# Batteries and sizes ???



## large6er (Sep 1, 2013)

I have ask a lot of different questions about batteries over the past year but for some reason my brain is having a hard time putting it all together.

As I understand, there are liquid lead acid, sealed gel cell, AGM?
Now can any of these types of batteries be Cranking, marine or deep cycle?
Is there a difference between Marine and Deep cycle?
there are 3 sizes to batteries 24, 27, 31

How would I determine what size to use. Whats the rule of thumb?

Now for specifics, I have a 2072 mod vee with a Yamaha 4 stroke 60HP . at the the rear of the boat I have a battery that provides power to the motor, running lights, small LED interior lights, and power is supplied to my HDI 7, point 1 antenna and nmea 2000 connector. So what would be the best battery to start and run all my accessories.

On the front of my boat I have a 12 volt Minn Kota power drive 60LB I Pilot w/ remote going to a single battery. same question as above.

I like to troll using both the main engine and the trolling motor (for steering) about once or twice a week and maybe less during slow times.

Thank you for any knowledge passed along 

Mike


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

Large I'm sure you'll get many different ideas on this subject but here's what I do for my 18' Crestliner:
1st I'd recommend buying *the best *deep cell/Marine battery you can afford for all applications, keeping in mind you really need 4 different ones. 1 in the back for the engine starter/accesories, 1 up front if you have a fish finder up front (this can be a cheap battery) and 2 others up front wired in _parallel_ for the trolling motor. If you only have 1 FF you can eliminate the 1 battery up front but a FF cannot run on the same battery/ies as the TM.
I like this set-up as the TM will run twice as long on those days I'm trolling for crappie and you allways have a back-up or two for the starting motor if needed.
I've had good luck with many different brands of batteries over the years and attribute that to good maintenance of them, charging as soon as I get back home and taking them out of the boat and storing in the garage over the winter-time. Of course, checking water level twice a year is essential also. I've never ever had a battery failure save 1 time in Canada when the starter batery was dead after a particulary hard time starting the engine that morning. I simply took one of the TM batteries out and switched it. Hope that helps, keep it fun.


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## RJohnson442 (May 14, 2013)

a marine is the same as a deep cycle battery. The best setup would be a Sealed liquid acid batter for the motor. (they handle cranking amperage better then deep cycles) and use a deep cycle "marine for the trolling motor and accesories. (deep cycles handle loads better for longer times but are not good for cranking amperage) The just add a battery switch between the two and you'll be good to go. You can run down deep cycles longer then a standard battery without sacrificing Amphours.Standard automotive batteries don't take well to being drained like a deep cycle on power and will kill the battery faster as in destroy it not just loss of power. Can you use just a deep cycle for both sure...


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## RJohnson442 (May 14, 2013)

If you only have 1 FF you can eliminate the 1 battery up front but a *FF cannot run on the same battery/ies as the TM.*
Thats not true you can run both on the same battery.

How would I determine what size to use. Whats the rule of thumb?
Amphours or Ah. add the max amp draw of all equipment and select you battery from there. 
Starting battery: sealed lead acid battery with enough cranking amps
(sound like you already have this no need to change) this is all it will be used for unless it's an emergency.(main motor failure) use the switch to access power from the battery to power the TM.

Accesories: from what I can find your TM draws about 45amp max. 
FF and Light and bilge if you have one add another 15Amps so you probably draw around 60Amps max.

Example: Your deep cycle has a 90Ah reserve. You can run the TM on full power for two hours. Now if you ran the TM @ half speed you would be drawing around 22 AH and could run for 4 hours and so on.

Now the fun part If you have a Alternator on the motor and your using both you can extend the run time a little longer by charging the deep cycle through the battery switch. or charge it on the way back to the dock (A higher Rmp will give you more charging from the Alt.)


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

To try and answer your questions ..... Not all marine batteries are deep cycle batteries. There are marine batteries that are just starting batteries. Also, the difference between a "marine" battery and a standard car battery is in the construction of the battery. Marine batteries are more sturdily built in order to withstand the shock and vibration that comes with use on the water. Marine batteries are also rated differently when it comes to "cold cranking amps". Car batteries use 0 degrees Fahrenheit as a test temperature, marine batteries use 32 degrees Fahrenheit as a test temperature. 

Can you use a deep cycle battery as a starting battery? While some people may say no ... the answer is yes. You can use a deep cycle battery as a starting battery. The reason some people may say that you can't or shouldn't use a deep cycle battery for a starting battery is probably because a deep cycle battery takes longer to charge than a non deep cycle battery. Their reasoning may be, that unless you are running long distances, the alternator on your motor may not be able to bring the battery up to full charge in a short period of time. I assume their fear would be that if you were making a number of short runs that the cranking battery would eventually lose power and be unable to start your main motor.

That may well be the case, but I have never had that problem, and I use all deep cycle batteries in my boat. Actually, as you mentioned, if you use a number of accessories off of your starting battery, it would be smart and pretty much essential (from a battery life standpoint) that you use a deep cycle battery as your starting battery. Especially if you do a lot of low RPM trolling. I may be incorrect, and if I am someone please correct me, but as I understand it not all alternators put out enough amperage to recharge a battery if the motor is running at idle speed.

As far as choosing what size battery to use ... I can tell you what I use. My starting battery is a group 24 deep cycle battery. I use it to start my motor (120 HP) I run 2 depth finders, and all my accessories off of it. One of the depth finders runs constantly, the other runs any time I have the trolling motor in the water. So out of an 8 hour day, both depth finders are running 6 hours or more each time out. On tournament days my live well aeration system runs continuously from the minute I put the first keeper of the day in the box. That means sometimes it's running as long as 7 1/2 hours along with my depth finders. If need be I run the bilge pump and navigation lights at the same time as well. I've never had a problem pertaining to battery power when needing to start the big engine.

For my trolling motor ( it's 24V) I have 2 group 27 deep cycle batteries. The trolling motor is 75# thrust. The batteries last virtually the whole day. I do notice a decrease in power near the end of the day, but I have yet to run the batteries completely dead during a normal day of fishing. The group 27 size works for me because I have a 24V system and a smaller fiberglass bass boat, and I don't use the trolling motor to actually troll. You saying you have a mod vee too me means you have an aluminum boat BUT you have a 12V trolling motor so a group 30 or 31 would probably be a better choice for you since they have a higher amp hours rating. And if you use your trolling motor to actually troll, you're definitely going to want as much reserve power as you can afford

Personally, as soon as these group 27 batteries I'm currently using wear out, I'll be going to group 30 or 31 batteries just so I have that added power reserve. I once had the big motor die at Mosquito while about 4 miles from the ramp I launched at. I was down wind from the ramp and had to use the trolling motor to get back. I sure wish I would have had the bigger battery that day, I can tell you that. lol 

Anyhow ....... hope I helped


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## EnonEye (Apr 13, 2011)

RJohnson442 said:


> If you only have 1 FF you can eliminate the 1 battery up front but a *FF cannot run on the same battery/ies as the TM.*
> Thats not true you can run both on the same battery.
> 
> I untrue your untrue LOL. MinnKota specifies not using any other accessories on the same battery/s you use for the TM that has I-pilot. Trust me i tried it and blew fuses consistently inside the TM head, not fun to change.


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## RJohnson442 (May 14, 2013)

Missed the I-pilot part.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Agree with and feel Bassbme ahs given you the best and thorough information. 
On my erie boat outboard I run all my Sonar/Gps, livewell, lights, bilge and radio off my size 24 Interstate Marine starting battery and have no problems over the past six years. Two size 27 Interstate Deep Cycle batteries (wired in series for 24volt) for my 80# Minn Kota I-Pilot. 
On my inland boat I run the outboard motor on a size 24 starting battery. A 45#MK Pwr Drv Co-Pilot as well as the Sonar/Gps, livewell bilge and lights on a sz 27 deep cycle Interstate.
I have NEVER experienced any Sonar or Gps issues running off of either battery as described in the two different systems.


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## large6er (Sep 1, 2013)

Wow thanks for the great info. I will do some internet surfing tonight to see what the charging rate for my Yamaha is. I have to admit that yamaha starts so easy I think it would start off a double (AA) battery. I do wonder though what the charging is like while trolling at idle speed, I would love to wire my trolling motor thru a battery switch if it would build up enough volts/amps to charge while trolling. When the wind is pushing the nose of my boat all over the lake I need to crank up the speed on the trolling motor just to keep the nose/steering under control. With the info I got from this post I think I may just add a second battery to the trolling motor if nothing else for possible battery issues. From Bassbme's advice and the fact my engine starts so easy I may use a deep cycle for starting because if I am trolling without the main motor running I still have the FF on drawling amps, and this may give me some longer run times with out the main motor on.


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## RJohnson442 (May 14, 2013)

If you know someone with an amp clamp you could find out easily. Harbor freight has some inline amp meters that go +/- 50 Amps for like 5 bucks to.


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## large6er (Sep 1, 2013)

I do have access to an amp clamp and Ill have to give that a try. Thanks for the suggestion


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

large6er ..... your thought of getting another battery for your trolling motor is a good one, and one I should have mentioned in my earlier post. You'll double your reserve capacity which would be extremely helpful with your trolling motor set up. Your description of having to run your trolling motor at higher speed settings in order to control your boat properly, and its resultant affect on battery power is one that I had to deal with until this year. 

Earlier this year, after giving me 7 years of good performance, the trolling motor on my boat went down for the count. While it was a 24V trolling motor, it only had 46# of thrust. The low thrust meant I had to run the trolling motor on higher speed settings in order to control the boat. Running the trolling motor on those higher speed settings quickly depleted my battery power. There were more than a few days when after fishing the majority of the day in the wind, that I found myself seeking out sheltered water, just so I could get the trolling motor batteries to last a couple of more hours. I no longer have to do that because the higher thrust of my new trolling motor allows me to run at lower speed settings which has dramatically increased my battery run time. You adding a second battery is going to give you just as much satisfaction as getting a higher thrust trolling motor, gave me. You're gonna love it !!! 

Personally, I also think that you will have made a wise choice if you do go with a deep cycle battery as your starting battery. As you said, your motor starts easily so you'll rarely if ever have any periods of extended high amperage being drawn from your starting battery, so a slower charging rate will be of little concern while on the water. The deep cycle battery will also give you the peace of mind of knowing that you won't fatally damage the battery if you inadvertently leave your ignition key or one of your accessories on without knowing it. 

And if, god forbid, your big motor goes down and you're forced to use your trolling motor to get back, you'll have the luxury if need be, to move your starting battery to your trolling motor system without fear of damaging it. I had to do that very thing when getting back to the ramp at Mosquito that I described in my earlier post. 

I don't know what your charging system currently is, but if you can find away to afford an on board battery charger, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor. I have a 3 bank, 10 amp per bank on board charger and it takes all of the hassle out of charging my batteries. I simply plug it in the minute I get the boat all tucked away in the garage, and come out a few hours later and unplug it. If you have to go through a hassle of connecting each individual battery in order to charge it, it can sometimes lead to not charging your batteries immediately after getting home. The quicker you can get your batteries on a charger after using them, the longer your batteries are going to last. 

Anyhow ..... glad I could help.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Bassbme said:


> I simply plug it in the minute I get the boat all tucked away in the garage, *and come out a few hours later and unplug it*.


I don't believe you should need to unplug most onboard chargers. The new "smart chargers" are meant to be plugged in after a day of fishing and just left on until the next trip.
Unless I'm out fishing, my boat stays plugged in.


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## large6er (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks again Bass for the great info. I do have an onboard battery charger for the the trolling motor (12 volt single bank) and as Crappiedude stated the instructions for the charger said to just leave it plugged in all the time. The instructions even said you can overwinter the battery in place and the charger will maintain the health of the battery over that time.

NEW QUESTION:

If I am hooking up two batteries to my 12 volt T/M do I need to get a 2 bank onboard charger for those batteries or do I still use my single bank charger??


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## James F (Jul 2, 2005)

From what I have read on here and on Manufacturers sites You should use 1 bank for each battery, no matter how they are hooked up(i.e.) parallel or series. Some of these new chargers really take the guess work out of maintaining your batteries, the biggest advantage is in getting a clean charge to the batteries. Clean energy will give not only better performance but also longer battery life, the same also goes for your electronics. Most have all the features built in to protect all of your equipment.One other thing to keep in mind is you get what you pay for.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

large6er said:


> NEW QUESTION:
> 
> If I am hooking up two batteries to my 12 volt T/M do I need to get a 2 bank onboard charger for those batteries or do I still use my single bank charger??


I'm no battery guru but I'll add my $.02. I'm currently running the same set up as you are going to with a 12v TM and 2 batteries plus a 3rd battery for starting the OB.

Technically you could just use the same charger and do the job it would just take longer to do. If you go that route I would suggest hooking 1 leg of the charger to the + of one battery and hook the other leg to the - of the other battery. It will charge more evenly.

For my initial set up I found some battery cables at an automotive store I used to connect the 2 batteries together. Automotive stores have a pretty good selection in lengths of cables so you should be able to find a size that fits your setup pretty close.

What I think would be a better option would be to change to a 3 bank charger with 2 legs going to the TM batteries and 1 leg going to the starting battery. In todays world the starting battery gets a continuous work out with everything it has hooked to it. (eg bilge & livewell pumps, running lights, electronics ect.) I guess another option would be to just add a 2nd onboard charger like a 2 bank and use it for your TM batteries and use your single for the starting battery.

Someone mentioned not hooking electronics to the TM battery and I agree. The problem with hooking everything up together is the possibility of electronic interference. Even though I have my TM batteries separate from my electronics, my TM still talks to my depth finders. I've eliminated some of the interference but I still have a little that I can't quite get rid of. I can't imaging what would happen if I had it all hooked together. Todays electronics are just more sensitive than they were years ago. One other option some guys use is to add a 4th smaller battery (like for a lawn tractor) for electronics use only. 

For me, all 3 of my batteries are 29 series Everstart Maxx batteries. I've had them in for 3 1/2 years and this past weekend was the 1st time I've seen any sign of weakness. It was pretty windy out and of course I found some decent fish in a spot that was being hit by the full force of the wind. More than likely it's time to change the batteries but I'll give it one more try before replacing them. 
I've tried a lot of different batteries over the years and I will be putting the Everstart Maxx batteries back in my boat again when it's time to replace them. I will also note that this is the 1 time I've ever got more than 3 years from a set of batteries.

I run a 3 bank BPS 15 amp onboard battery charger, 5 amps per bank. My only regret is I wish I had bought a larger charger. I will also note I've never had that 15 amp charger fail to charge the batteries overnight even on trips where well fish all day everyday.

Good luck with your set up.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

crappiedude said:


> I don't believe you should need to unplug most onboard chargers. The new "smart chargers" are meant to be plugged in after a day of fishing and just left on until the next trip.
> Unless I'm out fishing, my boat stays plugged in.


Agreed .... the new "smart chargers" can be left plugged in. My apologies for the brain lock. I was describing what I have to do. My charger isn't a "smart charger". It was ordered with, and was factory installed in the boat when it was new in 1997. If it ever dies, I'll have to buy one of the smart chargers. But until then I'll just keep having to go out and unplug it. lol 

Again ..... my apologies for the brain lock 

BTW .... if you're interested in the brand of charger I have, it's a Dual Pro made by Charging Systems International. And based on the service life of my current one, it will be the brand I buy once this one finally gives up the ghost.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Bassbme said:


> Again ..... my apologies for the brain lock


No need for apologies, conditions change and everyone's equipment is different. Everything else you mentioned was spot on.

Have you ever thought about adding a simple timer to your set up? I just added the smart charger a few years ago and before that I used a std 10 amp auto battery charger. I had a cheap little timer I plugged in during the winter months and it would turn on my charger for 30 minutes or so per day. I could add a little charge with out fear of over charging. 
I added the timer because a few times I went to add a little charge to the idle batteries and I would forget I had the charger on for up to several days.
I'm not sure if it would work in your situation but I thought I'd throw it out there.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

Crappiedude ... your timer idea is OUTSTANDING, and something that I'm a little embarrassed to say ... I never thought of. I'll definitely be getting one in the very near future. With the onset of winter it's going to come in very handy. I won't have to shovel a path to my garage just so I can plug my charger in for a few hours every couple of weeks.

I thank you, and my back thanks you !!!

I love this place..... it can really teach an old dog a new trick. 

Thanks again !!!

Oh ..... and directed at no one in particular and for no reason other than to correct a another brain fart in an earlier post. My old trolling motor was 17 years old when it died ..... not 7.


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## large6er (Sep 1, 2013)

I have really coaxed some good info out of you guys on this thread. After reading your post I think I will move my single bank to my starting/main battery and invest in a 2 bank and for the trolling motor. Now the trick will be slipping 3 new batteries and a battery charger past the Wife. That may have to be her Christmas gift to me  I just won't tell her about the new diawa line counting reels and lures that will be making there way into boat.


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

large6er said:


> Now the trick will be slipping 3 new batteries and a battery charger past the Wife. That may have to be her Christmas gift to me


We wish you a Merry Christmas ... we wish you a Merry Christmas LOL 

glad we could help


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