# Does city law trump state law?



## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

The reason I ask is i got a $500 ticket for pking in a handicapped pking spot and I'm disputing it. First let me say I've lived in Columbus all of my 41 years and never had a pking ticket. 

I was at Mr. Carmel West hospital to see dr and came out to find a ticket on my car. I look around and don't see anything marking the spot until I look up in a tree next to meter and literally 10' in the air 50% obscured by branches in middle of a tree is the sign. No paint on curb or street designating it HC. The meter itself is not marked with any symbol or words designating it HC either.

So since its $500 I fight it and the referee at my hearing said Columbus doesn't paint the ground designating HC spots and only half the meters have the symbol on them, only the older one's. The sign being blocked by branches was my main contention but he gave it no weight. He actually said its a highly ticketed spot and everyone fights it saying its blocked so he personally drove over to see it himself several times this year and in his opinion its visible enough. Imo there shouldn't be one leaf in front of it for $500. 

So I appeal his decision and I'm looking online at http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.69 and section E states Ohio law is HC sign must be exactly 5' off ground. When I told the ref it was 10' up he rambled off a Columbus city code that all signs must be 8' off ground from bottom of sign. The HC sign at my spot was stacked on top of a snow removal sign which was 8' off ground from bottom of sign so hence it was 10' up in the tree.

So if state law trumps city then the city is in the wrong for not having it at 5'. Does anybody KNOW for sure or anyplace free I could call or look up.

I've got multiple pics of the scene but they're on my phone and I just can't figure out how to post them on here for the life of me. He'll I've been wanting to post an 11 lbs Erie eye from this summer but can't do that either. Sorry to bitch. Ty in advance guys.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

I doubt you will get a qualifyed answer here but a good law firm should be able to advise you if it is worth the fight.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

im with shortdrift on this one. for a 500.00 fine i would check with a pro.
sherman


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## samiam (Jan 6, 2011)

I has nothing to do with right or wrong. It is just a way of generating income. The only way you will win is if you hire a attorney for $1000 dollars. There is no longer any justice in the court system.


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## Fish Scalper (Oct 31, 2009)

Having dealt with many levels of regulation over the years, the general rule is each lower level of government can only make things more stingent, not less. More safe, not less. Perhaps locally, they feel the sign won't be seen at 5' in certain conditions, like behind parked trucks or something, but will always be seen if higher. That's generally how one law trumps another.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm not sure about if State laws trump City laws or not, but HC regulations are related to the Americans With Disabilities Act which is a federal law. The federal government issued guidelines for handicap parking spaces. These guidelines are used by architects and engineers when designing new buildings. I looked through the regs that I have and this is all I could find relating to signage. I couldn't find anywhere where pavement markings are required. I still think you have a good argument about the sign being partially obscured and I would find it for as long as I could without getting a lawyer involved since he would cost you $500 minimum. They must have doubled the fines recently. Last I remember it was a $250 fine. Some HC signs also have an additional signs telling you what the fine is. 


4.6.4* Signage. Accessible parking spaces
shall be designated as reserved by a sign
showing the symbol of accessibility (see
4.30.7). Spaces complying with 4.1.2(5)(b) shall
have an additional sign Van-Accessible
mounted below the symbol of accessibility.
Such signs shall be located so they cannot be
obscured by a vehicle parked in the space.


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

take pics to court and plead not guilty is what i would do. i think the spot is not properly marked for handicapped parking.


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## mpd5094 (Jun 20, 2005)

freyedknot said:


> take pics to court and plead not guilty is what i would do. i think the spot is not properly marked for handicapped parking.


He's absolutely correct! You will win that in court! At least here you would.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Ask for a jury trial!


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## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

I do feel a jury trial would help my case. The people in the system are so used to dealing with thugs day in day out that they treated me like a farm animal. Very short, no compassion, one word answers and just a general tightness about them where they wouldn't talk to me like a person. I'm positive if a jury saw the pics of the branches they'd dismiss it instantly. I was fully expecting the referee to dismiss it after he saw them too and was shocked when he upheld it. 

Now I'm starting to think its a racket. That street in front of the hospital is always packed and hawked over by the meter maids. I'm thinking if they just refuse to dismiss for anything short of having an atty or jury trial that they're raking in tens of thousands of dollars a year from this one lonely spot!


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## meisjedog (Oct 4, 2010)

Ask for a trial even if you have no chance. Many times the cop who wrote the ticket will not show up and you can ask to have the case dismissed.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

I may be wrong , but I think the reason there are state laws dictating the location and height of the signs , and keeping it universal is so that you dont have to search for the sign , you always know where to look. I remember a case years ago where a court challenge helped change the law. It was either Fla. or Ga. , cant remember....may even be all states for all I know , but people were getting tickets for parking in handicapped slots that had only been painted on the pavement with no sign , over time the paint wore off and wasnt always visible , but tickets were issued anyway. If I remember correctly thats when they said from now on even if its painted on the pavement it must also have a sign too , and it must be a certain height. I dont know whether any of this is useful information or not or that my memory is completely accurate in this case but the law on these signs is supposed to be kept "universal".....for lack of a better word at the moment , and it may be that the city code needs to be challenged. If they can put them signs just anywhere they want to then there is a problem.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Pigsticker said:


> He actually said its a highly ticketed spot and everyone fights it saying its blocked so he personally drove over to see it himself several times this year and in his opinion its visible enough.


That should be enough to get it thrown out right there. And that yahoo is obviously not going to have any trouble spotting it if he goes there looking for it.

It sounds like it is no different than a speed trap. 

Is there any ordinance governing the obscurance of signs?

It also sounds like you need to get some clear pictures printed of what you have on your camera.

Take the trial, and show up in a suit with a briefcase. You've got nothing to lose. Document what the referee said. Take measurements. Describe exactly what the weather was like, would there have been shadows on the sign too, etc.


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## armour1265 (Sep 29, 2009)

Your argument could be that the local ordinance is beyond the city's powers under the Home Rule Amendment to the State Constitution. Google Mendenhall v. Akron to see a recent Ohio Supreme Court case on this issue.

The above is merely a suggestion for conversational purposes and should not be taken as legal advice.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

I'd go back and take pictures with a good camera and print them out. 

On a side note I got a ticket for parking in a handicap spot at the Shaker Rapid. The lot wasn't plowed and there was no sign only paint on the spot covered by 4" of snow. I took a photo and mailed it woth a note of explanation and the Shaker Heights court waived the ticket....


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

meisjedog said:


> Ask for a trial even if you have no chance. Many times the cop who wrote the ticket will not show up and you can ask to have the case dismissed.


and if nothing else, before you go up in front of the judge ,even with the policeman at court,the prosecutor will offer you a plea deal. did it a few times (not for handicap parking) for moving violations. and the prosecutor offered me a safety violation fine . much cheaper ticket and no points for my moving violation. believe me they really do not want to go to a trial over a traffic ticket no more than you do.


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

Pigsticker said:


> The reason I ask is i got a $500 ticket for pking in a handicapped pking spot and I'm disputing it. First let me say I've lived in Columbus all of my 41 years and never had a pking ticket.
> 
> I was at Mr. Carmel West hospital to see dr and came out to find a ticket on my car. I look around and don't see anything marking the spot until I look up in a tree next to meter and literally 10' in the air 50% obscured by branches in middle of a tree is the sign. No paint on curb or street designating it HC. The meter itself is not marked with any symbol or words designating it HC either.
> 
> ...


Throw the law back in thier face you will win! No grey area there unless they already moved the sign and stripped the space. The laws for disabilities is Federal and all handicapped spaces shall me marked the same.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Regarding phone pictures - put your email address into your phone contacts and you can send pics to yourself. The return address will be your cell number and the pic will be an attachment.


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

Central Ohio certainly has issues with blocking signage. Dublin and Hilliard are the kings of this. These idiots plant trees right in front of speed limit and 20mph school lights. 
These communtities make roadways less safe by obscuring driveways and intersections in the name of aesthetics.
Good luck with your fight. Let us know how it goes.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

years ago there where certain villages that would partially hide most of their speed limit signs. it makes for good income until they are called out.just make sure you know you are right about the laws regarding the situation.


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## fishinjim (Aug 9, 2006)

It sucks that our law enforcement resort to revenue generation instead of providing a valuable service. Red light cameras, I feel are the same entrapment.




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## spfldbassguy (Mar 23, 2009)

I personally don't have any issues with the Red Light Cameras some municipalities have installed. We got some right here in Springfield and I still see goofballs running through those intersections. It's not like these cameras haven't been up for awhile and they're pretty well marked. The way I see it is if they help one,two,three,or a hundred people a year from getting hit in an intersection then I'm ok with it.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

In searching the ADA site, there appears to not be a specific requirement on how a sign is posted, other than it is visible. Below is not formal legal advice:

From http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.69 

All elevated signs posted in accordance with this division and division (C) of section 3781.111 of the Revised Code* shall be mounted on a fixed or movable post, and the distance from the ground to the top edge of the sign shall measure five feet. *If a new sign or a replacement sign designating a special parking location is posted on or after October 14, 1999, there also shall be affixed upon the surface of that sign or affixed next to the designating sign a notice that states the fine applicable for the offense of parking a motor vehicle in the special designated parking location if the motor vehicle is not legally entitled to be parked in that location.

From the ADA web site: http://www.ada.gov/reg3a.html#Anchor-16919

*4.6.4* Signage.* Accessible parking spaces shall be designated as reserved by a sign showing the symbol of accessibility (see 4.30.7). Spaces complying with 4.1.2(5)(b) shall have an additional sign "Van-Accessible" mounted below the symbol of accessibility. *Such signs shall be located so they cannot be obscured by a vehicle parked in the space.
*
My note: 4.30.7 refers to the slope of the ground for handicapped parking.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

Does the sign in question have the fine on it? It may be a non enforceable sign.

Article from COLUMBUS DISPATCH Saturday November 1, 2008 7:58 AM : http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2008/11/01/Handicap.ART_ART_11-01-08_B1_2UBOV76.html

*"Drivers who illegally park at handicapped spaces at Columbus malls, theaters and stores have a good chance of beating a ticket -- if the familiar blue sign with the wheelchair logo does not include the fine, the city attorney said."*

*"Since 2004, Ohio has required that the blue-painted meters and wheelchair-logo signs, whether on public or private property, also include the fine.

"The state statute is very clear," Columbus City Attorney Richard C. Pfeiffer Jr. said. "If you're going to charge what is viewed as a very onerous fine, you've got to warn them.

"If it's not there, it's not a good ticket. That's the way it is."*

It would seem to me that in reference the State Statute, he is also implying that the state Statute must be followed. You may try pointing out that this would include the State sign height requirement.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

Was your hearing done properly?

http://library.municode.com/HTML/16...150PAVI.html#TIT21TRCO_CH2150PAVI_2150.07HEPR

2150.07 - Hearing procedure.

(A)

If a person who is personally or constructively served with a parking ticket charging the commission of a parking infraction or who receives a notification of infraction, *in his answer to the charge denies that he committed the infraction,* *the parking violations bureau shall conduct a hearing *to determine if the person committed the parking infraction. Each hearing shall be conducted by a hearing examiner of the parking violations bureau. Each hearing shall be conducted in such manner as the hearing examiner considers appropriate. Rules regarding the admissibility of evidence shall not be strictly applied in the hearing, but all testimony shall be under oath.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

Found what you need to defend this.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/16219/level2/TIT21TRCO_CH2155PAME.html#TIT21TRCO_CH2155PAME_2155.01DE

"Handicapped designated parking space" means parking spaces on public or private streets, parking lots and parking garages designated for the exclusive use of a handicapped designated vehicle *and denoted as such in accordance with the requirements of the Ohio Revised Code Section 4511.69 (E), Ohio Revised Code Section 3781.111 (C), the Ohio Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices and the City of Columbus Transportation Sign Installation Manual. *

PS: they do have a code that raises the fine to $500.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Worked as summer help for ODOT. There was a speed limit sign just outside the village of Westville in Champaign County that was obscurred by several low hanging limbs, resulting in dozens if not hundreds of speeding tickets. For yrs the local Sheriff Dept and Ohio State Patrol made it a point to park a cruiser and just keep writing tickets. Until they pulled over a LAWYER. He pointed out that there IS in fact an Ohio State statute that REQUIRES any official party placing a PUBLIC sign to "maintain it in good condition AND TO ENSURE IT IS VISIBLE AT A REASONABLE DISTANCE TO BE OF USE...including removing any obscurring TREE LIMBS". This "legal eagle' not only had his ticket thrown OUT, but actually sent a FORMAL letter to the Champaign County Engineer`s Office out lining a proposed "class action " lawsuit for failure to ect, ect, ect. Our crew was out doing litter pick up, when we got a serious call back in, loaded up our gear, headed out, blocked off St. Rte 36, detoured trafic with no notice at all and assisted while a local tree company cut down that entire maple and had it GONE in under 3 hrs FLAT!!! End of that speed trap...GUARENTEE YOU- there IS such a state law if you can find it ! Find it and INSIST they CORRECT it..."class action" lawsuit anybody ?


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Great Research FISNFOOL! You can be on my defense team if I ever need it! !%


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

This board kicks butt.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

I don't know what the results will be if you fight the ticket,but I had a similar experience that I tried to fight without success,and mine was even more puzzling.Back in the day when the state had just finished the Kokosing Lake Wildlife Area I drove down and parked along the feeder stream at an area I had been parking at for years,this was an outstanding area at the time for stream smallmouth.After a few hours of fishing,I returned to my truck to find a ticket on the windshield.Wondering why I received this,I immediately read it and it said that I was parked in an unauthorized zone.Kind of shocked at that moment,I looked around everywhere to see if there was any signs I may have missed on my way back in there-there wasn't.I figured instead of just paying the $100.00,I would protest the ticket in court(guess the hundy wasn't enough for me,I decided to add court costs too-lol).Naturally I lost the issue,I remember asking the wildlife officer that had wrote the ticket why I was cited for a parking violation when there was no sign present to warn against parking there(remember I had been parking there for years),his response was the same as the court's response-ignorance of the law is no excuse! On paper I guess they had deemed that area to be off limits to parking,the fact that they hadn't posted yet obviously didn't matter to them.Of course my friends talked me into fighting it,which I did,some even suggested that in such a slam dunk case I had,I should hire an attorney.The fine was $100.00 plus another $20.00 and change for court costs,why would I want to pay another couple hundred for an attorney? State 1-Harbor Hunter 0.After that ordeal,I just pay for whatever if I have a ticket on my windshield.


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## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

Hey Fisnfool I appreciate the effort you took put in researching that. I did look at the pic and the fine is listed along the bottom, which had a branch in front of it. So you're saying it does have to be in accordance with state law at 5' at top of sign? Ill do aome more research on it.

I just got court date set at Jan 9th but it said nothing of a jury. Im going to have to call the city next week to ask if thats possible.


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

if you pled not guilty, the prosecutor will most likely offer you a plea deal,like a safety violation and a fine of $25.00. most likely


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

If you are found guilty, out of spite I would try to remove the "offending branch" and ruin their 'racket' as a "Public service".


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## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

Lowell its easy to see the sign now. There's not one leaf on the tree. My ticket was September when she was in full bloom. 

Freyednot id take the plea at $25 plus the appeal fee of $117 I already paid last week to cut my losses if offered.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

My thought is this; come spring, same thing will happen again and again. If the city says they don`t have the funding to remove it would offer a tree service $50 to lop it off. Chances are, it would be gone in short order and so would be the funding that the branch generates for the city...I LOVE to 'solve' problems. Personally, I would be very tempted to send the court ref you spoke to a FORMAL letter claiming responsibility and telling them as a responsible citizen I personally funded what the City could not manage to, and "...no, there would be NO need to reimburse me; it was my PLEASURE!" What could they do? Make you put it back?


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

If you cut the limb, they'd probably give you another ticket for damaging public property...:S


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Ok, forget the "formal " letter...$50 for 5 minutes of "after hrs' tree pruning...problem SOLVED !


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## Jigging Jim (Apr 3, 2010)

Corruption at its finest!


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

bdawg said:


> Great Research FISNFOOL! You can be on my defense team if I ever need it! !%


Thanks. But to be formally be on your team would cost you an all you can eat prime rib dinner at a steak house. And I have been on steroids for 8 years.

It may be cheaper to hire OJ's lawyers, if any are still alive.


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

Pigsticker said:


> Hey Fisnfool I appreciate the effort you took put in researching that. I did look at the pic and the fine is listed along the bottom, which had a branch in front of it. So you're saying it does have to be in accordance with state law at 5' at top of sign? Ill do aome more research on it.
> 
> I just got court date set at Jan 9th but it said nothing of a jury. Im going to have to call the city next week to ask if thats possible.


The link I posted in my earlier post is the link to City of Columbus law.

It states they have to follow OH law. See the previous link. Print it out and take the statute to court.

Columbus, Ohio, Code of Ordinances >> Title 21 - TRAFFIC CODE

See section H.

(h) "Handicapped designated parking space" means parking spaces on public or private streets, parking lots and parking garages designated for the exclusive use of a handicapped designated vehicle and denoted as such in accordance with the requirements of the Ohio Revised Code Section 4511.69 (E), Ohio Revised Code Section 3781.111 (C), the Ohio Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices and the City of Columbus Transportation Sign Installation Manual. 

http://library.municode.com/HTML/16219/level2/TIT21TRCO_CH2155PAME.html#TIT21TRCO_CH2155PAME_2155.01DE


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## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

I finally heard back from the city about the ticket and I won! Oddly enough not on the grounds that the sign was blocked. They gave it to me on the sign being too high. I also get back my $117 fee for appealing. Who says you can't represent yourself and win?


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Pigsticker said:


> I finally heard back from the city about the ticket and I won! Oddly enough not on the grounds that the sign was blocked. They gave it to me on the sign being too high. I also get back my $117 fee for appealing. Who says you can't represent yourself and win?


Congrats and good job. There is justice!


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## FISNFOOL (May 12, 2009)

Glad to hear it. They knew they were in violation of their own law.


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