# Fear of Change........(f.o.c)



## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

well after two months of reading more than I ever care to read, and watching more YouTube than I ever cared to watch… I am finally convinced to change to a heavy arrow set up…( Heavy forward of center). After two months I have finally found my sweet spot which is a 300 spine arrow with a 200 grain Broadhead (50 grain insert/outsert). The penetration is undeniable, the results are undeniable.
for decades now, I have shot a 400 spine arrow with a 100 grain broadhead… I'm sick and tired of the deer moving after the shot, not getting a complete pass through, and not recovering my dear, or trailing blood for 300 yards. i'm not saying mechanicals and lighter set ups don't work… They do, but at 300 ft./s, hitting bone, they don't work. It works when you take the perfect shot, missing the ribs, missing the bone… I'm ready to just go through it

What do you guys think? What are your opinions?… I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just want to hear opinions


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

this is my new set up this year… This is3/4 plywood shot at 25 yards...


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

and just for funsiees... Here is the exact same shot with tset up I was using forever… 400 spine with 100 grain broad head...(G5 montec)


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)




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## G-Patt (Sep 3, 2013)

I agree, the heavier FOC option is very good option. The plusses beat the minuses in my opinion as well. Just have to go through the process of tuning everything to meet that set up and practice, practice, but once you lock it in, it's a deadly arrow. All of my bow kills are within 25 yards so heavier FOC is not an issue. For those used to shooting longer distances, the slower arrow could be an issue...but the release should quieter. Remember to aim lower on jumpy/alerted deer too. I'd rather miss them than wound them is my moto.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm like you as well… I personally never killed a deer beyond 25 yards (bow)...But the heavy FOC arrows are built exactly for that situation, they are meant for closer range shots… That's the whole point of them. 
The lighter set ups do work, I'm not going to argue that they don't work… But the difference is that they only work really well when you make the perfect shot, and yes of course there are people that will say they blow through deer every time with mechanicals and lighter arrows… But the survivability of the Broadhead is completely diminished, and it's never an absolute guarantee that you're not going to get stopped at a bone( deer moves slightly or jumps the string) Heavy FOC set ups have that advantage of busting straight through the deer… Whether it's broadside, quartering to, or quartering away…


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## G-Patt (Sep 3, 2013)

There's very little margin for error on the lighter arrow/mechanical combo. One time I was off my mark when I shot a doe in the shoulder blade with that combo. There was almost no penetration but was lodged in her blade - poor thing. It was not a lethal hit, and I'm sure at some point the arrow came out - but just made me sick to my stomach. After that, I researched and incorporated the heavier FOC/fixed blade and never looked back and that never happened again. Man, can't wait for deer season to get here.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yes! I am the same way and have had the same experiences, I always wait for a good ethical broadside or quartering away shot… But like anyone else, I have zero control over what the deer does once the arrow is released.. regardless of whether I aimed at the perfect spot on the deer, once they move a bit the Point of impact changes and the chance of hitting bone greatly increases… And it's not a controllable factor… With the exception of using the heavier set ups… good luck this year and let me know how your set up works and I will do the same… Until then I am going to keep tuning and practicing!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

This new "heavy arrow" fad is still just a fad, no different than the light arrow/over draw fad of the 90s. People will eventually realize it offers no actual advantage over a middle-of-the-road moderate weight shaft with a good quality fixed blade head. Penetration differences are ENORMOUSLY exaggerated by the heavy set up proponents, just like the speed proponents exaggerated the so-called advantages that came with a light set up. If you stick a deer in the thick part of the shoulder blade, it's walking away no matter that your set up is. Extremes on either end of the spectrum are never the best all around choice. Especially when talking about something as small as a whitetail. If hunting something like hippos or elephants, then the penetration differences are real.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

M.Magis said:


> This new "heavy arrow" fad is still just a fad, no different than the light arrow/over draw fad of the 90s. People will eventually realize it offers no actual advantage over a middle-of-the-road moderate weight shaft with a good quality fixed blade head. Penetration differences are ENORMOUSLY exaggerated by the heavy set up proponents, just like the speed proponents exaggerated the so-called advantages that came with a light set up. If you stick a deer in the thick part of the shoulder blade, it's walking away no matter that your set up is. Extremes on either end of the spectrum are never the best all around choice. Especially when talking about something as small as a whitetail. If hunting something like hippos or elephants, then the penetration differences are real.


The only thing wrong with what you're saying is that with the heavy arrow set ups… The results are literally posted, the numbers are posted… They are facts… They are not fads… They are facts.
mid to light arrow set ups literally lose 30 to 40% momentum at impact.... look it up… The heavier arrow set ups actually gain, yes gain, momentum at impact. I was the same as you, or anyone else that doesn't take the time to look into it… I first saw the stuff and thought it was silly… And then got deeper into it and it's not just shooting sledgehammers from their bows and calling it a better set up… the super slow speed cameras, chronographed, the facts are there, And literally backed up with the numbers in the videos. and no, I'm not a fairy duster… But if you take the time to watch every one of his videos, it is done methodically, recorded, and it's really not something That can be argued with. I get it though at first it's hard to agree with… And what I did in my backyard is not even the icing on the cake because I don't have the money for a radar chronograph and super Slomo cameras.
and I do not argue with you at all M. Maggis, lighter set ups do work… until they don't Penetrate ribs or bone… But the whole point of the heavy FOC is to achieve better penetration, any animal you're shooting at is a moving target, and your point of aim is generally different than your point of impact, that's just a fact and it cannot be controlled… So I not except the fact that we must assume the annual will move and there's always a possibility of hitting bone, a typical 400 grain set up doesn't get it done... That pic I took in my backyard I just went up to around 500 Grain set up, mostly weight forward... The other unddeniable point is that the heavier broadhead will just plain survive, all the way through the animal.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

in your post you said that no matter what the set up is you're not gonna penetrate the heavy part of a shoulderbone, tell me why you think it is that heavier mass will not have better penetration over lighter mass? To me, that's not a fad, that's physics


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## Smitty82 (Mar 13, 2011)

The ranch fairy has convinced me to go heavy. I just haven’t had time to put the work into changing my set up.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

I’m not saying the “facts” aren’t facts. I’m saying they’re not really applicable to deer hunting. We’re not trying to penetrate 20” of muscle or 3” of tough hide. Now, I do think between the two extremes, heavy is by FAR the way to go. There’s really no downside if you don’t get duped into outrageously expensive broadheads, and don’t take questionable shots assuming a heavy arrow can get through any shot. ( I’ve seen this on some videos where they really push the heavy arrow theory). And I didn’t say a heavier arrow wouldn’t penetrate more, but it won’t be enough to matter when talking about a 1” thick cross section of shoulder blade or right on the knuckle. Those are just bad shots that aren’t going to end well no matter what. When you start talking about extra large game where the hide could be 3” thick and a rib more than 1”, the heavy arrow is the only way to go. But I think too many shows are suggesting the heavy set up can overcome poor shots, just like light arrow proponents used to push the “larger margin for error” theory in regards to distance estimating.


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## Draggin' Fish (Jul 10, 2007)

I agree that the heavier arrow will penetrate better, that is simple physics like you said. However, the importance of a perfectly tuned bow and arrow combination cannot be overstated. A tuned arrow does not "wiggle" in flight and all the energy is focused in a straight line behind the broadhead, which maximizes penetration. The development of mechanical heads has allowed bowhunters to get away with imperfect arrow flight. The combination of poor arrow flight and large diameter mechanical heads leads to poor(less) penetration. Mechanical heads in general are not as stout as fixed blade heads, often breaking blades when bone is hit. Also, it looks like you have switched from a 3 blade to 2 blade head, which will also improve penetration. Most modern compound bows of 60 lb and up will blow right through a deer shoulder blade when properly tuned with fixed blade heads and arrows of 400 grains and up. Good luck with your new setup - looks like you have definitely made an improvement.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yea, m nagis... I think you're correct in saying extreme heavy set ups just are not needed in ohio... im talking like 7 or 800 grain setups... but just creeping into the 500 grain arrow , looks to me like it would make a huge difference on ribcages though... ive shot 400 spine with 100 grain heads a bunch... and .03 steel , ehhh, i mean, just go to .07, it helps... yes they are much more expensive… But on the upside, the Broadhead survives and can be resharpened.


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## G-Patt (Sep 3, 2013)

This is a good discussion and both sides of the FOC position have reasonable points to make. With the variable of tuning being the same, most styles of arrows will get the job done, so one just needs to shoot what they have more confidence in. Remember confidence and persistence kills. I personally prefer a heavier FOC, and based on my shooting ability (average at best), the kills I've made and the way I hunt, I've had more success using the heavier FOC and thus more confidence in it. I just need to work harder on the persistence game. As of today, we are literally 61 days from the bow opener. It's like Christmas Day.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yes... Heavier arrow set ups mean nothing without first tuning the arrow and the bow, perfect arrow flight is a must no matter what the set up. fletching can mask improper arrow flight, that's why I'm starting with bare shaft tuning , no fletching.if the arrow is not flying straight, A very significant percentage of momentum and penetration power is lost at the point of impact. this is what I am focusing on this summer:
1) straight arrow flight ( bow tuning, nock tuning, arrow tuning)
2) heavy foc (weight forward), not necessarily extreme FOC, but significantly heavier than when I have always been using.
3) using broad heads with structural integrity
( two blade, cut on contact, .07 steel)
4) Learning to sharpen the broad heads on a stone and a strop.
... and, yes, this requires a lot of time and it is a bit of a headache so far. but I want to learn to change my results when I release the arrow. I Want to learn to shoot and retrieve, not to track with a headlamp.


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## mmtchell (Jul 9, 2014)

That second arrow is 3 blade ...big difference...I shoot 350 and rage hyp.2 blade ,,, 260 fps...deadly..... shot placement is the most important thing for any of us bowhunters...quick clean harvest,, aim small miss small....


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yes you're right there is a difference, a three blade broadhead acts like a wedge… Regardless… If that three blade weighed 200 grains I would still not achieve the penetration and cutting power of a two blade.
... oh yeah and I shot a rage too at the same piece of wood... it was the worst performing broadhead of all three..









I would sum up the rage broadheads as nothing more than a cereal box prize… if you hit a deer absolutely perfectly, with no resistance, they work… I have used them in the past… If you wanna look up some interesting articles look up Dr. Ashby reports. yes I know you're gonna say "I use them and have no problems" but you, just like me, and just like everyone else that hunts with a bow, is not a perfect shot, in the bigger picture, there is a higher percentage of deer that are not retrieved and not killed with that two blade, paperthin , mechanical.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

and yes you are absolutely correct in saying that shot placement is number one… But we are human, and deer move,
myself or anyone else, including you,have absolutely no control over what the deer is going to do… No matter how accurate you are… You cannot control with certainty where that area is going to hit. That's the entire premise behind the heavier set up… If the deer moves a few inches, I'm not worried about hitting bone, I will go right through it and still achieve a clean pass through. and I am definitely not supporting running out into the woods with a heavier arrow set up and taking irresponsible shots, if you're the guy that uses the lighter set up and waits for the perfect shot,( broadside or quartering to) and you pass on shots that you know aren't going to work, then good on you!… I do the same thing. But nonetheless, deer are almost always a moving target.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

and to correct your post a little bit… You might shoot 260fps.. but you're not hitting a deer at 260 FPS....that's the speed measured directly after the release, at the bow…. Lighter set ups are proven to lose close to 40% of the velocity and mass at impact, on a 25-30 yard shot. you're actually hitting a deer at more like 200 fps, with a broadhead that is usually destroyed or bent on impact… Those reports and studies are published, and I have used rage, which is why I can say that.


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## DHower08 (Nov 20, 2015)

Whoever is doubting going heavy just make the jump. Get rid of mechanicals start shooting SHARP coc broadheads and start having fun. Arrow building and tuning is ridiculously relaxing especially if your ocd about everything being perfect. I am mentally a nut case when it comes to my bow and arrows being perfectly tuned. I can literally screw any broadhead onto the end of my arrow and have them fly perfectly. My bow will shoot bareshafts at 40 yards and hit the exact same spot as fletched shafts. 


Back on track the heavy arrows rock. I have shot super lightweight and super heavy arrows. Heavier arrows fly better hit harder and most importantly make your bow and extreme amount quieter. I'm actually considering building a 750 grain arrow just to see if I can knock a deer off it's feet


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## DHower08 (Nov 20, 2015)

I explain the high FOC thing to guys like this. Take a nerf football and a regular football. Which one flies better. The nerf football wins everytime. All the weight is in the front vs where a regular football is equally weighted. You can throw a nerf football with the ball pointed towards you and the shaft and veins pointing where you are throwing it and it will turn itself and continue on.


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## G-Patt (Sep 3, 2013)

9Left and DHower, I want to see some dead deer pics this year. I'd love to see a follow up on the high FOC discussion. I'll do my best too.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

G-Patt said:


> 9Left and DHower, I want to see some dead deer pics this year. I'd love to see a follow up on the high FOC discussion. I'll do my best too.


you got it! i'm not saying I haven't killed deer with lighter set ups and mechanicals, I have… But in the bigger picture, the percentage of deer lost or never found is higher when compared to the numbers that are posted with heavier arrow set ups... I still got a little ways to go… I am done bare shaft tuning, done (nocc) tuning, I have fletched the five good arrows out of the dozen that I bought… I'm going to keep practicing with them… I just received my sharpening stone and my leather strop in the mail from Amazon… I'm going to fine-tune the edges and be ready around the middle of October

.... and I know to anyone that wants to try this… You can't just go and add a really heavy Broadhead to your arrow and expect everything to go great… This has been pretty much of a headache for the last two months for me… But I finally got the arrows to fly perfectly straight off the bow now I just need to add the second element which is an extremely sharp cut on contact Broadhead


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

and yes, dhower explain that fairly well… I have never thrown a Nerf football compared to a regular one… But I will try that… My Explanation is this… With the heavier weight forward of center ...the Broadhead is pulling the shaft versus with a lighter set up the shaft is pushing the light Broadhead


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## DHower08 (Nov 20, 2015)

9Left said:


> and yes, dhower explain that fairly well… I have never thrown a Nerf football compared to a regular one… But I will try that… My Explanation is this… With the heavier weight forward of center ...the Broadhead is pulling the shaft versus with a lighter set up the shaft is pushing the light Broadhead


You nailed it. That's the exact theory behind it pulling vs pushing, I think we learned that around 5th grade possibly. Simple physics. Not that physics are simple but sometimes what seems complicated is not at all. 



G-Patt said:


> 9Left and DHower, I want to see some dead deer pics this year. I'd love to see a follow up on the high FOC discussion. I'll do my best too.


I'll do my best for you. After what I shot last year hard saying if I'll hold out for bigger or what. I always put a few does down from different properties though. Now that my son is a certified deer and turkey killing machine I don't have to be concerned about shooting as many myself to feed 3 of us for the year. I have never had an issue with not getting pass throughs unless something went wrong but these heavier arrows just hit a deer differently, it's hard to explain. 

If you build and tune a heavier arrow with a higher FOC you will be amazed at the difference in flight. Literally Lazer beams.


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## cueman (May 28, 2019)

Ranch fairy, on YouTube, has some good videos on this. Good stuff.


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## cueman (May 28, 2019)

I wonder if this would be high F.O.C. on a wood shaft?


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