# The BETTER straight wall rifle cartridge, for OHIO?



## Doboy

I think I NEED another toy, so I'm looking for opinions.?

I have an Encore,,,,, so I COULD buy a 45-70 barrel for it? (+- $250)
OR
I COULD buy a new Savage 450 Bushmaster, 3 shot mag? ( IDN,,, about $450ish?)
OR
I COULD go with a new .444 rifle? (I haven't spent time looking at those options yet.)


So, I checked out the ammo availability, & about a dozen reload specs,,, they are very very close,,,,, say with the 250-300grn bullet ballistics.?
I love to reload, so i could crank 'em up to 'fit' the modern barrels.

A whole NEW 3-shot rifle seems like the best route to go ;>),,,, 

What do you guys think about these 3 calibers?


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## 1basshunter

I have a 444 in a Marlin Lever action it is a blast to Shoot and will take down any game in North America easily...a 444 Is basically a neck down 45-70 Witch is the gun most guides in Alaska use


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## Jtom

Hmmm....new toys are always fun

I have the 45/70 in a lever gun and my son has the Bushmaster in both the Ruger American and AR platform. 

Deer don't seem to realize the difference, all have fallen dead shortly after being shot. My son took a frontal shot last year on a buck - hit it in the white patch just under the chin and had a pass thru on the left rear quarter breaking the pelvis on the way out - traveled 20 yds. His side shots have had similar results. 

The 45/70 has more loading variety in bullet weight if that is an issue...are you gonna be hunting Ursus Horriblus? I find the Hornady Leverevolution in 325 grain shoot very well and are quite effective on deer. 

Where I notice the difference is in recoil, the 45/70 and 444 can be thumpers, I have found the Bushmaster to be comfortable. The Henry and Marlins are probably 2 pounds heavier than the Ruger American. You will like the way the American feels in your hands, plus it has a tang safety and shoots really well for a 16" barrel. 

Bottom line, buy all 3, momma won't care!


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## 27482

Doboy said:


> I think I NEED another toy, so I'm looking for opinions.?
> 
> I have an Encore,,,,, so I COULD buy a 45-70 barrel for it? (+- $250)
> OR
> I COULD buy a new Savage 450 Bushmaster, 3 shot mag? ( IDN,,, about $450ish?)
> OR
> I COULD go with a new .444 rifle? (I haven't spent time looking at those options yet.)
> 
> 
> So, I checked out the ammo availability, & about a dozen reload specs,,, they are very very close,,,,, say with the 250-300grn bullet ballistics.?
> I love to reload, so i could crank 'em up to 'fit' the modern barrels.
> 
> A whole NEW 3-shot rifle seems like the best route to go ;>),,,,
> 
> What do you guys think about these 3 calibers?


All good choices! But the gist of your post was for a new 'toy.' First question that comes to mind is how many barrels already owned for the Encore? If multiple, it's just adding a new barrel.

Buying a complete rifle, now that'd be a new toy! Just sayin! 


.444 in the Marlins are going for around $520


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## Drm50

I have a 44mg, 45/70 & 375win. I'm into the 375w in Ruger #3, my Bro with Contender Carbine.
We are shooting spitzer bullets intended for 375H&H and getting outstanding accuracy with 235gr.
If I didn't already have these rifles I would look into the Ruger 450BM. A slick little rifle, the only
drawback for me is it doesn't have iron sights. If you shoot a scope this is not a problem. I have 
had the 45/70 for over 40yrs, like the 444 I think a bit much for deer. The 44mg will do in the thick
stuff but a handicap if you get a chance at long shot. I figured 375w is best for range and more than enough for deer. I had Marlin 375w but traded it for #3 to shoot pointed bullets at Max vel.
Ammo is the stickler with 375w, if you don't load it's a poor choice. Win is making limited run and
Starline just announced they are making brass and its on the market.


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## Muddy

I have a CVA single shot in .444 Marlin. I named it the “Hammer”. It kills deer dead in their tracks. I really like it. It has some kick to it though. I just won a Ruger American in 450 bushmaster with a 22” barrel in a raffle that I’m going to try out this year.


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## Drm50

There is no question that 45/70, 444, 450BM and even the 375W will kill a deer deader than a door
nail. I know the DNR has to draw a line some where but all these calibres are over gunned for deer.
I've hunted deer out of state since I was a kid and owned all these big bore LV rifles at one time. I
never carried one deer hunting. Used them for mostly target and some varmit shooting. Out of state I always took 2 rifles. A 30/30-35R class rifle and a 308-270 type rifle. One for woods and one for open areas. I can see why they don't want HV rifles that can shoot into the next town but
I wish they would legalize the old classic deer cartridges. The new ammo for the legal calibres or
handloads can be jacked up to exceed cartridges such as 30/30. None of this matters much to still
hunters but if you are a "jump" hunter a lot of these big bores are kinda piggy and not much of
natural pointers. That's why I would by the Ruger American 450BM, it's a natural pointer for shooting running game.


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## Gillion

Got a cva 44 mag last year...bought a cva .450bm this year. Shooters!!!!!!


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## ezbite

I've got a 45/70 bergara barrel for my encore prohunter and that thing is a tack driver, she'll thump you for sure, but I'm kicking around getting a muzzle break next spring. a follow up shot (reloading) is very quick to if you have a cartridge holder on the stock and practice a bit. that's the route I'd go.


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## fastwater

^^^Thought about doing the same as far as a different( deer legal)bbl for the pro hunter. Just wasn't sure which cal.
Been shooting decent M.O.D. out to 200yds with the 50cal bbl so with the exception of the quicker second shot aspect, have decided to just stick with the 50.
Think if I just wanted a new toy, it would be the Ruger American Bushmaster 450.


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## Smitty82

Henry Big Boy 44 mag.


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## Doboy

Smitty82 said:


> Henry Big Boy 44 mag.



Ya, seen that,,, considered that too,,,,,
but now you have me back at using my Ruger Blackhawk!


*
Quote Jtom;
Where I notice the difference is in recoil, the 45/70 and 444 can be thumpers, I have found the Bushmaster to be comfortable.*

Now, I'm REALLY leaning towards that Bushmaster. & it Sounds like it might be a better 'fit' for my 130# daughter!? lol,,,, & It would be a cool X-mas present for her too,,,,, right?
or she can get it, IF I ever decided to pass it down,,, or she can pry it from my COLD DEAD HANDS!!! ;>)

(I still have black bear on my bucket list too)



Anyway,,,
*Thompson center
fish_fear_me;*
I have 3 barrels for my TC,,,,, smoke pole & varmit stuff.

I found quite a few Encore 45/70 barrels on Gunbroker.com,,, there's a camo deal, pictured with a muzzle brake that almost made me pull out my wallet. (I think the picture with that price is a mistake.)









maybe I should do a search for an Encore Bushmaster,,,, do they even make 'em? I think not.
There is a bunch of customs on Ebay,,,, $450e. But That price takes me back to another rifle. :>)

THANKS Guys

I'll report back, if/when I pull the plug!


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## fastwater

Doboy said:


> maybe I should do a search for an Encore Bushmaster,,,, do they even make 'em? I think not.


I don't think anyone is making the 450BM bbl for the Encore...yet.
Which with the way the cal. has taken off, most likely will soon come and if that happens, I may just get one myself. Too...the case length of the 450BM is legal for use in lower Mich. as well as PA if someone had the interest to go there and hunt.
Don't think the 45/70 meets those two states 'case length' requirements. May be wrong but I think it may be to long.
Far as the recoil on the 45/70, if you reload, the 45/70 can be loaded from mild to wild. Something I don't think can be done with the 450BM.

Forgot to add that if going with the 450BM and are going to reload, you can purchase the 45cal .452 projectiles in bulk fairly reasonable. You can then match those same projectiles up with the proper sabot and plink with them out of your 50cal. inline. This is a much more economical way to shoot your inline on a regular basis rather than buying pre-packaged inline bullet/sabot combos.


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## Drm50

Guys with the Contender type carbines around here are getting into .460 S&W. One guy has a #1
Ruger custom in 460. The 45/70, 38/55 are Black Powder cartridges and 375w is cloned off 38/55
all have more case volume than necessary for Smokeless. They look powerful because they are so
big. Actually some of the magnum pistol cartridges are better designed and shooting 200-250gr
bullets out of carbines and rifles make them good choice for Ohio deer.


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## fireline

Buy a JM Marlin 1895 45 70 rifle or guide gun, you can load it up or down as needed, should be able to find one in the $500-600 range, I would stay away from the Remington made Marlin also known as a Remlin


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## Gill

Picked up the cva v2 scout in 45-70. Stainless barrel. Recoil isn't that bad. Hit a bullseye the size of a nickel at 100 yds. Federal power shok 300 grain factory loads, round nose soft point. $350.


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## Lundy

I have multiple single shot H&R’s in 357 Max and .444. They are all extremely accurate and the deer seldom even take a single step


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## Jtom

Let me qualify the comment I made concerning recoil of the 45/70 & 444; if shooting multiple times...> 10 with full power hunting loads......out of Marlin Guide gun it hits ya. However, as we know you don't feel the recoil when hunting. So, just don't your have daughter site in the 45/70 or the 444. The Ruger American 450 has a muzzle brake which helps quite a bit. The Ruger feels like a 20 gauge low brass out of a standard weight pump.


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## Doboy

Gill said:


> Picked up the cva v2 scout in 45-70. Stainless barrel. Recoil isn't that bad. Hit a bullseye the size of a nickel at 100 yds. Federal power shok 300 grain factory loads, round nose soft point. $350.


I was just looking at that,,,, FinFF has a sale price in their flyer.???????????
Thanks


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## Doboy

Lundy said:


> I have multiple single shot H&R’s in 357 Max and .444. They are all extremely accurate and the deer seldom even take a single step



Thanks,,,, that's exactly 'the opinions' that I was searching for. (with proper shot placement ;>)

One more thing,,,,, (my reloading books are too old & need updated!) I need to see the case specs on 450BM & .444 cases,,, compared to .45 LC & .44 Mag.)
The 450 BM case is totally different from a .45LC,,,, BUT is the .444 & .44MAG compatible? Do they both have the same case ID & OD, & head specs?


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## gumbygold

I have a Remlin that is absolutely fine. Even though I have the 45/70 I'm still thinking about the .450 Ruger just for another toy.


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## gumbygold

error: repost


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## Lundy

I can't help you with your reloading questions, I just shoot them.

The reason I settled on the .444 after already having two of the .357 Maximums was that I wanted a point and shoot 200 yd gun. The .357 Max is a 150 yard point and shoot, with a 180 gr Barnes at 2350 FPS, sub MOA accuracy, super nice guns with almost no felt recoil and do very quick work on deer. When I was searching for a little more get up and go for some areas I hunt I compared the published ballistics on the other legal calibers. To me, the .444 was the easy and obvious choice when looking at 200 yd performance. The gun has not disappointed me in any way when shooting the Hornady 265 gr Superformance loads. I did not like nor did I get the performance (accuracy or velocity) I wanted from the Leverevolution. I must tell you however I only shot one deer with the .444 2 years ago before I quit deer hunting. A mature buck at 170 yds ready to enter a very think and almost impossible area to get him out of if he ended up in it. I moved the crosshair forward and up a little from my normal shot location to a shoulder shot and he never took a step.

The 357 Max is certainly capable with those ballistics at more than 150 yds, just as the .444 is capable at more than 200 yds but those yardages are a no brainer point and shoot with a zero of a little more than 100 yds, no guessing, no holdover, just pull the trigger.

Any of the calibers are better than the shotguns as you know, what ever you pick I'm sure will be fun and effective. For me I just could not get excited about the 45-70. or 44 mag. The 450 bushmaster didn't exist yet commercially and I don't reload so the .375 wasn't an option or I would have loved to get one of those also.


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## Yakphisher

Last I checked the 450BM dies were around $75-80 and only Hornady had them with Lees being impossible to find. 45-70 dies are easy to find.


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## Muddy

Lundy said:


> I can't help you with your reloading questions, I just shoot them.
> 
> The reason I settled on the .444 after already having two of the .357 Maximums was that I wanted a point and shoot 200 yd gun. The .357 Max is a 150 yard point and shoot, with a 180 gr Barnes at 2350 FPS, sub MOA accuracy, super nice guns with almost no felt recoil and do very quick work on deer. When I was searching for a little more get up and go for some areas I hunt I compared the published ballistics on the other legal calibers. To me, the .444 was the easy and obvious choice when looking at 200 yd performance. The gun has not disappointed me in any way when shooting the Hornady 265 gr Superformance loads. I did not like nor did I get the performance (accuracy or velocity) I wanted from the Leverevolution. I must tell you however I only shot one deer with the .444 2 years ago before I quit deer hunting. A mature buck at 170 yds ready to enter a very think and almost impossible area to get him out of if he ended up in it. I moved the crosshair forward and up a little from my normal shot location to a shoulder shot and he never took a step.
> 
> The 357 Max is certainly capable with those ballistics at more than 150 yds, just as the .444 is capable at more than 200 yds but those yardages are a no brainer point and shoot with a zero of a little more than 100 yds, no guessing, no holdover, just pull the trigger.
> 
> Any of the calibers are better than the shotguns as you know, what ever you pick I'm sure will be fun and effective. For me I just could not get excited about the 45-70. or 44 mag. The 450 bushmaster didn't exist yet commercially and I don't reload so the .375 wasn't an option or I would have loved to get one of those also.


The 444 Hornady Superperformance 265 grain flat nose is flat out awesome round. I’ve killed 10 or 12 deer with it. None of them took a step. It kills deer with authority and is the flattest shooting option that we have with factory loads.


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## mike hunt

450 Marlin is a good round, especially in a model seven




























bolt action. You can get a 250gn slug to go close to 3000fps, that's hot.


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## 0utwest

That's 2 Great looking Guns You got there mike hunt ! !


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## mike hunt

Thanks


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## Drm50

I've only shot one 357max rifle. I sighted in a Savage 24 in 357max/ 3"-20g for a guy. I was impressed with accuracy of it. It did 11/2" at 100yds, even with a terrible trigger. I'm not into TC
Contenders but I'm sure barrels are available in 357max. My brother is using a TC carbine in 375W
with 2x7 scope, shoots well but let's you know it's there. To benifit from the 45/70, 444 and 375W
you have to be running 2000fps or better. This becomes a problem if you are trying to use light bullets to get the velocity. Light bullets for the big bores don't shoot that well at longer ranges, if there is one I haven't found it yet.


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## Lundy

0utwest said:


> That's 2 Great looking Guns You got there mike hunt ! !


X 2 I love the wood stock bolt action


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## MagicMarker

I've used a 450 marlin lever gun with 18in ported barrel last couple years and can hit pie plate 200yds which is fine with me. It kicks less than my 444 and 45/70. All the deer I've shot with it dropped


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## Dovans

Vance's has nice sale on 450's.... I am not a hunter, but even I am thinking of getting one.


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## Bwise

Purchased a single shot .444 last year. I did not get a chance to shoot a deer with it, but my wife shot a 24.5” wide buck with it last year at 241 yds. He went maybe 25 yds after the shot. I hunt a lot of open fields and to me the .444 was the way to go. I too shoot the Hornady Superformance.


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## Drm50

I have never been into extra barrels for anything. I always opt for another gun. My Bro & a couple
buddys are into barrels for TCs. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag but normally you will take a beating when or if you decide to off them. I haven't loaded any of the new 45 cal cartridges.
It just hit me from reading another post about buying .452 bullets, isn't bore on these rifles .458 ?
The Brits had a weapon made from a Enfield that was modified to 45acp. It was silenced and fired from Thompson mags. Thompson barrels were used. A few years ago guys were building look alikes
and were looking for 452" barrels that were a legal length and weren't having much luck. When I first started loading for 45Colt back in 60s, I bought a set of used RCBS dies at a show. I was having trouble with seating bullets. I came to find my dies were older and were built for .454" bullets. I think after WW2 the American 45 cals were standardized at 452 in both revolvers and auto pistols. A 452 bullet would shoot lousy out of a 458 barrel. A couple thousandths over dia may
improve accuracy but a under bore bullet never does.


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## Muddy

The 444 is .429, the 450 Bushmaster is.452, and the 45-70 is.458.


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## ezbite

All I can add is I saw what the 45/70 did to bobk deer. Devistating.. I've seen a lot of hearts with a lot of holes.. this one was just mush peeled open.


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## Misdirection

I have a 45-70 and shoot the Hornandy Leverevolution 325 grain bullets. I've shot a couple of deer with it and none of them did anything more than blink before they hit the ground.

It's also my PA bear gun. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Morrowtucky Mike

Might check out the Ruger #1 in .460 s&w. I know what the caliber is capable of in a revolver so could just imagine fired from a 24” barrel. And IMO you just can’t beat the Ruger #1 except for the cost.


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## Junebug2320

Henry 45/70 w Skinner peep site. Pass thru took bottom of the heart out.. Seventy-five yards. Hornady Levrolution 325gr


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eyecat

mike hunt said:


> 450 Marlin is a good round, especially in a model seven
> View attachment 281211
> View attachment 281213
> View attachment 281215
> View attachment 281215
> bolt action. You can get a 250gn slug to go close to 3000fps, that's hot.


Hey what are the guns shown in your pic? I have a custom 450 BM made on Model 7 action and it looks a lot like your green stocked one.


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## eyecat

Drm50 said:


> There is no question that 45/70, 444, 450BM and even the 375W will kill a deer deader than a door
> nail. I know the DNR has to draw a line some where but all these calibres are over gunned for deer.
> I've hunted deer out of state since I was a kid and owned all these big bore LV rifles at one time. I
> never carried one deer hunting. Used them for mostly target and some varmit shooting. Out of state I always took 2 rifles. A 30/30-35R class rifle and a 308-270 type rifle. One for woods and one for open areas. I can see why they don't want HV rifles that can shoot into the next town but
> I wish they would legalize the old classic deer cartridges. The new ammo for the legal calibres or
> handloads can be jacked up to exceed cartridges such as 30/30. None of this matters much to still
> hunters but if you are a "jump" hunter a lot of these big bores are kinda piggy and not much of
> natural pointers. That's why I would by the Ruger American 450BM, it's a natural pointer for shooting running game.


We have 4-5 375's in our family, but mostly use 220 grain bullets. I have a TC Contender rifle and a custom Rem 788 bolt action rebarrelled to 375W, so i can shoot pointed bullets in those but never have. You said you shoot the ponted Sieera's, do u mind sharing your load and velocity? Do you get expansion out of the pointed Sierras, they were mostly made for 375 magnum calibers so might have a pretty hard/thick jacket?


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## mike hunt

They're Remington Model sevens chambered in 450 Marlin


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## mike hunt

eyecat said:


> Hey what are the guns shown in your pic? I have a custom 450 BM made on Model 7 action and it looks a lot like your green stocked one.


They're Remington Model sevens chambered in 450 Marlin


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## FISHIN 2

Those look like a necked down bullet, I thought we were talking straight walled cartridge.


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## eyecat

mike hunt said:


> They're Remington Model sevens chambered in 450 Marlin


What gunsmith put them together for you, or did you do it youself?


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## mike hunt

eyecat said:


> What gunsmith put them together for you, or did you do it youself?


The Dresden Gun Company


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## eyecat

Thanks, will check them out.


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