# Ohio's Deer Population Crash......



## crittergitter

Ok, so there has been a LOT of chatter on the boards for a LONG time about the deer numbers. Many, especially those hunting public land, have been crying foul about the liberal tags and increased opportunities for several years. Meanwhile, those on private land or in very deer abundant areas continually scoffed at the notion that there were "less" deer. Now, I am hearing reports from Lawrence and Athens county about less deer. My best friend has hunted Lawrence country during gun season for about 10 years now. He was used to seeing 35-45 deer during gun week. Last year he saw approx 20 and 13 of those were all at once. This year he saw a total of 7. 

I have read reports of less deer in Athens county. Whoa! Wait a second. I thought that was the one place in Ohio that had a population boom. 

I have also read reports of less deer being seen in Coshocton county which traditionally and historically ranks in the top 5 of the state for harvest every year. 

My own obervations from hunting Delaware, Marion, and Crawford counties for the past 22 years so a distinct decline in deer numbers. So much so that I will hunt elsewhere next year, and if it doesn't go better, I'll give it up altogether. 

Now, I know there are some isolated incidents of high deer densities. Where access is limited, especially in urban areas, the deer can really multiply. However, those incidents are the exception to the rule. In most areas of the state there are multiple reports of hunters seeing MANY less deer than they used to. This is because they aren't there. It is not because of acorn mast, crop rotations, the moon or anything else. It is well past time the ODNR stop telling us the population level of the herd for the entire state is the same as it was in the mid 1990's as nobody is buying that anymore. The harvest report alone is not an accurate measure of the current size of the herd. 

I have read where some hunters are not using very negative adjectives to describe what has happened to the deer herd such as population crash, herd destruction and attempted annihilation. Drastic? Yes. Extreme, indeed. However, hunters are very passionate about the sport. When they feel something is ruining the experience whether that is poaching, disease or over harvest they will speak out. That has been going on for several years now with little to no acknowledgment from the DOW. If a lower population is the goal then they need to state their stance on the progress toward that goal. Is this the new normal? Are we at the goal yet? Do they have a solid grasp on what the current population level is? These are VERY serious questions for the ODNR. I don't have all the answers, but I don't have to buy a hunting license or deer tag. If things don't change, I won't in the near future. I wonder how many other hunters who pursue deer in Ohio feel the same way. I worded it that way to include non-residents. This thread is about the herd population and not about who or what method they are pursued. I hope others will contribute to this thread with constructive discussion. I feel this is a VERY important topic facing hunters today.


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## Snakecharmer

I still see too many deer in NE Ohio. Last Monday for instance I saw 3 deer at lunch time crossing a road behing a post office truck and at 5:00 saw two more about 1/2 mile from the earlier sighting. I usually see at least a deer a week driving around.


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## Red1

I've been hunting my same 15 acres for 28 years. I just spent 4-5 hours/day for six days of deer season -- and I never saw a deer. None. Nada. Zippo. And yes, I'm disgusted with the State of Ohio & what they're saying about the deer herd.

Then, to top it off, Saturday night my wife and I were coming home from town and there was a buck standing in the middle of the road. We pulled up and waited for him to move out of the way, and when he did, we saw he was walking on three legs. He held his right front leg high off the ground and limped slowly off the road. The sight made me so upset, I'm still sick about it. 

He's just one of the who-knows-how many casualties from hunting season that won't be counted.


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## RiverWader

I hunted Athens Co all week, Only saw 13 Deer , 6 of those were in 1 group. Also only heard about 40-50 shots all week, I usually here that in the 1st 2-3 hours
Everyone Ive talked to Who came through My Uncles Gun shop were reporting LOW Deer numbers


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## bobk

I am not sure if you have looked at the real numbers or not. The dnr shows the harvest is up 82% just in Athens County. I think about every county in the state is way up. It would make sense that if the harvest is up that much that the heard is not crashing.


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## M.Magis

I thought it was common knowledge that a lower deer population was the goal? It's no secret, and the DNR stated as much years ago. The population was way too high and it needed lowered. It appears numbers are getting closer to where they should be and now tags are being reduced. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised or alarmed? And as Bobk says, harvest numbers sure don't indicate any sort of "population crash".
I think a lot of people are failing to adapt to the way people are hunting these days. It used to be that nearly everywhere you went there were large groups of hunters out moving deer all day long, nearly every day. If you didn&#8217;t hear 50-100 shots you must have been in the house. It&#8217;s not like that anymore, and the deer just aren&#8217;t pressured quite the same. Once that initial run of hunters the first day or so, the deer start limiting any daytime movement and there&#8217;s no one out there making them move. People still think they can just sit in the woods and see 20 deer, when in fact those deer are out there but aren&#8217;t getting up until it&#8217;s dark out. Like it or not, hunting isn&#8217;t the same as it used to be and not everyone has adapted yet.


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## crittergitter

M.Magis said:


> I thought it was common knowledge that a lower deer population was the goal? It's no secret, and the DNR stated as much years ago. The population was way too high and it needed lowered. It appears numbers are getting closer to where they should be and now tags are being reduced. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised or alarmed? And as Bobk says, harvest numbers sure don't indicate any sort of "population crash".


ODNR has continued to report the population to be estimated at around 700k. That's the number they used in the mid 90's. That's called propaganda if you ask me. The population is NOT the same today as it was in the mid 90's. Also, in some isolated places the deer have been nearly wiped out, so I think "crash" is an appropriate term to describe the situation.


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## Bad Bub

Regardless if the population is down or not, the odnr has never hidden the fact that it has been their goal to greatly reduce the deer herd. 

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## DancinBear

I had different luck. I have never seen as many deer as I saw this year. Medina Knox and Athens all loaded with deer Opening morning I heard hundreds of shots. Sounded like a war zone. Saw at least 30 deer I could have shot. I think most areas have ups and downs. For me last year I didn't see very many deer, this year I did. I think the odnr is amazing at the job they do. 30 years ago if u saw a deer that was somthing to talk about. And though management and liberal doe laws we have a state year in and year out churning out trophies 


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## Lundy

DancinBear said:


> Medina Knox and Athens all loaded with deer Opening morning I heard hundreds of shots. Sounded like a war zone. Saw at least 30 deer I could have shot.
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


You must drive really fast


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## bad luck

Less number seen by me, each year, last 3 years. I hunt in Muskingum, Coshocton, and Guernsey counties. I bow hunt a lot more than gun hunt, and there are simply not as many deer....period.


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## alumcreeker

Where I hunt I in delaware county I have noticed a huge decrease in deer numbers now one guy on here says we need to adapt to the change of hunting but what about me sir the deer herd I hunt dobt have any pressure at all the land backs up to alum creek no hunting area and it has been closed since 92 when we moved there so where did my deer go. Im not trying to fight just saying I think its tine the dow stopped all these extra tags and the second weekend of gun season and let our herd get back to good numbers you want to introduce new hunters to the outdoors without them being able to see deer. Kinda hard to keep the excitement level high im an obsessive hunter and I understand that you dont always see deer but if there were a lot more deer you would be able to see more than you do now 

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## Lundy

I have hunted the same land, 600 + acres, for 20+ years in Athens County. 

There is zero doubt that the area population is way down over recent years and a huge reduction from 8 years ago and older.

I saw less deer during the 7 days hunting dark to dark than I typically see on the first day of gun season.

I run 7 cameras on the property and multiple feeders. I can see a lot of the property and the deer that come across from the adjoining properties during their drives. I can hear the shots as compared to previous years. I talk to the drive participants on the adjoining properties that stay at the same hotel as us all week.

There are a lot less deer in the area that I hunt. It may be isolated to a small area of Athens County where I hunt but there is zero doubt in my mind that the population is much lower than recent years and drastically different than a lot of years ago. The rest of Athens County may be booming I don't know.

I know the goal has been to reduce the population, no surprises there for me.

I have a lot of theories of why, but they are only theories

My reduction in deer sighting has little to do with me not adapting to the change in hunting pressure or deer habits


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## Eric E

bobk said:


> I am not sure if you have looked at the real numbers or not. The dnr shows the harvest is up 82% just in Athens County. I think about every county in the state is way up. It would make sense that if the harvest is up that much that the heard is not crashing.


The key to your comment is I think about every county is way up..The real numbers are down. Gun season down 3.7% from last year.. Great weather this year but still down...Hmmmm....

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## M.Magis

Eric E said:


> The key to your comment is I think about every county is way up..The real numbers are down. Gun season down 3.7% from last year.. Great weather this year but still down...Hmmmm....
> 
> Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2


Opening day numbers were way up, but overall for gun season the numbers are down a little. But remember, last year the bonus antlerless tags were good during gun season. It should be expected for the overall state numbers to be down a little this year since those tags are no longer valid, that was the whole reason for the tags not being valid for gun season. Nothing mysterious there.

I really think some of you are looking for some sort of conspiracy or something. Yes, numbers are down in some areas. That was the whole goal. It&#8217;s been well documented that the herd was entirely too big 5 or so years ago. Really, if anyone is surprised to be seeing less deer, they haven&#8217;t been reading the state &#8220;reports&#8221; each year. Or the regulations booklet for that matter, but I think that&#8217;s been established.


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## bdawg

My dad and I hunt the Tappan Lake public hunting area in Harrison county. We have also noticed less deer the last couple of years. We drive the same areas every year, so by the end of the day we know about how many deer are in the area. Also hearing less shots and saw less hunters this year than ever before. Heard that the bow kill is way up from last year so this may explain some of it. I also think that allowing up to 6 deer per year is too many.


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## MassillonBuckeye

I saw a monster buck near where we met that one day and I bought those couple baits off you Critter  Crossing the road. Huge rack! Couldn't believe it. Not that is has much to do with the topic, just an observation. Maybe the herds are moving from all the pressure? Probably more pressure than ever wouldn't you think? I have no idea. First I'm hearing about dwindling number though.


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## Eric E

M.Magis said:


> Opening day numbers were way up, but overall for gun season the numbers are down a little. But remember, last year the bonus antlerless tags were good during gun season. It should be expected for the overall state numbers to be down a little this year since those tags are no longer valid, that was the whole reason for the tags not being valid for gun season. Nothing mysterious there.
> 
> I really think some of you are looking for some sort of conspiracy or something. Yes, numbers are down in some areas. That was the whole goal. It


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## Lundy

Athens County per the ODNR numbers for the 7 day gun seasons. What I am seeing in Athens County is I think indicitive of a county wide population reduction

A 52% reduction in the 7 day gun harvest from the 2002 numbers.

A 30% reduction from 2009 harvest numbers

2002 - 4157
2003 - 3252
2004 - 3419
2005 - 2779
2006 - 2754
2007 - 2392
2008 - 2936
2009 - 2808
2010 - 2162
2011 - 2059
2012 - 1983


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## P-NUT

bobk said:


> I am not sure if you have looked at the real numbers or not. The dnr shows the harvest is up 82% just in Athens County. I think about every county in the state is way up. It would make sense that if the harvest is up that much that the heard is not crashing.


That chart for the yearly comparisons by the DNR is based off number of days of the hunting season. There were more hunting days last year before gun season than this year. Therefore, all of last years gun season totals are not included in the comparison(i think only two?). The current chart will show the same number of days from each year but only 2 days of gun season for 2011-12 compared to all 7 for 2012-13. Check it again later this week and see what the percentages are. Should be interesting!


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## P-NUT

Bad Bub said:


> Regardless if the population is down or not, the odnr has never hidden the fact that it has been their goal to greatly reduce the deer herd.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Right on the money bad bub!

I talked to ODNR personnel at the open house in march and was shown charts on population numbers, rate of decline and their long term herd numbers. They made no effort at all to hide the fact that herd reduction was their goal. More sportsmen should attend these open houses.


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## Snook

Herd is definitely down in Coshocton Co. where a bunch of us hunt.Several big properties too. So bad that I'm starting to feel bad to shoot a doe(which BTW I have not shot one in 2 yrs) Sure hope that Ohio does not end up like Pa. Then you have to worry about EHD and CWD


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## M.Magis

Snook said:


> Herd is definitely down in Coshocton Co. where a bunch of us hunt.Several big properties too. So bad that I'm starting to feel bad to shoot a doe(which BTW I have not shot one in 2 yrs) Sure hope that Ohio does not end up like Pa. Then you have to worry about EHD and CWD


CWD and EHD having nothing to do with the population? Not sure what you mean.


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## LilSiman/Medina

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I saw a monster buck near where we met that one day and I bought those couple baits off you Critter  Crossing the road. Huge rack! Couldn't believe it. Not that is has much to do with the topic, just an observation. Maybe the herds are moving from all the pressure? Probably more pressure than ever wouldn't you think? I have no idea. First I'm hearing about dwindling number though.


That's exactly the problem. People that are anti hunting and own large properties. The back part of my property is less than a quarter mile away from 2 properties that combine to be well over 500 acres. All year we won't see barely any deer. A couple days ago I went through the road in between the two properties and saw over 100 deer. The deer are here, they're just hiding.


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## glassbb6646

many issue has done this look back 20 years ago how many houses was on the road to hunt. how many farmers have sold the land out and now you have houses and when you make the area the deer live smaller then add more tags for us to kill we all did what they wanted killing them off. Funny it was great when they put out extra tags and us hunters go out and killed 4,5 or 6 deers with lees land for the deer it was fun for a while but now we are upset and cant understand what happend to the deer. should have been kill 6 in the city with a bow or what ever but the hunters thinking killing 6 deer on the on going smaller lands out in the country is a good thing guess what your heard is gone and the city deer that get put in the numbers of the deer population is getting bigger. I was a part of this but i stopped i blam the insurence companies and us hunters for going with it who needs 4,5 or 6 deer we did it so now get hunters to fight back only get 1 tag a year and on kill 1 if that happens we can bring back good hunting in the country and let the city boys work with the insurance companies getting there cars fixed.


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## bobk

It would be interesting to so see the number of hunters now compared to back then.If I remeber right from checking this last year it was down quite a bit.

P-Nut, my numbers were based off of Nov. 27th if I remember. I knew gun season wasn't in it yet. I was simply pointing out that fact that the harvest numbers are way up from the 27th of last year.. I have seen fewer deer in the last few years at my place in Hocking County too. 



Lundy said:


> Athens County per the ODNR numbers for the 7 day gun seasons. What I am seeing in Athens County is I think indicitive of a county wide population reductio
> 
> A 52% reduction in the 7 day gun harvest from the 2002 numbers.
> 
> A 30% reduction from 2009 harvest numbers
> 
> 2002 - 4157
> 2003 - 3252
> 2004 - 3419
> 2005 - 2779
> 2006 - 2754
> 2007 - 2392
> 2008 - 2936
> 2009 - 2808
> 2010 - 2162
> 2011 - 2059
> 2012 - 1983


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## shorebound

I'm not going to argue that the population is down it is. However one thing to think about as some one said earlier the change in environment. 5+ years ago the only people who had food plots/feeders were pro hunters. Now just about everyone that hunts has a plot or feeder. It may be just my opinion but the deer used to move further distances. If I put my cam up on one side of the property I see the same deer no matter what unless something runs a deer out. I put it on the other side of the property and same scenario different deer but it's the same group time and time again. Gun season did stir that up a little but what I am getting at is would you rather drive 20 minutes to the store or 5? Also land that used to be farmed is now sitting as half developed housing developments atleast here in northeastern oh making the deer that used to eat the crops change their patterns. Times are changing hunting is different then 5+ years ago or even 10+ years ago. I don't see as many deer as I used to and I don't see deer in the same places I used to either.


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## dstiner86

Lundy said:


> You must drive really fast


I concur on Knox county.. I drive roughly 30 miles thru Knox each day, depending on weather i easily see 5-10 deer a trip (many double digit trips).. One night I kid you not in return trip home i counted over 30 either on the road or within 40 yards from it!.. My brakes have gotten a work out this fall and unfortunately my car got modified by a Doe too, then about a second opinion less then 8hrs later by a beauty of a buck.. 
And as for opening night around my house it sounded like fire crackers on forth of July
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## leupy

The last article I read stated the Ohio deer population is down 8 percent. The article blamed more coyotes as the main reason but added the DNR's liberal doe license regulations. While I believe that the insurance companys are putting presure on polititions for the DNR's liberal doe license's, that is not what is causing the population to get smaller in the area I hunt, it is the Amish, they hunt all year long and kill everything they can. DNR are shooting themselves in the foot, they are paid by license fees and excise taxes, if they reduce the population of deer there will be fewer hunters and the budget for DNR will go down which will mean less raises and fewer officers. The increased number of coyotes, liberal doe tags and the Amish the Ohio deer herd is going suffer.


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## NIGHT MAGIC

Dont you guys think there is something going on with the # of kills on the odnrs charts, if most of us are seeing less deer and are our kill rates are down from last year how could these charts be correct. They are saying every county if way up from last year,every hunter i know sightings and kills are down at least 50% from last year


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## 9Left

leupy said:


> The last article I read stated the Ohio deer population is down 8 percent. The article blamed more coyotes as the main reason but added the DNR's liberal doe license regulations. While I believe that the insurance companys are putting presure on polititions for the DNR's liberal doe license's, that is not what is causing the population to get smaller in the area I hunt, it is the Amish, they hunt all year long and kill everything they can. DNR are shooting themselves in the foot, they are paid by license fees and excise taxes, if they reduce the population of deer there will be fewer hunters and the budget for DNR will go down which will mean less raises and fewer officers. The increased number of coyotes, liberal doe tags and the Amish the Ohio deer herd is going suffer.


Very true..My cousin is out in east ohio working with the natural gas companies...he was telling me the Amish will get in groups of over 20 guys, walk the woods and shoot every deer they see......now of course(before anyone retalliates)..im not blaming amish people for ruining our deer herd at all.... just agreeing that amish DO hunt all year long and DO kill a LOT of deer...year round...


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## viper1

Well trouble is deer are experts at adapting while hunters aren't. The deer have learned to function at night when hunters are sleeping along with the rest of the people. We cut the woods out and build homes and plazas. But they remain. You can see their signs of tracks and that. I have watched it happen. And today if people arent driving them sun up and sun down is you best hope. After that for get it. I have tons of deer and four bucks coming in every night starting between 8 till 4 in the morning. Then stay gone till next night. I keep several cameras in different areas. There all the same. Now if you could design something to scare them out at night you may have a chance. Lol. Also its the insurance companys and farmers pushing for lower numbers.

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## buckeyebowman

M.Magis said:


> I thought it was common knowledge that a lower deer population was the goal? It's no secret, and the DNR stated as much years ago. The population was way too high and it needed lowered. It appears numbers are getting closer to where they should be and now tags are being reduced. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised or alarmed? And as Bobk says, harvest numbers sure don't indicate any sort of "population crash".
> I think a lot of people are failing to adapt to the way people are hunting these days. It used to be that nearly everywhere you went there were large groups of hunters out moving deer all day long, nearly every day. If you didnt hear 50-100 shots you must have been in the house. Its not like that anymore, and the deer just arent pressured quite the same. Once that initial run of hunters the first day or so, the deer start limiting any daytime movement and theres no one out there making them move. People still think they can just sit in the woods and see 20 deer, when in fact those deer are out there but arent getting up until its dark out. Like it or not, hunting isnt the same as it used to be and not everyone has adapted yet.





Bad Bub said:


> Regardless if the population is down or not, the odnr has never hidden the fact that it has been their goal to greatly reduce the deer herd.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Both posts very true! And, yes, I believe that deer numbers are down overall. After all, why would the ODNR, for the last two years I believe, cut off the antlerless tags at the start of gun season? Obviously, it's a starting point to attempt to "stabilize" the deer population. We'll see what the future brings. 

Here's a couple of cases in point. My brother in law has 2 farms in SE Ohio to hunt. We went down the last full week of October and the first full week of November, bracketing Halloween week. We figured that one of those weeks should give us some action. Well, it was crickets both weeks! Even more, that stretch of I77, from about Newcomerstown to Marietta is usually a long, thin deer graveyard! We saw very few carcasses along the road on both drives. And the usual spots on the farms weren't producing. Later on, when we started changing things up, we saw a few more deer, but nothing in bow range.

Then, in gun season, I primarily hunted a farm that is contiguous with a friend's property. He has 9 acres, the farm is 90 acres. Deer sign is everywhere! But where are the deer? Sometimes, at night, we'd walk out behind his property with a spotlight. I know, I know! We're horrible people! But, we weren't shooting anything, we just wanted to see what's around. Anyway, we'd see sometimes 20 deer out in the fields within 1/2 mile of his house. A local farming family, and the extended family, plus friends, is quite large, put on drives during the gun season. They drive their property, property that they have leased to farm, plus properties where they have permission, like the 90 acre farm next to my friend's place. Well, they drove it on Tuesday afternoon and pushed 2 doe out of there. Nobody got a shot. Then, they pushed it again on Saturday afternoon, and didn't raise a single deer! And they bring enough guys to just stomp the woods flat! Well, on Sunday, I went out in the morning, didn't see anything, though I didn't really expect to. Then the rains came, I got soaked an went home. My buddy works crazy hours for a gas well services company, got home about mid-day, got a few hours of sleep, and went out for about the last 35 minutes of gun season. He saw 8 deer! All right before sunset. Admittedly, they'd be a little freaked out by all the hunting activity in the area for a solid week, but still, it makes me wonder just how smart these deer are, and how well they have us, and our movements, patterned.


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## P-NUT

bobk said:


> It would be interesting to so see the number of hunters now compared to back then.If I remeber right from checking this last year it was down quite a bit.
> 
> P-Nut, my numbers were based off of Nov. 27th if I remember. I knew gun season wasn't in it yet. I was simply pointing out that fact that the harvest numbers are way up from the 27th of last year.. I have seen fewer deer in the last few years at my place in Hocking County too.


This week or next weeks numbers will give a much better comparison as gun season for both years will be included.


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## Gills63

Saw the new numbers in todays Ohio Outdoor News. Seems like a lot of zone C was down and zone B was up. I have to believe that all those antlerless tags had an impact. 

I also believe the numbers are inaccurate or are a poor representation. Some properties/hunter see enough deer to shoot 50 deer a season. Others are lucky to fill a tag or two.

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## LindyRigger

Very interesting read fellas. Does anyone think the new game check system is effecting the numbers reported killed vs seen while hunting. I am not sure but it is a new variable in this equation. 
LindyRigger


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## billk

Belmont county - Egypt Valley.

I didn't even see a complete deer opening day, saw three Tuesday AM. 

Numbers down - absolutely.

With this new online checkin procedure, I'd like to see a breakdown of public vs private land harvest numbers.


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## T-180

I also wonder what this new check in will do to buck numbers ........... how many bucks got checked in as antlerless so people could still hunt horns ??
ODNR is simply reacting to the Farm Bureau & insurance lobbies to reduce numbers of deer. They should remember who pays the bills & it's not those two groups. 
A great deal of the crop damage is due to other animals (especially ****) & the deer get blamed for all of it. The deer numbers are way down in my area & it's not that the deer are adapting faster or anything else, unless they know how to avoid the trail cams & sightings by the farmers. If they can do that, I give up !!


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## Snook

M.Magis said:


> CWD and EHD having nothing to do with the population? Not sure what you mean.


Your right Magis...it's not a problem right now.Just saying it is another threat the deer may have to contend with in the future. EHD killed quite a few deer in Portage county.Also it was really bad in Crawford and Mercer county Pa.


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## crittergitter

I am very curious to see if there is a significant drop in tag sales this year. There should be some drop as this year was the first that the $15 doe tags were no good in Zone C during gun week. I wonder if the tag sales will drop drastically next year with so many upset at the deer numbers they are seeing where they typically prefer to hunt. 

I wonder how far the numbers of tag sales would have to drop before the DOW would react. I wonder how they would react.


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## Weekender#1

When I got checked by Game Warden on Sunday his take was this. 
Deer numbers are down but Deer kill is up, due to last year we had heavy rains and flooding to keep the hunters at home. He said that next year Hancock County will be moved to zone A which is a 1 deer limit as well as 1 antlerless tag to be used before Gun season. The population should bounce back, here at least.


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## Bonemann

The deer population in Ohio is going down (overall). It is up in some areas and down in others. Between doe harvest,coyotes and changing habitat.

There are still way more today then when I started hunting them in 1974.

Back in the 90's Jefferson County seamed to be over run with deer and not
long after that we were over run with hunters (all from out of the area). That basically took care of our over population in just 5 or 6 years. Once the deer were gone (a few years later) the hunters were gone.

We used to harvest 5000 plus every year (back then), always in the top 5 counties in the state. Now we're lucky to be in the top 10.

Since that time coyotes have moved in the 6 deer limit has been in place our population has never recovered !

And as far as the antler less permit ($15 tag) is concerned I just think that it's a money thing. If you want to take a doe in gun season you need to use a $24 tag. And of course if you want to keep hunting you buy another one.


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## supercanoe

I wish the ODNR would just be honest with us. They say every year before the season that we have more deer than last year. Even this year they said the herd was up or holding steady. Either they have no clue what the herd is doing, or they are not being 100% honest with us. As far as crop damage goes, more crops are lost to ***** than deer. Where is the **** damage program? Every deer has a value, I can't stand seeing the wastefulness of the kill permits. The ODNR is more worried about writing tickets than managing a resource. The management plan has worked for the most part over the years. It is a basic plan that has changed little over the years. One buck a year, 1 week gun season after the rut, and limited doe tags. The success of this program is based more on tradition than cutting edge research. This formula will grow a healthy herd in most parts of the midwest. I have lost faith in ODNR. I don't feel that they are looking out for us as sportsmen or for the resource. They are more worried about politcal advancement and hidden agendas than anything.


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## AEFISHING

What was the total deer kill for gun week?


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## buckeye dan

AEFISHING said:


> What was the total deer kill for gun week?


Hunters enjoyed great weather as they harvested 86,964 white-tailed deer during Ohios traditional week-long deer-gun season, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife. The harvest yielded an anticipated slight decrease of 3.7 percent from 2011, when 90,282 deer were checked.

Source:
http://www.ohiodnr.com/home_page/Ne...86-000-Deer-during-Ohios-Deer-Gun-Season.aspx


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## bkr43050

I know that Dstiner commented that he is still seeing a lot of deer in Knox county which is where I live. I will say that I still see deer but nowhere near the numbers I saw 5-10 years ago. There are a few small areas within the county that I believe still have strong numbers. It is because of these areas that Knox remains high in the list of harvest counties. Trust me if they depended on deer densities such as around my place we would be closer to the bottom that the top of the list. I had 20 hours in the woods last week and saw 3 does. My son saw 4. The amount of shooting is only a small fraction of what it used to be. I talked to a guy who hunts on my neighbor's place and he has been hearing the same from everyone he speaks to. They went over to another 500 acre farm mid-week and tried to push some deer and saw none on either end (pushers or standers). I know that woods and it used to be crawling with deer. I believe Knox is 8th on the list which seems pretty good but a few years ago it was 4th or 5th. The gun harvest last week was down another 14% from last year's numbers which were down every year dating back to 2008. the gun week harvest was over 40% lower than the same week in 2008 and 43% lower than 2007. As Crittergitter alluded to, these numbers have been explained away in past years as caused by numerous factors (weather, acorn mast, etc.). If any of that were true we would have ended up with a huge increase in the deer herd in subsequent years. After seeing these numbers decline each of the last 4+ years it is pretty obvious that those explanations held no water. There have been some who suggest we may be hunting them wrong and we need to change tactics. That would make some sense if we were sitting in one place all year long and seeing nothing. I know many hunters who have covered a lot of miles in an attempt to find the deer. They just are not there in many cases.

I know that our county has a large bag limit but I still am unsure of how much that is impacting the herd. I just think the number of hunters that are exceeding 3 deer is minimal from what I have found. There seems to be some other factors involved beyond hunter harvest. I believe that the deer damage permits are still being used rather liberally with our county at least. They did reduce the number of damage permit kills more than in half from just a couple of years ago so I am at least optimistic that they are paying a bit of attention to the actual herd and not re-issuing permits blindly. They still do have nearly 600 though which accounts for over 10% of the entire damage permit total. I really do think that the coyote population is impacting the herd in our area significantly although I have no way to prove it. I know that several years ago I hardly ever saw or heard them in our area. I see them so regularly any more, maybe once every 2-3 hunts. We are going to do our best to remove some of the coyotes. Hopefully that will save a few fawns this spring and, if so, I may see more fawns in the fields come next summer.

Crittergitter in reference to your question about the tag sales, the ratio of deer harvested to permits sold in 2002 as compared to 2011-2012 is 40% in 2002 down to 36% in 2011. That number was in the neighborhood of 40-44% from 2004-2009. It has decreased in 2010 and 2011 down to the 36%.


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## Lewis

First of all I feel very fortunate to own some great hunting land just outside my back door. I noticed a drop in the deer population several years ago about the time the coyote population exploded.
I would see the same group of does and fawns at my feeder daily during the summer.Fawns started disappearing.Next day or two you just had to look for the buzzards circleing to find a fawn carcass ravaged by coyotes.

Several years ago me and some adjoining property owners started a little old school deer management.We shoot every coyote we see and we STOPPED shooting does.We have not shot a doe in several years.
We also feed very heavily during the fall seasons in an effort to keep and hold deer on our property that otherwise would be killed on adjoining properties where hunters shoot anything that moves. 

It might be a little unconventional,but man is it working. We are seeing plenty of deer and bucks of all age groups.
On saturday afternoon near the end of gun season I had 18 deer relaxed and feeding at the feeder.


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## buckeye dan

A list of white-tailed deer checked by hunters during the week-long 2012 deer-gun hunting season is shown below. The first number following the countys name shows the harvest numbers for 2012, and the 2011 numbers are in parentheses.

Adams: 1,554 (1,727);
Allen: 393 (293);
Ashland: 1,240 (1,096);
Ashtabula: 2,052 (1,777);
Athens: 1,983 (2,059);
Auglaize: 362 (192);
Belmont: 2,127 (2,431);
Brown: 1,094 (1,229);
Butler: 350 (345);
Carroll: 2,062 (2,252);
Champaign: 487 (554); 
Clark: 226 (276);
Clermont: 835 (980);
Clinton: 348 (373);
Columbiana: 1,686 (1,738);
Coshocton: 3,119 (3,690);
Crawford: 543 (441);
Cuyahoga: 30 (37);
Darke: 312 (223);
Defiance: 882 (725);
Delaware: 620 (594);
Erie: 171 (137);
Fairfield: 1,040 (1,152);
Fayette: 111 (104);
Franklin: 176 (170);
Fulton: 413 (302);
Gallia: 1,747 (1,844);
Geauga: 598 (623);
Greene: 318 (287);
Guernsey: 2,620 (2,982);
Hamilton: 244 (298);
Hancock: 558 (402);
Hardin: 512 (354);
Harrison: 2,370 (2,772);
Henry: 347 (279);
Highland: 1,347 (1,432);
Hocking: 1,966 (2,184);
Holmes: 1,837 (2,013);
Huron: 1,006 (925);
Jackson: 1,439 (1,515);
Jefferson: 1,830 (2,044);
Knox: 2,159 (2,480);
Lake: 207 (185);
Lawrence: 1,286 (1,574);
Licking: 2,271 (2,678);
Logan: 755 (760);
Lorain: 764 (739);
Lucas: 158 (129);
Madison: 141 (167);
Mahoning: 664 (563);
Marion: 410 (320);
Medina: 596 (556);
Meigs: 1,764 (1,974);
Mercer: 318 (203);
Miami: 241 (194);
Monroe: 1,695 (1,960);
Montgomery: 162 (144);
Morgan: 1,712 (1,804);
Morrow: 844 (851);
Muskingum: 2,927 (3,223);
Noble: 1,647 (2,028);
Ottawa: 86 (81);
Paulding: 551 (416);
Perry: 1,726 (1,832);
Pickaway: 500 (466);
Pike: 973 (1,077);
Portage: 608 (644);
Preble: 323 (267);
Putnam: 327 (238);
Richland: 1,418 (1,714);
Ross: 1,512 (1,723);
Sandusky: 224 (195);
Scioto: 1,138 (1,224);
Seneca: 803 (603);
Shelby: 456 (305);
Stark: 833 (661);
Summit: 163 (151);
Trumbull: 1,237 (1,060);
Tuscarawas: 2,860 (3,180);
Union: 352 (354);
Van Wert: 290 (194);
Vinton: 1,583 (1,577);
Warren: 406 (412);
Washington: 2,163 (2,225);
Wayne: 784 (644);
Williams: 906 (787);
Wood: 254 (208);
Wyandot: 812 (661). 
Total: 86,964 (90,282).


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## bkr43050

Lewis said:


> First of all I feel very fortunate to own some great hunting land just outside my back door. I noticed a drop in the deer population several years ago about the time the coyote population exploded.
> I would see the same group of does and fawns at my feeder daily during the summer.Fawns started disappearing.Next day or two you just had to look for the buzzards circleing to find a fawn carcass ravaged by coyotes.
> 
> Several years ago me and some adjoining property owners started a little old school deer management.We shoot every coyote we see and we STOPPED shooting does.We have not shot a doe in several years.
> We also feed very heavily during the fall seasons in an effort to keep and hold deer on our property that otherwise would be killed on adjoining properties where hunters shoot anything that moves.
> 
> It might be a little unconventional,but man is it working. We are seeing plenty of deer and bucks of all age groups.
> On saturday afternoon near the end of gun season I had 18 deer relaxed and feeding at the feeder.


Lewis, I am curious as to how many coyotes you guys are killing a year. I do hope to thin them some but I am being realistic in knowing that I will probably only do a minimal job of removing them...at least initially. I just am wondering what impact it may have if we were able to take out maybe 3-4 before next spring.

We have cut back on the doe harvest on my place in recent years as well although we still shoot a couple. Having a 56 acre property I don't feel that 2 is overdoing it. I am hoping to put one more deer in the freezer this year but I already decided it will not come from our place unless it is a buck. Otherwise I will go to some other area that has a better density of population.


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## Gills63

If you look at those numbers posted above you see that most of the down counties are the ones that have 1200+. A lot of the counties that had 500-700 deer taken have went up or changed little. Zone B vs Zone C? 

Not 100% sure what this observation means, but it appears pretty consistent across the board (except for a few). Maybe the idea that a lot of zone A and zone B hunter went to C to use those antlerless tags. And obviously a lot of hunters always have headed to zone C.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## bkr43050

Gills63 said:


> If you look at those numbers posted above you see that most of the down counties are the ones that have 1200+. A lot of the counties that had 500-700 deer taken have went up or changed little. Zone B vs Zone C?
> 
> Not 100% sure what this observation means, but it appears pretty consistent across the board (except for a few). Maybe the idea that a lot of zone A and zone B hunter went to C to use those antlerless tags. And obviously a lot of hunters always have headed to zone C.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


The timing of the decline in harvests is directly in line with the timing of the start of the new bag limits. I don't think that is a coincidence either.


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## Lewis

Brian,
I think we cleared the pack out of here finally.Year before last we killed 3.Last year we killed 2.This year we are not even hearing them at night.
If they return I will do some late winter night hunting.

I dont know what the typical litter size is for coyotes but I figure for every female coyote you kill you could possibly be eliminating 3 to 8 future coyotes.

Thats why we stopped shooting does.Typically every doe you shoot you are killing 3 deer as most healthy does give birth to twins.
A side benefit of having all those does coming it to heat is it really draws the bucks during the rut.


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## GARNERMAN357

I was out on opening day on privat land about 1/4 mile away from zepernick wildlife area. my wifes grandma owns around 1000 acres that but up to the public land and i have seen and learned a lot thru hunting the land. my experiances have me beliving that overall that the numbers are going up but slowly. every year goes by less and less hunters are coming from the city hunting the public land and when i drive around the area in columbiana/ carroll and stark county i see more deer. opening day i saw 35 deer all at 300 plus yards running the open feilds hoping from one patch of woods to the other. its my beleif that the deer find a way to avoid us when the season starts. but i do agree with the number of yearlings being down and coyotes are getting ridiculous around the lisbon,minerva,carrolton area. i see tracks and see several of them every time i go out. without a doubt they have to be impacting the population but i havent heard of anyone really agreeing with me on that. i live in green near the akron canton airport and saw one this year in the middle of the day along the highway. been thinking of making them a new hunting source but havnt done my homework yet to really go after them. one thing that i beleive is really sad is the amount of wounded deer that people take stupid shots at and they run and die somewhere. the number of those deer have to be great. i saw over 5 of them this year by state property and another 3 by the roads. the odnr cant account for accidents caused by driving and stupidity when it comes to hunting. sometimes i wish people would just spen 20 bucks and shoot some target so they can give the deer a chance of a clean kill.


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## crittergitter

bkr43050 said:


> I know that our county has a large bag limit but I still am unsure of how much that is impacting the herd. *I just think the number of hunters that are exceeding 3 deer is minimal from what I have found.* There seems to be some other factors involved beyond hunter harvest. I believe that the deer damage permits are still being used rather liberally with our county at least. They did reduce the number of damage permit kills more than in half from just a couple of years ago so I am at least optimistic that they are paying a bit of attention to the actual herd and not re-issuing permits blindly. They still do have nearly 600 though which accounts for over 10% of the entire damage permit total.


Are you sure about that bolded part Brian? I will thank Lundy for the below information. (I'm bad about swiping his intel). Sorry!

114, 789 killed 1 deer..........114,789
30,147 killed 2 deer...............60,294
8,581 killed 3 deer.................25,743
2,850 killed 4 deer.................11,400
899 killed 5 deer ....................4,495
460 killed 6 deer.....................2,760

So all deer killed above 2 per hunter accounts for 20% of the overall harvest or *44,398 *deer. _That's a LOT of deer!_

All deer killed above 3 per hunter accounts for 8% of the overall harvest or *18,655* deer. _That's quite a few deer._


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## fishingdude

NIGHT MAGIC said:


> Dont you guys think there is something going on with the # of kills on the odnrs charts, if most of us are seeing less deer and are our kill rates are down from last year how could these charts be correct. They are saying every county if way up from last year,every hunter i know sightings and kills are down at least 50% from last year


THIS......

Remember slaves, that everything they print is all truth!

And Magnis..... you'd find good in hell. You'd find a way to be somehow cold there too.


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## supercanoe

I too have stopped shooting does. I have shot one doe in 3 years off our property. I used to shoot as many as the laws permitted. I could still shoot a limit of does, but I can't due it based on morals and sound deer management. It is sad that I put in so much time to raise and hold deer, but can't enjoy harvesting does to eat. I also kill coyotes every chance I can. Once you shoot a few they leave the area. I am still seeing many does with 1 or no yearlings by late summer.


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## bkr43050

crittergitter said:


> Are you sure about that bolded part Brian? I will thank Lundy for the below information. (I'm bad about swiping his intel). Sorry!
> 
> 114, 789 killed 1 deer..........114,789
> 30,147 killed 2 deer...............60,294
> 8,581 killed 3 deer.................25,743
> 2,850 killed 4 deer.................11,400
> 899 killed 5 deer ....................4,495
> 460 killed 6 deer.....................2,760
> 
> So all deer killed above 2 per hunter accounts for 20% of the overall harvest or *44,398 *deer. _That's a LOT of deer!_
> 
> All deer killed above 3 per hunter accounts for 8% of the overall harvest or *18,655* deer. _That's quite a few deer._


That is a good chart. I had not seen that one yet but I think you overstated that number a bit. The 18,655 is the total number of deer killed by those hunters who killed in excess. That number includes their amount over 3. (I am using 3 as a theoretical lower limit) They really only harvested 6,028 more than they would with a 3 deer limit. Another way to figure that is take the total number of hunters from those last three groups (2850+899+460) and multiply by 3. If the limit was 3 they could have harvested a total of 12,642 which mean 6,028 were in excess. I am not sure which year that list is from but the total number of deer killed in the list is 219,481. The 6,028 is only 2.7% of the total.

If the same calculation is done with the limit at 2 the amount over the 2 deer limit would be 18,818 or 8.6%, not a negligible amount but to me it does not seem to be enough to thin the herd as rapidly as we saw in our area.


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## bkr43050

NIGHT MAGIC said:


> Dont you guys think there is something going on with the # of kills on the odnrs charts, if most of us are seeing less deer and are our kill rates are down from last year how could these charts be correct. They are saying every county if way up from last year,every hunter i know sightings and kills are down at least 50% from last year


I think maybe you are reading the numbers wrong. They are not saying that every county is up from last year. If you look at the list that Buckeye Dan posted just up above a few posts it list this year's number and then last year's in parenthesis. Most counties are down, or at least the counties with sizable harvests. The total was down 3.7% from last year's gun week.


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## Lundy

Brian,

Thanks for pointing out the error in my math on the tags above 3 deer. I didn't post that information here, I posted it elsewhere but it made it way here somehow


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## rattletraprex

I know I saw a lot less deer where I hunt this year vs previous years,saw more bucks also and not as many young deer.Yotes are more common also but never get a chance to whack them! Maybe the deer are just getting smarter then me now,yea that's it.


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## treytd32

Lewis said:


> First of all I feel very fortunate to own some great hunting land just outside my back door. I noticed a drop in the deer population several years ago about the time the coyote population exploded.
> I would see the same group of does and fawns at my feeder daily during the summer.Fawns started disappearing.Next day or two you just had to look for the buzzards circleing to find a fawn carcass ravaged by coyotes.
> 
> Several years ago me and some adjoining property owners started a little old school deer management.We shoot every coyote we see and we STOPPED shooting does.We have not shot a doe in several years.
> We also feed very heavily during the fall seasons in an effort to keep and hold deer on our property that otherwise would be killed on adjoining properties where hunters shoot anything that moves.
> 
> It might be a little unconventional,but man is it working. We are seeing plenty of deer and bucks of all age groups.
> On saturday afternoon near the end of gun season I had 18 deer relaxed and feeding at the feeder.


+1.. similar experience with yotes and young deer


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## hopintocash2

bonemann, i have been hunting jefferson county for 30 years, and you forgot to mention the crazy amount of poaching that goes on there. the locals are just as much to blame for the reduced population as outsider hunters and coyotes. and yes you are right, the outside hunter boom has come and gone, and yet the deer population hasn't recovered.


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## TomC

I hunt miami and fayette co. I saw more deer in Miami co than i have in the past 5 years. Fayette co was the same it has since ive hunted it, lots of deer everywhere. I saw a min of 10 deer a day there. Ive taken 3 in miami and 1 in fayette with 1 either sex tag remaining. I think the deer populations are down in certain areas while the same if not better in others.


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## bkr43050

I have a few buddies who hunt in zone C and also in the western part of the state in Zone B. They have commented that the last few years the deer densities seem to have come much closer to the same ever since the state went to the current bag limits. Again, it may just be coincidence but I do think that there is evidence that the new bag limits have had a real effect.


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## idontknow316

I agree that the numbers are down, although I don't feel we are in trouble just yet. I do not get to hunt too often because of a thing called work. I work the dreaded second shift, and have a two year old, so time is thin. Anyhow The early part of the year I seen many deer, almost evertime I went out. After October, I've seen very little, even on the trail cam. Not sure what the deal is there. 

I admit, with the little time I have, if I have a shot at a doe, I am taking it. I usually only shoot one a year anyhow. Last year I shot two, but had trouble finding it in the dark, very poor almost nonexistentnt blood trail, so I left it lay overnight, the next morning coyotes already had my deer almost completely gone.

Anyhow, at work there is a "hardcore" bow hunter who blames the low deer numbers on crossbow hunters. Really? Because I shoot a crossbow, I am the reason numbers are down? He claims it's too easy and everyones gets deer now. Last I checked, you still need the deer to get close to get a shot, and in my neck of the woods with a much smaller herd than the southern part of the state, happens a few times a year, at least in my experience. I guess you can blame me guys.....sorry I don't shoot a compound, maybe next year, then those numbers will surely come booming back then.


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## Northern Reb

What we want as hunters (large deer population) is at odds with the goals of the ODNR and other groups with deep pockets (farmers and insurance companies).

As I said on another board....OUTLAW pushing/herding/driving.

I know people who do not put in any time all yr to this wonderful hobby and resource that we are all so passionate about. They don't have food plots or feeders. They don't have stands, or do any scouting. They don't have a single camera and spend 0 hrs in the woods. 

But when gun week comes look out. They get into groups of 10 or more people and absolutely slaughter packs of deer at a time across several counties. They shoot first and figure out how to tag later! The slaughter goes on for several days. The deer have no chance.


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## 9Left

Northern Reb said:


> What we want as hunters (large deer population) is at odds with the goals of the ODNR and other groups with deep pockets (farmers and insurance companies).
> 
> As I said on another board....OUTLAW pushing/herding/driving.
> 
> I know people who do not put in any time all yr to this wonderful hobby and resource that we are all so passionate about. They don't have food plots or feeders. They don't have stands, or do any scouting. They don't have a single camera and spend 0 hrs in the woods.
> 
> But when gun week comes look out. They get into groups of 10 or more people and absolutely slaughter packs of deer at a time across several counties. They shoot first and figure out how to tag later! The slaughter goes on for several days. The deer have no chance.


driving the woods by hunters isnt really a problem i dont think...just more of an annoyance to some people who dont use that method ( myself for one, i like to sit quietly in the woods and pursue the deer based on scouting done prior to the hunt))...poachers outweigh drivers by far


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## bkr43050

Drivers are not a problem. Driving deer has been going on for decades and in fact may have been more prominent a while back prior to the boom of archery hunting. It really does not matter how they are getting the deer. A harvest total is just that. A total number killed. And those numbers have begun to drop somewhat. If people were shooting all kinds of deer driving then they would still have their deer and the numbers would still be up.

Implying that it is necessary to have food plots and feeders in my opinion is way off base as well. I own my own property and bow hunt every year. I have been doing it on my place for over 20 years and all of a sudden it is now imperative that I have a food plot and feeders to find deer?  I agree that plots or feeders can help to condition deer to an area but I have over 50 acres and talk to neighbors hunting on another 100+ acres. To think that the deer in these 150 now chose to totally move from that large tract of land seems extreme. And again, if that were the case then guys hunting these other areas should have a boon of incoming deer...which is not the case.


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## bkr43050

idontknow316 said:


> Anyhow, at work there is a "hardcore" bow hunter who blames the low deer numbers on crossbow hunters. Really? Because I shoot a crossbow, I am the reason numbers are down? He claims it's too easy and everyones gets deer now. Last I checked, you still need the deer to get close to get a shot, and in my neck of the woods with a much smaller herd than the southern part of the state, happens a few times a year, at least in my experience. I guess you can blame me guys.....sorry I don't shoot a compound, maybe next year, then those numbers will surely come booming back then.


I think it would be hard not to laugh in that guy's face at that analysis. Again, if it was only a matter of it being easier guys would be getting their deer and the numbers would reflect that. Weapon of choice could conceivably affect the harvest but the resulting effect would just be more deer in the field for the gun hunters come slug week. I think that over the years the slug week numbers have gone down some because of archery in general becoming more prevalent. 

I think there are more deer harvested prior to slug week now than there were 20+ years ago.


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## Snyd

I have deer hunted since I was 8 and I am now 43. Last year and this year is the first time I have not hunted. The only reason why is because I had to work. I grew up in Meigs County and my dad and brother still live there and hunt there. When living at home it was normal to see truck loads of out of towners coming in to hunt. Now you hardly see any out of towners. 
I believe there is still a strong population of deer of course I wonder how many died this summer with the lack of rain. However, I also believe there are a fair amount of deer killed that are not turned in which also affects the numbers.
For me I belive there are a lot less hunters and this will continue year over year to decline. Once a person decides not to hunt anymore it affects generations down the line.
However, the one think I would like to see is that they start gun season during Thanksgiving. Most people have the time during that weekend to hunt but then its back to the busy work schedule that most have now.


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## bkr43050

If I hunted the week of Thanksgiving I would have had the same result. I think it may affect a few folks that are limited in time but for the most part guys still manage to find some time to get out. I think there were a lot of folks that did go that did not shoot anything so to me it is not a matter or limited opportunity. And if that type of reason applied then the deer population would grow, not decline.

I have a hard time believing that the number of deer killed now and not reported are really any higher than in years past. There have been guys that buck the system for many, many years. Yes the numbers may be slightly low due to these morons but haven't they always been low?



I am not implying that there are no deer in the woods but in my area it is very evident that there are a lot less.


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## bkr43050

Snyd said:


> I believe there is still a strong population of deer of course I wonder how many died this summer with the lack of rain.


I know I did not find any dead on my place this summer. And the declining numbers started a few years ago and not this season.


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## harleydan1956

I hunt 3 farms for deer, 1 in Harrison ( 750 acres), 1 in Carroll ( 119 acres)and 1 in Stark (160 acres). I have seen a big change in numbers I SEE.. but not numbers in deer. 
Carroll farm has a lot of Chesapeak workers on it, no drilling yet, but checking indicators daily. And the low flying helicopters.. geesh.. Almost blew a friend out of the tree... Corn and soybeans on 25 acres. usually bowhunt there.
Stark.. saw deer at dark, outa light, but as we drove out, saw 29 deer in 1 cornfield, skylined. And the Coyotes.. seems the carroll farm has several every few days, none on the Stark farm we heard. But the Stark farm is about 120 acres corn, 10 acres of trees. usually bowhunt there.
Harrison? No farming, all trees and cattle pastures. Saw an average of 30 deer a day. Alot of Coyotes on Harrison, Have shot several squirrel hunting and deer hunting. usually gunhunt there. 
I usually shoot my 1 buck and 2-3 does a year combined.
I see with increased traffic with people, many deer at turning nocturnal. My cameras show many deer but at dusk and throughout the night. 
Sure , some numbers are down, but areas where food is around, numbers are up. And don't forget the drought, many deer moved closer to a constant water source. Many creeks are dried up. And don't forget. Many farms are being leased by Deer Hunters, they put in Food plots, and leave food standing throughout the winter. that will keep deer off an unmanaged farm and close to food sources. 
JMO.. numbers are steady, depending on where you hunt. If you can't use as many as you kill, you are killing too many. BUT also, public property that is not "managed" but a few hunters can not withstand 6 deer a year per hunter. Impossible.


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## Snyd

Brk - I was not stating that the lack of rain is what started the decline - I was just wondering in some areas if this had an affect. Lack of rain equals lack of food. For the area we hunt I have not really seen a decline. I know over all there has been which I agree with you there are less hunters today then there were 10 years ago so one would think the population would grow. 
However, as the human population grows which it has over the past ten years I wonder how big of affect it has had on the deer. I live in a subdivision that was acres of cornfields 10 years ago. 
There are way to many scenarios to go through, I am just pointing out a few of the obvious. And yes you are correct not turning deer in has been going on for a long time however, I believe it has increasded to what extent I am not sure. There are a lot of people out there that cant afford a tag but still hunt and there are others that get one tag but shoot two deer. Again I am not sure to what extent but I believe this has increased over the years.
All I know is I like to hunt and be able to share that same experience with my son in the coming years.


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## idontknow316

bkr43050 said:


> I think it would be hard not to laugh in that guy's face at that analysis. Again, if it was only a matter of it being easier guys would be getting their deer and the numbers would reflect that. Weapon of choice could conceivably affect the harvest but the resulting effect would just be more deer in the field for the gun hunters come slug week. I think that over the years the slug week numbers have gone down some because of archery in general becoming more prevalent.
> 
> I think there are more deer harvested prior to slug week now than there were 20+ years ago.


I totally agree


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## GARNERMAN357

harleydan1956 said:


> I hunt 3 farms for deer, 1 in Harrison ( 750 acres), 1 in Carroll ( 119 acres)and 1 in Stark (160 acres). I have seen a big change in numbers I SEE.. but not numbers in deer.
> Carroll farm has a lot of Chesapeak workers on it, no drilling yet, but checking indicators daily. And the low flying helicopters.. geesh.. Almost blew a friend out of the tree... Corn and soybeans on 25 acres. usually bowhunt there.
> Stark.. saw deer at dark, outa light, but as we drove out, saw 29 deer in 1 cornfield, skylined. And the Coyotes.. seems the carroll farm has several every few days, none on the Stark farm we heard. But the Stark farm is about 120 acres corn, 10 acres of trees. usually bowhunt there.
> Harrison? No farming, all trees and cattle pastures. Saw an average of 30 deer a day. Alot of Coyotes on Harrison, Have shot several squirrel hunting and deer hunting. usually gunhunt there.
> I usually shoot my 1 buck and 2-3 does a year combined.
> I see with increased traffic with people, many deer at turning nocturnal. My cameras show many deer but at dusk and throughout the night.
> Sure , some numbers are down, but areas where food is around, numbers are up. And don't forget the drought, many deer moved closer to a constant water source. Many creeks are dried up. And don't forget. Many farms are being leased by Deer Hunters, they put in Food plots, and leave food standing throughout the winter. that will keep deer off an unmanaged farm and close to food sources.
> JMO.. numbers are steady, depending on where you hunt. If you can't use as many as you kill, you are killing too many. BUT also, public property that is not "managed" but a few hunters can not withstand 6 deer a year per hunter. Impossible.


I couldnt agree more. grew up in that area and have the same opinoin.


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## bobk

P-NUT said:


> This week or next weeks numbers will give a much better comparison as gun season for both years will be included.


The uptdated numbers are in. If I am reading the report correctly the state is up 45% with the gun numbers added in.


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman

I don't have the time to read through the entire thread but I have read a couple pages. 

I would highly agree I have seen way less deer last year and this year compared to the last 5 before that. I hunt Ottawa, Champaign, Clark, and Galia Co. No doubt there are less deer in all of the places whether the kill numbers reflect it or not. I feel like the DNR says they are in favor of helping the deer herd for the common hunter but they return with a need to lower the numbers even more where the average guy will be lucky to see a deer or two during a season. That may be what they want and there was a chart in a recent Ohio outdoors news paper that said what counties need their goal reduced and there are still many way above in numbers what they want. I don't think they are for the hunter and *Tonkovich the terminator* is going to wipe them out. Leading me to also be less likely to hunt and I also have not shot a doe this year with many chances trying to help out but it just ends up someone else shooting them it seems...

Also to move onto another subject, not sure if its just me but I have seen MANY spike and fork bucks and it seems more and more every year. Which seems like there are quite a few bucks compared to does when it wasn't always like that... When every guy is out to shoot a giant buck all these little crap bucks end up passing on the genes and before long it may be tough to find a big boy. Oh well time will tell wish there was something we could do!


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## bkr43050

NorthSouthOhioFisherman said:


> Also to move onto another subject, not sure if its just me but I have seen MANY spike and fork bucks and it seems more and more every year. Which seems like there are quite a few bucks compared to does when it wasn't always like that... When every guy is out to shoot a giant buck all these little crap bucks end up passing on the genes and before long it may be tough to find a big boy. Oh well time will tell wish there was something we could do!


I think all you are seeing there is simply a young deer. While a buck can have bad antlers due to something genetic, they tend to have at least something more than spikes or forks. When a young buck breeds a doe that does not imply that the offspring are going to have inferior antler quality.


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## bkr43050

bobk said:


> The uptdated numbers are in. If I am reading the report correctly the state is up 45% with the gun numbers added in.


Where are you reading this information from? I have not read anything compiling year-to-date numbers but the gun week is down.



> Hunters enjoyed great weather as they harvested 86,964 white-tailed deer during Ohios traditional week-long deer-gun season, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife. The harvest yielded an anticipated slight decrease of 3.7 percent from 2011, when 90,282 deer were checked.


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## JCoeRBK

crittergitter said:


> I am very curious to see if there is a significant drop in tag sales this year. There should be some drop as this year was the first that the $15 doe tags were no good in Zone C during gun week. I wonder if the tag sales will drop drastically next year with so many upset at the deer numbers they are seeing where they typically prefer to hunt.
> 
> I wonder how far the numbers of tag sales would have to drop before the DOW would react. I wonder how they would react.


I hope they do... all of the previously mentioned complaints will have a lot of people who are out there expecting to see 20 deer a sit taking up another hobby. If they all ran to tree stands at shooting time how much fun would it be.

Get out, enjoy the outdoors and don't be wasteful. Too many people are concerned about over killing/poaching when things aren't great. News flash, this has always been an issue and always will. I do agree the new "tagging system" is bogus.

I would personally like to see a comparison of the number of duplicate licences and tags issued in years past to this year.

:T


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## bobk

Deer tags sold in 2008-611,442
Deer tags sold in 2011-603,549 
Seems to be a steady decline in sales but the harvest is up this year?


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## bkr43050

Bobk,

I found the info that you were looking at on the ODNR site now. And I have to say I think they are way out of whack on the numbers. For starters, if I look at the numbers as of 11/20/12 they show last year's total at 62,838. The number they are showing as of 12/05/12 is only 117,558 which is 54,720 for slug week and the week prior. The slug season harvest last year was 73,656. If you take last year's bonus week and muzzleloader season (36,631) and add to the running total that would total 154,188. That would imply that there are another 65,560 deer were killed from this point on out for last year not including the bonus gun and muzzleoader? Something is definitely not right with those numbers.


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## bkr43050

bobk said:


> Deer tags sold in 2008-611,442
> Deer tags sold in 2011-603,549
> Seems to be a steady decline in sales but the harvest is up?


I still disagree that the harvest is up. If you read my previous post you will see where I am coming from. I don't think their numbers are reliable enough on that running total comparison to trust what they are posting.


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## bkr43050

2008 harvest - 252,017
2011 harvest - 219,748

Tags sold - -1.3%
Harvest total - -12.8%


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## bobk

I'm not sure if they have the gun numbers in the Dec 4th report or not. They have a note saying next week will have all gun numbers in the report. Don't know what the heck is the truth. I'm not siding with the fact that we have plenty of deer in the state just showing how the numbers are not making much sense with what many have said about deer in their areas.


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## bkr43050

Since the 2012 increase from 11/20/12 to 12/05/12 was 91,827 I would say it certainly appears that they are in this year's totals. I need to try to remember to check those numbers next week again. Hopefully they will fall more in line.


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## viper1

I know around here any way there was a lot more killed on the high around me. And my cameras show them every night. And we always seen between 1-6 deer in the day light on my property. But only seen two all summer long. But cameras still showing a strong herd here.


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## P-NUT

bobk said:


> I'm not sure if they have the gun numbers in the Dec 4th report or not. They have a note saying next week will have all gun numbers in the report. Don't know what the heck is the truth. I'm not siding with the fact that we have plenty of deer in the state just showing how the numbers are not making much sense with what many have said about deer in their areas.


I don't think all of last years gun season numbers are included. I believe that the end of last years gun season was more than 67 days into the season. The chart is is a days of season comparison and not a season to season comparison. Next week should show us a better comparison.


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## gpb1111

My thoughts...

1. People say they see so many deer at their feeders during the night and hardly any during the day and that is not like how it used to be. Did you have trail cameras that took pictures at night 10, 20, 30, 40+ years ago to know that there is some sort of trend? Please explain.

2. The positives of maintaining a deer population in the state of Ohio: food, aesthetics, tourism, hunting for heritage, money from hunting, conservation funding, auto body work, auto technician work, etc (and many more etc's).... Negatives of maintaining a deer population in the state of Ohio: car-deer accidents including injuries, death, repair costs, losses in farmers harvests, increased coyote populations, etc (and many more etc's)..... The DOW has to manage the population of deer in the state of Ohio with all these factors (and many more), in mind. I would have to say the roughly 2400 deer-car injuries and 23 deaths between 2006-07 outweigh the fact that you have ONLY been able to harvest 3 deer instead of 5 this year and that you ONLY saw 15 deer this year instead of 25 during the first two days of gun season.

3. If you are honestly struggling to put meat on the table due to the decreased deer population, you have a right to be upset. I feel the most passionately for these groups.

4. If you are one the people on here who states you NEED the meat, I would suggest cutting your online services bill and start purchasing on sale meats at Kroger for your deep freezer.

5. As we continue into this "recession" more deer will be harvested and less deer will be reported; therefore, the numbers outlined by ODNR for deer harvests become more and more inaccurate as the recession continues.

P.S. - I am currently hunting some property I just received permission to hunt this past summer that is adjacent to a HUGE apple orchard, so if I would have read this post last year, I may not be so rational with my comments. I have been very fortunate this year (typically see 2-3 deer per hour on average).


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## AEFISHING

I counted 27 deer in a field last night. Most I have ever seen in this field. 25 were does or button bucks.


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## r9ptbuck

Deer numbers in our neck of the woods in Carroll County are down. I spend tons of hours on our farm and can testify that they have been trending down the last several years. Still have quailty deer but no longer quantity!


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## viper1

gpb1111

1.I say it because I did spend the last 40+ years in the woods day and night some times. Also have had cameras before regular trail cameras as we made ours from 35 mm with trip flashes. And lot of trail wires also.
2. Being involved with hunters safty and all the different sporting groups I have been privy to a lot of ODNR conversations and meetings. Including the district 3 meetings. I also worked as a officer in the federation of Sportsman Clubs. Which keeps a close eye on whats going on in the state and county.We also donate lots of money to stocking and other plans of ODNR like the handicap docks.
3. I do supplement my meat with wild game. As over 50% is.
4. No got money to buy meat, prefer wild to store bought. And on my retirement really helps my income stretch.
5. You cold partly be right on this one. But I doubt it for the most part. I could shoot deer at my house year round. But don't as I don't Poach. And I think unless it gets pretty extreme others wont either. Also the ones that would already do! And if a person was hungry I could understand it.
6. So just because you have a good place to hunt makes you think rationally? Maybe were in bigger trouble then i thought. Good luck with your deer!


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## crappiedude

AEFISHING said:


> I counted 27 deer in a field last night. Most I have ever seen in this field. 25 were does or button bucks.


If you need help in reducing that, give me a call


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## Northern Reb

bkr43050 said:


> Drivers are not a problem. Driving deer has been going on for decades and in fact may have been more prominent a while back prior to the boom of archery hunting. It really does not matter how they are getting the deer. A harvest total is just that. A total number killed. And those numbers have begun to drop somewhat. If people were shooting all kinds of deer driving then they would still have their deer and the numbers would still be up.
> 
> Implying that it is necessary to have food plots and feeders in my opinion is way off base as well. I own my own property and bow hunt every year. I have been doing it on my place for over 20 years and all of a sudden it is now imperative that I have a food plot and feeders to find deer?  I agree that plots or feeders can help to condition deer to an area but I have over 50 acres and talk to neighbors hunting on another 100+ acres. To think that the deer in these 150 now chose to totally move from that large tract of land seems extreme. And again, if that were the case then guys hunting these other areas should have a boon of incoming deer...which is not the case.


You live in a much different neck of the woods than myself. There are almost no hills or valleys here...just farm land and scattered wood lots. You can see for miles in most any direction which allows for very long and poor shots. Our deer population and habitat is a fraction of what you have so when wood lots are pushed in a coordinated fashion the few deer available are wiped out. Not only do they have pushers and people on the perimeter, but they also have others in trucks ready to drive quickly to the next wood lot if a couple happen to escape or are wounded. 

Regarding food plots and feeders-- We use them in an attempt to keep deer on our property and away from the neighbors who push and shoot everything in sight.


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## Lucky Touch Charters

The ODNR wants to lower the deer herd. i would argue the fact that what they are doing along with the diseases is working. I hunt private land in Washington County. This land is surrounded by private and most of it is hunted as well. The quality of deer is there but not the quantity. i use to see 20-30 deer on opening day of gun. Now I do not see that many in 3 days of gun. In the urbans and in the parks the deer herd is over crowded. Hence why the ODNR wants the herd numbers lowered. I believe as a hunter you should hunt your area as you feel necessary. For example in Washington county i kill less does. In urban North East Ohio i kill more does than I did before. When you take into consideration that each doe will have 2 and sometimes 3 yearlings every doe killed will remove 6-14 deer from the future herd over the next few years. I feel as hunters we must conserve our resources. just because thestate allows us to kill too many deer doesn't mean we must do it. because if everybody did there would be no deer. The ODNR needs to do a better job of thinning the herd in specific areas and not state wide.


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## crittergitter

You mention urban deer. If this is such a problem then why isn't the state doing more to gain hunters access in those areas. For example, there was a Special Draw hunt on a nature preserve in Delaware county last year. I think 8 people got drawn. Maybe they should have drawn double that number. Why don't they do this every year for EVERY nature preserve in the state (or at least every one in or near an urban area). That would help to decrease the number of "urban" deer. It might also pull some of the hunting pressure away from some of the already over-hunted rural areas (both public and private). Why aren't they doing more with metro parks for access? With urban sprawl rampant in most of the metro areas, why haven't they updated the urban zone maps in 20 years? 

The more I think about the entire deer regulation plan, the more questions I have about it. 

Though, I did do a search among other states and found similar trends. The DNR for other states are trying to reduce the herd and hunters for the most part are not pleased with this.


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## bkr43050

Northern Reb said:


> You live in a much different neck of the woods than myself. There are almost no hills or valleys here...just farm land and scattered wood lots. You can see for miles in most any direction which allows for very long and poor shots. Our deer population and habitat is a fraction of what you have so when wood lots are pushed in a coordinated fashion the few deer available are wiped out. Not only do they have pushers and people on the perimeter, but they also have others in trucks ready to drive quickly to the next wood lot if a couple happen to escape or are wounded.


I am very familiar with the hunting in your area as I have many friends and family in that area and I am not disputing that some guys hunt as you mentioned. While I am not approving of their method the point I am making is that a harvest total is a harvest total regardless of the method used. If the method that you described is being used and resulting in an over-harvest then I feel that primary blame is not the hunting method but rather the bag limits. If they were all stand hunters, bowhunters, etc. but were highly efficient and they could still attain that harvest total would that make their hunting method wrong? I say no. It is still the bag limit that is the problem in that case. I am not saying this because I am a part of any drive hunting groups either. In fact, I have never hunted in a group large than myself and my 3 boys. But as far as method, I say to each his own.


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## Lundy

Brian,

I disagree with you 100 % when it comes to deer drives not related to harvest or over harvest but rather the tags permitted.

I have the extreme please of watching the 20+ person organized drives firsthand every year and have had this pleasure for as long as I have hunting the property that I hunt.

The drives lead to a much, much higher harvest rate in this immediate area than would ever occur with out them.

I also know first hand that these particular drives violate at a minimum 4 game laws with potential for many more depending upon the tag allocation of the participants.

Laws that I know as a fact the are violated on everyone of these particular droves by this group.

Shooting a second deer prior to tagging the first
Shooting a deer and having someone else tag it
Moving a deer prior to putting on a temporary tag
Using a radio to aid in the killing of deer

Probable law violations

Killing a second buck
Not having a valid deer tag
Gun plug restriction
Trespassing ( for sure when they do the drive on the East side of the property)


Unless you have witnessed these drives first hand it is hard to appreciate how effective they can be for killing deer. There is little chance that the majority of the guys participating in these drives could kill an equal number of deer without utilizing these large drive groups. So even if they have 4 tags in their pockets the only shot of them filling them all is by participating in these drives.

Much like the limit on lake Ontario salmon is 3, but when they are dispersed in the lake it is an effort to catch your 3 salmon. Yet those salmon when up the tributary in the fall are easy pickings for even the unskilled with a snagging hook.

I am not against drives in general, I participated in many a drive with my brother and father years ago and there are many a family tradition in driving deer. I do very much dislike and disagree with these large drive groups. My dislike is based solely on first hand observation of the same group for over 20 years.

I would favor a heartbeat a restriction of no more than 5 participants in any deer drive


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## Lundy

Also bag limits are not designed with the idea that everyone will fill their bag limits, in fact not everyone will kill even one deer, far from it.

The average hunter success rate is considered and built into the bag limits.

The methodology plays a huge role in hunter success rate and the overall harvest numbers, not the number of tags sold.


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## reo

offshore24 said:


> The ODNR wants to lower the deer herd. i would argue the fact that what they are doing along with the diseases is working. I hunt private land in Washington County. This land is surrounded by private and most of it is hunted as well. The quality of deer is there but not the quantity. i use to see 20-30 deer on opening day of gun. Now I do not see that many in 3 days of gun. In the urbans and in the parks the deer herd is over crowded. Hence why the ODNR wants the herd numbers lowered. I believe as a hunter you should hunt your area as you feel necessary. For example in Washington county i kill less does. In urban North East Ohio i kill more does than I did before. When you take into consideration that each doe will have 2 and sometimes 3 yearlings every doe killed will remove 6-14 deer from the future herd over the next few years. I feel as hunters we must conserve our resources. just because thestate allows us to kill too many deer doesn't mean we must do it. because if everybody did there would be no deer. *The ODNR needs to do a better job of thinning the herd in specific areas and not state wide*.


One of the best sentences in this entire thread! NAILED IT!


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## Lundy

Check out these stellar hunters.

How many of them could kill a deer that was not being pushed to them? They can barely kill one that is pushed in front of them. 

Anyone hunt like this? I know many do.

These and other like them is why I would modify the law for drives.


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## dgatrell27

I live in Guernsey county. I feel your completely wrong in the assumption that there are less deer. It's not that there is less deer, there is less places to hunt! 90 present of Guernsey/noble that is actually farm land has been leased by clubs, groups, or just individuals. They plant food plots, hunt smart, and only take a few deer off there lease. Instead of the 20-30 person deer drives that everyone was used to seeing a few yrs ago, hunters are doing more sitting in blinds, and tree-stands. The deer aren't being pushed, or Drove from property to property. In turn they stay where there safe. The days of knocking on doors is a thing of the past! Were a victim of our own demise. The farmers are making big money for absolutely nothing. By no means do I blame them, that's good business on there end.


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## crittergitter

dgatrell27 said:


> I live in Guernsey county. I feel your completely wrong in the assumption that there are less deer. It's not that there is less deer, there is less places to hunt! 90 present of Guernsey/noble that is actually farm land has been leased by clubs, groups, or just individuals. They plant food plots, hunt smart, and only take a few deer off there lease. Instead of the 20-30 person deer drives that everyone was used to seeing a few yrs ago, hunters are doing more sitting in blinds, and tree-stands. The deer aren't being pushed, or Drove from property to property. In turn they stay where there safe. The days of knocking on doors is a thing of the past! Were a victim of our own demise. The farmers are making big money for absolutely nothing. By no means do I blame them, that's good business on there end.


You do know you're in the minority on this issue right. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## fishingful

Bottom line is we need more trappers to reduce the cyote population. That's hard becuse you won't get much for your effort. And make a bag limmit on deer on a county by county basis. Just like the rest of goverment we gen. Everything. If the fawn aren't surviving then they can't grow to reproduce. Selective harvest takes a point in all of this too as well as 20 bucks for a tag and puting 80lbs of meat in the fridge during a bad economy. I don't know what the ansure is.


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## Guest

I hunt on a private farm in Holmes county and I would say the deer population is lower in my opinion. I spend 40+ days out hunting and I just simply do not see as many as I did a few years ago and it has been a slow steady decrease. 

This year I am more concerned about the number of quality deer I am seeing. I have seen a steady decrease in the number of BIG bucks(150+). A few years ago I would see several in a season...out hunting, on trail cams and driving around and that has dwindled to zero this season. I know there are some out there but this has been something that many people I know that spend a lot of time afield have reported. It seems to be wide spread. 

My ultimate concern is this.....With a slow season....people begin to settle for smaller bucks and don't pass up ones the normally would. I have passed on 2 real nice 8 pointers but one was killed during gun season and the other has to survive 2 more firearms seasons and 2 more months of bow hunting. If he is killed...I have seen absolutely nothing that will grow to replace it next year. I have seen several that will be nice next year but I am left to wonder if a lack of big bucks will lead to more of those deer being taken?!? 

It takes a long time to replace a really big buck....4 to 5 years and I am afraid it is getting tougher all the time for one to survive that long. 

I realize this is not the case everywhere but I would imagine it is not isolated either. I just see my hunting being slow for at least the next couple seasons and maybe for a long time. I would be interested to hear if anyone has seen this in their area.

I would be in favor of shortening the season or at least making the length of time you can harvest a buck shorter.


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## dgatrell27

Im a sitter myself. Just sayin. I myself dont have issues seeing deer. Was just stating my opinion on the subject


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## bkr43050

Kim,
I don't disagree with your view of the drive hunters that are next to you. It is not my cup of tea either but example goes beyond the technique concept of deer drives and starts getting in to many violations. Your entire list of violations is wrongdoing whether it is enacted in a deer drive or hunting alone or with a couple of buddies. Those violations should all be prosecuted similarly. If deer drives were not conducted and did not result in large harvests many areas of the state would probably have bag limits 2, 3, or 4 times what they are now. You are right guys would very rarely reach those limits but if the state wants "X" number of deer killed then they will raise the numbers until they get there. The only point I was making by saying that drives are a means to an end. Without them the state would be facing a much larger task of curbing the population in many areas.


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## Lundy

Brian,

I think you are trying to have it both ways.

You say the bag limits and harvest are too high but that a method that ensures higher harvest than would occur without it's use has no impact. The harvest in my immediate area would drop substantially with no further reduction in tags or harvest restrictions.

By the way I am not opposed to legal harvest of deer right up to the maximum, I am very much against how some portion of that harvest is achieved.

In addition I have called the GW in Athens and the District 4 office more than once about the witnessed violations to no avail.


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## bkr43050

I agree that from my standpoint the limits are too high from the standpoint that the deer density seems to be thinner than I would prefer. But I think if the bag limits were lower guys would still drive hunt in the same manner to get the number of deer they desire. I agree they would have to spend substantially more time in the woods in a lot of areas if they did not drive the deer. With the current bag limits in place the harvest would be lower if drives were not allowed. But as a result of that the state would then make an assessment that more deer need harvested and then raise the bag limit to get the numbers they want.


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## Lundy

Ohio has a hunter success rate of around 33%

The overall success rate has more impact on total harvest than the legal harvest numbers. That is why methodology of harvest plays so large a role in harvest numbers.

If every hunter in this state killed one deer we would have had to borrow a few deer from IN, PA, WV and KY because we don't have enough deer in the state for every hunter to kill ONE deer.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Hun...wmanydeerhunterstake/tabid/23949/Default.aspx


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## bkr43050

As I said I don't like the method of drive hunting myself either. I know some guys who do it in a respectable manner but I also know some who admittedly trespass and group shoot and tag later. Those are clear violations and should be fined when caught. But I also have had to deal with trespassers on my place who are not drive hunters. I have known guys who stand hunt and shoot does for a buddy to tag as well. Again a violation that warrants a fine.

I imagine that eliminating drive hunting would get rid of some of the riff-raff because some of those folks simply don't have the patience to hunt otherwise. But I think many of them would still resort to similar violations even if they were not driving deer. They hunt with little respect for the rules in any situation. 

I had a guy on my neighboring property say that the guys hunting behind us were running an ATV around to push the deer to the kids on youth season. Some example they are setting for them. What a way to ensure that the slob hunter mentality gets carried on to the next generation.


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## bkr43050

Lundy said:


> Ohio has a hunter success rate of around 33%
> 
> The overall success rate has more impact on total harvest than the legal harvest numbers. That is why methodology of harvest plays so large a role in harvest numbers.
> 
> If every hunter in this state killed one deer we would have had to borrow a few deer from IN, PA, WV and KY because we don't have enough deer in the state for every hunter to kill ONE deer.
> 
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Hun...wmanydeerhunterstake/tabid/23949/Default.aspx


I understand that and over the years that success rate has led the state to determine their target bag limits. They obviously do not expect that guys will get their 3 deer limit or 6 deer limit if they live in that zone. The numbers are increased in their attempt to increase the grand total harvest. If our success rates were a lot higher than they are now we would still be hunting with bag limits of 1 or perhaps 2 deer.


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## bkr43050

Kim,

As you mentioned the stated hunter success rate is usually in the area of 33% but I am wondering if that number is really understated. The reason I say that is that I am not sure how they figure in landowners permits. I know that my deer killed go in to the total and I am assuming at that point they add a permit as if I purchased one? If not then the number would be inflated. Even if they do it that way then that would assume that all landowner hunters have 100% success rate? They would have no way of assuming that I was still hunting and had an unfilled tag.

I have never been able to find any information in the summaries that talk about how many deer are killed on landowner's tags or how they are treated in the counts. I would have to think that number is rather sizable.


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## Northern Reb

bkr43050 said:


> I am very familiar with the hunting in your area as I have many friends and family in that area and I am not disputing that some guys hunt as you mentioned. While I am not approving of their method the point I am making is that a harvest total is a harvest total regardless of the method used. If the method that you described is being used and resulting in an over-harvest then I feel that primary blame is not the hunting method but rather the bag limits. If they were all stand hunters, bowhunters, etc. but were highly efficient and they could still attain that harvest total would that make their hunting method wrong? I say no. It is still the bag limit that is the problem in that case. I am not saying this because I am a part of any drive hunting groups either. In fact, I have never hunted in a group large than myself and my 3 boys. But as far as method, I say to each his own.


I guess I would not have such a big problem with drive hunting if they did it ethically, legally and in smaller groups. I admit there have been yrs when bow season has not gone very well and no deer had crossed my path during the first few days of gun season....and I have _considered_ doing the drives when asked. I just can't bring myself to hunt like that...knowing that your expected to shoot up the running pack and then figure out how to tag later  

These groups know all the farmers so they get land owner tags as well which is a whole other issue that needs to be addressed.


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## AEFISHING

I watched that you tube video awhile ago. I was amazed no one got shot. They sure were having fun though. Why you would post something like that online is beyond me.


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## dgatrell27

When I was a kid, my family all hunted togeather in drives. unkles, cousins, neighbors, friends, sometimes we would have 30 or more people in a group. wasn't nothing like the video. Do I think there should be laws against driving deer? Hell no, theres enough laws imposed on hunters! that's just giving activist another leg in their battle to eliminate hunting period. As long as the meat goes in the freezer and not thrown over a hill who really cares. that's what hunting was originally about, putting meat on the table for familys. Not for trophys, not for bragging writes, or anything else. as with anything, there will be people who abuse there rights, why punish the whole for the misuse of a few. A local game warden informed an entire hunter safety class that no matter how legal you try to be chances are they can give you a ticket at any time for something. Most people try to be legal, after hearing what the gw said how many of you have been legal every time you've went out? forgotten wallet, or something as simple as a pencil to fill out the tag? theres a lot to be said about governing hunting regulations that none of us think about when ranting about are dislikes. differences are what made this country, so why try to make everyone hunt the same way because some don't like there actions! just my take on the matter, some may agree, some may disagree, but everyone will have their own opinion.


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## Stampede

The video,they are not hunters, just killers.


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## Lewis

Kim...watched the video you posted. Makes me sick watching these slob hunters.Wonder how many they wound every season?
Guess I have just come to hate all the he-man bullshit that comes with this type of hunter.
Although its not my style,I guess small drives could be performed somewhat ethically. 

Hey....I wonder if I can pull a 300' trawl net behind my boat up on Erie?
Just pick out a limit of Walleye for everyone on the boat and throw the rest back?
Dont see much difference between this and large deer drives.
It always baffled me that the ODNR has plenty of laws regarding number of hooks and rods to make fishing "fair chase" but nothing when it comes to massive deer drives.


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## bkr43050

I have seen plenty of unethical/slob/dangerous hunters over the years that were not even associated with drives. I have found plenty of gut shot shot on my place that came from neighboring properties where they don't drive deer but they unload at long range with poor shots and don't follow up on their shots if the deer don't fall. I think there are plenty of guys who could use some lessons in respecting the animal, nature, property lines, and other hunters. To suggest that drive hunters make up that group of people would be leaving a lot of guys out. And on the flip side it would be accusing a lot of hunters of wrongdoing who may be following every law. There probably are a larger majority of the problem guys within the drive hunting group but I don't think the answer is to ban drives. These slob hunters will either ignore the rule and continue or they will continue to violate any number of rules on their own. If they are breaking laws then nail them in the current structure. 

Unfortunately we can't fix stupid.


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## Lundy

I never said I was in favor of eliminating drives, just defining them better by determining maximum number of participants, much like the 3 slug rule for the guns.

I also agree there are slob hunters in all segments of hunting it is not exclusive to any one group, nor does one group even lay claim to a larger percentage of slob hunters.

It is all about fair chase and a hunting methodology that lends itself by it's very nature to "problems" not associated with other hunting methods.


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## buckeyebowman

offshore24 said:


> The ODNR wants to lower the deer herd. i would argue the fact that what they are doing along with the diseases is working. I hunt private land in Washington County. This land is surrounded by private and most of it is hunted as well.
> The quality of deer is there but not the quantity. i use to see 20-30 deer on opening day of gun. Now I do not see that many in 3 days of gun. In the urbans and in the parks the deer herd is over crowded. Hence why the ODNR wants the herd numbers lowered. I believe as a hunter you should hunt your area as you feel necessary. For example in Washington county i kill less does. In urban North East Ohio i kill more does than I did before. When you take into consideration that each doe will have 2 and sometimes 3 yearlings every doe killed will remove 6-14 deer from the future herd over the next few years. I feel as hunters we must conserve our resources. just because thestate allows us to kill too many deer doesn't mean we must do it. because if everybody did there would be no deer. The ODNR needs to do a better job of thinning the herd in specific areas and not state wide.





crittergitter said:


> You mention urban deer. If this is such a problem then why isn't the state doing more to gain hunters access in those areas. For example, there was a Special Draw hunt on a nature preserve in Delaware county last year. I think 8 people got drawn. Maybe they should have drawn double that number. Why don't they do this every year for EVERY nature preserve in the state (or at least every one in or near an urban area). That would help to decrease the number of "urban" deer. It might also pull some of the hunting pressure away from some of the already over-hunted rural areas (both public and private). Why aren't they doing more with metro parks for access? With urban sprawl rampant in most of the metro areas, why haven't they updated the urban zone maps in 20 years?
> 
> The more I think about the entire deer regulation plan, the more questions I have about it.
> 
> Though, I did do a search among other states and found similar trends. The DNR for other states are trying to reduce the herd and hunters for the most part are not pleased with this.


Two posts in a row that really strike a nerve with me. My brother in law also hunts a private farm in Washington Co., and I've been going down with him for about the past 5-6 years. In Oct. and Nov. we went down twice for bow. In 8 full days of hunting I saw 2 deer and he saw 3 or 4! This place used to be just loaded with deer! We're thinking of going down for muzzleloader, but are now wondering if it would be a waste of time. And we've both checked to see if there was an outbreak of EHD due to the drought, but have found nothing saying so. 

I used to run a sales route in some of the eastern suburbs of Cleveland. OMG! It could be a deer hunter's paradise if access was available. The ODNR can draw the urban boundaries wherever they want, and raise the limits to whatever level they want, but, without access it's all an exercise in futility! The ODNR can't force any village, town, township, city, or private landowner to grant access. Perhaps they're depending on us to gain our own. Also, you have cities like Solon who, instead of allowing licensed hunters to thin the heard, spend taxpayer money to hire a sharpshooter outfit instead!


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## crittergitter

Lundy said:


> Ohio has a hunter success rate of around 33%
> 
> The overall success rate has more impact on total harvest than the legal harvest numbers. That is why methodology of harvest plays so large a role in harvest numbers.
> 
> If every hunter in this state killed one deer we would have had to borrow a few deer from IN, PA, WV and KY because we don't have enough deer in the state for every hunter to kill ONE deer.
> 
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Hun...wmanydeerhunterstake/tabid/23949/Default.aspx


That chart is from last year after many areas of the state had the herd numbers knocked down for several years. I would LOVE to see that chart for the 2001, 2002, or 2003 seasons when deer were much more abundant. I bet it would look a LOT different than the 2011 chart.


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## bkr43050

crittergitter said:


> That chart is from last year after many areas of the state had the herd numbers knocked down for several years. I would LOVE to see that chart for the 2001, 2002, or 2003 seasons when deer were much more abundant. I bet it would look a LOT different than the 2011 chart.


Actually not a whole lot different. It looks like last year's number was 36.4% which shows as lowest since 2001. I am wondering if part of that was due to the unused antlerless tags expiring on guys.
2001 - 35.2%
2002 - 40.3%
2003 - 38.3%
2004 - 41.6%
2005 - 40.7%
2006 - 43.7%
2007 - 40.3%
2008 - 41.2%
2009 - 41.8%
2010 - 39.3%
2011 - 36.4%


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## dgatrell27

Well stated, I myself have seen some real winners on opening day of pheasant season at saltfork. Bad enough we quit hunting there. Got rained on 4 times and one guy got shot himself! Luckly he was far away enough not to do real damage.


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## Weekender#1

Hey how do you like ice fishing for Smelt ? Oh you have not done it, WELL lets make it Illegal. 
Careful Guys.


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## streamstalker

I'm not out there hunting them, so I have no stake in this discussion. 

Critter, I'm sure you remember our conversation about deer when we were out fishing this year. The first time I went fishing there was six years ago. I saw deer everywhere at that time--numbers where they could do some serious impact on crops and lawns. I still see them everytime up there, but not in the freakish numbers I saw that year.


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## reo

Lundy said:


> Check out these stellar hunters.
> 
> How many of them could kill a deer that was not being pushed to them? They can barely kill one that is pushed in front of them.
> 
> Anyone hunt like this? I know many do.
> 
> These and other like them is why I would modify the law for drives.
> 
> iowa deer hunting 2009 deer drive big bucks poupard style - YouTube


It is from witnessing these tactics (freaking whistles and all) in Ohio that I no longer hunt during gun season.


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## turkeyt

Less deer to hunt, get used to it because that is the plan to get the deer herds in check with what the DNR wants. The problem is thousands of hunters just don't get it. The govt. makes the rules for you in everyday life and the DNR does the same for hunters. Their projections are always saying that there will be plenty of deer for this season when they should say you will hunt your tails off to see deer. Sad thing is hunters believe them because they tell the truth. right?? Then throw in all of the baiting, feeding or trying to get an advantage crap. This keeps alot of deer close to housing and out of a hunters reach. I remember when i first started hunting Ohio and it is about like it is now. Everyone reaped the benefits of a larger deer herd back a few years ago but, the DNR and game Biologist make the rules. That means the hunter must adapt, you know just like the deer do. I seriously doubt hunters will adapt because real hunting has become a lost art. After the first day hardly anyone seems to be moving any deer so the deer sit tight and start feeding after dark. Every evening when you drive out most of you probably see deer standing in yards and along areas close to houses. They know when and where to hang out and feed. HUH, Just a thought


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## Hemingway

I concure on the lower deer #s. I have another theory on another factor lowering the herd. I recently started bow hunting and did a lot of early season hunting in Novemeber. I saw a lot of wounded deer that died due to bad shots etc while going to and from the place I hunt. Every day and week I would see unrecovered deer. My guess is that with the popularity of bow hunting and the time you need to spend to hone your skills, many deer are killed due to beginner and novice archers.


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## Lundy

bkr43050 said:


> Actually not a whole lot different. It looks like last year's number was 36.4% which shows as lowest since 2001. I am wondering if part of that was due to the unused antlerless tags expiring on guys.
> 2001 - 35.2%
> 2002 - 40.3%
> 2003 - 38.3%
> 2004 - 41.6%
> 2005 - 40.7%
> 2006 - 43.7%
> 2007 - 40.3%
> 2008 - 41.2%
> 2009 - 41.8%
> 2010 - 39.3%
> 2011 - 36.4%


The ODNR number for success rate in 2011 was 33%

The numbers you show are a success ratio of deer tags sold, not hunter success rates.

The hunter success ratio I am looking for is based upon the number of successful hunters, not the number of tags used.


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## crittergitter

Lundy said:


> The ODNR number for success rate in 2011 was 33%
> 
> Anyway how does the number of tags play into success ratio?
> 
> The success ratio is based upon the number of successful hunters, not the number of tags used.


Correct Lundy. The numbers posted by BKR were not necessarily what I was looking for. I was wondering if they number of hunters filling a tag beyond #2 or beyond #3 was different 10 years ago as compared to last year. Though, I don't see that published anywhere.


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## crappiedude

Hemingway said:


> I concure on the lower deer #s. I have another theory on another factor lowering the herd. I recently started bow hunting and did a lot of early season hunting in Novemeber. I saw a lot of *wounded deer that died due to bad shots etc while going to and from the place I hunt*. *Every day and week I would see unrecovered deer*. My guess is that with the popularity of bow hunting and the time you need to spend to hone your skills, many deer are killed due to beginner and novice archers.


While traveling? You mean along the roads? Just curious.
I've been hunting for 39 years and in that time, I ran across maybe 8 or 10. All of these were while fishing or hunting. I have to say, I haven't seen any "while traveling".

I feel the decline in deer population is mainly due to the ODNR's goal to reduce the size of deer herd and to a lesser extent the exploding coyote population.
When the coyotes first showed up in our hunting area, they destroyed the turkey population. We went from seeing turkeys every time we went hunting to not seeing a turkey for 6 straingt years. 
Then we noticed them chasing deer. Not going after just fawns, but chasin adult deer during hunting season.
Now we shoot every yote we can and the populations had begun to rebound. I feel that as populations dwindle, intrest in the sport will decline. Once the intrest in the sport declines, the populations will then rebound. Once the populations rebound, intrest will grow.
Kind of like crappie populations. Ups and downs.


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## crittergitter

A lot of people have offered some great thoughts, ideas, conjecture. I appreciate all that is being shared here. I would like to point out a few things that I feel would be *relative* constants. I say relative, because of course they aren't exactly constant, but the impact shouldn't change drastically from one year to the next.

* food sources: people have been planting food plots and baiting for years. That shouldn't have a large disparaging impact from one year to the next.

* coyotes are impacting the herd numbers. I don't doubt that they have some impact as they do prey on deer (particularly fawns). However, I don't think we have an out-of-control coyote population booming across the state. In fact, I saw more yotes while deer hunting 3-6 years ago than I have the last 2 years. 

* habitat changes, preferences and going nocturnal as an adjustment to hunting pressure. I don't think deer learned a new trick in the last two years. These are things deer have been doing for decades. I have approximately 28 different spots that I hunt throughout the season (gun and archery). I have hunted every type of terrain, cover, thicket, escape route, travel corridor, oak flat, and open field you can think of. The deer didn't move to the next county.

* there have been new hunters joing the sport every year since the beginning of time. Of course a few deer go unrecovered every year regardless of weapon used and that is unfortunate. Though, I don't think it is wildly different from one year to the next.


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## Captain Kevin

Just a few things to keep in mind.
1. Running deer drives through the same spots for 9 days, shooting everything that jumps up will destroy an area over 2 years. You can't just shoot 10 deer, when the population was at 10, and expect to have something to hunt the next year. It's simple Biology. You must have seed animals. Deer drives really can ruin large plots of land.
2. Deer do not have to travel as far for food with all the food plots in use. 10 years ago a deer may have had to go a mile or 2 to get to some corn stubble due to fall plowing. Not anymore. Some places the deer bed in the food plots so they don't travel as much resulting in less visibility. Face it, I'm not going to put my food plot where you can see it from the road.
3. 95% of a coyote's diet is rodents, cats, and ground roosting birds. The number of deer killed by coyote's is tiny compared to what is whacked on the highways. Thats fact, not opinion.
4. Here is an opinion. Gun hunters should be forced to shoot from an elevated position unless physically unable. Will eliminate 90% of the tresspass issues, and errant shots go downward with less chance of background hazard.
5. All trail camera photos of deer with estimated antler growth of 150" and larger should be submitted to me, along with G.P.S. numbers for validation. I may be required to do a "dead deer measurement" on your prospect to determine if in fact you were correct.
6. This is my opinion on the states reported number on harvests.
a. It costs a lot more money for an out of stater to buy a non resident tag. However that does not equate to more meat from deer.
b. If I wanted to go to Ohio to kill a trophy like I read about in all the magazines, I'm not going to go there if the state reports harvest numbers down. It would kill the revenue generated from out of state hunters.
c. If "everyone" is killing deer like the state would have you beleive, resident tag sales go way up. 
d. In the same scenario, confidence in my ability to kill 4 deer a season because the state says there are so many deer will likely cause many hunters to just buy all 4 tags at once. Thus optimal sales.


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## Bluewalleye

reo said:


> It is from witnessing these tactics (freaking whistles and all) in Ohio that I no longer hunt during gun season.



I am with you totally. I am from Michigan where you could gun hunt for an entire week and never see another hunter in the woods. Cause there is so much state land to hunt. But here in Ohio (29 years now), gun hunters are nuts. They shoot at anything that moves. I have had bullets whistling over my head way to many times. I just completely gave up hunting during the gun season. Even on the private land that I have permission to hunt. All of the locals believe that sense they had permission 20 years ago, they are allowed to still drive all of that land.... INSANE 

I do muzzle load hunt though. Cause the idiots only have 1 shot to try and kill you....


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## ggcanteri

for the first time in a lot of years i was hunting in knox county and didn't see one deer in 3days
the same is true in richland co on the weekend
one large group of guys drove the area next to us the result was 3 shots
in the past this same drive would have multiple shots not this year


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## t.stuller

I've been hunting deer in Ohio for 20+ years and I think our ODNR has done a great job! When I started hunting you were only allowed one deer and you were lucky if you got it. My grandfather says all the time about how there wasn't even a deer hunting season around here for most of his younger life, and now there is trophy deer being taken all over the state. Ya, the numbers are down, but there still good. I personally have seen great deer numbers this year.


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## viper1

t.stuller said:


> I've been hunting deer in Ohio for 20+ years and I think our ODNR has done a great job! When I started hunting you were only allowed one deer and you were lucky if you got it. My grandfather says all the time about how there wasn't even a deer hunting season around here for most of his younger life, and now there is trophy deer being taken all over the state. Ya, the numbers are down, but there still good. I personally have seen great deer numbers this year.


Me too! Especially since if it wasn't for ODNR we wouldn't have any deer today. They were about totally hunted out at one time. Same thing with Erie. Sorry but hunting and fishing wouldn't be here to day with out them. Remember Lake Erie back in the day too! So polluted if it had fish you wouldn't eat them.
Rivers running into it use to catch fire from the pollutants.
First hunting license was issued in 1913 for 1 dollar. The first modern-day deer hunting season was open December 6-18, 1943 in Adams, Pike, and Scioto counties. The reported legal deer harvest that year was 168 bucks. Those deer taken on private lands and not required to be reported to a deer check station likely put the total deer harvest in 1943 over 200 deer.

So you can bitch all you like but this generation has the best deer hunting in Ohio Ever!


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## chopper

All this talk about numbers. Here is my take. My camera's were mostly blank. The same good farms did not produce for me or my friends. I just talked to an owner that only lets his family hunt. I figured all of my deer must have moved in there. The entire family got skunked on a farm that always produces monsters and meat. A camera placed in my second best spot over a corn pile and a salt block produced a picture of one young 6 and two different does. This was all fall. My take on things is damn coyoteys. How the hell do you spell them? anyway, they are thick in my area and getting more aggressive. We all need to thin them out for the deer population and our dogs saftey. They got my dog down twice so far, but she held her own so far.


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## viper1

chopper said:


> All this talk about numbers. Here is my take. My camera's were mostly blank. The same good farms did not produce for me or my friends. I just talked to an owner that only lets his family hunt. I figured all of my deer must have moved in there. The entire family got skunked on a farm that always produces monsters and meat. A camera placed in my second best spot over a corn pile and a salt block produced a picture of one young 6 and two different does. This was all fall. My take on things is damn coyoteys. How the hell do you spell them? anyway, they are thick in my area and getting more aggressive. We all need to thin them out for the deer population and our dogs saftey. They got my dog down twice so far, but she held her own so far.


Coyotes hardly ever attack deer! Unless they are starving and this year had plenty of food. I have them here too! And them and the deer seem to co habitat just fine. Get camera pics at night of both! I have two poodles and have seen them run a coyote. Sorry about your dogs. But their not wolves and not very much bigger then a fox. Eat vegetation and small creatures usually from rabbit size down. Of coarse like any thing else one may differ from the other. But they exist in all my best hunting spots. So I doubt it. I just think their getting smarter the the dumb hunters who hunt the same way and the same spots every year. Doing that constantly also thins the deer herd in the area. I know a fantastic spot I seen this happen. Deer don't produce in the numbers as we like. And they tend to have so many per area. Also if you hut the same area every year you'll find they will leave. You would to if that's where all you got shot at and died very often. My cameras have seen a lot every year. But im not stupid enough to kill enough in one area to hurt it. Get more property!


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## Captain Kevin

viper1 said:


> Coyotes hardly ever attack deer! Unless they are starving and this year had plenty of food. I have them here too! And them and the deer seem to co habitat just fine. Get camera pics at night of both! I have two poodles and have seen them run a coyote. Sorry about your dogs. But their not wolves and not very much bigger then a fox. Eat vegetation and small creatures usually from rabbit size down. Of coarse like any thing else one may differ from the other. But they exist in all my best hunting spots. So I doubt it. I just think their getting smarter the the dumb hunters who hunt the same way and the same spots every year. Doing that constantly also thins the deer herd in the area. I know a fantastic spot I seen this happen. Deer don't produce in the numbers as we like. And they tend to have so many per area. Also if you hut the same area every year you'll find they will leave. You would to if that's where all you got shot at and died very often. My cameras have seen a lot every year. But im not stupid enough to kill enough in one area to hurt it. Get more property!


The final 2 sentences say it all. Review item #1 in my previous post. You just can't hammer the same spots year after year. 2 years of that will ruin a spot. 2 years fella's.


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## bkr43050

Captain Kevin said:


> The final 2 sentences say it all. Review item #1 in my previous post. You just can't hammer the same spots year after year. 2 years of that will ruin a spot. 2 years fella's.


I honestly don't believe that guys are hammering around my place. I have 56 acres that sits in among other farms that get minimal hunting . A few years back we could take 2-3 does a year and never see the impact since we were seeing plenty of does even later in the season. I don't think the neighbors are harvesting very many. On opening day of slug season I did not even see a single other hunter on adjacent properties. I heard a handful of shots somewhat close but really not much. I don't think the low number in our area are a result of any sudden overharvesting. I do hear of some areas not all that far away from us that have strong numbers so it does really seem inconsistent on density from one area to the next. Puzzling to say the least.


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## Lucky Touch Charters

I do not think hunting an area every year has an impact on the population unless it is overhunted. I think sometimes we think too narrow. usually where we are hunting is not the only woods that the deer inhabit. For example lets say you hunt a 20 acre or 2000 acre plot if you kill a deer or 10 deer other deer from areas will fill in. The deer don't know the property lines and they travel and move abroad. As a fact i have a friend that bought a farm for the sole purpose of hunting. After hunting 2 seasons he decided to have his group and some amish drive it and they had killed every deer they seen to thin it out. Reason being the deer on that farm were the size of dogs and they wanted bigger deer. After a couple of years the herd was blended due to new deer moving in to a less populated region of 400 acres. There are alot of deer in Ohio just not as much as we have seen in the past. How many deer were there 40 years ago? I gun hunt the same property and have for many years. There are spots on that property where I or someone in our small group kill deer every year. I guarantee you, if you go there right now and sit for a half of a day you will come out with a deer. I have killed 2 140 class and 1 130 class bucks within a 5 year span. they have all died within 100 yards of each other. Hunting the same spot every year and killing deer without failure. There are enough deer to kill and fill a tag but nearly as much as there was a few years ago. But i do not believe it is due to hunters over hunting one area. Of course there are excpetions I shoot 2-3 deer in one spot every year and have not noticed that much a difference. i will say a few years ago there were so many dead deer from the blue tongue like disease that in some areas it stunk so bad you couldnt near the few ponds where i hunt.


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## Lewis

For anyone that doesnt think Coyotes prey on deer fawns,please read this eye opening study.



The Other Deer Hunters 
Field and Stream ^ | February 09, 2011 | Scott Bestul 

Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 9:07:37 PM by SJackson

As whitetail predators, coyotes may be more destructive than ever. 

If you think coyotes arent killing a lot of deer, youre not alone. Youre also probably wrong. Significant coyote predation has been documented in various parts of the whitetails range. But throughout much of the South, Midwest, and suburban Northeast, the coyote is a fairly new predator and is barely on the radar of many whitetail hunters and experts. 

In over three decades of deer hunting and observation, I had personally come to view them as bumbling opportunistsmore Wile E. Coyote than the Big Bad Wolfwhen it comes to killing whitetails. But a pair of new research papers presented at the February 2009 meeting of the Southeast Deer Study Group, both conducted where coyotes had not historically been a problem, reveal a different story. Whats more, with coyotes now virtually everywhere whitetails are, and their numbers exploding in many areas, their impact is likely more lethal than ever. 

The New Research In the first study, conducted by John C. Kilgo with the USDA in west-central South Carolina from 2006 to 2008, researchers implanted vaginal transmitters in pregnant does. When a doe gave birth, the transmitter was ejected along with the fawn, allowing researchers to capture the newborn deer and fit it with a monitor. When a fawn died, the monitor led researchers to the remains, where they collected DNA evidence to ID the fawns killer. 

The results were jaw-dropping. Out of the 60 fawns monitored, 44 died within eight weeks. The killers were abandonment (one), unknown predators (two), bobcats (six), and coyotes (28 confirmed and seven probables). In other words, if you include the probables, coyotes accounted for 80 percent of all mortality. 

The second study was conducted by Brent Howze and Robert Warren of the University of Georgia on a 29,000-acre area of the Peach State with a low fawn-to-doe ratio. To determine whether predation was causing poor fawn recruitment, researchers removed 23 coyotes from an 11,000-acre study block from January through August 2008. On a 7,000-acre control block of similar habitat, no predators were removed. In the fall, camera surveys showed a meager .07-to-1 fawn-to-doe ratio in the control area. In the zone where predators had been trapped, however, the ratio was a vastly better .72-to-1. 

Coyote predation is the big issue right now, declares noted University of Georgia deer researcher Dr. Karl V. Miller, who supervised the second study. Its something we must take more seriously in whitetail management going forward. 

So what can you do? First, aim for a balanced buck-to-doe ratio on your property. It ensures a short, intense breeding season, which results in a short, intense fawn dropand that narrows the window of opportunity for coyotes to kill young deer. Second, encourage grassy, brushy, young growth so does can drop fawns in comparatively predator-safe cover. Third, if you notice an upswing in local coyote numbers, you may want to decrease your doe harvest. Finally, become a coyote hunter. Youll help keep predator numbers in check, and have a lot of fun, too. .


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## viper1

bkr43050 said:


> I honestly don't believe that guys are hammering around my place. I have 56 acres that sits in among other farms that get minimal hunting . A few years back we could take 2-3 does a year and never see the impact since we were seeing plenty of does even later in the season. I don't think the neighbors are harvesting very many. On opening day of slug season I did not even see a single other hunter on adjacent properties. I heard a handful of shots somewhat close but really not much. I don't think the low number in our area are a result of any sudden overharvesting. I do hear of some areas not all that far away from us that have strong numbers so it does really seem inconsistent on density from one area to the next. Puzzling to say the least.


One thing people tend to not consider is deer don't stay in a small area.The large buck I was hunting here one year got shot 6 miles from my house. They tend to travel real big circles of over twenty miles some times. He would hit my property every 5-6 days. Does tend to run a smaller area but still can be over 10 miles. So deer hit on the road,poached or killed 10 miles away can very well affect your hunting. I know here I lost 6 deer in the summer to high way. And since deer season there has been five more killed on highway. Now thats with in 1/2 mile. And you can bet that was from then ones I see. That also dont take into consider the other 8-9 mile around me or more. So its easy to see why an area can go up and down with out the population being low else where.


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## crappiedude

viper1 said:


> Coyotes hardly ever attack deer!


I don't know about that. I've watch coyotes chase mature deer during gun season. I saw it 3 times in one day in 2010. The 3rd time, the yote ran 2 does under me and I had seen enough. I let deer off easy this time, I put my cross hairs under his ear and ended his deer chasing days. I think coyotes will take advantage of any opportunity that the need to in order to survive. I also believe their biggest threat to the deer herd would be to the fawns.
Everyone should kill all the coyotes the can.


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## viper1

crappiedude said:


> I don't know about that. I've watch coyotes chase mature deer during gun season. I saw it 3 times in one day in 2010. The 3rd time, the yote ran 2 does under me and I had seen enough. I let deer off easy this time, I put my cross hairs under his ear and ended his deer chasing days. I think coyotes will take advantage of any opportunity that the need to in order to survive. I also believe their biggest threat to the deer herd would be to the fawns.
> Everyone should kill all the coyotes the can.


But did you ever see them kill one? LOL! Two slow to catch a healthy deer and the dead ones or sick need killed. Mother natures way of cleaning up.


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## crappiedude

viper1 said:


> But did you ever see them kill one? LOL! Two slow to catch a healthy deer and the dead ones or sick need killed. Mother natures way of cleaning up.


Be sure to read my whole post 



crappiedude said:


> *.......I also believe their biggest threat to the deer herd would be to the fawns.*
> Everyone should kill all the coyotes the can.


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## AEFISHING

Yeah I am sure they do damage to fawns but I have never seen them mess with a healthy deer and I have seen them close to each other. Crappiedude has seen something I have never seen. I always shoot a yote when I get the chance though. I just wish they showed up in front of me while hunting as they do on my game cam.


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## buckeyebowman

crappiedude said:


> Be sure to read my whole post


Quote:
Originally Posted by crappiedude View Post
.......I also believe their biggest threat to the deer herd would be to the fawns.
Everyone should kill all the coyotes the can.

I have no doubt that coyotes exact some toll on the fawn population. That's something of a size they can handle. However, on a property that I hunt, every doe I saw this year had yearlings (either one or two) with her. And we do have 'yotes. I have heard that coyotes are basically lone hunters, and that they make their living from mice, rats, squirrels, rabbits, even bugs if that's what they need to stay alive. For the most part they are not pack hunters. However, I have also heard that the "Eastern Coyote", which is, in general, larger than the western coyote, has wolf genes in it. If anyone knows better, I would appreciate correction. Wolves are pack hunters, and if 'yotes start to develop this behavior, we, and our deer herd, would be in a sorry state indeed. 

A couple other interesting points were raised, particularly by viper1. Specifically, that hunters tend to pound one spot or area repeatedly, and that deer don't stay in one small area all the time. If you hunt one spot repeatedly you can come to a place where you might think there are no deer around, when, in fact, there are plenty of them but they have just gotten wise to you. Especially if you hunt a particular stand when the wind is wrong. Deer are just as good, maybe better, at patterning us as we are at patterning them. After all, their very survival depends on it! 

My friend owns 9 acres that borders a 90 acre farm, the property I referenced above. Do I imagine that deer, even a few, spend all of their time on that acreage? Heck no! They make a cycle. When they happen to be moving through our area, we might think that there has never before been a greater deer population. When they're not here we might think the opposite. But, we know the deer have been around because of the sign. Tons of it, though you might not always see deer. And as far as adaptability goes, this farm is like a case study. During gun season a local farming family drove this farm twice, once on Tuesday and again on Saturday. On Tuesday they bounced 2 doe which nobody got a shot at. And they would shoot if they had the chance since this property is just inside an urban deer zone. Saturday they didn't move a single deer as far as they know. Sunday, the last day of the season, my friend went out with about 35 minutes left in the season. He saw 8 deer! He was going to walk his usual path to his usual spot, but caught himself at the last minute. He walked around the downwind side of thicket to a place where he could observe a small, grassy paddock. Lo and behold, there were 3 deer, a doe and 2 yearlings, standing in it staring at the place he would normally pop out. Of course his dog's barking would have tipped them off. One of the yearlings was a button buck, which brings up another question.

Usually, when a doe is ready to be bred, she'll boot her yearlings away, especially the young males who will try to breed with the mother doe as well as female yearlings. We never saw that phenomenon this year. Every time we saw doe, they had their yearlings with them. I know that the precise timing of the rut may move around a little from year to year, but from opening day all the way through gun season? Seems kinda weird to me.


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## Captain Kevin

Lewis said:


> For anyone that doesnt think Coyotes prey on deer fawns,please read this eye opening study.
> 
> 
> 
> The Other Deer Hunters
> Field and Stream ^ | February 09, 2011 | Scott Bestul
> 
> Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 9:07:37 PM by SJackson
> 
> As whitetail predators, coyotes may be more destructive than ever.
> 
> If you think coyotes arent killing a lot of deer, youre not alone. Youre also probably wrong. Significant coyote predation has been documented in various parts of the whitetails range. But throughout much of the South, Midwest, and suburban Northeast, the coyote is a fairly new predator and is barely on the radar of many whitetail hunters and experts.
> 
> In over three decades of deer hunting and observation, I had personally come to view them as bumbling opportunistsmore Wile E. Coyote than the Big Bad Wolfwhen it comes to killing whitetails. But a pair of new research papers presented at the February 2009 meeting of the Southeast Deer Study Group, both conducted where coyotes had not historically been a problem, reveal a different story. Whats more, with coyotes now virtually everywhere whitetails are, and their numbers exploding in many areas, their impact is likely more lethal than ever.
> 
> The New Research In the first study, conducted by John C. Kilgo with the USDA in west-central South Carolina from 2006 to 2008, researchers implanted vaginal transmitters in pregnant does. When a doe gave birth, the transmitter was ejected along with the fawn, allowing researchers to capture the newborn deer and fit it with a monitor. When a fawn died, the monitor led researchers to the remains, where they collected DNA evidence to ID the fawns killer.
> 
> The results were jaw-dropping. Out of the 60 fawns monitored, 44 died within eight weeks. The killers were abandonment (one), unknown predators (two), bobcats (six), and coyotes (28 confirmed and seven probables). In other words, if you include the probables, coyotes accounted for 80 percent of all mortality.
> 
> The second study was conducted by Brent Howze and Robert Warren of the University of Georgia on a 29,000-acre area of the Peach State with a low fawn-to-doe ratio. To determine whether predation was causing poor fawn recruitment, researchers removed 23 coyotes from an 11,000-acre study block from January through August 2008. On a 7,000-acre control block of similar habitat, no predators were removed. In the fall, camera surveys showed a meager .07-to-1 fawn-to-doe ratio in the control area. In the zone where predators had been trapped, however, the ratio was a vastly better .72-to-1.
> 
> Coyote predation is the big issue right now, declares noted University of Georgia deer researcher Dr. Karl V. Miller, who supervised the second study. Its something we must take more seriously in whitetail management going forward.
> 
> So what can you do? First, aim for a balanced buck-to-doe ratio on your property. It ensures a short, intense breeding season, which results in a short, intense fawn dropand that narrows the window of opportunity for coyotes to kill young deer. Second, encourage grassy, brushy, young growth so does can drop fawns in comparatively predator-safe cover. Third, if you notice an upswing in local coyote numbers, you may want to decrease your doe harvest. Finally, become a coyote hunter. Youll help keep predator numbers in check, and have a lot of fun, too. .


First of all, if the USDA was involved, I wouldn't trust any report. Second, if 44 of 60 fawns were dead, and dead at the site of birth because the transmitter was there with the dead fawn, I would be more inclined to beleive the fawn was killed during the implant. Does move their fawns as soon as they can stand, and are cleaned of all amniotic fluids from birth. The scent of birth is a magnet for yotes, and since the transmitter was at the death site, the fawn was obviously dead at birth, and the other "predators deaths" were just carion signs.


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## viper1

crappiedude said:


> Be sure to read my whole post


Still say the same. we watch the deer around here all summer. my wife loves it too! I have yet to see a fawn die around here. Fact is the other night I seen two on the trail cam that's new. And I mean new born. Strange time to see that but they are here, We had 6 fawns all summer and watched them grow. That's another reason I don't kill many here. LOL! I only kill to eat,protect or defend. And don't kill much of any thing I cant eat. If you want to kill Coyotes that's up to you but it has nothing to do with deer. Now if they were wolfs you may have a point. But I have been in the woods for over 49 years and never have seen a healthy deer killed by a coyote. Now stray dogs are a different story. A dog or cat in the woods with out a collar is a target for me. People who love there pets keep collars on them and keep them home. And both will kill wild animals and the cats wont even eat them.


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## bkr43050

viper1 said:


> Still say the same. we watch the deer around here all summer. my wife loves it too! I have yet to see a fawn die around here. Fact is the other night I seen two on the trail cam that's new. And I mean new born. Strange time to see that but they are here, We had 6 fawns all summer and watched them grow. That's another reason I don't kill many here. LOL! I only kill to eat,protect or defend. And don't kill much of any thing I cant eat. If you want to kill Coyotes that's up to you but it has nothing to do with deer. Now if they were wolfs you may have a point. But I have been in the woods for over 49 years and never have seen a healthy deer killed by a coyote. Now stray dogs are a different story. A dog or cat in the woods with out a collar is a target for me. People who love there pets keep collars on them and keep them home. And both will kill wild animals and the cats wont even eat them.


Are you really implying that a cat is more of a threat to wild animals than a coyote? And even a stray dog is more of a threat than a pack of coyotes? I have not seen anyone on this thread implying that coyotes are a threat to a healthy deer, except for fawns. Fawns are extremely defenseless in their early days and it would not take much of an animal to be able to kill them. And with multiple coyotes on an attack the mother would be fighting a losing battle in defense. You can pass on shots on coyotes. That is your view but I am with the large majority in my view of removing coyotes whenever possible.


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## bkr43050

viper1 said:


> One thing people tend to not consider is deer don't stay in a small area.The large buck I was hunting here one year got shot 6 miles from my house. They tend to travel real big circles of over twenty miles some times. He would hit my property every 5-6 days. Does tend to run a smaller area but still can be over 10 miles. So deer hit on the road,poached or killed 10 miles away can very well affect your hunting. I know here I lost 6 deer in the summer to high way. And since deer season there has been five more killed on highway. Now thats with in 1/2 mile. And you can bet that was from then ones I see. That also dont take into consider the other 8-9 mile around me or more. So its easy to see why an area can go up and down with out the population being low else where.


I do realize that deer to not stay confined to my property but I think their travel would be more in the neighborhood of less than a mile and not 8-10 miles (at least around my place). Bucks will tend to travel farther during the rut when cruising but even then that would mean that some of the deer that were outside of my area as a home range would end up passing through my property. If they all traveled away from my property their would seem to have to be a good reason for it. (lack of food source, pressure, lack of water, etc.) Really nothing has changed as far as these other factors for the most part over the years. There is plenty of cover in the area and browse food source. My area does not have much mast crop but the woods bordering on two areas do have mast crops. Again that part has not changed over the years. Bottom line is we went from seeing 15-20 deer a day to maybe 3-5 if we are lucky. I know some areas not too far away are faring better so as a whole within our county the numbers still look good.

Along with the coyotes killing the fawns I also wonder how much their presence in an area will cause deer to move out of the area. I have been wondering about that one for a while now. Perhaps they choose to avoid areas where a coyote pack inhabits.


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## AEFISHING

Along with the coyotes killing the fawns I also wonder how much their presence in an area will cause deer to move out of the area. I have been wondering about that one for a while now. Perhaps they choose to avoid areas where a coyote pack inhabits.[/QUOTE]

I don't think deer move out of an area because of coyotes. I know a place where the deer are thick and the coyote's are also thick. I do think coyotes travel a lot this time of year. They seemed to live in the corn fields before the crops came off. I just wish I knew of a way to kill them. They won't let me trap where I hunt and I have never called in a yote before.


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## Captain Kevin

bkr43050 said:


> Are you really implying that a cat is more of a threat to wild animals than a coyote? And even a stray dog is more of a threat than a pack of coyotes? I have not seen anyone on this thread implying that coyotes are a threat to a healthy deer, except for fawns. Fawns are extremely defenseless in their early days and it would not take much of an animal to be able to kill them. And with multiple coyotes on an attack the mother would be fighting a losing battle in defense. You can pass on shots on coyotes. That is your view but I am with the large majority in my view of removing coyotes whenever possible.


Cats kill more game animals than yotes. Rabbits, pheasants, squirrels. Over 90% of a yotes diet is field mice, and ground roosting birds.


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## T-180

Anyone that thinks that coyotes do not have a significant impact on fawn recruitment is simply uneducated on the subject. There are many studies on the effect & every single one has come to the same conclusion. Please do some research and it will open your eyes. The fact that it was suggested that a free roaming cat or dog is more destructive than a yote, shows little knowledge or respect for the predator the coyotes are. We have shot or trapped many yotes over several years & the effect on the wildlife populations is very noticeable. They are built like a greyhound with fur and equipped with pit bull jaws. They are extremely fast & have endurance to boot. I too don't like the cats in the woods, but they aren't in the same league.


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## Captain Kevin

AEFISHING said:


> Along with the coyotes killing the fawns I also wonder how much their presence in an area will cause deer to move out of the area. I have been wondering about that one for a while now. Perhaps they choose to avoid areas where a coyote pack inhabits.


I don't think deer move out of an area because of coyotes. I know a place where the deer are thick and the coyote's are also thick. I do think coyotes travel a lot this time of year. They seemed to live in the corn fields before the crops came off. I just wish I knew of a way to kill them. They won't let me trap where I hunt and I have never called in a yote before.[/QUOTE]

I also have 2 private ground honey holes that are rich with deer. When I shoot a deer, and field dress it, the gut pile is ALWAYS gone the next morning, so the yote population there. I also have listened to yotes howling at a gut pile I left 2 hrs. after I left it, while sitting at a campfire. They do coexist, and in my area with minimum fawn depletion. In Sept. big mature does always have 2 fawns with them, and the younger does always have 1 or 2 toting along behind them. That being said, the yotes in my area, aren't any different than the ones in the next township. In all seriousness, if your seeing a loss of deer in your area, I suggest you do some night time driving. Your going to see any nocturnal movement, or you may find that your problem is in the form of a truck, rifle, and spotlight. I shot a doe Thanksgiving morning, and when I went to put my temp tag in her ear I found a bullet hole in both ears. Somebody tried to poach her, or a farmer tried to "thin the herd". I'm leaning toward the first. Times are tough right now for some, and poaching is feeding the babies at home for some. Face it, if the times get rougher, you'll see a definate decrease in the deer herd when more folks get hungry when benefits run out, and people get hunger pains. Sad but true.


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## bkr43050

Captain Kevin said:


> Cats kill more game animals than yotes. Rabbits, pheasants, squirrels. Over 90% of a yotes diet is field mice, and ground roosting birds.


I won't argue that cats kill plenty of game animals but I don't know that I would agree with the statement that coyotes eat very little wild game. I just did a Google search and read at least half a dozen resources to see what their diet lists. Rabbits were listed in all of them along with squirrels, small birds, voles,etc. And the majority of the resources listed deer as well, mostly listed as young or fawns.


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## viper1

bkr43050 said:


> Are you really implying that a cat is more of a threat to wild animals than a coyote? And even a stray dog is more of a threat than a pack of coyotes? I have not seen anyone on this thread implying that coyotes are a threat to a healthy deer, except for fawns. Fawns are extremely defenseless in their early days and it would not take much of an animal to be able to kill them. And with multiple coyotes on an attack the mother would be fighting a losing battle in defense. You can pass on shots on coyotes. That is your view but I am with the large majority in my view of removing coyotes whenever possible.


Well not to deer. But stray cats hurt the rabbit,quail, pheasant, squirrel and other small game just as bad. Stray dogs the same,except stray dogs tend to hunt in packs and are well know for killing deer of any size. 
I have heard people say coyotes hunt in packs. But in fifty years have never seen more then two together and their usually mates. 
Deer fawn are a strange thing. As they have no scent what so ever when born. And when they get old enough to have it they are completely able to run with the mother. So hard for a coyote to find a fawn because mothers tend to hide them and stay away mostly until they can keep up.
So really Coyotes kill very little deer. Do they kill some they sure do along with any thing weak out there. Not as much as the so called pets running loose though.I have shot a lot of dogs running deer and will continue. Also shoot cats running wild . And yes if I ever see a pack or a single coyote chasing deer I'll shoot it. But never have and doubt I will.
But I never killed coyotes for fun, or even grows. Hunting either will never cut the population any how. And like I said I find no enjoyment killing something for no reason. God put each creature here for a purpose and they all do something to help. Coyotes are like the hawks, owls,crows and such! Their mostly scavengers and opportunists. And keep the areas from rotting carcasses.
you said it was my opinion and your right. But I am 60 years old. I developed my opinion from staying in the field almost every day of my adult life. And from personal sightings. Not by reading books, or the internet or reports which are out to support both sides. So yes you probably wont change my opinion. But why change me. The law is on your side and permits you to track and kill these animals. And if you want I wont try to stop you. I have a lot of relatives who gave their life and a few real close to me to give you your rights. Along with my right to say some are completely on the wrong track. I know a lot of people I'd say deserves it more then Wiley Coyote. LOL!


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## viper1

Captain Kevin said:


> I don't think deer move out of an area because of coyotes. I know a place where the deer are thick and the coyote's are also thick. I do think coyotes travel a lot this time of year. They seemed to live in the corn fields before the crops came off. I just wish I knew of a way to kill them. They won't let me trap where I hunt and I have never called in a yote before.


I also have 2 private ground honey holes that are rich with deer. When I shoot a deer, and field dress it, the gut pile is ALWAYS gone the next morning, so the yote population there. I also have listened to yotes howling at a gut pile I left 2 hrs. after I left it, while sitting at a campfire. They do coexist, and in my area with minimum fawn depletion. In Sept. big mature does always have 2 fawns with them, and the younger does always have 1 or 2 toting along behind them. That being said, the yotes in my area, aren't any different than the ones in the next township. In all seriousness, if your seeing a loss of deer in your area, I suggest you do some night time driving. Your going to see any nocturnal movement, or you may find that your problem is in the form of a truck, rifle, and spotlight. I shot a doe Thanksgiving morning, and when I went to put my temp tag in her ear I found a bullet hole in both ears. Somebody tried to poach her, or a farmer tried to "thin the herd". I'm leaning toward the first. Times are tough right now for some, and poaching is feeding the babies at home for some. Face it, if the times get rougher, you'll see a definate decrease in the deer herd when more folks get hungry when benefits run out, and people get hunger pains. Sad but true.[/QUOTE]

Same here. And the last three or four deer I found killed had small caliper holes in the head. Probably 22. Mostly used by poachers at night. And two must of been huge bucks because they cut off the head and left the meat. Now that's worse then any coyote.


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## Captain Kevin

T-180 said:


> Anyone that thinks that coyotes do not have a significant impact on fawn recruitment is simply uneducated on the subject. There are many studies on the effect & every single one has come to the same conclusion. Please do some research and it will open your eyes. The fact that it was suggested that a free roaming cat or dog is more destructive than a yote, shows little knowledge or respect for the predator the coyotes are. We have shot or trapped many yotes over several years & the effect on the wildlife populations is very noticeable. They are built like a greyhound with fur and equipped with pit bull jaws. They are extremely fast & have endurance to boot. I too don't like the cats in the woods, but they aren't in the same league.


I think I'm qualified to comment on the damage that Cats do vs. yotes. I trapped them for likely more years than some of you have been alive. The ONLY predator to thin the cat herd is a yote. In fact, ground up housecat was my "go to" bait for yotes. Cats will kill MORE game animals I.E, rabbits, squirrels, birds. Than a yote will. The reason being, that yotes are an open range animal for the most part. They hunt grass lands, and grain fields in search of mice, and similar rodents. That's what they eat 90% of the time. Cats do both, hunt in cover, and the open as well. A cat is actually a better hunter on game animals, than a yotes is due to their size, shape, and tactics.


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## viper1

Captain Kevin said:


> I think I'm qualified to comment on the damage that Cats do vs. yotes. I trapped them for likely more years than some of you have been alive. The ONLY predator to thin the cat herd is a yote. In fact, ground up housecat was my "go to" bait for yotes. Cats will kill MORE game animals I.E, rabbits, squirrels, birds. Than a yote will. The reason being, that yotes are an open range animal for the most part. They hunt grass lands, and grain fields in search of mice, and similar rodents. That's what they eat 90% of the time. Cats do both, hunt in cover, and the open as well. A cat is actually a better hunter on game animals, than a yotes is due to their size, shape, and tactics.


I think your totally right! I too have been a trapper a hunter all my life since I was about 9 years old. and the biggest threats to our wildlife are cats and dogs. Just love it when people quote reports. Shows their young intelligence.Look hard enough you'll find a report that say a white man is black or that big foots been discovered or the aliens are landing. LOL! Funny how people always want to swear their beloved pet that they let run to get killed wouldn't hurt any one. Twice ive had to shoot domestic dogs to get me out of a tree. And when you shoot one the others kill and eat it. The reason you cant call coyotes much is they dont search out large animals very often. Even a rabbit is too big to be preferred food. A field mouse now thats different.


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## Lewis

I am 56 years old and have been an avid hunter for 46 years.I have witnessed coyotes chasing adult deer more times than I could count.
I have also witnessed packs of a dozen or more at other locations.

Forget the USDA...here is my study.
I live in the middle of several hundred acres.My driveway is a mile long.I am very much in tune with the local deer population as well as the coyotes. For several years now I have been nearly handfeeding a group of deer every evening.I can walk within 10 feet of these deer. I call them out of the woods by shaking a coffee can full of feed and they come running.

One old doe, the matriarch I call Penny. Another big doe I call Red and yet another I call Zelda. I have witnessed several years of their fawn births.
As twin fawns were born to each doe they joined their mothers each summer evening while they fed.
I have watched several generations of these deer daily.

Several years ago the coyotes showed up and we witnessed their nightly howling.
Fawns of these deer that were one day bouncing, running, eating and perfectly healthy in my back yard were gone the next.
6 fawns,5 fawns 4, 3, 2 etc.

We found several freshly ravaged fawn carcasses that summer with fresh coyote tracks all around.

Me and the neighbors declared war on the coyotes,killing several.
We no longer hear the near nightly howling. Coyote sightings are way down and each of these does are walking around with their twins.


That is my study. It might not be scientific,but it comes from plenty of woods and deer knowledge and it comes from what I have witnessed daily over several years.
No one will ever convince me that coyote predation is not a major problem on young deer.


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## viper1

Well Lewis like I said opinions are like you know what! and every one has one. And i have mine you have yours. And neither has to respect either. So don't see the point of this thread! As it won't make any one who has a legit one change their minds. And the others will have to learn as they go.


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## Lewis

Viper...I'd agree with you,but then we would both be wrong.


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## leupy

Viper stick to the cooking section where you do know what you are talking about.


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## viper1

Lewis said:


> Viper...I'd agree with you,but then we would both be wrong.


Well can't agree with that but again only my opinion.At my age I am learning to pick my battles! LOL! As this Coyote thing you and others see as an important issue and may very well be in your area. Its not important to me because its not happening around here. I was just contributing and really didnt want to argue. Seems like so many of our threads get closed really simple anymore because one guy makes a statement the wrong way. I like discussions with info. But i dont fight for fun. I fight to hurt bad! Dont need to fight as often that way. 
Coyotes serve their purpose as well as any other creature. And I still believe and have seen more damage to wild life from domesticated animals. The worse being cats and second dogs, with man being in at least 3d place constantly. 
And I remember the big drive out west to ban Cougar hunting,poor things. And then the Constant complaining of too many and people being attacked. I guess my relation with the out doors and ODNR and the sporting clubs have taught me to be thankful for them all. And how people can jump to a conclusion too quick. Hunting Coyotes may be a good thing, but for the simple reason they have no enemies other then Man. Same with deer. The people asking for larger herds have no idea of the problems. Not only the damage they do. But the fact mother nature will kill them off too. With out the right amount of food they starve, get sick and die from many different illnesses and plagues. and i have seen this happen. proper manged numbers are important for a health deer heard. And scavengers and natural enemies play a role in it. Just like any animal species the weak have to die to maintain the rest. Maybe that's why people are getting to be how they are today. As these day most all babies survive. Its a cruel way to think,I know but it is very true. Again just my thoughts.


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## viper1

Oh and I don't think for me or you to be wrong means the other is right. Just different opinion's and circumstances!


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## bobk

Well Viper I am only 50, but if I reach 60 I sure hope I am as smart as you think you are.


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## T-180

Captain Kevin,
We're really not in disagreement as I too understand the damage inflicted by free roaming cats and have been a huge spokesman for controlling cat numbers and encouraging responsible pet ownership. I was just saying that they are not the alpha predator since the yotes do a fantastic job of thinning them and was relating more to the original subjuect about the damage they do to the fawn recruitment. I too have been trapping them for longer than many on this site have been alive & the ground up cat is always a go to bait.
The cats kill way more ground nesting & feeding birds than anything around and are especially hard on the baby bunnies thus, the reason cats don't roam our property much. The cats killing the baby rabbits is similar to the yotes killing the fawns. Just way too many does running around our area that lost their fawns the last couple years. The coyote trapping starts as soon as my youngest son gets home for Christmas break.


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## Lewis

viper1 said:


> Oh and I don't think for me or you to be wrong means the other is right. Just different opinion's and circumstances!


I agree...no fight here. Just a difference of opinion.


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## viper1

bobk said:


> Well Viper I am only 50, but if I reach 60 I sure hope I am as smart as you think you are.


If you make it I hope your as smart as your mouth any way. Never said i new every thing just have experienced a lot. Also a lot of childishness like your comment. LOL! Grow up!


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## Misdirection

Ahh, the holiday season is here and I see everyone is getting along like family over for Christmas dinner...

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## bobk

viper1 said:


> If you make it I hope your as smart as your mouth any way. Never said i new every thing just have experienced a lot. Also a lot of childishness like your comment. LOL! Grow up!


Geeze, it was a compliment. I thought you were smarter than that.


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## crappiedude

Misdirection said:


> Ahh, the holiday season is here and I see everyone is getting along like family over for Christmas dinner...
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


LOL...it ought to get really good about mid February once cabin fever really sets in.


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## buckeyebowman

viper1 said:


> Still say the same. we watch the deer around here all summer. my wife loves it too! I have yet to see a fawn die around here. Fact is the other night I seen two on the trail cam that's new. And I mean new born. Strange time to see that but they are here, We had 6 fawns all summer and watched them grow. That's another reason I don't kill many here. LOL! I only kill to eat,protect or defend. And don't kill much of any thing I cant eat. If you want to kill Coyotes that's up to you but it has nothing to do with deer. Now if they were wolfs you may have a point. But I have been in the woods for over 49 years and never have seen a healthy deer killed by a coyote. Now stray dogs are a different story.
> A dog or cat in the woods with out a collar is a target for me.
> People who love there pets keep collars on them and keep them home. And both will kill wild animals and the cats wont even eat them.


Same here! I have less tolerance for stray or feral dogs than I do coyotes! I've been hunting for 40+ years and have seen dogs running deer far too many times, while I have *never* seen a deer being run by coyotes. Not saying that it hasn't happened, but, from my experience and observations, it doesn't happen nearly as much as deer being run by dogs. And I think some deer kills perpetrated by dogs are being attributed to 'yotes. 

Case in point. I was out scouting a place I have to hunt just before the archery season opened. I was walking up an ATV trail through a field and just having a look around when I noticed that a Blue Jay, perched in a sapling, was just screaming his head off! I wondered what was causing the Jay to scream like that when I got my answer. Around a bend in the trail came a huge, and I mean a HUHYOOOGE, buck! We saw each other at the same time, and he just dodged around me and kept on running! If I'd have leaned to the right and stuck out my right arm I could have touched him! I felt the wind as he went by me! Then I started wondering what was causing him to run like that, and I got a quick answer to that question as well, because down the trail here comes a dog with a collar on it! Man, I started cussing a blue streak at that dog, and then took off running straight at him! I scared him off, which I'm glad for now as the dog looked like a German Shepherd mix, pretty good size and could probably have chewed me to splinters if it had come to that! I'd have tried to strangle the damn thing if I'd gotten my hands on him! 

For what it's worth, a long time ago a local Game Protector told me, strictly off the record, that if I saw a dog, or dogs, running deer and I had a crack at the dog, to take them out! I know this isn't official ODNR policy, but I knew this guy pretty well, he knew I was an honest, law abiding hunter, and he relayed this on the "QT".


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## bad luck

I didn't believe the whole coyote thing til I saw it in person, and you folks who don't believe it now, won't either until you actually see it. 

It's not a matter of whether you see it in your area, but a matter of when. 

I hope you don't get to see it, but odds are you will. They DEFINITELY have an effect on the deer, and they, as well as the wild dogs, must be killed. They serve no purpose in the food chain anymore, buzzards do a pretty good job of clean up....


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## Lundy

Look you don't have to have ever seen a coyote chase a deer or catch a fawn to know that it happens. 

Have you ever watched the deer and how they react to the presence of a coyote? They know all to well the threat that they pose. I have watched that interaction dozens and dozens of times. If they were not a threat the deer would pay as much attention to them as they do a turkey or a squirrel.

Don't make this harder than it needs to be.


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## floater99

I dont know if its coyotes or what ??.I do know the deer pop is DEFINITELY down where we hunt(morgan cty).Our camp only killed 2 deer this sesaon,8 guys who hunt pretty hard every day all week incl drives mid week ???.I never saw a deer in the woods to shoot at all week.I use to wait till wend to shoot a doe hoping for a buck,and passing on does.  Too many 6 deer seasons ??.


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## Star1pup

I hunt private land in Columbiana County and have seen very few deer the last couple of years.

Up until 3 years ago I hunted in PA, up around Kane. Before the opend doe season up with buck I used to see deer all the time. After they killed most of the doe I saw no deer for 3 years. I no longer hunt PA so they lost my $101.

I don't expect to get a deer every year, but when I don't even see a deer I start wondering why I go out on a cold morning.


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## t.stuller

I previously stated that I have seen good deer numbers this year, but I should add that I trap most the farms around me and my dad traps a good size area south of me. I have personally never seen a pack of coyotes attack a full grown deer, but I seen a pic off my Uncles trail cam of a yote carrying a young fawn. There is not a doubt in my mind that if left unchecked coyotes will devastate the deer herd in Ohio.


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## viper1

Star1pup said:


> I hunt private land in Columbiana County and have seen very few deer the last couple of years.
> 
> Up until 3 years ago I hunted in PA, up around Kane. Before the opend doe season up with buck I used to see deer all the time. After they killed most of the doe I saw no deer for 3 years. I no longer hunt PA so they lost my $101.
> 
> I don't expect to get a deer every year, but when I don't even see a deer I start wondering why I go out on a cold morning.


Hunted Jefferson for a long time. and Columbiana, see you live real close. These days I live on the edge or about 1/2 mile out of Salem. We average 3-4 a year here in our back yard. Decreased heard well some what but plenty around if you scout pretty often. But I think the 6 or more deer limits are really hurting more then any thing else. When you figure it's mostly all Does. that costs you 1-3 fawns a year. Multiply that by 5/6 of the kill and that' s an awful lot. Man has always been the worst predator of deer. Wiped them out in Ohio once, and if not for ODNR transplanting and regulating we wouldn't be hunting them now. We could kill more here easily were allowed and their here. Just have more sense then to kill to fill a limit. We control our heard kind of too! Think every sportsman would. But we have lots of hunters who aren't sportsman. If their allowed 6 they want 8. And yes just my opinion
.


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## Misdirection

I hunted Ohio for about 15 years before moving to PA...back when you got a "deer tag" and it was good for buck or doe...and you watched Football on Sunday...I hunted Columbiana county, mostly Beaver Creek. Ohio's deer population was growing at that time...I moved to PA where we had a Buck tag and a two week Buck season and a three day doe season and alot of deer...

Now in PA they have concurrent buck and doe in many places with up to three doe tags and a buck tag...sounds like in Ohio you can take many more deer than before.

I will tell you that the deer herd in PA is decimated...it wasn't predation....it was the hunters...the best way to decimate a deer herd is to turn hunters loose on them...and then we deny the cause and complain that their aren't any deer...that's why at my place we have banded together with a few neighbors and have a good couple hundred acres that are no doe hunting! And last Thursday we had a nice herd of 25+ deer all yarded up come past. I plan to keep it that way...

The old saying...kill a doe and you just killed three deer for next year...

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## bkr43050

viper1 said:


> Man has always been the worst predator of deer.


Not always but I think you will not get much argument from anyone that man is indeed the primary threat to deer. The second biggest threat seems to be the where the differing opinions begin.


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## viper1

bkr43050 said:


> Not always but I think you will not get much argument from anyone that man is indeed the primary threat to deer. The second biggest threat seems to be the where the differing opinions begin.


Well not with me. i like discussing the issues just not use to people thinking theirs is the only that count. 
Misdirection. my Dads from Pa and he has 13 brothers and sisters mostly there. So I am well aware what you say is true. I dont even bother going any more. Well between our limit and the urban limits the number of deer some one can kill is plain stupid. With every one wanting to feel the tags with 1 buck and 6 or more doe. But they're playing right into the hands of groups like car insurance, Farmer associations and others who want the herds cut dramatically.
Were a lot like you do. We have three neighbors that also watch our number of deer close and more farther. We saw a small drop a few years ago and started pruning the herd easier. Our area is actually doing better. But their is plenty of good hunting in Ohio. Just cant find it if you sit in an office or truck or factory on your butt all the time then run to the woods in hunting season. Takes a lot of scouting. There is plenty of areas we go on public hunting areas with large quanity's of deer. But they have learned to go deeper where hunter are to lazy to walk. Or to go to zones that are safer for them. Of coarse this is my opioion and like some say i could be wrong so be it. But I came from a time when you worked hard for what you got and didnt get it handed to you so its easier for us. The ones who feel entitled and complain. Well think what you wish no skin off my nose. LOL!


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## nodog

Hunters didn't have to kill more doe's. I know around my place I stopped killing any simply because I don't see as many as I'd like.

Numbers are down and not just being maintained. IMO we are no where needing a reduction in numbers or even maintaining the numbers we had. Ohio can easily handle a million deer without too much trouble (smaller states do). When ODNR makes an effort to give hunters that opportunity I'll believe they are serious about making Ohio a great deer hunting state. Till then I think they are playing with hunters seeing how little opportunity hunters put up with before they stop spending. Again, hunters can stop killing all the doe's for their own good, the government doesn't have to always stop us from ourselves.

A question was asked else where about privatizing wildlife. It was like that once and we just about killed off all the deer. We could show that we've learned a little from our past.


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## crittergitter

Over the course of the next few months, there will be a lot of action around this. Hunters in Ohio are not going to sit by and allow the entire herd to be decimated in many areas of the state.


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## viper1

crittergitter said:


> Over the course of the next few months, there will be a lot of action around this. Hunters in Ohio are not going to sit by and allow the entire herd to be decimated in many areas of the state.


Hope you right but believe your wrong. People today like to talk and think about the problem. But the fact remains in any event, club or any thing. We have 10% or less who really do any thing about it. Attended district three meetings many times when a discussion was heated and active. Would hear all these people who was going to do something. When you get there, there isn't enough to empty the coffee pot! LOL!
The limit does need cut back. But with out a serious showing I think the farmers and the insurance company's will have their way. And they wont be happy till their all gone!


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## crittergitter

I am not talking about a survey response, an email, a letter or an "open house" meeting. All of those things are in the control of the Division of Wildlife. I am talking about real action. I am talking about something that is organized by hunters for hunters. There are 600,000 hunters in this state and it's a 1 billion dollar industry. It is time we were heard.


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## viper1

crittergitter said:


> I am not talking about a survey response, an email, a letter or an "open house" meeting. All of those things are in the control of the Division of Wildlife. I am talking about real action. I am talking about something that is organized by hunters for hunters. There are 600,000 hunters in this state and it's a 1 billion dollar industry. It is time we were heard.


I hear you. And I dont care if its a million. I doubt you get 10 %


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## buckeyebowman

viper1 said:


> Hope you right but believe your wrong. People today like to talk and think about the problem. But the fact remains in any event, club or any thing. We have 10% or less who really do any thing about it. Attended district three meetings many times when a discussion was heated and active. Would hear all these people who was going to do something. When you get there, there isn't enough to empty the coffee pot! LOL!
> The limit does need cut back. But with out a serious showing I think the farmers and the insurance company's will have their way. And they wont be happy till their all gone!


I agree. But I also believe that there's something we could do no matter where the state sets the limit, and you and nodog referenced it in prior posts. And that is, you just don't have to kill a "limit" of deer. But there are too many greedy people out there who, if the limit is 6, then, by God, that's how many they'll try to take. It strikes me as funny that a lot of folks like to point at Wall Street traders and bankers as greedy, but when it comes to killing deer, they're just as greedy as anybody! If it's brown, it's down! 

And it's not like they need the venison for food. If they really did then outfits like Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry and Sportsmen Against Hunger would not exist. They're taking deer out of the herd and just giving them away! Don't get me wrong, I'm not against kindness to those less fortunate. But why not just go to the store, buy a couple of roasts or frozen turkeys and donate them to the local rescue mission? 

My friend and I hunt a 90 acre farm in an area where there are still plenty of deer. It's also just inside the border of an urban zone, so we could kill 6 doe legally. We wouldn't even think about it. For me, an ideal season goes something like this. Early on in bow season I take a nice, fat, mature doe and put the venison in the freezer. However, if that doe has fawns with even a hint of spots still on them, they walk! If I get a doe, then I can spend the time hunting for a nice buck. Maybe I get him, maybe I don't, but there are still plenty of doe around to act as bait when the rut comes in.


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## bkr43050

I own 56 acres and me and my 3 boys hunt on it. This year we took 2 does. The same last year. I think the year before was 3 and the year before that only 2. So believe me we are not raping the herd by any stretch.


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## viper1

At one time i filled my limit every year. I was feeding me my wife and 5 kids. not these days. Cant hunt much because of illness. When I do I take one or two if I can. Just me and the wife now. Plus we try to maintain the deer. Seems there really 2 class of deer. You have the ones who stay in a certain area, usually does. Then you have the run overs.By run overs I mean the does that are born and move on till they find their own areas. Id you kill to many then you really on the run overs to fill vacancy's. Those areas they don't seem really bad. We had a place with over 100 acres. 3 groups of guys were hunting. Every thing started getting smaller as the regulars got killed off. The ones who moved in were the yearlings and such. Well in a few years it was all there was. I know that's a small area. But deer woods are getting smaller and is made up of these little areas getting all put together. Just trickling down.And no one to blame but the hunters themselves. That's the main reason I laugh over people crying about the coyote. Mother nature is never as bad as the intelligent animals.


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## bkr43050

I never implied that mother nature (i.e. coyotes) was as "bad" as the "intelligent animals" (I am hoping that I fit in the latter category). Obviously humans will continue to be the largest predator to the deer population. But with the harvest totals decreasing and the deer sightings decreasing it easily leads some of us to believe that there is something else killing deer beyond the rate that happened in the past. Sure, maybe coyotes only kill 8-10 in my area (hypothetical number) but those are 8-10 that would have been there for us to consume.

And about this "run-over" theory. Just how are you able to identify local deer versus visitors.


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## viper1

bkr43050 said:


> I never implied that mother nature (i.e. coyotes) was as "bad" as the "intelligent animals" (I am hoping that I fit in the latter category).
> 
> Well I never meant to imply you fit in that either. Just pointing it out.
> 
> Obviously humans will continue to be the largest predator to the deer population. But with the harvest totals decreasing and the deer sightings decreasing it easily leads some of us to believe that there is something else killing deer beyond the rate that happened in the past.
> 
> I can see where people would like to think so. But the truth is the reason is that as the herds increased and traveled more Cars,trucks, trains and others killed a lot more too! Also society has increased building and decreased places for them to live. Pollution has probably had an effect to. Do I deny Nature kills them off to? No way. But Coyotes are probably a small number. When you figure in the dogs people let run, the wild dogs that live in the woods today because of pet dumping and probably disease and illness. But are they a true problem ? My answer is always no. Just figures into the over all picture.
> 
> Sure, maybe coyotes only kill 8-10 in my area (hypothetical number) but those are 8-10 that would have been there for us to consume.
> 
> Seriously doubt Coyote's take that many in any given are.
> 
> And about this "run-over" theory. Just how are you able to identify local deer versus visitors.


Well the run off isnt a theory. It just happens. First any young bucks the does run off pretty quickly. Normally a single deer will most likely be a buck. Yes sometimes you can tell the regular deer by size ,looks or actions. But no way to always be sure. The one thing i can tell you is I notice the biggest does stay and they run the smaller ones off. Just like the bucks do. I have always spent a lot of time in the woods. I was lucky for that oppertunity. And since getting ill.. I have watched deer continually at my place. Me and the wife and some times a couple grand kids or friends will set at the top of my hill where I have a fire pit. We can see out back and watch a lot. My wife wouldn't kill any thing but loves to watch the animals and the deer are her favorite. A lot of times when there is nothing going on she'll go out back and just set in the Motor home and watch them. So we do get to know some. I call them the breeders and usually wont shoot one.
Well to be honest as much as I love the meat. These days I must be getting soft. I would sooner watch the animals then kill them. People some times not so much! LOL!


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## crappiewacka

billk said:


> Belmont county - Egypt Valley.
> 
> I didn't even see a complete deer opening day, saw three Tuesday AM.
> 
> Numbers down - absolutely.
> 
> With this new online checkin procedure, I'd like to see a breakdown of public vs private land harvest numbers.


I seen 21 deer first day of gun, running to different patches, mainly to the Eagle Rock Outfitters property's. A few strays after that.
During the 2 day gun we saw nothing other than surveyors and the Oxford mining company outfits.
Now is it a coincidence that the low numbers in Eygpt Valley are a result of the fracking and planned pipeline that is going to run through that region?
We traveled back in some fairly remote areas only to see white and blue ribbons in branches and blue stakes driven in the ground....
The Best Value Inn was loaded up w/white pick up trucks (I think Global Communications) that were traveling the roads inside of Egpyt and the Piedmont Lake watershed roads. Especially made a huge footprint between gun and extended gun.
The Amish were even having difficulties. OMG!


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## viper1

Well been hearing all these rumors on the internet about the Zombies and the martians, have been finding out how good of sausage they make, Seen something hovering over the pine trees out back, then a flash of light and many brown legs go into it. Just saying. No gong to put my foil hat on and set back in the corner with my assault rifle and 100 clips.


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## buckeyebowman

viper1 said:


> Well the run off isnt a theory. It just happens. First any young bucks the does run off pretty quickly. Normally a single deer will most likely be a buck. Yes sometimes you can tell the regular deer by size ,looks or actions. But no way to always be sure. The one thing i can tell you is I notice the biggest does stay and they run the smaller ones off.
> Just like the bucks do. I have always spent a lot of time in the woods. I was lucky for that oppertunity. And since getting ill.. I have watched deer continually at my place. Me and the wife and some times a couple grand kids or friends will set at the top of my hill where I have a fire pit. We can see out back and watch a lot. My wife wouldn't kill any thing but loves to watch the animals and the deer are her favorite. A lot of times when there is nothing going on she'll go out back and just set in the Motor home and watch them. So we do get to know some. I call them the breeders and usually wont shoot one.
> Well to be honest as much as I love the meat. These days I must be getting soft. I would sooner watch the animals then kill them. People some times not so much! LOL!


Oh yeah. No doubt you can learn to recognize some deer on sight if you see them enough. There are two doe on the property we hunt that we have named. The first is "Greasyback". She has a wide black stripe on top of her muzzle, which gets wider on top of her head, wider still down the back of her neck, and real wide down her back. The other is "Old Snort". We've all seen how doe react when they "bust" you. Well, Old Snort takes it to an extreme! She's like the bad "ham" actor in the local community theater. You'd swear there's not a deer in the township that doesn't know something's up by the time Old Snort is done with you! 

And there are three bucks. Little Six, Buster (for his busted up rack), and Big Mamoo, a huge ten point that's a sneaky as a cat burglar. 

You made an interesting point in how doe will boot their yearlings away when it's time for them to breed. That's a behavior that we never witnessed this year. I've seen a lot of posts, here and elsewhere, about the "weird" rut we were having this year. Seemed weird to us that every time we saw these doe they had their young'uns with them.


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## Bowhunter57

I thought the deer were scarce last year and I was right. This year I've been hard pressed to see a deer, let alone get a shot at one.

Originally, I was blaming the coyote population, but now I'm not so sure.

Bowhunter57


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## rattletraprex

Bluewalleye said:


> I am with you totally. I am from Michigan where you could gun hunt for an entire week and never see another hunter in the woods. Cause there is so much state land to hunt. But here in Ohio (29 years now), gun hunters are nuts. They shoot at anything that moves. I have had bullets whistling over my head way to many times. I just completely gave up hunting during the gun season. Even on the private land that I have permission to hunt. All of the locals believe that sense they had permission 20 years ago, they are allowed to still drive all of that land.... INSANE
> 
> I do muzzle load hunt though. Cause the idiots only have 1 shot to try and kill you....


There's people out there that can reload really really fast,like 3 times in 2 seconds!


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## bobk

rattletraprex said:


> There's people out there that can reload really really fast,like 3 times in 2 seconds!


Oh yes the auto-loading muzzleloader. I have not seen these works of art yet. I do however hear them every year while hunting.


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## Misdirection

My auto loading muzzle loader fires about once every three to five minutes!

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## Snakecharmer

Bowhunter57 said:


> I thought the deer were scarce last year and I was right. This year I've been hard pressed to see a deer, let alone get a shot at one.
> 
> Originally, I was blaming the coyote population, but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> Bowhunter57


Saw 5 run through my back yard this morning...


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## buckeyebowman

rattletraprex said:


> There's people out there that can reload really really fast,like 3 times in 2 seconds!





bobk said:


> Oh yes the auto-loading muzzleloader. I have not seen these works of art yet. I do however hear them every year while hunting.


As well as those fancy shotguns that, in the regular firearms season, can make 3 shells sound just like 5! Amazing!


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