# Newb deer gun question



## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Ive shot guns for about 9 years just for shits and kicks. I got a 16 gauge jc. Higgins and a 12 gauge tristar semi automatic. 

They got beads. I was wondering about getting a gun with iron sights and putting a raised scope on it. Figure if the scope is too inaccurate ill take the scope off and just use irons.

I was wondering whats a good good gun for deer hunting under 600 bucks? Obviously i want something rifle barreled with pin point accuracy. Can i put iron sights on any gun or should it come premade? 

Also are all raised scopes created equal? Or is there a must have? Ive been told raised scopes are inaccurate, and to just go with irons. But id rather have both.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I've used raised scopes on my old Remington 1100's and got great accuracy. I liked the tv view 3x9x40 scopes. now I just hunt the muzzleloader season.
sherman


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

You are talking Ohio Right?
Do you want perfect 50yd accuracy, or go out to 100yd?
Every see-through mount that I have on my rifles, work perfectly, ,,,,if mounted properly.
If 100yds will be the norm,,,, I'd forget those iron sights,,,,,,,, 
& I'm a red-dot fan,,,, Very quick target acquisition! 
(my OLD Moss .410 pump has about 19 notches on it, since I had those first shoulder surgeries, & it still has the same old Tasco 30mm red-dot on it.)
I'd recommend All Remington, Mossburge, PUMPS for deer hunting & price.
When deciding, for Ohio, also consider those STRAIGHT WALL calibers for accuracy, or go muzzeloader .


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

$600 will buy a lot of slug gun or a marlin/Remington(remlin)rifle. My buddy has had 2 of the remlin(lever action)in 45/70. Both would shoot around 1 inch groups at 100 yards. Legitimate 200 yard gun. The quality was bad a few years ago when Remington first bought Marlin, but I think that’s been resolved. And I generally am not a Remington fan. I don’t like all recoil with the 45/70, or my Benelli 12 ga with sabots. I like the remlins in 44 mag, much less recoil, but it probably runs out of energy by 100 yards.
For a slug gun, I’d look at and read the reviews on a savage model 220. It’s basically a savage rifle with a 20 gauge slug barrel. I’d go that route rather than buying an 870 or mossberg shotgun with a slug barrel on it. The remlin and the 220 come with drilled and tapped receivers for proper scope mounting.
Like previously mentioned muzzle loaders are good too, but it’s not as simple and foolproof as loading the magazine and chamber on a rifle or shotgun. but I love shooting my muzzle loaders. I also misfired once in the rain on a very nice buck.


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## Minnowhead (Jan 12, 2011)

For $600 you can get a great deer shotgun or a Lever action 45/70.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Lundy has a few for sale in the market place you should check out.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Yes its for ohio. I think 50 yards is good enough. I like the idea of 100 yards but if i miss i dont want a 45/70 slug traveling through the woods. I do have neighbors. 

Of course there are times too i see a deer far far away and my 16 gauge cant hit him..a more powerful rifle could get me on it. i’ll have to think about that more.

Ive leaned toward the 44 marlin but all of them have scopes. I want the iron sights. Perhaps being a dumb newb im just getting in my own way. Should prob just settle for the scope. I just dont know how ill get the deer when he runs past me. I want that iron so i can get up close and personal lol.

Ive never heard of the savage. Ill have to look into it. Lundy is 3 hours away in grove city. Im in ashtabula lol. Not looking forward to that drive lol


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## gotta hit (Dec 11, 2007)

rifled barrels and sabot slugs have come a long way in the yrs, you can take them out passed 100yrd+ with no problem, I have iron sights set for 50yrd scope out to 125yrds


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

gotta hit said:


> rifled barrels and sabot slugs have come a long way in the yrs, you can take them out passed 100yrd+ with no problem, I have iron sights set for 50yrd scope out to 125yrds


That sounds right. What kind of gun is it?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

ezbite said:


> Lundy has a few for sale in the market place you should check out.


And those are some excellent slug guns Lundy has also.

Agree with those supporting a scope for 100yd shots.
I was an open sight guy up until about 5yrs ago when the ole eyesight started leaving. Now, I prefer scoped for anything past about 75's. When I shot rifled sites, never shot at a running deer. Never considered myself good enough to hit that 'sweet spot' on a running deer and I figured I owed it to the deer to kill it as humanely and quickly as possible. So switching over from open to scope was not an issue.
Far as the see thru mounts goes...I have a couple rifles with see thru's.
As was said earlier, get good ones and have a good base. Always tried to get the lowest see thru mounts I could find that would allow them to be functional and still let me use my irons. The lower see thru's seem to be stronger and allowed me to keep a good check weld on the rifle and still be able to switch from scope to irons without much head movement.


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## gotta hit (Dec 11, 2007)

hailtothethief said:


> That sounds right. What kind of gun is it?


I use a Mossberg 695 ported slug gun


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

That looks right. How’s your shoulder hold up? My 12 gauge bruises me but has knock down power. Id like to save my shoulder a little.


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## gotta hit (Dec 11, 2007)

no problem with the shoulder, I use Remington copper solids 3in mags, you can try a limbsaver recoil pad they work awesome I have one on my trap gun


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks! I think i know what im gonna get. I still have a hundred pages to read in the gun forum but thats basically what i want.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

fastwater said:


> When I shot rifled sites, never shot at a running deer. Never considered myself good enough to hit that 'sweet spot' on a running deer and I figured I owed it to the deer to kill it as humanely and quickly as possible. So switching over from open to scope was not an issue.


Both my 12 gauge and my 16 gauge have knock down power. Ive never had a deer run. Even when ive missed badly and shot the deer in the arse it dropped and i ended its life within 30 seconds.

Edit- i was pushing through the brush and a deer appeared and jumped. On the jump its arse was in my sights and i popped him in the arse. I could have waited for a side shot, but it happened very quickly and i just reacted. I dont think id take that shot again.

I can see what you mean im not putting holes in deer, having them run and die later. I used to shoot moving targets all the time for target practice.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

The picture of the gun with the raised scope mounts is the least accurate setup you can choose. Choose one or the other, optics or iron sights, not both. You can not get proper cheek weld with that stock shown with the scope at that height to shoot consistently.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

"knockdown power" is a misnomer. kinetic energy is simple math equation of mass times velocity.

To determine your "energy" you need to determine the type of slug and velocities you will be shooting. Not all shotgun slugs are created equal. Some vary in the same gauge by 300-400 FPS depending on the manufacturer. Then you have to know the ballistic coefficient of the slug to determined retained energy downrange.

As an example,two very common rounds that people use. The 12 ga slug, Remington Copper Solid, 1 oz, muzzle velocity 1200FPS, 100 yds 873FPS, muzzle energy 1397 ft lbs, 739 ft lbs at 100 yds, 7.4" low at 100yds.. in comparison to a Federal premium 20 gauge sabot 5/8 oz, 1900 FPS muzzle, 1500 FPS at 100 yds, 2200 Ft lbs energy at muzzle, 1350 ft lbs at 100 yds, 1.5" high at 50 yds zero at 100 yds.

Now this is published data from each manufacturer for the slugs I reference. The 20 ga load they use a 24" test barrel and no one hunts with a 24" barrel so the data will come down a little but I only use this to illustrate that "knockdown power" in this instance has little to do with ga and a lot to do with the load you are shooting. In this case the 20 gauge has much more "knockdown power" Choosing a 12 ga sabot load would reverse this comparison outcome.

What ever gun you choose make sure you choose the the load, not just the gauge, carefully to achieve your desired results for your hunting scenarios.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

With today's sabot slugs a 20 gauge is all that you need. No reason to put up with the recoil of a 12 gauge.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

I have a smooth barrel and use rifled slugs. I think thats right. The sabot slugs are rifled only.

Lundy, not that i know what cheek weld means, i just looked it up, but my friend wants to know why cheek weld would be bad on that mossberg pic? Is cheek weld bad on all raised scopes or is their something about the set up u dont like?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

High rings and low comb stocks make it more difficult to get proper and repeatable alignment . Look at how high the center line of the scope is to the comb of the stock. The refer to how you mount the stock to your face as "check weld" in this instance unless your friend has a huge head (dimensional not self admiration)he would need to use "chin weld" to see through that scope.

In a hunting situation you should be able to mount the gun a smooth repeatable motion that is the same very time. In a properly fitting gun you should not need to think about mounting the gun, it should just happen. If you need to adjust your mount each time because the gun is not set up properly for the shooter it can lead to less than desirable results. When I taught archery I tried to convey that the single most important criteria of obtaining consistent shooting is repetition. If you do exactly the same things, the same way every time, even it they are not correct or best form,the arrow has no choice but to go to the same spot. It is the same with shooting a gun, mount the gun the same, hold the gun the same, sight the gun the same, pull the trigger the same and the gun will shoot the same. The high rings make just it more difficult to mount the gun the same each time, especially in hunting situations.

There is a pretty good reason that special purpose shotguns with rifled barrels intended for optics don't also have iron sights. If you want to shot iron sights go get a 870 or 1187 and some copper solids and you are good to go.

Just my opinion, that and $6 will buy you a cup of coffee


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Alright i understand now. I didnt notice the butt of the gun was low. 

I also didnt know a red dot and a scope were different. I guess with todays technology all you need is a red dot. I went hunting today and my friend shot a doe 10 yards in front of him. Try that with a scope lol. He had a red dot.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Cheek weld, trigger pull and recoil. That’s why I suggest the savage bolt action 220. Again, rather than a shotgun trigger and stock with a slug barrel(which is what I have) the savage 220 is a rifle with a rifled barrel on it. Pretty sure some or all of them have adjustable trigger weight too. I can shoot ok with 5-7pound trigger pulls, but i shoot much better with a lighter trigger. The poster said he’d never heard of a Savage. They make pretty good guns.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

I’ll definately check out and fire a savage. Id like to get something quality. I’ll probably go for something with more power though. I usually hunt thick brush so 50 yards is enough but if i hunt open corn fields id like a 200 yard gun. I already have two 50 yard guns so i guess im covered on short yardage. If i can get a 12 gauge that doesnt destroy my shoulder id rather have the extra power.

And i realize there’s prob 20 gauge with rifled barrels i can get that can launch a sabot 200 yards but i feel more comfortable with a 12 gauge rifled than a 20. I would think a more powerful gun would help keep the slug in the air longer.


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## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

take a look at the Ruger 450 Bushmaster, its a little over $400.00 plus a scope and will shoot 200 yards, and doesn't have bad recoil.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Doboy got me interested in the straight walls. Im getting pulled in too many directions lol. Alot of people seem to like the ruger bushmaster. Its on my list for sure. Ill get a short list of the best straight walls eventually. 

Seems to be the direction im headed in since i want to add a longer range gun to complement my selection.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Thinking about it when i go hunt the north side of the property i dont have to worry about stray bullets or bullets going through the deer and keep going cause the corn field goes up hill. So i think i can get away with a more powerful longer ranged gun.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

hailtothethief said:


> Alright i understand now. I didnt notice the butt of the gun was low.
> 
> I also didnt know a red dot and a scope were different. I guess with todays technology all you need is a red dot. I went hunting today and my friend shot a doe 10 yards in front of him. Try that with a scope lol. He had a red dot.


A scope is no problem at 10 yards.


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Wha


Muddy said:


> A scope is no problem at 10 yards.


What scope shoots well short and far?


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## bumpus (Jan 17, 2015)

What do you consider far? I have a 2-7 on my Savage 220 I'm good from 0-200


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

hailtothethief said:


> Wha
> 
> 
> What scope shoots well short and far?


Whatever scope you have sighted in for 50,60 yards or whatever distance will still be good from 20 feet...it'll just be a more powerful shot...finding game in a scope is just something that takes getting used to...if that's what you were referring to...once you find out how to do it and get used to it, getting an animal that's running quickly in your scope is no problem...


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

Yeah finding a deer running in a scope is no fun. I think i like the rod dot better. No magnification


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

hailtothethief said:


> Yeah finding a deer running in a scope is no fun. I think i like the rod dot better. No magnification


Like I said with practice it's easy...but if you prefer a red dot and have used one then that's what I would go for...personally, I don't like them but that's just my opinion.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

hailtothethief said:


> Yeah finding a deer running in a scope is no fun. I think i like the rod dot better. No magnification


Like I said with practice it's easy...but if you prefer a red dot and have used one then that's what I would go for...personally, I don't like them but that's just my opinion...also I like my scope to double as binoculars...


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

I have Nikon prostaff 32 mm 2x7 on TC omega muzzle loader. Leopold vx1 32 mm 2x7 on Benelli sbe 2 with rifled barrel. I like the smaller (32mm) scopes. I’d probably never shoot over 125 yards, because I never practice over 100 yards and 7x is more than enough zoom. 7x is probably fine out to 200 + yards, but I don’t really know. I leave it on 2 or 3x, much better field of view for close shots.
I like the luepold a little better, but the prostaff seems to be a better value((around $140) it’s about $75 -$80 cheaper than the vx1, lifetime warranty on both and optics are comparable. I’ve heard luepold customer service is better, but had no problems out of either scope.
I’ve had issues with entry level Simmons and Bushnell and they just haven’t held up well to the heavy recoil Of slugs or even muzzle loader. Bushnell trophy scopes get good reviews, but I’ve never owned one.
Be sure to compare clarity, light transmission(for dusk and dawn) and eye relief. I have short arms and neck, the extra eye relief helps me out


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## BuckeyeHusker (Feb 27, 2014)

I recently purchased a CVA .450 Bushmaster...love it. I zeroed it at 150 yards so it's good from 0-200 with having to "holdover" for a shot. Ample power out to 300 yards if had to make that shot, but I personally limit myself to 250. Shot a doe with it on opening day at 130 yard at she didn't take a single step when she was hit. Rifle and Nikon BDC scope all under $600.




hailtothethief said:


> Doboy got me interested in the straight walls. Im getting pulled in too many directions lol. Alot of people seem to like the ruger bushmaster. Its on my list for sure. Ill get a short list of the bes


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

also I like my scope to double as binoculars...[/QUOTE said:


> Could you explain how you accomplish this?


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## halfrack (Oct 13, 2004)

Harry1959 said:


> Cheek weld, trigger pull and recoil. That’s why I suggest the savage bolt action 220. Again, rather than a shotgun trigger and stock with a slug barrel(which is what I have) the savage 220 is a rifle with a rifled barrel on it. Pretty sure some or all of them have adjustable trigger weight too. I can shoot ok with 5-7pound trigger pulls, but i shoot much better with a lighter trigger. The poster said he’d never heard of a Savage. They make pretty good guns.


 I have a savage 220 and really like the gun a lot. I have it sighted in out to 130 yds dead on. I shoot remington accutips 2 3/4 . Plus no kick and fun to shoot. I have a bushnell 3 x8 x40 scope on it have killed a lot of deer with it. I have no interest in shooting 12 ga. Again.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

What I meant was if there is something that I wanna take a look thats far off I'll just throw the scope up and take a closer look...with a red dot there is no magnification...they are a shorter range scope...but they do have benefits.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

halfrack said:


> I have a savage 220 and really like the gun a lot. I have it sighted in out to 130 yds dead on. I shoot remington accutips 2 3/4 . Plus no kick and fun to shoot. I have a bushnell 3 x8 x40 scope on it have killed a lot of deer with it. I have no interest in shooting 12 ga. Again.


That's basically my exact setup as well.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

A 2-7 or 3-9 works for any distance. I prefer Leupold and Nikon. There are some great deals right now. Cabelas has the VXI for $149 and the Nikon BDC for $99. Both are 3-9. 


hailtothethief said:


> Wha
> 
> 
> What scope shoots well short and far?


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## hailtothethief (Jan 18, 2017)

I see. You just gotta spend $$$ for a good scope that works. Makes sense. I prob used a 20$ scope. That’s why i couldnt see anything up close but did work great for distance.


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

Shad Rap said:


> What I meant was if there is something that I wanna take a look thats far off I'll just throw the scope up and take a closer look...with a red dot there is no magnification...they are a shorter range scope...but they do have benefits.


What type of scope mount do you use?


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

DiverDux said:


> What type of scope mount do you use?


Ok let me rephrase it...I'll throw the gun up and look through the scope.


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

hailtothethief said:


> Yeah finding a deer running in a scope is no fun. I think i like the rod dot better. No magnification


There is no need to shoot at a running deer. Slow down. Know your weapon and pick your shots. You will kill way more deer and do it humanely.


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## DiverDux (May 19, 2012)

Shad Rap said:


> Ok let me rephrase it...I'll throw the gun up and look through the scope.


What type of scope mounts do you use?


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

DiverDux said:


> What type of scope mounts do you use?


Not raised.


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