# Meldahl lock approach



## 23rd century

Someone posted this on the 23rd of Dec.They are enforcing the rules at the lock approach.They run you off if you try to fish in the approach past the long wall.On Sat the 5th we tried.There were 5-6 boats fishing down river from the end of the wall but any one trolling closer got to hear the siren and loud speaker telling you to exit the approach.The buoys are straight across from the end of the wall to Ky side which eliminates fishing the rocks.Not a lot of reason to go up there again unless they put their blinders on again.Anyone discovers a change we would appreciate the heads up.


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## Fish Assassin

Fish at the 400 foot mark on the bank and you will catch more and bigger fish than you ever will in lock approaches anyway!!


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## catfisherbrad

Fish Assassin, is this 400 foot mark from the bank on the KY or Ohio side. If on the KY side, is a Ohio fishing license accepted or no?


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## weekend angler

An Ohio license is good in Ky if you fish the Ohio river but you need a Ky license to fish any tributaries there.

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## Doboy

Fish Assassin said:


> Fish at the 400 foot mark on the bank and you will catch more and bigger fish than you ever will in lock approaches anyway!!


I enjoy reading ALL the remarks, on All the dams & locks. Like Who's winning/ who's loosing.
Your Meldahl dam is pert-near exact as our New Cumberland, Pike Pool,,, except we have rip-rap from the short lock wall (Ohio side) all the way down to the 400' marker, beyond the long 1,000' wall.
I'm guessing your talking about the 400' bank marker below the lock wall on the Ohio side? (Google Earth
Up here, that's were the fast turbulent water meets the bank & backwash into the lock. I've seen many huge eyes come out of that area, but never more than 1 or 2 a WEEK,,, evening & night.? ) 
During high water, when all the gaits are open, we catch all our limits of sauger off shore, inside the wall & backwash. When even 1 or 2 gaits are closed, you can't BUY a fish!
You would hardly ever see a boat up here, I'm guessing because WE just can't connect, often enough, even on a weekly basis.??? DO YOU GUYS ANCHOR? use Mostly JIGS & VIBES?
*THAT'S WHY I WANT TO HEAR EVERYTHING YOU SAY,,,, MAYBE YOU GUYS WILL GIVE US A CLUE?*
Your Creek Mouths (I see 3 cars parked at the mouth of creek below the dam, Ky side, can you bank-fish that whole side,,,, looks restricted?)
Those Creeks/ Rivers,,, Ky side, Snag & Locust, would be where I'd be boating,,, specially after this next warm-up & rain,,, through Feb & March.
and on the Ohio side, that River, upper pool along rt 221 (?), MAN, I get excited just looking at all the possibilities!!! All the way up to the first rapids and all the outside bends with deeper pools,,,, they should be poluted with sauger! Nice.
Well, Thanks for the info/ tips,,, & Good Luck
jer


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## 23rd century

Is the 400' sign the distance from the gate?If so they won't let you in there unless you are on the shore.


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## catcrazed

23rd century said:


> Is the 400' sign the distance from the gate?If so they won't let you in there unless you are on the shore.


I think he's talking about the signs up on the bank down river from the lock wall. It would be hard to see those signs from the bank if you were fishing you would have to turn around and look up the bank to see them...

there was a few times that ive fished from a boat just out from the 400' mark and smoked them but its hard to fish that spot when they have certain gates opened because theres current there.


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## catcrazed

catfisherbrad said:


> Fish Assassin, is this 400 foot mark from the bank on the KY or Ohio side. If on the KY side, is a Ohio fishing license accepted or no?


hes talking about the ohio side..


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## 23rd century

I've seen the signs on shore but could not remember if the 400' mark was within the lock wall or down from the end of the wall.It is a long haul from Erlanger to have limited fishing access.They have done this in the past and eventually relent.Thanks for the info
Steve


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## larryfish

It's been about a month or so since I have taken the boat down to Meldahl. From reading this post, sounds like things have changed. I witnessed boats waiting until a barge had started to enter the lock approach before moving off the wall. Stinks a few bad apples ruined it for the whole bunch....

About the white buoy's running from the end of the long wall to the KY shore. Are these new? The last time I was there there were three white buoy's near the middle of the river, but did not stretched from the long wall to the KY side? Is the area beyond the white buoy's off limits? I thought the red warning sign on the long wall was the off limits line? Perhaps that red sign is marking the water discharge and is not a boundary marker?

Reason I ask is because I live 75 miles from the Neville ramp and that's a lot of wasted gas if you can't fish the typical areas. I know there are many many other places to fish on the Big O, but it's nice to know before making the journey.

Thanks for any info!


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## Salmonid

yup, the 3 bouys are diaganol now and make it so you can not get anywhere near the best fishing areas. Its a real shame because if you go to Greenup Dam or Markland dam you can get to the 200 ft redline on the walls and at Markland, you can actually get up to touch the gates and no one really cares but god forbid you try that at Meldahl... Many folks have talked to the ACoE about it and they say each dam has there own rules with how close folks can be, blah blah blah...it all depends on the gatemaster at each dam and whicgh shift, I know at Meldahl they will get on the megaphone and shoo you off or I have heard from reliable sources that the DNR/Watercraft folks will just wait for you at the ramp with a citation. 

9/11 really caused the real problems here and if you look at what the Tenn Army Corps are about to do down there for no apparant reason, youll understand it really has nothing to do with safety but more of a political powerplay against taxpayers, 

Salmonid


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## larryfish

Thanks for the info Salmonid. Unfortunately everything I have read and have been hearing seems to all be true about Meldahl. It's a shame because I have had a blast making day trips down there with my friends and family. Heck, sometimes we had three boat loads down there at one time. Too much fun laughing and joking with each other while catching oodles of fish.

However much fun it is, it's just not worth running the risk of getting a ticket.


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## Fish Assassin

I was at the 400 foot mark one day and we kept 40 keepers over 3 pounds between 4 of us. There is a drop off/ledge there. Find it and find fish.


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## Daveo76

Salmonid said:


> yup, the 3 bouys are diaganol now and make it so you can not get anywhere near the best fishing areas. Its a real shame because if you go to Greenup Dam or Markland dam you can get to the 200 ft redline on the walls and at Markland, you can actually get up to touch the gates and no one really cares but god forbid you try that at Meldahl... Many folks have talked to the ACoE about it and they say each dam has there own rules with how close folks can be, blah blah blah...it all depends on the gatemaster at each dam and whicgh shift, I know at Meldahl they will get on the megaphone and shoo you off or I have heard from reliable sources that the DNR/Watercraft folks will just wait for you at the ramp with a citation.
> 
> 9/11 really caused the real problems here and if you look at what the Tenn Army Corps are about to do down there for no apparant reason, youll understand it really has nothing to do with safety but more of a political powerplay against taxpayers,
> 
> Salmonid


You can't get any closer than the end of the long lock wall at Greenup. Took all the good Sauger fishing


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## Mosey

Fished meldahl today at first light near the 400' marker, started hooking up from the beginning, managed several nice keepers. A few other boats showed up and sure enough here comes a guy on a cart out to the end of the lock wall telling everyone to leave and threatening to call the coastguard. Does anyone know what area they have a say over? The sign says no fishing in lock approach. What exactly does that consist of? I was tempted to wait him out cause we were on the fish. 


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## catcrazed

Mosey said:


> Fished meldahl today at first light near the 400' marker, started hooking up from the beginning, managed several nice keepers. A few other boats showed up and sure enough here comes a guy on a cart out to the end of the lock wall telling everyone to leave and threatening to call the coastguard. Does anyone know what area they have a say over? The sign says no fishing in lock approach. What exactly does that consist of? I was tempted to wait him out cause we were on the fish.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Okay, thats bull!!!! If your down river from the end of the lock aproack long wall they shouldnt be able to say a thing. They will have to call the next time im there if this is the case. This is just some jerk off with a power trip somewhere along the lines. Ill take a chance on a ticket. It will be worth a chance at a fine to atleast tell them to eat chit........... 

Am I getting this correct???? You were NOT in the lock approaches???? As in at the 400ft mark????? If thats the case like I said, id tell them to go ahead and call the warden and ill see them when they get there. 

Heres the thing, Im not one to push the law, but I will tell you that I think it is absolutely rediculous that they ran you off while floating outside of the approach........


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## Mosey

You understood me correctly. We were downstream of the lock wall and were asked to leave and threatened with a call to the coastguard. Near the 400' sign. This is getting ridiculous. He also gave some story about a boat being hit by a barge and a lawsuit ensued.


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## 23rd century

Check this link that is the application for the lockmaster position.Pays very well https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/323195400


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## 23rd century

here is another story about how the water around the dam became so restricted https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/684/684.F2d.404.81-3288.html


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## burt

I was asked to leave one time and asked, one of the employees that was throwing me out where can I legally fish and I was told the lock approach starts at the point at bear creek. Didn't want a ticket so I just went and fished bear creek.


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## Mosey

Had some thoughts on this matter. The river is a public body of water and all sorts of boats and watercraft are allowed to use it provided they are licensed, their vessel is registered and navigational rules and regulations are obeyed. I am allowed to use the lock the same as a commercial barge. I can and have locked through in the past. So is this an issue of activity. If so, I don't see how the army corp has the right to tell me what I can or can't do while on my boat. If they dont want recreational vessels in the lock approach then ban the boats.


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## catcrazed

montagc said:


> I checked that out and the lock arrival point ISS at Bear Creek. Look at the last chart here: http://www.lrl.usace.army.mil/optm/article.asp?id=790&MyCategory=41
> 
> I will say that anyone ignoring the lock masters instructions are not helping the cause. That will just lead to more and more rigidly enforced restriction. Your time would be better spent constructing a plan that will benefit the lock master, fisherman, and the barge operators.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Although I agree with you that its not going to help, whatelse can they take from us????? If we can only start fishing at bear creek the fishing is ruined......... Far as Im concerned for sauger fishing they may as well shut down the river all the way back to the new richmond ramp because that whole area there telling us we cant fish is the only good area to fish for sauger there. F it man...... Im not about starting trouble but its another thing when I pay for a fishing license to Fish OUR river and cant even do it........... 

Someone above stated a boat got hit and someone is sueing..... Id say that has more to do with us not being allowed in there than the older fella that screwed up things the day I was there............ Everyone wants to sue someone today and with lawyers willing to represent idiots that they know are guilty of being wrong they still represent them...... I wouldnt be surprised if that person doesnt get one heck of a chunk of change.......


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## larryfish

Even though the Corp is s federal agency, perhaps we can come to some compromise with the lock masters and barge companies by contacting the state rep for district 65. I do not reside in Clermont Co. but I do pay my share of state and federal taxes. 

It is my opinion that we have a voice if we ban together. I encourage all of you who have been following this thread to spread the word and call or email.

District 65
State Rep John Becker
Phone: (614) 466-8134
link to send email: http://www.ohiohouse.gov/john-becker/contact


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## larryfish

"Hello State Rep Mr. John Becker,

I do not reside in Clermont Co. However, I do pay OH State and federal taxes. I also have a registered boat, trailer and current fishing licenses. There is a situation on the Ohio River. Meldahl dam in your district to be exact. 

For decades fisherman have fished the lock approach areas in the fall,winter and spring months for the superb fishing the Ohio River has to offer. Now lock masters at Meldahl are not allowing any fishing in these areas. Threatening fisherman with calls to law enforcement and coast guard. I am sure there is a reason for not allowing fishermen in these areas. The rumor I heard was due to complaints by the barge companies that fishermen were not getting out of the way of barges approaching the locks. 

The water is public and for the people to use and I understand the economic value the barge transportation brings to Ohio. However, if there are no fisherman, there is economic loss to the small business establishments that survive off of the fisherman in selling goods (gas, food/drink & etc.) for example.

All I am asking is that you look into this situation and perhaps work on a compromise that will allow fisherman and barges to co-exist. The Ohio river is a wonderful resource and it would be a real shame to be denied the opportunity to utilize it.

Thank you for your time."


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## 23rd century

I to do not live there but I sent a message.Here is a copy.
Sir,
I am contacting you as part of an effort by some of the fisherman who over the years have fished the Meldahl lock and dam.I understand the restricted areas are there for safety.The area below the gates at first glance seems to be excessive in size.If worst case scenarios are used a boat which becomes totally disabled in this area is in a lot of trouble.I have no suggestion for compromise there.The lock approach area though can be safely fished if there were rules.There could be an educational process where an individual could be trained and licensed to fish there.Possibly designated times when fishing could be done.This area has produced some of the best fishing ever experienced by a lot of fishermen.This is likely not in your jurisdiction but you may have some advice.
Thanks for your concern,
Steve


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## jim Green

I've fished Meldahl for the last 45 years, before that I lived in the "Burg" and grew up fishing Greenup, when you could walk out on the spillway. Ever since 9/11 they have restricted fishing in the lock approach. Some years the lockmaster would let us on the wall, some years/months/weeks he or she would NOT. I heard that in December, after I had fished the wall, some DUMBA$$ in a pontoon boat would not leave the lock approach and almost got squashed when the skipper of a tow tried to get in the lock. Someone always screws up the good spots. It is the fisherman that caused this problem, NOT the lockmaster or Corp. of Eng. Lets hope that we get permission to get back in and we ALL do our part to inform the not-so-smart fishing guys as to the proper behavior while in the lock approach.


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## burt

Thing I don't get is if I don't anchor anywhere who owns the water I am floating on. If the core does they should catch the water as it flows through and keep it. Cause there property is running away from them and flooding some things causing damage in some places. When it comes to money they would say its not there water and if so how can they tell me where to float in my boat when I am not physically touching the dam or the river bottom.


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## Trophy Hunter

I just took a class in environmental policy and law. Let me do some research in the ol' casebook and see what comes up. I'm not sure how the commerce clause applies in this situation. This is more of a property issue and some remedy for us may be found in common law, but also for the Corps at the same time. Since the Court ruled in favor of the Corps in the past, and this is federal property, it seems like we have a pretty weak position. I like fishing sauger at Meldahl too. Let me talk to my professor about this.

Also, the Ohio River has what's called designated use (DU), which includes barge traffic and recreational fishing. The instance where DU's applied, in the cases that I studied, was relative to the Clean Water Act (CWA). This is a separate area of the law, having nothing to do with the CWA. I don't think we have any legal standing unfortunately. It really depends on language in the statutes that govern the area - whatever those might be. If the statues say anything like "shall ensure recreational use" or "shall ensure safety", then that will tell us who has standing. I'll keep you all posted on my fact finding mission.

Best Regards, 

TH


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## Trophy Hunter

"Restricted areas at locks and dams. All waters immediately above and below each dam, as posted by the respective District Engineers, are hereby designated as restricted areas. No vessel or other floating craft shall enter any such restricted area at any time. The *limits of the restricted areas* at each dam will be determined by the responsible District Engineer and market (sic) by signs and/or flashing red lights installed in conspicuous and appropriate places" 33 C.F.R. § 207.300(s). 

"Limits of restricted areas" is the operative phrase. It seems the District Engineer does have the authority to limit our use of the area. 

There may be something that overrides this. Maybe . . .


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## Trophy Hunter

Outside of locks. (i) No vessel or other craft shall regularly or permanently moor in any reach of a navigation channel. The approximate centerline of such channels are marked as the sailing line on Corps of Engineers' navigation charts. Nor shall any floating craft, except in an emergency, moor in any narrow or hazardous section of the waterway. Furthermore, all vessels or other craft are prohibited from regularly or permanently mooring in any section of navigable waterways which are congested with commercial facilities or traffic unless it is moored at facilities approved by the Secretary of the Army or his authorized representative. The limits of the congested areas shall be marked on Corps of Engineers' navigation charts. However, the District Engineer may authorize in writing exceptions to any of the above if, in his judgment, such mooring would not adversely affect navigation and anchorage" C.F.R. § 207.300 (m)(2).

This is the statute that governs the lock approach. 

Mooring - an act of making fast a boat or aircraft with lines or anchors - Webster-Merriam. 

I read § 207.300 pretty closely. It doesn't mention fishing in the lock approach, or even imply anything. read it for yourself, but the lockmaster doesn't have authority unless your mooring in the approach. I'm almost 100%


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## Trophy Hunter

The lock approach doesn't fit the definition of "restricted area," so (s) doesn't apply. (m) refers to mooring activity only. There is no statutory language, none, that supports a lockmasters authority to prohibit fishing in the lock approach. 

Unless there's some other statute that I'm missing. 

Anybody want to bring a citizen suit against the Corps? I'm in . . . I think we have legal standing.


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## fallen513

Just about everybody moors their boat to the lock wall with the big magnets.


No ground to stand on unfortunately. With the hydro going in, it will be limited access on that side as well.


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## Trophy Hunter

Isn't the hydro on the KY side?

Drifting through the lock approach doesn't fall under jurisdiction. LM can't run you off for drifting through.


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## fallen513

The lock master can & does dictate what goes on in the lock approach. 

99% of the anglers that fish there understand and respect this, as I've witnessed many times as they (we) scurry out of the way of an approaching barge.

Nobody "drifts through". They moor on the wall with magnetic anchors and vertical jig.


The point is, it only takes _one_ bozo to screw it up for everyone, because the decision ultimately does fall into the hands of the lock master, who has the coast guard at his disposal. If he/she is in a bad mood & feels like the shipping channel is being obstructed... you'll be fishing @ Bear Creek for a few weeks.


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## multi species angler

I've ask this once on this forum and got no replies so I'll try again.

If you or someone you know has been ticketed or fined let us hear about it.

I don't believe they can fine someone for being in the lock approach fishing because boats aren't restricted from that area. If they were, boats wouldn't be able to lock thru. It's the fishing that is being restricted not the boats.


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## Trophy Hunter

fallen513, I see your point. I've been fishing there since the eighties. It's too bad.

I just got access to a boat last season and was looking forward to fishing sauger there this year. I went there and fished the lock approach last summer. The "no fishing in the lock approach" sign was there but nobody bothered us, but we didn't tie up or anchor. Before, I used to bank fish and watch the madness.

I can see why the area has been restricted. Most times guys would wait until the last seconds, start their boats and move. As soon as the barge entered the lock, everybody would race back to the wall trying to get their spot back before someone horned them out. This attitude is the problem. I can only imagine what it's like trying to manage barge traffic or even pilot a barge under these conditions. 

So far, I'm almost 100% positive that you can fish the lock approach but you can't moor in the lock approach. Of course, the test would be to get cited and take it to Court. *I don't recommend that anyone do this.* Maybe just mention this to them, or whoever else holds a stake in this issue. The statutes are clear on the issue, no mooring at the discretion of the District Engineer. That's it, unless some other laws besides C.F.R. § 207.300 govern the area. 

More on this later. I emailed my professor yesterday.

TH


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## catcrazed

As said above with Mooring........ Talking about folks connecting themselves to the wall with magnets....... Yes most folks do it but I for one don't. I have a bass boat and just use my trolling motor.....

You know, I could care less about not being able to fish in the "lock approack" which I considered at the end of the long lock wall but there now telling us we cannot fish from the long the dam lock doors all the way down to bear creek because that is all "the lock approack"........... Its a power trip is all it is. They can call the wardens on me, im not going to enter into there sacred walls but ill be damn if im not gonna fish the stetch from the end of the long lock wall all the way down to bear creek...............

PPl keep saying im just going to make things worse on us all yada yada yada well like I said, I pay for a fishing license to fish the river and thats exactly what im going to be doing. If i get a ticket, I get a ticket......


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## larryfish

Thanks for all the digging you've done on this subject. It will be interesting to see what your professor says about the subject as well.

As far as mooring. For all the times I have fished the lock approach, I have never once anchored or tied to the wall. I am fortunate enough to have a Minn-Kota Terrova on my boat and I use the Spot Lock feature to hold, if I need to. I find that I have better luck actually easing around with the trolling motor and not staying in one spot.


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## ScottB

Here is an idea, but it could backfire and make things worse. Troll very slowly through the lock approach fishing while you go. When you get to the doors, inform the lock master that you want to lock through. While he gets the lock ready, continue fishing. Lock through and fish the upper pool for 5 minutes and tell the lock master that you are ready to lock back down. After you lock through, troll slowing through the hot spots again. 

Keep repeating this over and over. If multiple boats are down there, take turns. Two things could happen:
1. The lock master gets tired of screwing around opening and closing the doors constantly and goes back to letting people fish along the wall. Makes things easier for everyone. Fisherman get to fish, and the lock master gets to go back inside and catch up on his sleep between barges. 

2. The lock master gets p***ed off and calls the coast guard. Don't really know what they could do, just tell them that you can't make up your mind whether to fish the high side or the low side.

:T:T:T


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## fallen513

That would work the first time you make it through. Then you're gonna get a few hours to think about it when you're on the wrong side of the dam & the lockmaster is laughing at you. 



> (s) Restricted areas at locks and dams. All waters immediately above and below each dam, as posted by the respective District Engineers, are hereby designated as restricted areas. No vessel or other floating craft shall enter any such restricted area at any time. The limits of the restricted areas at each dam will be determined by the responsible District Engineer and marked by signs and/or flashing red lights installed in conspicuous and appropriate places.



TN has banned everyone from being within 1000 feet of all dams. Ruined a lot of people's day when they heard that one.


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## Trophy Hunter

Sub-section (s) does not apply to the lock approach, fallen513. The word "shall" is one of the most powerful words in law. We call that an imperative command because it has virtually no interpretation. Congress intended those sentences to command action. The "no vessel shall enter" phrase rules out common areas that must be navigable like the lock approach. The District Engineer would not be able to designate the lock approach "restricted" because of interstate commerce. Restricted areas are like the ones marked by buoys with the _diamond with the cross in the middle _symbol or the "stay back" sign at Markland that fall under (s). 

I have not heard from my professor. He's a pretty laid back guy and doesn't check his email unless he needs to for something specific. I'm going to try and drop in on him soon.

If I were down there, on my boat, and because I know the law, I would contest the lockmaster. If he asked me to leave and I wasn't moored, or interfering with barge traffic, he/she would have to call USCG. 

I recall another post some years ago, regarding the same issue at Beckjord Power Plant. The poster mentioned he asked a group of KY game wardens about a barge pilot telling him to leave the area while fishing. Those KY wardens told him he could fish there if he was not moored, not in a restricted area, and not interfering with barge traffic. 

The simple solution, but somehow hard for some 'people' to do: MOVE BEFORE THE BARGE GETS TO BEAR CREEK. 

I'm sure moving when the barge gets there would be a big improvement. 

The law is clear as far as I'm concerned: no mooring in the lock approach at the discretion of the District Engineer. A sign reading "no fishing in the lock approach" is outside the law. Notice how the sign does not have any government agency placard on it? That's because the sign has no enforcement mechanism, no law behind it. Compare the sign with the ones on the fence around the facility that read "Restricted Area, No Tresspassing, U.S. Goverment Property." It looks like the lockmaster picked up the "no fishing" sign at signs-r-us. It is my firm belief that that sign has no authority behind it. 

I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to send someone out to harass the fishermen and hang a sign then to spend the day dealing with pissed off barge pilots. Nevertheless, can anyone tell me which law gives a lockmaster the authority to command you to leave a body of water that has been designated for recreational use? 

That's because C.F.R. § 207.300, "OHIO RIVER, MISSISSIPPI RIVER ABOVE CAIRO, ILL., AND THEIR TRIBUTARIES; USE, ADMINISTRATION, AND NAVIGATION," the very law that governs the lock approach at Meldahl, does not grant anyone authority to kick you out, on two conditions: (1) do not moor, and (2) do not interfere with commercial traffic.. 

That's it! I'm calling the Sierra Club. Maybe they'll fight this thing with me. 

TH


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## Doboy

Trophy Hunter said:


> I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to send someone out to harass the fishermen and hang a sign then to spend the day dealing with pissed off barge pilots. Nevertheless, can anyone tell me which law gives a lockmaster the authority to command you to leave a body of water that has been designated for recreational use?
> That's because C.F.R. § 207.300, "OHIO RIVER, MISSISSIPPI RIVER ABOVE CAIRO, ILL., AND THEIR TRIBUTARIES; USE, ADMINISTRATION, AND NAVIGATION," the very law that governs the lock approach at Meldahl, does not grant anyone authority to kick you out, on two conditions: (1) do not moor, and (2) do not interfere with commercial traffic..
> 
> That's it! I'm calling the Sierra Club. Maybe they'll fight this thing with me.
> 
> *Oh Baby! I Love this stuff,,,,
> I'm an argumentative being,,,,, Bitch is, I can't get my hands behind my back,,,,, For the 'cuffs'! *


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## Trophy Hunter

Doboy, getting cited for not leaving the area is one approach. 

Petitioning the Court is essentially putting the cuffs behind the back of the lockmaster. I'm going to look into this. 

If we win the case, the sign comes down.

TH


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## Doboy

Trophy Hunter said:


> Doboy, getting cited for not leaving the area is one approach.
> Petitioning the Court is essentially putting the cuffs behind the back of the lockmaster. I'm going to look into this.
> If we win the case, the sign comes down.
> 
> *Thank You,,, WE all thank you for your 'time'.
> But WE must remember, SAFTY FIRST!*
> 
> About 2 weeks ago, there was an OGF friend, in his boat by himself, backtrolling & slowly drifting right at the end of the long wall, ON THE BLIND SIDE OF THE LOCK ENTRANCE/ EXIT. There was a tug with full drag exiting down river and about 20 guys fishing on shore watching the whole deal go down.
> 
> I must admitt, that was a VERY SCARY scenario,,, I was cringing.
> When the barge made it to the end of that wall, it HAD to be within 20' of that boat! Right at the end of the wall in the fast turbulent water!???
> *'IF' HIS MOTOR STALLED, "IF' he got sucked into the drags backwash,,,,,,*
> 
> I WAS YELLING TO Snake TO CALL HIM & WARN HIM,,,,
> Telling him to Get Away QUICK!
> After the barge passed, the boat had disappeared from the eyesight of the guys on shore,,, I felt SICK!
> 
> YES, he was totally in his 'right',,,, and YES, he's alive and well,,,
> BUT
> I was expecting the Lockmaster to lay on the 'HORN',,, or even the Captain of that drag,,,, SOME KIND OF WARNING SYSTEM. The warning horn was sounded when the lower doors were opened, but a fisherman, in a running boat, would never hear it on the other side of that wall,,,, I guess He didn't.
> 
> NONE OF THESE ARGUMENTS MAKE SENSE, AFTER I ENVISIONED THIS BAD, DEADLY ENDING.
> No fish, or FREEDOM is worth it.


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## Trophy Hunter

I'm not positive at this point but to file a complaint in district court might cost. One source says $400.00. There may be a fund raising component to this.


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## Trophy Hunter

Doboy, however tragic an accident would have been, the operator of that boat, or any other vessel, is liable for the safe operation of their boat or vessel. What you're saying is like not driving because of the possibility of wrecking into a truck. The lock approach, like the highway, is for public use.


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## Trophy Hunter

Can someone post a picture of the sign please?


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## 23rd century

Maybe this should be posted as a new thread and you might get more people to write this guy.I think it is a good idea but it is kind of buried in the middle of the second page of my original post.


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## Trophy Hunter

23rd, by "write this guy," I'm assuming you mean our State Rep. to the House of Representatives, John Becker. He would be concerned with writing and passing law on the issue of fishing the lock approach. This would be our best remedy, but also the less likely to happen. The judicial system interprets the law, applies the law and settles disputes about the law. 

The important thing to be mindful of is that laws that have already been passed support us, sauger fisherman, in the enjoyment of the lock approach area. Writing letters when addressing the judicial system is like fishing for whitetail deer. The whitetail may appreciate your attentive presentation, but can't do anything with it. 

Taking this to Court will most likely result in the sign coming down and sauger fishing will be allowed if not moored or obstructing commercial traffic. There will likely be some form of retaliation like restricting other areas when the law allows. Taking this Court should be a last resort. 

I'm going to start negotiating and start engaging conversation between fisherman and Corps. 

Keep ya posted!

TH


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## catcrazed

Trophy Hunter said:


> 23rd, by "write this guy," I'm assuming you mean our State Rep. to the House of Representatives, John Becker. He would be concerned with writing and passing law on the issue of fishing the lock approach. This would be our best remedy, but also the less likely to happen. The judicial system interprets the law, applies the law and settles disputes about the law.
> 
> The important thing to be mindful of is that laws that have already been passed support us, sauger fisherman, in the enjoyment of the lock approach area. Writing letters when addressing the judicial system is like fishing for whitetail deer. The whitetail may appreciate your attentive presentation, but can't do anything with it.
> 
> Taking this to Court will most likely result in the sign coming down and sauger fishing will be allowed if not moored or obstructing commercial traffic. There will likely be some form of retaliation like restricting other areas when the law allows. Taking this Court should be a last resort.
> 
> I'm going to start negotiating and start engaging conversation between fisherman and Corps.
> 
> Keep ya posted!
> 
> TH


Listen man, I, along with several others are VERY appreciative of your time on this thread. Im no rich man, but I personally will put up the $400 as mentioned above if it comes down to that!!!!!! Im sooooo pissed about this deal that it would be worth it (the $) to me to try to get this fishing area back for us fisherman........ I dam sure am not as intelligent as you when it comes to law but it also seems to be "common sense" to me that they (meldahl) do not "own" the water that our boats are floating in. 

I see it like this, if I fly a helicopter over your property can you make me leave? no, im not touching your property. Just the same as if Im floating down a creek in a kayak down a state owned creek. As long as im floating there is nothing the property owner that ownes the property under the water can do....... Maybe Im looking at this wrong, I don't think so though.

Here is what gets me so honked off though. Heck I can live with not entering the lock walls but even when were fishing down stream from the long wall there telling us that we cannot fish the areas from the dam all the way down to bear creek!!!! Saying that the reason why is because there is a sign downstream that said "ARRIVAL POINT", and that we cannot fish from that sign all the way to the dam. All of this while im FLOATING and not touching or setting foot on there property........... 

Just remember what I said above. If there is not funding out there somewhere for the $400 out there as you mentioned, we can get together and Ill cover that for us all! 

I agree with you also, get out of the way before they get to bear creek but you know what im guilty of trying to get that "ONE LAST DROP" in before they get there to but I def will never be that way again........


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## Trophy Hunter

My law professor didn't know what to say. He deals in other areas of the law.

I'm going to start making some phone calls tomorrow morning.

TH

ps- it's my pleasure to help. I enjoy solving legal issues, especially related to sporting issues.


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## Mosey

Trophy Hunter said:


> Can someone post a picture of the sign please?












Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Mosey

Trophy Hunter said:


> Can someone post a picture of the sign please?












Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## catcrazed

Mosey, thanks for posting the picture!!!

That pic as at the end of the long lock wall. They have now moved the "do not enter buoys out to that point so basically draw an imaginary line from the ohio to ky side of the river right where that sign is at the end of the wall.

I Hate it that we cant go in the lock walls anymore and hope it can be salvaged, but that sign has been there forever and were prolly lucky we got to fish in the locks while we did 

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still don't think that they have the right to tell us that we cannot fish from the end of that wall, all the way down river to bear creek!!!! absolutely garbage. If there are buoys saying no entrance I understand but there saying that 1/4 mile stretch all the way down to bear creek is off limits also....... So basically the way I see it they have darn near doubled the "off limits" fishing area and half of that isnt even marked!!!!! Like I said above, the next time im there im not going to push the issue but i am going to fish the ohio side between the long wall and bear creek and if they have a problem with it.... Well, NO SPEAKA ENGLES!!! They can just go ahead and call patrol..........


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## catcrazed

ALRIGHT FELLAS,

I may have gotten somewhere today......Ive been on the phone a bunch today about the meldahl dam situation. After working my way up the ladder and about 10 phone calls I finally got in touch with the head of operations of "meldahl"...... He was based out of huntington west virginia. I asked him if he could explain exactly "what" was off limits to fishermen below the dam. He and I both pulled up a 3d google map so we could both look at it. He said to draw an imaginary line from the ky to ohio side at the end of the long lock wall........... I told him that was fine with me so he asks, well why did you call then???? 

I then went into how I was fishing about 75 feet downstream from the long lock wall and one of the folks came out onto the end of the wall and told me I was not able to fish the ohio side all the way from the dam all the way down to bear creek...... There was a terribly long pause and he saids "well, I need to call and talk to the lock master about that because that is definetly NOT restricted area"............. I told him that was all I needed to know and I would tell them to call and talk to him if there was a problem. He told me before I do that he needed to talk with them and he would call me back beginning of the week...............

Now he already stated he was head of operations over several dams, one being meldahl and he already stated the boundaries so i sure hope he doesnt go back on his words when he calls me back just to side with the dam operators...........

Im not going to post his name and number on this site YET!!! IF he does in fact go back on his word I would hope you would all call and express how you feel about this situation......... Kinda wish I woulda recorded the phone call now...... He was a very pleasent to deal with on the phone so i hope he stays true to his word!!!!


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## Trophy Hunter

Thank you catcrazed. I was getting to around to contacting the Huntington WV office myself. I'm communicating with the local chapter of the Sierra Club right now. Keep us posted.

The "director" you speak of gave you a false statement. The restricted area runs in straight line from the KY side to the end of the lock wall and NOT all the way to the Ohio side. This could be an acceptable compromise (not by me); however, that statement is absolutely wrong. Even if USACE wanted to restrict the area from the lock wall to the Ohio side,there is clear, unambiguous law that doesn't allow. I think we can do better than that. USACE has historically interpreted the law anyway they want or just plain bullied people. The Sierra Club has been to the Supreme Court with all kinds of issues similar to this one. 

Let me see what comes up.

TH


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## Trophy Hunter

I contacted our local chapter of the Sierra Club yesterday and actually got a response today. She asked for an email outlining our issues and I just sent it out a few minutes ago. 

I'm pretty sure that USACE are now looking at the statues to see where they stand. Although compromise is a possibility, we have a strong case, and shouldn't back down. Best scenario would be "okay... fish... just move out of the way so my barge pilots don't pucker up every time they lock through." Part of their mission statement does involve public interest, so they will at least listen. 

Our mission, if we all agree, is to fish the sauger run, and ensure access to the dam for other species. Pushing back the restricted area toward the gates should be one of our goals, as well as opening the lock approach. Don't forget the turbines will be in soon, and the Kentucky side should open up as well. I can't see why the restricted area behind the gates was increased in the first place.

Anywho, our contact at the Sierra Club is Marilyn Walls. She should respond to my email in a couple days. As always, keep ya posted.

Best,

TH


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## PT-63

Firstly: The corp of engineers is currently re evaluating and assigning new "no boat zones" on all its facilities. Check the Kentucky DNRs site for info on public hearings regarding these new regs. Which were apparently instituted in 1996 but have not been enforced properly.

Next: The lockmaster is bound by his job description to enforce these regs. And in the past they have been neglected ,according to who was on shift at the time.

Finally: We brought this on ourselves!!
Every time I went to Meldahl last fall, the lock master had to evacuate the lockway several time every day. I was personally asked by the lockmaster, to motor down to obstructing boats
( usually 2-3 dumbasses, drinkin beer and actin like they" didn't know nuthin") twice, along with several other guys, to deliver the message. 
All our protests will be over ridden by the Barge captains and deck hands complaints . Who by the way, were blowin horns,wavin and hollerin. Each time. I monitered the radio and the complaints were non stop. 

In summation. I suggest in the future we abide by these rules and assist in spreading them amongst the few Self absorbed dimwitted guys who RUIN IT for the rest. Before the regs are extended even farther.


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## kycreek

Working at a power plant I can't believe I'm siding with the Sierra club but sometimes you gotta dance with the devil to get what you want.


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## Doboy

PT-63 said:


> In summation. I suggest in the future we abide by these rules and assist in spreading them amongst the few *Self absorbed dimwitted guys who RUIN IT for the rest * Before the regs are extended even farther.
> 
> Yes PT, Well stated.
> 
> Yesterday, At Our Club's general meeting, the Pa Warden simply gave me a booklet ( Pa Boating Handbook) with a picture,,,,
> "here's where you will get arrested, and here's where you won't!"
> "The buoys and signs in the pic detail restrictions for boating, swimming & wading, and hazards posed by the dam."
> 
> NOTE IN PIC; *'Buoys During Recreation Season'* lol, now isn't THAT clear as MUD!?
> NOTHING is said about anchoring or fishing in the waterway, and nothing is said about fishing above the lock wall, after the bouys are pulled for winter.
> 
> There are priorities set for safe & efficient passage;
> Military craft
> Mail boats
> Commercial Passenger craft
> Commercial tows
> Commercial Fisherman
> Pleasure boats


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## catcrazed

Trophy Hunter said:


> Thank you catcrazed. I was getting to around to contacting the Huntington WV office myself. I'm communicating with the local chapter of the Sierra Club right now. Keep us posted.
> [/COLOR]
> The "director" you speak of gave you a false statement. The restricted area runs in straight line from the KY side to the end of the lock wall and NOT all the way to the Ohio side..
> 
> TH




This was actually MY MISTAKE!!! He said restricted for FISHING...... Not restricted all together........ 

Once again, thank you for all your foot work on this issue also!!


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## fallen513

> The "director" you speak of gave you a false statement. The restricted area runs in straight line from the KY side to the end of the lock wall and NOT all the way to the Ohio side...



^ false. From the lock wall to the Ohio side is the shipping channel! You can't obstruct it at any time. The fact you've been allowed to for years means nothing.


The restricted area is _wherever the lockmaster says it is_, backed by the district engineer. Whether moored or drifting, you do not have the right to block the channel. That's how it is on all navigable waters, including passes & inlets along our coasts. 


It would appear the few people getting in "that one last cast" have ruined it for you.


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## Daveo76

fallen513 said:


> ^ false. From the lock wall to the Ohio side is the shipping channel! You can't obstruct it at any time. The fact you've been allowed to for years means nothing.
> 
> 
> The restricted area is _wherever the lockmaster says it is_, backed by the district engineer. Whether moored or drifting, you do not have the right to block the channel. That's how it is on all navigable waters, including passes & inlets along our coasts.
> 
> 
> It would appear the few people getting in "that one last cast" have ruined it for you.


Agreed Seth, because if that area wasn't restricted ALL the way to the lockwall, people could motor right up to the dam beside the lockwall and I don't think boats are permitted to do that. With the hydro going in, sounds like they are getting their enforcement methods ready. Sucks but that's the way it is. There are more places to get Saugers besides a lockwall or chamber. We've been through all this crap at Greenup and have adjusted.


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## Mean Morone

I think the attitude of the Lock Master has a lot to do with which side of the bed he got out of. I've seen boats up in the first gate next to the lock wall. Man I thought that guy was crazy. Nothing said to him. One other time, my buddy and I are anchored up on the KY side in front of a big Oak tree. We are WAY down stream from the dam. Didn't matter. We hear a loud speaker threatening to call the coast guard on us if we did move on down stream. At first we thought they had to be talking to someone else because we were so far down. No, he kept threatening us until we left. I'm sure we were inside the end of the lock wall, but not by much. This was 8 or 10 years ago. We don't fish Meldahl much anymore.


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## boonecreek

I fish from the bank, don,t have a boat. So hay, why don,t u all cry baby boat fish,in ,just stay a mile from all lock and dam al together. There some boat fisher men fish right up on the bank getting in the way off those who don,t have a boat, hows that. Going ripping up and down the river like u own the place, with no cosideration for the people who have no other way to fish the river.


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## burt

boonecreek said:


> I fish from the bank, don,t have a boat. So hay, why don,t u all cry baby boat fish,in ,just stay a mile from all lock and dam al together. There some boat fisher men fish right up on the bank getting in the way off those who don,t have a boat, hows that. Going ripping up and down the river like u own the place, with no cosideration for the people who have no other way to fish the river.


WTF I always motor out slowly trying to be considerate to others. That is uncalled for not all that have boats are like that.


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## Trophy Hunter

Boonecreek, I don't have a boat either. The last time I fished the lock approach from the bank, a guy in a boat crossed my line twice. He jerked really hard right before I grabbed his hook to untangled his line. If that wasn't enough, he repeated the offense. Yes, that man was a @#$%, and, yes, I wanted to kick his %$#. He wouldn't come to the party and it was too cold to swim - although I almost did. Unfortunately, there's the possiblity to encounter irrational people in any public situation. I don't shake my fist in the air at every boat when fishing from the bank because I know that a certain percentage of the general public will behave in ways I cannot understand. I choose to let go. And, that does not negate anyones right to enjoy the sauger run: boot, boat or barge.

fallen513, "Restricted area, shipping channel, and lock approach" are all defined in § 207.300 and apply to the regulations in specific ways. I've been trained to interpret the law at the University of Cincinnati and would be happy to bring you up to speed. Where's the support for your assertions?  

There's some confusion regarding the exact nature of the issue, the facts surrounding the issue, and what the goals of this movement concern. Let's clarify.

*WHY DO I CARE?*
I've been fishing Meldahl over thirty years. When I was a kid, my dad and my uncles would take me camping at Bear Creek and the sand bar on the KY side. Casting into the morning fog, the sound of the lockmaster's whistle, catching an American eel on a nightcrawler, snagging a 30lb paddlefish, having a 12lb hybrid nearly rip my arms off, finding relief for the cabin fever catching jack salmon, all the fond memories associated with fishing Captain Anthony Meldahl is why I care. It's plain and simple. We have the right to enjoy the outdoors regardless of careless stupidity. That's the beauty of living in a free society. We're working toward a solution that works for fishermen, barge pilots and the USACE. 

*WHAT'S THE ISSUE?* 
Lockmasters at the Captain Anthony Meldahl Locks and Dam (CAMLD) prohibit fishermen access to public waters designated for multiple use. According to the lockmaster, the entire channel on the Ohio side from Arrival Point (marked "AP" on the navigation chart) up to the locks comprise the lock approach, and has restricted the area with a sign reading "No Fishing in the Lock Approach." This is way beyond the scope of USACE authority. Navigation chart page 49 here: http://www.kentuckyboatingsupply.com/files/Download/Ohio River Charts Markland%

_Sander canadensis_, the sauger, migrate upriver starting in the fall and stage immediately below the dam before spawning in the spring. Once spawning is complete, the sauger disperse throughout the river and are rarely caught outside of this spawning migration. Fishing is phenomenal during the colder months, giving sportsmen the opportunity to enjoy the outdoors when most other opportunities subsist until warmer seasons. This spawning run has become a tradition passed down through generations. Since the hydroelectric project broke ground at CAMLD, the restricted area below the dam has been extended beyond the sauger's staging area and fishing grounds have been eliminated. The only area left, the lock approach on the Ohio side, is now being enforced "no fishing" outside of current legislation, completely eliminating boat access to this fishery. 

*HOW WILL THIS MOVEMENT PROCEED?*
By no means is this a stick it to the man approach. The goal is to find all stakeholders an accepatable remedy to their concerns. This includes sportsmen, commercial transportation and government agency. What happens next will depend on a response pending from the Huntington WV District Engineer early in the week. The District Engineer does set restricted areas, so we want to be diplomatic. THE LOCK APPROACH IS NOT A RESTRICTED AREA BY DEFINITION. Limitations on fishing the lock approach are currently under negotiation. Increasing the area open to fishing below Meldahl dam is the goal.

I would encourage anyone with questions, comments and concerns to raise their voice here. Please allow me to handle the negotiations. Matters like this one are my specialty. 

Best Regards,

TH


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## C J Hughes

To all of the guys who stayed on the wall until they came down and told you to get off . To everyone who hollered cussed and shouted to the barge captains and lock workers . A special thanks goes out to the guy that refused to move because his mom always told him he was special and he only had to do what he wanted to do you are special in so many ways just ask your mom . Thanks for saving all of those saugers full of eggs from the frying pan . GREAT JOB WELL DONE ! This is the 2nd time in my life they shut the locks down due to fisherman , I quit fishing the locks along time ago toooo many special people . Should be a good hatch this spring lots of fish are going to make it this year ! Thanks Again !


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## Fish Assassin

One bad apple ruins the whole basket. How about putting the blame where it belongs. That is to the morons that didn't listen and ruin it for everyone else. I have caught hundreds of sauger in those lock approaches but I always figured it would be screwed up by some idiot who was afraid he wasn't going to have any crumbs to fry. I can't blame the Corps for taking a stance against ignorance too bad it's at everyone else's expense. But blame the idiots not the Corps!!


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## I Fish

Fish Assassin said:


> But blame the idiots not the Corps!!


I don't know. It seems to me, as the Corps, the Coast Guard, DNR, Sheriff, and any other government agaency I may have left out, have the same paycheck writer (us), there could be some cooperation? Like maybe the Corps calls in the offender's boat numbers and, violla! they've got a ticket in the mail for obstructing a waterway? I mean, they seem to make big $ with traffic tickets by camera, why should this be any different? If the offenders would be punished in the beginning, they wouldn't be ruining it for the rest of us, right? Another point is, why should they be willing to ticket you for fishing in their "new" restricted waterway, when they weren't willing to ticket those who caused the problems to begin with? Why, especially with all the Homeland Security money flying around, couldn't they install loud speakers to inform us of their intentions, even if it were a recording, as opposed to relying on people understanding and knowing the language of bells, whistles, and alarms? How about English, instead of Morse Code, or do they really not want people to understand? 

IMO, punishing everyone for a couple of people's mistakes only happens in school and the service, and, we as free people aren't in either. Trophy Hunter, I wish you luck. Please, if the legal fees start adding up, let everyone know. This needs it's own thread. Good luck!


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## catcrazed

I Fish said:


> I don't know. It seems to me, as the Corps, the Coast Guard, DNR, Sheriff, and any other government agaency I may have left out, have the same paycheck writer (us), there could be some cooperation? Like maybe the Corps calls in the offender's boat numbers and, violla! they've got a ticket in the mail for obstructing a waterway? I mean, they seem to make big $ with traffic tickets by camera, why should this be any different? If the offenders would be punished in the beginning, they wouldn't be ruining it for the rest of us, right? Another point is, why should they be willing to ticket you for fishing in their "new" restricted waterway, when they weren't willing to ticket those who caused the problems to begin with? Why, especially with all the Homeland Security money flying around, couldn't they install loud speakers to inform us of their intentions, even if it were a recording, as opposed to relying on people understanding and knowing the language of bells, whistles, and alarms? How about English, instead of Morse Code, or do they really not want people to understand?
> 
> IMO, punishing everyone for a couple of people's mistakes only happens in school and the service, and, we as free people aren't in either. Trophy Hunter, I wish you luck. Please, if the legal fees start adding up, let everyone know. This needs it's own thread. Good luck!


Ive never thought of it this way^^^^^^^. But that is definetly an idea...... 

Hell, when someone speeds or breaks a law in there car, do they take all of our license away????? Problem is that works well for police in ohio because theres SO DAMN MANY OF THEM and they pay there checks with tickets......

Be hard for a Fish and game boat to just sit around waiting on someone to break the rules at the dam....... And lets face it, for the most part those guys arent going to get out in the cold like us crazy a$$es to catch fish in the winter!!! LOL

Ive not heard From the fella from west virginia which he said he would get ahold of me by now but Im gonna give it a few more days..... If not by weeks end I will call him back along with hopefully all of you that are concerned....... LOL


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## C J Hughes

They are getting ready to take your guns away because of a few ! We all pay for the stupid or mental in everything in life . They( lock people )don't have the time to mess around with people who don't want to play by the rules . How would any of us feel if everytime you try to do your job you had to stop and tell someone to move their car their boat their person how long before you would want to put a stop to whatever they were doing .Coal has to get to the power plants. That is what the locks were built for in 1956 not to provide us a place to fish . The last time this happen it only lasted that year . When they blow the horn MOVE how hard is that to understand .


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## I Fish

C J Hughes said:


> They are getting ready to take your guns away because of a few !


This is a whole different subject, but IMO, the actions of the few are only being trumpeted to effect the emotional side of those who otherwise would hold no opinion on the subject. It's only to pull those setting on the fence to the gun ban side. 



C J Hughes said:


> How would any of us feel if everytime you try to do your job you had to stop and tell someone to move their car their boat their person how long before you would want to put a stop to whatever they were doing ..


Like a semi driver?



C J Hughes said:


> That is what the locks were built for in 1956 not to provide us a place to fish . The last time this happen it only lasted that year . When they blow the horn MOVE how hard is that to understand .


Yes, but in so doing they limited access to our natural resource, not theirs. I read an old article once about the various DNR's insisting that, as part of the permit agreements, they provide fishing access, or, not build the dams. Now, how much leverage a state DNR had at that time, I don't know, but, this was the agreement according to the article. I think it was in an old Fur-Fish-and Game.

Knowing to move at the sound of a horn isn't hard, but, neither is reading a speed limit sign. This is similar to the police saying that since some people can't fllow the law and choose to speed, we are not going to punish them individually, we are just going to say nobody can drive. I understand a LE boat can't be there all of the time, but they have binoculars, spotting scopes, and pick-up trucks. There is no reason they can't set on the opposite shore once in a while writing down the offenders boat numbers, and, issuing tickets as needed. To not do that is like saying the highway patrol will not use radar, or, even patrol. They are just going to close the roads instead. You see why it doesn't make sense?


----------



## catcrazed

C J Hughes said:


> They are getting ready to take your guns away because of a few ! We all pay for the stupid or mental in everything in life . They( lock people )don't have the time to mess around with people who don't want to play by the rules . How would any of us feel if everytime you try to do your job you had to stop and tell someone to move their car their boat their person how long before you would want to put a stop to whatever they were doing .Coal has to get to the power plants. That is what the locks were built for in 1956 not to provide us a place to fish . The last time this happen it only lasted that year . When they blow the horn MOVE how hard is that to understand .


Wow....... i couldnt DISAGREE more........... every job has its snags bud....... and they DEFINITELY didnt have this problem every time they turned around..... i own a landscape company and if its not snowing in the winter, im fishing and i fish meldahl way more than most!!!!! AND I CAN PROMISE YOU this is not something they dealt with as much as u think....... that is OUR RIVER, not the dams river.... if they have to run someone off that is breaking rules then do it!!!!! But dont punish us all...........


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## catcrazed

I fish, you hit the nail on the head.... and anyone who doesnt understand that line of sight must be blind..........


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## C J Hughes

It sure is going to make it tough to catch a state record blue this winter without access to the dam even this summer maybe off to fishing . The fish stack up , blues , flathead . The only chance I see of pushing the issue is IF they are still allowing the guys who set nets for the spoonbill up near the KY side of the dam . Big Money in netting spoonbill, if they are still allowed to set nets up by the dam then everyone should be able to fish . Easy enough to find out just watch a couple of days for them to run their nets .
It sucks but it is their dam not ours . Semi drivers LOL I always feel I am in their way so I just move faster when they blow their horn .
The blues sure have been stacked up at the mouths of the creeks this winter, just when you think the commercial guys have got all of the big ones .


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## lil goose

Trophy Hunter, Let us know if the army corps. negotiate at all. They have changed the restriced area at new cumberland as well and i am curious if they will even listen to us fishermen. Thanks Goose


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## fallen513

Trophy Hunter said:


> fallen513, "Restricted area, shipping channel, and lock approach" are all defined in § 207.300 and apply to the regulations in specific ways. I've been trained to interpret the law at the University of Cincinnati and would be happy to bring you up to speed. Where's the support for your assertions?



I went to the internet school of learnin' laws and things. 

Let's see, how about the very first thing we come to:

(a) *Authority of lockmasters*(1) Locks staffed with Government personnel. The provisions of this paragraph apply to all waterways in this section except for Cordell Hull Lock located at Mile 313.5 on the Cumberland River in Tennessee. *The lockmaster shall be charged with the immediate control and management of the lock, and of the area set aside as the lock area, including the lock approach channels.* He/she shall see that all laws, rules, and regulations for the use of the lock and lock area are duly complied with, to which end he/she is authorized to give all necessary orders and directions in accordance therewith, both to employees of the government and to any and every person within the limits of the lock and lock area, whether navigating the lock or not. *No one shall cause any movement of any vessel, boat, or other floating thing in the lock or approaches except by or under the direction of the lockmaster or his/her assistants. *


(h) Stations while awaiting a lockage. Vessels awaiting their turn to lock *shall remain sufficiently clear of the structure to allow unobstructed departure for the vessel leaving the lock.* However, to the extent practicable under the prevailing conditions, vessels and tows shall position themselves so as to minimize approach time when signaled to do so.
(i) Stations while awaiting access through navigable pass. When navigable dams are up or are in the process of being raised or lowered, vessels desiring to use the pass *shall wait outside the limits of the approach points unless authorized otherwise by the lockmaster.*

*(s) Restricted areas at locks and dams. All waters immediately above and below each dam, as posted by the respective District Engineers, are hereby designated as restricted areas. No vessel or other floating craft shall enter any such restricted area at any time. The limits of the restricted areas at each dam will be determined by the responsible District Engineer and market by signs and/or flashing red lights installed in conspicuous and appropriate places.*


Estate of James E. Gemp; Daniel C. Strawhecker and
Sandra R. Sheridan, Plaintiffs-Appellants,
v.
UNITED STATES of America, Defendant-Appellee.
No. 81-3288.
United States Court of Appeals,
Sixth Circuit.

Argued May 3, 1982.
Decided Aug. 4, 1982.



> Although once an area around a dam has been designated as a restricted area, warnings must be posted, we hold that the initial decision whether to post is discretionary with the District Engineers and is not subject to review under the Suits in Admiralty Act. See Bearce v. United States, 614 F.2d 556, 559-61 (7 Cir.), cert. denied, 449 U.S. 837 (1980); Gercey v. United States, 540 F.2d 536, 538-39 (1 Cir.), cert. denied, 430 U.S. 954 (1977). Since *the regulation allows the District Engineers to determine the limits of any restricted areas*, it follows that it is within their discretion not to designate any restricted areas for purposes of applying this regulation. Indeed, the Corps did designate an area 2000 feet below and 1400 feet above the Meldahl Dam as a danger zone which was so marked on navigational charts. *We hold that the Corps correctly interpreted the regulation to mean that additional restrictions were discretionary.*


https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/684/684.F2d.404.81-3288.html





Perhaps you can still get your money back.


The district engineer will kick you & your professor's ass in court. 

Best of luck!


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## fallen513

All that said, please keep in mind that I am on the side of anglers. I don't care how many morons drown or get ran over by barges.

Unfortunately, that ain't the way the law works (no matter where you learnt it). The fishermen were warned many times (hundreds? thousands?) 


Now, thanks to those few who had to get in one last cast, it is the _duty of the corp_ to protect said idiots. 


If they _neglect their duty_, it's called *negligence*. 

This has already been hashed out, many times over. 



PM me for address to send check. 


(Edit:  Kudos on your effort. While you may not get a ticket overturned, perhaps your motions will influence the lockmaster to change his(her) mind... who knows. That would be the best case scenario for all involved.... until somebody blocks the approach again.)


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## Matulemj

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## burt

Matulemj said:


> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


If this is something to stir things up or be funny I don't think you need to be posting here. Some of us are taking what's going on at Meldahl serious.


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## C J Hughes

I fish , I don't care who you write or call it isn't going to happen . All the special people that think they are above it all is the reason . How can you compare it to a speeding ticket or someone driving to slow in the fast lane .So the locks has to have someone stand around writing boat numbers down so you can fish , I don't think so .Try and stop a tug with 20 barges loaded with coal it is alittle bit tougher than a semi truck then try to get it moving again . You will not be fishing the locks until the LOCKMASTER says you can . I am starting to think you may be one of those special people .


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## Daveo76

You guys must have had a really good lockmaster. These restrictions have been going at all the other dams for a long time. A few boaters just gave them what they needed to enforce it. I admire the enthusiam and research some of you have put in.
Matulemj, these folks are dead serious about what is going on. Input like yours isn't needed. Seth (Fallen513 ) has done his research for the good of the other fisherman as has Trophy Hunter and CJ the rest. Fallen has even made a few trips upriver to Greenup dam to fish with me just to see how it's going to be fishing at a Hydro as I'm sure some of the others have tried Markland or somewhere. So please don't minimalize the efforts of a few dedicated , truely honest sportsmen. These men are passionate in their efforts and I for one applaud them.


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## C J Hughes

Dave did you fish below Greenup when there were huge boulders everywhere ? What a place to fish it was then . You could drop a big creek chub behind one of those rocks in the eddy and never know what the heck was going to hit .


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## Daveo76

C J Hughes said:


> Dave did you fish below Greenup when there were huge boulders everywhere ? What a place to fish it was then . You could drop a big creek chub behind one of those rocks in the eddy and never know what the heck was going to hit .


 I admit it, I've been fishing there since the mid 70's, tells how old I am!! The old days when all you needed was a 4" yellow twister to catch Saugers, or you could swing out on the dam facing and catch Crappies all day. Hydro came in 82 and put all that behind us but we learned to deal with it. The fish didn't go anywhere, just an adjustment to find them. The biggest danger was slipping on the rocks, but now we have a stairway. At the most, you spent $4 or 5 and got all the twisters and leadheads you needed. Caught a big White Perch(Sheephead) you were the king!! Thanks for the memories CJ


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## I Fish

C J Hughes said:


> I fish , I don't care who you write or call it isn't going to happen . All the special people that think they are above it all is the reason . How can you compare it to a speeding ticket or someone driving to slow in the fast lane .So the locks has to have someone stand around writing boat numbers down so you can fish , I don't think so .Try and stop a tug with 20 barges loaded with coal it is alittle bit tougher than a semi truck then try to get it moving again . You will not be fishing the locks until the LOCKMASTER says you can . I am starting to think you may be one of those special people .


Yes, it is just like a speeding ticket, or at least it should be. This is my point, why were they not willing to ticket the offenders then, but yet, they will ticket/punish anyone now. With as many laws as we have today, I'm sure there is one on the books somewhere that could be contrived enough about obstructing a wasterway, or something to that affect, if not, they could make one. You know how you slow down in a town that is a known speed trap? Sure, it's a speed trap, but the important thing is, you DO slow down. This should have been the same way. If, back in the day, someone would have been patrolling this area, and, writing tickets to those that needed it, soon everybody would know you don't make the barges/lockmasters wait. If you thought that getting that one last cast would potentially cost you $100, you probably wouldn't take it, just like knowing 5mph over the limit is gonna cost you at the speed trap. Even though you're in a hurry, you still obey the law.


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## I Fish

C J Hughes said:


> I fish , I don't care who you write or call it isn't going to happen . All the special people that think they are above it all is the reason . How can you compare it to a speeding ticket or someone driving to slow in the fast lane .So the locks has to have someone stand around writing boat numbers down so you can fish , I don't think so .Try and stop a tug with 20 barges loaded with coal it is alittle bit tougher than a semi truck then try to get it moving again . You will not be fishing the locks until the LOCKMASTER says you can . I am starting to think you may be one of those special people .


Yes, it is just like a speeding ticket, or at least it should be. This is my point, why were they not willing to ticket the offenders then, but yet, they will ticket/punish anyone now. With as many laws as we have today, I'm sure there is one on the books somewhere that could be contrived enough about obstructing a wasterway, or something to that affect, if not, they could make one. You know how you slow down in a town that is a known speed trap? Sure, it's a speed trap, but the important thing is, you DO slow down. This should have been the same way. If, back in the day, someone would have been patrolling this area, and, writing tickets to those that needed it, soon everybody would know you don't make the barges/lockmasters wait. If you thought that getting that one last cast would potentially cost you $100, you probably wouldn't take it, just like knowing 5mph over the limit is gonna cost you at the speed trap. Even though you're in a hurry, you still obey the law.



C J Hughes said:


> I am starting to think you may be one of those special people .


Thanks. I needed a little boost. Aren't those rubber worms delicious?


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## Matulemj

burt said:


> If this is something to stir things up or be funny I don't think you need to be posting here. Some of us are taking what's going on at Meldahl serious.


Ah, yes. I forgot about the 7th commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Speaketh of Meldahl in a Derogatory Way." My sincere apologies. It's all in good fun, man! 





I Fish said:


> Yes, it is just like a speeding ticket, or at least it should be. This is my point, why were they not willing to ticket the offenders then, but yet, they will ticket/punish anyone now. With as many laws as we have today, I'm sure there is one on the books somewhere that could be contrived enough about obstructing a wasterway, or something to that affect, if not, they could make one. You know how you slow down in a town that is a known speed trap? Sure, it's a speed trap, but the important thing is, you DO slow down. This should have been the same way. If, back in the day, someone would have been patrolling this area, and, writing tickets to those that needed it, soon everybody would know you don't make the barges/lockmasters wait. If you thought that getting that one last cast would potentially cost you $100, you probably wouldn't take it, just like knowing 5mph over the limit is gonna cost you at the speed trap. Even though you're in a hurry, you still obey the law.



Except that it could be considered trespassing. That's a poor analogy because drivers are not trespassing in these villages by driving through them. Speaking with a few of my Clermont County S/O friends, they are going to start nipping the issue in the butt. Technically, it's not their jurisdiction, it's the adjacent KY county's. 

The fact that people were allowed to fish there back in the day does not make it okay now. The locks are covering their butt's. If some knucklehead got hurt out there by a passing barge, in this day and age that's a lawsuit waiting to happen, even though they shouldn't have been there in the first place. 

Here's a good example of this: http://www.landreport.com/2008/04/what-you-need-to-know-about-landowner-liability/

The locks are secured for your safety, and no amount of protest is going to change it. They do not care about your fishing. I hate to be so blunt, but that's just the way it is. 

I think Fallen513 pretty much covered the issue, which is why I'm not understanding what's up for debate still? There are tons of other spots on the Ohio river that are great for Hybrid and Sauger fishing, you just have to find them. Trust me, I wish I could fish there too, it's like a safe haven for monster fish. However, we can't. Game over.


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## burt

There's no apologies needed, I just hate and fear giving up some where I have fished since I was a little boy. I have a lot of great memories with fishing with friends and family on the Ohio River. I literally grew up probably 200 yards from the river and on my summer breaks when I was in school and old enough, me and a couple of friends would literally fish every morning if we could. This for me is away of life for me. I have prolonged a days fishing when coming in to the ramp one time after having a good day fishing and saw a person and there son fishing and I asked them if they were doing any good and they said no. I then envited them on my boat and the guy said are you serious and I said yes, I told him I could put him and the little one on some fish and I have a life jacket he can use. Luckily enough the fish were still where I was fishing and the little one and dad got a taste of hybrid fishing as well as some other fish that were there. If I can help anyone with in reason I will or would. I think anyone with an opinion should post, like when fallen has posted what he has found it is a learning experiance for all of us. I am not a bad person and seem to get along with most folks I meet. Maybee change is here but I hope things can get better from here on out. To all out there that takes me the wrong way Sorry but I love to fish and seem to take it serious.


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## Matulemj

burt said:


> There's no apologies needed, I just hate and fear giving up some where I have fished since I was a little boy. I have a lot of great memories with fishing with friends and family on the Ohio River. I literally grew up probably 200 yards from the river and on my summer breaks when I was in school and old enough, me and a couple of friends would literally fish every morning if we could. This for me is away of life for me. I have prolonged a days fishing when coming in to the ramp one time after having a good day fishing and saw a person and there son fishing and I asked them if they were doing any good and they said no. I then envited them on my boat and the guy said are you serious and I said yes, I told him I could put him and the little one on some fish and I have a life jacket he can use. Luckily enough the fish were still where I was fishing and the little one and dad got a taste of hybrid fishing as well as some other fish that were there. If I can help anyone with in reason I will or would. I think anyone with an opinion should post, like when fallen has posted what he has found it is a learning experiance for all of us. I am not a bad person and seem to get along with most folks I meet. Maybee change is here but I hope things can get better from here on out. To all out there that takes me the wrong way Sorry but I love to fish and seem to take it serious.




Understood. It does suck. Trust me, I have been trying to figure out ways to get my lure to the lock without trespassing, coming up with crazy ideas with balloons and other madness. Needless to say, it's not looking promising! All we can do is roll with the punches and move forward. There are other great spots just around the corner from it.


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## co-angler

Matulemj said:


> There are other great spots just around the corner from it.


I told you not to run your mouth on here about my favorite spot on the Ohio.
Two weeks later, there you go. 
Dammit man. You drinkin again?


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## Matulemj

co-angler said:


> I told you not to run your mouth on here about my favorite spot on the Ohio.
> Two weeks later, there you go.
> Dammit man. You drinkin again?


When aren't I drinking, is a more appropriate question 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## catcrazed

Matulemj said:


> I think Fallen513 pretty much covered the issue, which is why I'm not understanding what's up for debate still? There are tons of other spots on the Ohio river that are great for Hybrid and Sauger fishing, you just have to find them. Trust me, I wish I could fish there too, it's like a safe haven for monster fish. However, we can't. Game over.


If you go back and read my posts, Im not questioning that we should still be allowed to enter the locks to fish in them. The signs are posted that say no fishing in lock approach and there are buoys stating how far you can go up towards the dam. THATS FINE! BUT!!!! There saying that we cannot fish from the long wall down to bear creek. There is no signage that states that nor are there any buoys stating so. I can understand them enforcing the rules there but there taking it further than the "off limits" fishing area. Thats where my issue is.

There saying that whole bank is the "approach". well son of uh bi#%h so is the whole area down river all the way down to the next dam in louisville!!! That whole stretch is a barge approach so lets just let the lock master close all that off to. Your saying whatever they say goes but there is limits on what they can enforce........ I called THERE BOSS!!!! In huntington west virginia and he had me pull up a 3d over head view of the dam. I simply asked him (THERE BOSS BY THE WAY) EXACTLY WHAT is off limits to fisherman. He said and I quote (draw a line from the ohio to ky side of the river at the end of the lock wall.... END OF STORY AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED!!!! That pretty much told me that those ass holes were on a power trip and telling us we couldnt fish what another 1/4 mile of river that we are actually allowed to fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

THERE WHERE MY DEBATE IS BUD!!!! I could give a flying crap about getting into the lock approaches but from the end of the lock wall down river they shouldnt be able to tell us one way or the other we cant fish.....


I could care less what they say, as long as im down stream of the signs and buoys they can tell me to leave all they want im gonna tell them to call the caost guard or odnr....... With your logic of thinking in your posts the lock master should be able to tell us we cant fish in new richmond because we may get in the way of barges. There is a certain amount of power the lockmaster has and it is limited.......... If a barge is coming I will move if theres not and they tell me to leave. Well, ME NO SPEAKE ENGLESS....... Im not moving until im forced to. Hell I was told by the HEAD OF OPERATIONS OVER MELDAHL DAM that the restricted areas were only to the end of the lock wall SO I WONT FISH THERE but other than that Im fishing!!!


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## I Fish

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression we were still in America, surrounded by Americans. I don't quite understand how, or why, anybody believes that we should all just roll up in our blankets and go back to sleep, and accept the shaft we are being given. The Corps of Engineers have essentially taken our tax dollars, our property, that, we as taxpayers own, and said go stick it. THEY decide who gets to use it. It's not like this is a top secret military research facility. There are risks involved with nearly every activity we engage in, and, this is no different. What's next? If nobody challenges this, they are they going to say "hey, that was easy. Let's stop the shore access too. That will eliminate all "our" liability." Maybe the Dept of Interior should stop trout anglers as they stand in ice cold water, wearing chest waders, standing on all those slippery rocks. People die from hypothermia, you know? It's called inherent risk. We all face it everyday. Just because somebody sued McDonalds because their coffe was hot, di they stop selling coffee?

A speeding ticket is a perfect analogy. The people doing the wrong, just like a speeder should have been punished. They too, were not trespassing at the time, just like a speeder. They were allowed to be there, just not doing what they were. How is this any different than the town with a speed trap never stopping people, never writing tickets, but, one day just closing the road through town, because a few drivers were speeding?

I read earlier (in another thread, where they are fighting the Corp on down in Ky and Tenn) that the Corps admitted to lying, and inflating casualties. That right there is enough to give me pause. I mean, here's a government agency telling us we can't do something because it's just too dangerous, then, later saying it's not as dangerous as we said, but, you still can't do it. We should allow them to lie to us? What do you suppose happens when we lie to them?

I will stand up. I will help fight, and I will stand with anybody that wants to. I guess the rest of you should just go back to bed, and roll up in your blankets. If this gets changed, feel free to come on down and enjoy it with everybody else, and try not to think about the fact that you did nothing to help, and moreover, attempted to discredit and discourage those that did. Oh yea, just don't use electric blankets, as I heard the Housing Authority thinks they MIGHT be dangerous.


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## catcrazed

I Fish said:


> I'm sorry, but I was under the impression we were still in America, surrounded by Americans. I don't quite understand how, or why, anybody believes that we should all just roll up in our blankets and go back to sleep, and accept the shaft we are being given. The Corps of Engineers have essentially taken our tax dollars, our property, that, we as taxpayers own, and said go stick it. THEY decide who gets to use it. It's not like this is a top secret military research facility. There are risks involved with nearly every activity we engage in, and, this is no different. What's next? If nobody challenges this, they are they going to say "hey, that was easy. Let's stop the shore access too. That will eliminate all "our" liability." Maybe the Dept of Interior should stop trout anglers as they stand in ice cold water, wearing chest waders, standing on all those slippery rocks. People die from hypothermia, you know? It's called inherent risk. We all face it everyday. Just because somebody sued McDonalds because their coffe was hot, di they stop selling coffee?
> 
> A speeding ticket is a perfect analogy. The people doing the wrong, just like a speeder should have been punished. They too, were not trespassing at the time, just like a speeder. They were allowed to be there, just not doing what they were. How is this any different than the town with a speed trap never stopping people, never writing tickets, but, one day just closing the road through town, because a few drivers were speeding?
> 
> I read earlier (in another thread, where they are fighting the Corp on down in Ky and Tenn) that the Corps admitted to lying, and inflating casualties. That right there is enough to give me pause. I mean, here's a government agency telling us we can't do something because it's just too dangerous, then, later saying it's not as dangerous as we said, but, you still can't do it. We should allow them to lie to us? What do you suppose happens when we lie to them?
> 
> I will stand up. I will help fight, and I will stand with anybody that wants to. I guess the rest of you should just go back to bed, and roll up in your blankets. If this gets changed, feel free to come on down and enjoy it with everybody else, and try not to think about the fact that you did nothing to help, and moreover, attempted to discredit and discourage those that did. Oh yea, just don't use electric blankets, as I heard the Housing Authority thinks they MIGHT be dangerous.


BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU AND I SEE EYE TO EYE FOR SURE! Anything fun is dangerous but its not illegal. Nascar is dangerous, driving is dangerous, hell sex is dangerous these days.............. lets just let someone tell us we cant do any of that next.......... That is OUR RIVER, not the corps river. I understand they can restrict certain things but when they try to use authority to tell us we cant fish water that we really are allowed to fish?????? F-them bastards........ 

As I said above, those of you that want to pat the back of the lockmaster you need to go help obama take all our gun rights away to.......... There dangerous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heres the way I see it also... If someone isnt getting out of the way, have the employees at the dam snap a pic of the boat not obeying the rules and send it to the odnr......... Punish that person, not all of us!!! I bet you they wouldnt have to take but a few pics per week. Like I said above I Fish there A LOT and they hardly ever had problems with folks not getting out of the way. I personally only seen it be a problem once this year out of about 20 days of fishing so I don't want to hear the pissing from you fellas saying this is a huge problem for the lockmaster and the employees!!!!!!! Its simply not that big of a deal!!! They made it out to be.... Someones panties were in a bunch and it seems to make them feel better to make us suffer........ NOBODY has ever been hit by a barge at meldahl in all the years Ive fished there. I would have heard about it!!!!!!


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## Matulemj

I did not see the part about the restricted area stretching to Bear Creak. That is the first I've heard. Though, I might ask, if there are no restricted signs or buoys warning people, how can it be enforced? I can't see anyone on the Ohio side enforcing that, though their ability to do so is limited.

Speed limits can be assessed in local counsel meetings. If you make a case that is valid, then they can put into motion to raise the limit. You can't change legislation to trespass into privately owned property. If we are talking about the area from the buoys down to Bear Creek, that's a different story. The lock should not be able to oversee the river that far down. What's to stop them from restricting it to Louisville, as one of you stated.

If we are truly talking about just the area from the buoys downstream to Bear Creek, I will help you fight the issue. However, the restricted space near the dam itself is there for a reason. How about we get the ball rolling and start a petition, if this truly is the case? If this is true, I'll help start it.

Honestly, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I have not heard anybody being cited or yelled at by a lock master for being near Bear Creek. This is more of an issue of people floating along the wall and sticking magnets to the side and not getting out of the way of the barges. 

Let's not make this about gun restriction. That'll bring this down with the quickness.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## I Fish

Matulemj said:


> I did not see the part about the restricted area stretching to Bear Creak. That is the first I've heard. Though, I might ask, if there are no restricted signs or buoys warning people, how can it be enforced? I can't see anyone on the Ohio side enforcing that, though their ability to do so is limited.
> 
> Speed limits can be assessed in local counsel meetings. If you make a case that is valid, then they can put into motion to raise the limit. You can't change legislation to trespass into privately owned property. If we are talking about the area from the buoys down to Bear Creek, that's a different story. The lock should not be able to oversee the river that far down. What's to stop them from restricting it to Louisville, as one of you stated.
> 
> If we are truly talking about just the area from the buoys downstream to Bear Creek, I will help you fight the issue. However, the restricted space near the dam itself is there for a reason. How about we get the ball rolling and start a petition, if this truly is the case? If this is true, I'll help start it.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I have not heard anybody being cited or yelled at by a lock master for being near Bear Creek. This is more of an issue of people floating along the wall and sticking magnets to the side and not getting out of the way of the barges.
> 
> Let's not make this about gun restriction. That'll bring this down with the quickness.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Maybe you should have put down the popcorn and started paying attention earlier? Look, Ok, if you want to say the Corps "owns" the part of the river they feel entitled to restrict, who owns the Corps? We do, meaning we also own the river. How/why can/should it be that, as a government agency, with no elected officials, they have the right to restrict us, period? Where's our representation? IMO, it should be up to the state that has ownership of the river, as in W.Va owns it all along it's border with Ohio, therefore, it should be up to W.Va to decide where we can go, not the Corps. You do realize, since Homeland Security, it is illegal to stop on the water, for any reason, within so many feet of a bridge?

They imposed the 2 nautical miles rule at David Besse nuke plant after 9/11. There were no bouys or markers of any kind. A few buddies of mine were surrounded by 3 coast guard boats, one being a Zodiak with a bow mounted 50cal aimed right at him, while these alleged "criminals" were armed with fishing rods, and one has an extreme case of bad gas. They took all their info and told them if they caught them within the new "off limits" zone again, he would loose his boat, get 10 years in prison, and pay a $10,000 fine. He objected as there were no markings or signage, and they responded it is your responsibility to know the law, and their job to enforce it. IF they decided to issue citations, take it up with the court. Really? My point is, first it's this, then it's that, then, it's something else. Where do we stand and fight, or, do we just keep retreating? This is not supposed to be a communist country, and it seems to be becomming that more each day, but only because we keep letting it.


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## I Fish

I just wanted to add that no amount or type of legislaton/laws/rules, or combination thereof, is ever going to curb or prevent stupid.


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## Matulemj

True. We can't fix stupid.

Start the petition, I'll sign it and share it with as many sportsman as possible.

http://www.change.org/petition


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## I Fish

Matulemj said:


> Start the petition, I'll sign it and share it with as many sportsman as possible.
> 
> http://www.change.org/petition
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


At this point, I feel compelled to await Trophy Hunter, as he has undertaken this. If his research/initiatives prove unfruitful, then we should explore other avenues. If this will help further the cause, then by all means. 

I'm curious to hear from Trophy Hunter what the Sierra Club had to say?


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## Matulemj

It definitely won't hurt. I'll help out in any way that I can.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## C J Hughes

Same $hit different day Still can't fish the locks the can has sunk


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## catcrazed

Matulemj said:


> I did not see the part about the restricted area stretching to Bear Creak. That is the first I've heard. Though, I might ask, if there are no restricted signs or buoys warning people, how can it be enforced? I can't see anyone on the Ohio side enforcing that, though their ability to do so is limited.
> 
> Speed limits can be assessed in local counsel meetings. If you make a case that is valid, then they can put into motion to raise the limit. You can't change legislation to trespass into privately owned property. If we are talking about the area from the buoys down to Bear Creek, that's a different story. The lock should not be able to oversee the river that far down. What's to stop them from restricting it to Louisville, as one of you stated.
> 
> If we are truly talking about just the area from the buoys downstream to Bear Creek, I will help you fight the issue. However, the restricted space near the dam itself is there for a reason. How about we get the ball rolling and start a petition, if this truly is the case? If this is true, I'll help start it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I have not heard anybody being cited or yelled at by a lock master for being near Bear Creek. This is more of an issue of people floating along the wall and sticking magnets to the side and not getting out of the way of the barges.
> 
> Let's not make this about gun restriction. That'll bring this down with the quickness.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Your right, shouldnt havebrought gun control up... my bad, but yes as stated in a previous post i was fishing just downstream of the end of the lockwall along with a few other boats and a guy come down on golf cart and told us that the restricted area started at the arrival point sign on the bank right at bear creek!!!!! I told him it was bs and that pretty much ruins all the fishing on that side if off limits and he said the dam area was here for the barges not us!! Thats garbage and i did leave that day before i really thought about it but not again thats for sure...... this happened to another member on here to....


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## Daveo76

They are navagational dams on the Ohio River used to provide a minimum depth of 9 ft for commercial traffic.


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## co-angler

Matulemj said:


> Let's not make this about gun restriction.


Wait a minute..... The lock master wants to control my guns?
Petition? Sign me up!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## catcrazed

*Alright folks heres where we stand!!!!!!!!!!!!*


I just got off the phone with a ranger of 25 years from the west virginia office. I might add that he was good enough and took over an hour of his time just on the phone with me!!!!!!

He talked to me early this morning, i pointed him in the direction of this thread. He took the initiative to jump right on the issue! He let me know that he works for corps of engineers but also wanted to find the REASONABLE SOLUTION to this issue. 

He explained simply that there was a lack of enforcement at meldahl dam and that we were given a break on getting to fish up in the lock approaches which I do in fact agree with him 100%. He also said that weather we like it or not the lock master does in fact have the authority to tell us we cannot fish ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE ARRIVAL POINT although he did believe that was not REASONABLE so he took the time to make the negotiation with meldahl that the area from the long lock wall down river IS FISHABLE as of right now per the agreement made between the huntington and meldahl!!!!!

With this being said, THIS WILL BE RE-EVALUATED IF WE DO NOT USE COMMON SENSE and move when we see a barge coming!!!!! He suggested that we all need to pull together as fisherman and be sure that everyone is obeying there request or WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FISH THERE EITHER, and as far as im concerned if they take that stretch of the ohio side down to bear creek away from us we may as well not even try because as most of you know that ky side has a TON of current and is unfishable for the most part............ 

Listen I know that there are several of us on here that are still upset that we will not be able to fish UP IN THE LOCK but he said it best. It was something we should all be fortunate to have experienced in the past but now that is going to be enforced FOR SURE FROM HERE ON OUT!!! 

I will end with this. The agreement between huntington and our lock master was just that. AN AGREEMENT! Out lock master does have the authority to tell us not to fish (according to the folks in huntington which i have no reason to doubt) all the way to bear creek but is willing to TRY THIS! 

he even went into how he believed that there would be those hard headed folks that wouldnt want to listen to others but we need to try to do what we can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Trophy hunter, if you would like to go forward with the sierra club that is great and I see no problem with it but for now Im going to be happy with what they have worked out for us. Atleast we have an area we can fish now!!!! So, just draw a line from the ky side to ohio side where the end of the lock wall is.... from that point to the walls we CANNOT FISH, from that line down river, WE CAN fish, but we have to use our heads to keep this!!1 

The folks from huntington will be keeping an eye on this thread along with others that pertain to dam fishing so show them some support for doing what they have for us thus far.!!!!!!!!


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## burt

Thanks C.C. least we can maybe hold on to a little something.


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## 1bowhntr

something is better than nothing i would rather fish what they will allow us than not being able to fish there at all if we can keep this and show the lockmastrer and the guys at hunington that we are all not idiots there might be a chance that they will slowly start letting us fish inside the wall again but just keep an eye out for the one or two idiots that could screw this up for good thanks for everything that you have done catcrazed and trophyhunter.


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## catcrazed

montagc said:


> Thanks catcrazed. I hope that all goes well from here on out.
> 
> Kinda on topic, has anyone been asked to leave for fishing the the short section of wall on the gate side? Seems like you could from the charts.


I may not be following you correctly but im thinking you are talking about the short wall up in the lock where the small boats would sit to lock through???? 

We wouldnt be allowed to go up in past the end of the long lock wall unless you are wanting to lock through to get up river. Other than that we cannot be up in that area what so ever.................. Lets say you are a worker standing up on the very end of the LONG lock wall facing down river and you look straight to your left to the ky side then you turn your head and look to your right to the ohio side.... that is the line you cannot cross............................

I know that some of us may in fact make a fellow angler angry at us for telling them what to do but it is our duty now especially if you see someone going past that point to stop and educate them. We may very well get one of those fisherman that have that f-you attitude but we can only do what we can do!!!! I really do hope this establishes a friendship or atleast an understanding between us and the folks up on the dam because if they see we as fisherman are trying to make an attempt to help them they will surely see that as a good thing! I know were irritated at whats went down but hey they have compromised for us as of now. Lets run with what weve got for now atleast and see what happens!


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## catcrazed

montagc said:


> No, I meant outside the lock on the long wall, at least past the 800 foot mark on the main river. Look at my pics above. It looks like the restricted zone does not go all the way to the end of the wall. I haven't been up there in a boat in a while, at least since they began the hydro project. I used to fish off the overflow wall on the KY side. Good bass spot on the upstream side, or ate least it was.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Oh okay I gotcha, well heres the deal on that...... I didnt really get into specifics on that side of the wall but here goes. They have moved the buoys waaaaay out basically out to the end of the wall but this was not due to the issues from this year but more the issues of the ky side now being a hydro project now. From what I was told today by the officer that area will also be re-evaluated and the buoys in the future MAY get moved back to where they used to be but could also stay right where they are now.......... That will be re-evaluated later down the road after the project is completed....... 

I guess I don't have a straight answer for you though Ive not seen anyone get ran off from that area but also dont see many ppl try there. I used to catfish right there years ago.... Like I said just stay downstream of the buoy line and if im remembering correctly the buoys are now moved out to the end of the wall. I could be wrong but thats what I remember from last trip........


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## Trophy Hunter

For those offering me thanks, catcrazed takes all the credit. He won this victory alone.

*A FEW THINGS*
Fishing downriver from the line extrapolated from the restricted zone to the Ohio side is a compromise, a good one, for everyone concerned. Once inside the lock walls, it becomes questionable, not just from interpreting the law, but from common sense. Laws should make sense and this compromise makes sense. It's refreshing to see an outcome like this. Everybody wins. 

fallen513, me going to Court against the USACE would be like David and Goliath. I would have to release the stone at just the right moment and smite the mighty Corps upon the head. You raise some valid points. 

*disclaimer* - @USACE: that's just a battle rhetoric, Biblical reference. 

Someone posted a dated navigation map of the restricted area before it was changed. Notice how it was farther up the inside of the lock wall, and tapered 45 degrees toward the KY rip-rap. That's the next agenda. We want to restore that layout sometime in the near future. 

Thanks to all who have taken an interest. We're fortunate to have a government agency receptive to our needs. Let's follow the rules, kindly persuade those who don't, and let go if they don't listen. 

I'll keep an eye on this forum. Let me know what's going on down there.

Sierra Club hasn't responded yet. I don't think it's time to consult them. Enjoy the sauger run.

Best Regards,

TH


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## catcrazed

Trophy Hunter said:


> For those offering me thanks, catcrazed takes all the credit. He won this victory alone.
> 
> *A FEW THINGS*
> Fishing downriver from the line extrapolated from the restricted zone to the Ohio side is a compromise, a good one, for everyone concerned. Once inside the lock walls, it becomes questionable, not just from interpreting the law, but from common sense. Laws should make sense and this compromise makes sense. It's refreshing to see an outcome like this. Everybody wins.
> 
> fallen513, me going to Court against the USACE would be like David and Goliath. I would have to release the stone at just the right moment and smite the mighty Corps upon the head. You raise some valid points.
> 
> *disclaimer* - @USACE: that's just a battle rhetoric, Biblical reference.
> 
> Someone posted a dated navigation map of the restricted area before it was changed. Notice how it was farther up the inside of the lock wall, and tapered 45 degrees toward the KY rip-rap. That's the next agenda. We want to restore that layout sometime in the near future.
> 
> Thanks to all who have taken an interest. We're fortunate to have a government agency receptive to our needs. Let's follow the rules, kindly persuade those who don't, and let go if they don't listen.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on this forum. Let me know what's going on down there.
> 
> Sierra Club hasn't responded yet. I don't think it's time to consult them. Enjoy the sauger run.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> TH


I wouldnt say that!!! Everyone that posted good gave me ammo on this fight!!! You all have to remember something. The fella that took the time to fight for us READ THIS ENTIRE THREAD!! Several made VERY GOOD POINTS........ Trust me trophy hunter he mentioned your name specifically over the phone stating that you had brought up good points.

We all did this with the power of the internet and someone working for the government that actually gave a crap about us little guys. I wish that everyone would do there jobs the way the fella did that helped us. Who would have thunk he would get something solved so quickly and REASONABLY!!! Im glad I called.... Most times your peeing into a 50mph wind trying to get something done like this. 

Lets just all do our part and preserve what we have left down there. Without that area we may as well not sauger fish at meldahl period!!

As for what T-hunter brought about with the buoy line. The officer made it very clear to me that line would be re-evaluated after everything is up and running and he is personally going to have something to do with this and I have faith that he and all involved will try and make a safe but REASONABLE decision.......

Thanks all and good fishing. Im going to head that way beginning of next week hopefully!!!!


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## larryfish

First off, thanks to Trophy Hunter and Catcrazed for all their hard work! Kudos fellas!

Here is your answer in regards to how close you can fish to the dam from the long wall to the KY side, straight from the 2012 KY fishing and boating guide. Page 4 to be exact.

http://fw.ky.gov/pdf/2012fishingandboatingguide.pdf

This is a new regulation added in 2012. As long as you wear a PFD, you are allowed within 150'. I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure the bouys are diamond bouys and NOT diamond bouys with the red X. UNLESS, the diamond bouys have been swapped out since my last trip down to Meldahl?

BOATING
&#8226; Below locks and dams on U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers waterways and
the Kentucky River, boat occupants
must wear a personal floatation
device (lifejacket) upstream of danger
signs and open-diamond buoys or
within 150 feet of the downstream
lock and dam wall.


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## C J Hughes

Not only is the lock master the final word on the locks he is also the final word on any of the boat ramps that are leased from the A C E. White oak , Brush Creek are just 2 of many on the ohio river . Good job Catcraz


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## ARReflections

This has been an interesting read and a reasonable outcome. Essentially it is the idiots or selfish hard heads that ruined it for us and could ruin it for us in the future. 

One of the best ways to keep order within the ranks is to apply pressure from within the ranks. In this case, I suggest if someone sees some idiot ruining it for the rest of us, a nice photo of the offending idiot would be in order and then post it on this site. Most likely the idiot would either see it on this site or someone on this site would know this idiot and then tell reported idiot. To be labeled the idiot by your fellow sportmen would carry more weight than a yelling from the bullhorn by the lock master. No one wants to be the village idiot...unless you are an idiot....whoops...

Does this sound idiotic?


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## wildman

It would be nice if a pic was posted or a diagram stating or showing where one can fish.. I have only been down there a handfull of times. pre-hydro work. Ignorant or green is what I am but I do plan on heading down in the near future. I just don't want my pic posted on here for being the "idiot" LOL
Even tho I do ask question while I am down there.

Any help would be nice.. When I did fish I fished along the locks and used a magnet to stay on the wall... Is that still an option?


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## fallen513

Unfortunately, it is not. That is the "lock wall". 


That being said, I do believe in time privileges will be restored. I certainly hope so.


As posted here and elsewhere, there is enough pressure from the public down south to bring these types of issues to a state and federal level. If it passes down south, there will be at least some precedent which can be used as ammunition for the fight up here.


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## larryfish

I was down at Meldahl on Sunday 2/24 and one of the guys I talked to said the boat fisherman were allowed upstream of the long wall on Saturday, but no boat fisherman were allowed on Sunday. I am wondering if it depends on the amount of barge traffic? There was quite a bit on Sunday.

Eitherway, I do believe mooring to the lock walls is no longer an option even if we are allowed in the lock area.


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## ARReflections

The efforts by a few on this thread translated into real action and results. Do you think it to be a good idea for the good folks at Ohio Game Fish Forum to create a separate area for current legislation / regulation or other topics that could have an impact on our beloved sport? Honestly, I do not read the Ohio River Fishing Reports as often as I do for Southwest but I would probably be more apt to check out a section for current issues that affect fishing here in OH.

Just a thought but would be a great place for those interested in such topics. After all, we have Vermillion Hawg Fest so why not?!


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## zack2345

Can any one tell me if fishing from the ohio side of maldahl is an option right now with the water being up so high


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## catcrazed

larryfish said:


> I was down at Meldahl on Sunday 2/24 and one of the guys I talked to said the boat fisherman were allowed upstream of the long wall on Saturday, but no boat fisherman were allowed on Sunday. I am wondering if it depends on the amount of barge traffic? There was quite a bit on Sunday.
> 
> Eitherway, I do believe mooring to the lock walls is no longer an option even if we are allowed in the lock area.


No id say its just they were lucky saturday!!!!!! The head of operations in west virginiq said that the lockmaster would definetly be holding this rule seriously and he would be sure of it.... he said he wants no more grey area and the lack of the lockmaster not holding true to the rules of not letting boats in the approach is what has caused this problem in the first place and they will be enforcing it.....

Were there any fish caught whileu were there??


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## wildman

So setting up at the wall is out... Bummer..

I guess the fishermen has to just set up out side of the dam area.. It has been a few years since I have been down there. All I know is setting up along the wall or between the wall and the shore.. This is for sauger.. 

What do you guys recommend on how to fish for saugers now just out side the wall?


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## larryfish

There were fish being caught, but there was a lot barge traffic from mid morning on.

I like to slip the current and vertical jig. You can cover water and find pods of fish. I don't anchor.


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## wildman

My problem is that I have a 20 foot deep V. It catches the current and wind, I would be drifting at 20MPH.. Ha ha ha..

I have another question Would you go on the river with a trolling motor on this boat.. It is a water skeeter Hunter Fisher II.. I love it but I am wounderying about the safty.. It is flat and stabile, and should never flip like a canoe.. I would think that it would be pretty sweet to fish down there..


What do you thing??

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/water-skeeter-hunter-fisher-ii-pontoon-boat~p~1606g/


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## wildman

I just know that they use this style of boat on the rapids. Then there is paddle fest where there is a ton of canoes on the river with no problems.

I have an anchor that I use when on the small river. 

I get that the wind and curent will push me around. But I would think the trolling motor should be able to get me to a spot set anchor fish then head out..

Do you guy's think that it would be that unsafe? The boat itself is the size 7 ft long 4.5 ft wide but and sits flat on the water..

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/wat...-boat~p~1606g/


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## wildman

Well that stinks... even though I new the answer. I just didn't want to except it. LOL 

I may take it down to a an easy in and out spot to just try it out.. I am sure that on windy ruff days it would be terrible. Around the lock, I am sure would be a bad idea. I will re-post how it went in a week when I get it out. If I survive...


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## wildman

I get you on all your point's.. I will just have to get off my couch and give it a try. I mean put in at a safe spot. See how it does. Try it in windy conditions which this time of year should be easy.. 

I know when I have it on a lake I was pretty suprised at how well it pushes the boat I actually leave a wake. The boat, add a battery, me, and some gear we are looking at 300lb's. I have 55 thrust so it does well as long as the battery last... Getting up stream will be the challange once I up stream getting back will be easyLOL

When ever I have some time and the river goes down I think I will go down to Pt Pleasant and give it a try... I think you will be right though. It will be a little sketchy in strong currents and wind..

Are you down there very often?


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