# 18 Wildlife Officers under investigation



## reo (May 22, 2004)

http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2013/12/inspector_general_says_18_wild.html

And:

http://watchdog.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf/investigations/2012-CA00061.pdf


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

String them up and can them. There are plenty of honest people that have been waiting for years for a game warden position to open up. Make examples out of them because this has been going on for years. They would never cut us a break. All they want to do is make names for themselves. Let that try making that name saying "welcome to Mcdonalds can I take your order". I say give them the same treatment for stealing what our licence money pays for.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

While the vast majority are honest and professional, there are always going to be the few "bad apples"; it best serves the PUBLIC INTEREST to allow them to resign...if NOT then PROSECUTE them, just like any other law enforcement officer or public employee, they are given the public`s trust and as soon as they BETRAY it, they need to GO !


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

The Geuaga County guy claimed 8 hour of pay but his log showed 12 hours. Wonder if he gets paid the extra 4 hours now?

It's kinda strange that they can check in deer but they can't check in their own deer? Kinda of a paradox to me. If they aren't working then they can't check in the deer themselves. So they have to be on the clock to check in deer. But if they are on the clock they can't check there own deer. Kinda a catch 22......


I'm sure some will end up saying they put the wrong date on the tag or something to explain the conflict in time / dates.


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## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

Lowell H Turner said:


> While the vast majority are honest and professional, there are always going to be the few "bad apples"; it best serves the PUBLIC INTEREST to allow them to resign...if NOT then PROSECUTE them, just like any other law enforcement officer or public employee, they are given the public`s trust and as soon as they BETRAY it, they need to GO !


Lowell, I'm unclear on your statement. Even if they resign, shouldn't they still be prosecuted for basically "fraud"? Or theft in office? How does it serve the public interest to just let them walk away with their head hung down in shame? Shouldn't an example be made of them which might deter further incidents like this?
Maybe I'm on the wrong track. If a private employee is found to be deer hunting (or sitting in a bar) while supposedly on his employers time clock, he will most likely be fired but not charged criminally. Perhaps public employees are held to a higher standard? or....not? I'm not really sure how that all works. What would they be prosecuted for?


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

By resigning thought they forfeited any accrued leave, benefits, ect...and I actually meant TO say prosecute them. My bad...


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

Prosecute them to the fullest extent. They are held to a hight standard as the are enforcement officers. 

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## Skippy (Dec 2, 2009)

These game wardens knew of this witch hunt close to a year now. Why did they wait till now, the busiest time of the year to bring out this so called investigation?? They are JUST under investigation so why did they put in the names?? Do they do this with anyone else?? When most are cleared from this will that be as well published in the papers? We all know it won't be..

There is a public perception that they are trying to create out there. Now ask yourself WHY.

Why was someone appointed to head up the ODNR who has no past training in any type of wildlife management?

What is the total budget of the ODNR? Remember that most of that money comes from US, anyone who buys anything for hunting, fishing , trapping, camping, hiking, and yes even bird watching.

Who wants to get there hands on some of that money?

Thats what is behind ALL of this. They started all this with the " lets build the gallows then put them on trial mentality" 

I did not want to make this political and still don't want that but how else can someone speak up for these game wardens???
I guess know one else has taken a long lunch break or left work early and still be on the clock. Called off sick when they weren't. 
Remember these fine men and women who work for us are on the clock 24/7 365days a year taking calls and going out many different hours during the year.


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

If what I read was correct they filled out time cards falsely. That would be fraud. I would love to have my buddies click me out at work while I've been sitting in the woods for hours. How is it a witch hunt if they were caught doing something wrong? Yes they are human and make mistakes but they are still to be held accountable for what they do. 

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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I'd get fired in a heartbeat. Misusing taxpayer money and abusing the public trust. Tsk Tsk.

If I call off sick, I only have so many sick hours which I've accrued over time. Most people don't get paid if they call off so they are just hurting themselves.

Not sure why they printed all the names already, I thought that was a bit strange unless it's already a done deal.


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## jshbuckeye (Feb 27, 2005)

Stealing time is just that stealing from your employer, would get me canned in a second. I have respect for what these officers do at certain times but that doesnt over shadow what they have done. Im sure they signed an agreement when they got the job, follow the agreement and move on.


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## WeekendWarrior (Jan 20, 2008)

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!!

A lot of assumptions.........


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## garhtr (Jan 12, 2009)

If found guilty they are probably looking at the same punishment David Warner and Matt Roberts received, loss of their job, hunting privileges and restitution for time fraud. http://www.news-herald.com/general-news/20130121/wildlife-officers-punished-for-hunting-while-on-duty
Seems Fair but It would save a lot of tax payer money if they would simply resign {If they are guilty.} Governmental wheels turn slowly and most investigations take many months and sometimes years. Attorney General and Prosecutors will get it right, just takes too much time and {taxpayers} money


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

I consider this story only remarkable because it highlights the exception to the rule.

I am very satisfied with how our men and women in Ohio within the Division Of Wildlife conduct themselves and run things in general.

This is very unfortunate for the vast majority within their ranks who work hard to do a professional job every day.


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## flytyer (Jan 3, 2005)

WeekendWarrior said:


> INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!!
> 
> A lot of assumptions.........


True statement there! They are under investigation is all. That doesn't mean they did it (or didn't do it), it means somebody thinks they did. 
Until it's completed they should have never released the names.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

This sounds like it could be some type of witch hunt.I know I once considered a career in this field,Then I realized I would be sacrificing my fishing and hunting time to the the point of Rarely going out .And the fact that almost all of these officers loved to do the same,this very well could be a common practice.After all who's to know? we being the law and all! Each case is going to have different circumstances involved.This may have been going on for a very long time,or just appearing on time and log sheets, along with the appearance of said picture!We had some thing similar were I work.Only this involved just time and money.Management came down hard Not just on the Good Old Boy's! But every one paid the price over time.Just as We the tax payers will suffer the financial burden of this investigation/and or prosecution. I have always held these officers in high regards,and still do.


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## joebertin (Mar 26, 2010)

This is the way government operates. No surprise unless you live under a rock.


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## CES (Nov 24, 2006)

Sounds like a witch hunt. After 40 years of work in industry I can't think of a single place I have worked that didn't have something that would look bad.

Chuck


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## Richman (Sep 1, 2007)

Maybe I'm gullible or simply naïve....I'm guessing this is nothing more than simple clerical errors (payroll time sheets not matching up with officer daily reports, not matching up with radio logs). 

I find it hard to believe 18 of these folks would purposefully break the law after watching what happened in southern Ohio and to ODNR administrators over the past 5 years. 

Having read the IGs report and then knowing how these guys work I can see how there are discrepancies in reports. GWs are asked/expected to flex hours instead taking legitimate overtime. They go on and off the clock on a routine basis over the course of the day to save the state cash. They work from their homes, take calls there, do paperwork there, run to poaching calls in the dead of the night from there. Now because an investigator for the IG thinks they work a straight eight the same as everyone else, he makes an ASSUMPTION they are guilty of either falsifying payroll sheets or hunting on state time.

Lets let them be innocent until proven otherwise.....unfortunately their names have already been smeared!


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## WeekendWarrior (Jan 20, 2008)

Richman said:


> Maybe I'm gullible or simply naïve....I'm guessing this is nothing more than simple clerical errors (payroll time sheets not matching up with officer daily reports, not matching up with radio logs).
> 
> I find it hard to believe 18 of these folks would purposefully break the law after watching what happened in southern Ohio and to ODNR administrators over the past 5 years.
> 
> ...


Well said Richman!!!!


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

Do these people under investigation, give the people THEY ARE investigating the benefit of the doubt?

Typically NO

Just like the people they investigate, where there's smoke, there's fire....they wouldn't be under investigation just because the OIG has nothing better to do. 

I'm thinking this was released as it may be bigger than what initially thought.....



And for those of you sticking up for them working 12 hour days vs 8 hours......they are NOT hourly employees, but rather salary......if they don't like their working arrangements, they can always quit....they KNEW what they were getting into...there are lots of young guys ready to step in.


If ODNR wants credibility, they will prosecute these folks to the full extent of the law, if guilty.


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

Well said bad luck

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## Skippy (Dec 2, 2009)

What's the bet that the ones that are cleared will have to sign a paper that they WILL NOT sue for defamation????


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

Richman said:


> Maybe I'm gullible or simply naïve....I'm guessing this is nothing more than simple clerical errors (payroll time sheets not matching up with officer daily reports, not matching up with radio logs).
> 
> I find it hard to believe 18 of these folks would purposefully break the law after watching what happened in southern Ohio and to ODNR administrators over the past 5 years.
> 
> ...


Ye there are a bunch of "assuming they worked 7, 9, 14 hr shift" I have flex hours at work and I am all over the place. Am I stealing money if at 1 00 I go and fish for an hour then go back to work and put in my 8 hours? Some days I work 5 and some 14 depends what we have going on.

Also sounds like a jankey communications system they have.


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## WeekendWarrior (Jan 20, 2008)

bad luck said:


> Do these people under investigation, give the people THEY ARE investigating the benefit of the doubt?
> 
> Typically NO
> 
> ...


Yes - IF GUILTY!! I am not sticking up for them, but knowing LAW and reading the IG report against the Officers, how many times was the word "ASSUMING" used? You can't prosecute on assumption - This itself will not be permissible for the deciding parties (Judge, jury etc) to decide "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Here is the report - I suggest you read it!!

http://watchdog.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf/investigations/2012-CA00061.pdf


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## zoar (Apr 19, 2004)

Total B.S. all they have (from 2009) is the fact that these officers shot a deer on the same day they worked. You never have shot a deer after work? Remember these guys do not work from 9 to 5.


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

Um, lets think about this?

We want our wildlife officers and ODNR to understand our trials and tribulations as hunters, right?

So they (even if while on duty) are hunting than I would suspect that they would see the decline in deer population, poaching hunters and other law breaking bodies.

Maybe they should be accommodated for such moral action aside from riding around in a vehicle and spot checking the law abiding hunters.

I think the more important statistic should be where the deer they tagged were from private or public land? (private=guilty as charged) (public=special award and ODNR promotion)


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

zoar said:


> Total B.S. all they have (from 2009) is the fact that these officers shot a deer on the same day they worked. You never have shot a deer after work? Remember these guys do not work from 9 to 5.


That is what I was thinking when I read that.

There are too many factors that are not presented and the rest is speculation. The part that got me was they have people in place at the main office to replace them....sounds fishey


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm sure when the investigation is complete that the facts will come out for us to see.

I also believe that what ever wrong doing has taken place it will be to varying degrees for each individual and as such so will the consequences be for each. 

I'll wait and see.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

one of the best articles I have ever read......once dirty always dirty I hope the full punishment is accounted when proven guilty...just like stated things arent put on paper on assumptions they obviously did their research before putting out the article.

If innocent then they are innocent. If guilty then stealing is stealing and punishment IS required.....we all get it for whatever we encounter no reason they are treated differently.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Lundy said:


> I'm sure when the investigation is complete that the facts will come out for us to see.
> 
> I also believe that what ever wrong doing has taken place it will be to varying degrees for each individual and as such so will the consequences be for each.
> 
> I'll wait and see.


The report is here for you to read, WeekendWarrior posted it:

http://watchdog.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf/investigations/2012-CA00061.pdf

zoar: Read the report. They addressed the clock in times there. 

This doesn't look good for them, as LE tends to be held to a higher standard when it comes to fraud, theft of services, forgery, etc.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Mushijobah said:


> The report is here for you to read, WeekendWarrior posted it:
> 
> http://watchdog.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf/investigations/2012-CA00061.pdf
> 
> ...


That seems to be pretty straight forward. 

Interesting to see if any of the 18 county prosecutors do anything with it.


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

So if I read that correctly then I would also wonder how much time they actually hunted on state time. Not just the actual harvest and check in as well. I hope they make an example of these guys. They should be paying restitution the pay they stole.

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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Some interesting points on both sides. As far as the names being published, remember when a certain person and firm was "under investigation" for dumping gas drilling waste water into the Mahoning River? His name was in the paper, as was his company's name, other officers of the company, and even the name of the truck driver who was ordered to do the dumping. 

I know one of the guys who was named. I won't say who. Overall, he seems to be an OK guy, but he's done several questionable things during his tenure. He, and his son, routinely deer hunted an area that is supposed to be completely off limits to any trespassing or hunting. He confiscated a road killed deer from a friend of mine (who had a possession permit from the County Sheriff), telling him that you were only allowed one per year, permit or not. This was my friend's second. He lived on a road where lots of deer were hit, and this one was hit by a school bus that was coming to pick up his kids. He was waiting at the stop with them, and the bus driver told him about it! The GP showed up while my buddy was at work, and used a knife to cut a $300 bull rope that my buddy had used to hang the deer. 

Needless to say, my friend was really pissed! He drove to a DOW district headquarters to file a complaint. Shortly thereafter he got a call, with the GP screaming, "What the hell are you trying to do to me!" My friend replied, "As far as I'm concerned you stole food from me and my family, and you vandalized my property. I hope they prosecute, and fire, you!" 

More recently, I, among others, was checked by DOW personnel on a piece of property that we all had permission to hunt. We had licenses, tags, temp tags, writing implements, permission slips, the whole 9 yards! Late in the afternoon I see a helicopter, circling, circling, circling. I'm thinking that someone is lost or hurt somewhere and they're searching for them. No! They were searching for us! Next thing I know here come 3 DOW guys, in uniform, tramping through the woods! They checked me, and were very courteous and professional, but still, they hosed up evening prime time on opening day! 

Well, I sat my spot until it was time to leave. Because of the recent "visit" I made sure to unload my gun before heading out. I don't always do so, not because I'm a stinking, poaching bastard, but because I just might not think of it until I'm back, or nearly back, to my vehicle. And, yes, all the DOW guys were there where we were parked to check us again! However, one of our party had a special circumstance. He has one arm. So, he uses a pistol to hunt deer. Well, the poor, dumb SOB walked out of the woods with his pistol loaded! He tried to explain that he usually has his son unload the pistol for him, but, since the DOW officer had ordered his son out of the woods early, he couldn't do that and didn't like laying the pistol down in mud and snow in order to unload it. Seems that the one armed guy had an issue with the DOW showing up in prime time and complained about it. It also seems that the DOW officer "ordered" the son out of the woods in order to get rid of a witness!

So, the DOW guys ran him through the wringer! As I said, the guys who checked me were courteous and professional, but, back at the parking area, the obvious head of the outfit, who I nicknamed "Herr Obersturmfuhrer", said they were going to arrest him! They were going to confiscate his pistol! They were going to do this and that! He was going to prison! It was obvious that he loved throwing his weight around. I was free to leave, having been checked, TWICE!, but I decided to stick around, as a witness. I told a couple of other guys to stick around for the same reason. 

Well, the one armed man's pistol checked out, his hunting license checked out, his driver's license checked out, and Herr Obersturmfuhrer seemed a bit frustrated. It was nearly full dark when we hear "whump!....whump!, way back in the woods! That's when I remarked to Herr Obersturmfuhrer, "You know, It doesn't seem like we're the problem here!" 

He flapped his hand at me and said, "You're all free to go!" I thought, "Hell, I thought we were all free to begin with, but then, this is the USA in the year whatever, so, who knows?" He and his party set off into the woods to try to track down the source of those late shots. Now, considering all that happened, do I hope they tracked down whoever it was that was shooting late? YES!! However, considering the time, and expense, that the DOW had expended on law abiding persons, I began wondering just how much of our money is being wasted.

There have been several posts referencing "assumption of innocence". Well, where was our assumption of innocence. As far as I could determine, there was none! Admittedly, these guys have a hard job to do, but, too many times, it seems that if there is nothing more pressing on the agenda, they will try to screw over a regular guy on a technicality. Back in the day we used to call that "thin pinching"! 

I'll stay tuned and follow what happens. I hope those who are truly guilty get punished, and those that are truly innocent are set free!


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## pikekilla (Aug 28, 2012)

So if they caught these guys by comparing their deer check in times with their time sheets, and if they truly did submit false time sheets, they have to be dumber than dumb... Hunting on the clock, then checking a deer under their license.. Why bother to check it in at all if you are purposely committing fraud?? Who is going to care if they were hunting and checking in legally or not, of if they even had a license? Themselves?? In a sense they would have to arrest themselves.. If you are already cheating the system, then why do anything legally at all?? It seems odd to me..


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

I can bet some of the deer checking was while on the clock. Killing 2 birds with one stone. Threw it in my truck and stopped to check on the check station.....while I am here check my deer too. I have ran into wildlife officers at the check station.


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

WeekendWarrior said:


> Yes - IF GUILTY!! I am not sticking up for them, but knowing LAW and reading the IG report against the Officers, how many times was the word "ASSUMING" used? You can't prosecute on assumption - This itself will not be permissible for the deciding parties (Judge, jury etc) to decide "beyond a reasonable doubt"
> 
> Here is the report - I suggest you read it!!
> 
> http://watchdog.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf/investigations/2012-CA00061.pdf



Read it, and this is pretty grim for these guys. At the end of the day, there's a lot of guys there that fudged their time and/or hunted on OUR TAX DOLLARS!! 

Based on the report, at a minimum, there should be plenty of openings for the next class of officers.

At that point, it appears it will be up the local prosecuters or the state prosecuter to file criminal charges.....


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

How about champaign county officer shot a deer the 9th of jan, tagged it the 12th. 

To top it off Holmes county officer shot and tagges a deer at 430 pm. Kind of hard to tag and shoot at the same tune? To add to it, the tag number for his deer shows another person and a different deer!.

Sounds like some serious misconduct to me.


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## reo (May 22, 2004)

Papascott said:


> How about champaign county officer shot a deer the 9th of jan, tagged it the 12th.
> 
> To top it off Holmes county officer shot and tagges a deer at 430 pm. Kind of hard to tag and shoot at the same tune? To add to it, the tag number for his deer shows another person and a different deer!.
> 
> Sounds like some serious misconduct to me.


Ha, Butler County dude killed his deer on December 20th and checked it in on January 1st.

To the "they should not have released the names" crowd, I don't know about where you live but where I live people's names that are accused of crimes or arrested are released all the time.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

I used to go to the Maumme River and the Sandusky,But after several harassing and threatening checks by the local GW" If I find an incriminating mark on any of these fish You will go to Jail" I was not snagging walleye,and had one fish on the stringer.He made this statement After he dropped the fish on the rocks.Then proceeded to examine this fish like a jeweler with a diamond!I considered myself lucky and never went back.I respect the law and the job they do, but at times ..well we are human!As far this investigation goes time will tell.Maybe the names were changed to protect the innocent Plus I figure if the punishment is good enough for me it ought to be good enough for them!


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## Rabbeye (Oct 28, 2013)

Doesn't surprise me. I wonder over a course of a year how many hours we paid these people for hours not worked? I bet it is a lot more than most would think. This is typical of people in government jobs, low productivity with a very high cost while cheating the system. This isn't the only law enforcement agency that should have employees investigated. If they are cheating on their time sheets, wonder what else they are cheating or lying about? I skimmed through the report and they mentioned a possible 122 employees that do not report in to a location that could be involved and they found 18 and 8 that they couldn't locate the harvest reports which sounds fishy. Regardless 18 out of 122 employees, that is roughly 15 percent of employees cheating the system. We need to look at who is running things, clearly they don't have a handle on what there employees are doing and they are incompetent. If 15 percent of the people reporting to me were doing something like this, my boss would fire me. This is not the first issue with employees of the dnr in recent years and if they were investigated from top to bottom I am sure more issues would be uncovered.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree, that if it's 15% of the total employees, then a manager or two has to be involved as well. At the very least, the manager is not following the policies in place. 

If they are deer hunting on company time, they could also be turkey hunting. They should check those permits as well. They also could be rabbit or pheasant hunting or fishing! Those animals don't get checked in! No wonder you can't get a wildlife out there when you report a poacher! Especially when the fish are biting! How many officers are pheasant hunting right after they release the pheasants in a public hunting area? 

All of this raises a lot of questions. More oversight needs to be in place and their time records must be audited regularly! GWs should be held to a higher standard since they are law enforcement. A few bad apples are giving the whole department a bad name, just like police departments! If guilty, they should be kicked out of their jobs!


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

If they are allowed to resign and walk away ( like cops do ) they will be able to go somewhere else and get the same kind of job using ODOW as their experience. (cops do it all the time, resign with no conviction on their record).

If they want to hunt, then they need to take vacation that week like the rest of us have to do (if we can).

Officers of the law should not be falsifying anything period !!!


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

buckeyebowman said:


> Some interesting points on both sides. As far as the names being published, remember when a certain person and firm was "under investigation" for dumping gas drilling waste water into the Mahoning River? His name was in the paper, as was his company's name, other officers of the company, and even the name of the truck driver who was ordered to do the dumping.
> 
> I know one of the guys who was named. I won't say who. Overall, he seems to be an OK guy, but he's done several questionable things during his tenure. He, and his son, routinely deer hunted an area that is supposed to be completely off limits to any trespassing or hunting. He confiscated a road killed deer from a friend of mine (who had a possession permit from the County Sheriff), telling him that you were only allowed one per year, permit or not. This was my friend's second. He lived on a road where lots of deer were hit, and this one was hit by a school bus that was coming to pick up his kids. He was waiting at the stop with them, and the bus driver told him about it! The GP showed up while my buddy was at work, and used a knife to cut a $300 bull rope that my buddy had used to hang the deer.
> 
> ...


Wow....thanks for sharing.


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

Government workers aren't subject to many of the restraints that regular citizens have to deal with. Especially law enforcement. I'm thinking this type thing happens much more often than we're made aware of, it gets pushed under the rug most of the time. As is often the case when police of any form get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they will find some way to reprimand them without costing their job. A few days off without pay, probably coordinated around the black powder season so they can hunt some more.


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## Scott Mick (Oct 18, 2006)

Richman said:


> Maybe I'm gullible or simply naïve....I'm guessing this is nothing more than simple clerical errors (payroll time sheets not matching up with officer daily reports, not matching up with radio logs).
> 
> I find it hard to believe 18 of these folks would purposefully break the law after watching what happened in southern Ohio and to ODNR administrators over the past 5 years.
> 
> ...


Agreed 110%


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## SteelEyes (Jul 1, 2013)

reo said:


> [url]http://watchdog.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf/investigations/2012-CA00061.pdf


After reading the report, for the most part I am failing to see any wrongdoing at all. Most of the inferences assume that they are working a continuous 8 or 12 hour shift, which is not the case. They are the sole ODNR DOW Law Enforcement employee for their respective counties, and are effectivly on duty 24/7, so they work intermittent hours in reality. At-Large Wildlife Officers are assigned to regions and are dispatched by the regional headquarters, I believe. Not even sure how many Larges there are.

A lot of the items are about checking in deer on state time, which doesn't seem to be an issue, since check-in is just dropping off a piece of paper at a check location that the wildlife officer regularly would be visisting during deer gun season, and is an act that literally takes no time whatsoever.

The timekeeping issues can be interpretted a number of different ways across the various situations. Since there are no physical locations for wildlife officers to 'clock in' at, it appears they do it either electronically or via a logbook. Many of the timekeeping issues could either be an issue of the state failing to provide adequete timekeeping methods, or poor record keeping on the part of the wildlife officers. If it is just poor recordkeeping / policy adherence by the wildlife officers, that isn't really a crime, just an HR issue that is common across workplaces both public and private.

So we can safely assume that these guys aren't accuratly tracking their time worked, but that can go the other direction as well, so they may not be claiming all time worked. For the investigation to be thourough the IG should have pulled all the supplemental records, tickets, etc. that the wildlife officers produce. Believe all that paperwork, tickets, etc have time noted. Point being if you know their time records are terribly wrong, their deer harvest/check-in can't be the only document you use to validate it, should be checking all the other documents they generate (work product) as well.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

jeffk said:


> Government workers aren't subject to many of the restraints that regular citizens have to deal with. Especially law enforcement. I'm thinking this type thing happens much more often than we're made aware of, it gets pushed under the rug most of the time. As is often the case when police of any form get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they will find some way to reprimand them without costing their job. A few days off without pay, probably coordinated around the black powder season so they can hunt some more.


Agreed. This is the norm. The blue line rarely gets broken so people don't get to see what goes on behind the the scenes. 

Someone earlier in the thread posted about possible political motivations behind this - I'm sure that's true too. There's an internal struggle where the enforcers are sacrificing some of their own in order to achieve something. Just another day in la la land.


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## carp (Oct 31, 2011)

Live by the same standard you measure the general hunting public.

The the rule we should all live by: Golden Rule; 

DO UNTO OTHERS, AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM, DO UNTO YOU!

Obviously the everyday hunter would not be permitted to get away with these same set circumstances, or activities, so why should it be OK for wildlfe officers to.

Several of the Brown county offciers were just repreminded for these same events last year.


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

SteelEyes said:


> After reading the report, for the most part I am failing to see any wrongdoing at all. Most of the inferences assume that they are working a continuous 8 or 12 hour shift, which is not the case. They are the sole ODNR DOW Law Enforcement employee for their respective counties, and are effectivly on duty 24/7, so they work intermittent hours in reality. At-Large Wildlife Officers are assigned to regions and are dispatched by the regional headquarters, I believe. Not even sure how many Larges there are.
> 
> A lot of the items are about checking in deer on state time, which doesn't seem to be an issue, since check-in is just dropping off a piece of paper at a check location that the wildlife officer regularly would be visisting during deer gun season, and is an act that literally takes no time whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Well go back and read the geuaga county one he was on the clock when he harvested his. If this helps clear that up any. So one has to wonder how much time was so ent hunting as well.

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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

I would love to know how many of you guys who are calling for the heads of the accused are doing so from your place of employment.


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## SteelEyes (Jul 1, 2013)

ldrjay said:


> Well go back and read the geuaga county one he was on the clock when he harvested his. If this helps clear that up any. So one has to wonder how much time was so ent hunting as well.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Went back and read that one again. On the day he bagged his deer, October 15th, he was payed for 8 hrs of regular pay. His log shows him working 12 hrs on that day, starting at 8:23 am, and finishing at 8:28 pm. He effectivly stopped getting paid at 4:30 pm and harvested his deer at 6:45 pm. Again this can largely be attributted to bad recordkeeping on the part of the wildlife officer, which is not a crime on his part. When it comes down to it, and is cited a couple of times in the report, the legal requirement to accurately record employee is a burden born by the agency, not the employee, as noted on page 3 and page 14. The failure to accuratly recordkeep on the part of the employee is an ODNR policy violation, not a crime.

If you read the Recommendations as laid out by the IG, they are not recommending any criminal prosecution. They specifically note that what is needed is auditing, training, and improvement of the timekeeping system to comply with state law.


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## Alaskan (Jun 19, 2007)

I guess they get their day in court....but I have to wonder how well these excuses like "misunderstanding, mistake on paperwork etc" would hold up in the field if you get checked by a GW with an unsigned Federal Duck Stamp, or not having written permit on registered ground....or a "boat limit".


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I read everything and I disagree with those that feel this is simply a recordkeeping issue. I understand that is how the state is spinning the report. If that were truly the case there would be more than 18 WOs in violation in my opinion. How is it that the other 70 employees manage to get all their paperwork straight with zero issues?

I work for a professional firm...there is NEVER such a thing as a 40 hr work week unless you are part-time. We too flex...we get paid a salary to get a job done. We also must keep our time down to 15 minute incriments. We have a software system to enter your time and you must do so daily. However, most employees keep a written log each day and then subsequently enter into the system at the end of the day. We have several hundred employees and we don't have any issues at all. And on the rare occasion there is an issue - you are made aware of it the following business day. If an employee tries to "play" the system...management knows it within weeks and they are called to task immediately.

Knowing the county officer where I live and a little about how they operate (they are very much in control of their schedule with no micro management), I call total BS on these guys stating it is a clerical error. Clerical errors don't occur at this rate...it doesn't add up all the way around. And it isn't difficult to keep your time...a pad and paer is all you need!

In the end I will be shocked if anything at all happens to these officers other than adidtional "training" that we the taxpayers pay for. I know the WO in my county is a good guy that works hard to do things right.....I have a feeling he is really embarrassed by his peers. I'll get his take on it soon enough as we chat several times a year sharing a few private fishing properties.

There is obvious abuse in the ODNR....always has been. The bigger issue to me is at the top. It seems there is an environment of dishonesty and very little trust between the public and ODNR due to the shannigans the last 4-5 years and the fact little to nothing is ever done about any of it. 

I don't mind the WOs as they pose me no issue...I don't break any rules and rarely see them other than my local guy when we are fishing. But they have some bad apples out policing the public when they themsleves would be in boiling water if they didn't have that badge and acted how they do. It's like having a bad cop in the department, but in this case it is't a single rouge individual but a collective group of bad cops working in the ODNR.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

SteelEyes said:


> Went back and read that one again. On the day he bagged his deer, October 15th, he was payed for 8 hrs of regular pay. His log shows him working 12 hrs on that day, starting at 8:23 am, and finishing at 8:28 pm. He effectivly stopped getting paid at 4:30 pm and harvested his deer at 6:45 pm. Again this can largely be attributted to bad recordkeeping on the part of the wildlife officer, which is not a crime on his part. When it comes down to it, and is cited a couple of times in the report, the legal requirement to accurately record employee is a burden born by the agency, not the employee, as noted on page 3 and page 14. The failure to accuratly recordkeep on the part of the employee is an ODNR policy violation, not a crime.
> 
> If you read the Recommendations as laid out by the IG, they are not recommending any criminal prosecution. They specifically note that what is needed is auditing, training, and improvement of the timekeeping system to comply with state law.


OK, I've had about enough of this nonsense! Don't know if you're purposely playing a passive type of "Devil's advocate" here, but your level of tolerance has become downright treacly! 

Consider your own words which I have highlighted. The officer logged in at 8:23AM, and gets paid for 8 hours no matter when he logs out. He logs out at 8:28PM knowing full well that he *did not* work 12 straight hours! The deer harvest time of 6:45PM proves that! So, why not just log out at 4:28PM? What do you think? That he walked into the woods at 6:44PM, whacked the deer, and his hunt lasted all of one minute? Hmmmm! That last sentence just brought further suspicions to my mind. Sounds like the way poachers operate! 

There are only two options here. Either the guy is scamming the system, or he is so damn dumb he has no business being a GP! To make such an idiotic "clerical error" either involves colossal stupidity or outright chicanery! Like Fish-N-Fool I, too, have to enter my hours worked into a computer system. And believe me, there ain't no futzing around! If you try to get away with anything, you will be called on it. But, I guess that's the difference between private money and taxpayer money. Far too often taxpayer dollars are abused, wasted, and misspent! The powers that be see our wallets, pocketbooks and bank accounts as bottomless pits that they can dip into whenever they please!


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

SMH... give them their day in court boys... so far none have been charged.

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## Angler ss (May 15, 2008)

I understand where alot of you guys are comeing from about abuse of power.I don't like to be bothered by the dow,odnr or any other law inforcement when I know I am not doing anything wrong.It makes me sick to see cleveland firefighters get paid OT when they are really home on the couch.I understand your anger and making a false time card is wrong the should get some kind of punishment. That said there is some positive to a ODNR officer being out in the woods hunting or not.We used to lease a marsh for duck hunting along the shore of the Sandusky bay. I know for a fact the local warden was hunting on the clock he would set up in his boat along the shore put out a spread of decoys and hunt. One day we where walking along the outer wall of the marsh and he stood up in his boat showed his badge and asked if he could check our license/ stamps my dad and him became friends over the years.He handed out countless fines over the years for tresspassing,shooting to early,over the daily bag limit,he caught guys with lead shot several times,once there where two foreign guys who could hardly speak English hunting ducks with out stamps or a plug in there gun. Again I understand they lied and that was wrong but at least the where out with eyes in the woods could have been sitting at a bar or strip club while on the clock.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

There is real problem with abuse of power by some WO. I don't know all of the officers involved, but I do know that 2 of them deserve to be removed from duty. This does not surprise me.


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

buckeyebowman said:


> OK, I've had about enough of this nonsense! Don't know if you're purposely playing a passive type of "Devil's advocate" here, but your level of tolerance has become downright treacly!
> 
> Consider your own words which I have highlighted. The officer logged in at 8:23AM, and gets paid for 8 hours no matter when he logs out. He logs out at 8:28PM knowing full well that he *did not* work 12 straight hours! The deer harvest time of 6:45PM proves that! So, why not just log out at 4:28PM? What do you think? That he walked into the woods at 6:44PM, whacked the deer, and his hunt lasted all of one minute? Hmmmm! That last sentence just brought further suspicions to my mind. Sounds like the way poachers operate!
> 
> There are only two options here. Either the guy is scamming the system, or he is so damn dumb he has no business being a GP! To make such an idiotic "clerical error" either involves colossal stupidity or outright chicanery! Like Fish-N-Fool I, too, have to enter my hours worked into a computer system. And believe me, there ain't no futzing around! If you try to get away with anything, you will be called on it. But, I guess that's the difference between private money and taxpayer money. Far too often taxpayer dollars are abused, wasted, and misspent! The powers that be see our wallets, pocketbooks and bank accounts as bottomless pits that they can dip into whenever they please!


That's what I was getting at. Just don't ever have the time to write that much.


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## 1bowhntr (Mar 17, 2011)

i have to call bs on all of it there is not one person in this world can say all i just made a mistake. if you know the only way your going to get paid for your work done is to write it down you can bet your $$ that your going to write it down and keep track of it so if there is an error it is going to be in your favor nobody ever wants to be shorted on there paychecks i know i sure dont sounds like to me they knew what they was doing. and i would say there was some bragging about killing a deer and getting paid for it


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

Seems every time I turn around I am reading of more and more corruption at ODNR..


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## Rabbeye (Oct 28, 2013)

Time that the people running the dnr are held accountable. They don't have a handle on their (our) employees. Gws need to be able to mange themselves on a day to day basis, clearly they cannot. I find it hard to believe these are the only occurrences such as this, in fact I'm willing to bet this is just the tip of the iceberg. 

This is just typical of overpaid, underperforming, lazy, unproductive government workers. This goes on all across government costing tax payers billions and billions each year. 

All law enforcement depts are thick as thieves and will lie for each other to the end. I don't trust any of them. They need to be terminated!!!

Clerical errors.........seriously?? If a person can't keep track of their time accurately, then they are incompetent and should still be fired. If they are this unscrupulous wonder how many times they walked into court and lied??? Probably about as many times as they did about hours worked.


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

I'd be interested as to how many of the bleeding hearts trying to defend this behavior are government employees. As has been pointed out by several posters, this is a SALARIED position. They should be out in the woods working, not hunting, during daylight hours. And some at night as well. The reason it's a salaried position is because the State doesn't want to get further nickle and dimed with OT and such. If they don't like the arrangement, get a different job that allows them to hunt on company time. Filling out time cards properly is on the first page of employee 101. I read the report, there's WAY to many clerical errors from a group of folks that are likely college educated ... filling in time cards accurately ain't rocket science. Ask any cop that when a criminal is caught if it's the first time they ever broke the law they are being arrested for. Most would tell you that the perpetrators have probably done those offenses dozens of time before, just never caught. The enforcement officials should be strictly following the laws they enforce. Read the Cuffs and Collars column some time, they don't cut much slack. Litter, it's a fine. Over limit, fine and privileges suspended. If I get caught hunting on company time, I'm stealing time, and that's an offense that has me looking for another gig. Quit making excuses for criminal behavior.


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## Lucky Touch Charters (Jun 19, 2011)

As everyone else these officers are innocent until proven guilty. So with that lets see what happens.

why is it that lately it seems everywhere you look the ODNR is in the news surrounded by negativity?

I can also say that I know of a few situations where the DNR was unethical and was money motivated and since those experiences and talking about them I have heard several stories relating to the same. 

I have personally witnessed (along with others) a ODNR officer lie and manipulate to write ticket violations. it was taken to trial and investigated and the accused offender was aqquitted of all charges. Then the officer was investigated and that was joke. They defended him as if nothing happened. 

Reading this report and considering other situations really got me thinking about how these guys can really abuse the system if they choose to do so. This report is about deer hunting. What about small game and fishing? if they got caught deer hunting/checking deer in on the clock who is to say they didn't small game hunt or fish while on the clock? Also consider that there job gives them the opportunity to do some scouting. What can that eventually lead to? I can see Many Many situations that could arise that the DISHONEST would take an advantage of.


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

vc1111 said:


> I would love to know how many of you guys who are calling for the heads of the accused are doing so from your place of employment.


Spring is a long way off......


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## nitro27 (May 31, 2009)

jeffk said:


> I'd be interested as to how many of the bleeding hearts trying to defend this behavior are government employees. As has been pointed out by several posters, this is a SALARIED position. They should be out in the woods working, not hunting, during daylight hours. And some at night as well. The reason it's a salaried position is because the State doesn't want to get further nickle and dimed with OT and such. If they don't like the arrangement, get a different job that allows them to hunt on company time. Filling out time cards properly is on the first page of employee 101. I read the report, there's WAY to many clerical errors from a group of folks that are likely college educated ... filling in time cards accurately ain't rocket science. Ask any cop that when a criminal is caught if it's the first time they ever broke the law they are being arrested for. Most would tell you that the perpetrators have probably done those offenses dozens of time before, just never caught. The enforcement officials should be strictly following the laws they enforce. Read the Cuffs and Collars column some time, they don't cut much slack. Litter, it's a fine. Over limit, fine and privileges suspended. If I get caught hunting on company time, I'm stealing time, and that's an offense that has me looking for another gig. Quit making excuses for criminal behavior.



According to the dnr website gws are paid hourly, and is not that much


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

No, it's not salary. It's hourly.


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## pikekilla (Aug 28, 2012)

The clinically accepted version of Murphy's law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.. Pikekilla's real definition of Murphy's Law: Those things left unto themselves are destined to failure... This is a classic example of a failure of leadership oversight and structural controls..


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## Skippy (Dec 2, 2009)

jeffk,, 4posts and your calling people on here bleeding hearts. I've been on here for a few years and read most of the posts that are made and I for one would not call anyone on here a bleeding heart!! Differences of opinion yes but not bleeding hearts. Government employe, Yes, back in 1968,69 & 70 when I came home from Vietnam all shot up. 

Do yourself a favor and go back and really read my first post on this subject then answer those questions. Let's put there names out there and form a lot of public opinion against them just like they knew it would. If it ever does come to trial they would have a hard time finding a unbiased jury and they know it.

Although I don't personally know any of these officers I do know some on a first name bases. High, higher ups then the ODNR are stirring the pot and want control of everything. The bottom line of this whole thing is money, lots of money. The writings on the wall for all to see "IF" you look into the whole picture.


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

Many opinions, but now it is starting to get personal. Time to close down this discussion and wait and see what happens from here.


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