# lake turnover



## inchoh (Jul 12, 2012)

Does the wind and cold nights we are having enough to trigger the turnover?


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## Bobnmenny (Jul 28, 2012)

inchoh said:


> Does the wind and cold nights we are having enough to trigger the turnover?


You peaked my curiosity. What is “lake turnover”? I’m a novice to the terminology.


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## Nate167 (May 1, 2009)

Bobnmenny said:


> You peaked my curiosity. What is “lake turnover”? I’m a novice to the terminology.


It’s when the cold water at the bottom of the lake and the warm water at the surface trade places essentially. Happens in spring and fall. So this time of year the warm surface water with drop to the bottom and the cold deep water will come up the surface.


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## rockafed (Jul 16, 2012)

Actually, turnover is when the water is the same temp from top to bottom. For example, no thermocline...


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## jdl447 (May 16, 2018)

Bobnmenny said:


> You peaked my curiosity. What is “lake turnover”? I’m a novice to the terminology.


Just like the air, cold water sinks and warm water rises.

During the summer the surface of the water is the warmest and the deeper you go the colder the water gets. As the seasons change and the air temperatures get colder, the surface water will begin to cool. It will eventually cool to a point that it is colder than the water below it and it’s at that time that the lake turns over.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Water is most dense at ~39F. That’s why the water never gets colder than 39 at the bottom during winter.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

The water isn’t that cold at the bottom during the summer. Once the water temp cools enough during fall the upper water column gets more dense than the water at the bottom. So it starts sinking pushing the less dense water at the depths up to the surface. This is why ice floats. Water is the only liquid/solvent that has this property.

http://www.vaxasoftware.com/doc_eduen/qui/denh2o.pdf
http://www.vaxasoftware.com/doc_eduen/qui/denh2o.pdf
Winds and waves can also effect the timing of the turnover. it can happen in the spring too with the different warming rates of the various water depths.


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## Bobnmenny (Jul 28, 2012)

Thank you all for posting the explanations. I actually learned something today!


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

new to erie fishing. theres alot of great info use the great lakes buoys system. you can actually use the live cams on them and see the water temp as it is. 45169 is the bouy above the crib. 45176 is the crib and so on.. i was watching the temps when the flip happened. when you go to a bouy tap on wind or water temp or wave height or whatever that one offers, and it will show you a map or graph. great resource if you text a bouy it will send you back info


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## Southernsaug (May 23, 2019)

jdl447 said:


> Just like the air, cold water sinks and warm water rises.
> 
> During the summer the surface of the water is the warmest and the deeper you go the colder the water gets. As the seasons change and the air temperatures get colder, the surface water will begin to cool. It will eventually cool to a point that it is colder than the water below it and it’s at that time that the lake turns over.


This is correct: 

Many environmental issues and events can influence this, including wind and heavy rain. Lake depths also matter as deeper water will stay cooler. For most of our inland lakes I would say turnover occurs most often when water is in the 60s or even high 50s.


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## Bobnmenny (Jul 28, 2012)

bustedrod said:


> new to erie fishing. theres alot of great info use the great lakes buoys system. you can actually use the live cams on them and see the water temp as it is. 45169 is the bouy above the crib. 45176 is the crib and so on.. i was watching the temps when the flip happened. when you go to a bouy tap on wind or water temp or wave height or whatever that one offers, and it will show you a map or graph. great resource if you text a bouy it will send you back info


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## Bobnmenny (Jul 28, 2012)

Thank you Busted!


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## puge (May 14, 2009)

I'd say the entire water column has equalized as it is pretty much 66 degrees all the way down to 60 feet.

https://glbuoys.glos.us/45176
https://glbuoys.glos.us/45169


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## Uglystix (Mar 3, 2006)

It looks like it turned over a few days ago. Planning a trip up Saturday. Do the fish turn off for a while after turn over? (New to Erie)


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

no they should put thee feed bag on


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## KPI (Jun 4, 2011)

Shorter daylight also trigger the feeding they know they need fat for the winter months best time of the year


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## penalty box (Nov 2, 2011)

All I know is when the lake first turns over they usually don't bite


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## Monarch Viper (Sep 26, 2014)

It was 68 degrees, 60’ down last weekend.


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## [email protected] (Sep 24, 2008)

So what's the consensus. Has the lake flipped?


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## bustedrod (May 13, 2015)

hares a screen shot of the crib this morning


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## tylerhunt (Jul 5, 2013)

this is just my opinion from my personal experience. Because of Lake Erie being much more shallower than the other great lakes, I don't think the difference between top and bottom water temp is any big deal. I have two different devices to check temps with and the most i found all summer long was maybe 1 1/2 degrees difference.


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## kdn (Apr 27, 2015)

Tyler hunt. If you would have been in 70 fow or in that area you would see a huge difference in water temps at the thermocline. At 60’ depths temp was like 68 and at at 65’ depth it was 57 or less. That thermocline is where they hang out because it is comfortable for them. You wouldn’t hang outside your house on an100 degree day if it was air conditioned inside. Same with fish they want to be comfortable and not stressed. There is a big difference in temp at the thermocline


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## baby blue (Sep 8, 2005)

usually when the lake truly flips it goes off color. Throughout the summer we will get the same temp top to bottom if it gets really rough and upwells the cold water. Usually starts to recover and set up thermocline in a week. 
I don't think it's flipped yet but I haven't been out in a week either. 
when it does the fish go off the bite for a bit. too quick and drastic change in their environment.


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## rickerd (Jul 16, 2008)

Baby blue is right, the water will turn to gray when it turns over. I've seen it happen in WB and Central. I've not had any success once it starts to turn. Mud and dirt also rise with the rising warmer water. The WB usually has a distinct turn over each year. The CB and EB are deep enough it doesn't happen every year, or it doesn't cause the gray color from sediment every year. Try to look at the Satellite views before you go. My experience has been the WB turns over within the next couple weeks on average, the CB might turn over after the WB. 
Rickerd


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## BFG (Mar 29, 2006)

penalty box said:


> All I know is when the lake first turns over they usually don't bite


Sounds just like my wife.


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## kdn (Apr 27, 2015)

Look at the bouy temps. Much cooler and even temps throughout the water column than 10 days ago.


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## Marbletucky (Jun 17, 2008)

http://www.clevelandwater.com/blog/...lcWSBd1O1e3oxeq0cz-okRYGX_EHdbWeIcfdGvMAGnEPs


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## kdn (Apr 27, 2015)

yup I look at the bouy data for conditions all the time.


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

Deep bouy out of cle is showing 64 from 3' to the bottom


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

https://glbuoys.glos.us/45169


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## Lake Erie (Jun 20, 2008)

Lake "turnover" occurs when the entire water column is at or near the same temperature. The deep areas in the Central Basin have a bottom temperature in the 50's by late summer, even lower in the Eastern Basin. As the air temperatures cool in the fall the water temperatures follow, also the cooler water entering the Lake from tributaries. Once the surface and mid-depth temperatures get near the same as the bottom temperature, the water is all at or near the same density. Once this happens, when the waves cause currents to flow, the water will mix freely and water will circulate all around the Lake, mixing. This is the "flip," meaning water that has been "trapped" at the bottom can now move freely. When you have a thermocline in the summer, the cooler denser water at the bottom of the water column doesn't mix with the lighter warmer water above it. The wind caused currents circulate the warmer water above it while the colder bottom water stays on the bottom, circulating / moving some but not mixing much with the warmer water above.


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## chaunc (Apr 11, 2004)

I don’t believe Erie has a thermocline because I never see it on the electronics. I see pics of fish from the top to the bottom even in 75 foot. According to knowledge, fish can’t live below the thermocline so why are there fish hugging the bottom in depths that deep? Most inland lakes without steady current will stratify and have a thermocline but lakes with strong currents will keep the water mixed continuously. Erie falls into that strong current factor. Does anyone have photos of Erie’s thermocline? Post them here if you do. I’m sure we’d all like to see them. Seen a ton of pics of walleye schools near bottom on Erie.


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

chaunc said:


> I don’t believe Erie has a thermocline because I never see it on the electronics. I see pics of fish from the top to the bottom even in 75 foot. According to knowledge, fish can’t live below the thermocline so why are there fish hugging the bottom in depths that deep? Most inland lakes without steady current will stratify and have a thermocline but lakes with strong currents will keep the water mixed continuously. Erie falls into that strong current factor. Does anyone have photos of Erie’s thermocline? Post them here if you do. I’m sure we’d all like to see them. Seen a ton of pics of walleye schools near bottom on Erie.


Why can't fish live below the thermocline? It's just the break in the water temperature. You need a fish hawk to really determine where it's or their at in the lake.

In the central basin, in summer, it's common to have two different temperature breaks. One around 35' and another around 50' setup. 

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

I watch bouy temps all the time. Throughout summer I'll see a lot of them register a 10° difference from 40- 50 foot just check out the link I put up it has all the weather bouys on all the lakes if you click on the bouy it shows all the data and they have temp sensors every 9' or something. Some have cameras to its an awesome real time info getter


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

https://glbuoys.glos.us/ here's the main page check it out pretty sweet


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## EPB (Nov 8, 2005)

set-the-drag said:


> I watch bouy temps all the time. Throughout summer I'll see a lot of them register a 10° difference from 40- 50 foot just check out the link I put up it has all the weather bouys on all the lakes if you click on the bouy it shows all the data and they have temp sensors every 9' or something. Some have cameras to its an awesome real time info getter


So do you start fishing below, at or above the thermocline, fishing, the more I learn the more I realize I don’t know!


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## baby blue (Sep 8, 2005)

chaunc said:


> I don’t believe Erie has a thermocline because I never see it on the electronics. I see pics of fish from the top to the bottom even in 75 foot. According to knowledge, fish can’t live below the thermocline so why are there fish hugging the bottom in depths that deep? Most inland lakes without steady current will stratify and have a thermocline but lakes with strong currents will keep the water mixed continuously. Erie falls into that strong current factor. Does anyone have photos of Erie’s thermocline? Post them here if you do. I’m sure we’d all like to see them. Seen a ton of pics of walleye schools near bottom on Erie.


That is as false as saying the earth is flat.


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## chaunc (Apr 11, 2004)

baby blue said:


> That is as false as saying the earth is flat.


Show us a picture of the thermocline on Erie then. There’s hundreds of screen shots showing fish from top to bottom. If you can’t prove there is one, watch out. You might fall off the edge of the planet.


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## kdn (Apr 27, 2015)

My current sonar does not show a thermocline. But my Lowrance did a fine job of showing a thermal clone in Lake Erie and lots of lakes I fished in northern Ontario. Deep lakes for speckle trout and lake trout. My Humminbird probably can show anthermocline but I haven’t tried to adjust the power output for that. I am new to HB sonars


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## Southernsaug (May 23, 2019)

The premise there is zero oxygen below the thermocline is false. Although, it will be very low there can and usually will be some dissolved oxygen. Fish in the cold water can slow there metabolism and go below it at times. They will be inactive and taking a siesta so to speak. I have run oxygen and temp profiles in mid summer with corded oxygen probes and I would usually find oxygen levels around 1-2ppm on the bottom, but you will also find times that zone is anoxic. Fish can spend inactive times in that. You will not see a lot of fish down there nor many small fish.


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## baby blue (Sep 8, 2005)

[QUOT="chaunc, post: 3019067, member: 260"]Show us a picture of the thermocline on Erie then. There’s hundreds of screen shots showing fish from top to bottom. If you can’t prove there is one, watch out. You might fall off the edge of the planet.[/QUOTE]


Ok omg. I can’t believe I have to argue this.
If you crank up the sensitivity on your graph it will show up. here’s a few pics of temps that show temp differences on different dates aka thermocline
I‘ve scuba dived a few Erie Wrecks and there are often more than one thermocline and it’s very obvious when you drop into it.


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## kdn (Apr 27, 2015)

I totally agree. These (non-believers) probably don’t swim or have never dove below the surface. I also scuba dnd and free dive. You can immediately sense the different temps when you enter the thermocline.


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## Jim Stedke (Dec 5, 2005)

If you notice the water being an odd sort of translucent milky but copperish color and small globs of dark debrie on the surface, in the western basin, you'll know that the lake has flipped .


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## baby blue (Sep 8, 2005)

9th grade science is real 
BB


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## Lake Erie (Jun 20, 2008)

OK. Here we go...

I have scuba dived Lake Erie. I've dove shipwrecks in the Central Basin, 70 foot depth. Summer. There are thermoclines. It can be and usually is pretty drastic. On the way down 70 degrees or close and in 5 foot of water column it drops to mid 50's as you approach the bottom. So that settles that. You can't rely on your electronics. Take a thermometer with you. Drop it down. You'll see.
The oxygen level below the thermocline can drop significantly if there is a lot of bacteria and other organism activity on the bottom, which uses up the O2. In Lake Erie in years past and even today, algae blooms cause a lot of dead algae to fall to the bottom, providing a food source for the bacteria and other organisms. The more food, the lower the O2. So you have the combination of much colder water and lower oxygen. This happens because the cold water near and at the bottom doesn't mix with the warmer oxygenated water above.

It varies all over the Lake, by time of year, location, and winds / weather. But these basic principles hold for the Lake. You have to learn the details for the area you fish.


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## gw2kpro (Jul 5, 2012)

chaunc said:


> I don’t believe Erie has a thermocline because I never see it on the electronics. I see pics of fish from the top to the bottom even in 75 foot. According to knowledge, fish can’t live below the thermocline so why are there fish hugging the bottom in depths that deep? Most inland lakes without steady current will stratify and have a thermocline but lakes with strong currents will keep the water mixed continuously. Erie falls into that strong current factor. Does anyone have photos of Erie’s thermocline? Post them here if you do. I’m sure we’d all like to see them. Seen a ton of pics of walleye schools near bottom on Erie.


Lake Erie does have a thermocline. I fish it all summer out of North East. Once it sets up strong, it can really concentrate the fish.

It's typically 65-85 feet deep depending on water temps, time of year, and how much the lake has been churning. I've had best luck when it sets up at about 70 feet over 100-105 feet. Game on.

I fished it successfully 2 weeks ago. At 80-85 feet down, the lake went from around 65-67 degrees to 45-50 degrees in the matter of a 5 foot drop. Nope. Don't have a pic. Have a fish hawk temp probe on my rigger that shows down speed and down temp in real time.

And fish not only "can" live under the thermocline, they often relate to and live below it, depending on the species. Certainly lake trout hang out under the thermocline, they spend all summer retreated there in the cold water. Salmon in Lake Ontario routinely hang under the thermocline, that's part of the reason why the guys up there run temp probes on their riggers -- the charters all run them, sometimes even running a pair of them -- in order to find out exactly where it's at and run lines in cold water, eliminating unproductive warm water at that time of year. If you're up there in July, you better know where that break is and have lines in cold water.

Steelhead can be found there too although they are more apt to hang out above it or come up out of the cold water to hammer a spoon way above it. Have watched them on my graph come up out of the thermocline (75 down) to hammer a free slider spoon on my rigger rod (spoon prob. running 35-40 down).

And I pick walleyes out of that thermocline all the time if bait fish are hanging there.


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## gw2kpro (Jul 5, 2012)

EPB said:


> So do you start fishing below, at or above the thermocline, fishing, the more I learn the more I realize I don’t know!


It depends on the species. Lake trout strongly relate to cold water much of the year. They live most of their lives below the thermocline in Erie in cold water. So for them, want to be below it near the bottom.

A lot of times the bait fish are relating to the temperature break. If you find it, running lines right in it (few feet above - few feet below) can be very effective. Have caught some hog walleye out of it in North East -- not any pigs this year, but in 2018 caught some real slobs right on the temperature break. I think smelts were hanging there drawing them in. But there were big girls there much of the summer.

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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

chaunc said:


> Show us a picture of the thermocline on Erie then. There’s hundreds of screen shots showing fish from top to bottom. If you can’t prove there is one, watch out. You might fall off the edge of the planet.


If you run 200 you will mark it clear as day, surprised you are questioning this you have experience out there.


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## chaunc (Apr 11, 2004)

K gonefishin said:


> If you run 200 you will mark it clear as day, surprised you are questioning this you have experience out there.


All these scientific explanations are great but all I’m asking is to see a picture of it on a screenshot. Talk all you want about how the temps change. I know they do. Get those panties out of a bunch and just post a picture of it on Erie. That’s all I’ve asked to see. Not bouy reports or scuba tales. Just a simple picture is all I’ve asked for. Doesn’t take a ninth grader to understand that or does it? Post a dadgum picture or stfu, teacher.


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

EPB said:


> So do you start fishing below, at or above the thermocline, fishing, the more I learn the more I realize I don’t know!


I put my lines in there faces wherever I mark them.... Hasn't failed yet


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## set-the-drag (Jan 13, 2013)

I've never bothered dialing in to see a thermocline... Honestly couldn't give a fat frogs ass! We catch fish that is all I care about! I look for the fish breaking up from the group and try to hit them in the head.. Lucky for us we hit there mouth


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## Southernsaug (May 23, 2019)

Here's a couple youtube videos on it that shows it on sonar. A simple search will find the information, no need to gripe at each other

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...8583899F1EC16569562E8583899F1EC1656&FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...7E7C83B6F2A973C4878D7E7C83B6F2A973C&FORM=VIRE


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## puge (May 14, 2009)

https://www.ohiogamefishing.com/threads/lorain-7-18-mixed-bag.371375/page-2#post-2966003

I am sure someone has a better picture than this but found it in a simple ogf search, dgfidler lorain report . Also tons of articles by govt agencies that talk about it available in a google search. Can't believe this is even being debated.


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

Yeah... any decent fish finder will show the thermocline by turning up the sensitivity. I thought everyone knew that... hmmm, guess not.


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## dontknowmuch (Sep 26, 2014)

chaunc said:


> All these scientific explanations are great but all I’m asking is to see a picture of it on a screenshot. Talk all you want about how the temps change. I know they do. Get those panties out of a bunch and just post a picture of it on Erie. That’s all I’ve asked to see. Not bouy reports or scuba tales. Just a simple picture is all I’ve asked for. Doesn’t take a ninth grader to understand that or does it? Post a dadgum picture or stfu, teacher.


I really don't think any one ever thought it was something worth wasting their time taking a pic of.Its very common in July and August.I have never had an expensive graph and it shows up clear as day.


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

chaunc said:


> All these scientific explanations are great but all I’m asking is to see a picture of it on a screenshot. Talk all you want about how the temps change. I know they do. Get those panties out of a bunch and just post a picture of it on Erie. That’s all I’ve asked to see. Not bouy reports or scuba tales. Just a simple picture is all I’ve asked for. Doesn’t take a ninth grader to understand that or does it? Post a dadgum picture or stfu, teacher.



Easy chief, why the F are you arguing absolute proven scientific fact, also buy a decent sonar and learn how to use it. 

earth isn’t flat either


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

There's a screenshot









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## chaunc (Apr 11, 2004)

One guy and a boat said:


> There's a screenshot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Now back to fishing.


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