# its cold outside..come in for the debate



## tractor5561 (Aug 17, 2008)

hey all, so recently i got into quite a heated debate with a fellow fly fisherman on the subject of presentation vs. fly selection, and which trumps the other on any given day on the water. i wont go into details, but needless to say this issue gets quite a bit of spotlight around the vise, in the shop and on the river...thoughts? not trying to stir the pot, genuinely interested about the topic, any insight is much appreciated.


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## toobnoob (Jun 1, 2010)

IMO presentation is more of a factor then fly selection most of the time. If it looks and acts like food the fish will usually take it. There are times when fish are keying in on something specific like a school of bait fish or a hatch and will almost exclusively feed on that but in my experience that's the exception and not the norm.


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## fishmerf (Mar 28, 2008)

I once found myself locked in a duel with a vicious brown. I could hear him rising before I could see him. He was sucking in mayflies. I made several casts to this fish giving him a break in between casts. If I sent one to his left, he would not even look at the fly. When I finally put the fly between him and bank, he took it without hesitation. 
I have caught many fish on dries when there was nothing hatching. I am not going to say that fly selection is not important. However, In my 38 years of fishing for trout, I have found presentation to be more important. I wouldn't eat a hamburger if you put it in a dirty dog dish- not matter how good the burger looked!


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

I think it's mostly presentation for trout, but only mostly. Where I trout fish in WV, in good conditions with good water flows, just about any dry fly patern will get sipped if it is presented well. However, in those same streams, with slow flows and calm water, the same #14 elk hair caddis will get ignored while a tiny midge pattern will get sipped, whether there is a hatch or not. I have noticed that in calmer water and low flows, smaller and more subtle patterns get a lot more fish than Royal Wulff's, Humpy's, etc...

On a side note, I feel most fly tyers for bass (me included) are excessive with trying to perfectly mimic a prey item. I see this a lot with craw patterns for bass, tying in perfect pincers and antennae, legs, shell back, etc... In my humble opinion, these are no more effective than a well-presented wooly bugger or other generic pattern.


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

I actually agree with everyone so far and especially Cream's comment about the fly being a perfect imitation. I modified a wooly booger to imitate a craw. Does it look exactly like it? No but I'm willing to bet I get fish on it. It has pheasant fiber claws, a fluted tail and is rust brown and olive. Close enough I bet. Look at a Rebel Wee Craw lure for example. It is about color and not the shape. It's a hard lure with out any moving appendages. Probably one of the most popular lures out there and definitely get's results. 

The argument of presentation vs. selection is really null and void. The setting of the creek/river/pond determines that for you. As Cream said, many times you have to match the hatch based on what the fish is doing. Other times you just have to be close but make it look right. I've caught trout with a bad drag (no mending) on a dry fly. I've caught trout with an awesome no drag presentation on the same day with in minutes of the bad drag presentation. Why? They were hungry and eating.

The environment being fished dictates selection and presentation. It isn't one or the other because too many factors go into it.


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## 21938 (Feb 17, 2010)

I think alot has to do with the species targeted. Presentation has alot to do with it as far as placement, depth, fly color, and not whipping the water into a froth when fishing spooky shallow fish. Smallmouth seem to be opportunists and will take crawfish, leech and minnow immitations most of the time if fished correctly. Dry flies for them depend on the situation. I've found that my toughest test are carp. They can be very finicky at times and both the fly selection and presentation are important.


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## tractor5561 (Aug 17, 2008)

the smallmouth i fish for during the summer dont pay so much to attention to detail, i would agree. however i do think color plays a role, which IS part of fly selection. im not sure if color would trump presentation, but in my experince with smallies color is always an important factor. the ONLY reason i would say fly selection trumps presentation especially in trout fishing is silhouette. like you said cream, fish generally will take a whooly bugger just as readily as a fancy decked out cray pattern, and while they may not be the same, if hook size and overall profile are similar both will catch fish (if presented properly). I dont think the fancy patterns are meant to be some kind of godsend cure all that catch more fish ( do i believe they are flashy and will get some clowns to pay 6 bucks a piece...yes). however these little adjusments and wingdings might be little things that set it apart and make fish do a double take. for instance alot of guys up around cleveland believe the steelhead key in on the eyes of their prey especially red and orange eyes, therefore dumbell eyes in various colors might be added, the same could be said with different appendages given to the craw dads....

"The argument of presentation vs. selection is really null and void. The setting of the creek/river/pond determines that for you. As Cream said, many times you have to match the hatch based on what the fish is doing. Other times you just have to be close but make it look right. I've caught trout with a bad drag (no mending) on a dry fly. I've caught trout with an awesome no drag presentation on the same day with in minutes of the bad drag presentation. Why? They were hungry and eating.

The environment being fished dictates selection and presentation. It isn't one or the other because too many factors go into it."

i would disagree. To be more clear lets say we have established what the fish are feeding on, at this point would you rely more on one general pattern and presentation? or would you sift through your box to find something maybe the fish would be more inclined to bite even on a bad presentation? if you need a specific example i could think of about a million off the top of my head....


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

In 30 years of fishing trout, mostly on the mad river, I can tell you 98% of the time, presentation is catamount to success. now the other 2% of the time, they will eat anything, presnted any way , its crazy when you hit a day when you can do no wrong.... On the mad I use about 8 flies all year and have only 1-2 times found I couldnt get something to eat one of those 8, ( oh, its happened a few times but very rarely) when fish are rising, shape and how it lays on the surface can be the ticket, with color rarely being an issue, its the sillouette. For fun i have thrown size 4 floating Chernobyl ants in the gaudiest of colors and caught plenty of fish when they were not rising

Salmonid


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

I have fished trout on super-hot, calm, low water when they were too cantankerous to eat much of anything, and were just sitting on the bottom moping. They refused every dry I tried, terrestrials, etc. 

Then I stripped a #14 copper john fast and caught like 8 fish. There's no nymph that swims as fast as a sculpin lol, and if there was it wouldn't be made of copper. Presentation is everything, except for the occasional super-hatch when the fish is going to have a natural version right next to your fly and a choice.

However, in the super-hatch situation, your should have a streamer that looks like a little trout and strip that


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## benjaminrogers (Jul 11, 2011)

tractor5561 said:


> i would disagree. To be more clear lets say we have established what the fish are feeding on, at this point would you rely more on one general pattern and presentation? or would you sift through your box to find something maybe the fish would be more inclined to bite even on a bad presentation? if you need a specific example i could think of about a million off the top of my head....


Honestly if I new exactly what the fish was feeding on I would focus on one general pattern (that matched the food) and then the presentation. If I know what chow is for the day, I'm in like Flynn.


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## sbreech (Jun 6, 2010)

I think it's a combination of design and presentation. If the fish see something that looks delicious, they may be too lazy to move for it. That's when the presentation comes to play - you've got to make that meal appear to be the most likely candidate for today's lunch. Twitch. Twitch. pause. Strip. Splash!


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## fontinalis (Mar 29, 2011)

any fly fished long enough will eventually become the right fly. I think presentation and size are the most important factors. Take an adams for example, it is not meant to immitate any specific insect. But it fishes well as just about any type of mayfly, just adjust the size.


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## copperdon (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm from the "presentation beats type-of-fly" camp.

In most cases, in my own experience, it's the _way_ the fly is laid down, along with _where_ the fly is laid down and *how it acts *once it is layed down that produces the greatest number of strikes.

If fish are hungry or aggressive enough, they'll strike at anything when it comes to pattern and color. I'm not saying that there aren't times when the type of fly and the color aren't important, because there are times when they definitely are -during particular hatches, or if baitfish are the target for the day, etc. 
But there have also been times when I've had trout rise and hit my strike indicator... and I know of no particular species of bug that is perfectly round, the size of a marble, floats _and_ is day-glo orange. LOL

And during spawning, you could pretty much drag a '52 Buick through a spawning bed and Red-Ears would _still_ be all over it - as long as you brought it thru in the right manner. 

IMHO, of course.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

It's definitely not an "all or nothing" type argument, both are factors but I think most of us agree that presentation is the bigger factor. I could perfectly present a #22 Griffith's Gnat to a 5lb bass, or a 1/0 bass bug to a stream brookie, and odds are they wouldn't eat it. As a matter of fact, the brookie seeing the bass bug would probably dart for a rock to hide under.


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

Anyone who thinks the fly type is more important than presentation and profile of fly, will be outfished by the person with the best presentation 90 percent of the time. I've spent my first 10 years steelheading trying to have the right fly all of the time. Now the last few years I'm concentrating on presentation, which makes all the difference. Especially on tough days. Now I use less flies, lose less flies and am having more fun. 

Case in point, wooly buggers work on many fish any day. Why? Presentation. And location of course, cuz the other part of this argument is that 90 percent of the fish are in 10 percent of the water.

You can too when presentation becomes your focus.

Thats just my opinion,
Rickerd


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

rickerd said:


> Case in point, wooly buggers work on many fish any day. Why? Presentation.



It seems odd to try to make the case for presentation over fly type by referring to how widely successful a particular fly is.


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## tractor5561 (Aug 17, 2008)

Andrew S said:


> It seems odd to try to make the case for presentation over fly type by referring to how widely successful a particular fly is.


its a generic fly IMO everyone fishes it or has fished it


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

If any one fly can work during so many situations and water types, you would think the fish are not fly selective. There are a number of flies that work in many places. Buggers, Clouser Minnows, Adams as mentioned before, prince nymph, Intruders, never leave home without them.


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

rickerd said:


> If any one fly can work during so many situations and water types, you would think the fish are not fly selective. There are a number of flies that work in many places. Buggers, Clouser Minnows, Adams as mentioned before, prince nymph, Intruders, never leave home without them.


Except that if that were true, ALL flies would work during so many situations.


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## tractor5561 (Aug 17, 2008)

rickerd said:


> If any one fly can work during so many situations and water types, you would think the fish are not fly selective. There are a number of flies that work in many places. Buggers, Clouser Minnows, Adams as mentioned before, prince nymph, Intruders, never leave home without them.


my thoughts exactly.... 

sunday i will be going back down south to the tailwater my little debate started on....me and a friend had been fishing streamers hard all day in the thick overcast skies. the cloud cover seems to sometimes do just enough to get the wary fish to actually chase streamers. at around 5pm the cloud cover broke and the september sky blasted through. it wasn't long before the water warmed and the hatch ensued. size 22-24 BWO's and lots of them. of course i had not brought my BWO box thinking it would somehow commit me to fishing my streamers. my friend had one sparsely tied #24 parachute BWO left and he intended to fish it. i rifled through my box and my buddy sorted through flies with me. among the hoppers and poppers the only dry pattern i had remotely close was a #18 quill gordon. my friend insisted over and over it would NOT work, he had tried them countless times. he then proceeded to skate his fly right over a fishes head, i looked up and said "ill take my chances". it wasnt long before i had 3 browns to hand. granted my friend is still learning, so his presentation game still has some niches none the less he catches fish and having a good fly selection never hurt....IMHO its when you get the two to work together the real magic begins. thanks for all the input!

here's a shot of the river currently haunting me down south......


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i dont fly fish, but i have to admit this has been a very interesting thread.
sherman


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

> Case in point, wooly buggers work on many fish any day. Why? Presentation. And location of course, cuz the other part of this argument is that 90 percent of the fish are in 10 percent of the water.



You just blew my mind.


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