# ODNR Deer Population Seminars Jan-24th



## Hardtop (Nov 24, 2004)

ODNR is hosting seminars to discuss our deer herd health and numbers at each of the district offices on Jan. 24th from 9am-1pm. they are open to the public but you need to call and register before the 23rd. They say they will open the discussion to allow "us" to share our thoughts and ask questions.This may be the opportunity so many have been asking for.... HT


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## the czar (Aug 14, 2008)

Anybody make it to these seminars? Curious to see what they said. 

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## Hardtop (Nov 24, 2004)

The meeting held at the District headquarters in Findlay, was well attended, including Steve Pollick who used to write for the Blade, now with Mike Moore at the Ohio Outdoor News, so you can expect to see some print about it there. The DOW team made a consistent effort to dispel any suggestions that the deer herd was in trouble. And there many challenges....I was rather shocked to hear them say they didn't have " any idea..." how many deer there are in the state, but try to convince everyone they know when it is going up or down. When presented with deer/car collision data from the Ohio Insurance Institute that show a steady decline since 2003 ( down over 36% in that decade) DOW folks said those numbers are not reliable....! They monitor stats from law enforcement.
Their over ridding message seemed to be that the problem is with lost/changing habitat, not over harvest, and that poor diet is responsible for low birth rates.... They are trying to modify the deer management zones to get a better handle on smaller parcel populations. They said there would be hunter surveys this summer to get opinions on the quality/health of the herd in each area so watch for that opportunity.
Several guys brought up the coyote problem and they said their own studies show that in some areas coyotes kill as many as 30% of the fawns.....but they showed zero interest in suggestions to consider a bounty or any other additional measures to slow the coyote population explosion. They instead said when the food source dries up, the coyote population will drop...... So all we have to do is wait until the deer are all gone, and there will be a few less coyotes...... That's big brothers reasoning....!


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## turkeyt (Apr 13, 2006)

What did you expect them say? They are not going to admit that they are unsure or do not have a clue. The DNR is a team of players like any company. The company is always positive and optimistic and never admits failure. Huh, you know like the government. They stay to their philosophy and do not stray to one side or another no matter what happens.
The only thing the DNR has stuck to is the one buck limit. That sounds good but, hunters like to hunt and shooters like to shoot something. The DNR appeased those people and started selling multiple doe tags. That satisfied the shooters but the deer numbers decreased in areas where hunting is allowed. The areas where hunting is not allowed or back yard woodlots is the problem. Those areas have a lot of deer and no way to hunt them. The only way the deer herd will expand to hunted areas is go back to one deer either sex. When you shoot your one deer then go fishing or trap the rest of the year. Better yet, go shoot those yotes that are killing the deer. Don't wait on the DNR to take action. Hunters have to control the deer herd. Just shoot one deer!!

Ever notice this about some people: Guy goes to the sporting goods shop and there is big sale going on. Guy walks over and sees waders on sale for 19.95. Man these are top of the line and usually cost 199.99. So, guy does the math and he loads up the cart with 5 pair. You ask what's that got to do with deer hunting?? Nothing, but what in the world does a person need with 5 pairs of waders or say 5 deer. Huh, anyone like that??


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## Hardtop (Nov 24, 2004)

Many people do use deer as a staple food source, and they are within the regulations to do so..... I have killed more than one some years myself. I'm not sure hunters are to blame here. , and I don't buy their line about poor habitat as a reason for the decline. There is only one observable environmental condition that has changed in the last decade. That is the abundance of coyotes eating our fawns each spring, even DOW is now admitting that we could be loosing as many as 30%, that's a bunch and with the deer herd getting smaller and the coyote population rising , it doesn't take a math wiz to figure out the problem could reach epidemic levels without some control agent..

We have owned and managed a 160 acre parcel in Perry Co. for 25yrs,and seen it go from deer sightings every morning and evening in the opens and an occasional coyote howl, to very few deer sightings and coyotes every night. We have a neighbor kid trapping them for us this year and he has maybe three, but that won't fix the problem. I would a welcome participant in a state wide effort to raise funds to support a hunter organized bounty on yotes........and I know many other who would do the same. We all love to be in the outdoors, and there is virtually zero regulations on coyote hunting.....If serious deer hunters just took it on themselves to start sitting in trees away form deer seasons, with the right equipment to kill these critters and kill one coyote for every deer they intend to harvest, State wide we could make a difference.....


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## the czar (Aug 14, 2008)

Try to feed 3 or 4 kids. 5 deer last 6 months not like your getting 100 lb of meat off a deer.i do agree hunters have power for population control if you think your area is getting low stop shooting does .I've owned sane 50ac for 19 years. We average 6 deer a year over that time some years it 2 some its 12. Just never know. Good luck on up coming season guys if there is a survey from dnr fill it out and express your concerns 

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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Why should ODNR be concerned with the ever increasing yote population when the yotes are helping ODNR do exactly what ODNR admittedly wants to do....reduce Ohio's deer herd. 
While ODNR keeps talking that Ohio's deer herd is not in jeopardy, I think it's very important that we remember, once again, that ODNR is also throwing all the deer in the city parks and 'no hunting' areas into the pot when talking about 'Ohio's deer herd' as a whole. And we must also keep in mind that cities keep annexing more and more moving the 'no hunting in city limits' policies further and further into outlying surrounding areas. The City of Cols. has greatly expanded over the last 10-15yrs annexing property in every direction. These 'no hunting' suburbs have huge deer populations that are thrown into the figure for Ohio's total deer population. So are the accident reports from these areas used to help figure the total Ohio deer population and help set bag limits for different parts of the state. One can assume that other cities(Cinn., Cleveland etc) have done the same. 

With these things in mind, obviously the deer are being taken from rural hunting areas. Couple that with the increasing yote problem, it really doesn't take a degree in biology to figure out that the deer herd in rural areas will continue to decrease. 

ODNR is right about one thing. The yotes will leave as soon as the food source dries up. For those living in the suburbs and inner city, that's not very good news. My advice would be to keep a close eye on your little furry friends and small children. As the rural deer herds keep decreasing due to the excessive bag limits and increasing yote population, the yotes will follow the food to the city's and surrounding 'no hunting' suburbs where the deer are flourishing. 
The last few weeks I've had the unfortunate opportunity to spend a lot of time at Mt. Carmel East Hosp. visiting a friend of mine. Wish I could sit in the back lot of the hosp. and hunt. Saw more deer there on hosp. grounds in the last two weeks then I've seen here in the middle of woods in the last two years combined. My buddy joked about me sneaking his bow in so he could hunt from his room window. Ha!


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

Dear ODNR,

Please follow this thread from the last 2 years with nearly 7000 views and hundreds of replies... Thought the elimination of some antlerless tags was a good idea last year but now you must take step two. You have got to get an understanding of your deer population ratio to hunter access. Until you fully grasped that situation you are fooling nobody but yourself with your fake numbers. 

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=246208;)


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## Bazzin05 (Feb 2, 2011)

To the people that say the unhuntable areas are included in these counts. In the Cincinnati area all the parks are now more heavily hunted than the private land... All city parks have hunting raffles for hunters to access the land, and the Hamilton county parks are being hunted by raffle along with the rangers going out at night and shooting them with bait piles and riffles. They have all but eliminated the herds inside/around all of the parks in the Cincinnati area. Also all of the state parks have hunting permitted too.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

One of the directions of the ODNR that I have noticed is the one that troubles me the most. In the name of simplicity and service to the hunters we have lost sight of the actual numbers of deer being checked. It was just a few years ago that you could stop in at your local check station and compare their numbers on a big board of deer checked so far for the year or day and compare it to the same day last season. You saw the deer, you knew the people checking them in and you knew the numbers were upfront because Joe and Mary at the bait shop kept track of them and you trusted them. But today the report is made by phone or on a computer and who knows for sure if they are good numbers or not. 

Same story with the special hunts at the various locations around the state, if you applied and didn't get called then you could see who did because a list of those selected was posted on the DNR website. That information is now withheld and you can no longer see that three members of the same household were selected for two different hunts..

If you own the information then it can be anything you say it is until someone proves it wrong and with no information to go on now other than what we are given by the DNR then there is little chance of disproving the report. However as many have stated this year actual observations and experience does not bear out the situations as presented by the DNR.

The population is down in many areas, why that is I do not know I don't think it was all from hunting pressure because we did not see a large increase in the harvest. Now in some parts of the state the population remains level or maybe even increased but that I feel is the exception not the rule. At any rate we are now outside with the door closed and someone is feeding what they want us to believe out the crack under the door.

Now with all this said, I only hunt public land and have done so for the last 50 years, and I have done quite well at it hunting some years 4 states. The numbers of deer are down in all of those areas now and places that used to be consistent producers are now trackless long days of seeing very little sign. In the Allegany Forest we would sometimes have bad years but could attribute that to a harsh winter with lots of ice on the mountains which was deadly for up to 75% of the herd. In New York again weather with deep snow would be the biggest killer but the herd recovered fairly quickly. It did not continue a downward trend such as we have seen the last three years here. 

Now as far as killing a doe, a single doe does not hurt the herd all that much or does it. Given that each doe will normally drop twins in the spring, you have actually taken 3 deer out of the herd come May, and 9 the following year and 25 the following year, so maybe that one doe is more important than thought. Well nuff said from my corner. Not sure what I'll do yet come this fall, my buddy has a nice place in Idaho over run with mule deer, might go west .


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

hopin to cash said:


> Dear ODNR,
> 
> Please follow this thread from the last 2 years with nearly 7000 views and hundreds of replies... Thought the elimination of some antlerless tags was a good idea last year but now you must take step two. You have got to get an understanding of your deer population ratio to hunter access. Until you fully grasped that situation you are fooling nobody but yourself with your fake numbers.
> 
> http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=246208;)


Did you send a letter to the dnr or are you just bringing up your thread again?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

> Orig. posted by *Bazzin05*:
> 
> To the people that say the unhuntable areas are included in these counts. In the Cincinnati area all the parks are now more heavily hunted than the private land... All city parks have hunting raffles for hunters to access the land, and the Hamilton county parks are being hunted by raffle along with the rangers going out at night and shooting them with bait piles and riffles. They have all but eliminated the herds inside/around all of the parks in the Cincinnati area. Also all of the state parks have hunting permitted too.


Glad the Cinncy. area has politicians running it like it should be. 

Unfortunately, the City of Cols. is ran by Mayor Mike Coleman that speaks with forked tongue when it comes to hunting as well as gun ownership period. He claims to be for hunting and private gun ownership but his actions over the last several years has spoken volumes to the contrary.
No hunting in the parks plus no CCW in the Cols. city parks equates to the very high possibility of one or two things happening when you visit them:

1) you will get run over by deer

2) you will be accosted by a thug or get in the middle of some gang warfare and left standing/laying there unarmed with no way of defending yourself/family. 

...and yes, these un-huntable deer, along with accidents involving these deer are included into the mix when figuring the states overall deer herd.


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## turkeyt (Apr 13, 2006)

I have seen enough deer in the last few years hanging out in areas close to housing, close to town and posted land, if laid end to end would stretch for miles. I could have loaded a dump truck full by shooting of my deck this winter but, that's illegal. The game has adapted pretty good. Probably a lot better than humans.


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## bmbyslyr85 (Jan 28, 2015)

all these people complaining about deer numbers maybe should hunt a lil harder I hunt all over the state and saw above average numbers and had no problem filling 7 tags which all of will be gone by opening day of bow!


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## bmbyslyr85 (Jan 28, 2015)

and how many you guys complaining about coyotes actually go and do something about it? maybe the state could drop a deer of in your mailbox and kill a yote for ya!


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

bmbyslyr85 said:


> all these people complaining about deer numbers maybe should hunt a lil harder I hunt all over the state and saw above average numbers and had no problem filling 7 tags which all of will be gone by opening day of bow!


Ok great... you the man... my thread and suggestions apply to those hunters who spend every hour they can away from family, work, God, farm and any other responsibility to chase wild game in this case deer. 

For you Bobk I will make sure as we did last year that the state is aware and linked to any comments made here with respect to hunters opinions of deer populations and growth rates. Thank you for your input and suggestion sir.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

bmbyslyr85 said:


> all these people complaining about deer numbers maybe should hunt a lil harder I hunt all over the state and saw above average numbers and had no problem filling 7 tags which all of will be gone by opening day of bow!


Welcome to the site, I see you joined yesterday. Congratulations on your very good season. 

I suppose you are right, I don't hunt as hard as I did 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago or 40 or 50 or even 60 years ago when I killed my first buck with a 30-30 Winchester in the mountains of Pennsylvania. But after all these years and dragging 200+ deer out to the road, I guess it's time to slow down a little. Oh and more than a few bush dogs have felt the pinch of my .243 as they came to investigate my home made rabbit in distress made from a couple of whittled out sticks and a rubber band. 

Once again congrats and enjoy your venison, I started giving the majority of mine to needy families in our area several years ago.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

The funny thing to me is, starting in May 2014 to present, I've received 3 emails reminding me to buy my licenses and tags and 3 emails reminding me to fill out the "Deer Hunter Effort and Harvest Survey". Not one mention of this "Seminar" that occurred on Jan. 24th.

Kinda tells me our money is more important to them than our opinion. Does anybody know where to find a breakdown of license sales for last year? I spent an hour looking on line, trying about 10 different searches, all fruitless.


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## bmbyslyr85 (Jan 28, 2015)

thank you and I spend a lot of time in the woods that's for sure, even the off season is busy. I took these deer all on different farms 3 or 4 of which came from public land. P


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

hopin to cash said:


> Do they ever reply to you? Much of what I ask them never gets answered.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

bmbyslyr85 said:


> and how many you guys complaining about coyotes actually go and do something about it? maybe the state could drop a deer of in your mailbox and kill a yote for ya!


wow, that's impressive.


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

bmbyslyr85 said:


> thank you and I spend a lot of time in the woods that's for sure, even the off season is busy. I took these deer all on different farms 3 or 4 of which came from public land. P


I have shot many deer over the years and probably can remember about everyone of them when and where but you can't recall if you shot 3 or 4 on public land this year? Can you recall if all were legally tagged? Can you recall if any had antlers? Could you share how many were shot by bow, crossbow, muzzle loader or gun?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

> 01-28-2015 11:48 PM
> *bmbyslyr85* and how many you guys complaining about coyotes actually go and do something about it? maybe the state could drop a deer of in your mailbox and kill a yote for ya!
> 
> 01-28-2015 11:45 PM
> *bmbyslyr85* all these people complaining about deer numbers maybe should hunt a lil harder I hunt all over the state and saw above average numbers and had no problem filling 7 tags which all of will be gone by opening day of bow!


 
Had quite a lengthy response to the above post but decided not to send it as I kinda got on a roll and the post turned more negative than positive.

What I will respond is people with this mindset is exactly what ODNR and the big insurance companies love and have depended on for years to reduce Ohio's deer herd to the numbers they are today. 

Unfortunately, that same mindset, that may have been okay when our herd was much higher, hasn't changed with some that refuse to believe our deer herd has severely dwindled(especially in many rural counties) even though all facts point towards the decline... And... even though ODNR has even came out and stated the numbers have been almost reduced to where they want them...AND...even though various people/outdoorsmen that actually live in these rural hunting areas are reporting the huge reduction in the deer/deer sign they see on their properties.
With all the facts pointing towards the obvious reduction in Ohio's deer herd, it's hard to come up with a reason for the mindset some still have towards feeling the 'want' to kill as many deer as the ridiculous bag limits still allow. Other then the 'want' for these people to kill as many deer as they can is more important or greater to them than their compassion for conservation as a whole. 

*bmbyslyer85*,

In response to 'doing something about the yote population rather then complaining about it'.
FWIW, I logged more hours between 2012-14 hunting yotes then deer. From reading some of the posts in various threads, I would say others are doing their part as well. Maybe you should research that topic here before posting statements like you have.

Also, assuming you don't know everyone here, nor do you know their hunting habits or the time they spend afield, your statements are bold. I have no doubt that if I, as well as many others here set their minds to filling every tag they were allowed by ODNR's regs. in all the different counties and seasons they could. Given all the facts about Ohio's greatly reducing deer herd, the hunting 'prowess' of all individuals, including yourself is not the issue. 
The issue IS, Ohio's deer herd is obviously rapidly dwindling and if we hunters don't start policing ourselves by not going out and filling every possible tag we are afforded by ODNR(again regardless if we can), we will see times that some of us are old enough to remember. Hunting from start of bow till the end of bow(and every season in between) and being lucky to see a deer.
Maybe those that have never experienced those times take our wildlife for granted and think this will never happen again. 
Maybe those still going out killing every deer they can are doing so cause they think it must be okay to do so cause ODNR is saying so. 

After all, if that time does comes we can blame ODNR for it... or find something else to blame. I'm sure we hunters will come up with some kind of excuse rather then manning up and putting the blame where it belongs....directly on that 'mindset' being greater of wanting to fill every tag ODNR says we can rather then seeing what's actually going on around us.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

Very good post "fastwater", I do remember the days of the late 50s through the 60s of walking for miles across farms (which nobody had a problem with back then) looking for a deer track. The deer herd made a remarkable growth from that time until now. Now we are on a downhill slide from that growth and it must be stopped. And as you state we hunters and outdoors men are the only ones that can do it. As I stated earlier I am not sure that hunting caused the type of decline that I have seen, I believe that it may have been coupled with other factors , Yotes, disease , lack of habitat (which I don't buy into) and other factors. But one thing is certain we can surely stall the regrowth by the "Brown is Down" philosophy.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

> Orig. posted by *FAB*:
> 
> ...As I stated earlier I am not sure that hunting caused the type of decline that I have seen, I believe that it may have been coupled with other factors , Yotes, disease , lack of habitat (which I don't buy into) and other factors. But one thing is certain we can surely stall the regrowth by the "Brown is Down" philosophy.


We are surely in agreement on this. 

The ever increasing yote population(with not enough control) is a very big factor. As far as disease's and hard winter goes, IMO, these are two factors that take their share of deer every year but really haven't changed over the years. I suppose it would be safe to say that we have, and always will write off a certain percentage of loss to these two elements. Considering this, even when our deer herd was flourishing, these two factors were still present and our herd was not only sustaining, but increasing.

Again, IMO, the two huge differences I've seen over the years in the time our deer herd peaked till now is the excessive bag limits and the ever increasing yote population. From what I see at the farms I hunt, as well as hear from other hunters in various counties, the yotes are starting to affect the turkey pop. as well.
We can help to control the yote pop. by hunting/trapping them
We can surely control the number of deer we kill regardless of the set bag limits.
Problem is, is there enough that care enough to do so or are we just going to continue on the same path as we have been till things are like you, I and some others here remember very well?


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

I lived in Missouri from about 1984 for 10 years. We had a very large coyote population, so much so that local farmers used carbide cannons to keep them away from little pigs, lambs etc. But with the large population of Yotes we also had a robust deer herd that remained stable in the face of that sure predation. We also had a buck only one deer gun season that helped. We were allowed a choice during bow but still only one deer per year. I have no doubt that yotes take up to 50% of the fawns each year. And I hunt them and try to keep their numbers in check. The part I don't buy into is DNR's thought that loss of habitat has caused the decline. Deer are very adaptable animals as witnessed by the fact they come to my door step to eat the bird seed I put out for the birds. My thoughts are simply put if you run water into the sink with the drain plugged the water will level off at the overflow but if you also open the drain the sink will go down to nothing even though the same amount of water is still running into it. I know it's kind of a dumb comparison but by killing as many does as we have been we are in effect opening the drain on the population. Close it off maybe just a little and they will recover and maintain. I think maximum doe harvest should not exceed one animal per season along with a buck if you are so lucky. One deer per season, ie. archery, gun, muzzle loader would be an improvement. Anything but the current total drain plug out approach that we see now. Much of the DNR's regulations are based on recommendations of the insurance institute, the Farm Bureau and a couple of other interested parties, however we control 100% of the funding for the department all their programs and the future of wildlife in Ohio, I believe it is time for the DNR to take and active interest in our concerns , more than just a meeting to hear them, they have to be acted upon. 

Two years ago I thought Mike Tonkovich was doing a good job with the department and I told him so. It is close to time for me to let him know that I have changed my mind. We will see what the next set of regulations and bag limits bring before passing that judgement.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

bmbyslyr85 said:


> all these people complaining about deer numbers maybe should hunt a lil harder I hunt all over the state and saw above average numbers and had no problem filling 7 tags which all of will be gone by opening day of bow!


Do you work for the DNR? The DNR and you are the only people I hear saying the deer herd is still high. 

FWIW, if I remember correctly, last year there were 5 deer killed and 7 coyotes on our farm. 2 deer and 4 coyotes killed on another farm I hunt. The neighbors killed 3 deer and 5 coyotes. This year, we didn't see any coyotes and only 1 buck and 3 big does with no fawns. 

At what point are you doing more for the wildlife than those paid to protect it? Maybe the DoW could start a bounty program where you get a free hunting license or deer tag for every 2 coyotes killed? Ahh, never mind. That would cut to deeply into their favorite resource, our money.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

I don't agree with the 'lack of habitat' crap either. For one, if this was the case then all the city parks and the suburban 'no hunting' areas wouldn't be over run with deer as they currently are.

Plain and simple...over predation is what is happening. We just simply cannot keep killing 5-10 deer a year and think we are not depleting the herd. ODNR under the pressure of the big insurance company's have(and are) using the greed of us hunters to accomplish exactly what they want to do. And in the end, when the deer are down to the secretive levels ODNR wants, a fella will have to live in the woods to shoot a deer cause he'll have 5,000 other guys out there chasing that one deer per 500acres that exists. I'll say this, when that time comes, bet I'll be able to shoot a deer if ones around here. I'm retired, love to hunt, and am blessed to live in the middle of deep woods. If there's deer around, they will give me a chance at them eventually. My concern is not about whether I will be able to shoot a deer or not. And my attitude is not a 'I'll get mine' attitude. Though since I actually live here, my chances of shooting deer every year is probably greater than those that have to travel to hunt. But like many others here, my concern is for the overall declining deer herd in the rural areas now , for the near future and the direction it's going at such a rapid pace. Obviously faster than ODNR is aware of and from some of these posts, faster than some hunters think it's happening as well. 

We have to start thinking that for every doe we kill, the amount of offspring we are eliminating from the future herd for the total life of that one doe we killed. Kill 5-10 doe a year and what has one hunter alone eliminated from the herd for years to come.

Once again, all this really doesn't take a degree in biology to figure out. If more deer are being killed than what is being reproduced, the obvious reduction is going to happen. And again, ODNR has admitted and openly stated their intent to substantially lower the population. How else do we figure they have accomplished this task without us hunters doing it for them. bottom line is they set the bag limits, we have killed the deer lowering the deer herd to what it is today. So their mission has been accomplished. It's time to back off on the bag limits to let the herd re-stabilize in the rural areas.
Either that or stop including the deer in the city limits and 'no hunting' areas as well as the accidents caused by these deer in the overall deer herd population.

All we have to do is look at the declining overall kill rate for the last several years. And for those that actually live in rural areas...well, we have not only seen the decline in the actual spotting of deer themselves but deer sign as well.


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## Plantman (Nov 26, 2005)

Article in todays Columbus Dispatch about the decline in the deer harvest numbers. I found it on my yahoo home page.
261,000 deer were harvested in 2009-2010. This year they predict 175,000 deer will be harvested. Down 8.9% from just last year.That's a reduction of 86,000 in only five years. At this rate the harvest will be below 150,000 by 2020.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

> Orig. posted by *Plantman*:
> 
> 261,000 deer were harvested in 2009-2010. This year they predict 175,000 deer will be harvested. Down 8.9% from just last year.That's a reduction of 86,000 in only five years. At this rate the harvest will be below 150,000 by 2020.


These are the facts. And they're from ODNR themselves. Mind you that ODNR has admitted that their 'total deer herd' numbers of 600,000 to 650,000 MAY be inflated. 

Truth is, they don't know how big the deer herd is here. Either that, or they are inflating the number to justify the ridiculous bag limits they have to satisfy the ins.companies. I'd much rather want to believe they just don't know due to the fact they no longer due fly overs of each county but rely heavily on accident reports to estimate. 

Thanks for the updated info Plantman. 

Time to go... Super Bowl and 'hotwing' time.


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

fastwater said:


> These are the facts. And they're from ODNR themselves. Mind you that ODNR has admitted that their 'total deer herd' numbers of 600,000 to 650,000 MAY be inflated.
> 
> Truth is, they don't know how big the deer herd is here. Either that, or they are inflating the number to justify the ridiculous bag limits they have to satisfy the ins.companies. I'd much rather want to believe they just don't know due to the fact they no longer due fly overs of each county but rely heavily on accident reports to estimate.
> 
> ...


fastwater, you always make great posts, and i agree the bag limits are too liberal, but... according to odnr the percentage of people that harvest more than 2 deer a year is very very very small. something seems to be amiss, the deer herd is shrinking at a rapid rate, the bag limits have been quite liberal, but yet the percentage of people taking multiple deer is very low. makes me wonder how accurate our current check system is, and how honest our hunting community is.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

I think the antlerless take was somewhere around 109,000 in 2013 and 90 something thousand this year. if you consider that these does would normally have produced twins in the spring then in reality 327,000 deer were not in the count come spring and for 2015 with that kill included that count jumps to somewhere around 900,000 deer gone. seems impossible but if you do the math on it and I only figured a 150% growth because some of last years fawns were bucks that did not produce fawns. But they were about 50,000 bucks that you did not get to see. Don't kill the does for one year and your deer herd will triple. Kill as many as we have been reporting and it can not sustain it's self.


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

https://www.facebook.com/ohiodnradmin?fref=ts

Will start putting all our comments here also... thanks all


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

The following article appeared in the last issue of "Wide Open Spaces"

*The debate at the Ohio Deer Summit last week was primarily on the size of the deer herd in Ohio. 

Hunters, farmers, and biologists all met at the Ohio Deer Summit on Saturday and argued over the size of the Ohio deer herd.

Mike Tonkovich, in charge of managing the Ohio deer population, told the eager crowd that the Ohio deer herd is shrinking by design to benefit the Buckeye State in the long run.

Tonkovich told reporters, &#8220;If I&#8217;m hated equally by both hunters and farmers, then I must be doing my job.&#8221;

Tonkovich said the Ohio deer population grew beyond its capacity, meaning less food for bucks which results in fewer fawns reproduced. He argued for the current policies that will result in higher quality deer, not just larger quantities.

Denny Malloy, director of Whitetail Unlimited, said Ohio&#8217;s management plan is too akin to neighboring states, many of which have seen a decline in deer population. This year Ohio hunters harvested 170,000 deer, this number down from the record set in 2009-2010 with 261,260 harvests.

Malloy told reporters, &#8220;We&#8217;re seeing (wildlife agencies) creating new science and coming up with new management policies for deer. They&#8217;ve created a new suit when the old suit had worked pretty well (for sportsmen). Maybe there&#8217;s a problem with the new science. Wildlife officials have to remember the wildlife agency works for us, the people who buy licenses and permits, not farmers.&#8221;

Bob McKinney, a landowner and farmer of Freeport, agreed with Tonkovich;

We need to kill six to 10 deer each year to keep the population in check, and some years as many as 13 deer. I have 14 trail cameras set up. Because of the hunting pressure during the early archery and black powder rifle seasons, I can tell you that 90 percent of the deer are nocturnal by the time the gun season rolls around.

Tonkovich said they have plans to do more research come spring, and plan on speaking to both hunters and farmers about future deer conservation.*


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

FAB said:


> *
> Tonkovich told reporters, &#8220;If I&#8217;m hated equally by both hunters and farmers, then I must be doing my job.&#8221;
> 
> Tonkovich said the Ohio deer population grew beyond its capacity, meaning less food for bucks which results in fewer fawns reproduced. He argued for the current policies that will result in higher quality deer, not just larger quantities.
> ...


Soooo, if Tonkavich was loved by hunters and landowners, he's not doing his job? That's a brilliant statement.

I don't know about you, but I would think a starving deer would have small antlers. I don't think I've ever killed a doe that didn't have fat. To me, that kinda contradicts the idea the herd grew beyond its capacity.

I guess, unlike their daytime counterparts, these nocturnal deer don't leave tracks or eat acorns, and I might add, invisible to our infrared trail cameras. Huh, who knew?

I hope they do some real research and actually tell the truth for a change.


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

I Fish said:


> Soooo, if Tonkavich was loved by hunters and landowners, he's not doing his job? That's a brilliant statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When the share holders involved have opposite goals, then yes. Management is making sure all involved are equally unhappy.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

I've been hunting a long time and in the last few years I have heard more than once the expression " the deer have gone nocturnal". I guess I just don't understand that phenomenon. A good friend and hunting buddy of mine told me last year that there were deer where he was hunting , that they saw them on the cams but they didn't "come out" until after dark. I asked him "come out of where" . They didn't go into holes or caves or climb trees nor do they have the ability to become invisible, they are still out. Deer are by nature creatures living on the edge, the edge of fields the edge of swamps the edge of oak flats, the edge of day into night and night into day. 

Yep for sure after the rut starts cooling down and the Bucks are not looking night and day for does then they will tend to lay down and stay put for a longer period of time. And they will not come by your stand as much as they did during the first weeks of November. But they are still there. And one of two things are going happen if you go looking for him, you will either see him and get a shot or he will smell, hear or see you first and be gone, but someone else may now see him and get a shot. So with that said and the number of guys you see prowling the brush during gun season with no one seeing anything or very little means only one thing, they are not there.


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

I think that Tonkavich should read the Division of Wildlife publications before making comments on the population exceeding carrying capacity. This was printed by the division in 2011 "populations have never exceeded the biological carrying capacity of the habitat". That is from publication 5304 (R811). So which is it?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

> *Tonkovich told reporters, &#8220;If I&#8217;m hated equally by both hunters and farmers, then I must be doing my job.&#8221; *


And of course you can bet the big insurance companies with all their political clout was not mentioned at all. But rest assured, with the route Tonkovich and ODNR have chosen to take in reducing our deer herd, the insurance companies are very pleased.

If his above, arrogant statement is how he feels, he's clearly forgotten his role as a public servant. He has clearly been in his position too long and has forgotten that he works for the people. Not the other way around. Maybe it's past time for him to be replaced. 

The rest of the statements including the deer growing beyond capacity, to just about everything his sidekick McKinney said is just sickening and very insulting to the intelligence of those that live in rural areas and spend time in the woods. 
The statement made by McKinney about '90% of the deer going nocturnal by gun season' ...I have to ask, where is the sign of these nocturnal deer? How come the last 2-3 years deer tracks are lessor and lessor? How come my food as well as hunting plots I've planted for the last 14 yrs have less and less browse done to them? How come there are less and less dropping, scrapes and rubs? How come when I'm in the woods gathering firewood throughout the year, I don't see near as many deer nor sign? How come on the trail cams (yea, ours work at night as well) show less and less deer? 

How can Tonkovich even suggest the deer herd outgrew its capacity when he also made the statement in other previous discussions that ODNR don't really have an accurate count on the deer herd?

Fed up with the excuses, lies and sidestepping political talk. 

Want to get real about things?
Lets investigate and get some real answers to just how much influence the insurance companies have on the decisions made by Tonkovich and the ODNR. 

FWIW, I sent Tonkovich's and McKinney's comments to 5 different property owners/hunters in 3 different counties. Like myself, even though they all own property and are not required to buy hunting license/deer permits, they do. They also require their family members to do the same as they feel supporting ODNR and conservation is the proper thing to do. 
They and I are seriously considering not only not purchasing our deer permits for the 2015 year, but not letting or allowing deer hunting on our properties for the upcoming season. If all of us(property owners and family members) decide to do this, we figure there will be 26 total less deer permits purchased next year. The best part about this is there will be no deer killed on any of these properties. 

We are all in agreement that by now, it's apparent that Tonkovich, as well as other decision makers at ODNR seems to support the wants of others rather than the outdoorsmen that supports them through our purchase of hunting license/deer permits. Let the insurance companies pay the salaries of those decision makers at ODNR. 

Out of the 5, the three of us that continually plant crops and prune our lands for the wildlife are going to continue to do so. We not only love to hunt but we love to watch the wildlife as well. Like one of the guys said " don't need a hunting lic. to hunt with a camera".


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## supercanoe (Jun 12, 2006)

That is a good idea to consider Fastwater. I have decided to reduce my doe harvest (and tags purchased) for several years now. If we all bought one less tag per year that may open the eyes of some employees of the DOW. Money may be the only way to make a change in their mindset. The comment equating hatred and doing his job is totally out of line for a state employee in his position.


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

We've heard enough from this nut case on our deer population. Who appointed him to office and what do we do now to get rid of him? He speaks senseless "BS" like a true politician.

In 2005 there were 423 Big typical whitetails shot in Ohio and 3 big non-typical.

In 2013 there were 27 Big typical whitetails shot in Ohio and 9 big non-typical.

In 2005 total checked in was 209,513.

In 2013 total checked in was 191,459.

Where I work the upper management team would have me fired for results like this!!!


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

> Orig. posted by *hopin to cash*:
> 
> In 2005 there were 423 Big typical whitetails shot in Ohio and 3 big non-typical.
> 
> ...


ODNR will not get rid of Tonkovich or even change their admitted strategy in further reducing herd size as long as they feel there are not enough outdoorsman willing to demand change. Once again, they are banking on the selfishness of many hunters that have the mindset of 'having' to hunt, 'having' to shoot as many deer as allowed. In other words, ODNR will continue to use us against ourselves cause it's worked so good in the past. 

I don't think it needs any explanation to the fact of the political clout the insurance companies have in our society as a whole. They set the standards for our medical care, they micro-manage doctors in the care of their patients as well as putting pressure on doctors and hospitals trying to shorten stays for patience in hospitals. 

Should we be fools and blinded in thinking that the insurance companies aren't using their $ as well as political clout to influence this topic as well?

There have been many past meetings in which ODNR officials have vaguely explained the influence of the insurance companies on ODNR's decisions in which the number of reported auto accidents per year is greatly used to not only help determine herd size but set bag limits as well. I really don't think we are aware to just how great of an influence insurance companies are having on ODNR's decision. Furthermore, don't think there is going to be anyone from ODNR admitt just how much influence they have.

What I, and many other rural property owner ARE seeing with our own eyes is the continuing depletion of our deer herd in the rural areas. And what we hear when we have brought this to ODNR's attention over the last few years is excuses , double talk and just plain ignorant responses that we are expected to believe like we are ignorant. Couple that with the most current arrogant statement Tonkovich made to the press, it's not hard to see that one influence ODNR and Tonkovich aren't weighing nearly enough is the influence of us outdoorsman. 

Why aren't they...don't know. Maybe it's cause history shows we won't band together in ways to make our voices heard. Maybe it's cause ODNR figures hunters won't take a year or so and not purchase deer permits or shoot any deer.

One thing we outdoorsman can bank on is the fact that until our voice and political clout outweighs that of the other driving forces that are currently influencing ODNR's decision to continue reducing the herd, things will continue at the 'other driving forces' whims.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

This article from Outdoor news.Deer kill in line with goal, DNR says
By Jeffrey L. Frischkorn Contributing Writer
Posted on January 29, 2015

Athens, Ohio  Each side in the ongoing roil regarding whether Ohio hunters are shooting too many does will find ammunition in the preliminary final four-day statewide muzzleloading deer-hunting season.

This season ran Jan. 2 through Jan. 5 and a preliminary 13,726 animals were taken. That figure represents a 16.63-percent decline from the same seasons 2014 total of 16,464 harvested deer, which in itself was a marked decline from the 2013 seasons tallied harvest.

Least concerned of all that a decline is being noted in the harvest statistics book is the Ohio DNR Division of Wildlife.

All for one simple, scientifically sound, biologically based reason: that being, all along the wildlife divisions main goal has been to reduce the states deer herd, which numbered in the several hundreds of thousands before the starting gun  and starting longbow/crossbow  were fired. Or at least thats the agencys spin on the subject.

Yes, poor weather played a factor in the muzzleloading seasons harvest drop, but then so did an entire possible bag of ingredients, wildlife division officials argue.

Among them were expanding opportunities for deer hunters that included a two-day October antlerless-only/muzzleloading only deer-hunting season.

Thing is, the just concluded statewide any-deer-goes muzzle-loading season continues to demonstrate the wildlife divisions commitment and success in reigning in the deer herd where necessary, the agencys lead on Ohios deer management program says.

We set out to do what we had to do: Get the deer populations within targeted goals, said Mike Tonkovich, the wildlife divisions deer management administrator. The bottom line is that we have fewer deer; theres no magic about that.

Nor secret, as the wildlife division has long maintained the necessity of aligning county-by-county deer populations with landowner preferences and the desire to provide recreational viewing and hunting opportunities, as well as do what is good for the herd.

Part of the problem, Tonkovich said, is that for too many years the wildlife division simply used a scalpel where a meat cleaver was more warranted. At least in much of the state and at least at one time, anyway, says Tonkovich.

Tonkovich also said that the agency, hunters, and landowners all must note how change comes about through a variety of means, each of which is a contributing factor in any deer-herd reduction process.

And in Ohio, the entire package is working, with Tonkovich noting that for the fifth year in a row the wildlife division was able to reduce the number of deer-damage permits it issues.

Such a cut shows that farmers are experiencing less crop damage simply because fewer deer are around to do the feasting, Tonkovich said.

And to help assure that Ohios deer herd did not once more begin the climb to the glory days many hunters pine for, the wildlife division was shooting for a 5- to 10-percent decline in the total 2014-2015 all-deer-seasons harvest.

And were pretty much right there now at 9 percent, said John Windau, the wildlife divisions designated media spokesman on deer.

Such it is then that deer management becomes a delicate balancing act: ensuring that farmers arent being denied a profit because their grain and other crops are being eaten by an overabundant deer population, that fewer bucks are being struck by fewer Buicks, and at the same time striving to provide enough animals so that hunters dont get bored while on their stands.

Thus, accumulating scientific data, assembling opinions from the various constituencies, and gauging what is best for the deer herds health are all items that will get stirred into the management policy pot later this year, Tonkovich said.

I suspect Im going to be buying a lot of pencils to do a lot of figuring in the goal-setting process, he said.

Even so, Tonkovich says that pressure has been building for a long time by a pretty substantial segment of the states deer-hunting community to put more animals back into the woods and fields.

Yet let everyone know that no one side will dominate the conversation, now or in the months to come, Tonkovich said.

The squeaky wheel doesnt always get the grease, he said.

But squeaking the deer-hunting wheel does resonate, too. One issue that more than a few deer hunters want the wildlife division to jettison is the early two-day, antlerless-only, muzzleloader-only deer-hunting season.

However, that seasons future is rock-solid, Tonkovich said.

This sophomore season is already becoming very popular, one where a lot of hunters would much rather hunt during pleasant October than endure the cold, wind, and snow all too often encountered in early January, says Tonkovich.

We have a changing population that isnt hunting the way it did in 1985, Tonkovich said. There is high participation for this hunt.

Still, Tonkovich said this interest appears to have stalled with the statewide four-day muzzleloading season.

Maybe poor weather played a factor this year, or perhaps hunters are just plum tuckered out after participating in one of the nations longest archery deer-hunting seasons, an (by some hunters opinion) accursed early muzzleloader season, an early youth-only firearms deer-hunting season, and a seven-day general firearms deer-hunting season, Tonkovich added.

Thus, the statistics for this years statewide muzzleloading deer-hunting season are striking if only because there was no rhyme or reason as to why one county saw an increase and another experienced a sharp decline, Tonkovich said.

While a few major deer-hunting players saw gains in their muzzleloader harvests  Ashtabula County (up 3.19 percent), Trumbull County (up 5.41 percent), and Brown (up 5.15 percent) to name three, other counties did not. For example, Guernsey Countys kill was down 39.42 percent, Tuscarawas Countys was down 38.68 percent, and Harrison Countys was down 37.43 percent.

All of which means the wildlife division will once more be shuffling the deck chairs as it works to tweak the 2015-2016 deer-hunting regulations.

Some counties may see fewer antlerless tags or fewer deer damage permits, or maybe a reduction in bag limits, says Tonkovich.

But some sportsmen are not at all happy with a snip here and other nip there.

One can count Dennis Malloy among the disgruntled Ohio deer hunters who are unhappy with the wildlife divisions current deer management program.

Speaking for himself and not as an employee of a deer advocating organization, Malloy said in an open electronic exchange with a number of Ohio outdoors writers that Sometimes no action is best (W)e are tinkering Deer management to death.

Importantly, Malloy said, if the wildlife division is under pressure by politicians to reduce the states deer herd instead of it being based on science  then tell us  let us  the Sportsmen who pay the bills and vote  battle the Governor and (Natural Resources) Director.

I have one main issue that is on top of them all, Malloy said in the electronic string. We need to find a way for more hunters to harvest one deer, before exploring ways for landowners or their designees to harvest multiple deer.

While Malloy did say he lacks the final and defining solution to Ohios deer herd management strategy, he is convinced that deer population control, agricultural assistance, or whatever new-fangled name the natural resources department comes up with are equally without weight.

And so this exchange of conflicting views may come to a head Jan. 24 (after deadline for this issue of Ohio Outdoor News). That is when the wildlife division was to conduct public-participation deer summit open houses in each of its districts.


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## hopintocash2 (Aug 14, 2011)

FAB said:


> This article from Outdoor news.Deer kill in line with goal, DNR says
> By Jeffrey L. Frischkorn Contributing Writer
> Posted on January 29, 2015
> 
> ...



i would agree that the weather played a part in this years late mz season, i've never liked the early mz season, and have never participated in it. There is indeed more outside influences in the Ohio deer herd than us sportsmen. but the one i don't get is the farmers. i get that they don't want there crops destroyed by deer, but....how many of them have opened up there farms to hunting? i have seen this as a double edged sword....farmer bitches about deer damage, but doesn't want strange people hunting on his/her farm. "we hunt it" i've been told. some of the farmers don't seem to know what they want, we don't want crop damage, but we don't want hunters on our property either. the public lands have taken a huge hit with the current liberal seasons/bag limits but that hasn't helped the farmers or unhuntable areas. until all parties get on the same page, us hunters are f'd. as far as the insurance companies go...they been f'n us for years. 

and i like the idea of the quote i put in red.

i know a lot of farmers like to get damage permits, i think before a permit is issued, they should have to show proof that they opened up there farms to hunters.


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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

Really? Show proof to get damage permits? So if your a farmer who does not own the deer according to the government, who pays taxes on the land where they live, pays taxes on the profits from what he plants, (otherwise known as deer food) pays taxes on the diesel to plant food for the deer, and he now gets told who he has to let on his property?


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

In a few years when they legalize marijuana the sate will have no close season on deer. They will be hunted like coyotes kill on site. Just slow down and read the "BS" posted from Tonk... Lets get right back to who owns the deer herd and who controls it? According to Tonk sportsman are last in the scenario. I've had enough of this "BS" and the ODNR should represent sportsman first that's why the damn department was formed in the first place.


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

jray said:


> Really? Show proof to get damage permits? So if your a farmer who does not own the deer according to the government, who pays taxes on the land where they live, pays taxes on the profits from what he plants, (otherwise known as deer food) pays taxes on the diesel to plant food for the deer, and he now gets told who he has to let on his property?


Last time I checked farmers were not only given deer kill permits but claimed the losses and were compensated by the department of agriculture using tax payer money. Now you still want to claim off limits because you pay taxes?


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## hopin to cash (Sep 14, 2010)

It has been estimated that in the United States deer damaged a total of $100 million of agricultural crops, $750 million of forest regeneration, and $1 billion in deer vehicle accidents. Economic and recreational benefits from deer were judged to be $14 billion. The white-tailed deer is both a valuable and highly esteemed animal in the eyes of the public and at the same time a serious cause of agricultural and other damage problems. These conflicting values among residents of the State emphasize the need for options to control damage due to the white-tailed deer.

So why are sportsmen last?


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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

Not always true. I hunt for 2 farmers that were denied permits. I can tell you firsthand they have a deer problem. It is there fault however, as removing fence rows and wood lots have allowed deer free range in 500 acres of corn and the only way to hunt them is in a 3 acre woods. I hunt 5 days see deer one day but I see 30 at a time. By the time gun season is here, corns down and the deer are gone. I fully believe that is very common in the state. Also beans have been the cash crop cussing farmers to plant less corn leading to less habitat and more crop damage. Put money into subsidies for crp, wood lots and fencerows. That's mho. The DNR is right that habitat has been lost it's just not the way people think.


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## jray (Jan 20, 2006)

The DOW does not exist to please sportsman, they exist to manage wildlife. They are not the DOHunters. They create opportunities for sportsman as well as other agencies that have conflict with wildlife which you can see all of in this thread. To that point, the deer herd in Ohio is not in trouble. The deer herd in some spots is. Habitat is destroyed every time someone builds a house paves a parking lot, etc. the herd numbers and therefore harvest numbers must go down as long as development goes up. This means that if the same amount or more people hunt, which is the case with bow hunting, the ratio of deer per hunter and deer per hunt able acre will get worse. This combines with habitat loss in the form of fencerows, leased acres and so on to put more pressure on a smaller area. We have less deer than we did in 2005 but I do not believe we have less than in 1995 i just think they are harder to hunt. All that added pressure from the bow hunting boom in a state with a 4 month long archery season has to do something. More nocturnal deer, and more mobile deer is what has happened. Deer move with the seasons and sometimes move to refuge areas like "that woods nobody hunts". I have seen documented cases of more deer being nocturnal by trail cameras. I have also seen so many more deer late season when it's below zero and they are forced to move during the day. Long story short if you want the herd to hunt like 1995, discourage kids from hunting, start a bow tag drawing, or limit bow season. All of which are distasteful. Lower the bag limits, you will effect the one percenters not the herd. Or, you can manage your time in the woods and manage your local herd. Cause statewide, it is going to continue to get tougher no matter what. Blame ODNR if you want but it won't change a thing. They are simply reducing the statewide herd to fit the shrinking statewide habitat. Tags by county is an attempt at recognizing the growing challenges and may help somewhat overtime but nothing will fix it.


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## excalman (May 24, 2013)

How much money does old Tonkovich get from the insurance companies and farm bureau? We need this ? answered. I say he paid.


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## excalman (May 24, 2013)

Someone needs to do a public record request on that information. Then we will know if he paid off .


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

hopin to cash said:


> In a few years when they legalize marijuana the sate will have no close season on deer. I've had enough of this "BS" and the ODNR should represent sportsman first that's why the damn department was formed in the first place.



Yes, weed is the biggest threat to the deer herd

Not sure the second sentence is an accurate statement. I think the ODNR was established to maintain, protect, and enhance the natural resources of ohio in the states best interest. This is sometimes at odds with deer hunters (they do not have sole possession of the term "sportsman"). They do far more then set deer bag limits.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Everyone is a self proclaimed biologist nowadsys. People think that just because they can't adapt to changes in patterns and populations, that the deer herd must be in trouble.

Wrong. The herd is where it should be. It was over populated for way too long and people got used to it. Now every armchair hunter thinks they're disappearing because they can't run 50 deer out on a drive or see them every 5 minutes on public land. 

Tonkovich knows his stuff. I wish they'd open season all year with no limit. If we didn't have deer, we'd have a lot less idiots in the woods. I've pretty much quit deer hunting because I don't get along with most deer hunters. Everyone thinks they own the woods and everyone thinks that their way is the only way. Deer hunters will be the demise of deer hunting.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

Wrong. The herd is where it should be. It was over populated for way too long and people got used to it. Now every armchair hunter thinks they're disappearing because they can't run 50 deer out on a drive or see them every 5 minutes on public land.

Well, I am not an armchair hunter and I don't do deer drives or even care for them but when I see a large group of hunters make drive after drive and not move a single deer or when I hunt hard for every day of gun and every day of late muzzle loader and not see a single deer in an area that I had done well in before, then yes I am going to say something is wrong. I do not know, as I have said , what has caused this but there is a problem in some areas and not so much in others. Again I have no idea why that is , one thing though that I have noted is the drastic reduction in deer numbers on public and private property where this new shale oil drilling is taking place. I don't know if you have observed any of that activity when they move into an area but it's a virtual army of vehicles, people and equipment. Reynolds rd. in Belmont county is such an example. A friend of mine owns and hunts property down near Sarahsville and they are actively drilling around his property. This year no deer where he had done well in the past. It may have absolutely nothing to do with the decline in deer but is an observation.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I have never been around a drilling site, but i would imagine that it would drive deer off because of the extra human activity.

I'm not saying that the population hasn't declined, I'm saying that it has and it should have. There is a difference in declined and in danger. The population was too high, and it remained that way for so long that people considered it to be normal. Now that it is where it probably should be, people are complaining and blaming the odnr for doing their job. 

It drives me insane to hear how selfish deer hunters are anymore. I think they forget, or chose to ignore the fact that they aren't the only "sportsmen" in ohio.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

beaver said:


> How ironic that you call deer hunters selfish with a statement like that.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

You're right bob. I shouldn't have been so harsh in my statement, it just gets old hearing this same BS every yesr. Gun hunters tend to think the entire world revolve around that one week, bow hunters think gun hunters are idiots and we should shut the woods down for everything except bow hunting during the rut. Qdma guys can't fathom anyone wanting to shoot anything that they don't deem as a troohy. Blah blah blah. ....

Put 50 trappers, small game hunters, fishermen, turkey hunters, etc. In a room and you've got a good time.

Put 50 deer hunters in a room and you've got a fight. 

For the record, I bow hunt but not because it's fun anymore. I do it because I have 4 kids who love deer meat and expect me to put a couple in the freezer. I bow hunt to get it over with early. I don't shoot young deer, but i don't care if someone else does.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I can't disagree with what you're saying. I've tried to stay out of these conversations this year. I've been too involved with these topics in the past and they seem to never accomplish much except guys getting mad at each other. 
Hunters are becoming their own worst enemy.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

bobk said:


> I can't disagree with what you're saying. I've tried to stay out of these conversations this year. I've been too involved with these topics in the past and they seem to never accomplish much except guys getting mad at each other.
> Hunters are becoming their own worst enemy.


100% agree

I usually just keep scrolling, but apparently I didn't get enough coffee this morning. Haha

Still have that .17 hmm ruger? That was you I traded with correct?


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

beaver said:


> Everyone is a self proclaimed biologist nowadsys. People think that just because they can't adapt to changes in patterns and populations, that the deer herd must be in trouble.
> 
> Wrong. The herd is where it should be. It was over populated for way too long and people got used to it. Now every armchair hunter thinks they're disappearing because they can't run 50 deer out on a drive or see them every 5 minutes on public land.
> 
> Tonkovich knows his stuff. I wish they'd open season all year with no limit. If we didn't have deer, we'd have a lot less idiots in the woods. I've pretty much quit deer hunting because I don't get along with most deer hunters. Everyone thinks they own the woods and everyone thinks that their way is the only way. Deer hunters will be the demise of deer hunting.


Yeah really.. Hard to even read these threads anymore. Don't know why I do it. Not just deer hunters either. Fishermen are almost as guilty...


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

jray said:


> The DOW does not exist to please sportsman, they exist to manage wildlife. .





Division of Wildlife Mission Statement
"We are dedicated to conserving and improving the fish and wildlife
resources and their habitats, *and promoting their use and appreciation
by the people* so that these resources continue to enhance
the quality of life for all Ohioans."

There is no such thing as a bird watchers license. If not Sportsmen, who are they referring to when they say use and appreciation by the people? We Sportsmen pay their bills. Why else would they stock lakes and release pheasant? It's not so someone can look at them. If not for Sportsmen's money, the DoW wouldn't exist


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## excalman (May 24, 2013)

Quoting Beaver, fisherman getting along . Have you ever fished a tournament, bass or catfish? Have you ever had some spook the bird you were calling like road hunters? COME ON MAN WHAT UP WITH BASHING DEER HUNTERS. Maybe you need to delete you post or at least rethink it. All anglers or not bad but tournament fishing can get touchy. Please don't get me started on BAD turkey hunters. Sorry Beaver.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I Fish said:


> Division of Wildlife Mission Statement
> "We are dedicated to conserving and improving the fish and wildlife
> resources and their habitats, *and promoting their use and appreciation
> by the people* so that these resources continue to enhance
> ...


I believe the original comment was directed toward the ODNR whos mission statement reads slightly different.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Department_of_Natural_Resources
Mission statement[edit]
"To ensure a balance between wise use and protection of our natural resources for the benefit of all." [2]

And I disagree about them not existing. They may not exist in their current capacity, but they will certainly exist while we still have natural resources to use and manage. ODNR anyway. I don't know about the specific function of the DOW to have an opinion really.


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

I Fish said:


> Division of Wildlife Mission Statement
> "We are dedicated to conserving and improving the fish and wildlife
> resources and their habitats, *and promoting their use and appreciation
> by the people* so that these resources continue to enhance
> ...



The "for all Ohioans" means all Ohioans. Not all Ohioans are sportsman and not all sportsmen shoot deer.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

sd136405 said:


> The "for all Ohioans" means all Ohioans. Not all Ohioans are sportsman and not all sportsmen shoot deer.


Ok, fair enough. Let me ask, if you were a business, would you give your services to non paying customers the same as you would those that pay? 

We might like to think of DoW as a public service, and to an extent, they are, but, let them start losing money and they will do what any business would do, and that's raise the prices on the paying customers. Unless something has changed, they are funded by donations, license fees, and the Pittman-Robertson act, which is also Sportsmen's money. When many of the paying customers are mad, there is a problem.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

I Fish said:


> Ok, fair enough. Let me ask, if you were a business, would you give your services to non paying customers the same as you would those that pay?
> 
> We might like to think of DoW as a public service, and to an extent, they are, but, let them start losing money and they will do what any business would do, and that's raise the prices on the paying customers. Unless something has changed, they are funded by donations, license fees, and the Pittman-Robertson act, which is also Sportsmen's money. When many of the paying customers are mad, there is a problem.


Thats the thing, they aren't a business and should not be thought of as such. They should be doing whats in the best interest of the state and its people/resources not whats best for their bottom line. And that may mean taking a not so popular approach and not cater to one certain segment of the population but a balance for all vested interests. They'll get their money one way or another or programs will get cut.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

excalman said:


> Quoting Beaver, fisherman getting along . Have you ever fished a tournament, bass or catfish? Have you ever had some spook the bird you were calling like road hunters? COME ON MAN WHAT UP WITH BASHING DEER HUNTERS. Maybe you need to delete you post or at least rethink it. All anglers or not bad but tournament fishing can get touchy. Please don't get me started on BAD turkey hunters. Sorry Beaver.


No I stand by it. There is no group of sportsmen that are as self centered and "holier than thou" as deer hunters. Im not saying all deer hunters are that way (heck, I admitted that I hunt deer), just a higher percentage than other outdoor enthusiasts. 

I understand that there are bad turkey hunters that spook birds due to ignorance and that fishing tournaments are competitive. However, I rarely see a discussion on turkey hunting or fishing where someone is telling someone else that they're not doing it right because they don't do it the way "real hunters" do it. I also don't hear turkey hunters complaining about people being allowed to mushroom hunt on public ground the same way bow hunters complain when anything else is allowed to happen in the woods during the rut on public ground. I never hear fisherman degrade another fisherman because they chose to use a bait caster instead of fly fish, or live bait versus artificial. There may be a lot of discussion on the differences and preferences, but both parties usually respect the others choice and right to do how they please within the law. 

It just seems like most outdoor enthusiasts care about the outdoor sports as a whole, whereas deer hunters care about deer hunting.... as long as it's their style of deer hunting.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

beaver said:


> 100% agree
> 
> I usually just keep scrolling, but apparently I didn't get enough coffee this morning. Haha
> 
> Still have that .17 hmm ruger? That was you I traded with correct?


Yep, 
I love that gun. Been using it more than my .22 lately.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I miss it. It was a tack driver.


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## excalman (May 24, 2013)

Turkey hunter that sit on road in there truck listen for bird is NOT ignorance .Its plain lazy slob hunter. I assume you haven't fished tournaments because you didn't say you have. I bought my first deer tag in 1981 I seen it all. There is lazy slob hunter among all of us. Deer hunting in the 80's was a world ago but some of us still remember those day. When did you buy your first deer tags.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

1991, but you're still missing my point. I have fished tournaments, although I think that's irrelevant. Yes there are lazy slobs in every group. I never said one word about a lazy deer hunter. I said they're self centered. Nobody hates a hunter like a deer hunter. The one thing to have a different opinion, it's another to tell someone else they're wrong or less of a hunter because they don't share it. Baiters are degraded by those that dont. Crossbow hunters are degraded by compound hunters which are degraded by recurve hunters and everyone seems to hate gun hunters, especially rifle and shotgun users. Meanwhile I, as a bow hunter of turkeys and as a user of the best high tech equipment I can afford to fish with, can sit at a table with a guy who uses a shotgun with 3.5" hevi shot for turkeys and a bamboo fly rod to fish with and get along just fine. Now I might be a lazy turkey hunter and he may be the type to cast across someone's line, but we get along and stick together. If someone was attacking his right to fly fish on sunday, I'd be there. If someone was attacking my right to bow hunt birds on public land, he'd be there. Not so much with deer hunters. It's across me me me attitude. United we stand, divided we fall. Deer hunters have been divided for a long time, I hope we fix it before the fall.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Thats the thing, they aren't a business and should not be thought of as such. They should be doing whats in the best interest of the state and its people/resources not whats best for their bottom line. And that may mean taking a not so popular approach and not cater to one certain segment of the population but a balance for all vested interests. They'll get their money one way or another or programs will get cut.


I understand. My point is Everybody pays for the Highway Patrol. Everybody pays for the state EPA. No other function of the state is paid for by one small segment of the population. My point is if Sportsmen are the only ones paying for DoW, Sportsmen should carry the most weight in the DoW's decision making. They are totally unlike any other function of the state. 

We expect the Dept of Transportation to keep good roads for people with drivers licenses. If the roads go bad, instead of making excuses and double talk, the DOT fixes them. Why should Sportsmen expect less from the DoW?


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## excalman (May 24, 2013)

You right we are doomed. WE are all centered, that human nature. Why DOES THE ODNR LISTEN TO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND FARM BUREAU . ONE WORD MONEY. Also good luck with getting a bass club member to work with catfish or carp derby. That laughable.


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