# Blackhorn 209?



## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

Anyone using this blackpowder substitute?

I am planning to replace my not so trusty, awfully rusty TC triumph next year and am planning to start a new program with the new gun.

Randy Wakeman, who doesn't seem to like much of anything, seems to like the stuff.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Add IMR whitehots to the list.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Great stuff. You will like the results in every way.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

I shoot a CVA APEX 50 cal. 250 grain Hornady SST in front of 100 grains of BH 209. The stuff is night and day over most other types of powder and I have shot them all from regular black to Pryodex Triple 7 in both loose and pellet. The problem with most other powders is they are dirty and they are thirsty. The Trip 7 and White hots foul the barrel quicker due to the material used to form the pellets. I found that with any other powder I could get 4 or 5 shots off before the bore fouled to the point of nearly impossible to load. 
However with the Blackhorn I have shot 25 shots at the range with no change in loading or the impact of the bullet. It does not draw water or corrode like regular black and Trip 7. It makes about 20% of the smoke that other powders do and is very consistant in performance. 

Now for the down side, It is Nitrocelulos based and therefore requires a hotter ignition source than Black or any of the popular subs. The bullet needs to stay tight against the load for full ignition. You can not use any of the black powder designed 209 primers they are not hot enough. While they will work they are inconsistent. Use regular 209 shotgun primers like CCI .

Plain and simple, I love the stuff and would not go back to any form of Pellets or other black substitute.


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## nick99 (Mar 8, 2010)

Just got some going to try it out this weekend


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## BITE-ME (Sep 5, 2005)

I just bought some of the BH 209 (Blackhorn 209) this week and can't wait to try it out at the range this weekend. I am sick of swabbing crud in between shots with Triple 7 to get the desired accuracy. Did a bunch of reading up on the BH 209... thought this guy offered some of the best advice and insight on his blogs - http://www.maxmuzzleloader.com/ 

The only bad reports I heard on BH 209 were guys having problems with ignition or hang fires, but this was usually due to not using the right primer as FAB mentioned or too much fouling in the breech plug fire channel. Sounded like guys were also having issues with the new longer style breech plugs and breech plugs with flat & shallow plug faces. I read somewhere that there are after market replacement breech plugs available for some CVA muzzleloaders and other brands that have poorly designed breech plugs that are non-compatible with BH 209.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I set up a Remington 700 ML, 45 cal for my DIL last year with BH 209 and liked it a lot. I still have a bunch of T7 and Pyrodex but I can't imagine wanted to ever go back to them. The White hots and T7 are very close in performance, neither is much cleaner than the other, You do get to pay more for the pretty white color however over the T7 pellets.

You will get more velocity, cleaner burning and pretty easy cleanup with the BH209. If your guns breechplug will work with it the choice is a pretty easy, other than it is pricey and sometimes hard to find in stock due to it's popularity. At least that is my opinion.

I had no problems with ignition but I was using the Federal 209A primers.

I would suggest you shoot either the federal 209A's or the 209 CCI magnums


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

ive shot just about all the mz propellents out there at one time or another. im done looking now that ive found blackhorn. REMEMBER to measure your powder charges by VOLUME first. i did 120 grains by weight and after 2 shots knew something was wrong after the recoil of second shot knocked my ear muffs off i then read the bottle and saw you should only measure by volume (what me read directions first??) i then went on to experiement with different volumes and found 100 grains volume with the 250 solid copper barnes is the load my rifle likes. the 3 dead deer this year prove it too. i do weight each charge of powder because i want to have the exact same amount of powder for every shot. roughly 100 grains volume was close to 75 grains weight, so now i dont even mess with a volume measure, i just preweigh 75 grain charges before i head out to hunt or do range time. i got a bunch of those little plastic dime holders from the hobby shop and just keep the 1 charge of powder in one dime holder. ive got about 30 of those things now.

here a thread i did a little while back while i was playing around. 

dont use kleenbore primers, stick with regular 209 shotgun primers.

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=242702&highlight=ezbite


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

My only concern is that it seems to be compatible with only a select number of muzzleloaders. I own one of those that are supposed to work with it, but again, it is headed for the trash can. For the extremely limited use a muzzleloader gets from me nowadays, I was going to grab a cva wolf. But the new ones are not compatible because of the breech.


I guess maybe I'll try to resurrect my triumph. A replacement breech plug for it (the steel rings on it broke up and fell off) and lower accuracy standards (heavily pitted bore despite excellent care according to manufacturers guidelines) would be cheaper anyways. However, it has the long flat speed breech plug like mentioned above, so it might not work, even though blackhorn approves the model.


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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

I shoot 100 grains of BH209 with Hornady 245gr xtps or 250 gr Shockwaves with the black Crushed Rib sabots with the same results; bullet holes touching each other at 100 yards. This is with a Triumph. I've had numerous misfures over the years with 777 pellets.

Most places want around $35 for it. Gander has a $47 price tag on theirs.


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## GasFish26 (Aug 15, 2012)

Fin feather has it for 33.99 I believe
And they had a full shelf.

As did gander mt, but don't pay that redic price.

Not sure if they have the 209 breech plug, those usually are hard to find this time of year


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## turkeyt (Apr 13, 2006)

209 is a modern replacement for modern muzzleloaders. I would say there may be some problems using it in the older cap style muzzleloaders. 209 is much more bulky than other powders and as said must be weighed in volume. It is tubular and looks more like some smokeless powders. 209 is cleaner burning and crud rings are not an issue and the accuracy and velocity are good. Hotter ignition is needed as said before. I would say the only people who don't care for it would be the owners of Hodgden.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

The Wolf breechplug will work just fine with BH 209. What you may need to do if you get an occasional misfire or delayed fire at the range is to open the tiny flash orifice on the end of the plug to about 20% larger than it is. I did this on my Brother-in-laws wolf, my APEX and a couple of others and no more problem. However most of the new CVA's have available from BP products (the parent company of CVA) a BH209 breechplug. for about 25 bucks. The difference in the plugs is an indentation in the face of the plug to set the powder a little closer to ignition and a larger flash channel. You may not need either if you buy a new gun, most manufacturers are already making slight design changes to accommodate the new propellant.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I would try it in both guns with the hotter 209"s certainly not the Kleenbore 209's

Also please be careful about opening up the orifice size on your breechplug. That is the pressure reduction opening that is keeping 30,000 + PSI away from your face. If you try that route go a TINY amount and look for signs of too much pressure on the 209's


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

Great info.

As I am headed to eastern virginia to gun for sea ducks and brant at the same time that our muzzleloader season is on, I will not need it this year, so there is no hurry.

I did not know about the special breechplug for the wolf, though from a quick search it is for the old screw in breech, not the new fast breech.

By next summer I might be more willing to purchase a more expensive gun as well.

I'll pick up a bottle and test my existing rifle before doing anything else (with a new breech plug). I will be keeping it for a 50 yard shooting spare or for when my boy get old enough to hunt.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

@Lundy

I was surprised to see that you thought T7 and Whitehots were comparable with fouling. My experience with Whitehots is that it is much cleaner than T7 and night and day over Pyrodex. It's the best thing going in a pellet amongst everything I have tried. I never ran them through a chrono but the Whitehot is supposed to be a tiny bit faster than the other pellets. Like 100-200FPS maybe?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

buckeye dan said:


> @Lundy
> 
> I was surprised to see that you thought T7 and Whitehots were comparable with fouling. My experience with Whitehots is that it is much cleaner than T7 and night and day over Pyrodex. It's the best thing going in a pellet amongst everything I have tried. I never ran them through a chrono but the Whitehot is supposed to be a tiny bit faster than the other pellets. Like 100-200FPS maybe?


They are not bad by any means at all, they are good pellets. Testing hasn't revealed any measureable velocity increases over T7, some even report less velocity versus T7 and while white hots might be a little bit cleaner than T7 it is still much dirtier burning than the BH209. 

Whitehots will shoot well in most any MZ and kill any deer walking, I just think there is a better choice if the gun can ignite BH209 and doesn't mind loose powder versus the convenience of pellets. 100 to 200 FPS is a bunch in velocity difference between any of the black powder substitutes. BH209 is pretty much recognized as the fastest grain for grain and I don't think even it provides that kind of ballistic advantage over T7 or Whitehots

Didn't mean to imply they were bad, but for pretty much equal performance and a premium price over T7 if I had to choose only one it might be the T7

Also I put a new thread (Buckeye Dan) in the gun forum about a week ago asking you for any updates you might have on the PCR efforts - Thanks


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Lundy said:


> Also I put a new thread (Buckeye Dan) in the gun forum about a week ago asking you for any updates you might have on the PCR efforts - Thanks


Doh! I missed that completely. Looking for it now.


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

My dad has been shooting it out of his T/C Prohunter for a couple of years now. Absolutely loves it and will never look back. Give multiple cans of Triple Seven and Pyrodex away.


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## excalman (May 24, 2013)

I went bh209 the best powder out there . I also gave t7 and pyrodex away also. I would shoot any thing but bh209 out of the t\c.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

ezbite said:


> ive shot just about all the mz propellents out there at one time or another. im done looking now that ive found blackhorn. REMEMBER to measure your powder charges by VOLUME first. i did 120 grains by weight and after 2 shots knew something was wrong after the recoil of second shot knocked my ear muffs off i then read the bottle and saw you should only measure by volume (what me read directions first??) i then went on to experiement with different volumes and found 100 grains volume with the 250 solid copper barnes is the load my rifle likes. the 3 dead deer this year prove it too. i do weight each charge of powder because i want to have the exact same amount of powder for every shot. roughly 100 grains volume was close to 75 grains weight, so now i dont even mess with a volume measure, i just preweigh 75 grain charges before i head out to hunt or do range time. i got a bunch of those little plastic dime holders from the hobby shop and just keep the 1 charge of powder in one dime holder. ive got about 30 of those things now.
> 
> here a thread i did a little while back while i was playing around.
> 
> ...


Holy cow! At least you know your barrel is in good shape, otherwise you might have wound up without a face! Yes, a grain weight charge is about 3/4 of the volumetric charge. 

Cool thread. I changed from regular Pyrodex to T7 a couple years ago. Yes, there was a little less smoke and no sulfur stink, but man, the barrel still gets really cruddy! And I've put some awesome crud rings on the breech plug. 

Just by chance I happened upon a website for an outfit called Precision Rifle Bullets (prbullets.com). In an essay he posted when T7 first came out he liked the powder (as compared to Pyrodex), but, he has absolutely no use for the pre-measured pellets. Until now I had no idea that whatever they use to stick the pellets together is what was responsible for so much fouling. And, as far as developing the most accurate load for your ML, he couldn't understand how you could do that using pellets as opposed to loose powder which gives you a nearly infinite number of loads to try! 

As far as having the bullet down tight to the powder, he had another interesting observation as far as in-line ML's are concerned. He thinks the 209 primer is a bit much. Seems he was getting to know one of his new in-lines, but was getting a "flyer" now and then and couldn't understand it, since his between shot routine was the same every time. Then, he tried an experiment. He swabbed the bore with a wet patch, then, wet another patch and seated it (no load) with the ramrod. He put a 209 primer in the breech plug and touched 'er off with the patch and ramrod still in the barrel. The 209 primer alone had enough force to push the patch and ramrod about 6" up the barrel. He wondered if the concussive force of the 209 was "loosening his load" so to speak.

Eventually, he wound up machining some breech plugs (mostly for T/C Omegas as I recall) to accept an adapter that would hold a small rifle primer. Don't know if it would work with BH209 (BTW, is the "209" in their name a reference to the type of primer to use?), and I didn't see anything about BH209 on their website. Interesting to think about.

Anyway, cool thread, and thought provoking. Once ML season is done, I'm looking to make my ML as accurate as possible. Oh Lord, this is going to cost me some money! Let's keep the ideas coming!


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

http://www.prbullet.com/ Pioneered the hot but low pressure ignition system. My cousin did the .25ACP conversion on his T/C Encore. It went from 3"+ groups to 1 inch or less groups. Then they made the Vari Flame system.

They do the Vari Flame PRIMER ADAPTERS now. Little brass cups that accept small rifle primers. I have never tried those but I want to and you don't have to send them your breech plug for those. 

The T7 primers are filthy. Once the box I have is used up, I will never buy them again. The Remington ML primers are good but not as good as I expect the Vari Flames to be and those are tunable with different brands and ignition strengths.


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## RiverWader (Apr 1, 2006)

Is there a list of compatible guns for this powder??


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Thompson Center
Encore  all models with the speed breech and older style omega breech plugs
Triumph  all models
Omega  all models
Impact

Traditions
Vortek - all models with the accelerator breech plug
Pursuit - all models with the accelerator and A1446 or A1445 breech plug
Bulkstalker


Knight Rifles
Disk Extreme and Elite (with the Lehigh Bullets conversion breech plug)
http://www.lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=28

CVA
(AC1678A breech plugs only)
Optima
Kodiak
Wolf
Models with the new quick release breech plug are not reliable. Contact Ron Laughlin [email protected] for a breech plug that will work.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

buckeye dan said:


> Thompson Center
> Encore  all models with the speed breech and older style omega breech plugs
> Triumph  all models
> Omega  all models
> ...


Loving this thread! I have a Traditions Pursuit Pro. How can I tell what breech plug I have? Is it in the owner's manual? Maybe I should just call them and ask. 

I'm using Winchester W209 primers. Don't know how they rank on the dirtiness scale. 

Also love the prbullet website. The vari-flame ignition system has me intrigued, as well as the dual sabot .357 Cal bullet. The man seems like a very innovative thinker.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

buckeyebowman said:


> I'm using Winchester W209 primers. Don't know how they rank on the dirtiness scale.
> 
> Also love the prbullet website. The vari-flame ignition system has me intrigued, as well as the dual sabot .357 Cal bullet. The man seems like a very innovative thinker.


It is not really as much of an issue of how dirty the W209's are it is much more about them being "hot" enough to ignite BH 209 reliable.

I have shot a bunch of PR bullets over the years, mostly from my Knights with Pyrodex and T7.

I tried them from my Savage and they don't work well at smokeless speeds. I know a bunch tried the .357 duel sabot in the smokeless MZ's and could not get them to shoot. Just too much pressure for the sabots to hold up with a bullet that much undersized to the bore. There have been successes with T7 and Pyrodex. They might work with BH209, I don't know. I would love to hear your results if you try them.


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## GasFish26 (Aug 15, 2012)

Lundy

Can you tell us more about the prbullets

I was going to try some last year but never got around to ordering any

Which sizes and bullets are good?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

We shot and killed deer with the 260 Grain Dead Centers.

They were very accurate out of my Knight 50 cals and worked just fine on deer.

They are a high quality bullet, easy to tell just by looking at them

I do not buy into the higher BC data, at least not at the ranges, out to 150 yds that we were shooting them at. 

I switched to the Barnes MZ all copper bullets in my Knights after a few seasons with the Dead Centers and felt they offered the best performance of any bullet I had ever shot a deer with, bone on soft flesh hit.

I no longer hunt with my Knights, but still hunt with Muzzleloaders and still shoot only Barnes all copper bullets.

They make bunches of different bullets and some guns will shoot one brand better than another. The majority of them will kill a deer just fine. I would personally always choose accuracy over the minimal difference in bullet performance of most bullets. I want to know where the bullet is going to go. Fortunately for me the Barnes is the most accurate in my MZ's and I think the best bullet available for how I hunt.

You won't be making a bad choice by any means to shoot the PR bullets, but they are not a "magic bullet".


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Lundy said:


> It is not really as much of an issue of how dirty the W209's are it is much more about them being "hot" enough to ignite BH 209 reliable.
> 
> I have shot a bunch of PR bullets over the years, mostly from my Knights with Pyrodex and T7.
> 
> I tried them from my Savage and they don't work well at smokeless speeds. I know a bunch tried the .357 duel sabot in the smokeless MZ's and could not get them to shoot. Just too much pressure for the sabots to hold up with a bullet that much undersized to the bore. There have been successes with T7 and Pyrodex. They might work with BH209, I don't know. I would love to hear your results if you try them.


I just might try them, after the late ML season of course, and will let you know.



GasFish26 said:


> Lundy
> 
> Can you tell us more about the prbullets
> 
> ...


Was kind of wondering the same thing myself as they certainly have a wide range of products available. They show a phone number on their website, and state that they do try to answer all call "live" as it were. That is, unless the guy is out hunting caribou or something. I've thought about just calling them up, laying out what I have, and getting his opinion. Probably won't do it until this hunting season is over. No sense changing horses in mid stream.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

I never got around to the prbullets. I never got past the Harvester Scorpion PT's. Here:
http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ion=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3&vmcchk=1&Itemid=3

@Lundy, They make a sabot specifically for smokeless ML's too. Here:
http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=18

I have no idea how the Hornady FPB's would perform in a smokeless but no plastic to deal with at all.
http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

***EDIT***

I've been in contact with Cecil at prbullet. They discontinued the small rifle primer Vari Flame system. Reportedly because it would not ignite BH 209 powder.


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## GasFish26 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks Lundy for your responses on the prbullets




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