# Guys, Need Help With a Pond...



## iteech

My daughter and her husband just got a place with 5 acres and it has a little natural pond on it--it's tiny, maybe a half-or-quarter acre or so, but it's full of bullrushes and looks fishy to me. It's very old--they guy said it was there when he bought it 55 years ago, and he said it's got fish in it but he has no idea what or how many--it's down from the drought a bit, too. He swears it's 10 feet deep in the middle but I don't know how. OK here's the questions--it has a bright green growth on top--very thin, though. How do we get rid of the green stuff? And how will we know what's in it? Of course we could fish it, but if it's not very deep and if the water is cold like it is now, I doubt we'd get much. Would it be wise to run a little trot line across it? I was thinking maybe get rid of the green stuff, have someone come out and shock it for us?? I just don't know--I'm stumped. What do we do from here, if we want it to be a good little bass hole for us? Should we wait till next spring to do anything? Does anyone know where to go for help and advice on this? Maybe the extension service would come out and help us? If anyone could give some advice or help, I would appreciate it so much, because I'm about to BUST to get this thing to a nice fishing hole!!!


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## Bluebuster6912

My neighbor had the same problem awhile back His pond was a acre we put 
8 grass carp in it. Cleared it up pretty nicely. If you do this you might want 
to wait till spring to put them in. Could get some Koi carp they would be pretty to look at in a little pond


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## bkr43050

You could try using a large seine and net the shallows. Of course that would require a couple of boats/canoes to do it. It may not yield anything large but you never know. It will also tell you whether you have any bait fish present.

As far as the green surface it could be one of a few types of algae but it seems to me that it should be died off by now for the winter. If it is just on the surface I wouldn't get too worried about removing it yet as it will not cause many problems. The worst algae is the filamentous slimy type. If that gets thick it can be a real problem for the pond. But some weed growth is good for the pond overall. I don't think you are going to know the extent of the weed growth until next year when the weeds start to grow back up again.

Personally I would not opt to set any trot lines unless I was thinking of removing some fish as the trot lines can result in deep hooked fish that may die as a result. I would just give it a few shots of fishing to see what happens. It is not too late to catch any fish in it for the year. They all have to eat. It is just that some species get a bit more inactive as the water temps get really low and the surface is nearing freezing. I think we have a month or so for that.


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## hornswaggled

sounds like duck weed to me. Go to www.atac.com they can provide all the help that you need.


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## Sleprock

you could call lakedoctors or some other type of place, or yall could put a fountain in it, look nice agitate the surface,


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## sam kegg

well not a pro at this but my grandfathers pond was very small!!! i mean tiny. what i did was dug out an over spill. about 2 ft deep.it worked becuz there was and area for it to run too .the pond was on a hill side and was used for cattle ,when the water over flowed it draged the green slime down with it. also grass carp!!! very good for a small pond, i herd people say cat fish but in a small pond they will over take the food source. well like i said im no pro!!! but it worked for me, and now its a nice lil honey hole for pan fish and bass. the over flow has been there for 4 years and is still working great, hope it helps!!!!!!:B


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## Fishman

Could be a handful of things like duckweed (small floating leaves), watermeal (green sand is the best way to describe it), or microcystis (extremely small green particles). The first two are technically plants, and can be controlled with a handfull of aquaticlly licensed herbacides, the latter on the other hand is a type of algae and obviously ya need a algacide for. I recommend mailing a sample to the company I work for, Jones Fish Hatcheries, Inc down in Cincinnati. This is to make sure it's properly identified before you choose a course of action, since obviously you don't want to invest money in chemistry or fish(amur) that arn't going to do the job. I will say this, depending on how you want to go about controlling duckweed or watermeal it can be very expensive. Microcystis on the other hand is very easy to control. My concern is the age of the lake, which means a higher nutrient load and therefore probably means you have duckweed and/or watermeal.

It is true, that grass carp(amur) can be used to control things like duckweed, but only if stocked in high densities and for a very small ammount of time since as the fish grows it's gill rakers spread further apart thus reducing the effectiveness of them as they eat the stuff, or try to I should say, it just slips through their gills. 

This is duckweed:









Watermeal:









Mircrocystis










Hope this helps


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## bkr43050

Great job on the pictures and descriptions Fishman!! I have heard that the amurs were not more effective when they were younger but I didn't know why. That is interesting.


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## eyecrazy

I second that about Jones Hatcheries. I have about a 4-5 acre pond on my property. They have provided a wealth of help for me. I have bottom based aeration in my pond to keep the water "mixed". I shut it down for the winter about 2-3 weeks ago,& I have had the same problem ever since. Mine is Duckweed. I am not going to do anything about it until spring. It is really heavy today after all the rain we got last night. With Duckweed,it is easy to fish through it,just a thin layer on the surface. But it is very unsightly..... Steve


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## iteech

This gives me a wonderful place to start--I will access all the info sources y'all mentioned--what a great help. From the pictures, I can definitely tell you it is *watermeal*. It seems easy to remove--we were thinking of just netting it out, if we could figure out a way to do that. I WILL turn it into a nice little fishing hole, I promise--no matter what I have to do. They don't want us on the land till my daughter and her husband take it over the end of this month, but I'm going to sneak on it anyway (it's unoccupied) and try to fish it with several baits this weekend, and see what I come up with. I still think it could not be 10 feet deep anywhere, but the previous owner swears to it. I'll get samples and send them off for advice on what chemicals to use, if any. Also I need to know how to put more water in it--it obviously will hold 1/3 more than it's got in it, I see the water line. This is probably a goofy question, but could we just run a hose and fill it up more?? (Haven't seen it since our hard rain--maybe that did the trick). I'll get pictures of it and post for ya'll to see. Thanks--you guys ROCK.


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## 1badmthrfisher

i dont know if I would do that or not.... there is chlorine in that water and if you are adding 33 percent more water to the pond...that might be a problem.....


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## bkr43050

I don't think you will want to see the bill on running a pump to fill a pond. It is probably most likely low due to the dry summer and just has not recovered yet. If it is not that then it could be a leak somewhere and you may never see it go higher. At any rate I would not suggest running the water to it at this point. If you don't have farm ground or chemically treated lawns draining in you could perhaps divert some water to the pond by some landscape changes. Anything running down the downspouts from the house could be diverted that way as well if it is not a major undertaking. That could help but again before I put any money into it I think I would want to know that the pond does not have a leak in the bottom somewhere.


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## Fishman

I hear that questioned asked a lot, honestly the bottomline is your pocketbook. I'de really just recommend letting mother nature do her thing as far as filling your pond goes. Let's say you have 6 foot of water in it, in SW Ohio that's more than enough water to sustain your fish through the winter. I seriously wouldn't sweat it. 

I've heard numbers before, and don't quote me on this - but 1" of water dispearsed over an acre is roughly 30,000 gallons of water. Say the pond is a 1/4 acre, to bring it up an inch (not including what you'll loose from the ground soaking it up) is about 75,000 gallons per inch. Do the math, it'll take a TON of H20! 

If it is indeed watermeal that you have, there are many solutions to controlling it. Amur hardly work to control it, minimally at best. The stuff is so small it'll just pass through their rakers. Mechanically trying to remove it(netting it ect) is very complicated since any plant material that you miss quickly multiplys and fills in the areas you devoided of it. The nutrients is still there, so the plants will come back unquestionably. Chemicals that burn it, like Reward, work very well, but much like removing it mechanically any plant that's hiding in a nook or cranny that you miss with the chemical grows and spread's it all over again. Another danger of killing that much water meal at once, expecially with a product like Reward is the risk of killing fish from Oxygen depletion. The best chemical hands down, no questions asked, is a product called Sonar. It works on a conentration basis so no water meal is safe (and many other herbaceous plants for that matter) It effectivly controls watermeal for about a year and a half to two years. Provided that no waterfoul or careless people reintroduce the stuff you could potentially be watermeal free for an unknown ammount of time there after. To top it off Sonar is very slow acting since it's systemic, unlike Reward that just burns the heck out of the stuff in a matter of 15 minutes, so the risk of a fish kill is extremely unlikley. The "sticker shock" is the hardest hurdle to get over however, a quart runs something like 500 bucks (not a quote I think it's actually cheaper) but for a 1/4 acre pond you'de probably need a pint tops. A little bit of the stuff goes a long way. But I suppose if ya do the math over the long term of using a product like Reward that runs about $150 a gallon and something you'll be using repeatedly to kill it back to makes it tolerable to shell out the initial expense for Sonar, which will more than likely be a one time deal.

The downfall is this though, since you've killed the watermeal, now other plants, primarily filamentous algae may take its place. Sonar is not harmful in the slighest to algaes of any form. Thankfully algae is very easy to kill and very inexpensive to kill with products like Cutrine Plus.

My opinion if you want to do it "right?"

1. Stock some grass carp. 
2. Install a diffused aeration system, electric preferably if there is a power source there. This will help reduce a lot of the nutrients in your pond that your watermeal is thriving on. 
3. Then make a Sonar application in the Spring after all the bulk of the heavy rains are over. This is to ensure ya keep as much of the chemistry in the pond as possible.
4. Spot treat any algae that pops up along the way.
5. Enjoy your pond 

Sorry if this all sounds sales pitchy, just trying to throw in my 2 cents  

Hope it helps!


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## iteech

all this info is invaluable--I told my daughter we'd get all the answers we needed right here--and she didn't believe me! I've printed off everything and we are going to use it all, also we will access the sites and phone #'s to learn as much as possible. So much excitement over this little bitty pond...but the thought of having our OWN fishing site is intoxicating, to say the least--both of us have dreamed of this for decades, literally. We don't have much money, but we'll do what's necessary to make it a sweet little hole. I am so excited. I forgot about the high chlorine content in city water--it would kill them I bet. Also the amount needed to fill this little pond to the water line would cost us $1000 at least--not a good idea. And I also forgot that trot lines kill fish--I haven't used one since I was a child. If the fish population is already good and not suffering, we may just leave it as is--the watermeal is mostly unpleasing visually, I guess. I'm fishing it this weekend--I'll post pics and what I catch, if anything. I am so thankful to all of you who took your time to help me. Wish me luck, and tight lines, y'all!


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## WalleyeJones

I had a pond dug this year. It's also small, but 10' deep. I needed the dirt to bury a large culvert project. Now the culvert empties into the pond. I've begun the process of stocking it. I think I'll enjoy stocking it more than fishing in it.

FYI, I checked with the ODNR and it is legal to take fish out of a public lake and put in your pond. You're just not supposed to transfer fish from one public lake to another. And, of course, you still have to obey daily bag limits.


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## Bass_Hawg

I read someone mentioned Sonar and I remember watching a video about this specific product






Not saying it is bad or good to use just more information that is out there for you to make your decision.


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## Stauff

Sonar may seem to be the most expensive, but in the long run, it's far more cost effective. I went through the duckweed problems a few years ago. Paid a guy too much for his "expertise" and bags of bacteria that had my pond in worse condition at the end of the season. I tried the "less expensive" alternates at first and finally went the Sonar route. It was the only product that gave satisfactory, long term results. For further maintenance and care hints, check out; www.pondboss.com. Lots of information in their forums. Just keep in mind that the situations in other parts of the country are different than here in the midwest, AND everyone has an opinion - not always correct, though.
Keep it healthy, and you'll enjoy that pond for years to come. There's nothing quite like walking out the back door to fish for a half an hour.


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## Cordon

I know this is a bit off topic, but same category. Does anyone have the link or know the name of the guy who is the expert on making your pond "the best possible bass fishery". He has a book or a web site and he explains how to make your pond/lake a great bass fishery in regards to weeds, rocks, depth, stocking all the good information you need. I have read the information on here in the past but cannot seem to find it now. I have a friend who just bought some property with an acre pond and he is looking for the information.

Thanks!!
Cordon


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## Fishman

The "anti-herbacide" video seems as if it has some underlying motive to me. Sonar doesn't kill all types of vegetation like the guy suggested, but it does kill a broad range of herbacous plants. Sonar works slowly, therefore it doesn't kill fish when used properly. Ask anyone that's used it. Plants arn't the sole contributor of dissolved oxygen to ponds, oxygen exchange occurs naturally at the surface of a lake, even a frog jumping into the pond technically helps the process. Personally I've seen more fish kills caused by excessive vegatation than I have by chemicals. Let's point out a worse case senario, early in the spring you get an excellant plankton bloom and as the water temperatures rise your watermeal begins to cover the entire pond. At that point all sunlight is blocked to the planktonic algaes below begin to die from being unable to photosynthesize. Oxygen levels drop dematically, but it isn't because you suddenly have no plants creating oxygen - *it's from massive ammounts of bacteria breaking down the dead plant matter.* Those bacteria, just like fish, need dissolved oxygen to survive. They're a smaller organism though and therefore require much less oxygen. However there are consideribly more bacteria in a pond than there are fish, and all those bacteria drop the O2 levels to a point deadly to the fish.

Think of all the ponds that have no vegetation what so ever, and have healthy fish populations. Whether they're crystal clear or green as pea soup I would think that the vast majority of oxygen in the pond comes from surface interaction with the atmosphere.

I will say this though, devoiding a pond of plants is a bad idea in terms of fish health. Many insects feed on those plants, and there is the base of the food chain. Adding structure after removing plants is one of the best ways to go. Maintaining a good planktonic algae bloom is far more important than letting native and non-native plants run wild.

As Stauff said, everyone has an opinion in this industry. You could sit 10 biologist down in a room ask a very simply question and get 10 very different answers!


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## Bronzeman

Sodium bentonite clay is used for sealing leaking ponds. Can't tell you much about it because I have never used it, although it was once recomended to me by a assistant city manager here in Xenia when I had a problem with my pond. (My pond is ornamental, rubber lined and the problem was in the piping not the liner). I believe it comes in granular form and it swells to 18 times its volume when activated by water. To get the depth you want you might consider draining it and lining the bottom with this stuff. I'm no expert, just throwing another option at you. Google it for more information.


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## bassattacker

the club i belong to in xenia has a 15 acre lake and a 1-1.5 acre pond, the pond had a problem with water vegetation and for years it was hard to fish it and the fishing wasnt all that great, from what i understand they did they didnt use no chemicals or anything of that sort, they just used a simple pond water fountain, and since putting that in the fishing has gotten better, the vegetation is under control, we now catch blue gills on average of 6"+ and quit a few 6-7lb lm bass have ben caught the past few years from this pond, sometimes the hardest problem can be solved with and easy solution. i agree that not all situations demand the same type of solution, but all the ponds ive fished farm or just recreation that have fountains dont seem to have a problem with vegetation.


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## Stauff

bassattacker said:


> ... not all situations demand the same type of solution, but all the ponds ive fished farm or just recreation that have fountains dont seem to have a problem with vegetation.


Ah, and there lies ONE of the key ingredients to the healthy aquatic environment - OXYGEN. Whether you put up a windmill with a mechanical pump/aerator or install a decorative fountain, the benefits derived from the increased oxygen are huge, especially on smaller ponds. Increased oxygen levels make for more active fish, as well as increasing beneficial bacteria effectiveness. And, the plant life tends to be healthier and less intrusive.


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## iteech

I tried to fish it Friday late, but there was a wind so cold I couldn't stand it, so I only had lines in the water an hour or so--couple bites, but no fish. I did study it though, and I'm more excited than ever. It is almost perfectly round, and is down in a little "bowl", which means most of the runoff on the property will go into it (good). My daughter says no chemicals will ever be used on the land, so no danger to the fish. It WAS a little fuller from the rains, but not much. Almost all the watermeal is gone. I really don't see much else that can be done till spring, but we are going to try and put an aerator-fountain in the middle then, IF the cost is not prohibitive--and see if that does not solve some of the problems. Our very-handy husbands can install it, I assume. So funny, but the guys are like ho-hum about the pond, but me and my daughter are practically about to jump out of our skins. We have a friend who fishes EVERYWHERE and often bags the limit (he's retired and fishes 30 hours a week)--he has agreed to bring any legal bass and gills, live, to the pond for a year or so (for fishing privileges, of course!). It even has cover--there's an old dead tree in it. Middle is about 5-6 feet (I knew it wasn't 10!), but if we get good precip (snow) this winter I think that could/will deepen at least another foot or two. Deer scat SURROUNDS the pond--there must be dozens coming there! As we were leaving, I turned to a sound just in time to see a very large fish roll over near the edge--a carp, I suppose. It was like they were saying "hey we're here, baby--come and get us". Thanks to everyone for your advice, I really appreciate it--you've saved me big bucks with your great expertise. THIS COMING SUMMER I GOT MY OWN FISHING HOLE. WOOHOO.


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## [email protected]

If it was 10' deep 55 years ago it has probably silted in some. The bottom diffuser type aeration as previously described is your best bet and could help break down organics that have settled in over time and provide better aeration than most fountains. Bottom aeration is also much cheaper to run. Windmill aeration doesn't make much sense since you need aeration most when the wind isn't blowing creating wave action. Seining would be a good place to start surveying the existing fish population. If you find unwanted fish such as carp or bullheads you may want to kill off the existing population and start over with stock from a reputable hatchery such as Jones, they'll be able to recommend a stocking strategy to fit your goals.

I started off seining by myself (with a little help from my dog). It wasn't bad.









Later a friend showed up making things easier. Two people was plenty for this 100' seine.

















Here's some pictures illustrating the mixing action of a two airstation bottom diffuser aeration system. You can see the sheets of different densities of water being mixed at the surface.









Here's the compressor I installed. You can pump air over long distances easily and cheaply. Water and electric don't mix either IMO.









The air lines run to the pond in the background









If you decide to go with grass carp, two would be plenty in a half acre or less pond, again IMO and experience. They are pretty limited on what plants they eat, overstocking will take up a lot of biomass for the results you get. You will need to solve your watermeal problem first, chemical elimination is the only effective remedy. For maintenance purposes after the chemical treatment, tilapia are far more effective at controlling filamentous algae (the fuzzy and sometimes floating green slimey stuff) than grass carp and much cheaper than even the copper sulfate algacides. Tilapia can be difficult to obtain though and have to be replaced annually but they are prolific and will provide forage for your predators, growing off the unwanted algae. My tilapia died off about two weeks ago due to the cold temps.

Filamentous Algae before adding tilapia, Spring 2006.









Here it is about a week later. No chemical treatments were applied the rest of the season and I had almost no visible algae. 750 2-3" tilapia with a few larger stocked.









This spring I treated with Cutrine plus about two weeks before adding about 20 tilapia. Again no algae for the rest of the year. Without tilapia I need to treat every 3-6 weeks using Cutrine plus and I have grass carp too.
Here's what they look like









Here's what my water looks like showing the typical amount of algae present throughout the year. Satisfactory by my standards.


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## [email protected]

I had a couple of other thoughts over the weekend. You should not add fish without knowing/evaluating the existing population. Do not add fish from sources other than licensed fish dealers as you could introduce disease, parasites, noxious weeds and possibly unwanted fish and as stated before it's illegal to stock fish from public waters. Bluegill are widely accepted as the forage of choice for small ponds. An easy way to see if your daughter's pond has an adequate crop of young of the year bluegills is to use a minnow trap. Mid May would be a good time to try. I bait mine by suspending fish pellets in cheesecloth. Here is a pic after about 45 minutes in my pond.









Another good rule of thumb to remember is that a well balanced pond can produce enough forage to support 100 lbs. of bass per acre so be extra careful about adding more bass. If your daughter's pond is 1/2 acre then it could support 25 2lb bass, or 10 5lbers. This of course depends on water quality, fertility, supplemental feeding and a bunch of other factors. Most small ponds have problems with too many skinny bass not too few.

Another way is to start hand feeding pellets once the water temps go up to the 50s. Bluegill, catfish and carp readily take to the pellets. Feed around sunset for up to a week in the same spot and observe what comes up to feed. 

Of course non of these methods aren't as fun as a good ol' Zebco and some nightcrawlers.


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## Fishman

Very informative post PondFin, kind of surprised you introduced the hyacinth. Granted it's all died off by now, but in my opinion its unnecessary plant debris at the bottom.

I always enjoy watching pond owners take things to the "next level." Looks like ya have a very enjoyable pond!

Oh, one more thing, why not eat those tilapia!!??


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## [email protected]

Those are good points. The hyacinth was a somewhat failed experiment this year. I was hoping it would form a floating mat that would add cover and structure as well as take up excess nutrients while adding some color. From an aesthetic standpoint water hyacinth in the aquascaping is like a wave petunia in your landscaping. You don't have to worry about dividing and managing it, just replace it yearly. The less invasive lilies are expensive and my grass carp uprooted the two I tried to grow. My plan was to remove and compost the water hyacinth once the frost killed it but I haven't gotten around to it yet. It rooted into the bank and ended up beached for most of the season due to the dry weather. On the plus side my wife liked the flowers and the frogs liked the cover it provided as the water receded. I am undecided whether I'll plant it again next year.

















I haven't eaten any of the tilapia from my pond yet. Last year the ones I could catch were transported to a Technical school aquaculture lab for overwintering but died due to a power shortage. This years stock were going to be returned to the university but cold weather set in before equipment and people could be coordinated for removal. The tilapia are a fantastic pond management tool but it would be a lot simpler if the local fish farms had them readily available for stocking...hint..hint.


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## iteech

I know of and remember hundreds of ponds that had absolutely not one iota of interference from man and they were perfect and very "fishy"...wonder why it isn't so much true, today. Anyway we will do all we can to make it good--funds are VERY limited in our families (we would never have the money to stock it from a company--or add tilapia!--which must be an incredible natural tool, they are one of the only "true vegetarians" in the fish world), most of the work will have to be done by only ourselves with what we have available. My friend's husband used to be a wildlife ranger in OH, and he said it is illegal to transfer fish from one public water to another public water, but not from a public water (only your legal limit of course) to a PRIVATE water. Maybe things have changed since he retired 11 years ago, though--I'll have to check it out. Hopefully you can still do that...it was our only hope for stocking! All the watermeal is gone, and it has deepened a foot from the rains. My daughter's very large Rhodesian Ridgeback--a water dog by nature--has happily catapulted himself into the pond, and Wendy says he is chasing SOMETHING--he never catches anything, but he sure tries. He will dive to catch, like a duck! I have a feeling we should keep him out of the water, but he is bigger than me  and definitely much stronger--and Rhodesians don't much care what a human wants. She keeps him only because he is the scariest watchdog ever known (I totally believe he could easily remove your whole arm with one chomp), and her husband is gone a lot. Anyway I am still wandering out there a couple times a week and staring at that water, WILLING it to be full and fish and mostly well-balanced. It sure LOOKS like it is. We shall see--and I am once again grateful to all of you--every single piece of advice has been printed out and kept in a folder; we will refer to it to get this pond in "fishin' condishin"! I can't wait till summer...thanks all...


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## [email protected]

Tilapia absolutely are not cost prohibitive. This year I stocked less than 20 fish weighing around 1/4 lb each roughly 5lbs total into my 1/2 acre pond. Market price for whole tilapia is around $1 to $1.50 per pound wholesale. Say a reseller wants to make a good profit and sells them for $5 per pound live. A pond owner could have an algae free pond all season for 1/2 or 1/4 the cost of 1 chemical treatment that would likely have to be repeated every 6 weeks. In addition, the tilapia will be adding to the forage base and growing bigger bass.

I too have enjoyed fishing unmanaged small bodies of water. With some exceptions this situation often results in catches of large numbers of skinny bass in the 10" to 14" range and a few bluegills of outstanding size, lots of fast action and a lot of fun. There's nothing wrong with this type of fishery if that's what you want. Ever wonder why we don't have more natural lakes? In addition to manmade drainage, over many years vegetation will continue to choke the water, and silting will occur. Largemouth will likely reproduce and overeat the forage base until stunted skinny largemouth are all that remains. Vegetation will continue build organic matter and the pond will continue to silt in becoming a swamp, the water will no longer be able to support fish and eventually it will revert to a grass or woodland. 

There is an infinite number of ways to manage a pond. Establish goals, do the research or seek consultation to reach these goals.


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