# Brute Walleye of Berlin? (Doboy)



## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

I know Berlin is a sleeper for 4 to 6 lb. walleye. Also the largest walleye I've ever seen caught was at Berlin. I know when, where, what on and how it was caught. Even bigger than the big hogs on Lake Erie. I did not catch it.

A while back I posted, if You hire a good guide in Canada, You will be asked if You want numbers or trophies. The reason why is because eyes up to 22" and those 24" and up have different needs for many different reasons. Have to fish for one or the other.

If You have seen the eyes in the milking nets You can't help ask why more of the 24" to 26" and larger eyes are not caught or are they?? HUM!
I have always fished Berlin the same way everyone else does and catch the smaller walleye, 22" and under.

I am going to be a trophy hunter for a while. I ask, does anyone else target the larger Berlin eyes and get them??? Or caught any at all by accident. Looking for more incentive. I HAVE A LOT OF DUES TO PAY!

That Doboy got me good when he posted the pics of his Pymie Friend with a limit of BRUTE walleye. Thannnnnks Doboy!! I'M NO MORE NO GOOD!!!


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## TopCat (Sep 27, 2006)

The biggest walleye I've caught from Betlin was last spring and it went 6 pounds. I got it trolling a crawler harness - pink blade, white back -- off the sunken island by the campground. Fish were holding on the bottom just off the hump in about 12 feet of water. It was early morning. Fishing the same way I caught plenty of smaller ones, too. My guess is if I were to trophy hunt I might troll larger cranks.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

What a post! Thank You!!! Man You are right on my learning curve.

You see, one 6 lbder. mixed in with the hammer handles. I am trying to put the puzzle to together. Where are the schools of larger fish? We all know they are their and I want to find them. Thank You again!! 

Any and all posts are appreciated.


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## Glasstream90Yamadog (Apr 26, 2011)

Good luck trying to figure out the big fish pattern...I've not done it yet. I would have to question how familiar you are with Erie though thinking that Berlin holds bigger fish. I talked to a guy out there fishing Berlin with his two sons about a month ago and they were fishing Berlin because the big pond was a little too rough that day. He said he was on Erie the week before with a boat of four guys and they limited out on 12lb+ fish. A buddy I work with caught his limit through the ice this year and the fish were all 8-10lb'rs. I'm thinking about getting a Ranger 620vs next yr. so that I can go after those 12lb+ pigs.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Thank You ! I saw ONE huge walleye caught at Berlin. I just want to try and be more consistent catching the 24" to 26" instead of 14.75". Not the end of the world. Just a fishing goal. I hope You enjoy Lake Erie. Tight Lines to You.


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

I've caught as many as twenty five 14.75" ers out there in one spot. I fish that spot because on another day, same time of day, same time of year, same program, I got my PB eye for Berlin, a 5# er! I personally think they frequent, the same general areas, just foraging/swimming thru feeding grounds by schools of same sizes. The bigger ones do not have a "cave"(special place) to go hide in when we're hunting them. I think the bigger ones do feed at night preferring to "get away" from all the noise and commotion that goes on out there in the daylight. I knew a guy who swore(and a friend of mine who occasionally fished with him confirmed it), he can go out there(at night) and fish some of the flats(north of 224) just off the main river channel with big chubs, and catch hog walleye routinely. Must be true, big fish like big baits!


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Good point C.J. about nomadic feeders. Any opinions on where they go when off the feed in a neutral mood, or if they feed in big schools versus small groups?


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

When did they start calling Berlin the walleye Capitol of the world..


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

We all know that's Mosquito, Tom. Just some inland bound guys talking abt inland lakes that harbor some hogs. They're in every inland walleye lake,you've witnessed them in the nets at at Skeeter yourself! How does someone target them? How would you do it at Mosquito? That's the issue! Actually, I'd bet some guys are getting them(someone in the top 10%!) They just don't talk about it.
Just like when the striper stocking was halted at WB. No one ever reported catching them(many of us were-at night!) so the state decided it wasn't working and went to wipers.


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

chatterbox said:


> Good point C.J. about nomadic feeders. Any opinions on where they go when off the feed in a neutral mood, or if they feed in big schools versus small groups?


They have to go to the channel. Not a deep lake but that's the deepest place for them to hang in. Don't think the issue is that they're nomadic, "nocturnal" has to be the key!


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## fishnmachine (Sep 20, 2014)

Caught a 23 last week 2 ft below slip on a 1 in crappie minnow in a tree 3ft of water....fish had a five inch panfish in its stomach. Does that help. The fish you seek are a small percentage of the overall population and if you are not catching 200 to 300 a year you are unlikely to see more than a few a year if any....fish the lake 30 to fifty days a year and you will see half a dozen or more of the larger fish. Not many secrets on berlin. Time on the water is what it takes.


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## fishfighter (Feb 15, 2015)

Time on the water is a big plus. They can be had, just have to put the time in.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

C.j. that area alone is big and deep all the way to the dam. I think that may be my starting place. 

A 6lb. walleye will eat four, four or five inch crappies a night. That is an obstacle too. They don't feed as often as the smaller ones. 

All food for thought. Thanks!


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Time on the water. Yelp, I am chomping at the bit to retire. Won't come soon enough.


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## TopCat (Sep 27, 2006)

Here's another angle I want to try, and here's why. Some of you know I work in media. Last year I was doing a story on the DNR and their electro fishing survey for bass at Berlin at this time of year. While out on a shocking survey one evening, they brought quite a few decent sized walleyes to the surface. I asked one of the DNR guys if that was typical. He told me they usually bring even more to the top, and that they're often big fish. This was in the arm that runs down by Fewtown Road. The DNR guy says the bigger fish move up into the shallows to feed on bedding bluegills and to chase shad that run up in there at dusk and after dark this time of year. I want to go back out there soon and fish it at dusk/dark with jigs or shallow cranks, or troll just off those areas with larger cranks either late afternoon or early morning.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Top cat, I read that post and took notes. I know they are there. Walleye fishermen on Berlin have tight lips. I am going to try and get more consistent at finding them. Not just spawning time or in may but every month with soft water. I know it is a tall order and I really appreciate all YOU fellow fishermen helping me think out of the box. THANKS!


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## Krt1911 (Mar 30, 2014)

I am no expert at all, but i feel it all comes down to food. The key to all predator fish is forage. Bigger fish require more and or bigger forage. It may not be the same type of forage that the smaller fish are using. I would think if you are catching very small eye ie 12" and under the larger fish are not there. However if they are much bigger than that there is a good chance larger fish are present as well. Larger fish just may not be as aggressive, because they have mastered their hunting skills. These fish will be 10+ years olds. That's a long time to survive and learn a small area.

So I guess what I am saying is Big bait Big fish.
Good luck


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey chatterbox,,, Thanks,,,, remember the info that I posted along with my friends Pymi HOG pic??? (OVER 8# limit)
It was almost word for word,,,,, that was stated by DNR guy & just posted by TopCat.
"The DNR guy says *"the bigger fish move up into the shallows to feed on bedding bluegills and to chase shad that run up in there at dusk and after dark this time of year*. *I want to go back out there soon and fish it at dusk/dark with jigs or shallow cranks"*

"SHALLOW CRANKS" ie FLOATERS perfectly tuned to float flat or hover just inches below the surface.
(Read in the lake Erie forum, 'Shore night casting for huge eyes')
My friends whole 'night casting' key is WEEDS & shallow water,,,, usually under 4'. 
You won't mark those big eyes in deep water, 'cause they are not there!

PYMI is his #1 'cause of the alewives stocking years ago. 
& Because of the millions of those 5"-6" alewives in that lake, the perch & crappie population & their size, is exploding! The eyes have something else, & typically easier, to eat. The alewives feed on the bugs that are on the surface above those weeds.
lol,,, Maybe I'll look for his picture of the Pymi 12#er that he sent me!

Flashback, 35+ years.
An old neighborhood friend's father took me to pymi to teach me a thing or two about catching big eyes in July. It was when the weeds,,, the grass and pads were touching the surface.
(You know that big cove just S of the primitive camping area on the NW side?)
We were in his little 12' -9.9 boat.
There we were,,, Mepps spinners, doubled-over nightcrawlers, FLAT-LINING through, & ON TOP of those weed-beds!
We were making wake,, those spinners were skipping across the surface,,, we had to stop & clean the weeds off of the prop after every 200yd pass,,, BUT we caught one or two 3# + walleyes, on every pass, till we got our limit! Believe me,,, It didn't take too long or too many passes!
The toughest part was stopping that boat and cranking in those lines & walleyes when they went down into that thick grass,,,, I'll never forget those days,,,, 

lol,,, "BIG Walleyes" = cold-dark-deep water,,,, B S! ;>)


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## HappySnag (Dec 20, 2007)

main think is,you have to locate the fish,
this happen to me 2 weeks a go
frend call me if I like to go trolling for eyes,by Mentor Headland beach,he told me he pick one eye last week.
I went trolling,we trolled 3 hours,no bump,could not sea any fish on fish finder.he ask me what we should do?
I told him loo for perch and we will try to get some perch,he was driving around and could not find anything,i told him go to the hump and we anchor and fish for perch,there were no fish on fish finder,after some time my frend picked few jumbo perch,i had nothing,few minutes later,i had nible,I set the hook and the rod almoust jump out of my hand,i was able to hold that with end of fingers,it was wery hevy fish fighting,i gave her free ride 15' and she was of,after few minutes I hit somting heavy again ,I say get the net,got her to the top in the net 30" eye,next 2 hours we hit 10 eyes,everything around 30",we last 4 on the way up.
we were using no biger than 1" minows on 3 hook spreders,if you did not tuch the bottom you have no bite,
that was my best perch fishing in 30 years,6 eyes and 12 jumbo perch.
it was total luck we anchor in that spot.

thanks snag


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## Bw3 (Jan 23, 2013)

My biggest walleye from Berlin 29in 10.5# caught 4/1/06


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## Bw3 (Jan 23, 2013)




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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Good luck chasing the big girls Chatterbox. They are more predictable this time of year but it's still hard for me to venture away from the areas that hold the quantity over quality when the bite is hot like it is now. You have to weed through the 14 inch fish but a limit of 16-22 inch eyes can be had pretty easily in those areas and at a faster catch rate. Lots of guys know where the pigs roam, so I'm curious to see the results from the tourneys this weekend. Those guys usually are very tight lipped when it comes to giving any info on their hot spots. A lot of people assume they are bass or crappie fishing when they see them casting shallow shore lines and beating the bushes and points in the back bays. It's a wide spread assumption that walleye don't like shallow water, but that couldn't be further from the truth, especially before the water hits summer temps. They will go anywhere the easy meal is.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

There is no way for me to say how much each of Your post mean to me! A great bunch of fishermen that I respect totally. I'll be a work in progress for a while and may never reach the level I want. As c.j. stone says " The upper 10%." Even so, I'm going to try.


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## Murphygold (Apr 2, 2015)

Last week caught 2 16's one 14 one 12 in her walleye and one 23 inch walleye, can't imagine that the bigger walleye aren't with all the 14 7/8 inchers, just harder to catch


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## s.w.a.t.t6935 (Aug 7, 2012)

My buddy Dave also caught a 29" 10.2 # hog out of Berlin three years ago on a blue and white vibe right befor the ice was on But besides berlin I had a killer day on pymo yesterday fished the pymo lake associations walleye tournament and got 1st caught some monsters and lost some also only weighed 3 fish had 14.015 lbs. what. A day we were limited out and throwing back 19" fish @ 10.15 kept the first few 16" fish not knowing how the day was gunna turn out


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## ducky152000 (Jul 20, 2005)

we got big fish with a 7.2 saw a lot of 3 to 5 lb fish and a few 6s. I will say we was fishing in skinny water!


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## s.w.a.t.t6935 (Aug 7, 2012)

ducky152000 said:


> we got big fish with a 7.2 saw a lot of 3 to 5 lb fish and a few 6s. I will say we was fishing in skinny water!


Big fish where at pymo?


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

All Eyes said:


> Good luck chasing the big girls Chatterbox. They are more predictable this time of year but it's still hard for me to venture away from the areas that hold the quantity over quality when the bite is hot like it is now. You have to weed through the 14 inch fish but a limit of 16-22 inch eyes can be had pretty easily in those areas and at a faster catch rate. Lots of guys know where the pigs roam, so I'm curious to see the results from the tourneys this weekend. Those guys usually are very tight lipped when it comes to giving any info on their hot spots. A lot of people assume they are bass or crappie fishing when they see them casting shallow shore lines and beating the bushes and points in the back bays. It's a wide spread assumption that walleye don't like shallow water, but that couldn't be further from the truth, especially before the water hits summer temps. They will go anywhere the easy meal is.


Excellent points! But, it even works after the the summer temps hit, depending on how hot the summer is. Last year my BIL and I hit Pymy on a mid-summer day to fish shallow for bass. I started out casting a bright chartreuse spinnerbait and my first fish was a 19" 'eye! 4 or 5 FOW along a weed edge. My BIL was catching 'eyes in 2 to 4 FOW off the sides of a gravel bar before the cold front and storm blew through last Monday evening. The water temps in the shallows dropped 7 degrees which blew the bait fish out of there, and the 'eyes followed.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

s.w.a.t.t6935 said:


> My buddy Dave also caught a 29" 10.2 # hog out of Berlin three years ago on a blue and white vibe right befor the ice was on But besides berlin I had a killer day on pymo yesterday fished the pymo lake associations walleye tournament and got 1st caught some monsters and lost some also only weighed 3 fish had 14.015 lbs. what. A day we were limited out and throwing back 19" fish @ 10.15 kept the first few 16" fish not knowing how the day was gunna turn out


Big congrats to you! That's a real nice haul and I'm sure it was a heck of a lot of fun. Very nice crappie to go along with them also. That first one closest to the walleye is a bruiser!


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

I completely agree with the "skinny water" theories. 80% of my inland lake fishing is pretty near a shoreline. On Erie, most of the big fish I've caught on soft water seemed to be quite deep(colder water temps there means that's where the "baitfish" are). My PB 5#er at Berlin was casting a shallow point early one morning(have never fished walleye at night from a boat)! I fish mostly the "willows"(front, sides, And Backsides!) early and late and can usually dredge up some legal fish in what is obviously skinny depths. So this tells me these areas are where the fish feed. I usually troll 14-18 ft late morning to early evening times but usually only catch channels. Trolling shallower only gets me hand-ups though many people do it regularly, and more successfully. I need to learn this technique but might be running out of time to learn new methods?!


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Murphygold said:


> Last week caught 2 16's one 14 one 12 in her walleye and one 23 inch walleye, can't imagine that the bigger walleye aren't with all the 14 7/8 inchers, just harder to catch


There are some larger ones mixed in with the 14 7/8" inch fish, but walleye and especially saugeye like to hang out in a somewhat close proximity to their own class. If you catch a couple 10 inch saugeye, the chances of catching a trophy in the same spot is pretty slim. The same goes for walleye, but it's more of a general guideline with them than a rule.
And as CJ Stone mentioned, the back side, or shore side of the flooded willows may only be a foot deep, but I pulled an 18" eye out of an area like that last week that was probably even less than a foot. The wind was pushing the bait fish up in there and I saw them scattering and jumping in panic mode. I love seeing that because you know they are being chased by something hungry.
As far as shallow trolling cranks, you will get hung up more, but select baits that will dive to the target depth at whatever speed and length of line you need to just let them tap bottom here and there instead of dragging them too much. A semi-loose drag is also a good idea for shallow trolling. I rarely ever loose crankbaits to snags. Just circle back and they usually pop free when you get on the other side of whatever it's hung on. Lure retrievers also come in real handy when they are stubborn.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Are You guys thinking to fish for the brute walleye the same as You would bass picking up a 3lbder here and a 6lbder there up and down the shore line? In Berlin that is the pattern when they come off the spawn, food is not as plenty full, and the bait fish are seeking warmer water as in May.

Picture this. We have very little weed cover because of draw downs. It's mid July. There are shad balls top to 20' deep. Skinny water temps 82'. A lot of willows don't even have water. Boat traffic is high. No posts of any caught from Berlin on O.G.F. Thermocline 18'. Typical Berlin.

From rt. 14 to the dam water depths are 0' to 60' deep. No fish seen on fish finder. O.G.F. reports of channel cats on fire. Walleye will eat those night crawlers too. Where do the 22" to 26" walleye go?


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Someone mentioned the larger fish are usually not mixed in with the "shorts". I agree with this, however someone else said they are,sometimes! This winter, 200 yds west of Rattlesnake on Erie ice over 24 ft of water, my son caught a ten inch eye on a jigging rapala. Not 2 minutes later, he caught a TEN pounder!(same hole!). I think the ten pounder was there to Eat the smaller ones! The point of this is "Erie will flat spoil you"!!


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

We catch the bigs in same places we catch th smalls. But i think the big uns become more nomadic


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks Ballast. That tells us may be trolling in 12' of water and cover lots of water is a summer pattern. Worth a try!


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

chatterbox said:


> From rt. 14 to the dam water depths are 0' to 60' deep. No fish seen on fish finder. O.G.F. reports of channel cats on fire. Walleye will eat those night crawlers too. Where do the 22" to 26" walleye go?


As ballast says, they become nomadic rogues scattered around the lake in the summer months, mostly feeding at night or low light hours on shallow flats and points that are somewhat close to deeper water. Your best bet is trolling the flats and edges of drop offs if fishing daylight hours. That's the general consensus anyways. They def can throw a wrench in traditional wisdom sometimes though. You think you understand their ways, and then catch them in a few feet of water at the peak of the day in mid summer. Saugeye are especially known for that. They love skinny water. 
As far as them grouping by size, I think the smaller ones try to avoid the big ones, not the other way around. They can be mixed, but catching lots of smalls in one area can be a sign to look elsewhere for quality fish. At least it's always worked out that way for me. Regarding the no fish seen on the depth finder question, unless they are suspended, a lot of times walleye wont mark on electronics because they are kissing bottom.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

c. j. stone is right about Lake Erie. I want to try and stay away from Erie for that reason. Mother nature just does not allow me to get out as often as I want on Erie and after I retire, LOOK OUT! Remember, I like to bass fish and Love Small river fishing too.


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

Yeah. We night trolled at berlin last year middle of summer to avoid boat traffic and thinking the same thing. Pulled 1 22in eye in the same kind of location 8fow next to 12ft drop . I threw cranks at the shoreline with minimal success (probably because it was dark out and i wasn't casting the best) but idk?


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## ducky152000 (Jul 20, 2005)

s.w.a.t.t6935 said:


> Big fish where at pymo?


Berlin


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

All Eyes, Are you suggesting there is no summer pattern? May explain why so very few reports of catches in the summer months. I have noticed many people declare Berlin to be a great walleye lake including the fisheries biologist, but most people only catch hammer handles in May. I have never seen a report of more than one brute walleye at a time, and none say it is very often.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

chatterbox said:


> All Eyes, Are you suggesting there is no summer pattern? May explain why so very few reports of catches in the summer months. I have noticed many people declare Berlin to be a great walleye lake including the fisheries biologist, but most people only catch hammer handles in May. I have never seen a report of more than one brute walleye at a time, and most say it is not very often.


The summer pattern is trolling and covering as much water as possible because the eyes are more scattered. And trust me, there are plenty of larger eyes caught in May that aren't reported. Maybe not wall hangers, but lots of nice ones are caught by a small percentage of guys every year. Some of them guys are just ridiculous and you can fish right beside them with matching gear and baits and they will still out fish us almost every time. A couple of my friends make me sick! My friend Brian can catch a limit of walleye in a bird bath. I think they have a natural smell on their fingers or something.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

When it comes right down to it, like anything else it's the time spent practicing. You will never meet a great guitar player or mechanic or fisherman who did not put the time in to get that way. If you are the average guy who enjoys fishing but isn't on the water many days a year, you can't expect to keep up with people who do. You can read about it all day but you are only going to get better by going out and doing it. Sometimes reading about fishing can screw you up more than help because writers tend to get creative with some new angle that makes their article more appealing. I quit reading the monthly mags long ago because of that reason. You can only write about the same old thing for so long. Most of what they say is paid for by sponsors trying to sell you something anyways. It's like golfing tips. If you read enough of them while trying to learn your head will explode. Stick to the basics that are proven to work and get better at them.


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## dirtandleaves (Sep 28, 2009)

This is BY FAR the best thread I've ever read on ogf. +1 for starting this chatterbox. I'm just trying to be a sponge and soak up all this great info. I've caught eyes from the causeway during the spawn but yesterday was my buddy and my first time fishing it from a boat and we didn't have much to show for our effort other than a pretty good sunburn..OUCH!! We caught a few fish apiece but no eyes. Gonna try to put all this great info to use when we go back in a few days. Thanks to all who have commented. GREAT THREAD


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## KVD jr. (Jul 20, 2011)

Atowngolfer and I went out doing one of those shocks with the DNR on Berlin about 3 years ago. Main species was bass but I do remeber bunch of walleye surfacing. I would say most of them were 15"-20" in length and a few above that but we were going by docks and brush on shoreline. It was pretty cool how they do that. I know they take one guest per boat out at a time. It was a long night and got pretty boring for me after a while since no one one wanted to talk to me. It was more of a sit back, watch experience. Thought I would go to try to find the honey holes easier lol


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Everyone, I want to Thank You for making this a great and fun thread. I really appreciate when others add to my post so jump in any time. We can all take something with us, especially a . 

I am an O.G.F. member to make friends, learn, and have fun. I don't have to catch fish on every outing. I am so thankful just to get out! Tight Lines!!!!


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## russelld (Jun 10, 2013)

chatterbox said:


> Everyone, I want to Thank You for making this a great and fun thread. I really appreciate when others add to my post so jump in any time. We can all take something with us, especially a .
> 
> I am an O.G.F. member to make friends, learn, and have fun. I don't have to catch fish on every outing. I am so thankful just to get out! Tight Lines!!!!


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## russelld (Jun 10, 2013)

Amen it just trip not the des nation


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## TopCat (Sep 27, 2006)

While we're talking about Berlin, I love to fish that lake. I don't always have access to a boat. Anyone who does and wants to fish it sometime, I'm always good for covering the cost of fuel and bait. PM me if you ever have an open seat.


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## WALLEYE WALLHANGIN' (May 10, 2008)

Pulled a 28" in 2010. Jig/crawler in 14 fow. Long time ago....Lake Erie has me spoiled now...


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Fished Berlin today from 10:00 - 4:00. 2nd time in a row fighting hurricane wind out there. A real pain in the butt to do any casting or most anything else for that matter. Ended up with 7 eyes total. Only one keeper at 18", 6 crappie, a huge white bass around 18" and a channel cat about 3 lbs. 6 of the walleye caught on Big Joshy swimbaits and one on jig and crawler. Crappie caught trolling small cranks in 10 -12 fow. Boat control and trying to maintain bottom was almost impossible. That gets old real quick. I hate trying to crawl the shorelines and casting when the boat is blowing that fast. Still better than staying home though.


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

We got a few lil fellas


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Martha at Les's was saying they did some shocking there yesterday. She said the eyes were plentiful in 6 fow.
And Ballast, that looks about right.  That wind sucked didn't it?


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

I absolutely froze on the way back in. Gave up on casting cranks too... Jiggin day for sure


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Catching the white caps on the way back in and the spray was soaking me. That's some cold water on sunburn! It felt great today back in some coves out of the wind. I ran down by Fewtown Rd. for a while and picked up a couple eyes and white bass casting swimbaits. It was about half as windy and I could actually feel my lure for a change.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

A lot of thought provoking ideas in this thread. I really like All Eyes idea that if 'eyes do segregate by size, it's because the little ones want to get away from the big ones. I think it might be like trout in a stream. The bigger fish take the prime lies, and the little ones have to give way. 

If you're fishing a lake and catching nothing but small 'eyes, I figure any number of things could be going on. There might be nothing but small 'eyes there. That doesn't mean the bigger fish are a mile away. They could be a few feet up or down the breakline you're fishing. Or the other side of the bar or hump where the wind is blowing into it rather than away from it. 

Or you could be using a presentation, or bait, that only appeals to the smaller fish and need to switch up. 

The switch up could involve the time of day, but that might not be possible for many people. I'm a big fan of fishing shallow flats in low light conditions. That doesn't just mean in the dark. It could mean extremely stained water. I've caught 'eyes in 4 to 6 FOW under a bright noonday sun! But, you'd lose sight of a bright yellow jig and twister 2 to 3 inches down! Our only solution was to throw live bait out there, crawlers and minnows with crawlers working better, and let them sit until the 'eyes could find them. Fishing to test your patience. Why the fish were up on that flat at that time of day, I have no idea! 

Finding them there in the dark makes more sense. The more I think about it, it seems to me that big walleye are kind of like big whitetail bucks. They don't get to be big by being stupid. It's like Richard Pryor said in a comedy bit he did. "Young people think old people are fools! I got news for y'all. You don't get be old, being a fool!" A big whitetail buck will bed down on your back porch as long as he's not bothered. When are big fish most likely to not be bothered? 

All these considerations bring home the notion of "that's why they call it fishing, not catching". But every once in a while, if you're paying attention, the fishing *does* become catching! We've all experienced it, and man, is it fun! I guess that's one of the reasons we go out there.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

In a nut shell, the big walleye are females. Do you really need question that they think differently?


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## Murphygold (Apr 2, 2015)

buckeyebowman said:


> A lot of thought provoking ideas in this thread. I really like All Eyes idea that if 'eyes do segregate by size, it's because the little ones want to get away from the big ones. I think it might be like trout in a stream. The bigger fish take the prime lies, and the little ones have to give way.
> 
> If you're fishing a lake and catching nothing but small 'eyes, I figure any number of things could be going on. There might be nothing but small 'eyes there. That doesn't mean the bigger fish are a mile away. They could be a few feet up or down the breakline you're fishing. Or the other side of the bar or hump where the wind is blowing into it rather than away from it.
> 
> ...


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## Murphygold (Apr 2, 2015)

Nailed it there right smack on the head!!!!!!


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Murphygold said:


> Nailed it there right smack on the head!!!!!!


X2 If you look at underwater video of walleye, you may notice that you rarely see real little ones swimming with big ones. That doesn't necessarily mean they are at the other end of the lake. Just usually not in the same group.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Hey! All Eyes you forgot how much work sucks too, but whole lot better than going hungry! Just got home.

When I was a teenager I would wade the willows around German Church road in tennis shows and blue jeans. Only carried two 13 floating rapalas and caught 26+" eyes in a foot of water starting at 10:00 P.M. I just don't remember so much mud. 

I bought a 52qt. cooler that I am going to convert to a live bait well. Lewzer told me that is what he uses to keep large chubs alive. I did some leg work and read You can keep a dozen 6" chubs alive for every 8 qts. I am not sure crank baits or trolling are the best way to go any more on Berlin. I SAID BEST WAY. Just don't give the eyes enough time to locate before out of site again. I am going to use big chubs on a lindy rig starting this week end. My thought is slower presentation, sent attraction, and big bait bigger fish.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm no Al Linder, but some of these guys in here might give him a run for his money. (You know who you are) They all catch dinks in these inland lakes like everyone else, but if you'll notice they usually don't weed through nearly as many of them in between quality fish. 
Things that make you go hmmm


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## TopCat (Sep 27, 2006)

I like the live bait idea. Maybe slip bobbers... something like this:


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Some of that "timber" sure looks similar to our inland lakes!! Got to try that.


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

Dad hooked up some slip bobber rigs yesterday, we didn't use um.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Other attributes of live bait include good no matter what water temps., any depth capability, it is an all season presentation, You don't have any problems getting into tight places and it's fun and satisfying to catch your own. 

Maybe another tool to combat low visibility, fish wariness in shallow water, slow our heck tick lives down, and there is no crank bait that can compete with the real thing. Sure a lot of pluses huh?


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I like the live bait idea. Maybe slip bobbers... something like this:


I absolutely love slip bobbers! Some years back, my BIL and I were fishing a particularly gnarly stump field in Mosquito. We were snagging up left and right! I lost a tackle shop's worth of gear in there. Shoot, you could lose your identity in that stump field! The only reason we were fishing it was because we'd managed to catch a couple of nice 'eyes.

Well, after losing yet another crawler harness, I flipped open my tackle box to search for something else to tie on that wouldn't be so prone to snags. After gazing blankly at the box for a moment my eye spied a slip bobber, and the light bulb went on! I could set my baits to ride just above the tops of the stumps. Since walleye and crappie like to feed "up", I figured this could work. I cleaned up. 

Sometimes you get the "classic" bobber bite. The bobber begins to bounce, and then sinks as the fish pulls it down. With slip bobbers I've noticed something different, especially when fishing above the fish. The bobber will give a bounce or two, and then lay over on it's side. This means a fish has come up from below the bait, inhaled it, and is swimming along at the same depth. You need to take up slack and set the hook immediately! This fish has the bait in it's mouth!


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Once at a NEO walleye lake my young(at that time) son got bored during midday and put a bobber, splitshot and a whole crawler on his rod, set it as deep as he could still cast it(maybe 5 ft) and tossed it out.(We were sitting stationary in the boat on a flat lake in 12 or so ft of water.) A minute after he threw the bait rig out, the bobber disappears, he sets the hook expecting a panfish, reels in a fat 18" eye, then another, and a third one! That suspended school turned a slow, boring, warm day into a successful(and memorable!) fishing trip!


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## ducky152000 (Jul 20, 2005)

hopkins spoon, No. 1 big fish lure in my book. when I'm in a tournament and after I catch my limit. you can count on me throwing a hopkins spoon 99% of the time to find a kicker fish.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

ducky152000 said:


> hopkins spoon, No. 1 big fish lure in my book. when I'm in a tournament and after I catch my limit. you can count on me throwing a hopkins spoon 99% of the time to find a kicker fish.


Can't agree more! The No=Equals are one of my fav lures of all time. I hate the stainless hooks they come with but you can't beat them things on some days.


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## leadcorebean (Jul 17, 2006)

well theres so many directions to look at when going for the bigger fish but heres is my take on it. I do believe fish will seperate but i feel its the larger fish wanting to be away from the smaller just so they have they chance to really eat when they want and not have to compete. Just remember those fish got big for a reason but at some point they will screw up cause they always have to eat! The spot we fished for our tournament was holding the right fish beacause the the condintions were just what they wanted..mud,bait,and a little breeze with he 10 or so fish we caught from that area only one fish was a throw back and the rest being 18-23in and 21.5 was our smallest for weigh in. If u know certain areas of the lake that will produce the right conditions then go find more areas that setup the same way and i bet u will have better days on the lake..


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Thanks for the input leadcore.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

And speaking of Hopkins spoons, as some of you know I began making my own spoon versions years ago due to the expense of losing $4 spoons in the timber. Copper and brass tubing flattened and filled with lead. I've caught about everything that swims on these things. I don't see many people using jigging spoons other than for SM and stripers or hard water walleye, but at certain times you can't beat them casting shallower water for walleye and saugeye.


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## ducky152000 (Jul 20, 2005)

very nice all eyes!! My moto is if they won't hit a spoon they won't hit anything! There has been days where u can put a big creek chub in front of a saugeye face and he won't bite. but there is just something about a spoon they can not resist on days they have lock jaw. Its defintly a reaction bite. predator fish just can't pass up a bait that looks like a wounded bait fish. There has been more times than I can count where a buddy is throwing a jig and minow or lindy rigging live bait and i out fish him 10 to 1. using metal!


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## ducky152000 (Jul 20, 2005)

All Eyes said:


> Can't agree more! The No=Equals are one of my fav lures of all time. I hate the stainless hooks they come with but you can't beat them things on some days.


yeah I always change out the stainless hooks with red mustad tripple grips. they help reduce snagging also with the way the hook points are bent in.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

ducky152000 said:


> very nice all eyes!! My moto is if they won't hit a spoon they won't hit anything! There has been days where u can put a big creek chub in front of a saugeye face and he won't bite. but there is just something about a spoon they can not resist on days they have lock jaw. Its defintly a reaction bite. predator fish just can't pass up a bait that looks like a wounded bait fish. There has been more times than I can count where a buddy is throwing a jig and minow or lindy rigging live bait and i out fish him 10 to 1. using metal!


The action mimics fleeing baitfish really well, and also triggers a reaction that will catch fish between meal times. They dart erratically in a downward arch pattern on the drop, shooting out to one side or the other. If they tumble down or barrel roll on the fall they are basically useless.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

leadcorebean said:


> well theres so many directions to look at when going for the bigger fish but heres is my take on it. I do believe fish will seperate but i feel its the larger fish wanting to be away from the smaller just so they have they chance to really eat when they want and not have to compete.


It's my assumption that the small ones take second fiddle to the bigger fish, but the big ones seem to go anywhere they want. Whether they drive them out of certain areas or what, there is definitely some level of separation that takes place.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

c. j. stone said:


> Once at a NEO walleye lake my young(at that time) son got bored during midday and put a bobber, splitshot and a whole crawler on his rod, set it as deep as he could still cast it(maybe 5 ft) and tossed it out.(We were sitting stationary in the boat on a flat lake in 12 or so ft of water.) A minute after he threw the bait rig out, the bobber disappears, he sets the hook expecting a panfish, reels in a fat 18" eye, then another, and a third one! That suspended school turned a slow, boring, warm day into a successful(and memorable!) fishing trip!


Sorry to keep blowing up this thread, but when my daughter was around 5 (now 25) I set her up with a leech on a slip bobber and pulled into some shade on a point. A while after sitting there relaxing and messing with the boat, my daughter starts asking "daddy, where's my gobber?" I first thought she meant she had dropped candy or something and was looking on the floor of the boat. She then pointed out in the water and asked again, "where's my gobber? Her bail was open and I saw line slowly leaving the reel. I took up the slack and handed it back to her and she reeled in an 18" saugeye on a day when we couldn't buy a bite. Her and I still remember it like yesterday. She was so happy.


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## tommyboy (May 12, 2013)

All Eyes said:


> And speaking of Hopkins spoons, as some of you know I began making my own spoon versions years ago due to the expense of losing $4 spoons in the timber. Copper and brass tubing flattened and filled with lead. I've caught about everything that swims on these things. I don't see many people using jigging spoons other than for SM and stripers or hard water walleye, but at certain times you can't beat them casting shallower water for walleye and saugeye.
> View attachment 186518
> View attachment 186519
> View attachment 186521


Very Nice... looks like a good idea for a small winter project. Plus its always a good feeling when something you made works out and puts some fish in the livewell


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## Cashregisterface (Jun 1, 2012)

You fellas have the Ohio walleye messed up. The best walleye caught in the world are in Erie. I catch fish Ohio walleye regularly (28inches) on Erie any given time. Take you some planner boards and some husky jerks or perfect 10s out on Erie and you'll catch some real walleye. That lake Berlin is a good practice lake. But Erie is the trophy lake of the world


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

Not everyone has or wants a boat large enough to regularly fish Erie, or they may not want the associated costs of fuel and upkeep of an Erie boat and 3 hour round trip drives.

Frankly I am happy being able to drive across town to the "practice lake".


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## Overwatchmike (Mar 16, 2013)

One thing to remember is that electronics don't pick up shallow fish very well, even on Erie. Meaning if your in 30 fow and mark or see bait near the surface there very well could be large walleyes mixed in chasing those bait balls. Berlin usually stays muddy because of the high pleasure boat traffic which helps with walleyes light sensitive eyes. Another area to check and look for them is in any kind of wood. Maybe not the shallows, maybe all the Christmas trees and other man made structure they have placed to hold fish.


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## Cashregisterface (Jun 1, 2012)

Yea well didn't mean to make it sound like I was putting anything or anyone down. The meaning of my message was about fishing the right lakes for the right fish if you want size. Big walleye is lake erie. I only have an 18 footer and I'm a seasoned walleyer. If you want muskie you go to westbranch which I also do frequently. Sorry if I put my message across a little stronge. You fellas know what I mean. Good luck to all!!!


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

tommyboy said:


> Very Nice... looks like a good idea for a small winter project. Plus its always a good feeling when something you made works out and puts some fish in the livewell


Thank you. The late Jim Corey got me hooked on casting spoons many moons ago. My very first fish on one that I made took no time at all of being in the water to get hit! I was saugeye fishing at Atwood and pumped it once and thunk! I thought at first it was a big eye, but it was a 17" white bass. Not a big fan of them things, but it was still a great moment because it was my homemade creation and it was a PB white bass at that time. That def spoiled me and with the other fish I caught that day, fueled my drive to make tons of them. Since then I have caught 14 different species of fish on these things. It's hard to fish completely wrong with a spoon, but fishing completely right takes time to learn. To me, they are a necessity in my box right along with my jigs, cranks, blades, and live bait rigs, in no particular order of importance. All will shine in the right conditions.


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## leadcorebean (Jul 17, 2006)

Honestly Helen Keller can catch fish on Erie! To catch a fish good fish on an inland lake will truly humble you. I've had more fun fun catching and learning the inland side again in the last two years than the day I discovered Erie.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

No offense taken Cash. There is obviously no comparison between Erie and any inland lake for numbers and quality fish. But I can sit in my small boat and peacefully cast the shoreline in some back bay and just relax. I don't have to run 15 miles in 4 ft waves and spend tons of money on gas either. If it really just boiled down to the fish, I would just go to the grocery store.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Everyone, great posts! 

For years and years I have seen the same fishermen pattern on Berlin. That being walleye being caught till Memorial Day and then not a whisper of them being caught again until late fall, and very few pictures or reports of fish over 22". I know they are in there and they have to eat from June to November. After they moved out of the shallows I'd start bass fishing. It's like they disappear off the earth in summer. Any thoughts on where they go?


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

The same guys who get them in May still get them(and still don't tell!). I usually can scrape up a couple even during Dog Days. I'm like the old horse who knows only one way from, and to the barn. I still fish them shallow. Just depends, after Memorial Day, there's so much craziness on the main lake, I'll only go out in it to get to where I'll be fishing! Of course there's always the occasional "Papa Boat Rocker" who doesn't want the kiddies on their tubes exposed to the madness who will run at speed between me and the shore I'm casting!! Jeez, some people.....


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

louisvillefisherman said:


> *Not everyone has or wants a boat large enough to regularly fish Erie, or they may not want the associated costs of fuel and upkeep of an Erie boat and 3 hour round trip drives.*
> 
> *Frankly I am happy being able to drive across town to the "practice lake"*.



RIGHT-ON! ;>) LOL,,,, Erie is the EASY walleye lake,,, ANYBODY can catch 'em there!
Like 'WE' want some challenge!


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

A friend of mine went out Thursday late afternoon, for a coup'la hours after dark. He was jigging Vibes off a Berlin backwater bridge. He caught 5 very nice keeper eyes. 
He made it sound so easy,,,,,,,,
Why the hell can't I do it from a boat!?


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## crestliner TS (Jun 8, 2012)

Doboy said:


> RIGHT-ON! ;>) LOL,,,, Erie is the EASY walleye lake,,, ANYBODY can catch 'em there!
> Like 'WE' want some challenge!


Had to chime in....Lake Erie being EASY........that one made me choke on my coffee!


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

c. j. stone said:


> Of course there's always the occasional "Papa Boat Rocker" who doesn't want the kiddies on their tubes exposed to the madness who will run at speed between me and the shore I'm casting!! Jeez, some people.....










You need one of these shirts CJ


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

Berlin crappies. WAY easier then Berlin eyes,,,,,,, lmbo

Beekeeper & I went out yesterday for a RELAXING day of slip-bobber fishing,,,,, YA RIGHT!
Damn wind. 
I think we invented 50 more ways to SNAG-UP in a stump, fallen tree, or the willows! We were just about ready to bust our poles in half & throw EVERYTHING in the lake!!! (lol,,, Cumminsmoke taught me how to do that!!)
Seemed like we were re-tying our bobber rigs every 10 minutes! What a PITA!
Anyhow,,, the wind did slow down, kinda, for a while, late afternoon, & we did finally find the specks.
We ended up with 27 VERY SKINNY under-nourished specks, ,,, 2 - 22"-23" pike & I lost a 3# LMB at the net.
The egg sacks in the crappies were about 3/4" long and the bellies were chuck-full of 3/4" minnows! 
Are they JUST STARTING!?


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

All Eyes said:


> View attachment 186557
> You need one of these shirts CJ



*OMG,,, I LOVE THAT SHIRT! GOTTA HAVE ONE!*
BUT, I also want a picture of a L O N G barrel aka 'Clint Eastwood' .44 underneath!!! 
For those jet-skiers!


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Doboy said:


> Beekeeper & I went out yesterday for a RELAXING day of slip-bobber fishing,,,,, YA RIGHT!
> Damn wind.


Wind has been a factor for me in recent trips also. At least as far as the type of fishing I wanted to do which was casting crankbaits. I welcome wind when walleye fishing, but too much is too much. I switched to Big Joshy swimbaits which are heavier and easy to cast further distances in the wind. They helped turn a couple of bad days into average ones at least. The single hooks are also much easier to pull through the bushes without hang ups. Just something to consider when the wind is making it hard to cast light tackle.


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## crappieslayer63 (Feb 12, 2015)

Great thread guy's love all the info!


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## crappieslayer63 (Feb 12, 2015)




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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

OH LORD! You guys aren't right! L.M.A.O.  I get T-Shirts, .44 Magnum, and nice crappie. Where is the therapist? See, Doboy started it.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

So why do they call you Crappie slayer again?  Nice job!


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

That awkward moment when your therapist tells you he owns two jet skis.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

Forget the therapist and I'll just go right to the straight jacket! Suppose they make lake calls?


louisvillefisherman said:


> That awkward moment when your therapist tells you he owns two jet skis.


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## Crestliner167 (Apr 11, 2009)

Leadcorebean. If you would could you give us more detail on your fishing technical and preferred bait for your shallow water fishing at berlin. Any help would be appreciated. THANKS.


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## Crestliner167 (Apr 11, 2009)

louisvillefisherman said:


> Not everyone has or wants a boat large enough to regularly fish Erie, or they may not want the associated costs of fuel and upkeep of an Erie boat and 3 hour round trip drives.
> 
> Frankly I am happy being able to drive across town to the "practice lake".


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## crappieslayer63 (Feb 12, 2015)

When my 2 sons were little they would get so made at me for catching all the fish lol a nickname


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

crappieslayer63 said:


> When my 2 sons were little they would get so made at me for catching all the fish lol a nickname


They call me The Taco Slayer. Although I rarely ever get my limit


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## leadcorebean (Jul 17, 2006)

Nothing to technical really.. I use a 6lb fluorocarbon with jigs with either worms or minnows. Cranks work great also for covering lots of water fast


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Flicker Shads are pretty much the normal go to for both trolling and casting. Shad Raps also work well. I think many made the switch due to them being a couple dollars cheaper than the Rapala's. They both have a similar action. Lots of others, but those lead the pack.


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## chatterbox (Jan 7, 2013)

I personally won't use any cranks that don't rattle. I am a firm believer that sound helps the eyes locate them in muddy water.


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## Hard Water Squatter (Feb 27, 2015)

Glasstream90way
[QUOTE="Glasstream90Yamadog said:


> Good luck trying to figure out the big fish pattern...I've not done it yet. I would have to question how familiar you are with Erie though thinking that Berlin holds bigger fish. I talked to a guy out there fishing Berlin with his two sons about a month ago and they were fishing Berlin because the big pond was a little too rough that day. He said he was on Erie the week before with a boat of four guys and they limited out on 12lb+ fish. A buddy I work with caught his limit through the ice this year and the fish were all 8-10lb'rs. I'm thinking about getting a Ranger 620vs next yr. so that I can go after those 12lb+ pigs.


adog, post: 2019276, member: 27657"]Good luck trying to figure out the big fish pattern...I've not done it yet. I would have to question how familiar you are with Erie though thinking that Berlin holds bigger fish. I talked to a guy out there fishing Berlin with his two sons about a month ago and they were fishing Berlin because the big pond was a little too rough that day. He said he was on Erie the week before with a boat of four guys and they limited out on 12lb+ fish. A buddy I work with caught his limit through the ice this year and the fish were all 8-10lb'rs. I'm thinking about getting a Ranger 620vs next yr. so that I can go after those 12lb+ pigs.[/QUOTE]
Snowmobiles are the way to go. Even when the lake is froze shore to shore that ice expands and opens in places. It usually freezes right back over but you're only driving over a couple inches of ice. They're good through slush and deep snow too. Snowmobiles have better weight distribution than 4 wheelers or side by sides. It's nice not having to rely on the spring bite to put walleye in the freezer.


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## Cashregisterface (Jun 1, 2012)

Them perfect 10s are some big walleye attracters whether casting or off planner boards. But I've caught 10 pound plus fish even on the 800 little ripper reef runners. So who's to say?? Sometimes they want a meal. Sometimes a snack. Sometimes they hit it because it's in there area. Who knows.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

Fished Berlin a bit this morning until the WEE hours. No Brute walleye but picked up a few here and there. Half a dozen or so crappie, a decent LM and a chunky channel cat. Did some scouting around and sight seeing with a friend of mine so didn't put much fishing time in. Heading back in the morning. May just concentrate on crappie tomorrow. They are getting picked off pretty well.


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

We didn't do so great today, lost something big at the boat tho. Hooked up with two cats on cranks? Kinda odd.


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

We pulled 7 channel cats today trolling. One was 6lbs


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## randymcfishnsfun2 (Dec 24, 2014)

Not that odd. The spawn is onnnnn! Cats at wb are very aggressive right now...thought I had a decent ski but it was the biggest channel I almost ever caught, before she winked at me and ran straight down. Popped my 10lb mono like it was a piece of thread.


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## BassFishing123 (Jun 6, 2015)

Nothin but small walleye for me. Lots of that 14" stuff. Lots of bluegill and catfish jigging. Not much size. I just bought some flicker shads. Have you all been doing good on them?


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## coach76 (May 27, 2011)

I was fishing in flats area and was not doing real well, boat near me was catching walleye. I ask how was he fishing and he replied deep, near bottom. I put on a Strike King Series 3 sexy shad, which has not been a good lure, but ran at the right depth. It was mid July of 2012 and I ended up with 10 pound walleye.


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## percidaeben (Jan 15, 2010)

chatterbox said:


> What a post! Thank You!!! Man You are right on my learning curve.
> 
> You see, one 6 lbder. mixed in with the hammer handles. I am trying to put the puzzle to together. Where are the schools of larger fish? We all know they are their and I want to find them. Thank You again!!
> 
> Any and all posts are appreciated.


Big Bait means Big Fish


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Flicker shads may be one of the best baits going for inland lakes. They are constantly improving them-sizes, colors, etc. I like them because they run abt right depths for the inlands w/o a lot of extra terminal tackle and the price is reasonable, have used them trolling since they hit the market(simply cannot afford the other "hot" deep divers)!!


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## ballast (Sep 15, 2011)

I ran the flicker vs shad rap challenge at berlin. Flicker out produced 3-1. It has a more eradic wobble. I guesss


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