# What they don't want us to know



## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

There has been allot of big money buying land in large masses around Sandy Creek and the levees are getting allot of attention. They have been flooding the area behind Bolivar dam higher and for longer periods of time than needed 
on a regular basis. Word is it's going to be one of the biggest lakes in Ohio.
This lake has been talked about since the 70's but now things are pointing toward it getting done in my lifetime. Everybody official is hush on the subject until their cronies finish buying up the land. Anyone looking for an investment?


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## ARGEE (Apr 5, 2004)

would that there be the beverly hillbillies?


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

I doubt anything can get by like that these days... Permits and permission from the corp of eng would be required leaving local newspapers, radio and tv on the up and up...


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## gonefishin' (Apr 14, 2004)

Yea, they can't fool us...riiiiight!


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## fish 4 bass (Apr 10, 2004)

Hope your on to something Action. A nice big new lake to play in sounds go to me!  
Not to long ago belden Village was mostly swamp no one wanted.


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

There's a couple guys I've done work for this year that have over a million dollars invested each that really believe this is going to happen. One of them have a good friend thats is a lawyer for the Corp of Engineers or State ( not sure which ).
I know who the lawyer is and he's a local weasel. I don't have the money to invest or I would but I'll pass it on to you guys to further investigate and maybe I can get a commission, like a boat parking spot.


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## "J" (Apr 10, 2004)

Do I hear an OGF resort in the working??? Kick in a couple of bucks and buy a couple of acres and put in a ramp and build a lodge??? Who knows might work. "J"


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

This is awesome! Hopefully it goes through!


J, that sounds like it would be cool! exclusive boat parking and ramp use for OGF members.........Which means anyone since membership is free!

Good Golly, those of you that started OGF could really have something here!


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## ashtonmj (May 3, 2004)

It would have to go through a permit with the US ACOE (Section 404 of Clean Water Act) that takes roughly a year just for the reivew once they have it in hand and a public comment period, along with a Section 401 Permit with the Ohio EPA which is the much harder of the two agencies to get it through. While the ACOE is still in the business of flood control through this means the OH EPA is in the exact opposite, by returning natural patterns of flow and water quality improvement. That also would have to go through public comment period which would also be posted on their website, and this permit also takes no less than a year.


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

There yu go ashton, had to ruin it for us all!


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## Buzzman (May 1, 2004)

How are they required to notify the public through the permit process? Do they have to post it in the paper, place a sign at the site?


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## fffffish (Apr 6, 2004)

Here is some interesting reading I think a dam over 5000 acres of water would be hard to get approved Because of safety factors and what was listed above. there have not been many (if any) big earthen dams build in the last 20 years anywhere in the USA

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/water/dsafety/


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

The dam on this lake has existed for allot longer than 20 years. Bolivar dam has been holding this water back for years, just not on an all the time basis.
Most of the land is useless because of flooding anyhow.


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## ashtonmj (May 3, 2004)

Public notice happens several ways. It can be put into a local paper, it is put on the respective departments website, many times people that work with these agencies are asked for comment through written notification, etc. You'd be checking the Huntington district website of the ACO. http://www.lrh.usace.army.mil/projects/lakes/bos/

The dam already being there that long too probably puts it at a disadvantage for being used to create a larger impoundment. Its current structure most likely does not allow it to exceed a certain volume of water retention and height of water. Safety measures would most likely also have to be put into place by creating a larger impoundment and retrofitting may not be feasible or acceptable.

As it currently stands the Bolivar dam has a max flood pool level of elevation 962 ft and that encompasses approximately 6,500 surface acres. By its definition though it is a dry dam, not having a permanent pool, and functions to prevent downstream flooding by retaining that pool of water.

Its also interesting to note, one of the main features related to the Bolivar Dam is the Magnolia Levee, and is being studyed becuase it is in danger of failing due to the dam function.


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

They've redone both sides of the Magnolia levee, over the past 2 years there's been major almost non-stop work done there. There's been work going on at Bolivar Dam and all through that valley also. My neighbor is currently working between Sandyville and Magnolia moving utilities.
I see allot of indicators, its just wait and see.


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

I am with Action on this! Let's just wait and see! Keep a positive look about it. Why would they do all this work if they are doing nothing at all with a lake?? Seems to me something might be going on! Hopefully  Why would they be moving utilities and people investing in something that is not going to exist??


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## voodoo (Sep 23, 2004)

Hmm funny I might very well be buying a house in sandyville, in fact I'm going to look at one sat. That land in the area is pretty much ( not where I'm buying but closer to the creek) is all but useless most years. Having grown up there and knowing ppl that farmed that area I wouldn't be surprised to see that land go for a song and a dance. That plus the recent stark parks purchase of the elson mill and canal in magnolia could really help bring a few more bucks into that town.


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## reel (Dec 15, 2004)

I am part owner of the 180 acre, Tuscarawas County parcel north of Somerdale OH between the N&W railroad and the Conotton (One Leg) Creek.

Recently the Tuscarawas Tax Office disallowed our CAUV classification (reduction in taxes for farm use) and also disallowed the "waste-land" classification. 

Although we have farmed this property in the past it has become more difficult due to the increase in flooding from the level adjustments at Bolivar Dam.

So we filed a complaint with the Tuscarawas County Board of Revision and gained some tax relief.

At present we are leasing this parcel to a hunting club. As a kid I remember seeing a nice Muskie while fishing the Conotton. Made a few casts but still need 10,000-10 casts yet to land one.

"River Dude" If you run into any of these people wanting to get rid of some more millions of $ for some prime future beach property, have them make offer to:

[email protected]
Tom Reel, Milan OH


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## cuwoohio (Apr 29, 2004)

I still don't understand how this can be going on without everyone knowing about it.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

...because its not


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## cuwoohio (Apr 29, 2004)

Exactly what I was thinking.....


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## ashtonmj (May 3, 2004)

Reel,

If it is old crop land, and or floodplain, why not look into a state or federal grant to turn it into wetland and or praire? There is also the option of finding a land conservancy group to purschase the land and put it into preservation. Another route you can go with that or even in your case since you already are allowing a hunting club to use it, put it in conservation easement which would again lower your taxes. And even further than that you could look into contacting a private environmental firm ( I just happen to know one  ) and look into the possibility of converting it into a wetland mitigation bank. Only problem with that route is there needs to be a market within the watershed and USACOE district, and the frequent inundation of the land would probably ruin that project.


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## reel (Dec 15, 2004)

ashtonmj

Thanks for info. 

We are not necessarily trying to sell, or find the best tax break here.

I was more or less calling out someone willing to pay a ridiculous premium based on this "rumor" thing.

tom...


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

The Corp or any other agency has never felt the need to notify me about anything they're doing, but some of you are probably on their Notify list.  I didn't know about Egypt Valley untill a few months before they were suppose to start it, but I had heard RUMORS.  Unfortunatly it's looking like a gonne now.
The latest........ The old guy that runs the lumber yard in Magnolia said that a guy just bought 200+ acres and just finished a sewer treatment plant in hopes of owning a marina & campground. I can't believe this guy is smart enough to have that kind of money, yet dumb enough to invest it in a lake that aint goinng to happen. I'm checking with everyone I know If you guys got any connections please check it out. I didn't make this story up and everything I told you is fact. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, good or bad.


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## ashtonmj (May 3, 2004)

I would say this group of people is going to be in for a big surprise and angry when they put all their eggs in one basket before they even think about the hoops they have to jump through on this with multiple government agencies. The bigger the scale the worse the odds are against them too to go at it this method by acquiring the land and doing all this work before it is approved let alone made contact with. They are either really far into this pre planning environmental work (which I doubt knowing how developers work, and from what has been said here) or they are really far into a pipe dream that is going to come crashing to a halt. All of that said, that is dependent upon the situation that I think is happening, and that is not incorporating environmental clearances into preplanning, which happens at an incredilbe rate with developers still.

Beyond the 1-2 year process they are going to have to go through with the US ACOE and OEPA for the wetlands 404/401 permitting, they are going to have to go through Bald Eagle surveys, Indiana Bat surveys, a ton of mitigation, SWCD will get involved, the health department, etc. As you see it the list will go on and on and usually when that much money is put into something before this all begins the people can't hold onto the investment and wait. I would say 3 years minimum 5 years conservatively for anything like that to get the go ahead.

And unfortunately "public notice" doesnt really mean sending a post card out notifying the entire, and even immediate public, depending on the type of project. I do highly encourage people to check the OEPA website and whatever USACOE district they are in though.

The sewage treatment project that you mentioned though would have had to gone through a couple different levels of clearance too, OEPA namely, so I would find the paper trail for that and that would show you how legit this really is. And if that guy was smart he would dig out his marina now, on non jurisdictional land, and then if there were to be a lake at some point in time, he would aviod having to go through the US ACOE permit process.

In the end it sounds like a group of people with a pipe dream that don't have the understanding of what they have to go through to get this accomplished and are blindly spending their money away. 

I'd like to especially know or hear from an structural engineer about the dam itself. Because of what it was designed for, this whole idea could be like taking a bridge with a 10 ton capacity and opening it up to 20 ton trucks.


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

If it were to happen and happen rapidly it would still be over 10 years away.
I'm originally from Somerdale and have been around this area for some time and all I know is big money is rolling into the area around Magnolia and something is up. Wheather the big money is right or wrong is yet to be seen.
Either way its good for local economy.


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

Seem if you think people are just wasting money on a "rumor", I think you must take people to be dumb.......Obviously there is something going on if the truth is that people or groups are buying up this land for something.......I mean if someone is buying land to maybe build a marina, I doubt nothing is going on. Just because we all did not hear about this does not mean anything. Egypt Valley was a rumor my uncle said he heard about..He told me that like 7 years ago. Never heard another thing about it till the article was posted! We really don't know. Just because we "should know" does not mean we do until things are set in place for sure. I mean there may not be anything posted until it goes 100% through the system.....Never know. Why not all of us hope for the positive side since we all could benifit from it some day!


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

I ask this then...
Show us where there were any transactions concerning land purchases which are public reacord in the counties there of...
In layman terms while your online simply look up any land parcials that have been bought/sold and the amount of same and post your results here otherwise anyone who reads this is justified in their comments...
The information requested above is available from the county seat  
THANKS for posting your info in advance


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

I'm not looking to prove anything, just letting some local fishermen in on what I've seen and heard. I think its interesting and possible or I wouldn't have brought it up. I'll keep chiming in when I think there is something worthy but I'm not going to go Kenneth Star on it. If any locals are interested they can keep their ears open. Anyone who thinks its a farce can keep ribbing me, but I'm kind of exited at the prospect. Hopefully OGF will be here and in 10 years I'll be dragging this out of the archives to give you a long awaited " I told you so".  Only time will tell.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

I hope it is true Jim for everybody who could benifit either money wise or recreation wise......
But here is what I am telling you... 
If you keep pushing that this is the real deal how would you feel if, on your word alone, someone lost a meaningful amount of money or even their life savings because it never came about?
If I was you I'd do as I suggested above and see what has transpired as far as land transactions in the way of selling or buying at the county seat... 
Simple as that


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## reel (Dec 15, 2004)

Email from my brother who lives in Massilon OH:

Interesting letter on "the guy" from Magnolia. I know someone put a lot of money on the north side of Tuscazoar Rd. The road that goes back to the boy scout camp. A fence along the road is more than a mile long...all locust posts and wire fence.


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

Man Jim, I did not realize you said this was the real deal  I thought you were just saying that you heard this or that.  I appreciate hearing of this no matter what the outcome is, so please keep us informed! No need to prove someone bought some land, just like hearing what people are doing in case there was something. If I had the money to invest and found out it was 100% going to happen, I would do it. Being only 24 means I would have lots of years to enjoy it, but that also means I am not a rich man!  The way the water is up behind the Dover dam, it looks like a lake already!


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## reel (Dec 15, 2004)

I have in my files a 1912 USGS Dover Ohio Quadrangle Map reprinted 1948.
It shows about what this "Big Lake" thing would look like.

This is based on the "Flood easements" contour levels purchased by the Muskingum Watershed Conservance District to keep Marietta from flooding.
I scanned a portion of this map and posted it on my web-site.

It is about a 92k .jpg in size.
If amyone wants more detail it is very easy for me to scan and post.

http://homepages.accnorwalk.com/reeltg/BoliverLake.jpg


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## toboso (Apr 14, 2004)

Not that I need to--or that it helps...

1. There has been a lot of construction around the Dillon Reservoir headwaters during the past few years. Most of the work was in order to create a wetlands area, not to increase/improve the reservoir. Since this land was under USACE jurisdiction anyway ("flood plain"), there was no other viable use for the land. I don't recall any notice about this plan. It either occured as part of ODNR's day-to-day operations (lease), part of USACE's normal directive, by USFWS appeal, USEPA bartering ("environmental equities"--trade land here for wetlands there).

2. Given that Dillon has lost almost 20% of its original capacity to siltation AND other flood reservoirs are seeing the same results, albeit less dramatic, it would not make sense to create a new reservoir. Once the sediment accrues, there is no disposal option other than flushing it downstream (to the next reservoir) or moving it around the lake (dredging silt & dumping near shore)--both are ineffective. Granted, this is largely due to the pollution of yesteryear that is present in the layers of mud, but even "new" reservoirs would face the same environmental challenge--eventually.

3. If the land area upstream from the dam is considered flood plain now, then there's no need to retain water. Most of the USACE reservoirs have been allowed to fill to navigable levels because ODNR leases the rights to do so for recreational purposes. If it were up to USACE, these reservoirs would by "dry dams". Think about it--if the "lake" were empty, wouldn't it be able to control flooding better than if it were already half-full? 

4. Creating an economy from water hasn't worked so well...Look at Salt Fork. Yes, we do need drinking water supply reservoirs, but most major population centers already have water supplies. If we needed more water, it would be near(er) to the population centers, not out in the boonies (MWCD lakes).

5. Given the cutbacks in government (state & federal) natural resource budgets, there's not a lot of money to be spent on a new reservoir--especially in an area already "blessed" with so many fine reservoirs. Even if this were a great investment for the future, our government is not that forward-planning these days.

6. With so much attention and effort being given to removing dams from waterways, I would be hard pressed to believe that a new dam could be built without a major devastation (flood) to justify it. Again, if the land is already flood plain and a dam is present, then the risk has been mitigated.

7. Perhaps the flurry of land-buying and/or improvements is due to flood plain relief due to levee and/or reservoir improvements. IF an area formerly restricted by flood plain limitations becomes useable (build-able) again, the value goes from almost nothing to $$$. This is happening right now to the Franklinton area of Columbus (near west-side). It is possible that somebody believes enough in this to invest their life savings--shall I say Whitewater (Arkansas), a la Clinton?


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

I enjoyed that read THANKS...

Kind of a "I told ya so"...


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

atrkyhntr said:


> I enjoyed that read THANKS...
> 
> Kind of a "I told ya so"...


OK I guess thats it. No new lakes in Ohio for us.  

I'll stick with wait and see though.


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

I am with ya too jim, I guess I was told so too!


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## Action (Apr 8, 2004)

You can still get out to Bolivar Dam as of 11 am today and see what it would look like if they did ever do anything. Its about flooded in though.
I'm not sold the lake thing either but i'm intersted on finding out more about it.
I emailed the Corp and ODNR on this matter just to see what they have to say. I'll keep you guys posted.


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