# America Today



## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

I had a chat with a buddy the other day and wondered what y'all think about this subject.

We were talking about Americas ability to stand together and demand change. We talked about in our lifetimes (both under 45) we have never seen this country stand together and fight for much. 9/11 being the closest we can remember.

Do americans have the ability to stand up, be counted, and fight for what we believe in anymore or has our siciety fallen so victim to privledge and lazyness that we can be led astray by the few counting on us to give up and lose interest after a few weeks?

(This has nothing to do with anyones anti or pro thoughts on anything specific, more so just wondering if we needed a to push a. Social movement for change, could we still do it?)

Mr. A

(2013)
Bass: 0
catfish: 0
bluegill: 0
Other: 0


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Mr. A said:


> has our siciety fallen so victim to privledge and lazyness that we can be led astray by the few counting on us to give up and lose interest after a few weeks?


That's exactly what the Japanese thought in 1941. Hitler felt the same about the British.

I'm no pollyanna, but I'm getting really sick of all of the doom and gloom and pessimism about this country. Geezuz, folks, have some faith! If anything is going to undo us, it's this freaking negative attitude and fear mongering from the fringe....I'm not saying you're on the fringe, but that's where the pessimism comes from...I fall prey to it too.

Maybe FDR wasn't totally right. Just like in 1932, we may have more to fear than "fear itself," but I'm more afraid of fear and pessimism than anything else.


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## VitalShot (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't think the people would stand up as a whole for anything. This is very sad but it is what it is. People have a belief that this is America a free country and that can't happen to us. 


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## Hook N Book (Apr 7, 2004)

So what change is it we're not standing up for and most of all, not standing together?
That's kind of a general statement that can have different meanings since we either share or have different ideologies to some extent.


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## Bonecrusher (Aug 7, 2010)

If people die then yes America will stand together. 

If it is for something that doesn't cause a loss of life No America cannot stand together. 

Unfortunately the "entitled" don't care to lift a finger unless someone is trying kill them.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

sitting here watching John Stoccel, about California cities going broke....and a lot of the citizen are volunteering and doing things the cities are no longer doing(can't afford) ....seems to me.... get the guberment out of the way and the real patriot citizen's will get the job done  ....

I remember that the flag meant something and the pledge of allegiance too....the only real ones I see sticking together are the military that have volunteered to give and keep the freedoms that we all enjoy....if I was younger I would be there....I did volunteer years ago and went in the service
maybe some of the unions stick together, but that is only for self preservation....NOT for the common good..... as I see it anymore....and they protect people that should loose there jobs for various reasons  but don't...

people of faith will stick together too....so many went to the east coast to help with clean up, and also to the gulf coast states....all because they felt the need....my daughter for 1....for weekends on end volunteering to help the less fortunate elderly people in need


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## RedJada (Jun 21, 2009)

VitalShot said:


> I don't think the people would stand up as a whole for anything. This is very sad but it is what it is. People have a belief that this is America a free country and that can't happen to us.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


 I disagree 100% with this statement. It is a free country and that's because the America does stand up. Never underestimate....


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

Maybe after the drones start flying...


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mr. A said:


> I had a chat with a buddy the other day and wondered what y'all think about this subject.
> 
> We were talking about Americas ability to stand together and demand change. We talked about in our lifetimes (both under 45) we have never seen this country stand together and fight for much. 9/11 being the closest we can remember.
> 
> ...



You see it every day. Theres no doubt about it. Thats whats great about our country.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

streamstalker said:


> That's exactly what the Japanese thought in 1941. Hitler felt the same about the British.
> 
> I'm no pollyanna, but I'm getting really sick of all of the doom and gloom and pessimism about this country. Geezuz, folks, have some faith! If anything is going to undo us, it's this freaking negative attitude and fear mongering from the fringe....I'm not saying you're on the fringe, but that's where the pessimism comes from...I fall prey to it too.
> 
> Maybe FDR wasn't totally right. Just like in 1932, we may have more to fear than "fear itself," but I'm more afraid of fear and pessimism than anything else.


Nice post. Agree 100%.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Hook N Book said:


> So what change is it we're not standing up for and most of all, not standing together?
> That's kind of a general statement that can have different meanings since we either share or have different ideologies to some extent.


You are 100% correct in that I was vague. I also never said that we were or were not standing up for any change. I wanted to see if other thought we could, or couldn't, stand up together as a nation, and let them give their own situations and reasons why they felt that way. Had I not made the question the way it was I may have swayed the conversation which was not my intent.

Mr. A

(2013)
Bass: 0
catfish: 0
bluegill: 0
Other: 0


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## Pigsticker (Oct 18, 2006)

ironman172 said:


> sitting here watching John Stoccel, about California cities going broke....and a lot of the citizen are volunteering and doing things the cities are no longer doing(can't afford) ....seems to me.... get the guberment out of the way and the real patriot citizen's will get the job done  ....
> 
> I remember that the flag meant something and the pledge of allegiance too....the only real ones I see sticking together are the military that have volunteered to give and keep the freedoms that we all enjoy....if I was younger I would be there....I did volunteer years ago and went in the service
> maybe some of the unions stick together, but that is only for self preservation....NOT for the common good..... as I see it anymore....and they protect people that should loose there jobs for various reasons  but don't...
> ...



I saw a program on PBS that stated that election clearly stated that the "established, white, conservative, Christian norm" is now a permanent minority. Imho this has turned a large percentage of Americans into eternal pessimist. That norm was all America has ever known and now that we've reached the turning point people are scared. People are always scared of change and/or the unknown so its natural. 

Im not trying to ruffle any feathers by saying that that norm was right or wrong Im just stating what was said by a credible news source. The aforementioned group always felt that everyone except fringe groups thought just like they did for the most part. Now upon realizing that actually their way of thinking is in the minority they feel disenfranchised and therefore are no longer believers in Americas ability to still be great in the future.

Imo that's why we don't seem as united as we once were. America is more diverse in all categories now than ever before and imo that's where our true strength lies. Im optimistic about Americas future. Imo it'll continue to lead the world but in a different way than in the past. 

Ironman "some" people of faith stick together and "some" people who have zero faith stick together and do good too. My mother and sister volunteer at the homeless shelter almost every Sunday and holiday and i do once a month besides driving the Salvation Army van to shuttle homeless guys and inner city kids to ponds the Salvation Army owns during the summer to fish and my family isn't religious at all. We do it because its the right thing to do.


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## ranger373v (Oct 26, 2012)

America couldn't stand up together for free dirt, somewhere somehow someone would be missing out


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## E_Lin (Jun 30, 2011)

Not a chance.

Politicians run this country, and they decide how the majority of people will vote, because they are able to manipulate their words and how they are interpreted by the people. And the media outlets that follow the same beliefs of those politicians (liberal and conservative) put out all the propaganda the people are willing to swallow. Because we are divided as a people across party and societal lines, we are not able to come together completely as Americans, which is how the politicians want to keep it. As long as we keep fighting each other's beliefs and party affiliations (red herrings) we are distracted from coming together to tackle the real problems.

This is what we get as a country for electing politicians instead of leaders.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Our Great Country was based, born, and thrived, on religious values, morals, and the ability to determine the difference between right and wrong. The American Spirit was founded on hard work, tight knit families where generations of values and morals were taught and handed down.
IMHO, The United States of America has been weakened because we have strayed away from our guiding principals!
I don't think our Country could ever "gut" another World War and we certainly don't have unifying political leadership to lead us anyway! How do we allow ourselves to be put 16+++ Trillion in debt and think that is good!
I'd better stop!
GOOD FISHING TO ALL!


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Which religion? *trick question heh.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Which religion? *trick question heh.


Most of the Founding Fathers were Episcopalian/Angelican!

All 56 signers of the Declaration of Indepence, the 48 for the Articles of Confederation, and the 55 signers of The Constitution, plus the 95 Senators and Representatives of the first Federal Congress, all claimed a religion!

Even those you listed as diests, believed in a God, but felt he had more to do than play a part in everyone's daily life. They believed Religion should not play a part in Government like the Church of England. And they also believed that God did not grant Kings the power to rule over people.

You can bend History how ever you want but Our Country has suffered because of the lack of morals and values that first founded this Nation and it's society!


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## ranger373v (Oct 26, 2012)

morals tick me off... i wish our politicians could control their own morals and not push that crap on me... it effects me in so many ways...


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Pigsticker said:


> I saw a program on PBS that stated that election clearly stated that the "established, white, conservative, Christian norm" is now a permanent minority. Imho this has turned a large percentage of Americans into eternal pessimist. That norm was all America has ever known and now that we've reached the turning point people are scared. People are always scared of change and/or the unknown so its natural.
> 
> Im not trying to ruffle any feathers by saying that that norm was right or wrong Im just stating what was said by a credible news source. The aforementioned group always felt that everyone except fringe groups thought just like they did for the most part. Now upon realizing that actually their way of thinking is in the minority they feel disenfranchised and therefore are no longer believers in Americas ability to still be great in the future.
> 
> ...


Did the show touch on the economic impacts of the shift? I think that has people most worried. The lifeblood of our economy was your standard american family. A weakening GDP and increasing culture of dependency means the likelyhood of us leading the world in anything is unlikely, even in "different ways". There's my pessimistic side!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

ranger373v said:


> morals tick me off... i wish our politicians could control their own morals and not push that crap on me... it effects me in so many ways...


Most of their issues are because they have no morals!


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Intimidator said:


> Most of the Founding Fathers were Episcopalian/Angelican!


Anglican?
Jefferson, who wrote much of the Declaration of Independence was Deist and so were other founding fathers like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine. Don't forget the whole reason America came to be was to escape the religious persecution of the Church of England..


a few thoughts on religion from some of our founding fathers.:

http://zenhell.com/GetEnlightened/FoundingFathers/

*Thomas Jefferson*
"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." 
..........To W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state. 
..........Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

*John Adams*

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" 
..........To F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" 
..........To Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." 
..........To John Taylor

*Abraham Lincoln*

"The bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

Benjamin Franklin 

"The nearest I can make it out, 'Love your enemies' means, 'Hate your Friends'."

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. 
-- Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity."

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." 
..........Letter to his father, 1738

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." 
.........."Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." 
..........Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

*James Madison*

"Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance" 
..........James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" 
..........James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." 
.........."A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." 
..........."A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment'" 
..........James Madison, 1811, Writings, 8:133

*Thomas Paine *

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."


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## oldstinkyguy (Mar 28, 2010)

Weve become a nation of sheep. Distracted by dancing with honey boo boo
and the NFL while every day we slip further and further into being babysat from cradle to grave by our goverment. Everything we say online and on the phone is recorded. Even our electric meters talk to our "smart" apliances and the electric company can cut off the "wrong" apliances during peak use. Every move is on camera and the highway patrolman that pulls you over for "not signaling a lane change" can download everything on your phone while he "warns" you without even telling you. Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office
without showing probable cause. They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is a significant purpose of their intrusion. They may also
monitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recording every e-mail address and website you have been in contact with. Law Enforcement may now demand any personal records held by any source including your doctor, employer, accountant, or library. All they have to do is claim that it is related to an investigation into
terrorism. The record keepers may not reveal that your records were provided to the government. Americans can now be jailed without a formal charge & without the right to confront the witnesses or
evidence against them. All the while every decent job is being shipped overseas as fast big corporations can do it with the goverments help. 
If the founding fathers were alive today they would be leading armies thru the streets, they had more freedom under British rule than we have under our own. They didn't agree on many things and argued strongly on things like federal verses states rights but they came togethor for the greater good. Today both sides divide, divide, and demonize. If we dont come togethor soon and take things back from the corrupt politicians (on both sides) I'm afraid that "America home of the free and the brave" will become just another empty slogan.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Intimidator said:


> Most of their issues are because they have no morals!


They are aware of morals. The don't have the conviction to live by them. Just human, all men are sinners right? You can't really say those guys don't know right from wrong. That doesn't take much to figure out that part. It's living the way you claim to believe that's the hard part. Easier to do when your belief system basically says its ok because everyone else is doing it and you will be forgiven.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Most of the Founding Fathers were Episcopalian/Angelican!

All 56 signers of the Declaration of Indepence, the 48 for the Articles of Confederation, and the 55 signers of The Constitution, plus the 95 Senators and Representatives of the first Federal Congress, all claimed a religion!

Even those you listed as diests, believed in a God, but felt he had more to do than play a part in everyone's daily life. They believed Religion should not play a part in Government like the Church of England. And they also believed that God did not grant Kings the power to rule over people.

You can bend History how ever you want but Our Country has suffered because of the lack of morals and values that first founded this Nation and it's society!


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> They are aware of morals. The don't have the conviction to live by them. Just human, all men are sinners right? You can't really say those guys don't know right from wrong. That doesn't take much to figure out that part. It's living the way you claim to believe that's the hard part. Easier to do when your belief system basically says its ok because everyone else is doing it and you will be forgiven.


Agreed! How we continue to vote these idiots into office just boggles my mind.
I disagree that "moral" people are outnumbered, The "Giant" just hasn't been truely awakened yet!


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

intimidator said:


> you can bend history how ever you want but our country has suffered because of the lack of morals and values that first founded this nation and it's society!


+1 ....


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

> Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office without showing &#8220;probable cause.


Solution: Be boring.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Intimidator said:


> Most of the Founding Fathers were Episcopalian/Angelican!
> 
> All 56 signers of the Declaration of Indepence, the 48 for the Articles of Confederation, and the 55 signers of The Constitution, plus the 95 Senators and Representatives of the first Federal Congress, all claimed a religion!
> 
> ...


Dude, theres not even such thing as Angelican!? You mean Anglican which is of the Church of England. While they believed in a God, they believed in Natural Order. Natural Law. They weren't looking to Jesus Christ for answers. They believed fully and completely against establishing a national religion and took great pains to prevent it from ever happening. Moral does not mean religious. Religious does not mean moral. We don't need a religion to talk about whats right and wrong. The concept of right and wrong was discussed way before we were talking about Jesus Christ and his disciples. Were basically talking brand names here. Its all about love thy neighbor and do onto others(golden rule). You don't need to read that from a book to know its the right thing to do. This is what the founding fathers were talking about. 

I think much of the problem with america is pressure to succeed. Pressure to be successful. I think its a problem with humility more than anything personally. Its like we don't know how to live within our means anymore. We don't know how to accept our situation for what it is. We have to make it more than that. Sometimes at a very high cost. The Rat Race.. Is it worth it? It is for me I guess. I'm having a pretty good time here in the good ole USA!


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Intimidator said:


> Agreed! How we continue to vote these idiots into office just boggles my mind.
> I disagree that "moral" people are outnumbered, The "Giant" just hasn't been truely awakened yet!


If you believed in the Bible, thats all men. All men are fallen. If I believed in the bible, I'd believe God put them there. God is omnipotent. All things happen for a reason. Its all part of the plan. Not to say we can't disagree with it, but if I were of that thinking, we don't have much choice in the matter. I don't think "moral people" are outnumbered at all. I think those operating under no guidelines at all are far and few between. I don't think people care or believe in consequence or believe they'll be absolved from the sin somehow. If you think that is Religions role in society, to keep the people in line, I'd blame the watering down of that religion then. All of the amendments and re-interpretations over the years to more suit the people and the time. We've molded it into what we want it to be, not necessarily what God intended when he passed it down. Back to basics. Fundamentalism. Old testament type stuff


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> If you believed in the Bible, thats all men. All men are fallen. If I believed in the bible, I'd believe God put them there. God is omnipotent. All things happen for a reason. Its all part of the plan. Not to say we can't disagree with it, but if I were of that thinking, we don't have much choice in the matter. I don't think "moral people" are outnumbered at all. I think those operating under no guidelines at all are far and few between. I don't think people care or believe in consequence or believe they'll be absolved from the sin somehow. If you think that is Religions role in society, to keep the people in line, I'd blame the watering down of that religion then. All of the amendments and re-interpretations over the years to more suit the people and the time. We've molded it into what we want it to be, not necessarily what God intended when he passed it down. Back to basics. Fundamentalism. Old testament type stuff


I'm on my son's iPod and can't get to all the stuff I need quickly and can't type a lot fast. Basically we agree, morals are basically knowing the difference between right and wrong and are later based as religious beliefs. The founding Fathers all had a religious belief from varied religions or beliefs but they were moral men and tried to do the right things for the people and this Country, many of them made great sacrifices to make sure this Country succeeded and a Republic grew!
A lot of our society doesn't raise kids anymore, they raise and are taught by themselves, morals,etc are no longer taught, our leaders are greedy idiots, everyone has to "get mine". We can't communicate, we can't help others without a reason, we can't pray in schools. All the things that made this Country strong came from the society that made up this Country.
Now the minority that controls decisions has reversed the course of our society and our Country is in disorder!
We need to get our "swag" back and our morals, values, and our belief in religious principals!
This is my humble opinion !


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

i feel that we have been divided and conquered,,, as we all have our own (and way too many) agendas, whether it be pro gun ,pro life . pro union.liberal ,democrat. and the list goes on. thats why we can't focus on whats important for the country.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Intimidator said:


> All the things that made this Country strong came from the society that made up this Country.
> This is my humble opinion !


 what...like back in the 50's and 60's? you want us to go back to a way of life that included racism,sexism,wars,slavery, drugs..morals my butt! A lot of ideals and morals have been changed since then..and definitely for the better! I do believe that there are things on television nowa days that were considered"unacceptable" to be on television many years ago..but thats tv.

How far back you wanna go to find "good morals"?...JFK?..hes probably the most promiscuous president weve ever had... even farther?Thomas jefferson? the man had SEX with his SLAVES and they bore his children... you cannot make a statement on our countries morals based on what is seen on television..the "get mine" attitude has been around for a looong time..im only using the t.v example because people see shows like "leave it to beaver' and label those years as the "good" ol days of honesty and morals...not true at all


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

freyedknot said:


> i feel that we have been divided and conquered,,, as we all have our own (and way too many) agendas, whether it be pro gun ,pro life . pro union.liberal ,democrat. and the list goes on. thats why we can't focus on whats important for the country.


I agree, but I don't think we've been conquered. Our government is built to disagree with itself. I'm sure many a dictator has laughed at our debates and elections ... where are they now ... anyway, the Guy With the Big Hat can simply decree something, or enact something without being responsible for telling the population about it.

I see two important things: First, the nation is better off with a public that participates, like voting and giving public input to governments, etc. Second, we need a public that is well-informed. It's easy to surf your favorite viewpoint sources and sit and agree with everything you read. I say it's better to look at sources you don't agree with once in a while, at least to better understand the viewpoints of your opponents.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

freyedknot said:


> i feel that we have been divided and conquered,,, as we all have our own (and way too many) agendas, whether it be pro gun ,pro life . pro union.liberal ,democrat. and the list goes on. thats why we can't focus on whats important for the country.


*thats why we can't agree on what's important. There are plenty of focused folks out there. Maybe too many lol.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

FOSR said:


> I agree, but I don't think we've been conquered. Our government is built to disagree with itself. I'm sure many a dictator has laughed at our debates and elections ... where are they now ... anyway, the Guy With the Big Hat can simply decree something, or enact something without being responsible for telling the population about it.
> 
> I see two important things: First, the nation is better off with a public that participates, like voting and giving public input to governments, etc. Second, we need a public that is well-informed. It's easy to surf your favorite viewpoint sources and sit and agree with everything you read. I say it's better to look at sources you don't agree with once in a while, at least to better understand the viewpoints of your opponents.


Nice post. I agree.


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## E_Lin (Jun 30, 2011)

The "good old days" were never as good as anyone remembers them. Trying to live in the past helps no one. We need to take care of our future, while never forgetting the mistakes of our past.


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## E_Lin (Jun 30, 2011)

FOSR said:


> I say it's better to look at sources you don't agree with once in a while, at least to better understand the viewpoints of your opponents.


I agree with this 100%.
Often when you know more about what other people believe, you find out more about what you believe as well.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

My Motto: Don't be so sure...


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

streamstalker said:


> My Motto: Don't be so sure...


A good one. I also like "there is very little black and white. mostly shades of gray".


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

I consider myself very fortunate to live my life in the USA and still love my country, but..... "The land of the Free and the home of the Brave"? What exactly is the meaning "land of the free" in today's America? Probably communist China has less laws and regulations for its people than we do and we're definitely not united. I was a lot more free in the past than I am today!


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Chrominator said:


> I consider myself very fortunate to live my life in the USA and still love my country, but..... "The land of the Free and the home of the Brave"? What exactly is the meaning "land of the free" in today's America? Probably communist China has less laws and regulations for its people than we do and we're definitely not united. I was a lot more free in the past than I am today!


"Free" is relative. We are not as "free" as we were in the "free love" 60s etc sure. While I have to be "free" to live my life the way I see fit, I also have to be as "free" from you and what you decide is necessary in your pursuit of happiness as possible. There's definitely a balance needed there.

Should you be free to drive your car 80mph down my quiet street?

It just takes some common sense rules and regulations that the majority of people agree upon. You'll find yourselves in the majority on some issues and not so much on other issue.

If you really think those in communist China are more free than we are then... You are severely misinformed.


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> "Free" is relative. We are not as "free" as we were in the "free love" 60s etc sure. While I have to be "free" to live my life the way I see fit, I also have to be as "free" from you and what you decide is necessary in your pursuit of happiness as possible. There's definitely a balance needed there.
> Why is it that we're not as free as in the 60's?
> 
> Should you be free to drive your car 80mph down my quiet street?
> ...


I believe I said.... communist China probably has less laws and regulations than we do.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Chrominator said:


> I believe I said.... communist China probably has less laws and regulations than we do.


Please explain the difference in the point that makes please. Either way you are either trolling or not being intellectually honest. I guess I just have more respect for our country and those who HAVE FOUGHT AND LOST THEIR LIVES FOR THIS FREEDOM WE CURRENTLY ENJOY to say something so ridiculous. I tried being nice about it. Have a good day!


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Please explain the difference in the point that makes please. Either way you are either trolling or not being intellectually honest. I guess I just have more respect for our country and those who HAVE FOUGHT AND LOST THEIR LIVES FOR THIS FREEDOM WE CURRENTLY ENJOY to say something so ridiculous. I tried being nice about it. Have a good day!


Well I'll tell you what, it's just a gut feeling, but you do the research and I'll bet you $100US that we have more federal laws and regulations alone than China has in total. If I'm wrong then you win. 

Don't try to put a guilt-trip on me my friend. I love my country just as much as you, if not more. All I'm trying to say is that IMO we have way too many laws and regulations on the books and growing by the day. And I'm only speaking of federal laws and regulations, there's plenty of state and local to add to the total. For a free society there is too much control of our daily lives. But that's OK the water is just lukewarm right now.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Fishlandr75 said:


> what...like back in the 50's and 60's? you want us to go back to a way of life that included racism,sexism,wars,slavery, drugs..morals my butt! A lot of ideals and morals have been changed since then..and definitely for the better! I do believe that there are things on television nowa days that were considered"unacceptable" to be on television many years ago..but thats tv.
> 
> How far back you wanna go to find "good morals"?...JFK?..hes probably the most promiscuous president weve ever had... even farther?Thomas jefferson? the man had SEX with his SLAVES and they bore his children... you cannot make a statement on our countries morals based on what is seen on television..the "get mine" attitude has been around for a looong time..im only using the t.v example because people see shows like "leave it to beaver' and label those years as the "good" ol days of honesty and morals...not true at all[/QUOTE
> 
> I'm saying, that the people of the Country made this Country great, we were always the guiding force!


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

Take up saugeye fishing and maple syrup making, gives you something to do to relieve the paranoia that sets in during Winter when the days are short and darkness is long.
THINK SPRING, it's right around the corner.... my crocuses, hyacinths and daffodils are sprouting.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> A good one. I also like "there is very little black and white. mostly shades of gray".


My wife likes fifty shades of gray more......


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Chrominator said:


> Don't try to put a guilt-trip on me my friend. I love my country just as much as you...All I'm trying to say is that IMO we have way too many laws and regulations on the books and growing by the day.


Well said.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Snakecharmer said:


> My wife likes fifty shades of gray more......


Oh dear....


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I'm sorry but I can't even begin to comprehend the comparisons to China.
Google HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION and the second freaking link is to wikipedias article on Human Rights Violations in CHINA. We really aren't having this discussion are we? I get it. You(and plenty others) think ever growing regulation is impeding on your pursuit of happiness. What regulations specifically and how can we change it? I'd like them to change the fishing regs so I can at least use 3 poles! 2 seems so limiting. <-- fun stuff. I also think the Patriot Act needs revisited and the Dept of Homeland Sec. and TSA probably need completely re-imagined. There are some serious abuses going on in our own airports and it needs addressed.


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> *I'm sorry but I can't even begin to comprehend the comparisons to China.*
> Google HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION and the second freaking link is to wikipedias article on Human Rights Violations in CHINA. We really aren't having this discussion are we? I get it. You(and plenty others) think ever growing regulation is impeding on your pursuit of happiness. What regulations specifically and how can we change it? I'd like them to change the fishing regs so I can at least use 3 poles! 2 seems so limiting. <-- fun stuff. I also think the Patriot Act needs revisited and the TSA completely re-imagined. There are some serious abuses going on there.


The only thing that I compared were numbers, nothing else.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Please explain the difference in the point that makes please. Either way you are either trolling or not being intellectually honest. I guess I just have more respect for our country and those who HAVE FOUGHT AND LOST THEIR LIVES FOR THIS FREEDOM WE CURRENTLY ENJOY to say something so ridiculous. I tried being nice about it. Have a good day!


It just seems your comment here says that if someone doesn't agree with you then they aren't intelligent or they don't appreciate what we have living in the USA much less lack any respect for our service members who fought for our freedom. What makes your opinion so special?


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I'm sorry but I can't even begin to comprehend the comparisons to China.
> Google HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION and the second freaking link is to wikipedias article on Human Rights Violations in CHINA.
> 
> 
> i can add to that by telling you people in china arent even ALLOWED to use google..hows THAT for not having rights...massillon youre right, we are definitely a country with more civil rights and liberties than china


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

Fishlandr75 said:


> i can add to that by telling you people in china arent even ALLOWED to use google..hows THAT for not having rights...massillon youre right, we are definitely a country with more civil rights and liberties than china


LOL... you guys are killing me.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Chrominator said:


> LOL... you guys are killing me.


lol.. yes,this is getting fun..but really..google it..about using "google" and "youtube" in china..its true


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## dock dabber (Mar 20, 2005)

RedJada said:


> I disagree 100% with this statement. It is a free country and that's because the America does stand up. Never underestimate....


 I agree with Rejada the people would never stick together no would they stand up and fight together. This country has been going down hill ever since the Kent State shooting and the Vietnaum war. That war did more damage in america then it did over there. We have been destroyed from within and there is no turning back. Neither political party can turn this mess around and nor do they want to. As the greatest nation, were a thing of the past.


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## willy (Apr 27, 2007)

Oh, I will get this political thread locked 8) 

"morals are basically knowing the difference between right and wrong and are later based as religious beliefs.

Huh? did you read that before you hit enter?

Morels are out of season, just ask them.

"The founding Fathers all had a religious belief from varied religions or beliefs but they were moral men and tried to do the right things for the people and this Country, many of them made great sacrifices to make sure this Country succeeded"

The founding Fathers were tired of the "Crown" taxing, or in reality, taking their wealth. They decided that now since they are on another continent, hey screw the Crown, we can take it for ourselves.

"tried to do the right things for the people and this Country"

The right thing for what peoples, of who's country?
Oh, do you mean these peoples and their country?

America the beautiful...

Algonquin Anasazi Chinook Choctaw
Chumash Comanche Cree Creek
Delaware Lenape Mohawk Mojave
Osage Seneca Shoshone Ute
Cheyenne Pueblo 

I am open to listen to every ones opinion, but the fact is most of history is biased depending on whom is telling it.


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## willy (Apr 27, 2007)

Chrominator said:


> LOL... you guys are killing me.


The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution outlaws slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime.

Maybe would should amended that to google rights?


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

I'd rather we were talking about morels than morals.


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## t.stuller (Feb 25, 2010)

This country began its path down hill the first time they borrowed $100 million off J.P. Morgan. The even bigger slope down hill was the creation of the federal reserve (the second time they borrowed money). I ask everyone to please look this up. The fed nor the IRS are government owned. They our private businesses.They are ran by the Rothschilds , Morgans, Rockefellers and a few other elites. This world has became a global economy controlled by elite bankers. The Rothchilds own part of the fed, all the banks in Europe, Bank of America (no wonder the fed bailed them out), and more then u could ever imagine. At last known they controlled over 70% of the world's wealth. Due to changed last names they can no longer tell how much they control but its estimated to be over 80% now. Our founding fathers were against private banks more anything. Think about. They collect our tax money, charge our government interest to borrow it, lend it to their banks, then charge more interest to us. America shut down a central bank in America twice before and surely need it done a third time! Thomas Jefferson's last words were, "I killed the bank!" We can argue politics all day, but the truth is, they are just puppets. Please google this stuff!


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

VitalShot said:


> I don't think the people would stand up as *a whole for anything*. * People have a belief that this is America a free country* and that can't happen to us.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


Why would we as a whole stand up for anything? We are too diverse in more ways than race and ethnicity to come to an agreement on anything. It's not that people don't care, they do care, but they don't share the same opinion.

America IS a free country, we are allowed to have our own feelings and sentiments, we just can't have everything the way we want it.


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## t.stuller (Feb 25, 2010)

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/03/who-does-the-us-owe-money-to/
Another thing we need to stand up for!


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

Chrominator said:


> I believe I said.... communist China probably has less laws and regulations than we do.


I'd agree, however, the laws they have are much more restrictive than ours. Think they have a concealed carry law? I doubt it. Miranda Act? Probably not.

I'll take regulations. Regulations kept thalidomide  out of thsi country. Regulations got DDT out America, but it is still sold world wide. I used to work in the meat grinder of manufacturing and construction. As flawed as they may be, I'll take the EPA and OSHA over nothing at all. Those agencies are an arm of Congress and were created under the Nixon administration.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

crappiedude said:


> It just seems your comment here says that if someone doesn't agree with you then they aren't intelligent or they don't appreciate what we have living in the USA much less lack any respect for our service members who fought for our freedom. What makes your opinion so special?


It's not opinion it's fact . We are ultimately more free in the US theres no question. has nothing to do with intelligence. everyone knows it. Has more to do with being honest with ourselves. we cant have meaningful debate if folks just want to make outlandish claims like that. I'm not going to entertain the idea that America sucks and we are more repressed than china.


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> It's not opinion it's fact . Go argue America sucks and we are more repressed than china somewhere else.


Dude....... Why can't you get it through your brain that I only compared the number of laws and regulations. Nothing else...*PERIOD*. I wish you'd drop it already because it's getting old. We all know the difference between the US and China.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Chrominator said:


> Dude....... Why can't you get it through your brain that I only compared the number of laws and regulations. Nothing else...*PERIOD*. I wish you'd drop it already because it's getting old. We all know the difference between the US and China.


So what's your point then? Say some silly things that aren't even true then turn around and say they don't even mean anything??


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## Chrominator (Oct 11, 2007)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> So what's your point then? Say some silly things that aren't even true then turn around and say they don't even mean anything??


My point is that IMO we're being micro managed with the overwhelming number of laws and regulations. Do we need them? Yes we do. Do we have too many of them? IMO, we do. Get it? Has not one freacking thing to do with human rights in China.


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

Bonecrusher said:


> If people die then yes America will stand together.


Nope. Nuts have been shooting up schools for years and we can't even focus of the issue of mental health. We can talk about guns, but the GOP doesn't even try to deflect the discussion away from guns and to the people who misuse them.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Chrominator said:


> My point is that IMO we're being micro managed with the overwhelming number of laws and regulations.


I have to agree with this part of your post. I too feel that we are mico-managed by the amount of laws and regulations today........

Mr. A

(2013)
Bass: 0
catfish: 0
bluegill: 0
Other: 0


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

Could we unite for a common cause such as we saw during say, WWII? Yes, in the wake of the right series of events. I have no doubt about that and I still firmly believe that this is, hands down the best place in the world to live and work.

But...if you want to discuss pessimism/optimism...

If you can look at the national debt and not feel pessimistic about the future of this country, you lack a rudimentary understanding of economics.

Our children and grand-children will toil for decades to pay for the rubber checks we have written and continue to write. The day of economic reckoning is coming like a runaway train in the distance. Maybe you can't see it or hear it, but it is coming, it is out of control, and it is going to run over us all.

There is a price to pay for foolishness and greed and it will be rendered. Despite current popular political rhetoric, nothing is free. Not ever.


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

Intimidator said:


> 1. Our Great Country was based, born, and thrived, on religious values, morals, and the ability to determine the difference between right and wrong.
> 
> 2. The American Spirit was founded on hard work, tight knit families where generations of values and morals were taught and handed down.
> 
> ...


I can't agree with your first three points. Our nation was based on many values, not a single unifying one. You will never get a good beer drinking, dancing catholic to agree with a conservative baptist. You'll never get a liberal Presbyterian to agree with someone in the Nazarene church.

Morals and values? Who gets to set those? I don't set yours and you don't set mine. That's what freedom really is. Self determination.

The idea that there were guiding principals is a myth. The only common guiding principal people had 200 years ago was finding shelter and food first, then carving their life out where ever they lived, by what ever method they chose. In Ohio if that meant murdering unarmed peaceful Delaware indians, that was ok too. Google the Gnadenhutten Massacre. If it meant persecuting the Mormons, that was fine too.

But I do have to agree with point #4. It's probably the best sentiment we'll find on this thread.


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## JignPig Guide (Aug 3, 2007)

Mr. A said:


> Do americans have the ability to stand up, be counted, and fight for what we believe in anymore or has our siciety fallen so victim to privledge and lazyness that we can be led astray by the few counting on us to give up and lose interest after a few weeks?


I am fifty years old. And I have participated in several struggles that me and other Ohioan's believe in. Sometimes we won. Sometimes we lost.

- Marched against NAFTA... lost
- Marched against radical changes to Ohio's Workers Compensation... won
- Stood apposed to last years Issue 2... won
- Stood in several picket lines with workers... won and lost

If you're looking to stand up. All you gotta do is get up. Whether you fight for one side or the other. Laziness is not a trait only held by the privileged rich such as your post suggested. Get up. Get out. And you'll find out how it feels to share the privilege to be American.


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

Chrominator said:


> My point is that IMO we're being micro managed with the overwhelming number of laws and regulations. Do we need them? Yes we do. Do we have too many of them? IMO, we do.


Can you give us specific examples of laws and regulations that fall under too many? Just askin'.

To a point I have to agree with your statement. In this country, we want our laws to be specific and not vague. I have family in Germany and they talk about being guided by a philosphy of 'do the right thing'. So they have fewer, broader laws with foggy borders. 

What the heck is the right thing? Who determines that?


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

> If you're looking to stand up. All you gotta do is get up. Whether you fight for one side or the other. Laziness is not a trait only held by the privileged rich such as your post suggested. Get up. Get out. And you'll find out how it feels to share the privilege to be American.


Yeah, what I was saying earlier. Get off your rear, or stop complaining.

I see reports from places in the world where people brave the threat of death to go vote, and they get high turnouts, but here we're lucky to get something like 40% turnout. It sets a poor example.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

JignPig Guide said:


> I am fifty years old. And I have participated in several struggles that me and other Ohioan's believe in. Sometimes we won. Sometimes we lost.
> 
> - Marched against NAFTA... lost
> - Marched against radical changes to Ohio's Workers Compensation... won
> ...


This is exactly right. That's whats beautiful about this country. You can stand up for what you believe in. Literally. Without being run over by tanks or shot by law enforcement(as long as you are demonstrating peacefully).


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## buckzye11 (Jul 16, 2009)

Television. You are what you eat.
Have you ever seen a horse walk a zig-zag while his blinders were on? Nope, he walks a straight line, where ever his driver wants him to go.
No, we will not come together for change. It's not in "our" best interest.


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## FOSR (Apr 16, 2008)

> Television. You are what you eat.


Yep, that says it.


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## Northern Reb (Jan 3, 2012)

I for one certainly do not feel as patriotic as I once did and it pains me to admit that.

I feel this way, in large part, because the harder I work the more money they take from me. 

When I receive a bonus at work for exceptional work or going above and beyond they take even more away. Penalizing someone for working harder...how does this make any sense at all?!?! We redistribute money from earners to the takers. 

So yes, I feel disenfranchised. Yes, I'm tired of going to school, learning more and working harder for others. If this country continues to reward those who want gov't handouts then I believe more and more will feel the way I do.


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## The Tator Tot (Feb 16, 2012)

Each individual is given the great responsibility of FREE WILL. What you DO with your free will greatly impacts not only immediate family, friends and those around us, but over time impacts the society in which we belong.
Free will gives us the choice to follow God or not follow God...or even claim to not believe in God. When "man" decides free will means getting to do whatever you want...well history shows us what happens. Empire after empire has fallen because they placed their will above all else. Generation after generation in this country has slowly chipped away at common sense when involving free will. Thus, generation after generation has brought us increased chaos in all aspects of life.

Today's society teaches children that it's the norm to raise a family without marriage or a mom and dad together raising the family.

Today's society teaches children that violence is the answer.

Today's society teaches children that you can do whatever you want and face no consequences...God forbid if you make ANY attempt to correct the behavior of ANY child...after all, hurt feelings are much more important than proper behavior.

Today's society is now reaping what the past has sewn.

Today's out of control children are tomorrow's leaders.

Unless a Spiritual foundation is laid for us to follow, then mans free will trumps all...and that leads to disaster 100% of the time.

Today's society pushes that taking away guns stops killing...after all, we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings by correcting their behavior before it get's to the idea of killing someone.

When free will is top dog with no guidelines to proper behavior, as we're experiencing now...well, the fall is right around the corner.

I choose to follow God. You don't have to. But whatever or whoever you choose to follow, if there is no common sense, chaos inevitably grows to a raging force. And chaos at it's peak brings destruction without fail.

Our leaders have been chosen. Now we must follow THEIR plan and idea's.

If change is to be made...spirituality must be restored or what we see happening now will always be the norm.

Our country is in the most pathetic state it has ever been in and it only took a couple hundred years and more to do it.

John.


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## JignPig Guide (Aug 3, 2007)

Northern Reb said:


> I for one certainly do not feel as patriotic as I once did and it pains me to admit that.
> 
> I feel this way, in large part, because the harder I work the more money they take from me.
> 
> When I receive a bonus at work for exceptional work or going above and beyond they take even more away.


Subject: You feel less patriotic because they are taking more taxes.

You might feel more patriotic if you look at it this way.
_____________________________________________

Percentage of taxes they have been taking.

Taxes Year/ Bottom Percentage/ Top Percentage
1950 20 / 91
1960 20 / 91
1970 14 / 72
1980 14 / 69
1990 15 / 28
2000 15 / 40
2010 10 / 35

But who really wants to run the numbers and really know? Some say government is bad. And we don't need to pay for: firefighters, school teachers, police officers, bridges and highways, war, the cost of our veterans, homeland security, the three branches of our government, disaster relief, agriculture support, OSHA, unemployment insurance, worker compensation insurance, education, pollution controls, social security, Medicare and Medicaid, a prison system, or Wall Street and banking oversight. Because we all know these things can just magically appear.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

JignPig Guide said:


> Subject: You feel less patriotic because they are taking more taxes.
> 
> You might feel more patriotic if you look at it this way.
> _____________________________________________
> ...


We've gotta go fishing sometime.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

Mr. A said:


> We were talking about Americas ability to stand together and demand change. We talked about in our lifetimes (both under 45) we have never seen this country stand together and fight for much. 9/11 being the closest we can remember.
> 
> Do americans have the ability to stand up, be counted, and fight for what we believe in anymore or has our siciety fallen so victim to privledge and lazyness that we can be led astray by the few counting on us to give up and lose interest after a few weeks?


The system is setup to divide the people. As time marches forward, the divide becomes larger.

A legitimate question is this: How do Americans "fight for what we believe in" when there are two polarized sides that are intentionally played against each other? Each side relies on the government to fund them: corporate welfare recipients and entitlement welfare recipients. Both sides want the government subsidies to continue for them but not for the other guys.

Until regular people realize that the system is designed against them, and that it is the system that needs scrapped, there will be no uniting and there will be no "fight for what we believe in." Instead it will just be infighting against each other while the aristocratic bankocracy pilfers and plunders our savings.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

JignPig Guide said:


> Subject: You feel less patriotic because they are taking more taxes.
> 
> You might feel more patriotic if you look at it this way.
> _____________________________________________
> ...


Hmmm. I didn't know that a minimization of "legalized" theft should make me feel more patriotic. As the function of the federal government is literally to protect personal liberty, field an army, provide fair trials, and run a post office, I fail to see how much of your list should even be considered as "patriotic" to pay for with my stolen funds. 

Patriotism has been hijacked and is almost viewed nationalistically rather than what real patriots like those of the revolutionary war were.

I like this definition of patriotic much better anyway.
Patriot: a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government. 

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson


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## Northern Reb (Jan 3, 2012)

JignPig Guide said:


> Subject: You feel less patriotic because they are taking more taxes.
> 
> You might feel more patriotic if you look at it this way.
> _____________________________________________
> ...


I understand there are services which will be provided by the gov't and *some* taxes are a necessary evil. My issue is our society encourages people and trains them to beat the system. In the community I live in the abuse is rampant. My line of work also affords me the opportunity to see firsthand many social services, from your list, taken advantage of on a daily basis. 

It is America's mindset in general that has me less patriotic. I was raised to believe that if you work hard you won't be penalized for it...that you would be rewarded....The American Dream. But instead, we raise tax rates on those who outwork and outperform . What kind of message does that send to our youth? 

IMO we are raising to many apathetic individuals who expect things to be given to them...why would they fight for anything else?


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## jboss (Mar 31, 2008)

The reason there is such a divide in this country and why it would be damn near impossible to bring everyone together is the very things that half of us stand for and cherish Personal Responsibility Family God and Country Are the very things that the other half loathe


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

i love my country, i love my flag and everyday i see that in the eyes of my veteran brothers... 

screw those entiled crybabies... they honestly make me sick..


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## moosejohn (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes EZBITE its a wonderful country and I love it also and its because of our great veterans that have defended our country and constitution that we have the right to talk about our thoughts without retribution from our government . Thats part of what being free is all about . THANK YOU TO ALL OF OUR VETS AND MILITARY !


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## Ronnie Mund (Jan 22, 2013)

When anyone starts talking Merika this is the only thing I can think of:


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## ranger373v (Oct 26, 2012)

'Merica! I use it alot


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

In the words of Lee Greenwood,
"God Bless the USA"


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