# Need Winchester appraised



## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

I have a Winchester Model 1912 16 gauge shotgun. It is from the first year of 16 gauge production, 1914. 26" barrel, smooth foregrip and buttstock with nickeled barrel. Looks great, but I can't figure out exact model and therefore I am not sure of value. 

Does anyone know of a certified Winchester appraiser, if there is such a thing.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

http://homestead-service.com/appraisals/12winShotgun/default.htm


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

I have seen this site before. You need to know your model for the appraisal.


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## slimdaddy45 (Aug 27, 2007)

that looks to be a mod 12 some of them go for a 1000 bucks


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

Camo Toe said:


> I have seen this site before. You need to know your model for the appraisal.


I thought it asked you specific questions to narrow down what model you have.


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

It narrows it down, however still shows it needs the exact model. I may contact them to see


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## Uncle Paul (Jul 10, 2004)

Camo Toe said:


> It narrows it down, however still shows it needs the exact model. I may contact them to see


You have a Model 12 that’s the Model but if you are looking for the Grade of Model 12 it will be very hard for anybody to tell you what you have. Winchester in the old days would build a gun for you with any specs you wanted not only wood but what steel it was made out of different grades of engraving on both the metal and wood Barrel length choke restriction rib or no rib and would mark and serialize the gun to your specs. I knew at one time you could contact the factory and get the info on what the gun was when it left the factory, but keep in mind over the years it might have been sent back to have something added to it or even sent to a factory authorized shop for other things done to it.But back to your question as to its value. Putting a price on one is like putting a price on a 68 Camaro do you have a #s matching never driven car or a junkyard assembled put together by the kid working at McDonalds


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Your m12, from pictures looks to be a nice gun. Problem is, it is not original so the exact model
means very little in its pricing. It has been reblued and wood has been refinished or swapped out.
Recoil pad has also been added. In today's market I would estimate gun would bring approx $500
tops. Guns so altered have no collector value, and would be selling as a shooter. This is based on
your pictures and information that it was produced in 1914. Guns this early should be marked
Model 1912, not Model 12. My advice to you is to sell it yourself. Cabelas type places will offer you
$300-$350, not much better at smaller shops. They will be pointing out same things I noted. You
can't buy a better shotgun than a m12, but the new generation is not into classic stuff.


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## Uncle Paul (Jul 10, 2004)

Uncle Paul said:


> You have a Model 12 that’s the Model but if you are looking for the Grade of Model 12 it will be very hard for anybody to tell you what you have. Winchester in the old days would build a gun for you with any specs you wanted not only wood but what steel it was made out of different grades of engraving on both the metal and wood Barrel length choke restriction rib or no rib and would mark and serialize the gun to your specs. I knew at one time you could contact the factory and get the info on what the gun was when it left the factory, but keep in mind over the years it might have been sent back to have something added to it or even sent to a factory authorized shop for other things done to it.But back to your question as to its value. Putting a price on one is like putting a price on a 68 Camaro do you have a #s matching never driven car or a junkyard assembled put together by the kid working at McDonalds


I will give you a few suggestions to help in getting the value of the gun. Remember my suggestions are based on your hard to view pictures. Your gun looks like non factory wood based on the lack of checkering and the forearm wood is not in the style that came on the gun when it was made in that time frame. The butt pad is not a factory item and the overall look of the gun is good it looks to be refinished so to the Winchester collector those are turn offs. But a few things you have that will increase value over a stock model 12 are that it’s a 16 gauge. Look at its markings if all #s match it’s a plus and if it is marked Trap or Skeet that’s a plus, most 16 gauge barrels were marked Mod for the choke if yours is different this will add value but only if it hasn’t been changed. There is a Blue book of Gun Values that will give you a good number for value of the gun.Im sorry I can’t be more specific about you question but one thing you can do is go visit your local Trap or skeet club and ask them for help the Model 12 was and still is a very popular gun for Trap and Skeet and the members can be a great help.


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated.

I will keep trying to find an appraiser.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

I was thinking model 12 too....interested in appraisal....selling ? just curious


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

Thinking about selling, depending on value.


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## jeff rod builder (Sep 21, 2014)

you may want to contact and or take it to Jaquas


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

3 hours each way for me. I may need to wait until I am out that way!


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Forgive me for suggesting this if it was the first thing you tried but, as mentioned earlier, Winchester itself can be a great resource of information. Years ago I had a few very nice model 73 lever guns and to get info on them I would send my serial number off of the gun to Winchester and, with that, they sent me all of the exact manufacture info on the firearm. I even paid a fee, I believe it was $75, and received a bunch of written info on a 32/20 I had including who originally ordered it and how they asked it be fitted. It made a nice attachment to the piece when I sold it. Look up Cody Firearms Records Office and there is probably a link to these services and I believe some gun numbers can be researched instantly online, free.

For value, again like mentioned before, you are really going to need an appraisal. This gun is absolutely beautiful in the three pictures you posted but it has custom features that affect the value. The lack of checkering on the stock and fore end, in fact the fore end may originally might have had a tootsie-roll ribbed style grip. Or it may have been ordered special, as several were, who the heck knows. The receiver is also in ridiculous shape in the photo, seldom does anyone's steel fair that well over 100 years time. Anyway, no criticism in my comments as I have no issue with folks adding custom touches to classic pieces and I'm also fine with a gun that has been restored for reason. Some classic gun folks hate that. I for one would like to know what you are able to learn about it, please post your findings. It is really a nice looking piece.


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

Will do and thanks.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

If you have a original gun it is worth getting it papered. At $75, and I'm not sure what the cost is
now, you will be losing a large percent of your selling price. Your best bet is to take it around to as
many shops as possible and offer to sell it. Take highest offer and double it. If you read the preface
in Gun Traders, Blue Book, ect, it will describe these redone guns. Another good way is to look up
gun in book just to see what a original is going for. The purplish cast in blue is common on Win
reblues. No matter how good the refinish is, the gun will not bring price of original gun in equal
shape.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

Where abouts do you reside. Anywhere close to Newark?


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## Camo Toe (Jul 8, 2016)

Youngstown


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

I knew someone in Newark, I guess I'd give these guys a call and see if they could help..
http://www.kikoauctions.com/


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

I've been collecting Mod 12's since i was 18 so I think I can talk to the value somewhat. A good 16 gauge of any vintage (year) all original wood and blue, used but solid depending on the wear can go from $400 to $600. Asking is one thing, selling is another. Do you have the serial that matches 1914 or earlier? They were also built in 1912 and 1913 but never hit the streets until cataloged in 1914. The wood was added to yours which makes it a nice looking shooter and the blue which is very subjective has been redone. The mechanics such as the take-up ring, timing, etc can't be checked here so that also goes with or against the value. I believe Winchester only built one model (standard field grade) in the 16, I have never, after handling bunches (lots) saw an upgraded 16 thru either Simmons or Winchester like the .410, 20, and 12. I'm not saying there's not one out there but I've never seen one. The Trap and Skeet shooting industry catered to the other bores with classes leaving the 16 to sit quietly in the corner. I'm not going to set a value on yours knowing what it may sell for, that's totally up to you the seller. I mainly collect 12 gauge guns with a very few 20's thrown in. Just think.. a 100 year old gun that operates like new?? how many can say that about other mass produced guns?? not many. And it will last another 100 years.

Let me add after doing more reading of posts, When you purchased a Mod 12 or Model 1912 in your case (they changed to Mod 12 in 1919 but same gun) you could send your standard 12 back to Winchester for custom upgrades. All the guns were sent to Simmons for these upgrades Wood, Ribs, Engraving, and if you had the Trap Upgrade which included the rib it was RE-BLUED, and did not take away from the value because it was a Factory upgrade and built in a very obvious patterns. Simmons built many, many barrels and ribs for Winchester that went on the factory produced guns for many years (probably till the era end), you just need to know what your looking at to put a value on it. Blueing means nothing to me if it was done by the factory or (Simmons) I can spot a blue job done by a local a mile away.


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

When you decide on an asking price, please shoot me a PM..


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## capt j-rod (Feb 14, 2008)

I too have handled many winchesters. Your gun is as described by others. Upgraded wood, recoil pad etc. They are magnificent guns. I agree that I have never seen a "factory" trap 16. The $500 price is fair. I personally wouldn't buy for my collection due to the mods. A trap or skeet shooter would be interested in it. The 16 is a great round. Europeans value them as the best upland game round. Great piece, you win either way!


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## Uncle Paul (Jul 10, 2004)

capt j-rod said:


> I too have handled many winchesters. Your gun is as described by others. Upgraded wood, recoil pad etc. They are magnificent guns. I agree that I have never seen a "factory" trap 16. The $500 price is fair. I personally wouldn't buy for my collection due to the mods. A trap or skeet shooter would be interested in it. The 16 is a great round. Europeans value them as the best upland game round. Great piece, you win either way!


Guys I have been shooting trap for over 30 years and when I first started it seemed like every other guy shot a Model 12 so I have handled an owned a lot of them. I have at one time owned a Black Diamond also several Pigeon grades all in Trap models two Duck guns and at one time I had a 12 a 20 a 28 a 16 and a model 42 in the safe so I’ve seen a few of them. I also have a good friend that was as he puts it an armorer for 30 plus years at Winchester so he is my go to man on Model 12s.One thing on ribs he says Winchester put ribs on their guns but more often than not in the later years they outsourced this to Simmons, a good model 12 man can tell you if it left the factory with a Simmons rib or if it was sent back at a later date to have it installed. Like it has been said I’m not sure if Winchester ever had anything more than a field grade was offered for the 16 gauge but because you could order one with anything you wanted who knows. Over the years I have seen a 16 with a rib less barrel also a solid rib and one with a ventilated rib but it was not a Simmons rib


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

My dad was a trap shooter back in 50 & 60s. He had M12 Traps, most of them he had aftermarket
wood. He went through several 12s that where Traps built on field guns. I never got into Trap like
Dad, but I've had quite a few m12s. Never had anything except standard in 16g. and I had quite a
few 16 & 12s. 20s, not so many, no 28s. The only one I bought new was a 3" Duck with rib, and I
believe it was Simmons. In my family there were only two repeating shotguns desirable, Win 12
and Brn A5. Never actually collected them but had many through my hands. Trap shooters are never happy with a stock gun, even a Trap, my old man mutilated his share of them.


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## Uncle Paul (Jul 10, 2004)

Drm50 said:


> My dad was a trap shooter back in 50 & 60s. He had M12 Traps, most of them he had aftermarket
> wood. He went through several 12s that where Traps built on field guns. I never got into Trap like
> Dad, but I've had quite a few m12s. Never had anything except standard in 16g. and I had quite a
> few 16 & 12s. 20s, not so many, no 28s. The only one I bought new was a 3" Duck with rib, and I
> ...


Yep have seen many built up guns and the ones done by the factory can look very nice but the one built by the kitchen sink gunsmiths can be nightmares A word of caution when looking at a higher grade of gun before buying get it checked out I have seen guns marked Trap and Pigeon that were marked with a non Winchester stamp a gunsmith had them made to make a few bucks, the pigeon was easy to spot It was backwards. The only one I have left is a Factory Trap from 1948 still as tight as the day it came from the factory and will keep this one. The only other one I wish I had back was a duck gun that I sent back for trap wood and Simmons rib did more hunting with it than I shot it for trap.


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

Uncle Paul,
Started shooting 12's back in the 60's and still shoot them today, been thru many different guns to try, like Perazzi, Browning, Ljudic, just to name a few. Never really liked the feel of them but the 12 has a feel and swing all of its own. You spoke of the ribs, the upgrade guns sent back were ribbed by Simmons but on the left side where you would see Simmons Gun Specialty stamped on the rib of a built-up gun sent by a customer would not be there. There were no stamping's on a factory upgrade. Simmons started applying ribs after the mill-rib, Winchester did the machining to the barrel and rib in their shop. Guns like the 3 pin, Rnd Post, Round Post/Doughnut Base although factory guns, were done by Simmons, still have a few of each. 

Drm50, 
I have an original Rnd Post/Doughnut Base 3" gun in a 30" barrel that Timmy at Simmons was trying to buy from me. That configuration was only produced 1 year and in limited production. I took the original weighted stock and forearm off and built a beautiful Exhibition grade stock and forearm in B-Carve for it. What a beauty.. less than 100 rounds thru it.. had to shoot it.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

Slatebar said:


> When you decide on an asking price, please shoot me a PM..


shoot me one too i don't care if its redone i'll hunt it well have a silent auction


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## Uncle Paul (Jul 10, 2004)

Saugeye Tom said:


> shoot me one too i don't care if its redone i'll hunt it well have a silent auction


Would still be shooting mine but I shoot a release trigger and could never find a good one over the years I have tried triggers from at least 5 gunsmiths still can’t get a good one so I have moved on From what I was told the unmarked Simmons ribs were put on guns that were ordered from the factory when the gun was built, and the marked ribs were installed on guns sent back to the factory at a later date. Then as time went on that policy kind of got lost and you never what the marking would be until you got the gun. On another note if you get a chance shoot an Alferman it swings and points like a Model 12 yeah I know it’s a single barrel trap gun but when I shoot one it reminds me of my 12


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

My favorite meat gun was a W12 riot that had a magnesium Cutts with screw in chokes and a
Herters rib, and wood. Hunted with it for several years, rib got damaged so I took it off. Sawed 
off the Cutts too. Put a Williams shorty ramp with Marbel bead on the front & D/T action and put
a Lyman 57 reciever sight on it. Had to dress sight base down to flat from a radius. Would shoot
slugs into 3" at 100yds. A guy came along and made me a deal I couldn't refuse, and I let it go.
This was back in the days that every Tom,Dick,and Harry didn't own a slug gun. Most guys hunted
deer with whatever they used on small game.


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