# Copperheads (pics from this weekend)



## bigcatjoe (Sep 6, 2006)

I know there was a big discussion about snake ID's a few days back. Found two copperheads this weekend, thought I'd share some pics, might end some confusion.
We were in south-eastern Ohio in an extremely remote area. Had hiked ten miles and flipped countless stones and boulders to find these guys (yes we were looking for them). Point and case, most times venomous snakes are very uncommon, and hard to find even where they are common. 
They were very unagressive, even when agitated. The smaller one struck a few times, then managed to settle down.
Heres a few pics:


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## Shorefishin (Mar 27, 2009)

Your Crazy Fool!

Great pix


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## mjchiodi (Mar 14, 2008)

very cool, I found one at Cumberland a number of years back and was not aggressive at all. I used to look for snakes all the time back then and that was the only one I ever found nice job. Just curious did you find anything else interesting?


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

boy he sure looks pissed in that last photo


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## Marshall (Apr 11, 2004)

Nice find they sure are cool looking. Any other interesting creatures on your quest?


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## JIG (Nov 2, 2004)

Thats pretty cool guys!


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

Joe, you the man!

That is awesome, why didn't I get the invite?


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Wow! I hate snakes, but man those are some great pics!

We have a cabin in Hocking County. Folks have claimed to see them in that area before, but I don't think I've ever seen any.... and don't want to either!


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

H2O Mellon said:


> Wow! I hate snakes, but man those are some great pics!
> 
> We have a cabin in Hocking County. Folks have claimed to see them in that area before, but I don't think I've ever seen any.... and don't want to either!


I've heard the same thing....about that county and over in Tar Hollow state park...and I have a cabin and some land in Hocking county too....wheres yours?? Mines off of Blue creek road


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## SPEAKSUP (Feb 19, 2009)

Good find. That Northern has a lot of deep red's to him. 

I don't know why so many people are afraid of snakes on here. I breed them I love them they also make me money. 










I breed many Pythons and a Few Boas. I take care of other ones when my friends go out of town. Including Cobras Rattlers etc. 

Snakes just want to live their lives. 

We have quite a few Venomous species in Ohio mostly you will stumble across Coppers here. 

They are in Hocking County I have seen them a lot down there. 

Friends have snapped a few pics of Cottonmouths and Rattlers here in Ohio also. 

I really do hope the Rattler populations rise up again here in Ohio.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Why do so many people believe there are cottonmouth's in Ohio? The closest they are to Ohio is southern Illinois.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

there is a decent population of timber rattlers around marseilles (sp) or killdeer wildlife area those are some cool snakes but not sure i would want to touch them i can do the non poision ones but not those he looks like he is ready to kick some a$$ in the last pic.

my only question is what happens if you get bit after hiking ten mile sinto the remote wilderness?


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## bigcatjoe (Sep 6, 2006)

Haha hey bassnpro I didn't know you liked that stuff. Next time I'll give you the heads up. You been fishin?

As for other creatures, we found two northern ringnecks, a box turtle, an eastern garter snake, saw a racer , a few fence lizards, a slimy salamander and a huge millipede. Chased the racer but he lost us. Hard to catch when you find them charged up in the middle of the day. I know black and blue racers hybridize in that area, and this one looked pretty dark but had a bluish underbelly. Could have been a cross. Here's a few more pics.


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## SPEAKSUP (Feb 19, 2009)

Harbor Hunter said:


> Why do so many people believe there are cottonmouth's in Ohio? The closest they are to Ohio is southern Illinois.


There was one killed at Camp Otyakwa (sp) the Big Brothers and Big Sisters summer camp down south a couple of years ago. 

I also ran into one down there when I was there. Cottonmouths have been spotted and killed here in Ohio a few times. 

Just like no one said Bears were not hear anymore. If Elk population continues to grow in PA WV etc. They also could move here. 

MMM I won't have to go to Colorado to hunt Elk anymore.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

i too think the elk in n. kentucky will make there way here they are starting to become a problem for farmers already and already have upped the number of tags issued


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## crittergitter (Jun 9, 2005)

Whoa, hold on there fellas. Elk need a particular habitat to survive and I don't think Ohio has that to offer. I could be wrong, but I have my doubts they'll ever be here. When they were reintroduced several years ago down in KY my buddy said they would be on his farm in a few years. His farm is just west of Grayson and there hasn't been an elk within 50 miles of that farm. Now, maybe in another 10 years there could be a herd near his farm, but I don't think we'll ever see them in Ohio. 

As for cottonmouths in Ohio.....that gets old. Produce a photo or I will remain a doubter. I heard this........I saw such and such. Blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Oh by the way, cool pics of the copperheads.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Like Crittergitter said until there are pictures of the cottonmouth in Ohio it will remain only a case of misidentification as far as I am concerned. I have to believe that when/if they show up in Ohio then the biologists and other wildlife officials who study them will be made aware of it by someone. And when/if they do find a case there would be no reason for them to deny their presence.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

elk used to be a native species to ohio granted things have changed since then but i don't think it is unreasonable


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## fishing_marshall (Jun 12, 2004)

Nice pictures! Next to fish and dogs snakes are one of my favorite animals. As for the cottonmouth in Ohio, many people thing they saw one when really it was a northern water snake which are a very aggressive snake.


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## Fisherman 3234 (Sep 8, 2008)

There were many animals that used to live in Ohio until they were either killed off or run off due to lack of habitat. Some of these species include: Eastern wood bison, wolverine, wolf, linx, fisher, eastern elk, alligator gar, blue pike, pine martin, snoeshoe hare, and porcupine. Now some species are coming back too Ohio like black bear and the bobcat. There have been reports of ODNR seeing black bear actually swimming across the Ohio river. Hopefully these species will make a good recovery. There are three types of venomous snakes in Ohio. They are the Eastern Massauga, Timber Rattlesnake, and Northern Copperhead.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

I worked for the ODNR for years,I used to do a lot of different jobs at several wildlife areas in Ohio,and worked hand in hand with many wildlife and fisheries biologists.Although it's possible that there could be Timber Rattlers around the Killdeer W.A. near Marseilles,it's most likely that they are Pygmy Rattlers aka Massasaugas.I've personally seen decent numbers of them there,as well as at Willard Marsh and Big Island W.A.'s.There's fair numbers of them all along the Lake Erie marshes in NW Ohio.The closest to me that I've seen Timber Rattlers is in Mohican State Forest,which also harbors a good number of Copperheads.The unglaciated portions of SE Ohio is the area where you would be most likely to see either/both of them.I don't think you would have too much of a problem walking 10 miles out of a remote area after being bitten by a Copperhead.A few years back,a photo of a guy was on the front page of our local newspaper(Mansfield News Journal)of a hapless individual that was foraging around an old shack near Charles Mill Lake.He picked up an old burlap sack and to his surprise,it contained a nest of Copperheads! He was bitten on both arms,his neck and a couple times in the face.The pic showed his arms all bandaged up,but his neck and face were pretty discolored and swollen.He was bit a total of a dozen or more times.Point is,he wasn't even admitted to the hospital,just treated at the ER and realeased.I'm sure some of the readers from the Mansfield area remember seeing this in the paper.I think it happened pretty much right on the corner of Laver Rd./Rt.430.


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## bigcatjoe (Sep 6, 2006)

Good points. The eastern massasuga and the pigmy rattlesnake are different species though. The massasauga is classified as Sistrurus Miliarius, while the pigmy is under Sistrurus Calenatus. Though related, there bear some differences and survive in very different habitats. I agree, also, that if there were cottenmouth sightings in ohio, don't you think a biologist or ranger or anyone would have a pic of at least one of the many snakes killed thus far? Many people know a little about snakes and mis-identify them easily. Though they are similar at a glance, a northern watersnake and a cottenmouth would be very easily differentiable.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

That's why I said aka massasauga,many people confuse the pygmy and the massasauga.Massasaugas are relatively short like the Pygmy,but they are a heavy bodied snake,whereas the Pygmy are a also short,but they tend to be pretty lean.I've never heard of any Pygmy Rattlers in Ohio,they're very common in the SE part of the US.From time to time a rattler gets spotted on one of the Lake Erie islands,if there truly is any out there,I would think they would more likely be Timbers instead of Massasaugas considering the habitat.Personally,I believe what most people are seeing out there are the way more common Fox snakes.Fox snakes will wiggle their tails in dry leaves to give the impression that they're a venomous snake to fend off any threats.I do agree with some of the other posts on here concerning northern watersnakes.There's actually 2 species of these up around Lake Erie,the northern and the "endangered" Lake Erie watersnake,which if you spend any time at all around the islands,you'll wonder why it's endangered-they're everywhere.Both of these critters are highly aggressive,and will readily bite.


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## turkeymikey (Jul 3, 2008)

bigcatjoe said:


> Good points. The eastern massasuga and the pigmy rattlesnake are different species though. The massasauga is classified as Sistrurus Miliarius, while the pigmy is under Sistrurus Calenatus. Though related, there bear some differences and survive in very different habitats. I agree, also, that if there were cottenmouth sightings in ohio, don't you think a biologist or ranger or anyone would have a pic of at least one of the many snakes killed thus far? Many people know a little about snakes and mis-identify them easily. Though they are similar at a glance, a northern watersnake and a cottenmouth would be very easily differentiable.



We seldom misidentify them... We call them DEAD!!!


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

turkeymikey said:


> We seldom misidentify them... We call them DEAD!!!


Good post:T


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## bigcatjoe (Sep 6, 2006)

Well its quite obvious that a snake posing a direct threat to a human (unless venomous and very aggitated) in ohio, or anywhere for that matter, is a foolish claim. Unless one has a habit of crawling around on their belly in rock piles with their eyes closed groping into dark cavities, theres no need to worry. Killing a snake intentionally is an act of blind fear. 
Thanks to those interested.
-Joe


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## bigcatjoe (Sep 6, 2006)

Oh ok I understand now. They are pretty similar in appearance (pygmies and massys). Would love to find either. A fox snake would be a cool find too, but I'm never on the islands. 
Bassnpro, you hear about St. Claire this year?


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## Bassnpro1 (Apr 6, 2004)

bigcatjoe said:


> Bassnpro, you hear about St. Claire this year?



I heard a little about it, but I'm graduating in about a week.

Trust me, I'm not happy about it.


Joe, any interest in a trip to find a timber rattler? I have always wanted to see one and would love to look with someone who knows more about snakes than I do, even though I'm had numerous for pets over the years that I have found.


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## mkombe (May 23, 2007)

As much as snakes freak me out, those are some awesome pics!

Thanks for sharing!


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## SPEAKSUP (Feb 19, 2009)

fishintechnician said:


> elk used to be a native species to ohio granted things have changed since then but i don't think it is unreasonable


Yes and I truly see them coming back. Not to many predators in Ohio for them to worry about. 

I sent a email to my friend for the pic. 

I really would like to see more populations of Elk and Bear along with the others that urbanization and other reasons where ran off. 

Now I still need to find Grassman.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

yeah i can think of only one animal that might be able to eat an elk but only sick or a baby and that would be a coyote bear too but not alot of those around either i would like to see them here but it would be an extremely slow process i htink that would happen gradually over time


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Back when I worked with the DNR,there was an elk that got killed on the highway in Washington County in SE Ohio.Upon investigation by wildlife biologists,it was determined that the animal had escaped from a private hunting preserve in the area.Wonder how things would've turned out had it not got struck by a vehicle? Prolly wouldn't have had much in the way of survival skills due to being captive for all it's life,but who knows?


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## buckeye024 (Apr 14, 2006)

I can guarantee you that if Elk make it into Ohio it will have to be from DNR re-introduction. They certainly won't make it there from Kentucky. I live in Kentucky. The Fish and Wildlife Dept. here has specified a 16 county Elk Zone in Southeastern KY, in the rugged areas of Appalachian Mountains. This is the area where the re-introductions were done and there are very few farms, mostly just coal mines. The population exploded, as they expected, perhaps a little faster than they expected, but it is what they wanted. 

Anyway, KY Fish and Wildlife issued 1,000 permits for elk this year to hunt within the zone. However, anyone can buy a $30 "Out-of-Zone" elk permit over the counter, just like a deer permit. This permit allows ANYONE to kill an elk outside of the 16 county Elk Zone during the deer seasons. The state wants to contain the elk within that zone, so they kill off anything outside of there. Which makes it almost impossible for elk to roam very far from their area, because soon as they do they have 1000 hillbillies with rifles chasing after them during deer season. What better trophy while deer hunting than an elk...

Oh by the way, the "out-of zone" elk permit is new for this year. In the past all you needed was a deer permit to kill an elk outside of the zone. How about that for deer hunting???


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

you can't possible expect to contain an " exploding" population just by letting them be killed for a caouple of weeks a year what happens the rest of the year? you think they will stay in that zone until the given weeks of deer season. and as you said the population exploded faster than they thought so why would they not continue to expand in numbers and in area inhabited also elk can swim just like deer and the ohio river will not stop them


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## buckeye024 (Apr 14, 2006)

Elk don't just bust out of an area and run for hundres of miles. They are territorial by nature and will be found within only a couple miles of the area in which they were born. Sure as time goes by the herd boundary will slowly expand as the herd grows. That's one reason for the gowing number of elk permits. Herd maintenance to contain that boundary. Elk are not like bears.

Perhaps "exploding" is the wrong word. The elk herd here is doing well, but it is also heavily studied and monitored. The KY Fish & Wildlife Dept. is on record saying that the 16 county zone is the only area where they want elk, they will not let the herd flourish outside of that zone. That's one of the reasons why, in the past, any deer hunter could shoot an elk, without a permit, outside of the zone.

The state realized that people flocked to the border counties hoping to kill an elk with just a deer permit, so this year they added an extra out-of-zone permit fee, to make money. If hundreds of thousands of people apply for one of a thousand $350 elk permits. How many people jump at the chance to kill an elk for $35? Trust me any elk that ventures outside the zone right now, doesn't go far. those that are outside are kept hush-hush by the landowners so they can kill them during the deer seasons, which includes bow season.


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## buckeye024 (Apr 14, 2006)

Also, you should read this article: Despite Kentucky success, don't look for elk in Ohio soon.

Even the Ohio DNR Chief says not likely to happen in Ohio and the state couldn't support much of a population anyway.


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## fishintechnician (Jul 20, 2007)

i understand what you are saying but i did say that over time it could happen and i am sure not everyone that gets outside of said area will be killed


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## ohiotuber (Apr 15, 2004)

Fisherman 3234 said:


> There were many animals that used to live in Ohio until they were either killed off or run off due to lack of habitat. Some of these species include: Eastern wood bison, wolverine, wolf, linx, fisher, eastern elk, alligator gar, blue pike, pine martin, snoeshoe hare, and porcupine. Now some species are coming back too Ohio like black bear and the bobcat. There have been reports of ODNR seeing black bear actually swimming across the Ohio river. Hopefully these species will make a good recovery. There are three types of venomous snakes in Ohio. They are the Eastern Massauga, Timber Rattlesnake, and Northern Copperhead.


I have a friend who is very much afraid of snakes. We were at a pond 2 years ago & saw the biggest watersnake I have ever seen by a small bridge. Please note, I said "watersnake". My friend thought that it was a cottonmouth due to it's size (thick bodied) & dark color, but I was able to convince him it was harmless. There are no cottonmouths here. Ohio's 3 venomous species are correctly listed above. Years ago, the old "Ohio Fisherman" magazine ran an article entitled "Ohio's Toxic Trio" & it was an excellent article about the 3...the timber rattler, eastern massasauga rattler, & copperhead.
Mike


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

It's ironic that so many people in Ohio(including myself)are terrified of snakes,especially venomous ones,and most of us will never see one in our lifetimes.However,Ohio does have very strong populations of very venomous spiders,even deadly.There are black widows here,I read that drop for drop their venom is more toxic than that of a king cobra.There's also the brown recluse which is very common,and the highly aggressive house spider aka wolf spider.Just seen a show the other day,might have been "Most Shocking",there was two seperate stories regarding spider bites.Both were terribly graphic,and pretty much downright sickening.One guy had been bitten by a brown recluse,and the other was a teenage girl that got bit by a house spider near Toledo,Ohio.Even hospital workers were surprised to see how much damage such a little critter could do to a human.The guy was within literally seconds of losing his life,but pulled through eventually.The young girl was less fortunate,she also nearly died,and ended up having to have her arm amputated.


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## HUNTorFISH (Dec 1, 2008)

about mid july this year i was fishing a small creek fro creek chubs and had a snake come out of a culvert pipe into the water right in front of me. i have seen water snakes and garter snakes but i had never seen something like this. i had a freind with me who is terrified of snakes so he took off when he saw it. after looking at pictures the only thing i could come up with was a copperhead, the same pattern as the snakes that you have pictured, but it was a lighter brown color. the guys that know snakes, is there a good chance that copperheads swim in creeks? this was near central/ SE oh


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

HUNTorFISH said:


> about mid july this year i was fishing a small creek fro creek chubs and had a snake come out of a culvert pipe into the water right in front of me. i have seen water snakes and garter snakes but i had never seen something like this. i had a freind with me who is terrified of snakes so he took off when he saw it. after looking at pictures the only thing i could come up with was a copperhead, the same pattern as the snakes that you have pictured, but it was a lighter brown color. the guys that know snakes, is there a good chance that copperheads swim in creeks? this was near central/ SE oh


I think this is the most common species that is misidentified as copperhead because of its markings.








Is this perhaps what you saw?

As far as copperheads swimming, I am sure they can but I don't have enough experience with them to know whether the chance of seeing one do so are very high.


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## HUNTorFISH (Dec 1, 2008)

no, rather than the mostly black body it was a light brown/tan color on the snake i saw. i've got on ODNR's site and looked at the different snake pictures and the copperhead was the only thing that looked close to what i saw. and from pictures it also looked like the copperhead's color varies in different areas as well


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

For me the best way to identify a copperhead is to look at the head.Like many venomous snakes,the head will have a triangular shape,and it's cheeks will look kind of puffy.


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## slik (Oct 5, 2008)

bigcat...awesome pics! You've got nerves of steel my friend!


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