# knot issues



## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

so i am new to fly fishing this year. ive always been a bass guy using baitcasters and such, but thought it would be fun to catch some on a fly rod. only problem is my knots keep breaking. i am using a nail knot of 20 lb test with a loop on it directly to my floating line. from there i am looping 8 lb floro leader to the fly. every time i get a bass to hit the poppers ive been throwing my line snaps in the 8 lb leader loop. have caught gills, creek chubs, and smallies with the this same setup. i dont know what is going on and its not like the largemouths have been that big. Please give me some suggestions on what i could possibly be doing wrong, or some better knot combos that wont break when a 12 inch largey bites my popper. any info would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

I have to say that 20 # is to light to turn over flies so it will break easily. It reminds me of just like myself years ago until I started using something like 35# or heavier saltwater grade mono, depending the flies and weight. I use 55#+ on my 9 and 10 wt. rods.


----------



## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

I've never had trouble turning over flies with 20#.

But, more to the point, what sort of knot are you using to make the loop in the 8 lb that keeps breaking?

If you double the line over, then make a surgeon's knot (double overhand), your fly should break off before your leader breaks, every time.


----------



## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

I am assuming he is using it for the leader butt.


----------



## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

using a surgeons knot. thats what the guy at bass pro said to use. sounds like it is a decent knot, just dont understand why it keeps breaking. i mean the main reason i bought the fly rod was to steelhead fish with it. cant imagine it would hold for them if smallish bass are breaking it. maybe im not tying it right, i dont know.


----------



## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

I use the the double sturgeon knot for my muskies fishing so yea it got to be something you are doing. Are you doubling the loop through or once through? I would have to think the suspect could be bad mono also.


----------



## Intracoastal (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't know if others do this, but when I tie perfection loops or nail knots, I like to have some head cement or Loon's UV Knot Sense handy to seal the knots. Maybe it's overkill, but my superstition has the best of me.


----------



## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

If your surgeon's knot is breaking, you're probably not tying them right. You should be able to join 50 lb. to 10 lb. & have it hold. Make sure you are doing two overhand loops & wetting the knot before drawing it tight, then "set" it by pulling the two different line diameters away from one another.



Also make sure you are using quality leader/tippet material, as standard mono & fluoro will sometimes fail when it shouldn't.


----------



## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Also, just starting out, these things happen. You'll figure it out after a couple lost fish & it will never happen again.


Now, no matter the tippet or leader size, I make sure my rod will break before the knots do. There is nothing worse than watching a monster fish swim off after snapping your nail knot or surgeon's knot.


----------



## brhoff (Sep 28, 2006)

Research / ask around regarding the floro, knot strength is way different for floro. opposed to mono.

Also, I believe floro can "go bad"..."get brittle".

Find a good floro loop knot, tie it off and then test with some pliers.

Also just try some mono for the but loop and grab a 0x or 2x tapered leader made of mono with a looped end.

I have never used floro for fly fishing and shy away from it based on past experiences from about 10 years ago when the stuff was fickle at best...I am sure improvements have been made but there isn'y any reason to use it for Bass or even Steelhead...not "leader shy species".


----------



## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

fallen513 said:


> Now, no matter the tippet or leader size, I make sure my rod will break before the knots do. There is nothing worse than watching a monster fish swim off after snapping your nail knot or surgeon's knot.



Now _that's_ an interesting perspective!


----------



## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

bag the loops all together, if your rod is a 5 wt then take say 20lb stiff mono like maxima. nail know 3ft to the fly line, then step down, for a popper leader add 2-3ft of 15lb then a tippet of 2-3ft of 10lb. use blood knots to connect the sections, tying you own leaders will not only be stronger but will also cast better and be more accurate as the fly will actually turn over and go where you want it too.


----------



## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Andrew Stoehr said:


> Now _that's_ an interesting perspective!






Perhaps a slight exaggeration but it's taken me very little time to figure out that your knots need to be right & your leader & tippet need to be high quality material if you want to land big fish. 

Carp & the striped ones... you know what I'm talkin' about.


----------



## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

The idea that a stiff leader butt works better is a myth. People think that a stiff leader "transfers energy" better, but in fact this is not true. A stiff leader actually robs momentum. The reason that a leader that tapers down from heavy leader material to lighter material casts well is _not_ because the heavier stuff is stiffer, but rather because it has _greater mass_. This conserves the momentum of the cast. 

As for whether you use loops or not, that's entirely up to you. But if done properly, a loop to loop connection to join fly line to leader butt will be strong, smooth, and make changing leaders very easy. My own personal preference is for a braided mono loop on the fly line (which I build and install myself...none of those little heat shrink tubing things!), then my heavy leader butt as a non-slip mono loop knot. I then typically build the rest of my leader with blood knots or surgeons knots. For sinking line fishing or any thing that does not require accurate casting, or with flies like clousers that turn themselves over, I will often simply use a straight level leader, i.e. no taper at all. I decided what test I want (10, 15, 25, whatever), and that's the entire leader.


I agree with the others who suggest that you may not be tying the surgeon's properly. One thing that is crucial is that as you tighten the knot, the two loops of different leader material must tighten at exactly the same rate if you're to get a nicely seated knot. If you accidentally tighten one part a bit more than the other part, the knot will not seat properly.


----------



## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

fallen513 said:


> Perhaps a slight exaggeration but it's taken me very little time to figure out that your knots need to be right & your leader & tippet need to be high quality material if you want to land big fish.
> 
> Carp & the striped ones... you know what I'm talkin' about.


I agree that it's heart-breaking to lose a big fish because your knot failed. I guess whether it's worse than breaking the rod depends on how much you spent on the rod, how much you spent on the leader material, or how much money you have!

My rods are mostly pretty cheap...but my leaders are still a bit cheaper! 

We virtually never lose stripers or bluefish here because of knot failure because we fish very heavy leaders. We land them, or they come unhooked. Even a poorly tied knot in 25 lb test mono is strong!

But I've busted off a lot of carp lately since I still haven't quite learned how much pressure I can put on 6 or 8 lb test...and because I will freely admit my knots aren't always perfect! 

It's sort of like driving 75 mph on the interstate, then getting off a ramp and driving through a small town...takes you a bit of time to remember to ease up!


----------



## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Definitely. I'm still trying to finesse some big carp on 2X...and it's hard to tell if it was a poor knot (unlikely at this point) or just flat out too big of a fish. 

My striper setup consists of a 450 grain full, fast sinking tungsten coated 50 lb mono core fly line, which I strip the last couple inches of rubberized tungsten from & use a clinch knot to attach it to a small swivel... which attaches to a 3' length of 25 lb. tippet using another clinch knot. Clinch knot to the fly. Hook to lip. Game over.

 

Carp it's a nail knot from the fly line to the 4-5' tapered leader (stiff), surgeon's knot attaches another 4 or 5' of the 25 lb & another surgeon's knot for the 2 or 3' tippet, which I am varying but think 2x, 11.5 lb test is the best suited. 

I'm approaching 10 carp on the fly, all break offs have been poor knots except for one fat boy who taught me a lesson about how to set the hook!


----------



## roliel (Apr 30, 2010)

If you want to stop your tippet from breaking off, you could always tie really crappy knots on your flies.


----------



## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I just learned the blood knot (today, after reading this thread), which is basically attaching one line with a clinch knot to another line with a clinch knot.

I devised my own method of tying it, wrapping one line around the other 4 to 6 times, insert your finger, wrap it an equal amount on the other side, then insert the two tag ends through the hole your finger created... wet & draw tight.


I don't know if it will replace my surgeon knots, but it's a kick ass knot!


----------



## wabi (Jun 14, 2008)

I have read the  blood knot  is not good when the diameters of the lines being joined vary by more than a few thousandths (.003) of an inch. No idea if it's really true, but I use a  surgeon's knot  since I read that statement and have had no trouble with breakage at the knot.

For a loop I use the perfection loop  perfection loop  and have never had problems with this loop.

I use a loop to loop connection of leader to fly line (if the fly line doesn't have a loop I tie on a short section of heavy mono using a  nail knot  then tie a perfection loop in the mono).
I then use a loop to loop connection of tippet to leader (I use furled leaders with loops at both ends). If I want additional taper at the tippet end I use a surgeons knot to step down the tippet. 

I use a furled leader [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbcVaEe3RIs&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Building Furled Leaders Without Jigs or Tools[/nomedia] I make out of 8# co-polymer on my 3 wt, then step down the tippet from 3X to 6X for #14 - #20 flies for small species (sunfish & crappies). I find a 5' furled leader, 12" 3X, 24" 6X a good combination for my 6'6" 3 wt rods. For my 6wt rods I like a 6' furled leader of the same 8# co-polymer and a 36" 4X or 5X tippet with no step-down.

My casting isn't exactly perfection, but those combinations cover up a lot of errors in my presentation. 

BTW - I used the 3wt at the local lake to catch several bluegill yesterday evening and they were easily fooled with my presentation. 
Not one break-off either!............. well, at least on a fish - I did have a break-off on a large rock I hooked on the bank, but it was in the middle of the 6X section of tippet.


----------



## Whaler (Nov 16, 2004)

I think you are using bad line.


----------



## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

IMO if the diameters of lines vary very much then you probably shouldn't join em  that said, a double clinch knot (basically a blood knot with the line doubled up on each side like it's an improved clinch) does fine for a large diameter variance.

Personally I keep the variance as low as I can, because that allows for less of a hinging effect in the leader and it lays out prettier. Then again, I did learn to cast with a level leader of 4 lb test floro. Not so fun.


----------



## flytyer (Jan 3, 2005)

thistubesforu said:


> every time i get a bass to hit the poppers ive been throwing my line snaps in the 8 lb leader loop.


You say it's breaking at the knot all the time?
Make sure you wet the knot before you seat it! Floro heats up more from friction then mono when being drawn tight, thusly weakening your knot. Try wetting the knot as you seat it tight. If that doesn't help, you probably have some old bad floro.


----------



## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

thanks for the info guys. think ill try some 12 lb. mono and if i still have issues ill go to the blood knot. one that ive been tying for years now. also i hadnt been wetting my surgeons dont know why i wet every other knot i tie. again thanks.


----------

