# A brief history of American carp



## The Kernel

Following some of the recent discussions on this forum I thought this brief history by Brian Nordberg may be of interest to some:

The "Trash Fish Label" is a bit of mistaken Cause and Effect.

Back during the industrialization of America, natural water ways were being diverted, dammed, drained, and polluted. This coupled with freshwater commercial fishing lead to the not so surprising situation of declining natural fish stocks. The US goverment was well aware of the problem. After much research, they decided that one solution to the problem was to import and stock Cyprinus Carpio - aka Carp.

There reasoning was that carp were hardy enought to survive the less than ideal conditions men had created. Additionally, carp could produce plenty of protein on very little sustenance. Finally, the large immigrant communities were hungry for a taste of home.

So, the US government set about on one of the most successful stocking programs in history. In the 1890's German fish were imported and stocked as brood stock in ponds near Washington DC and MD. From there shipments were made upon request to virtually every congressional district in the USA. People asked, and the gov't provided.

Then a couple of things happened. Water quality due to pollution, fertilizers, and altered water ways continued to decline. People began to notice that in some cases the only survivors were carp. Instead of admiring the carp's tenacity and mending our own ways, Americans began blaming carp for the problem of declining native fish stocks. Not too logical since carp were a response to the problem rather than the cause of the problem.

A second event deepened the perception. The invention of refridgerated shipping. Before this event, fish were mostly a local fresh food item. After this invention, salt water species could be caught hundreds of miles away and provided to the country's interior in an edible state. Needless to say, the freshwater commercial fisheries took a huge hit as diets turned from local fresh water fish like carp and buffalo to tasty saltwater products like salmon, flounder, etc.

It was not long before a stigma was attached to carp. Being nearly the sole survivor of man's abuse, they were blamed for displacing more desireable species. It mattered not that the waters in question were often incapable of now supporting the favored species.

Those who could not afford fancy fish shipped from the sea, would continue to eat local fare like carp. It was not long before folks began using carp consumption as yet another racial stereotype.

Politicians being quick to recognize a scapegoat, were more than happy to decry the evil carp, especially since it helped avoid blame for industrial pollution, agricultural run off, excessive irrigation, channelization, etc. etc.

Without an advocate to defend her, the Queen of the Rivers (as noted by Izaak Walton) came to be regarded as a scourge, a pest, a "TRASHFISH."

Once ingrained in the culture, such labels are hard to shed. I see it continuing yet today...
A man and his son are enjoying a warm spring afternoon fishing worms for bass or catfish or walleye or whatever. Suddenly, the little boy's pole doubles over. For about 10 minutes all is joy. Dad smiling, Jr. squealing with glee. Then a large golden flank roles near the surface and a pair of fleshy orange lips poke above the water.

Father's face falls. F'ing carp. Too bad. It's so ugly. Junior now doesn't know whether to be happy or sad about this, the grandest fish he has ever caught. Taking his cues from dad, he spits on the fish and curses it. Dad tells him to throw it in the bushes and they get back to catching their intended, smaller fish. Lesson Learned.

Scroll forward a few years and Jr. signs on the a place like the TFF. Carp are mention and Jr has a visceral negative reaction.

Such a scenario will not quickly change. However, there are an increasing number who have discovered that all is not as it appears. Join the fun, become a part of the "Carp Brigade."


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## TheKing

Interesting read. I have also read that the reason they were planted was for a primary food source.


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## RiverRat

Heres more:copied from the CAG site....

Perhaps you have heard that carp, which is an exotic species not native to North America, have by accident invaded our game fish waters. You may have heard that the carp of today are descended from fish that 'escaped' from private stocks or were illegally introduced by unauthorized persons. How is it then that carp are found in almost every state and in waters hundreds of miles apart from each other. The reason is because the U.S. Fish Commission and almost every one of the state governments in our land undertook one of the greatest far reaching campaigns to establish the carp everywhere in our country. Let me explain. 

Prior to 1900, native North American fish were viewed as vital natural resources. Most of the fish we regard today as sport fish were harvested commercially by the millions of pounds. They were shipped by rail to markets where they were an important food source for a growing population. This was before the advent of refrigeration and communities relied on 'ice house' preservation. Harvested were the basses, sunfish, crappies, pike, walleye, perch, lake trout, and sturgeon. Also coarse fish such as freshwater drum, buffalo fish, catfish, suckers, bullheads and others. 

The results of large harvests were declining stocks of lake and river fishes at a time when the population was expanding. To answer these concerns the U.S. Congress authorized President Ulysses S. Grant to appoint the US Fish Commission in 1871 to oversee the nation's fisheries interests. Among the first tasks was to consider what species to introduce to bolster the nations supply of food fishes. By 1874 the commission after long study issued a report entitled "Fishes Especially worthy of Cultivation" It went on to say that no other species except the carp, promises so great a return in limited waters. Cited were advantages over such fish as black bass, trout, grayling and others " because it is a vegetable feeder, and although not disdaining animal matters can live on vegetation alone and can attain large weight kept in small ponds and tanks". 

In 1876 the commission enumerated other good qualities such as high fecundity (a count of ripe eggs in the female fish), adaptability to artificial propagation, hardiness of growth, adaptability to environmental conditions unfavorable to equally palatable species, rapid growth, harmlessness in relation to fish of other species, ability to populate waters to it's greatest extent, and fine table qualities. By 1877 citing the above reasons and adding 'there is no reason why time should be lost with less proved fishes' the commission convinced of the value of carp imported 345 fishes of scaled, mirror and leather carp from German aquaculturists. On May 26th they were placed in the Druid Hill Park ponds in Baltimore Maryland. The ponds proved inadequate and some were transferred to the Babcock lakes on the monument lot in Washington, D.C. 

So did they somehow escape from these confines to populate nearly everywhere? No. Now the state governments get involved. Records indicate in 1879, about 6.203 fingerlings were produced in the Babcock Lakes. These were shipped to 273 applicants in 24 states. About 6000 fingerlings were produced in the Druid Hill ponds that year and were stocked primarily in Maryland. One year later, 31,332 carp were shipped to 1,374 applicants. In 1882 carp production increased to 143,696 fish, distributed in small lots to 7,000 applicants. In 1883 about 260,000 carp were sent to 9,872 applicants in 298 of 301 congressional districts and into 1,478 counties. During the years 1879-1896 the US Fish Commission distributed 2.4 million carp, some of which were sent to Canada, Costa Rica, Ecuador and Mexico. By 1897 the Commission discontinued the stocking because carp had been distributed nearly everywhere and many states assumed the task of propagation and stocking of carp.

Within several years many states were involved in the propagation and stocking of millions of carp. The Ohio State Fish Commission stocked tributaries of Lake Erie. Every major river in Illinois was stocked. Fish rescue missions from 1890-1920 conducted by various states and the US fish Commission stocked hundreds of lakes and rivers, particularly into the Midwestern region of the US. In a few short years the effort to introduce the resource of carp had been successful. Newspapers and magazines lauded the importance to the food industry and the bright future of all citizens eating carp. 

Commercial production started in the 1900's. During the decade after World War II, annual catches reached 36 million pounds. Many prominent restaurants and hotels served carp on the menu. Restaurants of the Waldorf and Astoria listed "Carp in Rhine Wine Sauce"

Following World War II the saltwater commercial fishing industry captured a major portion of the fishing market by consolidating and modernizing operations This resulted in tremendous productions of ocean fish and improvements in processing, packaging ,shipping and storage and a reduction in operating costs. At a time when the oceans were perceived as pure and our rivers were becoming polluted, contributed among other factors to the decline of carp as a food fish. 

History demonstrates that the federal and state governments of the US undertook a massive effort to install the carp in all of our waters from coast to coast in an effort that no other country has ever embarked upon. History also indicates that American anglers in great numbers lead the world today in the history of carp angling since the earliest turn of the century. Generations of anglers have enjoyed the carp as a sport or food fish. History also indicates that the carp found in our many waters did not escaped the ponds of long ago carp farmers, as the myth is told, but were placed carefully for our angling benefit by thoughtful government agencies. 

Bye:
Al Kowaleski 
CAG Historian



Scott


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## Mushijobah

nice private reports....i think the last line sums up the amount of scientific legitimacy and time spent checking and back-checking research these guys did for their "official historic carp report".




> Bye:Al Kowaleski
> CAG Historian


    
(ps if you guys didn't notice, you should use by)

I like how no scientific discoverys of how carp started destroying waterways were included. If it were a full history, it would touch on the after effects of introduction also.
Like I said in the other post....everyone is going to sound official as they can but it all comes down to if it is actually official or not. This report was stemmed off of pure emotion, totally ignoring the scientific method. Sounds like something PETA would write judging by the amount of biased (non scientific) opinons!


PS I can't wait to see how many red faced carp anglers jump the gun and attack this due to their emotions....RELAX GUYS, I DON'T KILL CARP WHEN I CATCH THEM (anymore), I HAVE LEARNED IT WILL NOT HELP THE PROBLEM OF LARGE LAKE AND RIVER CARP OVERPOPULATIONS! Now if you take me to twin lakes in east columbus, two ponds destroyed by carp, I will have no problem using them as fertilizer!


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## RiverRat

No truthfully Mush, you can post an thing you see fit....not that we actually read it or care..LMAO.

Go play in the other areas, you blend in better there..lol.

Scott

PS, im not red faced, more like a light pink from LOL at your posts.


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## PAYARA

Obviosly you don't know what your saying.This was never meant 
as a statistc to proove how great the carp is!This was a write up 
provided to CAG memebers,and CAG members only!If you read it,
you could clearly see that its to do with the first stockings of 
carp in this country,and detailing the reasons why they were 
stocked!Nothing more!.

Iam are open to ALL ''scientic evidence'' to support your claims!

But don't come in here,with what you think your going to proove
to us,with statistics 'prooving' negative effects carp have had
on our water systems.As theres just as many statistics that 
contradict them!

Oh,BTW Mush,Iam still laughing at your other post  The one
in which you state that you prooved us 'wrong' before!...LOL
PLEASE!........I don't recall it????  

I do recall when you tried to pass a fish of 9lbs as 19lbs though


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## TheKing

Guys, it might be best to cite some reporting in conflict with The Kernal's citation. Your personal comments and opinions really don't contain any convincing argument and are absolutely a waste of disk memory. This is an interesting thread topic; why confound it with your BS?


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## tpet96

I have to back Rat up on this one. The original article by Al Al Kowaleski cited sources for his claims and information indicated in his article. Parts of that particular article were used....with the sources....by DNR's in their publications.


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## RiverRat

Thanks Shawn,
Al has done a tremendous amount of research in finding out about the ORIGINAL stocking of the US GOVERMENT back in the late 1800's....his write up is a SHORT summary of this stocking program and explains how carp came to the USA and where the original "stocks" were released.
Its NOT BS or anything scientific....it is a mere write up of the HISTORY in the USA..thats all.

So there is no need to try to prove it wrong or whatever, the research hes found is FACT and come directly from the US game & fish..so contact them and tell them they are wrong.
Reason i posted it here is because the title is " A brief history of American carp " and my post went along with it.

Scott


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## Mushijobah

WOW Looks like I got a few red faces  !  Don't worry guys. I took it wrong. I was getting the vibe you were once again trying to stress to non believers that carp are actually good for our waterways. I guess I was wrong. Thanks for posting the brief stocking history though, the FULL history of carp in N. America has been posted many times and I guess I really enjoyed reading about how primitive the governments natural resource areas were back then. I believe cocaine was in coca cola and morphine was an over the counter occurrence back then....now I know what influenced them to stock carp into our waters! 

My 19 LB carp :B  We already discussed relating sizes of objects(me) in pictures to other objects(trash fish  ). Riverrat knows all about this technique when he posts his fish, lol . Need we discuss that?










PS Ive been meaning to ask you river rat, are you interested in my truck, price reduced.


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## RiverRat

Nah, personally wouldnt buy it since i knew it was vandalized at Greenlawn last summer..plus i wouldnt buy it from you, even at a reduced price, but thanks for asking!

"Riverrat knows all about this technique when he posts his fish"..actually for your info. , i carry a very accurrate digital scale and measuring tape everywhere i go....im pretty good at guessing weights of the species i chase, + or - 2 lbs....but if i posted a fish weighed such and such and measured such and such inches, believe it..the scale and measuring tape would humble those who dont use it!!

Got to love the haters..i know i do, good for a LOL atleast anyway.

Scott


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## Mushijobah

you are so good at guessing, you need a gold star!


didn't think so about the truck either, regardless of the seller...cash is tight these days, i understand


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## BottomBouncer

It seems again the carp is being used as a scapegoat.....

Examples on once great fisheries that are no longer and the carp had NOTHING to do with it....

The "Twin Lakes" you mentioned. Once FULL of large crappie....not uncommon to catch multiple 15" fish. Plenty of LM's in the 3lb. range and higher, let alone you could catch dozens of bass each trip.
People have gone in there and left all their trash and took all the fish they could catch... The carp, along with all the other fish were more than likely residents of the creek.....they are came in the same way, creek floods...fish come in, waters drop...fish are stuck. The reason the carp population is high is because NO ONE EATS THEM. If they have the same rep as bass or crappie, there would be no fish in there except dink 'gils.

Greenlawn. Just the name has the rep for being a stinky, sewage filled dump. If the fish couldn't go down stream and they were stuck in the general tailwater area, they'd all be dead, dying or diseased. The carp didn't put the over flow water in there....didn't eat mcdonalds and discard the trash into the water and it surely didn't take home all the crappie, bass, saugeye and catfish it could carry.......

Griggs tailwaters. Same story without nearly as much polution.

For someone to blame the carp for our waterway/fishing issues is just stupid.


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## The Kernel

(frowns.....impatiently taps fingers on desk)


Still waiting for some Science.......


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## BottomBouncer

Kernel, are you being sarcastic? Can't tell


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## The Kernel

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm over dramatising to restate the need in this thread for science not conjecture....


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## BottomBouncer

Oh...couldn't tell.

What's the need for science in a situation like this? It seems quite clear to me that the human population(not just anglers) have the biggest impact on the waterways and what inhabits them. 

This seems about like that study that some Phd did that came to the conclusion that men's brains are different than women's brains. Did someone really need to do a scientific study to draw that conclusion????

Do you really need science to tell you that carp are not the end all to the other fish in the sea?

It would be nice if some facts did pop up though... I'll do some searching myself...


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## The Kernel

BottomBouncer said:


> This seems about like that study that some Phd did that came to the conclusion that men's brains are different than women's brains. Did someone really need to do a scientific study to draw that conclusion????



LOL!!! Agreed....


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## Mushijobah

Bottombouncer, you are mixed up with the twin lakes. I am not talking about JCC lakes, I am talking about TWIN LAKES on college avenue before it turns into 33 out of bexley. The creek has never rose that high to get into them, the dam is about 50 feet above creek level. 

Also, sadly, in science classes as early as highschool teachers and prof.'s have been teaching and giving examples of what common carp can do and do to our streams. You may not have experienced this when you were in highschool back then  but you certainly have heard it if you have taken any environmental classes at OSU, I sure have. As a fisherman, you are not a scientist meaning you take things in and assume it's natural. Being educated scientificly helps you realize "Ah, so that is why my stream looks like crap" or "Ah, that is why there is very little aquatic vegitation in alum creek".


Here are some links of how carp altered our streams and lakes for good. Keep in mind carp guys, I love carp fishing, but be honest with yourselfs. Science/the Govt./Universitys know carp screwed our streams up and you are ignoring the truth. Sound like you are the parents of a misfit kid who doesnt want to believe little Johnny threw a huge party at your house when you went to Mexico  .


http://www.elektrik-sheep.com/story/EpFkEAlplEsiMHPDAE.shtml

http://www.afsifs.vt.edu/

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/EXOTICSP/related_links.htm

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/EXOTICSP/links/general_web_sites.htm#ippp

http://www.great-lakes.net/envt/flora-fauna/invasive/carp.html

I'm sure there are more now, these are from when I argued about carp last time  Still, men romantic with their carp will not listen.

Oh and here is the thread where this was discussed before.
http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14531&page=2&highlight=dead+carp


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## Mushijobah

Heres more I just found on my lunch break:

http://www.bellmuseum.org/invasive_carp.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carp

www.eih.uh.edu/research/gbisa/Cyprinus carpio - common carp.pdf 

http://floridafisheries.com/Fishes/non-native.html

http://nis.gsmfc.org/nis_factsheet.php?toc_id=183

http://carpbusters.com/profiles/ccarpio.php

http://www.iisgcp.org/EXOTICSP/carp.htm

Heres even a job, you guys should apply!

http://www.fisheries.org/html/jobs/job3269.htm


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## BottomBouncer

Regarding the job opportunity at the bottom of your list. MAYBE...and this is a BIG maybe.....if people were consuming carp at the same rate that they consume, take pictures of and mount all the other fish....there wouldn't be an "over population".

Funny, the fish once used to fix problems and feed people is on the hit list.


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## Mushijobah

Lol I wish more people at them! It would cull some of the smaller population. Now to make myself sound crazier than you guys already think....carp tastes very good! I am dead serious too. The big scales are the only downside. I found ones 3-7 pounds tasted the best. Anyone else tried it?


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## Shortdrift

I have had carp caught out of Erie on the reefs and they were acceptable, but I prefer walleye, perch or crappie.


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## RiverRat

Man this threads still open...?



"didn't think so about the truck either, regardless of the seller...cash is tight these days, i understand"
Actually NO, cash aint tight at all, i made $69k in 2005, just didnt want to waste needless money on a brand new truck, reason im looking to buy used..2000-2004 model.
I can afford to buy which one i want, from WHO i want..if i dont like the seller, i dont care what the prices is..and again considering its been broken into (saw the pics you posted before), i'll pass for sure. Remember im not some fresh out of high school KID who's low on cash......just received $4k back on my taxes and received $3k in bonus check from work...so i will be buying a truck with CASH, dont like payments at all.

Good luck with the truck sale..

Scott


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## Mushijobah

Lol wow man....you ARE rich! I hope they have Chief Press Mechanic Science at OSU, I sure would like to change majors..HA. Hey man, I wasn't inferring that you were poor or anything with my comment. I assumed cash was tight, it is for many people. Seeing how you are such a big spender though, you may want to be careful and back-check your pay vs. spending. There was a pretty good rap group back in the 90's, Cash Money Millionaires, you should e-mail Juvenile or something to try and get in that, I'm sure they would love having a guy like you to write about their multi-"k" salaries and big bad late model trucks. People who brag about money like it sounds you enjoy doing are usually kids themselves. You remind me of the days back at Bexley Middle School with all the rich kids talking about all they have! PS this thread is still going because you are just so fun to rag on! Jokingly of course. :B . I am not officially done and cannot wait to see your last word....Don't worry guys, this entertainment will surly come up again seeing it is FREEZING out and no fishing is occurring!


Truck still is for sale guys....$6500 OBO...it will get more attention here one the carp forum than on the classifieds forum.


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## Mushijobah

I forgot to mention, I apologize for not keeping such a comical thread like this strictly to the Lounge forum.


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## DaleM

No fishing??? Try ice fishing, it opens a whole new world. After 40 years of being away from ice fishing I tried it again. With all the new tackle just for ice fishing it is a real blast. As in anytype fishing don't knock it until you try it. Also I will add--This thread will stay open as long as it stays civil.


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## RiverRat

Actually, i guess your one of those hope'in to take a few courses at OSU and come out making 100K the first year huh?
$70k must not sound much to someone with such and education...i have only a high school ed. and have about trippled my hourly pay in those 9 yrs.....and the "ladder" at my work is long and i can advance quickly...in another 9 yrs i hope to be making the cash you only dream of young man..cant wait til you get in the "real" world and see...get married have a few kids and lets see how much YOU are making...LMAO.

Good luck at OSU, by the quality of your science knowlege and college level writing abilitys i say you'll go very far in life.

And too, there ARE plenty of fish to be caught right now in the freezing cold...guess those college science classes didnt teach you that either, huh?
I'll be out catching a few Monday, would ask if you want to join me....but i see your far to smart for a guy like myself....LMAO!


Gotta love kids!!

Scott


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## RiverRat

Ah, i say close it Dale as i dont see with the youngsters around it will get better...my $.02 worth....but i'll stop posting on this thread to keep it open for the other guys.....

Hey Mush,if ya want to sling anymore BS....drop me a pm or something.

Scott


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## Mushijobah

I would like to see you even try to be outside where I am right now! 23 degrees with wind-chill of 11! Gusts up to 20! Probably about 5 inches of snow! I love to ice fish for bluegill/crappie in ponds, that actually reminds me, hey Riverat, can I get a loan to buy an auger?  Being in college is nice because you get the opportunity to be in a job that is actually enjoyable and you don't have to work grueling hours being a press mechanic (Im just guessing it's pretty bad), lumberjack, or grease monkey. You are right, I am a youngster. when you were getting your drivers license, getting beat up by bullys, or getting cut from the basketball team (just guessing), I was seeing first light of our beautiful world! I appreciate your 'good luck at OSU', really sincere. I would also love to fish with you at one of your spots sometime, that would be so much fun! You can hold all my fish in your stance, and I will fabricate the massive number we use to tell all the OGF guys how many we caught! Honestly, I would like to fish with you sometime. Despite our differences, I believe you will find me to be a much nicer guy than you think. When I get online though, I just love typing and arguing with people. I got an A- on my argument paper last semester of English 110.01. The damn English prof. didnt like my views and bashings of Democrats/liberal agenda in general and would not accept that Fox News was a no-spin network! Oh well, it was just a theory  . I do not want to get into any arguments in a PM, I feel they are good entertainment and the rest of the guys might like to read them. But seriously, this summer, when not FREEZING, we should go down on the river at one of your or my 'spots' (mine right around circleville) and fish for some big cats or carp. You can try eating carp for the first time (i'll bring the warm milk and Kleenex) and I will admit being a press mechanic is a pretty sweet deal. :T


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## RiverRat

LMAO...LMAO..sorry Dale...i have to before ya close this one!!

First off, out of everyone that i know who actuaaly WORKS for a living 40+ hrs a week, i have the best sced.
I work 12 hr days..4 days on/ 4 days off ratating sced...YES that right, if you figure it up in your genius brain, i work only HALF a year for that little piddly $70k last year....i get to go fishing EVERY week if i wish,even out of state trips , as you see i have 2 boys(10 & 12) and a wife that doesnt work....she lets me go whenever i feel the need to go fishing..since she has a comfortable job being a house wife and i take care of them very well.....new house, paid CASH for her van..plenty of money in the bank so she can go shopping whenever.

Ya see i used to work very hard, see METAL is much heavier than LUMBER..and setting up a Draw ReDraw press that puts out 770 can a min. or and End press that puts out 1452 ends per min. takes percission and being able to measure things and set machines up to a 1/10th of a thousand clearance..yes thats 0.001 in.
Not little bubble gum machines...150 ton machines that will kill you ...but im now a CHIEF press machnic and over see change overs, over hauls, ect. I no longer have to bust my butt turning wrenches ..only bust the butts of the 7 mechanics and 5 operators that work FOR me!!


So enjoy your monday-friday job.....and good luck with that Lowes job..i hear they pay VERY well in the lumber yard.

Scott


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## Mushijobah

If I wanted to "go the ladder" at Lowes, store managers make around 120k a year not including bonus pay which can be MORE than your yearly salary. 60 hours a week is no cake job though, as you would know. Plus, knowing your in a pretty uninteresting job is pretty depressing. The glory of college is that you do not have to work such crazy hours and still make good amounts of money doing what you like and not what you are forced to being blue collar. I'm glad you have time for fishing, how about your family? Working 40 hours a week (you DO work more than that a week if you can do the math) means you technically work about 1/4 of the year. I will throw out an example of a job where you work 35 hours a week (mon-fri) for 180 days a year (that is about half a year if you didnt know) and start out at around 40k annual with an annual raise increase of about 3-4% depending on district with GREAT benefits. That is 910/8760 hours in a year actually worked (about 10% compared to your 25% of a year). I know quite a few individuals making 70k a year NOW after 20 years. Yes, teaching, 180 days in a school-year if you didn't know (you have kids, you probably should). Can't do that without a degree now can ya. Not a very backbreaking or grueling profession either if you ask a teacher, actually very fulfilling and exciting. I know you think helping people learn about how life works and the wonders of our world is much less fulfilling than telling people to cut steel all day, but some people dont think so. Looks like you learn something new everyday huh Rat. Hey, I would be a good teacher telling you all this stuff! Now on my last post, I wanted to leave on a nice note and will do it again (I know it is hard to forgive a devilish whipper snapper like me, but try  ). Are we fishing this summer or not, no hard feelings either?!


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## DaleM

yep your right. Scott you do have a good paying job that's true but don't ever for a minute think you make more than everyone else on here. You may really surprised what some of us really make. I retired 12 years ago from the fire dept making more than you do now. Also remember we, including you had to start somewhere, no one starts at $70,000 a year. My first real job was as an E-1 in the AirForce before you were thought of. My pay was $87.50- a month, yes a month! I got married had my son and bought a nice car on that. 4 years later when I was discharged I was making $368.00 a month. I doubled my pay when I joined the fire dept. Remember also I was on a very large Fire Dept. not a small town dept. A capt. on the Cols. Fire Dept. now makes over $90,000 a year, plus overtime if they want it. and they only work 1/3 of a year.. But they really do work hard for that. So enough of how rich you are or how well you have it. I'm glad for you honestly, but as I said I am sure there are many on here that make a lot more than than you do. Yes even that person that works for Lowes has to start somewhere. For all my years of work I too have a nice house, (paid for) 2- new vehicles (paid for) a place in Canada ( paid for) way to many toys ( paid for) so as you see with hard work everyone can get there too. Oh, I'm not 35 years old I passed that a long time ago. So again, don't put someone down for trying to make a good life for themselves. Not everyone wants to work in a factory some want to complete college and do other things. That my friend is what makes the world go around. With that this thread is closed. How you turned this thread from history of carp to how much more you make than others is beyond me. But you did get it closed as you said you would.


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## misfit

first things first.............my sincere apologies for closing this thread without the appoval of river rat.

scott,since you were so upset with me closing another thread without giving you the opportunity to get the last word,and you told me in your last pm,that i need not reply because you wouldn't read it,i'm posting here.you and i both know the claims you made in that pm are false,and you can't blame anyone but yourself for your attitude.either chnge that attitude,or find somewhere else to run your mouth.you have been given more breaks here by others than you would have gotten from me,so think about that.

now for the second thing.this thread was about "the history of carp".and to me it was very interesting,even though i've read most of the content before.but some may not have,and they should receive some respect,and be allowed to read it without having to filter through all the bs about advertising trucks for sale(which belongs in the market place)who makes how much money,who has what type education,or anything else that does not pertai to the original topic of the thread.
so let this be my final warning to those who choose to continue the nonsense that doesn't pertain to the original topic.i will close this thread if anymore personal or inflamitory/argumentative remarks are posted .
and if anyone thinks that's not fair,please feel free to pm me.but if you choose not to read my reply to you because you think it's unafir that you can't have the last word,as river rat does,don't waste your,or my time.


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