# Solo Canoe vs. Kayak for Stability



## Outdoorguy57 (11 mo ago)

I've noticed the seating location is lower in a Solo Canoe vs. standard canoe seating. This lower center of gravity could make it more stable. That being said, I've owned both kayaks and canoes and am I'm not fond of canoes for their lack of stability, compared to a kayak of the same length.

I'd like to hear from experienced Solo Canoe owners, as to how they compare to kayak stability. If it's not the same, I'll just stay with looking for another kayak. I'm currently "kayak-less". 

Thank you, Outdoorguy57


----------



## codger (Aug 16, 2020)

I have no experience with fishing kayaks, and my canoe has two seats and is 15'8" long, so hardly a solo, although I treat it as such. The only kayak I've been in was narrow (~24" IIRC) with a rounded bottom and very unstable. My canoe it about 30" beam, flat, and quite stable. If I was younger I would have no qualms with standing in it to fish. Since I'm 66 and (I would like to think) wiser, I remain seated almost all the time. I guess what I'm getting at is I imagine stability has to do with width and shape of bottom.


----------



## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

I don't solo canoe but I do kayak with a sit inside. Most solo canoe guys I know kneel in their canoe more centered similar to a kayak. Many solo guys are also using wider kayak paddles vs a canoe paddle.
You can carry more weight in a canoe vs a kayak. I have a tandem canoe and my canoe is rated at about 800 lbs way more than my kayaks. A canoe is easier to get in and out of vs a sit inside kayak.
Both are stable once you get used to each one. If your wanting to stand up you will need wider flat bottom design like fishing kayaks. In my choices for canoes and kayaks weight was always my biggest thing I was looking at. I do portage both so I want to be able to swing it onto my shoulders. Tough choice maybe just get both


----------



## chris1162 (Mar 12, 2008)

A solo canoe is very tippy. Most of the fishing models of sit on top kayaks are much more stable but can’t carry the weight a canoe can. I would much prefer a kayak if it were for me.


----------



## DeathFromAbove (Oct 21, 2008)

I've fell out of a lot of canoes, usually for little reason at all. I've never feel out of my kayak. I can stand and fish in my Jackson big Rig. Can't flip it up on my shoulders tho


----------



## Ten Bears (Jan 12, 2012)

I have enough trouble walking with waders and not falling down!


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

DeathFromAbove said:


> I've fell out of a lot of canoes, usually for little reason at all. I've never feel out of my kayak. I can stand and fish in my Jackson big Rig. Can't flip it up on my shoulders tho


I've had a Michicraft 18 foot, flat bottom canoe since 1988. Number of people who fell out is ZERO.
Also, that canoe is way more comfortable than the light weight, Kevlar canoes that I used in the BWCA last summer.
Lastly, you don't have to sit in a canoe "seat". You can plop your a*s on the bottom of the canoe if it gets bumpy....just stay centered.


----------



## DeathFromAbove (Oct 21, 2008)

Yea I was always in the seat Usually alone


----------



## Outdoorguy57 (11 mo ago)

Thank you, for the replies, thus far. 
As I suspected, a canoe is going to be a bad choice for me, due to how tipsy they are compared to a kayak. The carry weight of a kayak isn't a concern for me, as I'm usually close enough to the water to avoid carrying it for any distance.

Onward to my search for a kayak that I can stand in and fish, but is under $1K. My last SOT kayak was a Wilderness Systems Ride 115, but I had a silly moment and sold it for a motorcycle.  No texting and driving idiots hitting me in a kayak. 😁
The photo is the last fish I caught in the Ride 115. 😎


----------



## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Well, that's depends upon the canoe doesn't it? My buddy bought a new Sportspal a couple of years ago. It's more like a boat than a canoe. You can stand up in that thing no problem! He got one of the short ones (12'6" or 13') with a square stern for a trolling motor.


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

If you haven't seen one of these, they're worth checking out, IMHO. Or something comparable:


----------



## snag (Dec 27, 2005)

I also have a sports pal canoe made by Myers boats in Michigan, the 12 foot two person model, aircraft aluminum, wide bottom not even tippy. Have a side arm mount for my electric motor. It’s my second one sold the first one like a dumb. Had a sit inside yak and not for me, tippy , no room, hard to get in and out . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

I would never argue with the kayak guys about the merits of their chosen vessel, but they are not my personal favorite. The only time I ever find a canoe unstable if it is empty of cargo and In have to enter it from an awkward position, like from high above, from water above my thighs, or if I have an awkward, unbalanced, inexperienced passenger. My canoes are not solo, they are conventional tandem style and they are 17' and 19' and I handle them without issue on open waters or on river trips. I just be sure that the gear that I have is properly placed to counter my weight so that the axis is a bit center-rear and I NEVER stand up in my canoe. Canoes are a great way to spend a week on a river float, I travel heavy as I like to eat well and drink cold beer and I also require good cooking equipment and comfortable gear. Probably can't do all that in a kayak.


----------



## Buzzy (Jul 2, 2011)

Goldenhawk square back. It’s the only way to go. At the waterline it’s a canoe hull but I rip a 2 horse on mine. Screw yaks and canoes.


----------



## snag (Dec 27, 2005)

Buzzy said:


> Goldenhawk square back. It’s the only way to go. At the waterline it’s a canoe hull but I rip a 2 horse on mine. Screw yaks and canoes.


It better be nice for the tune of $1300..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buzzy (Jul 2, 2011)

snag said:


> It better be nice for the tune of $1300..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Game changer. I fish three grown men out of mine. My brother and I stand the whole float.

I learned I can buy the cheap version only to upgrade or just buy the upgrade and save money long term.

This is the shortcut to the “canoe” performance we all want.

I don’t regret the purchase one bit.


----------



## bassclef (Jul 25, 2013)

Solo canoe guy here. It's a Wenonah Fusion - 13' long and 35" wide.








I bought it in early 2020 and and have fished the hell out of it ever since. 

I wouldn't call it "tippy", but it definitely does not have primary or secondary stability which is comparable to a sit on top kayak. For example, I don't store things behind me which I would need to turn my body around to access. I feel like it might go over whenever I do that. Standing up is also probably not an option, though I've never tried. I'm 5'11" and weigh 260 if that matters.

The reason I chose this over popular options for fishing kayaks, which I admittedly would like to also have, was the weight. I need to transport on the roof of my Outback and I don't have the space for a trailer nor the interest in fooling around with load assist contraptions which would likely be necessary for a 90-120lb SOT kayak. This was one of the last ones made in good ol' Royalex and weighs 45lbs empty. They also make it in Kevlar which weighs 20lbs but that version costs about three grand. I found it new old stock at a dealer in upstate NY and made the round trip drive to get it in one day. 

In addition to the transporting advantage a 45lb boat offers, it also cuts the water like a knife. This is especially nice when I put in at a spot on the river, paddle upstream and fish back down to where I launched. I do this as often as I can.

As long as I keep the load balanced, my ass centered in the seat and my head inside of the gunwales, I don't worry about tipping. I fly fish rivers for smallmouth and pike and use conventional tackle in lakes for largemouth and I find it works pretty well for both. For rivers especially, I think it's the perfect tool for the job.


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

Wenonahs are very nice canoes. That's almost all that you see in the BWCA. And yes...the really light ones are spendy. (They're also somewhat fragile, compared to other canoes.)
But the same design features that make it easy to paddle, easy to turn, and cut through the water so nicely come at the expense of stability.
When drag gets reduced, stability typically does as well.
My 18 foot Michicraft is a tank and very stable. It's much bigger and heavier than a Wenonah. But it doesn't cut through the water like a nice Wenonah will.
Just have to figure out what you want to use the canoe for.


----------



## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

I like the look of that Wenonah Fusion solo That would be a nice one for rivers. My canoe is a 16' mohawk Nova royalex. It weighs about 52 lbs. but its a tandem. Never tried it solo. But I can honestly say it wouldn't do good solo. It does better with some weight in it. It doesn't like the wind. It tends to push it around when your light. 
I wanted to get a carbon fiber canoe but didn't want to spend $3K or more. I don't use it as much as my kayak.


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

Rocknut said:


> I like the look of that Wenonah Fusion solo That would be a nice one for rivers. My canoe is a 16' mohawk Nova royalex. It weighs about 52 lbs. but its a tandem. Never tried it solo. But I can honestly say it wouldn't do good solo. It does better with some weight in it. It doesn't like the wind. It tends to push it around when your light.
> I wanted to get a carbon fiber canoe but didn't want to spend $3K or more. I don't use it as much as my kayak.


Have you tried sitting in the middle of the canoe instead of the rear seat? Should ride much better than going solo and sitting in the back seat, me thinks.
Obviously, there probably isn't a built in seat in the middle..........


----------



## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

I have an LL Bean 13' Royal River in T-Formex, which is the replacement for Royalex. It is actually made by Wenonah, and is the Fusion without a rudder. Berkshire's assessment of the stability is pretty accurate. It's something that took a couple of trips for me to feel comfortable with, but I don't feel like I am going to fall out of it. I also do creeks like he does, and one thing I don't like is that it doesn't have a lot of rocker. So, while that favors it being fast and tracking straight, it can be difficult to turn and maneuver if you get caught in a current seam or have to sneak yourself around a laydown. If the current catches your rear end, you are likely to struggle to keep if from doing a 180. Funny, I did not see a rudder on his canoe, just a foot bar like on my version. It basically handles about the same as my Jackson Kilroy, but carries more and is 25 pounds lighter. 

My other canoe is a 14.5' Wenonah Fisherman in Royalex. It has a pretty flat hull, and is very stable. I turn it around and paddle from the front seat. I love it, but to keep the wind from swinging the fore around, I do fill a 20 pound cat litter bottle with water and put it up front for ballast along with my cooler. If I lost 50 pounds, it probably would be less of an issue.


----------



## bassclef (Jul 25, 2013)

streamstalker said:


> I have an LL Bean 13' Royal River in T-Formex, which is the replacement for Royalex. It is actually made by Wenonah, and is the Fusion without a rudder. Berkshire's assessment of the stability is pretty accurate. It's something that took a couple of trips for me to feel comfortable with, but I don't feel like I am going to fall out of it. I also do creeks like he does, and one thing I don't like is that it doesn't have a lot of rocker. So, while that favors it being fast and tracking straight, it can be difficult to turn and maneuver if you get caught in a current seam or have to sneak yourself around a laydown. If the current catches your rear end, you are likely to struggle to keep if from doing a 180. Funny, I did not see a rudder on his canoe, just a foot bar like on my version. It basically handles about the same as my Jackson Kilroy, but carries more and is 25 pounds lighter.
> 
> My other canoe is a 14.5' Wenonah Fisherman in Royalex. It has a pretty flat hull, and is very stable. I turn it around and paddle from the front seat. I love it, but to keep the wind from swinging the fore around, I do fill a 20 pound cat litter bottle with water and put it up front for ballast along with my cooler. If I lost 50 pounds, it probably would be less of an issue.


I actually bought that LL Bean version first, but more than a month went by and they couldn't tell me when it was going to ship. Understandable I suppose because it was right at the very beginning of the pandemic, after all. During that time though, I found a new old stock Fusion in Royalex at Oak Orchard Canoe and went and got it. It didn't come with a rudder, but I could've had it added on. I think rudders are only standard on the Kevlar version. The dealer actually made it into what he called an "angler" version by putting in some heavy-duty thwarts and adding some Yak Attack mounts to them (and I added a couple more). I also swapped out the foot bar for some individual foot pegs so I could have access to the bow area without reaching over the thwart. I swapped out the seat for a heavy-duty curved one which is a little more comfortable and helps keep me centered.

I've been pondering my next purchase of a two-person Wenonah. I have my eye on either the Fisherman or the Kingfisher, both of which appear to be discontinued in all hull materials other than their ultra light composites, unfortunately. If you ever want to sell that Royalex Fisherman, get in touch with me!

And I hear you on "reducing the load" my canoe has to carry by 50lbs or so...


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

I've been waiting on one of these since last Summer....and my local dealer didn't come through for me as promised....yet.
On a whim and after being a part of this thread, I did a search on Old Town dealers in Ohio and found this gem today and paid for it over the phone. I'm pretty stoked!!!



https://oldtowncanoe.johnsonoutdoors.com/canoes/recreation/discovery-sport-15?id=11111


----------



## codger (Aug 16, 2020)

berkshirepresident said:


> I've been waiting on one of these since last Summer....and my local dealer didn't come through for me as promised....yet.
> On a whim and after being a part of this thread, I did a search on Old Town dealers in Ohio and found this gem today and paid for it over the phone. I'm pretty stoked!!!
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, I thought my canoe (older OT Discovery 158) was a barge.








A little longer and narrower than the Sport 15, it only has a 1050 lb capacity compared to the 1650 of the Sport, and even after removing the rear seat and adding an oak seat (moved forward for solo fishing) its still about 15 lb lighter than the Sport's 114 lb. Enjoy your new canoe, they're practically indestructible and very stable.


----------



## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

berkshirepresident said:


> Have you tried sitting in the middle of the canoe instead of the rear seat? Should ride much better than going solo and sitting in the back seat, me thinks.
> Obviously, there probably isn't a built in seat in the middle..........


I know how to solo. No there is not a seat in the middle just the thwart in the way so you would have to kneel. But as I stated before my boat does best with weight in it, much more than you would have going solo. If I'm solo I use my kayak which is most of the time.


----------



## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

berkshirepresident said:


> I've been waiting on one of these since last Summer....and my local dealer didn't come through for me as promised....yet.
> On a whim and after being a part of this thread, I did a search on Old Town dealers in Ohio and found this gem today and paid for it over the phone. I'm pretty stoked!!!
> 
> 
> ...


She's a beaut, Clark!

They used to sell that as a Predator. My brother had one, and he sucked at paddling, so I was usually in the back. It paddles better than you think it might. Boy, it is a prick to car top! You can stand and cast with confidence. Hell, you could break dance in it if you feel like it. My brother sold it to a friend of mine, and he put oar locks on it. I would recommend getting an SUP paddle for the times you want to stand in the back and paddle her. Congratulations, I think you will love it.


----------



## bassclef (Jul 25, 2013)

berkshirepresident said:


> I've been waiting on one of these since last Summer....and my local dealer didn't come through for me as promised....yet.
> On a whim and after being a part of this thread, I did a search on Old Town dealers in Ohio and found this gem today and paid for it over the phone. I'm pretty stoked!!!
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats!

I ran into a guy putting one of those on a trailer at Nimisilla last summer as I was also taking out. We ended up talking canoes for a bit and he loves his. He said it's stable enough to pretty much walk bow to stern without much worry.


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

Well....I'm used to my Michicraft 18 foot aluminum canoe....which I believe weighs 88 pounds. So, this isn't THAT much heavier. On paper anyway. 

My goal/hope is to eventually get a canoe trailer for it....which are in short supply these days. I have a Minn Kota 55 stern mounted tiller trolling motor left over from my first boat and a Helix 5 from my current boat sitting around. I'd like to set these up somewhat permanently....and then add a bow anchor kind of like this guy:


----------



## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

berkshirepresident said:


> Well....I'm used to my Michicraft 18 foot aluminum canoe....which I believe weighs 88 pounds. So, this isn't THAT much heavier. On paper anyway.
> 
> My goal/hope is to eventually get a canoe trailer for it....which are in short supply these days. I have a Minn Kota 55 stern mounted tiller trolling motor left over from my first boat and a Helix 5 from my current boat sitting around. I'd like to set these up somewhat permanently....and then add a bow anchor kind of like this guy:


 114 lbs


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

streamstalker said:


> 114 lbs


But it does have a payload capacity of 1650 pounds.
Or 1650 less the 114....but you see where I'm going.
Basically, I needed a smaller boat that can go where my 1750 Fishhawk can't.....and I miss being on small boat lakes of NE Ohio.....especially at sunset.


----------



## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

I was over a friends house yesterday. He has 6 canoes 5 solo and only one tandem. His newer boat in the Swift Pack 13'-6" kevlar fusion weight is around 28lbs 
Nice looking boat
Pack 13.6 - Swift Canoe & Kayak - People Who Know, Paddle Swift


----------



## berkshirepresident (Jul 24, 2013)

That's a beautiful, nimble canoe!
A capacity of only 140-280 pounds struck me as a little light....but if that's all you need, it certainly works.
Looks like an easy turning, easy to track, easy to paddle canoe.


----------



## codger (Aug 16, 2020)

berkshirepresident said:


> That's a beautiful, nimble canoe!
> A capacity of only 140-280 pounds struck me as a little light....but if that's all you need, it certainly works.
> Looks like an easy turning, easy to track, easy to paddle canoe.


140 - 280 is the optimum. It also lists 400 as the industry capacity, whatever that is. It doesn't show dimensions so I can't accurately figure capacity, but looking at the photos I would guess closer to 600lbs.


----------



## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

400 lbs for a solo canoe should be plenty if you figured 100 lbs of gear plus your weight most of us would be less than 300lbs so all is good. 
I think the heaviest I've been on a 8 day trip for two people with gear and food we started at around 120 lbs of gear


----------



## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

Years ago, I had a Radisson(similar to a Sportspal) canoe. I let a friend talk me into selling it to him in a weak moment(only to store it under his 2nd floor deck out back and someone stoled it one night after owning it a couple months!) It weighed something like 25-30#s, had a sq. Stern, and had foam sponsons up both sides. I don’t think I could have ever capsized it “sitting“ inside it.(To qualify-It came with two foam, moveable seats w/backs which sat on the floor and had you 4-6” above the floor when sitting so you were sitting more “inside” the canoe, not on top on seats on gunnel bracing.)
Anyway, anyone with a “tipsy” canoe should see a few of maybe 100 utube videos(or check Pinterest) for some neat ideas on how to equip canoes with outrigger floats which make them Much more “stable”. As with fishing kayaks, the one primary obstacle is where to put the floats so as not to interfer with the paddling stroke. I’ll be putting floats on my Lifetime kayak in the next week or so to help this old man fish out of it considerably more safe than it was!


----------



## Eyecrosser (Apr 10, 2016)

I have a 10 foot sportspal and I hunt waterfowl out of it. I like it because I can lift it on top of my suv by myself, I’m 72. Very stable to shoot from. I use it on lakes,rivers,swamps and don’t worry about tipping. Always leaning over the side to reach for decoys.


----------

