# Feathers or veins



## MAINAH (Apr 14, 2004)

Just a question as to what you all use and or prefer? Feathers or veins. I was looking on the Horton websit and they sell the carbon strike with both, the feathers being slightly more expensive. Are there any advantages/disadvantages with both? I have only used veins, mainly because thats whats on the shelf at the store. Just curious.


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## Smallie Gene (Jun 2, 2005)

Feathers are prettier but they can get ruffled pretty easy if you shoot them too far through a target. Also, there is a little concern that feathers soak up rain and snow a little possibly compromising accuracy where as the elements tend to rolls off of the verins. Veins are easier to replace/repair, they are cheaper and you can see blood on veins better than feathers. I've shot both, don't see any big disadvantages to feathers but veins are a little more practical for me.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

As a rule, feathers are more forgiving, therefore, usually more accurate. It's quite easy to waterproof feathers, but it's an extra thing that needs done. Most vanes are cheaper than feathers, and that's what most people use. Feathers get ruffled up, but vanes get warped. It's the same process to replace feathers as it is vanes, no difference at all. I also don't understand how vanes show blood better than feathers.  Honestly, I'd say it's the opposite, as the feathers will soak up some blood. Both have good and bad points. To me, the good points to feathers FAR outway vanes and I'll not use vanes. But, that's just my preference. Overall, it's not a big deal. Both will work fine for hunting.


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

chevy vs ford issue in my book


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

> chevy vs ford issue in my book


Not really, there truely are differences. It's just whatever works best for that person.


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

littleking said:


> chevy vs ford issue in my book


^ hence i said in my book, which means my opinion.


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## Header (Apr 14, 2004)

I've shot feathers for years during league and the woods. This year I'm going with the veins got tired of the water soaked feathers and being ruffled in the woods, besides the point of cleaning off all that blood after passing through the deer and replacing them also.


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## DrZ (Apr 28, 2004)

Magis is right about feathers being more forgiving. I like feathers a lot. 

If there is a clearance problem with your bow, cable or rest, feathers fold out of the way.....vanes will cause bad flight.

They stabilize faster for two reasons. 1)Because they cause more drag from the textured surface. 2)Feathers spin an arrow faster than a vane because they have a stiff side and a supple side. Take an arrow with feathers on it and push against the feather from one direction and it will fold down, from the other direction it will remain rigid. This feature combined with a helical fletch helps cause a pocket of low pressure under the feather. This makes it spin faster. Spinning an arrow is very important when shooting fixed blade broadheads accuratly.

Feathers are much lighter than vanes. They are usually faster than vanes for the first 35-40 yards.

Feathers are pretty cool. Its amazing to me that in a lot of ways the first fletching used by man is still the best. It's hard for me to think that God didn't have archery in mind when he created turkeys. 

Down side of feathers: cost, duribility, can wilt in rain, they are noisy in flight, and they cause a "parachute" effect when shooting long distances (past 45 yards).

All this being said, I doubt the clearance factor would matter much when shooting them out of a cross bow.


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## TopGun (Jun 29, 2005)

I like the detailed explination Dr Z on the mechanics of flight that the fletchings provide.  As far as the crossbow and plastic or feathers, i would be more concerned with the aluminum, or carbon arrows as far as weight, the carbon arrows are the way to go, the veins will not really affect your arrow as much as they do on a compound. Crossbows develope alot more kinetic energy that compounds althought the speed is the same. a compound bow relies upon a good combination of flex in the arrow, and fletchings that will provide the correct amount of rotation and minimized resistance such as a whisker biscuit or open rests, whereas a crossbow generally justs bulls its way, yes they are accurate and powerful but as far as the mechanics go, you may want to go with plastic for the durability, you will undoubtedly be shooting it into a target quite a few times you want arrows that will hold up. Not as technical as Drz, just an opinion of mine though.


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## Smallie Gene (Jun 2, 2005)

Bottom line is that feathers soak in precipitation and get tore up easier. Their only advantage is that they look cooler and help you feel more in touch with your primitive self although your bow (in most cases) is far from primitive.

Top Gun is right, your shaft (arrow shaft) is much more important that choosing between vanes or feathers but I very good question nonetheless.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

No offense TopGun, but you're WAY off on some things. First and foremost, this: 


> Crossbows develope alot more kinetic energy that compounds


It's actually just the opposite. Carbon vs. aluminum is again, just a personal choice. Neither is better than the other.
I also would have to disagree with Smallie Gene on this:


> Their only advantage is that they look cooler and help you feel more in touch with your primitive self


Read DrZs post again. He's does a good job of explaining some of the advantages of feathers.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

M.Magis beat me to it. I was about to mention the same thing on the kinetic energy.

I think DrZ did a great job of detailing the differences. I have used both feathers and vanes over the years but I still prefer feathers. They just seemed to be a bit more consistent for me when shooting and I don't find that they really wear out much faster than vanes. When practicing with both I have had times when my arrows blow through the target. Feathers eventually will tear up but vanes seem to start right away with the rippling and eventually tear as well. If you fletch your own arrows the cost is really not that much of a difference unless you are going through a lot of fletchings. As far as feathers being ruined after going through a deer well then I can put up with having to fletch a couple of arrows at the end of the season.

Also, if you spray the feathers before hunting in wet weather they will not hold any more water on them than a vane will.


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## Smallie Gene (Jun 2, 2005)

bkr43050 said:


> Also, if you spray the feathers before hunting in wet weather they will not hold any more water on them than a vane will.


Spray them with what bryan?


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Smallie Gene said:


> Spray them with what bryan?


 I use some stuff called Fletch Dry which I bought at my local archery shop. I am sure they all have a product but I am not sure which brand is more prevalent.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I had some spray in an aerosol can that I used before that but I can't even remember the name of it. It is basically like all other water repellent products.


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## Smallie Gene (Jun 2, 2005)

bkr43050 said:


> I had some spray in an aerosol can that I used before that but I can't even remember the name of it. It is basically like all other water repellent products.


I assume the spray is odorless?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

I've heard that spray for dry flies works too. I've not used it, but it makes sense. I have a powder I use. Looks and feels like very finely ground wax. The water just beads right off.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

The Fletch dry is odorless but the aerosol spray can had a slight odor when you applied it but dries in a hurry and becomes odorless once it dries. You don't have to apply very often. Depending on how much hunting you do in the rain you may get by with only applying once per season. You can tell when it begins to wear off because the feathers begin to compress easily when wet. When applied they bead the water and remain rigid.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Mike,

Is it the Fletch Dry brand that you use?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

To be honest, I don't remember. I've had the same batch for about 8-10 years. I've always just kept it in a Zip Lok baggie and pitched the original bag. I'll do some looking to see if I can figure out the name.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Brian, looking at the Fletch Dry, that could very well be what I have. I remember mine coming in a bag instead of the bottle, but they may have changed the packaging. The Fletch Dry appears to be exactly the same thing.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I have had mine for quite a while as well so I don't know how they are packaging it now. It does last a long time. It is good stuff.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I found a couple of good links supporting the use of feathers. There is some good technical information in here.

Feather vs. Vanes

*Feather Facts*


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## MAINAH (Apr 14, 2004)

Well BKR, thank you for the info. the main reason I asked this question is that when I bought my XBOW, I received 2 blots with vanes and 2 with feathers, all 4 on carbon shafts. I've never used feathers before and I thought I would weigh in all possibilities before I bought new ones. I think I will go with feathers. As far as H20 proofing them, would'nt the silicon spray I put on my hunting boots and leather jacket work???


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## DrZ (Apr 28, 2004)

Intresting article. Way pro feather though. Don't think that all that stuff is that absolute. I have no question that feathers are better for hunting and close range target shooting, however, I think 60 yards is pushing it. I could make a set up that would be faster with feathers at 60 yards, but it wouldn't be the best set up for shooting at 60 yards. 

Also reguardless of what you are shooting you should not have your fletching "slide across your rest". If you are shooting a bow that is well tuned your fletching should not be any where near your rest when your arrow passes throuh the site window. When I was talking about feathers being great for clearance problems, I wasn't talking about fletching sliding through the rest. Sometimes a vane lightly brushing across or ticking a rest prong, flipper, or cable can drive you nuts when trying to tune a bow. 

Its a good article about the advantages of feathers, I just dont want any of the sorta new guys to think its ok to have your fletching crash into your rest. It you find thats the case, you need to change more than your fletching. You need a different spined arrow.


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## DrZ (Apr 28, 2004)

I've use silicon spray with ok results. You wont have a problem unless you are caught in a down pour or all day rain.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

MAINAH said:


> Well BKR, thank you for the info. the main reason I asked this question is that when I bought my XBOW, I received 2 blots with vanes and 2 with feathers, all 4 on carbon shafts. I've never used feathers before and I thought I would weigh in all possibilities before I bought new ones. I think I will go with feathers. As far as H20 proofing them, would'nt the silicon spray I put on my hunting boots and leather jacket work???


 I would think it would work as well as the stuff I used years ago. I imagine they were almost the same thing.


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## ARGEE (Apr 5, 2004)

MAINAH said:


> Just a question as to what you all use and or prefer? Feathers or veins. I was looking on the Horton websit and they sell the carbon strike with both, the feathers being slightly more expensive. Are there any advantages/disadvantages with both? I have only used veins, mainly because thats whats on the shelf at the store. Just curious.


I WOULD NOT USE CARBON ARROWS FOR HUNTING..THEY DONT PENETRATE AS GOOD AS ALUMINUM


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Good grief. Where does this stuff come from? The difference between aluminum and carbon penatration in a hunting situation is nothing! There's thousands upon thousands of people out there that use them for hunting.


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## noboatdave (May 5, 2004)

ARGEE,
Wow? Do you really believe that? If so, what is it based on?


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## TopGun (Jun 29, 2005)

hmmmm so is it that crossbows do not? or do develope more kinetic energy than compounds? maybe i am confused indeed lol And as far as the aluminum, they are better for penetration? you have my interest now. These are the things i would like to understand better.


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## TopGun (Jun 29, 2005)

i was just going by kinetic energy charts of both bows and the top of the line Bowtech Blacknight delivers approx. 95 foot pounds with a speed of 350 fps where as the lower low level Reflex Caribou is about 55 pounds and a spped of254 fps, both at 70# 30 draw and a 350 grain arrow ,whereas the Horten 200lb hunter max is about 112 pounds with a speed of 359 fps. Would the arrow weight be a consideration for the higher kinetic energy in a compound? or the immediate transfer of energy to the arrow on a crossbow, or a gradual transfer of energy on a compound?. Hell all i know is I shoot them both, i have dropped deer with both of them. And when my feathers tear off i buy new arrows. lol So lets do some huntin!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Kinetic energy is a result of two things, mass and velocity. Since most modern compounds will shoot close to the same speeds as most crossbows, and since a compound arrow is longer, therefore heavier, most modern compounds will produce more kinetic energy then most crossbows. The crossbow is a very inefficient machine. They take 150-200 lbs of draw weight to produce the same speeds that many 70 lb compounds will shoot. They're very effective, just very inefficient. Regarding penatration ,neither is better than the other. Only a few things effect penatration in a hunting situation; broadhead style (not brand), kinectic energy, shot placement, and a few other minor things. The type of arrow will not effect it, all things being equal.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Regarding the KE numbers in your post. The only one actually correct is the Bowtech at 95 ft/lbs. The Reflex would be 50 ft/lbs and the crossbow would be 100 ft/lbs, with the same arrow weight. This is all ASSUMING these arrow speeds are accurate, which they aren't in a hunting setup. Manufacturers like to "tweek" the rated speeds on their bows. 350 grains is just too light of an arrow to be hunting with for a 70 lb bow, at 4.7 grains/pound. 6 grains/pound is recommended and most manufacturers won't back up any bow that is shot with less.


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## ARGEE (Apr 5, 2004)

Carbon And Aluminum Can Be About The Same..theres A No. Of Factors That Can Make A Difference...speed,momentum,weight Of The Arrow,broadhead Or Field Point Are Just A Few Factors..theres A Formula That You Can Use To Determine Your Penetration..also Carbon Or Some Carbon Arrows Can Shatter There By Leaving Some Fibers In Your Deer Meat..they Push Carbon Arrows To Sell Cause They Are More Expensive...


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## "J" (Apr 10, 2004)

DRZ hit it right on the set up part of you equipment. Yes if your shooting feathers they will be more forgiving, but if your rig is tuned to the point of being right on then you can shoot either with no problems, but from what I see in alot of people's setups is they are not tuned and have no real idea on how to do it and rely on someone at a pro shop to do the job for them and thinking it is done right which is not the case most of the time. The true test is in the paper test and it will show what you bow is doing. If you take the time to paper test your bow it will tell what is wrong or right about your bow. http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/hunting_articles/tuning.htm Go to this link and it will explain and show details the common problems you will see. And Mangis man you know your stuff. That's what I like about this site exchanging KNOWLEDGE!!!! Argee do you have that formula for penetration I'd like to see that one. Thanks "J"


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

There's not a formula to determine penatration. It would have to involve the coefficient of friction for the target, and when shooting an animal, there's many things that could be hit, not just one material. Also, it would assume a perfect arrow flight, and more often than not the arrow has some flex in flight, which would reduce penatration in theory. In reality, once the broadhead pierces the skin of an animal, the only thing stopping it would be bone. If no bone is hit, any modern, or semi modern, bow will zip an arrow right through the vitals of a deer sized animal. The formula ARGEE is probably thinking of is for kinetic energy, arrow speed (in feet/second) x arrow speed x arrow weight (in grains) / 450240. ARGEE doesn't seem to understand the reason for carbon arrows. They do have some "advantages" for some shooters. Personally, I prefer aluminum, but it's just rediculous to think they only exist because they're more expensive.  I'm afraid we've really made the initial question more confusing than it needed to be  . But, there's no reason to make things worse by posting completely FALSE information based on ones lack of knowledge.


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## noboatdave (May 5, 2004)

For a detailed explanation on arrow penetration here is a report by Dr. Ed Ashby.
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/
Potential penetration is determined mainly by arrow speed, arrow weight and broadhead design. 

Todays carbon arrows do not splinter they will break cleanly in half. They are made with a different process than the old skinny ones that required outserts.

Carbon arrows are superior to aluminum in their toughness. They will take a lot more punishment than aluminum or wood. I spine shot a deer twice(second shot he was facing dead away and I just wanted another one in him) and the glue on adapters on both Snuffers broke when he rolled but the shafts did not break.


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## ARGEE (Apr 5, 2004)

M Magis,i Didnt Say They Exist Only Cause Their More Expensive...i Said They Like To Sell Em Cause Their More Expensive..they Make More Selling Them Cause They Cost More..gee...im Not Arguing With Anyone Say What You Want And Let It Be..


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## TopGun (Jun 29, 2005)

Argee, at this time i wish i had not said a thing about kinetic energy lol as you can see i backed out when it became a pissing contest about formulas and such lol. It may be best at this time to take our leave and excuse ourselves.  but in one final note, the arrow test is based on a 415 grain arrow and 125 broadhead tip, traveling at 332FPS shot out of a Ten Point qx-4 and my bow was my Hoyt Ultalite xt 2000 with an overdraw, shooting a 33" 365 gr arrow with a 125g broadhead tip at 313 fps chrono. and the crossbow just drilled the block at the same distance. so without going further into exact weights and measurements i would assume the x bow is producing more kinetic energy? or would that be incorrect?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Yes TopGun, your crossbow is producing more energy. Both are producing way more than enough for deer hunting.


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## TopGun (Jun 29, 2005)

SO with that Magis what would be the longest distance i should attempt a shot at? i realize the bow shoots a long distance but, and that i should really stick to a 40 or less, but if the opportunity came up at a trophy could i take a 60yd shot and expect it to stick with success? and not jeopardize just wounding a deer? The reason i ask is this... Where i hunt there is a spot where i can get just within 60 yds of a Trophy, and that is it. For some reason he knows if i am sitting off the path to and from this spot. But if i sit just out of good range he seems to come in. Can't shotgun there so it has to be bow. Ranged it and it is 58 yds, you think i have the power to shoot?


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## noboatdave (May 5, 2004)

_just out of good range_ You answered your own question.

While your crossbow has enough KE at 30-40 yards the bolt does not have enough weight to maintain it's energy at such longer ranges. Have you practiced a 58 yard shot? 

Figure out how the deer knows you are there. Does it see you walk in? Is it smelling you?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

I too would suggest getting closer. Even if there was enough energy left (I'm not saying there isn't), there are too many other factors. The noise factor of a crossbow is a big one. A deer will almost always hear the shot, and it's very possible for them to move considerably by the time the bolt reaches the target. Wind, unseen twigs, and and the deer moving on it's own could also turn it into a bad situation. I've always felt that about 35 yards would be all I'd want to shoot with a crossbow if I used one, because of the noise and potential reaction.


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## ARGEE (Apr 5, 2004)

Ok Heres What Someone Told Me Tonight,,

Take The Speed Of The Arrow Squared

Times The Arrow Weight In Grains

Take That No. And Divide It By 450240

That Gives The Kinetic Energy In Foot Lbs.


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## TopGun (Jun 29, 2005)

i agree the sound alone can spook a deer, i have had them actually duck under the arrow from my old Horten Sportsman, my problem is this.... the property i hunt is relatively small, it is a spot i go to after work sometimes because it is close. The surrounding neighbors DO NOT ALLOW ANY HUNTING! PERIOD. If they see you they will actually let out the dogs to bark clank a hammer on a trash can lid until you get so tired of the sound you leave.The properties are all cut down down all three in a row. It borders the turnpike on the backruns parallel along the properties, and a small valley with a stream at the bottom runs along that i ranged out the distance and it is 52 yds at the closest. Without wading an 8 foot deep stream. I will be shooting across the valley. No problem of shooting across the turnpike though, the hill is a huge backstop. This deer has got to go 275it is like an ELk body His antlers spread out about three times the width of his body the look like a narled mess of tines and drops and points, but huge. If i were to get off a clean shot and drop him i could go and get on the turnpike stop by the side of the road and maybe get a rope hooked to him and throw it over the stream to the other side and try to winch him over, back onto the property side of the stream where i can access it easily. This in itself sounds like a chore. The more i think about it i am obsessed with this buck lol I never get crazy over a deer but this one is absolutely huge. Maybe i just need to let it go. He is that big because he is protected. The last thing i want is to shoot him and then he makes it to one of the other properties where i cannot hunt and track him. So i guess in writing this i answered some of my own questions. He lives on and maybe some day i will get a shot with much better odds for success. Sometimes seeing things in writing and sounding off others it helps you to make better decisions. Thanks all for your input!


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## DrZ (Apr 28, 2004)

I was away from a PC for a weekend and look what I missed out on. LOL

TopGun: Sounds like a lucky Buck. He picked a good place to live, thats probably why he is so big.

Some notes on carbon arrows: 

When extruded carbons came out in the early 1990's There were warnings on some arrows about the "carbon fibers in your meat" thing. All carbon arrows I know of are now wrapped not extruded and they do not splinter the same way. 

Easton would much rather sell you game getters and xx75's than carbon arrows. Period. Carbon arrows are expensive to make and that is why they are expensive to sell. Easton has the metal arrow making process down; no one can compete with them in that realm. Other companies broke into the arrow market with all carbon arrows. Easton makes carbons to compete with other carbon arrow makers.

Crossbows at a distance: Bad idea. The variables that affect the stability of an arrow at long ranges are momentum, the distance between the pile and the fletching, and the surface to weight ratio of the projectile. In those categories crossbows get a poor rating when compared to a compound.


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