# St. Croix (Must READ!)



## xuman3

I sent an email to St. Croix asking what the different in the Triumph (their lowest line) and the Premier series of rods. For those of you that do not know, the Premier series of rods are DOUBLE the price of the Triumphs. Here is their response:

Materials are basically the same----the Premier is made here at our plant in Park falls---the Triumph is made at our plant in Mexico----difference in labor costs.
Thanks
Tony B.
St. Croix Retail Store
Sales Associate


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## JignPig Guide

xuman3 said:


> I sent an email to St. Croix asking what the different in the Triumph (their lowest line) and the Premier series of rods. For those of you that do not know, the Premier series of rods are DOUBLE the price of the Triumphs. Here is their response:
> 
> Materials are basically the same----the Premier is made here at our plant in Park falls---the Triumph is made at our plant in Mexico----difference in labor costs.
> Thanks
> Tony B.
> St. Croix Retail Store
> Sales Associate


Yea,

According to some groups, such things as: health insurance, retirement, and living wages, are unnecessary labor costs. 
We are saving ourselves out of our jobs.


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## PapawSmith

JignPig Guide said:


> Yea,
> 
> According to some groups, such things as: health insurance, retirement, and living wages, are unnecessary labor costs.
> We are saving ourselves out of our jobs.


Outstanding observation of the residual affects of our desires to always find the best "deals". 
Don't mean to disrespect the original poster in any way. I'm sure I have a house full of $hit made outside this country. We just never really consider all things and it was well stated by Jig.


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## puterdude

Have to admit I am somewhat surprised he fessed up so openly.Generally a company would fill their reply with bs.Shows class in my opinion and I'll take the American made one any day.


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## xuman3

I perfectly agree with you but why even offer a cheaper product if it's the same thing. To me, it is an unethical marketing practice. I will admit that I have the Triumph rod that I bought when it first came out several years ago and did not know it was made out of country, being that St. Croix is an American company. I just find this quite a disturbing marketing practice and a deception to the consumer. I would rather them not offer the Triumph series.


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## JamesT

Next time you are at a place that has both, look closely at the guides. You will notice that some of the guides on the Triumphs are at funky angles while the guides on the premiers are like they should be.


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## Smead

The guides on the Premiers are better, which you can see at their website by comparing product descriptions.

I give them some credit for having their non US made rods done in Mexico rather than China.

Why do they do it??

Consumer demand for cheaper products.

BTW...the Premiers cost $20-50 more than an equivelent power and length Triumph rod.


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## xuman3

I specifically asked about the rod guides and they said they were extremely similar and I am looking at a rod that starts at $60 bucks for a triumph and the same in the premier is $120. 2 piece Medium 6'6" 2 piece fast tip spinning rod. I travel a lot so need the 2 piece. I have no problem trying to get a share of the cheaper market but don't let those people who want to upgrade their equipment to a premier believe that it is a much better rod if it's only a difference in labor costs. It's one of those things that you should get what you pay for, and if I spend the extra $60 bucks, I would like to know that I'm getting a significantly higher quality rod, in this case, I am not. Just thought people should know. I do give the sales associate credit for being honest, the company policy sucks though.


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## Smead

For the record;

Triumphs: "Hard aluminum-oxide guides with black frames. "

Premiers: "Batson Forecast® hard aluminum-oxide guides with double-plated black chrome frames."

From their website prices, the Triumph in your desired configuration is $70, the Premier is $120...The gap is closer on some of the other sizes. Though I got that same one in the Premier, your 6'6" medium, at Gander for $110, while the Triumphs there were $70. Shop around and you could get the Premier even cheaper online...maybe even with free shipping. .

Personally though...I'd pay the extra bucks to keep an American in a job.


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## xuman3

Smead,
I would have purchased the premier had I know that the triumph was not made in America. I went with St. Croix due to it being an American company. The reason I purchased the triumph back then was because I wasn't making any money in grad school. I did look at the two rods side by side yesterday and the guides looked exactly the same, trust me. Now, the difference between the Avid series and the other two does appear to be night and day and I can understand the high price tag.


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## Marshall

I wonder if threre is a difference in the quality of graphite between the two. I would be willing to bet there is. I think the rod(triumph) feels heavy and not very sensitive. I have a couple premiers and to me they feel different. But im not a big st. croix guy, your right the higher end are night and day different. I have switched to the lighter more sensitive higher priced rods on the market and they have their advantages but day in day out i could still catch fish with the cheap rod if i had to. Sadly there are not a lot of stuff made in this country today.


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## NewbreedFishing

Not to derail this thread St.Croix/Ledgend Tourn. Bass is the only way to go.
You get the extra security of the lifetime warranty and you will enjoy fishing more because of the lighter weight and sensitivity.


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## Rooster

Many US tackle companies are offering a cheap import alternative. Im under the impression that it is a necessary evil to keep their company competitive, and still offer the premium US built line.

St.Croix openly lists where each product is made on their website (other tackle companies may not be as open). I do not think that St.croix deserves ANY criticism for being deceptive in this respect. The information is readily available to an informed consumer, and an uninformed consumer really has no grounds to complain.

I personally would never consider purchasing a rod manufactured outside the US by a US company. Other than a few rods made in the UK and Japan, all of my fishing rods were built in the US (wish I could say the same about reels!). However, if that is what it takes to keep them competitive and still offer a US built product, I applaud their efforts.


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## Shortdrift

Rooster said:


> Many US tackle companies are offering a &#8220;cheap&#8221; import alternative. I&#8217;m under the impression that it is a necessary evil to keep their company competitive, and still offer the &#8220;premium&#8221; US built line.
> 
> St.Croix openly lists where each product is made on their website (other tackle companies may not be as open). I do not think that St.croix deserves ANY criticism for being deceptive in this respect. *The information is readily available to an informed consumer, and an uninformed consumer really has no grounds to complain.*I personally would never consider purchasing a rod manufactured outside the US by a US company. Other than a few rods made in the UK and Japan, all of my fishing rods were built in the US (wish I could say the same about reels!). However, if that is what it takes to keep them competitive and still offer a US built product, I applaud their efforts.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


*Well said Rooster !*


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## Smead

xuman3 said:


> Smead,
> I would have purchased the premier had I know that the triumph was not made in America. I went with St. Croix due to it being an American company. The reason I purchased the triumph back then was because I wasn't making any money in grad school. I did look at the two rods side by side yesterday and the guides looked exactly the same, trust me. Now, the difference between the Avid series and the other two does appear to be night and day and I can understand the high price tag.


The difference:

The minimum wage in Mexico is ballpark $4.50 a day...depends on region and any employer can pay more than the daily wage minimum.

http://www.mexperience.com/guide/essentials/mexico-facts-and-figures.php#DailyWage

In the USA:

I suspect that St. C's wages in Wisconsin are a bit better than minimum...but the lowest they could be is $7.25/hour...this doesn't include matching FICA contributions, unemployment and worker's compensation premiums. If St. C pays any portions of their employee's health care premiums, this would be additional compensation.

The savings on the Triumph are a bit in materials...while paying developing nation level wages...given that both the Premier and the Avid lines are made in the USA, the increase there is all in materials used, better blank, guides, and that IPC tech used to make the blanks.

Lets say that it takes 4 hours to make a rod...labor costs at minimum possible rates:

Mexico: $2.25

USA $29.00 (+ benefits and required expense per hour of labor for FICA, unemployment and worker's comp.)


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## Smead

Not beating anybody up...I always look for "Made in USA" products, in many categories they do not exist anymore...the consequences of a trend begun decades ago.

Extrapolating current trends into the future, it doesn't look good...the loss of the middle class predominantly. Historically, the larger the middle class, the greater the stability. You're also seeing the effect in the yearly Federal deficits, despite a large amount of nonsense spending, expenditures are far exceeding revenues...each year, more people fall into the category of not paying Federal income tax because they make too little.

You can also see why there are so many illegals up here if the minimum wage in Mexico is less than 5 bucks a day. This is encouraged I believe, despite any lip service paid to combating illegal immigration, because it addresses those services that can not be outsourced like manufacturing can.

Note here how decisions on which fishing rod to buy can impact national and even global economics...what an inter-connected existence we have.


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## ohiojmj

What is so unethical about pricing a product based on labor and material cost? An unethical company would shift production overseas and hold the line on price. 

I'll skip jcommenting on the buy American argument as the global economy has created a catch 22 with the cost of goods driven lower by imports (competition) which helps the consumer maintain a standard of living, but then the jobs vanish in some businesses.

I've got 3 Premiers and have tried out the similar Triumph, but don't like the feel and action as well. I'm not convinced they are equal.


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## spfldbassguy

I fail to see how their business practices could be considered unethical. If you don't like their business practices or feel you have been deceived then don't spend your money with that company in the future. It's really not a hard concept to wrap your head around. Sorry if that sounded rude and I'm not trying to be. However it's a pretty simple concept to follow.


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## lordofthepunks

ohiojmj said:


> What is so unethical about pricing a product based on labor and material cost? An unethical company would shift production overseas and hold the line on price.
> 
> .


i agree with this statement 100%. i purchase rods made in usa but nobody on this entire website buys everything american made. in fact i would bet the vast majority of everything everyone buys is made outside this country. it sucks but its true. 

if you think its shady then dont buy st croix. there are alot of good custom rod builders and a few companies that make rods here in the usa. if enough people join you then st. croix will pay for it in the end.


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## steelhead211

St. Croix was up front about this from day one! They have nothing to hide. As mentioned in previous post's this was done to compete with every other rod manufacture, who is doing the same thing. Almost all blanks for all rod companies come from a handful of extruders in China, assembled there or Mexico. Same goes for reels. St. Croix's high end rods are built in Park Falls. I've been there three times now, and saw this with all four of my eyes! If you want to buy American they are one of the only that comes close!


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## bobby

I believe that the Mojo rods are assembled (or made) out of country, as well. I have yet to use one but wouldn't hesitate. I like the Legend Tournament best, also the Avid is nice. The Legend Extreme is SICK. Received one as birthday present for making it to 40 over the summer!


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## spfldbassguy

If I'm correct Mojo rods are "Hand crafted in North America". I guess that's just a nicer way of saying " Made in Mexico".


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## Smead

bobby said:


> I believe that the Mojo rods are assembled (or made) out of country, as well. I have yet to use one but wouldn't hesitate. I like the Legend Tournament best, also the Avid is nice. The Legend Extreme is SICK. Received one as birthday present for making it to 40 over the summer!


I have (3) Avids now and I'm still eyeing those Legend Elites and telling myself that I shouldn't. 

http://www.stcroixrods.com/product/freshwater-legend-elite


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## Smead

spfldbassguy said:


> If I'm correct Mojo rods are "Hand crafted in North America". I guess that's just a nicer way of saying " Made in Mexico".


From their site:



> Designed in Park Falls and handcrafted in Fresnillo, Mexico.


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## Guest

st croix moved the triumph line from china to mexico a year or so ago. they told me it had to do with delivery problems, but i heard there were quality defects also.

that being said, and i do like mexican folks,but i will continue to buy premiers and the occasional avid because i like the products that american workers put out, even if i have to spend a few extra dollars. i have no doubt that the triumph rods are very nice, but i want to keep our economy rolling anyway i can. it sux being out of work as i was there once or twice.


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## spfldbassguy

I've been lookin' at maybe pickin' up a new rod this year and the St.Croix line of rods has gotten my attention. I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more for a rod that's made in America. I've read on this site a few times now over the past year or so about their rods and have really been paying attention to what people are saying. Seems like everyone likes them and thinks they're a good quality rod so I might have to seriously think about pickin' one up.


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## roger23

I don't know Who or where Avids are made they must have a problem ,I have broken 2 and everyone I know that has one ,has at least broken one,,I like them but seems like every other year I break one ,,Yes they have a Life time Warranty but it still is a pain to send them,,,we all fish the Maumee and lake Erie probably only a hundred days a year, I have no clue how many casts a day but a lot..I have seen a lot of other rods broken on the river expensive and cheap,,,I was told that if you charge $200 for a rod you can afford to put out a life time warranty because 90% of the people that buy them never break them ,the few that fish a lot and do break them is more than made up buy the price of the rod..I know a lot of people that only fish a few times a year,,but living in this area we fish all the time year round

the only reason I own Avids is because I won them in Tournaments,,I use to only use Ugly sticks and caught just as many fish,,and never broke one ,I just like the Avids because they are lighter


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## reo

JignPig Guide said:


> Yea,
> 
> According to some groups, such things as: health insurance, retirement, and living wages, are unnecessary labor costs.
> We are saving ourselves out of our jobs.


Well said!


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## Smead

Breakage is going to happen with the high end rods...the price paid for the sensitivity. I can tell whether a bait is hitting wood or stone with my Avid...not so much with the Uglies.

I broke an Avid this fall...my fault, hit a snag...broke a $170 rod attempting to save a $5 lure.

Interesting reading:

http://www.bishfish.co.nz/articles/general/gimmebreak.htm


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## Smead

reo said:


> Well said!


Indeed it is...penny wise and dollar foolish...cheap foreign goods have a very high cost


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## Guest

the only st. croix rod that i ever broke was my fault completely, i told them so, and yet they fixed it. that being said, i know guys who constantly outfish me with ugly sticks and lightning rods. i have a reason for using what i do but in the end, it is just fishing. use what you are happy with and what you can afford. good luck.


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## firemanstevec34

It was my understanding that the early Mojo Bass rods were made in the USA. They have since moved the production to Mexico.


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## roger23

A MEN,,, move everything back to the USA,,It may cost a little more but your kids may have a job in the future,,it is sad to go to a store and see nothing made in the USA,,,,years back made in Japan was A dirty word look at what happened to them,,,


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## buckzye11

If rods made in the US are all $170-200, i wont be buying american if my rod breaks and i need a new one. don't get me wrong, id perfer to buy the american made rod..... but dang, i need that money for the $3.19 gas that im putting in my mexican made(assembled in USA) truck with the 21% intrust on it since i made a bad decision on a credit card at age 18 cause i wanted a free cleveland indians hat that was made in bangladesh by an 8 year old.


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## Double J

I own both avid and premier rods and use them to jig the reefs in april.I honestly prefer the premier strangely enough?I've yet to snap a rod but do like the warrenty on my avid.had a friend come up to fish on my boat,he had a triumph.Did he catch fish?certainly did.I tried the rod and the feel was not comparable to the premier or avid,there in a different league imo.As others pointed out the premier is not twice as much as the triumph.The bottom line for me is that for the money the premier is the best rod. xuman3....I guess i'm a little confused about your post.first you state you did in fact buy a triumph at one point and then say you wish they didnt offer the line.Its supply and demand.not everyone can afford a premier rod and st croix understands this.To believe the two are basically the same is BS if you ask me.You dont have to spend a dime to see this for yourself...go to the store and hold each one and see for yourself.Smead did a nice job of pointing out some particulars as far as guides and pricing go.


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## fishingredhawk

There is no way that those rods are the same. As Double J stated, simply pick up each one and compare...nowhere near the same.


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## josh617

they are both supposed to be scII blanks. I m not sure how big of a difference Fuji components (premier) vs. el cheapo (triumph) components make on the same blank but that could be some of the reason for noticeable differences. I personally would never purchase either, because I like to have a lifetime warranty which is why i have avids and legend tournaments. Plus their warranty service is still better than loomis. I ve only broke one avid and that was my drop shot rod, apparently 5 years of 4lb+ smallies takes its toll on a blank and the service department was very prompt and curtious.


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## GETTIN' THERE

buckzye11 said:


> If rods made in the US are all $170-200, i wont be buying american if my rod breaks and i need a new one. don't get me wrong, id perfer to buy the american made rod..... but dang, i need that money for the $3.19 gas that im putting in my mexican made(assembled in USA) truck



I agree, why does an American made rod cost so much? I can't afford them.
I want to buy American, but I am not going to buy something I can get for $30 (ugly stick) for $120. Never had a problem with my ugly sticks. You don't pay 4 times as much for a made in the USA automobile do ya? I try to buy in this order:

Made in...
#1 USA
#2 North America
#3 Europe
#4 Western Hemisphere
#5 Any place but China
#6 China

Sometimes there is no choice, sometimes you might spend $10 or $20 more
for a product, but I will never pay twice or more for product, I just do not have those kind of funds.

Besides, corporations any more have no loyalty.... as witnessed in this recent news article titled:

*Where are the Jobs? For Many Companies, Overseas*
Economic Policy Institute Says 1.4M Jobs Created Overseas *by U.S. Companies*, Compared to 1M Domestically.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/28/business/main7191280.shtml


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## boss302

I don't see the big deal. The triumph seems like a decent rod in a mid price range for the average Joe. My walleye boat rods (drifting) are built with SCII and SCIII blanks -- I love them and hope I can afford to replace them when the time comes. I want to get my son a decent walleye/perch rod for his birthday this summer and I will consider a triumph. I don't think buying an americam made rod is an option at that price level and I'm not spending a ton of money I don't have.


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## Guest

it's quite obvious why they cost what they do. even at minimum wage, our wages are considerably higher than those of a chinese worker. not sure what a foreign rod maker gets paid, but apple pays there foreign workers about .82 an hour. nike is even less. but as we continue to buy foreign made goods, we will continue to lose jobs. 7 million in the last five years already. these jobs are not coming back. take a ride through youngstown sometime and look at the miles of empty ground that once housed mills and look at all the boarded up factories. i know this has become a global economy, but we are surely headed for a lot of gloom and doom here.


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## mck1975

GETTIN' THERE said:


> You don't pay 4 times as much for a made in the USA automobile do ya?


The most American made autos today happen to be owned by foreign auto makers.

The American rods may be pricey but the quality is top shelf and the warranties are solid., for that I'll buy American.


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## Smead

> I agree, why does an American made rod cost so much? I can't afford them.
> I want to buy American, but I am not going to buy something I can get for $30 (ugly stick) for $120. Never had a problem with my ugly sticks. You don't pay 4 times as much for a made in the USA automobile do ya?


Most imported autos are made in countries with similiar labor rates, Japan and Europe for example...also, many foreign brands are made here to save on shipping costs...none of these workers, US or foreign, are making that China wage of 82 cents an hour.

China will eventually be exporting autos though...maybe India as well.

*Gentle Chide Follows:*

If we as consumers who buy the products can use this cost justification, how can those making similiar corporate decisions regarding employment be taken to task??

For Example:

I want to (employ) American(s), but I am not going to (employ) some(one) for $120 (when) I can get (that work done) for $30 (Chinese Workers). 

Now doing the actual math, the savings is far greater using Chinese labor...ballpark manufacturing wages at $12 an hour in the USA and labor rates here are 15 times more.

The above doesn't take into acoount FICA costs and the costs of workers compensation and unemployment compensation paid by a US employer....so per hour costs are actually greater than straight wage indicates. In addition, costs associated with workplace safety and environmental damage are not borne by Chinese manufacturers to the degree that they are by US manufacturers.

Outcomes???

Eventually, the majority of people won't even be able to afford to buy the Chinese made stuff.

Those thinking that whatever they do in life isn't effected by all this should question what they are going to do when only a very few can afford their products/services. 

The possibility of social upheaval as more and more of the population is impoverished becomes very great. There's historical examples of that, as well as modern examples such as Brazil...there the relatively small amount of well off people have to be defended by walls and armed guards.


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## Guest

smead, good points. however, a lot of foreign car companies do build here these days, not only to save on import taxes and shipping, but also because they know american workers are quality-conscience and given a living wage, will in turn buy their products.

it has been written that a nation belongs in the third world grouping when it's top three exports are natural resources. man, we are getting close.

in the end, we buy cheaper goods, and more of them, at the long term cost of millions of jobs. eventually, with so many out of work or working for poverty level wages, we will not be able to afford even ugly sticks or mitchell reels. 

myself, i believe we have been sold out so that a very few can reap greater profits and wealth.

in my workplace, we have initiated a second tier wage system that tops out at 10 bucks an hour, but it costs possible new hirers one weeks pay per month to cover the costs of benefits. who can live on that?

so in the meantime, i cannnot afford as many rods as i may need or want, but i will continue to pay more for american made goods.


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## legendaryyaj

If you are all about buying American then seek out a rod builder to build you a top notch American rod then tell him to give it to you at lower price because you are both American and see what he says.


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## Guest

legendaryyaj said:


> If you are all about buying American then seek out a rod builder to build you a top notch American rod then tell him to give it to you at lower price because you are both American and see what he says.


why? not even sure i understand your point.

isn't it better to keep a group of people working than just one individual? custom rods are nice for those who can afford them, actually works of art, but because so many jobs have been lost in the last few decades, i don't work like i used to, too old to be hired somewhere else even if they were hiring, and am happy with my entry level, american made rods. it is impossible to buy just american made anymore, but when i can, i will. i owe it to the working people in this country. we just cannot afford to lose jobs at the rate we are going.

that being said, i love my premiers. great rods for the price.


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## Tokugawa

rapman said:


> why? not even sure i understand your point.
> 
> isn't it better to keep a group of people working than just one individual? custom rods are nice for those who can afford them, actually works of art, but because so many jobs have been lost in the last few decades, i don't work like i used to, too old to be hired somewhere else even if they were hiring, and am happy with my entry level, american made rods. it is impossible to buy just american made anymore, but when i can, i will. i owe it to the working people in this country. we just cannot afford to lose jobs at the rate we are going.
> 
> that being said, i love my premiers. great rods for the price.


Actually, you do keep more than one person working when you buy a custom. The blank manufacturer, the guide manufacturer, the thread manufacturer, the reel seat manufacturer, the cork importer and the parts distributor...at the very least.


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## Guest

actually, you are right. thanks, tok. i have seen some beautiful rods made by independent builders and they sure are art pieces. i have a cane fly rod made by one and given to me as a gift. wish i could have a couple of spinning rods made to my specs, but braces and tuitions and such put this wish in the closet.

one thing with companies like st. croix , they do make owning an american made rod a bit more affordable.


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## Tokugawa

rapman said:


> actually, you are right. thanks, tok. i have seen some beautiful rods made by independent builders and they sure are art pieces. i have a cane fly rod made by one and given to me as a gift. wish i could have a couple of spinning rods made to my specs, but braces and tuitions and such put this wish in the closet.
> 
> one thing with companies like st. croix , they do make owning an american made rod a bit more affordable.


I think American made blanks are among the best. Between Lamiglas and Croix there is every blank and application covered.


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## 1fatbasser

2009 may bassmaster has a article which states both rods the same just assembled like said before in different places


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## SMBHooker

I don't mean to highjack this thread or anything, but considering the topic and the cumulative knowlege here on St Croix's line up of rods I'd appreciate some advice.

Last season I purchased a crankin rod for fishing smallmouth in the river. I spent about $150.00 on a Quantum Tour KVD Rod Model #TKVD705M. Its not a bad rod, but it doesn't have the play or give I need for when smallmouth bust out of the water. It seems to be a stiffer rod, its probbly better suited for bigger largemouth. Its tearing off smallmouth on the initial jump  and I've lost a lot more fish than I feel comfortable with. 

I am considering a St. Croix Premier® Series Crankbait Rod Model # PC70MM. Any smallmouth anglers on hear that use a St. Croix to crank for them? Would appriciate some opinions, are there any other St. Croix models better suited for this application?

Thanks


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## GETTIN' THERE

Smead said:


> Most imported autos are made in countries with similiar labor rates, Japan and Europe for example...also, many foreign brands are made here to save on shipping costs...none of these workers, US or foreign, are making that China wage of 82 cents an hour.
> 
> China will eventually be exporting autos though...maybe India as well.
> 
> *Gentle Chide Follows:*
> 
> If we as consumers who buy the products can use this cost justification, how can those making similiar corporate decisions regarding employment be taken to task??



Then we are already doomed! 

Oh and by the way, the corporate executives don't give a damn. Profit is the bottom line. And to all you guys boating around with your new Merc's keep this in mind.

Mercury Marine builds 40-, 50- and 60- horsepower outboard motors in Suzhou, China and 30 hp and below by Tohatsu in Japan.

If the corporate minions can build there products (outboards) with slave labor and then sell them in the US for the same price as American made products, then there is no way we can win..in fact I say we have already lost.


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## josh617

SMBHooker said:


> I don't mean to highjack this thread or anything, but considering the topic and the cumulative knowlege here on St Croix's line up of rods I'd appreciate some advice.
> 
> Last season I purchased a crankin rod for fishing smallmouth in the river. I spent about $150.00 on a Quantum Tour KVD Rod Model #TKVD705M. Its not a bad rod, but it doesn't have the play or give I need for when smallmouth bust out of the water. It seems to be a stiffer rod, its probbly better suited for bigger largemouth. Its tearing off smallmouth on the initial jump  and I've lost a lot more fish than I feel comfortable with.
> 
> I am considering a St. Croix Premier® Series Crankbait Rod Model # PC70MM. Any smallmouth anglers on hear that use a St. Croix to crank for them? Would appriciate some opinions, are there any other St. Croix models better suited for this application?
> 
> Thanks


keep the rod and change your hooks.


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## 1badmthrfisher

Made in Mexico, or not...I bet that Triumph is the best $60 rod on the market. I think it is great that a company found a way to provide a good product at prices more people can afford. I agree that there is no grounds for complaining here. It is simple to buy another Brand if you don't like St Croix. 

It is no different than car companies... Im sure there are enough people on this thread that drive a kia, hyundai, etc.. Why? Because they are affordable and at least to some degree, have proved to be reliable enough for Americans... 

I will continue buying St croix rods


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## JignPig Guide

spfldbassguy said:


> I've been lookin' at maybe pickin' up a new rod this year and the St.Croix line of rods has gotten my attention. I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more for a rod that's made in America. I've read on this site a few times now over the past year or so about their rods and have really been paying attention to what people are saying. Seems like everyone likes them and thinks they're a good quality rod so I might have to seriously think about pickin' one up.


Hey spfldbassguy,
I use a variety of different types and models of St. Croix rods, and I have been for quite-some-time now. 
If you want to look at a pretty good selection of them, make your way over to Buckeye Outdoors in Hebron. They've got the best selection I've found in Central Ohio. I personally think the Premier series gives you the best bang for the buck.


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## Erterbass

SMBHooker said:


> I am considering a St. Croix Premier® Series Crankbait Rod Model # PC70MM. Any smallmouth anglers on hear that use a St. Croix to crank for them? Would appriciate some opinions, are there any other St. Croix models better suited for this application?
> 
> Thanks


I have that Premier rod and it is GREAT for active, jump-happy fish who tend to throw hooks. But it also has the backbone to pull a fish away from cover if you need to.

The St. Croix has a full parabolic action while the KVD model you have is more tip-moderate. In other words it has moderate action to just past 1/3 of the rod length then stiffens. The St. Croix's moderate action extends nearly 2/3 of the length.

Love my St. Croix Premier crank rods! 

Bob


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## SMBHooker

Erterbass said:


> I have that Premier rod and it is GREAT for active, jump-happy fish who tend to throw hooks. But it also has the backbone to pull a fish away from cover if you need to.
> 
> The St. Croix has a full parabolic action while the KVD model you have is more tip-moderate. In other words it has moderate action to just past 1/3 of the rod length then stiffens. The St. Croix's moderate action extends nearly 2/3 of the length.
> 
> Love my St. Croix Premier crank rods!
> 
> Bob


Thanks that's the kind of rod I've been looking for, thought the KVD rod fit that mold but, was disappointed. It's a great rod but not for the application I'm needing it for. 

Will be investing in a Premier rod soon!


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## Guest

1bad, i was looking at triumph's today at dick's at they sure looked like a heck of a 60 dollar rod to me. i would have no problem buying one. love the price, too.


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## Slabs!

rapman said:


> 1bad, i was looking at triumph's today at dick's at they sure looked like a heck of a 60 dollar rod to me. i would have no problem buying one. love the price, too.


I bought a Triumph 2 years ago because I needed a great multipurpose rod, wanted the sensitivity, strength and backbone, something that I could use for crappie, saugeye and walleye on Lake Erie. It's the most expensive rod I have. All I can tell you is that it's the best purchase I've ever made and the best rod I have hands down. I probably use it 70% of the time and plan on buying another one this spring. Really doesn't matter what rod you have in your hand if you don't know how to use it and apply it properly.


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## NewbreedFishing

let me know how that rod works out SMB

i am looking for a big water 7-7.5' cranking rod...and do want the 2/3 parabolic setup for casting 40yards and keeping those hooks buttoned :B




SMBHooker said:


> I am considering a St. Croix Premier® Series Crankbait Rod Model # PC70MM. Any smallmouth anglers on hear that use a St. Croix to crank for them? Would appriciate some opinions, are there any other St. Croix models better suited for this application?
> 
> Thanks


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## buzzing byrd

I am all for buying american when I can. So, who are the american rod/reel manufactures? A couple of years ago I was buying some fishing sun glasses and looking for american made. I found some that said product of the U.S.A., after getting them home and opening the pack I found made in China on the inside of the label.


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## Bucket Mouth

The main reason that it is difficult to find "made in america" products is from one giant reason - the U.S. corporate tax rate.

Anyone interested should check where our tax rates rank amongst all countries. It is staggering.

CEO's of companies have shareholders who are expecting return on investment. If you do not maximize profits, those shareholders will sell stocks and invest in companies who do maximize ROI. Too many shareholders selling your stocks at once = share price drop. Continual share price drop means either a.) hostile takeover by competitor or b.) out of business.

A drastic reduction in the corporate tax rate coupled with the elimination of minimum wage will result in incredible job and american made product growth, which will allow all of us the ability to choose from a plethora of american made fishing rods.


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## Smead

Bucket Mouth said:


> The main reason that it is difficult to find "made in america" products is from one giant reason - the U.S. corporate tax rate.
> 
> Anyone interested should check where our tax rates rank amongst all countries. It is staggering.
> 
> CEO's of companies have shareholders who are expecting return on investment. If you do not maximize profits, those shareholders will sell stocks and invest in companies who do maximize ROI. Too many shareholders selling your stocks at once = share price drop. Continual share price drop means either a.) hostile takeover by competitor or b.) out of business.
> 
> A drastic reduction in the corporate tax rate coupled with the elimination of minimum wage will result in incredible job and american made product growth, which will allow all of us the ability to choose from a plethora of american made fishing rods.


Are you willing step forward and be the first amoungst us to take at least a 50% cut in pay to help stockholders??

I'm sure that they would appreciate that.


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## robertj298

Bucket Mouth said:


> The main reason that it is difficult to find "made in america" products is from one giant reason - the U.S. corporate tax rate.
> 
> Anyone interested should check where our tax rates rank amongst all countries. It is staggering.
> 
> CEO's of companies have shareholders who are expecting return on investment. If you do not maximize profits, those shareholders will sell stocks and invest in companies who do maximize ROI. Too many shareholders selling your stocks at once = share price drop. Continual share price drop means either a.) hostile takeover by competitor or b.) out of business.
> 
> A drastic reduction in the corporate tax rate coupled with the elimination of minimum wage will result in incredible job and american made product growth, which will allow all of us the ability to choose from a plethora of american made fishing rods.


It couldn't be because of the slave labor rates in other countries? Its strange that we don't import or have companies moving to the countries at the bottom of the corporate tax rate list.


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## oldstinkyguy

Smead said:


> Most imported autos are made in countries with similiar labor rates, Japan and Europe for example...also, many foreign brands are made here to save on shipping costs...none of these workers, US or foreign, are making that China wage of 82 cents an hour.
> 
> China will eventually be exporting autos though...maybe India as well.
> 
> *Gentle Chide Follows:*
> 
> If we as consumers who buy the products can use this cost justification, how can those making similiar corporate decisions regarding employment be taken to task??
> 
> For Example:
> 
> I want to (employ) American(s), but I am not going to (employ) some(one) for $120 (when) I can get (that work done) for $30 (Chinese Workers).
> 
> Now doing the actual math, the savings is far greater using Chinese labor...ballpark manufacturing wages at $12 an hour in the USA and labor rates here are 15 times more.
> 
> The above doesn't take into acoount FICA costs and the costs of workers compensation and unemployment compensation paid by a US employer....so per hour costs are actually greater than straight wage indicates. In addition, costs associated with workplace safety and environmental damage are not borne by Chinese manufacturers to the degree that they are by US manufacturers.
> 
> Outcomes???
> 
> Eventually, the majority of people won't even be able to afford to buy the Chinese made stuff.
> 
> Those thinking that whatever they do in life isn't effected by all this should question what they are going to do when only a very few can afford their products/services.
> 
> The possibility of social upheaval as more and more of the population is impoverished becomes very great. There's historical examples of that, as well as modern examples such as Brazil...there the relatively small amount of well off people have to be defended by walls and armed guards.


bravo! well said


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## Star1pup

I bought a couple Triumphs a couple years ago. My first trip out I snagged a light, sunken branch. I was reaching over to unsnag it when the rod tip broke, and there was not much tension on it. St. Croix refused to replace it until my dealer, who is not a gentle fellow, got on the phone because another customer had one break in almost exactly the same place.

Result: St. Croix replaced the rods and I think the customer service guy will eventually recover his hearing. I now have 4 of them and no more problems. That's why I try to shop at my local store and not a box house whenever I can.


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## crappiecat

I'm curious about these St Croix "American" made rods. Are these Premier's that are claimed to be american made truly american or are they mostly foriegn made but assembled in America? 

Someone please enlighten us about these components. Cork? Reel Seats? Thread? Paint? etc etc? just so we know these are truly American.


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## Smead

crappiecat said:


> I'm curious about these St Croix "American" made rods. Are these Premier's that are claimed to be american made truly american or are they mostly foriegn made but assembled in America?
> 
> Someone please enlighten us about these components. Cork? Reel Seats? Thread? Paint? etc etc? just so we know these are truly American.


Croix takes e-mail inquiries...ask them.

However, it appears that the blanks are made domestically...unless the information available at the Croix site is a complete false flag operation...I'd wager that the seats and guides are made in Japan...Fuji...that doesn't bother me since slave wages aren't paid in Japan. High quality cork comes from Spain...don't know where they get their's though. 

On the other hand, something made in China is made in China.


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## Rod Hawg

I have a St. Corix and it was made in Mexico.


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## Smead

Rod Hawg said:


> I have a St. Corix and it was made in Mexico.


Triumph, Mojo Bass, Mojo Musky and Eyecon are made in Mexico.

Premier, Avid, Legend Extreme, Legend Elite, Wild River and the Legend Tournaments are made in Wisconsin.


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## Rod Hawg

Yup! I got a Mojo Bass 7ft. Medium Heavy for Pike and Big Largies.


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## walleyejigger

i have 10 of there rods premier and mojo bass and love them all i broke a mojo rod this year sent it back had a new rod in 2 weeks . as long as the warrenty them i will keep buying them


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## Bucket Mouth

Smead said:


> Are you willing step forward and be the first amoungst us to take at least a 50% cut in pay to help stockholders??
> 
> I'm sure that they would appreciate that.


Well, how about you buy stocks in the companies that are competitive, and then you will be profiting from successful businesses? Since I don't own any stocks, I have no vested interest in what stock prices are other than I would like to see companies stay competitive so that they can continue to offer me quality products at prices that are reasonable to me.

Stated differently - a business only stays in business if they offer their products at acceptable prices with acceptable quality standards. It has to be a win-win situation for both the company AND the consumer. If one loses out, the deal will not be made. If the price is too high, I will not buy their product. I will buy it from one of their competitors. IF the price is too low, the business will not make money and will be forced to close at some point. The same can be said about quality. Cost/quality has a DIRECT impact on business viability and staying power. 

I would _like_ to purchase an American made rod, but if I find a rod that is better quality for the same price (or cheaper), from a non-U.S. manufacturer, I will not hesitate to purchase that rod. I want to get the most out of my money, and all financially-savvy consumers have the same mindset. There is nothing wrong with that. If I perceive I am getting value from rod (a) that I cannot get with rod (b), that is all that matters.

Me taking a 50% paycut has nothing to do with business transactions as described above.

Rather, there are numerous variables that directly intervene with why businesses are moving their manufacturing overseas - none of which are appropriate to discuss in this post about rod manufacturing.


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## Smead

Bucket Mouth said:


> Well, how about you buy stocks in the companies that are competitive, and then you will be profiting from successful businesses? Since I don't own any stocks, I have no vested interest in what stock prices are other than I would like to see companies stay competitive so that they can continue to offer me quality products at prices that are reasonable to me.
> 
> Stated differently - a business only stays in business if they offer their products at acceptable prices with acceptable quality standards. It has to be a win-win situation for both the company AND the consumer. If one loses out, the deal will not be made. If the price is too high, I will not buy their product. I will buy it from one of their competitors. IF the price is too low, the business will not make money and will be forced to close at some point. The same can be said about quality. Cost/quality has a DIRECT impact on business viability and staying power.
> 
> I would _like_ to purchase an American made rod, but if I find a rod that is better quality for the same price (or cheaper), from a non-U.S. manufacturer, I will not hesitate to purchase that rod. I want to get the most out of my money, and all financially-savvy consumers have the same mindset. There is nothing wrong with that. If I perceive I am getting value from rod (a) that I cannot get with rod (b), that is all that matters.
> 
> Me taking a 50% paycut has nothing to do with business transactions as described above.
> 
> Rather, there are numerous variables that directly intervene with why businesses are moving their manufacturing overseas - none of which are appropriate to discuss in this post about rod manufacturing.


You seemed to feel that labor costs here are excessive...you were invited to help things by lowering yours.

I take it that you aren't interested in such a proposition??


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## Smead

Yes, I know that I'm being mean.

However...



> I would like to purchase an American made rod, but if I find a rod that is better quality for the same price (or cheaper), from a non-U.S. manufacturer, I will not hesitate to purchase that rod. I want to get the most out of my money, and all financially-savvy consumers have the same mindset. There is nothing wrong with that. If I perceive I am getting value from rod (a) that I cannot get with rod (b), that is all that matters.


Well, if that's all that matters, what happens when you don't have a country to live in...at least one that doesn't resemble something out of Mad Max??

Just curious...What do you do for a living and how you you expect to be insulated from the consequences of your countrymen failing economically en mass??

Absolute economic therory is fine...but it isn't the real world is it???

Arguing positions from textbooks isn't the same as smelling the smoke and hearing the screams...that applies to everything by the way.

This of course goes beyond mere fishing rods.

Do you really want to go back to the early middle ages as far as a society goes...where anyone who had much more than a pot to piss in had to defend it ruthlessly and constantly??

So you primly argue your economic theory and we end up with 10% well off and 90% desitute...that's ballpark 30 million people affluent versus 270 million in rags. Do you think that you have what it takes to survive in such a world??

Money's global now...those interests don't care. They'll be where ever conditions are best; you however, will most likely be stuck here.


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## Bucket Mouth

Smead said:


> Yes, I know that I'm being mean.
> 
> However...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if that's all that matters, what happens when you don't have a country to live in...at least one that doesn't resemble something out of Mad Max??
> 
> Just curious...What do you do for a living and how you you expect to be insulated from the consequences of your countrymen failing economically en mass??
> 
> Absolute economic therory is fine...but it isn't the real world is it???
> 
> Arguing positions from textbooks isn't the same as smelling the smoke and headring the screams...that applies to everything by the way.
> 
> This of course goes beyond mere fishing rods.
> 
> Do you really want to go back to the early middle ages as far as a society goes...where anyone who had much more than a pot to piss in had to defend it ruthlessly and constantly??
> 
> So you primly argue your economic theory and we end up with 10% well off and 90% desitute...that's ballpark 30 million people affluent versus 270 million in rags. Do you think that you have what it takes to survive in such a world??
> 
> Money's global now...those interests don't care. They'll be where ever conditions are best; you however, will most likely be stuck here.


Not only attempting at being mean, but also proving you have a very flacid grasp on economics, as well as history. You keep defending markert intervention (which got us in this mess) and I'll take my free market economics. Your cries fall on deaf ears in every other post you have and this one is no different.


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