# American Gun Dog Trials



## Brian Vinson (Apr 20, 2009)

Is there any interest from some of you to test your dogs in a REAL hunting situation? I would like to see if we could get together sometime in the future. From what I gather, these are easy to put on and the test is under REAL guns.
Please see link:
http://www.americangundogclub.com/


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

i run UFTA, who back's the club?
the rules are terribly subjective, what the hell determines "Disturbing ground	" as a major fault?


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## Brian Vinson (Apr 20, 2009)

The association is it's own entity. It is geared towards hunting accomplishment over style. It is rules that were the "original" rules before it became a handler's sport.
Retriever field trials originated in England in the late 1800's. Competitions arose as a way to identify superior dogs so that they could be bred to improve the working qualities of retrievers. 
Field trials in America have greatly diverged from the original purpose. We imported field trials from England in the early 1930's. When we first imported them, they were very similar to British Field Trials. They were small, with only a few dogs running. They emphasized steadiness and game finding initiative (hence, disturbing ground.) The tests in the very early trials were all marked retrieves. Blinds and hand signals came along later. 
Significant differences were written into American field trial rules which would cause them to change from their simple and effective beginnings. A major difference was the omission of any limit on the number of dogs running in a trial. The trials of today have become more of an elimination contest because of the time it takes to run 100 dogs.
I'm just looking to see if there is any interest in one of these trials because there are many, many dogs used for hunting that would excel in this format around the Ohio area and would promote a dog that most of us want.
For lack of a better word "meat" dogs that you can depend on in all hunting situations.
I'm not some purist breed dog person and not saying that one test is better than another at all. I was just seeing if there was any interest because they are easy to put on and looked to be something that I could train for without the help of a professional trainer.


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

I get it, but the rules are vague, incredibly subjective and somewhat impossible to measure. What grounds to you judge and measure "Slack and un-businesslike work"??



> Judging criteria
> 
> Credit Points
> Natural gamefinding ability	Control
> ...


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## Brian Vinson (Apr 20, 2009)

I understand too where you are coming from. And I'm just a novice and some of these questions I just can't give a knowledgeable answer to.
What I do know is I like trials that are more subjective with knowledgeable judges. If you take the subjectiveness out of it, you will end up breeding towards whatever dog the rules warrant and leaving some of the more needed hunting traits out of it. Take hard mouth for instance: alot of trainers use force fetch in their training regimen and they become great competition dogs. But, they still have the hard mouth gene in them that they pass on to the next generation. Wouldn't it be better to be breeding this trait out instead of surpressing it? Also, in the video, you see the dog what some would call "popping." This to me, is a tractability and cooporative trait that most try to breed out. It's all in your taste of what you want.
Aren't all trials a little subjective anyway? Some, way more than others? At the end of the day, you have 4 or 5 awesome dogs and you have to sift through them. To me, it all comes down to the judges tastes because all 4 or 5 are good dogs. That being said, some will shine on a given day too and can't be beat but I think the before mentioned applies most of the time and the draw sometimes falls right into place for a particular dog. Some will be better at one thing than another.
Another good thing is that the trial is small and doesn't take alot of resources to put together. You know what it takes to make a successful field trial and it's a huge endevour. You can use all pigeons or any combination of birds that you want at a very minimal price. So, you get 20 good dogs together, some birds, a tract of land, good pot of beans and put it on. Not all that easy but you get the idea.


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

very few trials are subjective, those being the one you mentioned, AKC and some of the rules within NAVHDA. NSTRA and UFTA are not subjective in terms of rules, every portion is a measurable/attainable qualification.

What "more needed hunting traits" are removed? a dog needs to find game, point game, hold point and retrieve to hand. Steady to gun can be debated both ways. What else is there?

I've put on a trial, it is not a huge endeavor. How do you plan on using pigeons??? they are not ground-birds! how can you call that a REAL hunting situation?

I have some fine dogs myself, with great trial success to boot. I'm also not trying to crap on your parade, but for god's sake please stop posting inaccurate/incorrect information.


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## Brian Vinson (Apr 20, 2009)

OH. I think you may need to know that this is a retriever trial. Not a pointing dog trial. Just because I said I wasn't the most knowledgeable doesn't give you grounds to say that I'm giving false information. As I said before, I'm just looking for interest in this format. That's all. 
I'm glad that you have good dogs and they win UFTA trials but you have your own website to bost about your dogs and it really doesn't pertain to anything in this thread. And I've never met a dog owner that didn't think his dog was nice unless he was trying to sell it. LOL!
I still stand by my opinion that there are subjective situations in all formats and I think you know that too because you field trial but I'm not going to argue about it.
I've put on field trials myself and securing grounds, cooking breakfast and lunch, finding hotels for some, getting trophies and ribbons, taking entries, finding judges, finding a clubhouse and finding game may be easy to you but not for me. That's cool.
Pigeons are just one source. As I said, it can be any combination. But pigeons are easy to get ahold of and are easy to carry around.


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## littleking (Jun 25, 2005)

I don't have a website to boast about my dogs, please enlighten me


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## longhaulpointer (Mar 12, 2009)

if you can use piegons to train a dog how come you can't use them in a field trial? Not familiar with UFTA, but i know the NSTRA uses released quail, which usually don't fly well, not even close to wild quail. I perfer piegons over released quail, as the piegons will actually fly when released . 

as for the peigons, LK you know better because i have read you talking about using them. why would you train with them, if there not natural? 

BV, maybe you should try the hunt ohio site and run your idea by some retriever people. this is more of a fishing site and this area gets very few views. if your against LK and his site(because he likes to throw his weight around over there) check out huntohio.net, it has some good forums. good luck with your trial or maybe you can find one that more suits your interest.

i'll leave with a little gas on the fire, the only real, prestigous, and historic (est. 1896) bird dog championship takes place at Ames Plantation. all the other field trials in America were invented for dogs who couldn't keep up for what the standard bird dog was breed to do. If your dogs can't hang in the big leagues, then set up a field trial that caters to what your dog does well. Then brag about how good your dog is in field trials where all the other dogs are also not good enough to play in the big leagues. Yep everybody here gets a trophy.


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