# Public or Private? Who owns it? Ok to fish, or not ok....



## fishinnick

I've been thinking about this a lot lately while looking for new places/stream sections to fish......both in and outside of Steelhead Alley, and after hearing stories of people getting kicked out of places that aren't obviously private. We know you're ok to fish in parks(ie. Cleveland Metroparks, Lake Metroparks, various city and township parks, etc..) but as we all know there are many well known fishing locations out there that are not part of any parks. In Ohio we must have the landowners permission to access private property, but how exactly do we know who owns the property? The state? Some random person who's house may be far from the water, but they're land extends all the way to the river?

Here's one of just many, many examples all across the state: The State Rd. Covered Bridge on Conneaut Creek. On the upstream side of the bridge there are no trespassing signs....so obviously whoever owns the land doesn't want people there. On the downstream side of the road there is a well worn pull-off that is used by fishermen(and no "no trespassing" signs). But WHO owns that land? Pretty sure it's private. It is not marked on ODNR's fishing map for the stream. Yet on another ODNR map(a water trails map) I noticed the bridge is marked on there, but it says you have to obtain permission from the landowner to access the stream. So to "legally" fish there, us fishermen would have to go door knocking to fish there and on downstream. Same situation on other stream sections......

Just one example

Here's a couple others.....that include accessing a waterway at a public park first: The Grand River at Indian Point, Hidden Valley, Harpersfield, and many others. Public parks that are popular with fishermen. As you would fish your way up or downstream, eventually you would wander off of park property and onto someone else's land. The park boundaries are often shown on the maps, but as we all know fishermen like to wander and find out "what's around the next bend." But can we? Most houses are far from the river's edge with woods in between, while the next closest houses are up on a cliff.

So, if there are no posted signs and you're obviously not in someone's backyard...........still ok to fish these types of places without the risk of getting into trouble? Now what about floating a stream? Sure enough you're bouncing bottom at some point or heck even getting out to wade......how would you go about obtaining permission? Many people float the Grand and I'm sure most don't go door knocking all up and down the river.

Just striking up a conversation and would like to get other peoples' opinions. Like I said, there's many popular fishing spots all across the state that are on private land....even if it's not obvious. We know you "have to" have permission to fish private land, but most people don't get permission. And maybe it's not an issue if the closest house is 1/4 mile from the river and people frequently fish it. So I guess my question is......when do you "need" permission, and when is it perfectly acceptable to fish right away(as many others do)....


----------



## beaver

The law is that you need permission to be legally allowed to fish. Plain and simple. 

With that being said, river and stream fishermen notoriously ignore that law to the point that it is almost commonplace and rarely enforced unless the landowner complains. 

I know if I owned land that was attached to a river system, I personally wouldn't care if people waded or floated through and fished, as long as they weren't leaving trash or damaging the property in any way.


----------



## fritoking

It is my understanding that you can float any navigable waters , but the moment you get out and stand on the river bottom it's considered "on the property" . There's a spot close to me that gets a good white bass run...one side of the bridge is private the other public. The game warden routinely handed out fines for trespass and when asked relayed the info about the float.


----------



## beaver

Yes you can float. However, as soon as you, your sinker, your lure, your decoy weights, etc touch bottom, you're trespassing.


----------



## fritoking

It is my understanding that you can float any navigable waters , but the moment you get out and stand on the river bottom it's considered "on the property" . There's a spot close to me that gets a good white bass run...one side of the bridge is private the other public. The game warden routinely handed out fines for trespass and when asked relayed the info about the float.


----------



## fishinnick

beaver said:


> The law is that you need permission to be legally allowed to fish. Plain and simple.
> 
> With that being said, river and stream fishermen notoriously ignore that law to the point that it is almost commonplace and rarely enforced unless the landowner complains.


Yup. I would assume this is why many of these types of "non-public" spots are popular.......because the landowner(s) simply doesn't mind fishermen. But technically, the landowner could just go out on any random day and bust the fishermen for trespassing.



fritoking said:


> It is my understanding that you can float any navigable waters , but the moment you get out and stand on the river bottom it's considered "on the property" .





beaver said:


> Yes you can float. However, as soon as you, your sinker, your lure, your decoy weights, etc touch bottom, you're trespassing.


Exactly. So the "legal way" to go about it is to go door knocking on all the houses that parallel river in the section you plan to float and ask for permission.

But many people just carry on with the float anyways....guides included. Going back to my Grand River(or any river of your choice) example and beaver's post, it isn't enforced since there aren't any issues....and the landowner(s) must not mind. Heck, some of the landowners might not even know that their land extends way back through the woods all the way to the river.


----------



## fritoking

http://senr.osu.edu/sites/senr/file...eadingMaterials/OH_water_and_water_rights.pdf 

You most certainly CAN fish navigable waters from a boat or canoe...your sinker,lure ,etc is not trespass. Anchoring could be construed as , as well as " tying off on to an onshore item" . You may also portage if you take the most direct path along the waterway. Also, I live on a 160 acre "private" lake, private meaning all the land surrounding is privately owned. The lake has an out feed stream about half the size of Arcola creek that joins a navigable river. Since the out feed creek is also considered navigable, every so often the D.O.W launches a boat at our private ramp and checks licenses. When asked why , since it's private their reply was people have the right to fish since the lake is accessible via the navigable outflow, but could not step foot on shore.


----------



## beaver

According to the game wardens , your sinker, lure, etc. Are in your control and therefore you're trespassing if you don't have permission. The same goes for duck hunters with decoy weights.


----------



## jjshbetz11

but what if I'm float fishing from a canoe...buh ha ha ha....and yes,,,,my presentation never bounced bottom.....


----------



## beaver

I highly doubt that anyone is going to go through the trouble to argue wether or not your presentation was on the ground in court. Just passing along the information that was given to me by the guy who writes the tickets.


----------



## Steelhauler

The correct thing to do is to knock on doors and ask? I know that if I was the landowner I would expect as much. It's my property, I have every right to chose those I allow to acces my property if any.
In my opinion, if you know the law says that without express permission, I think the regs say written permission from the landowner, and you chose to "wander" on to a stretch of river that is privately owned, you are knowingly breaking the law.
I have been Steelhead fishing in Ohio since the inception of the program and have done a lot of door knocking to gain access. It used to be pretty easy to gain. Not so much anymore, Over there years I have lost access to some prime fishing spots, due to disrespectful anglers that didn't have the courtesy to ask for permission.

Wes


----------



## KTkiff

A lot of it depends on the mood of a game warden or police officer that day. I asked a police officer about a spot one day that is posted on Lake Erie but I see people fishing there all the time. He said as long as you are fishing and near the water you are fine. They just don't want you up in the grass. I then saw someone being ticketed two weeks later who was just fishing.


----------



## fishinnick

Steelhauler said:


> The correct thing to do is to knock on doors and ask? I know that if I was the landowner I would expect as much. It's my property, I have every right to chose those I allow to acces my property if any.
> In my opinion, if you know the law says that without express permission, I think the regs say written permission from the landowner, and you chose to "wander" on to a stretch of river that is privately owned, you are knowingly breaking the law.
> I have been Steelhead fishing in Ohio since the inception of the program and have done a lot of door knocking to gain access. It used to be pretty easy to gain. Not so much anymore, Over there years I have lost access to some prime fishing spots, due to disrespectful anglers that didn't have the courtesy to ask for permission.
> 
> Wes


Yeah. But going back to my Conneaut Creek example, there's truly only one public "park" on the lower part of the creek. The rest is owned by various landowners, but you don't see the hordes of fishermen knocking on doors on Saturday mornings at the popular access points(even though no homes are in the immediate area). I assume the state owns some of the land especially around the RR tracks, but other parts......I guess the only way to find out is to knock on doors. But most people don't even think about it at these very well known areas, because they're already popular established spots to fish. Hence the reason for this thread......

I've done my share of talking with landowners to gain permission, especially on trout streams out in PA. Most, at least the ones I've talked to, don't mind fishermen and are happy you asked. Others say "there's fish in that little ditch?!??" Haha


----------



## SelfTaught

Check out the local county auditors websites. You can look up all the land and property and who owns what. Pretty cool websites.


----------



## rickerd

I have to say that I hate this discussion every year but this issue is on my mind often.

The state of Ohio and the law enforcement of the "law" has been so inconsistent, that no clear direction can be found. Forces us to take the most restrictive path which is to get landowner permission. I wish this state would be like MI in this sense and allow access to all waterways and uses to the public. Many states have dissolved the original public right to use navigable waterways and Ohio is in this category. Seems like a number of judges, over the last 200 years, have made rulings in Ohio which have eroded the original intent of the law, in favor of adjacent property owners. So I can't tell you what to do. I think it is ridiculous if a property owner doesn't post "no trespassing" signs on his property, that if we wander to use the waterways, I am breaking a law. But I know some law enforcement and land owners operate this way.

So I take the path of least resistance and curse the overabundance of lawyers and judges in our state. Sorry to my friends who are lawyers but you have heard me say that before and remain my friend.

Just looking for new water to explore,
Rickerd


----------



## Lundy

Rickerd

Sorry but couldn't disagree with your opinion more.

Private property ownership rights far, far out weigh you right to access

Want a great example of why it is and should be and remain at the descrection of the landowner please read the camp Perry threads about them shutting down access to ice fisherman due to property damage and trash. This elimination is a direct result of lack of respect for private property by fishermen


----------



## Lundy

One more question Rickerd,

If I don't put no trespassing signs in my yard and yet find you fishing in my pond in my back yard are you trespassing? Did you know you didn't own my property before you entered?

Just curious how you rationalize access


----------



## Cajunsaugeye

I'd like Rickerd to buy some nice waterfront acreage somewhere.I could fish it WHENEVER I WANT!


----------



## buckeyebowman

SelfTaught said:


> Check out the local county auditors websites. You can look up all the land and property and who owns what. Pretty cool websites.


This is an interesting question, but you almost have to be a lawyer to keep up your end of the discussion. Riparian law is one of the backwaters (pun intended) of the legal system. 

As SelfTaught wrote, many counties have their property tax maps available as aerial photographs with the property lines drawn on them. Beats going to the courthouse and paging through township plat maps! 

I suppose it all boils down to how "serious" the landowner is about trespassing. All I can say is that, the more trash I would find on my property, the more serious I would become.


----------



## ironfish

I suppose it all boils down to how "serious" the landowner is about trespassing. All I can say is that, the more trash I would find on my property, the more serious I would become.[/QUOTE]
Of the many river miles I have walked,I see way more homeowner/non fisherman trash ie tires,signs,traffic barrels,washer machines,lots and lots of black plastic drainage pipes,all types of large items I have never seen any fisherman lug around.Some stream bank trash is left behind by young people getting there "sip on".etc I see very little trash left behind by fishermen almost none...People in general have become more fear based they just dont want strangers near there perceived "safe space" lol


----------



## beaver

I have a couple hypothetical question for the guys who think that they should be able to "tresspass" without getting in trouble for "tresspasing". 

The first question, do you or have you ever owned any land?

The second, if the same scenario of a creek and fishing were changed to a strip of woods or field and hunting, would you feel the same? If not, what is the difference in your reasoning?


----------



## Salmonid

Every year. Lol. Here are a few things that are 100 percent certain. 
If you are floating and not touching bottom your ok. If you are casting, technically you are "hunting game without permission" floating through is ok fishing is not by the folks who want to get technical on you
Someone spoke about access at a rr access. Those are ALL privately owned. Not state owned. 
Every where is owned by someone. If its not a park, its private. Very simple
Last point is you do NOT need to post your property. Ohio courts assume you, the trespasser , know where you are at any given time. Without written permission you are trespassing and can be cited for such although in my Experience most leo's will not cite you if you knowingly just apologize and offer to leave. The key here is weather you knowingly trespassed in which case you may get cited. Thus why landowners post signs every 10 ft so you can not say you didnt know. 

Best advice is get in water, stay in water, move stealthily and if ever confronted leave immediately. Yes Ohios laws are grey and enforcement is non consistent causing a lot of problems. 

Salmonid


----------



## ironfish

Also


beaver said:


> I have a couple hypothetical question for the guys who think that they should be able to "tresspass" without getting in trouble for "tresspasing".
> 
> The first question, do you or have you ever owned any land?
> 
> The second, if the same scenario of a creek and fishing were changed to a strip of woods or field and hunting, would you feel the same? If not, what is the difference in your reasoning?


 beaver, hardly apples to apples. A errant roll cast fly fishing nobody die's.shoot at grandma hanging the laundry thinking shes a deer no turkey dinner this year..


----------



## beaver

I meant more like using a resource that someone else has bought, taken care of, etc. 

If you want to throw safety into the equation, there is the issue of liability. If I'm duck hunting and I don't know that you're trespassing on my land , who's to say that you don't accidently get a face full of shot when the ducks start flying? 

That is the main reason that I only allow permission on a trip by trip basis. I like to know who's around and when. I don't want to let so and so and his young son go youth deer hunting on my place and not know if there are other people trampling around in the same area. 

Regardless, I think both scenarios the landowner deserves the respect of asking. It's not hard to figure out who owns the property before hand. In my experience, most landowners really don't care, but they get mad when they find out you've been without asking. It's a respect issue.


----------



## steelhead

Lundy said:


> Rickerd
> 
> Sorry but couldn't disagree with your opinion more.
> 
> Private property ownership rights far, far out weigh you right to access
> 
> Want a great example of why it is and should be and remain at the descrection of the landowner please read the camp Perry threads about them shutting down access to ice fisherman due to property damage and trash. This elimination is a direct result of lack of respect for private property by fishermen


Lundy,

Private property rights are extremely important. 

However to say you own a resource is a very touchy subject.

The issue I see is that people have it both ways, they reap the bounty of taxpayers and sportsman creating a great fishery, the government cleaning the river (see Ashtabula) the taxpayer subsidies that fund the flood programs. (I'm sure people with posted land have reaped that benefit when the chagrin yearly floods)

You of course have all of the government help, roads bridges, power lines, etc that have been built to help build up the value of your property.

In Conneaut for example you have the railroad tracks, and power lines that were taken by eminent domain, and are now no longer private property but companies property, as well as the bridge on state road they was referred to.

I have a pond, and I don't have my land posted however I don't have a road and bridge crossing it, it doesn't flow hundreds of miles across public and private land so they only onto it is to cross my property for the exclusive use of being on my property.

In a river on a plot map if I enter at a bridge. I am usually on eminent domain property of the state. 

If I walk down or upstream in the water or at the high water mark I am doing no different than navigating the water way. 

If I crossed someone's land to get there different story.

Owning the land to the river is fine, I just don't see how you can own the stream bed? The owner can't siphon off the water, put a dam up, or alter the stream bed, I also assume that they don't have mineral rights to the stream bed and can't mine it or the state would have something to say.

If I wanted to get out at the state road covered bridge and walk to the kings vile bridge whil staying in the water it should be legal.

I just think it should be like western rivers where high water mark access is allowed. 

My main issue is that areas with houses right on the river gates mills, chagrin, etc I'm sure don't want to watch fisherman right outside their window, however they sure want our help when their "private" waterway floods them out.

There has to be a solution somewhere that helps land owners and fisherman who subsidize the value of rivers....


----------



## Salmonid

Steelhead, a very large reason the landowner owns to the center of the stream is because landowners pay taxes on the land unde3r the water and because they do, they do have some rights when it comes to mining gravel or rocks ( with permits) alsosmall dams can be built by permit for aestetics and farming reasons, same with bulldozing the riparian zone, or cutting all trees, they can do it, and to some degree they also are allowed to use a large amount of water from the stream, ( its a percentage of the total CFS) and even higher amounts if its used for farming where it goes back into the watershed. Now Ohio and many other states do NOT follow the high water mark which is their right as the federal guidelines are just that. a guideline.

Just remember the state owns the water and the game ( fish) in it because all game is transient meaning it moves from property to property but just like deer hunting, the states give landowners the right to who may hunt on there property to take the state owned game, same with fish. only exception is if you have a large spring that starts on your land, you are 100% entitled to every drop of the water and game because it started on your property, once a water source enters and leaves your property, it is handled by a completely different set of laws.

Not sure where folks keep thinking they have a right to trespass to fish on others land but it just keeps coming up around here, ignorance is no excuse, I suppose its good to ask these questions on here but then many just keep going on how that's BS and they gonna trespass anyways, frustrating as those few are the ones that keep getting prime properties posted, I know when I guided back in the late 80's and 90's up on the steelhead streams I had written permission to fish a ton of areas and over the next few years they all got posted as a few individuals kept fighting with landowners saying it was there god given right to access those places and many would not leave when asked too. littering was secondary but always a problem. Just like the ice access at Camp Perry we have but a handful of idiots to thank for loosing that access.


Salmonid


----------



## rickerd

Lundy and Cajunsaugeye,
I own Lake Erie beach and harbor frontage through our home owners association. We allow neighboring developments to use our beach as long as they are courteous and obey our rules. Dogs on a leash type of stuff. So I understand the ramifications. But it really affects the stream owners much more. And I am not talking about wandering hunters into back yards. Everyone knows that is stupid.
I think the public deserves full access to the stream up to the first flood line. Hard to believe most fisherpersons would not agree. Unless you do own land on a stream that will be affected. I am entitled to my opinion just as all others are.

My opinion is simply this, it works well in MI, why not similar interpretation of the original laws in Ohio too?

I had thought of a couple other examples but I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I just know I love the access to MI streams and there are hundreds of waterfront properties that are kept up well on the Au Sable and Pere Marquette that I have wandered past. They have always been friendly too. Maybe people up North are just friendlier people than my native Ohio (tongue in cheek there)

How's that for a comment during this week?

Rickerd


----------



## Cajunsaugeye

"Obey our rules".But " I don't wanna obey Ohio's rules".Hmmm,wonder what happens if they don't "obey your rules" or trash up the place.I know,you'd give them MORE access,right? SMH.


----------



## rickerd

Cajun,
I take offense to you trying to put words in my mouth.
I never said I was not going to obey the rules!

Rickerd


----------



## KaGee

Cajunsaugeye said:


> "Obey our rules".But " I don't wanna obey Ohio's rules".Hmmm,wonder what happens if they don't "obey your rules" or trash up the place.I know,you'd give them MORE access,right? SMH.





rickerd said:


> Cajun,
> I take offense to you trying to put words in my mouth.
> I never said I was not going to obey the rules!
> 
> Rickerd


No reason for either of you to get your blood pressure up and get personal here.

Rickerd, So, yes, you never literally said that, However, I have read your response a couple of times and each time came away with the impression that you may have a double standard with your beachfront vs other property owners along rivers and streams. I can understand how Cajun interpreted the way he did.


----------



## fishinnick

SelfTaught said:


> Check out the local county auditors websites. You can look up all the land and property and who owns what. Pretty cool websites.


Good stuff! And extremely helpful. Not all the counties have maps on the websites, but many do.. 



Salmonid said:


> Someone spoke about access at a rr access. Those are ALL privately owned. Not state owned.
> Every where is owned by someone. If its not a park, its private. Very simple


So technically the only way to legally fish these areas is to get written permission from the whoever owns the land(in my Conneaut example, it would be the Bessemer & Lake Erie RR company after referencing the Ash. County Auditor site). But you can visit Conneaut on a weekend and see a gazillion people fishing from rt. 7 on down....and vehicles lined up on Old Main Street.......even though all of this is "private property" and one would need written permission to fish this area.......according to Ohio law. 

On the other hand the land down from the State Rd. Covered Bridge area is owned by individual people/families.....so it would be easier to go door knocking. But then as you would fish on downstream you'd be crossing into many different property lines, owned by many different people........even though it's virtually all woods with no houses near the creek. 

Average Joe fishermen would drive along the bridge, see a worn down "fishermen's pull-off", no houses nearby, etc. and decide to fish it instead of tracking down the landowner. But in Ohio, tracking down the landowner(and many many more that own the land downstream of there) would be the only legal way to fish it. BUT, people fish it anyways......and it's not posted unlike the land upstream of the bridge. Heck, the landowner(s) probably doesn't care......which is why people fish it(along with many, many other "private" areas that are popular fishing areas). This is the reason for my post. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting permission to fish certain areas.....and those county auditor maps take the guessing game out of who exactly owns the land.


----------



## beaver

Right, people do it, have done it a long time, and will continue to do it I'm sure. However, all it takes is for one new owner to disagree with it and all of those people start getting tickets. Just because farmer John who is too busy working his fields, or grandma and grandpa who haven't ventured out of the yard in years don't care or even know who is fishing, doesn't mean that someone else who buys or inherits that property will feel the same way. 

You're right in the point that I believe the reason it continues is because the owners don't complain. Wether be because they don't care, don't know, or just don't want to cause a stir. 

Most game wardens don't mess with trespassing charges unless the landowner complains. After all, they're busy enough. Why would they waste their time asking for permission slips if the property owner doesn't care anyway? 

I've got a little creek on my property that's not good for anything except catching bait. However , I've had a couple people stop and ask if they can sein it for creek chubs and shiners. I let them and thanked them for asking. Now if I would have just caught them without asking, I wouldn't have been so nice. Not because I really cared that they were there, but because they didn't have enough respect to ask. 

The entitlement attitude that some people have anymore drives me insane.


----------



## creekcrawler

I remember some of those areas along the Conneaut people allowed you to fish in the past.
Then I remember the one owner's wife saw a nice steelheader relieving himself on a log in their backyard.
Boom. Posted.


----------



## grummanator

Lundy said:


> One more question Rickerd,
> 
> If I don't put no trespassing signs in my yard and yet find you fishing in my pond in my back yard are you trespassing? Did you know you didn't own my property before you entered?
> 
> Just curious how you rationalize access


I love the irrational parallels and scenarios some are creating to validate their stance on waterway usage. No one wants to fish your pond or hunt your woods, they simply want to wade and fish a stream that extends far beyond "your" property. As for the property damage, I've never been to Camp Perry to ice fish but I assume no one will be driving their trucks through "your" creeks or property to gain access. I have fished numerous flows around central Ohio and 99% of the garbage I see is not from fisherman. I personally don't see the issue with people having the right to wade a stream and fish as long as they are not walking through someone's property to gain access. I always begin on State land and finish on State land unless I have received permission.


----------



## Lundy

Grummanator,

The bottom line is that private property is private property. You do not have a right of access without the landowners permission, nor should you. The individual rights of the ownership trump your desires for recreation, either ask permission or trespass and accept the potentials that may or may not come your way, your choice.

I'm 100% sure that all fishermen are not created equal, I'm guessing that the steelhead guys, while seemingly a volatile group as a whole probably do not litter as much as your average weekend bank fisherman. However go to any public access fishing spot at any lake and take a look at the trash. I don't think the local bowling league guys are driving to the lake to dump their trash.


----------



## Cajunsaugeye

Grummanator,the only "irrational scenarios" are you trying to validate walking on someone else's property.You can start wherever the heck you want.BUT,in Ohio,as soon as you step foot out of the"state land"(even in the water) you are TRESPASSING.Most guys I know are smart enough to know that and are decent enough people and sportsmen to abide by it.


----------

