# total lead shot ban in MN



## lovemylabs

It appeers Mn. DNR is going to ban lead shot. as well as parts of Ca. this sucks for everybody, cause that just means it will be here next. here is the link if you want to read more, the thread is called "The end of lead shot coming soon" tell me what you think.

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2


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## capt S

why does this suck? if it is good for the animals than i will pay the extra money to see more. I think this is going to be something u see more often even with fishing.


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## WalleyeGuy

Things like this spread like wild fire.
But , other than lead shot is not so bad.
Us Waterfowlers have been dealing with no lead for years now.
It just means you will need to make adjustments to your methods of hunting.
Yes, other than lead costs more to use and you will need to revamp your full choke barrels.
But other than lead is not so bad.
I have always said that "I think in my lifetime, we will see a total ban on lead shot and bullets."


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## lovemylabs

because there is no hard evidence to prove its bad for the animals. arn't you tired of getting jerked around,just because the antis say you should? theres no sound reason that we should have to use steel shot for waterfowl in Ohio,but we went with the flow. if you enjoy selection,that is 16gauge 20 gauge,410 bore and they ban lead shot altogether, say goodbye to those guns.


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## birdhunt

capt S said:


> why does this suck? if it is good for the animals than i will pay the extra money to see more. I think this is going to be something u see more often even with fishing.


maybe they should ban treble hooks, and hooks over #10 for fishing too!!


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## Fishman

lovemylabs said:


> because there is no hard evidence to prove its bad for the animals.



I hope you seriously don't believe this, a simple www.epa.gov search will prove you otherwise.

I can appreciate your concern for the increase in shot prices we'll have to pay, but the reality is it's simply better for the environment.


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## capt S

Thank you fishman!


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## lovemylabs

I have poured over your epa link fisherman and found nothing to show me there should be a ban, what a condor in Ca. ate a gutpile from a Deer and died oh it must have been the lead bullet.are you kidding me? then why hasn't the ever wonderful 'yote just disappered from lead poison?hummm?
not to mention lead is all natural why haven't we all died from exposure.
you want to beleive evry thing your told go ahead I myself am going to meet up with some local NRA members and start the process of contackting our Sens. and local Gov. this is ridiculus the antis watch theese forums and love it when we argue and I will continue to fight for your, mine and everybody else who so chooses to use lead shot. good day.


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## Fishman

Maybe I came off wrong, but I'm not trying to start an arguement. Just stating facts. You should know there are lot of elements out there that are toxic to be exposed to. Uranium is "natural" and it's toxic to animals. In small quanitys (technically speaking because even a "small dose" is dangerous), lead poses no problem what-so-ever, but repeated exposure, or a single small dose is proven to cause several ailments/death in living organisms. You're right, we're not dropping like flys from handling lead, because the levels were exposed to arn't lethal. If you were eatting the stuff, it would be an entirely different story. Albeit far fetched, some say the fall of Rome was in some ways linked to lead, and the use of it in their watering systems.

Here is a link from the EPA listing some of the effects of lead exposure:
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/lead.html

Another link I found, from a non-goverment agency, but list its refrences:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k7526438747636vl/

That particular article is about loons, which are relativly large when compared to other waterfowl. It takes less than 50 grams of lead to kill one, that's not very much considering your adverage shotgun shell has that much in it (give or take a few grams.) If death occurs below 50 grams, I think its safe to say neurological and reproductive damage starts to occur at far lower levels.

I think as sportsmen it's important that we stay together on issues, but we also must self-educate ourselves on issues before jumping the gun and assuming "the man" is trying to keep us down. Please don't go to officials stating lead is harmless when it's a proven fact it's dangerous.

The banning of lead shot in states has nothing to do with anti-hunters, it has to do with protecting the environment. Enough said!


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## Fishman

Ah, one more thing, I'm not sure you even checked the EPA's website. Simply typing "lead" into their search bar would of provided you with a plethera of information about lead:

http://nlquery.epa.gov/epasearch/ep...te=epafiles_default.xsl&filter=samplefilt.hts


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## H2O Mellon

I dont hunt waterfowl or much of anything anymore, but I can relate to lovemylabs. If we continually give it, we'll end up w/ nothing. It started w/ watefowl, now going to total lead ban.... some states (NH perhaps...?) is wanting to ban all lead in sinkers. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.


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## billybob7059

I haven't shot lead while hunting for years now. I do mostly hunt waterfowl but even when I go out to the fields I still hunt with steel or hevi shot. I haven't seen any problems from shooting non-tox loads. If they can prove the ban would put more birds in the fields then I would be for it.


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## Fishman

Brian, when they start banning harmless things, then I think there is reason for concern untill then I feel we're safe.

When they phased out leaded fuel, did people think they we're trying to put a stop to powerful engines in cars? Or all cars for that matter? No, it was simple an enviromentally motivated choice(well okay there was some tax breaks hidden in there too I'm sure  ) but regardless the bottom line was the enviroment.


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## misfit

i am far from a tree hugger,but i have to say that lead at certain levels is toxic to animals as well as humans.all the hoopla about it isn't just bs.the negative impact has been known for years.


> When they phased out leaded fuel, did people think they we're trying to put a stop to powerful engines in cars? Or all cars for that matter? No, it was simple an enviromentally motivated choice(well okay there was some tax breaks hidden in there too I'm sure ) but regardless the bottom line was the enviroment.


good point.oil companies and government knew about the harmful effects of lead many many years before leaded fuel was phased out and long before the environmental movement was even heard of.the big reason it took so long to take action was $$$$$$.it costs a lot more to put other additives in as it does/did lead.using other additives would have cut deeper into profits.anyone who doesn't think that's true,just do a little esearch on it


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## Walter Adkins

As far as lead in the environment is concerned. Every day there is something out there that is going kill off something, people or even the world. Just since I have been around all of these things have been bad for me to eat; eggs, milk, beef, vegetables (from my own garden, out of a can, frozen yet organic ones are ok for me), chicken is now bad for young girls, fish from all major rivers in Ohio, well you see the point. Organic vegies rule, sounds like a peta ad to any one else. But lead is another story. 

Lead in high numbers is not good for anything. Then again I do not see to many wood cocks, snipe, or grouse or any other bird flying away from me after I put a full 1oz of #7 1/2 in them. Oh hold on I forgot that by pattering my gun I am only getting about 10 to 25 of those 600 pellets in the bird. And then take in the fact that some of those pellets go clean through the bird those numbers go down even more. So by the time something eats the bird I did not retrieve but still has 1 to ,being nice here, 25 pellets in it the same eater would have to eat a lot of birds that hunters left out there to have enough toxins in its system to cause it any problems. I never bought into the whole lead theory when it came to hunting. The numbers just do not add up for most hunting locations across this country. 

Now to the money topic. There are some old guns that are not made to shoot steel shot. I happen to have a few, and I guess that I should just hang them up. There goes that cash. But who cares. I can get steel for almost the same cost as lead in 12ga. Except that my new Browning Citori 16ga will have to be boxed until some company starts making affordable steel shot for 16ga guns. There goes that hard earned money. But who cares. Then take in the fact that steel just does not do what lead does and there has not been a substitute made yet that does do what lead does or cost the same. But who cares we just saved a pigeon that is out side taking a dump on my gun case that is now over my rototiller engine in my garden that I should not eat out of or have things changed again and I can eat my green beans.

Come up with a product that works as well and cost close to the same and I will be on board. Not because I feel that ounce of lead I left in the middle of No Where, WV hurt the environment.


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## misfit

actually lead poisoning is more likely in waterfowl than other animals.ducks ingest the lead,whereas other critters don't.i think most people know that is the reason for the concern,and not a grouse or woodcock flying around with a shot or two in them.


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## PhattyB

Lead is very dangerous to wildlife. Every single animal I shot with it died. 100% mortality rate.


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## H2O Mellon

PhattyB said:


> Lead is very dangerous to wildlife. Every single animal I shot with it died. 100% mortality rate.


Now that's funny right there I dont care who ya are!


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## Fishman

haha ya it was


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## lovemylabs

here are a couple of questions posted on another site.

#1. Do you know someone who has been poisioned by lead shot (other than at supersonic speeds )? 
Condsidering that sportsmen, their families and indeed the general public have been eating game taken with LEAD shot for several hundred years now, surely there are many reports of lead toxicity to support the claims of "demon lead". Where are they? 
#2. Can you provide me with DATA that supports the position that lead shot is responsible for significant injury to the resource concerned? Not an isolated incident but a SIGNIFICANT threat to the game bird, etc.? 

(By the way, if you're looking for real 'killers', actual threats to both people and wildlife, look no further that your local highways/interstates and the automobiles on them)


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## misfit

> #2. Can you provide me with DATA that supports the position that lead shot is responsible for significant injury to the resource concerned? Not an isolated incident but a SIGNIFICANT threat to the game bird, etc.?


yes,but i suggest you do as i did,and do a little research on your own
just google "lead poisoning in waterfowl",and you can find many studies by state,federal and private groups that will provide you with lots of info.even a fair percentage of eagles die every year from lead poisoning from eating animals/birds containing lead shot.
i don't understand why people find it so hard to accept the fact that lead is very toxic when absorbed by the body in certain quantities 
i'm as much against regulation,etc as anyone,but facts are facts.


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## lovemylabs

I took your advice this is what I got.

"How Waterfowl Get Lead Poisoning
There is no scientific evidence that waterfowl get lead poisoning from breathing lead-containing air or from eating plants that have absorbed lead from the environment. Although lead in gasoline  the major source of lead entering our atmosphere  decreased by more than 50 percent from 1976 to 1980, there has been no corresponding decrease in lead poisoning in waterfowl. Birds do sometimes get lead poisoning from swallowing lead batteries; lead-based paint; fishing sinkers and other lead objects; and from mine-tailings. However, in the United States, there is no evidence that such sources are a major cause of lead poisoning."

hmmmmmmmmmmmm this from your site.


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## misfit

> hmmmmmmmmmmmm this from your site.


no it's not.doesn't look anything like the info i've read on MANY sites.looks like you picked the one that fit your thoughts though  
seriously,search all those usgs and dnr studies that i did,and you'll find a big difference,with much more detailed info than................"sometimes a bird might get lead poisoning".


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## misfit

lovemylabs,why would you bypass the first paragraph on that site,and post the one that fit your arguement?

is it because that paragraph is contradictory to the one you posted


> People arent the only ones affected by lead in our environment. Lead poisoning kills an estimated 1.5 to 3 million waterfowl each year (2 to 3 percent of the nations annual waterfowl population). Yet, many waterfowl hunters have never seen a lead-poisoned bird. Lead poisoning is often called "the invisible disease" because it so often occurs without being noticed.


now why would they print two completely different statements i the same aricle?
sounds like they need to sharpen their "teaching tools".


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## lovemylabs

misfit said:


> no it's not.doesn't look anything like the info i've read on MANY sites.looks like you picked the one that fit your thoughts though
> seriously,search all those usgs and dnr studies that i did,and you'll find a big difference,with much more detailed info than................"sometimes a bird might get lead poisoning".


Dude its the fist site that poped up . give me a break I do as you say to do and give you what I find and thats not good enough? please open your eyes everybody. I'm not saying lead is ok everywhere paint, toys, o.k. I'll give you that but the amount coming from our guns, and then we eat what we kill and were not sick. think about it. you gave me direction, I went, your not happy with what I found, I didn't write it, I copied and pasted it straight here.and I'm sorry I mis-spoke it is'nt "your" site it is one you suggested. I will search those sites later my 4 year old wants to play checkers right now,gotta do what the boss tells me.


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## misfit

don't get your bloomers in a bunch now,LOL.i know it was the first one that popped up,but the least informative.i'm not trying to bust your chops,but trying to point out the reality of things,not just to you,but others who believe lead poisoning is not an important issue,or just a "conspiracy" to get more money from hunters by outlawing it.
by eating game animals,we are not in much danger of poisoning.the real problem is those birds ingest far more than we do,and during the digestive process,it get into their system.that is the problem.as some of the info i found will tell you,most of those birds die not from hunters,but from poisoning,and are never found or eaten.
as your link and other sources stated,lead poisoning deaths number in the millions yearly,from lead poisoning.not just "a few" as some would like to think.that is no small,insignifigant number.
again,i'm not trying to give you a rash,but simply trying to provide some info that is based on research,more than just on personal feelings of some others in this thread.


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## lovemylabs

I snuck away for a minute (he has 4 kings I have 0 pointless for me at this point) I looked further and see what you mean as for water fowl makes a little more sense, but as for upland game I just don't see why. I really wasn't trying to just post anything for my argument but what I found. and my bloomers arn't in a bunch( they have toooo many holes for that ;-) ) I know your trying to help inform and for that Thank you. now I'm goon go back and get my whuppin.


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## misfit

> I'm goon go back and get my whuppin.


LOL.i think you should quit while ahead(or should i say behind,lol),
i do agree on the upland birds.the big difference being that waterfowl feed in places(shallow water,etc) where lead shot is much more abundant due to concentrated shooting in those areas.since they need hard materials such as gravel for digestive purposes,it stands to reason,while rooting up such material,lead will get mixed in.upland hunting/shooting is much less concentrated,as are the birds,which means much more area and much less lead ingestion.
as far as humans,my guess is a few shot in a critter for a short period is far less worry than the meat of a duck in which lead has been broken down and absorbed by the muscle tissue,which is exactly what kills waterfowl.


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## lovemylabs

I am glad that i'm an o.k. shot as I stink at checkers. I do beleive we are very very close to being on the same page if not already. I can see that with the Ducks rooting around and all. (scare the snot out of ya)!% I myself am most angry that its getting to uplandbirds and here is my main reason I like to shoot 16 gauge and the older the better, it is hard enough to find shells now and I don,t think steel will work in the older guns my prefrence as of right now is a sweet Sixteen Browning that belonged to my Father. i just wish it would't come to it though I see it probably will. anyway if your my way or I yours lets get some huntin or fishin done together. what say? got three beuties of the lab breed 2 choc's and a yellow and they are fun to watch work. talk to ya soon I'm goin for round two I never know when enough is enough.


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## misfit

i do empathize with you guys who have guns that are not "steel friendly".it would be a shame to not be able to hunt with them.and i feel fo 16 shooters with the ammo availability.i have never owned one,but do know that most who have are dedicated to that gauge.


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## onthewater

One option for guys who don't want to shoot steel would be to shoot Bismuth. It is actually softer than lead and won't hurt your gun. The down side is the cost but when your talking upland bird hunting in Ohio we really aren't shooting that many shells in a season so.....
I know one concern the DNR has is lead shot build up around the Dove fields they put in on our Wildlife Areas. Anybody who hunts those knows that there is a bunch of lead going into the ground in those areas. Have to wonder what possible problems years of accumulation could cause. 
Have shot steel for years at Waterfowl and don't mind it. Would prefer to keep using lead on Pheasants but if I can't, oh well. I'd think shooting steel at doves would make them an even tougher target and undoubtedly lead to more cripples. Hopefully, somebody can come up with and environmentally and price friendly non toxic shot that carries like lead soon.


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