# Grand Lake St Marys



## saugmon

I've heard the reports of the algae blooms at Grand lake and drove over there to check out a portion of the lake while running an errand. What a disaster. Last year it was red algae blooms,this year it's green,blue,and white scummy looking blooms. The stench is horrible.The wind blows that scum around the lake,so now it's on the south side.


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## ress

I read in the paper today the state closed the whole lake, no one allowed in it or on it.


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## killingtime

thats a shame i fished that lake alot when i lived just north of dayton. my parents had a cabin at bass landing and man was it a great crappie lake. that lake would come alive with people during the summer, it was a good place to hang out and have fun.


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## stex1220

What do you think its from? Cant be good if they closed the lake


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## killingtime

i dont know what it is from but i still know alot people that live close to there and they say its from farm chemical run-off but the people i know are not biologists and neither am i so that is pure here say. i just hope they fix it. it was an awesome place to fish and duck hunt. lots of memories of me and my dad catching nice catfish off of windy point and a few nice jumbo perch also.


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## Lynxis

RESS

That is the first ive heard of that, and i cannot find any link from neither the daily standard (celina) or the courier (findlay) that backs that up.

Where did you read that?


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## saugmon

We saw 3-4 people fishing the east bank yesterday.Hopefully it was catch and release. Also saw a couple big boats further out.


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## GETTIN' THERE

Had these pictures sent to me, I would say the lake is in trouble big time!


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## Orlando

I stopped fishing that lake years ago because of it. It only gets worse every year.
To bad as it was a fantastic Bass lake, used to do real well there fishing tournys


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## walkerdog

Thats a shame! I myself have only drove by the lake never fished or boated there. I hope they soon find out the problem and get it resolved.


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## Lynxis

discussion about grand lake in the southwest ohio section too:

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=149907


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## 85jeepn

This is more here say not factual yet. I have a good friend who's wife works for the city of Celina and she says the only way that they can fix it now is to drain the lake.

Remeber this is just here say not FACT.


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## ress

I'am sure it was in the Findlay paper, not sure what day tho.


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## Bradfish

There was a story about it on Columbus 6 oclock news lastr night but I dont remember what station. Looks bad


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## ress

Another story with writing done by the AP in todays Findlay paper.


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## JimmyZ

I heard it on buckeye sportsman this morning. The state has a do not touch advisory. As in, don't touch the water. That is sad.


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## quackpot

I used to fish there a lot. I loved fishing Celina by the ramp.


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## andesangler

Man, Saugmon, that sure looks gross. I hope the same thing never happens at any of the other shallow lakes around here. Lessons to learn here, folks...

andesangler


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## thistubesforu

happens every year.


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## Orlando

thistubesforu said:


> happens every year.


Only getting worse every year


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## killingtime

hope they get it fixed it sure would take alot of pressure off indian lake and fort laramie and spread out the fisherman a little.


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## saugmon

The pressure on Indian seems to be a heck of a lot less than it was before the $4 a gallon of gas a couple summers ago. Before that,packs of 50+ boats weren't uncommon on indian.I couldn't pull boards near those packs years ago. Even this years bass tournaments are pretty dismal compared to years ago.


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## fishmounter

Ok.... I am gonna open a can of worms. (No pun intended....this is NOT funny) Whats going on with the lake. Simple. Farmers. You heard me, f-a-r-m-e-r-s ! Farmers are so greedy nowadays, they can't farm without spraying poison all over every square inch of the land. Every farmer wants to farm more than his neighbor, and jealousy and greed has ruined Grand Lake. Go ahead..... do all your studies. Take years to get your results. Ignore it some more like everybody has done for the last 10-12 yrs, as the lake turned into a pea soup green. That is the main result they will come up with, but nobody is going to touch the farmers. I used to be a farmer, so I know what I am talking about.


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## fishmounter

But....this is not just happening at Grand Lake, it is all over the country where there is crop and huge livestock operations.Animal waste is a big part of the problem. Big rains overflow the lagoons where farmers store manure on these mega farms, and the manure gets into tiles, which drain into creeks,rivers,lakes. Full of nitrogen, which depletes oxygen in the water. The biggest reason it is showing up in Grand Lake and not other lakes so much, is because Grand Lake doesn't have the flow through the lake like many other lakes, as it was built to supply the canal with water. So, it loads up in there, and just sets there. It settles into the bottom, and is there forever. When it gets hot.... BOOM !!! Green yuk !!


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## fishmounter

Farmers these days use much more fertilizers and chemicals than needed. The development of ethanol has compounded the problem. Now they have alot of extra money spend on more fertilizer, and more spray, and new equipment ( you ever see those HUGE sprayers ?) because of much, much higher grain prices. Just look at the price of farm land. It has shot up from, $2500/$3000 per acre to $8000/ acre ! Farmers used to spray very little, and depended on cultivating the crops to control weeds. Not any more. Crops have been genetically altered to be able to withstand all the herbicides. Where do the chemicals come from? The petroleum companies. By far the largest polluters on the face of this Earth. They have so much money, they pull the strings in our Gov't., and get away with murder !


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## fishmounter

I also have issues with all the building on our lakes. Way,way too many houses, and campgrounds. The State has allowed contractors to dig channels, into the farm fields on the south side of the lake, USING PUBLIC (Taxpayer,sportsman's ) WATER, so they can sell waterfront lots. More GREED ! Many of these city dwellers, also spray and fertilize their yards, sometimes several times a year. When it rains, where does it go? Into the lake of course ! A Game Warden told me 15 yrs. ago, that the DNR had done core samples in Maumee Bay. He said the levels of fertilizers ( he mentioned nitrogen....which takes the oxygen out of the water....no oxygen....no fish !) and herbicides and pesticides were astronomical ! And that was 15 yrs. ago. But, nothing was done to control any of it. Do you know that farmers can use any amounts of fertilizer they want? Anybody can operate a sprayer, and use any amount of chemicals they choose ? Why ? Because nobody is watching them... and nobody cares !


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## fishmounter

Only some is utilized by the plants, the rest leaches out into the creeks, and rivers, and lakes. If you think the lake is the only thing suffering from this overload, think again. I saw on the news, that fruits and vegetables have been found to contain 67 different herbicides/pesticides ! CANCER ANYONE ???
Where have all the rabbits, pheasants,quail,snakes,toads,frogs,salamanders,grasshoppers,butterflies,bees etc, gone? There used to be an abundance of all of these. Many of these animals live in the fields. The sprayer comes along, and covers them and their babies with a good dose of POISON. Guess what? They die. Some of the adults may be able to manage to survive, but the babies can't stand that poison. I believe that larger animals can tolerate it to a degree, such as deer and turkeys, but the smaller animals are much too delicate to withstand it.


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## fishmounter

One more change I have noticed over the years. It used to be..... all farmers were hunters and fisherman. Not any more, only a very low percentage are. They don't give a damn about fish and wildlife. They look at deer and rabbits as predators on their crops.
WAKE UP AMERICA !! The time to demand only organic crops, as well as livestock is URGENT! Prevention is the key here. Everybody saw what was happening to Grand Lake. That place used to be crawling with fisherman. Crappie tournaments, bass tournaments, catfish tournaments. They stocked the lake with walleye starting about 5 yrs. ago. Had a walleye tournament 2 yrs. ago with 100 + boats. NO WALLEYE WERE CAUGHT !! HELLOOOOO.....we've got a problem here !!! Stocking saugeye now...... what a waste that is. Why bother to stock a cesspool ?
Ok.... I know this is gonna tick some people off. But, mostly because they are the GUILTY ones. And they know it.......


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## fishmounter

WAKE UP AMERICA !!! , and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! LOVE IT....OR.... LEAVE IT !!!


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## Orlando

Its no secret that it is agriculture run off causing the problem at St Marys
Indian Lake had the same problem except not to this extent and also had a bad silt problem.
They started the Watershed program, who works with farmers to plant filter strips along creeks, river leading ingto Indian.
Another huge improvement was getting a everyone on a sewer instead on septic tanks
The water quality has increased a huge amount in the last 15 years. You used to be able to smell Indian Lake from ST RT 33 before you could see it.
Cant understand why StMarys isnt getting on baord with the program


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## fishmounter

And for those of you who think I'm wrong about the farming practices these days: Heres an experiment you can try....... Take O say 6-12 Round-up Ready Soybean or Seed corn, pour a little roundup and a few other herbicides/pesticides on it and feed it to your favorite pet and well wait and see what happens.
***** Now don't be dumb enough to actually do this-- but maybe this will hit home with a few of you that this stuff CAN'T be healthy for young/baby animals.*****


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## dirtydawg75

I know exactly where you are coming from fishmounter. We can all thank the most vile company on the planet, MONSANTO, for not only ruining our food supply but helping to destroy our water and wildlife in the process. The sad thing is it's only going to get worse and the majority of the public is unaware how damaging this kind of stuff is to our ecosystem. While watershed programs and sewers are good ideas and do help, it's not solving the real problem. It's like fixing your damaged ceiling but ignoring the huge hole in the roof.


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## fishmounter

Well said dirtydawg, all these things have come about as a "fix", but the real problem is the source of the problem. CHEMICALS! Farmer's use chemicals because that is the "easy" way to control weeds, and bugs. You hardly even see so much as a grasshopper these days. Ever wonder where all the Butterflies have gone ? There has been so much damage done to our country that most people don't even notice, it is pathetic. I have seen farmers these days that start spraying before they ever touch the fields in the spring, spraying 2-4 times over the summer, and even spraying the fields AFTER the crops are off in the fall. And you are correct, MONSANTO is behind it, BIG money can get away with anything.....to a point. Ever see the movie "Erin Brockavitch" ? True story ! It is up to us to stop it. Everybody.... call your Congressman, Senators,Representatives, and raise HELL... TODAY, right now, and don't stop until this CHEMICAL POISONING of our country is STOPPED !!


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## fishmounter

One other thing that ticks me off is how Ohio State University is pushing all these chemicals. Our OSU County Extension Agent's weekly article in the newspaper routinely recommends using CHEMICALS as a method to solve farming issues with weeds and insects. He never recommends cultivation as a tool. More profitable to spray. Thats what it is ALL about. MONEY ! At the risk of destroying our entire ecosystem. They call farmers "stewards of the soil", that is pure b.s. ! I 'd like to know how much money Monsanto is pouring into OSU (and other universities across this country) to promote this chemical genocide. You would think that the colleges would promote what is best for EVERYBODY, which is to protect our ecosystem, and our health. This is discusting ! We need to demand organic farming practices !


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## fishmounter

Please check out this website, and join the fight. These people are out to protect our streams, lakes, watersheds, and wildlife in Ohio. Do the right thing, and support their cause, and way you can. The more of us that support them, the more we can get accomplished asap ! Time is a wasting.......

http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/ohio/preserves/

Or do a search for "Ohio Nature Conservancy" Do it now......


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## eatwhatyoukeep

85jeepn said:


> This is more here say not factual yet. I have a good friend who's wife works for the city of Celina and she says the only way that they can fix it now is to drain the lake.
> 
> Remeber this is just here say not FACT.


I wonder how long it would take for the bulldozers to dig out six feet of muck over the entire lake? Can the muck be put back onto fields and plowed in?

You would think that they could fix it with dregging but it would take some serious dreggers, not the size of a pontoon boat. I've seen the ocean dreggers that suck sand up hundreds of yards off the beach and then deposit it back on the beach but you would have to have somewhere to pump it to.

There have been chemicals developed for potatoes and tobacco (maybe more) that are sprayed onto the field. The chemicals enter the plant and become poisonous to grasshoppers and other insects. But, it makes me wonder whether this could also be poisonous to us...


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## AvianHunter

I thought Roundup was neutralized once it touched the soil...
My own personal belief is that the monsoon rains you recieved in that area caused much of the Nitrogen applied to farmlands to run off and end up in GLSM. Last I checked Nitrogen was pretty good food for plantlife...such as algae. I'd take the chemicals used today over the DDT and others used back in the 60's and 70's. 
You can't have it both ways people. Our farmers feed the world. Us included. There does need to be a balance, or perhaps an even more novel idea, natural wetlands or swamps to filter out these runoffs before they get into GLSM. A bit too late for that down there I suppose. Pretty sad.


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## fishmounter

Roundup neutralized when it hits the soil ?? That is crazy. Just how does that work ? Their own advertisements say it will last for up to 3 months. Cancer Doctors will tell you that studies have shown that the airborne drift of these chemicals can cover 10 miles. Farmers all say the same thing. "These chemicals are better than what we used to use". But...... what we used to use, was used sparingly, only in situations where it was desperately needed. And drops were used on sprayers that just put the spray exactly where it needed to be. Nowadays, it is open broadcast spraying, meaning EVERY SQUARE INCH of the soil is sprayed. Along tree lines, waterways, ditches,lakes,roads,schools,houses,playgrounds,etc. I swear if some of these farmers see one weed, they will spray the whole entire field......AGAIN !! Our farmers feeding the world?? Ha! Its funny, the Europeans (who have always been more advanced in the medical field ) won't buy our grain, or our meat. Our grain is loaded up with chemicals, and our meat is loaded with antibiotics and hormones. Because that is the only way they can keep them alive in high density confinement mega operations. That is why people are dieing in hospitals today from superbug infections, that antibiotics won't touch. They are resistant to it from all the antibiotics we injest in our meat. We can have it both ways! Clean water,healthy lakes and streams. It is called ORGANIC AGRICULTURE !


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## fishmounter

The big rains didn't CAUSE this problem. Although we did have a pretty good dry spell last spring for about 5-6 weeks. The farmers jumped in and got their crops planted, and sprayed,sprayed,sprayed. Then the rains came and washed it into the lake all at once. The rains may have contributed to it, but didn't cause it. The chemicals and fertilizer overload is what caused it. It would have all ended up in the lake anyway, sooner or later. You can't blame it on this years rains, this has been going on for the last 10-12 years. Manually cleaning up the lake, is fruitless, and money wasted, unless we stop this chemical pollution. Its funny, if it was just one individual, or an industry that was causing this pollution, people would be raising Hell ! And the Government would levy HUGE fines. Because it is farmers, everybody remains silent. Either get involved by speaking out, or be happy with your stinking,green,polluted,good for nothing hole !


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## AvianHunter

fishmounter said:


> Roundup neutralized when it hits the soil ?? That is crazy. Just how does that work ? Their own advertisements say it will last for up to 3 months.


Roundup Extended control may work for 3 months but that is a different product than regular old Roundup. I highly doubt farmers are paying for the extended stuff. That stuff is 'spensive.
...and for the record Fishmounter, I am not a farmer and never will be.
So you say organic farming is the answer? I can't wait to pay $20 for a box of cereal.
It all sounds good on paper but the practicality of it all isn't going to work. 
GLSM's best bet is to get some natural filtration like they are trying to get more and more of up here around Maumee Bay on Lake Erie.


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## saugeyesam

It sucks that this has happened but instead of spewing hatred for farmers and there farming practices on a fishing message board try a positive approach and maybe try and do something about it. Not trying to be rude but complaining about it on here isn't doing any good.


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## fishmounter

What better place to try and rally support for stopping the insanity that has destroyed Grand Lake St. Marys. And I don't hate farmers, I have many friends that are farmers. I used to be one. But I can't agree with their practices destroying our ecosystem. I don't begrudge anybody making a living, but, I don't condone bank robbing either. Do you ? This is just the beginning. This same problem is showing up in other lakes wherever there is agriculture. The saddest part of all of this, is for good men, like yourself, who do nothing, but yet criticize someone who does !! Don't wait until your fishing is gone to complain, thats a bit too late. Prevention is the cure.


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## M.Magis

I&#8217;ll say first I didn&#8217;t read the last few posts here, but I&#8217;ve seen enough stupidity already that I didn&#8217;t feel like wasting any more of my time. First, Fishmounter, you don&#8217;t have even a small clue as to what you are spouting off about. Did you know that glyphosate is NOT poisonous? Did you know that people have consumed if before? Did you know it becomes inert the moment is gets to the soil? No, you didn&#8217;t know that. The &#8220;Extended&#8221; Roundup is more than just glyphosate. Roundup Ready means nothing more than it is not effected by glyphosate, that all it means. Regardless, to blame an HERBICIDE for an algae bloom is just plain silly, to put it nicely. Algae blooms are typically caused be runoff from excessive fertilizer. Guess who uses excessive fertilizer? Suburban homeowners. Because of prices, farmers calculate exactly how much fertilizer they need, and most often use less than needed. Homeowners don&#8217;t do soil tests, they buy a bag of 12-12-12 and put it on the yard, needed or not. I&#8217;m not a farmer, and I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s causing the problem, but I know you need to quit spouting off about things you know nothing about, and placing blame for a serious problem on those who don&#8217;t deserve it.


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## fishmounter

I've got news for you Avian Hunter. The Roundup farmers use is way more potent than what you can buy over the counter. You really think they are going to sell the strongest stuff to just anybody ? Farmer's buy in bulk anyway, so it is MUCH cheaper for them than the public. THAT is a FACT !
People are ignorant these days when it comes to farming. Most all don't have a clue to what is happening out there on a farm. Funny, farmer's used to be organic. Or at least very little chemicals were used. It wasn't until Monsanto genetically altered crops to withstand their poison that this problem began. Now, everything is sprayed, even wheat, soybeans,corn,and hay ! Before that, you couldn't use these chemicals, it would kill your crops. So farmers were alot more organic. They cultiveted to control weeds. All of them. And cereal wasn't $20.00 / box then either. The dumbest thing our Gov't has done in recent years, it to try and make gasoline out of our food source. That is what has driven up food prices. The only way to solve this pollution problem, is to go directly to the source, and STOP it ! Any other method will take decades if not longer to produce acceptable results. Let me ask you this. If your next door neighbor was constantly spraying his lawn, bushes,etc., and the drift was going into your swimming pool,where your kids swim with their friends, or into your pond, or into your dogs water bowl.....what would you do ??


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## M.Magis

Again Fishmounter, you seem to have zero knowledge regarding glyphosate, Round Up, and farming in general. Zero. It&#8217;s funny you claim to have once been a farmer. A garden does not make you a farmer.


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## fishmounter

There is a reasonable correlation between the amount of Roundup ingested and the likelihood of serious systemic sequelae or death. Ingestion of >85 mL of the concentrated formulation is likely to cause significant toxicity in adults. Gastrointestinal corrosive effects, with mouth, throat and epigastric pain and dysphagia are common. Renal and hepatic impairment are also frequent, and usually reflect reduced organ perfusion. Respiratory distress, impaired consciousness, pulmonary oedema, infiltration on chest x-ray, shock, arrythmias, renal failure requiring haemodialysis, metabolic acidosis and hyperkalaemia may supervene in severe cases. Bradycardia and ventricular arrhythmias are often present pre-terminally. Dermal exposure to ready-to-use glyphosate formulations can cause irritation, and photo-contact dermatitis has been reported occasionally; these effects are probably due to the preservative Proxel (benzisothiazolin-3-one). Severe skin burns are very rare. Inhalation is a minor route of exposure, but spray mist may cause oral or nasal discomfort, an unpleasant taste in the mouth, tingling and throat irritation. Eye exposure may lead to mild conjunctivitis, and superficial corneal injury is possible if irrigation is delayed or inadequate.[


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## AvianHunter

Why doesn't the Monsanto poison that is running off kill the algal plantlife in the lake then? The algae isn't gentically altered to withstand it I wouldn't think. ...at least I haven't seen any RR2 Blue Green Algae seed for sale anywhere yet...





fishmounter said:


> I've got news for you Avian Hunter. The Roundup farmers use is way more potent than what you can buy over the counter. You really think they are going to sell the strongest stuff to just anybody ? Farmer's buy in bulk anyway, so it is MUCH cheaper for them than the public. THAT is a FACT !
> People are ignorant these days when it comes to farming. Most all don't have a clue to what is happening out there on a farm. Funny, farmer's used to be organic. Or at least very little chemicals were used. It wasn't until Monsanto genetically altered crops to withstand their poison that this problem began. Now, everything is sprayed, even wheat, soybeans,corn,and hay ! Before that, you couldn't use these chemicals, it would kill your crops. So farmers were alot more organic. They cultiveted to control weeds. All of them. And cereal wasn't $20.00 / box then either. The dumbest thing our Gov't has done in recent years, it to try and make gasoline out of our food source. That is what has driven up food prices. The only way to solve this pollution problem, is to go directly to the source, and STOP it ! Any other method will take decades if not longer to produce acceptable results. Let me ask you this. If your next door neighbor was constantly spraying his lawn, bushes,etc., and the drift was going into your swimming pool,where your kids swim with their friends, or into your pond, or into your dogs water bowl.....what would you do ??


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## fishmounter

In 1996 Monsanto was accused of false and misleading advertising of glyphosate products, prompting a law suit by the New York State attorney general.[84]

On Fri Jan 20, 2007, Monsanto was convicted of false advertising of Roundup for presenting Roundup as biodegradable and claiming that it left the soil clean after use. Environmental and consumer rights campaigners brought the case in 2001 on the basis that glyphosate, Roundup's main ingredient, is classed as "dangerous for the environment" and "toxic for aquatic organisms" by the European Union.


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## M.Magis

AvianHunter said:


> Why doesn't the Monsanto poison that is running off kill the algal plantlife in the lake then? The algae isn't gentically altered to withstand it I wouldn't think. ...at least I haven't seen any RR2 Blue Green Algae seed for sale anywhere yet...


Careful, you're using commone sense and logic. Fishmounter isn't likely to understand and will fire back with a completely irrelevant copy and paste.


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## fishmounter

Aquatic effects

Glyphosate is one of the pesticides that pose the greatest danger to amphibians.[64] Fish and aquatic invertebrates are more sensitive to Roundup than terrestrial organisms.[42] Glyphosate is generally less persistent in water than in soil, with 12 to 60 day persistence observed in Canadian pond water, yet persistence of over a year have been observed in the sediments of ponds in Michigan and Oregon.[35]
The EU classifies Roundup as R51/53 Toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment.[65]

Roundup is not registered for aquatic uses[66] and studies of its effects on amphibians indicate it is toxic to them.[67] Other glyphosate formulations that are registered for aquatic use have been found to have negligible adverse effects on sensitive amphibians.


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## fishmounter

Go ahead boys....drink up !!


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## fishmounter

Other added chemicals (particularly surfactants, e.g. polyoxy-ethyleneamine, POEA), can be more toxic than glyphosate itself.[18] Over-application, or application directly to the soil may impact earthworms. Surfactants make roundup stick to whatever it hits.


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## fishmounter

Amazing what the FACTS will do !!! Hear that ? Shhhh....... listen......SILENCE !!


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## Saws21

Avian Hunter and M. Magis--- maybe just before you spout off as well you should look into the facts.... fact 1- Florida has tried dealing with blue-green algae for years and have not found anything to fix their problem,,, and no, just because glyphosate is getting into the lake doesn't mean it'll kill the algae! It doesn't even phase it! Algael growth is nothing compared to farm crops.
And glyphosate is not a poison??? HHmm,, pretty sure it kills the hell out of about any plant it touches,,,, that maybe why they say to handle it and other farming chemicals while wearing person protection equipment, like gloves!


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## M.Magis

fishmounter said:


> Amazing what the FACTS will do !!! Hear that ? Shhhh....... listen......SILENCE !!


I can't speak for everyone, but my silence is based on being left speechless from your ignorance. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about. It's a shame, this was in important thread before you hijacked it.


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## M.Magis

Saws21 said:


> Avian Hunter and M. Magis--- maybe just before you spout off as well you should look into the facts!


You should follow your own advice. You understand glyphosate as well as fishmounter does. I dont have the time or interest, or even the knowledge, to explain it all to you. I can tell you that you have a lot to learn, and its ridiculous to think an herbicide would cause an algae bloom. The only reason its being discussed is because fishmounter brought it up. It has zero relevance in a case like this.


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## Saws21

you may want to re---read,, I never said it had anything to do with the algael bloom... just saying we put plenty of chemicals on our food. The problem with the bloom is all the manure that runs off into the lake and the lawn fertilizer and etc,,, that is what causes excessive algae blooms,,, phosphorus!


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## M.Magis

Saws21 said:


> you may want to re---read,, I never said it had anything to do with the algael bloom... just saying we put plenty of chemicals on our food. The problem with the bloom is all the manure that runs off into the lake and the lawn fertilizer and etc,,, that is what causes excessive algae blooms,,, phosphorus!


Okay, I agree completely about that being a likely culprit. Still, glyphosate is not the monster some people try to make it out to be. It's problably less toxic than many things we consume every day.


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## JamesT

I have a very small pond in my backyard. Last summer the neighbor went around and sprayed roundup all around it to kill the weeds. Within 2 weeks there were 4 dead fish. Other than this, in the 6 years I have lived here, I have never seen a single dead fish. Just my personal experience with roundup.

Feel free to google "roundup effects on fish" "roundup effects on the environment" and "roundup effects on humans" to read more.

My brother bought a place in muirfield with a creek in his back yard. His neighbor told him to be sure to spray with roundup when it dries up to get rid of the unsightly algae. Guess where it ends up? Scioto River.

It should not be surprising to anyone that all manmade pesticides, herbicides, insecticies, etc are harmful to the environment.

The algae bloom though is another story. I think this is mostly from overfertilizing - both farms and individuals.


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## fishintechnician

I'm bonna chime in here folks, what is causign the algae bloom the fertilizer run off into the lake (nitrogen and phosphorus), why is it worse this year than last? It is a new and different strain of algae, blue green alage is not actually an algae it is a bacteria (ciano bacteria). What can you do about it? Not much if you just sit around and complain about big corporations. I work for a company that is currently trying to help remove alage from the water we are also growing our own strains of algae to make fuel out of. The statement that it could be round up doing this is just crazy, it would have a negative effect on the algae if it had any at all, altough I do agree that it is not good in the water or for the wildlife. And another fact that algae is nothing like farm crops is true. Certain strains (most) are super delicat while a few are super hardy it just depends on what type it is and what the conditions are, it will prolly be a different strain next year. Agae is the most abundant plan ton earth period.


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## dirtydawg75

It may or may not have anything to do with the algae, but what fishmounter, JamesT, Saws21 and others are saying about farming and chemicals is pretty accurate. The real scary part is that the facts that were shared here barely scratch the surface. We've been researching this subject for years and i feel comfortable arguing, discussing, or debating this topic with anyone. Granted this has gotten way off topic from Grand Lake St. Marys but i hate it when people call others "ignorant" when they are the ones lacking in knowledge or simply don't care.


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## spoonchucker

Amen fishmounter, you put the facts up and people go off. just goes to show how stupid people are and why no problems are ever solved. I would have to agree with everything you have said, fertilizer has made the algea take off, and the govt backs it because fertilizer is big money (the root of all evil) they wont back organic because its clean and cheap


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## M.Magis

Well, I'm done here. It's amazing the ignorance I'm seeing, though I guess not surprising. Fishmounter never said anything abut fertilizer, the rest of us did. He went off on his rant about Round Up and farmers, which have nothing to do with this problem. BTW, the *only* facts fishmounter posted are those he copy and pasted, and they amounted to almost nothing. Many of the foods we eat every day come with the same warnings, it's all in how they are presented. You are all free to be sheep if it makes you happy. I'll start up an organic garden and charge you all 10x the normal price for a tomato.


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## Lynxis

His first several posts contained "anything about fertilizer".


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## BFG

I grew up just north of that area (Van Wert) and there is something in the soil, water, and air in that part of the world that causes cancer. 

It is a good reason to move. GLSM has been a stinking pit ever since I can remember (back to the 70's). It is a stagnant water system that for the most part never gets stirred up with the exception of jet skis or fishing boats. 

You want to see a real algae bloom? Look at the current MODIS picture of Lake Erie's Western basin. THAT is a lot of algae....


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## dirtydawg75

M.Magis said:


> Well, I'm done here. It's amazing the ignorance I'm seeing, though I guess not surprising. Fishmounter never said anything abut fertilizer, the rest of us did. He went off on his rant about Round Up and farmers, which have nothing to do with this problem. BTW, the *only* facts fishmounter posted are those he copy and pasted, and they amounted to almost nothing. Many of the foods we eat every day come with the same warnings, it's all in how they are presented. You are all free to be sheep if it makes you happy. I'll start up an organic garden and charge you all 10x the normal price for a tomato.


 Most of us who prefer organics already grow them or purchase them from a reliable source and isn't that much more expensive.Good luck with your new business! LOL


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## fishmounter

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.


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## Saws21

M.Magis said:


> Well, I'm done here. It's amazing the ignorance I'm seeing, though I guess not surprising. Fishmounter never said anything abut fertilizer, the rest of us did. He went off on his rant about Round Up and farmers, which have nothing to do with this problem. BTW, the *only* facts fishmounter posted are those he copy and pasted, and they amounted to almost nothing. Many of the foods we eat every day come with the same warnings, it's all in how they are presented. You are all free to be sheep if it makes you happy. I'll start up an organic garden and charge you all 10x the normal price for a tomato.



M. Magis, You need to take the time and read all fishmounters posts on this thread, Its pretty clear to me that he mentions fertilizer and nitrogen being problems with the Lake, he just threw in Roundup also. re-read and you'll see


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## Saws21

fishmounter said:


> The big rains didn't CAUSE this problem. Although we did have a pretty good dry spell last spring for about 5-6 weeks. The farmers jumped in and got their crops planted, and sprayed,sprayed,sprayed. Then the rains came and washed it into the lake all at once. The rains may have contributed to it, but didn't cause it.* The chemicals and fertilizer overload is what caused it.* It would have all ended up in the lake anyway, sooner or later. You can't blame it on this years rains, this has been going on for the last 10-12 years. Manually cleaning up the lake, is fruitless, and money wasted, unless we stop this chemical pollution. Its funny, if it was just one individual, or an industry that was causing this pollution, people would be raising Hell ! And the Government would levy HUGE fines. Because it is farmers, everybody remains silent. Either get involved by speaking out, or be happy with your stinking,green,polluted,good for nothing hole !


he mentions fertilzer once here or atleast thats how I read it.


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## Saws21

fishmounter said:


> But....this is not just happening at Grand Lake, it is all over the country where there is crop and huge livestock operations.*Animal waste is a big part of the problem.* Big rains overflow the lagoons where farmers store manure on these mega farms, and the manure gets into tiles, which drain into creeks,rivers,lakes. *Full of nitrogen*, which depletes oxygen in the water. The biggest reason it is showing up in Grand Lake and not other lakes so much, is because Grand Lake doesn't have the flow through the lake like many other lakes, as it was built to supply the canal with water. So, it loads up in there, and just sets there. It settles into the bottom, and is there forever. When it gets hot.... BOOM !!! Green yuk !!


M. Magis, I don't know, but im pretty sure he's talking about fertilizer in this post as well


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## fishmounter

To M. Magis......Yea man, obviously, you CAN read, so try reading it ALL before you shoot your mouth off and end up sounding like a fool ! I did mention the fertilizer and animal waste runoff problem. Check the July 4 posts.
You can believe all the B.S. that Monsanto is shoveling your way, but I prefer the facts. Go ahead , drink up, you are the one that says its NOT poisonous.


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## fishmounter

Attached Images
File Type: pdf Picture 6.pdf (628.1 KB, 261 views)
File Type: pdf Picture 1.pdf (623.1 KB, 185 views)
File Type: pdf Picture 5.pdf (638.3 KB, 184 views)

Since some of you obviously didn't make the effort to read ALL the posts on here,and you seem to think the farmers aren't the problem, I copied and pasted these pictures from an earlier post also. Enjoy...............


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## Saws21

GLSM--THis lake needs some serious attention


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## fishintechnician

BFG said:


> I grew up just north of that area (Van Wert) and there is something in the soil, water, and air in that part of the world that causes cancer.
> 
> It is a good reason to move. GLSM has been a stinking pit ever since I can remember (back to the 70's). It is a stagnant water system that for the most part never gets stirred up with the exception of jet skis or fishing boats.
> 
> You want to see a real algae bloom? Look at the current MODIS picture of Lake Erie's Western basin. THAT is a lot of algae....


could you post a link to the MODIS pic? I can't seem to find it


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## wanderin_eyes

here the link

http://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/modis/region_map.html


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## eatwhatyoukeep

I don't blame the farmers and I have several in my family. My uncle once said he wouldn't touch tobacco because he knew what was on it. But, farmers really aren't making a decent living any more. The price of fuel and fertilizers is very very high and the price of commodities is too low to offset these costs. I read where one farmer said he made more money bushhogging alone the roads than he did farming. Another farmer said it is a great hobby if you have another job to support it. There aren't many of us that actually work a 14 hour day.

The government is in charge of what chemicals are legal to use and what is acceptable for us to eat. They dropped the ball before and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the new chemicals are very dangerous to us.

I definitely don't blame the farmers for the nitrogen runoff. If the lake was healthy that would set off a great algae bloom and make for a great environment to grow fish. If for example that happened here at Caesar Creek it would probably turn out to be a positive. But when you dump all of that nitrogen into a swamp environment it won't be pretty.


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## fishmounter

I don't blame farmers individually, it is an industry problem. And I feel that they have been misinformed by the chemical companies. When you ask a farmer about this , they all say the same thing. Its like they have been programed about what to say. Things like," Well, its better than what we used to use", and "Well, we don't use as much chemicals as we used too". Not entirely true. They are talking about application rates per acre. But.... now EVERYTHING is sprayed and fertilized, where several years ago, organic methods were used. But, just mention some of these environmental impacts,and you can see them thinking long and hard about it.
And these chemicals are not an asset to any body of water, Ceasars Creek or elsewhere. Although you don't see the effects there.Yea, it flows THRU many lakes..... but it all ends up somewhere ..... the core samples in Maumee Bay proves that. When it "loads up", then you will see the effects. As in GLSM.


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## Wiper Swiper

fishmounter said:


> Farmers these days use much more fertilizers and chemicals than needed.


Really?...doesn't that kinda go against the goal of turning a profit?

Nitrogen is applied at rates consistant with crop removal. You can't "bank" it. Over application just doesn't happen. Soybeans and hay crops (legumes) make their own nitrogen, so those fields aren't part of any particular year's nitrogen run off equation. Phosphorus can be "banked", but soil ph is critical as to how much. Potassium can also be "banked", shorter term, but again, not beyond the carrying capacity of the soil. Considering the huge cost of applying fertilizer, farmers have zero interest in seeing it run off their fields. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise?

We do apply more herbicides and insecticides than we use to. It's more cost effective than cultivation. Less cultivation means less siltation in our rivers and lakes. By far, the greatest contribution ag industry makes to degraded water quality is siltation. Farmers today are light years ahead of the "organic days" with their soil conservation and land use practices. As previously stated, the application of pesticides has nothing to do with the algae in the lake. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise?

Our quest to pave, construct, and hydro-modify everything in sight is causing farmers some major problems. Impervious surfacing is collecting storm run-off, and straight piping it to the river. We don't re-charge the ground water and by-pass the filter. Rivers and creeks rise faster than in the past, and flood the fields quicker. The "good" dirt is by the river. What's a farmer to do? Maintain riparian habitat and bufferstrips, and keep up the sod waterways I guess. Farmers understand that because fertilizer and pesticides are an expense. If they wash into the lake, it's money down the rat hole. 50 acres of asphalt around the new super walmart does far more damage to the hydrology of an area than 50 acres of corn could ever hope to do.

But, by all means keep ranting. Your straw man logic is quite entertaining! 

Peace.


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## Lynxis

So the director of the ohio epa concluding that it is being caused by agricultural runoff from farms south of the lake was achieved with "straw man logic"?

k...


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## Sanitarian2

M.Magis said:


> Ill say first I didnt read the last few posts here, but Ive seen enough stupidity already that I didnt feel like wasting any more of my time. First, Fishmounter, you dont have even a small clue as to what you are spouting off about. Did you know that glyphosate is NOT poisonous? Did you know that people have consumed if before? Did you know it becomes inert the moment is gets to the soil? No, you didnt know that. The Extended Roundup is more than just glyphosate. Roundup Ready means nothing more than it is not effected by glyphosate, that all it means. Regardless, to blame an HERBICIDE for an algae bloom is just plain silly, to put it nicely. Algae blooms are typically caused be runoff from excessive fertilizer. Guess who uses excessive fertilizer? Suburban homeowners. Because of prices, farmers calculate exactly how much fertilizer they need, and most often use less than needed. Homeowners dont do soil tests, they buy a bag of 12-12-12 and put it on the yard, needed or not. Im not a farmer, and I dont know whats causing the problem, but I know you need to quit spouting off about things you know nothing about, and placing blame for a serious problem on those who dont deserve it.



Magis, a couple of corrections or additional information regarding the points you and your "friend" has made on this topic. 
- The problem in the lake is Phosphorus(P), that is currently considered to be the limiting nutrient in the lake as utilized by the Algae/Bacteria. Home grass fertilizers typically have little P, they are normally extremely high in N, a 29-1-3 component mixture is common. Home fertilization of grass is not going to be a significant source of P in the lake
- The Grand Lake Water Shed is overloaded with livestock operations, most just below the CAFO requirements. Cooper Feeds has made a mint talking all the local farmers into chicken, turkey, and other livestock operations. Even seven years ago when I was involved with the watershed, Mercer Co. was short 35, 000 acres of land upon which to land apply their animal waste. They apply the animal waste in order to GET RID OF IT and not simply at the rate needed for fertilizer.
- Mercer Co. Farmers have a history of milk house waste and lagoons being discharged into the streams that feed the lake(Done on purpose because the fines are less than the cost to treat the waste-that is changing though)
-Mercer county feedlots are often along stream banks and if you drive the watershed you will see that they are often directly drained into the road ditch and catch basins. 
-Farmers actually plant in the road right of way/ditches, they weave in and out between the telephone poles.
- You are absolutely correct about the chemical/herbicide equation, it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ALGAE/BACTERIA, they are two completely different issues to say the least. Fishmounter is right in his assessment of the problem in terms of WHOM is to blame but wrong as too the specifics.


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> Really?...doesn't that kinda go against the goal of turning a profit?
> 
> Nitrogen is applied at rates consistant with crop removal. You can't "bank" it. Over application just doesn't happen. Soybeans and hay crops (legumes) make their own nitrogen, so those fields aren't part of any particular year's nitrogen run off equation. Phosphorus can be "banked", but soil ph is critical as to how much. Potassium can also be "banked", shorter term, but again, not beyond the carrying capacity of the soil. Considering the huge cost of applying fertilizer, farmers have zero interest in seeing it run off their fields. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise?
> 
> We do apply more herbicides and insecticides than we use to. It's more cost effective than cultivation. Less cultivation means less siltation in our rivers and lakes. By far, the greatest contribution ag industry makes to degraded water quality is siltation. Farmers today are light years ahead of the "organic days" with their soil conservation and land use practices. As previously stated, the application of pesticides has nothing to do with the algae in the lake. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise?
> 
> Our quest to pave, construct, and hydro-modify everything in sight is causing farmers some major problems. Impervious surfacing is collecting storm run-off, and straight piping it to the river. We don't re-charge the ground water and by-pass the filter. Rivers and creeks rise faster than in the past, and flood the fields quicker. The "good" dirt is by the river. What's a farmer to do? Maintain riparian habitat and bufferstrips, and keep up the sod waterways I guess. Farmers understand that because fertilizer and pesticides are an expense. If they wash into the lake, it's money down the rat hole. 50 acres of asphalt around the new super walmart does far more damage to the hydrology of an area than 50 acres of corn could ever hope to do.
> 
> But, by all means keep ranting. Your straw man logic is quite entertaining!
> 
> Peace.


Swiper, two things have been happening in the Grandlake/Wabash watershed that have caused this situation. First, the explosion of animal units, pushed by Cooper Feeds, has forced farmers to land apply waste not simply as a nutrient resource but to dispose of it. They have been able to keep the operations just below the Federal CAFO limits to limit regulations. I have been screaming about density issues for two decades and now the chickens have come home to drown.

Secondly, as long as seven years ago the P levels on fields in the watershed were over 900ppm, at that rate the ag expert predicted that the field would take over a decade(If no animal waste was added-just chemical N) to reduce the P to "acceptable" levels. That of course does not address the thousands of tons of P that have entered the lake, catching a ride on the sediment.


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## Sanitarian2

fishmounter said:


> I've got news for you Avian Hunter. The Roundup farmers use is way more potent than what you can buy over the counter. You really think they are going to sell the strongest stuff to just anybody ? Farmer's buy in bulk anyway, so it is MUCH cheaper for them than the public. THAT is a FACT !
> People are ignorant these days when it comes to farming. Most all don't have a clue to what is happening out there on a farm. Funny, farmer's used to be organic. Or at least very little chemicals were used. It wasn't until Monsanto genetically altered crops to withstand their poison that this problem began. Now, everything is sprayed, even wheat, soybeans,corn,and hay ! Before that, you couldn't use these chemicals, it would kill your crops. So farmers were alot more organic. They cultiveted to control weeds. All of them. And cereal wasn't $20.00 / box then either. The dumbest thing our Gov't has done in recent years, it to try and make gasoline out of our food source. That is what has driven up food prices. The only way to solve this pollution problem, is to go directly to the source, and STOP it ! Any other method will take decades if not longer to produce acceptable results. Let me ask you this. If your next door neighbor was constantly spraying his lawn, bushes,etc., and the drift was going into your swimming pool,where your kids swim with their friends, or into your pond, or into your dogs water bowl.....what would you do ??


I am by no means an apologist for Agriculture(see my previous posts) but you are wrong here again. Farmers today use far fewer pesticides/herbicides that they did twenty or thirty years ago. Much of that decrease is due to plants being engineered to need less and the chemicals being designed to be more effective.Don't buy into the "organic" is safer bunk, it's simply not true.


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## Saws21

Chemicals being engineered to be more effective,,,,, I believe that is basically the same as being more poisionous, making a poision more effective can't really make it any "healthier"

And I think that farmers do still use more chemicals now than 30-40 yrs ago,,, back then they would "spot" spray, or cultivate... Now they spray every square inch of every field with something.

Your diagnosis of the Lake problem tho is correct,, GLSM's problem= Animal Units... simple as that, If I'm not mistaken, Mercer county is ohios top livestock county..... I believe fishmounter and I didn't mean that the farmers are over doing it with chemical fertilizer, but like you said, its all the animal units, manure, that is being applied at a ridiculous rate cause there is no where else to put it.


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## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2, I appreciate your perspective. Welcome aboard. I hope you stay with us, particularly with respect to water quality issues. 

I do not have your knowledge of CAFO's in the watershed, but nothing you have reported suprises me. For the record, I don't consider owner/operators of mega feedlots as farmers. It's a fine line...but, one that fishmounter would be well served to try and understand.

A couple things strike me from your posts. You wrote-- *"Farmers today use far fewer pesticides/herbicides that they did twenty or thirty years ago."*

Gotta respectfully disagree here. I know this means nothing concerning the alage in the lake, but reduced cultivation (which is the trend in row crop production) mandates an increased reliance on applied herbicides/insecticides. Improved hybrid genetics don't stop a weed from growing, and more decaying organic material left on top of the ground fosters "bug" habitat. Through my eyes, "organic" farming (to any degree of efficiency) is less "safe" because it requires radical tillage, which increases erosion, thereby adding to siltation, the major pollutant from row crop production.

*"Farmers actually plant in the road right of way/ditches, they weave in and out between the telephone poles."*

Maybe...but, county engineers don't tolerate it like they use to. We would be better served by building officials paying stricter attention to impervious surfacing storm detention construction, and maintenance of the engineered systems in place. Again...it doesn't take much of a rain event these days to raise the river, and flood the fields.

*"Secondly, as long as seven years ago the P levels on fields in the watershed were over 900ppm, at that rate the ag expert predicted that the field would take over a decade(If no animal waste was added-just chemical N) to reduce the P to "acceptable" levels. That of course does not address the thousands of tons of P that have entered the lake, catching a ride on the sediment." *

Interesting...somebody (in ag industry) is missing the boat here. By far, the most expensive plant nutrient to apply is phosphorus. Considering that annual soil sampling services are now employed by the majority of successful farmers, to the point that individual fields are fertilized at different rates based on the composition of each acre (thanks to GPS), why is anyone in that watershed even applying phosphorus? Does it test as unavailable? Why don't they lime?

I'm glad you shifted the focus from row crops to confinment feeding. There's now no doubt in my mind you speak the truth, and have identified the point source. However, I still hold to the belief that we're all to blame. Those that point the finger at evil corporate "farmers," need to look in the mirror. Too many people (and 99 cent chicken nuggets) is the problem. Your local zoning official is the problem. Our demand for "cheap" is the problem.

Pay me now, or pay me later comes to mind. Heck, I can do better than blaming farmers. I blame fat people...  

Peace.


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## Sanitarian2

The P is not being added, the farmers are applying(or at least were) animal waste to the fields to meet the N requirements of the crop being grown. Since the P required by the crop was well below the N level required, the P continued to accumulate. About five years ago the suggestion was too apply the animal waste at a level of P required and adding N from a inorganic source. Problem here is that the watershed was already 35K acres short of fields needed to dispose of the chicken/hog/cattle waste. They attempted to dry some of the foul waste and sell it outside of the watershed, not sure how that went.

The no-till acreage in the watershed is extremely low as a percentage and AG is king in Mercer Co., the county engineer does not address planting in the right-of-way and the soils office simply runs interference for Cooper Feeds. OEPAODA have ignored the problem, partly because ODA's mission statement requires them to promote ag in the State and OEPA is scared of AG.


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## Wiper Swiper

I get that the overload of p is from the manure. But, you'll have a hard time convincing me that farmers in the shed have stop applying supplemental p. This tells me that through soil testing the accumulating p is bound and not available to plant growth. Generally, this indicates a low ph. Hence, my query as to why don't they lime and make more of the present p available to the crop of the season?

Reduced tillage doesn't always mean "no-till." Don't get me started on the OEPA. I've ignored that facet, partly because I thought you may have some affiliation with them.


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## rutnut245

I saw on Cooper farms site that their C.O.O. Gary Cooper has been appointed to an E.P.A. committee.I wouldn't expect any kind of solution any time soon.Kinda like putting the fox in charge of the hen house don't ya think?


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## Wiper Swiper

rutnut245 said:


> I saw on Cooper farms site that their C.O.O. Gary Cooper has been appointed to an E.P.A. committee.I wouldn't expect any kind of solution any time soon.Kinda like putting the fox in charge of the hen house don't ya think?


I'm sure a "healthy" donation to their general fund was required. Unbelievable...


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## GETTIN' THERE

I am so glad this thread is bringing some light to the subject. Sometimes highly emotional, but some good information seems to be coming to light. I can't understand why this is not being reported more in the media from Dayton, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Toledo. I feel unless serious pressure is put on our state officials the problem will fester like and ulcer with gangrene. This is a problem for the whole western half of the state if not the whole state, not just the Celina / St Mary's area. If St. Mary's dies, then we are all effected. The other lakes can't absorb the boating traffic that we have lost from Ohio's largest inland lake.


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## auglaizewader

Big solutions are the only chance that I see. There will be no overnight fix. It will take decades. Put in a dike to divide the lake in half. Drain one side completely down. Dredge sections of it, farm other sections of it, and repeat on the other side.

At the same time, reduce the heavy sediment and nutrient loading coming into the lake.


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## eatwhatyoukeep

Is there any way that the muck in st marys could be pumped out, dried and sold as topsoil or even plowed into fields. I have no idea of the residual chemicals in the muck but it could be tested.


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## bassmaniac

I know they have been dredging there for years and it never seemed to make any difference in the water quality. I could imagine how it must stink there for everyone that lives on the lake. I used to fish bass tournaments down there every year and even this past spring there was an FLW Buckeye Division tournament and an Ohio Federation regional held there with respectable results. I'm sure there is someplace for the fish to migrate to and survive, but something has to be done. It's just a shame that it has gotten this far, and I'm sure it's still just being "discussed" to come up with a solution to this problem. The people of St. Maries and Celina along with all the businesses there are the ones suffering the consequenses. No camping, no fishing or just going out for a cruise on the lake. All gone. Didn't the DNR release saugeyes there in the past? I had also heard the goose population there had added to the problems. Good luck people! I hope something is done there and SOON!


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## andesangler

Wiper Swiper said:


> ...I'm glad you shifted the focus from row crops to confinment feeding. There's now no doubt in my mind you speak the truth, and have identified the point source. However, I still hold to the belief that we're all to blame. Those that point the finger at evil corporate "farmers," need to look in the mirror. Too many people (and 99 cent chicken nuggets) is the problem. Your local zoning official is the problem. Our demand for "cheap" is the problem...


You know, that was my thought too, when I read this thread before you added this post. As long as people really like cheap omelets and chicken nuggets...

As for Sanitarian2 being affiliated with OEPA, many experienced local health guys would, well, let's just say that OEPA is often considered to be a bullying busybody.

andesangler


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## Sanitarian2

http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...-treat-toxic-algae-officials-say.html?sid=101


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## Brad617

Check this out when you have a few hours to read it!

http://www.wcsmradio.com/uploads/audio/Tt GLSM Action Plan 2010 07 09_1.pdf


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## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2 said:


> http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...-treat-toxic-algae-officials-say.html?sid=101


The comments section is far more interesting than the article. It is absolutely retarded to spend 7 million dollars, kick the can down the road, and then say the solution to the source is in "educating" farmers. 

Spend the 7 million on habitat restoration, enforcement of the clean water act, and prosecuting violators. Raise the fines, and make THEM pay for it.

Someone at the OEPA needs kicked in the marble sack.


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## fishintechnician

Our company got the report yesterday as well and when I heard that they want to use alum-sulfate to treat it all I could do was shake my head. In my opinion it may kill this years strand but it will be back next year and the year after that no matter how many times you try and treat it. They have already dumped massive amounts of copper-sulfate in there and it has done nothing. This is what is commonly used to treat small ponds for algal growth, turning the water the nice deep blue color. It had no effect. I fear that the lake will suffer major (if not total) fish kills and although it may kill the cyano this year it is found in almost all streams in ohio just not in the large amounts at GLSM. There are millions of types of algae in all of ohios water ways, they are just there in trace amounts or managable levels. When the time is right algae will bloom next year the question is what strain will it be and how bad will it be. My other concern on the alum sulfate is that it will travel out of the lakes down some of the tribs and cause problems with alot of the streams in that area. My opinion is that if they want to fix the problem they need to do a combo of sorts. First instead of using chemicals they should drain the lake and dredge, second they need to redirect some of the streams that are supplying the lake, not all but some. Then you need to monitor/educate/fine farmers so that the runoff problem is taken care of. Without this last step I think all of the efforts would be in vain and you will have the same problem down the road.


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## Saws21

so swantucky,,, is that like saying that no one is the United States should bitch about the oil spill in the ocean, pretty sure none of use own the land where the oil is coming from,,,,, 

I guess we should all just sit back and let it ruin the largest man made lake in the state, but then again maybe if all this was taking place in your backyard, and you had to deal with the smell of hog, cattle, and poultry mega farm **** and then throw in the stench of GLSM you might care a little bit more, I mean you can smell the lake 2-3 miles away from it.

And why should we buy the land to put buffer strips..... we didn't make the problem in the first place, pretty sure the farmers did, maybe they should foot the bill.

So lets take a problem that I didn't cause, and say that now I should buy the land to fix it!??!? something just doesn't add up???


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## Wiper Swiper

swantucky said:


> Bottom line is you all want to bitch and cry but YOU don't own the land. Start buying it with you attitudes and the problem will be sloved!


Last I checked GLSM was a state park. "We" do own the land, and "you" don't have the right to pollute it unchallenged.

Look swan, I've tried to make the point that there's blame on many sides, not just with corporate livestock producers. However, the reality is that now, if there's any salvaging of the resource, we've got to figure out where we go from here. _ "Stop yer whinning," _ doesn't really seem to help much with that direction.

I guess you're in the "just drain it" camp?


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## swantucky

All I am saying is us complaining here is not going to change anything. Unless people get involved things will stay how they are. I complain all the time about all the trash left at the Maumee every spring. I take a bag and clean up as much as I can. Not quite the same mess at GLSM but you get the point, unless people are willing to do something, nothing will change. 

I am sure there are already groups in the area that could use some help/money. The bigger the group, the more attention they get from policy makers.


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## Saws21

Guys, the reason for this thread is to make people that are not Locals to this area aware of the problem this Lake is having. And the point is to hopefully get people fired up and get a "group" up and running so that maybe "we" will have a voice. Now the state wants to treat it with Alum Sufite, we that still doesn't "cure" the Lake, all it will do is kill the algae for the year, Its like putting a bandaid on a person thats bleeding to death.

We have to fix the problem before we fix the Lake.


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## RedCanoe59

swantucky i want to thank you, not many who haven't lived in the area give the farmers any credit. auglaize angler has the correct solution. i grew up fishing grand lake and didn't think much of it when it was in it's better days. Saws 21 highlights my biggest problem with anybody not in mercer and auglaize county that wants to bad mouth the farmers. thoose people not in the area have no idea what is going on only what they hear on the news, which is marina and store owners say they are loosing business and it's the farm run off that is to blame...problem is lake laromie experiances the exact same run-off situtiation and we have not seen a problem there (yet). The problem is a 13 mile long lake that is only 7 feet deep. What makes me so impassioned about this subject is that the death of the lake is a shame, however is the tree hugging out of towners ban together and create legislation that puts even 1 family farm out of business i concider that a tragedy. The family farms are struggling even in the rich soils of mercer and auglaize county, most farmers take 2nd jobs to support the farm. lots of them are having to get inventive and raising freshwater schrimp and tilipa to make it. I believe what makes that area great is the morals and work ethic that are the rule not the exception. The schools in the area are among the best in the state among public schools. I would take a bet that the girls saving for college working at the check out at cheif in coldwater or gels market in st. henry wouldn't know what the ohio direction card was. Theese morals and work ethic are learned and based on the family farm. The only knock you can put on people from this area is they get together and drink to much beer. i beleive all of this is much more important then people from lima and dayton or where ever it is you live, being able to tow a boat and camper down to the camp ground once or twice a year. unless you live there and are a bait store owner, resturant owner or marina owner i say mind your own business. 
for the record


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## Lynxis

RedCanoe59 said:


> swantucky i want to thank you, not many who haven't lived in the area give the farmers any credit. auglaize angler has the correct solution. i grew up fishing grand lake and didn't think much of it when it was in it's better days. Saws 21 highlights my biggest problem with anybody not in mercer and auglaize county that wants to bad mouth the farmers. thoose people not in the area have no idea what is going on only what they hear on the news, which is marina and store owners say they are loosing business and it's the farm run off that is to blame...problem is lake laromie experiances the exact same run-off situtiation and we have not seen a problem there (yet). The problem is a 13 mile long lake that is only 7 feet deep. What makes me so impassioned about this subject is that the death of the lake is a shame, however is the tree hugging out of towners ban together and create legislation that puts even 1 family farm out of business i concider that a tragedy. The family farms are struggling even in the rich soils of mercer and auglaize county, most farmers take 2nd jobs to support the farm. lots of them are having to get inventive and raising freshwater schrimp and tilipa to make it. I believe what makes that area great is the morals and work ethic that are the rule not the exception. The schools in the area are among the best in the state among public schools. I would take a bet that the girls saving for college working at the check out at cheif in coldwater or gels market in st. henry wouldn't know what the ohio direction card was. Theese morals and work ethic are learned and based on the family farm. The only knock you can put on people from this area is they get together and drink to much beer. i beleive all of this is much more important then people from lima and dayton or where ever it is you live, being able to tow a boat and camper down to the camp ground once or twice a year. unless you live there and are a bait store owner, resturant owner or marina owner i say mind your own business.
> for the record


We give you plenty of credit: you did a great job destroying a 150 year old lake that has given countless individuals memories to last a lifetime. 

Based on your comments, you dont really care either. This is the exact reason legislation needs to be made and laws enacted to keep people who don't give a damn, like yourself, from destroying natural resources.


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## Sanitarian2

swantucky said:


> When all of you tools quit eating meat you can start bitching about how it is raised. Come on fellas, we want cheap food, this is how it is provided.
> 
> Small scale, large scale, all meat shits, it ends up somewhere. Too bad based topography it all runs into this lake. If you want to put you money where your mouth is, form a conservation group and start buying fragile habitat and stream shoreline and plant it in buffer grasses.
> 
> Bottom line is you all want to bitch and cry but YOU don't own the land. Start buying it with you attitudes and the problem will be sloved!


When the farmer keeps all his runoff water, nutrients, animal waste, herbicides/pesticides, flies/insects and odor on his own property he can do anything he wants, then it would not be our business. Industry doesn't get away with it, communities waste plants don't get away with it, but put the tag, "American farmer" on Ag business and it can do whatever it desires.

You have the most polluted watershed/lake in the State in Mercer County, it's time to start forcing compliance. Has OEPAODA even driven the watershed and addressed the feedlots with ditches run to catch basins, crops being planted literally within inches of ditches and streams? Have they noted the crop rows in the road right of ways? Have they cared when lagoons are designed to hold 6-9 months worth of waste, waste that then is applied when the farmer gets to it and not when it's safe? 

OEPA/ODA has turned it's head and coughed at this situation for two decades and now the cows have come home, chickens too. For a decade I screamed about density issues across the State, guess what folks, time to pay the piper.


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## eatwhatyoukeep

I don't think that cutting down runoff will be enough to solve the problem now, it has been going on for too long. Steps do need to be taken even if more also needs to occur.

I have watched farmers (my own family) change as financial pressures occurred. They used to only till at the top of a hill so that they wouldn't get runoff. Well, my uncle noticed that rock was showing up in one of his fields that one of his sons currently runs. He asked the other son about it and it was simple, the son began tilling down the hillside to get just a little more field space and the change in runoff was huge. Rock began showing up in only a few years as the topsoil ran down the ditches.

There used to be fencelines between fields which helped with runoff, they have been removed so farmers can produce a little bit more.

I agree 100% about not having any grass or hay growing around the proximity of fields to cut down on nutrient and top soil runoff.

I'm not familiar enough with Grand Marys to know specific problems with that area but you did a good job explaining them.


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## Saws21

Im not too sure if its true that lake loramie has the exact run off that GLSM has. Most of the livestock mega farms that are causing the problem are in mercer county, more specific, coldwater, st. henry, and ft. recovery, I dont' think there are too many streams/creeks over that way that run to Lake Loramie, seeing how Lake Loramie is in the Ohio River Watershed, and GLSM is in the Lake Erie Watershed. 
And the Lake hasn't always only been 7 feet deep, you'd be amazed if you only knew how many feet of nutrients are on the bottom that came from farmers.
Just like safety island on glsm, now its not so big, but when the lake was first dug, it was big enough that they actually farmed it.

And do any of you know what the farmers in mercer county are blaming the Lakes problems on??? They are saying that the Lake is like this because the geese and the fish crap in the water!! Now C'mon,,, I'm not positive but I believe that a turkey produces like 3X more fecal matter than a goose.

Fact is, we the people need to step up and start calling the governor and our state reps and complain about the issue,,, 

For a solution, Ideally ( I don't know how realistic it is), we need to stop the manure first, find a way to drain the lake while "Killing" the water that is draining so that GLSM's problem doesn't find its way into another body of water, and get the Army Corps of Engineers in there and make it 20-30' deep.


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## RedCanoe59

saws I agree 100% that the lake needs re-dug Im glad we can find common ground...I can only speak from up to 2004 but Ive worked on farms fort recovery, st. Henry coldwater(grand lake watershed) as well as farms as well in new Weston, Osgood, Yorkshire and new Bremen (lake Laramie) . I believe the state made a decision a year or two ago about a saugeye release because of concerns of the fish finding their way to lake Erie on accident and you are correct on that account. There may be small differences but farming practices are essentially the same (at least at that time). I will acknowledge that there are more dairy operations and less egg barns along 705 than in coldwater, but the area north of Lake Laramie appears to have very similar make up as st Henry coldwater and Maria stein. For those wondering how or why I worked so many places, until my junior year of college I never had a regular summer job. I was rarely without work because even when hay and straw wasn't coming off I would get called for other special projects (hired muscle) by various farmers. when you do your football workouts at 6am and ride your bicycle 5 miles in and 7 miles back(had to take different routes because of increased traffic at 730) stack bails in the loft from 9 till noon then stack 7 high with the 8th being cap on a wagon solo, from noon till sundown you develop a reputation (that was my high school routine)....even after I started doing log home construction I kept up those working relationships out of respect for those who taught me how to work...that is why I get fighting mad on this subject. Maybe things have changed and since I now just visit when I get time off and I just don't notice the difference. But as I said before they are very close and laromie doesn't have that problem. 
As far as not caring about the lake, my favorite memories of growing up outside of canoe trips into boundary waters and quetico are of watching rod tips with my dad by lantern on windy point and the stone pier at the lake campus. From April to September we went almost every Saturday on grand lake or Lake Laromie. So lynxis you can F.O. i simply care more about the hard working people who call the area home than those who drive down to burn some gas on the lake. sanitiairan2 I respect what youre saying about the runoff I would ask you keep cars CO2 emissions out of my airspace and then Ill concede that your right, but you do have a good point about run off. (I say tuff cookies about the smell move if you don't like it) My family doesn't farm and never owned a farm so even if the farms are solely to blame, you attacking me and saying I polluted the lake would be incorrect and you can also F.0. . eatwhatyou keep I respect your entry a lot, farmers are struggling and maximizing what they have. I have one question is your family members still deep plowing turning over the soil or are they using equipment like an earthmaster that minimizes surface disturbance. most farmers I know have gone to that method Im a little curious because I know when the farm I worked on most of the time made the switch it seemed like we were pulling more rocks out of the field as well. don't take that as an attack on their methods Im just curious....2ndly where in that area is a hill, it's flatter then a pancake saws I agree mega farms a problem, most of the farms you see with the high-rise chicken houses are family owned and subcontracted family owns the building and the company owns the birds....tighter regulations will affect the family farms first because ag corps have more resources at their disposal mega farms are only going to benefit from the void in the market created by the death of the family farm. 
In 1997 the state rebuilt the spillway. According to their studies the old dam was at danger for over the top complete failure. (as a note I never remember the spillway flooding before) when they (the state) re-did the spillway there were local concerns about flooding below the dam....a year later a flood that wiped out the area on the western side of the lake. There is an urgent care facility and a recreation facility that was closed because of repeated flooding in the following year. They may have re-opened I havent payed attention lately when I go by. 86 land owners filed lawsuit over the repeated flooding. (Mostly farmers so I can see there will be no love lost on his site) however in response to the repeated flooding the state lowered the base pool of the lake making it even shallower to combat the flooding problem. My point is the state didn't listen to local concerns and screwed it up...my fear is that lawmakers are going get flooded with calls by out-of-towners and make rash decisions from Columbus that hurt the quality of life of the area...
Contrary to the belief on this site agricultural runoff is highly regulated. The EPA has tight regulations on how much manure can be spread on an acre of land. To say they are unregulated isn't fair to the farmers or the EPA they are, and those regulations are enforced as best they can be....Im not saying everybody that breaks the rules gets caught. But the epa and odnr are diligent in their enforcement. I can tell you pea fines and restitution is no joke. 
I stated in my first post that unless your local mind your own business. I am being hypocritical because I live near canton almost 4 hours away, but I grew up there I have friends there and I believe what they tell me and what I see and what Ive seen in the past. However, in three years my wife and I have a decision to make whether or not to move back to the area and our main motivation for doing so is the quality of the people who live there, there is simply no better place to raise an honest hardworking family. The death of the family farms in my opinion hurts the very thing that could possibly make me want to move back. Fishmounter I respectfully disagree with just about everything you said but where you talked about agricultural industry being the problem not the individual farmer is great my problem with most of what is being posed directly blaming the farmers, they are just trying to hang on to their land and way of life, these folks don't deserve the tags some of you have put on them....
let the mudslinging continue sanitarium and lynxis Im sure you two will skim my response on only respond to being told to FO if you would like to continue calling me the jerk instead of debating the issue send me a pm and we'll work something out so you can call me whatever face to face. Saws much respect for taking my comments in stride even though we disagree


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## Orlando

I remember 12- 15 years ago when this all started on the south side of the lake one of the small creeks, rivers that came into the lake would have a very strong smell of pig manure. Had to be a large pig farm up creek that was running off into it . Anyone know if its still this way?
Are the houses of the lake on sewers or septic systems? 
Anyone know?
Seems to me the State has had its head stuck in the sand , looking the other way not wanting to address the problem that has been there for many ,many years. I hold them responsible as much as anyone else

I hope they actually do something about this as ST Marys used to be a wonderful fishery and can be again


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## Sanitarian2

"Contrary to the belief on this site agricultural runoff is highly regulated. The EPA has tight regulations on how much manure can be spread on an acre of land. To say they are unregulated isn't fair to the farmers or the EPA they are, and those regulations are enforced as best they can be....Im not saying everybody that breaks the rules gets caught. But the epa and odnr are diligent in their enforcement. I can tell you pea fines and restitution is no joke."

Simply not true, only a quarter of the farming operations in the Grandlake/Wabash watershed have a manure management plan and most of those are voluntary in nature with no oversite. Cooper Feeds and the boys have kept the animal unit numbers just under the CAFO requirements for a reason. I know farmers that split off acreage from the same farm that put in hen houses in the wifes name, one in the fathers, one is a sons, one in a daughters, all to avoid reguation, it's a common game in Ohio.


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## Sanitarian2

Orlando said:


> I remember 12- 15 years ago when this all started on the south side of the lake one of the small creeks, rivers that came into the lake would have a very strong smell of pig manure. Had to be a large pig farm up creek that was running off into it . Anyone know if its still this way?
> Are the houses of the lake on sewers or septic systems?
> Anyone know?
> Seems to me the State has had its head stuck in the sand , looking the other way not wanting to address the problem that has been there for many ,many years. I hold them responsible as much as anyone else
> 
> I hope they actually do something about this as ST Marys used to be a wonderful fishery and can be again


The South side of the lake was sewered a number of years ago and the lake experienced a perch boom, ice fishing was terrific. That Lasted about three years and then the increase in animal waste from the chicken operations started to overwhelm the benefit from the reduction in human waste. 

Chickasaw and SR 119(Parts of the Marion Local area)have been sewered, there are older farm houses with substandard septic systems(Crocks with no leachfields) that do empty into the lakes feeder creeks but that is a drop in the bucket(Plus a double whammy for the farmers, their houses are part of the problem too)


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## Wiper Swiper

This is starting to border on ridiculous...Sanitarian2, I seriously over estimated your objectivity.

To declare that the hydromodification of the watershed is soley the management of agriclutural activities is disingenious at best. You don't really believe that catch basins are only found at the end of manure lagoons, do you? How can you imply that soil conservation practices by farmers isn't light years ahead of where we were 20 years ago? Are farmers responsible for 100, or even 50 year weather events? Is it possible that all the road frontage farmers were forced to sell a few years back just to make ends meet has accelerated the drainage through impervious surfacing? You talk about animal densities, how about HUMAN densities? Seen any increases in that lately around the lake?

Guys, there's comparable negligence here. If elected officials are turning a blind eye towards serial violators, then our course of action couldn't be clearer...or, easier. Vote out the folks that don't represent your issues and concerns.

I'll say it again. 7 million of OUR dollars to poison the lake is not a solution. It all runs down hill. Start at the inlets, and work it backwards. For that kinda money, this non-point source problem should be easy to put your finger on. If alum will knock down the phosphorous in the lake, why wouldn't it knock it out where it comes into the lake?


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## auglaizewader

I think San2 means that this area is not utilizing the improved practices that are definitely light years ahead of 20 years ago.


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## creekcrawler

Got a bud on Roaming Shores and he's managing the lake there.
There is no easy solution, they are slowly filling in there too from farm runoff. One lady who has had a house there for over twenty years can't get a boat to her dock now. EPA won't let them dredge like they used to either.
One has to realize that this will happen to all man-made lakes eventually - they silt in and get shallower. Eventually, they will all turn to marsh/swampland, some quicker than others.


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> This is starting to border on ridiculous...Sanitarian2, I seriously over estimated your objectivity.
> 
> To declare that the hydromodification of the watershed is soley the management of agriclutural activities is disingenious at best. You don't really believe that catch basins are only found at the end of manure lagoons, do you? How can you imply that soil conservation practices by farmers isn't light years ahead of where we were 20 years ago? Are farmers responsible for 100, or even 50 year weather events? Is it possible that all the road frontage farmers were forced to sell a few years back just to make ends meet has accelerated the drainage through impervious surfacing? You talk about animal densities, how about HUMAN densities? Seen any increases in that lately around the lake?
> 
> Guys, there's comparable negligence here. If elected officials are turning a blind eye towards serial violators, then our course of action couldn't be clearer...or, easier. Vote out the folks that don't represent your issues and concerns.
> 
> I'll say it again. 7 million of OUR dollars to poison the lake is not a solution. It all runs down hill. Start at the inlets, and work it backwards. For that kinda money, this non-point source problem should be easy to put your finger on. If alum will knock down the phosphorous in the lake, why wouldn't it knock it out where it comes into the lake?


You can ignore the facts all you want, it's not goiing to change them. Army Core, ODA, ODH, OEPA, USEPA, all have noted that Agriculture is responsible for approximently 87% of the runoff into the lake. Nobody has EVER said it was ONLY farm related. 

BAT Agricultural practices are very limited in the GrandLake Watershed when compared to Indian Lake, Loramie. There is considerable less human waste entering the lake now than 20 years ago, I'm talking in the 75% reduction range, easily. You can take every single POINT source out of the lake and the benefit would not even be noticed at the lake proper.(That's not to say they don't need to be addressed, they certainly do)

I don't like the alum idea either, it's of no long term value and will most likely backfire. I suppose I might come off as a bit bitter, been a voice yelling into the wilderness for a decade and none would listen, few cared. Well they care now, don't they, they care now.


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## Lynxis

Wiper, if it was a human population issue, Indian Lake would be about 100x worse off.


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## Saws21

I talked to a farmer today from mercer county that said the phosphorus levels were higher 30yrs ago then they are today! B.S.!!!!!! There is no way that can be true. 
The same guy told me that he thinks a big portion of the problem is the goose population on GLSM... Stating about the goose poop in the water......
I told him hows that when geese don't deficate while they are swimming in the water. Sure they do on the fields and etc. 
So I asked him, how many geese do you think are at GLSM right now? He said," I bet close to 100,000!!!!!!!!!
As a waterfowl hunter I'd love to see that, but on a realistic note, there isn't 4,000 geese over there.


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## Sanitarian2

Saws21 said:


> I talked to a farmer today from mercer county that said the phosphorus levels were higher 30yrs ago then they are today! B.S.!!!!!! There is no way that can be true.
> The same guy told me that he thinks a big portion of the problem is the goose population on GLSM... Stating about the goose poop in the water......
> I told him hows that when geese don't deficate while they are swimming in the water. Sure they do on the fields and etc.
> So I asked him, how many geese do you think are at GLSM right now? He said," I bet close to 100,000!!!!!!!!!
> As a waterfowl hunter I'd love to see that, but on a realistic note, there isn't 4,000 geese over there.



Others like to blame the spillway, it's a common deflection target. "u see's we usted to take water off the bottom of the lake, the polluted stuff and that, and send it down the Wabash and now we's just draws it off the top"

" So our theory is that the Ag pollution was pushed downstream onto your neighbors and that was Ok?"

"yep, now we has to keep it all in the lake and that"

The waterfowl is dying now too so maybe the lake will be all cleaned up by next spring.


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## Sanitarian2

From Army Core of Engineers:

Nutrient loading at GrandLake St.Marys


- Geese 0.6%

-Setpic tanks 1.8%
- Package Plants 2.2%
- Rainfall 2.3%
- Urban Runoff 3.3%
- Muncipalities 4.3%
- Animal Concentrations 22.6%
- Crop land/runoff 62.9%


Any additional questions?


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## Saws21

case and point right there people
thanks sans2


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## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2 said:


> Any additional questions?


Yes..tons...just don't have time right now.

Let's hit a couple easy ones. In what year did the core make their assessment? Do you have a link to the full study?

You don't really expect anyone with a brain to believe those percentages reflect source contribution on an annual basis?


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## eatwhatyoukeep

This is educational, please keep the info coming.


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> Yes..tons...just don't have time right now.
> 
> Let's hit a couple easy ones. In what year did the core make their assessment? Do you have a link to the full study?
> 
> You don't really expect anyone with a brain to believe those percentages reflect source contribution on an annual basis?




http://www.lakeimprovement.com/pollution-issues-and-solutions-grand-lake-st-marys

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2010/jul...rys-toxic-due-runoff-neighboring-f-ar-130918/

http://www.mercercountyohio.org/commissioners/Wildlife_QA.pdf

Yeah, I thought the non-ag portion of the loading was a bit high, especially the geese but .........................
Every watershed is different, watershed cordinators in some areas have lakes where 95% of the loading\pollution is from human sources and Ag is virtually non-existent. Idiot OEPA that allows 500 homes on 500 acres with leaching tile fields or aeration units with discharge and they wonder why the river is a dung heap.


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## Saws21

If you think those numbers are high, I think they are higher now, The study was done in 1981---- I'm sure livestock numbers have went up in Mercer County drastically since 1981.

I don't believe that the numbers would fluctuate that much from year to year.


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## Wiper Swiper

Still pushed for time, but I'll keep chipping.

You couldn't link the report, however buried in what you did link, I found what I was looking for.

Those "revealing" nutrient loading percentages from the Army Core were done in 1981...29 years ago.

Interesting...but, not exactly relevant.


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## Wiper Swiper

Saws21 said:


> If you think those numbers are high, I think they are higher now, The study was done in 1981---- I'm sure livestock numbers have went up in Mercer County drastically since 1981.
> 
> I don't believe that the numbers would fluctuate that much from year to year.


Ha!...I can't even get that up quickly.

The devil's in the details...more later.


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## Wiper Swiper

Saws21 said:


> I don't believe that the numbers would fluctuate that much from year to year.


You're wrong about that...I'm sure they vary dramatically.


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## puterdude

I ,like many I am sure, had no idea of the severity of the matter. Those pics makes me thankful we aren't having to deal with that locally right now.I hope they get a fix and soon for those that love the lake.Sad situation for sure.


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## Saws21

I just don't see how the numbers would vary so much from year to year, Its not like there are that many people moving to the lake to make human waste go up... Most of the existing livestock farms in the area are probably always to the max with animals so I don't know how the animal waste runoff could go up dramatically.

I bet thou, the percentages present day are alot different than they were in 1981.

Maybe someone else could shed the light, I'm not saying I'm right, but just don't understand how it would vary so much year to year..... Same amount of animals=same amount of manure=same amount of runoff( cause its gonna rain or melt sometime)


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## Wiper Swiper

puterdude said:


> I ,like many I am sure, had no idea of the severity of the matter.


Dick, I hope nothing I wrote would cause you to question the severity of the matter. The one point that I absolutely, totally agree with San2 on is how serious this is. In fact, there's a part of me that believes the lake is beyond help and will simply be a money pit for tax payers from here foward.

With that in mind, I guess there is no real debate here. I'm not denying that nutrient enrichment from ag activities is the problem. My point is that there's comparable negligence not reflected in those lopsided percentages. Impervious surfacing accelerates the drainage. Untimely, 50 year weather events accelerate the drainage. Poor storm detention engineering accelerates the drainage. None of which are the responsibility of farmers.

When it comes down to it, GLSM was never designed to be the recreation "hot spot" it has become. It was a swamp before we flooded it, and ma nature, true to her...errr...nature, is slowly making it a swamp again.

When it comes down to chosing between feeding a population, or having a nice place to jet ski and catch crappies, I must in all good conscience, side with agriculture. I wish I was reading more about striking a balance, but I'm not. What I'm reading is that the "solution" is shutting down the CAFO's. That makes no sense, and has about a zero chance of becoming a reality.

Peace.


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> You're wrong about that...I'm sure they vary dramatically.




You'r right, they will vary somewhat from year to year and considering that the animal units have more than doubled in the last two decades and the South Side has been sewered since then, the porportions will have swung even farther towards animal nutrient contamination.

I get the impression that you have not driven the watershed for a long, long time. That you have not grabbed samples from feedlot runoff, that you haven't traced back milkhouse waste to it's source. That you have not been involved in attempts to increase filter strips in the watershed.


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## killingtime

man it is sickening to here what is going on up at st. marys right now. when i moved away from that area in the year 2000 we had a banner year on the big crappie. its amazing what can happen in 10 years. ever since i moved my friends from that area kept telling me the lake was going down hill fast and i guess they were right. puterdude as you know from my posts i fish buckeye lake now because i live in perry county but i grew up at st. marys lake at my parents cabin they had there and i had no idea of how bad the problem was until about 3 years ago. out of all the posts on this thread redcanoe59 has hit the nail on the head on what kind of people live in this area. these people do care alot about what happens to the lake but these people make there living off that land as there generations of family have for years. i am not wanting to get into a big debate here about % and numbers of whats going on in the lake i just want people to know this is a very hard working community and there are alot of people that live there that care about the lake. if you drive around the lake it seemed like every house had a boat sitting in the driveway in which they used on st. marys lake. i dont think they wanted this to happen either. i almost bought my parents cabin when they sold it just so i could live in that community but i decided to go southeast in the country instead. i really hope this can get fixed sometime down the road because it is a one of a kind place.


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## GETTIN' THERE

This has been one of the best threads I have seen on this website. Thank you Wiper Swiper, Saws 21, and Sanitarian2 for all the good info. Great, emotional, civil debate on a very important subject.

Just an observation from a near 50 year old average outdoorsman. GLSM is obviously Ohio's largest inland lake (although a shallow mud hole). This has
led to it becoming a major recreation destination. I can remember
the day (early 70's) when St. Mary's, Indian, and Loramie were the only lakes
in western Ohio. No CJB, no CC, no East Fork, no Alum. Can you imagine how bad things would be if these lakes were never built? Anyhow, I have seen the area around GLSM go from a few fishing huts, cabins, trailers to million dollar or at least 100's thousand dollar vacation homes built all the way around it. Ad to that U.S. population growth (boat ownership too) and farming practices to feed that growth and we come to the problem at hand. Unfortunately I agree with Wiper Swiper in the fear that "there's a part of me that believes the lake is beyond help and will simply be a money pit for tax payers from here forward" Also, unfortunately this is happening at a time
when the state can least afford it. The current plan to chemically treat the lake is "as stated a band aid". Stricter enforcement of farm run off will help
but without curbs and control of human habitation around the lake will not solve the problem. An all out effort of everything combined might do it, but how many who have invested so much $$ around that lake will leave. 

Of course if things continue the way they are, the latter may not be a problem.


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## killingtime

there is another article about st marys in the dayton daily news. go to www.daytondailynews.com. i dont know how to copy and post it.


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## zaraspook

The discussion or debate going on in this thread is much appreciated. We're getting a mix of opinion, anecdotal evidence, hard data, and scientific info to educate all. 

To those in the camp to fill in the lake, I wish you actually witnessed GLSM this spring. You'd be convinced the lake can survive and thrive. As a property owner on the lake, all spring the water clarity was incredible. It was the hot topic of fishermen with 30-40 years dunking lures on the lake. No one could recall what we saw - the ability to see 3-4 feet down into the lake! The EPA lifted the previous year's lake warnings as toxin testing showed levels lake wide with toxins almost non-existent. 

Some credited the great clarity to the long iced-over condition during the winter, but to be certain during the late winter and spring we saw no heavy rains to produce runoff. I guess we were lulled into a false sense of confidence......no way to know this was the calm before the storm. Late May and the entire month of June brought rain almost everyday. The lake began to muddy from swollen creeks from the watershed which is primarily from the south. Water clarity deteriorated quickly over a 3-4 week period and the green hue to the water advanced. 

Then we were sucker-punched! Still feeling euphoria of great water clarity just a few weeks earlier and enjoying an excellent spring of fishing, the disgusting new algae bloom was a total shock and devastating to residents and business owners.

The lake needs the flow from the southern creeks/watershed to sustain water levels. It doesn't need the phosphates and nitrates that come with the flow. This isn't rocket-science, the source of nutrients which enable algae/toxins/bacteria is very clear. The solution is complicated. How do we help agriculture in the watershed prevent contamination of water that feeds GLSM?

Just treating symptoms in the lake makes no sense. Alum treatments, Airy-gators, equipment to collect algae from the surface do not stop the root cause. Similar to the blown oil rig in the gulf, collecting oil from the surface isn't a solution. The blown well has to be plugged. To solve this problem we need to plug the well, stop the flow of phosphates and nitrates.


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## GETTIN' THERE

I believe this is the article Killingtime mentioned

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...e-st-marys-dying-from-toxic-algae-794991.html


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## killingtime

thanks for posting it.


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## Sanitarian2

Those that are really interested in the causes and even more importantly, the posible cures should read the 57 page Terra-Tech report, out July 9, 2010,as commissioned by OEPA. THIS LAKE CAN BE SAVED, it will take time, effort and money but she can be made whole.

Simple farm management techniques such as conservation tillage, NMP's, Cattle exclusion from streams, Precison Feeding, Cover Crop use, grass swales, filter strips, Repairing Riparian buffers can decrease nutrient(P) loading by 90%(Money is available for these practices if they jump on board early)

That ten fold reduction in P(Nutrients in general) will allow existing P to wash out of the lake in 7-30 years(Wide range I know), older, higher level P sediments will be covered over with newer, low P sediments to reduce wave re-introduction of P in the water column.

If the Alum\Peroxide test plots show it's viability it can be used to treat the entire lake(Costs of 12.5 Million) which should create immediate results. It's time to stop begging, start asking and then force compliance before the Federal Government steps into the equation. They have been paying attention and believe you me, we had better get it done before they start forcing solutions on us at the local level.


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## Saws21

Like Dad always says," We can do it the easy way or the hard way, its up to you"

better get moving before the feds jump in


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## fishintechnician

San2 I agree that the tetra tech report is interesting, but you need to look at some of the other reports that they have put out. In another report they flat out admit that the alum will kill all aquatic species that it comes in contact with. Now imagine all those dead fish floating in the lake. That in it's self would be a huge job to clean/repopulate the lake. Not to mention that there will be contamination of the outflow water to other streams/rivers in the area doing untold damge to the area.

Our company was there yesterday doing water collection and data sampling, the lake is a huge mess. When we gto out there it was somewhat over cast and the bloom seemed mild (though still widly spread). As the sun came out and it started to warm you could literally see the algae coming to the top. 

There are some weird things about algae that you guys may not know. When it dies it leaves spores (not the tech name) on it's cells that lie dormant until the conditions are right for that strain to bloom. When time is right you get a massive bloom of algae. Thats is why not all will bloom at once. So if they dump they algum in the lake it will die (along with everything else) but will not go away and once the p and n are back so will the algae and your problem.

Tetra- tech seems to be about dump chemicals in and being doen with it. Our companys aproach is much different than that, though addmitedly will take longer but will work better and have a great outcome for the lake and the residents. I can't go into exact detail about what we are tryign to do but I will give you the just of it. We want to promote growth of a naturally occuring algae in the lake. The species that we want to grow will eat the cyano bac and also filter the water removing all the toxins and the impurities improving water quality all around. It will also produce mass amounts of oxygen and food source for soem smaller (bait) fish which will help the fishing. Now once this strain is established we will harvest the algae from the lake, extract the water from it and turn it into bio fuels which would then be available for all types of energy production for the residents. We have purchased a house up there and we are commited to helping improve this great waterway for all to enjoy for years to come.


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## Saws21

while your companies plan sounds good, it still doesn't fix the core problem, agricultural Phosphorus runoff. 
I just hope if you can get the "job" you can keep your algae alive and thriving otherwise we will have dissolved oxygen readings similar to what we have every year, correct?


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## JamesT

could someone please explain the connection bw 99 cent chicken nuggets and GLSM?


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## killingtime

good to here something is in the works. are you going to treat the whole lake at once or just certain areas at a time. if you cant give any more details i understand.


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## zaraspook

JamesT said:


> could someone please explain the connection bw 99 cent chicken nuggets and GLSM?


JamesT.....some of the livestock/animal operations in the GLSM watershed are larger chicken operations. The suggestion is if the public didn't demand cheap meat (like 99 cent chicken nuggets), there wouldn't be a market for the meat produced by chicken operations. The lake, people and businesses around the lake are paying the price/cost for cheap meat sources.


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## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2 said:


> You'r right, they will vary somewhat from year to year and considering that the animal units have more than doubled in the last two decades and the South Side has been sewered since then, the porportions will have swung even farther towards animal nutrient contamination.
> 
> I get the impression that you have not driven the watershed for a long, long time. That you have not grabbed samples from feedlot runoff, that you haven't traced back milkhouse waste to it's source. That you have not been involved in attempts to increase filter strips in the watershed.


So...an elitist attitude is how you're moving forward?

I'm not even sure you understand the AC's report. IF it reflects annual contribution, then the percentages will fluctuate wildly based on annual weather events. If it reflects "blame" for p loads in the lake in 1981, then it's not exactly relevant.

I fished the lake regularly in the 80's and early 90's. I served as a foreman on the construction crew that rebuilt the hatchery in the mid 90's, and became very interested in the hydrology of the shed at that time. Even then, I questioned the development of the South side with no respect to the filters. In the 80's, everyone knew the creeks turned to what was termed "pea soup" late Spring/early Summer...yet, the drainage continued to be accelerated. It had been a while, but I was up about a month ago. My how the houses have popped up since farmers were forced to sell road frontage to make ends meet a decade ago. Saw lotsa for-sale signs. Housing bubble, or fleeing? Spent a couple hours late last night on Google Earth. That golf course North of Carthagena sure looks pretty...with the creeks running through it. The airport at Montezuma looks better maintained. What are the 3 square "ponds" just East of there?

The fact remains, you can't accelerate the drainage and lay every consequence at the feet of farmers. It's fuzzy math.

My biggest problem with you, is that somehow 12 million in alum seems like a good idea. I don't have to live there to know that you're throwing some of MY money straight down a stink hole.

I'll help (even if it's just money) with a good idea. You just haven't presented any yet.


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## Saws21

wiper swiper
The 3 ponds to the East of the Airport in Zuma, I believe are the waste water "ponds" or maybe you saw the dredge spoil site they built there last year as well.
And to the Housing sales, People are sick of the lake being in that shape and are just leaving, plan and simple. People that live in that area will drive an hour or more to fish, when they live withing minutes of GLSM. (Granted I wouldn't fish in GLSM either)

I respectfully still disagree with the thinking that the percentages will vary dramatically from year to year.

We have never had a year without any precipitation so therefore, no matter when the manure is spread, and no matter when the precip, it'll still find its way to the lake, but thats my thinking..

On another note, You helped do the renovation at the Fish Hatchery back in '96 huh?
It was weird this spring how you could see the bottom of the ponds there and you actually see the fish swimming around! It was quite an odd spring there, that is until it started raining all the time, then right back to green water.


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## puterdude

Man oh man you poor people around that lake are between a rock and a hard place,damned if you do damned if you don't.I kind of agree with Wiper on this,it looks like a loss cause and will be a money pit for decades and most likely a total loss sadly.You can't close the area farmers down,they can't raise profitable crops without fertilizers,they can't raise livestock without poop.Just like Buckeye it was swamp and man removed a little bottom and are calling it a lake.I doubt several billions of dollars would make a dent in the problem.I pray Buckeye Lake never faces such a curse but I often wonder just how far behind it actually is.I have lived around Buckeye now for 57 years and have seen it improve drastically due to new build codes,sewage codes,ect but the farmers are still gathered around her.I don't fish buckeye at all after July 1st mostly because boat traffic,but I know once the water reaches 80 degrees the green slime starts sticking to my hull requiring a good scrub once I get home.It's a sad ,sad affair there and I wish there was a quick fix let alone a fix at all even if it takes years,but I am reserved to the fact it could be a loss cause.Hope I am wrong as it's a beautiful lake and is worth saving.Hope somebody comes up with a sensible solution fast.


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## Saws21

The way I see it is the farmers who caused this problem should be fined, that money should go to help the lake and What about this stimulus money the govt is still sitting on.... We the people have to pay it back one way or another, well how bout using some of that to help the Lake as well.... I'm sure a fundraiser of some sorts would raise money to help it as well..... just ideas tho


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## RedCanoe59

zaraspook 
i'm glad to see you've joined in the disscussion i feel nobody has a better grasp on what is going on then you do....you were the first person i thought of when i started seeing reports about the alge bloom.


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## fishintechnician

Killing time- They way we want to "treat the lake" IS actually adding some different organic matter. That is all. Different strains of algae require different types of nutrients/media to grow. Essentially all we are going to do is provide them with the right enviroment to grow.

San2 I do not currently know what your average is for the dissolved oxygen in the lake so I can't answer that question.Although i can tell you that when it is living it will be between 6-20 mg/L depending on the strain. When it dies off, and it will in the winter, it would go down but it should not be a really significant drop maybe 5-10% again depending on what type grows. And again the percentage is kind of anecdotal because we have no idea what type will grow. We want to give it favorable conditions and let a natuarlly occuring strain grow, instead of seeding it with something foreign to the lake. We have also been working very closely with the city of celina waste water treatment facility,division of parks and ODNR to try and meet the needs of all involved. And we are gonna be on that lake for a long time to come. That was what really bugs me about the alum. Dump the chem., get paid and wash your hands of the whole deal (unless it comes back then they can charge us another 12 mil to do it again).

Which brings me to another point, the cyano strain that they found this years has only ever been sampled in south africa, never in the US.Which raises the question of how it got here int he first palce. Kind of irrelevant because some strain would have grown but still intresting none the less.

Wiper I agree lots of for sale signs around the lake. It is sad to see because you can tell just by looking at the area it was once thriving. I hope somethign can be done I just hope that no one jumps to hasty decisions that will hinder things down the road.


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## LEfriend

Fishintechnician

Curious. Does your company have a website? What is the company name? Is there some independent peer review research on there to substantiate what you are wanting to do? Have you demonstrated this effective anywhere else? Also, when you talk about harvesting the algae, curious, how will you harvest it without also removing the beneficial plankton?


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## fishintechnician

LEfriend-The company is algaeventure systems and here is a link to the website 
http://www.algaevs.com/ there are some of the answers on there that you are looking for. We have done this on scale and it has worked very well. And all of our colaborators (outside independent companies) are in agreement with us that this would be a viable solution.

here is a quick video that shows our HDD harvesting algae that we collected [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgBMK6DMheQ"]YouTube- Patent Documents Filed - AVS HARVESTER[/nomedia] after it is collected and dried it is then processesd using supercritical CO2 extraction to remove the oil from the dried flake, in doing so you can use the oil for what ever purpose you need and the flake can be used as a livestock food source.


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## auglaizewader

Can we all agree that Phosphorus is the main problem? 

I was wondering if the algae species are "native" to this lake? Also, I was thinking you meant "harvesting" as the means by which you remove it from the lake. How is that done? The machinery for processing into a useful state is interesting.



Does anyone have access to the ACOE report from 1991? I have tried searching for it, but haven't had any luck.

The tetra-tech is an interesting report. I thought it addressed cleaning the lake quickly AND long-term reduction of P loading. The alum injectors into the streams are interesting to me as a way to help clean up the water, while the BMP (best management practices) are put into action in the watersheds. These are crucial, in my mind.


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## fishintechnician

auglaizewader said:


> Can we all agree that Phosphorus is the main problem?
> 
> I was wondering if the algae species are "native" to this lake? Also, I was thinking you meant "harvesting" as the means by which you remove it from the lake. How is that done? The machinery for processing into a useful state is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have access to the ACOE report from 1991? I have tried searching for it, but haven't had any luck.
> 
> The tetra-tech is an interesting report. I thought it addressed cleaning the lake quickly AND long-term reduction of P loading. The alum injectors into the streams are interesting to me as a way to help clean up the water, while the BMP (best management practices) are put into action in the watersheds. These are crucial, in my mind.


Phosphorus is def the main problem and that will have to be adressed. The way that we actually get the alage from the lake is a boat with a special belt called an RAC (Rapid algae collection) belt. It is motor driven and circulates through the water and the algae sticks to it like a magnet, it then goes through a series of rollers and ringers to get a concentrated soulution that we can run on our HDD. I agree that the tetra tech/alum solution would work, but it WILL kill all of the native species, all of them. Now with the alum injectors this will be an ongoign thing and you would never be able to restock the lake. After so long the alum will turn the water acidic and it will still be a no contact order in place. All of you guys will be living on a highly acidic lake that supports no fish species, and still wouldn't be of any recreational use. I don't really see the tourist draw there either. You go from toxic algae to toxic chemicals I don't see the benefit of that at all.

In my opinion if we get to do what we are hoping to do in coralation with educating the farmers and managment practices this lake is fixable. It is going to take time and it will not be easy but it is doable. And it should not involve ruining a fishery to save a lake. Our way would be benefical to wildlife,tourists and reisdents. It seems as if some involved are being reactionary and wanting a quick fix when you need to be looking at the big picture and what the lake could be if handled right.


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## auglaizewader

i like your company's idea. Will you have more involvement or just algae removal? i guess what I am asking is will your company be putting out a comprehensive solution or are you focusing on this portion of the problem? 

The larger issues still loom ominously: Removal of nutrient loading activities. I wonder if anyone has the authority to force this all the way through. It may end up in court, and take years in the system.


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> So...an elitist attitude is how you're moving forward?
> 
> I'm not even sure you understand the AC's report. IF it reflects annual contribution, then the percentages will fluctuate wildly based on annual weather events. If it reflects "blame" for p loads in the lake in 1981, then it's not exactly relevant.
> 
> I fished the lake regularly in the 80's and early 90's. I served as a foreman on the construction crew that rebuilt the hatchery in the mid 90's, and became very interested in the hydrology of the shed at that time. Even then, I questioned the development of the South side with no respect to the filters. In the 80's, everyone knew the creeks turned to what was termed "pea soup" late Spring/early Summer...yet, the drainage continued to be accelerated. It had been a while, but I was up about a month ago. My how the houses have popped up since farmers were forced to sell road frontage to make ends meet a decade ago. Saw lotsa for-sale signs. Housing bubble, or fleeing? Spent a couple hours late last night on Google Earth. That golf course North of Carthagena sure looks pretty...with the creeks running through it. The airport at Montezuma looks better maintained. What are the 3 square "ponds" just East of there?
> 
> The fact remains, you can't accelerate the drainage and lay every consequence at the feet of farmers. It's fuzzy math.
> 
> My biggest problem with you, is that somehow 12 million in alum seems like a good idea. I don't have to live there to know that you're throwing some of MY money straight down a stink hole.
> 
> I'll help (even if it's just money) with a good idea. You just haven't presented any yet.



I'm really not sure what part of 'There is LESS human waste entering the lake" today than in the 70's or 80's that you don't understand. The South side, Chickasaw and other parts of Mercer Co, have been sewered. Human inflow is not a significant factor TODAY. THOSE HOMES ARE ON SEWER!

Your point regarding channelization is spot on, however it is the Ag community that has pushed to get the water off their fields as rapidly as possible.

In the 70's the lake had more of a "chemical" type odor, fish had to be soaked in vinegar to be eaten(At least by many fisherman) ,as the human and industrial waste was removed we experienced an explosion in fish stock and a noticeable improvement in water quality. While she was never clear by any definition, the lake visability was at least 12-16 inches in the 80's, not pea soup green by any stretch. 

Failing to accept the fact that nutrient loading of the lake is largely caused by Agriculture practices caused this problem, you must have a good amount of German DNA in our stock.


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## zaraspook

RedCanoe59 said:


> zaraspook
> i'm glad to see you've joined in the disscussion i feel nobody has a better grasp on what is going on then you do....you were the first person i thought of when i started seeing reports about the alge bloom.


The GLSM farmers in the watershed had a meeting Monday 7-12. The message delivered is that farmers better recognize they are in the cross-hairs, problem isn't going away, and time to step up voluntarily to improve practices and get off the shi% list. Here's a link to online video of the meeting thru the Celina Daily Standard newspaper www.dailystandard.com/video/index.php?video_id=45&res=240

Discussions like this thread, though I hate all the bad press for the lake, are helpful to keep the pressure on politicians, state agencies, and the groups contributing to the problem. 

By the way, if the lake were drained and re-dug so we could start over, we'd be back in the same position within a decade. As long as the creeks feeding the lake carry high level agricultural phosphorus and nitrates, nothing is fixed. The new lake will degenerate and in a decade or so we'd be right back where we are today.

Hopefully no other Ohio lakes will ever go thru this if we can fight it here, turn it around, be the guinea-pig for the rest of you.


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## fishintechnician

auglaizewader said:


> i like your company's idea. Will you have more involvement or just algae removal? i guess what I am asking is will your company be putting out a comprehensive solution or are you focusing on this portion of the problem?
> 
> The larger issues still loom ominously: Removal of nutrient loading activities. I wonder if anyone has the authority to force this all the way through. It may end up in court, and take years in the system.


I really am not sure on this as I am just one of many engineers working on the project, I know we are haveing several presentations/meetings in the next few weeks and I really have no involvement in what is in them I just get the details after the fact. That being said I'm sure it will be an all around effort to stop this and to also keep it from happening again.


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## dmoe

I drive past GLSM twice a day. Sometimes you can not stand the stench. I remember in the 70s & 80s I would fish almost everyday with my Grandpa flags would grow. Not a chance of that now. There is more that one thing that is wrong with this watershed. In the past 15 years sewers have improved, some farm management has improved(not all). Yet no one is willing to roll up their sleeves until recently. One issue that I don't fell is being addressed is the storm sewers from all of the building in the area. Most people are looking strictly at the homes that are within a mile of the lake, and not the entire watershed. The watershed goes all the way to the entire village of St Henry. When it rains water flows from St Henry down the Coldwater Creek with authority, bringing everything in its way with it. The velocity of the waterflow need to be slowed down utilizing catch basins. St. Henry protected the town by putting two on the west side of town; however, not willing to slow down the flow out of the town. I am not just picking on St Henry, catch basins need to be implimented throughout the watershed and the cost is minimal(less than 12 million). There are multiple areas of land along the tributaries that are not being utilized. I am guilty as well. My home does not have a cistern and the rain water is in the tributary within minutes.


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## Wiper Swiper

dmoe said:


> I drive past GLSM twice a day. Sometimes you can not stand the stench. I remember in the 70s & 80s I would fish almost everyday with my Grandpa flags would grow. Not a chance of that now. There is more that one thing that is wrong with this watershed. In the past 15 years sewers have improved, some farm management has improved(not all). Yet no one is willing to roll up their sleeves until recently. One issue that I don't fell is being addressed is the storm sewers from all of the building in the area. Most people are looking strictly at the homes that are within a mile of the lake, and not the entire watershed. The watershed goes all the way to the entire village of St Henry. When it rains water flows from St Henry down the Coldwater Creek with authority, bringing everything in its way with it. The velocity of the waterflow need to be slowed down utilizing catch basins. St. Henry protected the town by putting two on the west side of town; however, not willing to slow down the flow out of the town. I am not just picking on St Henry, catch basins need to be implimented throughout the watershed and the cost is minimal(less than 12 million). There are multiple areas of land along the tributaries that are not being utilized. I am guilty as well. My home does not have a cistern and the rain water is in the tributary within minutes.


ARE YOU SERIOUS!???

You must have me on your "ignore user" list.


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## dmoe

Sorry I didn't see that post. Are we on the same page?


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## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2 said:


> Your point regarding channelization is spot on, however it is the Ag community that has pushed to get the water off their fields as rapidly as possible.


I'm not really sure what part of impervious surfacing, and the associated acceleration of the drainage you don't understand...but, it's obvious you've got a blind spot.


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## Wiper Swiper

dmoe said:


> Sorry I didn't see that post. Are we on the same page?


Can a fat baby fart?


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> I'm not really sure what part of impervious surfacing, and the associated acceleration of the drainage you don't understand...but, it's obvious you've got a blind spot.



So increasing the amount of water entering a stagnant body of water is bad thing?( The solution to pollution after all is dilution). Unless a few quarts of motor oil spread out over 13000 acres does more damage than eleven million animal units, you might be right. In his post you do of course realize that the "Bringing everything with it" is animal waste, right?

Don't forget the .6% loading caused by the geese, let's concentrate on the least bang for the buck solutions first, that's always good public health policy.


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## zaraspook

fishintechnician said:


> I really am not sure on this as I am just one of many engineers working on the project, I know we are haveing several presentations/meetings in the next few weeks and I really have no involvement in what is in them I just get the details after the fact. That being said I'm sure it will be an all around effort to stop this and to also keep it from happening again.


fishintech........we were talking about your company's algae harvesting process back in March. It was when the Airy-gators were the "news" for GLSM. Did your company win the grant to build a boat carried system for launch at GLSM?


----------



## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2 said:


> So increasing the amount of water entering a stagnant body of water is bad thing?( The solution to pollution after all is dilution). Unless a few quarts of motor oil spread out over 13000 acres does more damage than eleven million animal units, you might be right. In his post you do of course realize that the "Bringing everything with it" is animal waste, right?
> 
> Don't forget the .6% loading caused by the geese, let's concentrate on the least bang for the buck solutions first, that's always good public health policy.


I agree with you. The geese "loading" is about as relevant as cattle standing in the creek.

Stay with me...you're close to connecting the dots. If you'd stick to manure management, I'm not sure we'd have any disagreement...except for that silly alum "solution." But...when you lump row crop farmers, and their application of supplemental fertilize, to animal densities, you mix apples and oranges. Applied phosphorus isn't water soluble. It binds with the soil upon contact. If the phosphorus is to "move," it's got to move with the soil. That's called surface erosion. Field tile transports very little sediment (except at the point of discharge.) Erosion in the shed is exasperated by human accommadating impervious surfacing. The creeks rise faster, with less and less of a weather event. Farmers are light years ahead of where they were 20 years ago with respect to soil conservation.

You tell me...why are we looking at the farmers to try harder to hold the dirt in the fields, when we're the ones doing everything we can to wash it out?


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## rod bender bob

zaraspook said:


> Hopefully no other Ohio lakes will ever go thru this if we can fight it here, turn it around, be the guinea-pig for the rest of you.


Lake Erie did in the 60s and it's headed there again unless we can get the pols heads out of their a$$$$$$$$$$$


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## bgrapala

Wiper Swiper said:


> You tell me...why are we looking at the farmers to try harder to hold the dirt in the fields, when we're the ones doing everything we can to wash it out?


And back to the .99 chicken nuggets again...I'm sure most of you knew that a McDonald's chicken mcnugget is made up of 56% corn?!?


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## zaraspook

auglaizewader said:


> i like your company's idea. Will you have more involvement or just algae removal? i guess what I am asking is will your company be putting out a comprehensive solution or are you focusing on this portion of the problem?
> 
> The larger issues still loom ominously: Removal of nutrient loading activities. I wonder if anyone has the authority to force this all the way through. It may end up in court, and take years in the system.


Now you're asking the most critical questions..........how do we get anything actually moving? Who or what at the state level needs to pick up the ball and run? Who at the federal level? How does the discussion change from words to commitment and action? And the real question...............where does the $ come from? I read the tetra tec plan, but didn't see a total price tag.................did I miss something?


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## zaraspook

bgrapala said:


> And back to the .99 chicken nuggets again...I'm sure most of you knew that a McDonald's chicken mcnugget is made up of 56% corn?!?


Whether those chicken nuggets are made from poultry or corn, we have both in the GLSM watershed. 56% is probably the same % of acreage planted in corn. Maybe we'd be better off to convince McD's to switch from chicken and corn to a recipe of alpaca and peanuts (neither of those in the watershed).


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## Sanitarian2

Wiper Swiper said:


> I agree with you. The geese "loading" is about as relevant as cattle standing in the creek.
> 
> Stay with me...you're close to connecting the dots. If you'd stick to manure management, I'm not sure we'd have any disagreement...except for that silly alum "solution." But...when you lump row crop farmers, and there application of supplemental fertilize, to animal densities, you mix apples and oranges. Applied phosphorus isn't water soluble. It binds with the soil upon contact. If the phosphorus is to "move," it's got to move with the soil. That's called surface erosion. Field tile transports very little sediment (except at the point of discharge.) Erosion in the shed is exasperated by human accommadating impervious surfacing. The creeks rise faster, with less and less of a weather event. Farmers are light years ahead of where they were 20 years ago with respect to soil conservation.
> 
> You tell me...why are we looking at the farmers to try harder to hold the dirt in the fields, when we're the ones doing everything we can to wash it out?


The key point is soil washing off the fields, it really doesn't matter how fast the receiving stream is flowing, other than how far the sediment will travel in a single rain event. With the proper use of thirty foot grass buffers between the field and the stream you could push virtually any flow through the creek without adding P load to the lake.(So long as you don't overflow the banks anyway) Erosion of the stream bank is certainly not wanted but it's minimal compared to both sheet erosion and tile carried sediments. The County engineers love to straighten ditches and speed the water along, the fight is constant.


----------



## dmoe

Sanitarian2 said:


> So increasing the amount of water entering a stagnant body of water is bad thing?( The solution to pollution after all is dilution). Unless a few quarts of motor oil spread out over 13000 acres does more damage than eleven million animal units, you might be right. In his post you do of course realize that the "Bringing everything with it" is animal waste, right?
> 
> Don't forget the .6% loading caused by the geese, let's concentrate on the least bang for the buck solutions first, that's always good public health policy.


Sanitarian2,

I don't disagree with you regarding the farm runoff. That is another issue that must be handled; however, it is not 100% of all farmers in the watershed. Some farmers do very well at conservation and others need proper guidance(to be politically correct). Fertilizer application is utilizing GPS in order to not over fertilize.
The whole idea of multiple catch basin (I may not be using the proper name for this) is the allow the sediments to settle before they reach the lake. The basis/sediment traps must be cleaned out regularly. Then you will have cleaner water entering the lake for your "solution to polution after all is dilution".

FYI: A percentage of the poulty manure is trucked out of the watershed.


----------



## Lynxis

"solution to polution after all is dilution".


Well, there must be a LOT of pollution coming in to poison 14 thousand acres of water.


----------



## Sanitarian2

dmoe said:


> Sanitarian2,
> 
> I don't disagree with you regarding the farm runoff. That is another issue that must be handled; however, it is not 100% of all farmers in the watershed. Some farmers do very well at conservation and others need proper guidance(to be politically correct). Fertilizer application is utilizing GPS in order to not over fertilize.
> The whole idea of multiple catch basin (I may not be using the proper name for this) is the allow the sediments to settle before they reach the lake. The basis/sediment traps must be cleaned out regularly. Then you will have cleaner water entering the lake for your "solution to polution after all is dilution".
> 
> FYI: A percentage of the poulty manure is trucked out of the watershed.



You're spot on, there are some very good farmers in the watershed and it's not fair to paint all with such a broad brush.


----------



## puterdude

The dispatch has another article on this today.The Governor has asked the federal EPA for help.God help us all from this point on.


----------



## Ripley

i would like to ask a question .... i understand to an extent on whats happening and the discussion here.... so excuse me if this is a stupid question... but i really don't know and i'm trying to understand...

if the lake is stagnant ... or pretty much so.... and it's not so deep... with all the crap going into it is whats causing all the algea... between the algea and sediment... after long awhile (many years) becomeing a swamp ... so on and so on...am i correct in this thinking.... i'm trying to relate it to 4 different ponds i know and what has been happening to them over the last 30 - 40 years...

also ... will the salinity of the lake rise as this goes on?

if this has already been asked ... i'm sorry but i've missed it if it has...


----------



## Sanitarian2

Ripley said:


> i would like to ask a question .... i understand to an extent on whats happening and the discussion here.... so excuse me if this is a stupid question... but i really don't know and i'm trying to understand...
> 
> if the lake is stagnant ... or pretty much so.... and it's not so deep... with all the crap going into it is whats causing all the algea... between the algea and sediment... after long awhile (many years) becomeing a swamp ... so on and so on...am i correct in this thinking.... i'm trying to relate it to 4 different ponds i know and what has been happening to them over the last 30 - 40 years...
> 
> also ... will the salinity of the lake rise as this goes on?
> 
> if this has already been asked ... i'm sorry but i've missed it if it has...



You are correct, every lake starts to fill in from the minute it is constructed and if left alone will eventually become a swamp and then dry land. Vegetation, silt, decaying organic matter all contribute to the soup. This is a process that would normally be expected to take many thousands of years if left to mother nature.

Higher levels of salinity tends to restrict cynobacteria and favors diatoms and simple green algae but I'm not sure if we can expect significant increases in sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, carbonate, silicate, and halide concentrations due to "pollution"

Grand Lake St. Mary's is a wake up call to Ohio, we have abused our waterways, streams and lakes for far too long and mother nature is here to collect the bill. I predict that today is just the beginning, the tip of the iceberg. You will see this condition spread to other lakes in the state, this will no longer be an isolated situation.


----------



## Trippin Dipsys

I live in Northeast Ohio and I have been following this story for a while now. Seems to me that GLSM is the canary right now of Ohio's aquatic ecology. I hope you all shout loud enough that it becomes national news. This is just the beginning of the result of much neglect. It seems to me in the mid 90's to now sportsman have had very little backing politically. I fish in Lake Erie near Cleveland and we have algae blooms as well. Worst I have seen in my 25+ years on the lake. Something has changed in Northwest Ohio and Ontario and I would have to assume it is farming practices. I don't blame the farmers, I know they struggle. I do think we need some sort of legislation here. Sad to hear about your lake and as I said before, I hope you guys shout loud enough and the buck stops here.


----------



## auglaizewader

puterdude said:


> The dispatch has another article on this today.The Governor has asked the federal EPA for help.God help us all from this point on.


So, I see you've dealt with the Federal EPA.


----------



## fishwhacker

Grand Lake has always had its problem with runoff. It is easier for the farmers in the are to pay thousands of dollars in fines if they get caught than paying 100s of thousands of dollars to dispose of wastes properly. That being said a lot of the farmers around the area are doing there part putting in filter strips and allowing space between the fields and creeks that run through them. The fishing is still great in the spring and up to about june. I had a real great season bluegill fishing there this year. I ate them and it did nothing to me but make my belly full of delicious bluegill fillets.


----------



## Lynxis

Dont count on a repeat of the good fishing next year.

The LIA guys are ready to nuke the lake because of the number of fish that have died already this year.


----------



## LEfriend

fishintechnician said:


> LEfriend-The company is algaeventure systems and here is a link to the website
> http://www.algaevs.com/ there are some of the answers on there that you are looking for. We have done this on scale and it has worked very well. And all of our colaborators (outside independent companies) are in agreement with us that this would be a viable solution.
> 
> here is a quick video that shows our HDD harvesting algae that we collected YouTube- Patent Documents Filed - AVS HARVESTER after it is collected and dried it is then processesd using supercritical CO2 extraction to remove the oil from the dried flake, in doing so you can use the oil for what ever purpose you need and the flake can be used as a livestock food source.


I took a look at the website. Looks like your news release says one separator can process roughly 100 gallons per hour. That computes to 3258 hours to do one acre foot of water..which would be 135 days running 24 hours per day. There are I think in round numbers 16,000 acres of lake, depth 7 feet. (ok avg depth is less...say 4 foot) That is still 135 days times 16000 acres times 4' average equals a whole lot of days. At that rate how would you scale up to make a dent? That would be a whole bunch of separators!


----------



## fishintechnician

LEfriend said:


> I took a look at the website. Looks like your news release says one separator can process roughly 100 gallons per hour. That computes to 3258 hours to do one acre foot of water..which would be 135 days running 24 hours per day. There are I think in round numbers 16,000 acres of lake, depth 7 feet. (ok avg depth is less...say 4 foot) That is still 135 days times 16000 acres times 4' average equals a whole lot of days. At that rate how would you scale up to make a dent? That would be a whole bunch of separators!


First our material for collection will concentrate the algae. Running 10 gal of concentrate would be like running 100 gal of dilute. We also are working on a model that will process 500 gal an hour. That is all irrelevant if we get the go ahead to stimulat naturally occuring beneficial algae to bloom. In doing so it will eat the cyano and it's toxins, it will also oxygenate the water, clarify the water, and provide food for small bait fish which is then food for the larger fish that we all like to catch. It would really benefit the fisheryand th ecomunitys around it. Then we want to have several floating boat houses stationed around the lake with our equipment in them running 24/7 (it is fully automated). The algae would then be harvested and dried,all the extra water would be returned to the lake and the flakes would be processed into oil for power/fuel use. The excess flake (after oil extraction) can be used as suplemental feed stock.

We are also very comited to this project. We just bought a house on west bank rd that will be offices/lab/bunk house for use to use while we work on 
the project instead of driving to and from Marysville everyday. We are looking at buying two new larger boats (30+ ft) and modifiing them to fit our needs. We are looking forward to help turn this lake around to the way it used to be or better.



zaraspook said:


> Now you're asking the most critical questions..........how do we get anything actually moving? Who or what at the state level needs to pick up the ball and run? Who at the federal level? How does the discussion change from words to commitment and action? And the real question...............where does the $ come from? I read the tetra tec plan, but didn't see a total price tag.................did I miss something?


We had meetings confrences with the head of ODNR, Fed EPA, and Division of parks today, I won't know how it went until Monday as I'm off until then. But we are working on it. The numbers I have heard for Tetra-tec is 500,000 for testing the alum and 12 mill to treat the whole lake.



zaraspook said:


> fishintech........we were talking about your company's algae harvesting process back in March. It was when the Airy-gators were the "news" for GLSM. Did your company win the grant to build a boat carried system for launch at GLSM?


We got part of the grant but not all of it, we funded the rest independentally.
We have a boat and a few other ideas that we are working on to see what will best work. Right now we are in the r&d/planning stage but are very close to being ready to go with a full scale "attack" on the alage


----------



## Ripley

Isn't this cynobacteria causing a part of the problem?

Maybe I'm looking at this in the wrong way because I'm not exactly sure what I understand....and I'm sorry if I don't have my thinking straight... 

fish are dying... more everyday because of the algae &#8230;. no or low oxygen... and chemicals in the silt being washed into the lake and shallowing up the lake... along with low water flow... 

alum dumped into the lake only a temporary fix and kills everything it comes in contact with... 

OK here comes the part you can all tell me I'm crazy &#8230;. and whatever.... I'm ready for it...

I'm thinking on the order of a swimming pool.... to a certain extent.... please bear with me and think just outside of the guidelines.... because I'm sort of winging it here... but I guess I'm trying to help somehow...

if the lake is treated with salt.... (fish can live in a lake with a higher salinity I think it's like 3.0 w/v... can't remember for sure) and lets say chlorine (.2 m/l which maybe like .7m/gallon) would kill some fish but not all &#8230; this could possibly kill the slime in the lake....and not lose everything...

now as winter is coming and crops aren't growing &#8230;. can the lake be dredged and the silt taken by truck and dumped back on the farmers fields.... it should be great for growing things &#8230;. shouldn't it?

As far as settling the silt before it comes back to the lake.... the major tributaries that flow into the lake... go to several of the low spots back upstream as far back as you would want to go and build blockages.... not dams.... just walls of big stones.... like they use for rip rap around the dams... and maybe fallen trees.... this would slow the incoming water down... maybe it would create some flooding in the lower areas.... but it would create more of a natural setting and water would rise and flow over and around these blockers.... causing the silt to settle.... creating a swampy holding area.... which in turn would create more of a place for wildlife.... 

then every so many years the silt can be recycled out of the swampy area's and dumped back on the farmers fields &#8230;. this may save them money from having to fertilize so much.... and in turn may bring the cost of chicken mcnuggets down &#8230;. because some of the algae that is growing on the new swampy area/holding tanks can be recycled by the algae venture systems company....turning it into food for the chickens...

again I'm just tossing out something that rattled through my brain and maybe someone can kind of understand and make better sense of it....or even if it maybe a good idea.... just a thought and maybe help somehow.... cause I really don't want this to happen again....ANYWHERE!

OK now that I've gotten this whacked idea outta my head.... you can all tell me it's crazy...


----------



## Sanitarian2

Trippin Dipsys said:


> I live in Northeast Ohio and I have been following this story for a while now. Seems to me that GLSM is the canary right now of Ohio's aquatic ecology. I hope you all shout loud enough that it becomes national news. This is just the beginning of the result of much neglect. It seems to me in the mid 90's to now sportsman have had very little backing politically. I fish in Lake Erie near Cleveland and we have algae blooms as well. Worst I have seen in my 25+ years on the lake. Something has changed in Northwest Ohio and Ontario and I would have to assume it is farming practices. I don't blame the farmers, I know they struggle. I do think we need some sort of legislation here. Sad to hear about your lake and as I said before, I hope you guys shout loud enough and the buck stops here.


Your canary statement is so right, so right.


----------



## socdad

> The fishing is still great in the spring and up to about june. I had a real great season bluegill fishing there this year. I ate them and it did nothing to me but make my belly full of delicious bluegill fillets.


To each their own, but I wouldn't put my boat in that water let alone eat a fish from it! 

http://www.whiotv.com/news/24291237/detail.html 

I would hope most of us do not need the EPA to tell us to stay away from water that looks like pea soup and smells like pig s..t.


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## Sanitarian2

Interesting change of opinion on the consumption of fish, up until just days ago the prevailing theory was that the flesh was safe as the experts did not believe that the toxins accumulated there. Entrails were considered to be a hazard but not the actual flesh, I wonder who made that call at the last minute.

I'm really surprised that ODNR hasn't blocked access to the lake, there are plently of other Nutrient enriched lakes,private ponds in the state. While they may not have the same nutrient density, I would hate to see this spread throughout the state.

:C


----------



## zaraspook

fishintechnician said:


> First our material for collection will concentrate the algae. Running 10 gal of concentrate would be like running 100 gal of dilute. We also are working on a model that will process 500 gal an hour. That is all irrelevant if we get the go ahead to stimulat naturally occuring beneficial algae to bloom. In doing so it will eat the cyano and it's toxins, it will also oxygenate the water, clarify the water, and provide food for small bait...........
> We got part of the grant but not all of it, we funded the rest independentally.
> We have a boat and a few other ideas that we are working on to see what will best work. Right now we are in the r&d/planning stage but are very close to being ready to go with a full scale "attack" on the alage


Sounds like you guys are getting your shot. Wish you nothing but success and hope to see data/reports along the way.


----------



## fishintechnician

zaraspook said:


> Sounds like you guys are getting your shot. Wish you nothing but success and hope to see data/reports along the way.


Thanks I really think we can help, I hate to see such a great lake go to waste. I will keep everyone updated as I find out new things


----------



## GETTIN' THERE

Do Not Boat, Swim, Or Eat The Fish On Grand Lake

http://www.whiotv.com/news/24291237/detail.html


Not that anyone is, but it is official now!


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## Sanitarian2

fishintechnician said:


> Thanks I really think we can help, I hate to see such a great lake go to waste. I will keep everyone updated as I find out new things


Grand Lake is going to be a wonderful experiment, hopefully the information gathered will not only prove helpful in this situation but will provide a basis for treatment of other lakes that experience similiar algal events. Good Luck.


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## fishintechnician

Thanks we are gathering as much data as possible and your right it will be the basis for furtherstudies/treatments on other lakes


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## socdad

I do not want to sound like a defeatist but as long as Agra runoff (fertilizers & animal waste) are flowing into the lake a clean up is a waste of time and money. I do not care how well you clean / filter / aerate pig **** it is still pig ****! 

Farmers must follow EPA runoff regulations or the fines MUST much be more than the treatment cost. I dont mean to dump on the family farm, allow some type of tax credit for initial cost or just fill in the lake and be done with it  

The clean up of Lake Erie wasnt quick or cheap (I watched the Fire Dept try to put out the fire on the Cuyahoga River in the early 70s.) but local businesses that were dumping industrial waste into the river stopped dumping, faced massive fines or were put out of business. 

Anyone fish Lake Erie lately?


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## zaraspook

Ooops. Guess I didn't read the advisory about no boating on GLSM. My observations......surface scum/algae concentrations were not evident on the main lake, at least not in my 3 hours on the lake last Friday evening and another hour and 1/2 Saturday morning. The prior weekend you'd go through large patches of scum 50 yards long and churn up a super green wake from your motor. The lake was timid, light winds, very little wave action. Don't get me wrong, you could find floating algae scum in the channels but more area without scum than with it. My experience lately is wind from north mean south side gets the scum - wind from south pushes the scum to north side and north channels. Water temp was 86-87 on main lake and 90 in my channel on the south. Most of my lake time was buzzing around the center and south part of lake from Harmons to Windy Point.

Saturday AM I tried to find an Airy-gator, but failed. I wanted to visually compare water in an Airy-gator area to the rest of the lake. Anyone with knowledge where I can see an Airy-gator in action? Saturday AM water temps were down 3-4 degrees from the evening before.

For those who might be curious about fish kills, I saw zero floating fish in 3 hours Friday. Witnessed one floating fish Saturday AM. From 100 yards away the fish's side was flashing in the water almost like aluminum foil. Unfortunately, it was one of those walleyes that don't exist in GLSM. I did the best I could to measure it on top the water but the 2 pics don't do it justice. My landing net handle is 24 inches long.....this fish was at least 4-5 inches longer than that. Though the walleye's didn't flourish in our lake, somehow they managed to grow and hang around a long time. I'd bet the fish was 5 or more pounds. It wasn't yet bloated. How might walleyes have done if we'd been better stewards of water quality at GLSM?


----------



## Sanitarian2

Eight and nine pound walleyes are caught each spring, both on the main lake and below the spillway. Nobody has admitted to being able to routinely catch any numbers on the main lake. I don't know if the density is low or if nobody has figured out location and technique yet. A 28-29 inch, healthy walleye will run 7-9 lbs so it was a good fish.

The "New" cyanobacteria seems to have burnt itself out, something that happens after a surge of nutrients and out of control growth. It will continue to release toxins for about three weeks after death. I can't remember exactly which inlets added the gators, down along the South East side near South More shores/Otterbein maybe.

The most recent toxin levels are actually coming from last years cyanobacteria species, not the newer strain. Primarily a hepatoxin that can destroy your liver, a secondary level of toxin that causes simple dermatitis/rashes and a third that affects the nervous system.

Fish kills are NOT FROM THE TOXIN, simply caused by low O2 levels created when the organic matter decomposes, worse at the back of channels. I would expect that, without additional heavy rain event, the lake will just continue on with it's five year plus run of pea green soup color without any new blooms of the "new" cyanobacteria


----------



## zaraspook

Sanitarian2 said:


> Eight and nine pound walleyes are caught each spring, both on the main lake and below the spillway. Nobody has admitted to being able to routinely catch any numbers on the main lake. I don't know if the density is low or if nobody has figured out location and technique yet. A 28-29 inch, healthy walleye will run 7-9 lbs so it was a good fish.
> 
> The "New" cyanobacteria seems to have burnt itself out, something that happens after a surge of nutrients and out of control growth. It will continue to release toxins for about three weeks after death. I can't remember exactly which inlets added the gators, down along the South East side near South More shores/Otterbein maybe.
> 
> The most recent toxin levels are actually coming from last years cyanobacteria species, not the newer strain.


Agree......looks like the new strain backed off and it's new toxins have been a non-issue. Now lake looks similar to last year with escalating mycrocystins.

Regarding the walleye, you're spot-on. I'm confident population density is low, but also confident fisherman neither located them nor learned techniques to entice. If walleye are in the main lake, no one fishes main lake except for catfish.

I caught 2 walleyes, 16" and 18", from same main lake spot a year ago June. None since though I've invested hours casting for them......but late June last year was when the lake had it's 2009 algae bloom and clarity went to super green density. Those 2 fish were probably from the 2005 or 2006 stocking classes. Inability to catch any smaller walleye probably confirms walleye reproduction hasn't occurred. I think the walleye population is likely better than most think, that whatever fish are there are big ones now, but can't prove it from my lack of angling success.

Do you know if Army Corp has ability to regulate spillway flow? If so, I suspect the quick disappearance of surface algae scum may have been assisted by Army Corp. Lake dropped 3-4" last week, more than you'd expect from sun/evaporation.


----------



## dmoe

zaraspook said:


> I wanted to visually compare water in an Airy-gator area to the rest of the lake. Anyone with knowledge where I can see an Airy-gator in action?
> 
> The one back in Southmoor Shores is in the lagoon almost to 364. You will need to go under the bridge.
> 
> The other one is suppose to be back by Park Grand "Shockers".
> 
> I know one collector has been installed on the Chickasaw right at 219 going back to Behm's. I know this collector was not installed until after the new algae bloomed.


----------



## zaraspook

Excellent and thanks dmoe!


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## bobhar2001

Looks like our govt is throwing more money at the problem or are they rewarding those that caused the problem? Here is one result of many from a google search "lake st mary's $1 million"

http://www.journal-news.com/news/an...oming-to-help-grand-lake-st-marys-820942.html


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## fishintechnician

I think it is a good thing IF it is used properly. No mater how much clean up goes on in the lake it would be a mute point if the source is not stopped, and this is a start.


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## auglaizewader

I hope this isn't a temporary fix. If the farmers get paid to plant cover crops for a year, the effect will be positive , but short-lived. The money will be gone. I hope they concentrate on permanent solutions. Maybe like permanent filter strips/grass waterways.

It's a start.


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## Weekender#1

I would like to thank each of you for the education in GLSM, its problem, the root of the problem and each of your fixes, temporary as they may be. I think you need to step back just one more step. I believe GLSM is a man made structure as all lakes in the state of Ohio, other than Nettles Lake near Pioneer. So what everyone is trying to reverse is nature trying to recover, we dug a hole that a river flowed into I believe the outgoing water was to be the cannals built back in the 1800's, you stopped the outflow for recreation, now we are trying to reverse natural progression. I would think in the coming 50 years most lakes (Res) in Ohio will be silting in, as GLSM is doing now. I am in sales and drive 3 states, up in N Indiana the lakes near Angola have no alge problem other than back cannals right now, no alge seen in the lakes up in Michigan last week as they are all natural. Ponds that are dug seemed to be generally all green with alge in all areas the past few weeks. So all I am saying is you are fighting a loosing cause in the end. But I hope you success in beating this issue I have always liked seeing GLSM and the enjoyment it brings to many.


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## Saws21

I hate to say it but being man made is not the algae problem.... If it was, every farm pond, or residential ponds would also have this problem according to what you are saying... The problem is strictly no buffering and manure,,, If your theory is correct about mother nature reversing itself back, Well that would go for non man made bodies of water too, such as the great lakes or wherever water flows into a body of water, silt will follow, that is a given.

I also hate to see people saying thats its too late,,, I guess most of you don't know/remember that Lake Erie used to be a "dead lake"..... its not dead anymore.... My theory is, if man messed it up, we should make it right again.


----------



## swantucky

Saws21 said:


> I hate to say it but being man made is not the algae problem.... If it was, every farm pond, or residential ponds would also have this problem according to what you are saying... The problem is strictly no buffering and manure,,,


Have you ever tried to manage a farm pond?? The reason most manmade ponds are not like GLSM is because of intensive management for the most part. Look in the pond management forum and see what kind of battles are fought ever year mataining water quality. The difference is in a smaller farm pond they can be intensively managed, GLSM is just too large for that. My pond is only 1/3 of an acre and I battle her every year. It has taken me 12 years to undo what the previous owners did. It is still work raking, treating, and general taking care of it. I would guess I spend 4x the time on that piece of water than I would if it was grass, but it is well worth it. You just can't spend that kind of time per acre on GLSM.

I agree with you and others the nutrient load need to be controlled but I have no answers as to how.


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## Saws21

I know we have several farm ponds around here that the farmer/resident doesn't have to work at algae/aquatic plant growth issues depending on if/when they use the aquashade in their pond.. prevention is definitely the key, Now in your case, the pond sounds like it was already messed up when you bought the property and man, I feel for you there. That is alot of work to re-vert it back to normal.


----------



## zaraspook

bobhar2001 said:


> Looks like our govt is throwing more money at the problem or are they rewarding those that caused the problem? Here is one result of many from a google search "lake st mary's $1 million"
> 
> http://www.journal-news.com/news/an...oming-to-help-grand-lake-st-marys-820942.html


I think the fed Agricultural Dept just insulted Ohio Gov Strickland. Strickland asks the fed govt for help, they send the farmers $1 mil towards saving a $200 mil tourism revenue stream for the state. Unless my math sucks, that's a lousy 1/2 percent, and a pittance of the taxes collected by either the state or feds on revenues.

Maybe one of our ag friends can tell us how many of the acres in the watershed can be planted in ground cover for $1 mil? If the ground cover stops phosphates for one year, didn't I read GLSM would take 20-30 years to turnover the phosphates already in the lake?

Sorry if I sound ungrateful, but if this is the best our Governor and local representation can do, it's time to find new congressional representation. Essentially they've thrown a bone to our Governor and told him to go sit in a corner and be quiet. We've been told our area farmers carry more political clout than tourism but they should be embarrassed with seemingly a drop in the bucket. Where is that powerful agriculture lobby when we need it?


----------



## BFG

Hey Weekender...

When was the last time you were in the Western Basin on Lake Erie? Obviously not recently....plenty of algae out there now, and it gets worse and worse every year. My one buddy described it the other day...

"It looked like rafts of green mini-marshmallows..."


----------



## AvianHunter

BFG said:


> Hey Weekender...
> 
> When was the last time you were in the Western Basin on Lake Erie? Obviously not recently....plenty of algae out there now, and it gets worse and worse every year. My one buddy described it the other day...
> 
> "It looked like rafts of green mini-marshmallows..."


I call it Gatorade diarhea


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## Weekender#1

Now I am not the smartest guy just barely got through school. But if you don't think Erie is filling in also you are way wrong. Lakes are broken down in three terms, I don't know the names of them right now other the eurothropic or something like that and they mean new, middle aged and old. All lakes natural or not are filling in with silt. Take a look at the Western Basin of Erie, then remember to look at satelite views of Erie after a big rain storm, the whole western basin looks like coffee with cream, by the time the water gets to the middle basin it has cleared, where do you think the mud has gone. That would be why the western basin is so shallow compared to other area's of Erie, Saginaw bay would be another example. I have been out in Erie about 10 times or more this year, the yeast in the water made me slow down my boat not to get the water on me or mine. And that is a natural lake, GLSM is not, it is just a mud slide, slow but a mud slide. I hope that they can fix it but the only way would be to dam off the incoming sludge, pump in the water needed to maintain a depth, be ready to fight weed cover and a few chemicals to maintain, its a man made structure and just needs to be maintained, it can not stay healthy by itself. And I am just a old dumb ass talking.


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## Wiper Swiper

Weekender#1 said:


> And I am just a old dumb ass talking.


Not really. Everyone over 40 knows _"it's not good to fool mother nature."_


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## Saws21

weekender, 
Im not calling nor implying that you are a dumb a55.
but no matter if the body of water is man made or not, siltation will occur and it will begin to fill in, its the nature of water being surrounded by land.


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## swantucky

Saws21 said:


> I know we have several farm ponds around here that the farmer/resident doesn't have to work at algae/aquatic plant growth issues depending on if/when they use the aquashade in their pond.. prevention is definitely the key, Now in your case, the pond sounds like it was already messed up when you bought the property and man, I feel for you there. That is alot of work to re-vert it back to normal.


 The former owners, kinda of the like the state is talking about in GLSM, thought dumping chemicals in were the answer. Its not. The kids have been swimming almost every day! So the work has been well worth it.

When you mention farm ponds in your area requiring little work they are probably pretty balanced. Even just adding aquashade to a body of water like GLSM would cost a fortune. Even doing that would not solve the problem, the nutrient load is just too great.

When I look at how many hours I put into my puddle to even think about cleaning up GLSM boggles my mind. I hope it has become bad enough that all parties involved get together and find a long term solution.


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## Saws21

by no means did I mean that GLSM could be treated with any chemicals, the water flowing thru would mean chemical treatments would be a annual thing, which we both agree is not the answer, The answer is to get on the people that are responsible for the phosphorus going into the lake, which is what I've been preaching all along in this post.


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## Sanitarian2

Aquashade or pond dyes do not decrease weed growth until the depth of the water reaches four feet or so, it would be of zero value in GLSM. I own a 3.5 acre pond with bad weed problems too, it is feed by fields and we get plenty of nutrients. We drag the area around the dock to keep if week free and the area around the beach but we get growth even in ten-twelve feet of water over about 75% of the pond. 

With the Aquashade the growth is slower, less dense and we see some improvement but..................


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## Saws21

there is another product called cassaron that you use to kill aquatic rooted growth, you may want to look into that.


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## bountyhunter

I seen this in wis one time 20yrs back ,a clean lake you could see 5ft down , then we stopped there some yrs later ,it looked just like the pic posted . here they built turkey farms up stearm and all the poo nuiteraints were running into the lake.


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## eyewannago

Took these pictures tonight at Sandy Beach very disheartning counted 36 walleyes dead.


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## killingtime

man that sucks.


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## Sanitarian2

Well, that answers the question about whether or not their are numbers of walleye in the lake.


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## Wiper Swiper

Sanitarian2 said:


> Well, that answers the question about whether or not their are numbers of walleye in the lake.


Disgusting picture.

Haven't they been stocking GLSM with saugeye the last few years?


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## eyewannago

Im pretty sure this is the second year they put in saugeyes that have been ultrasounded so they cant spawn the rest of the years they were walleye at least I think thats how it was. Joe


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## fishmounter

I want to say "Thanks" to all that have responded on this thread. I knew when I made my original comments about farmers being responsible for the pollution of GLSM, back on the 4th of July, Independence Day, that I was opening up a can of worms. But it was more like stirring up a hornets nest ! The farmers showed their true colors on here. Proving that many don't care about our great natural resources. But, as this thread has evolved, and people such as "sanitarian" have stated documented scientific facts, the farmers, and the other ignorant naysayers have all bowed out, or at least shut up. And pictures don't lie. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what has changed in the last 20-30 yrs. Housing, and business have done their part to clean up our environment, and the lake flourished as a result. Not only was GLSM a fantastic Crappie and Bass lake, it became one of the best Perch lakes in the state not long after that sewers around the lake were completed. Farming practices have destroyed all that. But, don't be disallusioned, what is happened here at GLSM is happening across our country, at least where there is agriculture. Farmer's are the only ones who can get away with sending all their waste downstream. If any individual, or corporation would have done this, there would be hell to pay ! But, many talk of giving farmers incentives, and tax breaks to correct this situation. Why ? Why give them handouts and reward them for destroying our environment? It is their RESPONSIBILITY NOT TOO !!! They should be held personally, and financially accountable, just as anybody else would ! What has happened here is nothing short of criminal ! Just think of all the business/people who are suffering as a result. Marinas,bait stores,campgrounds,restaurants,bars,gas stations,rentals,property owners,taxidermists,local stores and shops,etc. BP is being held responsible for the Gulf disaster, why is this any different ?


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## Wiper Swiper

fishmounter said:


> The farmers showed their true colors on here. Proving that many don't care about our great natural resources. But, as this thread has evolved, and people such as "sanitarian" have stated documented scientific facts, the farmers, and the other ignorant naysayers have all bowed out, or at least shut up.


_"ignorant naysayers"...?_

Perhaps the reason those that you seem to despise have stopped trying to explain the concept of comparable negligence, is because your mind is closed/narrow to the possibility?

I'm sure you're living a subsistance lifestyle, and have stopped buying all those cheap groceries at the super wal-mart...hypocrite.


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## fishmounter

> I'm sure you're living a subsistance lifestyle, and have stopped buying all those cheap groceries at the super wal-mart...hypocrite
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Pal..... everybody has to buy groceries. But, only an a55 would blame the consumer for the poor, environmentally destructive practices the farmers are using these days. ( that would be like me....blaming YOU...for the oil spill in the gulf....just because YOU buy gasoline ! ) I don't hate farmers, many are my friends..... but just because they are my friends, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or stick up for them. Any moron can see that what they are doing is wrong. What has to happen ? Wait until all our air, and water is so polluted that we all have to live in our own little bubble ? I , and many others are willing to pay the price for organic food. And I believe that if most people REALLY knew how the livestock and crops are grown in this country, organic would be the norm. ( funny how Europe won't buy our grain, or meat ??? ) Why is such "cheap" food so important anyway? 70% of the people in this country are considered obese, maybe higher food prices ( and better QUALITY food) is the best answer to that problem. Gasoline went up, and people still buy gas. And if responsible farming practices cause the price of food to go up, consumers will still buy food. Simple logic, and I guarantee it !
> And when I say people are "ignorant" I mean just that. They just don't know any better. They are uneducated. All they know is what their farmer friends are telling them. I was raised on a farm, and farmed for many years, so I know better. Unlike years ago, most people have no real connection to a farm as used to be. Just ask any kid where hamburger comes from. Either they don't have a clue, or they'll say "Mc Donald's....... sad..... Hell, some of their parents don't know either. People ARE ignorant when it comes to farming today...... So, we have such things as GLSM today,a stinking, rotten cesspool of agriculture waste,with a beach full of dead fish. And believe me, there is more of this coming to other lakes in the near future, unless something is done to stop it ! Does that make you proud, ashamed, just plain mad.....or don't you even care ?
Click to expand...


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## Wiper Swiper

Look "Pal"...the consumer IS responsible for supporting cheap groceries. When your food bill reflects 100% organic purchases, then you can spout off...with your mouth full.

And, while we're at it, yes, the consumer IS responsible for what happened in the Gulf. If we didn't need to fill our SUV's, bass boats, jet skies, and pontoons with $2.50 gas, perhaps we wouldn't be so dependent on the antiquated fuel.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again. If it actually comes down to choosing between a 160 million dollar tourist trade, or a 550 million dollar industry to feed the people. You lose. Drain the swamp. We're not talking about a scenic river, we're talking about an out dated canal resevoir.

I've forgotten more about crop and livestock production than you've ever understood.

The animal densities in the shed are too high. However, the development of the lakefront and urban sprawl are as well. It exasperates the situation. BALANCE is the solution to saving the lake. Not the ignorant, short sighted ideas some of you have about running the farmers out of town. Or, spending 12 million bucks of OUR money sticking your finger in the dike.


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## fishmounter

Wiper Swiper said:


> Look "Pal"...the consumer IS responsible for supporting cheap groceries. When your food bill reflects 100% organic purchases, then you can spout off...with your mouth full.
> 
> And, while we're at it, yes, the consumer IS responsible for what happened in the Gulf. If we didn't need to fill our SUV's, bass boats, jet skies, and pontoons with $2.50 gas, perhaps we wouldn't be so dependent on the antiquated fuel.
> 
> I said it earlier, and I'll say it again. If it actually comes down to choosing between a 160 million dollar tourist trade, or a 550 million dollar industry to feed the people. You lose. Drain the swamp. We're not talking about a scenic river, we're talking about an out dated canal resevoir.
> 
> I've forgotten more about crop and livestock production than you've ever understood.
> 
> The animal densities in the shed are too high. However, the development of the lakefront and urban sprawl are as well. It exasperates the situation. BALANCE is the solution to saving the lake. Not the ignorant, short sighted ideas some of you have about running the farmers out of town. Or, spending 12 million bucks of OUR money sticking your finger in the dike.


Ow ! You are a bit sensitive here. Farmer ?
Ok....Farmer Brown, First..... only a farmer would put all this blame on the consumer. Ridiculous ! ( So, if it "our" fault for the oil spill, then the taxpayer's should be held financially responsible, not BP ???? Right ? Good luck with that one !) It is the FARMER'S waste.... either find a way to keep it on your own property, or don't use the stuff that is destroying our environment.
Second.... We can have both the Lake and Agriculture. Both survived very well,for many, many years, until farmer's got greedy. Cooper Feeds was the contributing factor, but the farmers are still responsible. It is happening lots of other places too, just not to this degree.
Third..... You have a problem with the 12 million to fix the lake? Hell, that is a DROP IN THE BUCKET compared to the FARM BILL that the taxpayer's pay out to farmer's every single year. Farming has become modern day welfare. Just a couple yrs. ago, some area farmer's were getting over $500,000 annually in price support payments, from the taxpayers. Now, thanks to ethanol, prices are so high that cash rent is exceeding $220/acre, and land prices have skyrocketed, some over $10,000/acre. So, don't even think about telling me how farmers are having a tough time making it. I ain't buying what you are shovelin'. 
Just because consumers are willing to buy what you produce, that DOES NOT IN ANY, WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO POISON OUR ENVIRONMENT ! WE ARE NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT ANY LONGER !!!


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## fishmounter

Wiper Swiper said:


> Look "Pal"...the consumer IS responsible for supporting cheap groceries. When your food bill reflects 100% organic purchases, then you can spout off...with your mouth full.
> 
> And, while we're at it, yes, the consumer IS responsible for what happened in the Gulf. If we didn't need to fill our SUV's, bass boats, jet skies, and pontoons with $2.50 gas, perhaps we wouldn't be so dependent on the antiquated fuel.
> 
> I said it earlier, and I'll say it again. If it actually comes down to choosing between a 160 million dollar tourist trade, or a 550 million dollar industry to feed the people. You lose. Drain the swamp. We're not talking about a scenic river, we're talking about an out dated canal resevoir.
> 
> I've forgotten more about crop and livestock production than you've ever understood.
> 
> The animal densities in the shed are too high. However, the development of the lakefront and urban sprawl are as well. It exasperates the situation. BALANCE is the solution to saving the lake. Not the ignorant, short sighted ideas some of you have about running the farmers out of town. Or, spending 12 million bucks of OUR money sticking your finger in the dike.


Oh yea, Wiper, you obviously have forgotten more about farming than I ever knew. Especially one big thing. RESPONSIBILITY !!! And one more thing. You do enjoy fishing, right.... or you wouldn't be on this site, as "Wiper Swiper " ? You sure don't sound like it to me. You act like you could give a **** less !


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## Wiper Swiper

Dude, this thread was considerably better off when Sans2 was your spokesman.

Stop it. Yer hurtin' yerself, and need to vow that you'll never start another written thought with,_ "Oh yea."_


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## fishmounter

Hey Wiper, I feel no pain. I think I am hurting YOU though !! You can only ignore the obvious soooo long.....sooner or later it'll bite you right in the ass ! Huh ???
Remember, it was YOU who said, "fill in the swamp". So you farmer's can just keep on doing what you are doing ! Right ?
DREAM ON............. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN !


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## Wiper Swiper

I didn't say fill it in, I said drain it! 

You are correct. We're plotting against you. Meeting tonight. Jonas Hipshire's barn. Gary Cooper is the guest speaker. (Bring your camcorder)


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## fishmounter

Oh yea ( damn....there I go again ! ) Drain it....so you can farm it too !! Right.............
Its simple man....your argument doesn't hold water, so now you resort to ridicule. Same old ****....... but....its still **** !!
Did I make you mad with my comments about farmers being on welfare ??? Awww......


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## puterdude

Come on guys,please stop the personal attacks and insults.The problem is bad enough with GLSM and your attacks aren't adding any imput to possible solutions and will surely lead to this thread being closed.

That last picture posted was disgusting and a shame.Let's hope a sensible solution is swiftly at hand.I certainly don't want anymore lakes facing this in the future.Let's get a solid fix and fast.


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## Wiper Swiper

puterdude said:


> That last picture posted was disgusting and a shame.Let's hope a sensible solution is swiftly at hand.I certainly don't want anymore lakes facing this in the future.Let's get a solid fix and fast.


Agreed.

Now stick your neck out, Dick. 

You ok with the 12 million in alum?

Are Buckeye, Indian, Loramie, even little Kiser similar enough in their characteristics to believe that such a situation could occur at any one of them?

Is it possible that GLSM is a unique happening that shouldn't be given undue relevance as an indicator of things to come elsewhere?

Is a _"fast fix"_ possible without the mutual agreement of ag industry?

What's the most you'll pay for a gallon of milk, a pound of chicken, a loaf of bread, a dozen eggs?

If the answer to ANY of the above is _"I'm not sure," _then lynching the farmers of the shed seems like a pretty shallow position to me.


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## puterdude

Wiper in all honesty I feel this is probably the first of many.Buckeye and Indian both are canal lakes,Buckeye being the very first and oldest.I hate to think they may be next.That being said I don't think we need to hang the farmers,we all want and need to eat.The population is growing and the demand for food is ever increasing.I don't have a good answer and sadly I don't think anyone does.But surely doing something even if it's band-aid fix for now would buy us some time for a better fix later.I also don't think we need to throw billions of dollars into a maybe also now.If mega billions are required to fix now and do it right, we're hurting for certain.Like already said we're all damned if we do or damned if we don't.I just hate looking at those pictures thinking it's the shape of things to come.


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## fishmounter

In order to fix any problem you need to go to the source, and fix it there. And in this case it happens to be farmers. I am not saying put farmers out of business. That is ridiculous, and will never happen. But, they need to be held personally responsible for their pollution of the environment. If our food costs more money, so be it. While the farmers are raking in record profits, all the business owners that have worked so hard to build a business around GLSM, have NOTHING ! It is sad when agriculture practices can put other people out of business. And create a real health risk. Not to mention the thousands of people who enjoyed the lake for years, and years for recreational purposes. Be it fishing, boating, hunting, camping, etc. Especially when it CAN be avoided. 

As far as this happening other places. You can count on it ! I went through Defiance Thurs., and there was a film of green algae 30' wide as far as I could see. Even with a current in the river, it was obvious. And it is already showing up in Lake Erie. This can happen anywhere. Two years ago, a nearby hog farm was knifing hog manure into the fields, hit a tile, and it went straight to the Auglaize River, via Blackhoof Creek, which was about 1 mile away. Killed everything for about a 4-5 mi. stretch of the river. The DNR brought in 4 Game Wardens to assess the damage. It was horrific. Everything was dead. The nitrogen took all the oxygen out of the water, and fish actually jumped 4-5 ft. up on the bank....starved for oxygen. If I remember right the guy who was contracted to knife in the manure was fined $17,000. I was told he just wrote 'em a check , like it was no big deal.

I don't think most people realize the scope of this problem, and the consequences.


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## Rippin

Heres a link to algae bloom on Lake Erie.

http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2010/07/early_large_algae_blooms_on_la.html


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## Orlando

Heres some info from the local newspaper:
20,600 beef/dairy Cattle
80,00 hogs
168,000 turkeys
3.75 million chikens
629,505 tons of manure each year 
Thats the Grand Lake St.Matys Watershed
They say that the Poultry waste isnt the biggest contributor as 90 percent of the chicken and 75 percent of the turkey waste is exported out of the area by brokers.
From the article it sounds as though the dairy and hog manure is the biggest contributor as it isnting getting hauled away as it is cost prohibitive
Sounds as though someone finally decided there is a problem, hopefully its not to late


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## dock dabber

I also believe Grand Lake is a mess and would like to see it cleaned up so we all could once again enjoy it for many rasons. Then again look at all the trash that is thrown on the ground all around it. Pigs take on many different forms and a lot of them have only two legs. The truth is it is a shame that are road ways, parks and lakes are being trashed in many ways. Indian Lake walk way around the lake shore after the July 4th was a down right disgrace. Animals dont know any better but humans do. All my life I was taught that when I go someplace, always leave it a little better than I found it when I leave. This whole country is looking like a PIG STYE and its getting worse. Its not only the Farmers attitude that needs changed . With that I must ask myself this question, Am I part of the problem? If so I must become part of the solutation. Ever flip a old smoke out the car window ? Its just that simple.


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## spfldbassguy

Orlando said:


> Heres some info from the local newspaper:
> 20,600 beef/dairy Cattle
> 80,00 hogs
> 168,000 turkeys
> 3.75 million chikens
> 629,505 tons of manure each year
> Thats the Grand Lake St.Matys Watershed
> They say that the Poultry waste isnt the biggest contributor as 90 percent of the chicken and 75 percent of the turkey waste is exported out of the area by brokers.
> From the article it sounds as though the dairy and hog manure is the biggest contributor as it isnting getting hauled away as it is cost prohibitive
> Sounds as though someone finally decided there is a problem, hopefully its not to late


That's definitely alotta poop in the watershed.I hope somebody fixes the problem so people can enjoy the lake again.Every year it seems the local news outta Dayton is running a story on how bad GLSM is.If this is a sign of things to come to some of our other lakes,god help us all.


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## Saws21

Exactly right about Buckeye and Indian being canal water sources, So they have a good possibility of being next.

If anyone thinks this problem is a rarity and won't happen anywhere else, well ignorance is bliss.

The State of Florida has been dealing with blue green algae for years! I'm sure no one ever thought one of the Great Lakes would be a "dead lake" either, and if we don't watch it,,, Erie will be that way again

Its a simple fact, The agricultural runoff greatly outnumbers housing and corporation runoff in the GLSM watershed,, I wouldn't doubt 80% of the runoff is from ag .


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## Orlando

Indian started the Watershed program 20 years ago


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## Wiper Swiper

Orlando said:


> Indian started the Watershed program 20 years ago


Exactly.

IF GLSM is an omen of things to come (I don't neccessarily believe that), I would nominate Fort Loramie as the next possible victim. The aggressive dredging they've done over the last 10-12 years has helped, but the North end at times still exibits too much nutrient enrichment. The sparsely populated shed is ripe for CAFO's feeling the heat above her to move South.

Indian changes it's water consistantly, they're very protective of the watershed (although impervious surfacing, and hydromodification lake side is rampant), and dredging operations are annual management. Of all the candidates, I don't believe it will ever happen there.

Buckeye...I'm not sure. Fished there many times, yet don't know enough about the shed, or it's land use. I do know that if the friends of the lake follow the IL model, there's no reason it should get in trouble.

GLSM is too big, too shallow, and poorly managed by the locals and the state. I think they know they've reached the point of diminishing returns. This has been coming for a long time (Sans2 will admit to that.) What pisses me off the most is now that doom is on the horizon, we're all being asked to pitch in with dollars because the residents JUST realized this is critical. You've ignored it for 20 years folks. I'd like to see a more radical strategy towards long term stabilization before I pony up to help bail you out.

Using ag industry as the scapegoat may be popular on an internet message board...but, it ignores the reality of how we got to this point.


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## zaraspook

eyewannago said:


> Took these pictures tonight at Sandy Beach very disheartning counted 36 walleyes dead.


I've been trying to catch walleye in GLSM for the last 14 mos. Caught two and lost a couple others. Your single pic does more to confirm presence of the fish than all my fishing efforts did. Unfortunately, that's 36 fewer eyes to catch. I'm sure there were more dead along other northeast shore lines with the wind pushing from the south west.


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## puterdude

Well it appears this thread is dead as it's just spinning it's wheels.We all hate what we're seeing and no one has a viable solution to the problem.The feds have been called in and we all will suffer for that as I am yet to see anything the Feds have touched that isn't worst off in the end.Some are pointing the finger at the farmers,which is the culprit, but we can't tar & feather them and not expect food prices to increase tremendously.Yea we all love to fish,boat,ski,live on the water,but when it comes to survival it's secondary to eating.I'm far from knowing all there is about the situation but I do know now there is no quick fix so wishing for it is useless and like I already said,expect the worst with the Fed EPA involved now,May God have mercy on us all,we''ll need it.
There are no large livestock farms in Buckeye's water shed.Plenty of grain growers so maybe the fertilizers they use won't have as much of a rapid result on it's water as the livestock has on GLSM.Buckeye gets regular annual dredging so I am sure that helps as well.But it's time we all take more interest in ALL of our lakes and their water sheds.We all have to start somewhere before it's too late for all of us.


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## RedCanoe59

on the daily standard today they had photos from the lake festible of the cardboard box boat race and kids fishing. the the state deem the lake some what safe again or where thoose photos taken at a pond somewhere else..the one on 29 as you leave celina would seem like the most likely place


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## auglaizewader

Those photos were taken at a pond. All water activities for the Lake Festival were moved, except for one. The exception was the amphibious cars did take a cruise.


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## LEfriend

puterdude said:


> The feds have been called in and we all will suffer for that as I am yet to see anything the Feds have touched that isn't worst off in the end... and like I already said,expect the worst with the Fed EPA involved now,May God have mercy on us all,we''ll need it.


Yea, right. 

Maybe you are too young to remember the 60's when the Cuyahoga river was burning and Lake Erie was a cesspool and there were hardly any walleyes. Those same "Feds" passed the Clean Water Act, the Great Lakes Water Quality agreement, made the towns get their sewage treatment acts together and cleaned up the Lake so you can enjoy the beautiful resource and great fishing you have today.

When I was a kid there were no walleye to catch in Ohio, no deer to shoot, no Bald Eagles to be seen, and it was a rarity to see a flock of ducks. All of that is changed for the better today through the work of "those Feds" and their cooperative efforts with their counter parts at the State DNR's.

Some of those Feds who will be working on Grand Lake are my friends...I know personally that they are hard working, dedicated, talented people who will give their all to make the lake better...and they don't deserve a bashing.


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## spfldbassguy

It's still a problem that shoulda been looked at well before now.Why is it that our society seems to wait for something to happen before acknowledging there's a problem?Hopefully now all the brainiacs we got can solve this problem so everyone can go back to enjoying GLSM.


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## puterdude

Lefriend there is a lot of difference from FED and STATE officials. When I said FEDS I was referring to the US Government.Local & State government does and knows far more than the Federal government about local problems.Just for a few examples,how about the current oil disaster in the gulf or hurricane katrina,or better yet,cap & Trade,or the health care fiasco.I for one would throw my trust to locals before trusting bureacrats at a desk in DC.


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## zaraspook

puterdude said:


> Lefriend there is a lot of difference from FED and STATE officials. When I said FEDS I was referring to the US Government.Local & State government does and knows far more than the Federal government about local problems.Just for a few examples,how about the current oil disaster in the gulf or hurricane katrina,or better yet,cap & Trade,or the health care fiasco.I for one would throw my trust to locals before trusting bureacrats at a desk in DC.


Puterdude.......you're right, Fed gov't too often makes a mess, overspends with over reaching intentions. However, local gov't and state are making a good effort, but GLSM isn't improving. I wish purely local effort could handle it but apparently they lack knowledge, resources, execution, or all three. 

After decades the State hasn't been able to halt the slide and reverse GLSM's direction. State also must lack knowledge, resources, execution, or all three. 

At a minimum the Feds have resources (money). Too bad the Fed $ comes with strings attached and rules we'd rather not have, but where else do we go? GLSM's continuing decline proves current path isn't satisfactory. Insane and blind to think otherwise. Buckeye and other lakes will benefit in the long run. Time to swallow our pride and admit we lacked fortitude to fix it ourselves.


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## fishmounter

I for one welcome any help that is offered to correct this problem, and see that it never happens again. The local officials have done nothing, that is obvious. Probably because it is their friends and relatives who are the perpetrators here. The County Soil and Water Services is made up of farmers, or farmers children. You can't have farmers policing farmers, that will never work in the environments favor. So, it is high time someone else comes in and isn't afraid to step on some toes, and kick some ass. If it takes the Feds. to do it ...fine. Personally, I think it is an insult that USDA has kicked in a meger $1,000,000 to help with a problem, that they helped create. Instead,they should try and govern their own industry, so a disaster like this never happens.

Lets look at how farming practices have changed over the years. 25-30 yrs. ago, the land was worked and tilled, to create a seedbed, that would retain, and hold much more moisture ( and rain ) than it does today. So,surface runoff is much greater today. Because the land was tilled, it had to be MUCH dryer before you could get on it with a tractor. Very little crops were EVER planted before May. So most of the crops, and what chemicals that were used were applied AFTER all the April showers. Nowadays, farmers get on the ground much earlier as the ground is much more solid from no-tillage. So, one hell of a lot of it is planted, and fertilized, and sprayed, BEFORE many of the heavy spring rains occur, causing heavy runoffs of nutrients and chemicals,right into our streams and lakes. Plant population per acre is much higher today, so more fertilizer is used than years ago. Same goes for more chemicals being used, thanks to genetically altered crops.Cover crops, and crop rotations were the norm back then, as farmers made a concerted effort to take care of the land. Yea, you had siltation back then, just as we do now, but the runoff was just a whole lot cleaner back then. The increase in livestock in this particular watershed, is a big part of the problem, but the fertilizer nutrient overload is occurring in all agricultural areas. The University of Wis. has done extensive studies on this, across the country.

Maybe something to consider would be going back to conventional tillage, planting at a later date, along with the filter strips to slow down the runoff. Of course, farmers won't like this, as it will have an effect on yields....or will it ? I have seen thousands of acres of crops these last several years, that were VERY POOR, due to impatient farmers who jumped in and planted way to early, before the ground was even close to being warm enough for germination to occur. Its like it has become a huge competition to see who can get done first.


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## puterdude

zaraspook,I think you hit the nail on the head.We just don't have the resources to fix it right,I guess what I am saying is the Feds will come in ,spend billions, and thousands of new regulations out the gazoo will follow.The cost will be passed down to we,the public in the end.But something has to be done for sure.Guess time will tell our fate.


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## GETTIN' THERE

"I think it is an insult that USDA has kicked in a meager $1,000,000 to help with a problem"


Let's face it folks, the state is broke and the Feds are spending all the money they collect and then some. GLSM is way.. way ..way down on their priority list. I hate to be a pessimist, but I don't see anywhere near the resources needed being brought to bare on the problem.


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## fishmounter

All the "doomsday attitudes" will not get us anywhere when it comes to fixing this problem. 

It is not isolated to GLSM, but is a nationwide issue. Our Gov't can always come up with money for all the other crisis', worldwide, so surely they should address this real health risk right here in our country. 

I am not in favor of more Gov't regulation in any way, but, at the same time, it is just plain wrong for anyone to do anything that poses a risk to someone elses health, right to make a living , or their way of life. For God's sake, Celina gets their drinking water out of GLSM ! So, in this case, regulation. and monitoring, is a necessity, and , long overdue. It seems some farmers have found ways to "get around" the regulations, and created this catastrophe. It will take all the public pressure we can muster to get something done, but, I believe it can happen !


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## fishmounter

I received this pm from redcanoe59 today...... and I would like to share with you everyone what kind of person he truly is....as I stated i would open a can of worms when I first replied to this post... 

Personal message to me from Red Canoe :

[ Titled : face to face

august 20, 21 and 22 i'm going to be in the area.
i'd like to see if you would like to step up and as you said ", it is high time someone else comes in and isn't afraid to step on some toes, and kick some ass."

i know your know what your really saying is bring an outsider who isn't affraid to challenge the status quo....

but as i said publicly later you want to insult me or the farmers in the area come see me face to face....are you affraid, can you step on my toes, can you kick some ass....no your a bigger pile of chicken **** then whats in any barn in mercer county, keep hiding behind a screen name ]



I guess RedCanoe thinks he is tough stuff cause he baled some hay when he was in high school...Now who's the pile of chicken **** ??!?!


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## Saws21

Well I wonder if RedCanoe59 will threaten to kick the Fed's butt if they come into town and get on the farmer's a55's or will he hide behind a screen name? lol


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## Saws21

for those of you that think GLSM is an isolated incident,,,,
I just saw on Lima's 6 o'clock news that Lake Erie is having a blue green algae problem as well.. The state tested the phosphorus levels where the Maumee comes into the bay at Erie and the levels are at their highest in 33 years..I'm sure the maumee gets its water from the GLSM watershed.


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## puterdude

Boy oh Boy,,, well I'm done with this thread.It has turned into circus or side show now.Fishmounter be thankful Ole Misfit isn't with us anymore as I think long ago he would have clipped your wings a little.PM's are just that private messages and you violated that by posting his message here,regardless what he said,it was personal as he never posted here for all of us to see.You may have exposed him some, but you have exposed yourself as well.You could have chose to air your differences privately as he did,where it should have been, but you chose to air the laundry here.You've lost all your credibility by doing so.

Good Luck Grand Lake St Mary! Hope it gets worked out.


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## fishmounter

Hey... Red Canoe, I see on your profile picture you are proudly displaying a big fish ! Damn shame the thousands of people who have fished GLSM all their lives, have lost their opportunity to do the same thing ! HUH ???? 

Not to mention the swimmers, boaters,skiers,duck hunters, etc.,etc. HUH ? 

Do you care ? Obviously NOT !!!


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## fishmounter

Puterdude,
Sorry you feel that way man. It was Red Canoe who told others ( not me ) earlier on here to FO several times, because they didn't agree with him. Funny, I didn't see you criticize him at the time. Bet he is having a good laugh right now. I felt he should have been kicked off of here back then, but you guys did nothing. 

I have made no personal attacks against anyone. I have however criticized Agriculture as a whole just as I have done for at least the last 10 yrs. It is a problem, and I saw this coming l-o-n-g ago !

So, go ahead and bash me. I take physical threats VERY seriously, and I felt others should be aware of it also. Too bad you chose to NOT deal with the SOURCE of the problem....... Wait a minute...... that is the same problem we have with GLSM, nobody wants to deal with the source of the problem there either. So....join the crowd. And for the record, I'd say you have lost your credibility also.


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## killingtime

just curious fishmounter do you live close to st marys.


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## puterdude

fishmounter,I am not taking sides,except maybe we can't line the farmers up and shoot them.I am not on your side or redcanoe's.I am concerned about our lakes as much as the next guy but you have so much hatred for farmers it's beyond obvious and like it or not the solution will be working "with" the farmers not running them out of town.As for the FO I never caught or seen that but rest assured had I ,I would have checked him for it as well.This is a site for the entire family ,not just us guys but our wife and kids as well and this site is no place for that kind of talk.


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## ShakeDown

CLOSED. Let it rest boys.


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