# buckeye lake algae blossoms!!!!!



## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

Buckeye lake has been tested and has the algae problems like St. Marys! I was gone today for a fishing tourny and found out about the details and it seems serious, the dnr has been flying around in hellicopters and driving around the local neighborhoods warning no one to swim. They said they are blossoming so they aren't bad yet. I say START DREDGING!!!!
Kyle

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## Yates (Dec 24, 2007)

Algae spur state to shut Buckeye Lake beach 

ADGRPID:|SERVTYPE:
TOXIC BLOOM 

Saturday, June 4, 2011 03:08 AM 
By Lauren Hepler

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH 

JOSH JARMANDISPATCH
Makayla Stanley, 16, of Kentucky, left, and Adam Balzer, 10, of Lancaster, play in the water at Brooks Beach on Buckeye Lake. Both youths said they didn't see the sign warning them not to touch the water because of toxic algae.

State officials have posted signs at Buckeye Lake warning visitors not to swim, wade or swallow water at Brooks Beach after toxic algae blooms were spotted there.
The 3,100-acre lake east of Columbus is the second Ohio body of water where warning signs have gone up this spring. Visitors at Grand Lake St. Marys in western Ohio were told to stay out of the water last month after blue-green algae blooms formed.

"We are not waiting for a crisis to happen," said Merv Bartholow, president of the nonprofit advocacy group Buckeye Lake for Tomorrow. "We're looking at a lot of different options to control the algae."

He said one dredge is already operating, and measures to limit carp and geese populations also are being considered.

So far, only one of the lake's three beaches is affected, said Laura Jones, spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources.

"We'll stay vigilant on the other two beaches," Jones said. "We will be out testing every week."
Blue-green algae, also called cyanobacteria, are fed by phosphorus that can come from manure, fertilizers, sewage and decaying leaves and plant matter that rain washes into ditches and streams. It can grow so thick in Ohio lakes that the state has to warn people to stay away.
The toxic algae were first detected in Grand Lake St. Marys in western Ohio in summer 2009.
Last year's algae "bloom" emerged in late June, covering large sections of the lake in a thick scum that smelled like sewage and practically ended boating and fishing for the season.
In all, 20 public lakes and ponds in the state were affected last year.
The level of microcystin (a liver and nerve toxin formed by algae) found in Buckeye Lake is a fraction of what was measured in Grand Lake St. Marys. The state has no safety guidelines for toxin levels.

"I'm a bit alarmed that a reading that low would trigger the signs to be posted," Bartholow said. "That lake is our front yard and it contributes to our property values."
Jones said the advisory will stay up until no blooms are seen for two weeks.

A similar bloom was found in Buckeye Lake in 2009, but not until later in the season, said Ron Craig, president of the Buckeye Lake Area Civic Association.
Craig lives just a few hundred yards from the Brooks Park beach.

"It does raise concerns," Craig said. "Right now, the water is high. The algae blooms usually come out in the summer, when the water is low and the temperature rises."
Jones said residents and visitors should be aware of anything that looks like a bloom.
"Folks should continue using Ohio's waterways this summer," Jones said, adding. "It's about using good common sense and staying away from any surface scum."
[email protected]


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

Manure and dead leaves? I think that has been the typical buckeye lake bottom for years now. My question is why did they drain the lake 6 inches from memorial day to now?
Kyle

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## Hole in the ice (Apr 23, 2010)

My neighbor and I caught 9 nice keeper Saugeyes last Thursday trolling over the tow path but when we cooked the fish they tasted musty, just like the water smelled. Never had that happen at Buckeye Lake before. Kept the fish alive in good condition in the live well, dressed them, refrigerated them immediately but tasted MUSTY. Good news is no one got sick but everyone noticed the off flavor.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

This will continue to happen, every single year when it gets warm out, until the actual problem is addressed.
And the actual problem has little to do with dredging, or geese and carp populations. Leaves and plant matter have been decaying and washing into lakes for 1,000s of years. 
Me thinks it MIGHT just have more to do with the manure, fertilizer and sewage.
So long, Buckeye Lake. You're still a decent duck hunting lake.


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## zaraspook (Jun 16, 2009)

Buckeye Lake Fans.........Sorry to hear of the early toxin warnings at your lake. Don't panic but start your movement now to correct the issues. It takes decades to reverse contaminants and root cause. Start now! Be diligent! It may take years to amass support in funds and actions. Learn from our mistakes at Grand Lake St. Mary's and you'll avoid chronic and escalating problems. Good luck!


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

Come on, don't be pesimistic here. Buckeye lakes odnr and locals aren't gonna give up easy or anytime soon.
"Don't give up, Don't ever give up..." Jimmy Valveno
Kyle
HPT



Bubbagon said:


> This will continue to happen, every single year when it gets warm out, until the actual problem is addressed.
> And the actual problem has little to do with dredging, or geese and carp populations. Leaves and plant matter have been decaying and washing into lakes for 1,000s of years.
> Me thinks it MIGHT just have more to do with the manure, fertilizer and sewage.
> So long, Buckeye Lake. You're still a decent duck hunting lake.




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## bman (Apr 20, 2009)

I remember taking my son swimming and fishing there last summer thinking, "man, I'm surprised this shallow stagnant lake doesn't also have an algae problem."

Alas....there is an algae problem.

I wonder if there is any way to try and introduce aquatic plants-even something non-native like milfoil that once established would compete with the algae for the phosphorus/fertilizer. Of course, then all the lakefront home owners would complain about how weedy it is, demanding the state spray the weeds! Sure would make for an awesome bass fishery though!


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Don't be pesimistic? It's a done deal. You can't swim in the water, for crying out loud. They went right by don't eat fish, right by don't drink the water, to don't even swim in the water.
And it's only early June. Wait until there's been 45+ days of 85 degree temps and we're in the throws of August. The algae will REALLY get going then.

I know the drill far too well at Grand Lake. Buckeye is done for a while. For a long while until they address the actual problem.
And the actual problem will not get addressed as long as there are loopholes in the Ohio CAFO guidelines (Confined Animal Feeding Operations), and as long as the Ohio Dept. of Agriculture is the watch dog for all the "farms" that don't qualify as CAFOs.
....it aint the leaves, or deacyed plant matter, it's the fertilizer and manure. Ask the guys from Grand Lake.

Not being a pessimist; trying to be a realist. But nobody gets too worked up until it's in their own backyard.


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

I would sure like the weeds in the lake, not only bass but many other fish would love it



bman said:


> I remember taking my son swimming and fishing there last summer thinking, "man, I'm surprised this shallow stagnant lake doesn't also have an algae problem."
> 
> Alas....there is an algae problem.
> 
> I wonder if there is any way to try and introduce aquatic plants-even something non-native like milfoil that once established would compete with the algae for the phosphorus/fertilizer. Of course, then all the lakefront home owners would complain about how weedy it is, demanding the state spray the weeds! Sure would make for an awesome bass fishery though!




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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

But there's had to be fertilizer and manure washing into the lake for a longer time then now


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

Buckeye Lake has always had algae blooms since it was first dug from an existing swamp many many years ago.It is natural for it to have such year in and year out.It's been warmer than normal much earlier this year.The surrounding farmlands are nothing like GLSM so the problem will never be as bad.The sewer problems that plagued the lake for many years are no longer a key problem as new regulations have been in place for years.As a result the lake overall is much cleaner.Dredging has increased for years as well.The main change is the same problem all lakes are experiencing ,the large increase in population of the geese.Look at the walk ways,the shore lines,parking lots,picnic areas,ect.They are literally covered in their poop.Some places are several inches thick,when it rains the runoff goes right into the lake.Until the state realizes the nuisance and health hazard those things are,it'll only get worst.They need eradicated back to the levels of years ago.I can remember it being rare to see 5 or so a day.Now you can see hundreds before loading the boat in the water.It's got to hurt the water quality greatly.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

EVERY lake has algae blooms, Puterdude. It's part of the annual cycle. Not every lake has toxic algae forming, annually the past few years.

Blaming it on the geese is funny. Is that what they're saying around the boat ramps? That it's the geese fault?


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

I see algal blooms nearly every year on the Olentangy behind the dams. Get rid of the dams, and you will probably get rid of the blooms.....Yeah, I realize that is not going to happen, and in the case of Buckeye and St. Mary you would just end up with vegetation choked wetland from all of the "fertilizer."

I also have seen blooms in Raccoon Creek when the water gets low and hot. Raccoon Creek has had some notorious incidents of poultry feces running in from the megafarm in Croton. I know they have improved some from the old days, but I have to imagine that this year's rains washed a good bit of feces from many sewerage sources this year.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

puterdude said:


> Buckeye Lake has always had algae blooms since it was first dug from an existing swamp many many years ago.It is natural for it to have such year in and year out.It's been warmer than normal much earlier this year.The surrounding farmlands are nothing like GLSM so the problem will never be as bad.The sewer problems that plagued the lake for many years are no longer a key problem as new regulations have been in place for years.As a result the lake overall is much cleaner.Dredging has increased for years as well.The main change is the same problem all lakes are experiencing ,the large increase in population of the geese.Look at the walk ways,the shore lines,parking lots,picnic areas,ect.They are literally covered in their poop.Some places are several inches thick,when it rains the runoff goes right into the lake.Until the state realizes the nuisance and health hazard those things are,it'll only get worst.They need eradicated back to the levels of years ago.I can remember it being rare to see 5 or so a day.Now you can see hundreds before loading the boat in the water.It's got to hurt the water quality greatly.


1. This year's climate(temp) is not so vastly different than any typical year in Ohio. 

2. Prior to DDT there were thousands of geese and the lakes did not have these problems. Really, it's because of all the birds that we have toxic algae levels? Aren't there birds at Alum, Hoover, Oshay, Griggs, Madison Lake, Deer Creek and Delaware? 

3. It's a proven fact that CAFO's and other industrial farming practices that have gone unchecked for FAR to long are the primary point source.


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

I personally hunt for geese in the winter on the corn fields that are behing snug harbor. The amounts of geese that rise up are absolutely ridiculous. It wouldn't suprise me if over 7,000 rise up every evening. I know majority are from migration but still if 10% are locals, that's 700 geese. I also think Bubbagons fertilizer has much to do with it as well because the old canal by millersport (where I duck hunt) has multiple colverts throwing the fertilizers in the lake. As well as feeder creek, honey creek and every canal has a colvert throwing crap into the lake. I think upping the buckeye lake region for amount of goose taken per day in season should rise to 4 instead of 2. And maybe make the buckeye lake region in the northern zone like old times so we could hunt longer. I think less geese and somehow controlling the farmers would help greatly. 
Kyle
HPT

Btw I'm goin fishin! Ill report later 



puterdude said:


> Buckeye Lake has always had algae blooms since it was first dug from an existing swamp many many years ago.It is natural for it to have such year in and year out.It's been warmer than normal much earlier this year.The surrounding farmlands are nothing like GLSM so the problem will never be as bad.The sewer problems that plagued the lake for many years are no longer a key problem as new regulations have been in place for years.As a result the lake overall is much cleaner.Dredging has increased for years as well.The main change is the same problem all lakes are experiencing ,the large increase in population of the geese.Look at the walk ways,the shore lines,parking lots,picnic areas,ect.They are literally covered in their poop.Some places are several inches thick,when it rains the runoff goes right into the lake.Until the state realizes the nuisance and health hazard those things are,it'll only get worst.They need eradicated back to the levels of years ago.I can remember it being rare to see 5 or so a day.Now you can see hundreds before loading the boat in the water.It's got to hurt the water quality greatly.




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## fished-out (Dec 20, 2005)

I don't believe it's been hotter this year as opposed to last year. If anything, it's been colder, as witnessed by the later than usual spawns across most of the state. The one big change--we had one of the wettest Aprils on record. Every field I saw had standing water in it for weeks. The creeks and rivers had major flooding. All of that created much more run-off than usual. I believe that created the conditions for an earlier and more intensive algae bloom on Buckeye.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Ceasars Creek lake set a record at something like 27 feet above normal summer pool. Deer Creek was 20 some feet above normal summer pool. Am I to believe no geese use those resevoirs?


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

Yep that makes since, I never thought about the abundance of rain this year. Is it deffinite it will come up next year, say next year is a normal year though, not too much rain and average temps.?

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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Bubbagon said:


> EVERY lake has algae blooms, Puterdude. It's part of the annual cycle. Not every lake has toxic algae forming, annually the past few years.
> 
> Blaming it on the geese is funny. Is that what they're saying around the boat ramps? That it's the geese fault?


Let&#8217;s get this straight before someone is fooled. You don&#8217;t know SQUAT. You&#8217;re flapping your gums without any knowledge. End of story. You may THINK you do, but you don&#8217;t have a clue as to what&#8217;s going on. CAFO guidelines? That has zero relevance. Regulations have continued to tighten on farm practices every year, and it&#8217;s just now that the algae problems are showing up. Can you explain that? Many, many things contribute, but it usually ends up that the biggest factor comes from excess fertilizer from home owners. An enormous amount of goose manure could possibly cause it too.


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

crittergitter said:


> Ceasars Creek lake set a record at something like 27 feet above normal summer pool. Deer Creek was 20 some feet above normal summer pool. Am I to believe no geese use those resevoirs?


You are comparing apples to oranges. Buckeye has a average depth of 6 to 7 ft.Whats the average depth of Deer Creek,Alum & Hoover?Excessive Goose poop will affect a shallow pool far quicker & to a greater extend than a deeper pool.


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

And for the record I am not saying the geese are the primary cause,just a big contributor.


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

So what does everyone think should be done to the lake to save the fish, water, and everyday boaters and fisherman who enjoy the lake?

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## StumpHawg (May 17, 2011)

That not good


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

I swear I had not read this article previously, but it tags onto my earlier comments very well regarding how our record rainfall this year has to have some effect on runoff. Seeing as how some other comments have stirred up a s___storm of debate, I googled "manure lagoons ohio," and the story below popped up on top. I don't doubt there are several causal factors, but common sense tells me that runoff+shallow lake+recent unseasonably hot weather=algal blooms. Think about it, usually when Buckeye gets this hot weather, it is later in the summer when it is dry, and you aren't getting a lot of effluent pouring into the lake.

The thing about that article that scares me is the phrase "could pollute." You know that these feeding operations aren't going to get on the phone and call to report that their lagoon is washing into some dry run that is now a gully washer. If this little Dispatch reporter working from her phone is saying "could pollute," I guarantee you that it means that they "are polluting." Yesterday where I live we had a gullywasher that dumped 2-3 inches of rain in about twenty minutes. Today you wouldn't even know there was a storm. Just think how many gallons of crap can flush into a watershed in the blink of an eye.




> Lagoon overflow
> 
> Rains leave manure a threat to waterways
> 
> ...


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

Streamstalker beat me to it. I was just about to post this news release from the ODNR.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

puterdude said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges. Buckeye has a average depth of 6 to 7 ft.Whats the average depth of Deer Creek,Alum & Hoover?Excessive Goose poop will affect a shallow pool far quicker & to a greater extend than a deeper pool.


Fair enough, but blaming birds just seems like a real stretch to me. 



M.Magis said:


> Lets get this straight before someone is fooled. You dont know SQUAT. Youre flapping your gums without any knowledge. End of story. You may THINK you do, but you dont have a clue as to whats going on. CAFO guidelines? That has zero relevance. Regulations have continued to tighten on farm practices every year, and its just now that the algae problems are showing up. Can you explain that? Many, many things contribute, but it usually ends up that the biggest factor comes from excess fertilizer from home owners. An enormous amount of goose manure could possibly cause it too.


So, CAFO's are the good guys and those vile birds are the REAL culprits here. I think I get it now.


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

I think there is a lot of contributing factors,early excessive heat,excessive rain this past spring,an excessive increase population of geese,over fertilizing lawns & crops.It all adds up but we can only control a few of them and we should start now,not after it's too late.Homeowners want plush golf course lawns,farmers want every kernel of grain,it all adds up I guess.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

crittergitter said:


> So, CAFO's are the good guys and those vile birds are the REAL culprits here. I think I get it now.


Read it again, I never said any such thing. Don't be quick to blame and don't be quick to dismiss. And those that don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make stupid comments.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

M.Magis said:


> Read it again, I never said any such thing. Don't be quick to blame and don't be quick to dismiss. And those that don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make stupid comments.


We don't know how stupid our comments are until you tell us. Thank you again for providing this valuable service.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

streamstalker said:


> We don't know how stupid our comments are until you tell us. Thank you again for providing this valuable service.


No need to thank me for doing something so simple. It required no effort on my part


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## dad3mc (Mar 22, 2011)

Gotta love it when it heats up!....and I don't mean the temp outside!:beer:


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## Saws21 (Jul 1, 2008)

Blaming it on the geese!?!? For Real.... Heck might as well blame it on the fish, cause they ALL crap in the water 24/7! And homeowners fertilizer,,, alot of lawn fertilzer used has very little or no phospharus... Just like at grand lake... Blame 2,000 geese saying they poop more than the 5 million plus turkeys in the watershed!


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

Well fished for around a hour tonight and missed 4 and got 2 good fish on a chartruese and black with a brown trailor bass jig. Here's the better fish, protecting his fry. Btw they were released on the spot.
Kyle
HPT









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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

No or very little turkeys around buckeye lake



Saws21 said:


> Blaming it on the geese!?!? For Real.... Heck might as well blame it on the fish, cause they ALL crap in the water 24/7! And homeowners fertilizer,,, alot of lawn fertilzer used has very little or no phospharus... Just like at grand lake... Blame 2,000 geese saying they poop more than the 5 million plus turkeys in the watershed!




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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Saws21 said:


> alot of lawn fertilzer used has very little or no phospharus...


That's really not true. Many folks just buy triple 10 and throw it all out without knowing what they need. Let me be clear, I'm not saying what it is or isn't. I don't know, but neither does anyone else. To blantantly place blame is foolish. And as usual, those that are quick to draw conclusions are those that know the least.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Mr. Magis, you have no idea what I know, or what my background is, where I get my information, or who I've spoken to, or how much or little I've studied this subject.

Of course there are multiple factors. Of course home owners are a factor and the lake would be better off if there was a couple hundred yards of cattails and hydrilla surrounding it to filter out the homeowners fertilizer.

But at the end of the day, the lake is too shallow to handle all of the manure and farm fertilizer that gets dumped into it each year. And when it gets hot, viola, you got a nive toxic algae bloom.

Kill all the geese and make the homeowners use non-phospharus fertilzers, but don't address the farming practices.
See where you are in 10 years.


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## st.slippy (Oct 3, 2008)

M. Magis, please educate us. Give a paragraph synopsis of what you think the real problems are. You are playing referee and just shooting down what others are saying , without fully explaining your point. In the last post, you said you don't know. Just try and be clear about what you are trying to say. I've been trying to follow your posts, but there is no continuity in what you are saying. Put the info out so we all know. You can't have an argument, telling people that all these things aren't contributing factors, without knowing yourself.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

As I said, I don&#8217;t know and I won&#8217;t pretend to know. What I do know is that neither does anyone here, some of which are placing blame without any understanding of how the problem is occurring. Maybe I&#8217;m not typing things out clearly, I do that a lot. The point I&#8217;m trying to make is to not assume one thing is the primary cause, particularly something that has gone unchanged, if not improved, for years. I want to point out that the Ohio Farm Bureau is not in charge of CAFO guidelines, and to imply such dishonesty shows an extreme lack of understanding of the subject. I&#8217;m sure the people looking into it aren&#8217;t going in with tunnel vision, neither should we.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Bubbagon said:


> And the actual problem will not get addressed as long as there are loopholes in the Ohio CAFO guidelines (Confined Animal Feeding Operations), and as long as the Ohio Dept. of Agriculture is the watch dog for all the "farms" that don't qualify as CAFOs.
> ....it aint the leaves, or deacyed plant matter, it's the fertilizer and manure. Ask the guys from Grand Lake.


Well Magis, maybe your reading comprehension is on par with your typing skills.
I never said the Ohio DEA was in charge of CAFO's, they aren't. The EPA is supposed to be. But the Ohio DEA also doesn't want to do anything about the farms that are just under the CAFO limit and can pretty well do as they please.

And as far as the root cause, nobody is guessing. We're basing our opinions on what the EPA has collected over the past few years, the research that they've peformed and the results. A lot of it is what they have collected from Grand Lake and Lake Erie (Yup, same problem up there, plus the other 19 inland Ohio lakes last summer)

Yes, there are many contributing factors. But manure and farm fertilizer is 80+% of the source. 
Here's a link to dozens of articles and info from the Ohio EPA:
http://www.epa.ohio.gov/pic/glsm_algae.aspx

Look into it.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

This is probably the most concise explanation of what has happened at Grand Lake St Marys that I've read.
I'd suggest if you're interested in teh future of Buckeye Lake, to read it and understand what is coming down the road for Buckeye.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...e-st-marys-dying-from-toxic-algae-794991.html

_Ohio EPA Director Chris Korleski said the latest species of algae bloom is one we havent seen before, and there is cycling in the lake weve never seen before. At this point, we just dont understand it.

The root cause, however, is clear  the run-off of manure and fertilizers from watershed lands feeding the lake. Ninety percent of that land is used for livestock and crop production by 450 or so mostly family-owned farms, according to the Ohio Farm Bureau. It also happens to be some of the most productive and profitable farmland in Ohio. In 2007, Mercer County ranked first in the state, and Auglaize County eighth, in agricultural revenues, generating a total of $675 million, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Manure and most farm fertilizers contain phosphorus, which feed the algae in the lake. Depending on the species, the algae may or may not release toxins into the water. Either way, as the algae blooms and dies off, it robs oxygen from the water and kills off fish. The dying algae and its phosphorus settle into the sediment at the bottom of the lake.
_


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Bubbagon said:


> Well Magis, maybe your reading comprehension is on par with your typing skills.
> I never said the Ohio DEA was in charge of CAFO's, they aren't. The EPA is supposed to be. But the Ohio DEA also doesn't want to do anything about the farms that are just under the CAFO limit and can pretty well do as they please.


Maybe I wrote the wrong thing, but you're still wrong. And in reference to your EPA link, they're no longer what they started out as or intended to be so I apologize if I have no interest in reading their thoughts. Though the EPA started out with great intentions and was absolutely necessary, theyve turned into a Gov funded special interest group over the years.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

It must be great to just be able to say "You're wrong" without any supporting evidence.

I know you won't read these links, but in case you want to support or detract from your own arguement, this would be the info you need:

http://www.animalag.org/adx/aspx/ad...MediaID=215&Filename=Ohio+to+South+Dakota.pdf
http://coto2.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/cafos-to-seize-ohio-thru-issue-2/

_Under 2002 CAFO regulations, Ohio was the 7th most pollutive state in the nation. [Maps here.] The Ohio EPA explains:

These operations generate manure, litter and process wastewater, which can contain pollutants like nitrogen, phosphorus, metals and bacteria. If CAFO operators do not manage these materials properly, they could release pollutants into the environment through spills, overflows or runoff. These releases, in turn, might pollute surface waters and threaten the health of people and animals.
_


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

As a lesson to us all...the only "facts" deemed acceptable on this board are the ones supported by M.Magis' personal ideology.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm done. I have other things to do when there's such an underlying reluctance to accept the truth.

But this will end up just like Grand Lake. Everybody sitting around pointing fingers, ignoring the science, blaming geese and homeowners...until it gets REALLY bad.

Enjoy your research.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Bubbagon said:


> But this will end up just like Grand Lake. Everybody sitting around pointing fingers, ignoring the science, blaming geese and homeowners...until it gets REALLY bad.


You do realize that YOU were finger pointing, don't you? I'm not blaming nor removing responsibility from anyone. It could very well end up being exactly what you're saying. My one and only point from the beginning is that none of us knows yet. Let the determination be made, and fix the problem. 
Net, not sure who peed in your Cheerios, but spit, rinse, and move on.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> Lets get this straight before someone is fooled. You dont know SQUAT. Youre flapping your gums without any knowledge. End of story. You may THINK you do, but you dont have a clue as to whats going on. CAFO guidelines? That has zero relevance. Regulations have continued to tighten on farm practices every year, and its just now that the algae problems are showing up. Can you explain that? Many, many things contribute, but it usually ends up that the biggest factor comes from excess fertilizer from home owners. An enormous amount of goose manure could possibly cause it too.


THIS is what bunched me up, Magis. Your first reply. And since that reply you've done nothing but keep saying, "You're wrong" without any other kind of info.
I've piled MOUNDS of information on you supporting my point...information based on actual science, research, and history of what has happened in nearby lakes.

You said "it usually ends up that the biggest factor comes from excess fertilizer from home owners. An enormous amount of goose manure could possibly cause it too".
The biggest factor doesn't "usually" end up being home owners. I DARE you to show me just ONE example of this being the case. It's downright laughable.

GEESE!!! LOL!!! Are you serious? I'm still laughing.

And no, I aint moving on, and neither should you. It's our friggin water table that we're talking about here. WATER, the thing on Earth we can't live without.
Everyone should be peesed. And they should also educate themselves on why this is happening and what we can do about it.
And raising the bag limits on geese from 2 to 4 is just pissing into a tornado.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Never mind, you aren&#8217;t getting what I&#8217;m saying. I never said you were wrong about what&#8217;s causing the problem. I said you&#8217;re wrong about how the CAFO works and who does what. That&#8217;s it. Your supply of &#8220;evidence&#8221; is pointless here. All that should matter is what&#8217;s causing the problem at Buckeye, not what has caused the problem elsewhere.


> And no, I aint moving on, and neither should you.


That wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the peanut gallery and their one liner with no purpose. I haven't expressed my ideologies on anything other than letting the cause be found before placing blame.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Maybe he's a politician? 




Bubbagon said:


> It must be great to just be able to say "You're wrong" without any supporting evidence.
> 
> I know you won't read these links, but in case you want to support or detract from your own arguement, this would be the info you need:
> 
> ...


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> Your supply of evidence is pointless here. All that should matter is whats causing the problem at Buckeye, not what has caused the problem elsewhere.


No, quite contrary, "evidence" and science is EXACTLY what needs to be interjected into the conversation.

Or we could just sit around the bait shop beetching about how many geese there are these days, and how Ma Belle's yard is a litte too green.
And say things like "Many, many things contribute, but it usually ends up that the biggest factor comes from excess fertilizer from home owners"....a statement that has completely no basis on fact, science, or anything other than the ability of a guy to string letters together in the form of a sentence.
It's just simply not true, and has zero supporting evidence.

I guarantee you, that the problems at Buckeye have very, very, very much to do with what is happening at the other 19 inland lakes in Ohio with the same toxic algae.
I guarantee you that the research done by scientists, by the EPA, by numerous organizations with varying interests, WILL indeed be very relevant to finding a solution for Buckeye Lake.

Nope, "evidence" and "facts" and "science" are good things in this situation.


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## st.slippy (Oct 3, 2008)

I believe we learn from history, and can begin taking steps to reduce potential causes until the science is there. I don't think some massive immediate government regulation will solve anything, but if we can reduce contributing factors, then we will be working towards the solution. This isn't caused by one thing, it is a synergistic effect of many factors coming together. True if we point a finger in any one direction, we are not solving a problem, but merely looking for a scapegoat. We need to get people passionate about trying to fight this, so people can organize and have the power to make a difference.

We can point fingers, call names, tell each other how wrong we are. Just remember we all have one goal, and that is cleaning up our waterways to keep them safe for us and our children. So write people of power, get together and educate. Lets try to solve this, not just fight about it!!


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree in concept, Slippy. But the problem is, most people don't know who to write, what to write, or what to suggest.
So who do you write for which perceived problem?

_Indeed, the science is so vast, specialized agencies address Ag operations:

&#9632;Ohio Environmental Protection Agency issues pollution permits to farms;
&#9632;Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife investigates all fish kills and impacts to other wildlife;
&#9632;ODNR Division of Soil and Water Conservation enforces Ohios agriculture pollution abatement laws for small and medium livestock facilities;
&#9632;Ohio Dept. of Health, Environmental Health Division responds to and investigates fly nuisances caused by factory farms; and
&#9632;OAC Division of Surface Waters CAFO Permitting Program, among others._

Yes, it's a melting pot of sources, but you have to chase the main source points first. And unfortunately, it's the farming practices, not the geese.

_The root cause, however, is clear  the run-off of manure and fertilizers from watershed lands feeding the lake._

We need to have some basis of understanding before we can even understand what we're mad about or who we're mad at.


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## KWaller (Oct 3, 2010)

You guys are speakin some pretty fancy words, please dumb them down in your next post for me lol  
Thanks,
Kyle
HPT

_OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors_


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Bubbagon said:


> evidence.
> 
> I guarantee you, that the problems at Buckeye have very, very, very much to do with what is happening at the other 19 inland lakes in Ohio with the same toxic algae.
> I guarantee you that the research done by scientists, by the EPA, by numerous organizations with varying interests, WILL indeed be very relevant to finding a solution for Buckeye Lake.
> .


Again, I'm not saying you're wrong.


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## spfldbassguy (Mar 23, 2009)

Alot of good info in the links provided and everyone should take the time to ACTUALLY read some of it before spouting off about who's right and who's wrong. 



All I know is that a certain someone has an ego bigger than all of the members on here put together. It's almost like listening to two little kids arguing with the one providing valuable information and the other one shaking his head,stomping his feet,and repeatedly saying your wrong.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

OK,
Farmers spread LOT and LOTS of manure and fertilzer on their fields. The method of spreading and timing of the spreading is largely unregulated, or at best very difficult to regulate. (Have you ever seen how much sh1t a chicken farm or a large cattle farm produces daily?)
So farmers just spray, as opposed to injection fertilization etc.., and all the manure and fertilzer gets washed into ditches and creeks. These ditches, creeks and culverts feed into a shallow lake.
This shallow lakes now has tons of new nitrogen and phosphorus and tons of new sunlight, creating a perfect climate to grow toxic bacteria.
This bacteria is not only harmful to people and land animals, but it also robs the water of oxygen and creats massive fish kills.

Shallow lakes located in farm rich areas are the first to show signs of the toxic algae. But even lakes as large as Lake Erie are having the same issues due to the overwhelming amount of runoff entering the lake.

And animal matter and lawn fertilizers also add to the problem. But their percentage of influence is minimal, if not negligable (quantities so small that they can be ignored (neglected) when studying the larger effect).


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> Again, I'm not saying you're wrong.


Ummm, yes you are....repeatedly.
Your own words: _You dont know SQUAT. Youre flapping your gums without any knowledge. End of story. You may THINK you do, but you dont have a clue as to whats going on._


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Good luck with this one fellas.

I'm headed south for 4 days of kayaking and fishing, so I gotta bow out.
It will be interesting to see what everyone has come up with in a few days.


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## dre (Aug 14, 2009)

Question. I actually have a business partner coming up this Saturday for a day of fishing out on Buckeye. After reading all this, is it still safe to go out on the lake and such?? Just want to make sure.

Thank you,

Matt


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Bubbagon said:


> Ummm, yes you are....repeatedly.


Okay, one last time Some of your initial comments were very much incorrect. You comments regarding past problems and their causes, no argument from me. What youre saying is the cause may be at Buckeye, neither of us knows at this point.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Specifically which of my initial comments were "very much incorrect"?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Your suggestion regarding the ADA having a conflict of interest and overlooking farms that don&#8217;t qualify as COFO&#8217;s is not correct. I&#8217;m guessing it would also be quite insulting to those involved, but that&#8217;s just a guess. Though it&#8217;s a new work in process, there are now many agencies involved overlooking farming practices. I may be wrong, but I believe the EPA is part of that as well. Now I&#8217;m certainly not saying that there aren&#8217;t farmers skirting the rules. We all know there are and that&#8217;s a big problem. But it&#8217;s not fair to throw such a broad blanket over everyone.


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## hutch (Apr 29, 2010)

Too much sh_t! = Too late!


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Bubbagon said:


> OK,
> Farmers spread LOT and LOTS of manure and fertilzer on their fields. The method of spreading and timing of the spreading is largely unregulated, or at best very difficult to regulate. (Have you ever seen how much sh1t a chicken farm or a large cattle farm produces daily?)
> So farmers just spray, as opposed to injection fertilization etc.., and all the manure and fertilzer gets washed into ditches and creeks. These ditches, creeks and culverts feed into a shallow lake.
> This shallow lakes now has tons of new nitrogen and phosphorus and tons of new sunlight, creating a perfect climate to grow toxic bacteria.
> ...





Cut and dry. There it is. Same thing with GLSM. Farm runoff is the culprit, not geese...and not carp.


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## hutch (Apr 29, 2010)

I agree the geese and carp thing is a bunch of BS! They use it as an excuse to try to fool people. Just like our lovely government.


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## Saws21 (Jul 1, 2008)

My comment of 2000 geese poop more than 5 million turkeys in the watershed, was addressed to what some " Farmers " are blaming the problem on up here at Grand Lake. Sorry was not meant for you to think Buckeye watershed.
All you have to do is look at the Army Corps of Engineer studies... At Grand Lake agricultural run off accounts for like 75-85% of the phosphorus problem... I know some people do use Phosphorus lawn fertilizer but most don't around here ( Grand Lake area) On the other hand, I have no idea what companies such as tru green etc use.
I believe your buckeye lake will end up like our grand lake. I work for the Division of Wildlife... and I've been on grand lake in a boat, and by the smell, you'd swear we were floating in Hog crap.

Also not saying I know everything cause I don't, just stating what I know and answers to questions I have asked. And not all farmers are to blame, its the bad ones that give them all a bad name/reputation.


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## JAlBREC1 (Feb 12, 2011)

havent seen a bit of it any where


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