# Odnr why won't you listen????



## Lundfish

The Spring has brought forth fishable rivers. The Winter had unfishable rivers for approximately 2 months due to cold frozen rivers. During the Fall before the ice we had many many days of fishable waters.

Our Ohio waters are not Michigan spring fed rivers. They are runoff muddy rivers. The ODNR has decided to stock our rivers with a Michigan strain of steelhead. That strain thrives in Michigan as it's been bread year after year in the same waters. 

The ODNR gets the fertilized eggs from Michigan steelhead that run up Michigan rivers. The ODNR then hatches and raises the Michigan strain in Cold Creek. They then dump the Michigan strain into muddy rivers just before the water gets too warm to support them. The fish then run out into Lake Erie, a TOTALLY different eco system than Lake Michigan which is where the eggs are originally from.

Then we expect to have a good fishery when the rivers are locked up? When the water is unfishable due to muddy runoff? When the water temps are too warm to support life for a year in the stream?

Is there one single person reading this post that thinks this is a good idea to stock a spring run fish in Ohio?

Bombard the ODNR with emails and tell them that you are not happy.

[email protected]

They work for us!!!! They will tell you that the Michigan strain has a higher return rate. That may be true but it's in the SPRING!!!!! They spawn and get out because it's too hot!

We could've had a good season if they gave a crap about what the guy that fishes thinks! They don't seem to care at all.

Flood his email box and maybe they will care.


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## creekcrawler

Sorry, too much misinformation in your statement.

Sorry, I won't flood Mr. Kayle's inbox with an opinion that is far less educated than his.

The reason they went with Manistee strain is because they have a very much higher success rate with them as opposed to the old London strain hatchery trout.
Although I did like the fact that the old London's ran equally well in the fall as in the spring (about 50/50), the state gets more bang for their buck with Manistees.

Sounds to me like your more upset with the weather this year more than anything else. If you want fall run fish, go to Pa. or at least stay further east.

I'd just as soon they backed off the steel stocking and stocked more musky and sturgeon, which are native. They stock way too much steel as it is.


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## Lundfish

creekcrawler said:


> Sorry, too much misinformation in your statement.
> 
> Sorry, I won't flood Mr. Kayle's inbox with an opinion that is far less educated than his.
> 
> The reason they went with Manistee strain is because they have a very much higher success rate with them as opposed to the old London strain hatchery trout.
> Although I did like the fact that the old London's ran equally well in the fall as in the spring (about 50/50), the state gets more bang for their buck with Manistees.
> 
> Sounds to me like your more upset with the weather this year more than anything else. If you want fall run fish, go to Pa. or at least stay further east.
> 
> I'd just as soon they backed off the steel stocking and stocked more musky and sturgeon, which are native. They stock way too much steel as it is.


Misinformation? Where? State what is wrong and/or untrue or your statement of misinformation in invalid.

If you want more musky and sturgeon then post in the appropriate section.


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## rickerd

ODNR won't listen because Ohio trades catfish for steelhead eggs and saves a bunch of money. I wish we could separate all trout budgets by having a trout stamp and fee to control it better. That's a suggestion I'm willing to make. 

I know where you are going and yes steelhead fishing was more consistent Fall to Spring when the New London fish existed with the Mannistees. It's just too much money to make that happen again. 

I think what hurts our program more now is the 5 fish limit during the Summer. It should be no more than 3 because there are not nearly as many steelhead in the lake as there are walleye. Our steelhead program was started by a bunch of guys in OCBS and a governor who is a fisherman. 
The program was never meant to provide enough meat for a five fish limit on Erie.

Rickerd


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## Salmonid

Lund, its all about return on investment. The old London strain bows if my memory serves me , was around 4 fish per hundred stocked returning while the Manistee stain is more like 26-28 ( I think that's the number but don't quote me, I was pretty instrumental with TU when that switch took place) 

You are correct, the Ohio stocked fish are mainly a Spring fish while the PA fish are mainly a fall fish, the states work in cooperation and are overstocking from both sides to make a decent fishery in the Fall for us but a steller Spring fishery while Pa is the opposite. 
I might add that Michigan trades us the brooders and or eggs for Channel cats raised here so that is another reason why this deal is being done. 

Ill have to agree that it sounds like the weather is more to blame then anything for your lack of fishing luck. Suppose the Fall was washed out and we had a long perfect semi dry spring? I don't think youd be making these comments now. 

Last point is ODNR will NOT do something just because they get flooded with emails/calls, etc. Im pretty sure they know that folks would like a heavy fall or even a winter migrating bow but the cost to add and separate them would only hurt the spring fishery/ In other words state can only support so many steelies, lets say its 100,000 fish for easy math, those all go towards a spring run, if the state switched to 50,000 fall and 50,000 spring runners, then Im pretty sure youd be bitching because the spring run hardly has any fish and the fall run is nothing like the spring run used to be, etc. 

Bottom lne is money, space, time and effort to do a major changeup on the program just would never happen. Be glad we have a waaay over stocked program now because as funding shrinks, Im pretty sure the steelhead program will be one of the first to start cutting fish numbers.

Oh yeah, Ive known Kevin for many years and he is a great asset for us, the anglers....

Salmonid


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## creekcrawler

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood.



> The Winter had unfishable rivers for approximately 2 months due to cold frozen rivers. During the Fall before the ice we had many many days of fishable waters.


True. For *this* year. I remember falls that were no good because of lack of rains & I remember winters that were fishable almost the entire winter.



> Our Ohio waters are not Michigan spring fed rivers. They are runoff muddy rivers. The ODNR has decided to stock our rivers with a Michigan strain of steelhead. That strain thrives in Michigan as it's been bread year after year in the same waters.


You are right. But Manistees thrive here better than old "London strain" do.



> They spawn and get out because it's too hot!


No. They spawn and drop back to the lake. All trout will. Fall spawners don't necessarily hang around any longer after spawning. 
Doesn't matter what you stock in our muddy rivers, they won't reproduce in any amount worth worrying about. Although Manistees do have a better chance to reproduce in our waters. Michigan strain steelhead are far more adapted to this area than any other strains, *because* they have survived and prospered in nearby Michigan for so long they are far more adapted to this area than any west coast steel.



> They then dump the Michigan strain into muddy rivers just before the water gets too warm to support them. The fish then run out into Lake Erie


Sorta correct. Any strain of steel they stock are *smolts*. You won't catch them immediately after stocking, if you do they will be 6-8" long. Any strain will run for the lake for the summer. Although Lake Erie is a different environment than Lake Michigan, steelhead thrive in Lake Erie. There is way more forage for them here in Lake Erie. Manistees are better adapted to a lake run system than the old "london strain" fish, which were just hatchery rainbow trout.



> When the water is unfishable due to muddy runoff?


?? This happens in the fall just as often as the spring.



> water temps are too warm to support life for a year in the stream?


So it doesn't matter what type of steelhead you stock, they all go to the lake in the summer.


Sorry, still seems like you're complaining more about fishing _*conditions*_ than the strain of fish.

AND, I do agree with you, I liked the old London strain better. They are gentically "programmed" to split their spawning about 50/50 between the fall and spring, where as Manistees are more inclined to spawn in the spring
although some will spawn in the fall.

BUT, I cannot complain about the state's stocking program. They have fellows with much more education than we do to make these decisions.


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## Lundfish

creekcrawler said:


> Sorry, maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> 
> True. For *this* year. I remember falls that were no good because of lack of rains & I remember winters that were fishable almost the entire winter.
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. But Manistees thrive here better than old "London strain" do.
> 
> 
> No. They spawn and drop back to the lake. All trout will. Fall spawners don't necessarily hang around any longer after spawning.
> Doesn't matter what you stock in our muddy rivers, they won't reproduce in any amount worth worrying about. Although Manistees do have a better chance to reproduce in our waters. Michigan strain steelhead are far more adapted to this area than any other strains, *because* they have survived and prospered in nearby Michigan for so long they are far more adapted to this area than any west coast steel.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorta correct. Any strain of steel they stock are *smolts*. You won't catch them immediately after stocking, if you do they will be 6-8" long. Any strain will run for the lake for the summer. Although Lake Erie is a different environment than Lake Michigan, steelhead thrive in Lake Erie. There is way more forage for them here in Lake Erie. Manistees are better adapted to a lake run system than the old "london strain" fish, which were just hatchery rainbow trout.
> 
> 
> ?? This happens in the fall just as often as the spring.
> 
> 
> So it doesn't matter what type of steelhead you stock, they all go to the lake in the summer.
> 
> 
> Sorry, still seems like you're complaining more about fishing _*conditions*_ than the strain of fish.
> 
> AND, I do agree with you, I liked the old London strain better. They are gentically "programmed" to split their spawning about 50/50 between the fall and spring, where as Manistees are more inclined to spawn in the spring
> although some will spawn in the fall.
> 
> BUT, I cannot complain about the state's stocking program. They have fellows with much more education than we do to make these decisions.


Here's the deal. The Michigan rivers and Lake Michigan are 100% different than what we have here. 

Lake Michigan is deeper and colder all over the place compared to Lake Erie. 

The rivers in MI especially on the West Coast are spring fed rivers. As far as the rivers go, do you honestly believe that when MI stocks those rivers that the smolts immediately go out to Lake Michigan? Why would they? They have cool water. Some stay in the rivers their entire lives! That doesn't happen in OH. Also, there is a LOT of natural reproduction in MI. That's because after a successful spawn, the young of the year can stay in the stream...then run out to the lake a year later. How's that for an imprint?

I'm not a biologist but at the same time I have common sense. Perhaps they could make a London strain that adapts to Lake Erie, comes into the rivers and spawns. Then we take year after year the eggs and milt from the trout that have been through the cycle.

MI Manistee is surely not the answer. I personally believe that they have their own agenda and they don't care ONE BIT about what we think. There's someone making bad decisions over and over at the ODNR. Kinda like giving everyone health care at my expense. Government at it's finest.


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## mdogs444

Lundfish said:


> Here's the deal. The Michigan rivers and Lake Michigan are 100% different than what we have here.
> 
> Lake Michigan is deeper and colder all over the place compared to Lake Erie.


Lets not forget - steelhead are not native to Ohio in any way, shape, or form. Much of the decision is based on money, ROI, and how many fish will come back here instead of migrating east to return in PA/NY.


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## Lundfish

mdogs444 said:


> Lets not forget - steelhead are not native to Ohio in any way, shape, or form. Much of the decision is based on money, ROI, and how many fish will come back here instead of migrating east to return in PA/NY.


I agree they aren't native...they aren't native in MI either but they thrive. I also realize that it's impossible for them to thrive in OH. However, it can be made better. For instance:

Who cares about how many come into the river if the fishing sucks? I sure don't care if a million spawners arrive in a one week window that won't bite. Wouldn't we all want to have a quarter million arrive and trickle in during the Fall so that we can at least fish?

I see no reason that it's important that more arrive if it's when water temps are so high they won't bite and have it last a week. We know this is how it happens. The big push is always in the Spring with these fish. Most of them don't hang out in the rivers through the winter. This is where the ODNR get their numbers.


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## mdogs444

I may just be the odd one out - but personally, I like fishing in the Fall/Winter when their are not that many fish because there are also not many people. The weather from mid December to Mid March generally sucks, with exceptions on some weird years (like 70 degrees in February 2 years ago), so the fishing is not prime in 32 degree water, no matter how many are in there.

Personally, I'm glad we don't have the kind of "Combat Fishing" that you see on Elk and Walnut in PA and Salmon River in NY.


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## dipthekid

mdogs444 said:


> I may just be the odd one out - but personally, I like fishing in the Fall/Winter when their are not that many fish because there are also not many people. The weather from mid December to Mid March generally sucks, with exceptions on some weird years (like 70 degrees in February 2 years ago), so the fishing is not prime in 32 degree water, no matter how many are in there.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad we don't have the kind of "Combat Fishing" that you see on Elk and Walnut in PA and Salmon River in NY.


+1 to that!


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## Lundfish

mdogs444 said:


> I may just be the odd one out - but personally, I like fishing in the Fall/Winter when their are not that many fish because there are also not many people. The weather from mid December to Mid March generally sucks, with exceptions on some weird years (like 70 degrees in February 2 years ago), so the fishing is not prime in 32 degree water, no matter how many are in there.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad we don't have the kind of "Combat Fishing" that you see on Elk and Walnut in PA and Salmon River in NY.


Yeah I don't disagree here about the combat fishing. It's been good the last couple of years in the winter. I like fishing that time also. But there is next to no Fall fishery in OH. In Michigan Fall fishing is hot for the same species and strain. Another reason the Manistee is not for OH.


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## mkormos23

Lundfish
Its pretty Obvious that you were not fishing for London's back in the 90's. if you did fish through the switch from London's to Mani's you would not be asking for the London's back. 
if you had the pressure back in the 90's( you didn't because of the lack of fish) as you do today fishing would have even been worse.
back in the 90's you could fish connie/bula during the week and only see a couple guys. 

trust me, you don't want the Londons back.

Did you ever think there just less fish around?
the lake guys are not catching the #'s of fish they did back in the early 2000's. 

Matt


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## Lundfish

mkormos23 said:


> Lundfish
> Its pretty Obvious that you were not fishing for London's back in the 90's. if you did fish through the switch from London's to Mani's you would not be asking for the London's back.
> if you had the pressure back in the 90's( you didn't because of the lack of fish) as you do today fishing would have even been worse.
> back in the 90's you could fish connie/bula during the week and only see a couple guys.
> 
> trust me, you don't want the Londons back.
> 
> Did you ever think there just less fish around?
> the lake guys are not catching the #'s of fish they did back in the early 2000's.
> 
> Matt


You're seriously the first person that I've talked to that fished the 'old days' and didn't catch a ton. Do you just cast spinners or something?


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## Salmonid

I used to fish for Londons, I remember after several tips actually seeing a dead one and for the first time in maybe 5-6 trips, actually seeing one and thinking, hey.. there are some in here!! also back in those days, we never saw another person, ever...of course back then you could wade everywhere and park everywhere withy no problems.. a times are changing... Steelie fishing nowadays reminds me of the Maumee run...... shoulder to shoulder idiots all trying to sneak inbetween you and your buddy after then see you catch one. 
I might add that back in those days is when we found all our best runs and stretches that for years no one was fishing then the internet and guides starting pimping out all the better spots and buying/renting access and was the start of the downfall in my opinion. 

Salmonid
PS fishing for Manistee's up in Michigan is typically a 1-2 fish long day and your lucky to land them. 
Salmonid


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## Lundfish

Salmonid said:


> Salmonid
> PS fishing for Manistee's up in Michigan is typically a 1-2 fish long day and your lucky to land them.
> Salmonid


Where are you fishing in mi where you only get 1-2 and are lucky to land them?

I don't know about either of you guys.


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## bwrpwr6

I know the last couple years has been hard both fall and spring. The fish don't seem to be there like thy used to be and they definitely don't stay as long. I'm no biologist by any means just point out what I've seen. I really loved the days where my group could go out and land 50 fish a day but those days are long gone. I will also add that I don't dislike the challenge now. It's more satisfying to me to work hard and have a 5 fish day. I'm just happy the odnr stocks any strain of steelhead. It gives me something to do when the deer hunting is slow and the turkeys quit gobbling. I will also add that all my MI trips are no where near as successful as a day on a ohio trib. It could be I just don't know the rivers like I do here. 


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## fishing pole

Keep fish native. Lose the steelhead. Stock small mouth.


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## lowhole4trowt

Lundfish said:


> Here's the deal. The Michigan rivers and Lake Michigan are 100% different than what we have here.
> 
> I'm not a biologist but at the same time I have common sense. Perhaps they could make a London strain that adapts to Lake Erie, comes into the rivers and spawns. Then we take year after year the eggs and milt from the trout that have been through the cycle.


Not much of a researcher either. There is no London "strain". The London hatchery from whose loins those fish came is CLOSED. WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION??? There is no sense in rallying a whole bunch of fisherman to complain to the ODNR without some sort of suggestion for the future. Misinformed complaining only gives the angler subculture a more negative connotation from the eyes of those viewing the complaints. If there is something wrong with our environment (dead zone in the lake, water temps etc) I would be very much interested in talking with people who know way more than I do about this and what effect it has on our fishery. As for senseless complaining about a spring run fish, count me out. 

ps with the hundreds of thousands it costs simply to maintain oxygen levels and remove nitrogen from water within the different stages of the hatchery process where do you propose we come up with more funds to do research on developing a new strain, if that is what you are suggesting? PPS, this same whining occurs in PA about guys only having a fall run fish and not a spring run fish. Which I don't know if you noticed but even their returns sucked this year for the most part. Ever try drifting a pool behind gravel during our "1 week push and spawn??" tighten up your wading belt and hold on because they most definitely eat during the push and spawn. 

So as not to offer only an objection to your complaints, here's something I found interesting from a Michigan DNR study on winter vs summer run. "Summer-run steelhead stocked into the St. Joseph River returned similarly to the port of St. Joseph (>40%), whereas, the winter-run strain was more widely distributed in open-lake returns and on average only 15% of these fish were recovered near the port of St. Joseph. Greater than 60% of the St. Joseph stocked winter-run fish were recovered between the ports of Ludington and Frankfort closer to the Manistee River (Table 3; Figure 1). " Hmmm it would appear these fish were not returning where they were stocked, but they were returning home....given that the eggs used in our program are first generation from the LM perhaps they too have a strong homing beacon for the LM. I have not done enough research to fully understand this but would be curious in talking to somebody who has regarding if it would make a difference to rear our eggs from Michigan, spawn them several times in Ohio waters, and then release those fish instead of first generation LM fish.

This, if possible, could potentially improve our return rates with a fish we already have versus trying to create some kind of "London" as you call it which is no longer in existence.


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## lowhole4trowt

Lundfish said:


> You're seriously the first person that I've talked to that fished the 'old days' and didn't catch a ton. Do you just cast spinners or something?


Ever take the time to talk to people from the 'old days' who mention off years and on years even back then...how this complaining is cyclic in and of itself? I'm speaking of guys who have been at it since the 70s and 80s, guys who are a pleasure to talk to and just *ENJOY* being out fishing. Hmm maybe environmental conditions have more to do with it than the strain of fish. Maybe not... Regardless, there are far more factors at play here than the strain itself. Perhaps that is why people dedicate their lives to maintaining and monitoring our fishery within the constraints they are allotted.

I hear racquet ball is a fun winter hobby...


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## Lundfish

lowhole4trowt said:


> Not much of a researcher either. There is no London "strain". The London hatchery from whose loins those fish came is CLOSED. WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION??? There is no sense in rallying a whole bunch of fisherman to complain to the ODNR without some sort of suggestion for the future. Misinformed complaining only gives the angler subculture a more negative connotation from the eyes of those viewing the complaints. If there is something wrong with our environment (dead zone in the lake, water temps etc) I would be very much interested in talking with people who know way more than I do about this and what effect it has on our fishery. As for senseless complaining about a spring run fish, count me out.
> 
> ps with the hundreds of thousands it costs simply to maintain oxygen levels and remove nitrogen from water within the different stages of the hatchery process where do you propose we come up with more funds to do research on developing a new strain, if that is what you are suggesting? PPS, this same whining occurs in PA about guys only having a fall run fish and not a spring run fish. Which I don't know if you noticed but even their returns sucked this year for the most part. Ever try drifting a pool behind gravel during our "1 week push and spawn??" tighten up your wading belt and hold on because they most definitely eat during the push and spawn.
> 
> So as not to offer only an objection to your complaints, here's something I found interesting from a Michigan DNR study on winter vs summer run. "Summer-run steelhead stocked into the St. Joseph River returned similarly to the port of St. Joseph (>40%), whereas, the winter-run strain was more widely distributed in open-lake returns and on average only 15% of these fish were recovered near the port of St. Joseph. Greater than 60% of the St. Joseph stocked winter-run fish were recovered between the ports of Ludington and Frankfort closer to the Manistee River (Table 3; Figure 1). " Hmmm it would appear these fish were not returning where they were stocked, but they were returning home....given that the eggs used in our program are first generation from the LM perhaps they too have a strong homing beacon for the LM. I have not done enough research to fully understand this but would be curious in talking to somebody who has regarding if it would make a difference to rear our eggs from Michigan, spawn them several times in Ohio waters, and then release those fish instead of first generation LM fish.
> 
> This, if possible, could potentially improve our return rates with a fish we already have versus trying to create some kind of "London" as you call it which is no longer in existence.


I realize what a "London" is and that it's not the actual strain but is even referred to as the London strain by the dnr. I also know that it's 100% nonexistent.

I swear guys like you just come on here to argue for no apparent reason. Backing up the ODNR as tax and license dollars well spent. BS if I was happy with a Ford Escort why ever get a Cadillac? That is a poverty mentality.

One thing in your post made sense and that is to take the broodstock from Lake Erie and use it over and over instead of directly from Lake Michigan.

Not once have I talked to ANYONE on the river from the old days that is happy with how things have been since our "All Knowing ODNR" decided to spend our tax dollars so "wisely" and stock a spring run fish.

Here's a suggestion; Stock them both. Produce broodstock ourselves and become self sustaining.

I'm a member of a trout club and they don't seem to have a problem doing it. Oh but I forgot there are soooo many dollars as you say to put oxygen and remove nitrogen that it must take soooo much out of the budget to do just that! Funny in the old days all they used was a waterfall.

Do you see or have you heard anything from the ODNR or elsewhere that the ODNR is looking for something better? I sure haven't. They're happy with the mediocrity which IMO is a lot less than mediocrity. They spent all that money on a new hatchery for what? To continue doing what we have been for the last 10 years?

Yeah they're doing it all right. Big brother knows best. No public input except for the elite few.


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## GABO

Just do what myself and a buddy do. Go spend your money in MI. Might be the state up north but by far a more beautiful, amazing, game stuffed state then Ohio. All my vacation time is reserved for spending my time and money up there. I think everyone should try it and then come back here and see how bad things are (besides deer size)


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## jiggin'fool

I caught 4 on Monday! Lol not 50 but I was happy! 

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## jiggin'fool

Here is a pic of one!

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## lowhole4trowt

Lundfish said:


> I realize what a "London" is and that it's not the actual strain but is even referred to as the London strain by the dnr. I also know that it's 100% nonexistent.
> 
> I swear guys like you just come on here to argue for no apparent reason. Backing up the ODNR as tax and license dollars well spent. BS if I was happy with a Ford Escort why ever get a Cadillac? That is a poverty mentality.
> 
> One thing in your post made sense and that is to take the broodstock from Lake Erie and use it over and over instead of directly from Lake Michigan.
> 
> Not once have I talked to ANYONE on the river from the old days that is happy with how things have been since our "All Knowing ODNR" decided to spend our tax dollars so "wisely" and stock a spring run fish.
> 
> Here's a suggestion; Stock them both. Produce broodstock ourselves and become self sustaining.
> 
> I'm a member of a trout club and they don't seem to have a problem doing it. Oh but I forgot there are soooo many dollars as you say to put oxygen and remove nitrogen that it must take soooo much out of the budget to do just that! Funny in the old days all they used was a waterfall.
> 
> Do you see or have you heard anything from the ODNR or elsewhere that the ODNR is looking for something better? I sure haven't. They're happy with the mediocrity which IMO is a lot less than mediocrity. They spent all that money on a new hatchery for what? To continue doing what we have been for the last 10 years?
> 
> Yeah they're doing it all right. Big brother knows best. No public input except for the elite few.


The apparent reason is the fact that this opinion and opinions like it are ruining other people's experiences on the river. I could care less how you feel the ODNR is stabbing you in the back and plotting some evil scheme to ruin steelhead fishing for the anglers. However, seeing new fisherman with these same negative attitudes on the river day in and day out is a downright shame. 
When I started steelhead fishing 1 fish in a weeks worth of fishing was awesome and I couldn't have been happier. With negativity like this I see more and more people miserable while fishing. Up and comers are being taught that if they dont catch 10 fish its a miserable day and its not what it used to be. Share your senseless negativity with your fellow Michigan anglers who must be having the best seasons of their lives year after year there is no need for it on our Ohio waters. Having an angler population who hates steelhead fishing because it sucks is not going to solve anything. Maybe introduce people to the excitement of hooking one of these fish, the fun of being outdoors and not in the office, or whatever it may be and they will eventually develop a positive passion and concern for the fishery. 

Look up the apparatus used in the hatchery not too far from your trout club as it pertains to water filtration and such and perhaps seeing the dollar amount on that bad boy will convince you of the soooo much money it takes to even do this process.


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## Lundfish

GABO said:


> Just do what myself and a buddy do. Go spend your money in MI. Might be the state up north but by far a more beautiful, amazing, game stuffed state then Ohio. All my vacation time is reserved for spending my time and money up there. I think everyone should try it and then come back here and see how bad things are (besides deer size)


Yep I don't think most of these guys have a clue. Try the UP for deer. There are big ones there. Not as many salmon/steelhead as the lower but still fun.


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## spectrum

Lundfish said:


> Is there one single person reading this post that thinks this is a good idea to stock a spring run fish in Ohio?


I like fishing in the spring, there's less Leaf fish in the river!

Personally I think the manstie's have made it a lot better fishery. I used to go out to conneaut all the time back in the 90's because I couldn't catch a steel in rocky for the life of me. Now I don't fish anywhere else but rocky, even on the worst days I can pull at least one. And that's including the fall.
There's a reason Rocky river is one of the top rated steelhead streams in the country. I'm pretty sure it wasn't that way 10-20 years ago.

Ps. I can catch steelhead in the river from late Sept all the way to the begining of may. So their there!

It sucks the river has been froze up during the winter, I just took advantage of the situation and hit lake erie for walleye.


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## Lundfish

lowhole4trowt said:


> The apparent reason is the fact that this opinion and opinions like it are ruining other people's experiences on the river.


Really? Going out fishing and not catching anything because of opinions is ruining the day? Unreal. Not catching fish is!



lowhole4trowt said:


> I could care less how you feel the ODNR is stabbing you in the back and plotting some evil scheme to ruin steelhead fishing for the anglers. However, seeing new fisherman with these same negative attitudes on the river day in and day out is a downright shame.
> When I started steelhead fishing 1 fish in a weeks worth of fishing was awesome and I couldn't have been happier. With negativity like this I see more and more people miserable while fishing. Up and comers are being taught that if they dont catch 10 fish its a miserable day and its not what it used to be. Share your senseless negativity with your fellow Michigan anglers who must be having the best seasons of their lives year after year there is no need for it on our Ohio waters. Having an angler population who hates steelhead fishing because it sucks is not going to solve anything. Maybe introduce people to the excitement of hooking one of these fish, the fun of being outdoors and not in the office, or whatever it may be and they will eventually develop a positive passion and concern for the fishery.
> 
> Look up the apparatus used in the hatchery not too far from your trout club as it pertains to water filtration and such and perhaps seeing the dollar amount on that bad boy will convince you of the soooo much money it takes to even do this process.


I don't feel that the ODNR is stabbing me in the back. I did not state that and it's nice how you put it that way as I didn't say anything even close to it. I stated that they are spending OUR money poorly for their own agenda.

Now I understand why you say what you do. Weeks for one fish? Amazing how some people can grasp what is going on under the water and some can't. Some get it right away and others it takes a lot longer. Now I see why you have this point of view. Like I said it's a poverty mentality.

If you see all these anglers that think that if they don't catch 10 because of views like mine I doubt it's actually because of views like mine. I'm happy with 5  However I'm not happy when they're all skippers. I don't even count them.

We all have bad days of fishing. However we don't all have bad days on a consistent basis. There is a problem and by blinding yourself that there isn't is part of it.


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## lowhole4trowt

I will conclude my involvement in this thread by stating I do not think a spring run fish is the problem. Is it our muddy rivers? Lake level? Lake temperature? algae bloom? Could be any of the above or countless others. You can't read into the bigger picture by looking at a pinpoint. As someone who thoroughly enjoys our fishery (lake and river) and has from a young age I will continue to attempt to gain knowledge on any issues that may be affecting it and what I can do to help them. Writing an email to the ODNR demanding a different fish is simply not my view of solving any problems here. 

Yes in my particular situation it took a while to figure out the fish themselves. That makes it more both more rewarding and more satisfying to be able to get at least 1 or 2 each time out, and I enjoy that no matter what the conditions. 

Plenty of people go out and do not catch a single fish in a day. What I am saying is by offering this sort of argument you are actually ruining their experiences and potential for future success. A beginner who goes out and doesn't catch a fish is more likely to think, "I'm not catching anything because these spring run fish aren't here or they suck." Vs maybe I need to change my setup or focus more on how to catch the fish that are in the system which leads to a more gratifying reaction once they do get into some. Personally I am glad I was unaware of all this complaining when I first started because I feel I would not have developed the passion for the sport which I currently hold and attempt to pass on to those I fish with.

Tight Lines hopefully you have many 5 fish days this spring.


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## dealm9

Forget strains. If your enjoyment of fishing comes only from the number and size of the fish you catch you should find a new hobby.


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## Siskiefu

dealm9 said:


> Forget strains. If your enjoyment of fishing comes only from the number and size of the fish you catch you should find a new hobby.


What is the purpose of fishing if it's not to catch fish? What is wrong with wanting to catch as many fish as you can that are of decent size?


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## Bigjoe

Siskiefu said:


> What is the purpose of fishing if it's not to catch fish? What is wrong with wanting to catch as many fish as you can that are of decent size?


The purpose is to enjoy getting out with just you and your thoughts sometimes. Hate to say but there are times I just 'fish' with a sinker cause I have some things I need to figure out without distractions. Fishing isn't just about catching, it's also about relaxing, getting out and doing something you enjoy.


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## Siskiefu

Bigjoe said:


> The purpose is to enjoy getting out with just you and your thoughts sometimes. Hate to say but there are times I just 'fish' with a sinker cause I have some things I need to figure out without distractions. Fishing isn't just about catching, it's also about relaxing, getting out and doing something you enjoy.


Never denied any of that, but simply telling someone to find a new hobby is ignorant of the fact that we all fish to catch fish. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. 

Quite frankly if you're not actively trying to catch fish then how can you constitute calling that fishing? 

Is sitting in your car parked in your garage driving?


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## bereafish

I,ll take skippers over creek chubs and suckers all day.


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## Siskiefu

bereafish said:


> I,ll take skippers over creek chubs and suckers all day.


Based off our season so far, those suckers might be more fun than you'd expect lol.


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## Net

Siskiefu said:


> What is the purpose of fishing if it's not to catch fish? What is wrong with wanting to catch as many fish as you can that are of decent size?


When I was introduced to fishing by my father, fishing was all about getting to spend quality "alone" time with dad after all the chores and homework were done. As I grew up and started fishing solo it was more about the peace & quiet of nature and challenging myself to improve. My 2 cents.


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## Siskiefu

Net said:


> When I was introduced to fishing by my father, fishing was all about getting to spend quality "alone" time with dad after all the chores and homework were done. As I grew up and started fishing solo it was more about the peace & quiet of nature and challenging myself to improve. My 2 cents.


I'm not saying catching fish is the ONLY reason to fish. There are plenty of other benefits, but catching fish is the underlying reason to fish. My two cents as well.


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## Net

Agreed. But when you try to boil it all down to just catching fish it can leave a bad taste in some people's mouth. Almost like you are validating what many are saying about today's culture. Greed, high stakes competition, me first mentality. When the pursuit of fishing stops being fun I'll most likely pick up golf.


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## Siskiefu

Agreed also. It just didn't sit well to see someone suggest a new hobby simply because a guy wanted a better fishery. It is what is is  ready for the weather to be consistently warm so I can stare out the window from the office wishing I could fish lol


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## Net

Same here man. Take care.


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## creekcrawler

Look at it this way - If they went back to stocking hatchery fish (London strain, or whatever), the cost is much higher. So, instead of stocking 400,000 or 500,000
fish, stockings would go back towards the older 100,000 numbers.
Couple that with the poorer return rates of the hatchery fish, you'd end up with *way lower* steelhead numbers.
So, you would have some spring run fish, but numbers of fish would drop very drastically.


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## Lundfish

Now we're talking about reasons to fish?

Some might like to sit down and watch a sinker but I want to catch fish! I want to catch bigger fish!

Sure fishing and catching a skunk is better than sitting at home and watching tv. We all have our opinions and reasons we fish. I find it very rewarding being alone or with a friend and landing and huge hog and not seeing a soul...rather than not catching anything and not seeing a soul.

Those are my priorities. I constantly am thinking about what those fish and my lure or bait are doing in the water. Not the BS I have to deal with when I'm not fishing.


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## mdogs444

I think a lot of people here want what is just not possible given the environment that we're in. With all the cutbacks in state budget, and given the quality/depth of Lake Erie versus that of Lake Michigan and Lake Superior, the fact is that we just will not have the type of big game, big return fisheries that they have.

I am going to the Dean River in BC with April Vokey as a guide in August 2014, and looking to move to western Montana in order to feed my fishing addiction. I know full well that no matter what the state of Ohio does, it'll never be what I want it to be.


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## Siskiefu

Consider me jealous when I read April Vokey in your post 


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## spectrum

Ah, Gotta love transition time! No safe ice, can't launch a boat, can't fish from shore, and hard to fish in the river because the water temps are not high enough for a active bite. 

And fishermen are going bonkers!

Welcome to Ohio!

Now let put things into perspective. 
I am no expert on things and I've never been steel fishing in Michigan or anywhere else except for ohio, but I can make some educational observations from some of the stuff that was discussed in this thread.

1. comparing michigan steel fishing to ohio is apples to bananas. From what I've heard michigan rivers are condusive for trout to spawn in. Add natural reproduction to stocking efforts and it should make more fish. Ohio rivers with maybe the exception of conneaut do not offer much if any natural reproduction. What you put in is what you get.

2. The main goal of any steel stocking efforts is to give river fisherman the chance to catch one of these fish. It's *your issue *when you wanna do it. Logically if I was odnr I would want to put a fish in there that has a greater return rate then the previous fish. They aren't stocking these fish just so people with boats can catch them out in the open lake. (we got walleye for that)

3. I actually haven't gone steel fishing this year (company always likes to work me 50-60 hours a week in the fall/spring), so I'm not to sure how it's going but from the forum, people who know what their doing have been catching them. The populations of steel might be down to many things. Ex. Lampery populations are on the rise and odnr has a plan to start combating that this spring. Ex.2 There is a massive number big walleye class out in erie right now; And what is coming out of the rivers right as the big walleye are moving east...8-10inch steel smolts.(reason why pink panties reef runnner kills them in front of rocky river in june)
and I'm sure there's more.

In conclution,
I love the maistee's, much more aggressive fish, and better fighters. I've had times where I've hit london strains in the nose with all kinds of baits and they just sit there. Now If I see a fish and I don't spook 'em I know I can catch him.

The steel is out there, you just need to go out and figure it out. There have been day's I've gotten skunked, usually on my first trips, because I get to the river and my holes have changed. Then there are days where I've caught 10+, after I figure out what has changed.

Things change and there are a hell of a lot if fishermen out there then there ever was before, but if you feel like walking a bit there is always new things to find.

Also, given that there will be billions of dollars to stop the asian carp from hitting the great lakes, I bet there's going to be a lot of changes.... Go out and enjoy things while you can!!!!!


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## lowhole4trowt

Lundfish said:


> I don't feel that the ODNR is stabbing me in the back. I did not state that and it's nice how you put it that way as I didn't say anything even close to it. I stated that they are spending OUR money poorly for their own agenda.


Wait sorry I couldn't help myself reading back through this...what exactly is their own agenda? I anxiously await your response.


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## whjr15

dealm9 said:


> If your enjoyment of fishing comes only from the number and size of the fish you catch you should find a new hobby.


BINGO! Post of the year!


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## ldrjay

lowhole4trowt said:


> Wait sorry I couldn't help myself reading back through this...what exactly is their own agenda? I anxiously await your response.


If their agenda is collecting my license and permit money and letting me hunt and fish all these great areas with no shortage of game and fish well sir I approve of the agenda. 

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## Lundfish

lowhole4trowt said:


> Wait sorry I couldn't help myself reading back through this...what exactly is their own agenda? I anxiously await your response.


I believe that they have people running the program who do not fish. Research only goes so far. They're saving money by exchanging catfish eggs for a fish that doesn't work well for the Ohio rivers and Lake Erie as stated in previous posts. That is unless your objective is to just get outside and enjoy scenery and not actually catch fish...like some guys on this FISHING forum.

So, to narrow it down; they'll spend money to revamp a hatchery to raise cheap fish eggs but won't spend money on eggs (fish) that won't have to endure being in an icy river to stage for spawning in the spring.

And how much are they actually saving?


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## Flathead76

I have two problems with our DNR steelhead stocking programs. First why spend our licence dollars on something with limited stream access? Alot of the water these fish migrate and stay all winter is private property. The law states that the land owner owns all the dirt to the center of the river. Unless there are plans to make it so the law states as long as you are wading you are not trespassing why spend our licence money on stocking all these fish? I can understand why property owners do not like steelhead fisherman. We have lost access to areas because of some who are complete slobs leaving thier trash behind on the banks.

Second why does the state keep stocking steelhead with our perch population plummeting? What do they think that this non native species eats? I can remember when there was good perch fishing on Erie. Right now even if you get your limit of 30 perch by the time you pay for bait and gas it would be much cheaper to just buy them from the netters. Plus when you are done you still have to clean those perch.


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## bereafish

A lot more fishermen and a lot less catch and release does not help either. Why not make the limit 1. If you really must eat them.


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## master of steel

It doesn't matter whether you stock a fall or spring run fish, because Ohio's streams are not suited for trout. Nearly all of them have little to no sources of groundwater and are too silty for natural reproduction. Everybody knows that Lake Erie steelhead don't imprint well on the stream of their stocking. They wander all over the lake. During the fall we're mostly catching PA fish. 

People forget that Steelhead Alley has more steelhead per mile than any other streams in the lower 48 states. Ask a steelheader fishing in the Northwest, they would be thrilled at the thought of catching five fish in an outing. We have it so good here, that we sometimes take it for granted.

Believe me you wouldn't want the London's coming back, they were a terrible strain. After a lot of consideration ODNR felt the Manistee gave them the best bang for the buck.


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## Carver

Is it a good idea to stock trout in any stream in Ohio? I mean are there any real trout streams in this state? Wouldn't it make more sense to stock smallmouth or other species who would live longer and actually produce off spring?


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## master of steel

Carver said:


> Is it a good idea to stock trout in any stream in Ohio? I mean are there any real trout streams in this state? Wouldn't it make more sense to stock smallmouth or other species who would live longer and actually produce off spring?


The reason the state stocks steelhead is to enhance the state's fishery. Steelhead are one of the few fish we can fish for during the winter months.


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## Carver

I understand. Isn't the steelhead classified as a salmon?
I live in southeastern Ohio along the Ohio river. All of our streams here are smallmouth streams. But just across the river in West Virginia and Pennsylvania they stock the same type of streams with trout. They don't do well in the warm, slow moving streams we have here.


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## ldrjay

If I'm not mistaken the upper chagrin has natural brook trout I believe. 

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## reo

Flathead76 said:


> I have two problems with our DNR steelhead stocking programs. First why spend our licence dollars on something with limited stream access? Alot of the water these fish migrate and stay all winter is private property. The law states that the land owner owns all the dirt to the center of the river. Unless there are plans to make it so the law states as long as you are wading you are not trespassing why spend our licence money on stocking all these fish? I can understand why property owners do not like steelhead fisherman. We have lost access to areas because of some who are complete slobs leaving thier trash behind on the banks.
> 
> Second why does the state keep stocking steelhead with our perch population plummeting? What do they think that this non native species eats? I can remember when there was good perch fishing on Erie. Right now even if you get your limit of 30 perch by the time you pay for bait and gas it would be much cheaper to just buy them from the netters. Plus when you are done you still have to clean those perch.


I hate to inject some actual science based facts into this thread but perch are a very small part of a steelhead's diet. http://www.glfc.org/lakecom/lec/CWT..._docs/fin_rep_2004_steelhead_diet_project.pdf


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## Siskiefu

Reading the first paragraph boosted my confidence lol... Millions of salmonid stocked annually in Lake Erie and I still get many skunks throughout the year  lol


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## bman95

ldrjay said:


> If I'm not mistaken the upper chagrin has natural brook trout I believe.


Yup, I caught one brookie about 5 years ago on the fly. Never heard of one caught since then though

As far as steelhead goes, it's one of the few things keeping me in ohio along with hunting. Fishing for them is fun and a challenge, plus they taste great in the smoker


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## ldrjay

bman95 said:


> Yup, I caught one brookie about 5 years ago on the fly. Never heard of one caught since then though
> 
> As far as steelhead goes, it's one of the few things keeping me in ohio along with hunting. Fishing for them is fun and a challenge, plus they taste great in the smoker


And patties.

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## CARL510ISLE

How bout bombarding the state with something important like securing more public access. Londons sucked PERIOD. Why anyone would want them back is beyond me. Enjoy the elbow space in the fall and if you like company fish PA then. Be thankful we have the fish we do, they are far superior to what we had.......

C510I


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## lowhole4trowt

Flathead76 said:


> I have two problems with our DNR steelhead stocking programs. First why spend our licence dollars on something with limited stream access? Alot of the water these fish migrate and stay all winter is private property. The law states that the land owner owns all the dirt to the center of the river. Unless there are plans to make it so the law states as long as you are wading you are not trespassing why spend our licence money on stocking all these fish?


Because they aren't spending our license money on stocking these fish. Our money basically goes into the general fund and annual funds for stocking and such are decided out of that. The money going in and the stocking coming out are not necessarily correlated. This is a significant reason I think it is important to argue for logical reasons, theoretically they could look at all the numbers of money spent combined with complaints about how bad the fishing is an say hey guess what? No more steelhead...I was unaware that the state revamping our hatchery and looking into a fish that lives on average longer versus some of the few other options at the time and going with a cheaper decision which consequently resulted in larger stocking numbers was being irresponsible with money...


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## Chef T

Maybe we all need to refocus the fall fishery that could be beneficial to all sides. As we all know, the London isn't coming back and the salmon are out the question. That leaves us with a few other feasible options. 1) PA strain Steel or 2)NY Lake Run Browns. Both are thriving in our Lake Erie environment and are easy to obtain for our hatcheries. They both make the fall sprint and spawn in the fall/winter. Now that point is VERY important when it comes to the Manistee Strain. Their lust for the egg has always over taken their urge to wait till spring. The one big fact not brought up in this discussion is their willingness to sneak around in good numbers to eat the fall/winter spawn. You see that in MI all the time and back in the day on Conny when the ODNR experiment of Londons with Manistee was going on. By adjusting the stocking numbers to include either or both of these options will silence most and provide our rivers with a true Sept-May bonanza. 
Now I know a few ol' schoolers will argue that the PA clones aren't the same...they aren't , lol, but they fight a hell of a lot better than the Londons and are bigger, trust me. Plus you can guarantee they are in the first cold rain in Sept. 
The other ol' schoolers will argue that the Brown trout fishery was tried and done in the 90s and failed...true...but that was the WRONG strain of brown trout for our Lake Erie and they just dumped the little guys in Geneva harbor and said "good luck". I was there guys, they sucked big time. Unpredictable, wary as heck, and always in the timber, giant pain in the you know what. The good thing is PA has already done all the research by stocking the NY brown the past 5 years. The returns are good and the size is great. Those browns come in like clockwork and stay through spring to munch on river victims. 
I know it's been a rough season for a lot of guys, but let's not lose our heads. We still have the potential to make this young salmoniod fishery we have beyond world class. But let's attack this hurdle with common sense and unity. That is what got the ODNR to look to the Manistees in the first place...
My two cents..


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## lowhole4trowt

Several seemingly very good points and suggestions in this post. Unfortunately I do not think the majority takes this common sense side of the argument as often as we'd like. This stuff will always go on unfortunately. I lived in Milwaukee for 3 years, watched guys catch no exaggeration *20-30 POUND* browns in the harbor and then complain that they couldn't really catch them in the river due to a dash and spawn. I don't know that our lake would support that fish but I'd take it as a fall/winter fish in a heartbeat.


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## Lundfish

IMO the status quo is just not adequate. I know of many people who are thinking about hanging it up. Look at how much money steelheading brings to this state. All the gear and gas. People drive for hours. I have a 1 hour drive to the nearest stocked trib. It's nothing for a steelheader to spend $500 plus on a rod or reel each! How about waders and boots? Along with jigs, tackle, bait and flies.

There is a better way for this state. When you talk to the ODNR they don't think so. That tells me that they're closed minded.

BTW this OP was not intended to bring Londons back. It's to find another solution like buying or trading eggs with PA. I realize a 'mutt' won't get as big as a Manistee but I honestly don't care at this point.

Those of you who are actually concerned should let your voice be heard. Those of you who are happy with the way things are, I would rather you don't even post here. Even better; if you don't go fishing to catch fish don't post either. Of course I'm not speaking for the mods here but there have been a lot of opinions that have been posted that are completely unnecessary.


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## ldrjay

I just got back from a fun fun 15 fish run with my bro in hour and half. If the back in the day was better I wish woulda seen it. Just curious why 500 for fishing rig? Thats just ridiculous. Imo 

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## lowhole4trowt

Lundfish said:


> Those of you who are actually concerned should let your voice be heard. Those of you who are happy with the way things are, I would rather you don't even post here. Even better; if you don't go fishing to catch fish don't post either. Of course I'm not speaking for the mods here but there have been a lot of opinions that have been posted that are completely unnecessary.


If your sole purpose in posting is because you want to catch more fish/are sick of having bad trips/don't like that we haven't been able to fish much on frozen rivers, which most of your own posts in this thread suggest then I would offer that many of your posts are completely unnecessary as well. There seems to be very little actual concern for the fishery itself as there was not much mention of anything except for strain of fish. Complaining about browns in mke, PA guys complaining about no spring fish, and this are all in the same category to me. BTW its not like PA's mutts are booming either.

Voices absolutely need to be heard but they need to be speaking concern for the fishery (open up lands, plans to fix the toxic wasteland on the grand, removing the Cuyahoga dam which never happened, plans to restore some of our river banks with vegetation that could help with silt runoff, heck even suggestions like a co-op program with browns or possibly some steelhead changes etc.) not greedy I want to catch more fish and these fish suck arguments.


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## lowhole4trowt

ldrjay said:


> I just got back from a fun fun 15 fish run with my bro in hour and half. If the back in the day was better I wish woulda seen it. Just curious why 500 for fishing rig? Thats just ridiculous. Imo
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Nice! I'll be out your way after work!


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## Siskiefu

ldrjay said:


> I just got back from a fun fun 15 fish run with my bro in hour and half. If the back in the day was better I wish woulda seen it. Just curious why 500 for fishing rig? Thats just ridiculous. Imo
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


It's the same reasons why someone who loves and can appreciate show cars, or even luxury cars I guess would be more appropriate. You can argue that a bike can get you from point a to point b just the same as a car as well, but in the end it's whatever you prefer.

Granted I am relatively new to steelhead, it would be cool to see more streams/rivers stocked on the western side of the state (Hoga, Black, Huron, etc).

There's a lot of variables to everything, possibly many that are out of anyone's control. The stocking itself isn't just Ohio, we need to consider any state that borders Lake Erie.


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## Lundfish

lowhole4trowt said:


> If your sole purpose in posting is because you want to catch more fish/are sick of having bad trips/don't like that we haven't been able to fish much on frozen rivers, which most of your own posts in this thread suggest then I would offer that many of your posts are completely unnecessary as well. There seems to be very little actual concern for the fishery itself as there was not much mention of anything except for strain of fish. Complaining about browns in mke, PA guys complaining about no spring fish, and this are all in the same category to me. BTW its not like PA's mutts are booming either.
> 
> Voices absolutely need to be heard but they need to be speaking concern for the fishery (open up lands, plans to fix the toxic wasteland on the grand, removing the Cuyahoga dam which never happened, plans to restore some of our river banks with vegetation that could help with silt runoff, heck even suggestions like a co-op program with browns or possibly some steelhead changes etc.) not greedy I want to catch more fish and these fish suck arguments.


And here we go again.


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## lowhole4trowt

Siskiefu said:


> Granted I am relatively new to steelhead, it would be cool to see more streams/rivers stocked on the western side of the state (Hoga, Black, Huron, etc).
> 
> There's a lot of variables to everything, possibly many that are out of anyone's control. The stocking itself isn't just Ohio, we need to consider any state that borders Lake Erie.


Totally agree, could be looking at an even larger battle with Hoga considering the federal involvement but that would be a fantastic battle to win. Turning a river with such negative connotations to it into a top steelhead (which given its flow and depth etc compared to our other rivers could happen I think) stream would be an awesome accomplishment.


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## Lundfish

ldrjay said:


> I just got back from a fun fun 15 fish run with my bro in hour and half. If the back in the day was better I wish woulda seen it. Just curious why 500 for fishing rig? Thats just ridiculous. Imo
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Ridiculous for you maybe. You obviously missed the point. I could catch nearly the same amount of fish I catch with a wal mart special but I choose to get high end equipment. The point is that people spend money like I mentioned and they'll just stop if the fishery sucks.

I always wondered why the guy wearing jeans and rubber boots using a wal mart special and a thill float looks at me funny while I catch a fish in front of them. 

BTW my season hasn't entailed getting skunked every time. I have had many 1-2 fish and even 12 fish days this year. The vast majority though have been skippers and I had to work hard for those.


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## ldrjay

fish4wall said:


> ok im making my first reef tank....
> i need to buy some live rock..the cheapest ive found was about $8.00lb.
> does anyone know where i can get some cheaper????
> i have a 55gal tank.
> any info would be great.
> thanks
> fish4wall


Oh I got the point. I find it funny that a lot of these guys I have talked to with these fancy rig crying about the lack of fish and I keep going out and haven't gotten skunked steelheading in two years. Just cause the weather sucks doesn't mean the fishing has. I also get yelled at because I show people what I do to help or send them to spots then guys cry that I'm giving all the public spots out. I help out I get help. 

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## bdawg

Voices absolutely need to be heard but they need to be speaking concern for the fishery (open up lands said:


> I agree, the more we do to improve the water quality, the better the spawning and fishing will be. We've come a long way since the 70's, but much more to be done! From what I'm seeing, we still have a long way to go in controlling erosion of headwater streams and on construction sites. If Brook Trout can still survive in NE Ohio then Steelhead can one day spawn successfully so that stocking is not needed. This is a great fishery that has been FEATURED in national magazines! Hence the increased fishing pressure.
> 
> I've only caught 2 steelies ever, but I'm not complaining. I chaulk it up to inexperience. I do just fine on panfish and bass. I thought steelies wouldn't be that hard since I was pretty good at catching smallies in the Hoga.
> 
> I am interested in having ODNR stock Brown trout for a better fall run. They are better suited to warmer streams anyways. Any reason this can't be done in Ohio streams that flow into Lake Erie?
> 
> Hopefully, these strains of trout will evolve to successfully spawn in Ohio streams. It all takes time though.


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## lowhole4trowt

Lundfish said:


> I always wondered why the guy wearing jeans and rubber boots using a wal mart special and a thill float looks at me funny while I catch a fish in front of them.
> 
> The vast majority though have been skippers and I had to work hard for those.


Lol I've been outfished many times by guys who know what they're doing with cheap gear. It's not the arrow it's the indian. and noooow this all makes sense...having to WORK for those fish geez it's really been a rough go for ya huh? Leisure activity with financial ability to buy nice gear god forbid you've had to put in effort to catch any fish! Me Me Me Me


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## ldrjay

Trust me I'm not working at all to catch them. There are so many I dont want to catch them but another species and still can't keep them off.

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## Lundfish

lowhole4trowt said:


> Lol I've been outfished many times by guys who know what they're doing with cheap gear. It's not the arrow it's the indian. and noooow this all makes sense...having to WORK for those fish geez it's really been a rough go for ya huh? Leisure activity with financial ability to buy nice gear god forbid you've had to put in effort to catch any fish! Me Me Me Me


You like trolls?


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## Lundfish

ldrjay said:


> Trust me I'm not working at all to catch them. There are so many I dont want to catch them but another species and still can't keep them off.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I know where you fish and I've wailed on them there too. It's too far for me to drive and plus I need the exercise wading a few miles of river.


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## ldrjay

I need the exercise too. Lol maybe ill have to start exploring more rivers. Then again in another week or so ill be tearing up the eyes at pyma. Then back to the grand for smallies then back to pyma n skeeter for eyes in the weeds. God dang I love fishing.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## ztkaz

Maybe we should spend money but making our rivers and streams cleaner and more of a habitat for these fish. That's what would make fishing all around better. Our state is a joke.


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## whjr15

Lundfish said:


> Those of you who are happy with the way things are, I would rather you don't even post here.


Spoken like a true scholar.  

First, you post your *OPINION*, pose many questions (rhetorical or not), then get upset when other peoples' *OPINIONS* don't match yours; eventually telling them to refrain from posting. Makes total sense. 

Would you rather have four pages of replies consisting of nothing more than "_I agree._"? Imagine how awesome that thread would be!!!


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