# Head Shots?



## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

Don't shout at me please! I'm asking this b/c my wife is the one using me as a mesenger boy. 

My wife wants to know about taking headshots. Let's hear it from all. 

Again, This is my wife asking Not me.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

I have seen two deer running around with partial arrows sticking out of their skull.  Nuff said.


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

Sorry shortdrift. I was meaning to ask about this for Deer gun season.


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## saugeyesam (Apr 20, 2004)

I prefer a head shot on any deer that won't be going to the taxidermist. But realistically it's such a small target especially at longer distances. I know my abilities as a shooter so If it's open out to 50 -75 yards I'll take the head shot without question. Just remember when you aim small you miss small. I always aim right at or slightly below where the ear meets the skull. It puts them out instantly, but I am using a scoped .50 cal muzzle loader and I'm much more accurate with it than I am my 12 gauge. I killed 2 does last year and both were head shots one at around 35 yards the other one was out at about 80 yards but i had the rail on my ladder stand to use as a rest so holding steady was a lot easier. If you feel confident in your abilities then I don't see any issue with taking a head shot. You lose virtually zero meat due to bullet damage.


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## BigV (Nov 11, 2004)

A deers head is a small target, the kill zone on a head shot even smaller. 
I prefer to make a shot with a much high percentage for a clean kill.


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## crappiewacka (Apr 7, 2009)

My brother swears by that shot, even though he doesn't aim for the head (hits it anyway).....
I have no problems w/it. Chance for wounding is always present.
I've seen jaws blown off.


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## WeekendWarrior (Jan 20, 2008)

About 8 years ago while gun hunting, I had a doe come by me with the lower part of her jaw missing. She was small, one I normally would have passed on. But the humane thing to do was to put her down.

When I walked up to her, half her tongue was gone and you could totally see she was unable to forage. 

A head shot is less then appropriate. I understand that this deer could have been shot at during a deer drive, but a less then well placed shot could also result in this. Stick to the chest shots, much better chance of recovery.........


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Head shots are irresponsible, I don't care how good of a shot you are or think you are

I also hunt with a scoped MZ, a custom savage 45 cal that will everyday hold 1" groups at 100 yds and under 2" at 200 yds and there is no way I would consider taking a head shot for any reason

If you think you are good enough to take a head shot then why not shoot the heart, you waste the lower meat on two ribs, not good meat anyway

Just my opinion


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## toothypike (Mar 27, 2009)

Bad shot to take. Know a couple people that take the shot, and will get some. They also wound deer to. A few inches off and hit the jaw, or snout and the deer starves to death. I don't shoot running deer for same reason.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Lundy said:


> *Head shots are irresponsible,* I don't care how good of a shot you are or think you are
> 
> Just my opinion


========================================================

This shortened quote says it all!


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

NOT trying to step on anyones toes.

A serious question for those that will choose to take a head shot. 

Why do you choose to take a head shot?

Please no wasted meat reasons, that rib meat you ruin is maybe 1/2 pound


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

No head shots for me. I don't take head shots and never will. I'll show my wife these posts since it was her question. I totally agree with Lundy.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Again, not trying to step on toes, just trying to illustrate my position of why I don't take head shots. Wind drift is one varible that is often over looked, no matter what your aim point on a deer

80 yds, only because it was referenced earlier

50 cal MZ shooting 45 cal Shockwave, 1900 FPS (pretty fast for a black powder MZ), ballistic coefficient .210

90 degree cross wind, bullet drift
5 mph - 1.1"
10 mph - 2.21"
15 mph - 3.31"
20 mph - 4.41"


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## ODNR3723 (Apr 12, 2007)

Have done it twice. Once with a bow when my arrow skipped off a small branch that i did not see. Loudest smack I ever heard with an arrow and the doe dropped in her tracks. Second was last gun season with a colt anaconda. Doe at about 20 feet. Not practicing with your equipment and shooting a deer anywhere but where you aimed is irresponsible. I would not have taken a head shot with the handgun at any further range because I would not have felt confident with the shot. I would never recommend a head shot on extended ranges. To many variables.


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## Huntinbull (Apr 10, 2004)

Low percentage chance of a quick, clean, kill. Deer's brain is about the size of a raquetball or smaller. Even above average marksman miss sometimes. Someone said aim small, miss small. A small miss on a head shot is a debilitating hit, not a kill shot. A deer hit in the face can live in misery for WEEKS before starving to death. You miss the heart by two inches in any direction and you hit lung or worst case, a cut across the brisket. You miss the brain by two inches and you will maim the animal. 

Saw a deer a guy was tagging that he had missed a head shot on. The only way he bagged it is his shot cut the tendons or ligament on the back of it's neck and proably damaged some shoulder muscle (my guess after his explanation) and it face planted. It was trying to run while dragging and pushing it's head because it couldn't lift it or hold it up.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Show some respect for the deer. Shoot it in the lung area. Only reason to try a head shot is so you can go brag about it at deer camp. A shot that is not worth the risk of injury to the animal for sure.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i would never even consider taking a head shot with a bow. in the 30 yrs i,ve been hunting i have only taken 2 head shots with a gun. they were both in heavy brush, and the only clear shots i had were head shots. they were both less than 30 yrds. i am very confident in making a good shot at 30 yrd. both deer went down where they stood. i have also shot deer as close as 5 yrds, and i still chose to take the heart/lung shot. it has to be the only choice i have, and they have to be very close before i will take a head shot. i shot expert for the 4 yrs i was in the marine corps, and still consider myself a very good shot, and i still wouldnt take a 50 yrd shot at the head myself. and good luck to those that does.
sherman


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## Roadkil (Mar 11, 2011)

I hunt public land and sometimes you take whatever shot you can get when it is presented to you. Deer dont just prance around broadside all day long waiting for you to decide if that is a good enough angle for you or not to shoot them at.


I have taken head and neck shots with my gun and bow @ 30 yards or less and have no problem with it. Outside of that range I'm less inclined to consider it with either weapon.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Roadkil said:


> I hunt public land and sometimes you take whatever shot you can get when it is presented to you. Deer dont just prance around broadside all day long waiting for you to decide if that is a good enough angle for you or not to shoot them at.
> 
> 
> I have taken head and neck shots with my gun and bow @ 30 yards or less and have no problem with it. Outside of that range I'm less inclined to consider it with either weapon.


I think I've met you before


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I don't care about offending anybody... a head shot is ALWAYS a bad shot at a deer. 

I wouldn't hunt with or share camp with anybody that thinks this is ok and I sure as heck wouldn't want you around young hunters learning the sport.

Sorry, none of you can change my mind or convince me a head shot is proper. You may be great guys otherwise, but I'll never agree with that!


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> I don't care about offending anybody... a head shot is ALWAYS a bad shot at a deer.
> 
> I wouldn't hunt with or share camp with anybody that thinks this is ok and I sure as heck wouldn't want you around young hunters learning the sport.
> 
> Sorry, none of you can change my mind or convince me a head shot is proper. You may be great guys otherwise, but I'll never agree with that!


Could not have sumed it up better myself,great statement.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I am not a big fan of the head shot either but I think maybe some people tend go a long way to the conservative side on the concept. After all I think most guys who hunt groundhogs love to aim for the head. Same goes with squirrels. Yeah, deer are bigger but all are game animals just the same. A deer with a jaw blown off is no more or less mistreated than one with a gut shot, rump shot, etc. They will each die a slow unfortunate death and the way to avoid either is to shoot more accurately. I know guys who have maimed a lot of deer, none of which were misplaced head shots. Just because they aimed for the "right" area does not makes them better than the guy that takes his deer with a head shot. I choose to use the heart/lung area as my vital shot but if someone takes a deer by a head shot I am not going to pass judgement on him. If he is hunting safely then I say to each his own I guess.


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## roger23 (Mar 7, 2007)

I guess if you can't hit them in the head maybe you need to practice more,,,one shot one kill ,,some of us take that slogan very serious.in war and at home,,,


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## Dragons4u (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't take headshots unless varmint hunting with a scope....
But that being said....a head shot is a lot better than a tail shot. I've seen a guy do that and I was just like, man.
Even worse, he dropped the deer where it stood and when I approached him about why he'd even attempt that shot, his response was, "Because I'm good enough to do it."


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> I don't care about offending anybody... a head shot is ALWAYS a bad shot at a deer.
> 
> I wouldn't hunt with or share camp with anybody that thinks this is ok and I sure as heck wouldn't want you around young hunters learning the sport.
> 
> Sorry, none of you can change my mind or convince me a head shot is proper. You may be great guys otherwise, but I'll never agree with that!


You can't offend me here but you are absolutely right! it is a poor judgement shot. 

Lundy, You mentioned bullet drift. Are those based on 100yrds?


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

bkr43050 said:


> I am not a big fan of the head shot either but I think maybe some people tend go a long way to the conservative side on the concept. After all I think most guys who hunt groundhogs love to aim for the head. Same goes with squirrels. Yeah, deer are bigger but all are game animals just the same. A deer with a jaw blown off is no more or less mistreated than one with a gut shot, rump shot, etc. They will each die a slow unfortunate death and the way to avoid either is to shoot more accurately. I know guys who have maimed a lot of deer, none of which were misplaced head shots. Just because they aimed for the "right" area does not makes them better than the guy that takes his deer with a head shot. I choose to use the heart/lung area as my vital shot but if someone takes a deer by a head shot I am not going to pass judgement on him. If he is hunting safely then I say to each his own I guess.


Very well stated. Some of you guys with your "always" and "never" positions need to take an occasional step back and consider some issues more carefully. Hard to dispute this line of reasoning. There are also different situations some may find themselves in as well. When I was in my late teens, my then Girlfriend and I lived in the mountain states during a little worse economy than today. Steady work was difficult to come by and money tight. I owned a Marlin .22 mag with a little Tasco scope I bought at a garage sale for $15 because that is all I could afford. I rented a house trailer on a derelict farm and had a Farmer landlord with a crap load of crop damage tags. Venison was a critical part of our ability to live within our budget and eat well. With a .22 mag it was head shot or forget it. I could not tell you how many deer I shot in those couple years but I can say I never took a "foolish" shot and never crippled one. A properly placed bullet in the head, even .22 caliber, will send a deer straight down. No running, no flopping, no anything, just down.
Today I have no need to hunt for food nor am I restricted to a .22 caliber gun. I would not myself try a head shot on a deer with a shotgun nor would I recommend it, shotgun loads are much too inconsistent IMO. Anyone that takes a firearm out to hunt an animal should know exactly what the capabilities and limitations of that firearm are, and always shoot within them. If they do that then their placement decisions are up to them.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

bkr - I agree a wounded animal is a wounded animal.... wounding a deer isn't different than wounding anything else. Where I must respectfully disagree with your analogy of taking headshots at groundhogs, squirrell, and other small game. Small game animals have significantly thinner skulls than large game animals. I can crush a small game animal's skull with the heal of my boot. If you've ever tried to even cut a skull plate out of a deer, antelope, bear, etc. you know how tough it is even using power equipment. A bullet regardless of weight, speed, etc. stands a MUCH higher chance of glancing off that skull than when shooting small game. And most commercial deer hunting loads in .12 and .20 aren't designed to be heavy penetrating loads, but rather expand rapidly.

roger23 - I partially agree with you; we should *all* practice more. We should be as efficient and accurate as possible. And while we're giving out advice I'd say you head shooters ought to use a little more patience afield.
There have to be very few instances where a man's only shot is a head shot. For me that isn't a shot at all. We aren't talking about any of us hunting for survival - you spend more money eating deer than buying meat even if you butcher yourself. 

I just don't have any wiggle room on this one - it's a bad idea and completely unneccesary the majority of the time IMO.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

cmiller said:


> Lundy, You mentioned bullet drift. Are those based on 100yrds?


Check out this ballistic calculator, you can enter the data for your load and get some numbers that are close to real world. You are never 100% sure until you field verify, but they are close.


BKR, To me it is all about allowing the largest margin for error. I am very confident that I could make head shots out to 100 yds from a solid rest with little wind 9 out of 10 times with my current load with my MZ. My problem is the 1 of 10 that I miss by 2". If I miss by a couple of inches with a chest shot no big deal, head shot different story. Out of respect for the animal I hunt I am not willing to subject them to a 10% chance of being wounded for no reason at all. No one has been able to offer any valid reason yet for taking a head shot versus a heart lung area shot.

No one I hunt with, have hunted with or will hunt with has ever expressed a preference for head shots over taking high percentage shots. I have been a bowhunter and single shot guns and MZ's for deer hunting for as long as I can remember. I am a firm believer in one well placed shot however I also believe in taking the highest percentage shot available, even and ESPECIALLY if the head shot is the only shot presented. I'll wait for a better opportunity or another deer on another day

Everyone can make thier own choices as I make mine. My choice is driven by a respect my father instilled in be as a young man first starting to hunt many years ago. I believe head shots are driven by personal ego.

Sorry, I have to speak my mind when I believe someone is making unethical decisions regarding wildlife that I own just as much as they do



Everyone knew this thread would end up on this path. This will be an agree to disagree I'm sure


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## BassBlaster (Jun 8, 2006)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> you spend more money eating deer than buying meat even if you butcher yourself.
> 
> 
> > Not to change the direction of the thread but this statement simply isnt true. My equipment is all paid for and has been for many years. I would bet this is the case for many except for the guys that just have to have the latest, greatest items. I rarely hunt for sport so 9 times in 10 its simply because the wife and I want some venison. It costs me $43 to kill a deer plus whatever gas I burn getting to and from my hunting spot. The second one if we see the need costs even less!! I cant go anywhere and by the same poundage of any kinda meat for 50 bucks.
> ...


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

Lundy said:


> Check out this ballistic calculator, you can enter the data for your load and get some numbers that are close to real world. You are never 100% sure until you field verify, but they are close.


Where can I find it?


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

(About 8 years ago while gun hunting, I had a doe come by me with the lower part of her jaw missing. She was small, one I normally would have passed on. But the humane thing to do was to put her down.) Thank you. People like you are who i prefer to hunt with. 

My daughter is 9 and i am trying to teach her about a ethical and humane hunt. I would hate for her to hear the views of the minority here and am proud to say I have no room to budge on this subject either as I am with the majority. No head shots for me. We lost a Buck last week and I am still sick about it. Its hard enough as it is, why take chances.


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## JSykes3 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ah, the old "My wife asked" trick. 
I'm on to you.....


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

JSykes3 said:


> Ah, the old "My wife asked" trick.
> I'm on to you.....


Jokingly, You're not on to me!  

I know better than to take those head shots. My dad taught me proper hunting techniques. I am serious. My wife wanted me to ask b/c she was thinking about getting into hunting after a fine family day shooting clays. She had fun shooting a 20 ga although she hit and missed a few. Anyways, the last few days I caught her looking at my hunting catalogs. I got her into fishing. (Started on LE walleye. Her 1st was 23") So I figured why not get her into hunting also?

If there's a question from me, you'll know it's from me.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Cmiller

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

Sorry I forgot to post the link previously


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## roger23 (Mar 7, 2007)

if you can't hit the barn door ,shoot the barn


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## Roadkil (Mar 11, 2011)

lotaluck said:


> (About 8 years ago while gun hunting, I had a doe come by me with the lower part of her jaw missing. She was small, one I normally would have passed on. But the humane thing to do was to put her down.) Thank you. People like you are who i prefer to hunt with.
> 
> My daughter is 9 and i am trying to teach her about a ethical and humane hunt. I would hate for her to hear the views of the minority here and am proud to say I have no room to budge on this subject either as I am with the majority. No head shots for me. We lost a Buck last week and I am still sick about it. Its hard enough as it is, why take chances.





Not beating you up because I have been there with not recovering deer, but if youre teaching your daughter ethics and humane killing what is the lesson on this buck? Based on your statement I am going to assume that you took the high percentage shot yet you still have a wounded or dead deer that you did not recover.

Same may happen with a head or neck shot. You may drop it where it stands or you may wound the deer and not recover it. Who is right and who is wrong?


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## alumcreeker (Nov 14, 2008)

I shot a deer in the head only once ever and that was to end the pain the deer was in I was told the muzzleloader I was shooting shot about 8inches high at 250 yds so I aimed that high and wam drilled the deer right in the spine drop right where it stood but it was still alive so I reloaded put the scope right on the head pulled the trigger and that was that otherwise I would have never tried that shot. Heart lungs are much bigger targets and die pretty quick I would say just shoot for the big target and aim small miss small there

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I have hunted a lot of years and have seen a lot of wounded deer. I would say that over 90% of those deer were from wounds to the legs, gut, rump, etc as opposed to the head area. I am sure that most of the reason for this is because the hunters were not shooting for the head but the point I am trying to make is wounded deer happen all the time and the reason for an unrecovered wounded deer is almost always a misplaced shot regardless of where the hunter was aiming. A miss is a miss. I fully understand and in a large part agree with the arguments made for not taking the shot. I respect the views of a person who would not take the head shot. I already stated that I do not do it myself. I just try not to pass judgement on others that do it, except that if someone is taking that shot with an arrow then that is definitely a bad thing. Chances of a archery kill on head shot would have to be very low.

As Kim mentioned this topic is one of those "agree to disagree" ones although for me I fall more in the middle in that I don't worry too much about what others do.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Of those leg,rump, and gut shots I bet 90% of those hits are from guys who shoot at running deer.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

bobk said:


> Of those leg,rump, and gut shots I bet 90% of those hits are from guys who shoot at running deer.


I agree totally! That in itself is the worst problem.


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## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

Roadkil said:


> Not beating you up because I have been there with not recovering deer, but if youre teaching your daughter ethics and humane killing what is the lesson on this buck? Based on your statement I am going to assume that you took the high percentage shot yet you still have a wounded or dead deer that you did not recover.
> 
> Same may happen with a head or neck shot. You may drop it where it stands or you may wound the deer and not recover it. Who is right and who is wrong?


Good point roadkill! It really dont matter but i was refering to my hunting partner when i said we. I will try to explain a little better. Let me first off say that a head shot is perfectly legal and i was wrong for placing judgment (sorry). With that being said i am no where near a good enough shot or have i ever hunted with anyone who is confident enough to make that shot in a hunting environment. There are way too many veriables in a hunting environment. Its a tough shot and you have to be damb good better than the average hunter. It is legal and I will not pass judgment on this matter any more. Though i will continue to teach my daughter what i feel is right and this may and does differ from some opinions.


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

bobk said:


> Of those leg,rump, and gut shots I bet 90% of those hits are from guys who shoot at running deer.


Or someone who just goes out and buys a gun and never practices shooting it, thinking it's good to go right out of the box. Scopes do get banged around too.


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## saugeyesam (Apr 20, 2004)

I guess I'm the only unethical outlaw hunter on OGF! I'm not offended by any of the opinions against taking a head shot to each his or her own. But I do think the line of thought about me or anyone else who decides to take a head shot being unethical or "just wanting to brag in hunting camp" is a little over the top. Are there guys who do it just to brag about it? Without question there are. However I am not one of them. I don't recall saying I will only take head shots. I said I prefer them if that makes you not want to share a hunting camp with me then that's on you. But don't judge my character simply because I choose to do something that *ISN'T ILLEGAL* or because *YOU* personally wouldn't do it. I have been hunting for 25 years and have killed plenty of deer with various weapons from a compound bow to a .44 mag on up to my .50 cal muzzle loader. Have I lost deer? Yes I have lost 2 or 3 and all of them were deer shot in the "high percentage" target areas of the heart/lung. I have *NEVER* lost a deer to a head shot. Could I? Yes I most certainly could, but what makes that any different than losing one shot through the lungs or heart or liver for that matter? Because it's not "high percentage"? I don't bash any of you for not taking a head shot, it's your decision and you have every right to it and I totally respect that. So why not a little reciprocation??? It's okay as long as I or anyone else follows your line of thought, but when someone disagrees or does something that may be legal yet not personally agreeable to you then they are black balled or labeled? I just don't get it, I must be the only one on here who honestly tries to keep an open mind when it comes to the thoughts, opinions, and beliefs of others, though I sometimes disagree I try not to judge someone just because. I especially love the remarks from those who *"KNOW PROPER HUNTING ETIQUETTE* Where is the handbook for this? Because if you were to honestly ask 1000 hunters just what *"PROPER HUNTING ETIQUETTE"* is chances are your going to get 1000 different answers. This is exactly why I have a hard time wanting to post input on here anymore you never know when someone is going to come at you with a holier than thou comment or post and rip you for doing something that really isn't worth them getting all riled up about in the first place. Good luck to you fellow ladies and gentleman OGFer's this is saugeyesam signing out!


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## killingtime (Apr 29, 2009)

i just find the trail they are traveling heavy and hide behind a tree within 20 feet or less and right when the deer get close i jump out from behind and yell BOOOO! as loud as i can and instant heart attack right there. no meat waisted and no suffering. try it sometime loads of fun.


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## JSykes3 (Oct 14, 2010)

saugeyesam said:


> I guess I'm the only unethical outlaw hunter on OGF! I'm not offended by any of the opinions against taking a head shot to each his or her own. But I do think the line of thought about me or anyone else who decides to take a head shot being unethical or "just wanting to brag in hunting camp" is a little over the top. Are there guys who do it just to brag about it? Without question there are. However I am not one of them. I don't recall saying I will only take head shots. I said I prefer them if that makes you not want to share a hunting camp with me then that's on you. But don't judge my character simply because I choose to do something that *ISN'T ILLEGAL* or because *YOU* personally wouldn't do it. I have been hunting for 25 years and have killed plenty of deer with various weapons from a compound bow to a .44 mag on up to my .50 cal muzzle loader. Have I lost deer? Yes I have lost 2 or 3 and all of them where deer shot in the "high percentage" target areas of the heart/lung. I have *NEVER* lost a deer to a head shot. Could I? Yes I most certainly could, but what makes that any different than losing one shot through the lungs or heart or liver for that matter? Because it's not "high percentage"? I don't bash any of you for not taking a head shot, it's your decision and you have every right to it and I totally respect that. So why not a little reciprocation??? It's okay as long as I or anyone else follows your line of thought, but when someone disagrees or does something that may be legal yet not personally agreeable to you then they are black balled or labeled? I just don't get it, I must be the only one on here who honestly tries to keep an open mind when it comes to the thoughts, opinions, and beliefs of others, though I sometimes disagree I try not to judge someone just because. I especially love the remarks from those who *"KNOW PROPER HUNTING ETIQUETTE* Where is the handbook for this? Because if you were to honestly ask 1000 hunters just what *"PROPER HUNTING ETIQUETTE"* is chances are your going to get 1000 different answers. This is exactly why I have a hard time wanting to post input on here anymore you never know when someone is going to come at you with a holier than thou comment or post and rip you for doing something that really isn't worth them getting all riled up about in the first place. Good luck to you fellow ladies and gentleman OGFer's this is saugeyesam signing out!


That is possibly the best post I have ever read on OGF.


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## cmiller (Jun 3, 2008)

Kudos Saugeyesam.


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