# Low numbers



## r9ptbuck (Sep 22, 2006)

Just wanted to get a feel for what everyone else is seeing. We have farms in both Carroll and Tuscarawas counties and just have not seen the numbers this year. We have seen more bucks than does but overall very slow.

I know its not due to warm weather, as there just isn't much movement even after dark (trail cams). I think a 6 deer limit is to liberal, as well as too many kill permits being issued.

Thoughts....


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## billk (Feb 2, 2008)

I hunt Medina (private) and Belmont (public) Counties. 

In Belmont we started seeing way too many scrubs buck and fewer does two years ago. This year we're wondering where to go opening day the numbers are down so much. Saw zero rut activity there this year.

Medina Co on private land I'd seen over 40 deer on stand by this time last year. So far this year, I've seen 13 and they're the same two does, three yearlings, and two scrub bucks. Last year I was able to ID around 18 individual bucks/does. This is on about three acres of wooded area adjoined by other properties. 

Deer population has been pasted too hard the last few years with the six deer limits. ODNR need to cut it in half for a few years to bring the numbers back up. Don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen though. The liberal limits and low non-resident fees have brought in way too many dollars for them to go back to a lower limit. That's non even taking into account the farmers and insurance co's that lobby for the liberal limits to take the numbers down.

That's my rant and I'm sticking to it.


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## r9ptbuck (Sep 22, 2006)

I figured I wasn't the only one. Its sad when you have to tell people that hunt on your property to lay off the does. I remember not to many years ago we were seeing 10 to 15 deer a night. Now I can watch over our corn field (17 acres) and not see a deer cross it in 4 to 5 hours. FRUSTRATED!


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## Reel Bad Habit (Feb 9, 2007)

I have been hunting Belmont County for over 15 years and have always seen plenty of deer of all sizes. This year we are not seeing any young deer and the big question is are the coyotes killing all the fawns. We hear them every evening more than ever.


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## killingtime (Apr 29, 2009)

i hunt here in perry county and we too are seeing alot fewer does. we have identified 14 different bucks from stand and trail cameras. i guy that hunts less than a quarter mile from me said he found 9 deer dead the summer before from that blue tongue outbreak or whatever they call it where the bug crawls up there nose and bites them and they die. this is what i heard so its all hearsay. if it is true then i am sure more dear died than just the 9 he found. there was cases of this about 8 miles from my house and they found 20 something deer dead. i did not witness all this but heard about it from people i trust. i to think limits should be lowered except in urban areas whwere they are in abundance. just my .02 cents.


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## saugeyesam (Apr 20, 2004)

I was wondering when someone would bring this up. I'm not sure where the DNR is getting their numbers from, but between the record deer kills, blue tongue, and the heavy snow and cold temps last year, I just can't see how the herd has increased so much that the limits should be as high as they are. I have also been seeing an abundance of Bucks and very few does. And the ones I have seen have been solo with no little ones with them. Where are the fawns? Something just doesn't seem right this year that's for sure.


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## mrtwister_jbo (Apr 7, 2004)

here in jefferson co i know i seeing a lot less deer than last yrlast yr you could go 4 a ride in the evening an see around 75 to 100 deer standing in the fields the last 2 evenings that me an the wifie took our ride we only seen 25deer in the 2 nights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hunting this yr we have seen alot less does an less deer all around
in one of our fav spots that we would always see aleast 10 or more evertime out,we have had days that we would only see 1 or 2 an they are mostly little bucks.we have seen mr coyote 2 times an have found a lot of coyote sign this yr
on another place i hunt in northern jefferson co i have only seen a couple of deer this yr,and this place is full of deer hav'nt found alot of sign there.there our some trails from last yr that theres no tracks,rubs or scraps on at all
then again i've only been out there 4or 5 times i have seen mr coyote there a couple of times!!!
twister


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## FISH DINNER (Jul 23, 2010)

Before everyone starts sounding the horn on falling deer numbers, I have to ask one question. Where are most of you that aren't seeing much action hunting? Open fields and woodlines or deeper in the trees? A lot of hunters have been forced to change strategy this year and climb down out of that favorite stand overlooking a crop field because of the abundant acorn mast. We have had the greatest acorn mast in something like 6 years. If you were a big buck with a price tag on your head, what would you be doing this season? I tell you what I would be doing, visiting the oak tree that is closest to my bedding area or the one closest to the bedding areas of does. I wouldn't be risking my neck stepping out into an open field when there is more than enough food laying under the nearest oak tree. Its just a suggestion and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, but I have a feeling that reports of deer numbers might change if you look into hunting the oak flats.


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## martinconcrete (Feb 4, 2006)

Our propertys on the Harrison/Jefferson border its seems like the deer have vanished. Trails that have been highways for 15 years are all but gone. Have hunted it only a few times due to work, but the times I have been out, I have only seen 2 different spikes. It was almost a guarantee in the past to see deer everytime you went out. it will be interesting to see what next week will bring. I know that surrounding neighbors have been all fill their tags. Personally I think 6 deer is way too many, unless you rely on venison to feed you family. Im sure this has something to do with it


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## mikeshookset (Feb 28, 2005)

coyotes are the biggest proublem they eat the fawns in the spring and after the rut they work on the bucks that are wore out from the rut . a dead coyote is a good coyote shoot em all.


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## walleyewrangler13 (Apr 2, 2010)

here in ne ohio deer numbers have seemed to go way down. i remember hunting 4 years ago with my dad in a buddy stand and seeing 10 to 15 does a hunt. now a days hunting we are lucky to see 1 or 2 deer a hunt. the passed two years we have seen more bucks (small bucks) then usual and a lot less does. (seen more bucks than does this year so far)

my theory is that since our hunting area is so close to PA (literally about 300 yards from the border) the same deer (mainly does) that roam our area also roam over in PA. PA's new buck regs require a buck to have atleast three points to one antler and some areas four points to an antler. PA doesnt have that kind of deer population with larger bucks which means PA hunters are not seeing big enough bucks to shoot. so instead they are shooting bunches of does. (same does that run in my hunting area in ohio) which explains the low doe numbers. 

yes i agree with PA bucks getting a chance to get bigger and mature. But i believe their dumb regs have ruined my hunting for a long time! 
just my opinion.


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## Angler ss (May 15, 2008)

I also feel 6 deer per zone is way to many. I think I also read on this site a person can kill 18 deer in ohio each year 3 different zones and 6 urban. I was one who kept talking about the walleye numbers where going down when other members strongly disagreed this past season was even slower and now some are starting to agree and more are complaining about the low eye numbers. I hunt land in two different counties. My spot in Sandusky county the deer herd is up some this year from last year but the spots in Huron county I only seen turkeys, deer are few and far between.The two counties touch but Sandusky is a 2 deer county and Huron is a 4 deer county.Mabey this is why the deer numbers in Sandusky county seem to be doing better and Huron counties seem to be doing poor. The state has done a good job managing the deer herd so far but they keep looking at the deer herd kill totals and they feel if the kill totals are up or the same as last year then the herd must be doing ok. The bag limits keep going up so the state can sell more permits $$$. We should learn from the duck numbers and walleye numbers and fix the deer bag limit before deer numbers drop to low then have a freak winter or disease and the numbers really drop.
Angler ss


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## The Big Ugly (Jan 5, 2010)

I agree, Very few doe's out there. Way too many kill permits are being handed out. I would be happy with a two deer limit.


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

I hunt Jefferson County. The numbers of deer are down
and have been for the last several years.When I've talked
to the people at the check stations they say the same thing.
Same as the hunters,farmers,land owners and neighbors I talk to.

But according to the ODNR Jefferson County numbers stay
about the same between 4K and 5K are taken every year.
It's a mystery to anyone who pays attention to such things.

I have heard all kinds of theory's from hemorrhagic disease,the
Amish hit squads,coyotes,6 deer bag limits all the way to 
the economy and all the out of work people feeding their 
families.

Not sure what it is but there are less deer around here too.


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## ohiogary (Dec 14, 2006)

On our small farm of 38 acres located in belmont county we are not seeing the deer either . I plant food plots and we let the does walk, most of the time you can ride around on the 4 wheeler and see a number of does any given time. A lot of the bedding areas they use to use is not be occupied. There just not there, its like they have vanished. One morning in late October while bow hunting I had a yearling doe run by the stand and a moment later here comes 2 coyotes hot on her track. Not blaming it all on coyotes, but they have moved into our neighborhoods, which also use to offer a safe haven for the deer. And with coyotes with no natural predators, it doesnt look good.


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## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

I live deep in the woods here in Guernsey county.
Numbers are way down in my area also.
I hunt at least 5 days a week during the bow season so I have a pretty good handle on what is available,oak flats included.
I drive lots of rural roads and sightings are far fewer.
I have a corn feeder in the back yard. Up until this year it was not uncommon to have about 15 deer around this feeder daily.This year it usually the same 2 or 3 deer.
The coyotes moved in a couple years ago..conicidence???
Myself and the family that hunts my land normally do not kill the does,but it might be getting to be time to make them off limits.


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## pal21 (Mar 9, 2008)

Numbers have been slowly going down in Vinton for the past several years. Maybe the ODNR should ask the farm bureau and the insurance companies if it would be OK to go back to a two deer limit.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

I hunt mostly Delaware and Crawford counties. The deer on public land in Delaware county have been hammered by these liberal bag limits. The population as a whole has definately taken a BIG hit in these areas. 

I think the liberal bag limits were a big push by the Farm Bureau. The ODNR implemented the new HuntOhioFarms program in order to get more hunters access to land that has a high deer population. I don't know a single person that has gotten access through this program. FAIL. The FB dropped the ball, and I now hope the ODNR will ignore the FB in the future since they have proved that they are not interested in working "with" the ODNR and Ohio's hunters.


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## Huntinbull (Apr 10, 2004)

I think part of the reason people are not seeing as many deer is the heavy mast crop this year. Because a deer's favorite food is everywhere this year, the populations are not as concentrated on agriculture. I think the deer are out there, but figuring the highest percentage areas to find or see them is gonna be a little more difficult.

Good luck next week!!


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## pal21 (Mar 9, 2008)

crittergitter said:


> I hunt mostly Delaware and Crawford counties. The deer on public land in Delaware county have been hammered by these liberal bag limits. The population as a whole has definately taken a BIG hit in these areas.
> 
> I think the liberal bag limits were a big push by the Farm Bureau. The ODNR implemented the new HuntOhioFarms program in order to get more hunters access to land that has a high deer population. I don't know a single person that has gotten access through this program. FAIL. The FB dropped the ball, and I now hope the ODNR will ignore the FB in the future since they have proved that they are not interested in working "with" the ODNR and Ohio's hunters.


A lot of hunters are talking about not seeing many deer.
It has been rumered for a long time that limits are dictated by the insurance industry and the farm bureau. If that is true, sportsman don't a lot of influence on what the DNR decides to do. If the numbers for next week are off by 10% or more from recent years, assuming decent weather, I think that would be a strong indicator.


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## wildman (Sep 3, 2008)

Lewis said:


> I live deep in the woods here in Guernsey county.
> Numbers are way down in my area also.
> I hunt at least 5 days a week during the bow season so I have a pretty good handle on what is available,oak flats included.
> I drive lots of rural roads and sightings are far fewer.
> ...



I agree and I am seeing the same but I also think a little bit of huntinbull is true also. I do think that the #'s are down...


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## Toxic (May 13, 2006)

crittergitter said:


> The ODNR implemented the new HuntOhioFarms program in order to get more hunters access to land that has a high deer population. I don't know a single person that has gotten access through this program. FAIL.


I haven't heard of any myself. Sounds like a poll is in order.


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## TomC (Aug 14, 2007)

I guess im lucky after reading this. There are yotes up my way but I dont think they really bother the deer. Ive seen a few yearlings grow up this year with their mothers. The does have always been in a group of 2 or 3. There is one group that has 7-9 in it and they are always together. 

The bucks. Well we've seen a 4pt, 3 diff 6pts, one i shot and couldnt find, a wide but not so tall 8pt, and a 10pt.

My stand has been in the same spot for the past seven years and the deer have used the same trails this year that they have in the past. Their pattern stays the same up until the rut when it changes just like everywhere else. Their patterns and time are and remain like clock work. They come out in the morning and move till 10:30ish then move again starting around 5ish. Its been the same times for all the years ive hunted the land.(GUN WEEK IS THE ONLY EXCEPTION). during gun week i know all bets are off with more hunters being out and pushing them. Prime example my 10pt i got at 2:30pm on a wed of gunweek due to being pushed out of a thicket. 

I would love to see a two deer limit, if you need more meat than that raise a cow!


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## jboss (Mar 31, 2008)

Im in ne ohio and from what im seeing are numbers are up i have 163 acres about half are woods seeing lots of does and young bucks but i dont let anyone else hunt here except family so pressure is pretty low


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## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

I talked to 2 other Guernsey county landowners this afternoon.
They both live about 15 miles from me.Deer numbers have been way down for them too even before the record mast crop started to fall.
Out of my stands I am still seeing quite a few young bucks and a couple big mature bucks.
Just seeing a lot less does and yearlings.


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## Bulldawg (Dec 3, 2007)

My Spots I have to hunt have not been putting out good numbers for me either . But some spots that have not been good in the past have been great this year . Very odd , but I will say I have seen alot of deer in the acorns this year . You also have to factor in that most of the corn crop was taken sooo early this year . I think it pushed the deer to the soft mast (acorns) , but it pushed to feed under the safety of darkness. Everytime I was hunting over acorns in the evening the deer ALWAYS came in at last light . 

I do think they should lessen the limits for next year . I myself have heard from everyone that numbers are down !!!!


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Toxic said:


> I haven't heard of any myself. Sounds like a poll is in order.


We did one on Ohiosportsman. Out of 45 responses, not one person has heard a peep from a farmer. The only thing anyone has gotten out of it has been a mail solicitation from the FB for money. Ha, imagine that.


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## idontknow316 (Mar 21, 2008)

I also think the limits are a bit high. I think two is plenty. I was lucky enough to shoot a doe on the second day of bow season. I haven't had time to hunt much with me working full time and attending school full time, and a 7 year old and a 5 month old. But despite that I have seen a lot of deer the past few times I've hunted. I shot one last week but I didn't put a good hit on it and couldn't find it. Today i passed on a small buck. I'm seeing more deer than I did last year.

All of the does that I have seen have been solo, with no yearlings near them. I don't think that is a good thing.


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

I hunt a number of farms in Ashtabula,Tuscarawas,and Coshocton. I also have numerous hunting buddies that hunt other area's. We all agree that the numbers are down. I believe I have seen more bucks than does this year! I too agree that the state is getting a little too liberal with the number of tags they allow. I also believe that with the new check in system implemented for next year the number of deer shot will not reflect the "actual" numbers shot. Ohio may be working on a real mess in the future?


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## idontknow316 (Mar 21, 2008)

Snook said:


> I hunt a number of farms in Ashtabula,Tuscarawas,and Coshocton. I also have numerous hunting buddies that hunt other area's. We all agree that the numbers are down. I believe I have seen more bucks than does this year! I too agree that the state is getting a little too liberal with the number of tags they allow. I also believe that with the new check in system implemented for next year the number of deer shot will not reflect the "actual" numbers shot. Ohio may be working on a real mess in the future?


Which is a shame because Ohio is a great place to deer hunt. I think the shoot more does attitude may be damaging the population.


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## jrsfish (May 21, 2004)

I"ll guarntee you the deer harvest numbers will not be down this year,The ODNR wont let that happen,its strictly a money game, bigger harvest numbers,more tags sold. How can anyone beleive the numbers anyway. Just like the walleye problem,thell never do anything that will reduce license sales.


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

Hauntingbull said:


> I think part of the reason people are not seeing as many deer is the heavy mast crop this year. Because a deer's favorite food is everywhere this year, the populations are not as concentrated on agriculture. I think the deer are out there, but figuring the highest percentage areas to find or see them is gonna be a little more difficult.
> 
> Good luck next week!!


That's kind of strange (to me) about the mast crop of acorns for the fact that where I hunt is in and around the hardwood lots in my area. There are no farms close to where I bow hunt. It's all wood lots on ridge tops and deep hollows between small towns and rural roads. The few farms that are remotely close only cut hay from their fields.

For the past several years we were blaming the lack of acorns for the lower numbers of deer. Now with a bumper crop I thought I would see a few more but that's not the case. I do understand that this is the first good acorn crop in several years and that it will take several more like it to make a difference. 

But that being said: I bow hunted my favorite spot where there are quite a few white oaks and the deer have been feeding there but in way fewer numbers than in years past. 

It's not like deer have disappeared around here but 5 years ago I would see 15 to 20 every time I went out now it may be 0 to 2 or 3. No longer do I see family groups of 5 to 9 it's more groups of 2 or 3 and fewer groups than ever.

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining (yet) I remember when it was allot worse than it is now. I'm just afraid that it's going to return to those days when you may only see 2 or 3 shooters for all of gun season with allot of nothing in between (except miles on your boots).


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## PromiseKeeper (Apr 14, 2004)

I havent hunted deer for several years, but still am interested enough to follow the discussion. I have a couple of observations of my own and wonder what you guys think. I drive a school bus and normally can tell you where every deer crossing is and which fields they will be feeding in. This year I'm seeing far fewer deer. If wht some are saying about the mast crops changing things, it would follow that I would not be seeing them. 

Here's my question... isn't this alot like lowering the perch limit for fisherman on Erie when you're fishing next to a commercial netter taking them out by the metric ton? I understand the hunter's concern and appreciate their willingness to take fewer deer to better manage the herd, but when the state issues nuisance permits so freely, is lowering the bag limit the whole answer? I know a guy that has just a few acres that has kill permits for 35 deer! I wonder if we could leave the bag limit alone so families could enjoy the meat and curtail the nuisance permits where lots of deer are just wasted?


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## pal21 (Mar 9, 2008)

Giving 35 permits to anyone with "just a few acres" is just plain stupid IMHO.

Road kills are usually a good indicater of deer numbers. I'll be driving I-71 Medina to Columbus tomorrow. That is always good for 6 to 10. I'll take a count on the way down.

jrsfish may be on to something. could be a "follow the money" type of thing.


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## BigV (Nov 11, 2004)

pal21 said:


> Numbers have been slowly going down in Vinton for the past several years. Maybe the ODNR should ask the farm bureau and the insurance companies if it would be OK to go back to a two deer limit.


Total deer Harvest for Vinton County:

2008/2009 1538
2009/2010 1829

Looks like the numbers are going UP to me...


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## Huntinbull (Apr 10, 2004)

Big V, I concur.

Bonemann, My point was that if there is only one grocery store in a town, then you know where everyone will go for groceries. If 10 stores open up, the numbers of people at the original store will dwindle. have to cover multiple grocery stores to see the same people/numbers of people. Most bowhunters i know have relied heabvily on the draw of agricultural crops as an attractant for the deer. With the phenominal acorn crop this year, the numbers of deer MOST hnters will see is probably down. Even oak stands that have done good for me in the past, those i picked because they dropped acorns reliably due to available water etc, have seen lower numbers of deer using them. i suppose that is because the deer have more choices available. 

I figure the youth season saw a higher number of bucks taken, possibly of both gender of deer. I also think that the total number of deer TAGGED this year will be the same or better than last year.


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## The Ojibwa (May 30, 2010)

I hunt Delaware Co. public land and have seen just as many deer as ever. A lot of you guys are crying over the bag limits but honestly, how many people you know fill six tags? I hunt pretty hard during bow season on weekends and am certainly NOT the greatest hunter, but I struggle to fill two tags by season's end. All of my buddies seldom take more than 2 deer...just my experience.

I know up here in NW Ohio you can visit any metro park or wooded area and the damage from overbrowsing is apparant if you look close. Cbus is the same. ODNR's responsiblility is not just managing populations for us hunters; it is about the health of the resource and overabundant deer are not healthy for our ecosystem. I'm sure the harvest data will be very interesting this year.

Personally, I want fewer deer of better quality than abundant deer of small size like in some of our neighbor states.


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## Huntinbull (Apr 10, 2004)

the DOW officers in three counties, Cuyahoga, Summit and Portage, say that less than one tenth of one percent of hunters will fill more than four tags. The high tag limits are just in hopes that more deer will be taken. I know if I only have one tag left available to me, i may be a little more choosy.


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## BigV (Nov 11, 2004)

The Ojibwa said:


> I hunt Delaware Co. public land and have seen just as many deer as ever. A lot of you guys are crying over the bag limits but honestly, how many people you know fill six tags? I hunt pretty hard during bow season on weekends and am certainly NOT the greatest hunter, but I struggle to fill two tags by season's end. All of my buddies seldom take more than 2 deer...just my experience.
> 
> I know up here in NW Ohio you can visit any metro park or wooded area and the damage from overbrowsing is apparant if you look close. Cbus is the same. ODNR's responsiblility is not just managing populations for us hunters; it is about the health of the resource and overabundant deer are not healthy for our ecosystem. I'm sure the harvest data will be very interesting this year.
> 
> Personally, I want fewer deer of better quality than abundant deer of small size like in some of our neighbor states.


Well said!


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have been seeing less deer and the camera's have been taking less pics this year especially the last 2-3 weeks.

In spite of my lack of sightings I seriously doubt any populations reduction in the area I hunt in Athens county.

I'll know for sure by about 10AM on Monday morning, when all of hunters are out on the adjoining properties. I expect I'll see the normal 40-50 deer running across the land on Monday, but we'll see.


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## pal21 (Mar 9, 2008)

BigV said:


> Total deer Harvest for Vinton County:
> 
> 2008/2009 1538
> 2009/2010 1829
> ...


You need to do a little more homework. As recent as 2007/08, over 3300. Prior to that always right around 3000 
.


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## harleydan1956 (Mar 13, 2010)

I hunt 2 farms, 1 in Harrison Co and 1 in Carroll co. I see tons of deer in harrison co, but not many in carroll. I do take a very active roll in Predator hunting in harrison, mainly because I have hunted that farm for over 30 years. I have seen the number of coyotes increase so much the the last 5-7 years. I kill from 4-6 every year off of that farm alone. Just picked up carroll co farm and our trail cameras pickup alot of deer.. after dark. 1 week took over 37 pics and showed deer in every one from midnight to 3:00am. Are they "hiding" from poaching or coyotes"? I rarely see them in fields till almost dark. but have seen them in thick dense woods, close to houses... change in patterns?
Some of my trail cameras rarely get a pic, but some are getting numerous ones every night. They seem to be deep, eating acorns during the day, and not showing themselves in the fields till the safety of darkness... 
I honestly don't know anyone that takes 6 deer a year. but I'm betting, when the fawns are born, it's a buffet for coyotes. Stay around till the food runs out and move to the next herd. 6-8 coyotes eat alot. Gorge themselves... even if they kill 6 fawns total... over the course of a few years, the herd is knocked back considerably. 
This is just my opinion. Yes, hunting coyotes is somewhat expensive, call, rifle, etc.. but I think it is fun and I have seen a big difference in the number of deer I see during the day. Look at Texas, they advertise predator hunts for like $50 a day, guide included... why? they kill large numbers every year of coyotes and look at the numbers they have of deer... they make up their money during deer season with ample deer...
Again, sure lower the numbers of tags, out of state should be a lottery, not over the counter... and ask hunters to help with predators..

just my ******* old man opinion...


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## SwollenGoat (Apr 13, 2005)

I feel fish and game management is always more of an art than a true science. The bag limits are set based on many factors, gathered from different areas all over the state. There is never going to be a perfect "one size fits all" scenario so the ODNR has to come up with a best guess to cover the entire state.

FWIW - I deer hunt both Licking Co. and Vinton Co. In Licking I have seen no decline in deer population "where I hunt", however I am sure there are others who might say differently. However, I have noticed fewer deer "where I hunt" in Vinton Co. but I know guys 10 miles away (same county) that say the numbers are up and they take way more deer every year than we do. So with that in mind, it's easy to understand that even within different areas of each county there could be more or less deer based on the local environment, hunting pressure and other factors.


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

I bow hunt an awful lot; probably much more than most guys get a chance to and this year was very interesting.

My partner and I often hunt a particular field edge which affords panoramic views of the entire field from most of the stands we have lining the edge of the 10 acre field. The activity in and around the edges of the field this year was down....waaaaay down. 

However, as soon as I got off the field edge and deeper into the woods near the white oaks, the activity was normal to above average...but only for a while. It was as though they fed that area until they had browsed it out and then moved on.

Like all of the others on this thread, I considered all the possibilities. Maybe the farm wasn't holding as many deer. Maybe township or county that I'm hunting has been over-hunted or maybe there was something of a winter kill last fall. 
Coyotes? Trespassers on the farm recently? We did have a problem with guys trespassing with those dang 4-wheelers previously. And on and on. 

I also considered why the field activity was down. I could only conclude that the highest field/deer activity took place when the field was allowed to grow higher. The farmer had been taking hay from it more regularly and it was just about ankle-high as opposed to about waist-high as it was in the past. I figured that the animals are not nearly as comfortable be more "out in the open" so to speak. The activity in that field was lower than I've ever seen it and we've hunted it for 10 years. That's a big drop.

But..............................................

Again this year we had a very, very warm first 2 weeks of November. The early evening, late morning activity was, in my opinion, thwarted by day time temps in the 60's for extended periods of time...almost two weeks or so this year. 

I paid particular attention to the movement WITHIN the woods after we got off the green field edge. And just like Bulldawg observed, my partner and I both noticed that immediately after it was too dark to shoot, you could hear the deer get up and start moving and chasing. You could hear multiple animals in places where you'd swear there wasn't a mouse moving when the light was still up.You could easily hear them moving because of the heavy blanket of very dry leaves and you could, of course, hear them grunting at each other. The county we hunt in is VERY quiet, the farm is off the beaten path, so its easy to hear a lot of things you might not hear in a more urbanized or suburbanized area.

I also noticed that it seemed that the areas with white oaks had activity until they had eaten the bulk of the acorns in that area. Then they seemed to move onto another area which had acorns but was basically unbrowsed. (The wooded area of the farm has multiple areas with white oaks.)

I also noticed that the movement of the animals changed as the leaves dropped off. It always does, but this year, the leaves seemed to be drier and they were cleaned off the trees earlier. The deer seemed to move into the much thicker areas and they seemed to stay in there...until dark. It was as though it was too noisy to move until they had the cover of full darkness.

It was a tougher year. All of the above is, of course, just my opinion and I don't have the answers, but I definitely saw fewer deer overall. However, I'm just not sure that means there are actually fewer deer. 

As to the ODNR, I think they have a very tough job managing both the herd AND the politics involved in pleasing farmers, motorists, and hunters simultaneously. 

No matter what, these are the "good ol days" of deer hunting. I can remember when whitetails in Ohio were as rare as rooster pheasants are these days. 

Hope you all have a successful first day of gun season if you're lucky enough to be out there.:!


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

The Ojibwa said:


> I hunt Delaware Co. public land and have seen just as many deer as ever. A lot of you guys are crying over the bag limits but honestly, how many people you know fill six tags? I hunt pretty hard during bow season on weekends and am certainly NOT the greatest hunter, but I struggle to fill two tags by season's end. All of my buddies seldom take more than 2 deer...just my experience.
> 
> I know up here in NW Ohio you can visit any metro park or wooded area and the damage from overbrowsing is apparant if you look close. Cbus is the same. ODNR's responsiblility is not just managing populations for us hunters; it is about the health of the resource and overabundant deer are not healthy for our ecosystem. I'm sure the harvest data will be very interesting this year.
> 
> Personally, I want fewer deer of better quality than abundant deer of small size like in some of our neighbor states.


This is unbelievable to me. I hunt there to, and I hunt a lot and I have seen 5 doe. Maybe that is plenty for you, but to me, that translates into there is less deer than there was 4 years ago, 10 years ago and 15 years ago.


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## alumcreeker (Nov 14, 2008)

i live in the delaware wild life area and i can say that there are a ton of deer around here just last week my girlfriend seen 25 in one field driving home and in the early season i knew of a field where there were countless numbers out feeding i have seen a great number of deer everywhere i have hunted this year the mature bucks where a bit harder to find but once i found them i found a bunch of them


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## killingtime (Apr 29, 2009)

another reason the deer are harder to find in some areas is that there are more people moving to the country and buying good chunks of land and they dont let people hunt for one reason or another. if someone buys 100 acres or more and they dont let people hunt and they dont there own property then the deer have a safe heaven and they know where to go to be safe. the area i live this has happened to a few good farms and it can be tough to hunt sometimes.


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## mickeysdad (Mar 10, 2010)

Too bad there's no hunting in Medina township - I saw 30 deer on Friday alone.


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## The Ojibwa (May 30, 2010)

crittergitter said:


> This is unbelievable to me. I hunt there to, and I hunt a lot and I have seen 5 doe. Maybe that is plenty for you, but to me, that translates into there is less deer than there was 4 years ago, 10 years ago and 15 years ago.


I'll agree that I've seen less dead on the road on 23 but I've had 10 in range (shot one of those) and probably 5 not far out of range and about 5 more that were aways off. I have hunted mostly near bedding areas. I've hunted about 8 mornings & 8 evenings total and twice at midday. I dunno your definition of plenty of deer but that is in fact, plenty for me!

If you've only seen five, perhaps you need to adjust your technique. PM me and I'd be happy to talk about it more and give you advice.


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## MuskieManOhio (Jun 29, 2008)

you guys should of been in west virginia it was like a ghost town (woods) with only seeing 3 deer in the whole week which usually i see close to 200..?


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## BigBag (Jan 11, 2009)

We are hunting in Holmes, Tuscarawas, and Coshocton counties. I have to say we are seeing no difference in numbers. We dont hunt field edges though, we are getting our exercise hiking back in, same as every other year. A couple of weeks ago was some of the best rut hunting I have ever had in Ohio. These are all private property farms. I cannot speak for Public Grounds...


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## island troller (Nov 14, 2007)

I was agreeing with the idea of low numbers this year. I did not see nearly the number of does this year during bow season, in Licking County. Then I hunted the same property on the first day of gun season and had a total of 22 does within gun range. That was the most I ever seen on opeing day on this property. And of course I am only hunting for a buck now.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

I saw 3 doe on public land in Delaware county. However, my uncle was less than a mile away and he saw 14 deer to include 2 bucks. His buddy said they used to see 20 -25 deer on opening day in that exact same spot. So, they agree with me that the numbers are down a little in that area.


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## cubsfan (Nov 17, 2008)

I hunted down in Meigs county on my uncles land and we always used to see close to a 100 or so from RT33 to his place which is about 5miles. This year we never counted more then 20 and yesterday 11hrs in the woods with 3 other guys 0, there were shots being fired all over so they are out there. I think alot of the movement is related to crop cycles (wheat then corn) was differnt this year alond his road. I dont know just a quess or should I say hope!


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## katfish (Apr 7, 2004)

I may be one lone voice in the crowd but I will state my opinion.

Wildlife officials, like most government agencies, are slow to make changes.
With fish and game this is often a good thing.

Animal populations rise and fall annually and seem to have cycles.
Most of the peaks and valleys in any given population are due to environmental conditions. Since we have no control over weather or little control over disease in wild animals, we must first study cause and effect before making a decision on the remedy.

Knee jerk reactions such as changing limits/seasons may be irrelevent or possibly harmful. My theory is that hunting has a modest effect on Ohio's deer herd. I would guess that cold wet Spring weather kills more deer than any other factor. Fawns get pnuemonia during cold wet Springs. Drought can reduce food supplies and cause temporary drops in numbers. One sign of overpopulation is disease. Undernourished animals have weakened defense systems and an illness can quickly reduce a population. 
Deer/car accidents are a visible sign of mortality but actually a small percentage compared to environmental deaths which are usually unseen or undocumented.

Anyone that is old enough can remember dips and rises in Ohio deer numbers.
It may take years to understand the reasons and make appropriate adjustments. If you look at a historical perspective of deer management in Ohio you will see that ODNR has done an outstanding job of building a great herd of deer.

I know it may be disappointing to see less deer or less trophy bucks, but sometimes there are factors that man cannot control. I urge everyone to practice a little patience and have faith that Game managers only have your best interests at heart.

I am willing to bet that revenue from additional deer tags is much less than money brought in from out of state hunters, taxes on hunting gear, motel rooms, food for hunting camps, and other hunting related items.


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## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

Well,I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
Yesterday the floodgates opened up on my property.I dont know where all these deer were hiding during the rut but,I saw over 35 deer yesterday.
Mostly does,but several bucks including a nice 10pt that would just not take that one more step into the clear to offer me a good shot.
They were feeding and moving all day long.
3 or the 4 bucks that I saw were either trailing or chasing does,so there is still some rut activity going on.
Strange seeing all these deer because there was very little hunting pressure or shooting on the surrounding properties.
It was just a weird rut season for me with minimal sightings of does.
I stand corrected after witnessing what I did yesterday.
The future looks good.


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## The Ojibwa (May 30, 2010)

ODNR states that harvest numbers increased by 12.5% on opening day...theres a post on it already. I know that doesn't mean squat, but a very interesting figure indeed. We'll see what happens the rest of the week. Hard to believe an increase over 10% would be possible if the population were low...I know I know, weather, hunting presure, etc. have a big role in it but.........................


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

The Ojibwa said:


> ODNR states that harvest numbers increased by 12.5% on opening day...theres a post on it already. I know that doesn't mean squat, but a very interesting figure indeed. We'll see what happens the rest of the week. Hard to believe an increase over 10% would be possible if the population were low...I know I know, weather, hunting presure, etc. have a big role in it but.........................


my point exactly


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## crappiehunter18 (Apr 25, 2010)

As a few others have already said i believe a lot is having to do the acorns. I have been seeing more deer than last year actually in marion and delaware counties. The deer just won't move on the same trails as normal since they have so much food in the acorns and another thing is the crops came off early so they have already cleaned up the crop fields so they are going to their next favorite food source, the acorns. I have seen and heard a lot more coyotes this year though too. I saw in a magazine the early bow season kill was down a few thousand from last year so theres more people not seeing as many i guess too.


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

Opening day numbers were up by over 12% but overall numbers are down.

State wide numbers down: 10,191 (114,633 to 104,442) from last year. Here in Jefferson County down: 586 (2699 to 2113).

It may not seem to be much of a difference but they are down in all counties that have been at the top of the harvest numbers. Including Tuscarawas: 388 (5901-5513).

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/New...rawas-County-Leads-2010-Deer-gun-Harvest.aspx

I have only hunted close to home in Jefferson County and can't speak for anywhere else but numbers don't lie and neither do my eyes.

I believe around here there are allot of potential reasons: between the active strip mining (for coal), gas well drilling, logging,the increased population of coyotes and the over harvesting of doe. I guess any or all in combination has made a big difference (at least around here).


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

The numbers of deer sightings on my property this year has also been like so many others. I know there are still deer around but I am pretty confident in saying that in my area there are not as many as there were 5-6 years ago. I am not saying it is down to an alarming number. Personally I like it right where it is now but my fear is that it will continue to decline in my area. The main reason I feel that way is not because of the hunters but because of the damage permit impact. I think the numbers will decline slightly for the hunters' harvest if the population begins to go down but as long as the farmers are given the damage permit tags they will continue to fill that same number. If there are deer around their farms it is not really that hard for them to kill plenty of them in the spring/summer using rifle and taking advantage of their predictability at that time of the year. Not to mention that some of the guys take them by spotlight. In my opinion I don't believe Knox county has a real good control on the damage tag aspect. It has always been too easy for farmers to get more if they ask for them. Last year there were a reported 1169 killed in Knox county alone. Think about that one for just a bit. That number exceeds the complete hunter harvest in many counties. And it accounts for over 11% of the total damage permit kills for the entire state. You can't convince me that Knox county has that many more deer than all the other counties when their hunter harvest amounted to less than 3% of the state's total.

I hope that the DNR has the foresight to back off on the number of damage permits handed out before they go changing the hunter limits.


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## Seaturd (Apr 14, 2004)

From Div. of Wildlife website:

_COLUMBUS, OH - Ohio hunters took 104,442 white-tailed deer during the state's popular, week-long deer-gun season, which ran November 29 through December 5, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife. In 2009, hunters killed a preliminary total of 114,633 deer during the same time period. 

Counties reporting the highest numbers of deer brought to Ohio check stations last week included Tuscarawas-5,513, Harrison-3,721, Guernsey-3,455, Licking-3,351, Coshocton-3,320, Washington-2,935, Knox-2,843, Holmes-2,800, Muskingum-2,447 and Athens-2,395.

A total of 163,362 deer have been harvested so far this season when combining the adult and youth gun seasons, early muzzleloader season, and the first six weeks of the archery season. That compares to a total of 178,397 killed last year during the same time period. Hunters took a record total of 261,314 deer during all of last year's hunting seasons. _


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## lg_mouth (Jun 7, 2004)

To me, that is a significant number of deer. 10,000 less for gun week and 15,000 less for the year is nothing to ignore. 

I also seriously doubt there will be 90,000 more deer killed by season's end, so the numbers will more than likely be down conisderably from last year.

Lg_mouth


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

lg_mouth said:


> To me, that is a significant number of deer. 10,000 less for gun week and 15,000 less for the year is nothing to ignore.
> 
> I also seriously doubt there will be 90,000 more deer killed by season's end, so the numbers will more than likely be down conisderably from last year.
> 
> Lg_mouth


What we all need to keep in mind though is that the last couple of seasons were record numbers on the harvest. At some point it will have to stop climbing. Last year the bonus gun week and the late-season muzzleloader took around 45,000 deer. Add a few more archery kills in and it was probably around 50,000. If they are anywhere close to that the number for this year will end up some where in the 210,000 range. While that is way off last year's number it is right in line with 2005. Just a few years prior to that we were struggling to get to 160-170,000. So I don't think it is time to paint doom and gloom on it although I would not like to see a continual downturn. It just may indicate that they were able to start to control the numbers a bit. In recent years no amount of increase in limits seemed to have a controlling impact.

I would still like to see some of the damage tag program revisited to see if they could do a better job of incorporating some of that in to the hunters' harvest so as to benefit someone other than the local coyote and scavenger population. In the last couple of days I have spoken to two different individuals who stated that the numbers of deer were way down where they were hunting and each were hunting right next to farmers who were getting a ton of damage tags. The stories that come from those farms is disheartening when you hear them mention that the deer are just simply left in the fields. The state has the subsidized food program in place now to utilize the resource for a great cause.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Here is the detailed deer report from last year from the ODNR site for anyone interested. This year's report of course will not be complete until early in 2011 once the season finishes.

http://passthrough.fw-notify.net/download/441602/http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub304.pdf


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

Don't we have this thread every year! 
Some guys girlfriend spills perfume on his boots. He hunts for a week and doesn't see anything. He then proceeds to jump to the conclusion that coyotes are eating all the deer. The same coyotes that I've been shooting since the mid-1980's.

I drive I-70 from Columbus to St. C. pretty regularly. This Oct.-Nov was brutal for deer-vehicle accidents. I must have seen 20 per trip. Numbers are definetly not down along that stretch.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Muskarp said:


> Don't we have this thread every year!
> Some guys girlfriend spills perfume on his boots. He hunts for a week and doesn't see anything. He then proceeds to jump to the conclusion that coyotes are eating all the deer. The same coyotes that I've been shooting since the mid-1980's.
> 
> I drive I-70 from Columbus to St. C. pretty regularly. This Oct.-Nov was brutal for deer-vehicle accidents. I must have seen 20 per trip. Numbers are definetly not down along that stretch.


I know some of these guys posting on this thread well enough to say that they are not inexperienced and disgruntled hunters looking to find reason for their failures. If the season's numbers finish out the way they are headed I think that is a pretty good correlation to their stories. I don't see the situation as bleak as some paint it but to me it seems evident that there may be a few less deer statewide than in the past few years, although nothing to get alarmed about. I am sure the ODNR will keep a handle on the situation and adjust accordingly. The difficult thing about statewide regulations (or 3 zones in our case) is that it really makes it difficult for the ODNR to distribute the harvest evenly across all areas. There will always be those who feel that their area is hurting and maybe in some ways it is. But the ODNR can do nothing to address that other can control the number for the entire zone. I know there are areas of Knox county that has a LOT of deer running around but there are also a few areas that have been hit extremely hard with the damage permits. When a single farm is given 75-100 tags what do you think that will do to the population in that area? My only real concern at this point is that they recognize this and start giving some of those deer back to the hunters if they are leaving tags unfilled. For the state that is a win-win situation. The damage permits are free whereas hunters buy their unless on a landowner's tag. They keep more revenue for the state and keep hunters happy. More meat goes to human consumption and less to scavengers in the field.

I have also heard the coyote claim many times and I don't rally buy in to that one much. Yeah, they can kill a deer at times but I am thinking that their primary food source is smaller game. There are a few coyotes in my area but I can not recall finding a deer on my property dead in a time other than deer season where I suspected coyotes as the culprit.


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## Bonemann (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm not sure if lower numbers of deer is good or bad !?! I would be alright with seeing less but better deer.

According to the experts it's a good thing. Lower numbers means that there will be more to eat and the size (of the deer) and health (of the heard) will benefit. Less doe will mean that more quality bucks will be able to pass on their better genes. We will see !!

Here's a link to the 2006-07 season summary and there are some interesting facts about the ODNR's mission and a table of deer permits from 1900 to 2006 along with other interesting facts.

http://dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub304_07.pdf


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Perhaps the urban areas may show an affect on the deer's health with higher numbers but I really can't say that I have seen an effect on their health in my area. They all seem to be very healthy and the body weights are very good. Every year there are monster bucks killed so it does not seem to be showing up there either. Obviously their is a carrying capacity of land but it seems to me that in most areas we are not exceeding it. I am not advocating that the herd be allowed to increase. I think where we are is not an unhealthy number. I would be happy with the numbers to stay the way they are currently.


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## lg_mouth (Jun 7, 2004)

.. Muskarp is still seeing deer and shooting coyotes! 

I have been talking to every hunter I come into contact with and 90% are stating the same thing, they are not seeing the numbers of deer. Properties that would push out 30 plus deer on drives are producing single digits or nothing at all. Fields that were once full of deer are empty. Hunters that have never seen a coyote chase a deer have witnessed at least one chase this year.

I think it is a perfect storm of mast crops, liberal bag limits, poaching and coyotes. Oh yeah, and my wife's bottle of perfume that I drown my hunting clothes in!

lg_mouth


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

lg_mouth said:


> .. Muskarp is still seeing deer and shooting coyotes!
> 
> I have been talking to every hunter I come into contact with and 90% are stating the same thing, they are not seeing the numbers of deer. Properties that would push out 30 plus deer on drives are producing single digits or nothing at all. Fields that were once full of deer are empty. Hunters that have never seen a coyote chase a deer have witnessed at least one chase this year.
> 
> ...


Gey! I guess the sky really is falling!


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## ohiogary (Dec 14, 2006)

Maybe instead of the crop damage permits being given out, how about allowing more hunters to hunt the area during the season to cut down on the over populated farms. The state would gain money for the tags, instead of just having the deer killed.


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## BigV (Nov 11, 2004)

Muskarp said:


> I guess the sky really is falling!


I think your right, the sky IS falling...

I saw plenty of deer in Miegs County and my son and I harvested 6 between the two of us. A good friend of mine who also hunted Miegs County got 2 and passed on a bunch opening day. He then went to Carrol County and his daughter harvested 2 on Saturday and they saw many more. 

I am NOT seeing low numbers...


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## Darwin (Apr 12, 2004)

Low numbers? No. Less than I have seen in the past few years? Yes. I am not sure what the reason for it is.....
As far as coyotes go, yes they do take thier fair share of deer. Young fawns, older deer in declining health and many, many deer that are injured during hunting season. I'm not going to say that a coyote won't go after a deer in good health. You just don't say a definative yes/no when it comes to nature.


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## lg_mouth (Jun 7, 2004)

By calling me gay and not addressing any of my argument, I think it is safe to assume one of two things, you are either still in jr. high and think that is a good "comeback" or you are an adult who is intellectually uncapable of making a good argument.
Big V, congrats on killing that many deer in Meigs County. I never said there were not deer here to kill, I said the numbers are low and the statistics speak for themselves. From those I have talked to, your experience was not the norm this year.

Lg_Mouth


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## ramfan (May 6, 2008)

lg_mouth, I think he miss typed his word, meaning to spell "GUY". I haven't seen as many this year as in the past.But I changed my tactics to try different approaches. Also took walks after hunting and found really thick stuff used as bedding areas, yes I know the thicker the better.In Southern Ohio I believe that taking (6) is alot. And the Amish shot about anything, yes I have witnessed it personally(fawn), it bothered me alot.But nature also takes its toll on wildlife..................................So just get back out there and have some patience and good things will happen for you. BE SAFE:!


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

I think those crop damage tags are a bunch of BS and a disgrace to the animal. To allow a farmer to shoot the deer in the gut and let them run off and die is immoral and a crime. Farmers should only get those tags if they allow hunters to fill them and can prove the animals are hurting their livelyhood(crops). Hunting pressure on that farm will limit their feasting time and reduce the numbers. Unfortunately deer will keep coming for MILES as long as that is their primary food source. I've seen crop damage tags issued to farmers where there was NO CROPS with the exception of some Alfalfa to make hay and feed the cows. That's my 2 cents.


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

jrsfish said:


> I"ll guarntee you the deer harvest numbers will not be down this year,The ODNR wont let that happen,its strictly a money game, bigger harvest numbers,more tags sold. How can anyone beleive the numbers anyway. Just like the walleye problem,thell never do anything that will reduce license sales.


How's that gurantee working out for you?

The numbers are down. 5 years ago the bag limit in my county was 2 deer. This year it is 6 and the harvest is down. If it was still 2 deer I would presume the harvest for this county would be quite a bit lower. I know, it's 2 or 3 percent that harvest more than 2 deer, but after 5 straight years of this excessive bag limits, the population is down. I guess that is what the ODNR wanted though.


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

lg_mouth said:


> By calling me gay and not addressing any of my argument, I think it is safe to assume one of two things, you are either still in Jr. high and think that is a good "comeback" or you are an adult who is intellectually uncapable (incapable)of making a good argument.
> 
> Lg_Mouth


I did misspell. Should have been Gee! But apparently you jumped to your conclusion about my comment just like you jumped to your conclusions about deer numbers. (And I'm the one in Jr. high. Huh!)
OK I'll address your comment about the harvest being down 10k.
Numbers fluctuate. Habitat changes. Conditions change. It's just like fishing. You don't have the best trip ever every trip out. Obviously numbers need to start coming back down at some point. They were at all time highs. Yet the habitat they need is disappearing everyday. Along with much of the hunting opportunity that went along with it. I'm pretty sure there will still be deer in Ohio after this season. But the problem we have here with the internet is if a couple guys have a less than perfect season they think something is wrong and start pointing fingers. Anybody that has hunted more that three seasons is going to experience good years and bad. Weather and available food really impact a deers activity. I know where I hunt there is a ton of food available. The deer will not move. They don't want to die! And all the hunters around me never get out of their stands, thus the deer stay bedded until I get bored and go find them. They have been there all along, just nobody is willing to push them to someone else.

On a side note: the crop damage tags are BS. I hope the states new farmer/ hunter hook-up line is the predecessor of doing away with the current system. Farmers (and church groups) get enough subsidies and tax breaks. Time to start sharing!


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I really don't mind that the the number went down a bit from last year. As stated last year was a record number. We can't just keep setting record numbers every year. A 10% decline is acceptable but if it continues to decline in numbers close to that then it is time to get concerned. There seems to be a lot of folks that want to jump on others implying that they know nothing about the area they are hunting or that they are incapable hunters because they make statements that the numbers are down. I will still stand by the comment I made about the population on and around my property. It is down from what it was a few years ago. I feel that I am much more qualified to make that statement than guys who have never stepped foot on my place let alone probably the county I live in. And I am not making that statement because we have not gotten any deer. We have taken 3 mature does. I have not seen any nice bucks this year. My oldest boy has seen a couple but no shots. I am done taking does for the year. We will still be shopping for a keeper buck though.

My biggest concern still remains with the damage permits. I hope that they manage them as proactively as they do the hunters' limits.


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

You guys complaining about the numbers being low,,,,I think I have it figured out......One of them sent out a deer gram and they all came to my small property in the middle of Newark,eating everything in their path from rose bushes,garden goodies,to lilac bushes that would have bloomed the first time next year,,,,it's now a foot tall.Come & take em back!


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I cover 17 counties for work and have talked to many customers who state that the hunters were way down this year. Less hunters... less deer shot. On my property I saw more deer in the 2 gun hunts I had this year than I did last year. During bow hunts my deer count has been way up. I hunt all wooded areas though. I have seen more yotes this year and plan to work on that problem soon!


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## joejack (Nov 25, 2010)

I also believe deer numbers are down in my area. This is evident from the lower kill numbers released by ODOW. Early bow season, gun week, and youth season have all seen lower kills. You can't sustain record kills while continuing to issue liberal doe tags. I believe the doe tags are the main culprit more than crop damage permits or coyotes. Remember, when you kill a mature doe that has been bred, you are really killing three deer. If the total annual kill is down significantly maybe it will at least lay to rest the asinine idea of having a seven day gun season that starts the Saturday after Thanksgiving.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

joejack said:


> I also believe deer numbers are down in my area. This is evident from the lower kill numbers released by ODOW. Early bow season, gun week, and youth season have all seen lower kills. You can't sustain record kills while continuing to issue liberal doe tags. I believe the doe tags are the main culprit more than crop damage permits or coyotes. Remember, when you kill a mature doe that has been bred, you are really killing three deer. If the total annual kill is down significantly maybe it will at least lay to rest the asinine idea of having a seven day gun season that starts the Saturday after Thanksgiving.


The damage tags accomplish the same exact goal as the doe tags. The damage tags are for antlerless deer (in most cases) so yes the 1,100+ in Knox county this last season really accounted for more than 3,000 deer most likely.


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## lg_mouth (Jun 7, 2004)

I believe if you read this post, the numbers of guys seeing less deer is greater than the guys, like yourself, who are seeing just as many or more. The kill numbers are down 15,000 so far this year (numbers fluctuate, DOWN!). Numerous guys who have no idea how to even use the internet and have been hunting for a little longer than three years, more like three decades, are not seeing the amount of deer they have in the past. 

They also aren't lazy stand setters like you assume they are. As I stated in an earlier post, these are guys driving deer whom, in the past, have pushed 30 deer out of spot, and this year little or nothing. 

I have given you numbers and personal experiences from many hunters I have talked to and on this post. You have given me nothing but your opinion, which doesn't seem to be holding much water. I am not saying there are no deer in Ohio, like you are trying to make it sound like I am. I am saying deer numbers are lower, prove to me they aren't. 

Yes, I did misspell "incapable", but there is little wiggle room in what I was meaning. You misspelled "gee" with "gey", which could be easily misinterpreted. 

Lg_mouth


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I saw many less deer this season while hunting, but I also didn't spend nearly as much time afield as usual.

I do a lot of driving around central and sw ohio for work (over 30K miles annually) and I always take backroads whenever possible. I saw fewer deer in the early part of the season. I attributed that to the bumper acorn crop - figured they weren't out in the fields when they had all those acorns to eat. But, I have to say I saw just as many if not more once Nov rolled in and the deer got moving.

I am willing to listen to other hunters and I have to believe there are fewer deer. However, in most areas of the state there are more than plenty. If you've hunted for awhile you can remember not too long ago we didn't have nearly the amount of deer. Heck, the season went from buck only to either sex to a special draw for a second antlerless tag to what we have now. Maybe I am different, but I don't need to see large numbers of deer each time out. When I started bow hunting it wasn't uncommon to hunt without seeing deer many times out. 

I agree we should monitor the situation - I don't think any of us want to see the herd cut back to the days of a drawing for a second tag, etc. But, at the same time you have to realize there really were too many deer statewide for the various parties of interest the last 5 years or so. The herd isn't managed simply for hunters...if that were the case we could carry more deer than we do now. I understand there are isolated areas that perhaps don't have many deer. However, most areas of the state still have plenty....enough that the ODNR will continue to try to lower the number for now. And frankly I don't see the big knee jerk reaction from hunters....if the population gets on the low side it takes only a season or two of revised/reduced bag limits and whola - deer #'s are up. ODNR has proven they can manage the numbers up and down through legislation. And responsible landowners/hunters help manage the numbers too by making responsible harvest choices.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> I saw many less deer this season while hunting, but I also didn't spend nearly as much time afield as usual.
> 
> I do a lot of driving around central and sw ohio for work (over 30K miles annually) and I always take backroads whenever possible. I saw fewer deer in the early part of the season. I attributed that to the bumper acorn crop - figured they weren't out in the fields when they had all those acorns to eat. But, I have to say I saw just as many if not more once Nov rolled in and the deer got moving.
> 
> ...


Well said!! The question was asked if we were seeing fewer deer and many have answered yes by me and many others. That does not imply that all who are seeing fewer are concerned. I had mentioned it somewhere along the way that I was quite confident that there are fewer in my area but that I am comfortable with the number. I don't really want to see that number shrink in my area and that was my only real concern. I ant to be able to harvest 3-4 deer (between me and my boys) each year without worrying that I am overdoing it. I am hunting on 56 acres so I don't think that is too much to ask. But if the numbers do indeed continue to decrease somewhat I will do what I feel is appropriate. I do really think the DNR has a pretty good grasp on the population numbers for the entire state and that they will act accordingly. I just don't like the concentrated removal that occurs in my county with the damage permits.


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

bkr43050,
If your shooting nothing but mature does on 56 acres your numbers are going to go down. The way most see it your already a possible minus 9 deer for next season. And you guys still have some season left.



> I ant to be able to harvest 3-4 deer (between me and my boys) each year without worrying that I am overdoing it.
> 
> We have taken 3 mature does.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Muskarp said:


> bkr43050,
> If your shooting nothing but mature does on 56 acres your numbers are going to go down. The way most see it your already a possible minus 9 deer for next season. And you guys still have some season left.


Yes we do still have some season left but I have already made the decision to take no more does.

I have taken 3 does in years past and have not seen a negative impact until recent years. If I am seeing at least 10-12 antlerless deer still at the end of the week then that tells me that there are more than enough does left to carry on the herd. Last year was only 1 button buck which sways my numbers the other way.


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## BigV (Nov 11, 2004)

Muskarp said:


> bkr43050,
> If your shooting nothing but mature does on 56 acres your numbers are going to go down. The way most see it your already a possible minus 9 deer for next season. And you guys still have some season left.


Heres the way I figure it. According to statistics, 56 acres can hold an average of 11.2 deer. If of those 11.2 deer, 70% are doe and of those 70% ½ are mature does and can have 2 offspring and the remaining doe are yearlings capable of producing 1 offspring per year then the annual population would increase by 15.68 deer per year. So, taking 3-4 deer per year off 56 acres should theoretically still show and annual increase to the population by around 11 to 12 deer.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

BigV said:


> Heres the way I figure it. According to statistics, 56 acres can hold an average of 11.2 deer. If of those 11.2 deer, 70% are doe and of those 70% ½ are mature does and can have 2 offspring and the remaining doe are yearlings capable of producing 1 offspring per year then the annual population would increase by 15.68 deer per year. So, taking 3-4 deer per year off 56 acres should theoretically still show and annual increase to the population by around 11 to 12 deer.


I was going to look up the numbers for carrying capacity but you beat me to it. I am not sure what the actual numbers are on our place but I would have to think they are somewhat in line with the averages. At any rate I know that 3 does total is not going to result in a negative impact to the herd. Your numbers clearly support that.


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

First off. Without assessing the available habitat and surrounding properties throwing out a carrying capacity that high is awfully presumptuous. 
Second. With at least three hunters on a 56 acre property (you did not state if it was all woods or mixed cover or crops) there are going to be a good number of deer driven off to the adjacent properties. Of which a few probably do not adhere to your management practices.


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## Muskarp (Feb 5, 2007)

BigV said:


> Here&#8217;s the way I figure it. According to statistics, 56 acres can hold an average of 11.2 deer. If of those 11.2 deer, 70% are doe and of those 70% ½ are mature does and can have 2 offspring and the remaining doe are yearling's capable of producing 1 offspring per year then the annual population would increase by 15.68 deer per year. So,&#8230; taking 3-4 deer per year off 56 acres should theoretically still show and annual increase to the population by around 11 to 12 deer.


11.2
70%doe=8 rounding up
4 mature + 8 offspring
4 yearling + 4 offspring
3 males per your ideal "carrying capacity"
minus 3 mature does and the twins each carry=14 deer left at the end of the season. We started with 11.2 remember? Actually for this test it was 11. That's only an increase of 3! And that's in your "ideal" carrying capacity world and if no more are harvested on this property or driven off to adjoining properties. Just saying!

P.S. That carrying capacity would mean over 131 deer per square mile. Where did you find those numbers?


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## ohiogary (Dec 14, 2006)

No matter how much calculation is done, do you think the herd is going to remain the same on a 56 acre piece of ground. I only have 35 acres with a variety of 3-4 acre food plots. A total deer managed area. On our property we do not shoot does, large mature bucks only, let the young bucks walk. So generally I have a pretty good idea of whats going on all thru the season. Ive counted as high as 14 deer in a herd a few years ago, for the past couple years, seems like the numbers are down. During rut I have bucks come to our property that I have never seen before, and times when you are lucky to see a doe or two. They move on and off our property all thru the year. Our biggest problem we have are neigboring properties, that practice if its brown its down, inwhich we have no control over. How many hunters do you know that make a statement in the fall Ive got to do something with the deer meat I have in the freezer from the previous year. How can a doe protect her fawn from a pack of coyotes.....in my area the coyotes are moving into the neighbor hoods looking for food. Id like to see the price of a coyote hide go up to a 100.00 a pelt and more people would be trapping and hunting these varmints. My son and I watched a young doe being persued by two coyotes while bow hunting this fall. We have a home on a 4 acre track of land that borders our small farm. Seems like when its time for the does to start having fawns they are hanging closer to our house, kind of like safety from something.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Muskarp said:


> First off. Without assessing the available habitat and surrounding properties throwing out a carrying capacity that high is awfully presumptuous.
> Second. With at least three hunters on a 56 acre property (you did not state if it was all woods or mixed cover or crops) there are going to be a good number of deer driven off to the adjacent properties. Of which a few probably do not adhere to your management practices.


Probably no more than are driven ON to our property in that same time.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

The more that I am think about BigV's numbers the more I have to agree with Muskarp that they are probably high, at least in my area. But I still stand by the belief that me taking 3 mature does from my place will not hurt the population that much. We have been taking 2-3 deer a lot of years and still have plenty to go around. The only thing different about this year is that all 3 have been does. Normally at least 1-2 bucks are taken. There are no worries on my part because if I go in to next season with the feeling that the numbers are hurting then I will choose to back off on the does for a year and they will be back to where they were.

If we continue to have declining harvest numbers in years to come then this conversation will actually have more weight to it but as it is now I believe the deer herd is still at an incredible number.


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

brk:


> I really don't mind that the the number went down a bit from last year. As stated last year was a record number. We can't just keep setting record numbers every year. A 10% decline is acceptable but if it continues to decline in numbers close to that then it is time to get concerned


Brian, I think you've been particularly well-spoken on this matter and I agree with much of what you've said.

Numbers, in general, can be problematic to analyze at times. Analysis based upon what is essentially anecdotal information makes the numbers even tougher to analyze. In other words, we're all basing our analysis on our personal observations, which can vary widely based on literally dozens of variables.

It seems that at least so far, the numbers were down, if I read this thread's info properly. But there are some numbers, which are arguably very important to the equation, that we do not have. For example, do we have more hunters licensed for whitetail this year, or less? Did those hunters, who are repeat hunters, spend more time in the field actually hunting, or less. It must vary yearly, right? If we have 5% less licenses sold would the kill numbers go down by the same? A lot of variables to juggle at once.

You'd figure we'd probably have more guys (and women) hunting than ever, since these are "the good old days" when it comes to hunting. When the hunting is good or great, a lot more people are likely to get out there and participate, that's just human nature. The opposite is also true. Look at Pymatuning 15 years ago. When you could catch numbers of walleye, tons of guys were out there every weekend. Now? Fewer fisherman, because in general, most guys would rather catch 20 normal or smaller fish in a day, than 1 or 2 bigger fish. The success rate is down.

It seems likely to me that the numbers of whitetail tags being sold is probably still growing every year, but I don't know how to confirm that, just a good guess. If I'm right, that would tilt the odds toward higher body counts, right? But that presumes an awful lot, including a rather fixed success rate in the field. See what I mean?

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that these types of things can be very random overall. A coin toss, should yield heads 50% of the time. The fact is it _could_ yield heads 100 times in a row. There is no way of knowing with certainty, even if you know 'the odds.' Examining only the body count for the whitetail season could, at times, lead to distorted conclusions for all of us.

It is a pretty interesting topic though. I've enjoyed reading all the various opinions.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

That is a good point about the number of permits. I looked back at the last 3 year summaries (of course this one is not out yet as it is incomplete). Here is what I found.

2009/10 - 624,908
2008/9 - couldn't find the number but it is somewhere in between 09/10 and 07/08 based on the bar chart.
2007/8 - 578,366
2006/7 - 543,614

Ohio did put about 15% more permits in the mix in 2009/10 than they had back in 2006/7 so that probably played a part. IT will be interesting to see if the permit numbers coincide with the final numbers that come from this season although I think some of that tends to be connected as often times the additional permits are not purchased until one is filled. In other words I don't think many guys will eat tag soup on more than one tag each year whereas it is not uncommon for them to in fact leave one unfilled.

I honestly do not know how my situation plays in to those numbers. I take my deer on landowner's tags so I am not purchasing a deer permit. There are plenty of others who do the same. I don't know if those permit numbers are only paid permits or if they add one in once a landowner deer is checked in. I know that my deer go in to the total harvest count so if they are not adding in a permit for each that we take then that further illustrates that getting a deer should not be considered a given. Taking the numbers as they show would suggest that there were 0.4 deer taken per permit. I have never found any information showing the number of landowner permit deer but if they are not counted in that 624,908 figure then the rate would be much lower. Has anyone else ever seen any data detailing the landowner permits?


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## tcba1987 (Jun 22, 2004)

here in Tuscarawas county there seems to be less deer on most of the properties that i hunt on. But i cant say that the numbers are down everywhere, my dad has a small (2 acre) woods behind his house and has a trail cam up and has got pictures of at least 8-10 different bucks and numerous does !!! One farm i hunt on i saw alot of does but very few bucks this year .........another farm i hunt on i didnt see large numbers of deer but saw mainly bucks ........i think it definitely varies from property to property and that HUNTING PRESSURE has a affect on the number of deer you see !!! 

Most ground that i hunt on i think too many guys are hunting RACKS only and not shooting enough does.


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## Wildlife (Dec 12, 2010)

This my third season in Ohio and I have to tell you, I have seen more deer each season at my hunting locations. I hunt early in the season. I prefer the warmer tempatures. I do not like hunting in the freezing cold weather, I can never get comfortable and enjoy the hunt. Im from upstate N.Y., so all of my younger years up there, I had to deal with it. Here in Ohio, I really enjoy the warmer climate. The fall time is my favorite time to be in the woods. 
I have harvested some really nice quality deer. Each one of my hunting spots has three times the number of deer this season than my first season, and yet I have taken 18 deer combined from these various locations. All on private land. I already have a line on at least three large trophy bucks now and I hope they make it through the rest of this season. I do not believe Ohio has a deer population issue or an issue with the quality of the deer, bucks especially. I do not use trail cameras or anything else like that. Im old school scouting. The passion for me is to track that buck down and bust him when he makes that mistake. Fair game hunting is the only way I hunt, I crave the challenge and it feeds my soul when I come out on top. My family of four eats deer meat all year long. We do not ever purchase beef, and rarely purchase chicken or pork. 
So, if there is a deer population issue, I dont see it out there in the field. Maybe things are different in Northern Ohio, but here in Central Ohio, I have not seen this as an issue.

http://www.bowhuntingohio.com/forum/ohio-brusier-smack-t14550.html

My 15yr. sons first gun hunt this weekend (12/19). He missed his first gun buck 2nd time out that day. I didn't do a very good job doing the video, but he enjoyed it.


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## Angler ss (May 15, 2008)

Just like the Lake Erie eye numbers anglers who where catching limits most times out kept bragging about how the population was fine. Then the ODNR put out a report this spring that said the numbers where way down and might cut the limit back in 2011. There is always someone like Muskarp that caught a limit or seen many deer that just can't agree that the deer numbers are down from past years. The sky is not falling but there is enough guys that have seen phesants die off,duck numbers drop to all time lows and low walleye numbers who want to act now and reduce limits before we are talking about very very low deer numbers are. 
Angler ss.


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