# Smallmouth in Pond??



## Supersnagger

Do any of you have SM Bass in your pond? What are the pro and cons of having SM Bass in a pond. I have two deep rocky stip pit ponds with very steep banks, they have LM bass and bluegills in them but would really like to add some SM bass to them. Where can I buy them? Thank you for any imput


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## [email protected]

Smallmouth do fine in Ohio ponds for the most part but do not compete well with largemouth. If smallmouth are expected to thrive, there should be no largemouth present. It was once believed that smallmouth inhabit different areas of lakes than largemouth by choice but more recent research shows that smallmouth live in different areas because they've been forced out by largemouth. You can try them but if the largemouth aren't already fat, don't expect smallmouth to grow well.

I think beemoth got some at Fenders. Jones may have them as well. Beemoth might be able to offer some growth numbers in his largemouth free pond. You'll need to stock smallmouth 1/2 the length of your largest bass to ensure survival. Expect them to be expensive.


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## beemoth

......PondFin you've got a good memory. 

my initial stocking was Aug. of '05
550 perch----50 shellcrackers---2000 fathead miinnows

March '06 500 hybrid gills----88 smallmouth bass---300 fathead minnows

March '07 20 channel catfish----3 amurs

The shellcrackers(red ear) I caught 2 in the spring of '06 and they were huge after just being stocked the previous Aug.----I haven't caught one since.

The smallmouths ,perch and channels are doing great. I feed pellets during spring through fall 3 times a week. only fish that eat it are the cats and gills.

I'm starting to regret adding the hybrid gills.......there are so many nests and I'm going to have an explosion of more gills. I'm hoping the smallies and perch will get most of the fry but I'm worried they won't be able to keep pace.

Pondfin my question for you my friend is What to do now?
All those gills are going to be competing for food ---I don't want to add largemouth bass because of the smallies. I'm thinking hard on adding walleye, saugers/eye or hybrid stripe bass to check down the gills. I don't think the smallmouths can dent the gill population to make a difference. I can't fish all the gills out either. It'd take forever.

I checked Fender Fish Hatchery website and they have smallmouth for a $1 an inch. they are in the 3-4 in range.


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## beemoth

I've got a few smallies bigger than the one pictured. I'm pretty sure they're not eating 4"+ gills.


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## crittergitter

I would venture to say the channels will help you out a lot once they mature, but until then I think you need to be harvesting some bluegills.

My dream pond would have Channel cats, smallies, yellow perch and crappie. Though, I imagine it would be tough to keep bluegill out unless you can keep every last duck and goose out of your pond 24/7.


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## [email protected]

I wouldn't be worried about the Hybrid bluegill in your case Beemoth. They should be between 90 and 98% male. You might have 400 nests (males build nests) but none or very few will find a partner. Smallmouth are very capable predators as are the perch and they'll quickly take out any fry that are produced by chance. I think it's much more likely that the smallmouth or perch will quickly or already have outgrown the food being produced/provided in your pond. Maybe the hybrid bluegill, smallmouth and perch will feed off each others young? You're missing a forage fish...how about golden shiners? I'm not sure what fish would eat a 7" bluegill that wouldn't just as readily eat a 9" perch.


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## Fishman

Wow, you've got a lot of mouths to feed in that pond. Only 50 redears? Out of the box you stocked about 4 fatheads to every predator. Then the following year 500 hybrid gills. More mouths to feed, and really don't add any "baitfish" to the pond. Do you have an abundant redear population? They're on the nest now and should be easy to spot from the bank. Looks like you're pellet feeding judging by the perch photo.

I can only assume I missed something here, but I'de highly recommend adding some bluegills. Like pondfin said, you might have a lot of nesting hybrid gills but you're not hardly going to actually see any offspring.


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## beemoth

The perch photo was taken this spring and they're eating something other than pellets. The ones eating the pellets are cats & gills.
I stocked the hybrid gills knowing that 90% + would be male and hopefully keep thier numbers down. I think some regular gills were in the batch when I bought the hybrids because how else would you get so many. Some are too small to take a pellet into thier mouth. 
The red-ear have to be in there somewhere cause I never seen them floating belly up. Always heard they're harder to catch than the reg. gills. I caught 2 last spring on a hook and worm near shore and they were huge. 
I'm going to take some pics of my gills to see what you think. They don't look like hybrids to me.
Think I'll quit pellet feeding so the channels can eat the small gills.

I know this for a fact------------put a fathead minnow on a hook and BAM ........smallmouth, perch or gill right now.


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## Lundy

beemoth,

Where is your pond located?

I have some channels between 5-8 pounds that you can have if you have a way to transport them from my pond to yours. I live in the Grove City Ohio area.

I have around 35 cats and I am going to do my best to remove them all soon. My 87 year old mother is coming to visit in a couple of weeks and she will catch some and we will eat a few, but I would prefer to transplant the majority elsewhere to someone that can use them rather than just kill them all. They are feed eating machines. They may end up in Big Darby (if legal), it is only a mile from my home.


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## crittergitter

I am reasonably sure transporting fish from public to private is ok, but transporting from private to public is a big No-No. You can't shoot the geese and you can't dump your catfish into the Darby(not that I would care).
Don't want to see you get in any trouble over a fish. 



Lundy said:


> beemoth,
> 
> Where is your pond located?
> 
> I have some channels between 5-8 pounds that you can have if you have a way to transport them from my pond to yours. I live in the Grove City Ohio area.
> 
> I have around 35 cats and I am going to do my best to remove them all soon. My 87 year old mother is coming to visit in a couple of weeks and she will catch some and we will eat a few, but I would prefer to transplant the majority elsewhere to someone that can use them rather than just kill them all. They are feed eating machines. They may end up in Big Darby (if legal), it is only a mile from my home.


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## Lundy

Critter,

That was my thought also about the transfer of the cats to the Darby, that's why I said if legal, I had not checked but thought that is how it is.

By the way I won the goose war this year and not one goose lost it's life. I WANTED to kill them, but I didn't


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## [email protected]

Beemoth, it is also possible that your hybrid bluegill are crossing with the redears. The hybrid bluegill could be taking up all the best spawning areas and when fish can't find a mate of the same species, sometimes they'll settle for next best thing. You may try dropping in a minnow trap baited with some pellets to see what you catch.


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## beemoth

PondFin I never thought the red-ear & hybrid gills would mix like that.
i'll try the minnow trap/pellet combo just to see what happens. here's a pic of a couple gills i caught and they don't look like hybrids---cause that's what I stocked. What do you think ? ? 

Lundy
I'm up around mansfield area. If I was closer to you I'd take you up on a couple of those big cats. thanks for the offer though.


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## [email protected]

I'd say those are 100% native bluegill. What do your hybrids look like? How do they compare size wise right now?


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## beemoth

hybrids are as big or bigger and have a lot more yellow on belly and fins.

the 500 I stocked must've had some reg's mixed in the batch.

too many small ones not counting what will be spawned out from this year. 

don't know if the perch and smallies can keep the numbers down. 

should I think about adding another predator ;like sauger/saugeye....walleye or hybrid striped bass? or just wait for the channel cats to get a little bigger? the cats right now are at least 14-16 inch size. If i add another predator I'm thinking it would focus on the perch more than the gills. any thoughts welcomed:T


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## Fishman

Those are definitally bluegill. How big we're those smallies and perch when they went in?


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## [email protected]

Beemoth, You're probably a long way from too many bluegill. The latest stocking recommendations are saying more like 2000 bluegill per acre for big bass ponds with 50 to 100 bass stocked. You have lot's of predators, too many for the amount of forage stocked. I can't immagine how you'd ever have an overpopulation of bluegill. 

IMHO No more predators should be stocked. I expect your going to hit a wall on predator growth very soon. Your existing predator demand on forage is growing and will continue to grow. Stocking more predators will only make things worse. You should stock more native bluegill and remove the hybrids whenever caught. It is generally recommended practice to stock bluegill (and fatheads) 1 year in advance of small predators. This gives the original stock at least 2 spawns to build up the breeding population for forage as well as the forage base itself. I did this at my place and you could almost walk across the bluegills and minnows they were so thick. It only took two years for the largemouth to overeat the forage base so year 4 growth suffered dramatically and heavy culling of catfish and bass was required to put things back in balance in year 5.


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## beemoth

all the fish I stocked were fingerlings

sounds like the gill population is ok had myself worried there.

next question is this.......

since the perch have spawned what would be in your opinion the correct slot size to keep. should i keep the "bigs" 10+ or put them back for another spawn next year and keep the smaller ones. I've taken 20-25 out each year the past 2 years without much regard to size. 
just wondering what you think.....thanks PondFin

gimme a slot size on the smallies too on what to keep and what can come out.


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## beemoth

no smallmouth-no perch
just bluegills.......small ones caught in the minnow trap


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## [email protected]

Beemoth, it ultimately depends on your goals. Do you want to grow trophies or a lot of fish for the table?


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## beemoth

I'm not eating any bass so I say trophy size on that one and putting the perch fillets on the table. I'm thinking if i harvest 40-50 perch each fall is a modest number and smaller perch would grow faster and replace the ones harvested.


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman

Smallies in a pond:


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## [email protected]

Beemoth, the perch you pictured looks good and seeing the small bluegills is a good sign too. The smallmouth pictured is a little thin. I think, based on your goals, I'd remove half of the smallmouth bass and work toward reducing the hybrid bluegill numbers as much as possible. Around this time in the first few years I could catch 30 small bluegill per hour in my trap and my bass were growing the fastest then. A couple of years ago, I'd be lucky to trap 4 or 5 overnight. At the moment, I may get a dozen leaving the trap overnight in the sizes you're getting but I'm still recovering from letting the predators get ahead of the forage. Keep in mind, I originally stocked at half the rate per acre of largemouth as you did smallmouth and only 15 channel cats. I removed close to 100 lbs of large catfish and small or underweight bass to give the forage a chance to bounce back and increased feeding. I saw some big improvements last year and only wish I had been more proactive a few years ago.

I'd say, once the hybrid bluegill and smallmouth numbers are reduced and everything is growing well you could think about adding 20 or so hybrid stripers. If you start feeding daily, I'm sure you'll be impressed with their growth and fighting ability and probably be a lot happier with the results than with walleye or saugeye.


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## JamesT

nice pondies NSOF! What did you catch them on? Approx how many feet by how many feet is that pond (or approx acres)? I would say the best indication of whether or not a pond can raise healthy smallies is its health/water quality (is the dissolved oxygen high or is it a mucky mess filled with algae and decaying plants?), its size and depth so the smallie can head deep when the temps get warm, and the forage base. Are there a lot of "smaller" fish it can eat? Are there crays and other types of food for a variety? Like frogs, etc? I'd say any pond 2 acres or more has the potential for holding nice smallies. I've caught 2 nice healthy smallies in a pond about 2.5 acres before.


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## [email protected]

Smallmouth have nearly the same temp, pond size, oxygen tolerance, depth and food requirements as largemouth. There's a lot of misconceptions that smallies need more depth, clear water, more oxygen etc. They'd do fine in any size pond, even a koi pond, assuming food requirements and water conditions are met. They're a little more picky on spawning though and ideal forage is obviously a bit smaller than what it is for an equal length largemouth.


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## JamesT

thanks for the clarification.


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman

The pond is pretty much a square, measured at .09m on google earth

The pond used to be loaded with gills, until the smallies took hold 

Now they are few and far b/t (gills) but get along with the largies fine

The pond sustains itself well

Clear, lots of plant life, relaviely deep

Hope this helps

o, they'll bite anything


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## beemoth

those are some NICE pics you posted N S O F

that's what I want swimming in my pond...........NICE FISH PICS

thanks for posting them


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## [email protected]

For you pond smallie guys...I noticed over the weekend in the latest issue of Pondboss magazine, there was part 2 in a series of articles on this subject exactly written by none other than Ohio's own Bill Cody. The magazine should be on the shelf at BPS.


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## Buckeyefisher7

Hey NSOF..ive seen some of ur fishin videos on youtube!!!!fun to watch!


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## jraines

nice fish cant wait for warmer weather


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## Rod Hawg

NorthSouthOhioFisherman said:


> Smallies in a pond:


Sweet John. Thats cool you got Smallies in your pond. I have two 3 acre ponds. The one is deep with several 12ft. holes. Great Perch, Crappie, and Gill fishing along with nice Bass and Catfish. Not much weeds but tons of structure( Weedbeads, Rocks, Brush Piles, and Christmas Trees.) The other has no structure at all. Is forty years old. Has tons of tiny Gills. And has some of the fatest Largies you'd ever seen. Caught one last year that measured 18in. and weighed 5lbs! Was a pig! Its weird how ponds vary. Wish I had some Smallies or Walleye would be sweat!


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## Scum_Frog

Looks like nsot u got some competition...ah ha,.ha...ha.....Great sounding pond though...where abouts in Mansfield are you....north...south??? I work in willard. Wouldnt mind helping ya out with your fishing problem lol.


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## Rod Hawg

Yeah. I live out in good Ol Rootstown. Home of... Well. I don't know what its home of


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