# Drugs and addiction



## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

How many people on here have been affected by the recent overdoses lately? My daughter in law lost her nephew to heroin and fentanyl, the people he was with drove around for two hours and abandoned the car at a gas station, they were caught and arrested.Four hours later a young girl died the same way, they dumped her at a hospital in Canton. I knew the young man, he was highly intelligent, but the drugs were something that he just couldn't get away from. It's a shame that today's youth is being led down a path of destruction by people who don't care about anyone, except the money.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Yeah, it's pretty bad out there. Can't believe people are will to try this crap that's basically poison for your body. At least weed comes from a plant and has some medical benefits!

Lost my uncle last year to a driver that was high. Still waiting on the final sentencing!


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't know about lately but I have had folks I know die and seen it wreck the lives of many others. Once it gets a grip on you it never really lets go. It's the same as it's always been. The difference now is that cheap, easily accessible legal drugs are driving down heroin (and other drugs) prices. 
I started to ramble on about the issue and deleted it. The bottom line is, as long as we see it as an individuals weakness, we as a people won't _really_ be too concerned about solving the issue. 
Only if it wrecks the life of someone you love.
IMHO...


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

post deleted


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

I have a buddy who is a EMT/firefighter in Jackson township. He said they run multiple OD calls every shift . Pretty sad.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

My little brother "struggles" with it. Fact is he's an idiot and weak. He has wrecked our family. He, along with myself and my other brother, couldn't have asked for a better upbringing. My parents always have and continue to give us all the support and love we ever would have needed or wanted. We never had to want for anything growing up, but it always came with a lesson. Neither of us have ever had the issue. He chose to make those decisions, and as far as im concerned he can live or die with them. I'm all about second chances, but not 8th, 9th, 10th chances. I don't even want to know how many thousands of dollars they have spent on him in various rehab facilities, fines, bail, restitution, etc. He's currently in Florida at a facility, last I heard. There are millions of people who would love to have the life that he willingly threw away and took for granted.


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

This is spot on. Heroin is not new, the increased demand created by big pharma is.



streamstalker said:


> As soon as I heard the government was shutting down the "pill mills" a light went off in my brain, and I made the connection to heroin moving right in. Funny that government officials who decided it was time to do "something" didn't figure the same thing. The big pharma companies knew they were making enough pills to get everyone in American happy, and they didn't care as long as they were making money. The few pill mill doctors who got busted were basically street level dealers while the big pharma cartel execs went on making money as people got hooked and lives got ruined. A few of them ought to share a cell next to Shorty Guzman.
> 
> Yeah, one of my former students died last year...shook me up pretty good.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with your theory, just not with where the blame lies. When big pharma starts going around and shoving pills down people's throats, then I'll start blaming them. Blaming a drug pusher for an addicts choices and decisions is no different than Blaming a gun manufacturer for a lunatics shooting spree in my opinion.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

I have to agree with Beaver on this one.I neither pray for or have any sympathy for an addict at all.I do however feel bad for their families who try and try to cope with these selfish losers.Nobody forced them to start taking drugs and every one of them knew beforehand the risks involved.Each and every time they shoot up or snort whatever they know that they're putting something in their body that can kill them.I know how bad addiction is I'm a smoker and I find it nearly impossible to really quit,not halfway but really quit.I don't blame anybody else(including the tobacco companies)for my addiction,nobody ever made me pick up that first cigarette and smoke it and nobody is going to help me to quit that will have to come on my own.Richland County where I reside is having record numbers of people overdosing on heroin which local authorities are blaming on a recent bad batch of heroin being sold in the county.Only two days ago on Wednesday there was 14 overdoses in an eight hour period in Mansfield one would think that news like that would be enough of an incentive to quit.Lastly before anbody else brings it up as long as I'm addicted to cigarettes I consider myself a loser too my will should be strong enough to overcome the urge but so far that hasn't been the case.


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## Aaron2012 (Mar 26, 2014)

I had a close family member die of an overdose in March. He went into court ordered rehab after string of bad decisions. He went in for heroin addiction and was clean for about a year after he got out but started up again. He didn't die from a heroin od it was front cocaine and Fentynol. I see a few people wandering the streets on my way to work and they all look like they are strung out and looking for a fix. It's pretty sad that they will give up everything they have just for a few minutes of pleasure from a drug but they can't see how it affects the loved ones around them.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

I ran a campus Taco Bell for most of my career. You would see talented folks that just didn't have the "umph" to get to the next spot or to even give it a go. I have seen some that were drug user's, cutters, alchies, all different varieties of "loosers". I would definitely judge them, think they were weak. 
Now days, I realize I'm not nor have I ever walked in their shoes... 

I suppose it's easy to look at an acquaintance or sibling and say they're weak, they are a victim of their own choices. Actually, you have no idea what's happening in their "world". We're all different. Life comes easier for some than others. 
We all seem to have the same choices, sadly some brains just don't seem to see it that way.


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## glasseyes (Jan 28, 2012)

I think the problem is a lot worse then some realize, fifty years ago I know there was still a drug problem but not like today. We had things to do as kids and we had parents that allowed things in our lives or did not allow. People in general are soft today and the kids claim they are bored and turned to drugs as an excuse, this is coming from interviews with young addicts so I'm taking that for granted.
I work as a supervisor in a factory and I've had the same job for 41 years. I have seen the problems of those young people as the years have gone by , the work force has changed, they feel entitled now and just dont think they have to work. I have never seen a person OD until this past year and we have had several happen in the plant. I had a 22 year old boy die from it on Christmas day at home, another a week before I was doing CPR on till squad got to him, he made it. and there are others. Thing is there are several things causing the problem not just one thing and no one person to blame. It is our society that has changed and continues to spiral down the tubes.


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

I work in a substance abuse program. I could write pages on this stuff but it's definitely not a single reason or issue why people use and can be pretty complicated. I think it's easy to judge or say I'd never do this or that when we haven't been through what some of them have, as someone above mentioned. Sure there are people who just like to get high but majority have mental health issues of varying degree or traumatic incidents that were never dealt with/no proper coping mechanisms or support to process the incident correctly and use drugs as an escape.


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## Roscoe (Jul 22, 2007)

Last year in Afghanistan over 5,500 tons of Opium were produced. Heroin is made from Opium.

The U.S. military has allowed poppy cultivation to continue in order to appease farmers and government officials involved with the drug trade who might otherwise turn against the Afghan Karzai government in Kabul. Fueling both sides, in fact, the opium and heroin industry is both a product of the war and an essential source for continued conflict. So who ya going to blame?

It's very sad.

Roscoe


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

now a lot of folks just brew there own drugs. I have a son that's hooked on that stuff. we've tried everything that we know to get him off the stuff. but he'll go for a few days then he comes up higher than a Georgia pine. we've tried to get him to go to rehab but he doesn't want to hear it. were just at the end of our rope with his addiction.
sherman


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Gottagofishn said:


> I ran a campus Taco Bell for most of my career. You would see talented folks that just didn't have the "umph" to get to the next spot or to even give it a go. I have seen some that were drug user's, cutters, alchies, all different varieties of "loosers". I would definitely judge them, think they were weak.
> Now days, I realize I'm not nor have I ever walked in their shoes...
> 
> I suppose it's easy to look at an acquaintance or sibling and say they're weak, they are a victim of their own choices. Actually, you have no idea what's happening in their "world". We're all different. Life comes easier for some than others.
> We all seem to have the same choices, sadly some brains just don't seem to see it that way.


I have to agree and disagree again. You're right that life comes easier for some, and everyone has different situations. Where I disagree is that isn't an excuse. Regardless of what the situation is, the choices are the same. I'd venture to guess that nobody in the world can say that they've never been told that drugs are bad. 

As far as having no idea what's going on in someone's world, I agree to a point. I worked in corrections for 10 years and have seen all walks of life wasted. It's a shame. However, in my brothers case, I lived in the same world he did. Raised by the same parents, lived in the same house, went to the same school, etc. The only difference was that I was the first one to do it. My parents were a lot more strict on me than him, because he was the baby and the last to leave the nest. Maybe that was the issue, too much freedom. Regardless, it was still his choice to take the easy way out. Regardless of the reason, that choice is weakness. 

After his 4th or 5th stint in rehab, he was supposedly better again. Having nowhere to go, because he had already stolen and manipulated everyone else to the point that they supported him but refused to allow him in their house, I offered to let him stay with me until he got back on his feet. After all, he is my baby brother and who else does he have to look upon if not big brother right? I secured him a job on my name, because in this small community word travels fast, and nobody wanted to hire him. I added him to my insurance policy and let him use my spare vehicle. I asked nothing of him except a little help around the house, and to focus on getting his life back. All seemed well for a few months. He was even talking to a recruiter for the army supposedly. 

One day I came home, and nobody was there. His things were gone. Something wasn't right. I called my parents, and they asked that I come over so they could talk. Apparently he went to them and spilled his guts, out of fear of what I would do. The job I had secured for him, he showed up for half of his first day and never went back. The recruiter he was seeing, hadn't heard of him. The money he was getting (that I assumed was his pay from the job), was from stealing checks from my book and writing them to himself while I was at work. 

Apparently he was smart enough to realize that it was the end of the month and I would be getting a statement. I never write checks, so any check copy would raise a red flag, let alone 7 checks. He went asking for help again. This time instead of bailing him out, they stood their ground and told him the only help they would offer was to buy him a one way ticket to anywhere in the country as long as he didn't come back until he was truly "better". His other option was for them to wash their hands of him and he could deal with me. He was on a flight to new Orleans (one of his rehab people have a business there that they offer employment to people like him) that day. My parents saved both of our lives that day. 

He was gone for a couple years and came back. I made it clear that I wanted nothing to do with him, and if they did, that was on them. After all, they're his parents. I have children and I hope I never have to deal with this. He was "better" again, again. Until he wasn't, again, again. 

Last I heard, he was in Florida at a facility again after being arrested for peddling drinks on the beaches without a permit. I don't know for sure, and I don't care. As far as im concerned I have one brother, and my children have one uncle. 

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying everyone has the same situation, chemical make up, or mentality. However, everyone has the same choice. 

I'm sorry if I offend anyone. I know many of us have had this hit close to home. This is just something that has really took a toll on the people that I love most, over one selfish person. What I've told you here isn't the half of it and truth be told, I don't know the half of it because my parents hold a lot back from me when it comes to him.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

As someone who has experimented in the past, I know how strong these drugs are. All it takes is once. Their grip is powerful as you can see. If I hadn't had such a strong will/personality I would have been in trouble.

That said, i know if I were to ever take a single drag off a cigarette again I'd be wanting more. The only difference is cigarettes don't turn you into a theiving zombie. The level of addiction is similar I'm guessing.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

no sympathy period. you don't try it not knowing the consequences. lost a few friends and have a few family members on the road to death. no sympathy period. no excuses.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> As someone who has experimented in the past, I know how strong these drugs are. All it takes is once. Their grip is powerful as you can see. If I hadn't had such a strong will/personality I would have been in trouble.
> 
> That said, i know if I were to ever take a single drag off a cigarette again I'd be wanting more. The only difference is cigarettes don't turn you into a theiving zombie. The level of addiction is similar I'm guessing.


 I've had several doctors tell me that nicotine is way more addictive than crack cocaine and just as addictive as heroin and meth.I hate being a smoker but like you said nicotine doesn't alter my thinking,make me want to steal to support my habit or be a burden on my family.I don't buy the excuse that a person can become a drug addict due to the environment they grew up in or currently live in or because of depression or any of the other hundreds of excuse's as was mentioned everybody knows that drugs are bad and if you take them that's your own decision,it has nothing to do IMO on where or how you were brought up.Same exact thing you hear about these gang-bangers killing people,"Oh they're a product of their environment" so I guess by some folks thinking if you had a terrible life growing up it's cool to do drugs,be in a street gang and gun down innocent people because after all that's the way you were raised-don't buy it.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> As someone who has experimented in the past, I know how strong these drugs are. All it takes is once. Their grip is powerful as you can see. If I hadn't had such a strong will/personality I would have been in trouble.
> 
> That said, i know if I were to ever take a single drag off a cigarette again I'd be wanting more. The only difference is cigarettes don't turn you into a theiving zombie. The level of addiction is similar I'm guessing.


I was able to recognize that a certain drug was going to change my life in a negative way and was able to stop before it had its talons too deep. Drugs today I think are so much more powerful then what I delt with though. IMHO. I feel sorry for anyone who is addicted and I try to remember what they are going through. Has to do something with ones "will", but after long enough addiction I think that "will" has been burned up. How to get that "will" back, the strength, I do not know. If I did, I would be giving that knowledge away freely.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

All right, I'll toss this in: My late mother was a cancer survivor who also suffered from spinal stenosis (look that up). I used to organize her medications every week, including oxycodone and oxycontin pills and fentanyl patches.

Her regimen of medications varied with whatever doctor had her care at the time. Some would dope her up but one time when she was in the hospital a doctor looked at her medication schedule and put her on Narcan. I stood next to her hospital bed and watched her screaming in agony through withdrawl, at 85 years of age. I am not kidding. That was not pleasant..


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

ldrjay said:


> no sympathy period. you don't try it not knowing the consequences. lost a few friends and have a few family members on the road to death. no sympathy period. no excuses.


Hey it wont happen to me... maybe you have never said it... I dont know. I said it... 30 years ago.. I spent bunchs of money.. I was damn lucky to be able to give it up.


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## Spike Dog (Mar 13, 2015)

I think that some people have an addictive personality. Not everyone is wired the same. Some people can dabble in drugs, (or sex/gambling/booze/eating/etc.) and can give it up and walk away. Other people let it take control of their lives. Addiction is real, its not just somebody being weak.

I also think that you can't force someone to get help with their addiction. The only way for a true addict to start to get healed is if they truly want to quit. I would guess that the success rate of court ordered drug counseling is woefully low.

I wish anyone that has to deal with this all the best. I listen to a radio station from Cincinnati in the afternoons and they have talked extensively about the heroin epidemic in S Ohio and N Kentucky. I hope people come up with some solutions soon.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

The devastating stories of addiction go on and on.
Our family has a few of our own that has grieved us deeply. Throughout the years, dealing with addicts of various nature within the family and outside the family, from alcohol to crack and heroin, to people that had legit injuries and operations that were put on opiates for pain by their MD for extended periods of time, I'm convinced there are those that became addicts cause they just like to party and get high but there are those that have become addicts due to their Drs. overprescribing opiate based meds. We went for several yrs. with Drs. prescribing Vicodine, Percocet, percodan, Fentanyl and other opiate based drugs for everything from headaches to minor/major surgeries to dental work. Got so popular many Drs. became nothing but legal drug dealers. The very reason for the Fed. Law changes.
Better late than never.... but surely way too late, cause we now have millions addicted to opiates and a certain percentage of those addicts were following their Drs. orders post medical procedures.
The results of the yrs. of overprescribing opiate based pain meds. is we currently have an opiate addiction epidemic in this country unlike any drug problem we've ever had in history. And this epidemic doesn't descriminate. As we've seen with deaths on the news,celebrities and rich people as well as middle class and poor are all affected.
Sometimes I think the general public has the twisted idea that someone shooting heroin is on the lower step of the 'social ladder' then someone abusing pain meds. Fact is, opiate based pain meds are nothing but synthetic heroin in pill form. Really no difference between the two when it comes to the long term use and effects on the body.
Saying that, many that go from Percs(for example) to heroin do so cause heroin is cheaper. They get a months script at 4/day(never seen a script that didn't dose at that rate) , they snort 120 pills up in 1-2wks and the rest of the month they either buy Percs off the street at $40-$80 per pill or go to the cheaper real deal...heroin. If you're snorting 10-15 pills a day(not uncommon) at $80/pill, only the rich can stay on the pills.
There are two things I've learned 1st hand about addiction to especially opiates:
1) this addiction will never stay on the same level. The person will either seek help and stop...or it will get worse.
2) it doesn't matter how much hurt the addiction causes, how much $ the family throws at the problem, how many demands the loved ones put on the addict, the addict WILL NOT STOP till they have reached their own rock bottom.

While the heroin in this country is coming from across our borders, we are surely developing opiate addicts right here in this country.
Suboxone is fast becoming another drug in this addiction equation as well because as we speak, it is being over prescribed and prescribed by Drs. in ways it was not developed to be prescribed in. And it is even harder to kick then Percs.

Lastly, I think it's important to remember that there's not one addict out there that woke up one day and said" today, I'm gonna become an addict". 
So for those that think it can never happen to them...don't fool yourself.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Don't think for a minute that it's just young people. I'm a rep for swisher sweet cigars so I'm in these stores all day long. The amount of people that walk in zoned out of their minds on meth and heroine is amazing. People in their later years of life are on it as well. It's pathetic to see daily. Most of these dopers are getting into cars as well. Sad thing is a large majority go right back home after they buy the torch, chore boy, drain cleaner and such. They don't work and do their best at any cost to keep the buzz going all day long. It's pathetic to see. I eat 6 Percocet a day for my back and could quit in 5 minutes if the docs could fix my back. Self control goes a long ways in life. 

These people want the buzz a hell of a lot more than they need to get rid of any pain. I'm getting to the point I have very little mercy for them. It's sick to see the life they are choosing and the state pushing the cities to carry the overdose shots for these people. How much do we have to spend on these people. I say after one save your life shot you get a stamp on your forehead. Next time you choose to get high and od too bad. Sorry to any that think this is cold but I see so much of it everyday I'm bitter to it all. Some of the cities I work in it's a major major problem.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I would keep a stash of Mom's leftover oxyodone 5mg pills. They never got me high but they were perfect for killing pain when I pulled a muscle or had one of those body-ache flu episodes where every joint hurts.

But the addiction bug never bit me. I like opiates but I've never felt driven to get them. I've never seen heroin.


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Harbor Hunter said:


> I've had several doctors tell me that nicotine is way more addictive than crack cocaine and just as addictive as heroin and meth.I hate being a smoker but like you said nicotine doesn't alter my thinking,make me want to steal to support my habit or be a burden on my family.I don't buy the excuse that a person can become a drug addict due to the environment they grew up in or currently live in or because of depression or any of the other hundreds of excuse's as was mentioned everybody knows that drugs are bad and if you take them that's your own decision,it has nothing to do IMO on where or how you were brought up.Same exact thing you hear about these gang-bangers killing people,"Oh they're a product of their environment" so I guess by some folks thinking if you had a terrible life growing up it's cool to do drugs,be in a street gang and gun down innocent people because after all that's the way you were raised-don't buy it.


Nicotine does alter your thinking that's why you say you hate smoking and still do it, probably why if youre stressed or need a "break" you grab a smoke. It's not a burden on your family unless you get cancer, have issues with your cardiovascular health, or get copd. Life circumstances aren't an excuse but an important part in understanding addiction and helping treat it in many. Lets say your 7 years old and your mom gets drunk a few days a week and passes out. When your moms passed out her boyfriend molests you. Maybe youre scared to speak up but finally you do but your mom doesn't believe you, the one person who is supposesed to be there to protect you. You become a troubled teen who turns to drugs to cope and escape you're reality. You probably don't care if you die from the drugs because feel like life's not worth living anyways.

Not an excuse but I'm sure everyone is strong enough to deal with these life events and wouldn't have any mental issues right? This is a person we may see on the street and look down at but could be successful in life with counseling and treatment. Again this isn't an excuse but a way to understand and treat. Also this isn't everyone and again some people just like to party and live that life. I had a family member who had substance abuse problems, we grew up in the same house, he stole drugs from my terminally ill mother. I don't see him as weak, don't make excuses for him, he's just his own person, and I know he has to live with the guilt of what he has done.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

Again, some say it's a weakness, I'm saying were wired differently. Where you are strong maybe I am weak.

I'm just saying for whatever the reason, user's gonna use. I used to see it as a weakness, now, it's just a problem that has to be dealt with. If it's a family member understand they will behave like a drug user. They will use you, steal from you and ask you to forgive them over and over. Try to love them and help if you can, if you don't your probably only making the issue worse. If you don't offer your support who will? 

I imagine most will never find a way to stop, all we can do is offer a hand and hope some day they'll take it.


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## Roscoe (Jul 22, 2007)

If it's somebody you care for and want to help get them off drugs and have tried everything and it's about at it's end for the family and him, then give him a One Way Greyhound Bus ticket to say Philly and enough change for a pay phone. If he is strong willed he will make it. If not, you did the best you could do. I know.

Their environment has to change. Support is great but when it's the same thing all the time

I feel you have to make a move. Gotta get them away from all their friends and Dealers.





Roscoe


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Gottagofishn said:


> Again, some say it's a weakness, I'm saying were wired differently. Where you are strong maybe I am weak.
> 
> I'm just saying for whatever the reason, user's gonna use. I used to see it as a weakness, now, it's just a problem that has to be dealt with. If it's a family member understand they will behave like a drug user. They will use you, steal from you and ask you to forgive them over and over. Try to love them and help if you can, if you don't your probably only making the issue worse. If you don't offer your support who will?
> 
> ...


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## ldrjay (Apr 2, 2009)

Dovans said:


> Hey it wont happen to me... maybe you have never said it... I dont know. I said it... 30 years ago.. I spent bunchs of money.. I was damn lucky to be able to give it up.


it won't ever be me. I'm not dumb enough to try any of the crap that's floating around period. good for you on getting clean. to even try it once now is stupid. easier ways to off yourself.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

I also been told there is a Gene... It is in some people's DNA. It is ah, dormant untill waken? Then its all fired up and raring to go.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I don't think you have to be weak to try it the first time necessarily. We all try things for different reasons. I also don't think you have to be weak to become addicted. The drug is just that strong. People can think whatever they want. Calling someone weak certainly isn't going to make them any stronger.

Dovans, I don't know if I agree with the gene thing. Or addiciton being genetic. I had a whole family of alcoholics(all aunt/uncles dead now from it basically) yet myself or mom/dad never became one. I think that's just an excuse mostly myself. Justification. I haven't read many studies or anything on it either so.

I also don't agree that its a disease. A disease should be something organic originating from a foreign source not something you thrust upon yourself voluntarily.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

burnsj5 said:


> Nicotine does alter your thinking that's why you say you hate smoking and still do it, probably why if youre stressed or need a "break" you grab a smoke. It's not a burden on your family unless you get cancer, have issues with your cardiovascular health, or get copd. Life circumstances aren't an excuse but an important part in understanding addiction and helping treat it in many. Lets say your 7 years old and your mom gets drunk a few days a week and passes out. When your moms passed out her boyfriend molests you. Maybe youre scared to speak up but finally you do but your mom doesn't believe you, the one person who is supposesed to be there to protect you. You become a troubled teen who turns to drugs to cope and escape you're reality. You probably don't care if you die from the drugs because feel like life's not worth living anyways.
> 
> Not an excuse but I'm sure everyone is strong enough to deal with these life events and wouldn't have any mental issues right? This is a person we may see on the street and look down at but could be successful in life with counseling and treatment. Again this isn't an excuse but a way to understand and treat. Also this isn't everyone and again some people just like to party and live that life. I had a family member who had substance abuse problems, we grew up in the same house, he stole drugs from my terminally ill mother. I don't see him as weak, don't make excuses for him, he's just his own person, and I know he has to live with the guilt of what he has done.


 I agree with some of the things you say and some I don't.First I don't believe that anybody in the beginning turns to drugs to cope or escape reality I'm sure that down the road those are reasons but not at the start.I think peer pressure is a huge reason why kids get started-they're at a party or just hanging out with friends and since everybody else is doing it and they don't want their friends thinking they're a nerd or whatever they go along with it.I think people that are hooked on the crap a little later on in life may become users because of stress or depression,who really knows why anybody does it,but in any event it's still their choice they are aware of what can and probably will happen if they continue abusing.Yes I know that I said I hate smoking and it's for a lot of reasons not just health and if and when I meet my demise it's on me and me alone.I totally disagree with the statement that smoking alters my thought process I have owned my own business for many years and I make all the calls that any CEO would and if I may boast a little-the company is very successful.Both of my grandfathers lived into their hundreds and both were what would be considered to be heavy smokers(over 3 packs a day)the one died 4 days after his 103rd birthday from an injury following a car accident the other died at 101 from pneumonia.I don't believe that nicotine altered either of their thinking either one was a tenured professor at Adrian University and the other was the chief of a fire dept.I'm sorry that I don't buy into counseling be it alcohol,drugs,domestic violence,marital advice or whatever.I'm 63 and throughout my youthful years we didn't need a counselor to come to school when a classmate died,we didn't need counseling when we got all hyperactive and acted up in class,we didn't need counseling to tell us not to drink or do drugs we didn't really need it for anything because to me and most people my age our counselors were our parents.Listen to all the folks that have responded to this post many have said that at one point or another in their life they were users and through their own actions they were able to overcome the drugs or whatever they were hooked on and I suppose that one day if I seriously put my mind to it I could quit the damn cigarettes too-I hope.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Show me a person that says they can't/won't become addicted to especially opiates...and I'll show you someone who has absolutely no clue whatsoever on how opiates affect the body. The way opiates are designed to work on the body and the changes they make, especially in the brain, leaves no choice but to make the human body dependent on them with long term use.
You take opiate meds. , prescribed or otherwise, for a period of time and whether you want to believe in your mind or not...you've become addicted.
Try up and quitting them and your body will tell you.
You WILL go through certain withdrawals depending on the length of using time, the daily usage and the strength.
Might be just mental withdrawal(anxiety,depression, etc) or may be physical( diarrhea, muscle spasms,aches, pains, sweats,chills, vomiting, tremors etc) or may be both mental and physical.
Again, Just depends...
For those saying they'll never take the crap or will never become an addict...I hope you tell your Dr after back surgery or some other type of surgery with long term pain not to prescribe you any opiate based pain killers. Especially long term.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Harbor, you can do it bud. I have faith. I've quit like 4-5 times in my life lol. I keep making the mistake of picking it back up like I can control it. "Ohhh, I'll just have one ever once in a while". I guess I don't work that way. I've been off em probably 5 years now. There is life after cigarettes! All of those reasons you don't want to quit is just the drug talking.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

fastwater said:


> Show me a person that says they can't/won't become addicted to especially opiates...and I'll show you someone who has absolutely no clue whatsoever on how opiates affect the body. The way opiates are designed to work on the body and the changes, especially in the brain they make, leaves no choice but to make the human body dependent on them with long term use.
> You take opiate meds. , prescribed or otherwise, for a period of time and whether you want to believe in your mind or not...you've become addicted.
> Try up and quitting them and your body will tell you.
> You WILL go through certain withdrawals depending on the length of using time, the daily usage and the strength.
> ...


I dated a girl who could smoke cigs every once in a while, or every weekend for that matter but not touch em during the week. Never could wrap my mind around that. She was different though. lol....

I think what they are saying here is they aren't stupid enough to do them the first time. I guess they aren't stupid enough to get in an accident or have some other unfortunate situation which involves unavoidable long term use of said drugs.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

In reading about Ohio history you'll find reference to starting meetings with a calumet or "peace pipe" where tobacco was rare and precious.



> A prayer to the Great Spirit reported in *Col. Smith's* book shows the kind of animal food the Indian in Ohio was most anxious to obtain as well as his high estimation of tobacco. In the winter of 1757-58 Smith was with some Indians on their long winter's hunt. They made a bark canoe and started down the Darbey creek (then called the Olentangy) for the Scioto, but the water was too low in the creek and they were compelled to wait for a rain. The prayer of the chief made while they were waiting, was put into English words by Smith:
> "Grant that on this voyage we may frequently kill bears as they cross the Scioto and the Sandusky. Grant that we may kill plenty of turkeys along the banks to stew with our fat bear meat. Grant that rain may come to raise the Olentangy about two or three feet that we may pass safely down to the Scioto without danger to our canoe being wrecked on the rocks. And now, O Great Being, thou knowest how matters stand. Thou knowest I am a great lover of tobacco, and tho I know not when I may get any more, I now make a present of this, the last I have, unto thee as a free burnt offering. Therefore I expect thou wilt hear and grant these requests and I thy servant, will return the thanks and love for thy gift."
> *Col. Smith* records that in a few days the rains came and raised so that they safely reached the Scioto. The stock of furs secured on the hunt was taken down the Sandusky to the lake and disposed of to traders at Detroit.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Harbor, you can do it bud. I have faith. I've quit like 4-5 times in my life lol. I keep making the mistake of picking it back up like I can control it. "Ohhh, I'll just have one ever once in a while". I guess I don't work that way. I've been off em probably 5 years now. There is life after cigarettes! All of those reasons you don't want to quit is just the drug talking.


I am able to smoke cigars every now and then without having urges to to start smoking again. I was easy pack a day smoker for 20 years


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Been there,done that,never going back. Before I had kids I was quick drawl McGraw when it came to drugs. I'd try them all I was stupid. But it was when I had to take pain meds for a period of time before I got addicted to any drug. Opiate s are in a league of there own when it comes to drugs. There's almost as many people that would never try any "drugs" getting hooked to prescription pain pills as "druggys" getting hooked. Your church members,doctors,lawyers,teachers. I never new what addiction was till I tried kicking opiates. For this those that don't know,Google opiate vs. Any other drug out there.
I ended up down an awfull road and wasted 4 years of my life.
Luckily I have the best family in th world that stood behind me and helped me through some DARK times.
And now a awesome wife 2 awesome kids a kitten, my own house and 2 vehicals that remind me why I quit.
Now I suffer from chronic pain. From rheumatoid arthritis and a knee that needs replaced but I'm to young for the procedure( in my docs opinion.) Before I was diagnosed I had to go through 3 specialists be cause they only wanted to pump me full of pain pills. HahA. Not this time. Now that I know what happens .
Still to this day each doctor visit I'm asked if I want/Need pain pills.
It's an epidemic that I pray my children never have to go through.


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## burnsj5 (Jan 30, 2014)

Harbor Hunter said:


> I agree with some of the things you say and some I don't.First I don't believe that anybody in the beginning turns to drugs to cope or escape reality I'm sure that down the road those are reasons but not at the start.I think peer pressure is a huge reason why kids get started-they're at a party or just hanging out with friends and since everybody else is doing it and they don't want their friends thinking they're a nerd or whatever they go along with it.I think people that are hooked on the crap a little later on in life may become users because of stress or depression,who really knows why anybody does it,but in any event it's still their choice they are aware of what can and probably will happen if they continue abusing.Yes I know that I said I hate smoking and it's for a lot of reasons not just health and if and when I meet my demise it's on me and me alone.I totally disagree with the statement that smoking alters my thought process I have owned my own business for many years and I make all the calls that any CEO would and if I may boast a little-the company is very successful.Both of my grandfathers lived into their hundreds and both were what would be considered to be heavy smokers(over 3 packs a day)the one died 4 days after his 103rd birthday from an injury following a car accident the other died at 101 from pneumonia.I don't believe that nicotine altered either of their thinking either one was a tenured professor at Adrian University and the other was the chief of a fire dept.I'm sorry that I don't buy into counseling be it alcohol,drugs,domestic violence,marital advice or whatever.I'm 63 and throughout my youthful years we didn't need a counselor to come to school when a classmate died,we didn't need counseling when we got all hyperactive and acted up in class,we didn't need counseling to tell us not to drink or do drugs we didn't really need it for anything because to me and most people my age our counselors were our parents.Listen to all the folks that have responded to this post many have said that at one point or another in their life they were users and through their own actions they were able to overcome the drugs or whatever they were hooked on and I suppose that one day if I seriously put my mind to it I could quit the damn cigarettes too-I hope.


I don't mean to come at you about the smoking, I was just trying to use it as an example of some of the hypocrisy in your statements regarding addiction and drugs. Nicotine is a drug and we don't normally compare it to something as serious as abusing opiates but it does alter your mind, just not that significantly compared to other substances. How many smokers start and end their day with a smoke, oh yeah and after each meal too right? Just tobacco but seems to have a control on a lot of people. You also seem to have a lot of excuses and reasoning why you still smoke as your family members smoked and lived long successful lives, I hope you get the same opportunity. I've seen a lot in the hospitals I've worked who said the same thing. Again, I don't care that you smoke, if someone wants to enjoy a dip or cigarette, go for it, just trying to show the similarities of addiction in general, the denial, justification etc. Most addicts don't start with peer pressure, most of us have tried alcohol or marijuana and most of us aren't addicts. There's lots of reasons why addicts are addicts. Counseling/groups do work for some who are ready to change. There is research out there that shows things like cognitive behavior therapy can be effective. I've seen people come off the street homeless, close to death, thinking they have nothing to live for, and now have full time jobs, live a healthy life, and stop by from time to time saying thanks for saving their life.

Also, I work at a veterans facility. When I first started we saw and still do see a lot of Vietnam era guys so your thoughts on not needing counseling back in the day doesnt hold up. We are now seeing a lot more of the younger veterans which makes sense. I also work in a PTSD program and between the homeless/substance abuse program and PTSD I have heard enough disturbing stories to know there are things people go through that I don't know if I could deal with. Straight evil things if you believe in such a thing.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I don't think you have to be weak to try it the first time necessarily. We all try things for different reasons. I also don't think you have to be weak to become addicted. The drug is just that strong. People can think whatever they want. Calling someone weak certainly isn't going to make them any stronger.
> 
> Dovans, I don't know if I agree with the gene thing. Or addiciton being genetic. I had a whole family of alcoholics(all aunt/uncles dead now from it basically) yet myself or mom/dad never became one. I think that's just an excuse mostly myself. Justification. I haven't read many studies or anything on it either so.
> 
> I also don't agree that its a disease. A disease should be something organic originating from a foreign source not something you thrust upon yourself voluntarily.


http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26119
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/genes/

Just a few.... Did not read through them...


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## Seaturd (Apr 14, 2004)

I lost my old man to booze. His liver finally gave out and the resulting dump of ammonia into his bloodstream fried his brain. He went from a brilliant, educated (put himself thru school to a Masters degree in mech. engineering) individual to a babbling idiot because he couldn't give up his beloved bourbon.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I dated a girl who could smoke cigs every once in a while, or every weekend for that matter but not touch em during the week. Never could wrap my mind around that. She was different though. lol....
> 
> I think what they are saying here is they aren't stupid enough to do them the first time. I guess they aren't stupid enough to get in an accident or have some other unfortunate situation which involves unavoidable long term use of said drugs.


I worked with a fella that I became fairly close friends with. We ended up racing bikes together, fished together and in general, just hung out. For three yrs. if we went somewhere in the car, I wouldn't smoke cause he didn't. 
One night we stopped for a beer. Sitting at the bar, I had my smokes laying there and he reachs down, grabs one and lights up. 
When I said something to him, he said the only time he ever smoked was when he drank. He said the two just seemed to go hand n hand. 
Said he really liked the smell of a cig. when it was 1st lit.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

fastwater said:


> Show me a person that says they can't/won't become addicted to especially opiates...and I'll show you someone who has absolutely no clue whatsoever on how opiates affect the body. The way opiates are designed to work on the body and the changes, especially in the brain they make, leaves no choice but to make the human body dependent on them with long term use.
> You take opiate meds. , prescribed or otherwise, for a period of time and whether you want to believe in your mind or not...you've become addicted.
> Try up and quitting them and your body will tell you.
> You WILL go through certain withdrawals depending on the length of using time, the daily usage and the strength.
> ...


What they mean is they won't be dumb enough to try it the first time to become addicted. 

The medical issue, I can see.... Sometimes. A lot of times its an excuse. I was in a very bad car accident when I was in my early 20's. They had me on a morphine pump, and taking opiates like they were Tylenol in the hospital. They also prescribed me two different narcotic pain meds (percocet and oxycotin) when I was released. I ended up taking a few when it was really bad, but ultimately throwing most away. I felt the effects of addiction, but instead of letting it control me and take hold, I fought through it. Yea it hurt sometimes, but that's life. Pain is ok sometimes. 

My girlfriend was also in a horrible accident before we got together. She broke her back and currently has a 9 inch steel rod holding it together. Throughout her multiple surgeries and outpatient care, she was given various opiates. She still has pain, she probably always will. She holds down a full time job, and I've never seen her take anything more powerful than an advil. Even 7 months ago when she gave birth to our daughter, she refused to take any narcotic pain meds, even though she couldn't even have an epidural due to her rod fusing the vertebrae together where the needle needed to go. 

The point is that there are still choices. Someone mentioned their 85 year old mother who was battling cancer. That's an exception to the rule. They should have let that poor woman have whatever she wanted to ease her pain. 85 year old cancer patients aren't robbing or killing anyone for their fix. 

I will admit that in some cases doctors have to accept some of the blame. When a 19 year old seemingly healthy young adult walks into an ER and complains of back pain, they shouldn't be prescribed narcotics without being assessed by a specialist. 

On the same note, when a dr prescribes you a script of pain pills that say "take as needed for pain" that doesn't mean "take as often as you can to stay numb and feel zero pain". 

I was addicted to nicotine (Copenhagen) for 15 years. I knew it was bad, I knew my family didn't like it, I knew I shouldn't be doing it. I was weak. I made the choice to let it win. I knew I had it in me, but chose to make excuse after excuse not to quit. Finally 3 years ago this month, I made a choice to put it down and leave it down. No help, no program, no step down. Just threw my can in the trash and walked away. It wasn't easy, I still want it occasionally. It passes though. 

I know not everyone is wired the same and it's harder for some than others. The point is that it can be done once someone makes that personal choice to be a better person. That means no excuses and no passing the blame.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

beaver said:


> d oxycotin)
> 
> when I was released. I ended up taking a few when it was really bad, but ultimately throwing most away. I felt the effects of addiction, but instead of letting it control me and take hold, I fought through it. Yea it hurt sometimes, but that's life. Pain is ok sometimes.
> 
> I know not everyone is wired the same and it's harder for some than others. The point is that it can be done once someone makes that personal choice to be a better person. That means no excuses and no passing the blame.


I hear ya... lucky enough to recognize what it was I was feeling.. I got this feeling that I was going to be so F*D if didnt stop what I was doing immediately. Couple hundred bucks of white powder went out the window...

I sit here and think, dude, your brother has an addiction, Im like if you have no idea what an addiction is, you have no idea how hard it is. But, I've been sitting watching tv, and reading your posts, and it occurs to me that I have absolutely no idea what you and your family has had to go through with your brother. The pain, the heartache. The Loss. I have never experienced that side of the situation. How do you make the decision to say enough and then have to deal with that grief of having to make that decision. Has to be tough on you all. 
.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

Just remember. ...it's a sickness. If you truly love the person. ...you can't stop help. Personal experience. .....


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Dovans said:


> I am able to smoke cigars every now and then without having urges to to start smoking again. I was easy pack a day smoker for 20 years


Do you inhale em? I've never really smoked cigars but didn't think you inhaled which might not give you the dose of nicotine strong enough to hook you? I dunno.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> What they mean is they won't be dumb enough to try it the first time to become addicted.
> 
> The medical issue, I can see.... Sometimes. A lot of times its an excuse. I was in a very bad car accident when I was in my early 20's. They had me on a morphine pump, and taking opiates like they were Tylenol in the hospital. They also prescribed me two different narcotic pain meds (percocet and oxycotin) when I was released. I ended up taking a few when it was really bad, but ultimately throwing most away. I felt the effects of addiction, but instead of letting it control me and take hold, I fought through it. Yea it hurt sometimes, but that's life. Pain is ok sometimes.
> 
> ...


I've never seen a script of any opiate pain med. that just said "take as needed for pain".
I have seen 'take 4 a day as needed for pain'.
At any rate, the 'taking these meds. as needed' theory is great, but today it doesn't work that easy.
I'll give you an example... today, a person goes to a pain specialist. They get put on a script of Percs. @ 4/day as needed for pain. Two months later they go back to the Dr. and the patient gets a random drug screen. Which all opiate pain med. patients are subject to and get on a regular basis due to the known abuse. Now say patient hasn't felt the need the last few days to take anything and test no, or very,very little in their system. That can be taken one of two ways by the Dr. Dr. can believe the patient when he/she says they tested low cause they didn't need them the last couple days OR the Dr. thinks the patient is the normal addict that stuffed there months supply up their nose in the 1st couple weeks they got them and tested low cause they were out.
With the way things are today, I don't blame the Dr for thinking the later.
Anyways, depending on your script the Dr. knows what levels you should test at and if you don't, the Dr drops you as a patient.
I can see your point beaver about a patient regulating the pain meds. themselves. I did mine for better than 9 yrs. and never had an issue. But I never took the stuff till the pain was so bad I just couldn't stand it anymore. Never did take 4 in one day like the script called for even though the Dr. advised me to do so cause they were time released.
I haven't been to the Dr. in 4 yrs for my back because I won't risk having them in the house. Like your girlfriend, I eat Advil from time to time like M&M's , I stretch daily and try and stay in shape. I also have become very aware of my limitations and do my best to try and stay within them. The pain never goes away, just some days better then others.
The biggest thing I do is pray a lot. I know for a fact the power of heartfelt prayers and listening/heeding to Gods will. Seen it in action.
FWIW beaver, I can appreciate your sentiments towards your brother. Didn't have a relationship with mine for about 22yrs. due to his addictions and the fact I didn't want him around my kids. A long heartbreaking story I won't get into...
Thankfully, today he has been clean for about the last 7yrs. and talks to all the younger members of the family about addiction.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

burnsj5 said:


> I don't mean to come at you about the smoking, I was just trying to use it as an example of some of the hypocrisy in your statements regarding addiction and drugs. Nicotine is a drug and we don't normally compare it to something as serious as abusing opiates but it does alter your mind, just not that significantly compared to other substances. How many smokers start and end their day with a smoke, oh yeah and after each meal too right? Just tobacco but seems to have a control on a lot of people. You also seem to have a lot of excuses and reasoning why you still smoke as your family members smoked and lived long successful lives, I hope you get the same opportunity. I've seen a lot in the hospitals I've worked who said the same thing. Again, I don't care that you smoke, if someone wants to enjoy a dip or cigarette, go for it, just trying to show the similarities of addiction in general, the denial, justification etc. Most addicts don't start with peer pressure, most of us have tried alcohol or marijuana and most of us aren't addicts. There's lots of reasons why addicts are addicts. Counseling/groups do work for some who are ready to change. There is research out there that shows things like cognitive behavior therapy can be effective. I've seen people come off the street homeless, close to death, thinking they have nothing to live for, and now have full time jobs, live a healthy life, and stop by from time to time saying thanks for saving their life.
> 
> Also, I work at a veterans facility. When I first started we saw and still do see a lot of Vietnam era guys so your thoughts on not needing counseling back in the day doesnt hold up. We are now seeing a lot more of the younger veterans which makes sense. I also work in a PTSD program and between the homeless/substance abuse program and PTSD I have heard enough disturbing stories to know there are things people go through that I don't know if I could deal with. Straight evil things if you believe in such a thing.


 If you read what I said it was that I don't personally believe in rehabs/counseling programs-I never said that they don't work for some people,I'm sure they do.Unless smoking is a genetic flaw I don't do it because family members or anybody else does and I don't offer any excuses why I do it to the contrary I know it's bad for me and I wish every day I would've never started.I do not follow the rules of smoking-when I wake up before I go to bed after/during a meal after sex etc.pretty much it's just when the urge hit's me which unfortunately is way too often.I know several Vietnam vets also and the majority of them are addicted to one thing or another which considering what they went through is understandable but the tragic part of it is they're still using today if they never would've started,they obviously would still be here today-right and they wouldn't be hooked either.IMO you'll never be a junkie if you don't start it in the first place-regardless of your reasons.Like I said I agree with some of your points and others I don't no biggie and if I thought that you could do or say anything to me to get me off the nicotine I would've PM'ed you like ten minutes ago!


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Dovans said:


> I hear ya... lucky enough to recognize what it was I was feeling.. I got this feeling that I was going to be so F*D if didnt stop what I was doing immediately. Couple hundred bucks of white powder went out the window...
> 
> I sit here and think, dude, your brother has an addiction, Im like if you have no idea what an addiction is, you have no idea how hard it is. But, I've been sitting watching tv, and reading your posts, and it occurs to me that I have absolutely no idea what you and your family has had to go through with your brother. The pain, the heartache. The Loss. I have never experienced that side of the situation. How do you make the decision to say enough and then have to deal with that grief of having to make that decision. Has to be tough on you all.
> .


It isn't a easy decision, but it's a necessary one. There was way too many reasons for way too long to post here. It wasn't a decision that I made lightly or half heartedly.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

This is probably one of the most informative threads I've read in a long long time....


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Do you inhale em? I've never really smoked cigars but didn't think you inhaled which might not give you the dose of nicotine strong enough to hook you? I dunno.


You cant help but inhale somewhat... Not like smoking a cig though. Cigars do not have any chemicals in them. Like cigs. Whether or not that has anything to do with not wanting to smoke I cant say. Maybe thats why as well. Decent cigar is also going to cost you 7-10 bucks. So another reason not have it be habit forming. For some reason I get little excited around washington interns when I have a cigar...


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Saugeye Tom said:


> This is probably one of the most informative threads I've read in a long long time....


And civil.


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

The drug problem in our town, mainly Meth and Heroin, was a part of the reason I decided to retire instead of going into the DROP program.
The heroin problem isn't really hit and miss, it's everywhere and affecting people of all classes.
During the last 4 years or so on the job I probably saw at least 25 or so fatal OD's and God knows how many were saved by Narcan. When a bad batch would come into town the deaths would increase. Some of these doses were so lethal that the victim would still have the syringe in their arm!
I felt genuinely sorry for these people when this first became a problem because they knew very little about the drug and let's face it, people make bad decisions and no one sets out to become an addict. After that, the word got around and the dealers were cutting it with anything they could to increase their profits while not caring one damn bit about the lives they were affecting and the deaths they were causing. The new users definitely know the risks and yet continue to use and that makes no sense to me.
Lawmakers need to take this problem on and put new laws into place with much more harsher penalties that will be a real deterrent for dealers and those who manufacture these drugs. When caught users should be arrested and sentencing should involve mandatory, lock down rehab for a length of time that would be affective in ridding them of the habit.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> And civil.


listen to john prine for about an hour on youtube cause of this thread..


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

Many get hooked from a surgery or accident because oxy is used for pain. The patient builds a tolerance so the doctor ups the dose. Eventually the doctor has to cut them off. Street value of true oxy is 1 dollar per mg. It does not take long before the patient runs out of money. The next closest fix is heroin. Many go that route because of cost. 25 percent of first time users are hooked after thier first try. After that the drug controls them and the user will do anything to get thier fix. The drug completely consumes them. Heroin is a white middle class drug for kids who experiment with it. It is an epidemic. I have a friend who is an nurse who deals with over doses daily. It's not uncommon to treat a patient at the beginning of the shift, release the patient, and see them again over dose at the end of the shift.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

The $1/gram street price is for Percs or oxycodone.
Amazingly, non time released OxyContin is bringing up to $5/gram here in Ohio.

Here's an interesting read from the Cleveland Clinic:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2016/04/6-myths-about-painkillers/


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

I suffered for a few years with RSD (something you DO NOT want) in my left arm. Underwent 3 surgeries on left Ulnar Nerve. At first I was prescribed Oxycotin, Roxicontin and Neurontin. I destroyed the Rx for the pain meds and took the Neurontin. That stuff was probabally worse than the oxy. After a few days on that stuff I was seeing spiders crawl out of the walls and actually seeing and talking to people who had been dead for 20 years.(and that's no sh_t) I tossed that also. But what I found strange was I actually had 2 pain doctors tell me if I was not going to take the meds they prescribed to not come back to them. My union finally got me into a doctor that helped, with stallate nerve blocks and epidural shots and a tense unit.. I am sure if I had listened to those first doctors that today I would be hooked big time. In past 4 months I have had 2 surgeries for bladder cancer and still refuse their rx pain meds while in the hosp. I do like the other guy said gobble Advil like they are M&M's ..No way to prove my point but I would be willing to bet that half the addicts today is caused by doctors over prescribing.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

100% Agree with your assessment Slatebar.
We are groomed in this country to not question our Drs. After all, we are going to them because we aren't Drs. We put our total trust in them when it comes to our health and something being broke. With all this 'pain med.' prescribing abuse and the many 'pill mill' Drs. that have been busted, guess we all need to take a hard look at our own situations and maybe request non-addictive pain meds. if pain meds. are needed.
There is plenty of proof to what you are saying. Call most any rehab facility and talk to some counselors and they will tell you that a very high percentage of their clientele are people that became addicted through an injury/surgery of some sort in which further acute pain was expected and heavy, addictive pain meds were prescribed by a Dr. for long term. When the body became adjusted to that pain med. level(which is gonna happen)and the patient told their Dr. they were feeling more pain, the pain meds. were increased. No question.
This went on for yrs. Again, so long that many Drs. found it more lucrative to only want to deal with patience that had issues in which they could prescribe pain meds. for...and some of those 'issues' were a huge stretch.
I'll give you an example....I was having sinus issues causing labored breathing through my nose as well as headaches. I go to my family Dr. and he pokes around. He sets me up with an ear,nose,throat specialist.
I go to my appointment and since I'm a new patient, sit down and fill out all my info. including my (then) current meds.
I get back to my exam room and he pokes around and asked some questions. I leave his office with two scripts and an appointment for the following month. One script was an anti-inflammatory med. the other was a script for 90 Vicodine.
Now mind you, I was already on a script of Percs. for my back and that was noted on my patient info. sheet I filled out.
I decided to take the anti-inflammatory but didn't even get the Vicodine filled. I wasn't gonna go back to the guy but decided to do so just to see if he would write another script for pain meds. Surely in a month he had had time to read my patient info. and see I was on Percs. 
Well...if he read it,it didn't matter cause I left his office with the exact same scripts I left with the month before. 
I saved both the written scripts and when I went back to my family Dr. showed him. Naturally, he asked if I had noted on my med. info. sheet the meds. I was on. His response was that he didn't understand why he would prescribe them to me but would contact him about it. 
I told my Dr. that if the guy wasn't any more thorough then that that if I had anymore sinus issues, not to send me back to him again. 
This all happened before all the needed Fed. changes and most likely wouldn't happen today cause today, if I took that script Vicodine to my pharmacy and was already on Percs., my pharmacy most likely wouldn't fill it without talking to the Dr. 1st. 
Bottom line is...not only do we have the right to question our Drs., we're fools if we don't.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Do you inhale em? I've never really smoked cigars but didn't think you inhaled which might not give you the dose of nicotine strong enough to hook you? I dunno.


Good quality cigars are inhaled by many people. Swishers are inhaled all the time but for a different reason of course.


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## percidaeben (Jan 15, 2010)

FOSR said:


> All right, I'll toss this in: My late mother was a cancer survivor who also suffered from spinal stenosis (look that up). I used to organize her medications every week, including oxycodone and oxycontin pills and fentanyl patches.
> 
> Her regimen of medications varied with whatever doctor had her care at the time. Some would dope her up but one time when she was in the hospital a doctor looked at her medication schedule and put her on Narcan. I stood next to her hospital bed and watched her screaming in agony through withdrawl, at 85 years of age. I am not kidding. That was not pleasant..


Sorry you and your mother had to go something this awful


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

bobk said:


> Good quality cigars are inhaled by many people. Swishers are inhaled all the time but for a different reason of course.


Maccaduddo


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

There is a certain percentage of people who are immediately addicted to anything they try , genetic disposition has something to do with it. Then there are people who inadvertently get hooked on pain meds , this is not really the same as " recreational " users , though it could be. The drug problem that is so rampant lately is masking the mental health problem. Ive talked to people who get upset and say their drug addicted friend or relative don't have a mental health problem , they are healthy , normal , good people. My answer to that is , what would make a person willing to do this stuff when they already know the consequences ?....its not like they haven't been bombarded with the dangers and health risks of drug use , that has been taught very thoroughly in schools and media for many years now. What makes a person so confused that they will risk throwing their whole life away for a drug ?.....its very much a mental health problem , just like the shooting problem , society wont be able to fix it because we too often focus on the symptom and not the cause. If we cant get a handle on the mental health problem , the symptoms will persist. Drugs and guns aren't the problem , its so many mentally unstable people using them that is the problem. What are we lacking in society ?....why are so many people so depressed or desperate ?.....why are so many people willing to throw their life away ?.....what has happened to people ? Society is sick.....


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Pain meds killed my mother. Don't read further if you don't want gross details.

Pain meds paralyze the intestines. She would be constipated for days before she had a blowout, and then I would have to unplug the toilet. BTW more than once she would fall asleep on the toilet, and fall off. Once she cut her head on the corner of the counter and I had to be careful not to slip in her blood on the floor when I picked her up. I would clean the bathroom floor and find turds that were exactly like peach pits, hard and wrinkled with a sharp point at one end.

One of these pierced her intestinal wall and she died of blood poisoning. She was ready for it. She spent years in agony begging God to grant her death.

Well, not God, actually In Lithuanian religion there are two gods. One is Perkunas, like Odin, the hairy thunderer with a hammer, and then there's Dieva, a female figure who is more like Fortune who determines one's fate.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

I think the reason this thread is sparking so much interest is that so many have either experienced this first hand or have had, or have someone they love with this issue. It is my oldest son that is plagued with this. 
I think you shouldn't turn your back because I did early on. It didn't help. _Nothing _really helped except to let him know when he is at his worst that I will always call him my son.


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## glasseyes (Jan 28, 2012)

there are so many people this effects, and so many in different walks of life that have the problem. I know our church has been involved in our community and there are so many more places now a person can get help if they really want to.
I still blame a society that has forsaken God in everything in this day in age ,,so many want to blame someone else for the problem but deep down it all gos back to one thing. Just like a lot of other issues this country has. Drugs is one that hits all of us close to home just because so many are addicted ,but there are many more horrible things going on that are destroying this country also.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

Drugs have been a problem far longer than anything else that I know of. Wars have been fought over the control of the profits, the reasons are far more complex than just the money too.Power, Greed, and Evil.My first exposure to drugs was in Vietnam, there was a major problem throughout the my 23 months there. Smoking Pot was a given in most regions, however I saw that Opiates were more the preferred choice of hardcore drug users.Dirt cheap and readily available to any one. Most of these veterans left with an addiction that they couldn't get back home so easily, in reality, Veterans returned home to an ungrateful nation that didn't want to, nor try to help the mass return of young men, who was exposed to the tragedy of war.Either directly or indirectly involved in combat, just about every one saw the effects on not just soldiers, but civilians as well. The use of drugs for many of them was a self medicating method of trying to cope with the experience that changed their lives forever. I know this because I was/am one of those that returned to a place that after 4 years I didn't know any more. I consider myself to be lucky enough to get on with my life and my mixed up family. That's when I turned to alcohol and drugs, I was just numb to the life I left behind and trying to figure out what I was going to do for a living. I went to work in a steel mill, hell anyone can do that! It took a long time before I realized that what I was doing was going to take me to an early grave, After a while I think most people lost their concern for a generation that they were ashamed of. Like I said I am lucky or fortunate to quit after wasting too many years of stupidity. My life is not a great one, but a grateful one.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

James F said:


> How many people on here have been affected by the recent overdoses lately? My daughter in law lost her nephew to heroin and fentanyl, the people he was with drove around for two hours and abandoned the car at a gas station, they were caught and arrested.Four hours later a young girl died the same way, they dumped her at a hospital in Canton. I knew the young man, he was highly intelligent, but the drugs were something that he just couldn't get away from. It's a shame that today's youth is being led down a path of destruction by people who don't care about anyone, except the money.


It is like this, We can keep Cuban cagars out of the country, but we can not keep drugs out. Our Govt. knows this. Just follow the money. Sad, but true.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

You probably already know this but *DO NOT FLUSH MEDS* because the sewage treatment doesn't clean them out and they go to the streams that have, you know, fish and stuff.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

FOSR said:


> You probably already know this but *DO NOT FLUSH MEDS* because the sewage treatment doesn't clean them out and they go to the streams that have, you know, fish and stuff.


Interestingly enough, when my dad died last Oct., the Hospice nurse threw everything in the toilet. Mom said it was the first thing she did when she came into verify my dad was dead.(?) Then she called funeral home and made arrangements for the pick up of my dad. (Seems kind of weird typing this for some reason) I think it is still better then what my mom did/does.. She throws them in the back yard. Told her thats why she has so much wildlife in her back yard.. It is strange dealing with the depression era adults. Probably another thread...


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Here's a week of my mom's pills which I would set out usually on Sunday morning. This doesn't include the Fentanyl patches or the oxy 5mg pills for "breakout" pain episodes.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

Dovans said:


> Interestingly enough, when my dad died last Oct., the Hospice nurse threw everything in the toilet. Mom said it was the first thing she did when she came into verify my dad was dead.(?) Then she called funeral home and made arrangements for the pick up of my dad. (Seems kind of weird typing this for some reason) I think it is still better then what my mom did/does.. She throws them in the back yard. Told her thats why she has so much wildlife in her back yard.. It is strange dealing with the depression era adults. Probably another thread...


Lol....addicted wildlife...they keep coming back.....thanks for the chuckle


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

one3 said:


> It is like this, We can keep Cuban cagars out of the country, but we can not keep drugs out. Our Govt. knows this. Just follow the money. Sad, but true.


Well theres only so many makers/importers of cuban cigars. Can't say the same about heroin. We're effectively shutting down the importation of marijuana though by legalizing it. We don't have to import it anymore! 



FOSR said:


> Here's a week of my mom's pills which I would set out usually on Sunday morning. This doesn't include the Fentanyl patches or the oxy 5mg pills for "breakout" pain episodes.


Was it the cancer or stenosis that had her in so much pain? Poor thing  Someone really needs to address the whole "death with dignity" thing. Theres absolutely no reason to make someone suffer like that at the end of their lives. Sad.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

It was mainly the stenosis. For those who don't know, that's a form of arthritis where arthritic growths inside the vertebrae pinch the spinal column. It was causing major shooting pains up and down her legs. They cut open three of her vertebrae and scraped them out, but they warned us that the condition would come back in a few years and they were right.

She was a fighter, though. She'd be out in the garden pulling weeds in her walker (which I still have). Once she fell forward and went face-first into the day lilies.

She fell frequently. When I moved back into the house to care for her, I half-jokingly said I was listening for the thud. There was more than one thud.

Let me see if I can recall this correctly: some of her falls would injure her to the point of hospitalization. (edited to add, it is no fun standing in the driveway hearing a siren and knowing you are its destination)

According to the Medicare rules she would spend 72 hours in the hospital, then be released, sometimes to home, but usually to a nursing home. They would give her 90 days' worth of pain meds. But she would fall again in less time than that, and the whole routine would repeat. So we had a growing backlog of pain meds.

Those were handy. I really wish I could buy those little oxy 5mg pills over the counter. They were perfect for when I'd pull a muscle or especially when I had a body flu that made every joint hurt. But eventually the stash ran out.

What about anti-depressants? She had those too and I looked them up online (I think it was Lyrica). The list of possible side effects made me toss them out without trying them.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

I was on Lyrical, and when the rx expired I went through withdrawals that was a living nightmare, it lasted for about 3 weeks. It helped but I wasn't told about weaning off of them. The thing about this drug was that I didn't feel dependent on them, not even when going through the withdrawals.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

Some of the drug commercials rattle off such long lists of possible side effects like new or worsening death, and for what, a runny nose? Do not drive or operate machinery until you learn to drive while blind. See your doctor if you experience homicidal tendencies. In rare cases, spontaneous combustion has been reported.


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Ya ive herd withdrawls from antidepressants can be awfull as well even causing seizures at times.
One of my friends that died from oding was mixing opiates with benzos(valume,zanax,ect). It can and will shut down your respiratory system when mixed together.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

James F said:


> I was on Lyrical, and when the rx expired I went through withdrawals that was a living nightmare, it lasted for about 3 weeks. It helped but I wasn't told about weaning off of them. The thing about this drug was that I didn't feel dependent on them, not even when going through the withdrawals.


That's the sad part about it...most Drs. don't tell the patience the downside of the meds. they prescribe. There is some kind of 'side effect' to most every med. we stick in our body. Even over the counter meds. such as aspirin, Advil etc.
Again, we simply *'HAVE TO' ask the Dr. more questions. *
Especially if we know we are of an 'addictive' nature.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

You also have to dig further and research yourself. Half of those side effects are just listed to cover the company's arse. They list 50 side effects and if you Google further, you'll usually find that only a couple of those have actually occurred in enough numbers to actually be a side effect of that drug. 

Regardless, im a firm believer in less meds the better. I don't mind a little pain, and even if it's a lot of pain, I don't want the meds to make it stop, just become bearable. 

I was on Lexapro for a little while around the time my divorce was going on and my stressful job was getting to me. I never really noticed a difference good or bad. When I stopped, I didn't notice any withdrawal symptoms either. Maybe the Dr gave me a placebo.... lol


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> You also have to dig further and research yourself. Half of those side effects are just listed to cover the company's arse. They list 50 side effects and if you Google further, you'll usually find that only a couple of those have actually occurred in enough numbers to actually be a side effect of that drug.
> 
> Regardless, im a firm believer in less meds the better. I don't mind a little pain, and even if it's a lot of pain, I don't want the meds to make it stop, just become bearable.
> 
> I was on Lexapro for a little while around the time my divorce was going on and my stressful job was getting to me. I never really noticed a difference good or bad. When I stopped, I didn't notice any withdrawal symptoms either. Maybe the Dr gave me a placebo.... lol


Agree beaver. Unless someone is a complete moron and just chooses not to face reality when looking in the mirror, most know by the time we're in our mid 20's whether or not we tend to be of an addictive nature. 
If we're honest with ourselves we shouldn't be a bit bashful when it comes to talking to our Dr. and telling them we have a tendency to become addicted so the Dr. can remember that when writing out our script. Often, for many addictive form of meds. there is a non (or less)addictive form as well.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Just so you all know the percocet and oxycotin (and Tylox) are all the same opiate. It is oxycodone. Percocet is just a tradename.

Just found out last week doctor in rehab gave my M-I-L Dilaudid for pain. She isn't in any pain. That is for late stage chronic cancer pain....Took that crap away right now. She came back from her hallucinating, sit in the dark all day, crazy state of mind in about 2 days....


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

It is a sad state of affairs. When we can all jump in with personal examples of friends, family and ourselves that have been "helped" by addictive drugs. You would think that according to the Hippocratic oath your Dr. would tell you taking an addictive substance is a bad idea and help you find alternatives. They surely must know about addiction and the potential for ruining someone's life. Or maybe they don't watch TV...
I think these days they are just too busy in their patient factories to take the time and really give a crap. I suppose it boils down to greed again....


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Lewzer said:


> Just so you all know the percocet and oxycotin (and Tylox) are all the same opiate. It is oxycodone. Percocet is just a tradename.
> 
> Just found out last week doctor in rehab gave my M-I-L Dilaudid for pain. She isn't in any pain. That is for late stage chronic cancer pain....Took that crap away right now. She came back from her hallucinating, sit in the dark all day, crazy state of mind in about 2 days....


Partially true, BUT not totally correct.

Percocet is not just a 'trade name' and is not exactly the same as oxycontin.
While Perc. naturally contains oxycodone the same as OxyContin, there are other compounds in Perc. such as acetaminophen that OxyContin does not contain. The amount of acetaminophen can vary in Perc. depending on the script.
Incidentally, Vicodine as well as a few other pain meds. contain oxycodone as well but their strength and their makeup separates them from one another.

The way you are correct is the fact that all these meds contain oxycodone. Which of course is an opiate(nothing but man made heroin). And all are addicting due to the fact that there is nothing in any of them that stops the oxycodone from doing its job and attaching itself to the billions of pain receptors throughout our body, including in the brain. Of course, instilling such a compound would be counter productive and would block the med. from doing its job in the 1st place.

Which brings up a few other points worth mentioning about how pain meds work and our pain receptors. Naturally, we take pain meds for pain. But when we take these meds., the opiate doesn't zero itself in on the pain receptors involved with the particular pain but attaches itself to all the millions of pain receptors throughout the body. All of them. Which is the reason one of the side affects of pain meds. is low sex drive.
Theres a section of the brain that produces a natural pain killer(endorphins) and dispenses it as needed for physical as well as psychological pain. The body being very efficient, if our pain receptors are always full of an opiate(artificial) pain med. and there's a very long period of time in which there is no call for the endorphins the brain produces, the brain just stops producing the endorphins altogether. When that happens and the person stops taking the pain med., that's where the severe withdrawal symptoms come from. The scary part about this is with long term addicts that go long enough without this part of the brain functioning, sometimes that part of the brain never recoupes and starts reproducing the natural endorphins. Sometimes it restarts but never produces as it's supposed to and sometimes it fully recovers. Just a roll of the dice.
And FWIW, different drugs attach themselves longer to pain receptors then others. A long term cocaine addicts system can be cleaned out a lot faster then an opiate addict. But the new wave suboxone, the way it's made to hang on to the pain receptors even longer than regular opiate based pain meds takes even longer to rid out of the system then opiates.
The reason I stated earlier that suboxone is quickly becoming the next over prescribed med. with side effects of its own that is gonna bite us in the butt.

I had an Uncle that was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Dr. gave him about a yr. with chemo/rad. and about 4-6mos. without it. Uncle opted to forgo treatment. Told the Dr. he wanted to go down to his cabin on the lake and spend the remainder of his time there. He asked the Dr. to promise him to give him enough meds to keep him out of as much pain as possible. The Dr. agreed.


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## glasseyes (Jan 28, 2012)

Lewzer said:


> Just so you all know the percocet and oxycotin (and Tylox) are all the same opiate. It is oxycodone. Percocet is just a tradename.
> 
> Just found out last week doctor in rehab gave my M-I-L Dilaudid for pain. She isn't in any pain. That is for late stage chronic cancer pain....Took that crap away right now. She came back from her hallucinating, sit in the dark all day, crazy state of mind in about 2 days....


I have had Dilaudid, it was for kidney stones at ER , it was only thing that took pain away. I never had any ill effects from it ,I know the pain was horrible and within a couple seconds after they put it in IV, they could have cut my arm off and I probably would not have felt it. That stuff is one powerful pain killer


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I've taken Vicodine after getting my wisdom teeth taken out. I was only on it for a week, but felt the pull of my body wanting more after I stopped taking it. I weaned myself off of it, but I had to tell myself that you don't really need it and took over the counter pain meds for a few days to keep from having to take more Vicodine. I may have become addicted if I had to take it longer.

I think most doctors just follow recommended guidelines in their medical books. These recommendations are written by medical boards that are being advised and paid off by drug companies. Every new drug they can bring to market is worth millions! 

Every patient is different and only you can know what your body can handle. Unfortunately, with addictive drugs, you don't know if you can handle the withdrawal from them until you have to stop taking them! After reading this I'm going to be more aware of what doctors are prescribing and how addictive they are. I wish I new more about natural medicines that might be just as effective like Ginseng and such.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

After having heart surgery, I cannot take any over the counter pain and cold meds,I have been fortunate to not get sick.And I have had to just deal with the pain from my injury, anyway most pain meds don't don't much for me. I just saw on the news tonight about the Heroin epidemic and that there aren't enough rehab facilities to handle the number of people who are waiting up to 16 weeks to get help. And I am just now learning about 3 more young people who have been using it, I never would have known about this, if my son hadn't told me, that he was offered to do some, he said no way and that he wanted nothing to do with them every again. Unfortunately he works with one of them. He told me that he wanted to say something to the place he works , but if he does they would fire him and make things worse for the young man. My son is very conflicted about this, he works at a very prestigious country club. I told him he could talk with one of the Detectives in charge of security about this and let him deal with it. We'll find out tomorrow, I've met the detective before and he was very discrete about the way he handled another issue. As we all know how sensitive this can be, let alone the difficulties involving addiction. I am hoping for some good news about this 17 year old.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

It will help both the company and the addicted


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

I am not sure what the Defective said to the young man, but he apologized to my son. And also took the detective to his home to meet his parents, evidently he has a good home life. My son had given him a ride home a while ago. And the neighborhood is not a place to hang out in. My son feels he just got caught up with some of the few people in the area. I guess they haven't lived there very long. He goes back to work in a few days. He works part time and wants to transfer to a better school system. The other two people are going to the same school and are leaning on him. I think he is lucky to have some people who care and can actually help make a difference.This usually not the case these days.His parents are in shock, especially after going to the school and learning that this is common.And having several armed police and metal detectors every where. I had this same experience with the Boston inner city schools, it was so bad that the teachers where behind a screen and plexiglass! ! And that was twenty years ago. I wasn't quite prepared for this, after all I went to a private Catholic school and four years in the military and combat veteran. Something is definitely wrong with This picture.I was there for a job interview, I told them no thanks I'm liable to kill some of them and I was only there for a few hours. Is this how most of the public school systems are?


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

I cut my mother off of booze, or at least I stopped letting her pour her own.

I grew up with vodka in the freezer. We would have cold shots beginning with lunch. I have a bottle in my freezer now.

Mom would pull the bottle out and pour a glass for herself. One day I watched her shaking hand as she poured and I realized she wasn't able to measure how much she poured. Not good with her long list of meds. So I stopped keeping the vodka in the freezer and I would let her have a glass of wine or something like that once in a while.


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## icetester (Feb 16, 2015)

Roscoe said:


> Last year in Afghanistan over 5,500 tons of Opium were produced. Heroin is made from Opium.
> 
> The U.S. military has allowed poppy cultivation to continue in order to appease farmers and government officials involved with the drug trade who might otherwise turn against the Afghan Karzai government in Kabul. Fueling both sides, in fact, the opium and heroin industry is both a product of the war and an essential source for continued conflict. So who ya going to blame?
> 
> ...


This....why did we go to Afghanistan again?


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## WalleyeGuy (Apr 9, 2004)

letem keep on shooting up.
Pretty soon they will all be dead and gone.
No one left to sell the drug to.
Problem self solved.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Gottagofishn said:


> It is a sad state of affairs. When we can all jump in with personal examples of friends, family and ourselves that have been "helped" by addictive drugs.


True that! My BIL is the property manager for a large mental health facility in northern Trumbull Co. His #1 assistant was an admittee and a convicted felon, but seemed like he was getting his life in order just a couple months shy of completing his probation period. He didn't show up for work for two days, so my BIL went to his apartment that was rented to him cheap by the facility, and found him dead on the kitchen floor of a heroin overdose.

Less than a month later, in the middle of the night there's the screech of tires on pavement and a "thump" right in front of the house. Could be just another deer being hit, but my BIL goes out to investigate. He found the truck driver wanting to gouge his own eyes out! Turns out an admittee just walked out in front of a speeding semi, turned to face the truck and spread his arms! My BIL found his splattered body in the roadside ditch. The toxicology report showed he was high on on some opiate, I forget which.

More to the point, and not involving opiates, is my Brother. He likes to say he never suffered from such poor health until he got such a great health care plan! He works for a state (of Ohio) university. Once he got his full health bennies he decided to go get a checkup. The doctor found that his BP and cholesterol were "slightly" elevated, surprise, surprise, and immediately set about writing scrips! My Brother followed the regimen, and his health went into decline.

I don't blame the Doc or big pharma only. We are all responsible for our own health care. One night, having coffee after dinner at my Mom's house, my Brother was having such trouble just raising the cup to his lips that I had to say something! I'd noticed this, little by little, over time. But this time it was really bad. He said it might be the meds he was on. I told him, "STOP TAKING THEM!" The TV ads for the crap tell you that if you experience muscle pain or weakness to discontinue use immediately! My brother didn't even bother to read the literature that comes with the drugs.

So now, he's a Type 2 Diabetic, weighs way more than he should, and has a face as red as pickled beet! Plus, he now seems determined to drink himself to death!

Another instance involves a friend who went in for a prostate exam, as men our age are supposed to do. His prostate was "slightly" enlarged, again surprise, surprise, and again the Doc went to write some scrips! My buddy said that he'd been told that taking saw palmetto and drinking cranberry juice would do just as much good as taking drugs. The Doc said the following, "Well, MY JOB THESE DAYS IS BASICALLY TO PRESCRIBE DRUGS. The palmetto and the juice might not work quite as well, but they certainly won't do you any harm."

What a stunning admission! "MY JOB THESE DAYS IS BASICALLY TO PRESCRIBE DRUGS"!

FWIW, my Mom died at 86 and took NO scrip drugs! My aim is to do the same. I figure if my life has to come from a pill bottle, maybe it's time to check out!


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Was wondering if anyone reads the obits in the newspaper these days. There are usually 2-3 and sometimes even more young people who "died suddenly" or "died unexpectedly" every Sunday. There were two in Akron's paper yesterday. Sad


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I live in a small town, and my dad owns and operates a funeral home and monument company that I work at, so I hear about all of the local deaths and circumstances. 

However, I do read the Columbus dispatch as well and there are always several young entries. There are more obits in a single issue of the dispatch than there are in a month of my local paper though.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

beaver said:


> I live in a small town, and my dad owns and operates a funeral home and monument company that I work at, so I hear about all of the local deaths and circumstances.
> 
> However, I do read the Columbus dispatch as well and there are always several young entries. There are more obits in a single issue of the dispatch than there are in a month of my local paper though.


That is one job I do not think I could do...


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

It's all about perspective. It's the last good thing you can do for someone.


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## kickinbass (May 25, 2009)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I don't think you have to be weak to try it the first time necessarily. We all try things for different reasons. I also don't think you have to be weak to become addicted. The drug is just that strong. People can think whatever they want. Calling someone weak certainly isn't going to make them any stronger.
> 
> Dovans, I don't know if I agree with the gene thing. Or addiciton being genetic. I had a whole family of alcoholics(all aunt/uncles dead now from it basically) yet myself or mom/dad never became one. I think that's just an excuse mostly myself. Justification. I haven't read many studies or anything on it either so.
> 
> I also don't agree that its a disease. A disease should be something organic originating from a foreign source not something you thrust upon yourself voluntarily.


It is absolutely not a disease or genetic. A disease is caused by an abnormality or alteration in genetic material or something such as bacteria or a virus invading the body, not a person voluntarily putting drugs in their body (I realize some addicts feel that it isn't voluntary and I truly understand that it is difficult, but the fact is that it is voluntary). Genetics are definitely not it bc our genetic material is determined at the point of your conception and is unaffected by drugs in any way. Yes, a baby can become dependent on drugs and be affected by them in the womb if the mother is ignorant enough to put her baby in that situation, but still the drug is voluntarily put into the system by the mother who is responsible for both of their lives.

I feel for addicts and know that it can be a hard thing to overcome and wish them well IF THEY SEEK HELP. If not then I have no sympathy, their choice. If they are thieving lowlifes, then the world is better off without them anyway. It takes a great deal of mental strength to overcome the physical and mental addiction of drugs, and unfortunately the mentally strong are usually not the ones in the situation in the first place (again, usually)


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

It absolutely CAN BE genetic! Sometimes, for whatever reason, it can/will skip a generation. If you have not researched this issue, you should not make profound statements about it. Recently two 40 yr old acquaintances of ours(friends of my kids from school) were found in an apartment, so badly decomposed it was hard to identify who was who, dead from overdose. One of them was extremely intelligent/perhaps brilliant!, and very capable of making "good decisions"! But once they "experiment" with drugs/alcohol at an early age, the odds are greatly stacked against them from a life of being drug free! IMO, it is up to their parents to keep them away from any situations where they can be exposed. And no, sadly I have no idea how this can be accomplished!


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

c. j. stone said:


> It absolutely CAN BE genetic! Sometimes, for whatever reason, it can/will skip a generation. If you have not researched this issue, you should not make profound statements about it. Recently two 40 yr old acquaintances of ours(friends of my kids from school) were found in an apartment, so badly decomposed it was hard to identify who was who, dead from overdose. One of them was extremely intelligent/perhaps brilliant!, and very capable of making "good decisions"! But once they "experiment" with drugs/alcohol at an early age, the odds are greatly stacked against them from a life of being drug free! IMO, it is up to their parents to keep them away from any situations where they can be exposed. And no, sadly I have no idea how this can be accomplished!


They were capable, but they didn't do it. They made a poor decision. As a parent, I know I'll never be able to keep my kids from being exposed to such things in today's society. If you think it's possible, you're either sadly mistaken or you have a dungeon in the basement. However, as a parent I can make sure that I teach my kids right from wrong and prepare them to handle such situations properly.


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## cane pole (Nov 27, 2011)

I'll probably be perceived as someone who doesn't care, but I do agree with kickinbass to a large extent. What I would like to know, the media keeps talking about the use, and the expense of the drug that is given to people (addict's) that " brings them back" from an overdose. Is that expense burden put on the tax payer? I know it is available for people to buy at some pharmacy's but I wonder how many people have it on hand in case, or are they just relying on the first responders to get there in time and let someone else save them. The government waste so much money, with welfare, food stamp cards, that are being misused,that at least most of the time there are kids involved and it seems in some cases not to be popular, but ok, but to spend money to save someone who repeatedly over dose's? I don't agree with that. To me it seems like that money, whether tax payer or community could be spent on more productive things. A drug addict I won't sign up for that, willingly.


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## Flannel_Carp (Apr 7, 2014)

cane pole said:


> I'll probably be perceived as someone who doesn't care, but I do agree with kickinbass to a large extent. What I would like to know, the media keeps talking about the use, and the expense of the drug that is given to people (addict's) that " brings them back" from an overdose. Is that expense burden put on the tax payer? I know it is available for people to buy at some pharmacy's but I wonder how many people have it on hand in case, or are they just relying on the first responders to get there in time and let someone else save them. The government waste so much money, with welfare, food stamp cards, that are being misused,that at least most of the time there are kids involved and it seems in some cases not to be popular, but ok, but to spend money to save someone who repeatedly over dose's? I don't agree with that. To me it seems like that money, whether tax payer or community could be spent on more productive things. A drug addict I won't sign up for that, willingly.


"It costs between $20-$40 dollars for a full naloxone kit, which includes everything a person would need to reverse an overdose."

Source: http://stopoverdoseil.org/assets/naloxone-fact-sheet.pdf


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## Nightcrawler666 (Apr 17, 2014)

cane pole said:


> I'll probably be perceived as someone who doesn't care, but I do agree with kickinbass to a large extent. What I would like to know, the media keeps talking about the use, and the expense of the drug that is given to people (addict's) that " brings them back" from an overdose. Is that expense burden put on the tax payer? I know it is available for people to buy at some pharmacy's but I wonder how many people have it on hand in case, or are they just relying on the first responders to get there in time and let someone else save them. The government waste so much money, with welfare, food stamp cards, that are being misused,that at least most of the time there are kids involved and it seems in some cases not to be popular, but ok, but to spend money to save someone who repeatedly over dose's? I don't agree with that. To me it seems like that money, whether tax payer or community could be spent on more productive things. A drug addict I won't sign up for that, willingly.


???? Burden on the taxpayer? Seriously? So, let me get this straight, you would rather that $30 go towards something OTHER than saving someone's life? Devaluation of life at its finest right there. THAT is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 

Since you brought it up though...how many times have you thought about your tax dollars going to waste when the EMS comes out and picks up a heart attack victim and takes them in to save their life? Or maybe even a second or third time? Even though they continue to sit on their butt, eat junk and not exercise? (Hmmmm, not much different than drug addiction at all if you think about it.) Answer: NEVER. Why? Because they get billed for it like any other healthcare service. Let's just say that "the taxpayer" does get "burdened" with that bill...you wouldn't be willing to give up a couple of pennies to save someone's life? What if that one overdose they had was enough to open their eyes and seriously seek treatment for their addiction? Shame on you!

This past Saturday, I woke up to find out that a very good friend of mine's younger brother (27yrs old and also an old friend of mine) died of an overdose Friday night. If I had the choice between letting him die or shelling out the money to bring him back, to alleviate the pain and suffering his family is going through right now, I would give all the money I had...


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> They were capable, but they didn't do it. They made a poor decision. As a parent, I know I'll never be able to keep my kids from being exposed to such things in today's society. If you think it's possible, you're either sadly mistaken or you have a dungeon in the basement. However, as a parent I can make sure that I teach my kids right from wrong and prepare them to handle such situations properly.


...and then pray everyday that when the time comes when that child is put into 'said' situation, they handle it wisely. There is just no guarantee that's going to happen though. Over the yrs. I've watched some good, talented kids that came from excellent families and had very good parents go sideways. Some of them recovering, many of them not. And some of them now gone.
IMO, one of the biggest mistakes a parent can make is having the 'my child would never do that' attitude.
There are literally thousands of examples in which the parents of a child that has been a great kid, good in school, athletic etc.etc.,and never been a problem for mom and dad gets busted with drugs or overdoses and the 1st thing out of the parents mouth is " someone drugged my child". After the bust Still yet an attitude of denial cause the parent themselves just can't accept that their little angel is willfully doing drugs. If these parents ever do accept reality, they go through a cycle of blaming themselves. Shame that their child is on drugs is usually the next step and where big mistakes are made by the parents cause they try and hide the fact and deal with it within the family unit rather than getting the kid the professional help they need. After all, what will the family friends think if they know 'johnny ' is a pill head. 

Often, the fact that little Johnny is on drugs has nothing to do with his parents or the way he was raised.

It has everything to do with the fact that just like it has been since the beginning of time, the best raised kids are not always gonna follow mom and dad's advice and are not always gonna make the best decisions when they're out with friends and not under supervision. The huge difference is, unlike yrs ago when we sneaked and smoked cigs, a joint or drank alcohol, today's choice is drugs are drugs that can hook ya with just one experience. And they are so commonplace and as easy to get as buying gas at the gas station. Too, when someone 1st starts doing something like percocets, Vicodin etc. I guarantee, unless you see them do it, you won't know. They will function normally everyday at first. Most often, the tell tail signs won't happen till its to late and they are addicted.

In short, we as parents obviously have a responsibility to raise our kids the best we can and to be vigilant in what they are doing. We also have the responsibilty of educating them to the risks involved in doing drugs. But all too often, the child gets the attitude that ' I won't become addicted' or 'I'll never overdose'...not me, I'm stronger then that...or I'm too cool.
Then you talk to their parents and they have the 'not my little Johnny' attitude.

Wonder where their kid got his 'won't happen to me ' attitude?

IMO, the best things a parent can do with their kids to combat drugs are....EDUCATION,EDUCATION,EDUCATION....PRAY,PRAY,PRAY.

Lastly, anyone thinking they have the sure fired method of assuring that even the best of raised kids wont ever fall victim to becoming an addict, I hope you are teaching this method to the world. You are have come up with a plan that countless professionals have failed to do. This current opiate epidemic has proven not to discriminate between age, life status or gender. 
You're worth millions...


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree fastwater, my useless brother is a perfect example. 


Nightcrawler, i would rather the $30 go to a starving person than save the life of a Junkie who made that choice.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

post deleted


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## glasseyes (Jan 28, 2012)

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/24/health/elephant-tranquilizer-carfentanil-heroin/
So now there is something more to worry about. I seen this on National news last night and they were talking about Ohio, and doctors in Ohio, this new drug in Heroin is 10,000 times stronger than the normal pain killers they have been adding and this is very alarming . And I guess not that hard to get.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

beaver said:


> I agree fastwater, my useless brother is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> Nightcrawler, i would rather the $30 go to a starving person than save the life of a Junkie who made that choice.



Wow.... You are hard core sir.


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## Nightcrawler666 (Apr 17, 2014)

beaver said:


> I agree fastwater, my useless brother is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> Nightcrawler, i would rather the $30 go to a starving person than save the life of a Junkie who made that choice.


I can agree with that Beaver. You are most definitely right. If, it were a choice between the two and you had to decide, of course, feed the hungry, cure the sick and help the needy. Let's be honest here though, it isn't a matter of choice. People starve, people overdose and people who need the help most, tend not to get it. While at the same time, said tax dollars are being misallocated and spent on frivolous things that do nothing to solve real life problems.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

People aren't starving in this country. If they are, they are doing it wrong.


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## Flannel_Carp (Apr 7, 2014)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> People aren't starving in this country. If they are, they are doing it wrong.


You'd be surprised how many kids get sent to school in the morning with no breakfast and the same pair of clothes they've been wearing for a week.

There are people starving in the country that don't have a choice in the matter.

Not that it's relevant to this topic, just your post.


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## glasseyes (Jan 28, 2012)

this post is taking a direction I was going to bring up earlier but thought not to. Its the change in culture this country has been taking over years and years now and it just keeps getting worse and worse. I don't care what others think or say I'm old enough now to see how things have evolved in the US and my mind is made up. The more that God is taken from in this country and his word is not taken as a way to live and raise a family by things will only get worse.
There has been a time not to long ago I can remember we still had prayer in the morning school, ( public school ), said the pledge, also.
There are so many things that one can put blame on or blame people for things gone wrong, but I will fall back to what I said and stand behind it for any one bad thing going on in this country right now.


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## Nightcrawler666 (Apr 17, 2014)

glasseyes said:


> this post is taking a direction I was going to bring up earlier but thought not to. Its the change in culture this country has been taking over years and years now and it just keeps getting worse and worse. I don't care what others think or say I'm old enough now to see how things have evolved in the US and my mind is made up. The more that God is taken from in this country and his word is not taken as a way to live and raise a family by things will only get worse.
> There has been a time not to long ago I can remember we still had prayer in the morning school, ( public school ), said the pledge, also.
> There are so many things that one can put blame on or blame people for things gone wrong, but I will fall back to what I said and stand behind it for any one bad thing going on in this country right now.


Heyzeus....really?


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## cane pole (Nov 27, 2011)

Nightcrawler666 said:


> ???? Burden on the taxpayer? Seriously? So, let me get this straight, you would rather that $30 go towards something OTHER than saving someone's life? Devaluation of life at its finest right there. THAT is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
> 
> Since you brought it up though...how many times have you thought about your tax dollars going to waste when the EMS comes out and picks up a heart attack victim and takes them in to save their life? Or maybe even a second or third time? Even though they continue to sit on their butt, eat junk and not exercise? (Hmmmm, not much different than drug addiction at all if you think about it.) Answer: NEVER. Why? Because they get billed for it like any other healthcare service. Let's just say that "the taxpayer" does get "burdened" with that bill...you wouldn't be willing to give up a couple of pennies to save someone's life? What if that one overdose they had was enough to open their eyes and seriously seek treatment for their addiction? Shame on you!
> 
> This past Saturday, I woke up to find out that a very good friend of mine's younger brother (27yrs old and also an old friend of mine) died of an overdose Friday night. If I had the choice between letting him die or shelling out the money to bring him back, to alleviate the pain and suffering his family is going through right now, I would give all the money I had...


Anyone can have a heart attack, fat,fit,or not fit, but everything I've been hearing is try it once, you could become an addict. I would not put anyone who has a heart attack in the same class as a drug addict junkie. Devaluation of life, why do we have to keep putting up with robberies, burglaries, and people just in fear for there life, just BC someone wants to take what's yours and buy dope. That's the problem, devaluation of life you say, why is the bad guys life worth more than normal law abiding citizen's. I have no sympathy for drug addicts, but if I'm confronted, or catch someone stealing from me, I'll make sure I ask if there an addict before I devalue his or her life.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Nightcrawler666 said:


> ???? Burden on the taxpayer? Seriously? So, let me get this straight, you would rather that $30 go towards something OTHER than saving someone's life? Devaluation of life at its finest right there. THAT is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
> 
> Since you brought it up though...how many times have you thought about your tax dollars going to waste when the EMS comes out and picks up a heart attack victim and takes them in to save their life? Or maybe even a second or third time? Even though they continue to sit on their butt, eat junk and not exercise? (Hmmmm, not much different than drug addiction at all if you think about it.) Answer: NEVER. Why? Because they get billed for it like any other healthcare service. Let's just say that "the taxpayer" does get "burdened" with that bill...you wouldn't be willing to give up a couple of pennies to save someone's life? What if that one overdose they had was enough to open their eyes and seriously seek treatment for their addiction? Shame on you!
> 
> This past Saturday, I woke up to find out that a very good friend of mine's younger brother (27yrs old and also an old friend of mine) died of an overdose Friday night. If I had the choice between letting him die or shelling out the money to bring him back, to alleviate the pain and suffering his family is going through right now, I would give all the money I had...


 I think the person "devaluating" life is the junkie-not the person who doesn't want to have to fund the money to save the useless junkies butt time after time.I have to say this again everybody,every single person who does heroin or meth including first timers know beforehand that it can and will kill them and I should pity them? Our newspaper headline today is about the over 3,000 OD's in Ohio,the OD's are a major talking point on countless TV and radio talk shows schools and churches also constantly warn people against taking drugs and family and friends warn people not to abuse drugs or you'll become another statistic so there you go NOBODY is misinformed on what the dangers are but yet some people think we should all be willing to be taxed to pay for recovery drugs for these losers-not me.If a person put a loaded gun up against his head and pulled the trigger but somehow managed to survive but was in a coma why should anybody want to help foot the bill hoping they may recover because if that person did recover the reasons that led them to shoot their selves in the first place would still be there and most likely since they wanted to die in the first place they would do it again-wasting all that money that was spent on helping somebody(like a drug addict)who didn't really want help in the first place.Any person who by their own accord swallows a pill or sticks a needle in their arm isn't asking for help anyway the only person who can help them is themselves and hopefully a lot more of them will start doing so once they realize that yes this could happen to me.


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## Nightcrawler666 (Apr 17, 2014)

cane pole said:


> Anyone can have a heart attack, fat,fit,or not fit, but everything I've been hearing is try it once, you could become an addict. I would not put anyone who has a heart attack in the same class as a drug addict junkie. Devaluation of life, why do we have to keep putting up with robberies, burglaries, and people just in fear for there life, just BC someone wants to take what's yours and buy dope. That's the problem, devaluation of life you say, why is the bad guys life worth more than normal law abiding citizen's. I have no sympathy for drug addicts, but if I'm confronted, or catch someone stealing from me, I'll make sure I ask if there an addict before I devalue his or her life.


You failed to realize that I was referencing cases that were more due to lifestyle choices since that actually pertains to the topic. Since drug addiction is clearly a "choice", surely leading a sedentary lifestyle is as well...? At least for the vast amount of Americans who suffer from cardiac arrest from such activity, or lack thereof.

And I never once said you should put up with theft or assault. In fact, quite the opposite. I am a very strong supporter of our rights to defend ourselves, carry regularly and encourage you to take the steps needed to defend your family and yourself against these savages you're so afraid of. It's not that difficult to do. Being a perfect law-abiding citizen, you should have no problem with exercising this right. 

The mindset of walking by someone dying on the street without helping them is what I have a problem with. Deciding that they are worthless because of drug use and just letting them die is backwards thinking. It would be no different than me walking by an obese man suffering a heart attack and refusing to help because he made a poor lifestyle choice. Life is precious, money doesn't really exist, possessions are replaceable. I understand that you probably won't agree, as is your liberty to do so...but if I were to take a page out of Glasseyes' playbook, I would say that type of thinking isn't very Christ-like...


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## Roscoe (Jul 22, 2007)

An estimated 90 percent of the world’s opium production occurs in Afghanistan;
U.S,Soldiers protect the Poppy fields in Afghanistan for the Pushers. Pretty sad!


Although Mexico and Colombia opium production accounts for less than four percent of the world’s total production, they supply most of the heroin to the United States;
Mexican growers and refiners supply an estimated 30 to 40 percent of the U.S. heroin market, primarily to dealers west of the Mississippi River;
Colombia supplies heroin to dealers in most of the remainder of the states east of the Mississippi.

Roscoe


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## cane pole (Nov 27, 2011)

Nightcrawler666 said:


> You failed to realize that I was referencing cases that were more due to lifestyle choices since that actually pertains to the topic. Since drug addiction is clearly a "choice", surely leading a sedentary lifestyle is as well...? At least for the vast amount of Americans who suffer from cardiac arrest from such activity, or lack thereof.
> 
> And I never once said you should put up with theft or assault. In fact, quite the opposite. I am a very strong supporter of our rights to defend ourselves, carry regularly and encourage you to take the steps needed to defend your family and yourself against these savages you're so afraid of. It's not that difficult to do. Being a perfect law-abiding citizen, you should have no problem with exercising this right.
> 
> The mindset of walking by someone dying on the street without helping them is what I have a problem with. Deciding that they are worthless because of drug use and just letting them die is backwards thinking. It would be no different than me walking by an obese man suffering a heart attack and refusing to help because he made a poor lifestyle choice. Life is precious, money doesn't really exist, possessions are replaceable. I understand that you probably won't agree, as is your liberty to do so...but if I were to take a page out of Glasseyes' playbook, I would say that type of thinking isn't very Christ-like...


Enough is enough. I didn't fail to realize anything you said. I get it. I would not have any problem helping anyone whether they were dying, or needed a tire change, I just feel that people who make bad decisions, have to realize there are consequences. I don't believe in all this crap about it was a mistake. People are educated enough in this world to know the difference between right and wrong for the most part. Making a decision to take drug's I guess is everyone's right, just don't expect everyone to feel so bad for you. Especially if you become an addict. The families, yea I feel for them, needing support groups it's a good idea. 
Sorry if I have offended anyone here, I really am. I pray for this world we live in and wish you all on here the best.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Gottagofishn said:


> Wow.... You are hard core sir.


Nah, just realistic.


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## Whaler (Nov 16, 2004)

Cane Pole you are right. Everyone is educated enough now days and are well informed enough to know what drugs will do yet for some stupid reason they start on them and that's a dead end road. I personally knew two guys who were involved in drugs somehow and were both murdered for it. One was tied to a chair in his own house and shot in the head and then a towel was wrapped around his head.
The other was hacked to death with a hatchet in Cleveland. Now I ask you is it worth starting on drugs. Even the big time dealers are killing each other over them. Either the drugs get you or the dealers get you.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

I wonder, when a parent see's their son or daughter in the morgue dead from an overdose, do they think they got what they deserved? Or do they wish they could turn back the hands of time so they could try to figure out why one son choose not to use drugs? What made them different?


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Gottagofishn said:


> I wonder, when a parent see's their son or daughter in the morgue dead from an overdose, do they think they got what they deserved? Or do they wish they could turn back the hands of time so they could try to figure out why one son choose not to use drugs? What made them different?


I'm sure wish they could turn back time because they're parents, and none of us want to believe our kids can do such things. 

However that isn't the reality. Not everyone can be "fixed" and it's rarely anyone's fault but that individuals. It isn't something the parents did or didn't do a lot of the times, but you'll never convince a good parent of that, and that's the real victim of overdose. It isn't the idiot who played a stupid game and won a stupid prize, it's the ones left behind to figure out why. 

It sucks, but reality is that some people do stupid things, some people are just bad people, and people die, and there isn't always someone to blame.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Flannel_Carp said:


> You'd be surprised how many kids get sent to school in the morning with no breakfast and the same pair of clothes they've been wearing for a week.
> 
> There are people starving in the country that don't have a choice in the matter.
> 
> Not that it's relevant to this topic, just your post.


That doesn't mean they are starving. I highly doubt that kid is malnourished. I never ate breakfast as a child. We're talking about starving. Skin and bones. There may be cases of neglect sure but thats not what we're talking about here. And handing a neglectful parent $40 probably isn't going to help them feed their child.
this is starving: 





Thats poverty. Thats destitue. Parents who can't vs those who choose not to. I think the choices we make ARE relevant to this discussion. We don't know what poverty is in this country which is half the problem.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> People aren't starving in this country. If they are, they are doing it wrong.


Oh man... 
There are people living without running water in this country.(this state, this city) 
There are people with no electric, gas, or heat. (this state, this city)
Most definitely there are people who go days without eating.

Mostly I am only aware that these people are children. I am also led to believe the children's parents are mostly druggies.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in_the_United_States


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Dovans said:


> Oh man...
> There are people living without running water in this country.(this state, this city)
> There are people with no electric, gas, or heat. (this state, this city)
> Most definitely there are people who go days without eating.
> ...


5%. My point exactly. From your own article: "Nonetheless, in March 2013, the Global Food Security Index commissioned by DuPont, ranked the U.S. number one for food affordability and overall food security."
My point was and still stand by, if you are hungry in the US, you are doing it wrong. We are not an impoverished country in the least and there is more than enough food available. I'm also sure we waste more food than any other country on the planet.

The point was using tax dollars to feed the hungry vs saving junkies or something. I certainly don't want my tax dollars going to feeding the hungry in this country. I think there are better ways. If it were more of a problem then my outlook would be different.


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## kickinbass (May 25, 2009)

There are more problems in this country than I care to count. The #1 problem by far is parenting. There are thousands of people who are just lazy or on drugs reproducing every day only to raise children as bad or worse than they are. One kid at a school near me walked up to another and slammed him in the face with a basketball point blank, so the teacher called the parent and the dad said "if he had fun doing it he can do whatever the hell he wants" and hung up. Another woman left her 2,3,5, & 7 year old (estimation) in the car while she went in and shopped for groceries and came out to her kids screaming and used enough f-bombs to offend an inmate when yelling at them. Kids are telling teachers and principals to f off (literally) and they can't even do anything about it because "all kids are entitled to education". These kids are raised like that and have zero idea what acceptable behavior is in society so this cycle is only going to get worse trust me.
My wife worked at a preschool that accepted low income families and most of them could care less about the education because they just want rid of their kids for the day.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Dovans said:


> Oh man...
> There are people living without running water in this country.(this state, this city)
> There are people with no electric, gas, or heat. (this state, this city)
> Most definitely there are people who go days without eating.
> ...


 And yet just in the town where I live I drive by McDonald's,Subway,Speedway,Kroger's,several pizza shops,Circle K,Wal-Mart and several others that at most times are hiring.Somehow it just doesn't make sense to me that people are without utilities(gas electric heat or running water)when all these places are hiring yeah it may be only minimum wage,but here's an idea work two jobs then there shouldn't be any problems with feeding your kids or have luxuries such as gas and electric.It is very hard for me to want to help people that don't want to help themselves.I hire several drivers for my company every year and during an interview I can tell in five seconds the one's that are going to work out and those that aren't you have to want to better yourself in order to do so.Any so-called homeless individual or junkie or alcoholic can change their way of life yes it is hard,but life is hard all over.Just today I was driving out of the parking lot at my local Kroger store and here's some(according to his sign)homeless guy claiming he would work for food but no more than 100 yards from where he was standing holding his sign a McDonalds had a help wanted sign posted-any shift I guess to him that piking a few bucks in change for standing outside holding a sign was better than pulling an eight hour shift on an actual job.I'm not cold and heartless I would help out anybody that was willing to help themselves-victims of child abuse,spousal abuse,disabled people and ANY veteran but drug addicts and lazy people not a chance.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Its certainly more of a choice than they'd want you to believe I feel.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> I agree fastwater, my useless brother is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> Nightcrawler, i would rather the





kickinbass said:


> There are more problems in this country than I care to count. The #1 problem by far is parenting. There are thousands of people who are just lazy or on drugs reproducing every day only to raise children as bad or worse than they are. One kid at a school near me walked up to another and slammed him in the face with a basketball point blank, so the teacher called the parent and the dad said "if he had fun doing it he can do whatever the hell he wants" and hung up. Another woman left her 2,3,5, & 7 year old (estimation) in the car while she went in and shopped for groceries and came out to her kids screaming and used enough f-bombs to offend an inmate when yelling at them. Kids are telling teachers and principals to f off (literally) and they can't even do anything about it because "all kids are entitled to education". These kids are raised like that and have zero idea what acceptable behavior is in society so this cycle is only going to get worse trust me.
> My wife worked at a preschool that accepted low income families and most of them could care less about the education because they just want rid of their kids for the day.


I have several family members working in education in various school districts in various states. Some in very low income district(ie inner city Detroit) some in predominately middle class districts, while another in high income areas. 
Trust me when I tell you that this lack of respect and interest in learning that is supported by the parents for whatever reason is no longer coming from just lower income areas.

Also, this 'all kids are entitled to an education' crock is true in every system throughout Ohio. I know a couple people that drive vans for different school systems that deliver kids that have been kicked out of one school district clear over to another. 

...and yes, it's gonna get worse cause in the schools, just like in LE, we have a billion laws that can't be enforced by those we hire to enforce them. And just like in LE, the thugs on the street know that, just like the future, street thug in school knows school rules won't be enforced. It has become a big joke to all of them.


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## kickinbass (May 25, 2009)

Yeah education needs to be considered a privilege rather than just given to everyone. Obviously everyone has the chance for an education but something needs done to give accountability to some of these students and families. It's no different after they graduate, even in adulthood they can do whatever (as little) as they want and they live as good or better of a life as many of us who try to do it the right way. Until there are consequences to hold these people accountable and deter this behavior they'll keep pushing the line further and further, resulting in more system abuse, violence, drugs, and overdoses. Yet we would rather blame violent tv, video games, and guns themselves rather than giving PEOPLE the responsibility and holding them accountable.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

kickinbass said:


> Yeah education needs to be considered a privilege rather than just given to everyone. Obviously everyone has the chance for an education but something needs done to give accountability to some of these students and families. It's no different after they graduate, even in adulthood they can do whatever (as little) as they want and they live as good or better of a life as many of us who try to do it the right way. Until there are consequences to hold these people accountable and deter this behavior they'll keep pushing the line further and further, resulting in more system abuse, violence, drugs, and overdoses. Yet we would rather blame violent tv, video games, and guns themselves rather than giving PEOPLE the responsibility and holding them accountable.


 Excellent post.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

kickinbass said:


> Yeah education needs to be considered a privilege rather than just given to everyone. Obviously everyone has the chance for an education but something needs done to give accountability to some of these students and families. It's no different after they graduate, even in adulthood they can do whatever (as little) as they want and they live as good or better of a life as many of us who try to do it the right way. Until there are consequences to hold these people accountable and deter this behavior they'll keep pushing the line further and further, resulting in more system abuse, violence, drugs, and overdoses. Yet we would rather blame violent tv, video games, and guns themselves rather than giving PEOPLE the responsibility and holding them accountable.


Accountability!
Ha...that road the bus a loooong time ago.

We are, and have been living in an 'entitlement' minded society for several yrs. now.
IMO, We've slowly went from 'the land of opportunity' to 'the land of entitlement' and what we are seeing, especially in the welfare system, is the results of our own doing. Don't want to get political but a good example of what I mean by our own doing is the excuse that's used by many( law makers included) when defending leaving our boarders open and letting illegal immigrants enter this country at will ' CAUSE THEY ARE DOING JOBS WE WONT DO'.
Really!
Jobs we won't do???
Will never buy that excuse as long as the welfare dept. is issuing welfare checks and printing EBT cards to perfectly healthy leeches laying up on the welfare train and nothing is being done about it. Yea, know some of these people too!
It didn't get that way overnight and it's not likely to change anytime soon.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

I grew up when welfare was first introduced, and it's failed so ever since. Then comes along the child abuse program taught to children in school as a self defense for them, until one day a child tells their teacher, that a parent gave them a smack on the butt! Parents are hauled off. Lesson learned, I can do whatever I want attitude. I don't know how we got here, from drugs and addiction but if we as a nation seen by many as easy targets for the massive amount of drug use,I assure you that unless we put a stop to this, things will continue to get worse. I don't think that many really know how much drugs are coming into our country 24/7 365 days. Between the Cartels and the war on drugs must be close to about a Trillion dollars or more. Are those of whom want or need such a massive amount of drugs the weak link? You can bet your ass they are! As many have figured out that America's people lack the necessary Morals and Values to become ripe for the picking. I have been to 23 countries and have a first hand experience as to how we are viewed by the world. And it's not good, that's for sure. They like our money and charitable hand out's, I sure as hell don't like it.Something has to change drastically. But most don't want to leave their comfort zones to make a change. If we continue to do the same thing over and over, then what changes should we expect? Maybe, Einstein could help with that! Oh wait He's not available to take that call


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

All I can say,is I'm glad a few close friends an family members showed pitty for me. Or I wouldn't be here typing this. Everyone and every case is different. I'm happy there funded programs out there to help. And plenty of people willing to help others through stuff like this. Just like there always have been,there always will be entitled people,stupit people,good people,junkies,the person that just got hooked,kids trying to impress there friends,atheist,church Gowers,etc.etc. 
There's just as much good in this country as bad. My first year of public school was 28 years ago and I never recall prayers before school? But we did say the pledge of allegiance every morning. But so does my son currently in pre-school and my daughter currently in 1st grade,both in the same public system I went to. In fact the same elementary school I attended. 
I hope and pray my kids never try drugs. And will do anything I can to do that.
A lot of people say it's this society and this day of age. I dis agree. I see a lot of good in this country and a lot of bad. Lol I think every generation says stuff like that,Times just evolve.
The newest thing now that is happening and a reason over doses are spiking is the use of black market morphine being used to cut heroin. It's crazy! 
I guess a lot of the morphine is coming from China and being ordered on the internet!?


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Harbor Hunter said:


> And yet just in the town where I live I drive by McDonald's,Subway,Speedway,Kroger's,several pizza shops,Circle K,Wal-Mart and several others that at most times are hiring.Somehow it just doesn't make sense to me that people are without utilities(gas electric heat or running water)when all these places are hiring yeah it may be only minimum wage,but here's an idea work two jobs then there shouldn't be any problems with feeding your kids or have luxuries such as gas and electric.It is very hard for me to want to help people that don't want to help themselves.I hire several drivers for my company every year and during an interview I can tell in five seconds the one's that are going to work out and those that aren't you have to want to better yourself in order to do so.Any so-called homeless individual or junkie or alcoholic can change their way of life yes it is hard,but life is hard all over.Just today I was driving out of the parking lot at my local Kroger store and here's some(according to his sign)homeless guy claiming he would work for food but no more than 100 yards from where he was standing holding his sign a McDonalds had a help wanted sign posted-any shift I guess to him that piking a few bucks in change for standing outside holding a sign was better than pulling an eight hour shift on an actual job.I'm not cold and heartless I would help out anybody that was willing to help themselves-victims of child abuse,spousal abuse,disabled people and ANY veteran but drug addicts and lazy people not a chance.


Would you help an addict,trying to "help themselfs"


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## Popspastime (Apr 1, 2014)

Its all about choice.. there's only 1 way your going if you decide to take that road. I don't feel sorry for those who do, take a precious life and waist it on drugs. The family's and friends suffer. Don't blame the economy or family.. that's BS. And YES, its hit close to home as well as home so until you walked in peoples shoes don't make excuses for bad choices.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Saugeyefisher said:


> Would you help an addict,trying to "help themselfs"[/QUOTE
> That would depend on the person and the situation.An over-the-top abuser that funds his habit by stealing or constantly bumming money from family and friends-no I wouldn't somebody that has just recently became hooked and was really trying to get clean would maybe be a different story.


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## EStrong (Jul 23, 2014)

I have not read this entire thread but will get through it sooner or later. Looks like a lot of good posts and opinions.

I'll toss this in, I'll apologize if it's been covered already.

At one point, it was the medical establishment's main priority to address and alleviate any pain that a patient was having, whether due to surgery or other medical conditions. So Drs prescribed pain killers and handed them out like tic tacs to their patients without second thought. The majority of these pain killers were addictive and they got their patients "hooked" via legal prescriptions. Then, Drs cut these people off cold turkey and left them addicted and with a prescription drug habit that they would no longer fill. So some of these poor souls ended up turning to illegal drugs to get their fix, or they bought prescription pills under the table. So what was a patient is now a drug abuser. That's a fine line to dance around. Big Pharma, Doctors and Insurance Co's have really screwed things up big time. Let's not even get started on the whole over prescribing antibiotics thing, which has created super bugs and massive cases of IBS and IBD in a bunch of unwilling victims. Some people are more prone to addiction than others. It's unfortunate when someone becomes a slave to big pharma and it ruins their life because the medical establishment turns their back on them.


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## Saugeyefisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Im suprised nobody has mentioned the recent leagleization of medicinal marijuana?in ohio.
Or atleast the process being started


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## Evinrude58 (Apr 13, 2011)

I worked as a fast food manager for a number of years and had many employees claim to get injured at work. Most were faking it to get pain pills which some used and some just got so they could sell. I know this from other employees and sometimes from the actual person. I worked in a food factory for a couple years where you had to carry any prescriptions in the actual bottle it came in. As I have a bad shoulder from when I was in the service from time to time I use pain pills. Every time I used them while I worked there I would have atleast a half a dozen people ask me to sell them some. I know there are people out there who got hooked because of surgery/injury but these people in my experience are the exception rather than the rule, I do feel aa bit for these people. For the rest I feel no sympathy. I think that making Narcan, I believe it is called, so easily available was a mistake. I read recently that people are intentionally ODing then having Narcan used on them. I guess it is something like that movie from the 80's Flatliners seeing how long you can go.


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## Evinrude58 (Apr 13, 2011)

Oops a double post


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Gottagofishn said:


> I think the reason this thread is sparking so much interest is that so many have either experienced this first hand or have had, or have someone they love with this issue. It is my oldest son that is plagued with this.
> I think you shouldn't turn your back because I did early on. It didn't help. _Nothing _really helped except to let him know when he is at his worst that I will always call him my son.


Amen! I cannot fathom what society allows someone turning their back on an immediate family member. Afterall, it has been said, "Blood IS thicker than water"!! A son or daughter did not ask to be born. Many who have not lived thru close family member addiction cannot possibly understand the horror and heartbreak of it!(Nor should they make profound judgements/comments regarding how it should be handled!!)JMHO


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

c. j. stone said:


> Amen! I cannot fathom what society allows someone turning their back on an immediate family member. Afterall, it has been said, "Blood IS thicker than water"!! A son or daughter did not ask to be born. Many who have not lived thru close family member addiction cannot possibly understand the horror and heartbreak of it!(Nor should they make profound judgements/comments regarding how it should be handled!!)JMHO


None of us asked to be born so regardless of what we are doing wrong, that should never be an excuse to do so.
IMO, that depends on your definition of 'turning your back' on a family member. When dealing with an addict, theres a very fine line between 'enabling' and 'helping'. Sadly, when it comes to addiction, many family members selfishly think with their heart and think they are helping, but in reality, they are enabling. And the only thing those enabling family members are doing is plunging their loved one further into the addiction. Show me just one addict that hasn't had to hit their personal 'rock bottom' to know themselves that they have to stay clean and and are serious about it I'll show you an addict that's not gonna stay clean very long. If I keep enabling that addict, keep propping them up by paying their bills, housing/feeding them and protect them from hitting that personal rock bottom, I might as well be out there helping them score their fix.
In short, I would be 'loving' my family member to death... literally. And again, IMO, that would be turning my back on my loved one.

Gottagofishn, I'm very sorry for your situation.
I've made mistake of my own in my situation. There's no book that scripts how to deal with each individual addiction situation. I ended up having to do what many would consider 'turning my back' on my loved one. But they always remained my loved one and knew it. Even though they tried often to brow beat me sayin, 'I didn't love them ' or 'family doesn't treat family that way' or 'you've always loved (insert another family members name) more than me'. BTW, Those are the nicer things.
Yup! Heard em all.
But even when I was hearing all that crap, I knew it wasn't my true family member talking. It was the family member that had become an addict and it was the addiction talking.
They were/are still my loved one...


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## JamesF (May 20, 2016)

I believe that every family in some manner has experienced to some degree, what this thread is about. How to deal with it more often the so called professionals are just guessing at. I am not sure about the treatments and effects are really the answer to stopping addiction, as stated before there are many people on prescription meds who have become dependent on such drugs with out even being aware of it. However you cannot help anyone who doesn't want to be helped. Just as we cannot change anyone, but ourselves. As the saying goes, we can't change the past, and we can't predict the future, we only have the here and now,( and this is the point where are decisions and choices are what shapes our future).One thing that I believe, is; no one suddenly decides one day that they are going to become an addict, as simply as no one decides that they want be homeless! Most of these decisions are made by big corporate greed, always wanting more, living off the backs of the average American people. This is nothing new to our society, just look back on The Industrial Age and how people like the Rockefeller's ,Morgan's and all the others who made their money off the backs of the immigrants of whom came to this country in search of a better life, only to be treated as slave labor. And yet with such great minds in this country we cannot stop the flow of drugs coming into this country. The war on drugs is just a placebo to appease the American people that at least we are trying.I honestly believe the people doing the grunt work are doing their part as best as they can, given the resources available in an overwhelming atmosphere. I wish them all best.


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## tomb (Oct 9, 2004)

My inlaws have had their lives wrecked by drugs. All 3 of my wife's sisters live on a combination of social security and disability from permanent damage due to excessive drug use. My mother and father inlaw lost their house from constantly helping out the three sisters during their drug abuse days. They are clean now, but the path of destruction they left behind can't be undone.


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

I think this is the typical damage that most often happens to families trying to help their loved ones. It's very sad. The mental anguish is so great that some can never get over it. And the worst part is they blame themselves over something that they could not foresee or control. This is happening all over the world, unless other countries clamp down, this will continue. In some countries it's like the Zombie apocalypse, people don't work for a living nightmare they work for a fix.


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