# Question....



## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

The Scioto River holds a good population of Mirror strain carp, but does anyone on here actually think they are Israeli strain carp, do they???????

Israeli carp are mostly used as a BAIT fish for catfisherman and are not to be confused with true _Cyprinus_ _carpio_ Common, Mirror or Leather Carp.
Israeli carp grow fast, but have a small top end size. 
I cant see how our river was flooded with a bunch of true Israeli carp, the Mirror carp are among the original carp strains stocked in Ohio and found their way into our rivers and streams.
Heres a link to a picture in my photo album, look at Ohio in 1884-1885, these are the original strains of the carp we fish for now.
http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=11633&sort=1&cat=500&page=1


Species of different "carp".
Bighead carp:_Aristichthys nobilis_ 
Grass Carp(white Amur):_Ctenopharygodon idellus_ 
Silver Carp:_Hypophthalmichthys_ _molitrix_ 
White crucian carp:_Carassius cuvieri_
Common Carp:_Cyprinus_ _carpio_ 
Also known as carp, German carp, mirror carp, Israeli carp.

Who in here thinks that the Mirror carp you catch out of the Scioto river are truely Israeli mirror carp?? or is this just a wrong name used to just describe mirror carp?

Scott


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## PAYARA (Apr 7, 2004)

I personally believe they some of these mirrors from the 
Scioto ARE of different stock!Maybe Isreali,maybe not!But,I 
have never seen carp with the sort of body shape that some 
of those mirrors have!Its distinctly different!I believe that the 
fish Tim has had in that pond are DEFINATELY a different strain!
Theres no question IMO.

The real question is what are these 'different' carp doing there 
or how did they get there?They could have been bait released 
into the river?Or it could all be to do with genes,ect which I don't 
know ALOT about!But its funny that its only that one stretch of 
river that these oddly shaped mirrors occur???Or seem to be caught 
the most?But yet theres been normal shaped mirrors caught in the 
same stretch?I think the 'bait' thoery may hold water?Maybe 'bait 
carp' mixed with the 'wild' carp ?


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

the one bigchessie caught at cosi was most definitely an israeli carp.. that was used for bait.. actually.. i saw quite a few mirras caught from scioto this year.. all are healthy too.. none was more beautiful than miso's, bigcheesie's, and mark's.. lucky dogs..


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

If you look at an Israeli carp(bait kind) the scales look like a "mirror" carp. There are all types of carpish fish...not too hard to imagine them having interacial relations is it?

Look at the giant koi that was posted(the one that they claimed to have ate) Where'd that monster come from? It had to be every bit of 15lbs. or pretty close....


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

by the way.. the fish that bigchessie caught i can guarantee you that it was once someone's bait.. so does tim's fish..


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Did it have a notch in it's back where a hook had once resided?


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## dinkbuster1 (Oct 28, 2005)

y'know guys i was thinking the same thing when i first seen your pics of mirrors. i knew a lot of guys who would buy the israelis and dump them in the river when it was time to go home. i have never seen a mirror over here in the gmr, doesnt mean there arent any though. not many carpers over here.


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

yes..they both got scars on each side ..


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## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

Good points Greg, im confused nmyself and looking for ideas or answers.
I know many have caught lots of Mirrors from the stretch your speaking of...but i caught these out of the Scioto MANY miles away from that "popular" 
stretch...this other spots has some impressive numbers of Mirrors.

A quote from Brian N.

"Assume the Isreali carp have been bred to grow quickly to a marketable weight with minimal cost to the aquaculturist. Does this mean that the Isreali strain will achieve massive final weights? Not necessarily, it just means they will probably reach 5 to 10 lbs pretty quickly. Their ultimate weight potential could very well be inferior to the existing strains of carp already stocked. "

































Now are ALL of these tall body, short length fish Israeli carp? When i think of Israeli carp i think of those carp ya buy from a bait shop for catfishing...NOT a common carp? Am i missing something here?

Scott


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## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

Also, smaller carp, goldfish, ect used as baits when they were 4-8" certainly would not have much of a scare towards their tails from the old hook wound when they are 17-25 lbs.

How many guys truely know catfisherman outside of pay ponds that use Israeli carp as bait?....its normally a pay pond thing, almost all catfisherman along the Scioto river in Columbus either use store bought baits like nightcrawlers or chicken livers, or they catch their own baits like Creek chubs, bluegills, suckers, ect.

For the population in that river to be as strong as it is....i think its a genetic strain..not some Israeli pond carp.

And YES i do agree that Tims Mirror carp are probably True Israeli strain carp.

I need to do some research on the I-net and find out more about these Israeli carp that are sold in baitshops.



Scott


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

dang dood.. that first one's belly is saggin..lol
my definition of israeli is the same as yours tho.. the ones you buy from the baitshop.. not common carp..


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## crappielooker (Apr 5, 2004)

about the scars.. i guess you would just have to see it.. 
tell ya what.. go get one of them.. put a hook through its back like how they would use them.. take it to your brother's koi pond and wait.. i wanna know too..   
all i'm saying is.. those fish aren't getting big by being stupid.. i'm sure they could have come from anywhere because the river does flood all the time.. think of all the little ponds close to that river..


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## dinkbuster1 (Oct 28, 2005)

israeli carp arent just a pay-lake bait, i see river fishermen using them quite a bit. they are good for bait but no better than a healthy sunfish. also you have to be an IDIOT to pay $13 a dozen for bait! thats what they go for around here, bigger ones (4-6 inch) are even higher. while im here i wanna say that i really enjoy reading your guy's posts, your by far the most active on here from what ive seen and have the best material. (Riverrat, PAYARA) you two need you own carp show lol.


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## The Kernel (Jul 11, 2005)

My Scioto mirror I classify as 'Israeli' simply because it seems to have a different shape and more intense colours than the more 'traditional' mirrors that we catch. I agree that what might be revealing of their origin is the fact that there are notable 'scars'...

I lived in Israel for more than a year...and worked on a carp farm for a few days..so I've seen a few of 'em...


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

Come to think of it, "mirrors" could be a genetic thing. This would explain a large population is certain pools/stretches of river. Ofcourse, some would get out do to flooding, but the areas being talked about are fairly large stretches of river. So, these fish continually breeding, creating more mirrors would naturally have a higher population in certain areas.

As far as I know, the popular metro stretch isn't fished too often with israeli's...


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## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

Ak, i see what your saying...and you might be on to something? But the amount of Mirror Carp in the Scioto is pretty impressive for a regular river IMO.

dink, thanks.....but no way i would do a show with Greg..hes too "hot tempered" for me .
Yea the prices for goldfish and Israeli carp are outrageous....but to each is own i guess.
Ok, so say they are Israeli carp...that would have to be a LOT of bait dumped into a RIVER to produce the kind of numbers we are seeing, ya know?

As dink said.."i knew a lot of guys who would buy the israelis and dump them in the river when it was time to go home. i have never seen a mirror over here in the gmr, doesnt mean there arent any though".
So does anyone think if hes not seeing any mirrors there even though anglers ARE dumping them into that river..should they be showing up more often.

I just cant see the scioto being full of mirror carp that have come from private ponds, left over baits from anglers, ect.

Now what is your guys take on full scaled or mirror carp that are long and lean like most common carp are...are these the only TRUE genetic Mirror carp in our waters???

I think the Mirrors caught out of the Scioto look no different than the massive Mirrors caught over in Europe, Germany, ect...well except for over all weight...but the scale patterns, two-tone skin look and body shape are the same...what do you guys think?

Scott


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## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

What about all the other Mirror carp in the US..? Even the big fat, round Euro looking ones..are they Israeli too?

Links to some great Mirror carp pictures from the USA:
http://www.carpanglersgroup.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7879&hl=

I dont know, im still confused...was doing some searching, and see even guys that are very knowlegable in the sciences cant agree about why Mirror carp happen?

http://www.carpanglersgroup.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7780

It is funny to think that no other species has such a wide variety of "scale" patterns than Carp & Koi..i cant think of any other species..can you guys?

Scott


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## PAYARA (Apr 7, 2004)

First,I would just like to say that I do NOT buy that any of these
mirror carp from the Scioto,that show sacring were ever accually
placed on a hook!Mirrors in general tend to show alot of scaring 
becuase they do not have much protection to their flesh due to 
lack of scales!

Iam going to post more about this in abit,mainly about carp genes,
ect.I want to say that theres always the chance that 'isreali' strain
used for bait(and realeased in the scioto) could have introduced 'new
blood' into the stock of exsiting 'wild' carp!If that was the case you
could see how it would only take a handfull of 'Isreali' or someother
'alien' strain,to get the results you have in at at least that one bit
of the river?But,I would bet that the ONLY other strain of Cyprinus
Carpio that has EVER been available in this country is the 'Isreali'
strain.As its wildly used for ALL sorts of applications.Its purposely
STOCKED in alot of places nationwide!I would LIKE to find a lake
where the carp are ALL of the Royale strain  the Royale carp
are IMO,the best looking carp of ALL,with an interesting history!

Scott-Those two mirrors you have (the Big Gut and the PB) I 
would definately say they are 'different'.The high backs are
unique and you just do NOT see that sort of body shape or
colors in every water!That really DARK color on the Big Gut
is odd!Just like the color of Tims fish.So was Big Gut a spawn
retainer?


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## BottomBouncer (Jan 20, 2005)

If there ever was a fish that was a TRUE slob.....that carp would be it. I don't see how it could swim with it's gut hangin' like that....


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## PAYARA (Apr 7, 2004)

Scott,Not ALL the mirrors on that CAG thread were captured in
this country.Theres a number form the UK as well.But I would
say the majority of the fish in that thread are 'wild' mirrors!?


Well,as some of you have heard me yak on and on about those
crazy lakes in MI in which the entire known stock of carp is mirrors
and BIG ones too.But,the question IS why are ALL the carp mirrors?
And how did so many of them get so BIG!?I don't think these fish are
Isreali? Just BIG A$$ 'wild' mirrors?..Heres a pic of a 45lber that was 
shot  Its a F****** BEAST of a mirror!

I guess these are not direct links  Just scroll over once you get
to the site and you can miss this BIG SOB!
http://www.amsbowfishing.com/includes/features/photogallery/carp2004/

Heres another BIG A$$ mirror,taken from the same site.And sadly once
again was shot  .But here again this fish IS just a massive WILD 
mirror!With an unbelievable scale pattern.Linear?

Just scroll over to the fish!
http://www.amsbowfishing.com/includes/features/photogallery/carp2005/


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## Master Angler (May 26, 2004)

RR - that is some gut on that fish...I've seen alot of carp but none like that...


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## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

MA...me either, specally from the RIVER...i dont know how it survives the high flood waters with a shape like that?


Scott


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## RiverRat (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh Greg, that "gut bag" was empty...its was just hanging...nothing in it...VERY odd fish indeed.

Scott


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## PAYARA (Apr 7, 2004)

It's definately ODD!I would suspect that it may have been fatter
than that!It has to be that way from carrying eggs earlier in the 
year,as I seriously doubt a fish that size had lost weight?!You have
seen the discussions on how those BIG European fish can loose
alot of weight,from this or that...Alot of those fish end up with
'empty' guts,that use to be solid?Its crazy that FISH can loose
and gain weight like that!

I had a common this year during the spawn that went 20lb even!
But I would say that the fish was only 15 maybe 16lbs normaly?
If you think about it...4-5lbs of fish eggs is ALOT of EGGS!This
common had a massize gut(I'll post the pic one of these days...lol)
But it's gut was nowhere near the size of one on that mirror of 
yours!.....I want to know how many pounds of eggs that fish
was carrying during late May,early June '05!!!

Scott-What do YOU think of that Mirror in the first link I gave???


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## Tornichio (Apr 14, 2004)

The mirror that I caught out of the river this past season came from the same stretch and it definitely was not an israeli carp I wish I could find the picture. It is just a wild mirror carp. It was fairly small I think 7 lbs. I think there are both from what I have seen. Big chessies fish was definitely bait earlier in life. If you look at the scar there is no mistaking that it was a hook that went through. I have fished the next damn down and have seen some large fish, but have not put in the hours there yet. I think it would have the potential for high 20's to low 30's The main stretch that most fish has larger fish from what I have seen so far. IT is just way too risky fishing by your self in the the next stretch of river. I have seen too many things that were/ are shady going on. I believe a lot of illegal activity goes on if you know what I mean. I am sure the whole pennisula is going to be a park. I am familiar with the plans since I work in architecture and planning in the city. It will take a lot of work and cleaning to make that are safe enough for people to go down to the river.
Marc


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