# muzzleloader recommendation



## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

im looking to upgrade from my CVA optima to something else. theres nothing wrong with the optima, i just feel its time for an upgrade because im going to retire the slug gun and hunt only with the muzzleloader during gun seasons. any suggestions?


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## huntindoggie22 (Mar 28, 2008)

I have the traditions vortek and I have had no complaints. Absolutely love the gun. Shoots very good and very easy to maintain and clean also. JMO


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## nschap (Jan 6, 2008)

i have a t/c encore pro hunter. i have had it about 5 years now and i still love it. i also gave up the slug gun .


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## shorebound (Apr 26, 2008)

My tc omega has replaced my slug gun for a while now. It was on the cheaper side but it is very accurate matched it with a Nikon monarch scope the thing shoots quite well furthest shot was this year 80 yards(reaching out of my comfort zone) but drooped her in her tracks the ml's knock down power just doesn't match the old ithica. The omega isnt the most elaborate set up but it drops deer and with the weather guard coating makes maintenance and cleaning a breeze 


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

T/C Encore Pro Hunter is an awesome gun. I know a bunch of people that have them(including myself) and they all shoot great! The Savage 10ML is a smokeless ML that is another good one. Many of my friends have them and love them too.Nice thing about the smokeless is limited cleaning. Both guns are quality made MZL.This would be my top 2 choices for "stock" guns. I have been using my brother's custom ML past 2 years.Will outshoot most rifles but at $1800+ ea these MZL are in a league of their own.And at that price I will just borrow his


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## wallydog (Jun 10, 2005)

I looked at all the of the Big name Production Guns and decided on the Thumb hole T/C Pro Hunter FX this year and glad I did. Came with a Leupold ultimateslam 3x9x40. After shooting the gun this season I liked the scope so much , I bought one for my Benelli M1 super 90. Put down 3 deer from 60 to 130 yards this year shooting 100gr Blackhorn with the Hornady 250gr SST and all fell right where they were shot. I did look at the Savage and wanted to go that route ,but really did not like the Base model they are offering right now.


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## nicklesman (Jun 29, 2006)

I have a tc encore endeavor and love it. Just remember if you ever want to buy additional barrels you also have to change for arms. I also went with the laminate stock with a fluted stainless barrel. It weighs a ton.

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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Tom,

What you will be getting with an upgrade is maybe a prettier gun, or maybe a better stock, or maybe a little nicer trigger, or maybe easier breech plug removal.

What you will not get in an upgrade over what you have now is any better performance. They will all shoot the same as what you have today. You will not see any noticeable accuracy gain of one over the other.

You are shooting a 3 pellet load and 295 gr powerbelt. You can gain more by changing your load than you can by changing your gun. You can "upgrade" just by changing your load to a quality bullet of 250-260 grains that will perform much better on deer and provide better grouping and downrange accuracy. You also may want to go with a loose powder like BH209 or T7 where you have the ability to tune your load to your barrel and sabot fit. That would need to be determined on the range. A 5 gr change in powder charge can effect grouping.

I shot a little BH209 this year in a .45 cal, 700ML that I set up for my daughter-in-law to hunt with prior to me converting it to smokeless. I liked the powder, very clean and very little smoke. HOWEVER that stuff is expensive!!!! Much, much, more than smokeless powders!

The only way an upgrade will help you in the performance area is to go with a smokeless muzzleloader. The performance difference between a smokeless and a smoker is very large but there is limited availability and it would be at the upper end of your budget for a stock Savage ML 11 and substantially over for a customized one. There is a little learning curve with the smokeless also. You need to make proper powder selections and weigh each load. Bullet selection is also important because of the increased velocity some bullets that work well for deer at smoker speeds become grenades at smokeless speeds.

Pappascott has or had a Savage SS laminate he was going to sell last year. Don't know if he still has that available or not.

I have 3 Savage MZ's, 2 converted to 45 cal and one stock 50. I am converting a Remington 700ML right now to smokeless. I also have two Knight MK85's and and an old side lock. I like MZ's 

Call me.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Nice buck Lundy! Good shot placement!


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## postalhunter1 (Jun 5, 2010)

Ez, I would like to add my nickels worth... I am actually doing the exact opposite! I am transitioning from using my muzzleloader almost exclusively, back to using a rifled slug gun. Let me explain. Firstly, I take youth hunting on a yearly basis and I have found the muzzleloader to pose additional equipment and concerns that I would like to eliminate. I had my T/C Encore Pro Hunter fail to fire 3 times with a new hunter this year! Talk about frustrating!! It would have been his first deer also! I had the rifle out the day before hunting at the NASA Plumbrook hunt. There was about 8-10 inches of snow up there, and apparently some of that moisture fouled out my primers(they were in a ziplock bag all day) and the load in my rifle. Obviously we could debate how and why the misfires happened, but I am just pointing out that it would "not" have happened with a shotgun slug. 
Secondly, it's so much easier to explain and have a new hunter use. I can take a new hunter out and explain the loading, firing and safety of a single shot shotgun in a minute or two and off we go! 
Lastly, I think the 20gauge slug guns they are making with a heavy bull barrel are just perfect for deer hunting. The heaviness really cuts down on the recoil, which is a good thing for newer, or recoil shy shooters. After a lot of contemplation, I borrowed a H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 20gauge for my daughter to use for the youth deer gun season. Good choice, she shot a 8pt buck through the heart at 60 yards, and she had never fired that gun before either. She only weighs about 80lbs and shenever even felt that recoil. Don't get me wrong, I love hunting with the muzzleloader, and I despise the auto loader slug guns I hear blasting 3 shots in 2 seconds. But, a single shot, that I can reload relatively quick and controlled, and possibly get another shot(if necessary) for myself, or a new hunter. That is golden! And the price is awfully hard to beat! For around $500 I will have 2 Slug Hunter 20gauges in my gun safe for the upcoming season. Deer of southern Ohio!! You have been warned......









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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Postalhunter1,

I really like the H&R Ultra Slugsters. I have both a 12 and a 20, they are very nice, accurate slug guns. I still hunt with a MZ most of time because of where I hunt is pretty open country where longer shots can be utilized. Most of my setups are positioned to provide a 140-150 yd shot. With a gun I just don't like getting too close to my work unless I have to. I always have my H&R's in the truck with me during the gun season along with my MZ's. Which one I hunt with on a given day is determined by my stand selection, most days the MZ gets to come out and play.

Awesome job by you and your daughter!!


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

hey
i bought my oldest son one of the new cva accura v2 guns last year. it is an awesome gun. the breach plug comes out with your fingers as advertized. so it is a breeze to clean at home or at the range. and with the new bergera barrel they are accurate. i got him the kit with the 3x10x44 scope and rings and the thumbhole stock and it comes with a soft sided case. the thumbhole stock works left or right hand.

if your looking to really upgrade then this is your gun. it has rubber pads at the grip points on the gun also. i have a tc encore and just cant justify the cost of the v2. but i do like the v2 much better.
sherman


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

I'll stick with my smooth bore 12ga. during gun.....hits everything I shoot at....out to 100yrds....that's about it anyway, for the woods I hunt.....good luck with your choice....but i would agree with Lundy too....your loads will do more then the gun change....not that I know anything about muzzle loading


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

sherman51 said:


> hey
> i bought my oldest son one of the new cva accura v2 guns last year. it is an awesome gun. the breach plug comes out with your fingers as advertized. so it is a breeze to clean at home or at the range. and with the new bergera barrel they are accurate. i got him the kit with the 3x10x44 scope and rings and the thumbhole stock and it comes with a soft sided case. the thumbhole stock works left or right hand.
> 
> if your looking to really upgrade then this is your gun. it has rubber pads at the grip points on the gun also. i have a tc encore and just cant justify the cost of the v2. but i do like the v2 much better.
> sherman


this is actually what im leaning towards. i love thumbhole stocks, im already familure with CVA and have only heard one bad thing about this rifle. the ramrod guides are plastic:S

and to be honest, if its raining out, ill take the shotgun im sure.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

thanks for all the replys, keep them coming. 

Kim, i plan on experimenting with different loads with the new rifle. powerbelts came with the optima and i just kept shooting them because they shoot great out of that rifle. no complaints at all with it. but i have a camo Nikon 3X9X50mm scope thats been screaming at me for a stainless/camo ML to mount


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Tom,

I'm sure you will like the V2, I have heard only good things about them.

It will look prettier than what you have now, be easier to clean, will shoot just as well, but won't shoot any better. But anything prettier around you is a good thing

That 50MM objective will raise the scope a little higher than I like but it will look very sharp on a thumbhole SS camo gun for sure.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Lundy said:


> But anything prettier around you is a good thing



everyone always hates on the good looking guy


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

ezbite said:


> everyone always hates on the good looking guy


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## AEFISHING (Apr 25, 2004)

I have tried most of the them and I like the TC triumph the best. A good old slug gun is still the best because less cleaning after the shot


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

here's a nice one for sale....cheap too....hurry it could be yours 









http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=220078


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

Tom...send me a PM when you decide what you want. I may be able to help you out price wise as long as it's a MZL.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i believe cabelas has just raised there price for the cva v2 thumbhole stock with the 3x10x44 scope to 616.00. you may want to wait for a sale on this gun. but if you really want to use your own scope you can get the gun alittle cheaper.
sherman


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## icefisherman4life (Aug 5, 2007)

I bought the tc encore pro hunter fx. I love it. 3 shots had me dialed in at 100 yards. I didnt shoot out any further just cuz i was in a hurry but i would be comfortable shooting at 200 yrds with it. i shot 150 grains of pyrodex with a 250 grain shockwave. cleaning it was a breeze also the quick breach thing is sweet also. Ive heard other guys saying they didnt like it but i def. do like it not tools required. I'll be using this instead of my slug gun next season


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

icefisherman4life said:


> I bought the tc encore pro hunter fx. I love it. 3 shots had me dialed in at 100 yards. I didnt shoot out any further just cuz i was in a hurry but i would be comfortable shooting at 200 yrds with it. i shot 150 grains of pyrodex with a 250 grain shockwave. cleaning it was a breeze also the quick breach thing is sweet also. Ive heard other guys saying they didnt like it but i def. do like it not tools required. I'll be using this instead of my slug gun next season


My friend has one of those and I've seen him hit at 250yds. He said it was kinda luck when he did it but that he was confident enough at 200yds. Those are amazing ML's!

Mr. A

(2013)
Bass: 0
catfish: 0
bluegill: 0
Other: 0


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

The TC Prohunter and the CVA V2 both use 28" barrels.

Both guns with the same load will be the same. Any MZ shooting the same load from a 28" barrel will be the same ballistics, no difference.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

ironman172 said:


> here's a nice one for sale....cheap too....hurry it could be yours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i wish someone would buy that thing, that guys annoying


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I can tell you one gun that I would not recommend. That would be a Knight arms ML. The company is out of business now. I got one as a christmas present a few years ago. It shoots great, at least as great as I can without a scope, and I love the feel of it and the recoil is not bad, but you have to have this red plastic casing that holds the primer cap in place and you need a special tool to get the cap in the casing. Also, you can't buy the plastic casings at the store anymore since the company is out of business. Had to order them online. I'm worried that I won't be able to find any casings or special tools for this gun if they break. The tools are just plastic and one is half broken already. Never had a problem with this gun firing and took 1 deer with it last year at 10 yds away.


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## Gills63 (Mar 29, 2012)

My Knight doesn't require anything special. Knight wolverine. 

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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

Knight opened their doors back up. I own a Knight, I've always just pushed the primers into the disc with my thumb. No problem.

http://www.knightrifles.com/


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Knight is very much open for business and has been for well over a year.

All pieces parts for their new and older guns are readily available.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I guess they have reopened their doors. It was 2 years ago when I was looking for those plastic casings and I figured they were closed for good. I have the Knight Wolverine too.


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## martinconcrete (Feb 4, 2006)

Kim is very right. I own 2 of the Savage ML's and they do take some time to dial them in. I did not have a lot of time to play with them this year so I broke out the trusted old Knight "original" disc ML. The thing is a tack driver, has been and still is. I ended up shooting a nice 10 point in the back yard on Sunday.

They do required a little more work to disassemble than the new ones, but it's really not that difficult. The only thing I was a little disappointed with was the performance of the power belt I was using. I hit him in the bread basket and the exit wound was the size of my pinky. I will be going back to a saboted bullet


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## surffishn (Jan 20, 2010)

I bought 2 of the Savage model 10 ML ll.One for my son inlaw and one for myself.Lot of info on the net.Used the smokeless powder recomended and correct sabot and bullet. They both were instant sucess.Shoot better than any ML on the market. I started shooting ML in 1975 and tried quiet a few. Chuck Hawks site has lots of info .They are now made in limited production.Ezbite if you would like to shoot mine we could meet sometime. I think you will like it A upgrade for sure.


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## surffishn (Jan 20, 2010)

Load for the Savage 10 ml ll. I use 43 grains of Accurate Arms 5744.MMP's short black sabot.toped with A hornady XTP (non-mangum) .452 250 gr bullet.the 300 grain will penetrate more. But I have not tried it yet as the deer I have shot dropped in tracks using the 250's. You can find the powder and bullets at a lot of sporting stores. The MMP sabots can be ordered direct from MMP.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

surffishn said:


> .Google A guy that goes by One Shot One Kill.He and his father helped design the Savage 10ML ll.


His name was Henry Ball, he died sometime over the last year or so. He was the patent holder on the design that Savage used in the production of thier MZ's

The first Savage ML I purchased was a Henry Ball Limited.


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

well after looking at many and holding many, many muzzleloaders... i chose the thompson center pro hunter endeavor, this rifle just comes up to my sholder and im on site... it just felt better than anything else ive touched. with the trade in on a safe queen SKS this baby came in at $600 now i need some glass heres a photo of it with my optima


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## Snook (Aug 19, 2008)

Nice gun there Ezbite...I think you will be happy with it.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Any opinion on the CVA Electras?
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=401634


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

i tried the savage model 10 a few yrs ago. but we could just never get together. it always seemed to fire at the range but after my 3rd misfire in the field i just wasnt happy with it. i switched it to black powder and gave it to my little brother. but he was getting pretty sick and he passed away before ever getting to shoot it. i was sopposed to get the gun back after his death but someone in the family went into his house and stole all his guns.

ezbite im sure you had some hard decisions to make. but how hard was it to choose the t/c over the cva v2?? im sure you will be happy with the t/c, it should be a top of the line gun for many years. but i really liked the thumb hole stock and the rubber pads and the easy removal breach plug on the v2. i would have had to really like the t/c to have chose it over the v2. but then thats why they have so many guns to choose from. because we are not all the same.

good shooting and good luck with your choice. i hope you harvest many nice deer.
sherman


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

Snook said:


> Nice gun there Ezbite...I think you will be happy with it.


thanks Lloyd, would of called you but it was a pretty good deal.


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## Goosekiller (Feb 24, 2013)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Any opinion on the CVA Electras?


I owned one and they shoot awesome! They problem though is when its really cold they will NOT shoot. I put gun in truck for about 15 minutes and it would shoot. Reloaded it and left it outside and again wouldnt shoot till I warmed it up in the truck.Took it back to gun shop and they pulled them from the rack and sent them all back for a refund. Plus with the way I understand Ohio law you must remove the battery before transporting and that is not a quick job.I now shoot the Bone Collector and wouldnt trade it for anything else.


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