# Gun Registration Question.



## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Today at the Berea Gun Show, I purchased a new AR15 from a large FFL vendor. After filling out the paperwork and being approved, I proceeded to pay for the rifle in cash. When I received the rifle, I asked for the receipt. The wife of the guy that owns the business asked if I could come back in a little while for it. About 3 hours later I returned to ask for my receipt. The owner said that I did not need one. Because this was a new rifle purchase, the manual clearly stated that the firearm would be warranted for life, to the original owner, only with a receipt. The vendor refused to give me a receipt, but did refund my money. However, he refused to provide me with any documentation that the rifle was no longer registered to me. Because he's an FFL, retail vendor, is this legal? (Selling retail merchandise without a bill of sale). If not what should I do? My major concern is that the gun is registered in my name, but in the hands of someone else. Only three hours after I purchased it. I doubt the vendor has it anymore. I'm concerned that this could raise a red flag on me as being a potential straw buyer or who knows what? Any advise or input from any FFL holders would greatly be appreciated.


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

Wow, I dont even know how to Respond other than unbelievable. I wish I had some answers for you but i wouldent even know what to tell you. I have received a receipt for every new gun i have bought and would also demand so as you did. I think i would call the local sherrifs office to so how you can find out if the gun is reisterd in your name. I would have to bet that he dident go through the hassle of informing the right people that you are no longer the owner. Heck he can now sell the gun as used with out the paper work i believe. 
I was at the show today also and can say i can care less if i ever see another gun show myself. I left and went across the street to the fin and bought ammo cheaper than what they were selling it at the show for. 
Good luck and i hope you get some answers


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

I'd make a formal complaint (in writing) to the ATF about the FFL. That way their would be a paper trail in the future if anything ever happened with that gun.

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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Misdirection said:


> I'd make a formal complaint (in writing) to the ATF about the FFL. That way their would be a paper trail in the future if anything ever happened with that gun.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I feel as if I have no other choice. I'm concerned at the attention this could bring. A representative of the gun show told me that he doesn't believe a complaint would hurt his shows. I'm not sure. If I file a complaint with the ATF, everybody is under the microscope. I'm clean with the ATF. But I feel the need to cover my #$*


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## Lungbuster (Apr 8, 2012)

You definitely need to go to authorities of some level and document it. If that weapon is registered to you and ballistics show up somewhere...it's on you. 


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

There is no registration (currently) with the ATF. The 4473 you filled out was for the transfer which did happen and the background check. You returned it to the dealer that's pretty much the end of it. They still have to log it out and back into their books. 

When someone else buys the rifle, they'll do another 4473 and that's the end of it. The dealer is required to keep those on file for 7 years if I recall, maybe longer. So it's in their records and that's it. If the weapon is attached to a crime it will come back to that dealer who will have to pull their records to find it.

I do think it's a bad deal that they wouldn't give you a receipt in the first place. Which vendor was this? Also what were they asking for the AR (just wondering)


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## chardoncrestliner (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't know if this helps, but here it is:

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=1400833


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## elkhtr (Oct 23, 2006)

Sharp Charge said:


> There is no registration (currently) with the ATF. The 4473 you filled out was for the transfer which did happen and the background check. You returned it to the dealer that's pretty much the end of it. They still have to log it out and back into their books.
> 
> When someone else buys the rifle, they'll do another 4473 and that's the end of it. The dealer is required to keep those on file for 7 years if I recall, maybe longer. So it's in their records and that's it. If the weapon is attached to a crime it will come back to that dealer who will have to pull their records to find it.
> 
> I do think it's a bad deal that they wouldn't give you a receipt in the first place. Which vendor was this? Also what were they asking for the AR (just wondering)


You are assuming the dealer would fill out another 4473 for the next purchaser. If he is so crooked that he wouldnt give a receipt for a firearm purchase, he may not fill out the form for the next buyer. If the gun turns up in the wrong hands or involved in a crime, I'd expect an ATF agent may come a knocking asking a few questions. I would report it.

Are you sure the dealer even sent the 4473 through? He may just have you fill out the form to make it look good. He may have come into possession of that gun in a suspicious way.. Other than his word, how do you know it was new? Plenty of brand new guns get stolen. There is probably a reason he didnt want to give you a receipt. If things were completely legitimate, why wouldnt he? He already had a sale. Why would he refund your money? 

Follow your instincts, if it doesnt seem right, it probably isnt.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Sharp Charge said:


> There is no registration (currently) with the ATF. The 4473 you filled out was for the transfer which did happen and the background check. You returned it to the dealer that's pretty much the end of it. They still have to log it out and back into their books.
> 
> When someone else buys the rifle, they'll do another 4473 and that's the end of it. The dealer is required to keep those on file for 7 years if I recall, maybe longer. So it's in their records and that's it. If the weapon is attached to a crime it will come back to that dealer who will have to pull their records to find it.
> 
> I do think it's a bad deal that they wouldn't give you a receipt in the first place. Which vendor was this? Also what were they asking for the AR (just wondering)


Because this dealer repeatedly refused to give me a receipt, I can't trust that he would log it out and back. He's completly lost ALL my trust. As for calling him out, I would but I don't want to risk the thread being closed before I'm sure that whatever I do, is the right move. The AR was a nice one that I had no problems paying $1600 out the door.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

elkhtr said:


> You are assuming the dealer would fill out another 4473 for the next purchaser. If he is so crooked that he wouldnt give a receipt for a firearm purchase, he may not fill out the form for the next buyer. If the gun turns up in the wrong hands or involved in a crime, I'd expect an ATF agent may come a knocking asking a few questions. I would report it.
> 
> Are you sure the dealer even sent the 4473 through? He may just have you fill out the form to make it look good. He may have come into possession of that gun in a suspicious way.. Other than his word, how do you know it was new? Plenty of brand new guns get stolen. There is probably a reason he didnt want to give you a receipt. If things were completely legitimate, why wouldnt he? He already had a sale. Why would he refund your money?
> 
> Follow your instincts, if it doesnt seem right, it probably isnt.


My instincts tell me there is something very wrong here. I've been collecting firearms for more than 30 years. Never experienced anything like this. I'm seeing red flags.


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## rustyhooks (Aug 17, 2008)

sharp charge is correct, there is no handgun registration in ohio. (yet). I certainly would contact the atf about this behavior. something is deffinatley not right.


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree with you 100%, something is wrong here. I've know for private individuals not wanting to issue a bill of sale/receipt but why would a businessman not provide a receipt? What even makes me scratch my head is why the delay? If they knew they didn't want to give you a receipt why have you wait and come back. 

I'm curious did the show's promoter speak to the vendor?


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

H2O Mellon said:


> I agree with you 100%, something is wrong here. I've know for private individuals not wanting to issue a bill of sale/receipt but why would a businessman not provide a receipt? What even makes me scratch my head is why the delay? If they knew they didn't want to give you a receipt why have you wait and come back.
> 
> I'm curious did the show's promoter speak to the vendor?


Yes. Twice. The promoter stood with the dealer and believes I'm wrong.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

montagc said:


> If your worried about it, call the ATF. They will audit the guy. Either it will be shown logged out then back in in his bound book, or it won't. If it is, you're golden. If not, seller has some 'splaining to do.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Will do. Was told on their 24hr hotline that I would have to wait until tommorow, and to call their Columbus office.


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## Ken G (Apr 9, 2004)

I would be willing to bet the guy was fudging his paperwork in regard to both his income tax and Ohio's sales tax not his transfer book. He made a cash sale of $1600 on a rifle that 4-6 weeks ago sold for $1000. With no receipt he will claim to sell the rifle for $1100 and pay tax on $100 thus pocketing the extra $500. Not the first time and certainly not the last time that will happen.


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Ken G could be right. It's been a long time but when I worked at a sporting goods store certain companies (Browning and St Croix) come to mind would market their own prices. They would say you can't sell our items for less than $xx or more than $xx. If this occurred we would face the risk of not being able to sell their products. I dont know if this is still a practice by certain companies but thought if it was maybe that's why he didn't want to provide a receipt. It might be a long shot but just something that came to my mind.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Agitation Free said:


> Yes. Twice. The promoter stood with the dealer and believes I'm wrong.


Believes you are wrong for wanting a receipt.. Interesting. It all sounds pretty shady to me.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Ken G said:


> I would be willing to bet the guy was fudging his paperwork in regard to both his income tax and Ohio's sales tax not his transfer book. He made a cash sale of $1600 on a rifle that 4-6 weeks ago sold for $1000. With no receipt he will claim to sell the rifle for $1100 and pay tax on $100 thus pocketing the extra $500. Not the first time and certainly not the last time that will happen.


I've thought about this. Whatever profit he made would be taxed at 7.75%. Why would he want the ATF breathing down his back for $39.00? He actually had 4 chances to make this right before I left the show. #1. His wife told me to come back later for a receipt. #2. I came back to him for the receipt and he said that I didn't need one. #3. The shows promoter went to him on my behalf and asked him for a receipt. He returned with a "personal firearms record" pamphlet. I told the promoter that I have a personal firearms record book at home and that it is not proof of a purchase. It's only a record of my firearms. He disagreed. He then told me that the vendor would refund my money if not satisfied. #4. I returned to the vendor and asked him again if he would please give me a receipt. He said give me the gun. I did and then he gave me a full refund in cash. When I asked for the form that I filled out, he refused. When I asked if I could at least see the form, he refused. That may be his right but given the circumstances, I don't trust him. Before I left the show, I saw the promoter with a Berea cop talking to the vendor. When they left the building I approached them and spoke to the promoter. He told me that he believes the personal firearms record pamphlet is proof of a purchase. I disagreed. This makes no sense to me at all.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

I would call the police (local, ATF, Whatever) and record the situation for future problems. While some may think that this isn't to big a deal what about this:

If this guy sold the rifles all day long with no receipts, he would have to know someone would demand one and retrun their gun. That gun was sold to that person and checked out of his inventory. When he refunds the money to the buyer he now has a rifle the is more valuabe to his buddy who cannot legally buy the weapon until now when it's been officially sold to you sold to someone else. 

Seems like a great scheme to sell the guns illegally after they were legally sold to someone, which he has proof of, then "unofficially" returned. I say unofficially returned because we don't know that there was any proof of the return in HIS records!

Get this squared away now or you may severely regret this later! Goodluck.



Mr. A

(2013)
Bass: 0
catfish: 0
bluegill: 0
Other: 0


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

I would also write the manufacturer of the AR and let them know the FFL refused to provide a bill of sale even though it was needed for warranty and let them know the purchase price you had paid...that way if it was over the $$ what the FFL was allowed to charge, they may have some additional explaining to the manufacturer...

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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Misdirection said:


> I would also write the manufacturer of the AR and let them know the FFL refused to provide a bill of sale even though it was needed for warranty and let them know the purchase price you had paid...that way if it was over the $$ what the FFL was allowed to charge, they may have some additional explaining to the manufacturer...
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Good idea. Thanks!


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

So, any outcome here?

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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Misdirection said:


> So, any outcome here?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


To date, nothing has happened. The ATF took 2 days to figure out just what field office I should report to. Turned out to be the Youngstown, Ohio office. Called and spoke to an agent. He said that he would look into the complaint and call me back in a couple days. Never did. Gave the agent 2 weeks and still no response. On January 29, I wrote a detailed 2 page letter to the ATF Youngstown, office. To date, no response. I also wrote a letter to Armalite on January 20, no response. The ATF in Columbus did tell me that he had to keep the 4473 form that I filled out. But when I returned the rifle the owner tore up a form, told me it was mine, refused to let me see it.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Just an update. I still have not received a response from Armalite or the ATF. Doesn't look like I'll get one. Maybe my registered rifle is in the hands of the Mexican drug cartel by now.


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## tadluvadd (Feb 19, 2012)

montagc said:


> If your worried about it, call the ATF. They will audit the guy. Either it will be shown logged out then back in in his bound book, or it won't. If it is, you're golden. If not, seller has some 'splaining to do.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


fyi the gun itself isent reg.to you. never was. its regist. to the ffl dealer.the call the dealer made was only a background ck.if you call the atf they can and will not do anything,and that paper can not be given to u or destroyed.the ffl dealer keeps it.had the same thing happen to me,except it was a return gun to me the ffl dealer.any dealer would face prison time if he resells it without filling out another paper.dont think he will risk it.the atf dont just give away ffl lic.to any body.


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## kingnuke32 (Jan 14, 2009)

The firearm is not registered to you, never was, firearm registration is illegal in ohio and PA as of now.The FFL should still have the 4473 but if he doesn't and you have no proof of sale and he never recorded it in his bound book, does a tree that falls in the woods make a noise? I suspect you will hear nothing and nothing will come of this. 


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

tadluvadd said:


> fyi the gun itself isent reg.to you. never was. its regist. to the ffl dealer.the call the dealer made was only a background ck.if you call the atf they can and will not do anything,and that paper can not be given to u or destroyed.the ffl dealer keeps it.had the same thing happen to me,except it was a return gun to me the ffl dealer.any dealer would face prison time if he resells it without filling out another paper.dont think he will risk it.the atf dont just give away ffl lic.to any body.


The dealer ripped up a 4377 form in front of me and told me it was mine. He refused to show it to me. If it was my 4377 form, as you said he is not allowed to do that.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

kingnuke32 said:


> The firearm is not registered to you, never was, firearm registration is illegal in ohio and PA as of now.The FFL should still have the 4473 but if he doesn't and you have no proof of sale and he never recorded it in his bound book, does a tree that falls in the woods make a noise? I suspect you will hear nothing and nothing will come of this.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


I hope you're right. I hope nothing comes of this. But the FFL is required to have the 4473 form I filled out. The form may have been destroyed. I was told that is illegal. The ATF could at least tell me if everything is right.


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## tadluvadd (Feb 19, 2012)

Agitation Free said:


> The dealer ripped up a 4377 form in front of me and told me it was mine. He refused to show it to me. If it was my 4377 form, as you said he is not allowed to do that.


no he is not allowed to do that.that gun was technically sold to you.even though it was for 3 mins or 3 hrs. had you not left the table or his sight,he could have just wrote firearm not trans.but he would have still had to keep it for his records in case of a audit.but since you walked away,he MUST KEEP THAT DOCUMENT ON FILE as being sold. then re log the gun as being received from you to sell it once more.guys,all that form is---its a record (for the ATF) of a background ck for each person buying and selling a firearm.it also is a record of transferring each firearm.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

tadluvadd said:


> no he is not allowed to do that.that gun was technically sold to you.even though it was for 3 mins or 3 hrs. had you not left the table or his sight,he could have just wrote firearm not trans.but he would have still had to keep it for his records in case of a audit.but since you walked away,he MUST KEEP THAT DOCUMENT ON FILE as being sold. then re log the gun as being received from you to sell it once more.guys,all that form is---its a record (for the ATF) of a background ck for each person buying and selling a firearm.it also is a record of transferring each firearm.


Yep. This is what an ATF officer in Columbus told me in January. That's why I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything.


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## tadluvadd (Feb 19, 2012)

Agitation Free said:


> Yep. This is what an ATF officer in Columbus told me in January. That's why I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything.


you wouldent hear anything,its just that ffl dealer would receive more audits from the ATF


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Seriously tadluvadd, it does sound to me like you know what you're talking about. Do you or did you ever hold an FFL? Because what puzzles me is that an agent in the Youngstown office verbally told me that he would investigate the matter and return an answer to me. That was in January as well.


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## tadluvadd (Feb 19, 2012)

I dont have my own FFL. but its my responsibility to oversee all the firearm sales where i work. I have to do our own monthly audits,and look at every 4473.i have attended classes held by the ATF and been trained by THEM on what and what not to do when selling,and receiving firearms.I also have over 15yrs experience on this and have ran into just about everything you can imagine. that said,it surprises me the agent told you he or she would get back with you on a FFL vendor.usually they dont work that way on this type of situation. I will tell you the ATF randomly does audits and i's have to be dotted and t's have to be crossed literally.if things arent in order,fines can be given and more audits follow. being that he tore up the paper,it would not affect you,only him.as it stands,the paper trail shows he never sold the firearm,when in fact he did.it also says he received the gun from someone other then you.when in fact he last received it from you when you returned it.bottom line--- you dont have anything to worry about,but he might.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

I'll take your advise and just put it behind me. Thanks tadluvadd for all the info. :good:


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

I think you did all you could do Ag Free. Hope you kept copies of all the letters you sent. The receipt issue seems strange. When I go to the grocery store and buy so much as a loaf of bread, I get a receipt!


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