# Record Numbers This Season



## Big Daddy (Apr 6, 2004)

A RECORD NUMBER OF DEER TAKEN DURING

OHIOS 2004-2005 DEER HUNTING SEASON 



COLUMBUS, OH - Ohio hunters have set a new record, taking 217,301 deer during the 2004-2005 hunting season. Additional records were set during the muzzleloader, archery and youth hunting seasons, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife.

Counties reporting the highest number of deer checked during the year were: Tuscarawas - 8,293; Coshocton - 7,055; Licking - 6,610; Washington - 6,110; Guernsey - 6, 028; Harrison - 6, 021; Holmes - 5,930; Athens - 5,915; Muskingum - 5,779; and Jefferson - 5,481.

Ohios deer herd is very important to our state, said Steven A. Gray, chief of the Division of Wildlife. Deer are enjoyed by many Ohioans who hunt deer or simply enjoy seeing these magnificent animals.

From opening day of the deer-archery season in October, Ohio hunters were on a record- setting pace. Young hunters set a new mark in the second year of the states two-day youth deer-gun season with 6,673 deer killed. 

During the four-day statewide muzzleloader season, hunters took a record 27,749 deer. Hunters also exceeded the record for deer taken during the archery season (October 2 to January 31) with 57,198. A total of 125,681 deer was killed during the popular one-week deer gun season. 

A record trophy buck was recognized with Warren County bow hunter Brad Jerman shooting a buck that scored 201 1/8 in the typical (symmetrical antlers) category of the Buckeye Big Bucks Club. Jermans deer tied the score of a buck taken in 1986 in Clark County by William Kontras. 

Deer hunting contributes an estimated $266 million to Ohio's economy each year and helps to support thousands of jobs. Venison is delicious and nutritious meat, low in fat and cholesterol. It is the number one wild game served by hunters in Ohio. Deer hunters also contribute thousands of pounds of venison to organizations that help feed less-fortunate Ohio residents through special programs.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

> Jermans deer tied the score of a buck taken in 1986 in Clark County by William Kontras.


 It looks like Mr. Kontras will get to keep his name in the record book after all. I think originally the Warren County buck was measured at just over the current record. Congratulations to Mr. Jerman and to all who had a successful deer hunting season.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

AWESOME...
I took one new youth hunter out and even though he missed a trophy buck he stood tall and harvested a very fine doe...


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

I think ohio way over estimates the deer herd.I predict the deer kill will be way down this coming hunting season due to the amount of deer killed. I dont mean to sound like a peta member but I really wish they would lower the deer bag limits and bag limits on every animal as far as that gos. I think ohios mad drivers manage the animal population enough. Sorry if this offends you but thats my honest opionin and im sticking to it!


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't think that ohio over estimates the herd at all. I personally think that they underestimate it b/c they use hunting and reported car crashes as one of the main factors of determining how big the herd is. They take no account for the deer that aer paoched during the summer months by spotlighters. Those kids who don't have anything better to do back in the boonies. Also how many hunters kill deer and either not find it or walk up to it and then decide it is too far to drag out. And there are many more crashes than reported. The deer herd has to remain at a little over half the population to remain at the same level. I don't mind the regulations, b/c they did the three deer thing a couple years ago and the deer herd did just fine! Although like most hunters I would like to see more deer while hunting also!


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## AEFISHING (Apr 25, 2004)

I personally felt it was like hunting rabbits this year. The does were everywhere I hunted in Ohio. I didn't see many bucks but a ton of does.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

I think it all depends on where you live and where you hunt deer. Where I live there are WAY too many deer but it is in an urban area with parks everywhere then where I hunt is in the deer rich SE corner of the state. I see alot of deer with the most being last Nov when while driving around for the reason of seeing and counting deer my kids and I counted 78 in a 2 hr drive...
Also ask someone who did not harvest a deer ( may have seen 15 or more ) and he may say the deer population is down then ask someone who did harvest a deer ( only saw 2 all day) and he may say there are plenty of deer around...
Its all a matter of opinion and even though the state takes a guess it is an educated one at that


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

When i said that I think Ohio over estimates the deer herd I meant exactly what you are talking about. They base the deer killed every year by the amount of deer that are CHECKED in. They do not take in consideration of all the deer that are hits by cars, not checked in, not found, poached, ect. 

There have been about 30 deer hit on the road this last month within a few miles of my house. However you can go out in the woods anywhere and not see ANY deer tracks at all. This might seem unbeleiveable to you guys but I would be willing to bet 50% of the deer around here are hit by vehicles let alone all the deer killed by hunting and other reasons. Dont say its not so either because I live right on the corner of highland/clinton county and I can perspnally say for a fact the deer population is way low. Im not saying that the deer population is not overpopulated where you all hunt at but where I hunt at it is very low. If the only reason I hunted was to manage the deer population I would quit hunting. Sorry for venting but I had to get that out. 

ps. I know a guy that shot 9 bucks last year in the same season and got away with it and trust me this happens all over, and I did turn him in.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> If the only reason I hunted was to manage the deer population I would quit hunting


AMEN brother... 
Too many hunters feel the peer pressure to harvest a deer and don't really hunt to enjoy the hunt or being outdoors anymore... 



> ps. I know a guy that shot 9 bucks last year in the same season and got away with it and trust me this happens all over, and I did turn him in.


I hope he got his... Do you know if he was fined or received a summons of some kind?


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

No he did not get fined yet. I dont even think they investigated it yet. I even gave them his exact address. He hunts around the Bainebridge(sp) area in ross county. It seems like they dont have time to investigate all the calls they get. I do hope they catch this skum along with all the other skum poachers out there. They belong behind bars!


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

> Dont say its not so either because I live right on the corner of highland/clinton county and I can perspnally say for a fact the deer population is way low.


No, you can't say that for a fact. It amuses me that people think that they know more about managing deer than biologists. You say more than 30 deer got hit by your house, but the population is LOW? I assume since you say you can't find any tracks, it means in the late season with snow on the ground. That doesn't mean the deer aren't around, but deer change their movements late in the season. They will key in on very specific food sources, and that food apparently isn't where you are. My bean field is empty of deer each evening, but at 2:00 in the afternoon, there will be over 30 in the winter wheat field across the road. If I was looking only on my place, it would look like there's no deer around, but I know better than that. Take some time to learn the habits of the deer, and you'll find them. There is NOT a shortage.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

> ps. I know a guy that shot 9 bucks last year in the same season and got away with it and trust me this happens all over, and I did turn him in.


 I don't blame you for turning him in...regardless of the deer situation in your area. That is a blatant disrespect for the law and should be punished.

I used to subscribe to the same beliefs that Traphunter has on the effect on the deer herd. When they first started allowing two deer in our area I thought, "Oh no, here goes the population!" Then they went up to three and I figured that would all but eliminate quality hunting. But the truth of the matter in my area is that despite these increases in bag limits the deer herd seems to be thriving as good as ever. I am sure like Clyde said it largely depends on the area that you live in. Some areas get hunted harder and some can not due to access limitations. It is not an exact science and we will never see the ODNR satisfy everyone in all areas. But I think that if they were overlooking key factors in counting deer herd resulting in an overestimation, then eventually we would start seeing a downfall in the numbers that they can put their hands on and that is the deer killed in season. The fact is though that these numbers continue to stay pretty high.

Let me restate that I am not questioning that Traphunter is seeing less deer in his area. Perhaps there are specials factors directly related to this (poaching, high hunter/deer ratio,etc.). But when you mention 30 deer killed on the roads in the last month, that suggests to me that in some areas down there the deer density must be pretty high. I have to go a LONG time before I can count 30 road kills around here and as I said we have a very healthy deer population.


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## beatsworkin (Apr 12, 2004)

When I was in college majoring in wildlife biology, several of the grad students helped the state do population estimates in the spring. They would check roads for tracks crossing the roads. A formula was used to come up with a rough estimate of deer density. By design, the estimate was always on the conservative side. I think Ohio has done a tremendous job in managing our deer herd, especially when you compare ourselves to surrounding states. We consistently produce bucks on par or better than anywhere on the continent and we do it with dense human development and populations. 

That does not mean that every corner of the state is crawling with deer, but overall we have a tremendous population. The state recognized this by the different zones. 
I'm glad to hear you turned the crook in....


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

> No, you can't say that for a fact. It amuses me that people think that they know more about managing deer than biologists.


M. Magis, how many times have you hunted in the area I mentioned? I would guess none. It amuses me that people can act like they know all about an area they have probably not hunted before. And when did I ever say I know more about managing deer then the biologists do? Maybe if you come down here and hunt your self you might change your mind.



> Take some time to learn the habits of the deer, and you'll find them. There is NOT a shortage.


Buddy I do know the habits of deer. Dont get me wrong im not an expert, but I know alot about deer and deer habits, probably just as much as you do. That offends me you would act like I dont know what im talking about. Thats the way I took it at least. I do my homework just like everyone else does and it paid off for me big time last november with my biggest buck ever so far. And I truely belieive you when you say there is not a shortage of deer in your area. I would also be willing to say you hunt in eastern ohio. But i can tell you now there there IS a shortage of deer in my area. 

Im done!


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

I tell you whta I'd like to see.... Ohio putting a min point on the Buck kills. I think most states that have this its like 8 points or something. I think we have a ton of doe, but I didnt see as mnay bucks this year as usual.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

I know what you mean when you say with 30 der hit within a few miles that makes it seems like the deer population would be high. For some reason it seems like the deer are attracted to the roads around here. Maybe they have been licking salt off them? Anyhow it seems like the only deer I see around here are ones that are dead.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

Lets not jump on each other here







and try to remember sometimes what we type is not exactly what we are trying to say or that we're saying something with as few words as we can simply because we can't type or spell with the best of them... I know we may stoke some numbers to move a point towards our way of thinking but we're really all after the same ending just taking a diff route to get there...
I will wear out my two fingers on this one topic alone let alone kill a few brain cells too... 
I am sorry if I have led anyone to think I am not taking what they have said here to heart







... 
Deer hunting and harvest is a topic that creates strong feelings and for obvious reasons we all love a great deer herd and we love to harvest trophy deer whether a huge mountable buck or a doe for the freezer...

I like this comment which is one we all missed


> That does not mean that every corner of the state is crawling with deer, but overall we have a tremendous population. The state recognized this by the different zones


That really sums up what the state has done to make it as possible as it can to have the best hunting in each zone as there is humanly possible with the resources available...
I know to have Sunday hunting the state had to promise the farmers bureau that they would increase deer harvest and also turn up the heat on tresspassing which are two of the most important issues facing farmers besides their obvious workload... Deer harvest will never satisfy everyone but if there is a common ground where the numbers come close then their doing something right... At least in the areas I frequent...


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

H2O Mellon,
I don't believe I saw as many bucks as usual this year either at least on my place. And all of the bucks were medium to small. Most years i have at least one or two dandies around. I am hoping it is just back luck for me and that it will change this upcoming year.

I would not be opposed to a more strict limitation on the bucks taken. But I guess I don't know enough about how the other states do this to base my opinion. I mean if it is an 8 point limit or whatever, what do they do when people miscount or misjudge? Because we all know it is going to happen expecially during gun season. I know a lot of guys will shoot one if they feel it is anything more than a forkhorn or basket. That takes in an awful lot of scenarios.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Hey Clyde! Don't count me in here.


> I like this comment which is one we all missed Quote:
> That does not mean that every corner of the state is crawling with deer, but overall we have a tremendous population. The state recognized this by the different zones


 I did not miss that.
Here was what I wrote and it follows your view pretty closely.


> I am sure like Clyde said it largely depends on the area that you live in. Some areas get hunted harder and some can not due to access limitations.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

> They base the deer killed every year by the amount of deer that are CHECKED in. They do not take in consideration of all the deer that are hits by cars, not checked in, not found, poached, ect.


What in the world makes you think that? Do you know how they go about estimating herd numbers? Obviously not. I'm mearly trying to help you understand that as you learn more about deer habits, you'll realize the deer aren't always where you think they should be. I'm not saying know know nothing about deer, and I don't think I ever implied that (that wasn't my intention), but with more experience you'll realize there's a lot more to learn. It seems your taking things personally and are unwilling to open your mind to the fact that you may misunderstand some things, so I'll let you believe what you will. As you get older, hopefully you'll come to see that's there's always something to learn and to not be so defensive when someone suggests a different way of thinking. Trust me, your too young to be so angry.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

Pennsylvania has assigned 3- and 4-point restrictions which have worked great from the comments I am hearing from everyone who either hunts there or lives there... 95% of all my relatives live there and I am from there...
I have not heard one complaint after the above restrictions were in place but boy did I hear them before LOL
Many hunters now take does which for years were taboo in Pa and to many it still is there but with more does taken there are less bucks taken giving them a better buck to doe ratio...
I'd be for it if its implemented right and not force fed to us...
The only study that I know of here in Ohio, and I am sure there are others I do not know of, was an antler study which concluded that there are as many bucks as there always has been but the quality of the racks were getting lower with less points and less mass... This study was done using info obtained at check in stations...


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

Show me some proof that they calculate the number of deer killed every year by more than just the amount of deer checked in. Maybe we both need to open our minds and take into consideration what each other is saying.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

*a mind is a terrible thing to waste*
So is time lets not argue but agree to disagree 
so nomore bashing each other


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

BTW the state does use a crude method of counting deer killed on the roads using reports from insurance agencies along with some other formula that I can't recall at this time...
I was pretty active with the DNR when deer topics were being tossed around because I needed every advantage I could get running a guide service and needing to get cleints as good a chance at a harvest as I could so I went to some meetings to learn what I could about how they come up with their bags limits and such... They are pretty good at it....


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Clyde,

I am interested to hear more about the PA buck restrictions. In particular how do they enforce it? What happens when someone kills one under the limit? Does this simply go toward an antlerless tag or is there any other repercussion? I would not like to see us put in place a system that encouraged less than honest hunters to leave a deer laying in the field if it was not big enough. I am not suggesting that it happens there but that is the part I was hoping you could explain further.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

Okay now that we got that out of the way is anyone ready to go fishing?


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> is anyone ready to go fishing?


I am tied up this weekend but am looking forward to trying for somemore smelt next weekend











> I am interested to hear more about the PA buck restrictions.


Try this link to read the following information: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=151294

*Pennsylvania Deer* 
Search Game Commission Home Printable Version eMail  


*Antler Restrictions*
_By Dr. Christopher S. Rosenberry, Wildlife Biometrician_ - New antler restrictions arrive this fall. By raising the bar from the old restriction, 2 points to an antler or a spike at least 3 inches long, to the new restrictions, 3 or 4 points to an antler, depending on location, more yearling (1½-year-old) bucks should survive into the adult (2½ and older) age class. Reasons for the new antler restrictions have been discussed elsewhere (see 2003-2004 Hunting Digest). In this article I address some questions and concerns about the new antler restrictions.

*Why have 3- and 4-point areas?*

Different areas of Pennsylvania produce larger bucks at younger ages than others. Using four years of antler point data collected from more than 71,000 bucks, we assigned 3- and 4-point restrictions to different areas based on antler characteristics. The objectives of these new restrictions are designed to protect about half of the yearling bucks from being taken during the hunting season and yet have most adult bucks legal.

Throughout most of the state, a 3-points to a side restriction should satisfy this objective. In western Pennsylvania, however, a 3-point restriction would protect less than a third of all yearling bucks, whereas a 4-points to a side restriction protects more than half. The same is true for some southeastern counties, but the restriction was kept at 3-points to a side because the high human densities and deer-people conflicts play a larger role in our management decisions there.

*Why have statewide regulations instead of trying new antler restrictions on smaller, pilot areas?*

In answering this question it is important to understand that the fundamental goal of a pilot area is to evaluate a management action to see if it will work across the state. To meet this basic goal, the pilot area must be representative of the entire state. If the pilot area is different than the entire state, then results from it have limited value when applied to the entire state.

Therefore, restrictions were implemented statewide (except for Special Regulation counties) instead of pilot areas for three reasons. First, we didn't want to create areas hunters could avoid the first year, because of limited opportunity to harvest a buck, and then flood the second year when more adult bucks would be available. Second, we did not want to encourage the leasing of hunting land here. Generally, hunters lease land to obtain opportunities not available elsewhere. By implementing new antler restrictions statewide, no area is unique. Therefore, we expect leasing of hunting land to be less likely than if we designated local pilot areas that offered increased opportunities to harvest adult bucks. Finally, from research data, we know that if yearling bucks are not shot, they are likely to survive to become adults. So, success of antler restrictions comes down to hunter acceptance and behavior. In essence, with small pilot areas hunters would likely behave differently than if restriction were applied statewide. For these reasons, we favored statewide evaluation of the new antler restrictions.

*Why use antler points instead of antler spread?*

We used antler points instead of antler spread because points gave us more flexibility. The typical spread restriction is limited to a single criterion that hunters can readily identify in the field. For example, ear tip width of about 14 to 15 inches. The usefulness of this criterion varies greatly across Pennsylvania. In most areas it protects yearling bucks, but in some areas it also protects many adult bucks. By using points, we varied the regulation according to antler characteristics in different areas.

*Biologists in some states with point (or spread) restrictions do not favor them. Why have them in PA?*

Most states that have some type of spread or point restriction also allow hunters to take more than one buck. In conversations with these biologists, to reduce harvest pressure on yearling bucks they prefer to reduce buck bag limits rather than new antler restrictions. However, in Pennsylvania, with our bag limit of one, reducing the bag limit is not an option. To reduce pressure on our yearling bucks, we chose new antler restrictions where every hunter has a chance to take a buck over the alternative of limiting the number of hunters allowed to take a buck.

*Bucks will be shot and left in the woods.*

This is the biggest unknown and the primary concern we have with the new antler restrictions. What decision will Pennsylvania hunters make when they see a buck this fall? The sum of these decisions will ultimately affect the success or failure of antler restrictions and the public image of our hunters. This is one of the reasons we intend to tag hundreds of bucks over the next three years. Rather than relying on anecdotal reports, we will have survival data on radio-collared bucks. When any is killed, we will know when, where and how, and whether it was a legal buck or not. Sure, mistakes may occur, but regulations have been adopted to handle mistakes with minimal consequences for the hunter.

*Smaller yearling bucks will still be small when they're adults.*

This statement is based on the assumption that yearling bucks with few points grow into adult bucks with few points, and yearling bucks with more points grow into adult bucks with more points. This assumption is generally not supported by scientific research. A recently published research paper specifically looked at the effect of antler restrictions on antler characteristics of adult bucks. The paper presented a total of 18 different scenarios where antler restrictions and harvest rates varied. Fifteen of the 18 scenarios resulted in no differences in antler characteristics of the surviving bucks at 4.5 years of age.

The scenario that most closely represented our new antler restriction format showed no difference in antler characteristics of adult bucks. In other words, antler characteristics of adult bucks with antler restrictions were the same as those without antler restrictions. Additional data from various deer populations indicate adult bucks generally have 8 to 10 points regardless of the number of antler points they had as a yearlings.

*Protecting yearling bucks with fewer than 3 or 4 points to an antler will degrade antlers of future bucks.*

This statement relates to how well a yearling buck's antlers represent the quality of the buck's genes. Research from Mississippi and Texas - where most antler research has occurred - differ. Results from Mississippi State University suggest that yearling antler points provide little information about the genetics of a buck. On the other hand, research from the Kerr Wildlife Management Area in Texas suggests that yearling antler points do reflect the genetic quality of a buck.

An independent review by an animal breeding and genetics expert concluded that problems existed with the data used by both states and, therefore, that no strong evidence exists for either conclusion. Despite the important role of a buck's mother in his antler characteristics, neither the Mississippi nor Texas results have provided valid estimates of maternal effects on antler growth. Studies specifically designed to evaluate maternal effects are needed. Also the Texas data include high levels of inbreeding - no new deer have been introduced to the deer pens since the 1970s -and many of the deer are related to one buck, "Big Charlie."

A recent review of the scientific literature on genetics in hunted populations concluded that there is little evidence available to suggest that hunting, including selective harvests, has long-term genetic consequences. One reason for this conclusion is the combination of genetics and harvest regulations apparently diminish suspected negative impacts. For example, if antler restrictions did selectively harvest "better" bucks, antlerless harvests are generally nonselective in their removal of "better" or "poorer" does. Thus, a continued mixing of "better" and "poorer" genes throughout the deer herd reduces the amount of change.

We do know that genetics is just one of many factors that determine the number of points on a yearling buck. A buck's mother and her genes, nutrition, health and other factors affect antler points. All these factors create a situation where there is no strong evidence that the new antler restriction will hurt or improve genetics of Pennsylvania's deer herd.

*Do Pennsylvania hunters support antler restrictions?*

When the Game Commission makes management decisions, those decisions affect all hunters, not just a group that reads a certain magazine or belongs to a specific organization. Therefore, the most responsible method of assessing hunter support is through scientific surveys that provide all hunters an equal chance to participate.

Professional wildlife managers must also consider scientific data in favor of anecdotal comments. We regularly hear comments like "none of the hunters I know support antler restrictions." We also hear comments like "everybody in my camp is in favor of antler restrictions." Which comment should be considered more? If we listen to those who disagree, those in support are upset. If we listen to those in support, those against are upset.

Rather than consider only surveys of specific groups of hunters or anecdotal comments, we contracted Pennsylvania State University to conduct a scientific survey. Results of this survey presented at the April 2002 Commission meeting indicated that most Pennsylvania hunters support antler restrictions.

*What does the future hold?*

This year, the antlered harvest will be smaller, because most yearlings will be protected. In the future, the deer population will contain proportionally more and larger bucks. The population should contain proportionally more bucks because about half of all yearling bucks will be protected and most should survive into the adult age class. The population should contain larger bucks, because the yearling bucks passed up one year will likely be around the next year as larger bodied adults with larger antlers.

*Conclusions*

As with any change in tradition, new antler restrictions are not without controversies and concerns. Like many hunters, the Game Commission's deer management team shares concerns about the unknown future. However, after critical evaluation of available information, new antler restrictions were recommended based upon their ability to achieve a rapid and noticeable change in the buck age structure, because of hunter support, and because there's no scientific evidence that they will be detrimental to Pennsylvania's deer herd. With the uncertainty associated with changing the antler restriction, we will continue to monitor the large-scale impact of antler restrictions through harvest data collection and hunter surveys; as well as more intensive monitoring of hundreds of individually marked bucks in different areas of the state.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Traphunter, I never meant for this to be an argument, and don't intend to continue it. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know that that I've taken this very seriously for a long time. I spend a lot more time reading research articles and observing deer movement than the average person, so I try to never suggest theories, only what I know to be facts. Not to say some of them aren't wrong, but I'll be the first to admit when I am. The fact is there are things we all need to learn, but we have to open our minds. Each year I learn how little I knew the year before. 

On to other things . I really don't think I like the idea of antler restrictions. On one hand, what consumes a huge deal of my time is trophy whitetails, and who wouldn't want to see more? But, I was a young hunter once too, and I don't believe someone should have to let a deer walk if it's a trophy to them. Who am I to tell others that they have to be trophy hunters? To me, the only time antler restrictions should be put in place is in states that have very unhealthy deer herds, such as PA and WV. Then, only as long as it takes to get the herd healthy again. Ohio's management system has been the same for many years, and it would tough for anyone to say it hasn't worked well. I completely understand why some would like to see the restrictions, but I would really feel selfish if I wanted to force my beliefs on someone else.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Thanks for the info Clyde! That is what I was wanting to see.




> *Bucks will be shot and left in the woods.*
> 
> This is the biggest unknown and the primary concern we have with the new antler restrictions.


 I feel smart now. That is what my biggest question was as well.

It will be interesting to see how this experiment goes for them.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

> I never meant for this to be an argument, and don't intend to continue it.


 Me neither.  


Thats the great thing about hunting you learn somthing new everyday.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

M.Magis,
Those are some very good points on the antler restrictions. As you said it does not seem that our system is really broken so why "fix" it? As time goes by there will be the need to reevaluate the limits in all areas and so far this has seemed to worked pretty well as a whole.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> I don't believe someone should have to let a deer walk if it's a trophy to them


I was in the same mind set as you but am always willing to change my mind when confronted with information that looks promising such as what has hap'd in Pa...

Looking at their restrictions and remembering that they are set for one antler/side most if not all trophies in anyones eyes would easily fall into those catagories I owuld think... What they are doing is letting smaller bucks like spikes, 4 pts and in some cases even 6 pts get an extra year or two of growth in...
I too don't really see the need for any restrictions here in Ohio but that one study did find a decrease in antler size both in amount of points and mass thus some tweeking of the regs may come someday... way down the road but maybe someday...


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> *Bucks will be shot and left in the woods.*


I have a good friend who runs Allegheny Wilderness Outfitters in Pa and that was his biggest concern... He said he has seen a decrease in the number of dead deer and also thinks it is because hunters were being much more cautious and selective... He hunts alot of grouse with clients after deer season ends avg between 20-30 flushes a day behind his dogs thus he covers alot of ground in deer cover the kind that deer run off to die in after being hit...


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

> He said he has seen a decrease in the number of dead deer and also thinks it is because hunters were being much more cautious and selective...


 That report kind of surprises me. I would not have expected anything less but perhaps the same at best. I know a lot of hunters who will drop deer on the run and at a distance. I can't envision a lot of these changing their ways. Nor can I believe that they would have the ability to field judge that well and that quickly.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

> What they are doing is letting smaller bucks like spikes, 4 pts and in some cases even 6 pts get an extra year or two of growth in...


 That's what I don't agree with, in our state. As a young boy, I would have been thrilled to take a 4 point, even a spike. I would just hate to have to tell a youngster, or the weekend hunter, that because I like to shoot only fully mature bucks, that he can't shoot a young one. I too have noticed over the years a change in the bucks I see. I see far more "good" deer (120"-140") these days than I ever have, but maybe not quite a many "big" deer, 150"+. I see a few each year, but only see one B&C class deer ever couple years. That's still pretty darn good, but considering the amount of deer I see, I would expect to see a few more 150" deer. I guess I've contributed it to the increase in the numbers of deer around my parts. While there's hundreds of acres of quality food around, there's a rediculous amount of deer, and the habitat decreases every year. That, to me, seems to be the biggest problem of all. One which I don't see an answer to.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

In Ohio it seems more of an issue of how to kill enough does in many areas more than what kind of bucks get killed. As you mentioned there are some areas that the population of the deer continues to rise despite increases in total bag limits.

In my opinion if they want to address this issue (total doe harvest) they need to make it less expensive for the deer permits. I know the DNR makes a lot of their money from the permit sales but it seems that if they brought the price down you may get a few more people taking that second and third deer.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> it seems that if they brought the price down you may get a few more people taking that second and third deer


They did do the next best thing, unless the regs have been changed, by letting you purchase your special permits on a seperate date after you purchase the statewide permit and even after you have used same... This helps keep the overall initial cost down at the least...


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

You are right that did help some I am sure. However, evidently not enough people still are not taking the additional deer.

This is kind of on another area of the topic but I could not understand why they did scheduled the primitive (muzzleloader ) season when they did. There were several people that I talked to that said they were not going to be able to go because they had no vacation time left. I always thought that they tried to work that season around the New Year's time to get people the opportunity.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> I could not understand why they did scheduled the primitive (muzzleloader ) season when they did


From opening day of the deer-archery season in October, Ohio hunters were on a record- setting pace. Young hunters set a new mark in the second year of the states two-day youth deer-gun season with 6,673 deer killed.
During the four-day statewide muzzleloader season, hunters took a record 27,749 deer. Hunters also exceeded the record for deer taken during the archery season (October 2 to January 31) with 57,198. A total of 125,681 deer was killed during the popular one-week deer gun season. 

I have asked that question so many times they have answered it before it came out of my mouth...
If the harvest totals are close to what they are looking for then they see no reason to change ( if its not broke... )
Looking at the above numbers they won't change the M/L season because they'll see no need to harvest more deer and deer harvest numbers help them equate how healthy the deer herd is statewide and it is looking mighty good to me


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## zoar (Apr 19, 2004)

PA antler restrictions don't apply to kids 16 and younger. They may shoot any buck with at least a 3 inch spike.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> PA antler restrictions don't apply to kids 16 and younger. They may shoot any buck with at least a 3 inch spike.


Well thats a very good valid point THANKS...

42 Pennsylvania Game Commission
Deer Seasons & Bag Limits

Antler Restriction Definition, Wildlife Mgt. Units
WILDLIFE MGT. UNITS 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B & 2D: Four or
more points to one antler.

ALL OTHER WILDLIFE MGT. UNITS: Three or more
points to one antler.

NOTE EXCEPTIONS: In all *wildlife management units,*
junior license holders, disabled person permit (to use a vehicle)
holders and residents serving on active duty in the U.S. Armed
Forces, or in the U.S. Coast Guard, two or more points to one antler,
or with one antler 3 inches or more in length.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I did not realize that the muzzleloader season set a record as well. With that I guess I will shut my mouth.


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Clyde, 

on M/L season, I agree w/ you, they probally wont change it due to # of deer killed, but to me the reason they should chnage it has nothing to do w/ the # of kills, it has to do w/ the people. How many of us missed it this year due to the timing? I know many. I think it shoulod be changed just in order to allow a working man/woman the oppernuity to hunt the M/L season. Does that make sense? I'm too tired to thing right.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

Their reasoning is simple but not popular thats for sure... 
I'd like to be able to M/L hunt too but had to miss this year also...
They don't want to spend the money it would take to have the manpower to place wardens around the state where most of the hunting is done like they do in gun season... To do so would require something like a M/L permit and I don't think anyone wants to go there


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

The reason they had the ML season where it was this year is very simple, that's when hunters said they wanted it. It doesn't have anything to do with the number of kills or manpower. Hunters kept saying they wanted it right after Christmas so they could hunt with their kids on break, so that's what the ODNR did. This was one of the very rare years where it didn't include a weekend, most years it does. Now, I'll admit they could have move it to Thur-Sun and still allowed people on holiday break to hunt, but if nothin else, the ODNR tries to stay consistent. I'm sure they know by now they should have tweaked it, but I think they were just trying to stick with what they promised when they originally changed it.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Christmas falls on Sunday this year so if they stick to that reasoning people better plan for it.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Your right Brian. Hopefully this year they'll make the change to allow more people to get out and hunt.


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree , lets hope.


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Its good to see a hunting thread get this much attention, out of hunting season!


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

> The reason they had the ML season where it was this year is very simple, that's when hunters said they wanted it


I have been to many of the meetings from 1985 to 2002 and have never heard anyone ask ever to have the M/L season scheduled during the week... on the contrary I have heard numerous complaints that hunters cannot make time due to the holiday season or schedule time off work... I have also heard suggestions to move the season to the week after gun season but that also has never been considered...

I even heard suggestions to move the meetings to a weekend but that won't happen either LOL

I would bet that if you asked the same question at each meeting place you may get a diff answer at each one so PLEASE don't think I am calling anyone out or not believing what is said here I can only say what I have heard while attending a meeting... I know it depends on who is running the meetings but sometimes it sure seems they wish they were somewhere...



I did forget that another reason they have it during that time frame was they were trying to get as close to the 2nd rut phase as possible and that is word for word what I heard them say...This is not my reason so don't shoot the messenger!!!

If anyone can make to the meetings they will listen to your input and make it part of the record if you get a chance to speak LOL...

I hit them hard for years over the non-use of 2-way radios and am glad they came to see the light... It was a safety issue concerning my clients many of whom were old enough to warrant some type of contact when being out in a tree stand or blind alone... I simply wanted a way to contact them without walking into the area they were hunting and possibly ruining a hunt in progress... Not to use as a help while hunting but for safety...
Whatever their reasons are for what they do and why it is always good to voice your opinion and be heard they really do like to hear from hunters...


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

I just called and they don't have nothing to say on the matter they even wouldn't give me proposed dates thye may be thinking about for the 2005-06 season M/L season... They will talk about Feb 9th when they meet is all I could get...


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Your right Clyde, we may be getting different info. I was just going by what the ODNR stated back when they originally moved the ML season. I'm sure there was more to it, but it seemed to me like a valid reason.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

Boy I would love a longer M/L season... 

I just called to replace the bolt for my traditions inline because the old one fell out UGH!!  
At least I get a free one and they have since changed the design so they no longer will fall out...
BTW mine fell out 4 years ago and I just got around to asking them for another and they said no prob it will be shipped today  


If it wasn't for this thread I would have never called for another one


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