# who said deer pops were down?



## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

reading the complaints in another thread about deer numbers being down because so many people reported not seeing many,check the dnr report for what i already knew  
and i don't even hunt anymore,LOL.
kinda hard to top last year's numbers by 13,000 if the herd was in such sad shape


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

What, the armchair biologists were wrong? Say it ain't so!  
I've got 30-60 deer in my field every night that remind me there are way too many deer.


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

M.Magis said:


> What, the armchair biologists were wrong? Say it ain't so!
> I've got 30-60 deer in my field every night that remind me there are way too many deer.


Maybe that should read 30-06 deer in the field!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> I've got 30-60 deer in my field every night that remind me there are way too many deer


well get the golf cart ready and you can park me out there for the late season hunt
my youngest son lives in a little burg here and has about a dozen in the field behind his house every evening.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

Shoot, I expected a higher number than that with the improved opening day weather and the SNOW. Snow during gun season usually means large numbers of dead deer. I know of one nice buck that would have never died had it not been for snow on the ground, and I'm sure there are many more stories like that floating around.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Private land has LOTS of deer. Public land has FEW deer. I have hunted public land in central Ohio for 16 years. I have never went out on opening day and not seen a single deer until this year. In 2005 I bow hunted a park on Saturday of gun season. I saw 13 deer that day and shot a mature 10 pt buck. This year, I saw 0 deer. The numbers are way down in many places of the state. Last year's weather was nasty particularly on opening day when it poured down rain all day. Of course the numbers are UP from last year. Ohio will set a record for harvest for this season's deer herd, but that does NOT mean there are more deer than ever. It means that hunters are allowed to kill more than ever! There is a HUGE difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The biologists in Pennsylvania all professed that they had to many deer as well. Anyone know what happened next?!?!?!?!?!?!?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

> The biologists in Pennsylvania all professed that they had to many deer as well. Anyone know what happened next?!?!?!?!?!?!?


Yes, they got someone with some brains in there to actually manage the deer herd to be healthy. Unfortunately, he was finally forced to leave because of bellyaching from hunters accustomed to seeing 100+ deer per day. There will always be a large percentage of unsuccessful hunters who refuse to accept blame for their empty tag..


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

M.Magis said:


> Yes, they got someone with some brains in there to actually manage the deer herd to be healthy. Unfortunately, he was finally forced to leave because of bellyaching from hunters accustomed to seeing 100+ deer per day. There will always be a large percentage of unsuccessful hunters who refuse to accept blame for their empty tag..


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't feel like I have quite the numbers around my place that I had 5-7 years ago but there are still plenty. Knox was #9 on the list and their gun totals are in the same ball park that they have been the past few years. up until about 4-5 years ago our numbers were maybe 15-20% higher. There are still plenty enough to go around.

Tuscarawas county must have had a huge baby boom last year. Their numbers went nuts. Harrison county did as well. You can never tell the whole story until the season is completed and the final totals are in but it was definitely a big season for many folks.

I am curious to see how much of an impact the donation programs are having. I know some counties now have the program in place to allow for totally donating without requiring the hunter to foot any of the bill. Knox county does not have this program yet


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I know even around my area there are extreme variations in deer populations even a few miles apart. As I mentioned the numbers in my place seem to be held in check however if you go over around Gambier which is only 7-8 miles from me and there are tons of deer. The same holds true just north of Mount Vernon. A lot of it depends on what damage permits control there is being done in each area. Near us there are around 400 permits used each year. North of town I know of hardly any.

As far as the public land issue I will say in my experience there which has been all bow hunting I have found that there is such a huge amount of land and it makes finding the deer extremely difficult. I agree that there are definitely fewer per square mile in most areas that I have been on but there have been deer there. I went to public land the second week of November and hunted for 4 days and saw a total of 3 deer. Add in the other three in the group and the number goes all the way up to 8. That is some tough hunting. But I know there are deer there. I didn't really know the area well enough and obviously didn't put myself where they were.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

not only are kill numbers up,but the total population is also up.the(est.) deer pops have been hovering in the 600,000-700,000 for several years.succass rates and population numbers are two totally different figures.as magis more or less said,success,or lack thereof might be more result of "luck" than the actual number of deer available.
i will say that pops in different areas will sometimes change from year to year,making it seem that numbers are down.but we are talking statewide numbers,not pops based on particular areas.in that case,i stick with my original statement.pops are NOT down statewide,and success is UP overall.
as brian pointed out,leading counties change from year to year with harvests,for various reasons.
now to the private/public argument,my guess is deer pops are good on private property due to the abundance of various crops,etc.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

If there were indeed an overharvest of deer it would be something that would be very difficult to duplicate year after year because the population would rapidly dwindle. I think we are in a pretty steady population holding pattern right now. Numbers staying within a 5-10% fluctuation annually have minimal impact long term. The extra 13,000 harvested this year over last year is only about a 4% increase.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

M.Magis said:


> Yes, they got someone with some brains in there to actually manage the deer herd to be healthy. Unfortunately, he was finally forced to leave because of bellyaching from hunters accustomed to seeing 100+ deer per day. There will always be a large percentage of unsuccessful hunters who refuse to accept blame for their empty tag..


There will always be a large percentage of hunters that live on their own farm and have no clue of what it is like for others in the state.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

> There will always be a large percentage of hunters that live on their own farm and have no clue of what it is like for others in the state.


Yes, you are right about that and I am fortunate. But I don't believe for a second that all 117,000 deer killed last week were killed on private land. You can't expect to see deer every time on public land simply because of pressure. Not to mention you talked about the Sat of gun season. By then they've learned what's going on.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

This year aint my first rodeo. On Saturday I was hunting a well known escape route(the whole reason it worked in 2005). Hunting pressure pushes the deer to that spot. I will admit with less hunting pressure there was likely less people moving the deer. However, there might be a reason there was less hunting pressure. Also, I browse many Ohio websites. Many hunters are talking about seeing less deer. Many hunters that have killed a deer, even a nice buck have mentioned seeing less deer. Therefore, this is not just some disgruntled, lousy deer hunter who points blame at others. It would seem that others, including succesful deer hunters that spend lots of time in the woods every fall have made the EXACT SAME observations as I have. 

Is the sky falling? No. However, I do believe the population numbers are down in MANY areas and I know plenty of other hunters(including successful ones) that feel the same way.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I can't argue that some areas have a more thinned population but I don't know how the DNR is supposed to handle that sort of contrasting population. The only way that they could accommodate that would be a varying bag limit by particular forests/preserves. Who knows? That day may come but it seems that for now their biggest task is to give adequate opportunities to curb the population as a whole.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

The numbers seemed higher in my part of the state ( Springboro;SW). I am used to not seeing many deer and usually see deer on less than half of my trips out. This year I saw deer on 75&#37; of my hunts. So I think statewide it balances out. Until I see two straight years where the harvest goes down, I am going to assume that the population is still increasing in the state.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

the numbers simply do not lie.
herd is up.
total harvest is up.
the only downside is bow hunting success for the early season was down by about 2000 from last year.that's only a 4&#37; drop.
gun and totals are up more than that,so the math seems to disagree with plenty of hunters who didn't score.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

misfit said:


> the numbers simply do not lie.
> herd is up.
> total harvest is up.
> the only downside is bow hunting success for the early season was down by about 2000 from last year.that's only a 4% drop.
> gun and totals are up more than that,so the math seems to disagree with plenty of hunters who didn't score.


Rest assured the saugeye numbers in Hoover are up to!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> Rest assured the saugeye numbers in Hoover are up to!


you must have gotten that fact the same place you got your facts on the deer numbers


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

misfit said:


> you must have gotten that fact the same place you got your facts on the deer numbers


Oh no, it's a fact. Just look at the stocking numbers from the ODNR. There are more saugeye in Hoover now then there ever have been in the history of the resevoir. The numbers don't lie.


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## wannabe (Dec 24, 2007)

Every year people cry about deer numbers and almost every year we set a harvest record.Why is that?Maybe the deer are out there but are out smarting you. I'm sure they notice the extra gunfire and people walking the woods.If your not seeing deer your in the wrong spot.I hunted with 3 other people on the same 80 acres, I saw 19 deer they saw 4 and I hunted less time than them.Could it be that some people are just better hunters or maybe it's just luck!!!!


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

I believe the DNR about as much as I believe that Nationwide wants to save me as much money as possible.Im sure you can add a few more 1,000's of kills not tagged last week(poached,wounded).If you look at the top 10 counties of numbered killed youll notice its changed alot over the last 10-15 years.The deer populations are getting much stronger across the state and not just southern ohio anymore.Some people are driving by better more populated places to hunt land that used to hold lots of deer.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> There are more saugeye in Hoover now then there ever have been in the history of the resevoir. The numbers don't lie


LOL.show me the numbers.
now you're really reaching


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## big_mike (Aug 2, 2006)

I am not sure about the deer herd in Southern Ohio other than last year the "Blue Tongue" had a major impact. Up North here, Bowhunting has becaome very popular. more and more guys are hunting. More and more unexperienced scent dragging guys are walking into the woods stinking up everyones hunting areas. I personally saw more Bucks this year than Does. I did shoot a Doe on Wednesday of Gun Season to do my part in Managing the herd. One thing an old guy once told me about managing a deer herd. Keep the does near you, and make them as few as you can, so the bucks will move more oftnen to look for more does. You can't pull a Buck from a hot Doe. No Hot doe means you can pull in the big buck. I think the herd is doing fine. Farmers are still complianing of losing crop to them so there must be some out there some where.


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## Big Joshy (Apr 26, 2004)

we had alot of wind during gun week. A LOT of wind. Especially tues, sat, and sun. The deer I saw were acting spooky even without being pushed or shot at. There are alot of deer on the property I hunt but on those windy days they were not moving at all. So just becasue your not seeing deer dosen't mean they aren't there. 
Also in my opinion as the number of hunters continues to go up, the number of bad hunters does too. Unexperienced hunters will struggle to see anything on windy cold days.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

ostbucks98 said:


> .Some people are driving by better more populated places to hunt land that used to hold lots of deer.


This could also be attributed to people hunting closer to home now that they know there are more deer there. 20 years ago you had to be in SE to see good numbers of deer. Now people realize that you don't have to leave home to find them!


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

I've been out A LOT this year and have only saw 5 deer the entire season. Last year I'de see 5+ a day.

Just because a spot is good one year doesn't mean it's going to be good the next year. Kind of wished I would of moved, ah well live and learn. The deer are still out there, just gotta find'em  

I'm just gonna gun hunt the extended weekend. If I don't get one I'm hunting over a corn feeder I already have set up! Might I add the deer are eatting me out of house and home


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

one small property that i hunted on last year (it was owned by a little old lady who would let you hunt IF you were nice enough to ask) was recently sold to her grandson who is totally anti-hunting and he immediately POSTED the whole property, all week i watched deer go over to her property and hide and i mean LOTS of deer. In my opinion THAT is the whole problem................. there is WAY TOO MUCH GROUND WHERE ACCESS TO HUNTERS IS DENIED and the deer are reproducing like rabbits on these areas and throwing the deer herd out of whack !!! I saw a herd of 30+ deer leave her woods and go into the fields and eat DURING gun season !!! they acted like it wasnt even hunting season because they were not being shot at or pursued by hunters. Until the ODNR figures out some way to get some of these people to allow a few hunters to hunt on their grounds their properties are going to be a virtual breeding ground for deer and the herd will continue growing rapidly in that area !!! 

i personally have never hunted on public hunting ground at any of the lakes or public area but i know i see alot of deer at salt fork state park and quite a few around tappan lake too !!! there seems to be plenty of deer in those areas , although hundreds of hunters hunt them HARD all week long during the gun season !!!


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

> Until the ODNR figures out some way to get some of these people to allow a few hunters to hunt on their grounds


Money is the only thing that will sway people.Either tax credit or a lease program where the DNR leases public hunting rights.But then again a few people would trash that for everyone else.Fights,overcrowding etc...


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## Fishstix (Aug 16, 2005)

A lot of good points here. I agree, when hunting season gets going and hunting pressure increases, the deer do find places where they aren't disturbed. They are smart, they know not to leave those areas. I for one, have seen less deer this year than I did the last couple of years. I know their are two farms in our area that fills numerous damage permits. That could be a reason. I am not discouraged by not seeing many deer. I have already filled two tags. But the numbers are up for a reason.


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## Seaturd (Apr 14, 2004)

I saw a grand total of three deer during gun week legal shooting hourss while hunting Tusc. County. The property i hunt is only 40 some acres and the adjoining properties were not being hunted much if at all. The deer were there, they were just not where I could legally hunt them. I could've filled a 55 gal drum with fresh deer droppings off the property I hunt. They appeared overnight along with fresh rubs all week long. I'm not discouraged one bit - i still have time.......


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## Cool Hunter (Dec 8, 2004)

I saw less deer than last year in my hunting spots. I'm not sure if the weather had affects on the hunting this year or not. It was hot and dry early. Didn't see many deer then. Saw good numbers around rut about a month ago with the colder weather. Didn't see many during gun season. The weather during gun wasn't exactly great for deer movement. Lots of wind. What I noticed was with the trail cameras in the areas we weren't see many deer. There were lots of deer on the cameras at night. 90% of the deer around the areas I hunt seemed to be moving at night. Lots of nice bucks, small bucks, and doe that were never seen while hunting during daylight hours. I'm wondering if the deer are moving more at night this year or if they are moving more at night because they are getting smarter. I'm hoping it was just the weather. Still think there are a ton of deer.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2008)

It's obvious many people are oblivious to what is really happening out there. 

It cracks me up when people see a large group of deer while driving down the road or behind their house and they automatically think Ohio is overpopulated with deer. Especially the ones who don't even hunt.

Are you trying to tell me that because there are 50 deer in a certain field, that it is like that everywhere else as well?? Get real.

I'm sure there is a reason they are all there. Most likely no hunting is allowed, or at least minimal. 

Now when i see 50 deer consistently on pubic land I may agree we are overpopulated. Until then I'm not buying it.

Almost everyone I have talked to this year has saw a significant decrease in deer. The only ones who are seeing more are hunting prime private land with very little pressure from hunters.

As far as the kill numbers being up, it was bound to be. Last year the weather was horrible for gun week. Combine this years good weather with the increased bag limits and thats what you get.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> It's obvious many people are oblivious to what is really happening out there.
> 
> It cracks me up when people see a large group of deer while driving down the road or behind their house and they automatically think Ohio is overpopulated with deer. Especially the ones who don't even hunt.


LOL.easy trap.as i posted ealier,the numbers don't lie. 
read my lips....................there are tons of deer(700,000 at last count) in this state,whether you've seen them or not


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

traphunter said:


> It's obvious many people are oblivious to what is really happening out there.
> 
> It cracks me up when people see a large group of deer while driving down the road or behind their house and they automatically think Ohio is overpopulated with deer. Especially the ones who don't even hunt.
> 
> ...


I think this statement holds a lot of truth.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2008)

misfit said:


> LOL.easy trap.as i posted ealier,the numbers don't lie.
> read my lips....................there are tons of deer(700,000 at last count) in this state,whether you've seen them or not


Yeah I'm sorry for coming off strong. I honestly was not pointing anyone out. 

As far as 700,000 deer go, that is a VERY rough estimate. There is no way to tell for sure, but I think the DNR runs their numbers high.


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

After reading through these posts I can see why alot of people on here cannot get permission to hunt private land! Attitude means everything!!!

"As far as 700,000 deer go, that is a VERY rough estimate. There is no way to tell for sure, but I think the DNR runs their numbers high."


Heck ya they just throw those numbers out there, hell they just count 50 uin one field and assume every field has 50, Right? Has nothing scientific about it.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2008)

> Heck ya they just throw those numbers out there, hell they just count 50 uin one field and assume every field has 50, Right? Has nothing scientific about it.


If you say so. Hopefully you are brighter then that though. Wasn't you the one that mentioned "attitude"?


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

There are about 15 deer to every 640 acre tract here in Ohio as a generalization. 31&#37; of Ohio is forested alone. This doesn't include clearcuts, fallow fields, or corn fields.

Just some numbers to think about. Not implying anything.


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## sporty (Apr 6, 2004)

Here's some places to get some info regarding harvests, populations, how they are counted, etc.

I'm not going to list each link but here's 2 - 

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hun...BuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx

And this Yahoo search has some links - 
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-tyc7&p=ohio&#37;20deer herd population&type=

These are real numbers, not just gut feeling of individuals.


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

I am brighter than the sunshine! At least thats what Momma always said!


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Every year we get this debate about the deer numbers and every year there are huge numbers of deer killed. Nobody is going to listen to any "the sky is falling" arguments until the numbers start going down. Two years ago they killed a record number of deer and last year was only less than 2% lower so apparently they had not hurt the numbers much at that point. This year is looking to maybe be higher than the record number two years ago. If the populations are decreasing I would like to know how. And these numbers are at least 25% (comparing to some years much higher) higher than the current numbers. So I don't think you will get hardly anyone to buy in to the argument for the total numbers going down. I won't argue that the numbers on some public areas are considerably lower but I still wonder just how much lower. An interesting analysis of this would be to take a county in one of these so-called bad areas and compare their annual numbers through the last few years. Maybe there will be a trend there. I don't know. If someone wanted to use that as support for lobbying for separate public land restrictions then go for it. I just doubt that you will get any open ears until they manage to curb the increase overall. Once they get the numbers under control who knows? They may listen.


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## Fishstix (Aug 16, 2005)

I would have to agree...numbers don't lie.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

I reiterate my original statement. 


> There will always be a large percentage of unsuccessful hunters who refuse to accept blame for their empty tag.


Some folks couldn't get themselves in range of Rudolph with a Santa suit on.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

M.Magis said:


> I reiterate my original statement.
> 
> Some folks couldn't get themselves in range of Rudolph with a Santa suit on.


Ouch!!!

Hey wait a minute!! I didn't get one last week. Maybe I should have worn a Santa suit. Rudolph would have been better than the ones I passed on.


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## River Anglin (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm curiously wondering if the majority of us seeing less deer are living and hunting in zone A. There is a reason why less tags are permitted in that zone. And, of course, I wonder if those seeing increased populations are in zone C. That would leave zone B with a mixed bag of good and bad numbers.


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## big_mike (Aug 2, 2006)

I have to agree with the numbers. There are many reasons that the DNR wants a certian amount of deer harvested every year. They need the population to be a certian ratio as to not attract certian disease, car accidents, imbreeding. It is important to keep the herd healthy. I tend to think the numbers are going to fall because they are issuing less tags, yes, less tags. There a re a lot less hunters today than 10 years ago, and the trend looks to go down even more. That is one reason the state allows anytype of Muzzleloader and crossbows. They want every child that even has a hint of interest to have a chance to bag a deer. The scary part is the number of young hunters has drastically fallen in the past 5 years. This is our future guys, if we want to keep hunting we need to get these kids in the field and train them the right way to hunt, so we can enjoy this sport for a long time. Don't let the Tree huggers get them off on the wrong foot. Anyway, like I said, less area to hunt, and less hunters is the biggest reason for the shortfall. Although Bow kills have been up but there are more bow hunters now than there used to be.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2008)

I dont think anyone is saying that the sky is falling here.

I have consistently killed both deer and turkey on public land for the past 5 years. Just this year I passed on multiple small bucks and missed two big ones, all on public land. I ended up killing a doe.

So if you think i am whining because I havent killed a deer, then you are wrong.

Just a concerned hunter who is worried about a whole lot more then just killing a deer.

And once again M.Magis, I invite you to come hunt with me so I can show you "the other side" of the pasture.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

Here you can see VERY detailed information that the state puts out every year regarding the deer harvest. This includes everything from a county breakdown of nuisance permits, to county breakdowns of reported deer-vehicle accidents. Also gives some data regarding antler growth, adult deer ratio, number of fawns per doe, etc. It also shows the number of deer killed by each weapon.

As you can see there have been more permits sold and more deer killed almost every year and I can only expect this to increase.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hun...BuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

You are probably right on the number of hunters going down. I don't have the historical data in front of me on that one. But the number of permits sold have actually been increasing every year. Obviously more guys are getting a larger number of permits. But I think until the number of permits start decreasing they should continue to have an increase in harvest up until the point that they begin thinning the herd some. If the young hunters are not replacing the older ones at a fast enough rate then yes we may reach a point where we can't get the job done without more drastic means. I find that less of a concern at this point though. We are really quite fortunate to have the number of deer that we do. I think we have a great situation right now.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

bkr43050 said:


> I think we have a great situation right now.


It is certainly better now than it has ever been in the past. I don't think we have reached the summit yet either.


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

misfit said:


> LOL.easy trap.as i posted ealier,the numbers don't lie.
> read my lips....................there are tons of deer(700,000 at last count) in this state,whether you've seen them or not


WHO "counts" the 700,000 deer that you say there are Misfit ?? and one other question i have is WHERE do they "count" most of these deer ?? id say it is a very rough estimate at best that they do and they base their numbers on what they see in certain areas (and im guessing these are areas where the herd is extremely large.......ie.......private ground and rural areas where there are alot of deer/car accidents reported) and it is not gonna be the same everywhere. im not saying there isnt alot of deer here in Ohio BUT for someone who hunts public ground at a lake or state park they may NOT see nearly as many deer as guys do who hunt on private ground that is saved for a few select hunters.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

traphunter said:


> And once again M.Magis, I invite you to come hunt with me so I can show you "the other side" of the pasture.


Once again? I must have missed the first invite.  I'm afraid I have to politely decline for now, as I have a 7 week old son who demands a lot of attention, as does his mom. 
I know very well I get to see more deer than almost anyone here because of where I live, and I always keep that in mind. But, it's pretty simple. If the deer weren't out there, people wouldn't be killing them. Success rates stay consistent, and harvest numbers go up. Doesn't that tell us something?


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

traphunter said:


> And once again M.Magis, I invite you to come hunt with me so I can show you "the other side" of the pasture.



Yeah not everyone has their own personal deer farm to hunt on !!! Some of us have to HUNT For a deer !!


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

You must not HUNT very good then  There are tons of deer all over eastern ohio from Erie all the way to marietta. 

If you always do what you have always done, you will always have what you have always had!

Find a new area to hunt or hunt better!


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## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

I think the deer check stations should ask whether the deer was killed on private land or public land.
I would think this would provide some good data for the ODNR.
I am very, very thankful to have my own land to hunt.
I busted my butt to make it happen!


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

I know of one large farm in the Tappan Lake region where the guy owns 1100 acres and allows NOONE to hunt on his ground. he kills a few deer each year on nuisance permits but other then that the deer population grows every year that goes by. He will not allow anyone to hunt anymore and hasnt in 15 yrs or more because when he did allow hunting.........he found slug holes in his barn and in the side of his garage and had guys drive through his lawn around his house to drag deer out and they tore up his grass...... so he just doesnt allow ANYONE to hunt now. I can drive out to his place on any given night and see herds of 15-20 deer in ALL of the fields on his property and i mean some real monster bucks too. I drove out there one evening during gun season and saw over 40 deer in ONE field feeding.......but as i said before until the DNR comes up with some way of "opening up" some of these private properties to hunters the deer herd will continue growing at a rapid pace in these areas. im sure a few of the deer from this farm are wandering off onto the Tappan Public hunting grounds and getting killed but i also know that the deer from the public ground go on his place and hide all week too. im not sure there really is any solution to this but it is definitely a HUGE problem with the herd size continuing to grow !!!


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

Papascott said:


> You must not HUNT very good then


IF you were referring to me........i do just fine thank you.........i filled 2 tags during the gun season and could have filled the other 2 that i had but chose not to shoot young bucks and another doe............i saw deer every day of the season............and will tag out both of my remaining tags easily during 2nd gun or muzzleloader season.............im just saying as a whole it isnt as easy for some people as it is for others..........some people HAVE TO hunt public ground and do NOT have access to private honey holes !!!


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree that more information on public versus private land would be interesting to have. Perhaps they could add that to the standard questions at the check station? Of course they would have to look at a way to insert it in to the call-in system as well. In fact that may be the appropriate to add that question.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> WHO "counts" the 700,000 deer that you say there are Misfit ?? and one other question i have is WHERE do they "count" most of these deer ??


if you don't know who does the counting,and where they count,i suggest you do a little less tying and a little more reading 
i think the dnr does a fairly decent job of tracking numbers throughout the state.or maybe they just go out to magis' farm and count the deer in his fields
you guys bitch and whine about not seeing as many deer as you'd like,and then admit what i and others have already said.the deer are not spread equally throughout the state.some areas support higher numbers than others.therefore if you hunt in an area(public or private)that has a low ensity of deer,it stands to reason you're not going to see as many deer as you would on magis' farm.
so again...........................there are huge numbers of deer in the state.
most people here seem to agree with that(except those who refuse to believe the facts)

no......................every acre of land in ohio does not hold the same number of deer.
nobody here has claimed anything different.


ps to traphunter................no aplogy necessary.i didn't take anything personal.i was just reiterating the fact that the deer pops are much higher than some people want to believe based on what they actually see in some areas.


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

i know that the ODNR does the supposed counts ...........but i highly doubt that anyone actually counts 700,000 deer ......LOL...........it is a ESTIMATE based on what they see in a few areas that they do the research in .............it isnt the same throughout the state as we all know !!! 

i was simply stating a fact..........PRIVATE MANAGED GROUND has alot more deer on it then the PUBLIC OPEN HUNTING AREAS !!!!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> i know that the ODNR does the supposed counts


are you saying you doubt that they even do any study of the count? 


> id say it is a very rough estimate at best that they do and they base their numbers on what they see in certain areas (and im guessing these are areas where the herd is extremely large.......ie.......private ground and rural areas where there are alot of deer/car accidents reported)


there is part of what you said.i seriously doubt it's that simple,LOL.yes,we all agree that the numbers are estimates.we all know they can't count every individual deer
but they definitely don't just set up in a few high density areas and base the numbers on that,as you seem to claim by your statement.give them credit for being a little more scientific in their studies than that.
in the end,i'm going to trust their methods and expertise much more than yours or any other of the umpteen amateur deer biologists out there


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## jason454ci (Dec 27, 2005)

Ok let me get this right. I can't shoot the small bucks, I can't shoot the big bucks, and now I can't even shoot a doe because deer are almost extinct on public land. Heck I hunt private land and haven't even fired a shot yet so this must mean that the population is terribly low this year. Just maybe if everyone would complain to the state enough they might start backing trucks up to public hunting areas and dumping deer out like the do with pheasant and trout. Wouldn't that just be great. So answer this one oh wise ones, if the population is supposedly down so much why is the kill rate up and why is the state allowing more deer to be harvested this year then ever before? Sure doesn't seem like a good herd management choice if the population is down. As for me I guess I will just let the state lie to me about how many deer are in the state and just go on about my hunting. Thanks for bringing up the numbers Misfit even though some can not accept them.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2008)

> Ok let me get this right. I can't shoot the small bucks, I can't shoot the big bucks, and now I can't even shoot a doe because deer are almost extinct on public land.


Not sure where you got this at?



> Heck I hunt private land


SO where do you have room to even provide your input about public then? If you have not hunted it then how do you know what it is like? You must be the wise one.


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## Fishstix (Aug 16, 2005)

Thanks for posting the website containing all the deer numbers. That is a lot of good information. I always wondered how many kill permits were issued in the counties I hunt.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

Fishstix said:


> Thanks for posting the website containing all the deer numbers. That is a lot of good information. I always wondered how many kill permits were issued in the counties I hunt.


 Your welcome. If people would take the time to read that through, most of their questions would be answered. 

I personally took interest in the fact that Youth hunters take more antlered deer than antlerless. Definitely a good way to get the young hunters hooked and makes me glad that the regular gun season is not during the tail-end of the rut like the youth season is.


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## jason454ci (Dec 27, 2005)

traphunter said:


> SO where do you have room to even provide your input about public then? If you have not hunted it then how do you know what it is like? You must be the wise one.


Well thats an easy one to answer there, I read all the post before mine in this thread. Seems like most that hunt public land summed it up pretty good for me. If they say the population is down then it must be true and the state must be wrong.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Ok, I just used the link posted by Bassnpro(thanks - good stuff) and found some interesting data. I looked at 2002 harvest to 2007 harvest for the county that I hunt. The bag limit per man went from 2 to 3 in 2004. Then, they added the bonus weekend in 2006. So, all the deer were wiped out and 2007 sucked right. Not exactly. The harvest rate through all these reg changes has remained relatively stable.

2002 - 1858
2003 - 2056
2004 - 1697
2005 - 1909
2006 - 1793
2007 - 2109

I will expect a slight decline this year which would correlate with my field observations, but with a higher bag limit and cheap tags the harvest should be WAY up. Right. Wrong, it remains relatively stable. At some point when there is a downward spike the increased bag/opportunity is negated by a lack of chance encounter to fill that tag. So, this year my county may drop to a guesstimate of about 1650. Still plenty of deer around to produce a harvest in 2009 in the range of 1900-2000 deer.

So, given this data. I acknowledge that the population throughout the state is not significantly less. However, in some areas the public land opportunities are becoming considerably less. 

I'll be driving east this summer and I'll have my hiking boots on.


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## sporty (Apr 6, 2004)

Bassnpro1 said:


> Here you can see VERY detailed information that the state puts out every year regarding the deer harvest. This includes everything from a county breakdown of nuisance permits, to county breakdowns of reported deer-vehicle accidents. Also gives some data regarding antler growth, adult deer ratio, number of fawns per doe, etc. It also shows the number of deer killed by each weapon.
> 
> As you can see there have been more permits sold and more deer killed almost every year and I can only expect this to increase.
> 
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hun...BuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx


 
I posted this link earlier - doesn't seem like some of these folks are interested in reading the facts and how they come up with the numbers. They just keep posting armchair stats.


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

Couldn't down load but I'm guessing there is a lot more this year than last. At least there was at the places that I hunted. If any one cares A lot more.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Fishstix said:


> Thanks for posting the website containing all the deer numbers. That is a lot of good information. I always wondered how many kill permits were issued in the counties I hunt.


Yeah, take a look at Knox county. We are the winners in that area. We have roughly 10&#37; of the whole state's allotment.

I believe if you contact your local GW you can even obtain the information on which farms have the permits. I know a friend did that last year. If it was not the GW then it may have been the regional wildlife office.


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## big_mike (Aug 2, 2006)

I was able to get a list from the ODNR office in Findlay.


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

I've always noticed that city folk read alot and seem to go to the top counties (from last year) to hunt the following year.
It was like that around here 15 years ago. A whole lot of out of county tags were seen every where and I was wittness to some of thier methods. No one got permission they just found a place to park and went into the woods.

We still have plenty of deer around here but the out of towners have moved on. A few have made friends and stayed and are welcomed back every year.

Here in Jefferson County I've noticed a big increase in hunting leases not all but alot of them Amish. I don't blame the property owners it's a money thing and every one around me doesn't like it but also don't want to pay for a lease either. The land owners get money to pay thier taxes plus a little extra.

My regional boss in Cleveland has leased land for quite a few years down this way and last year him and his friends bought an old farm in Harrison Co.

I hate to see it come to this but it may be the future of deer hunting here in Ohio.


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

i couldnt get the link to download either ...........i am sure it if full of great info............as i said im not looking for an arguement just speaking my mind...........people on private ground are gonna see alot more deer then on public ground especially if the private ground manages their herd in a useful way...........the numbers are up statewide in general...........YES ..........but in some areas they are definitely down too !!!


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

I know that Wayne National Athens area had more deer than I had seen in 15 years. But you ask the guys 2 campers down they would probably tell you a different story. Do you get my point?


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I really think the deer population on public land has a lot more to do with the hunters that use the public land than the deer carrying capacity, or suitable habitat of the land itself.

Deer really haven't learned how to read yet, they don't know how to read a plat map and know if they are on private or public lands.

The hunters however on some public lands that blowup everything they see and run around the woods aimlessly may be the reason for less deer hunting success on some public lands. Put those same hunters on a a select piece of private property and the land and they would suffer that same plight as they do now on some of the public lands.

If you don't like hunting public lands do something about it, you are the only one that can find land to hunt on, no one is going to come to you, you must do the work or, you can just repeat the same complaints year after year after year.

A memorable and appropriate comment made here by a member this week

"Some folks couldn't get themselves in range of rudolpf with a santa suit on"


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Gee, a lot of smug comments laced throughout this thread. It could possibly be that in the past when we were hunting public land and seeing plenty of deer and harvesting nice deer including bucks, that maybe just maybe we didn't have these complaints. I didnt. My public land hunting has been great prior to this year. In fact, I have 4 racks on the wall. The 3 best came from HEAVILY hunted public land. It is in central Ohio so it is close and easy access for the masses. It gets hammered EVERY year and not just this year. I will make adjustments for next fall. 

Some of the best deer hunters in the country have rough patches.


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

I'v hunted 5 county's this year Hamilton Clermont Adams Athens and Hocking half private and half public I've seen deer on every trip. During gun on public land, one day we seen 32 deer half the day I sat and the other we drove deer. I don't know about the rest of the state but I've seen more deer this year than I've seen In a long time. I went out and scouted a spot today since the leaves are done falling its easy to see paths or shall I say roadways it was unbelievable and yet I here on this sight that the # are thought to be down. I'm not being the devils advickit but the truth is the truth. 

I do believe that some areas of the state have more and some less.

Lundy I always like your post


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> I really think the deer population on public land has a lot more to do with the hunters that use the public land than the deer carrying capacity, or suitable habitat of the land itself


i'm sure hunters have an effect also.rather than type out every possible factor,i just used the words "etc" and "various" to cover all bases to save my typing finger  
but the same can hold true on private property also.remember,everyone doesn't have access to large tracts where the deer aren't hunted heavily.there is probably a lot of private land that still gets a good bit of pressure.also,on large public areas,a lot of hunters tend to not venture too far from the beaten path,where they may see more deer.
i admit i haven't hunted for several years,and hunter numbers are up,as well as there being less available private land.but deer numbers are way up too.
like the old line from the movie goes....................build it and they will come.with crops like corn,beans,alfalfa,and yes etc,along with good cover and mast crops,private land will attract lots of deer.


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Gotta love winter here @ OGF!

As for me...... saw 30 deer in the 3 days I was out. No bucks, all doe. Is the deer population up where we hunt? Absolutely, but out of the 20 or so hunters who hunt our land and the combining land, only a couple take doe. We need to do a better job of management, ie: lowering the doe population. I would imagine by doing this it would help out a great deal. But I can say with all certainty our area of Hocking County the deer population seems to be up a great deal.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm not trying to offend or belittle anyone.

However if you are not having the results you seek change tactics, location or both. Public ground is just that, public, you have no control, no power, and no more rights than anyone else. It you elect to hunt public lands it must be with the understanding that it is a shared resource and not always shared equally and you get what you get.

The deer population as a whole has been increasing statewide. If you don't see that increase on some public lands it has nothing to do with deer viability it has everything to do with resource utilization. The very fact that these lands are public means you can not change the utilization so except it or change your hunting areas.

The difficult part for me to fully understand is how I read the same doom and gloom about hunting deer on some public lands from the same people year after year. How can you anyone complain about the same result every year if they change nothing from year to year.

There are very good public hunting lands in Ohio, they may not be withing 10 min drive, but they exist, the WNF being one for sure


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

One thing that I had noticed a few years back was that the over all size of deer seems to be smaller (not in height but in weight).

About fifteen years ago (on private land) I took a doe late in the week and when I tagged it in I weighed it on a scale they had out front of the place.
It weighed 107 lbs. and lots of ribbing and jokes were coming my way for taking such a small deer.(I was looking for a buck earlier but wanted meat)

Two years ago (on the same farm) I took a doe that was one of the larger ones takin that year and it weighed 115 lbs. When I mentioned it to the others not much was said but the farmer remembered (like myself) about the little deer that I had takin some years back.

I'm not sure if this is same all over Ohio or just around here but I've read where over population can cause such things to happen. When there are more deer not just a few get less to eat but all get less to eat and you end up with lighter deer over all.


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

Interesting thread.

I consider deer hunting and musky fishing as having a number of parallels.

Both are extremely elusive and both seem to have years when my personal results vary, sometimes widely, from that of my friends. 

Those parallels aside, the whitetail is surely one of the planet's most elusive creatures. I consider anecdotal evidence in the way of what other say about the numbers they're seeing, but only to a degree.

For any given year, I also try to take into account the fact that there will naturally be highs and lows in deer movement, just as there will be years when fishing in general is better than other years.

The only thing I do know for a fact is that these are the good old days. Right now everyone has an excellent chance of killing a deer for table fare.

When I was in my teens, just seeing a whitetail anywhere at anytime was a truly rare occurrence for all Ohioans. Today it is easier to see a whitetail on any given day in the field than it is to see a cottontail rabbit and deer are by far and away more plentiful than pheasants used to be.

Weather plays a big part in the equation in my opinion, especially during gun season. When the weather is lousy, it seems many hunters either don't show up, or quit earlier. Seems to me that that should have an effect one way or another.

From my observation, I think many, if not most hunters want to approach hunting the same way they approach fishing....they want it to be easy and sometimes it just is not. They hunt the same areas year after year, often going to the same spots that were productive in the past. That may seem logical and it may be productive at times, but it isn't consistently reliable when dealing with whitetails...or muskies...or bass...or walleyes, and on and on. Few want to travel very far and when they get there, they don't want to have to walk very far to get to what they hope is a productive area. You get the idea. 

Competition in the areas near higher human density is also a factor. I've seen distinct differences between deer behaviors when comparing hunts in lightly populated counties to lower populated counties. In the lower populated counties that I hunt the deer move earlier in the afternoon, later in the morning. I get skunked far more frequently (as far as even seeing one deer) in the higher populated counties. Of course, that is my anecdotal evidence, but it is consistently true in my experience, year after year.

There are always a few guys who kills more deer than others, year after year after year. There are also a few who kills trophy class bucks with amazing consistency. I tend to lend an ear to those guys more than the guys who consistently complain about numbers and the DNR tag allowances...while they go about hunting the same "spots" and using the same tactics year after year after year.


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

Mainly as a result of this thread, I have decided to try some public land for this Saturday of the extended gun season. I have never deer hunted public ground and I want to see what it is all about. I am planning on trying the WNF. After Saturday it is back to the private ground that I have access too. Although I am fully expecting the public ground to be better than the private ground that I hunt. If not successful this weekend, I will try to spend the muzzleloader season on public as well to see if I can succeed or if it is indeed doom and gloom as some have reported.

I am excited for my little adventure and looking forward to the results. My hopes aren't high for Saturday as I have nothing scouted out, but I should be able to formulate a plan for the muzzleloader season.


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## ThunderHawk7 (May 3, 2004)

Bassnpro1 said:


> Mainly as a result of this thread, I have decided to try some public land for this Saturday of the extended gun season. I have never deer hunted public ground and I want to see what it is all about. I am planning on trying the WNF. After Saturday it is back to the private ground that I have access too. Although I am fully expecting the public ground to be better than the private ground that I hunt. If not successful this weekend, I will try to spend the muzzleloader season on public as well to see if I can succeed or if it is indeed doom and gloom as some have reported.
> 
> I am excited for my little adventure and looking forward to the results. My hopes aren't high for Saturday as I have nothing scouted out, but I should be able to formulate a plan for the muzzleloader season.



If I can give you some advice.....Find a Topo map of the area and lay it right next to the Wildlife area map. Look for Natural Funnels and Saddles near the edges of cover or Powerlines if available...Points between ridges work as well. Look for these areas the farthest from the road. You may know this already but I just thought I would share in case you or somebody else reading this thread didn't think of it...It beats going in completely blind...Anyway, Best of Luck to you!!!!!

Hawk


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