# Bird Dogs



## THEsportsMAN

I'm in the market for a bird dog. Will mainly be doing upland bird hunting. I have grown up hunting over both labs and pointers. I love the way that a lab goes after a bird, I also love to see a good point. Looking for some advice regarding difficulty in training the two different types of dogs. I am leaning more toward a lab or a GSP. 

Also, if anyone has any good references for breeders in Ohio, please let me know. Thanks


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## ThunderHawk7

Tate Stratton, Stillwater Shorthairs, has great dogs. Currently has 2 NAVHDA Versitile Champions, including a littermate of my dog Grady. Gilly is Grady's Sister. He is in Ohio. 2nd suggestion... While he is not from Ohio...Richard Ray from Von Bergland Kennels also has really strong Dogs. Rich is in Summersville, WV. These guys are both handlers in NAVHDA and they always seem to have great dogs...

My neighbor bought Grady's neice and she is an awsome pup. She had a prize II NA at 8 months. If I was to buy another pup, it would come from these 2 guys. Shoot me a PM and I will look the websites up if you are interested....

Good Luck,


Hawk


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## dakotaman

Get a pointing lab!


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## ohiogsp

I am having a litter out a couple of my gsp's in the spring. The male has a Senior hunter title and the female has a Junior title. They are both great bird dogs. My male is at the master level and the female is at the senior level but with rising costs I have not been to any test in over a year. The male is DNA'ed and has been OFA'ed good. The female will have this stuff done before the litter is here also. Here is some pics of the dogs. I will also invite anyone to come see what my dogs are made of for yourselves. Thanks 


http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=184

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=366


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## ThunderHawk7

OHIOGSP, I don't believe you...However, being the fair guy that I am, I would be willing to take BA off your hands to see for myself  ...LMAO. I am just kidding Sir. I really love the looks of him. He is one awsome looking Shorthair...I was not sure if you were a breeder or not so I figured you would see the thread and post up any suggestions. I hope you are having a good season.



Hawk


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## ohiogsp

Thanks, I am having a great season I just got back from Iowa. Hope to shoot some this weekend also.


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## Basskisser1

We have a GSP.........Gus. He is a hunting machine. A bit high strung, but very loveable.


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## MJS

I am hesident to jump into this thread because people have a strong opinon 
about their dogs, but here goes. My father raised English Setters starting about 1960, we had as many as 20 at one time, and one thing I learned is
that it takes a lot of time, birds, and $$$$ to get a finished pointing dog. Unless you are willing to do that, or pay someone to do it for you, your dog may not reach its potential. I do not have much hands on expericance with labs but I have hunted over others labs many times. They are wonderful dogs 
and suitable for upland game. If you will hunt mostly pen raised birds on the day they are released a lab will do find. If you intent to hunt wild birds or birds previously released most labs (not all) will have a difficult time putting running birds in the air for you. For the last 25 years I have used English Springer Spainels, I have found them to be very good dog for the type of hunting I do mostly released Pheannts and some wild. They quickly cover the ground and are fast enough to put up running birds. You can have one trained and hunting at 18 months. I do not sell them. If you have any interest call some breeders in the Gun Dog Magizine. The down side with Springers is a high energy level, they need to be exercised almost daily. Bottom line, do your homework on the different breeds, be honest with yourself about how much time and effort you are willing to put in, and what you expect out of the dog. 

Sorry for the long post,
Mike


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## dakotaman

> If you will hunt mostly pen raised birds on the day they are released a lab will do find. If you intent to hunt wild birds or birds previously released most labs (not all) will have a difficult time putting running birds in the air for you.


I'd be happy to take you hunting with my lab on some wild birds and surely change your opinion!!!


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## littleking

MJS said:


> If you will hunt mostly pen raised birds on the day they are released a lab will do find. If you intent to hunt wild birds or birds previously released most labs (not all) will have a difficult time putting running birds in the air for you.


i don't think this is an accurate statement, i've hunted behind several labs that did awesome on both wild and pen birds. one of the labs was a pointing lab, and the other two were flushers.

wild birds are much harder for dogs to pin down/put up as they run much more. but i don't think you can generalize breeds towards wild/pen raised birds.


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## supercanoe

A well bred lab will excell at any bird hunting with proper training. They are excellent flushers on wild birds because they don't hang up on a point, allowing the bird time to run. They stay on that bird.


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## vinnystatechamp

Not to throw a monkey wrench into everything but I am personally in love with english setters. They provide a great point and can be easily trained to retrieve. They also have great noses. I've got two english setters that can find a bird like no other that I've ever seen. Just a suggestion.


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## MJS

Dakotaman, Thanks for the offer to hunt wild birds over your lab, I may take you up on it, wild birds are really hard to find up here. I hope my remarks didnt offend anyone, that was not my intention. My intention was to answer the Sportsmans orginal post. He was between a GSP and lab. For most of us a dog is a life long commitment (dogs life) and we should make ever effort to pick the right dog for us. I had a English Setter in the 70's that had been broken & trained from horseback. Great dog but ran too big for the type of terrain I was hunting, he was a Field trial dog and I was walking, not a good match. We need to ask ourselves a few questions before we choose. Will the dog be kenneled or live in the house? Will he be a hunting dog 2 days a week and a childs pet the other 5 days? What are the normal hunting conditions, crp, croplands, woods? What is the game Grouse, Phesant, Rabbit? Can the hunter keep up with a wider ranging dog? Is retreiving to hand a must? There are a lot more questions and the answers are different for each of us. I guess that is why we have developed so many breeds. 

Mike


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## ohiogsp

I train dogs and I guarantee you I can make any dog hunt close. That is not what you want with a upland dog. The dog should range out and find birds that are farther away from you than a lab would get. Comfortable range is different for everyone but do you think people trade in 10 dogs to find the one that has the range you like or do they train for it. Yes, you have to train more with a pointing dog if you want it to be nice. I run hunt test with my dogs off foot and if they can't be seen or range more than a couple hundred yards you will get points deducted. I can run the same dogs from horse back and they might range 1/4-1/2 mile. They are not stupid with a little training them will do what you want when you want. Just wanted to inform people a little but if you don't want to train a dog by all means get a lab.


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## Walter Adkins

Ask yourself a few questions, honestly. *How much do I plan on hunting? **What will I be hunting the most?* ie pheasant, quail, grouse *How fast do you cover ground?* I personally cover ground faster than most and like a dog that will keep up with me on the other hand Littleking has a dog, Addie, that covers ground at a slower rate witch works out perfect for him, and me when he lets me tag along. *Do you like a dog that just loves to test you or a dog that would rather please you? *I have had English setters that would never do things that they were not supposed to do and I have had an English pointer that came out of the truck and would do something wrong before he would take a pee just to test his boundaries. One of the best dogs I have ever hunted behind though just took a lot of work. As far as range goes, dont worry about it too much. With a little or a lot of work you can get any dog to stay in as close as you want. My English pointer was trained down south with horse back hunters. I am not on a horse so I had to make him hunt with me and not out in the other county. What I have never seen anyone do is make a dog hunt out beyond what a dog is willing to hunt. I personally want a dog that stays within 50 yards of me and the heavier the cover I want them to move in closer or check in more often. *Look at how you hunt then find a breed of dog that is know to hunt the same.*


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## ohiogsp

Good post. I just wanted to add one thing. There are dogs that will test you in any breed and dogs that will not in any breed. Look at the litter and get a more shy dog if you want a dog that listens very well. The Alfa or stronger dogs are the ones that will test you all the time. I love a alfa, you have to train alot but in the end they are the ones that give you goosebumps.


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## Walter Adkins

ohiogsp said:


> I love a alfa, you have to train alot but in the end they are the ones that give you goosebumps.


True words there and I agree. I love the boss dog to.


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## dakotaman

> *if you don't want to train a dog by all means get a lab.*


I would love to hear you elaborate on this and your opinions and reasoning behind it.


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## Walter Adkins

I was wondering the same.


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## ohiogsp

We have enough GSP's in the shelters now and don't need more. If someone gets a lab and don't train it maybe it will still be a pet but with a GSP that has "no training what so ever" it will be a dog someone wants to get rid of. They have too much energy for people who don't spend at least enough time with them to train or exercise them.


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## ThunderHawk7

> We have enough GSP's in the shelters now and don't need more. If someone gets a lab and don't train it maybe it will still be a pet but with a GSP that has "no training what so ever" it will be a dog someone wants to get rid of. They have too much energy for people who don't spend at least enough time with them to train or exercise them.


Amen to that....I cringed when the GSP won the Westminster here a couple of years ago.........Because I knew that the Shelters/Rescues and Pounds would be full of beautiful birddogs that had nothing wrong with them except for being and acting like they are supposed to.....and having an owner unprepared and ill-equipped to deal with that....

I think what happened here is that we all kind of got off the subject or question, if you will, that the original poster asked...It sounds like he had extensive experience with "birddogs" and is aware that they must be trained. I think what he may have been looking for is training as it pertains to the 2 breeds in question??? GSPs and Labs....I don't know, but that is the way I read it anyway. While it seems to have strayed off topic a bit....I will say that I hope anyone that is interested in a birddog of almost any breed will read this thread and get something from it!!!! There is some darn good info in this post...

Anyway, Is deer season over yet???? My dog is getting restless and so is his owner...LOL


Hawk


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## littleking

i see more gsp's weims and viszlas at the dog park than i do mutt's.... 1 of 50 get hunted


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## Saildog

I see the old saying still holds true, "Never question a man about his choice in religion, his choice in wives or his choice in bird dogs..."


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## Searay

Which ever breed you choose do your homework and find the best genetics in the FIELD bred (hunting) background,either of your chioces are great, with good genetics you training will be easier...


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## 77 240 SRV

I can say with 100% certainty that my Weim will not be one of those Non-Hunted dogs...People who get (Hunting Dogs)and choose not to hunt them are the reason the shelters are full of these magnificent breeds. If they want "pets" they should get a mutt.Just my 2 cents......


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## c. j. stone

Sportsman, like someone mentioned earlier in the thread, you should consider a pointing lab! You said you like labs, and that you liked to hunt over points so what is the decision? Plus, you might also get a great duck dog, and for sure, a retreiver, in the bargain! 
Though I've had a chocolate lab and a golden retriever over the years, I personally prefer Brittanys for wonderful house pets, and seasonal hunting of pheasants and grouse. I have owned them all my adult life and always had TWO(females only!-easier to train/handle)-somehow, I find myself currently with THREE!! They use my sofa(with an old sheet or blanket on it) and sleep on my bed(also with old sheets on top!)
I slip them table scraps at the table, and generally treat(spoil) them like the three "daughters" I never had. I've always had one older and one younger, the older dogs taught the younger ones to hunt-and also how to behave in the house and yard! Now I have two year-old pups and they really test the metal of my 6 year old dog, Katie. They actually have developed a broad vocabulary, as have all my dogs in the past. I use electronic training collars in the yard and in the field and the dogs have never tried to take advantage of their good treatment! The great part is, my wife goes along totally with everything mentioned above and truly loves our Brits. So go get yourself a pup and start enjoying them as a member of the family!


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## PapawSmith

Sportsman, C J and others are right. For an all around dog nothing compares to a Lab. HOWEVER, that being said, you indicated you were looking for an upland game dog. 7 years ago, when my Springer died, i decided i needed the perfect pointer. It was my turn. I read all the dog training books and NO FREAKING WAY did I have the time to train any breed to hunt close, point, flush (if you want your pointer to flush,I do I'm lazy)and retrive. So I started looking for a dog that was "born trained." Sounds stupid but I drink a lot of beer so it made perfect sense to me. Well, I swear, I found one. Lots of reading and internet searches led me to the Braques Francais (French Pointer). You cant tell them from a GSP except they are typically a little smaller. There are few in North America, and the waiting lists were long for a female, so I ended up with a first female pick from a breeder in france. I paid 3500 French Francs, that is $550 american (we are even 6 times better than the French when it comes to cash). I paid more to fly her here than I paid for her. FOR 7 YEARS SHE HAS BEEN UNBELIEVABLE! I taught her her name and, I swear, that is it. She is the best dog I have ever hunted over and she outhunts all the guide dogs she runs with EVER and I've hunted her in 5 states on numerous preserves. When she is bred, the only people that know her name are the owner of the stud and previous buyers of her pups. She is a nobody as she has never been trialed (I dont have time for that crap either). Yet I can sell her pups, on speculation, within weeks of the day she is bred. Check these dogs out their SPECTACULAR. Oh yeah, they are perfect gentle house dogs, great with kids and other animals, but they shed little fine hairs that only your wife can see but my wife can see them easier than I can see the the kitchen trash can overflowing. How does that work.


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## c. j. stone

P-smith, I'm the same way(lazy!) That's why I own Brits. They are natural born hunters, pointers, and (most of them) retrievers. I haven't done anything to train them per se, except take them out to the field and run them. I use the e-collars mostly to keep them within "my range". They will hunt if age 6 mos or so in their first season. Most are total(fair/good) gun dogs in the second season, and 'DEAD-ON" by the third. Once in a while, you get a "dead on" pup in their first season but these are rare. That's another good reason to have one older dog in the hunt since you rarely have a bad day that way. My older dog now has an agressive fatty tumor which will eventually take her but hopefully, not for another year or longer. We are taking her to a holistic vet at the Copley Vet. Hospital and I must say, he has done wonders for her(that after two previous surgeries!) Another reason I got the two pups this last time. When they are 5 or 6, I will get another pup for them to teach.


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