# question x2



## djones87 (Oct 20, 2010)

New poster...long time lurker. Have always fished the Rocky with sucess only coming with flows over the 100 marker. Have the day off tomorrow and I curious if I should try some new water or just stay close to home. Brings up another question...being fairly new to the sport would it be wise to invest the money and do a guided trip at some point? Just tired of only catching fish in the same few spots and only when conditions are great. Any help would be appricated. Thanks guys.


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## FISHIN216 (Mar 18, 2009)

walk the river..I went 1 for 7 the other day on the rocky sightfishing..there are fish in there..you just got to find them


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## KSUFLASH (Apr 14, 2004)

Fish stacked up in all the popular holes are more timid because they have been targeted with many presentations by many anglers hitting them day in and day out. If you walk off the beaten path, and locate fish that have had less pressure, you may find your hookup ratio increase.

-KSU


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## KSUFLASH (Apr 14, 2004)

Also,

Getting a guide for a day will shorten the learning curve. More then catching fish, you will learn what to look for on the rivers, and how to read what the surface of the river is telling you.


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## chuckyhumper (Aug 17, 2005)

Getting a guide is a waste of money!Just walk and find different holes.When you hire a guide all you are doing is helping keep private property on the creeks private!You dont need them like i said its a waste of money.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

chuckyhumper said:


> Getting a guide is a waste of money!Just walk and find different holes.When you hire a guide all you are doing is helping keep private property on the creeks private!You dont need them like i said its a waste of money.


I agree, like Chunkyhumper said, dont waste your money!!!!! They dont show you anything, they take you to all the local holes with 10 other guys standing shoulder to shoulder, they dont put you on fish when everyone else on the river is getting skunked ,,,,,,, there just money hungry.... Look at this guy, looks like he wasted his money!!!!!! 

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=159140


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## banshe2008 (Sep 23, 2008)

I love it! Great job Bob. But please do us a favor, get a better camera! lol


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## Golden1 (Jun 27, 2009)

Well for my 2 cents worth,,, If you have been fishing for 30-40 years and manage to catch all types of fish,,, under all kinds of circumstances then a gude is not for you *BUTTTTTTTT *if you are fairly new to fishing then I highly suggest a guide is worth the money. You can learn a lot fast if you pay attention.. KSUflash stated it best when he said it shortens the learning curve.
For me it was just some adjustments and reading and scouting the rivers because I have over 50 years ( usually 100 days at least each year ) chashing fish under lots of different conditions...


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## KSUFLASH (Apr 14, 2004)

Or this older gentleman that caught his first fish with a guide this weekend.










or this guy










or this guy










or this guy










Anyone who thinks a guide is a waste of money has either had a bad experience with one in the past, never used one, or ignorant in their statements. 

A guide can assist you with learning, and speed up the learning curve. Do you have to have a guide, absolutely not, but for those wishing to learn more in a single day, then they could in a single year alone, then Yes it is worth a guide.


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## chuckyhumper (Aug 17, 2005)

Same guide in every picture!How much money did he make off those suckers!


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## KSUFLASH (Apr 14, 2004)

Guide fees range in price. I am not sure what a guides net profit would be. With Gas prices being where they are, a stream side lunch, flies, gear, etc... I am sure they make a profit, but maybe not as much as one might think after stuff like that is taken into consideration.

There is some truth to be said that some guys like to do it alone, and other guys may learn better by being taught. For someone that has little to no fishing experience and they go fishing once on a weekend every weekend, let me try and break it down.

$30 in gas for a single trip x 3 months of fishing w/ no fish =$360 just in gas for 3 months. You can find a guide out there for less then that, catch fish, learn how to fish for them, where to fish for them, and when to fish for them, etc... and speed up your learning curve.

I tried to weld once, and that was an experience. Not much success. I took a basic welding coarse at a nominal fee, learned the basics and can drop a bead successfully now with not much issue. Hence by paying to learn from someone more experienced, I shortened my learning curve.

Not to mention that full time guides are getting paid to do what they love to do. Many people dream of getting paid for their hobby if they turned into a profession.

-KSU


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## ShutUpNFish (Apr 17, 2007)

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and I don't want to ruffle feathers because I know that some of you guys are guides. However, I will voice my opinion, just because I like doing it! LOL

Who needs a guide on the Erie Tributaries? 

1 - *the incompetent angler* - the guy who has a hard time with observation and who is not willing to learn on his own. This really bewhilders me...especially with all the FREE information that is out there today.

2 - *the wealthy* - he who has the money to affor $300 to $400 to hire a guy to take him to all of his hotspots, lessening any sort of curve by 100%. He basically hires a guide because he can!

3 - *the traveler* - the guy who is in the area on a short business trip and want to be put on some fish while he is on his travels. To me, the most logical client, if there is such a thing.

4 - *the greedy* - usually the wealthy - the guy who wants to hire a guide who has exclusive rights to fish private property which contains not only solitude, but lots of un-pestered fish! Makes perfect sense to me and I can't blame this client sometimes. Especially with the growing popularity of the sport here in steelhead alley.

5 - *the insecure *- one who isn't confident enough in himself or his abilities to risk taking vacation days to go out on his own to fish. He typically feels that a day without catching fish, is a wasted day. 

Is a guide beneficial? Heres my view on it. Guides, IMO are beneficial in certain instances. For example, out on lake Erie where he takes clients out to catch walleyes, perch or steel. Where a client doesn't want to invest big bucks on a $30,000 rig or thousands on gear to fish the big lake. And someone who only fishes a few times a year, just to get away. A guide makes more sense to me.

In this "stream guide" case...we have a fully accessible resource (stocked streams). We see, for the most part, where the best spots are as long as they are not private. All you have to do is take a walk. Look at all the info on the internet about this stuff as well. Although frustating as it may be, its there. Its especially frustrating for me because I'm one of those guys who grew up walking miles and miles fishing and traveling all over the US and Canada fishing moving water and lakes. I investing a lot of time on the water experimenting, while there was little technological information at hand for me to immediately access. There was NO internet...LOL Has our society become THAT lazy as to look for the easy way out of learning anything? Depends on who you are I guess....And learning a trade like welding is quite different than learning a pastime/hobby such as fishing IMO...and I'm NOT knocking you guides either, I don't blame you for taking advantage of what I feel would be a pretty cool experience in not only fishing, but meeting people of all kinds and making some money as an added bonus. 

Finally, I feel that if a person is even somewhat serious or passionate about fishing, he lives in the steelhead alley and is willing to put some time into catching steelhead; hiring a guide is simply unnecessary. Does hiring one cut the learning curve way down?? Of course it does, but what fun is that? I am a total advocate that theres no better way to learn ANYTHING, but through making mistakes and trial and error. You know why? Because it sticks way better in the 'Ol memory banks when you actually F^#* Up on your own. I also think there is a special sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with learning something on your own through trial and error. After reading this, I bet most guides would agree to what I'm saying and I bet most of them learned through trial and error themselves at one time and can relate to what I'm saying. I know and am friends with several guides, reputable ones. I too aspire to becoming a guide myself soon not on the streams though. Stream fishing, for me, is entertaining and gives me something fun to do during the winter and I don't want it to turn into a job. I seriously hope I didn't offend anyone, but as most of you know, I speak from the heart and am a realistic thinker...offending anyone is not what this is about....So in short, unless your hiring a guide because you're from out of town and have a short time frame to fish a new area, hiring a guide is pretty silly IMO. It has nothing to do with the guides, but the measure of the men hiring them and what their intentions are. However, I'm sure these guides could care less either way as long as they're seeing those $$ signs. 

Once again....my .02


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Some of you guys forget that not everybody lives a stones throw from the river. Also , just doing some reading on it does not teach you how to put what you learn into practice. Id hire a guide myself but I cant afford it right now , but for those who can its not a bad way to learn if you dont have any other option. Its a service just like any other , nothing wrong with that. Im surprised to see that some have a negative view of it. As for the guides themselves , what better way to make money than to be doing what you love to do anyway , not too hard to see the motivation. Id love to be able to do something like that


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## ShutUpNFish (Apr 17, 2007)

When you guide, you're not doing it for your own enjoyment anymore. You're putting added stress to your pastime and your reputation as a guide/fisherman by trying to put others on fish. Whether you like or not, its just like any other monotonous job...it eventually gets old and tiring....not quite as much fun anymore. Sometimes, the "others" are not well suited to fish period and THAT wears on you as well. Thats what happened for me anyway and all the liability was too much for me to bare. I've seen it, I was a muskie guide in the 90s...it sure helped when guys I took out actually knew something about fishing. Most of them didn't, the guys who were true fishermen, were usually out there doing it themselves. As I said before, I have nothing against guides and charter captains...I actually think they DO offer a valuable service, its usually the people who are confused about their reasonings for hiring a guide and take the service out of context all together. Again my .02 

Oh and I have never once heard or met ANY fisherman brag about learning what he knows from a guide....I wonder why?


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

Well seeing that alot of guys have put in there .02 and have made some good comments.... Heres why I chose to guide....
I have been Trout fishing 29 out of my 35 years of life.... My father took me onto the Rock when they used to stock it with Salmon. And he basicly showed me everything there was to know at that time that there was to trout fishing... As the years went by and new things came out, he showed me how to adjust to new ways and tricks to keep up with the times.
Well as he got older in life, he kinda got away from the rivers and I kept at it..... I would spend every weekend down at the river with friends trying to figure out how to catch the steel, watching others, asking questions, reading and trying everything I seen and heard.... But I got a system down after years of doing other stuff and found my way of catching steel that works best for me.....
Now at 35, Im a stay at home father and have all the time in the world to steelhead fish. I figured what best way to show and help others to catch steelhead is give some seminars and start guiding.
I always talked to guys who said its differant from reading it and being shown how its done.... 
I guide more for the learning then the profit... 40% of the people I take out are newbies to the sport who have tried it for a couple of seasons and just cant find the way to catch them and god forbid if they asked the guys on the rivers or internet who were for help..... another 50% of people I take out are the guys who have a hard time getting to the river because of work or live long distance and can only get out a couple of times a month and when they drive a distance, they want to be able to catch some steelhead, the other 10% of the guys have $$$$$$ and all the time in the world or live out of state and and are realy good fly guys and just want to be shown some river spots.....
As for some comments of making a $$$$$$$.... Yea, some guides do make a killing of it.... I was down on Chagrin last spring with some of my guys from Chicago, and another bigshot guide came down and fished the runs below us.... He had four guys with him flyfishing, two guys new what they were doing, the other two you know never swung a fly rod in there life....
We stayed next to them for over an hour fishing.... I sat there and watched this guide show these two guys how to fish for 3min out of that hour while he was up talking to the other two guys.... Needless to say, the two weeker guys snagged one fish in an hour. Didnt show them anything, explain to them anything. While my guys were catching fish, John asked me what the hell is that guide doing?????
I went home that night, I looked at what he charged and about crapped my pants.......
From what I charge, by the time i pay for gas, lost gear which you go through alot of, INSUANCE which cost an arm and leg, eggsand the hours sitting up all night making them, flies, food when requested, and other little things that come along to guiding, and tipping some land owners who gave me perm to fish there private land, I come home with an average 30-35 bucks for guiding two guys for an 8-9 hour day of teaching and making sure they catch some fish.... So as of guiding and making profit, I get to buy my wife and kid a nice dinner...What my wife does for a living enables me to keep my price under every other guide in Ohio and I dont need to make a killing off of it.
And dont forget that they may pay nothing as I will return there payment if they feel they have not learned anything or didnt catch any fish or offer to take them out again at no cost to differant locations....
So with all this being said, there is some guides that dont make a couple hundred in profit every trip.... 
Do some guys need to hire a guide???? Ive taken out some guys in the past that I thought why in the heck did you just pay me to fish!!!! And there are guys that they felt they needed to be shown the stuff that was written on the screen and paper so they understood alittle better so they dont need to be spoonfed by others and have the means and knowledge to go out on there own and have a good day....
So as for people needing guides.... IMO, theres the lazy, theres the wanting to learn, theres the rich who has nothing to do and theres the live long distance and dont have the time to learn on there own.....
Theres my .02 on the subject of guides and profit....


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## ShutUpNFish (Apr 17, 2007)

You sound like one of the good guys Rob. Theres good and bad in every facet of life.


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

Well like you said Paul, there is the good and bad... and alot of people hire guides for the wrong reasons some times...
Ive gotten some people who were ogf members, seeing some reports of good numbers of fish being caught and think its always going to be like that.
And its tuff when reality sets in....
For people who are thinking of hiring a guide, ask around and get some info on them, make sure they know inadvance the reason why you are hiring them...... Some care, some dont.......


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## Brian.Smith (May 18, 2006)

Here is my thing with Guides
You are getting paid for what u love to do, good for you. For putting in the work to know the rivers, streams,lakes and Oceans. I still have to wait 243 days on the ocean before i can get my Captains Lic then and this whole time learning the the different patters of the fish. When they go south or back North what bait they prefer, water temps they like ext. AND MOST IMPORTANT MAKING THE CLIENT HAPPY. Because this is a job and if they are not happy we no work.


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## ironfish (Jul 31, 2010)

Dam Bob 30-35 $ for a eight hour trip you truly are a good guy, I read your blog and I can tell your heart is in the right place,and are a true sportsman. I for one would not use a river guide for alot of the same reasons that shutupnfish articulated,pretty much spot on.the only point chuckyhumper may of had was more land may get locked up by the landowners who only will let people who pay for the privalege to fish on there land wich im guessing will be the natural progression this sport/hobby will go.... Not to be a ball breaker but the pics someone posted of all the happy clients with there grip and grin shots sure look like some pay for play water on the Elk lol

ironfish


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## chuckyhumper (Aug 17, 2005)

That is one of my points Im trying to make is the land getting locked up,The guides pay for the right to fish those parts when everyone else gets stuck with the crowds.The landowner laws that make the bottom of a creek the property of the adjoining landowner is a joke and we need to get this law changed!I dont believe for a second the guides dont make that much,why would you waste 8 hours of your day for 30 bucks come on!


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## FISHIN216 (Mar 18, 2009)

Finally, I feel that if a person is even somewhat serious or passionate about fishing, he lives in the steelhead alley and is willing to put some time into catching steelhead; hiring a guide is simply unnecessary. Does hiring one cut the learning curve way down?? Of course it does, but what fun is that? I am a total advocate that theres no better way to learn ANYTHING, but through making mistakes and trial and error. You know why? Because it sticks way better in the 'Ol memory banks when you actually F^#* Up on your own. I also think there is a special sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with learning something on your own through trial and error. [/QUOTE]

Could'nt agree more


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## fredg53 (Sep 17, 2010)

I agree with KSU and others if you have decent fishing knowledge you may be OK without a guide. I moved here a few years ago from WVA but fished all my life for bass cats etc never heard of a steelhead but did some research I got it I do very well but it took me a LOT of time in the river if you do not have goos fish sense or time get a guide you will shorten the learning curve a ton I was lucky to meet buddies who are great steel fisherman who taught me and showed me some spots and how to read water if you have any doubt in your knowledge or abilities hire a guide learn learn learn just to your homework on guides and get referrals like any other business and it is a business bothe god great and bad out there I have had frinds have GREAT experiences and learned a ton from guides I like to learn on my own if you do not have the time hire a guide it will make you better


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## steelheadBob (Jul 6, 2004)

chuckyhumper said:


> That is one of my points Im trying to make is the land getting locked up,The guides pay for the right to fish those parts when everyone else gets stuck with the crowds.The landowner laws that make the bottom of a creek the property of the adjoining landowner is a joke and we need to get this law changed!I dont believe for a second the guides dont make that much,why would you waste 8 hours of your day for 30 bucks come on!


Yeup, all the guides went door to door on all the rivers in ohio and said we'll pay you hundreds if you post your property private... Posted property had nothing to do with guys leaving there trash behind, walking through peoples yards, home owners looking out there windows seeing some guy in waders peeing up against there tool shed, finding empty beer cans on there shore line, camping out, cutting down trees to build fires.....
Try walking door to door along the upper chagrin and see what home owners tell you when you ask to fish there land...... I did for 4 days, and thats what 95% of them told me when I asked why when they said NO...
Yes some guides like the two in PA that leased 4 miles on conny and ash, but dont leave out the average Joe when your pointing fingers as to why properties are getting posted... come on!


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## fredg53 (Sep 17, 2010)

steelheadBob said:


> Yeup, all the guides went door to door on all the rivers in ohio and said we'll pay you hundreds if you post your property private... Posted property had nothing to do with guys leaving there trash behind, walking through peoples yards, home owners looking out there windows seeing some guy in waders peeing up against there tool shed, finding empty beer cans on there shore line, camping out, cutting down trees to build fires.....
> Try walking door to door along the upper chagrin and see what home owners tell you when you ask to fish there land...... I did for 4 days, and thats what 95% of them told me when I asked why when they said NO...
> Yes some guides like the two in PA that leased 4 miles on conny and ash, but dont leave out the average Joe when your pointing fingers as to why properties are getting posted... come on!


Bob You are CORRECT. I recently moved and live on the upper Chagrin lucky for me caught two in the back yard last night. Though I have not had a guide approach me If I did not know them I would be very leary to allow access as i have a neighbor two doors down who let a few guys fish and sure enough I went out to check the shore where they were fishing and would ya believe in this guys back yard was on empty cig pack 2 beer cans old egg container of course the 10 yards of balled up leader I am sick of picking up trash everywhere i go how many no class pieces of [email protected]#$ can there be out there. It makes me sick If we all cleaned up and were polite and respectful there would be a ton more water to fish but these idiots do not get it and it really is sad you are all ruining it for the rest of us. Bob I am sure when you take clients out the area is left in better shape than when you arrived. What can we do about this problem It is hurting guys like me and you. I have spots only I can fish and know the owners and when I take buddies out we spend time cleaning up and hauling out trash we should all make this a priority. It is really not hard to pick up after ones self Cmon People!!!!!


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## Exentrik (Aug 9, 2010)

steelheadBob said:


> Yeup, all the guides went door to door on all the rivers in ohio and said we'll pay you hundreds if you post your property private... Posted property had nothing to do with guys leaving there trash behind, walking through peoples yards, home owners looking out there windows seeing some guy in waders peeing up against there tool shed, finding empty beer cans on there shore line, camping out, cutting down trees to build fires.....
> Try walking door to door along the upper chagrin and see what home owners tell you when you ask to fish there land...... I did for 4 days, and thats what 95% of them told me when I asked why when they said NO...
> Yes some guides like the two in PA that leased 4 miles on conny and ash, but dont leave out the average Joe when your pointing fingers as to why properties are getting posted... come on!


Litter and Rubbish are a major problem on the rivers here. I totally agree with you Bob.. I am not from Cleveland and I am not an experienced steelhead fisherman on the Lake Erie tributaries, I moved here two years ago and have mostly done lake and pond fishing in the area at some of the great State and County park systems here on the east side, mostly for Bass. I thought I would have a little stab at looking for some steelhead this fall for a change, I went out to several locations on the Chagrin river this week and I could not believe the amount of clutter hanging around in and out of the river system. There was an immense amount of crap, fishing line, coffee cups, cigarette butts, beer cans etc. I know that it is not all fishermen that are to blame as there are hiking trails, paths etc. for other folks, but I was amazed at what I saw. Too much for me to pick up on my way out..Until this behaviour changes, Postings are going to get worse. I was considering going to some homes and knocking on doors and politely asking for access or perhaps even writing a a letter to see if I could make some friends and also see other parts of the river, but after reading so many posts like this and seeing what happens in the public area of the rivers, it seems like a waste of time.. If even the most avid, and professional, by trade, members of this forum are having a close to 100% denied percentage..What chance does anyone else have.. Quite frustrating.. I imagine it was better 15 to 20 years ago.. We need to start thinking locally about our environments.. My 2cents.. 

Cheers,


Scott


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