# Managing the herd



## bobby grant (Mar 6, 2016)

I decided to take this guy out the herd. I didn't want him to pass on his poor genetics I figured him to be atleast 3 3 1/2 years old. Plus he's gonna taste good no matter how big his rack is. Lol


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Congratulations . What makes you think he's 3.5 yrs old ? It's good you have control on the property enough to be able to manage it .


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## bobby grant (Mar 6, 2016)

Carpn said:


> Congratulations . What makes you think he's 3.5 yrs old ? It's good you have control on the property enough to be able to manage it .


Yeah i know what you mean but it doesn't hurt to try. An by age just going by what the butcher told me


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Sure thing man. He'll eat good I bet . Throw some tender loins on the grill and savor that tagged out feeling . Congrats again


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

congrats on getting him. he needed to be culled for sure.
sherman


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## ErieIslander (Jul 12, 2012)

Nice job. You're going to have some good eating!


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

U have to use ur tag to "manage the herd?" just curious.


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## bobby grant (Mar 6, 2016)

SMBHooker said:


> U have to use ur tag to "manage the herd?" just curious.


Yes


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## FISHAHOLIC85 (Apr 22, 2011)

SMBHooker said:


> U have to use ur tag to "manage the herd?" just curious.


Anything you harvest with antlers 3in or better is your buck for the year. Definitely a good one to take out, Bobby. Meat in the freezer is a beautiful thing! Let them big boys get bigger for the next round. Let me know if you want to meet up at the river for steel when they get going good


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

Nice harvest but I don't subscribe to those "helping the gene pool" theories. If you didn't want that buck don't take it out. Let nature do its thing. I love the little bucks bringing the big boys out.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

ostbucks... genetic traits and antler growth is not a theory it is a researched fact....


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Of course it is if you listen to the guys making a living off of people who watch too many hunting shows. 

You can't control a wild herd. Those little guys aren't really passing many , if any, genes along. Not to mention that unless you have them penned up in a high fence or control thousands of acres, you never know what deer are actually moving in. If you want the buck, shoot it. If you don't, don't. Genetics aren't near as important as nutrition and time to grow. I've seen 3 hear old basket racks turn into 4 year old ohio big bucks with the proper nutrition. Of course that was in a farmed deer setting. Those deer aren't any different than the deer in the woods though. They're just controlled easier.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Nice deer by the way. Congrats. Shoot the deer that makes you happy, regardless of size. Don't think you have to make an excuse for anyone.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

beaver said:


> Of course it is if you listen to the guys making a living off of people who watch too many hunting shows.
> 
> You can't control a wild herd. Those little guys aren't really passing many , if any, genes along. Not to mention that unless you have them penned up in a high fence or control thousands of acres, you never know what deer are actually moving in. If you want the buck, shoot it. If you don't, don't. Genetics aren't near as important as nutrition and time to grow. I've seen 3 hear old basket racks turn into 4 year old ohio big bucks with the proper nutrition. Of course that was in a farmed deer setting. Those deer aren't any different than the deer in the woods though. They're just controlled easier.


HUH?! Genetics aren't important? Try telling that to someone who owns thoroughbred racehorses! Or steers or any other kind of stock! Here's a case in point, ME! All my uncles on my Dad's side of the family were 6'2" or better, and my Granddad was 6'4"! All my uncles on my Mom's side of the family were 6'3" or better, and her Dad was 6'3". She was 5'6" and my Dad was 5'9". Guess how tall I turned out to be? 5'9"! All more nutrition would have done for me is make me fatter, not taller! I'm as tall as my genetics say I'm supposed to be! 

As far as the OP's buck goes, congrats to him, and for getting that thing out of the herd! I said the same thing to my buddy last year when he shot this goofy ass spike. The left side was really thick and about 10 inches long, the left was a little nub about 3 1/2"! Just the dumbest looking buck you'd ever want to see. Yet, this thing had a great big body! It was obvious this wasn't some 1 1/2, 2 1/2 year old deer! 

It was just a buck that was never going to grow a nice rack, and yes, it gets plenty of chances to spread it's genes during the rut. 

And if "wanting the deer" is the criterion, then that works here as well. This buck turned up in front of my buddy's blind broadside, and he was going to let him go because of his rack! Then he started thinking that he hadn't shot a deer (he won't shoot does) in nearly 10 years because he kept letting smaller bucks walk waiting for Mr. Big! He finally decided that he wanted to eat some venison, so he wound up wanting this buck! 

And it's eating really well!


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

You guys are nuts! Lol...hey do whatever you think gives you a better chance. If I had total control of a deer ranch then yes I might look at taking him out of the gene pool but if you hunt free range in ohio??? Okey dokey.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Nuts! You're all nuts!!


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## ML1187 (Mar 13, 2012)

bobk said:


> Nuts! You're all nuts!!


It's that time of the year where every deer hunter gets a little nuts don't you think Bob? 

Nice deer OP hope he feeds you well !


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

My tongue isn't hanging out yet


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

ostbucks98 said:


> You guys are nuts! Lol...hey do whatever you think gives you a better chance. If I had total control of a deer ranch then yes I might look at taking him out of the gene pool but if you hunt free range in ohio??? Okey dokey.


Yes, and you're the only sane one here! And yet, your argument kind of works against itself. If you had total control of a deer ranch, of course you'd take that thing out of the herd. If you're hunting free range in Ohio you might probably do the same thing, since you may not see anything better the rest of the season. 

As for me, I've never been a trophy hunter. When I go deer hunting, I go deer hunting. Not buck hunting or trophy buck hunting. I like to eat venison. Of course, it's different strokes for different folks. Whatever greases your skids! If you want to go after Mr. Big, that's fine! But I really don't like eating tag soup!


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

What percent of doe's are bred every year?


Ahhhh....the old "tag soup"....that lil piece of paper that affords you the enjoyment of hunting. Cheap entertainment if You ask me. What else would I rather be doing all winter?


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Uh, maybe eating venison?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Used to be nothing but a trophy hunter. That was years ago.
Now, I'd rather kill a big bodied, scraggly, lopsided buck or even better...a nice fat doe.
If I want to help the gene pool, best I cull those bucks with bad genetics.
And just as important, IMO, do my best to help balance the doe/buck ratio.

Nice buck bobby. I can tell ya from experience, he will taste just as good as any 14-16 pt'er running around.
Enjoy your venison.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

We have great genetics in this state. The bucks just need age. After watching countless bucks grow up over the years I have only seen 1 that never grew into a nice deer. Sure, some are better than others. You never know what they will do from year to year. Until they are mature you can not say that they have bad genetics. I've seen some inferior looking bucks blow up once fully mature.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

fastwater said:


> Used to be nothing but a trophy hunter. That was years ago.
> Now, I'd rather kill a big bodied, scraggly, lopsided buck or even better...a nice fat doe.
> If I want to help the gene pool, best I cull those bucks with bad genetics.
> And just as important, IMO, do my best to help balance the doe/buck ratio.
> ...


I used to be hypnotized by the same "skull job" when the magazines with the pics of the super bucks on their covers would make their appearance in late Summer, early Fall! Then I talked to an old timer at a 3D shoot. He told me that when he goes deer hunting, he goes "deer" hunting! He likes eating venison too much to pass up a great shot at a mature deer, buck or doe! 

The, there are the folks who want to hunt nothing but trophy bucks. That's fine too! Whatever floats your boat. Besides, I figure they leave more deer around for the rest of us. 



supercanoe said:


> We have great genetics in this state. The bucks just need age. After watching countless bucks grow up over the years I have only seen 1 that never grew into a nice deer. Sure, some are better than others. You never know what they will do from year to year. Until they are mature you can not say that they have bad genetics. I've seen some inferior looking bucks blow up once fully mature.


Yes, we have some great genetics in Ohio, but it is by no means universal. And even if it was, it would guarantee nothing. I'm 64 and still dreaming of being 6'3" or 6'4" like my Uncles. Maybe I just need a few more years! But my Dad was 5'9" and so am I, so I don't think that's in the cards for me! 

Maturity should be judged by more than antler growth. Look at the body of the deer! The goofy rack spike my buddy shot last year is a perfect case in point. This thing ended up in front of his blind and he thought about turning it down. But, he hadn't had venison in the freezer for quite a few years so he decided to whack it. 

When he called me to help recover the deer, he concentrated on the rack size, and told me that it wasn't that big of a deer. Once we found it, and I got a good look at it, I asked him what the Hell he was talking about! The deer was huge! Easily 3 1/2 years old. He about killed the both of us dragging him out of there.


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

buckeyebowman said:


> Yes, and you're the only sane one here! And yet, your argument kind of works against itself. If you had total control of a deer ranch, of course you'd take that thing out of the herd. If you're hunting free range in Ohio you might probably do the same thing, since you may not see anything better the rest of the season.
> 
> As for me, I've never been a trophy hunter. When I go deer hunting, I go deer hunting. Not buck hunting or trophy buck hunting. I like to eat venison. Of course, it's different strokes for different folks. Whatever greases your skids! If you want to go after Mr. Big, that's fine! But I really don't like eating tag soup!


That's me.....as long as it does not have spots on it I will most likely take the first deer that comes across my path. Then be done for the year. Lots of jerky and snack sticks for the year. give some to friends and eat while ice fishing. I go out 3 or 4 times a year. Nice change from duck hunting.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

You guys have kind of steered this away from the topic. This isn't a trophy buck vs meat hunter discussion. 

But since it was brought up. My mom is 5'9" and my dad 5'8".......Me and my Brother both 6'5"....lol.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

buckeyebowman said:


> I used to be hypnotized by the same "skull job" when the magazines with the pics of the super bucks on their covers would make their appearance in late Summer, early Fall! Then I talked to an old timer at a 3D shoot. He told me that when he goes deer hunting, he goes "deer" hunting! He likes eating venison too much to pass up a great shot at a mature deer, buck or doe!
> 
> The, there are the folks who want to hunt nothing but trophy bucks. That's fine too! Whatever floats your boat. Besides, I figure they leave more deer around for the rest of us.
> 
> ...


That is why we weigh every single buck that we kill. There is no guessing about it.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

supercanoe... youre response made no sense whatsoever.....?


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

Buckeye Bowman said that maturity can be measured by more than antler size. This is correct. We determine bucks as shooters by antler and body size. We judge body size on the hoof via photos and confirm weights on a scale after we kill them. Once in a while a shooter shows up that is not on film and has to be judged rather quickly. Weighing every deer tells you a lot and makes you better at judging them on the hoof for size and age class.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

supercanoe said:


> Buckeye Bowman said that maturity can be measured by more than antler size. This is correct. We determine bucks as shooters by antler and body size. We judge body size on the hoof via photos and confirm weights on a scale after we kill them. Once in a while a shooter shows up that is not on film and has to be judged rather quickly. Weighing every deer tells you a lot and makes you better at judging them on the hoof for size and age class.


Thank you, sir! And that was the entire point of my posts. You have to look at the rack and the body. If they don't match up, you have a decision to make.

Let's say you have a buck come in front of you with an impressive rack, but with a body that looks taut and lean, like an athletic young man in his late teens, early 20's! That's a deer that could be going somewhere! Or, you see a buck that has a "gut", maybe a dewlap on his chest and a little bit of a swayback. He's jowly with a thick neck. But, he's wearing a dinko set of antlers. Do you really think he'll benefit much from an additional year?


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

And like the Human world those bucks don't pick up many ladies

There is 1000's of studies that go every direction. Cant rule anything out really.


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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

Many of the nations premier whitetail breeders have adopted the belief that does have more to do with genetics than bucks do.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

jray said:


> Many of the nations premier whitetail breeders have adopted the belief that does have more to do with genetics than bucks do.


Glad you brought that up. I thought about mentioning it in my last post but didn't want to go on too long. The doe is half of the equation. What if a doe is bred by a "superbuck", but she is the product of a runt buck coupling with an average or sub-standard doe!? What happens to the genetics then?


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

jray said:


> Many of the nations premier whitetail breeders have adopted the belief that does have more to do with genetics than bucks do.


I wonder if they mention that part to the people that pay big money for the super bucks go juice?


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

jray said:


> Many of the nations premier whitetail breeders have adopted the belief that does have more to do with genetics than bucks do.


Thinking more on this since yesterday, it occurred to me that it may be more than genetics, or it may not! Here's what I mean.

The doe has to carry that fetus to term through the cruelest months of the year. If it is not successful at nourishing itself and avoiding danger, there may be no fawn and maybe no doe either! Then, after the fawn drops, it's dependent on Mama for milk, and then learning how to get around. 

But then it could be that the survival instinct is also genetically coded. But I think deer are pretty cagey critters, and are capable of learning. More on that later! 



bobk said:


> I wonder if they mention that part to the people that pay big money for the super bucks go juice?


Ha! Good point! People are dropping tons of money on food plot seeds (and the expense of plowing, tilling, and planting), nutritional supplements, minerals etc., thinking they can grow a trophy buck. If the genetics are there it might do some good, but if they're not it's just money shot up a cat's rear end!


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Deer hunters are the most gullible group of customers out there.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

buckeyebowman said:


> Thinking more on this since yesterday, it occurred to me that it may be more than genetics, or it may not! Here's what I mean.
> 
> The doe has to carry that fetus to term through the cruelest months of the year. If it is not successful at nourishing itself and avoiding danger, there may be no fawn and maybe no doe either! Then, after the fawn drops, it's dependent on Mama for milk, and then learning how to get around.
> 
> ...



See I disagree. Deer are eating much better than they ever have. Especially in my neck of Vinton County. Very little agriculture but food plots and supplemental feed is everywhere. I can't remember the last deer I killed that didn't have corn in its stomach. Nearest corn fields probably 5-8 miles away.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

ostbucks98 said:


> See I disagree. Deer are eating much better than they ever have. Especially in my neck of Vinton County. Very little agriculture but food plots and supplemental feed is everywhere. I can't remember the last deer I killed that didn't have corn in its stomach. Nearest corn fields probably 5-8 miles away.


Don't misunderstand me. No doubt that food plots and supplemental feeding, bait piles, etc. are supplying deer with additional nutrition. This can help deer put on fat, help bucks recuperate after the rut, and help impregnated does keep weight on and maintain the viability of their fetus(es). 

All I'm saying is that all that food is not going to make a buck who's genetics dictate that he will be an 8 point (your "average" buck if it's allowed to grow to maturity), into a 12 or 14 point or whatever. It will just make him a "fatter" 8 point. 

Genetics are a tricky business. As I said in an earlier post, when I was a kid I dreamed about being as tall as one of my Uncles. My blood Uncles on both sides of the family went from 6'2" to 6'6". My Mom's Dad was 6'2" and my Dad's Dad was 6'4"! But my Dad was 5'9" and my Mom was 5'6", so guess what? I'm 5'9"! As is my brother, and my two Sisters are 5'6". I guess the "tall" gene missed us! 

Oddly enough, both of my Grandmothers were women of small stature. How much does the female contribute genetically to the offspring? You decide. 

A little off topic, but I have an old, old photograph of my Great Grandparents and their 4 kids, 2 boys and 2 girls. The girls are identical twins, one of them is my maternal Great Grandmother, and both of them look exactly like my Mom! And, my Great Grandfather and one of his Sons look exactly like me! It's kind of spooky! 

I suppose such things might go on in the deer world, but it's much easier for us humans to parse out differences and similarities in human faces.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

Protein intake has I think way more to do with a bucks antler growth and size. Again this is all opinion and based off what I have seen not read in so and so's study. I mean I could apply for a grant and do a 10 year study and report my findings like all the others. I've worked with some deer farms and its really not so much genetics (although you can see some genetic traits in off spring bucks were their antlers resemble daddy's) but if you feed them the right diet its exponentially a greater effect.


Again my situation is the exact opposite as yours. Parents 5'7" and me and my brother 6'5". 

Genetics are so complicated and lengthy. I guess what I'm trying to say is kill whatever deer You want. "Cleaning the gene pool" could be a scientific argument but in free range deer your not really making much of a difference. If I had a high fence 6000 acre spread then I might off that buck. Only reason I chimed in is because original poster came off as if He really didn't want to kill this buck but did because he felt it was genetically inferior. Which is most likely the case but not on a scale We will ever see.


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