# Ticketed!!!!



## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Ok guys I need some input here. I went out to the scioto river on saturday with a buddy of mine hoping to beat the crowd on the lakes. We fished a couple of spots with little luck and decided to try the lowhead dam in prospect. So we get there wade across and start fishing off of the wall on the far side (west). We had been there fro about an hour and a half when we started catching some nice crappies. About 45 min goes by and we are approched by a wildlife officer, I think no big deal we are leagal show him our licences and get back to fishing. So he goes through the whole deal, checks our licenses and checks our fish all good. So I thought. The next thing he asks is if we knew who's land we were fishing on??? Now mind you we are fishing on a cement pad that is part of a retaining wall for this lowhead, that I have been fishing for the last ten years atleast, with no problems.

I replied that I thought we were on public land. He then informed us that we were on private property and we would be getting a ticket. He stated that the deed on the property was to the edge of the water. I told him that some of my family knew the guy and after he talked to the property owner he said that he (the property owner ) did not know us and wanted us to receive a ticket. I asked the officer if we could get a ticket for it not being posted, and he informed us that the property owner posts it every year and the signs get ripped down and that if we looked there were nail holes in some of the trees!!! (His eaxct words) He also said it was no different than going in to a 20 acre woods without permission. I replied that it was not the same as I would know that the woods was obviously someones property and I thought that this was public land. He then informed us that if we wanted to keep fishing all we had to do was fish on the dam, a whole 3 feet away, but to acess said dam we would have to cross the guys land when we left????? He also said he would let us keep our fish and told us that he hoped our weekend gets better.

So now I have a ticket with a max penalty of $500 and 60 days in jail, also this is a wildlife violation so i have to go to court. That is probably the part that makes me the most mad is that I take all the right steps during hunting season to get permision to hunt private property now I will have a tresspassing charge on my record. I have respect for private property it is one of our rights but to me this seems a little out of hand. Wouldn't a warning have been sufficient? I mean I wouldn't have been there if I would have know that it was someones land and they didn't want people on it.The ironic thing is that everytime I go over there I am picking up trash others have left and packing it out with me (as I do at most places on the river) it just happened to be clean this time, I should have knopw something was up.

Sorry this was so long but I really would like some opinions on this. Not sure wheather I should fight it or not. I want to but I am not sure if it would be worth it. The cost of a lawyer would be more than the ticket.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

Everybody is looking to get money...much talk lately about cops even looking for stuff like front license plates not mounted, for example; figure that the ODNR isn't much different.

While your done regarding the property rights, you could attempt to mention that the area wasn't posted; it might be a good idea to go back and take pictures. I figure that it's the property owners duty to keep the signs up. You may have met his son-in-law. 

Ironic is that we are paying the WO's salary through our licenses...not the property owner.


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## DelawareAngler (Mar 19, 2009)

Smead said:


> Everybody is looking to get money...much talk lately about cops even looking for stuff like front license plates not mounted, for example; figure that the ODNR isn't much different.
> 
> While your done regarding the property rights, you could attempt to mention that the area wasn't posted; it might be a good idea to go back and take pictures. I figure that it's the property owners duty to keep the signs up. You may have met his son-in-law.
> 
> Ironic is that we are paying the WO's salary through our licenses...not the property owner.


Front license plates in ohio is a law, heck youll get pulled over every time if its at night and your back license plate light is out. I dont disagree with it though, a lot of bad guys have been caught that way.

FishinTech, if i were you id go to court and plea not guilty, ask to meet with the prosecutor, explain yourself, and see if he will either drop the charges, or give you a lesser charge. Since there are 60 jail days possible (99% sure youd never get jail time for this) im guessing its a misdemeanor of the 2nd degree.

If the prosecutor is not willing to drop the charge, and you are financially stable enough to do it, id take it to court. See, the state of ohio has to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that you knew and were in violation of tresspassing. Now the state of ohio has to prove your guilty, you dont have to "prove" to anyone that your innocent. Basically if i was a jury member the state would have to make me think that you are guilty and that there is NO chance you could be innocent.

Me being a "reasonable minded" person, i would vote you not guilty every time. I believe it would be hard to make a jury of 9-12 ( i believe its 9 in a misdemeanor case) think you were guilty for fishing, in the middle of a river, where there were no signs posted.

GOod luck!

oh yeah, and is this going to be in delaware county?


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## sauguy (Apr 8, 2004)

correct me if i am wrong, but i don't think a landowner has to post his property. it is up to the hunter, fisherman or hiker to know where he is at. in your case it seems to me more of nitpicking if you were 3 feet on his property.


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

While I think a warning would have been a good compromise, the land owner could have insisted a ticket be issued. I would also like to correct Delaware, the state does not have to prove you knew you were tresspassing only that you did.


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## BFG (Mar 29, 2006)

Since they went to the trouble of actually calling the landowner, and he denied knowing the guys...I can just take a wild guess here and say that he won't step back from prosecuting these guys. 

The Scioto is well known for this happening...ask anyone who duck hunts it. I've never been, but have been told it is a royal PITA to try and waterfowl hunt that river due to all the property line mess. 

Sorry to hear that you were issued a ticket, but I don't see where the officer was out of line. My guess is that he was called by the landowner in the first place.


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## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, you were trespassing. Just like hunting you need permission to fish on private property. To comment on the last statement "See, the state of Ohio has to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that you knew and were in violation of trespassing". If I robbed a bank, do I have to prove I didn't know it was wrong? The state does not have to prove anything. You'll have to prove you were right. And without a permission slip, you won't be able to prove it. Plead no contest, chalk it up as an experience, and press on.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

since you say your family knows the land owner, why not go talk to him and see if it can be resolved that way and maybe he will call the courts and speak on your behalf. see if he likes scotch, im sure a 5th will be cheaper than your fine, because you were on his land.


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## 2percent (Jun 27, 2009)

Personally I would never plead guilty to any charge that I didnt feel was entirely my fault. You did mess up by lying and saying you knew the owner. But if you plead guilty the judge can do what he wants. Now jail isnt the worst place I been but it aint the hilton either. Plead not guilty state your case and do not lie or attempt to lie, just state your case and shut your mouth. They think they deserve respect so just be polite and act sincere. Photos may help also as it was not posted and show property lines, but do not go onto his property to get them... Good Luck.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks for all of the input guys. I do want to say the the WO was very nice just doing his job I guesse but what I was trying to get at is that this was part of the dam or at least seemed to be so to me that was open game for fishing. Still not sure what I will do thinking of fighting it but not sure if it is worth the time,effort and money.

This was marion county. And I don't deny being on his property but I just had no clue that someone could own part of a dam. I never said that I knew him I stated my family did and I have meet the guy a couple of times. And I aready took pics


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## 2percent (Jun 27, 2009)

ok that may help.... Since you did state your family does know the owner can they talk to him?

If not then you should definitely fight this. Why pay if you do not have too. Take pics or videos of this place and state how you thought you were on the dam. The judge may see it just as you do especially with no markers.

Its like my back yard there is no line between my neighbor and I. If I mow 3 feet of his property am I trespassing if the property line is not clearly marked??? Its ridiculous, and should be an easy one to get thrown out. Just remember most jobs will check for misdemeanors and felonies, and you may get probation which is a hassle too. i would not just lie down and let them do as they please.. You admit you were in the wrong after they made you aware of this, but how is it your fault if they have not marked the property?


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

was you in the water or on the bank, cause in your first post: (He stated that the deed on the property was to the edge of the water.) if you was in the water, did his property go across the river to the other bank, or did it stop at the bank on his side of the river, sometimes in older counties they allow meandering property lines where the bank (every changing) is the property line, your property can grow or shrink with erosion or deposit, i would find out "what bank" his property line goes to and just do a search online marion county recorder or marion county GIS if they have it...


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

2percent, the property lines dont have to be clearly marked as long as the land owner knows approximately where his property lies, the only time it comes into question is when a survey is needed for various reason, fences, construction, sale of a home and land, tresspassing becomes more tricky cause the home owner only has to prove that is his land by survey, that doesnt mean he has to have the property lines marked and if the deed does go to the river bank and is described in the legal description as a "meandering lot line" then there wont be any landmarks or set points cause its ever changing with flooding which would be a waste of time to set iron pins and caps. also when i do surveys we only stake the property lines at the owners request, we always set or find property corners and clearly mark them its up to the owner to leave those markers up, usually weather takes its toll or kids will remove the stakes and ribbon or the owner himself will.


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## xtrema (May 31, 2007)

I would just go into court and plea "No contest". This admits guilt (which even though you were unaware of it, you were guilty), and you get to explain your situation. Tell him exactly what happened. This allows the judge to assess the situation and decide. I'm sure your case is just in a common pleas court. Most of these times the judges aren't very familiar with the wildlife laws. If you plea "Not guilty" you will have to hire legal advice or defend yourself and will have to go back to court again. I'm sure your jail time will be suspended, and your fine will be reduced greatly. As long as you have a clean record, you have nothing to worry about.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Many years ago I was charged with criminal trespass for fishing in a place I knew was off limits. I pleaded no contest in traffic court and received a suspended sentence and what amounted to a speeding ticket. The land was city owned and protected by the county sheriff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

His line does not have to be marked. It's his property and I'm guessing he probably called the W.O. because he is probably sick and tired of people coming and trashing the place. Did you cross his land to get to the dam? It is a misdemeanor to trespass, unless you're charged with criminal trespassing. Which you not. A simple misdemeanor is no different than a traffic ticket. I'd plead no contest. If you plead not guilty and you proceed with court, your fine may be heavier because the judge will feel you wasted his time. If you do not have permission to be there, your wrong.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

toxic, there are probably different degrees of criminal trespass. Mine was a misdemeanor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DelawareAngler (Mar 19, 2009)

Im telling you prosecutors hate to take these kind of things to trial, if you plea not guilty at first see if they will back off, you can always change your plea to "no contest" after you get a chance to talk to the prosecutor. I use to work with prosecutors in marion, (former prosecutors in morrow county.)

But i mean if you just want to get it over with No Contest is an admission of guilt but not of being aware you committed the act. 

And there are loopholes in the ORC (ohio revised code) pertaining to "acting in good faith" same law that covers law enforcement when a person believes they are following the law. But obviously it has been beat many times in court.

Just some options. Good luck. If you plead no contest ive seen these type of cases go with a 100$ fine + court costs. So it may be easier for you just to pay it, but if your more upset about it being on your record then there are options.

p.s. judges cant increase your fines just because you plead "not guilty" its your constitutional right, and any act of increasing fines just because you were practicing your rights is illegal.

If you take it to trial though your court costs go up.


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## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

Net said:


> toxic, there are probably different degrees of criminal trespass. Mine was a misdemeanor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are correct. I and I did state that.  They range from a misdemeanor to a felony.


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## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

DelawareAngler said:


> p.s. judges cant increase your fines just because you plead "not guilty" its your constitutional right, and any act of increasing fines just because you were practicing your rights is illegal.
> 
> If you take it to trial though your court costs go up.


I was referring to if he simply pleads no contest VS not guilty. I have seen Judges let the person have a lower fee is there is a no contest plea. I wasn't in no shape of from suggesting that judges can raise the fees. And as you stated if he takes it to trail, his cost would go up.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

By talking with the pa you could probably get this reduced to a small fine & court costs. It's a bunch of crap, but there is really no way out of it. The cement wall is part of the bank and the bank is owned by the landowner. In many places they own to the mid river point, but some places it is just to the water line. Depends on the property deed.


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## bopperattacker (Sep 12, 2008)

crittergitter said:


> In many places they own to the mid river point, but some places it is just to the water line. Depends on the property deed.


exactly... Anson, you're the 3rd person I know to get busted on those sections of the scioto in the past two weeks. I know two friends who were fishing the scioto, and a land owner called the Wildlife Officer out to say they're on his land. They got hit with possession of some reefer, a pipe, and the guy had a unregistered hand gun in his car, as well as the original trespassing charges.

I know all this "busting" going on has me thinking about locations I'll be wading this summer.


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## 2percent (Jun 27, 2009)

Toxic said:


> I was referring to if he simply pleads no contest VS not guilty. I have seen Judges let the person have a lower fee is there is a no contest plea. I wasn't in no shape of from suggesting that judges can raise the fees. And as you stated if he takes it to trail, his cost would go up.


This is true as long as it was not criminal. I tried pleading no contest to criminal trespassing and they denied my pleas, said guilty or not guilty. I chose guilty they threw the book at me..


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## Snag06 (Mar 24, 2006)

Is the cement "part of the dam"?? Did taxpayer dollars build it? How can that be considered private propert?


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## DelawareAngler (Mar 19, 2009)

All im saying is that you can plead not guilty at first talk to prosecutor. If you plead not guilty and talk to him and the pros. wont back down at all then just tell him you would like to change plead to no contest. he will write up a little form, take it before judge, you sign it, he signs it, deal is done.

If you do it the latter way, you will know what your going to get before going before the judge and waiting for him to give you whatever he wants based usually on how he "feels" that day.

i worked in courts for 4 years until just recently, 2 of those years were with the current marion county prosecutors. 

good luck fishin.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

bopperattacker said:


> exactly... Anson, you're the 3rd person I know to get busted on those sections of the scioto in the past two weeks. I know two friends who were fishing the scioto, and a land owner called the Wildlife Officer out to say they're on his land. They got hit with possession of some reefer, a pipe, and the guy had a unregistered hand gun in his car, as well as the original trespassing charges.
> 
> I know all this "busting" going on has me thinking about locations I'll be wading this summer.


What's this??

There is no requirement to "register" a handgun in the State of Ohio...any insistence of this by a local jurisdiction would be in violation of State law.

There might be an issue of improper firearm transport if it were loaded and the owner did not have a Concealed Handgun License.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

DelawareAngler said:


> Front license plates in ohio is a law, heck youll get pulled over every time if its at night and your back license plate light is out. I dont disagree with it though, a lot of bad guys have been caught that way.


Yes, but another law that was usually easy to ignore before budget issues became important.

Seems like the theme of the present is revenue generation and people should realize that.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Ok guys I was on the gis for Marion county and after some searching i found his property lines according to this his line ends where the pad begins and this is from the county auditor the section where his stops to the middle of the river is classified as scioto river and then from the middle of the river to the other bank including some land is classified as scioto river the pull off on the road is owned by the village of prospect. So what is everyones thoughts on this.


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## nixmkt (Mar 4, 2008)

I do not know anything about the specific details or info for this location but in general, GIS info on a such a site is usually approximate and should not be depended on to determine correct locations. It could be right on but it could be off a significant distance too. You would need to get into the legal descriptions for the properties and a survey for "exact" locations.


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## cptn_janks (May 30, 2010)

get an attorney. they know how to work the system. here's how it works: the prosecutor and defense attorneys play softball together, go out to dinner with each other, and often with the cops too. 

when your attorney goes to talk to the prosecutor it often times goes like this "hey bob, how ya doin? how's the wife and kids? thanks for having us over last weekend. also judge and i have a tee time at 2 tomorrow, you wanna play? ok great. now lets get down to business..."


regarding the trespassing charge, i was under the impression its only trespassing if they ask you to leave and you dont? this is what the cop told me when we had someone on our property. he said since we didnt tell them they were unwelcome, he couldnt arrest them... maybe he was just being lazy but since it wasnt posted i would def. at least TALK to an attorney. many offer a free initial consultation. 

on another note, the look for nail holes in the tree is BS. a nail hole does not equal a no trespassing sign. hole could have held ANY sign. it could have said "come on in and fish everyone" for all you knew... 

i would not have been a happy camper if he would have said that to me.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

Yet another situation where a warning would have done the job, but instead, they issued a ticket. The problem for the ticketed is that, even though everyone likes to say you're innocent until proven guilty, you have to buy your innocents. If you get a lawyer and fight this, and win, you still lose. It's by far cheaper to go take your licks from the court than it is to fight and win. The crap of it is, if you win, the W.O. doesn't have to pay your lawyer fees. The question now becomes, "How badly will this offense on my record effect me?" If you think it will really make a difference, or, if you have enough money to gamble, you should fight it. I think todays penalties are designed to be this way, and IMO, some LEO's will take every opportunity to exploit it. 

I would definately contact your relatives that know this landowner, and try through them to make ammends. If the landowner understands and are willing to help, maybe they would contact the prosecutor on your behalf, explaining the misunderstanding. Maybe get written permission for the future, and as a trade, you supply and hang the No Trespassing signs for them.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Here is the trespass statue for the state of Ohio. It _clearly_ states you have to be notified you are on private property before you can be found guilty of criminal trespass. Many people think they know the laws about trespassing, 75% of those are wrong (INCLUDING COPS!). If I am walking along a public road and come to a spot on the river I can walk down and fish that spot on the river and be well within my legal means to do so (even if you own said spot). Only when I am _notified_ that the land is privately owned, and I refuse to leave, can I be found guilty of criminal trespass. Note I said found guilty, that does not mean I can't be issued a ticket. Law enforcement can issue tickets/make arrests when they have reason to believe a crime was committed. If it was apparent to the cop that you were somehow notified that the land was private then he was well within his rights to issue you a ticket. 

It really all comes down to the area you were fishing and how many problems the land owner has had. Rural, more conservative areas of the state (and country) often have a "Law and Order" type of view on things. Basically Law Enforcement are viewed as gods and are often assume tyrannical roles. This is one of the reasons I despised the south so much, it was like living in Nazi Germany. 

To be fair it just sounds like the officer was under intense pressure (from the land owner) to write you a ticket, even though you didn't necessarily deserve one.

Anywho I would strongly suggest your plead not guilty and force the land owner to provide evidence that you were somehow notified you were on his land. If he is unable to show that you were notified the case should be thrown out. I would not hire a lawyer...you don't need one. Read the statue below, then write down exactly how you came to be on his land. Try and see if there was anything you observed that could be construed as notification of private property (gates, signs,land markers etc).

§ 2911.21. Criminal trespass.

(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:

(1) *Knowingly* enter or remain on the land or premises of another;

(2) *Knowingly *enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, ]*as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;*
(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either. (B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.
(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception.
(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
(E) As used in this section, "land or premises" includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof.


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## bopperattacker (Sep 12, 2008)

Smead said:


> What's this??
> 
> There is no requirement to "register" a handgun in the State of Ohio...any insistence of this by a local jurisdiction would be in violation of State law.
> 
> There might be an issue of improper firearm transport if it were loaded and the owner did not have a Concealed Handgun License.


I'm not 100% sure of the situation with the hand gun. But I know the guy, he keeps it loaded, and ready in his car. I seriously doubt he has the proper licenses for his gun.


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## F1504X4 (Mar 23, 2008)

§ 2911.21. Criminal trespass.

(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:

(1) *Knowingly enter or* remain on the land or premises of another;


One thing to keep in mind is that In Section A1 covers the violation whether its posted or not. If its not your property, then you need written permission from the land owner to be on it.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

F1504X4 said:


> § 2911.21. Criminal trespass.
> 
> (A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree. The first word in A1 is "knowingly" meaning you have to be somehow notified via signage, property markers,fencing etc (as described further down)


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

If I'm in the jury box I'd would think if its not your land, you knowingly entered the land of another. You may not have been notified it wasn't your land but you should have known it wasn't your land (in most instances). IMO


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## F1504X4 (Mar 23, 2008)

Snakecharmer is correct. When it says "A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do ANY of the following". ANY means, any of the elements not ALL of the elements. So if he KNEW it was not his property and didn't have permission to be there, then he KNOWINGLY entered the property of another. That is all that needs to be proven. All the other legal mumbo jumbo are other ways that a person can be charged with that violation under different circumstances.


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## Snag06 (Mar 24, 2006)

A few years ago I was issued a BS ticket in Guernsey county during dove season (a 4th degree misdameanor). After talking to a lawer I pleaded Not Guilty and went to court without a lawyer. Low and behold the WO didn't show up for the hearing nor did he turn in the ticket/paperwork to the prosecutors office!! What's that tell you! Very unhappy judge and THROWN OUT!! It's a numbers game, how many people just pay the fine and move on!


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## bassangler120 (Mar 19, 2007)

Maybe if your really lucky the judge that will decide ur case is a member of the OGF and he has already decided to throw it out.......lol


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

F1504X4 said:


> So if he KNEW it was not his property and didn't have permission to be there, then he KNOWINGLY entered the property of another. That is all that needs to be proven.


lol yea...that is precisely what I was trying to say 

And I agree with snakecharmer, in most instances you have a fairly good understanding of whether your trespassing or not. However there are instances where one can become easily confused as to whether or not he/she is on private land.


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## bopperattacker (Sep 12, 2008)

F1504X4 said:


> So if he KNEW it was not his property and didn't have permission to be there, then he KNOWINGLY entered the property of another. That is all that needs to be proven.


you would have to see the said property.. I've fished there. No signs are posted, and the area fished is on the actual dam, not the persons property, which the dam should be owned by the city of prospect.

I would never imagine in 10,000,000 years that standing on top of a dam wall would be trespassing on a persons land... To get to the spot you don't ever trespass on the property owners land either... I could understand if you had to trespass to get to the spot, but you get to the spot legally.


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

nixmkt is correct, Online GIS is only for general use, some are dead on and some are clearly off, you can though use that information to show that you was in the knowledge of being on public grounds from the use of their GIS site, then if they say its in error and not totally correct and if he wants to push it, then let the courts pay for the surveyor and go from there, but i do agree with take you licks cause you could open a can of worms and go down a fishing hole road you dont wanna go.


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## DelawareAngler (Mar 19, 2009)

2percent said:


> ok that may help.... Since you did state your family does know the owner can they talk to him?
> 
> If not then you should definitely fight this. Why pay if you do not have too. Take pics or videos of this place and state how you thought you were on the dam. The judge may see it just as you do especially with no markers.
> 
> Its like my back yard there is no line between my neighbor and I. If I mow 3 feet of his property am I trespassing if the property line is not clearly marked??? Its ridiculous, and should be an easy one to get thrown out. Just remember most jobs will check for misdemeanors and felonies, and you may get probation which is a hassle too. i would not just lie down and let them do as they please.. You admit you were in the wrong after they made you aware of this, but how is it your fault if they have not marked the property?


I was a probation officer, trust me you dont want to be on it lol


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

We were told, a few years ago, by a sheriff deputy, that in order for a trespass charge to stick, the property had to be posted every 250 feet. Since you didn't know you were trespassing, and saw no signs, you might find out what exactly the obligations of a property owner to post it are. Then, if you can prove the owner in question hadn't followed the regs, or at least wasn't in compliance at the time.....................


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

i really hate to see these kinds of things happen.it USE to be that you could fish streams and rivers without having to worry about getting a citation.as long as you weren't destroying property or leaving any trash behind no one ever hassled you.you simply fished and enjoyed the day.
times certainly have changed!


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## cptn_janks (May 30, 2010)

jeffmo said:


> i really hate to see these kinds of things happen.it USE to be that you could fish streams and rivers without having to worry about getting a citation.as long as you weren't destroying property or leaving any trash behind no one ever hassled you.you simply fished and enjoyed the day.
> times certainly have changed!


the jerks who DO leave their trash and tangled line everywhere make it harder for the rest of us who actually pack out our trash and care about conservation. i think fishermen get a bad rap sometimes and that leads to issues about access. 

maybe its not totally undeserved, i mean we all see trash and junk around lakes, rivers etc that some donkey left behind.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

cptn_janks said:


> the jerks who DO leave their trash and tangled line everywhere make it harder for the rest of us who actually pack out our trash and care about conservation. i think fishermen get a bad rap sometimes and that leads to issues about access.
> 
> maybe its not totally undeserved, i mean we all see trash and junk around lakes, rivers etc that some donkey left behind.


Indeed, I wince whenever I see the empty bait containers, lure packaging, styrofoam buckets, fishing line tangles, fast food trash and drink containers...and I pick it up.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

cptn_janks said:


> get an attorney. they know how to work the system. here's how it works: the prosecutor and defense attorneys play softball together, go out to dinner with each other, and often with the cops too.
> 
> when your attorney goes to talk to the prosecutor it often times goes like this "hey bob, how ya doin? how's the wife and kids? thanks for having us over last weekend. also judge and i have a tee time at 2 tomorrow, you wanna play? ok great. now lets get down to business..."


See this is what irritates me about our justice system: both sides tend to win even if one party was 100% innocent. All a lawyer is going to do is get the charges lowered to something else. It's doubtful he will get (or even try to get) the case dropped outright.Thats BS. Furthermore the outcome of the case gives Officer Whoever the impression that he has carte blanche when it comes to writing trespassing tickets.

If I were you I would plead not guilty and force the landowner (or even better the arresting officer) to prove that you were some how notified the land you were on was private. Now the burden of proof is shifted to there side. If either one of them is unable to do so the case should be dropped.

And yea, the whole "nails in the tree" scenario is a downright joke, how are nails an indication of private property?


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## Nikster (Mar 14, 2007)

DelawareAngler said:


> Front license plates in ohio is a law, heck youll get pulled over every time if its at night and your back license plate light is out. I dont disagree with it though, a lot of bad guys have been caught that way.
> 
> FishinTech, if i were you id go to court and plea not guilty, ask to meet with the prosecutor, explain yourself, and see if he will either drop the charges, or give you a lesser charge. Since there are 60 jail days possible (99% sure youd never get jail time for this) im guessing its a misdemeanor of the 2nd degree.
> 
> ...


*SOUND ADVICE* Just do it,

Nik


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks everyone I am going to plead not guilty and go from there. And I agree that most cases you would know that you were on private property and would be in violation of tresspassing, but in this case I waded a navigable river and fished on what I thought was PUBLIC land. I was not being malitious in any way nor was I intentionally traesspassing on said property and I was also never informed of being on private property. Thanks guys. I will post the pics of the dam that way some of you can get a abetter idea of what I am talking about.


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## ohiohunter43015 (Feb 23, 2009)

Well dude I am pretty sure you can beat this one! 

We might still be able to fish it if you do don't tell anyone lol. 

Anything I can do to help let me know. I am working on getting some plat books now.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

I haven't been up there since early April, so my memory is a little foggy on it, but can you get on that wall from the water? I thought it was fairly high up from the water. Maybe I am just not remembering it right?


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## ohiohunter43015 (Feb 23, 2009)

You can get on the wall by walking up the busted concrete. I still can't believe after all those years of fishing there. It seems like someone was busted doing something wrong up there and the place was being watched. You just happened to be the guy that got busted.


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## Huntinbull (Apr 10, 2004)

> I figure that it's the property owners duty to keep the signs up.
> 
> 
> > Posting private property is not required. It is the USERS obligation to make sure they are allowed on the property. Doesn't matter if the land is posted or not.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Some sort of notification is needed if you want to enforce trespassing laws on your property. As the land owner it is your duty to provide that notification. If I am walking down a road in the middle of nowhere I can walk onto your (un-posted) field anytime I please and be well within my legal means to do so. The only exception to this rule is when your hunting, in which case all land (posted or not) is considered private property.


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

Acklac7 I don't know where you get your info from but you can't just walk across anyones property . Doesn't matter if you are hunting or not PRIVATE PROPERTY means private property .


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

I get my info from the state trespassing statue (read a little back in this thread). Private property is only "private" if it is posted (or otherwise marked) as such. Dont get me wrong, you may own the land, but you cannot (well you should not) be able to have someone charged with trespassing if your land is not properly marked.

Pay close attention to my scenarios. All of them involve random tracts of land far away from houses,driveways etc. Im not talking about cutting through your backyard.


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## F1504X4 (Mar 23, 2008)

acklac, no disrespect but it doesn't matter if your hunting or just walking down the street. Trespassing on private property is the same, your somewhere your not authorized to be. It is no different than if i come into your back yard and have a cookout or if I go into your back forty and have cookout. Either way I don't have written permission to be there. The size of the land doesn't make ANY difference! Getting back to the original poster..........Are we sure the ACTUAL charge is Criminal Trespassing or is it something else?


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Not trying to sound like a Jack-A$$ but this is a free country. If I am walking down a public road and decide to cross a field I do not need any sort of "authorization" or permission to do so...I have every right to walk on that field up until the point I am notified said field is privately owned. Now, when dealing with residential property etc things are much different due to the fact that any sort of residence,driveway,mailbox etc (should) constitute notification of private property. Alot of people mistakenly believe that an individual needs permission to legally walk onto there property...That is not always the case.

And I too would be interested as too the actual charge (look on the ticket...it should be scribbled there somewhere). If you got charged with criminal trespass you should see the statue ID somewhere (2911.21)

As far as trespassing laws go I have done a significant amount of research into the matter and the only two statues I could find were criminal trespass (2911.21) and some other trespassing statue that applied only to Hunters. Perhaps there are more? If so I had trouble finding them.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

F1504X4 said:


> The size of the land doesn't make ANY difference!


It wasnt the size of the land I was getting at. I was trying to illustrate the difference between a remote tract of "uninhabited" land as opposed to occupied residential property.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

From ORC 2911.21

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.21



> (2) &#8220;Land or premises&#8221; includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof.


Note "Any land".

You're basically attempting to argue that you must be informed before you are in violation, whether by signage or verbally...and after being informed, you remain.

However:



> (1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;


You probably could get away with such a defense if you had land adjoining a neighbors, or were on public land, and strayed off where boundaries may be confusing....but your example of just walking off the road into someone's field won't hold water since it's obvious that you would know it isn't yours.

The WO could have merely informed the OP and let him remove himself without a ticket...especially in the absence of signage and where a boundary might be confusing...I would argue such given this incident.

BTW...hunters should have written permission from the landowner on their person.



> Hunting with Permission
> 
> The landowner&#8217;s written permission is required for hunting and trapping on private land, regardless of whether the land is posted. Permission slips are available at Division of Wildlife district offices and some license outlets.
> 
> ...


http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/dow/regulations/hunting_general.aspx#permission


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## T-180 (Oct 18, 2005)

I think the law is pretty clear ; you are REQUIRED to have written permission, not should have written permission. The land owner does not have to post any of his land, it's your responsibility to know who owns it & get permission.
That being said, I think a resonable judge / prosecutor would make it a simple fine & get on with your life. I'm guessing the landowner is just fed up with people all over his land without asking & trashing the place.


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## FSHNERIE (Mar 5, 2005)

Pay the fine and move on....


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

T-180 said:


> I think the law is pretty clear ; you are REQUIRED to have written permission, not should have written permission. The land owner does not have to post any of his land, it's your responsibility to know who owns it & get permission.


How did you come to that conclusion? My interpretation of the law is that all land is basically considered "public" unless you are somehow notified it is private.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

FSHNERIE said:


> Pay the fine and move on....


That is the LAST thing I would do in this situation. Both the landowner and the officer need to be held accountable for there unjust actions. If you do anything other then plead Not Guilty they get away with breaking the law!


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

acklac7 said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? My interpretation of the law is that all land is basically considered "public" unless you are somehow notified it is private.


 I believe T-180 was referring to the hunting laws.


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## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

acklac7 said:


> That is the LAST thing I would do in this situation. Both the landowner and the officer need to be held accountable for there unjust actions.If you do anything other then plead Not Guilty they get away with breaking the law!


That is the whole problem with society today. It's always the other guys fault. No one want's to take responsibility for their actions. 

And now it the land owners fault for defending his right to keep people from trespassing on his property? And it's the Wildlife's Officer fault because he was notified "by" the land owner that he wanted the trespasser removed from his legally owned property that he paid for? And pays taxes on every year? Seriously, would you say the same thing if it was your property?


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## Alter (Apr 8, 2004)

Toxic said:


> That is the whole problem with society today. It's always the other guys fault. No one want's to take responsibility for their actions.
> 
> And now it the land owners fault for defending his right to keep people from trespassing on his property? And it's the Wildlife's Officer fault because he was notified "by" the land owner that he wanted the trespasser removed from his legally owned property that he paid for? And pays taxes on every year? Seriously, would you say the same thing if it was your property?










What he said









Steve


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Toxic said:


> That is the whole problem with society today. It's always the other guys fault. No one want's to take responsibility for their actions.


I dont get how following the law is somehow viewed as not taking responsibility for ones actions. As far as im concerned the law states that the land owner is responsible for providing notification of his property (lines). If he fails to do so then he shouldn't be aloud to press trespassing charges. I'm not sure why this idea sounds so foreign to so many people? It appears that, in this case, the landowner failed to provide notification of his property. Well, he did, but that notification was illegally removed. Still, if he wants to press trespassing charges he needs to do the responsible thing and better manage his property, because according to the law HE is responsible for providing notification. (he could have spray painted something on the damn tree if his signs kept getting torn down year after year). Furthermore the officer should have done the responsible thing and told the landowner that he could not issue a ticket because there was no notification of private land. Instead he made up some BS about "nails in a tree" constituting notification (I actually have to give him some credit for thinking on his feet, sounds like he understood the law perfectly). And I take back what I said about the land owners actions being unjust. The landowner did nothing wrong in this case, however he didn't do anything right. The officer is the one to blame here. He knew the property wasn't adequately marked, and when questioned came up with some bogus response to justify the charge. In my opinion the responsible thing is to hold the officer accountable for his actions. Make him explain his rational of "nails in a tree" constituting notification of private property. 




Toxic said:


> And now it the land owners fault for defending his right to keep people from trespassing on his property?


No, I take that one back. He is not at fault. However the officer should have told him that he needed to better mark his property, instead he turned the other cheek and wrote fishintechnician a ticket.




Toxic said:


> And it's the Wildlife's Officer fault because he was notified "by" the land owner that he wanted the trespasser removed from his legally owned property that he paid for? And pays taxes on every year? Seriously, would you say the same thing if it was your property?


If the Officer would have followed the law and simply requested that fishintech vacate the property we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead he took it a step to far and issued a ticket. Am I the only one who sees a huge difference between "nails in a tree" and a "no trespassing" sign? I mean if the officer cited a fence or some spray paint as notification it's one thing...But nails in a tree?

And im not trying to burn any bridges with anyone...Just trying to explain my rational  I think ol' misfit would be happy with everyone's responses thus far...Lets not change that


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Smead said:


> From ORC 2911.21
> 
> http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911.21
> 
> ...


Good post. I have referenced that exact scenario (public/private land boundaries) in other trespassing threads. This is the first time I went with the walking along the road scenario. You may be right on this one, however it would likely come down to the condition of the property. Was it maintained? did it appear to be part of some agricultural operation? I would consider both of those indicators of private property.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

F1504X4 said:


> acklac, no disrespect but it doesn't matter if your hunting or just walking down the street. Trespassing on private property is the same, your somewhere your not authorized to be. It is no different than if i come into your back yard and have a cookout or if I go into your back forty and have cookout. Either way I don't have written permission to be there. The size of the land doesn't make ANY difference! Getting back to the original poster..........Are we sure the ACTUAL charge is Criminal Trespassing or is it something else?


I don't think it is criminal tresspassing the ticket just says tresspassing M-4


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

fishintechnician said:


> I don't think it is criminal tresspassing the ticket just says tresspassing M-4


Trespassing *M*isdemeanor *4*


(D)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

acklac7 said:


> Good post. I have referenced that exact scenario (public/private land boundaries) in other trespassing threads. This is the first time I went with the walking along the road scenario. You may be right on this one, however it would likely come down to the condition of the property. Was it maintained? did it appear to be part of some agricultural operation? I would consider both of those indicators of private property.


I believe that the OP has a good argument for his circumstances regarding a not guilty plea, arguing that he didn't know that he was on private land.

I can't agree, however, that any land has to look "occupied/used" for one to consider it to be private. Maybe out west there are huge swatches of public land, but here in Ohio public land acrerage is far outnumbered by private property. It's easy enough to learn what is public land.

I quite agree that the WO could have just informed the OP, especially given the lack of signage posting, without writing a ticket.

It may be a pain, but the right thing to do would be to get permission. You may be disappointed in being told "no", but it is their property.

I have to be fair about that concept.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

acklac7 said:


> Trespassing *M*isdemeanor *4*
> 
> 
> (D)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.


Yeah, my research seems to indicate that Ohio doesn't differentiate between "simple" trespassing and criminal trespassing.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

> Posting private property is not required. It is the USERS obligation to make sure they are allowed on the property. Doesn't matter if the land is posted or not.





> Acklac7 I don't know where you get your info from but you can't just walk across anyones property . Doesn't matter if you are hunting or not PRIVATE PROPERTY means private property .


It's really intersting to read everyone's differing opinions on the law. I know the law as I have been told several times by the magristrate and judge on my criminal trespassing charges.

The land must be posted (mine was). But I take resposibility and pay the fine (as slow as possible) if I get caught and move on.


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## bassattacker (Mar 14, 2007)

this is why laws are so cornfusing LOL, even though we have the written, everyones view of what it is differs, some agree and some dont, the problem with this is the courts can do this as well, its the built in gray area, i do civil engineering and let me tell you the gray area is or of a the whole book is up in the air, all property is considered private property that is owned by the public(us fisherman) government agencies will post areas for public use and so forth or it is known public area, a property owner doesnt have to post anything about his property being private, now if you dont know that person and dont have permission well its private you cross the right-of-way onto property weather its marked or not your tresspassing and up to the owner to call the police and press tresspassing charges, if said lines arnt clear as in neither party knows where the actual line is located then someone like me is called to physically locate said line and stake it out for clarification, usually when we get a call to locate a property line there is a dispute between land owners or someone is doing something on said owners land and they want to fence it off, the easiest way to avoid this is to check your local GIS map for an area that your possibly going to fish or hunt (dont always assume GIS is correct and that property lines are clearly marked, if that was the case i wouldnt be in this field) , talk to the land owners, and go from there.


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

A situation like this is why I have limited by stream fishing to public areas (parks) and in states that allow public access to the high water mark (Wisconsin, Michigan). I did some floats a few weeks ago in U.P. streams without having to worry about trespassing (we stayed in the stream beds and entered/exited at logging bridges) and/or seeing anybody else on the rivers. Nice change of pace from our often crowded rivers.


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

Let me tell you what the last Judge told me when I showed up in his court without a lawyer . Do you have written permission from the landowner yes or no. When I replyed it wasn't posted I fished there all of my life he repeated himself . Do you have written permission . No I replyed I did not . Fine was $375.00 plus they got me for tresspassing with a weapon . I always carry a pistol with me fishing you know snakes and such . So go ahead and walk , fish hunt where you want to just make sure you have deep pockets .


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

C J Hughes said:


> Let me tell you what the last Judge told me when I showed up in his court without a lawyer . Do you have written permission from the landowner yes or no. When I replyed it wasn't posted I fished there all of my life he repeated himself . Do you have written permission . No I replyed I did not . Fine was $375.00 plus they got me for tresspassing with a weapon . I always carry a pistol with me fishing you know snakes and such . So go ahead and walk , fish hunt where you want to just make sure you have deep pockets .


Might be an excellent example of judges not knowing the law and the value of having an attorney...having written permission, while a good idea, is only required when hunting as far as I can tell from reading ODNR regs. It is not mentioned as a requirement in ORC 2911.21.

Additionally, neither is trespassing with a weapon mentioned as an additional or more serious offense in ORC 2911.21. Weapons related is covered in ORC 2911.11 Aggravated Burglary and applies to structures. 

Other areas of the ORC cover firearms. Having a concealed handgun without a license is a rather serious offense. Open carry of a hangun is permitted state wide as of 8Sep08...previous to that date, local jurisdictions could and did ban open carry. Though exercising this right even after 8Sep08 has been problematic in some jurisdictions. You have to transport a weapon properly in a vehicle.

Also, from reading 2911.21 more closely, it does seem viable to argue that you do require notification in an area that is confusing; as it is mentioned that there is offense upon not vacating upon notification by signage or verbal warning. More exact boundaries would most likely prevent a defense though...as in the walking in off the road example. It would be hard to claim that you didn't know under those circumstances.

On the other hand...it might have cost much more than $375 to have an attorney defend you and argue all the above...but you wouldn't have anything on your record.


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## CWG (May 12, 2010)

I was a land owner a year ago. I caught a trespasser, called the sheriff. Was told that because my signs had been torn down, they could issue a citation, but in court it was going to bounce- 
FIGHT IT!! 
You were trespassing, yes you evil dirtbag, LOL, but if its not posted, in Ohio, it may as well have in invite.
additionally, the signs must have the address and phone number and complete name!! ( I guess in case joe tresspasser wants to ask just to make sure the land owner is serious)
good luck and fight it!!!


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## Alter (Apr 8, 2004)

Is this the area where you were fishing when you received the ticket? Excuse me if this is not the right location, but if this is where you were fishing I would hope that it would be *obvious* that if you were on the western bank that you were trespassing in someone's backyard.


Hopefully, this is the wrong location and there is another dam in the area where the question of whether the western bank is public or private isn't so blatantly obvious.


Steve


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## sauguy (Apr 8, 2004)

what constitutes posting of property, how many signs, location, distance apart, how close to the line should they be? i have never seen nor heard anything about this. can someone head me in the right direction if its the landowners responsibility to do so.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

sauguy said:


> what constitutes posting of property, how many signs, location, distance apart, how close to the line should they be? i have never seen nor heard anything about this. can someone head me in the right direction if its the landowners responsibility to do so.


Such is not mentioned in ORC 2911.21...other than "signage" meets the requirement for warning.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

CWG said:


> I was a land owner a year ago. I caught a trespasser, called the sheriff. Was told that because my signs had been torn down, they could issue a citation, but in court it was going to bounce-
> FIGHT IT!!
> You were trespassing, yes you evil dirtbag, LOL, but if its not posted, in Ohio, it may as well have in invite.
> additionally, the signs must have the address and phone number and complete name!! ( I guess in case joe tresspasser wants to ask just to make sure the land owner is serious)
> good luck and fight it!!!


Name, address and phone number requirements are not mentioned either in ORC 2911.21...it might be that a lot of this sort of stuff is being made up by misc involved parties.


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

See now, you have joined the dark side!! (J/K, it's your property.)

Though not all attorneys are bad...I know of one who provides service for military members for 50 bucks where his services usually run about 4k just to start. People like anybody else...some devils, some saints and the rest in between.


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## AEFISHING (Apr 25, 2004)

I would just pay the fine, it will cost you much more to fight it. I have been through a similar situation and in the long run I should've just paid the fine.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

CWG said:


> I was a land owner a year ago. I caught a trespasser, called the sheriff. Was told that because my signs had been torn down, they could issue a citation, but in court it was going to bounce-
> FIGHT IT!! QUOTE]
> 
> The sheriff told us basically the same thing. He also said that the signs had to be posted every 250 feet. We measured them out, and used I don't know for sure, but a few hundred signs over the years. We also try to go around the perimeter every few months and replace the ones that have been torn down or shot up too badly. It seems like a lot to go through, but in our situation, it's better than getting sued for someones accidental shooting. I'd call the sheriffs office and just ask them what the requirements are. It wouldn't hurt to check with the local DNR as well. As far as a defense, you could record the calls and use the recordings in court, if they turned out to be in your favor.


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## C J Hughes (Jan 24, 2006)

You are right I have went to the DARK side sorry for that , I'll be fine after I tell one joke what is 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea ? A good start . See now I feel better already .
I think we had the same post last year someone said they could pitch a tent in anyones front yard and there wasn't nothing that could be done about it .
I can't believe I hit the same lure again . Now I FEEL JUST LIKE A LARGEMOUTH BASS


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

Alter said:


> Is this the area where you were fishing when you received the ticket? Excuse me if this is not the right location, but if this is where you were fishing I would hope that it would be *obvious* that if you were on the western bank that you were trespassing in someone's backyard.
> 
> 
> Hopefully, this is the wrong location and there is another dam in the area where the question of whether the western bank is public or private isn't so blatantly obvious.
> ...




I see no pics


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## Alter (Apr 8, 2004)

> I see no pics



Crap, am I the only one that can see it? 

Steve


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

Alter said:


> Crap am I the only one that can see it? LOL.
> 
> Steve


Nope, pretty clear to me too...!


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## DelawareAngler (Mar 19, 2009)

Just tell the judge if he lets you off you will treat him to a fish fry


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## ohiohunter43015 (Feb 23, 2009)

I don't see any pics either.


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## bopperattacker (Sep 12, 2008)

epic fail on the pics Alter.. Cinco Face palm


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Me no see pics on my Droid 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alter (Apr 8, 2004)

bopperattacker said:


> epic fail on the pics Alter.. Cinco Face palm


Odd, it seems Hook n Book can see it as well. The area is the first visable dam south of Prospect Ohio it was easy to find on bing maps (although I don't know if it is the right location). There is a parking pull-off along the eastern shore. Along the western shore there are houses and there seems to be a white house not far from where the OP was fishing.

Maybe this way will work:


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Alter said:


> Maybe this way will work:


Nada. Like the other one, it opens but the image is blank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ohiohunter43015 (Feb 23, 2009)

I am thinking you are looking at the right place. You are correct as it borders a backyard (big field) The biggest question I see is the fact that the damn was paid for with tax payer money. The property that FT was standing on was concrete and part of the damn. You never walk across anything that is not purely dam stucture to be able to fish. Also the fact the he, myself, countless family members, and other have been fishing this for 20+ years without incident. I have even had the property come down and shoot the breeze while fishing.


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## Alter (Apr 8, 2004)

ohiohunter43015 said:


> I am thinking you are looking at the right place. You are correct as it borders a backyard (big field) The biggest question I see is the fact that the damn was paid for with tax payer money. The property that FT was standing on was concrete and part of the damn. You never walk across anything that is not purely dam stucture to be able to fish. Also the fact the he, myself, countless family members, and other have been fishing this for 20+ years without incident. I have even had the property come down and shoot the breeze while fishing.


Help me out here. 
Obviously, the property owner changed his mind about allowing people to fish from his property (I'm sure we can all think of reasons why that might happen; if you can't I can give you a bunch of examples ). What steps should a property owner take to keep people off of his land? From the early post it sounds as if the owner tried to post the propety but yahoos tore the signs down. How many times is the owner obligated to replace those signs? 
When the signs get ripped down does the property owner's land magically become public domain until the signs are replaced? What steps should this guy take to keep people off of his land if his signs are getting ripped down? Should he call the authorities when trespassers are present? How many warnings should be given before tickets are issued? Does everyone in the world get one warning on each piece of private property before they can be ticketed there?

Or did the property owner give up his rights in exchange for some government issued concrete?

Steve


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## ohiohunter43015 (Feb 23, 2009)

Alter said:


> Or did the property owner give up his rights in exchange for some government issued concrete?
> 
> Steve


I am positive the land owner does not pay for the dam repairs or liability of damages caused by the dam. Does he even own the dam? I have never seen a posted sign on that property at all. Nor have I seen any nails in the trees.


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

Or maybe...just maybe, there could be a new property owner and he's not to keen about trespassing. Just sayin...!


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## Smead (Feb 26, 2010)

C J Hughes said:


> You are right I have went to the DARK side sorry for that , I'll be fine after I tell one joke what is 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea ? A good start . See now I feel better already .
> I think we had the same post last year someone said they could pitch a tent in anyones front yard and there wasn't nothing that could be done about it .
> I can't believe I hit the same lure again . Now I FEEL JUST LIKE A LARGEMOUTH BASS


Have you heard the one about the guy who tries to run down a lawyer walking on the side of the road while momentarilly forgeting that he's giving his priest a ride?


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## 2percent (Jun 27, 2009)

DelawareAngler said:


> I was a probation officer, trust me you dont want to be on it lol


Been there done that lol

I am just not understanding why it is a criminal offense. it was an accident and no harm done what is the big deal.


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## FSHNERIE (Mar 5, 2005)

It's a law to protect property,and its owners. Not to mention insurance Company's in case you do something stupid while you are tresspassing.

Pay the Fine....Move on

Be a Man about it


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

FSHNERIE said:


> It's a law to protect property,and its owners. Not to mention insurance Company's in case you do something stupid while you are tresspassing.
> 
> Pay the Fine....Move on
> 
> Be a Man about it


Yep, it sucks, but as a property owner, you can be sued by a trespasser for their injuries, if it can be proven they were injured by a known hazard, i.e. falling in an open well, falling through a rotten bridge, etc. That's part of the reason for signs. It helps the owner to prove that the injured party was knowingly breaking the law by trespassing, but you can still lose. 

fishintechnician, if it's not obvious, as you state, that you were trespassing, I'd fight it. Will you please let us know how you proceed, and the ultimate outcome?


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## DaleM (Apr 5, 2004)

FSHNERIE said:


> It's a law to protect property,and its owners. Not to mention insurance Company's in case you do something stupid while you are tresspassing.
> 
> Pay the Fine....Move on
> 
> Be a Man about it


Great advise FSHNERIE. It's been tossed aroud here enough. You tresspassed on private property period, that's the bottom line. Intentionally or not you were wrong. You can go to court and MAYBE win but you could also get a higher fine and you will pay court cost as well. My guess is you won't win.
Pay up and put this in your, things not to do list.


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## cptn_janks (May 30, 2010)

i completely disagree on "just pay the fine". 

first of all you have the charge on your record, which can affect you in other ways down the road. yes it may cost more NOW to fight it than to just pay the fine. but it could cost you more later. maybe you try to get a new job with better pay and dont get hired because you have a conviction on your record. how much does it cost you then? 

secondly, its the principle of the thing. personally, i dont like just handing over money to the state. if they want it make them work for it. 

you already give them enough out of your paycheck, when you go shopping, when you title your car etc etc.

id rather give money to an attorney and at least have a CHANCE at beating it or getting it reduced to something minor, rather than just blindly handing money to the state and _guaranteed_ getting convicted and having a criminal charge on my record.


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## Danno (Mar 23, 2010)

Wouldn't the concrete pad and associated dam structures be covered by a right-of-way easement? Kind of like highway right-of-ways? Seem to me that the entire dam and associated structures would be covered this way, May have been mentioned already, didn't see it as I read through. 

Good luck, in any event.


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

Danno said:


> Wouldn't the concrete pad and associated dam structures be covered by a right-of-way easement? Kind of like highway right-of-ways? Seem to me that the entire dam and associated structures would be covered this way, and not owned by the ***** that wants you to have a ticket. May have been mentioned already, didn't see it as I read through.
> 
> Good luck, in any event.



Nice language dude! Good way to set an example in your 1st 5 posts. Almost every property in Ohio has an Easment, be it a powerline entering the house cable lines, gas lines, sewer, railroad, even highways built through the middle of a property. An easement doesn't make it public property.


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## DaleM (Apr 5, 2004)

Danno, check your PM's


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## Alter (Apr 8, 2004)

Papascott said:


> Nice language dude! Good way to set an example in your 1st 5 posts. Almost every property in Ohio has an Easment, be it a powerline entering the house cable lines, gas lines, sewer, railroad, even highways built through the middle of a property. An easement doesn't make it public property.


Plus, even if a property is "public" doesn't mean one can use it as they please:
*
§ 2911.21. Criminal trespass.
4(B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.*

I'm not sure where these folks are getting the idea that if their "tax dollars" paid for something then it trumps the land owner's rights to the property he paid for and pays taxes on every year . 

Steve


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Great advice: 



DelawareAngler said:


> Front license plates in ohio is a law, heck youll get pulled over every time if its at night and your back license plate light is out. I dont disagree with it though, a lot of bad guys have been caught that way.
> 
> FishinTech, if i were you id go to court and plea not guilty, ask to meet with the prosecutor, explain yourself, and see if he will either drop the charges, or give you a lesser charge. Since there are 60 jail days possible (99% sure youd never get jail time for this) im guessing its a misdemeanor of the 2nd degree.
> 
> ...


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## deltaoscar (Apr 4, 2009)

From looking at the aerial photos (along with the other testimonies) I also would probably assume it was legal to fish from where the OP said he was fishing. I hope he has the means to fight it.

As for the "the law is the law" crowd, I hope they get fined for littering every time they lose a lure.

Whatever happened to common sense and discretion? This story reminds me of the kindergartner that brings a potato chip to school that resembles a gun and gets suspended, because of a zero tolerance policy about guns.

If the dude screwed up and unknowingly crossed a property line tell him; if he does it again, I don't care what you do to him.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

deltaoscar said:


> As for the "the law is the law" crowd, I hope they get fined for littering every time they lose a lure.


HA, I like it.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

had court yesterday and they droped the fine from tresspassing to fishign without permision i plead no contest and got a $50 fine plus court costs, so i'm happy with that. Thanks for all the info guys you really helped me out on this one


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