# Ukraine!!



## loweman165

It's been days now. I've been watching for a discussion here about the events unfolding in the Ukraine. Are they being deleted? Does nobody have an opinion one tens of thousands of families in a modern city being killed, displaced and having to pick up arms to fight a modern military? I get it that this is a "safe place" for so many to discuss outdoors BUT these are events that could potentially affect us in ways we could have never imagined. 
I understand the whole " no politics " rules, I get it BUT I CANT FOR THE LIFE OF ME believe how an entire country of people can be under attack for NOTHING and there's not a country in the world willing to do anything more than initiating sanctions that will take months to do NOTHING! 
Sorry if I broke rules here, I'll except a ban or time out. It doesn't matter anymore. But I'm here to say IT MAKES ME SICK that civilians, in the year 2022, are in a situation where they must pick up arms and defend themselves!! I'm 50 years old and it brings a tear to my eye watching these poor children running for thier lives and a world full of cowards will do nothing....


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## tomb

It is terrible.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DJA

I agree wish I could find an unbiased source, that could explain this situation to me


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## DJA

Guess we’ll have to wait for Ken Burns, to dig out the facts


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## Southernsaug

It isn't that I don't care, but I am not discussing it on an outdoor forum!! Because we choose to have a place outside of the everyday worldly crap to escape and discuss our recreational passions, without discussing politics and world news, does not make us cold hearted or bad people. My vote is for the Mods to lock it or delete this thread. Get upset with me if you want, but I have no ill feelings toward anyone, just how I feel.


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## Saugeyefisher

Southernsaug said:


> It isn't that I don't care, but I am not discussing it on an outdoor forum!! Because we choose to have a place outside of the everyday worldly crap to escape and discuss our recreational passions, without discussing politics and world news, does not make us cold hearted or bad people. My vote is for the Mods to lock it or delete this thread. Get upset with me if you want, but I have no ill feelings toward anyone, just how I feel.


This^^^
I agree with you 100%.
There's plenty of other places to discuss this.


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## jiggerman

Fish ,Hunt Fish more.


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## firemanmike2127

I'm simply praying for the citizens of Ukraine...


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## jiggerman

All members on here are too, history has been repeating itself too long, sad news is dealt with by each person differently. Hope the sadness ends soon!


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## bobk

I agree loweman,it’s sickening to see this all unfolding. I saw woman and children fleeing the county while their fathers and husbands had to stay and fight. Heartbreaking to watch them crying as they left them behind most likely fearing the worst for their loved ones.
There is always the option of scrolling past a thread you don’t like instead of hoping it gets deleted. I do it all the time. It’s really pretty simple. Prayers to those poor people in Ukraine.


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## One guy and a boat

Terrible to watch this, but agree OGF isn't the place for this discussion. Praying for all those in that area. 

Edited to add. Wasnt advocating for thread closure. Just my view that topics like these and TOS make for a difficult conversation. Other forums would be better suited. But understand the connection members have here and desire to discuss here. 

Kip


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## fastwater

Loweman165 and others...
To answer your question as to if threads pertaining to the Russian invasion of Ukraine have been/are being deleted...the answer is 'no' they haven't been.
This is the first such thread.
And while I may get outvoted...as long as the thread doesn't go all political and out of bounds with the TOS's(as these type of threads often do)...it's a world event that will/has affected all of us in some form or another and will remain open.

To those wanting this thread closed stating this is an outdoor 'forum' ...you are correct...sorta.
This is an outdoor 'site' but as you all know the General Discussion 'Lounge' forum has many threads unrelated to the outdoors.
If you don't want to read this or any other thread...please just scroll on by to one that interest you.

*


firemanmike2127 said:



I'm simply praying for the citizens of Ukraine...

Click to expand...

*Truely heartbreaking and the above are my sentiments exactly


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## loweman165

Fastwater I appreciate that. I'm not looking to cause trouble BUT there comes a time when burying your head in the sand doesn't cut it. Eventually some one sneaks up from behind and kicks you in the a$$.
I pray as well for those citizens but unfortunately they need more. If the thread goes south, which I'm sure it will, go ahead and close it. I just had to vent my frustration.
Such brave people.


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## Dovans

Is it bad enough to send your sons over to fight for? Its disgraceful whats going on. NATO sucks.


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## loweman165

Dovans said:


> Is it bad enough to send your sons over to fight for? Its disgraceful whats going on. NATO sucks.


My son's are 19 and 21. I'm aware as they are of the possible consequence of a full scale war. I enlisted in 93 when nothing was really going on. If I was 18 and a war broke I'd enlist. I'd follow in the footprints of my family members that ran to enlist in ww2. Now we see why they were the "greatest generation".
As to the question is it bad enough to send my boys? If they make the decision to go, I'd be heartbroken, scared and proud of their decision.


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## Specwar

Tell me one person on this forum that would NOT stand up and defend the United States if we were to be attacked, and I’ll show you one person that I would brand a coward and have absolutely no respect for.
I fought my war, and others have fought theirs, we ( United States) cannot afford to get our troops involved in this very unfortunate event.
Doing so would certainly lead to a nuclear disaster.
Perhaps George Washington said it all many years ago with his statement, “friends with all, alliance with none”.
Please keep us out of it.


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## night vision

It's terrible what's happening in Ukraine. I despise war but we are never going to get the truth from the establishment media. If you're not willing to take a deep dive into the politics, you won't get anywhere near the truth of what's happening. The truth can be hard to accept.


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## Specwar

The only “given” is why it is taking place now.


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## laguna21

Sad but would be crazy to get involved, Russia has China backing them and this could start ww3. Taiwan will be next. Praying for world peace.


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## laguna21

DJA said:


> I agree wish I could find an unbiased source, that could explain this situation to me


Looking at a map of NATO countries in Europe it makes sense that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to become a member.


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## fastwater

Specwar said:


> Tell me one person on this forum that would NOT stand up and defend the United States if we were to be attacked, and I’ll show you one person that I would brand a coward and have absolutely no respect for.
> I fought my war, and others have fought theirs, we ( United States) cannot afford to get our troops involved in this very unfortunate event.
> Doing so would certainly lead to a nuclear disaster.
> Perhaps George Washington said it all many years ago with his statement, “friends with all, alliance with none”.
> Please keep us out of it.


Agree with this whole heartedly.
As gut wrenching and heartbreaking as it is...we have been promised that 'no boots on the ground' as far as U.S. soldiers are concerned. 
I hope that promise stays fulfilled.


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## laguna21

I've read that Putin's billionaire friends (oligarchs) are out of the country, partying on $300 million dollar yachts. It'd be a shame if some horrific fatal accident were to happen to them while most of the world suffers through their thirst for power and greed.


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## jiggerman

Dont let this go sideways folks. Keep praying and hope alive.


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## Fish-N-Fool

Really unfortunate and is going to impact most of the world. The worst is yet to come and watching it play out is awful. Really hoping somehow we are all shocked and they agree to diplomatic talks soon.

This is what happens when world leaders on both sides cannot use compromise, diplomacy, incentive, and instead draw lines and force each side into opposite corners. They constantly focus on differences instead of recognizing and even celebrating uniqueness. I hope relations can be amended between the EU, the West and Russia to get the world back on a civil and relatively stable footing to move forward.


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## RedJada

Been seeing that Russia has suffered substantial losses compared to Ukraine. And with countries sending more weapons/ammo to Ukraine hopefully they can hold on. Volodymyr has some big ......


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## Morrowtucky Mike

I definitely feel for the Ukrainian people, but we need to defend our own borders before jumping into a conflict across an ocean to help someone else defend theirs.


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## 9Left

Morrowtucky Mike said:


> I definitely feel for the Ukrainian people, but we need to defend our own borders before jumping into a conflict across an ocean to help someone else defend theirs.


True... but if We don't help over there we will be in it a lot deeper... We don't have any choice but to get involved


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## Dovans

What would have to happen to have War Crimes charged and enforced on Mr. Putin?.. From what I've seen, this is nothing but greed. What possible explanation is there for this invasion. Just glad the Nuke plant wasnt bombed..


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## Smitty82

It’s a sad situation. Praying for them. Kudos to the Ukrainians for defending theirs, alot of other countries would have just rolled over. Be nice if the rest of Europe would step up and actually do something for once. It is their back yard.


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## fishless

Smitty82 said:


> It’s a sad situation. Praying for them. Kudos to the Ukrainians for defending theirs, alot of other countries would have just rolled over. Be nice if the rest of Europe would step up and actually do something for once. It is their back yard.


I admire there resolve to fight.Quite impressive .Praying


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## Saugeye Tom

I too agree with all of you but sit here feeling helpless to do anything.


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## laguna21

Media saying Germany is going to help Ukraine out, not sure what it means but afraid it's going to start something larger, need some diplomacy quick or it could get much worse, keep praying.


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## loweman165

laguna21 said:


> Media saying Germany is going to help Ukraine out, not sure what it means but afraid it's going to start something larger, need some diplomacy quick or it could get much worse, keep praying.


I've seen that reported. Also they report Turkey is banning Russian war ships from part of the Black Sea. Turkey doesn't have a good track record with Russia. This potentially will spiral out of control and the US will have no choice but to be more involved. I'd like to say keep it over there but I'm also sort enough to know if we didn't get involved in 1942 the world map would look an awful lot different.


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## Specwar

loweman165 said:


> I've seen that reported. Also they report Turkey is banning Russian war ships from part of the Black Sea. Turkey doesn't have a good track record with Russia. This potentially will spiral out of control and the US will have no choice but to be more involved. I'd like to say keep it over there but I'm also sort enough to know if we didn't get involved in 1942 the world map would look an awful lot different.


We have every choice not to get directly involved. US has been NATOs pocket book for far too long.,absolutely no reason to spill American blood on this one.


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## laguna21

Specwar said:


> We have every choice not to get directly involved. US has been NATOs pocket book for far too long.,absolutely no reason to spill American blood on this one.


Absolutely! And where will it stop? Belarus will be ready to defend Russia and so on.


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## Bluegillin'

I saw that Ukraine's president has essentially taken up arms and is on the streets fighting. If he gets killed by Russian soldiers I have no idea how the world reacts to that. Part of me says, a leader who is leading by example, but on the flip side, he can't lead if he is not here. I saw that the US wanted to extract him and his quote was "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition". Praying it all comes to an end soon.


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## cement569

my neighbor came to america 10 years from the ukraine and he and his wife bought a house across the street from me. very nice elderly couple but he lost his wife last year from cancer and now he is alone.today he motioned me over and he was trying to tell me about his country through broken english and how he had family and friends over there and he didnt know what to do, and you could tell how heart broke he was by the tears in his eyes. all he could say was ...my god why, why? friends with china and russia involved we could be seeing ww3 unfolding right before our eyes....i pray im wrong


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## Rooster

Hope the Ukrainians fight like hell to defend their home. Hope we supply them with any arms they can use. Hope we avoid ANY military involvement.


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## dirtandleaves

Bluegillin' said:


> I saw that Ukraine's president has essentially taken up arms and is on the streets fighting. If he gets killed by Russian soldiers I have no idea how the world reacts to that. Part of me says, a leader who is leading by example, but on the flip side, he can't lead if he is not here. I saw that the US wanted to extract him and his quote was "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition". Praying it all comes to an end soon.



It's called balls, and he's got them


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## Saugeyefisher

bobk said:


> I agree loweman,it’s sickening to see this all unfolding. I saw woman and children fleeing the county while their fathers and husbands had to stay and fight. Heartbreaking to watch them crying as they left them behind most likely fearing the worst for their loved ones.
> There is always the option of scrolling past a thread you don’t like instead of hoping it gets deleted. I do it all the time. It’s really pretty simple. Prayers to those poor people in Ukraine.


You are right. I can just as easily scroll. 
Plus the discussion has been nothing but encouraging and civil so far. I stand corrected on thinking the thread should be shut down but just not a place I personally would discuss any further then a shout-out of thoughts and prayers! Thanks Bob!


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## EnonEye

Hey, Germany sent a bunch of helmets and now I see are sending some heavy duty war tools there for defense (whohoo) but what stands between Rusky and France, no standing german army, what, the Polish army? This should have never happened and now we have to keep an eye on this madman. We cannot allow chemical, bio or nukes, absolutely, need to have someone awake at the wheel in Washington or... my prayers are with all there in Ukraine. War is something children should not have to see but the world allowed this to happen, where's the UAE, where's Saudia, where the heck is all of 
e. europe? As usual they look at us, So sad👩‍👩‍👦‍👦


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## fasteddy

Bully's, from the top to the bottom. Hardly nobody is compassionate, forgiving, respectful, polite and all the other adjectives that may express weakness. I've been adjusting my blinders and ear plugs to avoid society. Luckily everytime I'm ready to give up somebody surprises me and says " excuse me" or "thank you", or actually steps out of the way, realizing that they are in the wrong. The "me" society. Every time I think it can't get any worse someone comes along and tops the last one. I will not miss this place when I am gone. Sad, very sad.


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## Junebug2320

My Great grandparents on my mothers side came over from Ukraine. My Great grandfather understood english but didnt speak much. I just found out that a few “states” or “provinces” bordering russia were/are russia sympathizers. And Ukraine was loosely fighting their own people. With russia surrounding them, I don’t understand the lack of weapons. A lot of folks are “praying for Ukraine” which is great, but they need resources NOW!! All these “sanctions” are political talk. It wont mean anything if/when they take that country over. It will be too late. Putin is flat out a nut case. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 9Left

Specwar said:


> We have every choice not to get directly involved. US has been NATOs pocket book for far too long.,absolutely no reason to spill American blood on this one.


No way man... just being the United States of America… we are a sovereign nation.. We absolutely have to be involved to make this less impactful on our economy... it's not about opinions it's not about spilling American blood… We just have to be involved… We are part of the United Nations, and we have to be involved.... if we left it unchecked and not involved… We would be in a complete recession or depression economically.... Our involvement in this is absolutely vital to world peace and economic stability, let alone saving the lives of countless innocent people... It's what we do as one of the most powerful military forces in the world..... And by the way… If you have been paying attention, we have posted not one American soldier in Ukraine itself


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## 9Left

.... And if I was worried about anyone in the United States… I fear for the people that are trying to retire this year… They are in serious jeopardy and might not be fulfilling their dreams right now


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## gobucs6789

I hope for the best..


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## Specwar

9Left said:


> .... And if I was worried about anyone in the United States… I fear for the people that are trying to retire this year… They are in serious jeopardy of fulfilling their dreams right now


Let me clarify. 
I worry about all United States citizens, no specific group more than another.
We can be involved through sanctions, but at no time place troops inside Ukraine.
Perhaps I was not clear in my original response to this issue.


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## Safety1st

Imagine, you come home from work and your fence was moved 30 yards and not in your favor, barn leveled , cattle killed. And you thought the neighbors heavy equipment was for a room addition. Suprise!

We sit over here and look at this from a 70-80 year perspective such as WWII. Over there, they have a little longer calendar. For example, the Poles were the premier military forces 500 years or so ago, those over there still remember about that. A little American history, it was a Polish general who aided our Gen. George Washington in the revolution, providing battleworks, cannon placement and other information. Don't worry about Poland!

I'm glad some see through the fog of war, and hope it all clears for all the right reasons, sometime before we have to pay $6/gal for gas come april fishing! Praying for Ukrain, her people, the entire area, Ukrain neighbor's interests sans Russia, ours, the worlds!


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## ironman172

Saugeyefisher said:


> This^^^
> I agree with you 100%.
> There's plenty of other places to discuss this.


And I sure do..... voice my feelings/opinion elsewhere, but try and follow rules and have respect for them here ..... sad days in our world


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## Rocknut

I was texting our friends in Germany yesterday. They are scared. They never would have imagined another war in Europe. They are praying that Nato will stand behind them and defend against Putin. I invited them to come stay with us and work remotely if possible.


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## Specwar

Please don’t take this as my intention of being argumentative, but if you’ve done your homework you know that without the United States and our funding, NATO would be non existent.
My hope is that we as a country can assist bringing the issue in Ukraine to resolve, without participation in armed conflict involving our military. 
I for one would hate to have to gather my children and grandchildren and explain that our military involvement has started a nuclear conflict that would certainly include much of the world.


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## Wallychaser

The situation in the Ukraine is an atrocity that cannot and will not be tolerated. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of those affected by this act of aggression. However there are a many things going on to support the Ukrainian citizens beyond just sanctions. The United States and other NATO countries have been and are still making massive efforts to supply the Ukrainian people with modern weaponry and supplies to combat this invader. These same allies are also tasked with the staging of what will be the fallout of this invasion. Some examples of this are the refugee accommodations that have to be constructed to house and keep safe those thousands of Ukrainians forced from their homes. Supplying all of the European continent with fossil fuel based products such as heating oil, vehicle fuel, and natural gas for heating homes. Russia is the leading supplier of these fuels to all of Europe as well as being a large supplier of agricultural products throughout the continent. As for NATO not acting, we must not forget that the Ukraine is not a member of NATO but will still benefit from the support of the alliance. I am a veteran of the United States Air Force and served in the European theatre during the war in Bosnia. Again we ( the Americans ) were part of a multinational force enforcing the rules of engagement set forth by the United Nations. Although we were not physically “Boots on the ground” I can assure that our presence was definitely a factor in the outcome of that siege. I am eagerly awaiting the United Nations weigh in on this invasion of the Ukraine and can only hope that an an international peacekeeping force will bring an end to this.


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## ICENUT

I just finished reading an article that stated that Putin has put his nuclear arsonal on alert.He claims it's because of the sanctions placed on his country.Let's pray to God he is taken out or comes to his senses!!!


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## loweman165

Let not also Forget that if it were not for the US and Britain supplying Russia in 1941 Germany would have mopped the floor with them. So supplying a country from the sidelines does in fact work, it just doesn't seem like it's enough. I also feel at this point if the US gets involved with "boots on the ground" or not, this is going to escalate with or without us.
The only thing I can do myself is support the Red Cross. They have people in Poland and surrounding countries. I hate donating money because you have no idea who it actually benefits, but I think the Red Cross would be the safest bet? Just not shure.


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## baitguy

Specwar said:


> Please don’t take this as my intention of being argumentative, but if you’ve done your homework you know that without the United States and our funding, NATO would be non existent.


Yes, and thankfully a recent president who shall go unnamed made them start paying their fair share ... maybe this issue will get them on board instead of having US pay for everything and do all their dirty work


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## loves2fishinohio

ICENUT said:


> I just finished reading an article that stated that Putin has put his nuclear arsonal on alert.He claims it's because of the sanctions placed on his country.Let's pray to God he is taken out or comes to his senses!!!


Yeah, I don't know if the man has completely lost it, or this is more saber-rattling. Obviously, he underestimated the people of Ukraine. Part of me says he's trying to save face, part of me says he's trying to draw other nations into the conflict.

I've been saying this isn't our fight, but it is heartbreaking to see these people fighting for their country while the rest of the world is basically being cheerleaders. Russia is being a big bully, and if it weren't for their nukes, the whole world would be rushing in to help.

My best guess is that one of the neighboring NATO countries is going to get involved, and that'll suck us into this. At this point, I'm not opposed. We have enough hardware in the area to help control the skies, it doesn't mean we don't have to put boots on the ground.


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## glfpro07

Morrowtucky Mike said:


> I definitely feel for the Ukrainian people, but we need to defend our own borders before jumping into a conflict across an ocean to help someone else defend theirs.


 Is that what every european should have said instead of dying beside us in Afghanistan?


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## loomis82

Well I know this whole situation sucks all around and filling up the truck at 3.69 a gallon really sucks!! Wonder how high it'll be in a month or two!?!?


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## Specwar

loomis82 said:


> Well I know this whole situation sucks all around and filling up the truck at 3.69 a gallon really sucks!! Wonder how high it'll be in a month or two!?!?


The United States controls what the price of fossil fuels we do here. All we have to do is undo what was done a year ago.


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## Wallychaser

Latest news out of this situation is that the Ukrainians and Russians are going to meet on the Belarus border tomorrow to discuss an end to the hostilities. I can only hope that good news comes from this meeting but I fear that the initial meeting will not have a total conclusion to this conflict. And my personal opinion regarding Putin’s mobilization of his nuclear deterrence forces is the act of a coward. I can only pray that the other nuclear armed nations give no response to Russia’s action. Make no mistake that this situation is the real deal and not just a military exercise. A certain protocol is in place for this exact scenario and I can assure that no one has a good outcome with these events


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## Specwar

Well, it could be a start to a conclusion. 
See what a nation the size of Texas can accomplish by arming citizens? Now just how important is one of our amendments? Arming civilians who truly love their freedom (USA) can surely be most beneficial.


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## loves2fishinohio

Wallychaser said:


> Latest news out of this situation is that the Ukrainians and Russians are going to meet on the Belarus border tomorrow to discuss an end to the hostilities.


I sense a trap IF this actually happens. I hope they send a puppet delegation instead of Ukraine's actual president.




Wallychaser said:


> And my personal opinion regarding Putin’s mobilization of his nuclear deterrence forces is the act of a coward. I can only pray that the other nuclear armed nations give no response to Russia’s action. Make no mistake that this situation is the real deal and not just a military exercise. A certain protocol is in place for this exact scenario and I can assure that no one has a good outcome with these events


I'll pray with you for the same result.


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## gobucs6789

God bless the Ukrainians.


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## loweman165

I'd just like to say I'm proud of everyone here keeping this topic civil. Some close calls but otherwise civil. Alot of opinions all around the world right now, not just here in the US. Who's right and who's wrong is a very blurred line. More sanctions from the European Union today worry me because I don't think Putin will allow anyone to give him the short end of the stick. I hope I'm wrong.


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## Specwar

Well, if Putin doesn’t like it, he can take his toys and go home😁.


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## gobucs6789

This is gonna end well for the Russians.


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## Shad Rap

gobucs6789 said:


> This is gonna end well for the Russians.


is or isn't?


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## fastwater

loweman165 said:


> I'd just like to say I'm proud of everyone here keeping this topic civil. Some close calls but otherwise civil. Alot of opinions all around the world right now, not just here in the US. Who's right and who's wrong is a very blurred line. *More sanctions from the European Union today* worry me because I don't think Putin will allow anyone to give him the short end of the stick. I hope I'm wrong.


As long as the sanctions don't include stopping the purchase of oil/natural gas from Russia...which is prolly the biggest asset/revenue Russia has going for their economy...seriously doubt Putin will stop his insanity.
FWIW...don't think any of the sanctions yet...nor the country's that have been involved with putting the sanctions in place...including the U.S., have quit buying oil from Russia or have included oil as part of the sanctions.


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## ICENUT

It seems to me that all the countries imposing sanctions should have included OIL my God its there main source of revenue they are funding russia's aggression buy making Putin rich.You don't fight your enemy by proviving them ammunition to continue do you.


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## loweman165

fastwater said:


> As long as the sanctions don't include stopping the purchase of oil/natural gas from Russia...which is prolly the biggest asset/revenue Russia has going for their economy...seriously doubt Putin will stop his insanity.
> FWIW...don't think any of the sanctions yet...nor the country's that have been involved with putting the sanctions in place...including the U.S., have quit buying oil from Russia or have included oil as part of the sanctions.


No oil or gas sanctions just tells me that NO country's truly serious about stopping him...yet. I think there's alot of "hope" Putins gonna have a heart ant stop. A man in his possession cannot show a shred of weakness now more then ever. When you rule by fear, weakness is not an option. He's dug a hole that I don't think he can get out of except to keep digging.


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## Saugeye Tom

I hope they are cautious


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## fastwater

loweman165 said:


> *No oil or gas sanctions just tells me that NO country's truly serious about stopping him...yet. *I think there's alot of "hope" Putins gonna have a heart ant stop. A man in his possession cannot show a shred of weakness now more then ever. When you rule by fear, weakness is not an option. He's dug a hole that I don't think he can get out of except to keep digging.


Agree with everything above...especially the emboldened.


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## Saugeye Tom

So, a few reports so far. all are resolved stay on track BROTHERS !!!


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## laguna21

Watched Winter on Fire on Netflix, amazing what these people went through to get where they are. Not sure if I'm recommending, it just pissed me off even more.


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## SemperFi

U.S. citizens should consider leaving Russia immediately on commercial flights, the State Department said on Sunday, citing an increasing number of airlines canceling flights and countries closing their airspace to Russia after its invasion of Ukraine


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## bulafisherman

Its anyone's guess as to what the real reason is. Usually its not what most believe it to be.China will be making a move on Taiwan before long. 24 hour campfire has some opinionated and pretty heated debates on this for those that want to engage in the political aspects of it.


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## SemperFi

China is playing the cat and mouse game. China want's to see if United States will do with Russia, before they make there move on Taiwan. During my military days they say bear is a sleep has not woken up yet, referring to Putin.


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## Smitty82

Live updates: US official: Belarus may join Ukraine invasion


The latest on the Russia's invasion of Ukraine : WASHINGTON — A senior U.S. intelligence official says Belarus is expected to send troops into Ukraine as soon as Monday to fight alongside Russian forces that invaded Ukraine last week.




apnews.com


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## Saugeye Tom




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## gobucs6789

Shad Rap said:


> is or isn't?


isn't..... I need to proof read before I post


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## Bluegillin'

My biggest concern is that we add more sanctions, stop purchasing oil/gas, lock down airspace, shut down financial systems, etc. to the point where Putin feels he has absolutely nothing to lose by pressing the Nuke button. It may be a last resort but he seems like someone that may not be afraid to use his last resort regardless of the impact. 

As for China and Taiwan, I think China might reevaluate how quickly they can take over Taiwan. Russia seemed to think Ukraine would be a push over and the Ukrainians dug in. From what I have read, the Taiwanese people would put up a similar fight.


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## jdl447

Do not trust state run media from either side.


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## Safety1st

Bluegillin' said:


> Putin feels he has absolutely nothing to lose by pressing the Nuke button. It may be a last resort but he seems..


Another option, he can leave? I'm sure he can form some type of ''we accomplished our goals'' style statement.


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## AmericanEagle

The Russian ruble has dropped almost 30 percent vs the US dollar an all time low. Russia is prohibiting foreigners from selling stock to try to contain the financial fallout.









Russian ruble plunges nearly 30% against the dollar amid sanctions over Ukraine invasion


The Russian ruble dived around 29% against the dollar on Monday morning, as markets digested the effects of sanctions on Russia amid its invasion of Ukraine.




www.cnbc.com


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## loves2fishinohio

AmericanEagle said:


> The Russian ruble has dropped almost 30 percent vs the US dollar an all time low. Russia is prohibiting foreigners from selling stock to try to contain the financial fallout.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian ruble plunges nearly 30% against the dollar amid sanctions over Ukraine invasion
> 
> 
> The Russian ruble dived around 29% against the dollar on Monday morning, as markets digested the effects of sanctions on Russia amid its invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Yeah, and they more than doubled their interest rate from 9.5% to 20%, The Swiss have joined in and have frozen assets of many individuals and companies. I hope they can reach some kind of agreement today to end the hostilities during their "meeting". Meanwhile, Russia is indiscriminately lobbing rockets into the 2nd largest city, hitting civilian areas.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498236171666788352


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

The big move is cutting of the 650 billion foreign exchange Putin accumulated in an attempt to sanction proof the war effort. If he cannot gain access to this foreign exchange account that is another major blow to his war efforts and effort to keep the people in Russia somewhat appeased. He positioned Russia very well leading up to this war, decreasing the debt significantly. Well see if he can muster any lending from China.

You are now seeing videos of the captured Russian soldiers including reserves stating they were told it was only going to conduct border military exercises. They were then subsequently ordered to war and told they would be imprisoned or even shot if they did not full fill their duty. They claimed they just wanted to go home, but had no choice being told it was war time and they could be shot. also told they would be hated back in Russia. I understand in a POW situation you are trying not to be harmed, but it seems too consistent across the board. I think many of these troops honestly had no idea they were going to be sent to wage this war under the guise of military exercises.


----------



## Specwar

Fish-N-Fool said:


> The big move is cutting of the 650 billion foreign exchange Putin accumulated in an attempt to sanction proof the war effort. If he cannot gain access to this foreign exchange account that is another major blow to his war efforts and effort to keep the people in Russia somewhat appeased. He positioned Russia very well leading up to this war, decreasing the debt significantly. Well see if he can muster any lending from China.
> 
> You are now seeing videos of the captured Russian soldiers including reserves stating they were told it was only going to conduct border military exercises. They were then subsequently ordered to war and told they would be imprisoned or even shot if they did not full fill their duty. They claimed they just wanted to go home, but had no choice being told it was war time and they could be shot. also told they would be hated back in Russia. I understand in a POW situation you are trying not to be harmed, but it seems too consistent across the board. I think many of these troops honestly had no idea they were going to be sent to wage this war under the guise of military exercises.


Are you suggesting Putin lied to them?😱


----------



## laguna21

I think Russia is being somewhat careful, they want that territory back so wouldn't make sense to destroy it. Plus, both countries and particularly Putin are loyal to the Orthodox church and as crazy as he is won't risk doing damage to the monastery there, probably centuries old religious items that could never be replaced. Don't know how to post pics but these buildings are absolutely beautiful and sacred.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

putin is only as loyal to he church as he needs to be to achieve the primary objective


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

I fear and expect severe force increase by Putin as he has been stalled and embarrassed. From what we are learning I suspect he thought he really was going to roll in and take the capital within 2-3 days max. I pray he doesn't start unleashing thermobaric mlrs like he did in Syria. The loss of life and devastation will be terrible. They are also extremely effective at targeting underground installments (and designed for it). Where are all these poor Ukrainian folks unable to fight hiding?......underground! 

He hit underground hospitals (war crimes) and entire divisions of soldiers in Syria with these. I hope not to wake of the news these have been unleashed on Ukraine tonight....praying the pressure on Putin permits him to resist acting with these nasty weapons again.


----------



## dirtandleaves

The Russians brought all this on themselves. I admire the fight the Ukranians have and the love they have for their country and freedom. I hope they trap the Russians in Ukraine and don't let them out. I hope they kill them all


----------



## Specwar

Unless we and other countries STOP purchasing their oil, the partial sanctions will never work. It’s ludicrous that we continue to buy it.


----------



## cement569

not sure i would want them to kill them all, they are just doing what they are ordered to do. now if they took out the leader who is giving these orders i wouldnt lose a minutes sleep


----------



## fastwater

^^^Agree


----------



## Specwar

Don’t be surprised if things don’t work out his way real soon that one of his own doesn’t try to take him out. 
Spent quite a bit of time in Ukraine and Siberia not too many years ago and those people take a notion to do something and it’s pretty hard to change their direction. (Ukraine’s are displaying that right now). 
Never heard your average everyday Ukrainian or Russian speak bad about the other and I had workers from both countries working together.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

so I'm looking at a 40 mile long convoy parked thirteen miles from Kiev, with tanks, trucks, howitzers, and all of the support tail needed to invade. Why had Ukraine not hired a small group of retired usaf mercenary pilots to man planes and bomb this thing before it is on the move?


----------



## Specwar

Ol' Whiskers said:


> so I'm looking at a 40 mile long convoy parked thirteen miles from Kiev, with tanks, trucks, howitzers, and all of the support tail needed to invade. Why had Ukraine not hired a small group of retired usaf mercenary pilots to man planes and bomb this thing before it is on the move?


Perhaps they have a plan to deal with it.


----------



## fastwater

Specwar said:


> Unless we and other countries STOP purchasing their oil, the partial sanctions will never work. It’s ludicrous that we continue to buy it.


Agree!
Don't think Putin will stop until the biggest majority of the people of Russia really start to suffer enough to call for Putins head. 
IMO...that's why it's most important to crush Russia's economy banning oil purchase as fast as possible. Even if China assist Russia for awhile...that will only go so far.


----------



## dirtandleaves

cement569 said:


> not sure i would want them to kill them all, they are just doing what they are ordered to do. now if they took out the leader who is giving these orders i wouldnt lose a minutes sleep


I'm sure they are following orders. I'm also sure their orders are to kill Ukrainians and destroy their country. That's why I stand by my statement that I hope they kill them all. If we were invaded by a foreign country and were fighting for our lives in the streets I would show no mercy if my enemy told me he was only there because he was following orders


----------



## fastwater

Ol' Whiskers said:


> so I'm looking at a 40 mile long convoy parked thirteen miles from Kiev, with tanks, trucks, howitzers, and all of the support tail needed to invade. *Why had Ukraine not hired a small group of retired usaf mercenary pilots to man planes and bomb this thing before it is on the move?*


Have been praying Putin does not unleash an all out air assault on Ukraine. Most likely If'n Ukraine had done that there would already be more Russian planes bombing Ukraine then there are soldiers on the ground.


----------



## fastwater

dirtandleaves said:


> I'm sure they are following orders. I'm also sure their orders are to kill Ukrainians and destroy their country. That's why I stand by my statement that I hope they kill them all. If we were invaded by a foreign country and were fighting for our lives in the streets I would show no mercy if my enemy told me he was only there because he was following orders


Yup...sorry but my...my family's and country men's lives are much more important than any of your orders.


----------



## EnonEye

Specwar said:


> Unless we and other countries STOP purchasing their oil, the partial sanctions will never work. It’s ludicrous that we continue to buy it.


I agree, unfortunately too many pockets in D.C. are lined with dollar bills made off that oil purchasing from rusky. Senator Hawley (Missouri) has intro'd a bill in congress that would require the reopening of all our pipelines, short of that, purchasing of rusky oil will continue to happen IMO. Prayers and personal check gone out for the support of the wounded and 1/2 million already displaced out into Poland. Lord help them.


----------



## DavidRK

Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.


----------



## 9Left

DavidRK said:


> Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.


Care to elaborate?


----------



## laguna21

CNN reporting the oligarchs are telling Putin to get out of Ukraine, I really want to believe it but I don't know? Be great if it's true


----------



## fastwater

Guys thread has been going good thus far.

*Thank you for that!!!*

I know it's hard...believe me, like many here, there's soooo much more I would like to vent...but let's not make this thread get closed either before tonight's State of the Union speech...or after. 
Please,please,please...If'n your blood pressure is to the point that you can't keep posts within the TOS parameters...back away from the keyboard...cool your jets a bit then come back.
Thanks again.
Continued prayer for Ukraine...


----------



## cement569

your right, nothing we say on this invation will change anything. ive checked my feelings at the door and just figured that there is more to this story than we are being told...but what can you do?


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

California State Pension announcing it is devesting it's $1 billion Russian portfolio asap. 

Hearing reporting that the specific targeting of select Oligarchs has been put into motion and the Swiss banks are cooperating to seize all personal assets. Several internet folks around the world as you have seen have developed tracking websites of where some of the most known Oligarchs are stashing their yachts, private plane flight tracking, etc. That has to make life somewhat uneasy for these folks. 

I would think one would need to be very careful telling Putin what to do....even the top Oligarchs. Not that he is listening to the pleas to cease from anybody I am afraid.


----------



## loweman165

fastwater said:


> Guys thread has been going good thus far.
> 
> *Thank you for that!!!*
> 
> I know it's hard...believe me, like many here, there's soooo much more I would like to vent...but let's not make this thread get closed either before tonight's State of the Union speech...or after.
> Please,please,please...If'n your blood pressure is to the point that you can't keep posts within the TOS parameters...back away from the keyboard...cool your jets a bit then come back.
> Thanks again.
> Continued prayer for Ukraine...


The reason I've been quiet on the subject the last couple days. Getting hard to keep my mouth shut. It's incredible the real time video we get to see in this day and age. I used to wonder if we had this capability in 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland if the outcome would have been different. Getting images and info immediately not days and weeks later. Now I'm thinking it wouldn't have made a difference.


----------



## Outdoormyers

Has anyone noticed any gas price increase since the invasion? Right now its nearly $4/gal in Oregon hopefully its less when I get to columbus in 3 weeks.


----------



## garhtr

Outdoormyers said:


> Has anyone noticed any gas price increase since the invasion?


I noticed $3.55 many places today in SW Ohio.
Good luck !


----------



## Specwar

Up to $3.59 today in Stark County.


----------



## cement569

$3.59 here in summit county. its going to get to the point where you will have to take out a personal loan just to fill your truck up. pretty sure it will hurt the guys with the larger boats on lake erie and the charters


----------



## laguna21

$94 to fill my truck the other day, Toyota tundra 38 gallon tank. Sold my motorcycle a few years ago and now regretting it.


----------



## cement569

nope, someone asked if anyone noticed the jump in gas prices since the invasion of the ukraine. so yea its still about the ukraine but also affects us


----------



## RJH68

Smitty82 said:


> Is this a thread about gas prices or a thread about Ukraine?


Can’t just scroll by if you have an issue?


----------



## laguna21

Smitty82 said:


> Is this a thread about gas prices or a thread about Ukraine?


 Its affecting gas prices so yes and yes!


----------



## Saugeye Tom

Outdoormyers said:


> Has anyone noticed any gas price increase since the invasion? Right now its nearly $4/gal in Oregon hopefully its less when I get to columbus in 3 weeks.


3.99


----------



## bobk

Fish-N-Fool said:


> California State Pension announcing it is devesting it's $1 billion Russian portfolio asap.
> 
> Hearing reporting that the specific targeting of select Oligarchs has been put into motion and the Swiss banks are cooperating to seize all personal assets. Several internet folks around the world as you have seen have developed tracking websites of where some of the most known Oligarchs are stashing their yachts, private plane flight tracking, etc. That has to make life somewhat uneasy for these folks.
> 
> I would think one would need to be very careful telling Putin what to do....even the top Oligarchs. Not that he is listening to the pleas to cease from anybody I am afraid.


I’d bet the little group of freaks moved millions of dollars into their back pockets before the invasion started. So much of the “sanctions” don’t have quick enough affects I’m afraid.


----------



## fastwater

Up .14 in the last 2weeks around here. 
But that's really nothing new...along with groceries and everything else...been on a steady rise for the last year.


----------



## laguna21

bobk said:


> I’d bet the little group of freaks moved millions of dollars into their back pockets before the invasion started. So much of the “sanctions” don’t have quick enough affects I’m afraid.


Definitely shoulda woulda coulda been implemented sooner. Reading there's a real nice yacht in Maldives up for grabs. Would fetch a few bucks at a govt. repo auction, send the proceeds to Ukraine or maybe Poland for them graciously taking all these refugees, helluva humanitarian effort there.


----------



## Dovans

Paid 3.60/gal in Strongsville today. Prices are going to get higher... Most will blame Ukraine, but 80% of that is BS. Corporate sees good excuse to raise prices. Hey lets blame the Ukraine invasion


----------



## cement569

yep they used to blame hurricanes for the spike in fuel prices, well as you can tell its not hurricane season so they used the ukraine invasion to futher rob americans


----------



## bajuski

Hey hey, no politics. You're gonna get us booted


----------



## bajuski

bajuski said:


> Hey hey, no politics. You're gonna get us booted



And you can't talk to me like that, I have seniority


----------



## dirtandleaves

Ok what I posted (deleted) was ABSOLUTELY NOT political. It was fact. All I did was mention the name of a former president and not even in a bad way. If a thief was to break into a house, he would be much more confident breaking into a house if he was certain that there were no firearms present in the house. Same with nukes


----------



## fastwater

dirtandleaves said:


> Ok what I posted (deleted) was ABSOLUTELY NOT political. It was fact. All I did was mention the name of a former president and not even in a bad way. If a thief was to break into a house, he would be much more confident breaking into a house if he was certain that there were no firearms present in the house. Same with nukes


May have been a fact...but it was a 'political' fact and if you can't post on this or any other thread without getting political then don't post. 
Would appreciate in the future that If'n you feel there's an issue caused by staff with one of your posts/threads that you discuss it via PM with that staff member rather than posting issue in open forum.

Warnings have been sent out for political posting to those that can't reframe from doing so.
Extended vacations to come for those that just can't resist continuing.


----------



## david farley

loweman165 said:


> It's been days now. I've been watching for a discussion here about the events unfolding in the Ukraine. Are they being deleted? Does nobody have an opinion one tens of thousands of families in a modern city being killed, displaced and having to pick up arms to fight a modern military? I get it that this is a "safe place" for so many to discuss outdoors BUT these are events that could potentially affect us in ways we could have never imagined.
> I understand the whole " no politics " rules, I get it BUT I CANT FOR THE LIFE OF ME believe how an entire country of people can be under attack for NOTHING and there's not a country in the world willing to do anything more than initiating sanctions that will take months to do NOTHING!
> Sorry if I broke rules here, I'll except a ban or time out. It doesn't matter anymore. But I'm here to say IT MAKES ME SICK that civilians, in the year 2022, are in a situation where they must pick up arms and defend themselves!! I'm 50 years old and it brings a tear to my eye watching these poor children running for thier lives and a world full of cowards will do nothing....


----------



## david farley

loweman165 said:


> It's been days now. I've been watching for a discussion here about the events unfolding in the Ukraine. Are they being deleted? Does nobody have an opinion one tens of thousands of families in a modern city being killed, displaced and having to pick up arms to fight a modern military? I get it that this is a "safe place" for so many to discuss outdoors BUT these are events that could potentially affect us in ways we could have never imagined.
> I understand the whole " no politics " rules, I get it BUT I CANT FOR THE LIFE OF ME believe how an entire country of people can be under attack for NOTHING and there's not a country in the world willing to do anything more than initiating sanctions that will take months to do NOTHING!
> Sorry if I broke rules here, I'll except a ban or time out. It doesn't matter anymore. But I'm here to say IT MAKES ME SICK that civilians, in the year 2022, are in a situation where they must pick up arms and defend themselves!! I'm 50 years old and it brings a tear to my eye watching these poor children running for thier lives and a world full of cowards will do nothing....
> [/QUOTE


----------



## bajuski

dirtandleaves said:


> Ok what I posted (deleted) was ABSOLUTELY NOT political. It was fact. All I did was mention the name of a former president and not even in a bad way. If a thief was to break into a house, he would be much more confident breaking into a house if he was certain that there were no firearms present in the house. Same with nukes


Oh well, at least he nuked us all, lol. I knew I was getting close so I get it!


----------



## david farley

I fill so bad for the people of this poor nation and I fill like we as Americans need to do everything in our power to bring Putin down, We need a sniper to take him out FOR THE SUFFERING OF PEOPLE IN THE HOMELAND and his own people that will suffer by his actions


----------



## 9Left

david farley said:


> I fill so bad for the people of this poor nation and I fill like we as Americans need to do everything in our power to bring Putin down, We need a sniper to take him out FOR THE SUFFERING OF PEOPLE IN THE HOMELAND and his own people that will suffer by his actions


.. an attempt on his life... yup... i'm sure that wouldn't provoke any kind of horrible actions from him…


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

Bob - you know you are right and they still have access to more money than everybody posting here combined. Many are dual citizens and own property all around the world. They invest all around the world. However, nothing harms a greedy man’s soul and mind more than loosing significant wealth. Add that to the fact most of the world paid no attention to them and now they are in the news and being tracked. It has to be uncomfortable!

Putin is going to do what he wants to Ukraine. He may level them Militarily but he’s already lost. The people of Ukraine have spoken. They won’t tolerate his puppet govt or military rule. They will rise up again creating another democracy. It is just going to come with an enormous cost of blood and treasure.

wish his own military would turn on him. We need the Russian people to turn on him and that is a huge ask.


----------



## loves2fishinohio

Fish-N-Fool said:


> wish his own military would turn on him. We need the Russian people to turn on him and that is a huge ask.


Exactly this.


----------



## cement569

well i woke up this morning and seen that the sanctions are really working great, russia is still advancing and sooner or later the ukraine will fall....smoke and mirrors


----------



## CHOPIQ

All while the USA continues to buy Russian oil and gas.


----------



## bobk

CHOPIQ said:


> All while the USA continues to buy Russian oil and gas.


That’s the sick part of it. Those are the only sanctions that will work. Seems like I remember that we used to get oil and gas from the USA.


----------



## SemperFi

The Russian's are almost in the palm of our hands. We have to stop buying oil and gas from them an also from Iran. Iran and Russia want to "nuke" us.  Our weak government can't see this greed for money! If Nato, doesn't do anything Russia will be sitting on there door steps. They caught us with are pants down in 911 can't happen again!


----------



## cement569

these sanctions against russia are just for show, and if we stop buying oil from them we had better think about buying bikes and riding horses because you wont be able to afford to buy gas. there is alot more going on that we will never know about again smoke and mirrors


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

do you think gofundme would seize funds donated to a crowdsource effort to place a large bounty on the heads of putin and his cronies and military leaders?


----------



## bajuski

Oligarch's are shaken, A $1,000,000 *bounty* for the arrest of Russian President Vladimir *Putin* was offered to military officers by Russian entrepreneur Alex Konanykhin


----------



## Stumpjumper56

loweman165 said:


> It's been days now. I've been watching for a discussion here about the events unfolding in the Ukraine. Are they being deleted? Does nobody have an opinion one tens of thousands of families in a modern city being killed, displaced and having to pick up arms to fight a modern military? I get it that this is a "safe place" for so many to discuss outdoors BUT these are events that could potentially affect us in ways we could have never imagined.
> I understand the whole " no politics " rules, I get it BUT I CANT FOR THE LIFE OF ME believe how an entire country of people can be under attack for NOTHING and there's not a country in the world willing to do anything more than initiating sanctions that will take months to do NOTHING!
> Sorry if I broke rules here, I'll except a ban or time out. It doesn't matter anymore. But I'm here to say IT MAKES ME SICK that civilians, in the year 2022, are in a situation where they must pick up arms and defend themselves!! I'm 50 years old and it brings a tear to my eye watching these poor children running for thier lives and a world full of cowards will do nothing....


----------



## 9Left

OK so I'm trying to understand this, my goal is just to have an understanding of oil shipment… As previous posters have stated, and i agree with this, Why do we continue to import Russian crude? If we cut off Russian import of crude, that would be a pretty severe sanction and could help possibly end this. What I found so far is that the crude coming from Russia has a higher grade of sulfur that is required to use in the refineries on our east and west coasts. A lot of these refineries are not connected by a pipeline in the US and and along with that, a part of the Jones act, passed 100
years ago, limits the size of vessels that are allowed to carry oil, this in turn made it not profitable for US oil refineries to ship their oil (within American ports) , So we use imports from Russia to our east and west coast . Our largest importer of oil is actually Canada and Mexico. And looking further, the fracking industry in the United States in recent years has actually made the US one of the largest producers of oil… Which begs the question, why don't we just use our own oil? I found that the answer is because our refineries are not connected by pipelines and it is entirely not profitable to be shipped in such small containers, so we use imports , like Russia.
I don't want to make political posts, I just want to have a discussion and understand the real reasons on why things are happening the way they are. So if we completely stop import of Russian crude, the ultimate affect is that US consumers would severely suffer higher costs. 

There's no argument in this forum that Putin needs to go, he is a tyrant that needs to be stopped… but I feel like I have a better understanding of the oil situation, so what is really the best option? I can understand not sending thousands of our troops over there and starting what could be a world war with one of the largest countries, Putin's stockpile of nuclear weapons is by no means small, so sparking a war could be completely devastating To everyone


----------



## Specwar

A popular saying from my days in RVN, “kill a commie for mommy “. The only way to stop him.


----------



## cement569

9LEFT made an excellent observation of the russia oil thing, like i said before, there are alot of things going on behind the scenes that we will never know....and ill leave it at that


----------



## Stumpjumper56




----------



## Dovans

9left I was recently told that the XL pipline from Canada was canceled because of the bidding of one man... Warren Buffet. It appears Warren owns all the Rails coming from Canada and gets big payday from trains rolling across those rails.. which are mostly OIL Tankers. This maybe rumor I guess... havnt bother to confirm it..


----------



## SemperFi

Russian oligarch just sold his London Soccer Team and gave the money to Ukraine.


----------



## 9Left

Dovans said:


> 9left I was recently told that the XL pipline from Canada was canceled because of the bidding of one man... Warren Buffet. It appears Warren owns all the Rails coming from Canada and gets big payday from trains rolling across those rails.. which are mostly OIL Tankers. This maybe rumor I guess... havnt bother to confirm it..


Thanks for your input Dovans... i'll have to check it out… Which is primarily the problem… Lol… I haven't been commenting on this thread for a while because I've just been reading and trying to find the answers and come to an understanding of what's going on before I comment… The problem so far has been taking all the "side roads" on the Internet and wasting the time just trying to find out if the article is valid and the source is legitimate. The use of oil, the Jones act, and not having pipelines have so far been a bit straightforward and factual on most articles ihave found...However, exactly why the pipelines aren't there i dont know.. and I'm sure thats a whole Nother bowl of political spaghetti that I have not gotten into yet to research


----------



## laguna21

Thanks 9left, that brings some clarity to oil questions. Edited: sounds similar to the micro chip problem, we HAVE TO get to work on some of these things so we don't have to rely on other countries


----------



## cement569

watched 2 different news outlets today. one said russia overtook a major city in the ukraine and the other said that russia,s attack was weakening...witch is it? and heard the u.s deployed 3,000 of our troops and sending them over there....here we go folks


----------



## bulafisherman

Some people need to stop watching the mainstream news,its all smoke and mirrors to create an illusion. If you research the pictures and some of the videos for the articles are from 2021 or even before.boggles my mind that people believe anything that the mainstream news puts out there. remember covid..... same thing,you are being played.


----------



## bulafisherman

cement569 said:


> watched 2 different news outlets today. one said russia overtook a major city in the ukraine and the other said that russia,s attack was weakening...witch is it? and heard the u.s deployed 3,000 of our troops and sending them over there....here we go folks


Our troops are not going to engage in a war with Russia.


----------



## ICENUT

Not yet anyway but the future doesn't look good!


----------



## Safety1st

SOTU speech, 30million barrels of oil are to be released from the strat. reserve. So, expect lower gas prices soon👻! Problem fixed (haha hohoho)

I've sourced comments of how much oil we import daily from Russia. Sounds like 3-5%. WOW!. I find it from 200,000 (Snopes)to 500,000 (quote from Sen. Manchin), depending on the article and the level of product such as raw oil vs. any refining. Just using that low number and assuming at $110 / barrel, that's $22,000,000, daily. Then weekly, monthly.

Another angle to it all, just how is Russia paying for it ? If they've been SWIFTed, and the rubel is no good, and their money system is frazzled...could the real story be we're allowing an I.O.U. ?









PolitiFact - No, the U.S. did not end its domestic oil production. But it does import some of its oil from Russia


A Facebook post claims the United States should restart its domestic oil production to replace the loss of crude oil it




www.politifact.com













Manchin fumes as US buys 500,000 barrels of Russian oil a day amid Ukraine war


Sen. Joe Manchin called on President Joe Biden to ramp up domestic energy production to curtail the United States's reliance on Russian oil and gas imports, accusing the White House of pushing “hypocritical” policies.




www.washingtonexaminer.com





ADDED: For you have to travelers, gasbuddy has a cheaper to more expensive gas map. Graduated by color. So you may possibly divert a little off your normal route to hit a spot with cheaper fuel. Every little bit helps!









USA and Local National Gas Station Price Heat Map - GasBuddy.com


Check out the heat map for average unleaded gas prices around the country for both Canada and the US. Type in your city to see a local gas prices map.




www.gasbuddy.com


----------



## loves2fishinohio

cement569 said:


> watched 2 different news outlets today. one said russia overtook a major city in the ukraine and the other said that russia,s attack was weakening...witch is it? and heard the u.s deployed 3,000 of our troops and sending them over there....here we go folks


Don't post misinformation on this thread, please. Biden has made it clear we will not have boots on the ground in Ukraine. Any troops going over there are to provide backup for EU countries.


----------



## loves2fishinohio

Safety1st said:


> I've sourced comments of how much oil we import daily from Russia. Sounds like 3-5%. WOW!. I find it from 200,000 (Snopes)to 500,000 (quote from Sen. Manchin), depending on the article and the level of product such as raw oil vs. any refining. Just using that low number and assuming at $110 / barrel, that's $22,000,000, daily. Then weekly, monthly.


Yeah, I find it very hard to believe we've imposed all these sanctions, yet still import their oil. That makes no sense to me at all.


----------



## cement569

never said a word about boots on the ground, just said troops being deployed. how is that misinformation?


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

I am retired, but work part tome from home ad a technical adviser to global industries. Feels like I cannot do much physically to help. If I could I would look for the SOB putin myself and end this. 

Might not have a job soon, as I just refused to participate in a morning phone meeting with a supplier in a country that abstained from yesterday's UN General Assembly vote to denounce the russia invasion of Ukraine.


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

We will send even more troops.....think of troops as gov't workers in this context. We sent some to shore up the flank, some to train Ukrainians, etc. However, many are working to help the civilians and making preparations for this growing refugee crisis. They are flying in food, medicine, setting up tents, etc. Lots of work to be done and troops get involved in all that. Every NATO member has been very clear that we will not engage and fight against the Russians...we will support Ukraine against Russia and help Europe with this human crisis and that will take a lot more troops headed that way from all major NATO members. 

Not that the world can trust a word out of the Kremlin, but imo it was a good sign that the use of nuclear weapons was strongly downplayed yesterday by Russia. Certainly better than any escalation of the threat and showing some diplomacy to talk down Putin's original comments. 

Going to be more and more difficult as they are cutting off power, phones and food to the citizens while they pulverize the cities with air strikes. It's beyond terrible for citizens that could not or did not get out.


----------



## SemperFi

*Germany seized the world's largest mega-yacht worth $600 million belonging to Russian oligarch. 
France seizes Rosneft boss's yacht as it tried to flee*

Russian businessman Alex Konanykhin has put a $1 million bounty on Russian President Vladimir Putin's head.
He has called on Russian military officers to go after Putin and arrest him as a war criminal.
Konanykhin said he was putting up the bounty to "facilitate the denazification of Russia."
A Russian investor has put a $1 million bounty on Russian President Vladimir Putin's head, asking for Russian military officers to arrest Putin as a war criminal.
"I promise to pay $1,000,000 to the officer(s) who, complying with their constitutional duty, arrest(s) Putin as a war criminal under Russian and international laws


----------



## laguna21

SemperFi said:


> *Germany seized the world's largest mega-yacht worth $600 million belonging to Russian oligarch.
> France seizes Rosneft boss's yacht as it tried to flee*
> 
> Russian businessman Alex Konanykhin has put a $1 million bounty on Russian President Vladimir Putin's head.
> He has called on Russian military officers to go after Putin and arrest him as a war criminal.
> Konanykhin said he was putting up the bounty to "facilitate the denazification of Russia."
> A Russian investor has put a $1 million bounty on Russian President Vladimir Putin's head, asking for Russian military officers to arrest Putin as a war criminal.
> "I promise to pay $1,000,000 to the officer(s) who, complying with their constitutional duty, arrest(s) Putin as a war criminal under Russian and international laws


I love it man!!!! If you looked at the web and saw your picture and personal information updated every few seconds, can't imagine how they're feeling. The internet has shrunk the world.


----------



## Rooster

Very informative (and NON Political) video that I got from the Joe Rogan podcast of all places:

Why Russia is invading Ukraine





In my opinion, the sanctions in place now are nothing more than symbolic. Natural gas & oil are the only sanctions that could possibly have an impact, and Europe's reliance on Russia for those resources eliminate that as a possibility. In fact, I believe that they are FAR more concerned about the opposite.....Russia turning off the spigot.... than anything that might happen to the Ukrainians.


----------



## Stumpjumper56

DJA said:


> I agree wish I could find an unbiased source, that could explain this situation to me


BBC


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

Watch all the news outlets including those against the west. BBC is not good enough it is very supported just like US news outlets. Watch the usual suspects from the west, but also watch Australia, African, Far east outlets and you will see a different picture than western outlets. WION, parstimes out of Iran, Australian broadcast corp (ABC), DW news out of Germany, India Today, etc.

I can summarize the difference in views on what is occurring (not the why):

West: Putin has miscalculated every step of this war, he has failed, he has planned poorly and is frustrated becoming more dangerous. The convoy is stalled because they are out of gas, disorganized and some Russian soldiers have purposely destroyed engines so they don't have to fight. Putin underestimated the response around the world, sanctions will be crushing; this could be the end of Putin.

Alternative View: It is only day 8 in this OPERATION that was expected to take several weeks. In only 8 days most objectives have already been met. Russia has destroyed most anti aircraft defense systems and most of the small Ukrainian air force and Navy. The military installations in the major cities have been destroyed and Russia controls the air space. Two major cities are under Russian control, and they have encircled 3 others including the capital. Russia has stalled outside the capital regrouping, but not because they cannot advance it is to allow women and children to flee before they level the capital. Putin has shown more restraint in using his might than in pervious operations in an attempt to try to save civilian populations - he could have already leveled the major cities. Putin has largely used his lowest grade weapons and at any moment can decide to wipe these cities, but he is trying to let civilians leave. Less than 10% of Russian forces are being used in this operation.

Putin did not miscalculate anything....he already knew these sanctions were forthcoming and he knew the price. Putin knew Europe is not even in position or ready to fight ANY war. Putin saw weakness in US leadership and unrest in the US civilian population and had no fear of intervention. Putin has already won calling the NATO and US "bluff" and will now do as he pleases with Ukraine as there is nothing the west or the US can do to stop him. Putin will likely move on Moldova next as they are not in NATO and have only 5-7,000 active trained troops and NATO has shown it's weakness. 

Not perfect, but that is how different the reporting is.....somewhere in the middle lies the truth.


----------



## fastwater

Rooster said:


> Very informative (and NON Political) video that I got from the Joe Rogan podcast of all places:
> 
> Why Russia is invading Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, the sanctions in place now are nothing more than symbolic. Natural gas & oil are the only sanctions that could possibly have an impact, and Europe's reliance on Russia for those resources eliminate that as a possibility. In fact, I believe that they are FAR more concerned about the opposite.....Russia turning off the spigot.... than anything that might happen to the Ukrainians.


While it's obviously impossible to predict with certainty what Putin will do...though he may use the threat of turning the spigots off...I believe he is smart enough not to do so. That would surely send Russia's already struggling economy into an immediate downward spiral and cause a severe depression for the Russian people. Which would most likely end Putins reign as Russia's dictator.

Agree the sanctions thus far are mostly 'smoke and mirror'. While there are European country's that can't cease oil purchasing from Russia...There are country's that can cease further purchase of oil from Russia and IMO...should. 
We are one of those previledged country's but have yet chosen to do so cause we are unwilling to make the necessary changes here for that to happen. And yes...if we ever do decide to do that...it will cost us more at the pumps for a couple months but at least every time I fuel up I'll at least know I'm contributing a little to stop the Ukranian massacre.

IMO...Putin will continue with his genocide until his own forces and people suffer enough to turn against him and we should do everything in our power to make that happen as quickly as possible. That includes cutting purchase of Russian oil.


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

The strongest thing the world could do imo is to have hackers break state media in Russia and broadcast the coverage. Let them see this destruction, let them see the pleas of the Ukraine leadership and the Ukrainian people. Let them see their young soldiers saying they were lied to, or told to shot up and march if they asked questions. 

I know it is quite a challenge ..maybe not possible, but that would accelerate this issue back in Russia. Maybe Elon Musk with his network could do something....I can barely turn things on so I don;t pretend to have any idea how these things operate.


----------



## Dovans

Im actually disgusted enough with Russia I could be talked into sending troops to help.


----------



## DavidRK

Reminds me of the Tom Clancy book "Red Storm Rising". Too long for me to sit and read but great audio **** while out and about.


----------



## laguna21

Do what we can without any US soldiers harmed, work towards being independent of countries that hate us


----------



## loweman165

Dovans said:


> Im actually disgusted enough with Russia I could be talked into sending troops to help.


I think we're being dragged in like it or not.


----------



## AmericanEagle

Fish-N-Fool said:


> The strongest thing the world could do imo is to have hackers break state media in Russia and broadcast the coverage. Let them see this destruction, let them see the pleas of the Ukraine leadership and the Ukrainian people. Let them see their young soldiers saying they were lied to, or told to shot up and march if they asked questions.
> 
> I know it is quite a challenge ..maybe not possible, but that would accelerate this issue back in Russia. Maybe Elon Musk with his network could do something....I can barely turn things on so I don;t pretend to have any idea how these things operate.


The BBC has started shortwave broadcasts into Ukraine and Russia. You can listen to them on the internet or you may be able to pick them up on a shortwave receiver.

Here is a link to the BBC's twitter page with all the info.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499031508660756482


----------



## fastwater

laguna21 said:


> Do what we can without any US soldiers harmed, work towards being independent of countries that hate us


Hope you don't mind the slight correction:

Do *ALL* what we can without any US soldiers harmed, work towards being independent of countries that hate us.

Which again...IMO...includes the U.S. immediately ceasing purchase of all oil from Russia.
With Russia exporting about 6million bbls of oil a day and the U.S. buying about 10% of that at the current price of $113/ bbl. we may not bankrupt Russia's already hurting economy but it surely won't do them any good either.


----------



## laguna21

fastwater said:


> Hope you don't mind the slight correction:
> 
> Do *ALL* what we can without any US soldiers harmed, work towards being independent of countries that hate us.
> 
> Which again...IMO...includes the U.S. immediately ceasing purchase of all oil from Russia.
> With Russia exporting about 6million bbls of oil a day and the U.S. buying about 10% of that at the current price of $113/ bbl. we may not bankrupt Russia's already hurting economy but it surely won't do them any good either.


And please do! Working extra so the boss doesn't mind me checking my phone every so often, and hoping we stay out of this militarily any way possible


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

According to the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers (AFPM) trade association the United States purchases over 700,000 total barrels daily:

"The US imports Russian oil, but it is not highly dependent on the country for its supplies. In 2021, the US imported an average of *209,000 barrels per day* (bpd) of crude oil and 500,000 bpd of other petroleum products from Russia"

Crude isn't the key to smacking Russia it is natural gas. The EU only imports 6% of it's oil from Russia, but they import nearly 40% of their TOTAL natural gas consumed in Europe from Russia. I'm not suggesting that the crude should not also be of focus, but it is small potatoes and is NOT going to keep Russian stomach's full, let alone fund an advancing military trying to occupy land mass, etc. Everything should be on the table, but getting the EU off that Russian natural gas is the key and they have known this for many years. The US and Europe can handle the crude issue.....they cannot handle the natural gas issue. Time to figure it out! 

The crude issue can be solved at a high level by the US making some policy / production changes, our neighbors up north in Canada following suit, and our middle eastern producers ramping up production. Not an easy task, but one that can be solved. Nobody seems to have the answer for all that natural gas:

"n 2021, the European Union imported *155 billion cubic metres* of natural gas from Russia, accounting for around 45% of EU gas imports and close to 40% of its total gas consumption". 

I'm confident this was a major consideration of Putin before he pulled the trigger. He flat knows as fact Europe cannot shut him off it just isn't that easy. Now it is time for world leaders to step up and make a sound plan....and for the public to realize it cannot be done quickly, it is a complex situation and that it will take time. Like all economic warfare It will not save Ukraine, but it may save additional aggressive acts of war in the future.


----------



## DUCKHEAD

SemperFi said:


> The Russian's are almost in the palm of our hands. We have to stop buying oil and gas from them an also from Iran. Iran and Russia want to "nuke" us. Our weak government can't see this greed for money! If Nato, doesn't do anything Russia will be sitting on there door steps. They caught us with are pants down in 911 can't happen again!


Read an


SemperFi said:


> The Russian's are almost in the palm of our hands. We have to stop buying oil and gas from them an also from Iran. Iran and Russia want to "nuke" us. Our weak government can't see this greed for money! If Nato, doesn't do anything Russia will be sitting on there door steps. They caught us with are pants down in 911 can't happen again!


Read an article today they want too sign a Iran nuclear deal so they can start buying from them unsteady of Russia. What good does that do, that's just 1 bad guy to another later down the road.


----------



## Specwar

DUCKHEAD said:


> Read an
> 
> Read an article today they want too sign a Iran nuclear deal so they can start buying from them unsteady of Russia. What good does that do, that's just 1 bad guy to another later down the road.


Iran would be an easy conquest should they ever require our full military intervention.


----------



## fastwater

Sources & Uses
Topics
Geography
Tools
Learn About Energy
News
Search EIA.gov
A-Z Index
*PETROLEUM & OTHER LIQUIDS*
GLOSSARY › FAQS ›

OVERVIEW
DATA
ANALYSIS & PROJECTIONS
Referring Pages:

Total Crude Oil and Products Imports from Russia
U.S. Imports from Russia
U.S. Total Crude Oil and Products Imports





View History: Monthly Annual 

Download Data (XLS File)​
Chart Tools

no analysis applied5 Year Seasonal Analysis10 Year Seasonal Analysis
This series is available through the EIA open data API and can be downloaded to Excel or embedded as an interactive chart or map on your website.U.S. Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (Thousand Barrels)​


YearJanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 199500003674401,2574,2091,4980831469 199632639455601,9484291,3089981,1821,3130797 1997653519395601023829399204126220 19980347106301,0062,141331,0054531,6231,966 19998687928142,2613,3824,4754,2964,2814,2513,3962,833962 20008983,4851,9522,4811,3592,2422,4122,2762,6553,4271,4851,710 20015,9045,1261,6413,4382,7161,4232,5203,6523,7251,044663931 20021,8771,4202,9565,75011,4876,9446,8147,3056,7639,1537,6638,558 20035,6097,5817,9813,9616,45515,80917,06312,7518,2442,8942,1242,239 20044,2275,3476,02711,1557,01612,96312,2937,9387,0299,14314,71111,302 200510,45112,97915,79919,79711,32410,48719,0327,34413,97313,4866,4978,512 20066,7768,5246,8056,58919,24812,90413,16415,04916,10311,3326,70211,450 200710,7686,76714,10916,68215,4628,55816,54212,90911,67114,02214,1039,481 200812,15513,08312,46612,05314,26822,91417,74015,18512,99912,21413,34311,844 200915,99413,22419,90422,77225,08318,53223,48415,64914,58011,94512,43511,923 201014,35311,85015,31517,60422,29322,79122,29524,37119,42720,29816,83515,938 201117,28312,22421,38021,12221,19020,65517,47618,15017,74821,30922,12017,117 201217,7288,34410,10511,63716,97219,64515,22011,40616,85317,12713,35416,221 201310,16212,71714,06317,53117,18515,57414,12817,73413,75517,2109,7618,204 20146,58410,20713,14312,13610,8778,23412,56312,2268,4559,8105,10211,008 201512,4228,39811,66710,73710,44715,00213,81015,79011,0589,5289,5976,791 201612,25112,64010,20615,26613,48314,54716,69715,45412,61815,22012,56210,342 201711,1929,26211,7349,23112,42515,10011,11213,88813,49911,00011,52212,046 201811,9518,30411,0447,30215,21613,17014,07215,95915,5678,4057,6118,409 201910,6616,33611,25216,98217,46916,01915,38719,12914,57120,92119,47021,589 202018,63717,80620,00812,23310,85016,54017,46017,10715,81120,46617,90412,898 202120,10412,69122,93820,64126,17125,42723,59524,63718,88719,67917,85512,569


- = No Data Reported; -- = Not Applicable; NA = Not Available; W = Withheld to avoid disclosure of individual company data.

Interesting yearly/monthly data chart from E.I.A. showing our years past and current oil/petroleum dependency on Russia as of Dec 2021. Regretfully the next E.I.A. report won't come out until 3/22/2022 showing data so far this year.
Multipling the number in the given month by 1000 gives total bbls bought that month. Divide that number by the number of days in that month gives total bbls purchased per day for that month.

At anyrate...again...I'd rather cut any and all finances going to Russia, makes necessary changes here, pay more at the pumps for a few months than put one set of boots on the ground in Ukraine. And I would hope other country's that could do so would follow suit.


----------



## fishless

fastwater said:


> Sources & Uses
> Topics
> Geography
> Tools
> Learn About Energy
> News
> Search EIA.gov
> A-Z Index
> *PETROLEUM & OTHER LIQUIDS*
> GLOSSARY › FAQS ›
> 
> OVERVIEW
> DATA
> ANALYSIS & PROJECTIONS
> Referring Pages:
> 
> Total Crude Oil and Products Imports from Russia
> U.S. Imports from Russia
> U.S. Total Crude Oil and Products Imports
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View History: Monthly Annual
> 
> Download Data (XLS File)​
> Chart Tools
> 
> no analysis applied5 Year Seasonal Analysis10 Year Seasonal Analysis
> This series is available through the EIA open data API and can be downloaded to Excel or embedded as an interactive chart or map on your website.U.S. Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (Thousand Barrels)​
> 
> 
> YearJanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec 199500003674401,2574,2091,4980831469 199632639455601,9484291,3089981,1821,3130797 1997653519395601023829399204126220 19980347106301,0062,141331,0054531,6231,966 19998687928142,2613,3824,4754,2964,2814,2513,3962,833962 20008983,4851,9522,4811,3592,2422,4122,2762,6553,4271,4851,710 20015,9045,1261,6413,4382,7161,4232,5203,6523,7251,044663931 20021,8771,4202,9565,75011,4876,9446,8147,3056,7639,1537,6638,558 20035,6097,5817,9813,9616,45515,80917,06312,7518,2442,8942,1242,239 20044,2275,3476,02711,1557,01612,96312,2937,9387,0299,14314,71111,302 200510,45112,97915,79919,79711,32410,48719,0327,34413,97313,4866,4978,512 20066,7768,5246,8056,58919,24812,90413,16415,04916,10311,3326,70211,450 200710,7686,76714,10916,68215,4628,55816,54212,90911,67114,02214,1039,481 200812,15513,08312,46612,05314,26822,91417,74015,18512,99912,21413,34311,844 200915,99413,22419,90422,77225,08318,53223,48415,64914,58011,94512,43511,923 201014,35311,85015,31517,60422,29322,79122,29524,37119,42720,29816,83515,938 201117,28312,22421,38021,12221,19020,65517,47618,15017,74821,30922,12017,117 201217,7288,34410,10511,63716,97219,64515,22011,40616,85317,12713,35416,221 201310,16212,71714,06317,53117,18515,57414,12817,73413,75517,2109,7618,204 20146,58410,20713,14312,13610,8778,23412,56312,2268,4559,8105,10211,008 201512,4228,39811,66710,73710,44715,00213,81015,79011,0589,5289,5976,791 201612,25112,64010,20615,26613,48314,54716,69715,45412,61815,22012,56210,342 201711,1929,26211,7349,23112,42515,10011,11213,88813,49911,00011,52212,046 201811,9518,30411,0447,30215,21613,17014,07215,95915,5678,4057,6118,409 201910,6616,33611,25216,98217,46916,01915,38719,12914,57120,92119,47021,589 202018,63717,80620,00812,23310,85016,54017,46017,10715,81120,46617,90412,898 202120,10412,69122,93820,64126,17125,42723,59524,63718,88719,67917,85512,569
> 
> 
> - = No Data Reported; -- = Not Applicable; NA = Not Available; W = Withheld to avoid disclosure of individual company data.
> 
> Interesting yearly/monthly data chart from E.I.A. showing our years past and current oil/petroleum dependency on Russia as of Dec 2021. Regretfully the next E.I.A. report won't come out until 3/22/2022 showing data so far this year.
> Multipling the number in the given month by 1000 gives total bbls bought that month. Divide that number by the number of days in that month gives total bbls purchased per day.
> 
> At anyrate...again...I'd rather cut any and all finances going to Russia, makes necessary changes here, pay more at the pumps for a few months than put one set of boots on the ground in Ukraine. And I would hope other country's that could do so would follow suit.


As said before i think,send in an assasanation squad to get Putin


----------



## fastwater

fishless said:


> As said before i think,send in an assasanation squad to get Putin


If the rest of the world (with the exception of Russia's late allie, China) would do everything they could to cause havoc to the Russian economy...we won't have to send that hit squad. The Russian people will send their own,


----------



## 9Left

Safety1st said:


> SOTU speech, 30million barrels of oil are to be released from the strat. reserve. So, expect lower gas prices soon👻! Problem fixed (haha hohoho)
> 
> I've sourced comments of how much oil we import daily from Russia. Sounds like 3-5%. WOW!. I find it from 200,000 (Snopes)to 500,000 (quote from Sen. Manchin), depending on the article and the level of product such as raw oil vs. any refining. Just using that low number and assuming at $110 / barrel, that's $22,000,000, daily. Then weekly, monthly.
> 
> Another angle to it all, just how is Russia paying for it ? If they've been SWIFTed, and the rubel is no good, and their money system is frazzled...could the real story be we're allowing an I.O.U. ?


Safety1st... That's pretty on point with what I have found in researching the oil situation also. I found a few more articles and they still basically referenced the same thing. I really wanna dedicate some more time in the future to looking into this further… But now my main problem is that spring crappies are right around the corner and it's starting to consume my mind... can't wait for the
jig n' bobber bite!


----------



## laguna21

Numbers nearly doubled between 19-20, I understand that our country reopened but that's ridiculous


----------



## cement569

i hate to even think or say it but russia will more than likely overtake the ukraine and nobody is willing to do anything to help. sanctions mean nothing because russia is one of the biggest oil exporter in the world and alot of countries depend on their oil, so all they have to do is jack up the price of oil and get their economy back on track....sanctions didnt work the first time, and they wont the second time...sure hope im wrong


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

Great chart - thanks! Look how low in 2014 when Russian took Crimea....they staged in January and went in February. 

Ruble hit record low today. Russia did their best to prop it up there domestically, but they can't stop it. Fitch and Moody's both have Russia's sovereign debt rating to JUNK status. It is unclear with the haze and sanctions if Russia can continue to service it's debt. Their bond market is frozen. Some of this reaction is a "knee jerk", but these actions are going to strangle Russia if they don't have a plan. Wait until the stock market opens.....this is the longest close in almost 25 years. 

I can't imagine they don't have contingency economic plans with China in the event of this fallout. I don't think China, as large as they are, can make up everything being done. 

Ruble to dollar has dropped > 30% in 2 days to hit this low.

How will cryptocurrency factor into this equation? Can crypto be used to mitigate EU and western banking sanctions down the road?

Will Putin feel so much pressure he just levels these cities (he can at any moment)? Or, is that too large a risk that perhaps would position India, Iran and China to take another step back? Of those three imo only India may distance themselves if he gets too sideways with civilians.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com





It comes out tonight that xi asked putin to hold off beginning the Ukraine invasion until the olympics were over, which he did. check out the pact language in the link - is it time to take a proactive stand against china to preempt the same story in Taiwan?


----------



## buckeyebowman

cement569 said:


> i hate to even think or say it but russia will more than likely overtake the ukraine and nobody is willing to do anything to help. sanctions mean nothing because russia is one of the biggest oil exporter in the world and alot of countries depend on their oil, so all they have to do is jack up the price of oil and get their economy back on track....sanctions didnt work the first time, and they wont the second time...sure hope im wrong


Excuse me?! Sweden sent 5,000 Stinger missiles to Ukraine. These can take out tanks and helicopters. They haven't controbuted arms to another country since 1939! Many other NATO nations are contributing arms as is the U.S.! That may be the reason that the Russian armored column seems to be stuck 17 miles outside Kyiv! As long as they're stuck, they should hammer the hell out of them!


----------



## CoonDawg92

Fish-N-Fool said:


> wish his own military would turn on him. We need the Russian people to turn on him and that is a huge ask.





fastwater said:


> IMO...Putin will continue with his genocide until his own forces and people suffer enough to turn against him and we should do everything in our power to make that happen as quickly as possible. That includes cutting purchase of Russian oil.


This is the best way, but it has to happen in the next few days or I’m afraid Ukraine will go down.

I don’t want nuclear war, but how can you let a madman do whatever he wants just because he says he has his finger on the button.

If it doesn’t stop soon, I would hope EU countries take over the airspace and pummel the crap out of Russian armor. I think the Ukrainians can handle themselves on the ground if they have air support.

Would suck if Putin launched one, but this is a world changing situation regardless. If he is not stopped then China takes Taiwan and starts acting without restraint also.


----------



## Dovans

As of now the Russians are destroying one of the largest nuclear plants in Ukraine. Oh boy.


----------



## loweman165

Dovans said:


> As of now the Russians are destroying one of the largest nuclear plants in Ukraine. Oh boy.


That's not good if it's true. Putin had a conference call with France today. Told them the worst was yet to come. This according to BBC. Also if true, I believe him at this point. Unbelievable to see his army's destruction of city's. Seeing high rises smoldering is unreal. Still can't believe the world's gonna let him continue. My guess is they don't and in the days to come literal SHTF. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

looks like a white phosphorous flare on the video going thru a roof on an admin building, a lot of thermal energy not much kinetic energy. To my view the worst thing there right now is the battle going on which generally contains armor piercing projectiles that will severely compromise the cooling jackets on six reactors.

I have to think the intent was to take the reactor plant intact for purposes of control in the future, where it would be included in a fallback position strategy should thy not succeed at taking Ukraine as a whole. That gives putin another stranglehold on european power in addition to oil and gas.


----------



## loweman165

Ol' Whiskers said:


> looks like a white phosphorous flare on the video going thru a roof on an admin building, a lot of thermal energy not much kinetic energy. To my view the worst thing there right now is the battle going on which generally contains armor piercing projectiles that will severely compromise the cooling jackets on six reactors.
> 
> I have to think the intent was to take the reactor plant intact for purposes of control in the future, where it would be included in a fallback position strategy should thy not succeed at taking Ukraine as a whole. That gives putin another stranglehold on european power in addition to oil and gas.


Present Zelenski is saying thier firing at the "Atomic Boxes"? With tanks. Doesn't sound like putin cares if thier intact. Potentially it's believed the explosion could be 6x larger than Chernobyl. Now would be a good time to intervene.


----------



## ICENUT

I have read that the russians have placed explosives at the nuclear facility and they will use it as blackmail to europe! This could get out of hand real soon!!!!


----------



## Safety1st

ICENUT said:


> I have read that the russians have placed explosives at the nuclear facility and they will use it as blackmail to europe! This could get out of hand real soon!!!!



Perhaps...this is what P**** meant when he said he would use nukes.

Playing with fire...

Thinking form a western view doesn't mirror reality in a communist state, to a certain point. For example, ppl around here are saying things, thinking western, such as ''how is he going to pay for stuff?''

He's not.

In a communist state, ultimate authority is to just take stuff. After all, technically it all belongs to the state. Well technically and legally. So Boris The Farmer doesn't want to give up his wheat, it can be taken for the ''common good.'' If he protests a bit too much, off to E. gulag he goes. Think death sentence.

You just can't have dissent in R***** , especially during a time of war!

Add to that the difference in translations, and it is easy to see how (just a theory) P**** is in fact using nuclear for a war, if he controls...a nuclear plant. Added bonus, it's not even in R* shucks they've probably done aquifer tests etc. seen if it will poison Mother R** . The rest of Europe gets poisoned? So what?

Glad to be wrong! ! !

BTW highest gas here last night coming home was $3.82 unleaded


----------



## Safety1st

..and I have no idea why a small portion of latest post is bolded, I went back in and attempted edit, looks Ok, once posted its still bolded.  P**** hackers maybe? LoL


----------



## SConner

ICENUT said:


> I have read that the russians have placed explosives at the nuclear facility and they will use it as blackmail to europe! This could get out of hand real soon!!!!


I have read and watched much of the coverage and have not seen this mentioned. If you don’t mind, where did you read this? Very disturbing if true.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

Just saw a report that AMMO Inc sent 1,000,000 rounds to Ukraine, free of charge.


----------



## fastwater

Ol' Whiskers said:


> Just saw a report that AMMO Inc sent 1,000,000 rounds to Ukraine, free of charge.


Believed this was set up by NASCAR legend Richard Childress:








'It just hit me,' NASCAR legend Richard Childress pledges millions of ammunition rounds for Ukraine


Help for the country is coming from many places. The racing legend said he wanted to do whatever he could to give Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves.




www.wfmynews2.com


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

Thanks for adding, the tv story did not mention Childress.


----------



## laguna21

fastwater said:


> Believed this was set up by NASCAR legend Richard Childress:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'It just hit me,' NASCAR legend Richard Childress pledges millions of ammunition rounds for Ukraine
> 
> 
> Help for the country is coming from many places. The racing legend said he wanted to do whatever he could to give Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wfmynews2.com


Awesome!


----------



## loves2fishinohio

The hurt the people of Ukraine are going through just angers me. We've gone to war for far less causes. What Russia is doing to these people and their country is just outright wrong. Yet, here we sit on the sidelines and continue to buy their oil. The time to act is now. Screw Putin and his nukes. There are innocent people paying a terrible toll trying to defend themselves. It's time for us and the rest of Europe to respond in force.


----------



## laguna21

I hate it too, still want US and NATO to stay out of it, except for humanitarian aid of course. These border wars are tough, remember Kosovo? Should have NEVER been involved in that one.


----------



## Rooster

A nuclear war cannot be won….the end result will be the extinction of the human race.

If NATO attacks Russia, do you really think Putin would go down before pushing the button?

If Ukraine was part of NATO there would be different math, but at this point I hope we are not willing to risk THE EXTINCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE to protect Ukraine.


----------



## Outdoormyers

Gas prices here have reached anywhere between 4.69 to 6/gal too bad we dont have our own pipeline and be self sufficient


----------



## bobk

I fear when this is all done Russia and China will have more land under their thumbs. Hopefully stopping there without us getting involved.

Sadly we are tapping into our oil reserves to save face for a day. Those reserves are meant for our military in a case that we are cut off from oil. We are in a bad situation in our own country and I don’t think we need to be putting more soldiers in danger. Part of me thinks go crush Russia while many of their troops are busy killing innocent people. We can’t win either way we go unfortunately. It’s all very sad to watch unfold. Disturbing that we as humans can’t get along on this planet.


----------



## Safety1st

NICE cartoon here...



https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sbr022722dAPC20220301034503.jpg


----------



## loves2fishinohio

Rooster said:


> If Ukraine was part of NATO there would be different math, but at this point I hope we are not willing to risk THE EXTINCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE to protect Ukraine.


You've illustrated my point perfectly. "Oh if Ukraine were part of NATO we'd be there guns blazing." Meanwhile, a country full of innocent people who do not want to give up their freedom is being slaughtered. NATO or not, we have a right as human beings to step up, regardless of the fact that Putin has a nuclear deterrent. We do as well. Sitting by letting him have his way with a free nation just because he can launch nukes is no reason for us to just sit in a corner.


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

NATO is not fighting this war. Russia will have Ukraine, Crimea and then Moldova when this is over....you cannot convince me as "all in" as Putin went here he won't just go ahead and take Moldova. They would defeat Moldova in 1-2 days and I don't expect them to fight by the time he gets there. They will see that there is nothing left of Ukraine including historical sites and monuments and realize their little army of 6,000 soldiers can do absolutely nothing. Surrendering will not be an act of cowardice, but an act of saving needless and certain death of their citizens; there will be no other choice. Putin will roll in and take over. It will then be Romania, Slovakia, and Hungary as nervous as the Baltics and many in Poland. 

The ONLY thing stopping him at this juncture is his own people turning against him in mass. We have already seen he cares less what the Oligarchs desire. With his grip on state media, the information dispersed to citizens, and his ability to imprison the public there is little chance the Ukrainians can hold out long enough. Make no mistake Putin will kill every man, woman and child and he has repeatedly said so loud and clear. He will be glad to do so and start over. He is not going anywhere and has only one option now.....defeat Ukraine and kill the government which is exactly what he will do. Long game it will fail.....again. The Ukrainians just don't want to be part of Russia and he cannot change that even leveling the country. He has already created a hatred for himself by the people and that will translate to his gov't in Ukraine.

It's clear what the EU, US and NATO position is. They see MAJOR expansion by Putin.....not Ukraine it won't end there. They know this. They made the decision NOT to fight and start WWIII and Ukraine is the world's sacrifice at the moment. They are trying to play the longer hand and make the economic situation so bad in Russia that everybody has had enough. Without WWIII there really is no other methodology. It's vital we get Europe off Russian gas and also target a ban on all Russian crude and petroleum products. Extend that ban to others that continue to trade with them worldwide. We also need to work on worldwide wheat production to replace all that wheat out of Russia as well.


----------



## KaGee

Ukraine as we knew it is gone. There is no going back now. Sad day for the world.


----------



## laguna21

Should get out, no way to win this one and not worth dying for


----------



## loweman165

laguna21 said:


> Should get out, no way to win this one and not worth dying for


You think he's stopping there? I hope so if not when do you stop him? In Poland? Germany maybe?


----------



## laguna21

He'll keep going, what can anyone do without putting more people at risk? How can he still be alive? Not sure but that might help? Still better than WW3


----------



## Lil' Rob

If Putin was put down...who replaces him? Another nut-job?


----------



## loweman165

Lil' Rob said:


> If Putin was put down...who replaces him? Another nut-job?


Good question. And assassination of the leader of any country is enough to start a war in itself, that's how WW1 got its start.


----------



## laguna21

Now is a good time to work towards independence so we are at least not helping fund these countries that hate us.


----------



## fastwater

As mentioned before...Ukraine is not in NATO. Obviously neither is Russia.
As NATO bylaws read...if the U.S. or any other NATO country puts boots on the ground in Ukraine against Russia it is a direct act of war against Russia by that country.
Long story short...we put boots on the ground in Ukraine...we have officially declared war on Russia.


----------



## cement569

welcome to WW3, i said 2 weeks ago that we were watching WW3 unfolding right before our eyes....think before you vote


----------



## loweman165

fastwater said:


> As mentioned before...Ukraine is not in NATO. Obviously neither is Russia.
> As NATO bylaws read...if the U.S. or any other NATO country puts boots on the ground in Ukraine against Russia it is a direct act of war against Russia by that country.
> Long story short...we put boots on the ground in Ukraine...we have officially declared war on Russia.


I get that but NATO didn't exist prior to WW2. And when the world watched a country go off the rails and start invading other countries, killing women and children, much of the world came together and kicked the s#!+ out of them. 
I feel like we're seeing the generation of "not my problem" rearing it's head. You think the young family in Ukraine leaving EVERYTHING behind would risk a world war for a little help? Risk a world war to save the life of thier 10 year old? You bet your ass they would become so would we in their position. 
The 1940s generation would have and did step up in droves. Our last couple generation fights for rights alright. The right to change genders or inclusion and the like but have taken thier freedom for granted for so many years that they don't realize without it you have nothing. We're getting dragged into it regardless in one way or another. Send a squadron of A10s and make short work of the 40 mile long convoy that's been a sitting duck for 3 days now. I think his army would pee thier pants and run back to Russia.
Just my opinion.


----------



## AKAbigchief

BFG has it right.
Couldn’t agree more👍🏼


----------



## 9Left

loweman165 said:


> I get that but NATO didn't exist prior to WW2.
> Just my opinion.


 True... But back then, most countries didn't have enough nuclear power to level the world 10 times over either… They have that now.
Staying the hell out of there and avoiding a world war is the exact correct decision… We would all be freaking dead if we went over there


----------



## cement569

im thinking when russia does overtake the ukraine china will go after tiawan and then we will 2 world powers that countries will have to rely on to import all their goods....plain and simple


----------



## loweman165

cement569 said:


> im thinking when russia does overtake the ukraine china will go after tiawan and then we will 2 world powers that countries will have to rely on to import all their goods....plain and simple


Ok. That's probably true. So the next step should be stop wasting our tax payers money sending them equipment because with or without it they don't stand a chance. Let's lift the sanctions because all they'll do is Piss Putin off even more. Ignore the situation, Give Putin Ukraine, and let's hope everything gets back to normal. Sounds like the safest bet...for us.


----------



## CoonDawg92

So here’s the question - how much do you let him take? Where is the line? Let him take everything that is not a member of NATO?

I’m struggling with the EU not providing air support.


----------



## Saugeye Tom

Good evening! i am happy to say that this thread has pretty much stayed on track, if anyone has had a partial or whole post removed please take notice it may have been because political parties were mentioned Dont take removals personal please. let her roll, thanks everyone for playing well hope to see some of you at the get togeather, ST


----------



## Redheads

I read (no official report) where both Federal and Remmington were each sending 1 million rounds of ammo to Ukraine.

I also read that Richard Childress (NASCAR) is doing the same


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

China is not moving after watching this if anything it will give them more pause. Taiwan has significantly more advanced western weapons than Ukraine who was defenseless in comparison. China has no modern military success or battle readiness. They are smart and are watching every step of this to learn everything they can. China is in it for the long game.

China is more likely focusing on small gains while the world is occupied. Keep your eye on the dispute with India. They won’t make war but they may try again to assert their border moving.


----------



## twistedcatfish1971

...🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦.

In the end I have been following this situation very close with some nights waking up at 2 am and tv still on with that channel that has 4 networks at once going on. It's easy for me to be negative towards Russia and its aggressive/cowardice with this push into Ukraine. I honestly could care less about the political/right or wrong with this war. What's going on and the tactics with Putin's WAR...is unbelievable to be honest with this day n age! 

...Glory to Ukraine!!!👊🇺🇦...its hard for me to hold back what I really want to type here and now...

Don.


----------



## twistedcatfish1971

...I have seen pictures of Putin and his fishing adventures...

...follow my footsteps son.


----------



## gobucs6789

Russian Military is not that strong. We are! I cannot believe we are allowing this to happen.


----------



## gobucs6789

What do we stand for? We are going to fight for it one day or another, believe me!


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## gobucs6789

This man has scarified his life, and his families for freedom, and we do nothing! We do not even sanction their oil? I'm upset.....


----------



## FOWL BRAWL

gobucs6789 said:


> Russian Military is not that strong. We are! I cannot believe we are allowing this to happen.



We don't even protect our borders, why would we protect theirs?


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

I am chomping at the bit so bad my teeth hurt to make a complete reply!


----------



## bajuski

I've been glued to the news coverage during this crisis myself and can almost feel the pain of the Ukrainian people. What did impress me though is how accurately Americans predicted what Putin's plans are. Putin kept denying that he was going to invade and Biden kept insisting that he was. The world thought that he was senile but Putin did exactly that Biden said he would. We have some good people embedded deep in Putin's circle no doubt and we pretty much know what his next move is. It's not going to be good I bet


----------



## loweman165

I was encouraged this morning when I woke up to hear about a temporary seize fire. then i learned it was to allow women and children to evaluate the city. Sooo you take over a ghost town of a city then what? Move in Russian residents? Or let it sit empty and rot? I'm sure they'll loot and rob it as they've already have been robbing Ukrainian banks all week.


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## cement569

its as if the whole thing is scripted


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

Of course the US has folks embedded inside Russia….just as Russia has folks embedded in the states. It matters not who the president is that information is always there.

The US is weak at this moment and we are seeing that. Our leadership is not respected around the world and has not been in some time. This is not a political post it is fact - just listen to the world reporting.

The US leadership is seen so far as very weak in our handling of this situation. In previous crisis the US has led the charge whatever that may be. We have done little but follow and that is all we will continue to do under our weak leadership. 

It has been Boris Johnson taking the lead for the west. Just read the news…United States viewed as weak on this entire situation. Putin and China share this view and it was a major factor in this move. We have led nothing throughout this entire process other than information sharing that went straight back to Putin via China..that didn’t work out so well!

unfortunately China and Russia are correct in their evaluation. We need way better leadership in this country and to gain the respect of our peers. Maybe then we can make ground with other world powers that lack respect for us currently. Sad but true


----------



## bajuski

Now here you go, I'm proud of something America got right and you go bashing it. For Christ's sake, even the divided Congress is working together to see how we can help. Why can't you? Why do you think Putin is not walking into Kiev as he thought he would, it's because we've been training Ukranians and supplying them very heavily in the past year. Putin never expected this kind of resistance from them or the reaction of the world


----------



## loweman165

bajuski said:


> Now here you go, I'm proud of something America got right and you go bashing it. For Christ's sake, even the divided Congress is working together to see how we can help. Why can't you? Why do you think Putin is not walking into Kiev as he thought he would, it's because we've been training Ukranians and supplying them very heavily in the past year. Putin never expected this kind of resistance from them or the reaction of the world


There you go accusing people for "bashing ". We don't get an opinion? People here have mentioned what we're doing. Many times. We also say it's not enough. Putins taking Ukraine and displacing hundreds of thousands of civilians who did nothing wrong no matter what we've done so far. So we failed and Putin won. Did we try? We sure did but it wasn't nearly enough.


----------



## Fish-N-Fool

bajuski - I'm not sharing MY opinion, but the opinion of other nations and world leaders. The US leadership has been viewed weak since before Trump went into office and that has only gotten worse the last 6 years. I bashed nobody....you acted as if Joe Biden gathered the intelligence and was correct and on top of the situation. I just stated basically there isn't a lot of credit to the President there...you or I (or would have had the same information (or any other President). Of course we have trained Ukrainians and we will continue our support, but the fact is they can't win and we all know it. They have fought "Russia light" as Putin has frankly gone into this soft if you look at his two previous serious military invasions. He has held way back on the firepower he has used in this first week (opposing news outlets are praising him here saying he was trying to avoid civilian casualty and give them a chance to leave before leveling the cities).

As far as what Putin expected - sir you have no idea what the man expected. None whatsoever. Neither does western intelligence they are merely theorizing and grasping at straws. They don't know what his next move is just watch them speculate all over the place. They are trying to paint a narrative that just doesn't seem to be true if you look at facts. They want you to believe the operation is not going to plan, Putin is isolated, perhaps out of touch with the world, and even questioning his mental health. So how did this isolated, mentally declining, miscalculating individual get things correct, achieve his goals so far and call the bluff of NATO? Are the rest of the world leaders even worse off than Putin? No, he is the same calculated, intelligent world leader with going on 3 decades of experience. In 8 days he has already frankly gotten in position to achieve everything he set out to do publicly. 

Western news outlets would have you believe what you typed, however there is stark contrast reported from non-western biased news. In fact, it is the opposite as I shared....it was a VERY calculated move that Putin felt he had the power and upper hand to execute....and he has. He was correct. Have you ever stepped back outside your box and thought from another perspective?

Putin may or may not have miscalculated what Ukrainians thought but it won't matter when they are all dead or residing in another European country. This is day 9...let that sink in. It took the US almost a month to capture Baghdad and we had a HUGE technological advantage (they had no gps, no guided systems, no thermal - how do you think we waltzed up and destroyed their armor they didn't even see us in the night). And lets not forget the Iraqi people wanted us there as liberators right...so it was much easier. 

It is maddening and sad. There will be nothing left of Ukraine in a month if they refuse to surrender. The real pain is just about to get started after this evacuation I'm afraid.

Donate money is all I can do...and I just did when I got paid. I would encourage everybody to donate a small piece of their check each time you get paid to a humanitarian aide fund. We are using the International Rescue Committee who is on the ground in Poland trying to comfort and provide food and shelter to these refugees. 

I'm not going to post on the thread anymore I'll just read. It's clear most folks just want to gobble up BBC and US news and views. Take care and please donate a little if you can.


----------



## AmericanEagle

The Generals say there is a difference between taking ground and holding it. The Russians will eventually take a lot of ground. The Ukrainians haven’t forgotten the holodomor and many of them will fight to their death. An organized Ukrainian resistance fighting an urban gorilla war that is well supported from the other western countries could be very costly for the Russians. The Russians don’t have enough troops to control the cities but they will try to terrorize the Ukrainians into submission by by random violence, starvation, and infrastructure destruction.

The Mujahideen defeated the Russians in Afghanistan back in the eighties. IMHO there are a number of possible outcomes.


----------



## cement569

what fish-fool said is mostly true, our news media will never tell the truth and have been called out on it thousands of times. its almost as if they are controlled by someone. they sugarcoat one side of the fence and the other side of the fence they drag through the mud....so who knows what is really going on over there


----------



## ICENUT

As long as Putin stays out of a NATO country he will get everything he wants and there is nothing NATO or US other than aid can do about it.He can and probably will go after other breakaway republics of the former USSR and story is the same prayers and aid is all that can and will be done. The world is in a scary place right now lets just hope China doesn't want to push this issue with Tiawan.


----------



## baitguy

Fish-N-Fool said:


> The crude issue can be solved at a high level by the US making some policy / production changes, our neighbors up north in Canada following suit, and our middle eastern producers ramping up production. Not an easy task, but one that can be solved. Nobody seems to have the answer for all that natural gas:


and there is the issue, our fearless leaders are so focused on green-new-deal at any cost that they won't allow that ... we were energy independent and I believe a net exporter a mere15 months ago, now we're sucking up to countries that don't like us to please sell us more at triple the price it was ... current administration has their heads up their butts, what difference does it make to world climate change if the oil is produced here or anywhere else ... hell, it's probably a lot better here, we actually have some things in place to limit environmental impact, many don't bother so much ...


----------



## cement569

current administration heads are not up their butt, their heads are on their bank accounts. they have financial interests in both of these countries, they dont care about the ukraine as much as they lead on.


----------



## baitguy

gobucs6789 said:


> Russian Military is not that strong. We are! I cannot believe we are allowing this to happen.


you're leaving out a couple minor issues ... they have a lot of Nukes and Putin's just crazy enough to use them ... and Europe doesn't want to be cut off from his energy or have their infrastructure trashed w/another war ... many of those countries are at least quasi if not completely socialist and will care but not that much if he takes over Ukraine and probably Moldova as long as they're not disturbed ... NATO won't get involved unless he screws up and attacks one of them which he probably won't, he's very crafty ... sanctions help but stopping him will require more than that ... Russia could crush any European country individually, and possibly collectively if US stayed out ... there's like 28 countries in NATO, hope we don't have to find out if Ireland or Spain or Canada or Iceland, or USA for that matter, wants to step in w/Article 5 if say Estonia or Latvia gets invaded ... very dangerous world out there ...


----------



## mr max

I lived during the Cuban Missile Crisis in the last cold war & learned that a nuclear power will defend their perceived borders even at the potential cost of atomic armageddon.The warmonger pols,war profiteers.& their media shills promoting a no-fly zone which would have to entail bombing radar in Russia & killing Russia pilots is SUICIDAL & they should be held accountable.


----------



## SemperFi

You hear all sort of news; one minute United States purchase 10% of the oil now it's only 3% of oil from Russia. During the Obama adminstration Russia took over Crimea. Then President Biden, makes a statment maybe Russia might invade part of Ukrainian or all of it. The 10% or 3% only drop in the bucket. Remember the early 70's gas station closed by 7:00 p.m. Taking so long for aid to get there. Congress and senate both voted to stop purchase oil from Russia. Just wondering if Putin has something over President Biden, and the truth might come out.


----------



## cement569

not only him, i would imagine there are quite a few of these millionaire public servants who have their hand in the till. hence....the keystone pipeline


----------



## mr max

AmericanEagle said:


> The Generals say there is a difference between taking ground and holding it. The Russians will eventually take a lot of ground. The Ukrainians haven’t forgotten the holodomor and many of them will fight to their death. An organized Ukrainian resistance fighting an urban gorilla war that is well supported from the other western countries could be very costly for the Russians. The Russians don’t have enough troops to control the cities but they will try to terrorize the Ukrainians into submission by by random violence, starvation, and infrastructure destruction.
> 
> The Mujahideen defeated the Russians in Afghanistan back in the eighties. IMHO there are a number of possible outcomes.


I agree there are a number of possible outcomes.The Mujahideen jihadists with West backing defeated the Soviets that gave rise to the Taliban,Al-Qaeda & 9/11.The blowback from this backing could be a nuclear holocaust.


----------



## KPI

Don’t get involved IMO not on our soil at this point we should be self sufficient and not count on others we are the United States we can accomplish anything 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lazy 8

I heard that we are giving Poland some fighter jets to give to Ukraine.
I also heard that Rubio is in talks with Venezuela for their petroleum.


----------



## loweman165

Lazy 8 said:


> I heard that we are giving Poland some fighter jets to give to Ukraine.
> I also heard that Rubio is in talks with Venezuela for their petroleum.


Yeah we're trying to give Poland F-16s or one of the older models so they can have those so they can give Ukraine older Migs that thier pilots are trained on. They still don't know how their gonna get the Migs into Ukraine. I still say we should have gave the Ukraine pilots a crash course on the A10.


----------



## bobk

We should save our warthogs. Just my thoughts. They are bada**.


----------



## CoonDawg92

A-10 would be wuppin’ some a$$ right now.

Pics of dead kids in the street on the news tonight tore me up, had to turn it off.

Everyone says we don’t want to start WW3. I have concluded that Putin already started it and will take every country outside NATO if allowed.

Now the question is, if it’s already started, who is going to finish it?


----------



## cement569

hopefully not the united states, we have fought wars for other countries over the years and all we got out of it was thousands of young americans dead for something most of them never even understood. not to mention more countries hating us


----------



## bulafisherman

Hmmm we were lied to for 2 years about COVID. Is there any reason to believe anything we are hearing about Ukraine. Shut your phone's down,turn the tell a vision off and think spring. It'll be here soon!


----------



## cement569

i still say everything that has happened in the last 2 years is scripted. we went straight from covid to russia invading the ukraine, but its a relief not hearing about covid 24/7


----------



## 9Left

Jeeez.... I just looked at my 401(k)… I literally hope someone drops a bomb on putins face So we can all just try to get back to normal


----------



## Lewis

Here is another view. I don't believe anything that comes out of Washington or the media.
Here's Your 'Red Pill' Moment for the Russia-Ukraine War (townhall.com)


----------



## cement569

interesting read, and you have to somewhat believe everything they say because it sounds legit


----------



## 1MoreKast

9Left said:


> Jeeez.... I just looked at my 401(k)… I literally hope someone drops a bomb on putins face So we can all just try to get back to normal


Had to check mine too...wish I hadn't. Better make it two bombs, just to make sure.


----------



## DavidRK

I've never seen the main stream media and Hollywood types so pro war before.


----------



## bajuski

I understand if you want to quit buying oil from Russia just on principles. But how will that hurt Putin? The price of oil will just go up worldwide and he will make just as much money while preserving his resources.


----------



## BFG

AKAbigchief said:


> BFG has it right.
> Couldn’t agree more👍🏼


Yeah, I probably stepped into a steaming pile of something that is better left off this thread. My reply got nuked. Whatever.....take it for what it is worth: Putin is going to do whatever he wants, when he wants, and there isn't anything we can do about it. Shut him off financially? Can't completely happen, not when Western Europe gets 40% of their natural gas from Russia. "Sanctions" are a political term guise for "we can't really do anything, but we'll make it look like we are doing something.." 

A lot of Ukrainians are going to die, which is a direct result of their departure from the former Soviet Union many years ago. I feel terribly for those folks, but there is no good solution for them except for them to leave their country. They can fight, but they'll die fighting a war that they cannot win. One of the biggest dogs in the world is in a bad mood, and he wants his street corner back. 

It's like the whole world is standing on the edge of a pier watching folks get eaten by sharks, trying to help them out of the water when they can, but in reality they can't do anything but watch them get eaten. 

Biden says just a bit ago that we won't drill anymore on US soil. We have to go green. Fantastic.


----------



## Shad Rap

1MoreKast said:


> Had to check mine too...wish I hadn't. Better make it two bombs, just to make sure.


Make it 3...I'm down 27,000.


----------



## Lil' Rob

Shad Rap said:


> Make it 3...I'm down 27,000.


Damn...now I'm sick to my stomach...looked at my 401k...I'm down 15% since beginning of the year.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

Here's a conundrum: How come every news outlet in the USA including Fox News has given the current administration a pass, completely perfect NO COVERAGE of the mexican border debacle? Is the Ukraine/oil/nato problem conveniently obfuscating the fact that the illegals entering our country, and the admin blind eye supporting, provide significant parallel analog to putin invading neighboring country for his own gain? Sorry, that turned into two questions.


----------



## cement569

theres no money to be made off of our southern border, theres plenty to be made off of the russia/ukraine crissis. thats the only answer i could come up with


----------



## threeten

Our aid money can support refugees from both borders


----------



## meisjedog

These are a few days past the Expiry date, do you think they are still good? I live just within 270, so I'm not sure it matters. Humorous, but not!


----------



## fastwater

threeten said:


> Our aid money can support refugees from both borders


Since our border doors have been virtually kicked wide open with 1000's waltzing into this country everyday that we are paying for...plus us sending the much needed $ in support to Ukraine...apparently you are correct.


----------



## AmericanEagle

Looks like Poland has offered fighter jets to the USA in plan to help Ukraine. Poland would give 28 Mig 29s to the USA who could then give them to Ukraine.

Poland offers fighter jets to US in plan to help Ukraine | AP News


----------



## fishless

AmericanEagle said:


> Looks like Poland has offered fighter jets to the USA in plan to help Ukraine. Poland would give 28 Mig 29s to the USA who could then give them to Ukraine.
> 
> Poland offers fighter jets to US in plan to help Ukraine | AP News


That would probably cause Putin do declare it an act of war because United States was giving them instead of Poland


----------



## cement569

i still cant comprehend this whole russia / ukraine thing. is this the same russia who had the whole world living in fear during the cold war of the 50,s and 60,s? sorry folks but russias military complex could have wiped out the ukraine in less than a week if it wanted. are they trying to draw more countries in so we can have a full scale ww3? my guess is there are things going on behind the scenes that we will never know about....purely political warfare


----------



## Dovans

9Left said:


> Jeeez.... I just looked at my 401(k)… I literally hope someone drops a bomb on putins face So we can all just try to get back to normal


Yes sir... I picked a fine time to retire. Leaving the 401 and other retirement accounts alone and will survive off S.S.


----------



## cement569

Dovans said:


> Yes sir... I picked a fine time to retire. Leaving the 401 and other retirement accounts alone and will survive off S.S.


same here, i can live off of s.s just fine plus my other outside interests


----------



## Lewis

This evening as I was replacing a worn out 3' x 5' American flag that I always fly in front of the house, for some reason it brought a tear to my eye. Anger and frustration I guess, to realize where we are headed fast. Kind of a somber moment.


----------



## BeerBatter

Don’t count America out
Best strongest country in the world
Fly that flag with pride


----------



## Saugeyefisher

BeerBatter said:


> Don’t count America out
> Best strongest country in the world
> Fly that flag with pride


Amen!


----------



## cement569

never once in my life counted america out, just the people running it into the ground....in the last year


----------



## Muddy

I haven’t checked in on OGF since Putin started this invasion. I got real motivated to go through all of our emergency provisions and update/organize/restock on supplies. I hadn’t done it for a couple years. I’ve been busy, but now I’m done and feel good. God speed to the people of Ukraine. I hope everyday that Putin gets a bullet ASAP and goes to a special place in hell. I can’t fathom that a single man can be responsible for the misery and death of so many people. It’s made me question a lot of things. I thought that the human race had evolved past this level of evil, but I was wrong and that makes me sad.


----------



## Bluewalleye

The 1st thing the white house does is puts a halt to the keystone pipeline. And stops giving out more permits for new areas to look for Natural gas and oil. The U.S. for the 1st time was energy independent until that. Now with what is going on in east Europe, him and his clones are bending on their knees trying to find other countries that will sell them oil. All of these other countries are very shady and led by more evil leaders. But lets get in bed with them says the U.S.
And now this guy is getting ready to sign an old nuclear deal with Iran (that was demolished cause it is a horrible deal), another evil empire that wants nothing more than to get a nuke weapon so they can use it on Israel and the U.S. Now does anyone really believe that Israel is going to let Iran have a nuclear weapon of any kind? NO. So that is another war that will break out.
And who is going to have the backs of Iran? Russia. So keep an eye out...
Does anyone get the idea that the new leader of this country loves making deals with very evil people? Kind of thinking that he is comfortable with evil.
I could get preachy here and tell you that these things are biblical and that the players are all getting into place. But not sure if anyone wants to hear about it.


----------



## 9Left

cement569 said:


> same here, i can live off of s.s just fine plus my other outside interests


I'm glad to hear that you guys are doing well with that… My parents seem to do just fine… I always worry about people in retirement and people that are deciding to retire in times like these... I still have about 17 years to go… So my best option is just hold on and ride out this storm


----------



## loves2fishinohio

Thank you mods for not shutting this down. Community, let's make sure that doesn't happen. Keep this about the people of Ukraine. I'm glad to hear we are on the verge of helping even more.


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

Bluewalleye said:


> The 1st thing the new guy in the white house does is puts a halt to the keystone pipeline. And stops giving out more permits for new areas to look for Natural gas and oil. The U.S. for the 1st time was energy independent until he did that. Now with what is going on in east Europe, him and his clones are bending on their knees trying to find other countries that will sell them oil. All of these other countries are very shady and led by more evil leaders. But lets get in bed with them says the new leader of the U.S.
> And now this fearless (mindless) leader is getting ready to sign an old nuclear deal with Iran (that Trump demolished cause it is a horrible deal), another evil empire that wants nothing more than to get a nuke weapon so they can use it on Israel and the U.S. Now does anyone really believe that Israel is going to let Iran have a nuclear weapon of any kind? NO. So that is another war that will break out.
> And who is going to have the backs of Iran? Russia. So keep an eye on that front if the fearless leader who loves evil, does make the deal with Iran.
> Does anyone get the idea that the new leader of this country loves making deals with very evil people? Kind of thinking that he is comfortable with evil.
> I could get preachy here and tell you that these things are biblical and that the players are all getting into place. But not sure if anyone wants to hear about it.


seems we're on the precipice of the great reset, where there will be a strict divide between the power elite and the rest of us. I remember getting taken to task in early 2009 when I remarked that obama was just using his time as president as training to be king of the world and running down the USA as a prelude.


----------



## Safety1st

Lewis said:


> This evening as I was replacing a worn out 3' x 5' American flag🇺🇲 🇺🇲 🇺🇲 🇺🇲 that I always fly in front of the house, for some reason it brought a tear to my eye. Anger and frustration I guess, to realize where we are headed fast. Kind of a somber moment.


Canned food is now down from 16oz to 15oz. Ice cream is no longer 2qts but 1.5qts. Chips are down to a 9.5oz bag, cans of coffee...

Wonder just how much they'd love to downsize that ^^ !
(NOTE: I was going to add a USA flag icon from the smilies function, alas, there's lots of other countries flags but NO USA FLAG)🇺🇲


EDIT: FOUND IT THNX! (FWIW I entered ''flag'' as a search, it only showed 3 rows
❔)


----------



## bobk

🇺🇸 It’s there.


----------



## Dovans

🇺🇸


----------



## 9Left

🇺🇸


----------



## Lazy 8

Putin, and/or Russian troops have just bombed a childrens hospital in Ukraine. That's pitiful. I hope he is labeled a war criminal and not safe wherever he may go.


----------



## Southernsaug

> I could get preachy here and tell you that these things are biblical and that the players are all getting into place. But not sure if anyone wants to hear about it.


Is that a trumpet I hear and the Son rising in the east?


----------



## EnonEye

Personally I'm confused as to why the entire of europe hasn't stepped up, I mean they've only had since the end of WWII to prepare for this exact scenario, not like Russia just became a communist axis of evil empire just yesterday, really?


----------



## BFG

9Left said:


> I'm glad to hear that you guys are doing well with that… My parents seem to do just fine… I always worry about people in retirement and people that are deciding to retire in times like these... I still have about 17 years to go… So my best option is just hold on and ride out this storm


Smart folks retire with no debt. This allows them to live off what SS provides and whatever other source of income they may have planned around. For whatever reason some folks incur a bunch of debt late in their working lives, and well...that doesn't bode well for comfort. Pay off your house, your cars, everything....then you can retire. Until then, keep hitting that alarm clock every day. 

As I said in my other comment that was modded....Putin does not care anything about the Ukrainian people. Bombing a children's hospital is nothing compared to what those folks are about to endure for standing up to him.


----------



## ICENUT

For the same reason we have not.Hiroshima and nagasaki ring any bells.Putin's just crazy enough to do it and the whole world knows it.The sanctions won't do much but hurt the regular people just like they hurt ours,they will just make the situation worse and the real possibilty the nut will do the unthinkable!


----------



## cement569

BFG said:


> Smart folks retire with no debt. This allows them to live off what SS provides and whatever other source of income they may have planned around. For whatever reason some folks incur a bunch of debt late in their working lives, and well...that doesn't bode well for comfort. Pay off your house, your cars, everything....then you can retire. Until then, keep hitting that alarm clock every day.
> 
> As I said in my other comment that was modded....Putin does not care anything about the Ukrainian people. Bombing a children's hospital is nothing compared to what those folks are about to endure for standing up to him.





BFG said:


> Smart folks retire with no debt. This allows them to live off what SS provides and whatever other source of income they may have planned around. For whatever reason some folks incur a bunch of debt late in their working lives, and well...that doesn't bode well for comfort. Pay off your house, your cars, everything....then you can retire. Until then, keep hitting that alarm clock every day.
> 
> As I said in my other comment that was modded....Putin does not care anything about the Ukrainian people. Bombing a children's hospital is nothing compared to what those folks are about to endure for standing up to him.


your right about planning before you retire. i paid our house off and no car payments and i have one credit card...lowes in case something breaks around the house. and my wife still works full time, and putin will get what he wants no matter what anybody says or does because they know he has one finger on the red button


----------



## ICENUT

BFG said:


> Smart folks retire with no debt. This allows them to live off what SS provides and whatever other source of income they may have planned around. For whatever reason some folks incur a bunch of debt late in their working lives, and well...that doesn't bode well for comfort. Pay off your house, your cars, everything....then you can retire. Until then, keep hitting that alarm clock every day.
> 
> As I said in my other comment that was modded....Putin does not care anything about the Ukrainian people. Bombing a children's hospital is nothing compared to what those folks are about to endure for standing up to him.


Smart folks do retire when they plan correctly,You must live within your means,But there is one problem all of us retirees have Its INFLATION. When your income is fixed forever there is an end to it.Not all can go out and work again for various reasons such as health.A small example this past year our social security payments(you know the ones we payed into for our entire working lives well it went up we got a historic raise amounted to about 20 bucks increase woppie doesn't even cover the cost of the gas prices now let alone medicare raised its rates and if you have a supplemental it went up also.Lesson Do Plan Wisely but its not at all that peachy!!


----------



## laguna21

Dam!!!! Focus you guys for cripe sake!!!! You're gonna get this locked.


----------



## SemperFi

They all play there little games!


----------



## cement569

wow, we have a really good thread going on here. very good insights, opinions, and really good posts,s and replies. dont let your emotions get the best of you


----------



## loves2fishinohio

I've thought a bit before posting this reply. When you see the images of innocent people being killed day after day, it makes you think about what we should and shouldn't do. The number of innocent lives that will be lost in the coming days/weeks/months is going to continue to grow. We've fought wars for fewer reasons. 

Putin is using the nuclear threat as just that, a threat. He's using it knowing that nobody is going to challenge him except the people fighting for the country he is trying to occupy. I country that has enjoyed its freedom from Russian dictatorship for many years, and has prospered. Now that country is being destroyed, and people are dying. Not just soldiers, but innocent people as well.

I find it disgusting that we aren't doing more to help. It's time to call his bluff, and that's what it is, a bluff. Send a few carrier groups into the Med. Get our men and women up in the sky from Europe and other US bases in the area. We don't have to fire a shot. They have nukes, we have nukes, I don't think Putin is stupid enough to use them, but it's clear that if he does, we both have enough weapons to wreck the world as we know it. My personal belief is that it will never come to that, but I also think that if we stand up to the bully he will back down.


----------



## cement569

it could be that the reason putin is not afraid could be, and i say could be that china has his back. they have sit back and havent said or done anything to help stop this invasion and im afraid if we get involved all hell would break loose...thats just my theory, i could be wrong


----------



## Dovans

loves2fishinohio said:


> I
> 
> I find it disgusting that we aren't doing more to help. It's time to call his bluff, and that's what it is, a bluff. Send a few carrier groups into the Med. Get our men and women up in the sky from Europe and other US bases in the area. We don't have to fire a shot. They have nukes, we have nukes, I don't think Putin is stupid enough to use them, but it's clear that if he does, we both have enough weapons to wreck the world as we know it. My personal belief is that it will never come to that, but I also think that if we stand up to the bully he will back down.


I feel like Putin is purposely doing criminal deeds to draw us into war. Why?


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

The USA would have a difficult time prosecuting all-out non-nuclear war on two major fronts, and nato without the USA is almost statistically defenseless.


----------



## 9Left

cement569 said:


> your right about planning before you retire. i paid our house off and no car payments and i have one credit card...lowes in case something breaks around the house. and my wife still works full time, and putin will get what he wants no matter what anybody says or does because they know he has one finger on the red button


Not trying to derail… But I completely agree… I have a pretty good ways till retirement… But I finally got my wife on board with a schedule to have everything paid off completely before retirement… Plus a good chunk of money in savings… Added with 401(k) savings… The only part I slightly disagree with is a credit card… I got my wife on board three years ago to pay off credit cards, cut them up… And never use them again.... we have no credit cards… And it's a beautiful thing… Everyone thinks that you need them… But you don't, build up a comfortable nest egg in savings and credit cards will never be needed... it's a beautiful thing that I can tell a credit card company to "eff off".... because there's just no reason to have it. and spare me the blah blah blah speech about mileage points… there is literally trillions of miles that people rack up and never use.... don't even get me started on credit scores… People in their 20s and 30s now live and die by that stupid score... and it will never enter their mind that they don't even need it. GET.OUT.OF.DEBT.


----------



## laguna21

Give him what he wants, for now. As time passes, someone will eventually get to him, best case scenario that person will be one of his own. At least stops the fighting and Ukrainian people dying. Will they ever have peace while he's in charge? Can they win this war?


----------



## bobk

Ukraine could have chose neutrality and this mess may not have happened. Ukraine has poked the bear many times in the last years. They had to know this was coming. The death of so many innocent people is horrible for sure, but Ukraine’s government isn’t the most honorable bunch either.


----------



## AmericanEagle

There is no such thing as neutrality with the Russians. When has an honest word ever come out of Putin’s mouth? The Ukrainians remember the Holodomor in the early 1930’s when the Russians took all their wheat and almost 4 million Ukrainians starved to death. They will never be Russian slaves, as they say in New Hampshire “Live Free or Die”.

IMHO the USA should not be putting US troops on the ground but we do need to give them all the weapons we can. If Poland wants to give us MIG-29s to give to Ukraine we should do it. There are many other weapons we should be giving them.

We shouldn’t fear Russia. They would get their clock cleaned in a conventional war with NATO. Terrorist and cyber attacks are much more likely than a direct confrontation. Putin won’t start a nuclear war on purpose. Russia would be destroyed. The heightened tensions do increase the possibility of a nuclear war starting accidentally like the Russian sub that almost launched missiles during the Cuban missile crisis or the false alarm in 1983 when a soviet air defense officer refused to pull the trigger.


----------



## Dovans

9Left said:


> Not trying to derail… But I completely agree… I have a pretty good ways till retirement… But I finally got my wife on board with a schedule to have everything paid off completely before retirement… Plus a good chunk of money in savings… Added with 401(k) savings… The only part I slightly disagree with is a credit card… I got my wife on board three years ago to pay off credit cards, cut them up… And never use them again.... we have no credit cards… And it's a beautiful thing… Everyone thinks that you need them… But you don't, build up a comfortable nest egg in savings and credit cards will never be needed... it's a beautiful thing that I can tell a credit card company to "eff off".... because there's just no reason to have it. and spare me the blah blah blah speech about mileage points… there is literally trillions of miles that people rack up and never use.... don't even get me started on credit scores… People in their 20s and 30s now live and die by that stupid score... and it will never enter their mind that they don't even need it. GET.OUT.OF.DEBT.


I think the better response is GET. CONTROL. OF.; YOUR. MONEY. I have no problem retiring with two loan payments, and balance on a credit card. Credit scores are important. Shows your mature and responsible enough to handle your finances. Meaning pay your bills.


----------



## bajuski

Ukraine has in fact stated that they could live with neutrality and willing to talk to the Russians about Crimea and the Eastern regions. Thats not enough for the bear though because he will not stop with Ukraine, he wants the USSR back. Yes he is threatening the world with the nuclear button, and he will threaten us again and again until he gets everything he wants with the same threat. You got to help stop Putin now, once he crosses the Ukranian border into a NATO country, it's the end of civilization as we know it.
China is playing it smart, they're just sitting back watching the west's tactics and resolve. They want to see what the world is gonna do when they attack Taiwan should Putin win.


----------



## 9Left

Dovans said:


> I think the better response is GET. CONTROL. OF.; YOUR. MONEY. I have no problem retiring with two loan payments, and balance on a credit card. Credit scores are important. Shows your mature and responsible enough to handle your finances. Meaning pay your bills.


maybe... But a credit score is nothing but a number that says you're GOOD at borrowing money and paying it back... And the better your number is… The deeper the banks know that they can reach in your pocket without a problem… you were correct about managing your money… But manage it to the point where you just have to pay cash for everything… Credit scores are truly stupid.
.... And yes mods… We will take this to PM conversation… Sorry for the D rail


----------



## laguna21

bajuski said:


> Ukraine has in fact stated that they could live with neutrality and willing to talk to the Russians about Crimea and the Eastern regions. Thats not enough for the bear though because he will not stop with Ukraine, he wants the USSR back. Yes he is threatening the world with the nuclear button, and he will threaten us again and again until he gets everything he wants with the same threat. You got to help stop Putin now, once he crosses the Ukranian border into a NATO country, it's the end of civilization as we know it.
> China is playing it smart, they're just sitting back watching the west's tactics and resolve. They want to see what the world is gonna do when they attack Taiwan should Putin win.


Should we be preparing to take control of Cuba, Nicaragua,Guatemala and Venezuela? Would solve some problems here........


----------



## Shad Rap

Dave_E said:


> You're pretty quick to forget some numbers. Putin's puppet was caught and busted trying to withhold $200M in military aid from Ukraine. Remember? Puppet was singing Putin's song about how evil and corrupt Ukraine was. Puppet was trying to set the stage for easier Russian invasion back then for Putin.
> 
> Before that, the puppets kid was dumb enough to admit that Russian banks were the ones funding all of puppets golf courses. Should take less than 5 minutes to find that if you cared to look.
> 
> Keep on ignoring reality and wondering who "Putin has something on" when the answer is so obvious.


Feel better?


----------



## Lazy 8

Not trying to derail (even though I'm good at it) but we have an older CC that pays some decent "points" for every purchase we make. We try to use it to buy everything we can. Then convert the points to either gas cards or purchases on the big river site. Then pay the balance off at the end of the month. No balances. I'm sure the CC company hates us. We've been doing it for years and years. 
I now return you to your regularly....


----------



## bdawg

Putin, as a former KGB officer, is looking at this strategically for Russia. I don't think he's crazy. I think he's a cold, calculating person who is playing the political chess match like during the cold war era. Once Ukraine's leadership switched from pro russian to pro west, he took Crimea to give his navy a good base in the Black Sea. He did this while we were too busy in the middle east to do anything. Then, he helped the rebels in the east of Ukraine, hoping that they would overthrow Ukraine's government. After 8 years, they are in a stalemate and Putin is tired of it. He invaded to knock down Ukraine's military power and take over the east side of Ukraine and make it an independent buffer state to better protect Russia. He knows that Americans are tired of war right now. We could have gone further into Syria to take out ISIS for good and Syria's regime, but we didn't because there was no public support for it. This war will be over when Putin has done enough destruction to get Ukraine to agree to his conditions, or if Putin is overthrown in Russia.

I'm glad to see Ukraine is fighting for its freedom and democracy, unlike Afghanistan. I'm glad that we are supplying the missles needed to deplete Putin's armor and air forces. We also provided the intelligence information to help Ukraine prepare for the invasion and to prepare and unite our European allies. Ukraine is doing a good job slowing the Russian advance and picking off Russian armor and air power where they can. Putin has already shown that he doesn't care about civilian casualties. He just wants to win the war as fast as possible. Ukraine is in for a hard fight, but they are united in their cause. 

This is a high risk move for Putin and it gets riskier the longer the war goes on as his economy is wrecked. The stakes are high for NATO as well. If NATO goes into Ukraine and starts kicking Russia's butt, I can see this thing quickly spiraling into a world war. Belarus, China and North Korea will help Russia. China will invade Taiwan, North Korea will invade South Korea, Iran and Isareal will be fighting. Everyone's navy and air force will be going at it and ballistic missiles will be flying everywhere.


----------



## bajuski

I guess some people may have had bad personal experience using credit cards but to me it's a no brainer. I don't like to dig thru my wallet and pockets to pay for everything, it's so much easier just to swipe my card and pay for everything by pushing a button just once a month. And, I get free money for using it, Hell yeah, I'll take 30 or $40 a month for doing nothing.
I was hacked twice and it's no big deal, they won't make you pay for anything you didn't charge.


----------



## bad luck

If you like to travel, just like fishing or working, with a little research/work/planning, you can VERY EFFECTIVELY play the credit card game and travel for free (air/hotel). There's so much natural beautiful sights to see, I'm trying to see as much as I can....... You don't pay interest if you simply have direct withdrawal on all of your bills, inclusive of CC's. We haven't paid interest in 20 years. 


I support the Ukrainians 100%, but something seems off........the EXACT same press that told us for 3 years, with 100% certainty that Russia Russia Russia stole the 2016 prez election, as well as NUMEROUS other weekly scandals (how much ice cream and fast food the prez ate, daily "leaks from anonymous sources....)--ALL of which have now been debunked and rather the "other side" was behind these----is the exact same press reporting all of these facts now on Ukraine. And gas prices were going up a month ago, but now getting noticed? Again, I don't know anything, but something seems missing......maybe nothing?


----------



## ICENUT

9Left said:


> maybe... But a credit score is nothing but a number that says you're GOOD at borrowing money and paying it back... And the better your number is… The deeper the banks know that they can reach in your pocket without a problem… you were correct about managing your money… But manage it to the point where you just have to pay cash for everything… Credit scores are truly stupid.
> .... And yes mods… We will take this to PM conversation… Sorry for the D rail


When you get a little older and you are on medicare or a supplemental health unsurance most of your meds are 90 day supply thru whomever and without a credit card well i'm not sure you can even get them mailed to you.Do you pay cash when you buy a card? You finance it right isn't that a form of a credit card buy now pay later with interest?? Unless you well off there are emergency issue that prop up just don't have enough cash at that time. Purchases at brick and mortar stores and online purchases you need a credit card there not evil just gota use common sense.


----------



## ICENUT

Meant to say a car not a card sorry


----------



## fastwater

Thread is veering off topic with all the credit card posts.
Let's please get it back on topic.
Thanks.


----------



## bobk

[QUOTE


fastwater said:


> Thread is veering off topic with all the credit card posts.
> Let's please get it back on topic.
> Thanks.


Thanks!


----------



## bajuski

fastwater said:


> Thread is veering off topic with all the credit card posts.
> Let's please get it back on topic.
> Thanks.


See what you done Lazy, you led us astray again


----------



## garhtr

I found it interesting that the Ukrainian Gov't is arming citizens, just maybe more of the law abiding citizens should have already been armed even if they owned rifles with high capacity magazines  
Anyone know what the gun policy was like in Ukraine pre invasion ?
They need our help IMO, No fly zone, aircraft, missiles and maybe even boots if it comes to that.
No way Putin stops until somebody punches him in the mouth .
Good luck and----Pray !


----------



## cement569

wow sounds like your ready to jump head first into ww3, ive, i figured we learned our lesson after jumping in to help other countries just to watch our young americans die or be scarred for life for something most of them didnt understand. just better off not to act on emotions and sit back and watch how things unfold


----------



## garhtr

cement569 said:


> sit back and watch how things unfold


We saw this show in 1939
He'll only get stronger and more emboldened. 
I've gotten morw political than I want too so I'm out of this.
I hope we do the "right" thing and not just the safe thing.
Good luck !


----------



## BeerBatter

I hope Ukraine can hold up
Give them Russians all they want
I was surprised to learn Ukraine is not as big asTexas 
And only a third as big as Alaska 
And those are only 2 States of the USA
Proud to be an American 
Will fight and die if need be


----------



## 9Left

...


----------



## 9Left

...


----------



## CoonDawg92

garhtr said:


> No way Putin stops until somebody punches him in the mouth .


As much as we want it not to be, this is the way.

I just don’t know why it always has to be us.


----------



## One guy and a boat

garhtr said:


> They need our help IMO, No fly zone, aircraft, missiles and maybe even boots if it comes to that.
> No way Putin stops until somebody punches him in the mouth .
> Good luck and----Pray !


Agree 100 % and it's unfortunate. Don't want to see American blood spilled, just feel Putin made the choice for us. Needs to be all of NATO, with USA being the big player. And absolutely pray, dark days ahead. 


Kip


----------



## loweman165

garhtr said:


> I found it interesting that the Ukrainian Gov't is arming citizens, just maybe more of the law abiding citizens should have already been armed even if they owned rifles with high capacity magazines
> Anyone know what the gun policy was like in Ukraine pre invasion ?
> They need our help IMO, No fly zone, aircraft, missiles and maybe even boots if it comes to that.
> No way Putin stops until somebody punches him in the mouth .
> Good luck and----Pray !


From what I've read they have some of the loosest gun restrictions of any European country including being able to own semi automatic rifles.


----------



## Matt63

Anyone see the video of the little girl singing the frozen song in the bomb shelter. Google it something nice during this s*#t. Sorry don't have a link seen it on the news.


----------



## Lewis

An absolutely masterful breakdown of Russia's strategic interests and motivations around this situation.


----------



## BFG

I have an open mind, and do my best to try to gather info from a variety of sources. There is a distinct mode of thinking that says Putin is losing in Ukraine. That same mindset also includes that the Russian army is nothing compared to what it once was, they are NOT advanced in their technology, and their men do NOT want to fight in Ukraine. Both sides do agree that Russia has 6,000 nukes. Of that, we can most definitely be certain. 

The next couple weeks are going to be very interesting. As the dust begins to settle and lines of separation emerge, we shall see if Putin really wants Ukraine or not. Every day this drags on he (IMO) is one step closer to this becoming another Afghanistan, which they couldn't afford in the 80's, and they most definitely cannot afford right now. 

I will say that for two days in a row, gas prices have not changed on my way to work. What goes up, must come down. At least that is what I tell myself. 

Have a great day OGF'ers....and God Bless America.


----------



## cement569

the russiain invation has very little to do with the price of gas, it was steadily climbing over the last year and now its a good reason to gouge the american people.just like when we have a hurricane out in the gulf. ive said it before this conflict is purely political, there is a whole lot more going on behind the distraction than we will ever know. and dont expect msm to give truthful accounts of whats going on over there...news sells


----------



## DavidRK

bad luck said:


> If you like to travel, just like fishing or working, with a little research/work/planning, you can VERY EFFECTIVELY play the credit card game and travel for free (air/hotel). There's so much natural beautiful sights to see, I'm trying to see as much as I can....... You don't pay interest if you simply have direct withdrawal on all of your bills, inclusive of CC's. We haven't paid interest in 20 years.
> 
> 
> I support the Ukrainians 100%, but something seems off........the EXACT same press that told us for 3 years, with 100% certainty that Russia Russia Russia stole the 2016 prez election, as well as NUMEROUS other weekly scandals (how much ice cream and fast food the prez ate, daily "leaks from anonymous sources....)--ALL of which have now been debunked and rather the "other side" was behind these----is the exact same press reporting all of these facts now on Ukraine. And gas prices were going up a month ago, but now getting noticed? Again, I don't know anything, but something seems missing......maybe nothing?


I agree. I've never seen the media and Hollywood types to pro war before.


----------



## Lewis

A lot of interesting info is just starting to come out regarding shady bio labs in Ukraine.


----------



## cement569

do you mean the bio labs owned by the u.s? again theres alot going on behind the scenes that will never be made public. its as if someone is really scared and letting putin have his way


----------



## DUCKHEAD

One guy and a boat said:


> Agree 100 % and it's unfortunate. Don't want to see American blood spilled, just feel Putin made the choice for us. Needs to be all of NATO, with USA being the big player. And absolutely pray, dark days ahead.
> 
> 
> Kip


Ukraine is not part of NATO. We just got out of Afghanistan and we are ready to jump into another. Why always us, because we just can't keep our nose out of things. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. It's like USA went bankrupt and the states separated into their own countries. Years later the president of California wants to bring us back together but Texas doesn't want to. Should Russia come into that war between the states?


----------



## One guy and a boat

DUCKHEAD said:


> Ukraine is not part of NATO. We just got out of Afghanistan and we are ready to jump into another. Why always us, because we just can't keep our nose out of things. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. It's like USA went bankrupt and the states separated into their own countries. Years later the president of California wants to bring us back together but Texas doesn't want to. Should Russia come into that war between the states?


Understand it's not part of NATO. Probably a mistake they weren't allowed to join. And it's always us because you can't be the leader of the Free world and not accept the responsibility for it. I don't think Putin is stopping with Ukraine so it's going to happen at some point. And your analogy only works if California was Communist,which is a whole other discussion lol. Seriously I hope Putin comes to his senses but my experience with bullies is that he won't. 

Kip


----------



## cement569

i see that among the sanctions Mcdonalds pulled out of russia. little do they know that they just saved alot of russian lives


----------



## bobk

Lewis said:


> An absolutely masterful breakdown of Russia's strategic interests and motivations around this situation.


Watched the video when rooster posted it a few days ago. Kinda what I meant by Ukraine poking the bear. Everyone should watch the video.


----------



## Lazy 8

bajuski said:


> See what you done Lazy, you led us astray again


Sawee. It's in my DNA.


----------



## loweman165

Well it's been 2 weeks and doesn't look like Putins slowing down. This morning now we're talk chemical weapons. He thinks the US and Ukraine is plotting to us them and we say he is. The US is promising "more severe Sanctions " and "strong condemnation" if Putin dares to use them. That leads me to think if only we would have Sanctioned and condemned Hitler we could have saved millions of lives...


----------



## bad luck

Quoting Winston Churchill “Americans can be counted on to do the right thing….. after they’ve exhausted all other possibilities”


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## ohiotuber

loweman165 said:


> Well it's been 2 weeks and doesn't look like Putins slowing down. This morning now we're talk chemical weapons. He thinks the US and Ukraine is plotting to us them and we say he is. *The US is promising "more severe Sanctions " and "strong condemnation" if Putin dares to use them. *That leads me to think if only we would have Sanctioned and condemned Hitler we could have saved millions of lives...


Yeah! I'll bet Putin's scared to death!! 

Mike


----------



## bajuski

In the seventies the Russians were invited to Afghanistan by the then government to fight off the mujahideen. They were kicking ass and damn near had the war won until the US stepped in and provided the mujahideen with stinger missiles which brought down many, many helicopters, aircraft, and the Russian tanks. The Russians were forced to retreat back to Russia, they were not willing to take so many losses and deaths of their soldiers.
I think this is the course we are taking and I think it is the right one, We can't step into Ukraine yet or provide a no fly zone right now either. Putin never imagined he would get this kind of resistance, the people of Russia can only stop this war like they did their Afghanistan one.
Many of us are critical of the way we reacted, let's hear what you think we should do to end this bloodbath


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

wait, california's not communist?


----------



## laguna21

bajuski said:


> In the seventies the Russians were invited to Afghanistan by the then government to fight off the mujahideen. They were kicking ass and damn near had the war won until the US stepped in and provided the mujahideen with stinger missiles which brought down many, many helicopters, aircraft, and the Russian tanks. The Russians were forced to retreat back to Russia, they were not willing to take so many losses and deaths of their soldiers.
> I think this is the course we are taking and I think it is the right one, We can't step into Ukraine yet or provide a no fly zone right now either. Putin never imagined he would get this kind of resistance, the people of Russia can only stop this war like they did their Afghanistan one.
> Many of us are critical of the way we reacted, let's hear what you think we should do to end this bloodbath


Give Russia what they want, keep the sanctions on them and hope the people there get tired enough of being poor and overthrow the government or you know the other......or both. Would likely take a long time but stop the killing.


----------



## cement569

bajuski said:


> In the seventies the Russians were invited to Afghanistan by the then government to fight off the mujahideen. They were kicking ass and damn near had the war won until the US stepped in and provided the mujahideen with stinger missiles which brought down many, many helicopters, aircraft, and the Russian tanks. The Russians were forced to retreat back to Russia, they were not willing to take so many losses and deaths of their soldiers.
> I think this is the course we are taking and I think it is the right one, We can't step into Ukraine yet or provide a no fly zone right now either. Putin never imagined he would get this kind of resistance, the people of Russia can only stop this war like they did their Afghanistan one.
> Many of us are critical of the way we reacted, let's hear what you think we should do to end this bloodbath


its got nothing to do with me or most americans. if it was happening in our country i would agree but its not. why does the united states always stick their nose in other countries affairs? unless our polititans have business interests in the ukraine. until then let them fight it out


----------



## loves2fishinohio

US journalist killed, Russia hitting targets close to the Poland border, and now Iran lobbing rockets into Iraq. We'll get sucked into this yet.


----------



## loweman165

18 days or so into the invasion, slowly getting worse. Today I watched a mother weeping hold her only surviving child. Had to leave her dead child's body behind. I saw box trucks full of freezing elderly and children still trying to flee and being shelled in the process. I finally came to a person definitive answer to what I think should be done. This is only my opinion on how I now feel. 
I think 100% involvement by NATO including obviously the USA. Either kill Putin with air strikes IN HIS COUNTY!, or being WW3 and take the inevitable outcome. I don't need to be reminded what would be the probable outcome, honestly mankind could use a reset. Seems the last 15-20 years it's been all down hill. And hearing people say" it's over there and not my problem " is exactly what I'm talking about. I hope we can all look in the mirror and feel good about ourselves when this is all over. And by "all " I mean every country other than Ukrain, their doing their part plus some.
As I said, this is the conclusion I've come to and I'm sure I'm alone in these feelings but it's what they are. Not proud of them by any means but I know it's what needs to happen.


----------



## ohiotuber

loweman165 said:


> 18 days or so into the invasion, slowly getting worse. Today I watched a mother weeping hold her only surviving child. Had to leave her dead child's body behind. I saw box trucks full of freezing elderly and children still trying to flee and being shelled in the process. I finally came to a person definitive answer to what I think should be done. This is only my opinion on how I now feel.
> I think 100% involvement by NATO including obviously the USA. Either kill Putin with air strikes IN HIS COUNTY!, or being WW3 and take the inevitable outcome. I don't need to be reminded what would be the probable outcome, honestly mankind could use a reset. Seems the last 15-20 years it's been all down hill. And hearing people say" it's over there and not my problem " is exactly what I'm talking about. I hope we can all look in the mirror and feel good about ourselves when this is all over. And by "all " I mean every country other than Ukrain, their doing their part plus some.
> As I said, this is the conclusion I've come to and I'm sure I'm alone in these feelings but it's what they are. Not proud of them by any means but I know it's what needs to happen.


No, you're not alone.

Mike


----------



## cement569

the media knows their job, they show these photos and clips to get all the bleeding heart americans fired up because they are preparing us for ww3. and there will be young american men and women die or get mamed for life. and when and if its over and the dust clears everyone will go back to a normal life minus the us military members who will die. and die for something that most of them never understand....thats my opinion


----------



## loweman165

cement569 said:


> the media knows their job, they show these photos and clips to get all the bleeding heart americans fired up because they are preparing us for ww3. and there will be young american men and women die or get mamed for life. and when and if its over and the dust clears everyone will go back to a normal life minus the us military members who will die. and die for something that most of them never understand....thats my opinion


So are you in the "not my problem" crowd or the " it's not really happening" crowd? 
We might all be better off feeling that way honestly. Keep us out of trouble right??


----------



## Dovans

Putin is purposely egging The United States to get involved. I dont know why.


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## cement569

not sure what the not my problem crowd is, and yes keep us out of trouble because we have enough problems going on in our own country to worry about whats going on in other countries. and by the way...how many countries ran to our aid on 9/11


----------



## cincinnati

loves2fishinohio said:


> US journalist killed, Russia hitting targets close to the Poland border, and now Iran lobbing rockets into Iraq. We'll get sucked into this yet.


I sincerely hope that NOBODY wants to start shooting because a reporter was killed in a war zone!!


----------



## dirtandleaves

cement569 said:


> the media knows their job, they show these photos and clips to get all the bleeding heart americans fired up because they are preparing us for ww3. and there will be young american men and women die or get mamed for life. and when and if its over and the dust clears everyone will go back to a normal life minus the us military members who will die. and die for something that most of them never understand....thats my opinion


Every military member knows what the possibilities are when they sign those papers and take the oath to defend the constitution against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. I know, I was once that kid. Every active duty member/veteran has written a blank check payable to the United States government for the amount of, up to and including their life


----------



## cement569

dirtandleaves said:


> Every military member knows what the possibilities are when they sign those papers and take the oath to defend the constitution against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. I know, I was once that kid. Every active duty member/veteran has written a blank check payable to the United States government for the amount of, up to and including their life


defend our constitution, not russias constitution or ukraines constitution...big difference


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## dirtandleaves

cement569 said:


> defend our constitution, not russias constitution or ukraines constitution...big difference


There is, no doubt. But you go and do what you're told. It's as simple as that


----------



## One guy and a boat

I don't think this about constitutions or Podunk little Democratic countries. It's about the US being perceived as weak and vulnerable right now. The bullies of the world see it and are trying to take advantage of it. Ukraine is just the jumping off point. Iran tested the waters firing some missiles. China and North Korea will probably follow suit soon. Isolationism will only work for so long, eventually it's at your doorstep. It's just a matter of at what point do you jump in. It's really sad that in 2022 we have to worry about this, but in my opinion it's coming. 

Kip


----------



## cement569

One guy and a boat said:


> I don't think this about constitutions or Podunk little Democratic countries. It's about the US being perceived as weak and vulnerable right now. The bullies of the world see it and are trying to take advantage of it. Ukraine is just the jumping off point. Iran tested the waters firing some missiles. China and North Korea will probably follow suit soon. Isolationism will only work for so long, eventually it's at your doorstep. It's just a matter of at what point do you jump in. It's really sad that in 2022 we have to worry about this, but in my opinion it's coming.
> 
> Kip
> [/QUOTE
> yes your right that its 2022 and we have to worry about this. alot has changed in the last year and 2 months...and not for the good


----------



## dirtandleaves

Agree with both above statements


----------



## 9Left

.. I think at one time in our past… War included going over there and fighting on the ground kicking some ass… But it ain't that way anymore… A world war is the absolute last thing we need… Do you realize what that would include? Nuclear weapons… And lots of them... Devastating cyber attacks that shut down power grids...this wouldn't be "sending our boys over there and cheering them on" kind of thing… This would be watching you, me, your neighbors, your family, your friends, all die and get wiped out from nuclear bombs... The Absolute most tragic thing we could do right now is to Get involved in a nuclear war. I don't think that myself, or anyone on this forum, could even begin to describe the amount of devastation that would occur if this were to turn into a war. Military tactics ,computer and bomb technology is absolutely nothing like it was in Vietnam or
World War II…


----------



## Safety1st

''us here'' and thus ''they there'' kinda ended with ''world wide trade.'' Notice, I said kinda.

And Russian cyber attacks during this administration already started, unless some have forgotten last springs east coast gas shutdowns.

I am getting emails from trusted publicly available sources, get prepared for more cyber attacks. Hopefully our civilian & military authorities can intercept & keep stopping them. But I hard copied my bank accounts anyways.


----------



## bobk

I don’t have confidence in our administration to fight a war. No thanks. Stay the heck out of it. We already have a war in our own country.


----------



## loweman165

bobk said:


> I don’t have confidence in our administration to fight a war. No thanks. Stay the heck out of it. We already have a war in our own country.


Unfortunately your not the only one that knows we're incapable of fighting right now.


----------



## bobk

loweman165 said:


> Unfortunately your not the only one that knows we're incapable of fighting right now.


Agree.


----------



## bajuski

loweman165 said:


> Unfortunately your not the only one that knows we're incapable of fighting right now.


Maybe not, but the Ukrainians have proven that they are and are only asking for the Russian built MIG 29's that Poland is willing to part with and stinger missiles. Hell, they're doing pretty good holding off the Mighty Russian army with shoulder fired weapons. If Ukraine doesn't stop them he will have his USSR back and maybe all of Europe. It's a lot better to stop them now than when the bear gets bigger and stronger and we have to fight him on our soil.


----------



## doegirl

This war is an ethnic struggle that has it's roots in centuries of conflict. Truth is Ukraine never was an independent state until 1991. Either the region was a part an empire(s) or the Soviet Union. The western part was under Polish then Austro-Hungarian rule.. Eastern Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire. This whole "Nazi" thing Putin keeps reiterating probably refers to when in WW2 Ukrainian leaders teamed up with the Germans to push Russia out of Ukraine. After the war, many in Ukraine viewed those who collaborated with the Reich as heros. Putin believes Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia, especially the eastern part with a large ethnic Russian presence.
So, it's pretty much Putin vs the Western world: Those who recognize Ukraine as an independent state against Putin who uses history to justify that it never was and rightfully belongs to Russia.
We need to tread carefully...


----------



## laguna21

doegirl said:


> This war is an ethnic struggle that has it's roots in centuries of conflict. Truth is Ukraine never was an independent state until 1991. Either the region was a part an empire(s) or the Soviet Union. The western part was under Polish then Austro-Hungarian rule.. Eastern Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire. This whole "Nazi" thing Putin keeps reiterating probably refers to when in WW2 Ukrainian leaders teamed up with the Germans to push Russia out of Ukraine. After the war, many in Ukraine viewed those who collaborated with the Reich as heros. Putin believes Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia, especially the eastern part with a large ethnic Russian presence.
> So, it's pretty much Putin vs the Western world: Those who recognize Ukraine as an independent state against Putin who uses history to justify that it never was and rightfully belongs to Russia.
> We need to tread carefully...


Great explanation! Has a Kosovo feel to it, should have NEVER been involved in that one either!!


----------



## CoonDawg92

loweman165 said:


> 18 days or so into the invasion, slowly getting worse. Today I watched a mother weeping hold her only surviving child. Had to leave her dead child's body behind. I saw box trucks full of freezing elderly and children still trying to flee and being shelled in the process. I finally came to a person definitive answer to what I think should be done. This is only my opinion on how I now feel.
> I think 100% involvement by NATO including obviously the USA. Either kill Putin with air strikes IN HIS COUNTY!, or being WW3 and take the inevitable outcome. I don't need to be reminded what would be the probable outcome, honestly mankind could use a reset. Seems the last 15-20 years it's been all down hill. And hearing people say" it's over there and not my problem " is exactly what I'm talking about. I hope we can all look in the mirror and feel good about ourselves when this is all over. And by "all " I mean every country other than Ukrain, their doing their part plus some.
> As I said, this is the conclusion I've come to and I'm sure I'm alone in these feelings but it's what they are. Not proud of them by any means but I know it's what needs to happen.


You are not alone. I wish there were a better alternative (wait for Putin to die and hope for better successor? Hope he stops there?)

I think it will be easier to stop it now rather than later.

I don’t think Ukrainians will be attacking us with guerilla warfare like in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.

I don’t think we will ever see as much of the world united against Russia as we do now.

I don’t know where you draw the line when it comes to avoiding conflict to avoid a potential nuclear war. All the way up to an attack on our soil?

Somebody tell me where he stops if he is left unchecked. I don’t want to die with my family in a nuclear blast, or maybe worse survive and deal with the fallout. 

I also don’t want to let a madman destroy everything in his path and continue wreaking pain and suffering on innocents.


----------



## Deadeyedeek

I dont think we have a choice, we are going to get sucked into this yet! As soon as China helps the idiot out and gives him help, well what do you think is going to happen? Its gonna get ugly before it ever gets better, I just hope were ready for it, I DONOT have faith in this administration for help.


----------



## loweman165

Deadeyedeek said:


> I dont think we have a choice, we are going to get sucked into this yet! As soon as China helps the idiot out and gives him help, well what do you think is going to happen? Its gonna get ugly before it ever gets better, I just hope were ready for it, I DONOT have faith in this administration for help.


Especially now that we're threatening China with sanctions. That's biting off one hell of a mouthful. I've been saying for over a year now tht Russia, China and North Korea will be the new Axsis powers. People thought i was crazy....i could be.


----------



## DUCKHEAD

I don't think we are ready for that big of a war. Economics or American leaders. We should never have created the monster of China, from them being allowed into favored status with WTO. Russia now feels stronger backed by them, we are in debt 30 trillion, and much of our goods come from China. Have you heard the saying your a slave to your debt. Also people today don't know how to make do without things. Our world realize on jobs for the economy, in ww2 most of the country was more independent and mostly farms. There maybe a time to get In but I don't think now is the time especially just to show the world we are not weak. China is even benefiting off this Economicly. We need to break away from them and start to hurt their economy.


----------



## SemperFi

HISTORY OF UKRAINE
Ukraine was the center of the first eastern Slavic state, Kyivan Rus, which during the 10th and 11th centuries was the largest and most powerful state in Europe. Weakened by internecine quarrels and Mongol invasions, Kyivan Rus was incorporated into the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and eventually into the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The cultural and religious legacy of Kyivan Rus laid the foundation for Ukrainian nationalism through subsequent centuries. A new Ukrainian state, the Cossack Hetmanate, was established during the mid-17th century after an uprising against the Poles. Despite continuous Muscovite pressure, the Hetmanate managed to remain autonomous for well over 100 years. During the latter part of the 18th century, most Ukrainian ethnographic territory was absorbed by the Russian Empire. Following the collapse of czarist Russia in 1917, Ukraine achieved a short-lived period of independence (1917-20), but was reconquered and endured a brutal Soviet rule that engineered two forced famines (1921-22 and 1932-33) in which over 8 million died. In World War II, German and Soviet armies were responsible for 7 to 8 million more deaths. Although Ukraine achieved independence in 1991 with the dissolution of the USSR, democracy and prosperity remained elusive as the legacy of state control and endemic corruption stalled efforts at economic reform, privatization, and civil liberties.


----------



## cement569

so what history is telling us is this is no different than the middle east who have been fighting since time began. and probably will still be fighting when time ends


----------



## DUCKHEAD

One thing we should do also is tell all those nato countries that border Ukraine is we want help unless you incorporate a 2nd amendment into your constitution. Ukraine just hand out weapons when they were attacked, little late. Maybe if Putin knew every civilian had an AK he would have thought twice. I know if I were the leader of Poland or those other countries I would do it right now.


----------



## bobk

DUCKHEAD said:


> One thing we should do also is tell all those nato countries that border Ukraine is we want help unless you incorporate a 2nd amendment into your constitution. Ukraine just hand out weapons when they were attacked, little late. Maybe if Putin knew every civilian had an AK he would have thought twice. I know if I were the leader of Poland or those other countries I would do it right now.


Second amendment request from this administration?


----------



## Deadeyedeek

When pigs fly.. bobk!


----------



## loves2fishinohio

The video the Ukraine President showed during his speech to Congress brought a few tears to my eyes. What's most sad is that even if we decided to help militarily, we are just too late. 

There was a time we didn't scare so easily, it isn't that way anymore. We stood up for what was right. Now, we just impose sanctions, send weapons and otherwise turn a blind eye. 

I still say you fight a bully by standing up to him. We have the assets in the area to provide immediate support. Steam 2-3 carrier groups into the Med. That should call his bluff.


----------



## laguna21

There was also a time when not everyone has weapons of mass destruction


----------



## ICENUT

loves2fishinohio said:


> The video the Ukraine President showed during his speech to Congress brought a few tears to my eyes. What's most sad is that even if we decided to help militarily, we are just too late.
> 
> There was a time we didn't scare so easily, it isn't that way anymore. We stood up for what was right. Now, we just impose sanctions, send weapons and otherwise turn a blind eye.
> 
> I still say you fight a bully by standing up to him. We have the assets in the area to provide immediate support. Steam 2-3 carrier groups into the Med. That should call his bluff.


Yes but we only stood up to bullies like Sadam,Afgahanstan,Kuwait none really with 6000 nuclear weapons.Iran,China,North Korea all testing us and calling our bluff,and i fear it's only going to get worse down the road.This administration seems to only care about woke social stuff!


----------



## SConner

loves2fishinohio said:


> The video the Ukraine President showed during his speech to Congress brought a few tears to my eyes. What's most sad is that even if we decided to help militarily, we are just too late.
> 
> There was a time we didn't scare so easily, it isn't that way anymore. We stood up for what was right. Now, we just impose sanctions, send weapons and otherwise turn a blind eye.
> 
> I still say you fight a bully by standing up to him. We have the assets in the area to provide immediate support. Steam 2-3 carrier groups into the Med. That should call his bluff.


Not sure what you mean by “scare easily”. The US sat out on WWII from 9/3/39 until 12/7/41 when Japan dragged us in. Were we scared then? Was there a reason to be scared then? Why did we stay out of it until Pearl Harbor? We are 2 weeks into current situation in Ukraine and response has been understandably measured. In a world of nuclear proliferation, a measured response seems sensible. Like everyone my heart goes out to the people of Ukraine. But charging head long into a conflict on another continent, into a country that is not a NATO ally before attempting other means of punishing the aggressor seems premature.


----------



## laguna21

Everyone complaining about our current administration including me, what more can we safely do right now? I'd make sure the countries taking all these refugees are well taken care of, couldn't be more impressed with Poland!


----------



## bajuski

For those of us that can afford it, we can send a few dollars for humanitarian aid. I chose the Ukranian Red Cross. I have close relatives in Slovakia and even though they can hardly afford it, they're cleaning out their pantries to help the unfortunates crossing the border. They are very afraid that they're next


----------



## laguna21

Church near us (Hartville) is accepting all kinds of things to send over, I'll get a list and post it as soon as I can


----------



## Dave_E

SConner said:


> Not sure what you mean by “scare easily”. The US sat out on WWII from 9/3/39 until 12/7/41 when Japan dragged us in. Were we scared then? Was there a reason to be scared then? Why did we stay out of it until Pearl Harbor? We are 2 weeks into current situation in Ukraine and response has been understandably measured. In a world of nuclear proliferation, a measured response seems sensible. Like everyone my heart goes out to the people of Ukraine. But charging in head long on a conflict on another continent, to a country that is not a NATO ally before attempting other means of punishing the agressor seems premature.


The importance of a strong NATO is becoming more obvious to the world.
It's insane that not long ago some people were parroting the "idea" of the evils of NATO and that we should abandon it.
More misinformation and Putin influence coming to light.


----------



## Rooster

Maybe some other member countries need to think about their contribution?









Infographic: Where NATO Defense Expenditure Stands in 2022


This chart shows military spending of NATO countries and estimated share of GDP in 2022.




www.statista.com


----------



## Ol' Whiskers

I think the one to get out of is the UN.


----------



## fastwater

Dave_E said:


> The importance of a strong NATO is becoming more obvious to the world.
> It's insane that not long ago some people were parroting the "idea" of the evils of NATO and that we should abandon it.
> More misinformation and Putin influence coming to light.


NATO might be a good thing if all countries sitting at the table that agrees something needs to be done about a given situation contributes their fare share. But since 1949...that has never happened.
I for one am tired of the U.S. having to end up bearing the bulk of the burden both mostly in loss of American soldiers but also $ and resources while other NATO countries that voted to get into said situation sit back...cheerlead and donate if anything...pom poms.
And FWIW...the 'some people' you are referring to were/are also tired of the loooong history of the U.S. getting taken advantage by NATO every time something kicked off in a foreign country and the heads of NATO got together crying something had to done about it.
Those 'some people' just finally had the conasta's for once to stand up and say,
"you may not have the manpower or the $ to contribute what the US does but you have resources or something you will contribute if you want the US to get involved."


----------



## cement569

thats what the other NATO countries want is to bleed america dry. thats why we are trillions in debt, and i seen where we are sending around a billion in aid to the ukraine. for what? we have major problems in our country that need to be adressed but our leaders just turn a blind eye to american citizens. again...there is more going on behind the scences that we as americans will never know..unbelievable what has happened to our country in 14 short months


----------



## CoonDawg92

Red Cross x2, my work will match my contribution, check to see if yours will.


----------



## Saugeye Tom

Dave_E said:


> The importance of a strong NATO is becoming more obvious to the world.
> It's insane that not long ago some people were parroting the "idea" of the evils of NATO and that we should abandon it.
> More misinformation and Putin influence coming to light.


Yes . We were the only ones putting out in nato. We should have stayed out. Better that way


----------



## laguna21

Who came to protect or offer aide to us during pearl harbor or 9/11? And looking back at the Korean war, should we have been involved in that one? 40k Americans died and another 100k wounded, and they're still divided! Humanitarian aide yes, involved militarily NO! Edited to add, while Kosovo didn't result in many American casualties, our country and NATO'S reputation sure went to hell, arguably supporting the wrong side of that one.


----------



## Dave_E

fastwater said:


> NATO might be a good thing if all countries sitting at the table that agrees something needs to be done about a given situation contributes their fare share. But since 1949...that has never happened.
> I for one am tired of the U.S. having to end up bearing the bulk of the burden both mostly in loss of American soldiers but also $ and resources while other NATO countries that voted to get into said situation sit back...cheerlead and donate if anything...pom poms.
> And FWIW...the 'some people' you are referring to were/are also tired of the loooong history of the U.S. getting taken advantage by NATO every time something kicked off in a foreign country and the heads of NATO got together crying something had to done about it.
> Those 'some people' just finally had the conasta's for once to stand up and say,
> "you may not have the manpower or the $ to contribute what the US does but you have resources or something you will contribute if you want the US to get involved."


Agree on all parts except that leaving NATO and withholding Ukrainian military aid were Putin’s agenda. He wanted both to make his insane plans easier and ‘some people’ fell for it hook line and sinker. And still are.

Anyone taking Putin’s side or implying that a communist Russian country invading a sovereign democratic neighbor is completely un-American. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Saugeye Tom

Rooster said:


> Maybe some other member countries need to think about their contribution?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infographic: Where NATO Defense Expenditure Stands in 2022
> 
> 
> This chart shows military spending of NATO countries and estimated share of GDP in 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com


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## Dave_E

Damn right they should! And we should force that issue.

It doesn’t change the facts that Putin’s influence here needs acknowledged and squashed, not ignored 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Deadeyedeek

Suppose the Iron Dome will work? Just a matter or time before Putin or the other nut jobs try it!


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## Ol' Whiskers

Israel refused to give Ukraine Iron Dome for fear the russians would overtake Ukraine snd then have access to the workings of the protective system.


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## loves2fishinohio

cement569 said:


> thats what the other NATO countries want is to bleed america dry. thats why we are trillions in debt, and i seen where we are sending around a billion in aid to the ukraine. for what? we have major problems in our country that need to be adressed but our leaders just turn a blind eye to american citizens. again...there is more going on behind the scences that we as americans will never know..unbelievable what has happened to our country in 14 short months


Not trying to be political in any sense, but I agree that we need to do a better job of looking out for our home team. All the billions of dollars we spend helping others out, a portion of it should be diverted into helping our citizens.


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## loves2fishinohio

Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.


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## BFG

SConner said:


> Not sure what you mean by “scare easily”. The US sat out on WWII from 9/3/39* until 12/7/41 when Japan dragged us in. *Were we scared then? Was there a reason to be scared then? Why did we stay out of it until Pearl Harbor? We are 2 weeks into current situation in Ukraine and response has been understandably measured. In a world of nuclear proliferation, a measured response seems sensible. Like everyone my heart goes out to the people of Ukraine. But charging head long into a conflict on another continent, into a country that is not a NATO ally before attempting other means of punishing the aggressor seems premature.


FDR had cut off Japan's oil. FDR forced their hand. FDR's legacy was turning into a disaster. He knew exactly what he was doing, and exactly what would happen. Japan had no choice _but _to attack the United States. When you impose sanctions on those who can then become desperate, you can potentially force the hand of the desperate, and in that case (IMO) the Japanese had no choice. The US economy was going through the Great Depression at the time. Fighting a war on two sides of the world kick-started the American economy and the Greatest Generation built the foundation that would bolster the US economy for nearly three decades. In time, things began to change. Interestingly enough, had the US not gotten involved in China prior to Pearl Harbor, it is quite likely that Japan would have taken over at least part of Eastern China. The Flying Tigers prevented that from happening. Had that happened....I'm not so sure that Japan bombs Pearl Harbor.

There have been many over the past 50 years in this Country who have carried the message about getting in bed with Russia and China. At some point, the message was blurred. To be very clear, Communists care not for their people. This is evident when you travel to places like Beijing which hosted the Olympics. Beautiful venues in which athletes compete, yet not 2 blocks away people are defecating in the streets, living in alleys, and starving to death. Let us not forget this is also the same country that imposed a "one child" law which resulted in literally thousands upon thousands of baby girls being murdered after birth. 

Biden, Congress, and all of the political advisors need to be very careful over the next few weeks. I am empathetic with those in Ukraine. They are fighting for their homelands, but it is NOT our fight. This is where we all must be careful in what we believe and take away from what we are seeing and being told. The US needs to support the NATO members in the area but it cannot get involved in direct conflict. Doing so would be catastrophic to modern man and everything we know. Putin does not care about anything else besides Mother Russia. We owe it to ourselves to stay at arms length on this one. The longer it drags on, the less likely it will be that Putin will succeed. He's getting close to economic check-mate. His forces are poorly supplied, and morale is awful. The clock is ticking, but he won't go away easily. Is he so desperate that he will push the big red button? Let us hope not.

Pray for the World. Pray for Ukraine. Pray for the USA.


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## cement569

BFG, couldnt agree more. we have our leaders and especially the media showing bleeding heart pictures and stories trying to get americans on the bandwagon for war just like they did with the vaccines. they are as easy to figure out as a 3 year old child, p.s...do you think the ukraine will pay us back for the billion in aide we sent them?


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## CoonDawg92

BFG said:


> FDR had cut off Japan's oil. FDR forced their hand. FDR's legacy was turning into a disaster. He knew exactly what he was doing, and exactly what would happen. Japan had no choice _but _to attack the United States. When you impose sanctions on those who can then become desperate, you can potentially force the hand of the desperate, and in that case (IMO) the Japanese had no choice. The US economy was going through the Great Depression at the time. Fighting a war on two sides of the world kick-started the American economy and the Greatest Generation built the foundation that would bolster the US economy for nearly three decades. In time, things began to change. Interestingly enough, had the US not gotten involved in China prior to Pearl Harbor, it is quite likely that Japan would have taken over at least part of Eastern China. The Flying Tigers prevented that from happening. Had that happened....I'm not so sure that Japan bombs Pearl Harbor.
> 
> There have been many over the past 50 years in this Country who have carried the message about getting in bed with Russia and China. At some point, the message was blurred. To be very clear, Communists care not for their people. This is evident when you travel to places like Beijing which hosted the Olympics. Beautiful venues in which athletes compete, yet not 2 blocks away people are defecating in the streets, living in alleys, and starving to death. Let us not forget this is also the same country that imposed a "one child" law which resulted in literally thousands upon thousands of baby girls being murdered after birth.
> 
> Biden, Congress, and all of the political advisors need to be very careful over the next few weeks. I am empathetic with those in Ukraine. They are fighting for their homelands, but it is NOT our fight. This is where we all must be careful in what we believe and take away from what we are seeing and being told. The US needs to support the NATO members in the area but it cannot get involved in direct conflict. Doing so would be catastrophic to modern man and everything we know. Putin does not care about anything else besides Mother Russia. We owe it to ourselves to stay at arms length on this one. The longer it drags on, the less likely it will be that Putin will succeed. He's getting close to economic check-mate. His forces are poorly supplied, and morale is awful. The clock is ticking, but he won't go away easily. Is he so desperate that he will push the big red button? Let us hope not.
> 
> Pray for the World. Pray for Ukraine. Pray for the USA.


BFG these are well made points, and though I’m not in total agreement on what our current course of action should be, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. 

I have no faith in the US Government of the last 50 years, but would love for there to be a good strategic reason for us to hold the course of restraint. I can’t abide by lack of action for being “scared”, we have to be pursuing Putin’s demise whether it’s by wit or by punching him in the mouth.


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## bobk

cement569 said:


> BFG, couldnt agree more. we have our leaders and especially the media showing bleeding heart pictures and stories trying to get americans on the bandwagon for war just like they did with the vaccines. they are as easy to figure out as a 3 year old child, p.s...do you think the ukraine will pay us back for the billion in aide we sent them?


13 billion?


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## fastwater

bobk said:


> 13 billion?


We keep going Putin will be asking Ukraine for financial support rather than China.
Think this is as good a time as any for a reminder of the *2021 NATO *contribution chart:


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## night vision

13+Billion from a country that's 30+Trillion in Debt. U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time (usdebtclock.org)


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## laguna21

Darn expensive to be protectors of the free world. These numbers are absolutely disturbing!!


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## bdawg

The US will have to cut back on defense spending and helping everyone else in the world soon because of our debt load. We've already cut back on infrastructure spending(still funded less than needed for the long term), social security, social programs, education, and research/development. Have to get back to balancing the budget or our country will eventually fall like Rome.


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## BFG

bdawg said:


> The US will have to cut back on defense spending and helping everyone else in the world soon because of our debt load. We've already cut back on infrastructure spending(still funded less than needed for the long term), social security, social programs, education, and research/development. *Have to get back to balancing the budget or our country will eventually fall like Rome.*


Well, Rome tried to take control of the entire World. When they met them big Germans in Bavaria....it was all over for them dudes in skirts.


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## DUCKHEAD

CoonDawg92 said:


> BFG these are well made points, and though I’m not in total agreement on what our current course of action should be, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion.
> 
> I have no faith in the US Government of the last 50 years, but would love for there to be a good strategic reason for us to hold the course of restraint. I can’t abide by lack of action for being “scared”, we have to be pursuing Putin’s demise whether it’s by wit or by punching him in the mouth.


What about holding off because if we get in the Ukraine conflict then China might see that as a good time to go after Tiawan. Then we would be having to fight 2 fronts. Be that slave to your debt may mean we can be the policeman for the world anymore. Unless these other countries want to start paying us back the money.


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## bobk

It’s never wrong to do the smart thing either.


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## fastwater

Dave_E said:


> Ukraine is getting destroyed. It's sad that helping a democratic country in need is seen as bad.
> 
> How is it that so many cry that our govt needs to spend all that money on our own citizens, yet when it starts to happen they cry that it's socialism and it needs to stop?
> 
> "It's never wrong to do the right thing." - Mark Twain.


Have noticed you seem to make a lot of assumptions in your posts.

"_Ukraine is getting destroyed. *It's sad that helping a democratic country in need is seen as bad."*_

While I can show you several posts in this thread including some of my own that states what we've contributed to both NATO as well as to Ukraine wishing other countries would step up to the plate and do more...can you show one post in this 414 post thread that implies helping Ukraine is *bad?

"How is it that so many cry that our govt needs to spend all that money on our own citizens, yet when it starts to happen they cry that it's socialism and it needs to stop? "*

The fact that there are some here in this country that get all giddy inside when the idea of socialism/communism comes up, that's not really on topic....but a short stab at just one of the hundreds of possible answers to your question...
...maybe actual 'citizens' in this country are more than fed up the millions of $'s being spent yearly on illegal immigrants that cross our open boarders in droves that some in this country seem to think they should be entitled to all the amenities(+more) of someone actually born here.


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## threeten

fastwater said:


> Have noticed you seem to make a lot of assumptions in your posts.
> 
> "_Ukraine is getting destroyed. *It's sad that helping a democratic country in need is seen as bad."*_
> 
> While I can show you several posts in this thread including some of my own that states what we've contributed to both NATO as well as to Ukraine wishing other countries would step up to the plate and do more...can you show one post in this 414 post thread that implies helping Ukraine is *bad?
> 
> "How is it that so many cry that our govt needs to spend all that money on our own citizens, yet when it starts to happen they cry that it's socialism and it needs to stop? "*
> 
> The fact that there are some here in this country that get all giddy inside when the idea of socialism/communism comes up, that's not really on topic....but a short stab at just one of many,many possible answers to your question...
> ...maybe actual 'citizens' in this country are more than fed up the millions of $'s being spent yearly on illegal immigrants that cross our open boarders in droves that some in this country seem to think they should be entitled to all the amenities(+more) of someone actually born here.


^^^^^^^^x2


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## 9Left

Dave E. .... Check out this video in it's entirety… It pretty much starts from the beginning and explains why Putin is doing what he's doing and how it all started… And why we are taking/not taking the actions that we are…FRONTLINE | Putin's Road to War | Season 2022 | Episode 2


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## cement569

preach it, x3. america should always come first.


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## 9Left




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## fasteddy

National debt???
I don't know why they even keep track of it.
Has it ever gone down substantially in the last, 30, 40,50 years????
Google says "3.5 down to 3.3 trillion in 1998-2001. WOW, WHAT PERCENTAGE IT THAT!!!
That's where the general population gets their reasoning "I don't care if I can afford it. I just want it." Also "spend all you have and a little bit more this year so next year you'll get a little bit more instead of the same or less".
Not how I live, and power to the people who do.
Yeah, it's supposed to mean something, and once did, but today, I have a hard time seeing it.


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## 9Left

as I try and follow this situation… It's been difficult to follow sources that are just factual and not trying to paint a picture… Personally, I have found front line(PBS) to be factual and present plainly what is going on… If anybody has any other sources, I would appreciate hearing about them… I'm trying to view this objectively and not subjectively in order to have a better understanding


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## cement569

good luck with that, any news outlet you watch paints a different picture of whats going on over there. so in other words we dont have a clue whats really going on over there...just what we are told to think. something smells to high heaven


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## cement569

give me your tired, your poor. that saying hasent been used in over 100 years. today the tired and poor are americans


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## loweman165

cement569 said:


> give me your tired, your poor. that saying hasent been used in over 100 years. today the tired and poor are americans


True but alot of the poor is self inflicted. And I'm one of the tired; tired of working so the "poor" can set home.


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## Cornstalk

I think we should worry about our own border first, not any other country who is never going to join NATO. not our monkey, not our circus....jmo...


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## CoonDawg92

DUCKHEAD said:


> What about holding off because if we get in the Ukraine conflict then China might see that as a good time to go after Tiawan. Then we would be having to fight 2 fronts. Be that slave to your debt may mean we can be the policeman for the world anymore. Unless these other countries want to start paying us back the money.


I get it, but I kind of hold the opposite view, might be a deterrent to China.


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## Ol' Whiskers

best deterrent: "Peace through Strength!"


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## cement569

the headlines earlier said our fearless leader is threatening china now if they back russia. does he forget that we owe china trillions of dollars? if he keeps messing around he just might pizz china off and they will come collecting. the last year i have felt that we are on a sinking ship and everyday we take on more water


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## bajuski

I know this is America, we change the course of our way every four years thru our votes but how can some of us be so heartless?


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## KaGee

bajuski said:


> I know this is America, we change the course of our way every four years thru our votes but how can some of us be so heartless?


Care to explain what you mean by calling some heartless?


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## Misdirection

Ol' Whiskers said:


> best deterrent: "Peace through Strength!"


4 weeks ago Russia was considered to have the 2nd best army in the world. Now it is clear that they are the 2nd best army in Ukraine.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk


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## bulafisherman

cement569 said:


> the russiain invation has very little to do with the price of gas, it was steadily climbing over the last year and now its a good reason to gouge the american people.just like when we have a hurricane out in the gulf. ive said it before this conflict is purely political, there is a whole lot more going on behind the distraction than we will ever know. and dont expect msm to give truthful accounts of whats going on over there...news sells


Exactly, the first thing lost in the fog if war is the truth, I don't buy for a minute how the mainstream news media is presenting this, they lied to us for 2 years about COVID and they are lying to us about this conflict between Russia and the Ukraine, I personally think it has to do more with a curtain criminal organization here in the US and the dealings in Ukraine. I sure as hell don't buy what's being put out by the media.


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## cement569

im with you on that %100. i have said before that russia has an elite military complexe, and the ukraine is a very small country and russia could wipe them off of the face of the earth in a week or less. the media is playing off that russia is struggling in this conflick, and yes they lied about covid for 2 years just to keep viewer ratings up which equals big $$$....p.s over half of covid deaths were people who died with covid not from covid. criminal indeed


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## KaGee

I've let this thread go on because I have a personal connection with what is happening in Ukraine.
However, I will shut it down unless conversation gets back in line. 

Stay on topic. Most importantly, any more personal attacks will result in loss of forum access.


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## Ruminator

I also have a personal connection with this invasion in Ukraine.
I'm staying away from any political comments and am focusing on the horrific humanitarian crisis going on in Ukraine.
I lived for most of a month in Kyiv between two trips there to help a small church in a poor area of Kyiv in their outreach efforts into their neighboring communities.
The aid and assistance from church-based outreach is critically important in normal times for the disadvantaged and poor communities.
This is magnified many times over now.
I have been helping Summit Missions Int'l, a local christian ministry in Green, Ohio (near me) that has worked in eastern Europe for thirty years, to raise donations for humanitarian aid for the fleeing refugees.

Summit Missions is forwarding 100% of every dollar donated to them to their Ukrainian contacts who have stayed in Ukraine to help the fleeing refugees, and the many people who are stuck in the cities with no way of escape on their own.
These contacts, some I personally know are then buying medicines, fresh food, and packaged foods, etc. in Poland and other neighboring countries and getting it shipped clandestinely throughout Ukraine fro a network of churches to distribute, and care for those who come to their church in their escaping to Poland, etc.
The men I know have sent their wives and children out from Ukraine and are risking their lives driving to deliver the supplies, then when they get them unloaded, they take on refugees for the return trip west near the borders they want to cross.

If you want to donate to an organization who you can know what percentage actually goes to help in this crisis, I've just pointed one excellent one out to you.
I have been going to local churches and making them aware of this excellent opportunity to be a help to the downtrodden, surviving refugees. I have a lot of photos sent to me from my friends there, including five pastors. I share to the congregations a short slideshow of some of the photos during their Sunday morning service, or meet with their Missions team.
Here are a few photos-

These are friends who are drivers, notice the bulletproof vests and helmets.
Their identity is being protected because of Putin's statements of possible public executions.











Hot meals provided to the traveling refugees.


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## Ruminator

These churches also provide a place for the traveling refugees to sleep for a night or two and stay at the church to regain their strength.
Here are a couple photos of makeshift sleeping accommodations and supplies brought in, and the refugees taken in this case from Kyiv to Lviv on the return trip.































Its painful to see some friends among those fleeing on these shuttlebuses.


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## Ruminator

I am offering this as a help to those who will be grateful for a means by which they can be helpful.
I am not soliciting, or trying to coerce anyone. I have carefully avoided that.
The photos I've shared are the easy ones to see, I hate sensationalized appeals. I make no appeal in any way.
But I know there are members here who will appreciate my sharing this aspect of what is going on in my life.

If you are so inclined to help out, go to summitmissions.org. 
Scroll down to: "Help the people of Ukraine". Click on the gold button underneath.


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## Dovans

Ruminator said:


> I am offering this as a help to those who will be grateful for a means by which they can be helpful.
> I am not soliciting, or trying to coerce anyone. I have carefully avoided that.
> The photos I've shared are the easy ones to see, I hate sensationalized appeals. I make no appeal in any way.
> But I know there are members here who will appreciate my sharing this aspect of what is going on in my life.
> 
> If you are so inclined to help out, go to summitmissions.org.
> Scroll down to: "Help the people of Ukraine". Click on the gold button underneath.


Done. thank You


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## bajuski

God bless you for working on such a good cause Ruminator, I contribute to the Ukranian Red Cross but checked out your church anyways and did the gold button.


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## AmericanEagle

Thanks for the info on Summit Missions. I have been looking for an effective way to help. God bless you Ruminator for the good work you are doing.


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## Ruminator

Your welcome guys, its my privilege.
I apologize for not being more clear about Summit Missions Int'l, they are not a church. I know them through my church Maranatha Bible Church. They were helpful in educating me before my going to Ukraine. There is no "free speech" there.
Summit Missions is comparable to the Red Cross, Samaritan's Purse, and other missions organizations. Summit having been in Eastern Europe for thirty years already had a network of people and pastors that allows them to quickly get help to the people at ground level.
For those interested in a more personal report from Ukraine I'll share this.
I just received this message and photos from my closest friend in Ukraine. He is a fisherman also and took me fishing the Dnieper River the last week I was there in 2018. Unfortunately I can't include his name or the pictures of him.

"Shalom My Dear Friend "JIM"!
Sorry for not writing for a long time, for three days in a row we travel around Ukraine, in three days we drove more than 3,000 kilometers. There is a lot of work, we sleep very little. The day before yesterday I was driving for 30 hours without sleep. *__* is going to Kyiv today. I thank God that keeps us and gives us the opportunity to bring food, clothes, medicines to people. I can't always take pictures of our work, it's very dangerous. But I took some photos. I love you my dear friend. Pray for us that God will give us strength and keep us."

Since this is on the world wide web I have to be careful.
My friend who wrote this is a Messianic Jew, a Rabbi, and a pastor.
I'm honored to have this man as a friend.


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## Bluewalleye

You're doing the Lord's work Ruminator. That is awesome. May God bless everyone who is helping in any way they can.


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## bajuski

Poor Putin, so distressed because Ukranians destroyed his oil facility inside Russia.


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## Lazy 8

Count me in as another one who believes the current administration is putting the cart before the horse. Didn't they learn anything from Obama and Solyndra? That one cost us taxpayers millions and what did we have to show for the loss $$$?


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## Buzzy

Lazy 8 said:


> Count me in as another one who believes the current administration is putting the cart before the horse. Didn't they learn anything from Obama and Solyndra? That one cost us taxpayers millions and what did we have to show for the loss $$$?


They give our money to anyone anybody as long as it doesn’t help us here in the US. All of’em


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## cement569

after they skim their share off the top, this is the pure proof of the dumbing down of the american people


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## Buzzy

cement569 said:


> after they skim their share off the top, this is the pure proof of the dumbing down of the american people


It’s been happening for so long it’s not even funny. Iran-contra, United fruit company, the creation of the *Mujahideen! *


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## cement569

headlines on yahoo today.....food prices soar due to the ukraine conflict. how stupid do they think americans really are? just another way to bleed us dry


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## Shad Rap

cement569 said:


> headlines on yahoo today.....food prices soar due to the ukraine conflict. how stupid do they think americans really are? just another way to bleed us dry


Look at the source.


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## cement569

no, just go to the store and see for yourself


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## Shad Rap

cement569 said:


> no, just go to the store and see for yourself


Go to the store and see for myself???..lol...you missed my point...all I was saying is Yahoo (the source) is a liberal site...that's why they're saying prices are high because of the war...


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## cement569

my bad, mistook your post. i was kind of fired up after going to the store last night and paying alot more for the same things i usually buy. and then stopped and got gas, and we wont go into that. P.S the pizza delivery guy ask me for a bigger tip, he said it was because of the ukraine conflick....lol


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## cement569

wasent wearing a tin hat when i was buyingt food or gas last night....its called real life deal with it


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## SConner

Not any plot to get you, just real world problems that impact all of us. Deal with it.


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## cement569

and it all happened in 14 short months, not to hard to figure that out...tin hat or not


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## SConner

Enquiring minds want to know, who is they?


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## Morrowtucky Mike

SConner said:


> What happened in 14 months and by who. You were wrong when you said your chances of dying of Covid where same as getting struck by lightening, you were wrong when after one game you declared CJ Stroud was not the answer at QB. You constantly use the term “they” with no explanation of who they are and no citation of source when citing “they”. I am left to wonder when you will say anything that is fact based, with source cited that turns out correct. If I did not know better, I would think you were a full on Q Nut. But that can’t be true, I am sure you have citations for the hundreds of “theys” you have referenced in the past 2 years.


The they he’s referring too in this post is against the OGF rules to say. Pretty sure everyone knows who “they” are that he’s referring too. And I totally agree with him on this one. My life was doing pretty good up till about 14 months ago and there was no Ukraine war the first 12 months of that time.


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## Dovans

OMG!


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## One guy and a boat

SConner said:


> What happened in 14 months and by who. You were wrong when you said your chances of dying of Covid where same as getting struck by lightening, you were wrong when after one game you declared CJ Stroud was not the answer at QB. You constantly use the term “they” with no explanation of who they are and no citation of source when citing “they”. I am left to wonder when you will say anything that is fact based, with source cited that turns out correct. If I did not know better, I would think you were a full on Q Nut. But that can’t be true, I am sure you have citations for the hundreds of “theys” you have referenced in the past 2 years.


You bored or what ? You rolled like like three different threads into this post. And since when does a thought/opinion need to backed up by source/citations. C'mon man this is merica after all. Maybe they are right.

Kip


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## One guy and a boat

SConner said:


> Yep bored and tired of people making ignorant claims with no basis in fact. Feel free to challenge me on anything I have said or asserted. I stick with facts unlike others over time who have relied on echo chambers. Feel free to research my record for non factual information I have published. If you find anything that was incorrect, I apologize. In the mean time, truth still matters to me.


🥱 

Kip


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## Moo Juice

Since this post deals with Ukraine, SC, you like to lean on the facts. Well, just what are the facts? It's hard to know what to believe what is the truth right now. Much of the earlier reporting has been proven to be wrong. Both sides played their hand early by stating there would be "false flags" being used. Ie. Propaganda. We really have no idea who's lying to make themselves look good. Ukraine wants to pull at our heartstrings for money and weapons. Russia wants us to believe that they are the good guys. Who's right? Fact is, we don't know. My heart goes out to the Ukrainian people. I think they are the victims here. I'm not sure I feel the same about their government. Or ours for that matter. There has been a lot of dirty dealings with the Ukraine over the years and unfortunately it looks like some in our current administration have been involved. Even our more liberal news sources are starting to admit some of these findings. I say follow the money if you want to know the truth. Problem is, we can only see what our leadership wants us to see. I believe as information comes out we all may be changing our opinions on this historic event as it unfolds. That goes for our leadership too, on both sides.


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## Safety1st

...I think a youtube link to the early 80's is needed, BADLY.

Styx ''Too Much Time on My Hands'' 

Back to tying leaders here...


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