# Tilapia, All Male Populations Have Gotten a Bad Rap



## fishandworms (Apr 20, 2013)

Hi All,
I'm a newcomer here. I'm not a fisherman, just a dum old truck driver who started raising Tilapia about 4 years ago and have come here to try and learn about ponds. Seems that alot of people here have them and know about them. 
I started out by breeding and raising mixed sex Blues for food. Did that for 2 years then switched to an all male population of Niles because my research showed that they grew at a much faster rate (they do). 
Last March, a couple of the local pond owners asked if they might try some of my fish in their ponds for weed control. I did some reading and long story short, in the last week of May we stocked their ponds with about 40 one pound fish per surface acre. They told their friends and I put an ad on Craigslist and by the end of June I had sold 850 of my 1000 one pound fish. I delivered them as far north of Columbus as route 30 (Dunkirk) and as far east as Medina. Some of the ponds had DW, but most had serious FA problems. 
I watched the ponds closest to home all summer. The DW was gone by the end of July but the FA was more difficult. I was not impressed. By the end of September however, it was a different story. The ponds were much clearer and you could actually see the bottom in the shallows. With unlimited food supply, the fish had grown to about 2 pounds and the bigger they get, the more they eat. It made me smile. They started to die off at the end of October. They would become lethargic and you would see them in the shallows sunning themselves. If you wanted to harvest them they could have been netted prety easily.
The moral of this story is that if your MAIN OBJECTIVE is to clean your pond, you should not completely discount a bunch of big fat male Tilapia. They don't spend their whole summer with a bunch of eggs in their mouth and they don't spend their whole summer foolin around with the girls. THE ONLY THING THEY HAVE TO DO IS WORK. If you want forage fish there are cheaper options.
If you have any interest in seeing my operation, you can search youtube for fishandworms channel, I have 16 videos there.
Steve.
http://www.youtube.com/user/fishandworms


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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

fishandworms, just curious how you are breeding the all male fish? Are you using the high dollar "super males" with regular female Niles?

I don't blame you but it seems like you're pushing the "males" kinda hard.


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## fishandworms (Apr 20, 2013)

hang_loose, 
Actually, since switching to the male Niles, I have been buying sex reversed, one gram fingerlings. 
The only reason I'm "pushing the males hard" is because every Tilapia thread that I have read here seems to push equally hard the idea that mixed sex Blue Tilapia is the ONLY approach that works in ponds. I admit fully that my experience is limited but seeing is believing and I can tell you that these fish do work. 
As far as the high dollar super males go, I do have a few breeding colonies ordered for mid January to experiment with. As with anything, the price comes down after time.
Thanks for the reply, Steve.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

After 3 consecutive years of tilapia in my pond I would not want anything but mixed sex stockings. 

Just too many benefits and I see no down side. The increased number of fish through the year handle the FA readily and it does not take until Sept to do the job.


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## fishandworms (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm not saying the mixes sex approach is wrong, I just don't believe it's the only way.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Lundy, keep an open mind here...

fishandworms may not be as far off as you may think. If you could stock 10-15 times the quantity of fingerling tilapia as you can buy mixed sex 4-6" for equal money I'd almost bet you would get better initial algae control and equal or better forage benefit. We're talking about hundreds of small fish vs. a few dozen larger fish. I was only getting a few spawns from my tilapia (as far as I could tell) and when the females are brooding, they're not eating. Consider how many of those pond-spawned fry make it bass forage size without being eaten by bluegill, insects larvae, yoy bass. If male only are growing 1/3 faster than females and we stock a much higher quantity of fish I don't see how this wouldn't transfer to more pounds of bass...not so much crappie but I think they would have a benefit from less pressure from bass on other available forage. Keep in mind we're talking Ohio spawning windows not Texas.

The price per pound the mixed sex "extra-special-temp.-tolerant-mountain" tilapia are commanding is ridiculous compared to market prices for male niles. Temp tolerances are negligible as maybe only gaining a few extra weeks of season and how much they're actually eating is questionable given their slowed metabolism. Male niles will double in weight every two months and can be raised at about half the cost of as fatheads making them a fairly good supplemental stocking option if a source was available not including the algae eating benefit.

I would be basically doing what fish and worms is doing if I had a place to do so. My basement isn't an option given the high humidity and smell such a system can potentially generate. I probably wouldn't go to the trouble of breeding but rather order broodstock from Aqua-manna and grow to stocking size over the winter when I have less outdoor chores to do. Males typically reach market weight in 8 or 9 months essentially doubling in weight every two months...it wouldn't take long or much space to grow a thousand to 3 or 4".

This may seem like I'm going against what I've said in the past but previous thinking was based on a much different cost for live fish than going rates.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

That is all good providing the cost difference is significant between males and mixed stock.


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## fishandworms (Apr 20, 2013)

Thank you for speaking my mind on a lot of points but I am curious about what makes Tilapia cheaper to raise than Fatheads? I really would like for you to educate me because I've been considering trying my hand at some Fatheads.
Thanks, Steve.


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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

fishandworms said:


> Thank you for speaking my mind on a lot of points but I am curious about what makes Tilapia cheaper to raise than Fatheads? I really would like for you to educate me because I've been considering trying my hand at some Fatheads.
> Thanks, Steve.


I'm curious also........Tropical vs non-tropical...

When the blues spawn, the babies do hide in the algae and other structure. And for as little as the young tilapia, they're quicker than lightning. These youngsters sit with their tail "cocked" like a rifle. Amazing how fast they can move. They're a lot smarter and faster than fatheads. They tear up the algae in my pond and when the water cools down, my walleye, bass and perch get fatter.


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## fishandworms (Apr 20, 2013)

OK, this is where we are apples and oranges, your talking about raising them in ponds and I'm talking about raising them in tanks with no preditors. Steve


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Wholesale market live weight tilapia is under $2/lb. In a proper setup (not RAS, sorry F&W) The cost of heating water is the biggest problem in Ohio. The problem with a RAS system for this purpose is lack of light+algae or duckweed=free food. In outdoor ponds, tilapia can grow a pound or more for every pound fed. In F&Ws recirc. system it's probably taking more than 2 pounds of premium feed to yield a pound of fish plus the significant cost of heating and the need to feed high quality feeds to keep from fouling the system increase costs a great deal. No offense F&W, your system is admirable and your system yields a higher quality fish for human consumption. 

$2/lb may sound remarkably cheap but how else are the grocery stores selling fillets for $2.99/lb retail when live weight only yields 40% fillets.

We have hundreds of acres of underutilized space in greenhouses all across ohio. They are heated and water is being pumped to irrigate growing beds. Why not create rows of tanks under these growing beds? Heat must be maintained for the plants and the water in the tanks will help store heat overnight. The vast amount of light will help grow algae and lower quality feeds can be utilized since taste of the fish and fouling of filters isn't a concern since this is a short term growing cycle of only a few months before the fish are stocked.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

www.youtube.com/embed/jV9CCxdkOng

Cost of delivery is another huge factor currently driving costs. Local small scale production is the key to offsetting these costs as well. 

I would like to see existing fish farms partner with nearby greenhouses. Fish farms have the know-how of growing fish and monitoring water quality. Green houses have the space, heat, and need for water with the added bonus of a little fertilizer and they are both sprinkled all over Ohio within driving distance of most pond owners.


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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

fishandworms said:


> OK, this is where we are apples and oranges, your talking about raising them in ponds and I'm talking about raising them in tanks with no preditors. Steve


My mistake Steve....... I missed the part about raising tilapias in tanks vs ponds. But I have done both & still do.

If you have a "pure" pond (no other fish in it), keep your fatheads out there. They can handle the cold weather. The hard part ($$$) is keeping the water warm & clean for the tilapia during this time of year. (the bigger they get, the more they ummm dirty the water)

Good Luck to you and anyone else who likes dealing with these fish (tilapia). Gotta have patience and a little time for these critters! A lot of people are using tilapia in their aquaponic (sp) systems at home.


fishandworms, had to come back and tell you excellent video and system you set up. Great job!!!

Just re-read this thread and I think I should be thanking [email protected] for posting the video... By the way, its in my favorite list!!!


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## keith_r (Jun 18, 2010)

i'm raising tilapia in tanks.. and to be honest, i'd rather have mixed sex.. i had some reproduction but the yellow perch and bluegill have kept them in check..
i've had niles and blue tilapia


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## Rainman (Feb 20, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Wholesale market live weight tilapia is under $2/lb. In a proper setup (not RAS, sorry F&W) The cost of heating water is the biggest problem in Ohio. The problem with a RAS system for this purpose is lack of light+algae or duckweed=free food. In outdoor ponds, tilapia can grow a pound or more for every pound fed. In F&Ws recirc. system it's probably taking more than 2 pounds of premium feed to yield a pound of fish plus the significant cost of heating and the need to feed high quality feeds to keep from fouling the system increase costs a great deal. No offense F&W, your system is admirable and your system yields a higher quality fish for human consumption.
> 
> $2/lb may sound remarkably cheap but how else are the grocery stores selling fillets for $2.99/lb retail when live weight only yields 40% fillets.
> 
> ...


Just read this thread and thought I'd chime in, albeit late...

In tank/food fish culture, a recirculating system is by far the most economical, yet total capacity is limited by how well it will remove the eventual nitrate load. Also, "premium feed" is by far the most highly converted "food to flesh" rate at a normal 1.2:1. Natural, or so-called "free food" is far from a complete diet that includes various essential minerals and other nutrients, and the conversion rate exceeds a 4:1 ratio. "Free Foods" are also often far from free in an indoor tank system (greenhouses reduce lighting expense).

Nilotica (Nile) Tilapia are the most common species for indoor food fish production. Nile's have a limited diet preference and reach sexual maturity months later than either Blue or Mozambique Tilapias (hybridization with blue/moz is common and can result in earlier sexual maturity). Sex reversal to all male gender is easiest on Niles.

The comparing of tank or pond culture is not easily made as there are wildly different needs. Tanks can be totally controlled, monitored and changed quickly for feeding and rapidly changing water qualities where ponds offer little or no quality control. Well monitored tank culture can produce about 20 times the pounds of fish a pond of equal water volume.

Blue Tilapia are the favored species in a smaller scale aquaponics system over Nile and Mozambique because Blues have the most varied diet, a higher tolerance to changing water conditions, fastest growth to 1.5 pounds and the most bland, white flesh of the 3 species mentioned.

Using Tilapia to sell as food fish, home raising aquaponics for personal table fare, and using Tilapia as management tool in a sport-fish pond are all VERY different operations with several opposing needs/goals.

A sport fish pond needs brood stock that can RELIABLY accomplish goals! Stocking several small (<4" fish is iffy, at best!! Most become an expensive snack within minutes, they are sexually immature and once mature, reproduce relatively few offspring till growing over a pound...This is a recipe for disaster IF you want reliable results...If you think all Tilapia are the same, or ONLY care about stocking costs...this is the way to go!

If you want reliable and predictable results, you stock an UNGRADED range of sizes of 6-12" brood stock. Brooders are stocked to produce offspring, in large numbers, fast. 

As an example, a single one pound Blue can grow to 3 pounds in a summer. If it consumes ONLY natural food at the earlier 4:1 ratio, it will consume only 12 pounds of food....multiply that by 40 pounds for the normal Ohio climate stocking rate and brooders consume only ~480 ponds of algae/detritus in total Stock 100 two inch fish that will grow about a pound, and only 400 pounds is consumed. That is assuming the small fish survive the initial stocking...adult fish will survive. Add to that, the adult fish reproduce in much higher numbers, reliably and the surviving smaller fish produce FAR fewer offspring, later in the growing season, and the total nutrient consumed by small brooders is but a fraction of the weight adults consume.

Oh, and your predator fish that will eat those small stocker in spring and spend a season hungry, will munch at will all season if you stock adults properly.

Saving $50 bucks up front sounds nice, until you look at what happens once you decide a goal to reach. That $50 will cost you hundreds, if not thousands in value in terms of muck reduction, algae control, forage fish produced and feed costs reduced.

If you want $2/lb Tilapia food fish, or spotty, unpredictable pond management results go to the grocery store and get an Asian or Central American inport, or your local hobby grower that has no clue what species or expenses they have.... If you want a Tilapia in your pond that get real, reliable, goal tailored results, without guesses, crappy results or money risk, you won't find Tilapia anywhere near that price....

The greenhouse video is nice, yet if you calculate the capital costs to buil those greenhouses and all the equipment, plant boxes, plumbing, tanks, labor, electricity, taxes, etc....It will be 30+ years before the "cost per pound" of tilapia drops below $2/lb


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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

Welcome back Rainman! Good info.


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