" it was private property.


Was told complete different story by local law enforcement "no trespassing signs are a courtesy",also wouldn't go wading down a Creek with out permission, heck in Michigan you can't even float down a Creek with out trespassing.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

No Trespassing signs are not a courtesy. You have to be notified you are on private property before you can be charged with Trespassing. Notification can take many forms (Signs, Fencing, etc).


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## s.a.m (Feb 22, 2016)

acklac7 said:


> No Trespassing signs are not a courtesy. You have to be notified you are on private property before you can be charged with Trespassing. Notification can take many forms (Signs, Fencing, etc).


So if I find you on my property i stop you and call law enforcement and i don't have signs out i can't press charges? B.S.
I do not have to have it posted!


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Irishtrooper said:


> On this cite I would like to think the vast majority would respect others property and any opinions they may have. If you would like to come sit on my lawn be my guest. My wife is pregnant, pissed off and *seems to blame me.* You can go grab food for whatever wierd ass craving she has today. Good luck finding peppermint ice cream before December. If you're here I'm going steelhead fishing, I got my deer for the year. ( I will make sure I'm on public land)


Better blaming you than blaming the neighbor for being pregnant....


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

s.a.m said:


> So if I find you on my property i stop you and call law enforcement and i don't have signs out i can't press charges? B.S.
> I do not have to have it posted!


Signs aren't required, but some sort of Notification is: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.21

You have to notify me in someway that the property is private. A driveway, a sign, a fence etc. It's in the law. The most common way is to notify via signage.

If im walking through public forest I can walk right onto your forested property (legally) unless you have somehow notified me the property is private. Notification can take many forms. This has been covered numerous times on here.

The only exception is if you're Hunting, then notification is not required to press charges.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

bobk said:


> There’s no grey area with private property. Stay the hell off it. It’s your responsibility to know the property lines.



This is 100% false. Read the law, it's pretty cut and dry. It is the landowners responsibility to provide notification the land is private. Only exception is if you are hunting, then you are correct. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.21


*2911.21 Criminal trespass.*

(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:

(1) *Knowingly* enter or remain on the land or premises of another;

(2) *Knowingly* enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, *as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;*

*(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.*

(B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.

(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Snakecharmer said:


> Do you have "No Trespassing" signs around your house or can I come and sit on your lawn and have a picnic and shoot a couple turkeys during hunting season?


Presence of a house would be considered adequate notification under the law. As would a trimmed lawn, tendered field, etc. Like I said notification can take many forms. But in the end it's the landowners responsibility to provide such notification.

For whatever reason some people (mostly strong conservative types) have this viewpoint that all property is private and it's up to the public to do there homework and study property lines to determine what is public and what is private (seems kind of silly to me, personally). It's just not the case.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> It's really not the person's responsibility, it's the landowner, and I have been told as such by more than one ODNR officer. Both times while on public, state owned land that bordered private land. The state puts signage where their property starts around the gravel roads, but if private landowners want to be able to prosecute trespassers, they must have appropriate signage on their property. "You should have known!" doesn't work. According to ORC, to be criminal trespass, you have to "knowingly" be on private property or ignore signs and warnings.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, people hold land they didn't even know they owned until oil and gas came knocking. Land that was left to them many years ago and only through title searches by the oil and gas companies, did they learn they owned it. How can you trespass on land, that nobody knew they owned? I guess I trespass almost every time I wade local creeks.
> 
> I will stick with what I was told by ODNR and what ORC says. If I see no signs, I am wading through and if I get asked about it, I didn't "know" it was private property.


I hope you don't have the same mindset as far as it being the landowners responsibilty to make sure you know where your at rather than you being responsible for knowing where you are at when it comes to hunting private property.
It may get a bit expensive for you...at least here in Fairfield and Hocking Co. 
And this area could use all the donations they can get 

I have spoke with both these GW's and them, like most all the GW's understand that with the new deer hunting changes this year for public property, they full well expect a huge flood of trespassing issues on private land. They are already aware and expecting the most used excuse will be, as always, "I didn't know this was private land"...or..."I thought this was so-n-so's land".
Bottom line,if you don't have in your possession written permission to be where you're standing, you ARE going to get cited for trespassing/hunting without permission. 
And I for one am very glad to hear they will finally be enforcing this law more consistently.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

fastwater said:


> I hope you don't have the same mindset as far as it being the landowners responsibilty to make sure you know where your at rather than you being responsible for knowing where you are at when it comes to hunting private property.
> It may get a bit expensive for you...at least here in Fairfield and Hocking Co.
> And this area could use all the donations they can get
> 
> ...


This is correct: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1533.17


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Pooka said:


> That still sounds hinkey to me.


They probably got him with under the "hunting without permission" statue. This has happened before to other Anglers on here who initially thought they got charged with Trespassing. Gives law enforcement the opportunity to cite without notification (of private property) Sort of a BS move to use the statue on anglers if you ask me...


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

acklac7 said:


> Presence of a house would be considered adequate notification under the law. As would a trimmed lawn, tendered field, etc. Like I said notification can take many forms. But in the end it's the landowners responsibility to provide such notification.
> 
> For whatever reason some people (*mostly strong conservative types)* have this viewpoint that all property is private and it's up to the public to do there homework and study property lines to determine what is public and what is private (seems kind of silly to me, personally). It's just not the case.


I find the emboldened part of your statement rather amusing.
You might want to change that to, "mostly hard working landowners that have sacrificed to get what they have and are sick and tired of every Tom,Dick and Harry traipsing through at will...types."


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

fastwater said:


> I find the emboldened part of your statement rather amusing.
> You might want to change that to, "mostly hard working landowners that have sacrificed to get what they have and are sick and tired of every Tom,Dick and Harry traipsing through at will...types."


He's just gonna say that if you care that much about your property than you should have it posted...its a neverending argument...some see it one way, others do not...the majority of us around here don't go where we're not supposed to be.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Shad Rap said:


> He's just gonna say that if you care that much about your property than you should have it posted...its a neverending argument...some see it one way, others do not...the majority of us around here don't go where we're not supposed to be.


I don't go where im not supposed to be, either. I follow the law. I fish on public property until the point I am notified private property has begun, then I turn back. If i'm not notified of a property change I keep right on fishing, assuming the property is still public: it's not my responsibility to know where private property begins, rather it's the landowners responsibility to notify me. I'm following the law, sorry if I wind up on your property by mistake because you failed to do so.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Shad Rap said:


> He's just gonna say that if you care that much about your property than you should have it posted...*its a neverending argument*...some see it one way, others do not...the majority of us around here don't go where we're not supposed to be.


Yes...I know.
Speaking of trespassing on land in general...not in a boat fishing, that's the reason I don't argue about it anymore with anyone caught here. Being only 20mins from town, I, along with most everyone around here have heard every excuse you could think of. I usually carry my cell phone when I'm out in the woods. Especially all hunting seasons, mushroom and ginseng seasons. If I see someone on me, I approach, snap their pic with my phone and give them their 1st...and last warning. Catch them here again, it's another pic and an automatic call to the sheriff on the spot. Since the pics are dated/timed, the slob Hunter really has no recourse.
FWIW, unfortunately, signs don't stay in trees very long around here. I do have rings painted around trees on the property lines...but that's for other purposes.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

acklac7 said:


> They probably got him with under the "hunting without permission" statue. This has happened before to other Anglers on here who initially thought they got charged with Trespassing. Gives law enforcement the opportunity to cite without notification (of private property) Sort of a BS move to use the statue on anglers if you ask me...


You would have to check with him but I believe it was trespass,, and several years ago. 

We have wandered all over the map on this thread. LOL


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

fastwater said:


> Yes...I know.
> Speaking of trespassing on land in general...not fishing, that's the reason I don't argue about it anymore with anyone caught here. Being only 20mins from town, I, along with most everyone around here have heard every excuse you could think of. I usually carry my cell phone when I'm out in the woods. Especially all hunting seasons, mushroom and ginseng seasons. If I see someone on me, I approach, snap their pic with my phone and give them their 1st...and last warning. Catch them here again, it's another pic and an automatic call to the sheriff on the spot. Since the pics are dated/timed, the slob Hunter really has no recourse.
> FWIW, unfortunately, signs don't stay in trees very long around here. I do have rings painted around trees on the property lines...but that's for other purposes.


You can't paint your "no trespass" in Ohio? That is fairly recent here in WV and most people back it up with signs but it sure saves cash and trouble. Those mylar signs don't stay attached even if they are not molested by humans.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Pooka said:


> You would have to check with him but I believe it was trespass,, and several years ago.
> 
> W*e have wandered all over the map on this thread. LOL*


I'll take a bit of the blame for that. Just wanted to emphasize the difference on trespassing laws when it comes to private land and hunting/trespassing laws.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Pooka said:


> You can't paint your "no trespass" in Ohio? That is fairly recent here in WV and most people back it up with signs but it sure saves cash and trouble. Those mylar signs don't stay attached even if they are not molested by humans.


Yea...I don't paint the circles showing the property lines for trespassing purposes. It's for other reasons.
Hopefully the 'painting' for no trespassing laws here are going to change very shortly. There's currently a Bill proposed for it as we speak.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Pooka said:


> We have wandered all over the map on this thread. LOL


I held my tongue as long as I could (i've been involved in just about every Trespassing thread on here for the past decade). Once the "Private property is Private Property!" die-hards came in I couldn't hold my tongue any longer.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

fastwater said:


> I'll take a bit of the blame for that. Just wanted to emphasize the difference on trespassing laws when it comes to private land and hunting/trespassing laws.


Yep, I am responsible for some of it too.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

acklac7 said:


> I held my tongue as long as I could (i've been involved in just about every Trespassing thread on here for the past decade). Once the "Private property is Private Property!" die-hards came in I couldn't hold my tongue any longer.


Get off my lawn! LOL

I am happy to respect private property but I also want my, our, rights respected. 
Money is trying to take those rights and unfortunately some folks support that, and other folks are just not aware of their rights. 

Yes money, Joe Bluecollar who owns a tiny bit of river bank is usually not the problem.(unless he is growing dope) Bif the real estate developer and Tad the trustfunder are usually the trouble makers.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pooka said:


> We have wandered all over the map on this thread. LOL


And probably accidently into private property that wasn't marked.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Pooka said:


> Get off my lawn! LOL
> 
> I am happy to respect private property but I also want my, our, rights respected.
> Money is trying to take those rights and unfortunately some folks support that, and other folks are just not aware of their rights.


Exactly, I'm not looking for reasons to trespass, nor trying to help people skirt the law. The fact of the matter is most people don't know their rights, and most landowners don't know their responsibilities. An angler who wanders from public property onto private property without being notified of the property change _*is not a criminal!*_ (Hunting different story) Sadly there are anglers who are charged, (and often convicted as such) everyday because they do not know their rights, it's sad.


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## matticito (Jul 17, 2012)

In Canada they spray paint red circles on trees along property lines. I'm not aware if that's some universal code or just canada. After a while someone clued me in. Most people do use signs.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

matticito said:


> In Canada they spray paint red circles on trees along property lines. I'm not aware if that's some universal code or just canada. After a while someone clued me in. Most people do use signs.


This is WV,, 
(B) Boundaries marked with a clearly visible purple painted marking, consisting of one vertical line no less than eight inches in length and two inches in width, and the bottom of the mark not less than three nor more than six feet from the ground or normal water surface. Such marks shall be affixed to immovable, permanent objects that are no more than one hundred feet apart and readily visible to any person approaching the property. Signs shall also be posted at all roads, driveways or gates of entry onto the posted land so as to be clearly noticeable from outside the boundary line.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Pooka said:


> This is WV,,
> (B) Boundaries marked with a clearly visible purple painted marking, consisting of one vertical line no less than eight inches in length and two inches in width, and the bottom of the mark not less than three nor more than six feet from the ground or normal water surface. Such marks shall be affixed to immovable, permanent objects that are no more than one hundred feet apart and readily visible to any person approaching the property. Signs shall also be posted at all roads, driveways or gates of entry onto the posted land so as to be clearly noticeable from outside the boundary line.


This is the same Bill (House Bill 76) that's currently being proposed in Ohio.
As I stated before, regular signage just doesn't stay put around here. 
Painting just makes much more sense


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

acklac7 said:


> This is 100% false. Read the law, it's pretty cut and dry. It is the landowners responsibility to provide notification the land is private. Only exception is if you are hunting, then you are correct. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.21
> 
> 
> *2911.21 Criminal trespass.*
> ...


What season do you think it is right now?100% false?..... sure.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

fastwater said:


> This is the same Bill (House Bill 76) that's currently being proposed in Ohio.
> As I stated before, regular signage just doesn't stay put around here.
> Painting just makes much more sense


It sounds like you have your property marked for CAUV. I have my property marked per CAUV guide lines. I think the law should enforce CAUV markings as proper boundary notification. It’s pretty clean cut and dry on CAUV boundary markings.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Muddy said:


> It sounds like you have your property marked for CAUV. I have my property marked per CAUV guide lines. I think the law should enforce CAUV markings as proper boundary notification. It’s pretty clean cut and dry on CAUV boundary markings.


Correct...and I agree!
If the new law goes thru, may just have to change color of the paint I use since I'm marking anyway.


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## miked913 (Feb 29, 2008)

Sounds great, accept I have 1089 acres in some of the thickest most rugged county SE Ohio has to offer, do you have any idea what an undertaking marking every tree at less than 100' would be? 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

miked913 said:


> Sounds great, accept I have 1089 acres in some of the thickest most rugged county SE Ohio has to offer, do you have any idea what an undertaking marking every tree at less than 100' would be?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


It's no wonder your trophy wall looks like it does. Congrats to you! 
Just a thought...If you are in a program such as the CAUV program the tax savings you would get on 1089 acres every year for marking the lines(as required)with good paint/ribbons every 4yrs or so would surely be worth your efforts and pay for your...or someone else's time.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

miked913 said:


> Sounds great, accept I have 1089 acres in some of the thickest most rugged county SE Ohio has to offer, do you have any idea what an undertaking marking every tree at less than 100' would be?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk



A lot less trouble than hanging signs every 100 ft. 

Just for grins and giggles, since you have that much, how well do you know your boundaries? 
I used to work on a survey crew and some folks had just the faintest idea, and then again some old farmers could walk you around and not miss the line but by a few inches. 

That always amazed me, some grizzled old man tottering around in the woods, might not remember what he had for breakfast, darn near spot on where his lines are from the last, maybe only, survey done 120+ years ago.


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## miked913 (Feb 29, 2008)

Pooka said:


> A lot less trouble than hanging signs every 100 ft.
> 
> Just for grins and giggles, since you have that much, how well do you know your boundaries?
> I used to work on a survey crew and some folks had just the faintest idea, and then again some old farmers could walk you around and not miss the line but by a few inches.
> ...


We try to repost a section every early spring before green up when under growth is the least. Most of the boundaries still have 3 strand, much is laying on the ground now but you can still pick it up, between the fence and the 100' tall giant fence row trees.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

miked913 said:


> Sounds great, accept I have 1089 acres in some of the thickest most rugged county SE Ohio has to offer, do you have any idea what an undertaking marking every tree at less than 100' would be?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Do you own and pay taxes on the 1089 acres?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Pooka said:


> A lot less trouble than hanging signs every 100 ft.
> 
> Just for grins and giggles, since you have that much, how well do you know your boundaries?
> I used to work on a survey crew and some folks had just the faintest idea, and then again some old farmers could walk you around and not miss the line but by a few inches.
> ...


That's one of my neighbors( and very close friend) right there.
He's in his early 80's but knows his property lines of his 200+acre farm as good as he knows the directions to his bathroom.

Another neighbor farmer(in his early 70's) has a tad over 300acres and some property not adjoining. His crop fields are mostly surrounded by woods. He can walk every bit of his property lines as well.

I guess when you've had a lifetime of working hard everyday maintaining a large portion of property, the lines just become second hand knowledge. Most that have never owned property, don't appreciate the amount of constant work it takes to maintain it. Nor do they understand the amount of issues with trespasser cutting fences, climbing fences mashing them down, cutting electric fencing for livestock...or just trashing up the property in general. Nothing like getting a call from your neighbor at 3am letting you know your cattle are loose and in his yard eating the wife's flowers. Only to find out that someone has cut your fence to drag a deer out.  I've been blessed with several nice tree stands over the years from the two above property's when these guys call me asking me if I want them before they hooked their tractors to them and yanked them down.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

fastwater said:


> That's one of my neighbors( and very close friend) right there.
> He's in his early 80's but knows his property lines of his 200+acre farm as good as he knows the directions to his bathroom.
> 
> Another neighbor farmer(in his early 70's) has a tad over 300acres and some property not adjoining. His crop fields are mostly surrounded by woods. He can walk every bit of his property lines as well.
> ...


I got my all time favorite ladder stand this way. I like to look at the glass as half full. Rather than getting all worked up about a trespasser hanging a stand on private property I just look at it as “Hey-free tree stand!”.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

It's a shame you have to watch over your property like a mother hen these days. Can't imagine the problems absentee owners must face.


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## miked913 (Feb 29, 2008)

Snakecharmer said:


> It's a shame you have to watch over your property like a mother hen these days. Can't imagine the problems absentee owners must face.


I had a perfect deer cam pic of a trespasser and in this case I even recognized who it was. He happened to be the father in law of the girl who runs the local store. So I wanted to let them know that I knew and I printed out his pic along with a couple of my friends who were checking cameras with me and took them in the store. I told her I had a few trespassers and got pics and wonder if she'd look at them and see if she recognized any of them. She looked at them and I got a "Nope never seen any of them" from her. I haven't seen any signs of him being back since.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

miked913 said:


> I had a perfect deer cam pic of a trespasser and in this case I even recognized who it was. He happened to be the father in law of the girl who runs the local store. So I wanted to let them know that I knew and I printed out his pic along with a couple of my friends who were checking cameras with me and took them in the store. I told her I had a few trespassers and got pics and wonder if she'd look at them and see if she recognized any of them. She looked at them and I got a "Nope never seen any of them" from her. I haven't seen any signs of him being back since.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


That's great!


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## PromiseKeeper (Apr 14, 2004)

Snakecharmer said:


> It's a shame you have to watch over your property like a mother hen these days. Can't imagine the problems absentee owners must face.


This is exactly one of the biggest reasons deer hunting became less and less fun over the years. I had several farms I hunted that were either owned by family or close friends bordering their farms. As they aged, I found myself in the position of dealing with trespassers more often every time I stepped into the woods. I've been cussed and threatened multiple times when I simply told them to leave (at the landowners direction.) As surrounding farms got parceled off, they were bought up in 5 acre tracts and the new owners assumed they could hunt on 500. All those farms are gone now and I cant say I miss it much. One friend would reserve gun season for cutting firewood. He would run his chain saw in the woods all day so he didn't have to deal with trespassers. He loved to hunt and taught me a lot as a young man. Too bad it had to end that way.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Snakecharmer said:


> It's a shame you have to watch over your property like a mother hen these days. Can't imagine the problems absentee owners must face.


Hasn't been all that long ago, 70's early 80s, when the landowners/farmers around here didn't care. Close the gates, don't leave trash and everyone was happy. The farmers were happy to have the deer culled and no one cared about squirrels and such. Everyone hunted everywhere. --Fishing too.

I met the owners of 2 of my fav spots while I was "trespassing". Walking out of the woods,, "Hey is this your land? I have been hunting up here, hope you don't mind." --"Don't mind a bit just close the gates."

Those days are gone.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

^^^Yep...that's for sure.


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

Snakecharmer said:


> Do you have "No Trespassing" signs around your house or can I come and sit on your lawn and have a picnic and shoot a couple turkeys during hunting season?





fastwater said:


> I hope you don't have the same mindset as far as it being the landowners responsibilty to make sure you know where your at rather than you being responsible for knowing where you are at when it comes to hunting private property.
> It may get a bit expensive for you...at least here in Fairfield and Hocking Co.
> And this area could use all the donations they can get
> 
> ...


A house would clearly be a sign of private property and you would "knowingly" be trespassing. 

I don't hunt so this isn't really a concern of mine.

Just to be clear, I don't go out fishing looking to trespass on land. When I wade, I stick to the creek bed. I don't walk out through the woods or anything, I walk out the way I came, through the creek. I access the creeks I fish from public areas, such as bridge crossings or pull offs along the road next to the creek. I never leave trash behind and always take a bag with me and pick up any trash that I may come across. If property is posted along the creek, that is where my wading ends. I do have written consent from 2 property owners that have signs posted. Both is to access their land for the purpose of fishing the creek, but not hunting. They both said they don't give hunting access and since I don't hunt, it didn't matter to me.

I can totally understand why people would not want others on their land. I have seen many times where people have left beer cans, worm containers, and all manners of other trash on private property. Sadly, these people cause most property owners to not give consent to anyone.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> A house would clearly be a sign of private property and you would "knowingly" be trespassing.
> 
> I don't hunt so this isn't really a concern of mine.
> 
> ...


I commend you for the care and respect you exhibit of others property when you're on it. Surely, if it weren't for those that didn't show that kind of respect, it would be much easier today to gain access for both fishing and hunting on private property. Sadly, for way to long, the few slob fishermen/hunters ruin it for everyone.


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## hgbjr (May 15, 2008)

Property like that has to be posted He's counting on you not knowing that and paying the ticket.Go to court and plead not guilty explain about the missing signs that the officer himself admitted to and the charge will be dismissed, then ask the judge why the officer charged you in the first place knowing that without the signs this would be the outcome rather than give you a warning ? Let him answer That. Retired law enforcement here. jb PS hate guys like that- made it tough on all the good officers


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

fastwater said:


> I commend you for the care and respect you exhibit of others property when you're on it. Surely, if it weren't for those that didn't show that kind of respect, it would be much easier today to gain access for both fishing and hunting on private property. Sadly, for way to long, the few slob fishermen/hunters ruin it for everyone.


Apart from you should not be leaving trash anyway just on general principles,,, 
What confounds me is why anyone would want to mark their spot for others. I hate to leave even boot prints. Even at well used public spots I have favorite niches that I don't want to advertise. 

And yes I have found good spots from seeing trash on the bank as I boated by. If someone wants to put out a neon sign, I am happy to take advantage.


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Pooka said:


> Apart from you should not be leaving trash anyway just on general principles,,,
> What confounds me is why anyone would want to mark their spot for others. I hate to leave even boot prints. Even at well used public spots I have favorite niches that I don't want to advertise.
> 
> And yes I have found good spots from seeing trash on the bank as I boated by. If someone wants to put out a neon sign, I am happy to take advantage.


Lol sooooo true!


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Pooka said:


> Apart from you should not be leaving trash anyway just on general principles,,,
> What confounds me is why anyone would want to mark their spot for others. I hate to leave even boot prints. Even at well used public spots I have favorite niches that I don't want to advertise.
> 
> And yes I have found good spots from seeing trash on the bank as I boated by. If someone wants to put out a neon sign, I am happy to take advantage.


Plain and simple...no respect. These are the same self centered slobs that throw trash out the windows of their cars,trash up their neighborhoods, leave their trash on the tables when they eat at a fast food restaurant...the list goes on and on. They just have no respect for anything or anybody that doesn't immediately affect them in a bad way.
I'll give you an example.
When I moved in this house, the prior owners were elderly. They could no longer take care of the property. Nor had they been able to even get back in the woods for 3-4 yrs prior to moving. The underbrush had grown up around the perimeter of the yard and talking to these people, you could tell it broke their hearts that they had not been able to keep things maintained. That's the reason they sold out. They were two of the nicest people you ever met,had lived here since the mid 60's,knew all the neighbor's even watching their kids grow up.
When we first looked at this place, I walked the property by myself.
I got to the back of the property and came to a ravine that bordered a neighbor's property(neighbor's that I came to find out wwere the area thugs and dope dealers...lucky me). The bottom of that ravine was completely full of trash. Everything you could imagine. All kinds of appliances, TV's lawn mowers, plastic bags of trash, piles of broken bottles/glass and literally truck loads of tires. Some trash you could tell hadn't been there very long.
So I take my phone out a snap some pics.
When I get back to the house, I asked the man here when the last time he had been back into the woods. He said he hadn't been back there in several years and asked me why. I told him I was just wondering...I didn't want him being upset because there was no doubt in my mind that neither of them knew this dump pile was back there.
We moved in and I started hauling. If I didn't haul 20-25 pickup truck loads of just tires out of that ravine...I didn't haul one. When I got to some of the trash bags, I opened them up looking for names/ addresses. And just like I figured, it came from the adjoining neighbor's. So my first full load of trash, I drive around to this neighbor's house knock on his door. Introduced myself as his new neighbor and told him I had something I wanted him to look at. We walked to the truck and I showed him the trash with his name/address on it, told him where it came from and informed him that his personal dump was officially closed.
Of course, he said he didn't know how it got there and acted insulted that I would suggest they threw it where it was.
Bottom line was, this scum knew the people that lived here couldn't get back there so they just started dumping their trash. Again, someone not having any respect and taking advantage where they could. Incidentally, this is the same crew that poach's, will trespass at will and are first name basis with both ODNR and Sheriff...go figure!


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

Used to do a bit of Elk hunting in my younger day around Buford CO. and the White River is right there. It's about the size of the Chagrin for the most part but absolutely loaded with trout.That river is very navigable but I DARE you.. to even try to float it, I double dog dare you. No signs..not one, and I guarantee your going to learn all about trespassing.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

fastwater said:


> Plain and simple...no respect. These are the same self centered slobs that throw trash out the windows of their cars,trash up their neighborhoods, leave their trash on the tables when they eat at a fast food restaurant...the list goes on and on. They just have no respect for anything or anybody that doesn't immediately affect them in a bad way.
> I'll give you an example.
> When I moved in this house, the prior owners were elderly. They could no longer take care of the property. Nor had they been able to even get back in the woods for 3-4 yrs prior to moving. The underbrush had grown up around the perimeter of the yard and talking to these people, you could tell it broke their hearts that they had not been able to keep things maintained. That's the reason they sold out. They were two of the nicest people you ever met,had lived here since the mid 60's,knew all the neighbor's even watching their kids grow up.
> When we first looked at this place, I walked the property by myself.
> ...



Something tells me you might enjoy this video.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Popspastime said:


> Used to do a bit of Elk hunting in my younger day around Buford CO. and the White River is right there. It's about the size of the Chagrin for the most part but absolutely loaded with trout.That river is very navigable but I DARE you.. to even try to float it, I double dog dare you. No signs..not one, and I guarantee your going to learn all about trespassing.


There is a fellow in KY who is now doing life on account of he thought he could shoot someone accessing the public ROW on his land. 

If i am not mistaken, there is an ongoing court case in CO over streambed access.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Well I’m going to try being as calm as possible and announce that this a$$hole must of decided to just now turn it in because i just now got the ticket in the mail today. I am beyond furious. For some reason in the back of my head i feel like he seen this post and decided to be a D and turn it in 39 days after the incident. 12/14 is my court date. I’m livid.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Scum_Frog said:


> Well I’m going to try being as calm as possible and announce that this a$$hole must of decided to just now turn it in because i just now got the ticket in the mail today. I am beyond furious. For some reason in the back of my head i feel like he seen this post and decided to be a D and turn it in 39 days after the incident. 12/14 is my court date. I’m livid.


Load for bear and beat him silly in court. 

Who is his boss? Perhaps he might like to know about his subordinate.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Pooka said:


> Something tells me you might enjoy this video.


My heroes for sure!



Scum_Frog said:


> Well I’m going to try being as calm as possible and announce that this a$$hole must of decided to just now turn it in because i just now got the ticket in the mail today. I am beyond furious. For some reason in the back of my head i feel like he seen this post and decided to be a D and turn it in 39 days after the incident. 12/14 is my court date. I’m livid.


Well...that sucks for sure.
Far as the filing goes, I would be more inclined to believe he just waited until he had several tickets to file and went down and filed all of them at the same time.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Pooka said:


> Load for bear and beat him silly in court.
> 
> Who is his boss? Perhaps he might like to know about his subordinate.


My first thought was to DOX him but that might be illegal. LOL 
Probably not illegal to DOX his office though. 
You might also consider contacting your government reps and see if they can be of any help.

Might be fun to FOIA his records (and any records pertaining to this ticket) and see if he was working, or hunting that day.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Scum_Frog said:


> Well I’m going to try being as calm as possible and announce that this a$$hole must of decided to just now turn it in because i just now got the ticket in the mail today. I am beyond furious. For some reason in the back of my head i feel like he seen this post and decided to be a D and turn it in 39 days after the incident. 12/14 is my court date. I’m livid.


Too bad you cant have a jury of your peers...........NOT GUILTY........


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

Scum_Frog said:


> Well I’m going to try being as calm as possible and announce that this a$$hole must of decided to just now turn it in because i just now got the ticket in the mail today. I am beyond furious. For some reason in the back of my head i feel like he seen this post and decided to be a D and turn it in 39 days after the incident. 12/14 is my court date. I’m livid.


That is absolutely ridiculous. Why did it take so long for him to turn it in? Could he have turned it in 6 months from now? A year?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

BuckeyeFishinNut said:


> That is absolutely ridiculous. Why did it take so long for him to turn it in? *Could he have turned it in 6 months from now?* A year?


Right or wrong...the answer to your question is...Yes, he could have waited that long.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

That sucks Jarrett. I’d probably just pay the darn thing. If it’s like the time I was going to fight a ticket it’s a scam. First hearing is just to plead guilty/ not guilty. Then you have to go back to plead your case. Hells bells, for a working man that’s 2 days off of work. Lose more in wages. Big time cash grab they have going.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving though!


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

First things first: What is the charge? Is it criminal trespass or hunting without permission? Either way you don’t want one of those charges on your record.

I would 100% challenge it. You have a very strong case. I’ve challenged all my traffic cases over the years, 75% of the time the issuing officer doesn’t show up and the charges get dropped. The other times the prosecutor has reduced the charge right off the bat. No Lawyer needed.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

bobk said:


> That sucks Jarrett. I’d probably just pay the darn thing. If it’s like the time I was going to fight a ticket it’s a scam. First hearing is just to plead guilty/ not guilty. Then you have to go back to plead your case. Hells bells, for a working man that’s 2 days off of work. Lose more in wages. Big time cash grab they have going.
> Have a Happy Thanksgiving though!


I don't mean to pick on you but that is why we still have to deal with things like this.

As long as there is easy cash to be had there will be people taking advantage of that and when you allow someone to get away with it you are just setting up the next guy for a "robbery".


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Pooka said:


> I don't mean to pick on you but that is why we still have to deal with things like this.
> 
> As long as there is easy cash to be had there will be people taking advantage of that and when you allow someone to get away with it you are just setting up the next guy for a "robbery".


I’m not setting up anyone for robbery with my decision. It’s my choice in what to do with the ticket. If I’m going to lose lots of money by missing work to fight the ticket I’ll cut my losses and move forward. I never said that the games they play with tickets is a good thing. I think I called it a cash grab. 
You want to be a crusader for the legal system by all means go for it. It’s not my job to protect the next guy by going to court and missing 2 days of pay. I’ll do it with my vote!


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

bobk said:


> First hearing is just to plead guilty/ not guilty. Then you have to go back to plead your case. Hells bells, for a working man that’s 2 days off of work. Lose more in wages.


Every time i've taken something to court i've been out by noon (at the latest). Preliminary hearings (where you enter your plea) are usually the worse, they can run till 11/11:30. Trick is to get there late (never show up @ 9:00 when they tell you). Show up at like 10:55; 90% of the court room will be cleared out and you can walk right up and make your plea within minutes.

In my experience trial court is over fast, usually within an hour or so (then again i've never had anything get to trial). Usually you show up at 9:00 (now this one you want to be on time for) and check in with the prosecutor. From there they give cops a half hour to show up, if they don't show up the prosecutor immediately drops your case, and off you go. If they do show up the Prosecutor will usually pull you off to the side, go over the details of the case, and give you an opportunity to state your defense. Then they will usually drop the charges or cut you a plea. Very rarely do things go to trial, especially if you have a strong defense.

Edit: Just saw where you'll have to drive to Toledo, so maybe you'll have to take a day off work for each appearance, sucks.

I would print out a copy of the Criminal Trespass statue (*if that's in fact what you were charged with*) (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.21) and tell the Prosecutor you weren't notified the property was private. Then point-blank ask him/her if "notification" is required to be charged with Trespassing. The answer is yes (despite what many on here may think). No notification = No charges.

They might try and plea-bargain you, but I would strongly suggest you hold out for a dismissal (if they don't offer one right off the bat).

Worse comes to worse, and you don't feel comfortable going to trial, you can always ask for a continuance and hire an attorney, although in this case I really can't imagine one is necessary. All you should need is a copy of the trespass statue, I mean it's pretty cut and dry.


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## snag (Dec 27, 2005)

Man that sounds like someone who goes to court quite often, knowing all the ins and outs. Crap miss work maybe twice$$ drive back and forth to court$$ get a attorney if needed more $$$ .. plea no contest and move on. Just my two miserable cents..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

bobk said:


> I’m not setting up anyone for robbery with my decision. It’s my choice in what to do with the ticket. If I’m going to lose lots of money by missing work to fight the ticket I’ll cut my losses and move forward. I never said that the games they play with tickets is a good thing. I think I called it a cash grab.
> You want to be a crusader for the legal system by all means go for it. It’s not my job to protect the next guy by going to court and missing 2 days of pay. I’ll do it with my vote!


I never said that you claimed that the games they play with tickets is a good thing and yes you did indeed mention that you think it is not right.

You are certainly welcome to do as you wish but ,, If not you to stand up for what is right, then who should? Who will? 

Again, I am not trying to pick on you. I am just taking the opportunity to prod people to think about their choices and how those choices might effect others. 


I advise that you always record your interactions with law enforcement. Video does not lie, sometimes LEOs do.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

snag said:


> Man that sounds like someone who goes to court quite often, knowing all the ins and outs. Crap miss work maybe twice$$ drive back and forth to court$$ get a attorney if needed more $$$ .. plea no contest and move on. Just my two miserable cents..


Ha, I take everything to court (all traffic btw). Started out with being just plain curious about the process, along with exercising my constitutional rights. The more and more I learned about the process (and just how easy it can be without a lawyer) the more and more I took every ticket to court. I fully admit, i'm almost always in the wrong, but still it's fun to exercise your rights and face your accuser. Plus that feeling of winning one (by yourself) against the man is pretty awesome...

In regards to taking pleading no-contest. Man, bad advice, especially on an M4 Criminal Trespass charge. That's going to come up on a background check, and it's going to be used to judge you. Me personally? I like to keep my background check as spotless as possible at all costs. I have one Wreckless operation charge on there (M4) which I can't get off, and man it alienates me to no end (even though employer's don't seem to care).


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## snag (Dec 27, 2005)

Maybe if you went by the traffic laws you wouldn’t be in court so much, I haven’t had a ticket in over twenty plus years, that was a rolling stop sign in grand river. Seems to me that’s the problem, you like to fight the system and for what? Well I’m done with this thread ,read a lot before posting and it’s a going nowhere thread with some armchair lawyers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

acklac7 said:


> Ha, I take everything to court (all traffic btw). Started out with being just plain curious about the process, along with exercising my constitutional rights. The more and more I learned about the process (and just how easy it can be without a lawyer) the more and more I took every ticket to court. I fully admit, i'm almost always in the wrong, but still it's fun to exercise your rights and face your accuser. Plus that feeling of winning one (by yourself) against the man is pretty awesome...
> 
> In regards to taking pleading no-contest. Man, bad advice, especially on an M4 Criminal Trespass charge. That's going to come up on a background check, and it's going to be used to judge you. Me personally? I like to keep my background check as spotless as possible at all costs. I have one Wreckless operation charge on there (M4) which I can't get off, and man it alienates me to no end (even though employer's don't seem to care).


The only charge I plead no contest to was a PI. I was drunk as a monkey but in my defense I was behaving myself and it was at the town's Octoberfest. 

That one cost me a job when I had forgotten about it (ten years old) and not disclosed it on a job application. A week after I was hired they actually checked and sent me packing. LOL


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Scum_Frog said:


> Well I’m going to try being as calm as possible and announce that this a$$hole must of decided to just now turn it in because i just now got the ticket in the mail today. I am beyond furious. For some reason in the back of my head i feel like he seen this post and decided to be a D and turn it in 39 days after the incident. 12/14 is my court date. I’m livid.


Don't let that douchebag win. You did NOT tresspass. You were not on LAND. Federal laws on navigable water are very clear. No way in the world that charge stands up in court. As AJ says, I bet the minute you walk in on your pre-trial hearing the prosecutor will talk to you about a dismissal. The prosecutor will know the law that the dumbass new dipwad out the marsh didn't. 

Fight it. You will win.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Luckily the court date is on a friday which is my day off so im okay there. Its only a 30-40 minute drive as well so im alright with that. I am definitely going to the hearing and pleading my case. My partner in the tourney is going with me as well thankfully and since he didnt get anything even though he was in the boat with me. We shall see I will keep you guys updated on what happens. I would just pay the ticket and move on if the situation was treated more professionally but it wasnt and I cooperated with the entire thing and gave him my information trying to help and be the good guy and he still acted the way he did. So now I'll waste my time going to court and hopefully not having to pay a few hundred out of my pocket for his ignorance on not posting signs and setting up his duck blinds.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Just keep in mind the only thing you’ll do at the first court date is enter a plea (typically) (you might want to call ahead and ask) No reason to bring your tourney partner. All you’ll do is plea guilty or not guilty then be given a trial date.


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## 1morecast (Jun 13, 2007)

go to court and plea your case, you do not want a trespassing violation on your record...im guessing the navigable water rights will help you win this case...you can float through all sorts of posted land on rivers with a canoe I'm guessing it's not different with a boat off the main lake. Good luck.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Scum_Frog said:


> Luckily the court date is on a friday which is my day off so im okay there. Its only a 30-40 minute drive as well so im alright with that. I am definitely going to the hearing and pleading my case. My partner in the tourney is going with me as well thankfully and since he didnt get anything even though he was in the boat with me. We shall see I will keep you guys updated on what happens. I would just pay the ticket and move on if the situation was treated more professionally but it wasnt and I cooperated with the entire thing and gave him my information trying to help and be the good guy and he still acted the way he did. So now I'll waste my time going to court and hopefully not having to pay a few hundred out of my pocket for his ignorance on not posting signs and setting up his duck blinds.


Organize your case and prepare like you are going into battle. Expect to win, keep that mindset. Be polite not hostile, be ready with pointed questions, anticipate the case against you. --In this case it seems is not much more than the testimony of the GW.-- and be ready to counter.

"I cooperated with the entire thing and gave him my information trying to help and be the good guy" --Make that point, you respectfully cooperated and are sorely confused as to why it went this far given the evidence. -- No signs, agreement from the GW on that point, your squeaky clean record, yada yada. 

Best of luck!


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## firemanmike2127 (Mar 17, 2013)

I've been watching this thread has go all over the map since you were given the citation. I sure hope you're successful in getting the charges dropped w/ a minimal amount of time invested in the courtroom. I'd consider asking someone with a legal background for some advice while you're preparing to plead this case. Have plenty of ammunition ready. Pics, corroborating testimony, legal advice, etc...& GOOD LUCK !!! Mike


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

Good Luck Scum. It's hell fighting city hall. If you you want a bit of satisfaction either way it turns out, I have been known to wright a Letter To The Editor. The Toledo Blade has a good staff.


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## mkalink (Mar 28, 2010)

Plead not guilty, then you better lawyer up. The money you spend on an attorney will be much less than what a criminal trespass costs you in the long run. Remember this when you represent yourself in court, you have a fool for a client. The courts are not about the truth or right and wrong. It’s all about the system. Better to hire someone trained to work within the system. I guarantee the officer will show for the hearing. (They get paid to show) and he will lie to no end to help get a conviction. If you don’t have pics and videos from that day you have nothing but your word. Even with your fishing buddy as a witness doesnt matter. It will be your word verses the officers, You lose. Usually an attorney will resolve this with a couple telephone calls charge you a couple hundred dollars and charges will be reduced and you pay a small fine.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

I was wronged at Kroger once by a manager... Everyone told me to move on. I wrote a letter to the corporate ombudsman..giving all info. The manager was not fired but was moved to another store a long way from his home. Still have the mark on my record, a Gal still has been stepped down, but, I am pretty sure he will go no further with his career at Kroger. My wife wrote a letter to the Kroger CEO in Cincy once.. We had piss poor equipment and someone was going to get hurt. Numerous requests had been made for new equipment. Wasnt a week after my wife sent the email to the CEO, a corporate lawyer, many suits, and division president was in the store looking at the equipment. Day later new equipment. (power jack) Heres the funny part... following week TWO more power jacks..for total of 3. Following week, we had none. I aint kidding.. if you thought working for government was bad. Next day one showed back up.. Point is.... pen can be mightier then the sword. You can make a difference. Not sure I would wait for your court date. Start now. Who knows maybe leak it to the media..


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## hgbjr (May 15, 2008)

I am writing you this addendum to my original post, you want to plea no contest, which means your admitting to the facts, you were there on the day and time, at the prescribed location but with an explanation. At this point the Judge should let you enter your evidence of the missing signage, your phone contact with the odnr and any other evidence you have. If you plead not guilty, it will be set for trial, and you will have to return at a later date. JB Good luck, based on what you have related I think it should be dismissed/not guilty


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Always plea not guilty if you were not in the wrong. In this case, you weren't even close to trespassing. No contest means that you accept the charge against you though you may not agree with some aspect of it. You don't get an opportunity to fight it. It's basically an admission of guilt which is exactly how the court treats it. Anytime you want to fight a charge levied against you, you always plead not guilty. Also, you have a very strong case so definitely plead not guilty.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Well today was the day......went to court. Did a little back and fourth talking with the judge prior to my plea and since it was federal court he stated I was supposed to only be able to plea guilty or not guilty but decided he would let me say no contest and plea my case since I told him I wanted to plea not guilty but did not have the time to come back for another court date. Judge was extremely nice. Let me plea my case and he asked the officer a few things as well which I think benefited me as well. After about a 25 minute conversation the judge came up with his decision and decided to drop the charges to a $30 fine with no court cost....he asked the officer if he put up signs yet up at the entrance and he didnt answer.....he then got louder and said "MR BAURER DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PUT THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS AT THE ENTRANCE LIKE THERES SUPPOSED TO BE OR NOT" and he was like ugghh ughhh ya we did they are up. He could tell he was lying which is why I think he dropped the chargers to only $30. Im grateful. Took time out of my day to handle but im happy I was right. I know for sure I will be staying out of that place and also staying away from that officer if I ever see him.

Thanks guys for all the advice as well I appreciate it immensely!


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Scum_Frog said:


> Well today was the day......went to court. Did a little back and fourth talking with the judge prior to my plead and since it was federal court he stated I was supposed to only be able to plea guilty or not guilt but decided he would let me say no contest and plea my case since I told him I wanted to plea not guilty but did not have the time to come back for another court date. Judge was extremely nice. Let me plea my case and he asked the officer a few things as well which I think benefited me as well. After about a 25 minute conversation the judge came up with his decision and decided to drop the charges to a $30 fine with no court cost....he asked the officer if he put up signs yet up at the entrance and he didnt answer.....he then got louder and said "MR BAURER DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PUT THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS AT THE ENTRANCE LIKE THERES SUPPOSED TO BE OR NOT" and he was like ugghh ughhh ya we did they are up. He could tell he was lying which is why I think he dropped the chargers to only $30. Im grateful. Took time out of my day to handle but im happy I was right. I know for sure I will be staying out of that place and also staying away from that officer if I ever see him.
> 
> Thanks guys for all the advice as well I appreciate it immensely!


That's great Scum_frog…

It would be funny if you could take a datestamped video of the entrance and see that it was not posted....Maybe a contempt of court for the officer! Lying to a judge is a no no…

I wonder if the officer would be interested in a "Playboy' subscription mailed to his office? Naw probably can't read.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Congratulations!


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

Nice job and thanks for posting the outcome!


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Snakecharmer said:


> That's great Scum_frog…
> 
> It would be funny if you could take a datestamped video of the entrance and see that it was not posted....Maybe a contempt of court for the officer! Lying to a judge is a no no…
> 
> I wonder if the officer would be interested in a "Playboy' subscription mailed to his office? Naw probably can't read.


I was thinking the same thing regarding lying to a judge. That takes big ones.


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Awesome, good for you!


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

Snakecharmer said:


> Better blaming you than blaming the neighbor for being pregnant....


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Great news! 
But $30 was $30 too much. The case should have been dismissed.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

bobk said:


> I was thinking the same thing regarding lying to a judge. That takes big ones.


LEO's (as a group) do it often. And why not?,, the chances of being called on it are small and the consequences if they get busted are usually non-existent or so small as to be only an annoyance.
That is why it is wise to always video your interactions with law enforcement.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Yeah, should've been nothing, but $30 is about what your opportunity cost would have been to have to come back at another time to fight it to nothing. All a wash at that point. Glad it went mostly your way. 

Also, I'm thinking they need to come up with a different charge for that scenario. Navigable water is navigable water. Maybe, accessing federally protected zone or something of that nature. It sure aint trespassing!!


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Congrats! Although not real happy that you ended up pleading to something you could have easily got dismissed. But hey, at least the Officer got reamed by the Judge. That should make him think twice about pulling a stunt like this again.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Congratulations SF!
Like everybody else...wish it was dismissed.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

fastwater said:


> Congratulations SF!
> Like everybody else...wish it was dismissed.


Had it gone to trial it most likely would have.

Pretty surprising the Judge even heard arguments in preliminary hearings. Usually it’s guilty or not guilty, and thats it.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

I was thinking the same thing Ack! When he said he would listen to my side I was in shock but grateful he would do so. I think it obviously benefited me! I know if I took it to court I would probably of been able to completely get out of it but its a 57 minute drive just to get there and then missing time from work or away from my kids wasnt worth it. Thanks again guys!


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

End result.. your still guilty.. just costed less.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Popspastime said:


> End result.. your still guilty.. just costed less.



And that is something to consider should another situation arise. There will no longer be a benefit of the doubt.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

I would never fault anyone for doing what they think is best for them.

However, it is a fair bet that this nutty LEO has done similar before and the previous victims just paid the fine. --and that may have lead directly to this thread.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

I can completely understand Scumfrog's position. Some people just don't have the time for a second court date, especially if they have to drive any sort of distance. 

It's really unfortunate our Justice system requires you to show up at preliminary hearings just to say "Guilty" or "Not guilty". You'd think they could just have you enter a plea online in this day and age...


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

acklac7 said:


> I can completely understand Scumfrog's position. Some people just don't have the time for a second court date, especially if they have to drive any sort of distance.
> 
> It's really unfortunate our Justice system requires you to show up at preliminary hearings just to say "Guilty" or "Not guilty". You'd think they could just have you enter a plea online in this day and age...



Good point. Many places have no problem with video appearances by prisoners, so why not for folks who have not been arrested? 
I am sure that we are bright enough to make that work.

And it is past time to allow video and audio recording in all courtrooms. Sunshine is the best disinfectant as they say.


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## Hookedup330 (Jul 13, 2011)

That is another issue that is wrong with our court system. You have to take the time off of work spend the money for travel to prove your innocence. Once you prove your innocent that means you had not broke the law. But in doing so the LEO gets paid to be at court even though he didn't do his/her job correctly. They are not held responsible for writing bad tickets just another day on there pay check.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Hookedup330 said:


> That is another issue that is wrong with our court system. You have to take the time off of work spend the money for travel to prove your innocence. Once you prove your innocent that means you had not broke the law. But in doing so the LEO gets paid to be at court even though he didn't do his/her job correctly. They are not held responsible for writing bad tickets just another day on there pay check.



Another good point, there are seldom financial consequences for bad LEO/DA or equivalent behavior. You could be hauled in on any bogus charge and not be reimbursed for the time and cash you are out.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

I'd have shown the judge this:

"Navigable waters of the United States are those waters that are subject to the ebb and flow of the tide and/or are presently used, or have been used in the past, or may be susceptible for use to transport interstate or foreign commerce. A determination of navigability, once made, applies laterally over the entire surface of the waterbody, and is not extinguished by later actions or events which impede or destroy navigable capacity."

Pretty sure Lake Erie fits that definition. No way and no how were you guilty of tresspassing if you were on a boat and floating on a section of Lake Erie or even water connected to it where you did not require a portage.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

"..§ 329.11 Geographic and jurisdictional limits of rivers and lakes. (a) Jurisdiction over entire bed. Federal regulatory jurisdiction, and powers of improvement for navigation, extend laterally to the entire water surface and bed of a navigable waterbody, which includes all the land and waters below the ordinary high water mark. 
Jurisdiction thus extends to the edge (as determined above) of all such waterbodies, even though portions of the waterbody may be extremely shallow, or obstructed by shoals, vegetation or other barriers. Marshlands and similar areas are thus considered navigable in law, but only so far as the area is subject to inundation by the ordinary high waters. 

(1) The ‘‘ordinary high water mark’’ on non-tidal rivers is the line on the shore established by the fluctuations of water and indicated by physical characteristics such as a clear, natural line impressed on the bank; shelving; changes in the character of soil; destruction of terrestrial vegetation; the presence of litter and debris; or other appropriate means that consider the characteristics of the surrounding areas. 
(2) Ownership of a river or lake bed or of the lands between high and low water marks will vary according to state law; however, private ownership of the underlying lands has no bearing on the existence or extent of the dominant Federal jurisdiction over a navigable waterbody. ...."


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## spikeg79 (Jun 11, 2012)

Scum_Frog said:


> Well today was the day......went to court. Did a little back and fourth talking with the judge prior to my plea and since it was federal court he stated I was supposed to only be able to plea guilty or not guilty but decided he would let me say no contest and plea my case since I told him I wanted to plea not guilty but did not have the time to come back for another court date. Judge was extremely nice. Let me plea my case and he asked the officer a few things as well which I think benefited me as well. After about a 25 minute conversation the judge came up with his decision and decided to drop the charges to a $30 fine with no court cost....he asked the officer if he put up signs yet up at the entrance and he didnt answer.....he then got louder and said "MR BAURER DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT PUT THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS AT THE ENTRANCE LIKE THERES SUPPOSED TO BE OR NOT" and he was like ugghh ughhh ya we did they are up. He could tell he was lying which is why I think he dropped the chargers to only $30. Im grateful. Took time out of my day to handle but im happy I was right. I know for sure I will be staying out of that place and also staying away from that officer if I ever see him.
> 
> Thanks guys for all the advice as well I appreciate it immensely!


Glad you pretty much won besides having to pay the bs $30 but if there's no fishing allowed there anymore then Ohio DNR might want to update their sites as it's still lists Magee Marsh/Crane Creek area as fishable http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/mageemarsh#tabr4 https://www.stateparks.com/crane_creek_state_park_in_ohio.html Next time I'm out that way I'll stop in and see for myself.


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## spikeg79 (Jun 11, 2012)

Not too bring back an old topic but heard on WTOL's morning newscast on Fox36 the other morning that Crane Creek/Magee Marsh area is open to fishing according to one of their own employees who was being interviewed, though trying to find the video on WTOL's website is like pulling teeth.


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## Pooka (Jan 30, 2012)

Brand new in the news and facebook. 
*
Fish Joyce’s Dock in Vero Beach, Homeowner Claims to Own Water*

https://www.sebastiandaily.com/comm...ro-beach-homeowner-claims-to-own-water-16037/

https://www.facebook.com/fishjoycesdock/


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## s.a.m (Feb 22, 2016)

Magee Marsh/ crane Creek are state he was on federal national wildlife refuge property called Ottawa, they are right next to each other.


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