# Enough is enough we the sportsmen demand...



## hopin to cash

It is obvious after the last few years that deer numbers and deer size is declining in Ohio. We the taxpayers, sportsmen and supporters of the American way demand some changes...

1. no more kill permits unless public access is granted on a lottery to the land

2. open up all National and State lands to primitive (bow) hunting in the isolated and less accessible areas (no more of this bullshit sniper shooting)

3. entire state goes to one deer per hunter for the next 2 years.

4. any property that is on the delinquent tax list again public access permitted by drawing.


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## Snakecharmer

I see 2 or 3 deer every week driving my car around. Thats about 1 deer per 6 hours of driving .Still too many deer in NE Ohio.


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## jray

we the people who dont have crops that are our livelihoods being destroyed by deer.... not everybody has the same opinion or the same motives. You cant say there arent enough deer because i dont see enough deer to make me happy. Everybody has a different idea about what the ideal population is


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## ostbucks98

i have family who has very large farming operations and it is an overstatement to say deer are destroying their livelyhood...lol...most if not all farmers i know use very little of the nuisant permits they are granted. 

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## Ring

on the way to my blind, "5 mi" from my house, i had 4 big deer walk in front of my car on day 1, on day 2, i saw a fresh car hit on a big deer sitting on the side of the road on day 3, i saw 4 on the way home near the road..

i saw no deer at my blind... but tracks everywere... 

we still have to many deer in ohio... problem is, many of us never see them when we have a gun in our hands...


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## turkeyt

If all those people who started feeding them in the back yard and close by had not started that, then the deer may have stayed in the wild. What did hunters do before trail cameras, feeders, scents, scent elimination stuff were around? You could fill up a dump truck with all the gadgets that guarantee you that big one. We are truly just suckers and the DNR still collects your money. Grandpa would probably laugh at all the crap there is out there now that "help" you get one up on an animal. I used to see deer tearing it up in the woods during season. Now I see them in yards eating on the way out after dark. Anyone else see this? Got to love it.


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## chadwimc

hopin to cash said:


> It is obvious after the last few years that deer numbers and deer size is declining in Ohio. We the taxpayers, sportsmen and supporters of the American way demand some changes...
> 
> 1. no more kill permits unless public access is granted on a lottery to the land
> 
> 2. open up all National and State lands to primitive (bow) hunting in the isolated and less accessible areas (no more of this bullshit sniper shooting)
> 
> 3. entire state goes to one deer per hunter for the next 2 years.
> 
> 4. any property that is on the delinquent tax list again public access permitted by drawing.


Are the totals in yet? I didn't know Ohio's deer population crashed. I won't shoot anymore...


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## Mad-Eye Moody

Oh boy..,,here we go....


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## bobk

Mad-Eye Moody said:


> Oh boy..,,here we go....


Just don't take the bait.


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## ldrjay

Lol

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## M.Magis

hopin to cash said:


> It is obvious after the last few years that deer numbers and deer size is declining in Ohio. We the taxpayers, sportsmen and supporters of the American way demand some changes...
> 
> 1. no more kill permits unless public access is granted on a lottery to the land
> 
> 2. open up all National and State lands to primitive (bow) hunting in the isolated and less accessible areas (no more of this bullshit sniper shooting)
> 
> 3. entire state goes to one deer per hunter for the next 2 years.
> 
> 4. any property that is on the delinquent tax list again public access permitted by drawing.


Please speak for only yourself and most certainly do not include me in any of your hair brained, and selfish, ideas. I cant speak for everywhere, but I know that everywhere Ive gone there isnt a lack of deer for those willing to go look for them. People got lazy a few years ago when the population was out of hand, now if they dont see 10+ deer a day the sky is falling. There are no guarantees in hunting, there are days you arent going to see anything. Thats reality.


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## ostbucks98

your state of denial amuses me.

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## M.Magis

ostbucks98 said:


> your state of denial amuses me.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Explain how its denial when Im seeing plenty of deer, and mature buck sightings are well above average? I think the denial comes from those unwilling to change tactics from a few years ago when there were about 30 deer per square mile, but expecting the same results. Didnt someone once say thats the definition of insanity?


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## Bonemann

M.Magis said:


> Please speak for only yourself and most certainly do not include me in any of your hair brained, and selfish, ideas. I cant speak for everywhere, but I know that everywhere Ive gone there isnt a lack of deer for those willing to go look for them. People got lazy a few years ago when the population was out of hand, now if they dont see 10+ deer a day the sky is falling. There are no guarantees in hunting, there are days you arent going to see anything. Thats reality.


I don't think that the sky is falling but things are changing, for better or worse ? (Not sure yet).

I've hunted here for over 40 years and when I started in 1968 (ten years old) there weren't many deer or deer hunters out there. My buddies dad called me a liar when I told him I saw a big buck (while I was squirrel hunting). Same thing I got called when I told people I saw coyotes (while bow hunting) back in the early 90's.

Things always change, will it be for the better, maybe ? 
If there wasn't deer everywhere maybe people would give up and the woods and fields will once again have more deer and less hunters ?

The ODNR is always a step or two behind the trends that hunters see out in the field. As much as they try they are slow to change things.

I will always hunt Ohio (as long as I'm able) good or bad it's all I know !!!


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman

I'm with ya the deer are gone. Everybody can pull all these excuses but when the final numbers come out it will be obvious the deer are dwindling. I hope some type of a change is made. Although this is what they wanted and now they have it, just sucks for us. I hunt north, central, and southern Ohio, I can see the effects everywhere.


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## MuskieManOhio

NorthSouthOhioFisherman said:


> I'm with ya the deer are gone. Everybody can pull all these excuses but when the final numbers come out it will be obvious the deer are dwindling. I hope some type of a change is made. Although this is what they wanted and now they have it, just sucks for us. I hunt north, central, and southern Ohio, I can see the effects everywhere.


Im with you Jonny I have hunted the same spot all my life and im starting to see a dramatic decline in the deer population and you cant call me lazy because I covered over two miles of land on saturday and two on sunday without seeing anything or any sign. Everybody is going to have their own opinion on this. I believe there are a lot more hunters and people starting to hunt and the deer herd just isnt big enough for how many people hunt these days. My 0.2


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## Bubbagon

hopin to cash said:


> It is obvious after the last few years that deer numbers and *deer size is declining* in Ohio. We the taxpayers, sportsmen and supporters of the American way demand some changes...


LOL!!! Please tell us how your plan will address the body size of the deer. 
Possibly every land owner, delinquent on their taxes, should have to plant 50% of the land with Biologic. 

Please don't pretend to be my representative as a sportsman, taxpayer, or supporter of the American way.


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## jray

ostbucks98 said:


> i have family who has very large farming operations and it is an overstatement to say deer are destroying their livelyhood...lol...most if not all farmers i know use very little of the nuisant permits they are granted.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


and there you go again applying your experiences to the entire state of Ohio! I know 3 farmers who are and for you to say they are lying just because that hasnt happened where you live is ridiculous.


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## ostbucks98

deer do crop damage and that impacts the wallet. to say that they do enough damage to ruin the "livelyhood" of a "real" farmer is an overstatement. im not reffering to the hobby farmer who also has a 9-5 but "real" farmers who do nothing else for a living.

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## Salmonid

Im not a hunter but can tell you the predator prey cycles have changed in the 11 years ive lived in rural western Ohio
11 years ago never saw any coyotes and saw a fair amount of deer. Some fox saw lots rabbits and quail and a few pheasants. 
Today i see tons of coyotes hardly any deer no more quail and pheasants 

The rabbits had disapeared but in the last 2 years have made a good comeback 
My point is that all creatures revolve in cycles related to there predator prey relationships

If your not seeing deer then move to another location. They are there just higher in numbers in some pockets vs other areas

Salmonid


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## Scum_Frog

Thing that needs to happen is a research in each area to determine a rough idea on deer numbers and so forth for each county and rules/tags issued should be addressed accordingly.....

In some areas deer populations are thriving which is the reason for wanting to "thin the herd" in other areas its down....like mine...

Problem is it will never happen....they look at the big picture over all....

I think gun season needs to have limitations...I look at gun season as an opportunity to reach out further from my tree stand than a bow....or even with a muzzle loader when permited.....NOT have your weekend warriors come out and trespass everywhere and just throw random shots off at running deer wounding a ton of deer and never find them.....finally seen the 12pt ive been after all year for the first time last night coming into range and then randomly had two slugs shot last night from trespassers across a field....one hit MAYBE 10' above my head in my tree and the other hit the tree next too me about 12' away....confronted a kid while I was in the stand and told him he almost hit me and his response was "oh well" and took off running....stopped about 50 yards away.....shot three times in the air...re loaded and shot another three times in the air and started laughing and ran away. Its pathetic that we let the state get away with this kind of crap and let our hunters be this way.

I do know and understand its been this way for years but its literally making me want to quit hunting all together. Its extremely disheartening.


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## hopin to cash

Ok, so my rant was a bit on the far left but there are less deer in the three areas that I personally focus my efforts on. (Portage, Coshocton and Jefferson counties) or at least the areas of those counties I hunt. I retract my opinion "we the taxpayers, sportsman and keepers of the American way" and just "I" think changes made to be made. 

I think scum frog has made an excellent point "since the people in the Mercedes hit a deer in Solon" the entire state must have to many deer right?:T


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## Bubbagon

Scum_Frog said:


> Its pathetic that we let the state get away with this kind of crap and let our hunters be this way.
> 
> I do know and understand its been this way for years but its literally making me want to quit hunting all together. Its extremely disheartening.


I don't know what "the state" has to do with your situation at all. What crap? The kid who trespassed? 

Some of you guys with the blanket statements....


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## Lundy

Gun harvest has remained flat or declined when compared over the last 6 years.

The archery harvest has increased 40 -50% in that same time period. This reflects only deer recovered and tagged.

If you want to curtail harvest even more you need to look at reducing archery opportunity the same way the gun opportunity has already been reduced.


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## bkr43050

I spent over 22 hours in the woods hunting in the last week and saw a total of 9 deer. Do I believe that the deer are gone? No, but I do believe that their density numbers where I am located are drastically reduced. With the fresh snow I was able to see evidence of their existence Saturday. I hunt a 56 acre property and based on the fresh tracks that had to have been made between Friday evening and Saturday afternoon I would guess that I may have had 6-8 deer pass through at the most. That is assuming that I didn't count deer twice. I do believe that part of my situation is due to my place being more of a nocturnal habitat but I also know that a few years ago that same property yielded probably 5-6 times the number of deer sightings. Between me and my 3 boys we have only taken 1 buck and 1 doe. At this point the only thing more that may be taken would be a mature buck. We are going to to our part to try and hold the numbers somewhat in check in our area. 

I think you will get a ton of varying opinions on what the status is and where it should be. To add to that I think in our county alone there is a drastic variation of population densities and what one sees on their hunting ground may be radically different from what is on the other areas. Keep that in mind when considering what the state must do to set limits. To create a situation that satisfies all areas and all hunters is impossible. 

Since I hunt in Knox county and it is still somewhere around #6 highest it makes my plea for lower limits sounds irrational. I am hoping that over time the distribution of the herd will smooth out some now that the major reduction has occurred. Only time will tell on this one though. The numbers in the county have been declining for a few years now and have gone down I believe by somewhere around 40% so at this point it does not seem to be playing out that way.

I believe the ODNR was feeding everyone a false promise by implying that the bag limit reduction from 6 to 4 would have any impact. Based on their own chart of results from the 2011 season their were only 1819 deer killed beyond the 4th deer. That is not even 1% of the total harvest.


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## ostbucks98

people posting that there are plenty of deer in their neighborhood doesnt have anything to do with the statewide -20% harvest.
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## hopin to cash

Bubbagon said:


> You are quick with the generalizations.
> You should stop as your hole is getting deeper.


Let me spell this out for you in English...

The group of people that I hunt with over the last 15 years have covered more ground and resorted to changing tactics to harvest deer. We have done exactly what magis stated to harvest deer and that is my reason for the rant. We spoke with many people who just said they are not seeing the deer they used too period. A few years ago we camped with some guys from Vermont that had come to Ohio to hunt deer because the numbers in Vermont were dwindling. Those guys spent lots of money here in Ohio on there 2 week stay. We ran into them again this year and they said they probably will not be back. (I wonder why?)

OK now I'm all grown up BobK!!! just for you:Banane23:


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## Lundy

I deleted a couple of posts

PLEASE keep this discussion civil


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## hopin to cash

Sorry Lundy , it just makes me mad when he keeps thrashing me... I will do my best to keep it general and civil. It does make for great reading and pass the time here in the tundra right now.

My final statement is this "I am not sure what good looks like as far as deer population but right now there are less deer on or in the areas that I have hunted over the 15 years". (30 years total)


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## Kableguy

I started deer hunting in 1983. That year the total harvest was about 60, 000 deer statewide. I'm trying to remember but I think you were allowed one deer (Portage County) and I think part of the week was buck only or something like that. Anyone else remember? It's been too long and too many seasons.

Since then hunting has changed. Crossbows had only been legal less than a decade and not popular yet. Compound bows were very low tech. 50% letoff was the norm. No inline muzzleloaders. Pyrodex was the only black powder substitute. No sabots in muzzleloaders or shotguns. No rifled shotgun barrels. Not too many fancy scents or calls or planting feed plots. No scent control clothing. Archery season didn't start until well into October. Muzzleloader season was always the three coldest days in January. No aerial photography to prescout. No internet to share advice or techniques. No Sunday hunting. And on and on.

Jeez, it's a wonder there are any deer left at all, much less enough to support a 4-6 deer limit.


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## hopin to cash

This is a great post kableguy and I agree 100%. I am guilty of using every single one of the advancements you speak of. I thought the state took all this into consideration when setting the numbers. 

Again your post was the best one yet and probably spot on.

I believe it was buck or doe on Monday and Tuesday and the rest of the week was buck only. I remember watching 7 deer all antlerless walk by me at 20 yards right in the middle of West Branch and couldn't shoot a one.


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## Bubbagon

You guys are not exactly arguing with what I'd call "facts". I don't doubt your experiences, but that doesn't make them state wide facts.
Deer management is a LONG term affair. There will be anomalies, dips, and spikes.
The TREND is exceptional. Especially if you look at what our deer herd looked like in 1983, as the previous poster suggests. The deer numbers are dramatically higher now than they were in 1983. Not to metnion the QUALITY of deer we see in Ohio. We rule the record books. Most guys I know would get their left one to come hunt in Ohio during the rut.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yU...page&q=ohio deer harvest numbers 1983&f=false


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## Lundy

Bubbagon said:


> The TREND is exceptional.


That is a matter or perspective.

If you compare the trend to the early 80's the population is higher.

However if you use the past 10 years as a baseline the population is substantially lower and the trend shows a rapid continued rapid decline.

Some could argue that we had too many deer 5-8 years ago and this is a readjustment to the proper population for the carrying capacity. They might be right, but they could also be wrong.


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## Bubbagon

Here's the trend over the past 50 years. Looks good to me!
http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/outdoors/hunting/deer/deer-harvest-ohio.html

There were less than 60,000 deer shot in 1983. That might be what he wants, but not for me.
I think the Ohio DNR does an EXCEPTIONAL job managing our herd. It's certainly not a science, in the sense they can not control weather, how many hunters will hunt, how things will go on opening day....
Like I said, not to mention the QUALITY of deer. Look what we've been throwing in the record books the last 20 years. It's INSANE!!!


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## hopin to cash

Looks like the article is a few years old again and we are living in the past if we think it's the truth about Ohio deer herd. Some have posted that the state is slow to react to changing times. Your article is only supporting that opinion "they are slow to react".


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## Bubbagon

Nope, it's just the most recent article I could find.
Like I said, ONE of us is approaching this discussion with facts....

Tell me again how the body size of the Ohio deer is diminishing and how the state is responsible for that? 
C'mon, man!


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## supercanoe

According to the ODNR as of 2012 the whitetail deer herd in Ohio has never met or exceeded the carrying capacity of the states habitat.


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## Bubbagon

Ohio DNR does an OUTSTANDING job, Just ake a look at our neighboring states and get back to me. (PA, WV, MI....LOL!!)

Here are the years that were missing from my article.
Not exactly time to hit the panic button.

2008 - 232,000
2009 - 252,000
2010 - 261,000
2011 - 239,000
2012 - 219,000

Again, fewer than 60,000 deer shot in 1983. The "baseline" for the last 10 years is almost exactly 4 times as many deer shot as compared to the baseline of the 1980's.

I'm not sure what you guys are even worked up about.
Is it because you didn't get your deer this year?


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## hopin to cash

Your facts and comparison to other states again support the lack of reaction by Ohio to take action now before we reach those numbers you speak of. Maybe we can learn something from the other states mistakes and take action now. 

As I said before myself and my group still fill most of our tags but we are doing it by changing areas and covering a lot more public land and seeking out permission from private land owners as well. 

There is a decline in the deer herd right now and lets be proactive not reactive.


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## lotaluck

Bubbagon said:


> Ohio DNR does an OUTSTANDING job, Just ake a look at our neighboring states and get back to me. (PA, WV, MI....LOL!!)
> 
> Here are the years that were missing from my article.
> Not exactly time to hit the panic button.
> 
> 2008 - 232,000
> 2009 - 252,000
> 2010 - 261,000
> 2011 - 239,000
> 2012 - 219,000
> 
> Again, fewer than 60,000 deer shot in 1983. The "baseline" for the last 10 years is almost exactly 4 times as many deer shot as compared to the baseline of the 1980's.
> 
> I'm not sure what you guys are even worked up about.
> Is it because you didn't get your deer this year?


My mind changes daily or even hour to hour on the subject,but I have to ask. How many people were actually hunting in 1983? I believe that was the first year i got my license and i remember being the only one in my class that hunted. I can say it was not the cool thing to do at the time. Now take a typical 7th grade class up this way and I would be willing to bet that 20% of the boys are all about hunting. Just a thought that I have no statistics to back up. Bubba you are the king at finding facts or studies, can you find one that backs up how many licensed Hunters there were for any of the mentioned years.


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## lotaluck

Does any body remember back in the 80's when it was common to see large heards of deer together? I remember looking out the window as kid and seeing what seemed like 10 to 20 deer feeding together. Wonder why we dont see that anymore, possibly it has something to do with survival instincts. I doubt it has any thing to do with numbers but it is just something to consider.


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## Bubbagon

hopin to cash said:


> Your facts and comparison to other states again support the lack of reaction by Ohio to take action now before we reach those numbers you speak of. Maybe we can learn something from the other states mistakes and take action now.


Are you reading the same stuff I am? How in the world does it support that?
Ohio's long term trend is EXCEPTIONAL, bot in numbers AND in quality. That is what's called a FACT.
As far as other states, hunters in West Virginia and Pennsylvania would LOVE to have the quality of hunting we have here. Where are their record book deer?
That is a widely accepted OPINION.

I'm not sure I can continue this. The absence of logic is over whelming.


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## Bubbagon

lotaluck said:


> My mind changes daily or even hour to hour on the subject,but I have to ask. How many people were actually hunting in 1983? I believe that was the first year i got my license and i remember being the only one in my class that hunted. I can say it was not the cool thing to do at the time. Now take a typical 7th grade class up this way and I would be willing to bet that 20% of the boys are all about hunting. Just a thought that I have no statistics to back up. Bubba you are the king at finding facts or studies, can you find one that backs up how many licensed Hunters there were for any of the mentioned years.


Quite the opposite. Kids, families have so many other choices to entertain them than hunting these days.
Here's some numbers from some of the dates we are talking about.

Total hunting licenses sold in Ohio in 1960 - 671,000
Total hunting licenses sold in Ohio in 1983 - 491,000
Total hunting licenses sold in Ohio in 2003 - 331,000

Here's the source: http://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Hunting.htm


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## hopin to cash

Bubbagon said:


> Are you reading the same stuff I am? How in the world does it support that?
> Ohio's long term trend is EXCEPTIONAL, bot in numbers AND in quality. That is what's called a FACT.
> As far as other states, hunters in West Virginia and Pennsylvania would LOVE to have the quality of hunting we have here. Where are their record book deer?
> That is a widely accepted OPINION.
> 
> I'm not sure I can continue this. The absence of logic is over whelming.


You will keep following because you need to convince yourself the deer herd population in Ohio is fine and the future of deer hunting in Ohio is thriving. Somebody put one those poles on here that ask the question, "Are you seeing as many deer while hunting in Ohio as you saw 5 years ago"? I'll tell you right now that pole will be 66% of the people will tell you they are seeing less deer.

Now that is the facts I want to bring out, not the damn studies and squirrel numbers the state wants us to see.


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## Bubbagon

hopin to cash said:


> You will keep following because you need to convince yourself the deer herd population in Ohio is fine and the future of deer hunting in Ohio is thriving. Somebody put one those poles on here that ask the question, "Are you seeing as many deer while hunting in Ohio as you saw 5 years ago"? I'll tell you right now that pole will be 66% of the people will tell you they are seeing less deer.
> 
> Now that is the facts I want to bring out, not the damn studies and squirrel numbers the state wants us to see.


Thanks for bringing those "facts" to the discussion. LOL!! You aren't serious, are you?
And apologies for my misleading "damn studies and squirrel numbers". I've never heard simple counting and adding called that before, but if you say so...

I gotta bow out. I can't match that level of ignorance.

And it's POLL!!


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## ostbucks98

the only fact thats important is there is less deer in ohio than 5 years ago and the number is substantially less.

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## lotaluck

Bubbagon said:


> Quite the opposite. Kids, families have so many other choices to entertain them than hunting these days.
> Here's some numbers from some of the dates we are talking about.
> 
> Total hunting licenses sold in Ohio in 1960 - 671,000
> Total hunting licenses sold in Ohio in 1983 - 491,000
> Total hunting licenses sold in Ohio in 2003 - 331,000
> 
> Here's the source: http://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Hunting.htm


WOW am i friggin suprised, thats why I hate facts.


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## Snook

The deer herd is down. Let's just hope it helps produce a more balanced healthier herd down the road. What I have noticed over the past 20 yrs on the properties I hunt in Coshocton Co is that the body size of the deer have gotten smaller as well as the antler mass. Biologist Tomkovich says this is mostly due in part to the number of deer. I've saw a lot of pencil horned 4-6pts the past few years that remind me of the mountain PA deer back in the day. Saw a lot less basket 8 pts that I use to see. Also many of the does I've seen are just small deer. I also hunt Trumbull and Ashtabula Co. and have not noticed that as much this way. Will be interesting to see how Ohio manage's the next couple of seasons. I know not seeing deer is discouraging but it may help out down the road for the health of the herd.


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## Bubbagon

Snook said:


> The deer herd is down. Let's just hope it helps produce a more balanced healthier herd down the road. What I have noticed over the past 20 yrs on the properties I hunt in Coshocton Co is that the body size of the deer have gotten smaller as well as the antler mass. Biologist Tomkovich says this is mostly due in part to the number of deer.


So the deer herd is down. But body size and antler mass has DECREASED due to the size of the herd.
Tell me more how both of these ideas exist in your mind at the same time...

BTW, Boone and Crockett says that our antler mass is increasing. But I don't want to start with all the "studies" and "squirrel math" again. You guys stick with the blanket statements based on nothing. That's way better.


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## Snakecharmer

lotaluck said:


> WOW am i friggin suprised, thats why I hate facts.


Remember those are hunting licenses not deer tags. Back then more emphasis on qauil, pheasant, rabbits...


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## Bubbagon

Snakecharmer said:


> Remember those are hunting licenses not deer tags. Back then more emphasis on qauil, pheasant, rabbits...


Yup, and you know why.....LOW deer numbers. VERY low.

So here's some more "squirrel math" or counting as I like to call it.
From 1830 to 1979 (140+ years) Ohio had almost no Boone and Crockett entries. A few here and there, but we weren't even on the map.
Now from 1980 to 2001 (only 21 years), Ohio had 199 entries, ranking 8th in the country.
http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/trophywatch.asp?area=news
And from 2009 to 2011, in just 2 years Ohio ranked 2nd with 151 entries
http://wiredtohunt.com/2013/06/03/t...-a-boone-crocket-buck-you-might-be-surprised/

That's good antler mass!!! Better than Kansas, Iowa, Kentucky, Texas, Illinois....and these are TOTAL B&C entries. Some of the traditional great deer hunting states have WAY more deer, more land, and much much less hunter density. (Ohio is at the top of hunter density at 11 hunters/sq mile.)


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## hopintocash2

how much public land hunting do you do?

any idea on how to find out the numbers on deer checked, public verses private?


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## Bubbagon

I hunt about 50/50 private vs public.

And yes, they are statistics for the questions you're asking.
You obviously have access to the internet. There's a site called "Google". You can type almost anything you want in there and it will send back links to information.
Like I typed: "ohio deer harvest totals private land" and the very first link was a Deer Harvest Summary. Within that link are links to all the season summaries since 2002 in Ohio.
Now here's where the hard work starts. You're going have to read the document and find the chart about public versus private land. (I'll help you....it's near the bottom so you can scroll through a bunch of pesky "squirrel math" and "Studies" and that type of junk.)

What the heck, here's the link:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RR7bzkdTe7c=&tabid=24114


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## hopintocash2

Bubbagon said:


> Yup, and you know why.....LOW deer numbers. VERY low.
> 
> So here's some more "squirrel math" or counting as I like to call it.
> From 1830 to 1979 (140+ years) Ohio had almost no Boone and Crockett entries. A few here and there, but we weren't even on the map.
> Now from 1980 to 2001 (only 21 years), Ohio had 199 entries, ranking 8th in the country.
> http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/trophywatch.asp?area=news
> And from 2009 to 2011, in just 2 years Ohio ranked 2nd with 151 entries
> http://wiredtohunt.com/2013/06/03/t...-a-boone-crocket-buck-you-might-be-surprised/
> 
> That's good antler mass!!! Better than Kansas, Iowa, Kentucky, Texas, Illinois....and these are TOTAL B&C entries. Some of the traditional great deer hunting states have WAY more deer, more land, and much much less hunter density. (Ohio is at the top of hunter density at 11 hunters/sq mile.)



how many of these b&c entries have come from public land? problem is, public lands have taken the big hit from the liberal bag limits, some private owners are managing there own herd, as i do. i say what gets shot and what does not on my land. so my small plot is still doing ok. not as well as it was but i can't control what the neighbors are doing. i do 90% of my firearm hunting on public land, and i have seen a lot less deer over the years.


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## jray

ostbucks98 said:


> deer do crop damage and that impacts the wallet. to say that they do enough damage to ruin the "livelyhood" of a "real" farmer is an overstatement. im not reffering to the hobby farmer who also has a 9-5 but "real" farmers who do nothing else for a living.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


if deer impact the "hobby" farmer they do the same thing to the "real" farmer just over more acres. The guy i work for runs about 3500 acres so i would tend to call him "real" by your definition. The problem is as was stated before in order to do anything meaningful they will have to decrease opportunity. Especially being as research shows very few people limit out. I am certain the population is lower but i dont know how that is going to change. There are alot of competing interests and competing opinions at the bargaining table.


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## hopintocash2

Bubbagon said:


> I hunt about 50/50 private vs public.
> 
> And yes, they are statistics for the questions you're asking.
> You obviously have access to the internet. There's a site called "Google". You can type almost anything you want in there and it will send back links to information.
> Like I typed: "ohio deer harvest totals private land" and the very first link was a Deer Harvest Summary. Within that link are links to all the season summaries since 2002 in Ohio.
> Now here's where the hard work starts. You're going have to read the document and find the chart about public versus private land. (I'll help you....it's near the bottom so you can scroll through a bunch of pesky "squirrel math" and "Studies" and that type of junk.)
> 
> What the heck, here's the link:
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RR7bzkdTe7c=&tabid=24114


maybe you should read the subject line, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones


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## Bubbagon

I'm not going to pretend I understand what you're saying. I don't.
The absence of logic around your opinion is overwhelming. Feel free to mix in a fact, or a statistic, or even a supporting opinion piece. Anything besides blanket statements as IF they were facts. They are not.

If you, as you say, are managing your own deer herd on private land and you're seeing less deer with smaller body mass, than I really don't have any answers for you.


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## buckeyebowman

MuskieManOhio said:


> Im with you Jonny I have hunted the same spot all my life and im starting to see a dramatic decline in the deer population and you cant call me lazy because I covered over two miles of land on saturday and two on sunday without seeing anything or any sign. Everybody is going to have their own opinion on this. I believe there are a lot more hunters and people starting to hunt and the deer herd just isnt big enough for how many people hunt these days. My 0.2


While i have no doubt that overall deer numbers are down in Ohio, the first highlight may be part of your problem. You've hunted the same spot all your life while deer location varies, not only seasonally, but within the season. At one time maybe Ohio deer numbers were sufficient to "camouflage" that reality. 

The second statement that I highlighted really stunned me. You covered 4+ miles on 2 consecutive days and saw no SIGN? If that is true, then you really are in an area that has been completely whacked! A buddy and I went to a public hunting area Sunday afternoon for one last "poke and hope". I pushed what was once a farm field that has been being reclaimed by nature for about the past 20+ years. Nature is a mother, by the way! There was sign galore in there! However, some spots were so thick that, had I booted a deer, I would have had trouble getting a shot. Heck, I think I would have had trouble knowing that a deer got up! 

Your last statement, about deer hunter numbers being up, I completely disagree with! Hunter numbers are down. Down statewide, that is, I don't know about your particular area. Or, as someone pointed out, total hunting license sales are down. I don't know about you, but I started hunting in the late '60's, and when there were plenty of wild pheasant, quail, grouse, and rabbits about I hunted them like crazy, but only as a precursor to the deer season. In fact, I know quite a few guys who buy hunting licenses who don't bother with small game at all, they *only* hunt deer! I think declining license sales would show pretty much a one-to-one correlation with declining deer hunter numbers. 

Let's face facts here. When the ODNR thought that the deer herd might be getting out of hand they liberalized the bag limits. We hunters, not being those who would ignore the bounty of nature, let alone the generosity of the powers that be, whacked the living crap out of them! We, ultimately, are the most efficient predators the deer herd has.


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## ostbucks98

bubba your own provided facts are backing his argument. even though the dnr did a great job managing the herd up to lets say 2009 we cant turn a blind eye to the direction it is going now before its to late to do something. 

just because tommy has a nice hidden gem loaded with deer doesnt mean jack for the majority of ohio hunters. if its facts you want then you cant deny the numbers provided.
Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## hopintocash2

Bubbagon said:


> I'm not going to pretend I understand what you're saying. I don't.
> The absence of logic around your opinion is overwhelming. Feel free to mix in a fact, or a statistic, or even a supporting opinion piece. Anything besides blanket statements as IF they were facts. They are not.
> 
> If you, as you say, are managing your own deer herd on private land and you're seeing less deer with smaller body mass, than I really don't have any answers for you.


my question was for mmagis, i never once said anything about smaller body mass. "absence of logic around your opinion is overwhelming"?????? read who you are posting to as well as the subject line.

*and i couldn't get this link to work*:What the heck, here's the link:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick...3d&tabid=24114


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## ostbucks98

something that just came to mind after reading buckeyebowmans post. im curious how many hunters became land owners when public land started dry up? i know in my area parcels that were once 300 acres may now be fifteen 20 acre parcels. alot of land owners dont buy license. i just wonder if its enough to make up some of the declining sales numbers.

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## Bubbagon

hopintocash2 said:


> my question was for mmagis, i never once said anything about smaller body mass. "absence of logic around your opinion is overwhelming"?????? read who you are posting to as well as the subject line.


Well you had my name in your subject line, so I guess I'm not following.

As far as making remarks about smaller body size, I can only go by what you wrote:



hopin to cash said:


> It is obvious after the last few years that deer numbers and deer size is declining in Ohio. We the taxpayers, sportsmen and supporters of the American way demand some changes...


So tel me more. Deer numbers AND deer size are declining, and the ODNR management practices are responsible for both.
So how are both happening at once?


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## hopintocash2

Bubbagon said:


> Well you had my name in your subject line, so I guess I'm not following.
> 
> As far as making remarks about smaller body size, I can only go by what you wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> So tel me more. Deer numbers AND deer size are declining, and the ODNR management practices are responsible for both.
> So how are both happening at once?


* question for magis * don't see your name here. again, pay attention to who you are posting to. i am HOPINTOCASH2 not HOPIN TO CASH.


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## Lundy

Bubbagon said:


> Here's the trend over the past 50 years. Looks good to me!
> http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/outdoors/hunting/deer/deer-harvest-ohio.html
> 
> There were less than 60,000 deer shot in 1983. That might be what he wants, but not for me.
> I think the Ohio DNR does an EXCEPTIONAL job managing our herd. It's certainly not a science, in the sense they can not control weather, how many hunters will hunt, how things will go on opening day....
> Like I said, not to mention the QUALITY of deer. Look what we've been throwing in the record books the last 20 years. It's INSANE!!!


I killed one of those deer in 1983 but I don't really want to go back there. I would rather live in the present and think about the future. Unless I could have the politics of 1983 then I might want to go back

I don't know what the current population is or more importantly neither does anyone else, that is just a fact.

Since we are talking facts. NO ONE knows what the starting deer population was in Feb or after the fawns in May or in Sept at the beginning of bow season or now at the end of gun season. Estimating the deer population is just as the name implies an estimate, a guess. It is a imperfect science. The ODNR and hunters, to some extent, use dead deer numbers to determine live deer populations. Much like a fishermen determining the fish population in lake by how many they catch. Well deer hunters were catching more deer a few years ago that they are now. Good thing or a bad thing can be debated but there are less deer to catch, it is just a fact.


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## hopin to cash

I thought you were giving up on our stupidity. See I told you that you wouldn,t stop. I feel like I,m debating this with someone who just got all there pack money today from Allstate, nationwide and GEICO today.

FACT: LESS DEER MAKE FOR DISGRUNTLED HUNTERS AND THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE!!! PERIOD:banghead::banghead::banghead:

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## hopintocash2

i get the impression that private land hunters are happy, where as public hunters are not. maybe the state should look into boosting bag limits on private land and reduce limits on public land. for example: a 3 deer county, one deer may be taken on public, 2 on private, hunter needs to give an address and landowner name of the private landowner. state could do random audits on deer checked just to keep the honest...honest. landowners then could manage there own herds they way they want, public lands might see an increase in deer, which would help keep public hunters happy. just a thought.


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## Bubbagon

hopintocash2 said:


> pay attention to who you are posting to. i am HOPINTOCASH2 not HOPIN TO CASH.


Well color me embarrassed. Are you serious? This is your hang up? After this whole discussion? You're wigged out because I mistook HopinToCash for HopinToCash2.

My gawd I feel dumber for being part of this thread.

Where's the whiskey?


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## hopintocash2

Bubbagon said:


> Well color me embarrassed. Are you serious? This is your hang up? After this whole discussion? You're wigged out because I mistook HopinToCash for HopinToCash2.
> 
> My gawd I feel dumber for being part of this thread.
> 
> Where's the whiskey?


you should, your posting quotes to me that i didn't post. get your sh$t straight.


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## supercanoe

There are some very interesting stats in the deer season summary. I read it every year.


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## Snakecharmer

Bubbagon said:


> Well color me embarrassed. Are you serious? This is your hang up? After this whole discussion? You're wigged out because I mistook HopinToCash for HopinToCash2.
> 
> My gawd I feel dumber for being part of this thread.
> 
> Where's the whiskey?


Glad there isn't a Bubbagone on here. I didn't realize there were two "Hopinto Cash"

Reminds of Larry and his brother Daryl and his other brother Daryl.


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## rdramey

Sorry if someone else has already posted this, but the deer kill results for the first 67 days of the season compared to 2012 are down about 47,000. No denying that change. Time to reduce bag limits.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=FwZU6X03sMU=&tabid=24154


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## Bubbagon

So Lundy is making good points, but some of which I'd challenge.
Yes, deer harvests totals are indicative of population totals, but not completely factual as other factors also play a part like weather, economy, hunter numbers, reporting systems...

But for argument's sake, let's say the deer numbers are down 7% from last year, and 7% from the year before, etc...
They guys are talking about going from seeing tons of deer to zero. That's a regional issue, not a statewide issue. If harvest totals truly show an accurate decline in total population, than the decline should be like 15%, not the level which these guys are talking about.

Even so, Ohio's deer herd is approximately 750,000 deer as of 2011. Deer management 101 says that 1/3 of the herd needs to be killed each year just to keep the numbers in check. (We all know how what prolific breeders deer are...see any local metro park).
So our harvest numbers should be 250,000 just to keep the herd in check. 

I think if guys are struggling in areas, that's exactly what's happening. Guys are struggling in certain areas. It's a regional thing that probably has more to do with habitat and increasing predator pressure than hunting permits.


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## Lundy

rdramey said:


> Sorry if someone else has already posted this, but the deer kill results for the first 67 days of the season compared to 2012 are down about 47,000. No denying that change. Time to reduce bag limits.
> 
> http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=FwZU6X03sMU=&tabid=24154


That is not an apples to apples comparison because the 2012 numbers include the first 2 days of the 2012 gun season. The 2013 numbers do not.

You will be able to get a accurate comparison when they post their next update this week. That comparison will include the archery, youth, and all 7 days of gun for 2012 and for 2013.

The two variables that will need to be factored will be the early MZ season on the 3 designated areas for 2012 and the statewide early MZ season for 2013.


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## hopin to cash

I have an idea let's do nothing besides my wife loves the current situation. She knows we have a rule at deer camp nobody drinks a beer until a deer is shot. We had to wait until damn near 8:00 am Monday this year. Hope that helps support your statement about darel and darel snake charmer now focus on the thread or stay out. 


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## Flathead76

I have definately noticed less deer the last few seasons. Especially this year. Hunters feeling like they need to fill every tag that they can is the main problem here. The dnr did cut back the total tags allowed by half this year. Last year you could kill 18 deer with the three zones plus urban tags. This year you can kill 9 deer total and urban tags are a thing of the past. When you have to hunt harder to kill your deer each season you really need to take a step back and ask yourself if the area that your hunting can handle this. This is what huntets in Pennsylvania did not do when they started thier quest to antler restrictions and very liberal doe tags. The first three years hunters shot the piss out of thier herd because they could. They had to really start to work hard to kill deer in years four and five. Then comes year six and then they saw the results when they were seeing almost no deer on state game lands. Just because you can kill 9 deer per year does not mean that you should fall into that trap. Hunters really need to look in the mirror if they are not seeing deer because most of the time its thier own personal greed that got them there.


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## hopin to cash

Could not have said it better and your post is spot on. So what your saying is ODNR doesn't have a clue and we the responsible hunters need to take our own action 

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## Uglystix

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.


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## bdawg

Here is my experience from hunting the same public land for the last 15 years with my dad. We usually start driving deer by 9:30am of the first day and hunt 3-4 days during gun season. We cover a lot of area. We usually get 1 or 2 deer per season off this land. Usually 2. The land always has hunting pressure and our 2 man deer drives get messed up pretty often by other hunters in the area, but we do see the tracks and sign where the deer are. 

We have seen a significant decline in numbers in our area. A couple of years ago, we were seeing a good number of deer in our area, but most of them were small bucks. Last year, we hardly saw any deer and only shot one small buck. Now, bucks don't reproduce, so deer numbers in our section really dropped off. We also saw more stands from bowhunters on the private land next to the public land. So, we had more hunters with a longer season and more oppurtunities to take deer. Our brushy hillside honeyhole was devoid of any deer last year! 

This year, we hunted early muzzleloader and 3 days of gun season. We saw a few deer and/or tracks and got one doe. Saw a lot more doe than bucks this year. Also saw a lot LESS hunters in our section of public land. Saw the usually stupid amateur hunters, that pushed 4 deer to me, which I shot one the first morning. We game plan for them. They show up AFTER first light and push the deer out of the fields. 

We hunted again on Wednesday and Saturday and saw NO HUNTERS in our section where we do deer drives! Never had this happen before! Especially on a Saturday. I'm thinking they hunters were put off by the last 2 years of low deer numbers and gave up on the spot! I'm looking forward to a good bounceback in deer numbers on the land we hunt next year. 

The deer numbers go in cycles. I do think that the liberal regulations and liberal days of hunting seasons did help for everyone to be able to get out more and have more of a chance for good hunting luck. Also, I could have shot 12 deer in a week in my backyard, but it's in a city where you can't hunt. I think the cities where the deer densities are too high, should open up and allow hunting. Especially the county and city park systems, and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. I don't want to spend tax dollars on sharpshooters when I know a lot of good shooters on this website that are just itching for a chance at those good areas!!!


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## crjacob90

I kinda have to agree with bubba i mean there have already been 3 to 4 22+ pt non typicals taken before gun season came in, now in my area numbers are down slightly but not enough to get in an uproar about. Wild animal populations are always up and down. And even if there are fewer deer at least then the sense of accomplishment should be greater than just sittin on a deer farm and takin your pick of the herd. My .02


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## Lewis

I don't care what the ODNR wants. I saw this trend happening several years ago at my place. We do not shoot does anymore. For every doe you kill, that is on average 3 deer that will not be there next year.

I really have empathy for those that have only public land available as their only option to hunt.

It's no wonder where we are at with the population. Liberal bag limits, the "if it's brown it's down" mentality,massive deer drives , coyotes etc.

In my opinion, there is way too much pressure on the resource.
The numbers for the total kill might look similar to years past, but what is the number of surviving deer? Hunters used to seeing dozens of deer during gun week are now seeing a few. 

Lundy, what is your experience with Athens county over the last several years?


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## bass pro

this is a big discussion but it has to be the area we hunt. yes deer are down in certain areas. i went from seeing 11 deer the 1st day (6 almost ran in front of my truck and 5 i needed a high powered rifle to shoot them) to 0 seen the rest of the week. this was not from being lazy as some had said. we ran 15 woods (private property) with 7 guys and not one shot fired and not one deer seen so you cant say populations are not down. however did see a heck of increase of rabbits lol should have been hunting them lol


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## bkr43050

There was mention of the public versus private property harvests and to my knowledge there is no statistic that distinguishes the number of deer harvested in public versus private. Their is discussion about how many hunters hunt on each but I found nothing pertaining to their success.

As Lundy mentioned the year-to-year comparison does not yet reflect accurately (or as accurately as we can expect at this point) until the complete gun season is compared against last year. There is obviously more season left after that but the largest harvest seasons will have taken place and I think the remainder of the season will go fairly consistent with last year. The November 20th report was showing a 11.5% drop statewide. That was probably the most recent comparative date although that did include an early muzzleloader season where last year did not. There thought was that the early ML season offset the bonus weekend so if that is true then the numbers after this last week should be a fairly good barometer. My suspicion is that the 11.5% drop will grow even more. Opening day was lower and despite the colder weather later in the week I would be surprised if the numbers made up for that opening day drop.

As far as the deer herd population estimates go it is like Lundy said. It is an estimate and nothing more. There is no other way to go about it but to estimate in some fashion. Having said that I have started to somewhat question the accuracy of those numbers myself. I believe much of the basis for that number is the harvest total and as mentioned the growth models suggest that killing 1/3 of the herd is a sustainable amount. This is where I question their logic. How do we know that the harvest is close to 1/3 of the herd? If you take more than 1/3 of the herd then you estimate the herd at a larger number, thus keeping bag limits higher. In subsequent years you would pay the price by struggling to get to the targeted numbers which I do feel is happening in some areas. Is it an issue statewide? With harvests remaining over 200,000 it does not appear so at this point, at least to me. But countywide? Perhaps in some counties and hopefully the ODNR will be responsive in their efforts to adjust the bag limits. I think the more visible area is at the property level or small region level. If you have an aggressive harvest in an area it can and will be much different than an area that has some un-huntable areas for safe havens or perhaps just more conservative practices from the hunters. For instance on my property (56 acres) it is basically me and my 3 boys. There is absolutely no way that we are going to harvest 16 deer from this property. First of all, we have no need for that many deer so the desire to get that many is not there. It could perhaps be done although I think with the current condition it would be highly difficult. Other years we could have but the point is that we make the choice to not harvest as many as possible. That is our choice and probably the best thing that we can do to preserve what we feel is an acceptable population. We know that we are not necessarily working in concert with all of our neighboring hunters but nonetheless we do our part. We took a 1.5 year old buck and a mature doe this year and that is all that will be taken unless a mature buck opportunity comes along.

The point I am making with all of the above is that everyone here who feels passionate about their stance on the situation should simply do what their conscience tells them to do. If you want to back off a bit on the harvests to hold the number in check or perhaps let it recover feel free to do so. You can also talk to neighbors and try to influence them as well if you wish. The herd estimation process is far from a science and it will very possibly not reflect what you are seeing on your little corner of the state. You can continue to work with the ODNR to convince them of your stance but if your stance is that of conserving the herd then you really don't need their help completely. yes it will help if they are able to legislate the hunters in adjoining areas to abide by your views but you are still able to make a difference yourself.


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## Snook

Lewis said:


> I don't care what the ODNR wants. I saw this trend happening several years ago at my place. We do not shoot does anymore. For every doe you kill, that is on average 3 deer that will not be there next year.
> 
> I really have empathy for those that have only public land available as their only option to hunt.
> 
> It's no wonder where we are at with the population. Liberal bag limits, the "if it's brown it's down" mentality,massive deer drives , coyotes etc.
> 
> In my opinion, there is way too much pressure on the resource.
> The numbers for the total kill might look similar to years past, but what is the number of surviving deer? Hunters used to seeing dozens of deer during gun week are now seeing a few.
> 
> Lundy, what is your experience with Athens county over the last several years?


Could not agree more Lewis! Public ground should be managed differently than private ground. And like you we have been trying to help the cause on our private ground by NOT pulling the trigger.


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## Lundy

Lewis said:


> Lundy, what is your experience with Athens county over the last several years?


You know enough about the area I hunt to know that I have a pretty good handle of what is and what isn't. Far fewer deer in my little area that I hunt.

Still not 100% sure what to attribute the decline to, but no doubt there are way less deer.


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## bkr43050

Lundy said:


> Still not 100% sure what to attribute the decline to, but no doubt there are way less deer.


This is where I am struggling with this issue. I don't knew whether the 4 deer limit (or 6 for the previous few years) is the main factor. I wish I know how many hunters in my area were taking 3, 4, 5, or 6 deer. I don't know that there are many. The property behind me usually always has a few hunters throughout slug season and also other times. I saw nobody there all week. to my south was a couple of hunters on Monday , none later in the week that I know of. To the north I saw nobody either although they tend to hunt that from a tower and stay out of sight. I would have thought that if guys were not getting their deer I would have seen more out on the weekend. I didn't see a spot of orange either day. I know the coyote population is ballooning in our area. I think they have an effect but who knows how much? 

My guess on our area is this. I think the herd went extremely high a few years ago and this prompted the hunters in the area to harvest large numbers for a few years and the result was that they dropped the population to a point where even moderate harvest numbers are keeping the herd in check or even perhaps still reducing it. Add to that the coyote predation and the herd is not able to grow any. I may be way off but that is what it appears to be in my area.

On a side note, my son hunts with a buddy on his grandfather's farm (Holmes county). The grandfather has gone for years with telling the boys to harvest no does which I have always found to be excessive. This past weekend the grandson saw tons of deer and no antlers. He watched one food plot with 17 does/fawns at one time! The guy has about 70 acres which he manages for deer by planting food plots and providing cover. I guess the grandfather gave the boys the okay to harvest a couple of does if they wish to. This is an illustration of what can be done by an individual if they wish to do so. 

As someone else mentioned it is a tougher task for the hunters who do not have private land at their disposal.


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## hopin to cash

In this thread alone the "POLE" is about 80% seeing less deer. Where are those survey school kids at? Somebody make them read this. Your damn right we are passionate about this. I talked to hotel managers, restaurants owners, bar maids, gas station owners and grocery store owners near those central Ohio top 6 counties and they say the last three deer seasons have been a bust for them. People who used to stay a week now stay Sunday and Monday. Others who were regulars every year don't even show up anymore. 
Do you think those people give a rats ass about the !# numbers.

If you can't stand my spellen than help us drive chang here in OHIO for our deer hurd than I will prof reed evry post I make for eras.


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## bdawg

I know that the public area I hunted near the Dover/New Philly area had a lot less cars parked on the side of the road next to the public hunting areas than I've ever seen in the past! I think the low numbers in the region the last 2 years drove those hunters to try other areas this year. You can also look at the county by county results for each year and see the changes on a regional basis. I glanced at it a month ago and it looked like Harrison County was down, but Ashtubula County was up from previous years. Maybe someone else can find and post the county by county results. 

On public land, I take the first deer I see, cause that may be the only shot I get during gun season. I took 1 shot last year (and missed) and 2 shots this year. And I hunted muzzleloader season too. I'd love to have some private land where I could be more selective.


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## hopin to cash

Here is the link to the ODNR meetings upcoming. We have got to show our passion for this issue and protect this incredible resource we have. 

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Default.aspx?tabid=5725

Let's meet this thing head on...

We need to organize and show up in numbers at these preliminary open houses to express our concern.

DEER NUMBERS ARE DOWN AND PEOPLE ARE GIVING UP ON OHIO. WE WILL SOON HAVE WHAT WV, PA, TN AND OTHER STATES HAVE... 'LOW NUMBERS AND SMALL DEER"

It works perfect for the bureaucrats "less deer and smaller deer= less damage" you can't fool us.

We are not the unintelligent savages you propose we are. We are hunters and sportsman that support our local businesses and our natural resources.


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## Lewis

I would say it is a combination of overkill by hunters and coyotes. I am fortunate to live on nearly a mile long driveway, way back in the woods. I am very in tune with the local deer herd and feed the same group of deer daily. 

I have witnessed fawns come up missing from the group every single year.
Within a day or two I look for the buzzards flying overhead and it leads me to their coyote ravaged carcasses.


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## hopin to cash

[/COLOR]PERMITS AND LICENSES
The Division of Wildlife issued 588,885 deer permits in license year 2012-13, 2.5% fewer than last year and the third consecutive year that weve seen a decrease. Permit sales for 2012-13 were off by nearly 6% from the peak in 2009-10. The decreasing trend is likely due to several factors including fewer deer in many areas of the state, as well as additional restrictions on the use of the $15 antlerless permit. The reported 2012-13 statewide buck harvest of 81,149 is nearly 14% lower than the record 2009-10 antlered buck harvest. Additionally, hunters were restricted to using the $15 antlerless permit during the first nine weeks of the archery season only. In years past, unused tags were valid in Zone C during the statewide gun season. This change undoubtedly contributed to the 22% drop in antlerless permit sales. Youth deer permit sales were up nearly 3% this year, ending a two-year skid

OH GOD HELP ME, I'M NOW SORTING THROUGH THE !#NUMBERS, BUT I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS AND WILL DEDICATE THE NEXT FEW MONTHS TO DRIVING CHANGE.


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## weasel

my take on this is as a hunter is we killed to many deer. which the odnr insurance companys and farmers wanted us to do. so they offered were you could kill 6 deer or more in a lot of areas and as a lot of hunters we over killed in these areas. its kind of like what happen to lake erie you use to could take 10 walleye a year and look what that did to the walleye numbers. I think as hunters we need to let more deer walk and just take 1 or 2 deer a year and eat more beef and chicken ha ha ha! i know on my property in Cambridge ohio I have only taken a few deer off of the property each year and have let a lot walk and I have seen the numbers improve in my area. I know guys who hunted all week north of Columbus who seen very few and they hunted every day


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## reo

114,575 in 2009. 105,781 in 2010. 90,828 in 2011. 86, 965 in 2012. And 75,408 this year in 2013. These are all for the 6 day gun week. Some folks might say a drop of almost 40,000 in five years (27%) would indicate a problem. Is five years of data enough to indicate a trend?


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## Lundy

OK Weasel,

If I take your explanation that the reduction is due to over harvest, even though a very small percentage of hunters kill more than 2 deer, it begs the question of why does the population still seem to be reducing?. Two years of a substantially reduced harvest should have led to a large increase in the deer population. We killed over 100,000 less deer combined in 2011 and 2012 than the previous 3 year average. That reduction should have realized an increase of well over 200,000 statewide population increase for the 2013 season. So where are all of these deer that we didn't shoot and the babies they have had the last two years? If the reduction many say they are seeing is from over harvest it should have fixed itself the last two years and yet it seem to be declining further. Can you explain this to me please?

ODNR data for 2011
_This past season, 157,726 people successfully killed a deer. Of those hunters, almost 73%, or 114,789 people, harvested just one deer. About 19% killed two deer, followed by 5.4% killing three, 1.8% taking four, 0.57% taking five, and a mere 0.29% harvesting six or more deer._


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## Chillydigits

the continued reduction of the deer herd can only be the work of the Ohio Grass Man, there can be no other explanation!


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## reo

Total harvest including gun, muzzy, bow, youth....TOTAL: 252,017 in 2008. 261,260 in 2009. 239,475 in 2010. 219,748 in 2011. 218,910 in 2012. I am willing to bet that the total for this year will be lower than last. Again I ask, is five years enough to see a trend? I for one think some conservation is called for.


----------



## reo

Lundy said:


> OK Weasel,
> 
> If I take your explanation that the reduction is due to over harvest, even though a very small percentage of hunters kill more than 2 deer, it begs the question of why does the population still seem to be reducing?. Two years of a substantially reduced harvest should have led to a large increase in the deer population. We killed over 100,000 less deer combined in 2011 and 2012 than the previous 3 year average. That reduction should have realized an increase of well over 200,000 statewide population increase for the 2013 season. So where are all of these deer that we didn't shoot and the babies they have had the last two years? If the reduction many say they are seeing is from over harvest it should have fixed itself the last two years and yet it seem to be declining further. Can you explain this to me please?
> 
> ODNR data for 2011
> _This past season, 157,726 people successfully killed a deer. Of those hunters, almost 73%, or 114,789 people, harvested just one deer. About 19% killed two deer, followed by 5.4% killing three, 1.8% taking four, 0.57% taking five, and a mere 0.29% harvesting six or more deer._


Could it be that 200,000+ deer harvested per year along with the coyote kill is still too many to allow the population to stabilize?


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## Lewis

I do everything I can to manage the herd here at my place in Guernsey County.
Trying to get the neighbors on board too.

I hate to keep beating the same drum, But I blame a lot of it on overharvest, but coyotes play a major role.

Here is a video that I shot this afternoon in my backyard.
Notice the ratio of mature does to fawns.


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## reo

Lewis said:


> I would say it is a combination of overkill by hunters and coyotes. I am fortunate to live on nearly a mile long driveway, way back in the woods. I am very in tune with the local deer herd and feed the same group of deer daily.
> 
> *I have witnessed fawns come up missing from the group every single year.*
> Within a day or two I look for the buzzards flying overhead and it leads me to their coyote ravaged carcasses.


Extremely interesting. How many of the groups fawns does this happen to?


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman

Lundy said:


> ODNR data for 2011
> _This past season, 157,726 people successfully killed a deer. Of those hunters, almost 73%, or 114,789 people, harvested just one deer. About 19% killed two deer, followed by 5.4% killing three, 1.8% taking four, 0.57% taking five, and a mere 0.29% harvesting six or more deer._


Here is an aspect I was just thinking about. Although there aren't many people killing alot of deer the few that are killing a lot are adding up! If you count the numbers *people who kill 3 deer or more account for almost 50,000 of the deer killed in this year! That is one third of the deer killed from 8-9% of the successful hunters!?!* is that saying something?


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## Lewis

I would say with my group of does we lose 8 to 12 fawns a year.


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## reo

Lewis said:


> I do everything I can to manage the herd here at my place in Guernsey County.
> Trying to get the neighbors on board too.
> 
> I hate to keep beating the same drum, But I blame a lot of it on overharvest, but coyotes play a major role.


Very cool! Hard for me to tell but it looked like 4 or 5 fawns out of 10 deer. Close?? If so there should be way more.


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## reo

Lewis said:


> I would say with my group of does we lose 8 to 12 fawns a year.


WOW! From what you have been saying they kill more then the hunters in your area. Far more then you and your boys anyhow. I am guessing this was not happening ten years ago???


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## Lundy

Lewis,

I see you have mastered the art of food distribution to keep fighting to a minimum.

No doubt in my mind that the coyotes can or are playing a major role. I just have never thought that the answer to the reduction is as simple as over harvest. I think it must be a combination of many factors


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## Lewis

No, it was not. The Coyotes moved in here 5 or 6 years ago. I have killed several and plan to kill more this winter.


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## bobk

EHD and CWD?


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## Lewis

I considered CWD or EHD but it only seems to be the fawns effected.
I would argue that it is only 2 factors....overharvest and coyotes.
It might be time for sweeping changes because something is thinning our deer herd.


----------



## reo

Lundy said:


> Lewis,
> 
> I see you have mastered the art of food distribution to keep fighting to a minimum.
> 
> No doubt in my mind that the coyotes can or are playing a major role. I just have never thought that the answer to the reduction is as simple as over harvest. I think it must be a combination of many factors


Lundy
Other than coyotes and hunters what other factors do you suspect at play?


----------



## ranger487

Bubbagon said:


> Are you reading the same stuff I am? How in the world does it support that?
> Ohio's long term trend is EXCEPTIONAL, bot in numbers AND in quality. That is what's called a FACT.
> As far as other states, hunters in West Virginia and Pennsylvania would LOVE to have the quality of hunting we have here. Where are their record book deer?
> That is a widely accepted OPINION.
> 
> I'm not sure I can continue this. The absence of logic is over whelming.


I have hunted West Virginia for almost 20 years and the bucks are not near the size of Ohio but the numbers are not even close you can see 25-30 deer a day were we hunt and that makes a great hunt for me others may like the big bucks I like the numbers and enjoying the day seeing the deer. I think Ohio has to get things back to more numbers. We hunt Ashtabula on private land and you use to be able to pass up does in the morning and take one in the afternoon now if something comes by if you want it better shoot cause you might not get another shot. There isn't as many hunters in the woods as there was before and that's some of the issue's were we hunt but I would still like to see more deer.


----------



## reo

bobk said:


> EHD and CWD?


EHD seems to have gone away for the most part this past summer and CWD is not a factor according to the state.
http://ohiodnr.com/Home/News/NewsRe...asting-Disease-Not-Detected-in-Ohio-Deer.aspx


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## reo

Lewis said:


> No, it was not. The Coyotes moved in here 5 or 6 years ago. *I have killed several and plan to kill more this winter*.


Seems like a prudent action.....


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## bobk

Reo, 
I have just started looking into the diseases. Lots of info to sort through.http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wil...icHemorrhagicDisease/tabid/15345/Default.aspx


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## reo

bobk said:


> Reo,
> I have just started looking into the diseases. Lots of info to sort through.http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wil...icHemorrhagicDisease/tabid/15345/Default.aspx


It was big news the summer before last (drought) but there was not much talk about it this past summer. If you look at the old news releases you should be able to find some stuff as it was happening.


----------



## Snook

Lewis said:


> I would say it is a combination of overkill by hunters and coyotes. I am fortunate to live on nearly a mile long driveway, way back in the woods. I am very in tune with the local deer herd and feed the same group of deer daily.
> 
> I have witnessed fawns come up missing from the group every single year.
> Within a day or two I look for the buzzards flying overhead and it leads me to their coyote ravaged carcasses.


I know the farm/area I hunt in Coshocton has it's share of coyotes. After the snow fell Friday of gun season there were yote tracks everywhere. One buddy saw 3. Wanted to shoot one but it was early and did not want to screw up his hunt. Now I don't know if it was coincidence or not but on three different occasions I have seen coyotes within 10 minutes after a deer has been shot. Ironically all were heading to where the deer had been originally hit before running off. I'm assuming they smell blood that quick? Twice I have seen them chasing otherwise healthy looking deer...one of those yotes is no longer chasing No doubt they kill their share of deer.


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## bkr43050

NorthSouthOhioFisherman said:


> Here is an aspect I was just thinking about. Although there aren't many people killing alot of deer the few that are killing a lot are adding up! If you count the numbers *people who kill 3 deer or more account for almost 50,000 of the deer killed in this year! That is one third of the deer killed from 8-9% of the successful hunters!?!* is that saying something?


I am not sure how you came to those number but based on the numbers from 2011-12 the number killed beyond #2 is only around 8% of the total. This is based on this link.
http://ohiodnr.com/Home/HuntingandT...wmanydeerhunterstake/tabid/23949/Default.aspx


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## CasualFisherman

While Vanity may be the greatest of sins, we need to look much deeper than just hunter harvests to understand deer population trends. Many have eluded to other causes but this is pretty straightforward when we step back and look at the big picture. Lets apply simple math to the equation. Assuming the herd is lower than told at 500K. Lets also assume that the buck doe ratio is a perfect 1:1 even though it is likely still in favor of does. With nearly two offspring per doe average, we get to 500,000 new deer every year. 500/2 = Does x 2 fawns per doe. If hunters are only taking 200K (or even 300K with rampant poaching as some describe), That means at least 200k-300k are being killed by other means for us to maintain our population. For decreases to be occurring(and I believe they are) there is something at work other than the hunter harvest. If we actually apply the estimates the state provides, you are talking about nearly 500K deer being killed by means other than hunting. Car collisions are just a small fraction of this number.

For those of us that observe wildlife throughout the year and not just during hunting season. It is apparent that the fawn count is way down. I started noticing it about 4-5 yrs ago around me. It is very noticeable and if most look back over their summer trail cam pictures you probably have the evidence as well. Way to many fawnless or one fawn does these days. I do attribute this to the coyote population increases. Combine high fawn predation with liberal doe harvest and you will get lower deer numbers.

If everyone passionate about increasing deer herd numbers just dedicated two to three days to trapping a few coyotes, we would not need to adjust our harvest at all. 

I would contend killing a doe reduces the herd by 2-3 for the next season but killing a coyote probably increases the herd 4-10.


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## CasualFisherman

As a further observation that many seem to dance around, is that while deer sightings during daylight are down, many including myself are seeing plenty of sign indicating that the deer numbers may not be as bad as perceived. 

With the huge increase in the popularity of bowhunting (Nearly double in the last decade) Our deer are under more constant pressure than ever before. Are we perhaps educating our deer to be more nocturnal with constant pressure? With so many hitting the woods in Sept, Oct and November, are we ruing gun season by virtue of educating deer far earlier than we have in the past? While not scientific or based in absolute truth, my observations lead me to believe something is causing daytime activity to also go down and this was the best theory I could come up with. Any other thoughts?


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## Snook

CasualFisherman said:


> While Vanity may be the greatest of sins, we need to look much deeper than just hunter harvests to understand deer population trends. Many have eluded to other causes but this is pretty straightforward when we step back and look at the big picture. Lets apply simple math to the equation. Assuming the herd is lower than told at 500K. Lets also assume that the buck doe ratio is a perfect 1:1 even though it is likely still in favor of does. With nearly two offspring per doe average, we get to 500,000 new deer every year. 500/2 = Does x 2 fawns per doe. If hunters are only taking 200K (or even 300K with rampant poaching as some describe), That means at least 200k-300k are being killed by other means for us to maintain our population. For decreases to be occurring(and I believe they are) there is something at work other than the hunter harvest. If we actually apply the estimates the state provides, you are talking about nearly 500K deer being killed by means other than hunting. Car collisions are just a small fraction of this number.
> 
> For those of us that observe wildlife throughout the year and not just during hunting season. It is apparent that the fawn count is way down. I started noticing it about 4-5 yrs ago around me. It is very noticeable and if most look back over their summer trail cam pictures you probably have the evidence as well. Way to many fawnless or one fawn does these days. I do attribute this to the coyote population increases. Combine high fawn predation with liberal doe harvest and you will get lower deer numbers.
> 
> If everyone passionate about increasing deer herd numbers just dedicated two to three days to trapping a few coyotes, we would not need to adjust our harvest at all.
> 
> I would contend killing a doe reduces the herd by 2-3 for the next season but killing a coyote probably increases the herd 4-10.


Just watched a show on either the Sportsman or Pursuit channel ...Deer and Deer Hunting....that say's this exact same thing. You need to kill predators to help maintain your deer herd. Coyotes are a real threat to the fawns and even mature deer.


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## bobk

A good read.http://gameandgarden.com/sustainability/land/do-coyotes-affect-deer-populations/


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## Tritonman

The dow has obviously accomplished their goal of thinning the herd. With reduced bag limits, maybe they are trying to keep it steady and healthy. I personally did not want to see fields of a hundred does and fawns, with a couple of small basket racks. I've hunted private for my thirty year career and would drive by public feeling really fortunate. Public can be really tough and inconsistent. Anybody try duck hunting on public the first weekend. Anyhow I have ten acres that my house sits on and I have seen more deer this year than ever. All things considered, rotation of crops, neighbor kids and my own kids I'm still lucky enough to harvest a buck every year. I'm not picky cause I have to get it done so I can guide for the kids. That's up north. Down south in Guernsey, I have no problem getting it done for two tykes. I see just as many deer as I have the years prior. But we only take what WE can eat. 3 is plenty. I was kinda wondering during the fatter years why the guys at work would take 3,4 or 6 deer each. They would showcase all the local meat markets snack sticks. That has to be pricy. This year they shoot one and wonder what's going on. 6 guys around the fire equals a lot of meat. We can ruin it by ourselves without the dow's help. All you posters are really passionate about this and I support your concerns. I haven't seen a BIG doe for awhile. I've seen huge bucks that I wiff on. I don't want to see a 700,000 deer herd that can be trouble. I think our neighboring states could be a good example of that. I want Ohio deer to be what they are known for. I do agree that you have to change up when the deer do.


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## Lucky Touch Charters

Ohio does have a problem with the population of deer. However it is not necessarily an over population of deer statewide. The ODNR's #1 objective is to sell tags. Therefore they use the over population as a ploy to do so. In my opinion we do have an abundance of deer. However many of these deer are in areas that hunters cannot access or have very little access. The ODNR needs to do a better job of managing the herd per area versus statewide. For example:

i bow hunt medina and summit counties. I gun hunt guernesy, noble, and washington counties.

I would bet anything that there are just as many if not more deer in medina and summit as there in any other county i hunt. if you look at the deer kill #'s you will see that more deer are killed in guernsey versus's medina. That is not because there are more deer in guernsey it is only because there is more hunting pressure in guernsey. Personally i see more deer in urban medina/summit than i do on the private rural farms i hunt. 

On saturday i hunted a popular public land area during gun season for the 1st time in 5 years or more. I sat some & I walked for miles and seen 2 deer and killed 1 of them. I heard less than 5 shots all day. My hunters partners seen baout the same wtih one guy seeing nothing. this is an area my Dad and uncle have hunted for 40 years. usually you see many hunters and hear dozens of shots. I seen very few tracks in the fresh snow. However with or without fresh snow there no signs of deer as far rubbs or scrapes etc. There also no signs of heavily used trails etc.

So in general I see more deer and more deer sign in urban areas than i do on state land or private rural land. 10+ years ago it was the opposite.

Then again we must all remember that just because a few years ago we got to see 10-20+ deer a day during gun season doesn't mean thats the way it should be or always will be. it is ever changing sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. there are still plenty of deer out there. In some aeas way too many. In others not nearly enough for the amount of land.


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## NorthSouthOhioFisherman

bkr43050 said:


> I am not sure how you came to those number but based on the numbers from 2011-12 the number killed beyond #2 is only around 8% of the total. This is based on this link.
> http://ohiodnr.com/Home/HuntingandT...wmanydeerhunterstake/tabid/23949/Default.aspx


I believe I missed a zero in the first number like .00029percentx160,000hunters was X times by six deer and so on down to three. It did seem high to me but I still think it is more than 8%... I was going for even though less people are killing more they are adding up to the singles. Maybe I need to review my math lol


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## supercanoe

As has been stated-anyone who spends the year observing and managing deer can tell you that coyotes are reducing fawn recruitment at an alarming rate. Our recruitment was down to 1 fawn per doe last year. This year it is approaching 0 fawns per doe. We have quite a few mature does(because we let them live) and no babies. Our buck to doe ratio is 1:2 with a lot of 31/2 year old bucks. But with 0 fawn recruitment in the future looks uncertain. 10 years ago a coyote sighting was very rare. 5 years ago it was rare. 3 years ago it became fairly normal. Now it routine.


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## weasel

lundy I second what reo said 200,000 plus deer taken the past 5 to 6 years is really put the hurting on deer numbers along with the coyotes killing the fawns. just my take. also I have talked to people who hunted all over the state who are looking for the reason for the decline in the deer herd numbers and a lot of them are saying we over harvested the deer .


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## Lundy

weasel said:


> lundy I second what reo said 200,000 plus deer taken the past 5 to 6 years is really put the hurting on deer numbers along with the coyotes killing the fawns. just my take. also I have talked to people who hunted all over the state who are looking for the reason for the decline in the deer herd numbers and a lot of them are saying we over harvested the deer .


I'm not doubting harvest has played a role.

However if you look at the redcuded harvest over the last few years the deer should have been making a population rebound. We killed a bunch of deer in 2003-2010 and the population seemed to able to replenish its self. Doesn't seem like that is the case now.

If you do the math and start with just 10 deer, 1/2 bucks and 1/2 does and each doe has 2 fawns, one a buck and one a doe, you end up with 40 deer in 3 years if you have no mortality. Change the birth rate to 1.5 fawns per doe and you get 30 deer in 3 years. Change the base number to 100,000 and you get 300,000 deer in 3 years. The bigger question to me is where are the new deer, coyotes, EHD, natural mortality, does not getting pregnant??

No one knows what the Ohio deer population is or was for that matter. Estimates made from dead deer may not be an accurate way to determine the number of live deer. Someone smarter than me will have to figure it out and I know they are trying


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## Doboy

We've been hunting Muskingum County for 35 years, mosty private property on the edge of state game lands,,, We were the first hunters there,,, before it was stripped, before the the land was bought by the state.

THAT is where everything went down hill for us.

In the past, We put on drives, and seeing 12-15 deer a day was norm.

Then came the out-of-state outfitters. Truck loads of hunters from Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Pa, Ny, and this year,,, even MAINE!

They came for those HUGE TROPHY OHIO BUCKS that were pictured on the front page of every outdoor magazine. 

Next came the HEADLESS BODIES! We were finding 5 or 6 each year,,, just in OUR AREA?. The out-of-staters didn't want the meat so they just cut off the heads and left the bodies for the coyotes.

The coyotes,,, more & more each year. This year, we seen 'em running the deer during the day! 

Next came the white vans. Dozens of men dropping down off the hill onto OUR private property,,, RIGHT PASS & UNDER OUR TREE STANDS when we were sitting in them. They would drive every deer in our area a mile away, into a bottle-neck, and into a massacre. We would never see our 'GROWING' bucks again.


Up on the hill lives our largest problem. A guy who ownes just 3 acres, and has 12-15 HOUNDS.

He runs the local deer every day. When we were down there in bow season, Not one day went passed where we did NOT hear or see those dogs running a deer. 3 of us sat up on the high ridge and listened to the whole run go down. As soon as that tired deer came around, close to his property, the gun went off and the hounds quit barking! GO FIGURE!

My sportsman club friends won't even hunt with us anymore,,,, TOO DAMN MANY DOGS!

The local farmers told us that that guy feeds all those dogs with deer meat, and to shoot every dog that we see running loose in the woods. 

Now This year, gun season, we ran into even a bigger problem.

I seen the 'white van' pull off the road just before dark on Tuesday. 2 guys got out, loaded their guns and headed for the woods. They said that hunting wasn't as good as last year, they got a few, and had to go help drag another out.

Soooo, I went over to the van to talk to the driver. lol!

He said that his 'Gang' was ONLY hunting on the 'LEASED' private property "Up on the hill", (3 acres???) and that they had 9 dead deer in the trailer and one on the way out.

He even opened the trailer so we could see all the dead deer!

NOT ONE TEMP TAG ON ANY OF THOSE DEER! 9 DEER, 2 days,,, NO TAGS???

Now we know why there was so much shooting, UP ON THAT HILL.

Now, You guys can argue ALL YOU WANT about what's wrong out there, but this year, the 3 of us ONLY SEEN 4 DEER in 5 DAYS of HARD HUNTING! Geee, Go FIGURE?

You just gotta love this NEW SYSTEM!


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## Snook

Doboy .... wow! What an unfortunate situation!


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## ShaneMC

Write your local congressman original poster. Please don't use OGF as your personal blog. 

Another post to stir the pot.


----------



## supercanoe

EHD is a problem, but it was not a factor this year with all of the rain we got. The herd is down on our place, but we still have lots of mature deer. No yearlings at all though. They were born but slowly disappeared as the summer progressed. We usually have more button bucks than you can shake a stick at. Not anymore. It wasn't hunters or EHD that killed the fawns. Every study that's been done on fawn mortality in areas with high coyote populations has shown that coyotes kill a lot of fawns. Coyote numbers are higher than ever.


----------



## bobk

Doboy that's a crappy story to read for sure. Did you turn them in? I'm hearing these stories about guys seeing or talking to slob hunters about these type of things. Is anyone turning them in?


----------



## hopin to cash

ShaneMC said:


> Write your local congressman original poster. Please don't use OGF as your personal blog.
> 
> Another post to stir the pot.


??? Thought that's what talk forums were for. Yes we are contacting our congressman as well as anybody else who will listen with respect and compassion I am asking all those who are seeing less deer than they would to spread the word and make your own suggestions to help

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## hopintocash2

ShaneMC said:


> Write your local congressman original poster. Please don't use OGF as your personal blog.
> 
> Another post to stir the pot.


????????????????? what pot would that be ??????????????????


----------



## hopin to cash

Thought I might check some of the creditials of the bashers and trolls that don't seem to think OHIO has a problem with it's deer herd...

Low and behold I find this: So leads me to believe this poster hasn't been on Public land at all in the last few years, and yet he still throws around opinions and statistics like there his life long project. SORRY WERE NOT BUYING...

"FORMER POST QUOTE"

Here's one my son took this year out of a woods we call the "Spring woods". It has a natural spring in the middle of it. When it gets dry, it attracts deer from all over.

Sweet property. 1,200+acres, we hunt for free. The farmer also grows pumpkins for sale and runs a pumpkin patch. So we go out and pick pumpkins a couple days a year, and promise to shoot anything that has 4 legs. Win/win. 


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## bdawg

Man Doboy, you got a real problem over there! Sounds like the only way you're gonna get it fixed is to get the law involved to do a sting on the guy with the hounds and the van load of hunters! Seeing that few of deer is like hunting on public land!


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## Lucky Touch Charters

Doboy said:


> We've been hunting Muskingum County for 35 years, mosty private property on the edge of state game lands,,, We were the first hunters there,,, before it was stripped, before the the land was bought by the state.
> 
> THAT is where everything went down hill for us.
> 
> In the past, We put on drives, and seeing 12-15 deer a day was norm.
> 
> Then came the out-of-state outfitters. Truck loads of hunters from Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Pa, Ny, and this year,,, even MAINE!
> 
> They came for those HUGE TROPHY OHIO BUCKS that were pictured on the front page of every outdoor magazine.
> 
> Next came the HEADLESS BODIES! We were finding 5 or 6 each year,,, just in OUR AREA?. The out-of-staters didn't want the meat so they just cut off the heads and left the bodies for the coyotes.
> 
> The coyotes,,, more & more each year. This year, we seen 'em running the deer during the day!
> 
> Next came the white vans. Dozens of men dropping down off the hill onto OUR private property,,, RIGHT PASS & UNDER OUR TREE STANDS when we were sitting in them. They would drive every deer in our area a mile away, into a bottle-neck, and into a massacre. We would never see our 'GROWING' bucks again.
> 
> 
> Up on the hill lives our largest problem. A guy who ownes just 3 acres, and has 12-15 HOUNDS.
> 
> He runs the local deer every day. When we were down there in bow season, Not one day went passed where we did NOT hear or see those dogs running a deer. 3 of us sat up on the high ridge and listened to the whole run go down. As soon as that tired deer came around, close to his property, the gun went off and the hounds quit barking! GO FIGURE!
> 
> My sportsman club friends won't even hunt with us anymore,,,, TOO DAMN MANY DOGS!
> 
> The local farmers told us that that guy feeds all those dogs with deer meat, and to shoot every dog that we see running loose in the woods.
> 
> Now This year, gun season, we ran into even a bigger problem.
> 
> I seen the 'white van' pull off the road just before dark on Tuesday. 2 guys got out, loaded their guns and headed for the woods. They said that hunting wasn't as good as last year, they got a few, and had to go help drag another out.
> 
> Soooo, I went over to the van to talk to the driver. lol!
> 
> He said that his 'Gang' was ONLY hunting on the 'LEASED' private property "Up on the hill", (3 acres???) and that they had 9 dead deer in the trailer and one on the way out.
> 
> He even opened the trailer so we could see all the dead deer!
> 
> NOT ONE TEMP TAG ON ANY OF THOSE DEER! 9 DEER, 2 days,,, NO TAGS???
> 
> Now we know why there was so much shooting, UP ON THAT HILL.
> 
> Now, You guys can argue ALL YOU WANT about what's wrong out there, but this year, the 3 of us ONLY SEEN 4 DEER in 5 DAYS of HARD HUNTING! Geee, Go FIGURE?
> 
> You just gotta love this NEW SYSTEM!


That is very unfortunate. if it was me the 1st thing i would do is call 1-800-poacher. The ODNR is all about setting up stings and writing tickets and taking away hunting privelages of those unethical poachers. infact they will even offer you a reward for turning people in. 2ndly i will be visiting the "guy on the hill" when i left his property he would fully understand that the next loose dog i see running in the woods will be a dead dog


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## Bubbagon

hopin to cash said:


> Thought I might check some of the creditials of the bashers and trolls that don't seem to think OHIO has a problem with it's deer herd...
> 
> Low and behold I find this: So leads me to believe this poster hasn't been on Public land at all in the last few years, and yet he still throws around opinions and statistics like there his life long project. SORRY WERE NOT BUYING...
> 
> "FORMER POST QUOTE"
> 
> Here's one my son took this year out of a woods we call the "Spring woods". It has a natural spring in the middle of it. When it gets dry, it attracts deer from all over.
> 
> Sweet property. 1,200+acres, we hunt for free. The farmer also grows pumpkins for sale and runs a pumpkin patch. So we go out and pick pumpkins a couple days a year, and promise to shoot anything that has 4 legs. Win/win.



YUP! That's me! LOL!! What's your point?
Just because i disagree with you, that makes me a troll? 
And sorry for throwing around all those "statistics". LOL!! Feel free to mix in some factual information yourself....like....ANYTHING. The best you can do is dig up old threads of my son's deer? That's odd.

And at least show my son's deer for crying out loud:


And I still hunt a LOT of public land too. In fact, 5 of my best 6 bucks have come from public land. 
Here's one of my better deer that was shot on public land. Within 1/2 hour of Ohio's largest city.


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## ostbucks98

offshore24 said:


> 2ndly i will be visiting the "guy on the hill" when i left his property he would fully understand that the next loose dog i see running in the woods will be a dead dog


why punish the dog for being a dog? it drives me crazy to hear people say they would shoot dogs just because they run deer. why not just call the dog warden and let them handle it. im sure if he has that many dogs they are not tagged. 

Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## bobk

ostbucks98 said:


> why punish the dog for being a dog? it drives me crazy to hear people say they would shoot dogs just because they run deer. why not just call the dog warden and let them handle it. im sure if he has that many dogs they are not tagged.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Agree, plus it's not legal to just start shooting dogs.


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## Doboy

offshore24 said:


> That is very unfortunate. if it was me the 1st thing i would do is call 1-800-poacher. The ODNR is all about setting up stings and writing tickets and taking away hunting privelages of those unethical poachers. infact they will even offer you a reward for turning people in. 2ndly i will be visiting the "guy on the hill" when i left his property he would fully understand that the next loose dog i see running in the woods will be a dead dog



Yes, Yes,,, AND Yes.
Last year, the archers got together & dropped 5 dogs & 2 yotes,,,, that I know of.
But, last day gun,,, we still saw 3 hounds eating a road-kill. (too many cars & I missed! ) He just breeds up more.
I pulled into 'His' drive to turn around and look, and friend Tom had a hard time counting all the pens!
I/ we will be sending a Google map to 800-poacher.
I want the 'bunch' in the white van busted too.
Most likely Next year.
Thanks

BTW,,, My good friend just sent a pic of #6 coyote in his trap!
rt224 & Raccoon area.


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## Lewis

Guy's please don't get this thread shut down with personal stuff. This is an interesting thread.


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## Northern Reb

I agree this is a good thread. 

I don't have numbers or facts to support my opinion...just a lot of time in the stand is my proof that numbers are way down. 

I've seen and heard more yotes over the past several yrs in the field as well as on camera. I know two people who shot a yote last wk but no deer. This is probably a dumb question from a lifelong hunter/fisher, but where can I purchase traps for yotes?


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## F1504X4

Wow! Talk about an extremeist! The deer are still there, I think they are just getting smarter. We have had plenty of deer on trail cameras over the last couple years. Unfortunatly once fall sets in and crops come off, all the movement turns to well after dark and just up to sunrise. VERY FEW pictures in the daylight. I think they just pattern us, as we try to pattern them, they are just a lot better at it than we as humans are. I have also noticed a rise in coyote sightngs the last couple years, I can't imagine that is helping the population any.


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## hopin to cash

Bubbagon said:


> YUP! That's me! LOL!! What's your point?
> Just because i disagree with you, that makes me a troll?
> And sorry for throwing around all those "statistics". LOL!! Feel free to mix in some factual information yourself....like....ANYTHING. The best you can do is dig up old threads of my son's deer? That's odd.
> 
> And at least show my son's deer for crying out loud:
> 
> 
> And I still hunt a LOT of public land too. In fact, 5 of my best 6 bucks have come from public land.
> Here's one of my better deer that was shot on public land. Within 1/2 hour of Ohio's largest city.


All you have done in this thread is throw out conjecture based on ODNR's own deer numbers. I am trying to speak for what I believe is the vast majority of hunters who's money support our local businesses during the "BIG" week. You stand behind your post as if your out there with us every step of the way. "YOUR NOT" you are seemingly hunting by your own accord 1,200 acres with absolutely no hunting pressure. Nice deer by the way and I to can post some beautiful bucks that were all shot on Public land over 5 years ago. (THAT'S THE POINT...5 YEARS AGO)

How about you skip muzzle loader and drive to West Branch in Portage county, Berlin in Mahoning county, Brush Creek and Fernwood in Jefferson county, Woodbury in Coshocton county, Harrison county wild life area and hit Tappen on your by. Ask the hunters there if they are seeing more deer than ever before? Better yet ask them if they are seeing any deer at all. You sir are living in one of those little glass snow domes and out of touch with those of us who actually hunting on Ohio's lands.


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## hopin to cash

Some have taken some shots at me here for being way left of center on this thread (EXTREME). Felt necessary to explain a little and well defend my position.

If you think the starting thread was just plain crazy, I agree but the best way to fight politicians is to go just a little further than they do and look you guys have followed it. Had I just said " I think the deer numbers are down" this thread would be buried on page 4 by now.

I do believe in this and I want to return to the good ole days (NOT SO LONG AGO ABOUT 10 YEARS) when you went and camped or stayed in hotels where the stories of shooting deer and nice bucks that opening Monday were abroad. Old timers lit cigars and patted you on the back for harvesting a nice buck. They also gave you the story of how great it was to just see a deer track in the late 60's.

My group hunts and I mean hunts (we have resorted to taking canoes to the back sides of public lands) just to put the odds in our favor and take advantage of the other hunters leaving parking lots. We have put down the guns and gone into the deepest nastiest greenbrier patches in 4 counties just to at least spook deer out to others.

We devised winch systems to get deer out of otherwise impossible areas after harvest. We are that group that loves this thing and won't stop but we also are passionate that the state and everyone else see and hear our concerns.

One guy said if you go to the meetings with your crap, you will make us all look like fools. If I don't go to the meetings and just spend wasted hours on a small internet chat group I will have accomplished nothing.

Please keep your ideas, assessments and personal accounts coming as I believe it will help. Just wish we could reach more people than the 2 or 3 thousand on here.


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## Bubbagon

hopin to cash said:


> How about you skip muzzle loader and drive to West Branch in Portage county, Berlin in Mahoning county, Brush Creek and Fernwood in Jefferson county, Woodbury in Coshocton county, Harrison county wild life area and hit Tappen on your by. Ask the hunters there if they are seeing more deer than ever before? Better yet ask them if they are seeing any deer at all. You sir are living in one of those little glass snow domes and out of touch with those of us who actually hunting on Ohio's lands.


No way. Too many idiots with guns. BTW, The "Big Week" is a joke. Full of weekend wannabes and knuckleheads who dust off a shotgun once a year. I don't consider most of the gun hunters to be sportsmen. They hunt, but most are not sportsmen.
I choose to hunt public places that most people don't think of as traditional deer hunting land. And do it with a bow so I can hunt some odd places. 3 of my best public spots are within an hour of Columbus, and I hardly ever see another bow hunter there.

BTW, you DO realize there are WAY better public spots than the ones you listed, which get WAY less notoriety. 
Heck, I'd hunt the AEP lands over any of the ones you listed.


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## crittergitter

The problem is that all the ones he mentioned used to hold a LOT of deer, and now they're all nearly wiped out. 

It's all fairly irrelevant. I've been watching this episode unfold for 4 or 5 years now. Everyone is all bent out of shape now, but none will bother to show at the March open house. There will be no effort to get organized and form a voice for sportsmen. This is prevalent in hunters minds now, but in a month or so most will move on and forget all about it until next year. 

In fact, I bet email inquiries have been fairly mild at the DOW this week. You (the OP) care, but you don't care enough to take action or get your wallet out. Like I said, I've seen all this before.


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## Bonemann

Bubbagon said:


> No way. Too many idiots with guns. BTW, The "Big Week" is a joke. Full of weekend wannabes and knuckleheads who dust off a shotgun once a year. I don't consider most of the gun hunters to be sportsmen. They hunt, but most are not sportsmen.
> I choose to hunt public places that most people don't think of as traditional deer hunting land. And do it with a bow so I can hunt some odd places. 3 of my best public spots are within an hour of Columbus, and I hardly ever see another bow hunter there.
> 
> BTW, you DO realize there are WAY better public spots than the ones you listed, which get WAY less notoriety.
> Heck, I'd hunt the AEP lands over any of the ones you listed.


I would say enjoy it while you can. Jefferson County used to be a top 5 county for quite a few years and with the notoriety, came hunters from all over the region. Within 10 to 15 years, it was all over (not many out of towners come here anymore) but now we have coyotes to help us keep the deer population down.

I think it will recover here but it will take time. It may never be what it once was but I remember when there were almost no deer here at all (late 60's).


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## kingofpercha

If you guys would put as much time into scouting as do you complaining you would not be having tag soup for dinner. If you do not have the privilege of private land then you can only use what is available and should be happy. It is not your "right" to have awesome public land, it is a bonus that the state gives you anywhere to hunt at all. If you don't like it then buy some land.


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## ostbucks98

kingofpercha said:


> If you guys would put as much time into scouting as do you complaining you would not be having tag soup for dinner. If you do not have the privilege of private land then you can only use what is available and should be happy. It is not your "right" to have awesome public land, it is a bonus that the state gives you anywhere to hunt at all. If you don't like it then buy some land.


this isnt a public vs. private discussion. this is a majority of hunters realizing our deer herd is on the decline in a fast way.

Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## hopin to cash

Bubbagon said:


> No way. Too many idiots with guns. BTW, The "Big Week" is a joke. Full of weekend wannabes and knuckleheads who dust off a shotgun once a year. I don't consider most of the gun hunters to be sportsmen. They hunt, but most are not sportsmen.
> I choose to hunt public places that most people don't think of as traditional deer hunting land. And do it with a bow so I can hunt some odd places. 3 of my best public spots are within an hour of Columbus, and I hardly ever see another bow hunter there.
> 
> BTW, you DO realize there are WAY better public spots than the ones you listed, which get WAY less notoriety.
> Heck, I'd hunt the AEP lands over any of the ones you listed.


I have sent a private message to Bubbagon asking him to stay out of this thread. I think everyone notices at this point he has nothing of quality to add accept badgering me. Right about that point he's hunting a "PRIVATE PUMPKIN FARM" was checkmate. If you all find our bantering between each other humorous than I suggest that he and I move to another thread such as the comedy area.

I don't think it belongs here on such a serious matter. We hunted some of the AEP and talked to a few hunters down there 2 years ago. They expressed concern to us also that it seemed deer numbers were down. They also were concerned about poachers in that area. We also have friends that hunted in the Zelaski area and to are reporting a study decline in population.

Again you have abstained from hunting popular public destinations by your own accord only this time accusing hunters as being idiots. Boy this just keeps getting better (I mean your professionalism on the subject and all).


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## bobk

Hopin, your point of view is no better than anyone elses. For you to expect someone to not be involved in the thread because you don't like what they have to say is selfish. This isn't kindergarten. Stop replying to his posts if you can't handle what is being said.


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## hopin to cash

Bonemann said:


> I would say enjoy it while you can. Jefferson County used to be a top 5 county for quite a few years and with the notoriety, came hunters from all over the region. Within 10 to 15 years, it was all over (not many out of towners come here anymore) but now we have coyotes to help us keep the deer population down.
> 
> I think it will recover here but it will take time. It may never be what it once was but I remember when there were almost no deer here at all (late 60's).


Bonemann, I really thought Jefferson would be way up this year with that leftover opening day snow. We have stayed away during gun the last few years and I guess I was just wishful it would report a strong recovery. We did a little bow hunting near Jefferson St. park but that's it. We feel the numbers there are down also with what little sign we saw during bow season.
The coyote howling down there is nuts at night. Damn near scary even sitting around the camp fire protected by 7 grown men...


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## lotaluck

hopin to cash said:


> I have sent a private message to Bubbagon asking him to stay out of this thread. I think everyone notices at this point he has nothing of quality to add accept badgering me. Right about that point he's hunting a "PRIVATE PUMPKIN FARM" was checkmate. If you all find our bantering between each other humorous than I suggest that he and I move to another thread such as the comedy area.
> 
> I don't think it belongs here on such a serious matter. We hunted some of the AEP and talked to a few hunters down there 2 years ago. They expressed concern to us also that it seemed deer numbers were down. They also were concerned about poachers in that area. We also have friends that hunted in the Zelaski area and to are reporting a study decline in population.
> 
> Again you have abstained from hunting popular public destinations by your own accord only this time accusing hunters as being idiots. Boy this just keeps getting better (I mean your professionalism on the subject and all).


Have you not been reading his replys or are you upset because he does not agree with you? He has offerd alot of facts and taken the time to offer links to support his opinion. Its a public forum and I for one like hearing everyones opinion. Facebook and other social networking allows you to choose who you comunicate with but unfortunatly you dont get that luxery here.


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## ldrjay

I think the population is lower which is good. It makes you hunt. Insteed of just going out and killing crazy numbers every year. I still see plenty of deer and deer sign. In fact I see more on public than I do on our 5 acres in an urban area. Who really NEEDS to kill more than two a year? As for the crying., people disagree don't like it don't talk.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## hopintocash2

Bubbagon said:


> No way. Too many idiots with guns. BTW, The "Big Week" is a joke. Full of weekend wannabes and knuckleheads who dust off a shotgun once a year. I don't consider most of the gun hunters to be sportsmen. They hunt, but most are not sportsmen.
> I choose to hunt public places that most people don't think of as traditional deer hunting land. And do it with a bow so I can hunt some odd places. 3 of my best public spots are within an hour of Columbus, and I hardly ever see another bow hunter there.
> 
> BTW, you DO realize there are WAY better public spots than the ones you listed, which get WAY less notoriety.
> Heck, I'd hunt the AEP lands over any of the ones you listed.


Bubba, sorry for any negative posts i have sent your way, after reading this post, I now understand where you are coming from. One small piece of advice I would like to offer , reach up and brush off your shoulder, at some point, that thing is going to get heavy. Goodluck and goodbye. HOPINTOCASH2


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## Snakecharmer

Here's an article from D'arcy Egan.....Deer harvest off 5%. Doesn't seem like a crash to me espically with lower bag limits.. I wonder if the number of hunters were the same or more this year or less? 
The ODNR spokesman did say some areas will go from 3 deer to 2 and also some counties will be buck only which should help the population some.

http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2013/12/post_15.html#incart_river

Here's the county by county results of gun season :
http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2013/12/county-by-county_deer_gun_seas.html#incart_river


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## supercanoe

I don't see anything about buck only counties. It says that the bonus antlerless tags may be eliminated in some counties.


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## Snakecharmer

supercanoe said:


> I don't see anything about buck only counties. It says that the bonus antlerless tags may be eliminated in some counties.


You're right, I misread, some counties might lose anterless permits.


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## treytd32

I smell a lot of dead fish in here


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## hopin to cash

Holy crap...

Ohio followed right into the scenario created in PA years ago...

We have not seen even the worst results of the poor managment yet...

Note the discussion separating public lands from private...

I'm not a big huge Nugent fan but he certainly ask the right question didn't he?


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