# Shooting at a deer downhill



## MuskieManOhio (Jun 29, 2008)

Me and my friends have been arguing about weather or not to shoot low at a deer that is down hill or not? Lets hear your guys opinions

Gillie


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

You can shoot low if want to miss. Gravity starts to impact a bullet as soon as it leaves the tip of the barrel. Gravity pulls the bullet downward at the same speed. If you shoot a bullet level, and drop a shell at the exact time, They will both hit the ground at the same time. If you are sighted in level, shoot level. Very small one inch discrepancies do apply. 


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

It obviously depends on just how downhill it is, but yes. Downhill or up, aim low.


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## Eriesteamer (Mar 9, 2007)

shooting a bullet any distance the weight and speed distance all will cause it to hit lower. so if you shoot down hill it hit a bit higher. up hill lower. look at a military rifles rear adjustable sight and you will see feet verses drop.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i shoot from a tree stand about 15 or 20 ft up in the air. so i am always shooting down hill. i have never aimed low to compinsate for shooting down. now it might make a difference when shooting a bow. but with a gun i just dont think it makes that much difference. maby an inch or two at the most. i just aim dead center or just below dead center. but thats because of where the heart is in the deer.
sherman


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

You are dealing with the concept of true horizontal distance. I cannot answer you question without knowing the slope and distance. The less of a slope and closer it is, the less important it is of a factor.

In most situations I have found myself in win slug gun and a maximum range of 125 yards and gently rolling hills, it has not been a factor worth adjusting my point of aim for on deer sized game.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Any time the projectile flight varies from a right angle, 90 degrees, from gravity the flight will change just based on less effect from gravity

How much does a bullet or arrow drop during it entire range of flight if shot straight up or straight down? Zero

From a practical hunting question of aim high or low you need a lot more data to determine the answer, angle, distance, flight data for projectile, etc


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## Jigging Jim (Apr 3, 2010)

With a Gun: Aim high - and the Slug will exit on the opposite side of the Deer at a lower point than the Entrance Wound (if it exits the Carcass)... Bow Shots: Aim Lower than your Point of Intended Impact. Reason being that the noise of the Bow String may spook the Deer and cause it to Crouch down a bit. They do that to get prepared to Jump. This is called "Jumping the String". The Deer Crouches at first. That's when the Arrow goes over it's back (if you do not aim low).


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## LilSiman/Medina (Nov 30, 2010)

It all matters the distance you are from the deer. Not the point of view distance but the latteral distance. Down hill the deer will look farther away. just like in a treestand for example. If the deer is say 10 yards from the end of your bow when your in a treestand it is approximately 6 yards from the bottom of your stand, which is the distance that gravity plays an effect on.


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## buck.eyehunter (May 27, 2007)

With a bow the trajectory will depend on where you bend, at hips or in arms if you will. You actually shorten the draw length by dropping bow arm to take down hill shoots. Bend at the hips at its the same..
But should aim high as stated..

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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

dude... how bout just go and try it out with your friends? do yo or your friends have property with a hill that has a decent grade to it? put a target at the bottom and fling a few arrows.. then a few slugs.. post the results for us! i'd kinda like to see it


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

LilSiman/Medina said:


> It all matters the distance you are from the deer. Not the point of view distance but the latteral distance. Down hill the deer will look farther away. just like in a treestand for example. If the deer is say 10 yards from the end of your bow when your in a treestand it is approximately 6 yards from the bottom of your stand, which is the distance that gravity plays an effect on.


Bingo! We have a winner! All that matters is the horizontal distance between you and the target. Uphill or downhill, it doesn't matter. Now in really steep terrain this can take some figuring. Let's say you have a deer on a steep hill, either above or below you, that ranges at 125 yards on a range finder. But, because of the slope, the horizontal distance between you is actually 75 yards. Then 75 yards is what you hold for. This is what those angle compensating range finders are for. So, in this scenario, if you're shooting a rifle that you have zeroed for 200 yards, then yes, you would hold a little low.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

This is a great question! This is one of the things I try to explain to people when we talk about legalizing pistol caliber rifles.

The speed of the bullet determines how far it can travel before gravity drastically alters it course. If you drop a bullet from barrel height and it takes one second to hit the ground then the same bullet traveling 2000fps from the muzzle will be on the ground at 2000 feet in 1 second. But! Aerodynamics and friction cause the bullet to slow down in flight. The bullet isn't traveling at 2000 feet per second as it did from the muzzle when it reaches 2000 feet.

It would slow down much faster if you shot it into a 20 mph oncoming wind. When we sight our guns in for say 100 yards we compensate for bullet drop over that distance by adjusting the sights a little bit higher than a straight line. That creates an arc of flight.

That arc of flight translates regardless of the angle of shot. Line of departure represents where the bullet would travel in a straight line from the gun if gravity were not a factor. Line of sight is the imaginary line we create by adjusting the sights to compensate for bullet trajectory or arc of flight. 










For some reason this is one of the most difficult concepts for people to grasp when you mention the word rifle. If a .45 caliber 300 grain bullet exits a shotgun sabot at 2000fps that is OK. If the exact same .45 caliber 300 grain bullet exits a muzzle loading rifle at 2000fps it is also OK. If the exact same .45 caliber 300 grain bullet exits a rifle at 2000fps it is not OK.

Our regulations are limited to the name of the tube the bullet escapes from and the public's perception of them instead of bullet physics.

How far should a bullet be allowed to travel from shoulder height over level earth before it strikes the ground?

That bullet may still have enough speed, penetration and tissue damage potential to humanely kill at 400 yards. If a hunter were to get between a shooter and target somewhere near the middle then the arc of flight might allow that bullet to pass right over their head with a mortar effect. When you compare that to say a 300Win Mag at 400 yards the bullet is probably going to pass right through the torso of a person in the same place.

Which is really safer? A bullet with a sharp arc of flight or a bullet so fast that a couple of twigs will reduce it's mass to harmless velocity very quickly?

That all depends on a hunters understanding of how their weapon operates, the terrain, the obstacles, where the shooter is, where the target is, bullet trajectory to target, the speed and mass of the bullet, bullet composition and where the person potentially in danger is.

Back on topic. If I use a mid speed, heavy projectile that can devastate a deer at 400 yards then it all depends on the range I sight my gun in as to how sharp my arc of flight is relative to the target based on the adjustment I made to compensate for that.

The above chart illustrates what changes uphill and down hill from that line of sight.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

The horizontal distance is just a quick and somewhat close calculation to determine true ballistic flight

The range compensating range finders do the math for you based upon line of sight distance and angle of the shot. If you have a 400 yd, line of sight shot at 20 degrees it will calculate the "ballistic yardage" if you have the exact same shot at 30 degrees it will calculate a different "ballistic yardage". In both cases, even with different "ballistic yardages" the bullet still travels the same 400 yds

To use horizontal yardage will ball park the numbers close enough to hunt unless you have some extreme variables.

In Ohio with the guns we use at the yardages we shoot the difference will be minimal


Ever wonder why you can't use your 10 or 20 yd pin on your bow to shoot a deer directly under your tree?


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

When you shoot uphill you are defeating gravity, when you shoot downhill you you are defeating gravity, in either case impact will be high so you need to shoot low. This is for long range shooting and will not be noticed much with either a bow or shotgun. When in a treestand don't take your range to the ground, pick a tree to where you expect to shoot and range the tree level to where you are shooting from. I expect some to disagree but from my studies this is how it is.


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

I rarely agree with anyone as often as I do you. My 243 is dead on at 50 yards and at 200 yards slightly high in between shooting 3600 fps 68 grain Watson bullet.


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

At distance, if you are shooting up hill, you will shoot low. Likewise, at distance if your shooting down hill you will shoot low. Distance being defined as 100 or greater yards. Ask anyone who qualified as a marksman in the service.

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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

Correction...the gun will shoot high and you need to aim low...while gravity remains the same, your gun is sighed in on level ground and the curve is different at distance...had to go loom it up...

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## Rednek (Nov 6, 2006)

Lundy is correct and seconded by Leupy. 

Anytime the trajectory varies from the horizontal pull of gravity whether that be shooting up hill or down hill the impact of gravity is lesser and the bullet impact will be higher. 

In most hunting situations that we are presented in Ohio this negligible difference in impact should not change our point of aim very much. 


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

leupy said:


> Buckeye, the graph you posted is bullshit. It shows bullet drop as if from a scoped rifle but does not show it low from the muzzle, passing through the line of sight then going high and back through line of sight at the distance sighted in for. For this to be correct without a scope the line of sight and the line of departure should be the same angle at the muzzle. The chart has the angle of departure at an uphill angle as with a scope. Your writing is correct but with a sight shooting high above the line of sight, the chart does not show it.


Line of sight represents a straight line to the target. Or what we use to make adjustments in trajectory. Line of departure represents line of barrel. Or a straight line through the barrel. Bullet trajectory represents the arc of flight.

That illustration (or something similar) is published in several reloading manuals . The chart is correct. If anything my description of it should have been the part to scrutinize. I meant the same thing but the language I am used to is not the same. Some of the more advanced manuals include the formula to calculate it all. We have apps and scopes that do all that stuff for us fairly well so I spared the math.


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

Just as a note this months NRA magazine American Hunter has a very good article about long range shooting and balistics. It does not tell everything but it does give a comner man knowledge of how it all works. If you are not an NRA member I suggest you should be and while you have the choice of several magazines I suggest American Hunter.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

I need to add one more thing. A shotgun slug can still topple a deer at 200 yards with ease. Using a simple Winchester 3" Super-X slug zeroed at 100 yards it will drop an additional 31 inches at 200 yards.

31 inches is plenty enough to miss deer on uphill and down hill shots with what we use in Ohio. To make a blanket statement like "In Ohio with the guns we use at the yardages we shoot the difference will be minimal" would be wrong. 

What we use by design has a sharp arc which makes them much more susceptible to what we are discussing than say a flatter shooting hyper velocity rifle.


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

I may have been a little harsh in the post but remember the weight of the bullet and the powder charge can change everything the scopes that claim to adjust to the caliber of the bullet do not work for target shooting but they should be fine for middle distance hunting.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

buckeye dan said:


> I need to add one more thing. A shotgun slug can still topple a deer at 200 yards with ease. Using a simple Winchester 3" Super-X slug zeroed at 100 yards it will drop an additional 31 inches at 200 yards.
> 
> 31 inches is plenty enough to miss deer on uphill and down hill shots with what we use in Ohio. To make a blanket statement like "In Ohio with the guns we use at the yardages we shoot the difference will be minimal" would be wrong.
> 
> What we use by design has a sharp arc which makes them much more susceptible to what we are discussing than say a flatter shooting hyper velocity rifle.


Dan, 

Why do you always seem to go to very extreme examples.

Anyone that shoots the load you reference at 200 yds is way too stupid to ever educate about ballistics.

For the same load you reference with the 100 yd zero and a *100 yard shot* the impact change for a 20 degrees variance form level is 3/4", a 30 degree variance would be 2".

Now consider that these changes are based upon a 1 MOA zero. Then consider the load is fired from a smooth bore and that 1 MOA is not even close to realistic at 100 yds. 

So will a average shooter in Ohio see a difference in impact using the load you reference at normal distance when shooting up or downhill. Nope, the load itself isn't accurate enough to see change.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Lundy said:


> Dan,
> 
> Why do you always seem to go to very extreme examples.
> 
> ...


Don't shoot the messenger. That is the advertised effective range of the shell. People are very susceptible to marketing and product claims. More so than any of our opinions combined.

I could have just as easily used a sabot type shell in comparison. I could have used a bow, crossbow, a handgun or a muzzle loading rifle. Bows and crossbows are highly susceptible to what we are discussing. On the other hand the conversation seemed geared towards firearms.

Have a look at this:
http://www.gunwerks.com/Shooting-Systems/muzzleLoader

The reason I didn't use that example is because of the price tag. Since they are so expensive they don't exist. Blah! I know people that spend more on ammo than the cost of that gun but I didn't want to argue that they do exist or upset anyone by making an "extreme" claim.

Lundy I think you limit yourself too much to your own personal experiences. That isn't an insult. It's an observation. This statement may apply to you: "In Ohio with the guns we use at the yardages we shoot the difference will be minimal" but it does not apply to everyone.

We can and do use weapons that are quite capable out to 200 yards and you don't have to spend a lot to do it. A H&R Ultra Slug Hunter for about $250, an $80 scope and a $15 box of sabot slugs zeroed at 100 yards can cause you problems with what we are discussing at 200 yards.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

all you guys have just got way over my head. as most of my shots are less than 50 yrds and the rest are usely under 100 yrds i,ll just aim at where i want to hit and let gravity do the rest,LOL.

i do use a magnum load in my ml but i still like to limit my shots to 100 yrds. any misses i have i believe is my fault and not bullet drop from shooting down hill from my stand. i shoot 150 grns of 777 pellets and a 150 grn bullet. i have shot deer from 5 yrds or less out to 120 yrds or 120 large steps and i have never noticed more than a few inches from point of aim. and that could have very easely just been me pulling off target.

so i believe for what we are talking about here shooting up or down hill the rise or drop of our bullets are nill.
sherman


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

buckeye dan said:


> We can and do use weapons that are quite capable out to 200 yards and you don't have to spend a lot to do it. A H&R Ultra Slug Hunter for about $250, an $80 scope and a $15 box of sabot slugs zeroed at 100 yards can cause you problems with what we are discussing at 200 yards.


I don't disagree with you on this at all. However you used a 1 oz foster slug with over a 30" drop at 200 yds with a 100 yd zero. NOWHERE can you show me any manufacturer claiming the effective range on this slug is 200 yds. In fact Winchester shows only a 50 yd zero and data to 125 yds for this exact load.

I call it extreme when you use a 200 yd shot with a load that is not recommended for that shot as an example. 

I am a little familiar with slug guns, loads and their capabilities. I will continue to question anyone that uses a 100 yd zero with any inclinations of ever taking a 200 yd shot on a deer with today's shotguns and available slugs. There are much better and more responsible ways to set up your gun to increase your odds of success. The fact that obviously many don't only illustrates a lack of understanding of the capabilities and limitations of their guns. Are these hunters going to realize a difference form shooting uphill or downhill? Not likely.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Lundy said:


> I don't disagree with you on this at all. However you used a 1 oz foster slug with over a 30" drop at 200 yds with a 100 yd zero. NOWHERE can you show me any manufacturer claiming the effective range on this slug is 200 yds. In fact Winchester shows only a 50 yd zero and data to 125 yds for this exact load.
> 
> I call it extreme when you use a 200 yd shot with a load that is not recommended for that shot as an example.
> 
> I am a little familiar with slug guns, loads and their capabilities. I will continue to question anyone that uses a 100 yd zero with any inclinations of ever taking a 200 yd shot on a deer with today's shotguns and available slugs. There are much better and more responsible ways to set up your gun to increase your odds of success. The fact that obviously many don't only illustrates a lack of understanding of the capabilities and limitations of their guns. Are these hunters going to realize a difference form shooting uphill or downhill? Not likely.


In the example I gave the Winchester ballistics calculator provided the max range. Here is a one that is more likely to be used over longer ranges with an 11" drop at 200 yards.










My examples aren't perfect but all I was trying to illustrate is the phenomena that we are discussing can be and is relevant to a lot of folks.

Most hunters using the more common firearms sight for 100 yards but still shoot down into hollows at extreme distances simply because they misjudge the range. They probably miss more times than not but they wouldn't have to if they understood more about this subject and had a range finder.

It's not something that needs to be debated. Obviously there is a need for the information or the question would not have been asked in the first place. 

Whether my examples are extreme or not, I entered into the conversation trying to explain the phenomena completely instead of assuming: "In Ohio with the guns we use at the yardages we shoot the difference will be minimal". That just seemed a little dismissive to the topic matter and I disagree with the statement.

It's nothing personal. I just picked up where you left off.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Dan,

OK, we agree on 95% of the stuff just differ on the nuance's


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Lundy said:


> Dan,
> 
> OK, we agree on 95% of the stuff just differ on the nuance's


I concur with that.


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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

I'll agree with Lundy, because he usually posts kool graphs and spread sheets.


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## Seaturd (Apr 14, 2004)

I sight my old Winchester 12 ga. pump with smooth bore slug barrel in at 60 paces, keep my shots to that approximate distance or less and don't shoot at running deer. It takes all this ballistic science out of the equation and keeps my freezer full of venison w/o leaving cripples in the woods because I miscalculated the angle of the dangle.


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## Huntinbull (Apr 10, 2004)

Eriesteamer said:


> so if you shoot down hill it hit a bit higher. up hill lower.


Not true. Shooting at steep angles EITHER uphill or down will cause the bullet to hit high. Gravity works along a level linear plane. Even though the linear distance may be (random distance given) 200 yards. Along a level shot path, your firearm may hit point of aim, but at a steep upward or downward angle the point of impact will be higher than the point of aim. The bullet path might be 200 yards but at a 45 degree angle the actual level distance traveled will be significantly less, (about 70% as far) about 140 yards.


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## MuskieManOhio (Jun 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the responses guys they we're greatly appreciated!


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## VitalShot (Feb 10, 2012)

buckeyebowman said:


> Bingo! We have a winner! All that matters is the horizontal distance between you and the target. Uphill or downhill, it doesn't matter. Now in really steep terrain this can take some figuring. Let's say you have a deer on a steep hill, either above or below you, that ranges at 125 yards on a range finder. But, because of the slope, the horizontal distance between you is actually 75 yards. Then 75 yards is what you hold for. This is what those angle compensating range finders are for. So, in this scenario, if you're shooting a rifle that you have zeroed for 200 yards, then yes, you would hold a little low.


Bingo. Nail on head. 


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