# Pistol Caliber Rifles For Deer Hunting



## buckeye dan

*Reprint with permission from the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation.*

Columbus, Ohio -- A policy proposed by Greene County Farm Bureau member Larry Moore supporting the use of Pistol Caliber Rifles (PCRs) for deer hunting was approved at the 95th OFBF Annual Meeting.

The quorum of delegates from around the state voted for state policy that would support new rules/regulations allowing for such firearms to be used as legal firearms during the deer gun season. These rifles are normally chambered in .357, .44, or .45 cartridges.

The new policy reads as follows:

~ Encourage the use of Pistol Caliber Rifles (PCR) to be included as legal firearms during the statewide deer gun season

Why allow PCR?

1. The Ohio deer herd is healthy and the Division of Wildlife sees no adverse effects to the deer management program by allowing the use of PCR.

2. Ohio deer hunters are asking for the ability to hunt with this type of firearm.

3. This type of firearm is lighter than shotguns and muzzleloaders, making it ideal for youth, the physically impaired, or any hunter who wishes to carry less weight.

4. The pistol cartridges are currently legal in handguns. They have been used for decades without incident.

5. The pistol cartridges are actually less powerful than the newer shotguns with rifled barrels, inline muzzleloaders, and sabot bullet technology.

6. This caliber rifle is popular in the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting. Many participants want to deer hunt with the rifle they shoot in competition.

7. Because it is a rifle with a shoulder stock, it is easier to shoot more accurately than handguns.

8. All states adjacent to Ohio allow PCR hunting for deer.

9. Indiana moved to allow PCR for deer several years ago without reported problems.

The policy has a strong backing from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation and the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. Ohio Farm Bureau was specifically sought out to support this policy as many firearm and deer hunting enthusiasts recognized the political power of Ohio Farm Bureau and found value in having the states largest agriculture organization support a policy that will impact rural Ohio.

Source: https://ofbf.org/counties/clinton/blog/7875/


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## ironman172

so what does this mean....just support?? it is nice to have more on board for this to pass in the future....it would be a whole lot safer then a handgun and better hits on the deer (less wounded) I would say there are more handgun owners then the PCR owners that could be used


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## vc1111

Sounds like a winner to me.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

Is this different in some way then we saw a couple months ago?


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## buckeye dan

Mad-Eye Moody said:


> Is this different in some way then we saw a couple months ago?


It's slightly more detailed than what I had posted a few weeks ago. This is a subject that hasn't been forgotten within the OFBF and that is a very good thing.


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## Saugernut

Does anyone have an idea when the powers that be will make decision on this? Im very interested in purchasing new rifle and Im sure if this measure passes you wont be able to find/buy any of these rifles with the mad rush thats sure to follow.


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## buckeye dan

Saugernut said:


> Does anyone have an idea when the powers that be will make decision on this? Im very interested in purchasing new rifle and Im sure if this measure passes you wont be able to find/buy any of these rifles with the mad rush thats sure to follow.


Consider this. When this happens, it will open a sizable market. The mad rush that you speak of may be incentive for the manufacturers to offer a better selection of actions and calibers than they do now.

I am hoping for some off the rack bolt action options. It's probably a dream but, any of the long brass calibers in a pump action would be awesome.


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## ironman172

I am already set for this, if it ever happens....I like having a pistol and carbine that uses the same ammo


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## Jigging Jim

I just don't get the Hoopla over this. They are not any better than modern Slug Guns with Modern Slugs.


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## Lundy

Jigging Jim said:


> I just don't get the Hoopla over this. They are not any better than modern Slug Guns with Modern Slugs.


No they are not, if better means only downrange performance., in fact most don't have as good of ballistics as a shotgun shooting a saboted slug.

I think some may define "better" differently than you do. The choice of a hunting gun isn't only about FPS and retained energy at range.

What they do offer however is a much lower cost per round and for my daughter in law, younger kids and anyone else that is recoil sensitive a much better choice than a shotgun.

The are a great alternative to a .410 that many kids are forced to hunt with today. 

They are not a high powered rifle that extends range at all, quite the opposite, but they fit very nicely for a lot of people that would like to hunt with them for a lot of very valid personal reasons. There is really no reason they shouldn't be able to.


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## ironman172

will be in my grand daughters hands if allowed for the reasons stated above....I most likely will use the 12 gauge still....in my woods, it's all I need


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## hopintocash2

rounds can also be reloaded, not sure you can do that with slug rounds. slug shooting can be quite expensive. this would offer a lower cost option for shorter range shooting.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

And more accurate than the standard slug gun package.


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## scallop

And not to mention walking the woods with a lever gun just feels right!


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## Saugernut

Thanks for the info and post buckeye dan and I have to agree with lundy on this one.


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## Bowhunter57

I will make a decided effort to go to the Open House Section Meetings, in March, to talk with ODNR officials to get their opinion on this becoming an actuality. I'm not making another purchase without knowing this is going to happen.

I sold my Henry Big Boy, in .357 Mag. about 3 years ago...giving up on this ever happening.  I may replace it with a Rossi, but this time it will be in .44 Mag. to go with my Ruger SRH. 

Bowhunter57


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## ezbite

ill admit it, at first i wasnt onboard or maybe just didnt really care because i gun hunt pa. but the more i think about it, the more im looking at another barrel for the encore


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## sherman51

Lundy said:


> No they are not, if better means only downrange performance., in fact most don't have as good of ballistics as a shotgun shooting a saboted slug.
> 
> I think some may define "better" differently than you do. The choice of a hunting gun isn't only about FPS and retained energy at range.
> 
> What they do offer however is a much lower cost per round and for my daughter in law, younger kids and anyone else that is recoil sensitive a much better choice than a shotgun.
> 
> The are a great alternative to a .410 that many kids are forced to hunt with today.
> 
> They are not a high powered rifle that extends range at all, quite the opposite, but they fit very nicely for a lot of people that would like to hunt with them for a lot of very valid personal reasons. There is really no reason they shouldn't be able to.


lundy you hit the nail right on the head. these guns are much cheaper to take to the range and do some pre hunting shooting. who can afford to shoot a lot of sabot slugs just to practice. and the felt recoil in these guns aren't even close to a 12 ga slug gun.

we have the right to hunt here in Indiana with these guns. if I still hunted the gun season I would really like to have one. I think it would be a lot of fun shooting and hunting these guns. but I only hunt our ml season now.
sherman


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## Misdirection

sherman51 said:


> lundy you hit the nail right on the head. these guns are much cheaper to take to the range and do some pre hunting shooting. who can afford to shoot a lot of sabot slugs just to practice. and the felt recoil in these guns aren't even close to a 12 ga slug gun.
> 
> we have the right to hunt here in Indiana with these guns. if I still hunted the gun season I would really like to have one. I think it would be a lot of fun shooting and hunting these guns. but I only hunt our ml season now.
> sherman


I don't know about the kick being less than a slug gun. I hunted OH for about 15 years, now I hunt PA. But my .45-70 is ported and still kicks like a mule...

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## Lundy

Misdirection said:


> I don't know about the kick being less than a slug gun. I hunted OH for about 15 years, now I hunt PA. But my .45-70 is ported and still kicks like a mule...
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


No doubt some of the proposed legal calibers are thumpers for sure.

I will not have my Daughter-in-law shooting a 45-70 Probably a 44 mag or 357 maximum if I can find one and brass for it.


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## Bad Bub

ezbite said:


> ill admit it, at first i wasnt onboard or maybe just didnt really care because i gun hunt pa. but the more i think about it, the more im looking at another barrel for the encore


Same here! 

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## ironman172

Lundy said:


> No doubt some of the proposed legal calibers are thumpers for sure.
> 
> I will not have my Daughter-in-law shooting a 45-70 Probably a 44 mag or 357 maximum if I can find one and brass for it.


Never shot a 45-70 but imagine it has some kick....I will put the marlin 357 in my grand daughters hands for a few season , then maybe the 44 mag Ruger, no reason to put a semi-auto in her hands till she has a few seasons with a more or less single shot as the lever gun....it takes a action for the next shot from her and not auto like the Ruger semi-auto  ...all for safety


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## Mr. A

After taking some time to think honestly about my position, PCR rifles appear to be a good thing. Hopefully it will drive shot gun prices down some but it will increase lever action gun for at least the first few years.

I think everyone can agree that most PCR's aren't going to extend your kill range farther that current ML's and a few shot guns already reach. There will always be exceptions but overall I don't see that being the issue.

I think the real advantage, at least for me, is in having a hunting rifle that isn't terribly hard to learn to shoot with for my boys, the ease of carrying them in the field, and after the initial craze of PCR sales dies down and prices regulate themselves it gives more options to more people to become interested in the sport which we all benefit from.

I have also wanted to deer hunt with a lever action for as long as I can remember! 

Mr. A


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## ezbite

Lundy said:


> No doubt some of the proposed legal calibers are thumpers for sure.
> 
> I will not have my Daughter-in-law shooting a 45-70 Probably a 44 mag or 357 maximum if I can find one and brass for it.


i dont think .45-70 will be legal. thats a rifle caliber.


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## hopintocash2

ezbite said:


> i dont think .45-70 will be legal. thats a rifle caliber.


here is the listed pcr rounds listed by the state, 45-70 is included.

A proposal was also offered that would allow the use of pistol cartridge rifles for deer hunting. The proposed rifles are the same caliber and use the same straight-walled cartridges that are currently legal for use in handguns. The proposal is designed to allow additional gun-hunting opportunities for hunters that own these guns or want to hunt with these guns. These rifles have reduced recoil compared to larger shotguns, and the proposed rifles are more accurate than the same caliber handgun.

Proposed hunting rifles are chambered for the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.


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## ezbite

that's good news. But saying PCR is misleading


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## scallop

There are pistols made in .45/70. Never shot one but don't think I would be a fan of full bore thumpers in a pistol. I have a Marlin GBL that I absolutely love. A dream to handload for can make mouse farts to ones that will separate your retinas.


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## hopintocash2

ezbite said:


> that's good news. But saying PCR is misleading


sorry, i don't understand what you are saying. how is, "But saying PCR is misleading" well, missleading?


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## ezbite

scallop said:


> There are pistols made in .45/70. Never shot one but don't think I would be a fan of full bore thumpers in a pistol. I have a Marlin GBL that I absolutely love. A dream to handload for can make mouse farts to ones that will separate your retinas.


I'm sure somebody down the line got foolish and chambered a pistol in .45-70 and I wouldn't want to shoot that either. But from a rifle, for deer in Ohio it looks like a prime suspect.


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## I Fish

ezbite said:


> I'm sure somebody down the line got foolish and chambered a pistol in .45-70 and I wouldn't want to shoot that either. But from a rifle, for deer in Ohio it looks like a prime suspect.


Yes they did:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-4570-Revolver-75-inch-Barrel.asp

but, IMO, the .500S&W has more felt recoil.

I think what is misleading is calling them pistol caliber rounds instead of what they really are, and that's straight walled cartridges, which is why the .357 Sig, .400 Corbon, and the .440 Corbon isn't on the list.


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## ironman172

hopintocash2 said:


> Proposed hunting rifles are chambered for the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.


where is the 480 ruger in this list....looks incomplete 
and hard to believe the 38 special is on the list....it was never allowed in the handgun, as I recall .....if so where is the 9mm?


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## buckeye dan

ironman172 said:


> where is the 480 ruger in this list....looks incomplete
> and hard to believe the 38 special is on the list....it was never allowed in the handgun, as I recall .....if so where is the 9mm?


.38 special was on the old handgun list. A marginal round but in +p or +p+, a capable round at the proper distance.

9mm was never allowed because it doesn't meet the diameter criteria of .357 or larger. 9mm is .354.

.38 special also makes sense from the perspective that anything chambered in .357 can fire it. This has myself and several others scratching our heads because the same is true about the .475 Linebaugh being able to fire .480 Ruger.

I hope that someone with a .475 Linebaugh rifle, unable to find that specific cartridge, doesn't shortcut and go with the more popular and easier to find .480 Ruger. Like many have done with their handguns.

From an enforcement perspective, you are nailed for not using a cartridge from the list. I don't expect an officer to understand that it is virtually the same cartridge with a different head stamp and a 4% pressure variance. When in doubt, the officers tend to do things to the letter and by the book and let the courts sort it out.

So for now, my advice is to pick your favorite cartridge from the list and don't sub with any cartridges that aren't on the list regardless of interchangeability or performance. Do your best to attend an open house and leave comments regarding your concerns.


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## ironman172

I thought it was a minimum of 357 mag, and 1000 lbs pounds at one time....then changed to only 5in minimum barrel length and 357 and larger....maybe that's when the 38 was allowed....the 9mm is bigger then the 357(at least casing) but will shoot out of the 357 barrel with a different cylinder (revolver) where the 38 casing is the same or slightly smaller then the 357 casing ....makes no sense to me....my ruger needed a separate cylinder to allow the firing of 9mm rounds through it....the 9mm would not fit in the 357 cylinder (larger casing) to me means slightly larger projectile??)
never really got into the exact measurements, just what fit and didn't.... for what I owned


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## buckeye dan

I think we can all agree the .380 is definitely not a good round for deer hunting. It's marginal for self defense against humans even. We'll all have different ideas as to where the line should be drawn and what criteria should be used to create that line.

With that said, I think we can all agree there needs to be a line to keep inefficient rounds from being used. Well if .357 diameter is part of the criteria, then that is what keeps the 9mm off the list. This is just my observation of course.


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## Flathead King 06

Any news on the passing of this law? I know the open house was march 1st.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

The vote will occur in early April.


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## buckeye dan

The language updates in the OAC will probably be the first tell tale sign.
That can be found here:
http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1501:31-15-11

Specifically (C)(2) firearms.

That may lag behind any official news however. Or those things may occur at the same time. No official word yet but all the signs are pointing to it happening.


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## Flathead King 06

With the purchase of my new 45-70 I hope so. Anyone shoot an H&R Ultra Hunter in 45-70? Just bought some of the Hornady LEVERevolution 325 gr shells, everything I have read seems to be good about them. Any info?


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## Misdirection

I have a .45-70 and use the 325 grain Hornady's. The shoot pretty nice, 2" high at 100 yards is 3" low at 200 yards. You are going to need a sled to sight it in. I use mine for black bear, but a friend used it for deer once. It'll drop a deer in its tracks...the deer probably won't get a chance to blink either;-)

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## bad luck

I still can't figure out why they don't just go ahead and legalize all rifles, even if only in the central eastern and southeastern areas of the state.


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## hopintocash2

Misdirection said:


> I have a .45-70 and use the 325 grain Hornady's. The shoot pretty nice, 2" high at 100 yards is 3" low at 200 yards. You are going to need a sled to sight it in. I use mine for black bear, but a friend used it for deer once. It'll drop a deer in its tracks...the deer probably won't get a chance to blink either;-)
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


compared to a 12g slug gun, how would you rate the 45-70 recoil?


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## Misdirection

My gun is ported, which helps. But when shouldering it and shooting, its no worse than than a pump 12 gauge.

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## hopintocash2

thanks, i know my 12g savage bolt action packs a pretty good wallop when sighting in, so i was curious as to how the 45-70 rates compared to that.


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## scallop

I've an 1895 GBL, would rate the recoil less than a 12 ga. Get a nice recoil pad, Limbsaver is one I recommend. If you reload the 45/70 is a dream. Can roll mouse sneeze to shoulder removers.

I love to load up with Trailboss, can shoot them all day long.

Cannot wait to get out in the deer woods with it!


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## TimSr

bad luck said:


> I still can't figure out why they don't just go ahead and legalize all rifles, even if only in the central eastern and southeastern areas of the state.


Like anything controversial, its best to phase it in slowly and evaluate the consequences of each step, and use the results to justify moving further in that direction. My guess is that if things go smoothly, as I expect, the list of acceptable cartridges will keep increasing, and barring any bad results, other rifle cartridges will be considered in a few years.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

TimSr said:


> Like anything controversial, its best to phase it in slowly and evaluate the consequences of each step, and use the results to justify moving further in that direction. My guess is that if things go smoothly, as I expect, the list of acceptable cartridges will keep increasing, and barring any bad results, other rifle cartridges will be considered in a few years.


That's my hope as well.

I will be going PCR if this passes but the setup I want is very difficult to find so I am not going to settle. If I don't find what I want, then I will wait until the state comes to their senses and lets me use my 30-30.


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## Hetfieldinn

I'll stick with my 20 ga pump.


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## ironman172

I too will stick with the 12ga semi auto, but for the grand daughter, the 357 or 44 carbines would be nice for her.


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## ezbite

anyone know whats going on with this?


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## ironman172

I was told it passed

.
Buckeye Firearms Administration. I received this information from and inside source. They are going to limit it to three rounds not sure what the final decision is on that. They had proposed making you plug the mags, allowing you to put dummy rounds in the mags and even simply using the honor system had been suggested


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## BigV

Although allowing straight wall pistol cartridges for hunting will offer another choice for deer hunting in Ohio, I will stick with my muzzleloader.

Looking at velocity and bullet drop I have come to the following conclusion:

45-70 using a 300 gr projectile will achieve around 1500 FPS and when zeroed at 100 yards has a bullet drop of close to -4.6 at 150 yards and a drop of over -13 at 200 yards.

An in-line muzzleloader using a 250 gr projectile will achieve around 2000 FPS and when zeroed at 50 yards has a bullet drop of +1 1/2 at 100 yards and -4 1/2 at 200 yards.

A muzzleloader has higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory than a 45-70.

Other than allowing 2 additional shots using a 45-70, what benefits are there to using one over a muzzleloader...


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## Misdirection

BigV said:


> Although allowing straight wall pistol cartridges for hunting will offer another choice for deer hunting in Ohio, I will stick with my muzzleloader.
> 
> Looking at velocity and bullet drop I have come to the following conclusion:
> 
> 45-70 using a 300 gr projectile will achieve around 1500 FPS and when zeroed at 100 yards has a bullet drop of close to -4.6 at 150 yards and a drop of over -13 at 200 yards.
> 
> An in-line muzzleloader using a 250 gr projectile will achieve around 2000 FPS and when zeroed at 50 yards has a bullet drop of +1 1/2 at 100 yards and -4 1/2 at 200 yards.
> 
> A muzzleloader has higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory than a 45-70.
> 
> Other than allowing 2 additional shots using a 45-70, what benefits are there to using one over a muzzleloader...


Shooting the Horandy 325 gr bullet at the range, I have my .45-70 sighed in 2" high at 100 yards and it shoots 3" low out at 200 yards. In think the 13.9" low is at 300 yards per the ballistics at their website with a zero at 100 yards. And per Horandy, I am getting better than 1500 fps. I personally haven't measured that...

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## TeamClose

Not even including handloads, there is commercially made ammo that obtains muzzle velocities well over 2,000 fps out of a guide gun in 45-70 with 300gr bullet. There 400 gr bullet that are approaching 2,000fps and for the 1,500fps range that you spoke of, then your into the 500 gr bullets. 

Check out the info below for any ppl questioning if your muzzleloader is equivalent to a 45/70

Taken from Buffalo Bore website

Our 45-70 ammunition is externally identical to SAAMI spec 45-70 ammo, but internally it generates FAR more power and pressure. So, our 45-70 ammo will fit into ANY 45-70 firearm, but is not safe in every 45-70 firearm.

Its use should be limited to the following firearms:
All Marlin 1895 (1895 Marlins are all model 336 actions, chambered in 45-70) iterations made since 1972, all Browning 1885 and 1886 copies, Rossi Rio Grande, New England Arms Handi Rifle, T/C Encore, ALL falling block actions made of modern steel such as Ruger #1 and #3, Shiloh, Christian and Persoli Sharps, all Winchester 1886 iterations made since 1915 and all Siamese Mauser bolt actions.


Never use this ammo in ANY original or reproduced "Trap Door" action as the design is far too weak.

We use only factory stock firearms in recording published velocities, so you get true, actual field velocities with our ammo -- not exaggerated long laboratory test barrel velocities.

Item 8A (430gr. Hard Cast penetrator)

1920 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
1879 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

Item 8B (405gr. JFN expander)

2002 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
1955 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

Item 8C (350gr. JFN penetrator)

2145 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
2060 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

Item 8D (500gr. Barnes Buster FMJ-FN penetrator)

1628 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
1590 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

Item 8E (300gr JHP expander)

2355 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
2263 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

Many a Grizzly Bear, Cape Buffalo, Bison and other dangerous game have fallen to our 45-70 loads since we began 45-70 production 1999. Below is an idea of what type of game these loads were designed for.

Item 8A -- For game where 5 to 6 feet of straight line non-expanded penetration is needed.

Item 8B -- The bullet utilized expands to an inch or more in diameter at our velocities and hence penetration is limited to about two feet in flesh and bone. This is the single most effective hog and black bear load ever devised in 45-70. I don't use it on animals weighing more than 800 lbs as it won't give adequate penetration at bad angles for animals larger than 800 lbs. If you'll limit yourself to broadside (double lung) and CNS hits, this load will work on 2,000 lb animals.

Item 8C -- The bullet we utilize in this load is very tough and gives only a small to moderate sized mushroom (about .60 cal) and because of the smallish mushroom, it penetrates very deep -- about 4 feet in muscles and bone and as such is a great bullet for use on dangerous game and on smaller game too as it does expand some. This load is the most versatile of our 45-70 loads.

Item 8D -- This bullet is a solid and won't mushroom and thus will penetrate 5 to 6 feet in muscle and bone.

Item 8E -- the bullet utilized in this load will expand radically and will penetrate only about 18 to 24 inches in muscle and bone and was designed for use on animals weighing no more than 400 lbs. At 2350 fps it is very fast and flat shooting. (For a 45-70)


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## ezbite

BigV, What is the data using a 250 gr bullet in the 45/70? youre trying to compair 2 rifles using a heavier bullet in one. That's not a fair comparison IMO.


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## ironman172

why are all stuck on the 45-70?


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## Misdirection

ironman172 said:


> why are all stuck on the 45-70?


For me, because I already own one and have been using it for black bear in PA for over a decade...

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## ezbite

ironman172 said:


> why are all stuck on the 45-70?


Because that's the barrel I got for my T/C Encore


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## ironman172

I sure hope it made the list then


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## MassillonBuckeye

My buddy seemed to think that the suppressor issue was tied to this somehow. Is that true? Has there been any movement on the hunting with suppressors front?


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## ironman172

we must have the same buddy, he has been complaining about the suppressor issue and this too


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## Misdirection

Here is the link to Hornady's ballistics. For the 325 gr in the .45-70, their saying 2000 fps at the muzzle. Zeroed at 200 yards, 5.5 high at 100. That's consistent with what I'm seeing with 2" high at 100 and 3" low at 200.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/2013-Standard-Ballistics.pdf


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## Mad-Eye Moody

Your close, but here is the same round from a different part of the Hornady site.


Trajectory (inches)
MUZZLE	-1.5
100 3.0
200 -4.1
300. -27.8


Trajectories are tricky like that. 5.5 at 100 and 0 at 200 can't be adjusted by that 5.5 inches to suit needs as the bullet path is not a true arc.

Regardless, still minute of deer to around 170 yards before adjustments need to be made for drop. Pretty sure the deer that does a flip when it is hit by a freight train of a bullet won't notice the inch on either end of that curve!


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## Misdirection

I am also shooting the guide gun with the shorter barrel which I believe gives me slightly more muzzle velocity, which is probably accounting for a little bit of the difference that I'm seeing at the range.

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## Flathead King 06

Any word about this yet? I know the suppressor law passed just hadnt seen anything on this officially yet.


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## buckeye dan

The Wildlife Council meets on April 9th. Something should be known shortly thereafter.


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## fastwater

> .38 special was on the old handgun list.


Are you sure of this *buckeye dan*?

Been thinkin of selling both the BFR's in .480/.475LB and dies with them as well. These old wrists (arthritis) can't handle much of the .475LB anymore and getting to the point that the .480's even get them to thumping. A rifle in the same caliber might make it worth hangin on to. At least one of them for a sidearm when in bear country.


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## Kableguy

My son took the hunter ed course today and they said no more plugs, that it would now be the honor system. I would still wait for written regs though until I trust anything someone says.


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## buckeye dan

fastwater said:


> Are you sure of this *buckeye dan*?
> 
> Been thinkin of selling both the BFR's in .480/.475LB and dies with them as well. These old wrists (arthritis) can't handle much of the .475LB anymore and getting to the point that the .480's even get them to thumping. A rifle in the same caliber might make it worth hangin on to. At least one of them for a sidearm when in bear country.


I am not sure what you are asking here. .38 special was on the previous handgun list. It is here:
www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Legal-Deer-Cartridges.pdf

The old handgun list however will not apply with pistol caliber rifles. You will need to choose the calibers that are on the rifle list for now. There was some confusion about the interchangeability of .480 Ruger and .475LB. I think they will let you slide on that one but you heard it on the internet for what that is worth.

Before you go with the .480 Ruger in a rifle, I would shoot an email off to the Law Enforcement Section of the ODNR and get confirmation. Just sayin.

Here is the proposed list: 



> Proposed hunting rifles are chambered for the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.


So, yes you will be able to use a rifle chambered in one of your calibers. You may even be allowed to use both calibers if you verify it. Either way, if it were me, I would keep everything you have. In the event you can't use the .480 Ruger in a rifle today, you will likely be able to in a couple of years after the dust has settled from this change.


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## fireline

It passed

http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/wildlif...ouncil-approves-2014-2015-hunting-regulations


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## buckeye dan

I think we've come full circle on this haven't we? 

Some people did their homework along the way and changed their position from intolerance to tolerance or even better, support.

Now that it has passed and we will be hunting with these cartridges, some folks are finally doing their ballistics comparing to the choices they have now based on performance/cost/need/special interest.

Is it any surprise that some are "sticking to their guns" and yes, pun intended.

Grandpas will spend whatever it takes to get their babies hunting while the guy that has spent everything he can afford to harvest the deer specific to his hunting experience sticks with and uses what has always worked.

Who wins from this change? Just asking. Who looses?


----------



## fastwater

*buckeye dan*,

Thanks for the link showing the 38sp.


> It is here:
> http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publi...Cartridges.pdf


Didn't know of that 2006 update.


----------



## TomC

Its still bow and shotgun for me. I don't own a straight walled cartridge rifle and cant really see myself buying one.


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## ironman172

I wonder what the list will be? for acceptable cartridges......exactly how I will plug my Thompson 
more came legal when they got rid of the over 1000ftlbs at muzzle velocity.....and just the minimum barrel length

it's a win, win for everyone....and I believe safer then some using a hand gun


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## nis1

didn't read the whole post so I don't know if anyone else posted this but here ya go!


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## fastwater

The more I think about it, it will probably still be bow, BP and pistol for me as well. More or less laid down the shotgun for deer hunting years ago. 
If I have to quit using pistols due to arthritis in the hands getting too bad in the future, it's nice to know we have the option of the rifle though.

At present, I can stand a few hours of shooting the 44 or 45LC with decent deer loads but the range sessions with the .480/475 are much shorter. What has seemed to help a bit is wearing some gel filled, fingerless motorcycle gloves during range sessions. One thing for sure, if I can't get the range time in I feel I need to be proficient, I won't use it.


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## hopintocash2

i like this add on, i don't own a hand gun and wouldn't buy one for deer hunting, but i like the idea of a more cost efficient long gun round for deer hunting. slug shooting is getting quite expensive.


----------



## Jigging Jim

I think I saw my .30-06 shed a Tear today.


----------



## Lundy

buckeye dan said:


> I think we've come full circle on this haven't we?
> 
> Some people did their homework along the way and changed their position from intolerance to tolerance or even better, support.


I am one of those that switched positions over time. I was not in favor of this change initially but have been in full support for the last 6-8 months.

I have seen the light


----------



## supercanoe

The thing that dislike the most about the new law is that I can't decide if I want a 44 mag or 45-70.


----------



## ironman172

supercanoe said:


> The thing that dislike the most about the new law is that I can't decide if I want a 44 mag or 45-70.


I just can't decide which to use(44,357,45acp).....so most like the old reliable 12ga.....save the other choices for the grand daughter


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## Mad-Eye Moody

The 444 is a solid 300 yard rifle In the right hands. In the last several years I have had 250 yard opportunities so I am looking forward to it.


----------



## Lundy

I really wish I could find an already built 357 maximum and a couple hundred rounds of loaded ammo.

I want one for the reduced recoil and still an effective 125 yd gun for my DIL.

If I can't find one of those I need to figure out the next best to give some downrange performance while not killing her with recoil.

The 20 gauge she shot last year was OK, and I have smokeless MZ's I could easily load down and still give what I want, but I don't want her to have to reload if necessary. 

I want just a simple break action, drop in a cartridge and do her thing.

So what caliber is my next choice after the 357 maximum?


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## Mad-Eye Moody

A 44 mag with the right ammo and some practice will easily be effective at 125 yards. It is very similar to modern 20 guage slugs in performance. Here are some numbers for the hornady lever evolution rounds for .44 magnum.


Calculated Table
Range	Drop	Drop	Windage	Windage	Velocity	Mach	Energy	Time	Lead	Lead
(yd)	(in)	(MOA)	(in)	(MOA)	(ft/s)	(none)	(ft&#8226;lbs)	(s)	(in)	(MOA)
0	-1.5	***	0.0	***	1870.0	1.675	1746.8	0.000	0.0	***
25	0.1	0.2	0.3	1.0	1744.3	1.562	1519.8	0.042	7.3	27.9
50	0.9	1.7	1.0	2.0	1625.1	1.456	1319.2	0.086	15.2	28.9
75	0.9	1.2	2.4	3.0	1513.1	1.355	1143.6	0.134	23.6	30.0
100	-0.0	-0.0	4.4	4.2	1409.3	1.262	992.1	0.185	32.6	31.1
125	-2.0	-1.5	7.0	5.4	1314.8	1.178	863.5	0.240	42.3	32.3

I don't know how it recoils, but I do know the 357 maximum is stout and I would guess the 44 mag would not be any worse but I can't say with any certainty.


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## fastwater

> So what caliber is my next choice after the 357 maximum?


*Lundy
*I cannot see the 44sp. having a worse felt recoil then the 357 max. out of a rifle. Especially if you reload and can tailor your load. 
Also, as far as felt recoil goes, installing a good recoil pad such as a Limb Saver can help tremendously.

Too, don't know what kind of MZ's you have but if you have one something like the T/C Encore then it may be possible to just get a replacement bbl. of your cal. choice and use it.


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## buckeye dan

@Lundy 
.375 Winchester will fit your order. Recoil isn't bad at all. Nothing compared to a 20 gauge sabot. You can also take deer at 200ish yards quite comfortably. A lot of tinkering room if you hand load too.


----------



## Lundy

fastwater said:


> *Lundy
> *
> 
> Too, don't know what kind of MZ's you have but if you have one something like the T/C Encore then it may be possible to just get a replacement bbl. of your cal. choice and use it.


My MZ's are smokeless Savage and Remington 700's, all 45 cal. They do all I need and then some but not really what I want for her, reloading is a little tough since she is just a little person.

I will look into a .375 Winchester, I no nothing about that caliber or what platforms it is offered in.

Thanks


----------



## TMK

I have a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 for myself, but I'm building a 357 Maximum for my daughter to use.

Just picked up a NEF/H&R SB2 frame off of Armslist.

I'll be sending the frame to H&R to have a 357 mag barrel fitted to it.

After that it will be rechambered to 357 max caliber.

There's a lot of good information about the 357 max on Mike Bellm's website. It sounds like the perfect combination of accuracy, performance and moderate recoil.

The only catch is that you need to be a reloader or know someone who can load it for you.

If I wasn't already into reloading, I'd go with the 44 Rem Mag in either an single shot Encore or Handi Rifle. Ruger makes a bolt action 44Mag and then there' the Marlin 1894 if money's no object.

If you're looking for a low cost PCR, Buds Gunshop has a Handi Rifle in 444 caliber online for $205 with free shipping. Ought to be a kicker in that light Handi Rifle!


----------



## jonnythfisherteen2

TMK said:


> I have a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 for myself, but I'm building a 357 Maximum for my daughter to use.
> 
> Just picked up a NEF/H&R SB2 frame off of Armslist.
> 
> I'll be sending the frame to H&R to have a 357 mag barrel fitted to it.
> 
> After that it will be rechambered to 357 max caliber.
> 
> There's a lot of good information about the 357 max on Mike Bellm's website. It sounds like the perfect combination of accuracy, performance and moderate recoil.
> 
> The only catch is that you need to be a reloader or know someone who can load it for you.
> 
> If I wasn't already into reloading, I'd go with the 44 Rem Mag in either an single shot Encore or Handi Rifle. Ruger makes a bolt action 44Mag and then there' the Marlin 1894 if money's no object.
> 
> If you're looking for a low cost PCR, Buds Gunshop has a Handi Rifle in 444 caliber online for $205 with free shipping. Ought to be a kicker in that light Handi Rifle!


If I do get a centerfire rifle other than a mosin, that would probably what I would get. The way it seems, it would be the same price to get, and no real advantage, like being able to change barrels or being able to hunt deer with it.


----------



## ironman172

TMK said:


> If I wasn't already into reloading, I'd go with the 44 Rem Mag in either an single shot Encore or Handi Rifle. Ruger makes a bolt action 44Mag and then there' the Marlin 1894 if money's no object.


Ruger also makes a semi auto 44mag  4 shot magazine and tube fed


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## Mad-Eye Moody

I have heard good things about the ruger 44 mag. It would be pretty gentle to shoot.

The 444 is a thumper at 24 pounds of recoil. I bought some ammo for my rifle that is coming in and I can tell you it looks like an artillery shell. I am already researching recoil pad options for it. It won't be for the faint of heart, but will be a big improvement over my slug gun if the accuracy is what it is supposed to be. 

And if a moose, bear, elephant, rhino or Sasquatch stumbles by I won't be undergunned.....


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## ironman172

It's all placement with any round, in my woods where the shots are never more then 100yards if your lucky ....anything I own will work with out going to extreme BIG rounds ....I just don't see a need, other then introducing my grand daughter to deer gun hunting with a less recoil round....thank you State of Ohio for finally seeing the light and members for lobbing it to pass....a welcome outcome in my world and the only one that made sense to me for the animal too ....at least I see better shots and hits being made with rifle/carbine now....verses hand guns, except in a few well practiced hands


----------



## Mad-Eye Moody

The 44 magnum SHOULD have similar recoil to a 30-30, which is very manageable in my opinion. About 11 pounds of recoil energy. That is less than a muzzleloader. It might be faster recoil though and that effects the felt recoil.


----------



## Mad-Eye Moody

ironman172 said:


> It's all placement with any round, in my woods where the shots are never more then 100yards if your lucky ....anything I own will work with out going to extreme BIG rounds ....I just don't see a need, other then introducing my grand daughter to deer gun hunting with a less recoil round....thank you State of Ohio for finally seeing the light and members for lobbing it to pass....a welcome outcome in my world and the only one that made sense to me for the animal too ....at least I see better shots and hits being made with rifle/carbine now....verses hand guns, except in a few well practiced hands


It is all in what you have for sure. Where I hunt I have spots that afford 300 yard shots. In actuality, it makes it not a great place because deer prefer more dense woods than that but it is all I have.


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## supercanoe

How do the 444 marlin and 45-70 compare on recoil?


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## TMK

Chuck Hawks web page listing recoil for various rifles.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm


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## supercanoe

Thanks. I'm going to get a single shot. I just can't decide if I want a 44 mag, 45-70 or 444 marlin. My dad has a Ruger Deerfield carbine that has been in the safe for 30 years. It will make a great deer rifle now.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

supercanoe said:


> How do the 444 marlin and 45-70 compare on recoil?


Neither kicks as much as a 12 guage pump shotgun shooting modern sabots. But both can be pretty stout. If recoil is a concern there are better calibers, but won't have the same effective range. If range is not an issue, as most ohio hunter kill all their deer under 100 yards, then a 44 mag would do nicely.

If you go single shot then I would recommend finding one to shoot before buying one in the bigger guns. They will pound a guy pretty hard.


----------



## Bonemann

I realize my question is kinda dumb but why do they 
call all the rounds listed PCRs ?

Many of the calibers listed are not found in any pistols.

At one time I did see a 45-70 revolver it was a novelty
for sure 5 shot 6 lbs and 15" long.


----------



## Mr. A

Many of the rounds are shot from pistols, but they are all "straight walled cartridges." I think it's just easier to put them all in a group and label them; hence PCR's. JMO.....

Mr. A


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## mallorian

Being able to use PCR's doesn't mean squat to me since I won't be doing any deer hunting this year thanks to ODNR taking away antlerless tags for Muskingum and surrounding counties. The only reason ODNR is doing any of this is money plain and simple. They are allowing PCR'S to keep Ohio hunters from leaving for those states that do allow them and to try to bring in out of state hunters. They dropped the antlerless tags from the highest producing counties just so they could charge twice as much.


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## Bad Bub

mallorian said:


> Being able to use PCR's doesn't mean squat to me since I won't be doing any deer hunting this year thanks to ODNR taking away antlerless tags for Muskingum and surrounding counties. The only reason ODNR is doing any of this is money plain and simple. They are allowing PCR'S to keep Ohio hunters from leaving for those states that do allow them and to try to bring in out of state hunters. They dropped the antlerless tags from the highest producing counties just so they could charge twice as much.


What!?!?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## TomC

So you can't use antlered/either sex tags to deer hunt???????? Just because there's not antlerless tags doesn't mean you can't hunt. 

Just because you can't have a fork, doesn't mean you don't have to eat.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

I have little doubt that the are scaling back on antler less tags as their revenue has taken a dive with decrease harvest. But it also will help continue to slow antler less harvest and that is what half the people on this board seem to have concerns about.

Yeah, that doe will cost 9$ more with there'll price tag than the reduced cost tag. So what?. I'll be making that up with cheaper ammo for my 444.


----------



## mallorian

TomC said:


> So you can't use antlered/either sex tags to deer hunt???????? Just because there's not antlerless tags doesn't mean you can't hunt.
> 
> Just because you can't have a fork, doesn't mean you don't have to eat.


I could use either sex tags but I'm not paying twice as much just to hunt for meat. It's a thing called principle.


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## supercanoe

I hunted for years when $15 antlerless tags were not available. They were nice, but they need to go away at least for now.


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## Bad Bub

mallorian said:


> I could use either sex tags but I'm not paying twice as much just to hunt for meat. It's a thing called principle.


Those antlerless tags have only been around for a few years... what did you use before???? 

I don't believe they did away with those tags to make more money, as much as it's designed to protect a few more does... the state made a killing on those reduced tags. Lots of people bought them, then ran out of time to use them. At least with the "standard" tag, it will be good for the entire deer season.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## ironman172

mallorian said:


> I could use either sex tags but I'm not paying twice as much just to hunt for meat. It's a thing called principle.


looks like you won't be hunting then, just more for the rest of us....see what you will be paying for other meat in the very near future....it has already started now, and for me 24 is a bargain for 50+ lbs of meat....and I really don't need to buy a tag anyway(land owner) but still do, to comply with the law(if my kill goes off my property) and to hunt elsewhere too, on occasion ....you sure can't eat principle


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## mallorian

Bad Bub said:


> Those antlerless tags have only been around for a few years... what did you use before????
> 
> I don't believe they did away with those tags to make more money, as much as it's designed to protect a few more does... the state made a killing on those reduced tags. Lots of people bought them, then ran out of time to use them. At least with the "standard" tag, it will be good for the entire deer season.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Didn't use anything cause I didn't hunt back then. 

I understand does are more important to maintaining/increasing the herd, but the herds in those counties are doing just fine. The counties they took antlerless tags from are the top counties in the state. If it truly isn't about making more money and it is about increasing the herd throughout the entire state they need to lose the antlerless tags in the counties that don't have as many deer. If the herd in a county is so small that you can only take 1 or 2 deer in that county, wouldn't it make more sense to protect the does there more than in counties that have a larger deer population?


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## TomC

you sure can't eat principle? Sure you can! the key is to use a crockpot, got to cook it low and slow!


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## buckeye dan

TomC said:


> you sure can't eat principle? Sure you can! the key is to use a crockpot, got to cook it low and slow!


That is one of those famous signature quote sayings right there. I like it TomC!

On a more serious note. The $15 tags have worked precisely how they were designed to. When you can no longer use them in the area of your choice you can either:
A) Use them in an area where the DOW wants you to use them because they are needed there. 
OR
B) Not use them at all.

I hadn't considered a "C)" option until now... A tantrum over $9 ensues and the counties where liberal $15 tags were over used in my opinion, recover that much faster because some folks took their toys and went home angry.

In some absurd way, that has to be the mythical "win", "win", "win" for a 3 way doesn't it?


----------



## MassillonBuckeye

Bad Bub said:


> Those antlerless tags have only been around for a few years... what did you use before????
> 
> I don't believe they did away with those tags to make more money, as much as it's designed to protect a few more does... the state made a killing on those reduced tags. Lots of people bought them, then ran out of time to use them. At least with the "standard" tag, it will be good for the entire deer season.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app



I heard that! Tag soup for me this year 

Goes to show that sometimes you can't win for losing.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

I personally hadn't had much use for the 15$ tag in recent years because of the expiration date.

Heck, I spent more than that in gas to get to my spot. If we want to revolt about something affecting our hunting we should complain about gas prices.


----------



## TomC

Last year was the first year I had a left over tag. it was one of the 15.00 antlerless tag. I still managed 3 deer. Ive managed to take 11 deer in 3 seasons thanks to the antlerless tags. I don't have an issue paying 24 for the either sex tag. With the new regs ill be buying 3 either sex tags and 1 antlerless tag for the up coming season, I hunt Fayette, Miami and clark co.


----------



## hopintocash2

got one of my slug guns sold, going to buy a 45-70, i'm leaning towards a marlin 1895 classic, any thoughts, concerns, or some good info? this is all new to me so i would like to get some info. is there a better choice?


----------



## Blue Pike

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/
Cash2 --- go to the 45-70 forum and ask any question about the 45-70, you'll get some good info from the folks.

Some of the Remington made (newer) Marlin rifles are not up to par.


----------



## Mad-Eye Moody

What blue pike said. You should do some reading about the practical application of the 45-70 and the current manufacturing issues on new remington made models before buying one. Most enthusiasts are only buying pre remington used models.

You can get a decent new one but you had better learn what problems to look for before doing so such as cracked receivers, bent barrels, canted sights bad ejectors, rough actions,and poorly fit or split stocks.

In addition, there are not large differences in performance of the 45-70 vs 12 guage super slugs at the range that most Ohioans kill deer at. If you are expecting it to be a huge improvement over slugs in terminal performance or trajectory, be sure to do some reading. Of course the rifle will be cheaper to shoot, probably more accurate, reload able, and let's face it, a lot more fun to carry and hunt with.


----------



## hopintocash2

> *You can get a decent new one but you had better learn what problems to look for before doing so such as cracked receivers, bent barrels, canted sights bad ejectors, rough actions,and poorly fit or split stocks.*



yep those would be concerns. i'm not looking to surpass 12g ballistics, actually i've been using a 20g the last few years and both work very well. i just like the idea of something new and a lower cost round to shoot. i sometimes question slug quality, as i have seen differences from the same ammo bought year to year. one of my hunting partners reloads 45-70, so i'm sure he would reload for me at cost. thanks for the replies


----------



## Mad-Eye Moody

The 45-70 will be a great choice for you then. I agree about slugs. Even my best slug gun had a flier occasionally.


----------



## hopintocash2

45-70 sounds like a good round for me, but i am now a little concerned about the marlin after doing some reading. i really don't like the look or price of the henry so i don't know what i'm going to do. ughh


----------



## jonnythfisherteen2

You could get a handi rifle. Sacrifice the repeater for the single shot.


----------



## hopintocash2

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> You could get a handi rifle. Sacrifice the repeater for the single shot.


yes i could, but if i were going to do that i would just go with my mz. which is the gun i have the most confidence in. i have taken many a deer on the second shot, can't say the same for the third, fourth, fifth, etc. hunting in the hills in se ohio a second shot is not a bad one, sometimes a better one, after that, you're prolly just throwing lead. i'm not ready to give up a repeater.


----------



## jonnythfisherteen2

Ah. Ok. Makes sense. If only there was a semi-automatic .45-70....


----------



## hopintocash2

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> Ah. Ok. Makes sense. If only there was a semi-automatic .45-70....


semi auto not needed, just a second shot sometimes. i typically take most of my deer on the first shot, but, with many, many years of expierence, i have taken a good number of deer on the second shot.


----------



## jonnythfisherteen2

I know, just thinking, if there was some form of demand for one, someone would eventually think to make one.
regarding the second shot thing, when you talk about making these second shots, you make these on a deer thats running at full speed after the first shot, or while on alert, but not running yet?


----------



## hopintocash2

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> I know, just thinking, if there was some form of demand for one, someone would eventually think to make one.
> regarding the second shot thing, when you talk about making these second shots, you make these on a deer thats running at full speed after the first shot, or while on alert, but not running yet?


jonny, some day you will learn, i have been hunting deer for 30 plus years, so when i talk about a second shot, in the hills, the deer don't always know where the sound came from.they sometimes move right at you, and i *NEVER* take a shot at a deer thats running at full speed.


----------



## Mad-Eye Moody

Plenty of good used ones out there. Look for a Jm stamp on the barrel. Hey will be tough to find in Ohio but if you travel check the pawn shops or buy one on Gunbroker. Just get one that has an inspection period from a well rated seller.

Or you could order a new one from Davidsons. They back their guns pretty well. They would replace it if need be. Just read up in what to look for with the Remlins and strip it down when you receive it.


----------



## buckeye dan

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> Ah. Ok. Makes sense. If only there was a semi-automatic .45-70....


There is something close to a .45-70 that is semi auto and straight walled. Check out the .50 Beowulf. In an AR platform the recoil is tolerable by almost anyone. It will jiggle your jello but it's not painful.

Unfortunately it's not on the list of rifle cartridges but you can use it in a handgun and without round limits right now. Effective range is arguable but a skilled shooter with a good brace could easily take deer at 150-200 yards.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVtTJqWlxJc[/ame]


----------



## jonnythfisherteen2

Seen that one around. They say it has recoil equal to a 20 gauge with slugs, and if I remember correctly, can be put on a AR-15 lower, and use the mags as well. Could be useful for someone who wants to use the ar for something else other than varmints. 
And I was a bit curious about that, becaue I always thought deer ran after hearing the first shot. but then again, i have very little experience. Probaby wont be able to do any serious deer hunting until I can drive our there myself and kill my own damned deer and bring it back, the way it seems.


----------



## buckeye dan

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> Seen that one around. They say it has recoil equal to a 20 gauge with slugs, and if I remember correctly, can be put on a AR-15 lower, and use the mags as well. Could be useful for someone who wants to use the ar for something else other than varmints.
> And I was a bit curious about that, becaue I always thought deer ran after hearing the first shot. but then again, i have very little experience. Probaby wont be able to do any serious deer hunting until I can drive our there myself and kill my own damned deer and bring it back, the way it seems.


Jonnyfisherteen2,

The recoil of a .50 BEO is nothing like a 20 gauge slug in a conventional shotgun because the buffer system absorbs felt recoil and converts it to movement instead of sharp, direct impact energy.

Same principle as the suspension system on a motorcycle. There are rigid and soft tail suspensions. Zip across speed bumps on a rigid and you will feel everything which in turn translates to your body. Take the same path on a dirt bike and you can glide over the same obstacle with no discomfort.

Deer can hear a shot and get a form of sensory overload which causes them to freeze. Especially in hill country. They will respond more to the impact of the bullet than they will from just the sound. They know they want to escape the area that is the source of the sound that scared them but they don't always pick the right direction based on echos and such.

Spend more time learning about the deer you want to pursue and less time worrying about the weapon you will kill it with. Your ability to harvest your quarry will exponentially increase with your knowledge of it.


----------



## Jigging Jim

The .50 Beowulf is a Pricey Round.


----------



## buckeye dan

Jigging Jim said:


> The .50 Beowulf is a Pricey Round.


True. This one that would be much more economical to reload.


----------



## handloader

buckeye dan said:


> True. This one that would be much more economical to reload.


Not really, $38.00 for 50 350g Hornady XTP bullets, plus powder (Lil gun), primer and a case, is still up there. It is almost cheaper to buy the live ammunition from SSA, shoot it, and reload the case.

And I disagree with the comments about recoil. It IS like shooting a 20g Slug. I have both the 50 Beowulf, a 20g, and a 12g I do not shoot hardly at all anymore. I prefer the recoil of the shotgun slug over the Beowulf. I would suggest that the Beowulf is pushing into the 12g slug range (real world experience). 

I shoot Magnum Rifles up to a mile, and they are all much easier on the shoulder (to be fair, they are much more heavy, and soak up recoil better, and they are suppressed [the best muzzle break in the world is a suppressor]).


----------



## buckeye dan

handloader said:


> Not really, $38.00 for 50 350g Hornady XTP bullets, plus powder (Lil gun), primer and a case, is still up there. It is almost cheaper to buy the live ammunition from SSA, shoot it, and reload the case.
> 
> And I disagree with the comments about recoil. It IS like shooting a 20g Slug. I have both the 50 Beowulf, a 20g, and a 12g I do not shoot hardly at all anymore. I prefer the recoil of the shotgun slug over the Beowulf. I would suggest that the Beowulf is pushing into the 12g slug range (real world experience).
> 
> I shoot Magnum Rifles up to a mile, and they are all much easier on the shoulder (to be fair, they are much more heavy, and soak up recoil better, and they are suppressed [the best muzzle break in the world is a suppressor]).


I am not sure what configuration you were shooting the .50 Beowulf in to experience 20 gauge like recoil. I guess it is fair to say the motion is comparable but the shoulder hit is not. The .50B I shot never bottomed out the buffer system so there was no pounding. Just a lot of noise and motion. I would note that the gun I fired was built to be a .50B from the ground up and not just an upper stuck onto a standard buffer frame. Quite comfortable compared to any sabot slug in a 20 gauge.

I think you can buy complete .50B cartridges cheaper than you can reload it because the brass is so high. My occupation however, eliminates brass expenses in most cases whether I recycle it or exchange for it. So for me at least, brass expense is not a factor and reloading is always the cheaper option.

Edited to add:
In my defense my only experience with a .50B was one magazine in that one rifle which I don't own. The owner of the rifle offered me a mag and a go at it. I normally don't waste people's ammo because I rarely come across something new but since it was something new to me I couldn't resist.


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## Lundy

OK,

I think I have narrowed my choice down to a handirifle in .444 or 45.70 or a Ruger #1 in 45.70. Little bit of price difference

I really wanted a .357 maximum but ammunition is almost no existant and I do not reload. Next choice may have been the .375 Winchester but hard to find that caliber and again ammunition is very hard to come by.

The .444 in a Handi Rifle, 8 pounds before scope should help with the recoil and there is plenty of ammunition to be found looks like the leading contender. I have a Savage ML11 SS laminate that I will sell to finance this purchase and will still have a couple of bucks left over.


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## fastwater

Wow! 

444 or 45-70 will surely not lack in horse power for Ohio deer.


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## Lundy

fastwater said:


> Wow!
> 
> 444 or 45-70 will surely not lack in horse power for Ohio deer.


Either will kill a deer for sure, I would rather have some overkill than I would underkill.

I am hunting with a muzzleloader pushing a 195 Barnes at 2750 FPS. What can I say, I like performance


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## fastwater

> What can I say, I like performance


Hey, not a thing wrong with that.

And, you'll be ready if Ohio ever opens up season on elk or muleys. 



> I am hunting with a muzzleloader pushing a 195 Barnes at 2750 FPS


Man that's some FPS out of a ml. What is it one of those new Rem. 700ml conversions?


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## buckeye dan

@Lundy,

If you are going for the best performance option from the approved cartridge list, .444 Marlin is as good as it gets (in the factory ammo category) IMHO.

You can rattle the fillings in your teeth with either using hand loads however.


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## Lundy

fastwater said:


> Man that's some FPS out of a ml. What is it one of those new Rem. 700ml conversions?


I have two Savage smokeless that I had converted with 45 caliber barrels a few years ago. Minimal recoil, extremely accurate and effective on deer


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## fastwater

And, I would bet it is extremely flat shooting as well.

Sounds like a very nice deer slayer.


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## supercanoe

I just ordered a cva elite stalker in 444 marlin today from Gander Mountain. $299 plus tax. The cva has a better trigger and recoil pad than the handi rifle. I looked at some handi rifles, but most had some rough fit and finish. I have a cva optima that I really like. For a cheap gun the cva is a shooter and has more consistent fit and finish.


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## Lundy

supercanoe said:


> I just ordered a cva elite stalker in 444 marlin today from Gander Mountain. $299 plus tax. The cva has a better trigger and recoil pad than the handi rifle. I looked at some handi rifles, but most had some rough fit and finish. I have a cva optima that I really like. For a cheap gun the cva is a shooter and has more consistent fit and finish.


Don't disagree with that at all except if the H&R shoots worth a lick, and all reports say it will very well, it will get a new laminate stock, recoil pad, and forearm and I have just never been a CVA fan of anything they have made, just personal choice like Ford versus Chevy thing. They had a great deal for me also at $219, on the blued walnut. At that price I have some money to dress it up a little and still not have much in the gun. Bottom line will be how it shoots. The scope I am putting on it, that I already have, is worth three times what the gun is worth. Weird stuff, cheap guns normally scare me a little but not the H&R


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## supercanoe

Where did you find the handi rifle for $219? If it was online what is the transfer fee and who is doing the transfer? Just curious, I have not done a transfer before.


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## Lundy

supercanoe said:


> Where did you find the handi rifle for $219? If it was online what is the transfer fee and who is doing the transfer? Just curious, I have not done a transfer before.


Vances in Hebron. He had to order it in and said there was a closeout special at his distributor. I don't know if that pricing is still available and maybe he gave me a better deal since I have known him for so long. Don't know

I know they have the Composite stock .444 available for around $279


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## Mad-Eye Moody

Lundy said:


> The .444 in a Handi Rifle, 8 pounds before scope should help with the recoil and there is plenty of ammunition to be found looks like the leading contender. I have a Savage ML11 SS laminate that I will sell to finance this purchase and will still have a couple of bucks left over.


I bought a 444 marlin recently and dreaded taking it to the range. Then I shot it a few times and laughed. It is a pussycat compared to a slug gun. It is very similar to my savage 220 in recoil.


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## Lundy

Mad-Eye Moody said:


> I bought a 444 marlin recently and dreaded taking it to the range. Then I shot it a few times and laughed. It is a pussycat compared to a slug gun. It is very similar to my savage 220 in recoil.


Results of your range trip?


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## buckeye dan

Based on the list we got, I have only been interested in 2 cartridges. The .375 Winchester and the .357 Maximum. I have to admit the nostalgia of the black powder cartridges also appeals to me.

I was hoping more people would research these rounds and create a new demand for them so they don't die off completely. They are great rounds but both are mostly for the re-loaders and custom tinkerers now.


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## Lundy

I can get a gun in .357 maximum pretty easy ( buy a frame and a barrel), but brass or loaded ammunition is pretty difficult.


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## buckeye dan

Remington was supposed to do a production run on brass but they keep pushing the date back due to the demand of other cartridges.

I have an email address for the Marketing Product Manager @ Remington. You can PM me for it and send him an email letting him know Ohioans want .357 Max brass since we can now hunt deer with that cartridge. It might help move things along.


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## hopintocash2

this is a 6 shot group from my new 45-70 with the factory sites at 60 yards. wanted to see where the iron sites were before putting on the scope in case of scope failure.


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## hopintocash2

i only had a t-shirt on, and factory recoil pad. it has some kick, but nothing like a 12g slug gun.


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## Lundy

buckeye dan said:


> Based on the list we got, I have only been interested in 2 cartridges. The .375 Winchester and the .357 Maximum.


Well I am not going the 375 Winchester route but I do now own a H&R 357 Maximum and have secured enough ammo and brass to do anything I need to do. 

I am looking forward to shooting the new Max and the new .444 Marlin


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## buckeye dan

Lundy said:


> Well I am not going the 375 Winchester route but I do now own a H&R 357 Maximum and have secured enough ammo and brass to do anything I need to do.
> 
> I am looking forward to shooting the new Max and the new .444 Marlin


That is awesome Lundy. I did most of the ballistics research that was used in the PCR project. But I can tell you that I did the most research on those two calibers just for me. I made friends with some folks that do awesome throat and crown work for the .357 Max as well.

Here is a great page to look over before you work up your loads:
http://www.dandtcustomgunworks.websitetoolbox.com/post/max-expansion-tests-5614376


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## Mad-Eye Moody

Lundy said:


> Results of your range trip?


1.25 inches at 100 yards on a windy day and wobbly rest and my five year old wanting to go home.

Very much so minute of deer to 300 yards.

I am not certain I will use that round though for hunting as it has a reputation for being highly destructive on meat, one of the reasons I wanted to get away from slugs.


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## Papascott

Any of you have any experience with the rug er 77/44?

Love the looks of it and thinking it would make a goodles gun for my style of urban deer hunting. I have a nova, remington, and mossberg slug guns and they all shoot good but I always take my savage ml but it is a little on the heavy side, especially for my son.


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## handloader

Papascott said:


> Any of you have any experience with the rug er 77/44?
> 
> Love the looks of it and thinking it would make a goodles gun for my style of urban deer hunting. I have a nova, remington, and mossberg slug guns and they all shoot good but I always take my savage ml but it is a little on the heavy side, especially for my son.


I have one, but it is fully suppressed. If Ohio passes the HB234 I will use it for hunting deer. That said, the 77/44 is an awesome rifle, holds 1.25-1.75 MOA at 100 yards, and I have taken hogs in Texas with it a few times. The recoil is very comfortable, and aftermarket triggers can make it a joy to shoot. The only issue is the scope ring mounting system that Ruger uses. I went with an aftermarket weaver rail. The Ruger rings will work loose with recoil. I have a few sets of Lepould 30mm rings that I have used with Loctite on the base mount screws. I like to shoot a scope real low to the action and had the bolt handle modified so that I could mount a SN4 US Optic to the rifle.


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## Papascott

That sounds like an awesome gun! I love my savage ml with the accutrigger if only it were about 20 lbs lighter and a breach loader lol


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## Richman

Just got my 77/44 yesterday from Buds. Shot a few rounds with the iron sights...my old eyes wouldn't let me shoot past 50 yards. Superlight, minimal recoil. Scoped it this a.m. hope to get it sighted in this evening. Compared to my 870 recoil....I'm in love

Updated 6/27... Shot it with the scope and some cheap American Eagle 240 grain ammo last night in the backyard. Within 5 shots had two rounds in one elongated hole at 50 yards. Gonna have to travel to get to a hundred yard range to see what it will do over distance. But at this point very happy with it.


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