# broadhead tuning



## Mike123 (Apr 24, 2006)

ok, i need some help on this whole broadhead tuning thing. I Know they have to be out of tune because all i did was just line up the blades with my vanes.

what all do i need to do to get my broadheads to group well?


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

check out this thread.lundy made a good post on the subject.he's highly experienced and knowledgable in the achery field.http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53450&page=2&pp=10&highlight=tuning


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## Mike123 (Apr 24, 2006)

ya, i've read it before, when i spin the arrow fast you can't see the wobble then when it slows down you can, and i remember reading in a magazine that you can spin it on your hand and if you feel it vibrate it is not lined up, and will it damage my carbon arrows if i heat them up?


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## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

Mike,
Have found out that lining up the blades with the vanes is a problem. I keep them exactly in between the "vanes" for that reason. Maybe Lundy will ring in and explain what/how to heat so you don't ruin them.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

I've shot both Eastons and Goldtip carbons, and I actually apply the heat (propane tourch) to an old broad head rather than heating the arrow. I heat it just enough to soften the glue so I can rotate the insert. Its really no big deal, there pretty tough.

I read Lundy's article the other nite and it is definitely the cost comprhensive article on tuning broadheads I've ever read. I've shot fixed blade broadheads forever (30 years) and that is exactly what needs to be done to tune them. Also, as Lundy said, some arrows will never fly true no matter what you do, so try several arrows. 

I also get better results shooting feathers vs. vanes but I'm willing to bet it has more to do with the set-up than with the fletch type. I'm still shooting a launcher type rest and my vanes are probably hitting somewhere. 

Good Luck with your setup. CD


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

Mike, heating a carbon arrow will not help you at all. Everyone that I know uses an epoxy on their carbon inserts.

To tune a carbon arrow I spin the tip on my finger, do not try this with cut on impact tips I try to determine the direction the head needs tweeked (slighly bent), this is very hard to do without having an arrow roller/tuner. I tweek the arrow by holding the shaft with both hand and put the side of the tip on a piece of wood or magazine etc etc. I then slowly and gently give it a nudge to try and get it to spin true. ALOT of the time I will have made it worse so pay attention to which way you bent it by paying attention to where your c ock vein is lining up when tweeking. This is the no tools hillbilly way of doing it. I pay to have mine done at hunters outlet in suffield oh. I have purchased arrows at other achery/hunting stores and get very stupid looks when I ask their employees if they tune broadheads. Half have no idea what tuning a broadhead is and the other half try to tell me to get a nylon washer and to line up the blades with the broadhead?

Scott


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## DaleM (Apr 5, 2004)

I copied this ( Lundy made this post) from another thread about the same thing. Good stuff! Read it and it may answer your question:

Traphunter,

Your issues with broadhead flight could be a bunch of different bow tune issues, but it is pretty easy to eliminate the arrows as the source of you problems.

If you are shooting aluminum arrows with inserts that are hot melted into the end of the arrows it's a very easy check and fix,

Put the tip of the broadhead down on a piece of glass or other hard smooth surface. Spin the arrow as fast as you can, does the broadhead wobble? If it does, and it most likely does if they have never been tuned, take a propane torch and heat the end of the arrow just enough to allow you to turn the broadhead and insert inside the shaft. Rotate the insert by turning the broadhead (wear a leather glove to protect your hands from the blades and heat) in he direction to tighten the broadhead. This will spin the insert. Turn it 1/4 turn and spin test again. repeat this process until you find the sweet spot that the broadhead has no wobble during your spin test. Repeat this process for all of your arrows.

If you tune a dozen shafts and broadheads you will most likely end up with one or two that no matter how many time you adjust them they never will spin perfect. I mark these and use them for practice. I number all of my arrows based upon the spin test keeping the absolute best just for shooting a deer.

Why is necessary and what does it actually do? The inserts are not a press fit and have some tolerances from the OD to the ID of the arrow. They are not always perfectly straight when installed and you can and do have larger hot melt deposits on one side of the insert than the other. The heating and rotating process, and checking by spinning, eliminates those variables.

Why is it so important to arrow flight?. An arrow is meant to be stabilized and steered by the vanes. If you are a broadhead (fixed blade) that is not true to the centerline of the arrow the overcenter rotation detracts from the ability of the vanes to do their intended function. The broadhead is trying to do the steering and groups will not be good. This is where a mechanical broadhead shines. With the less surface area to act as control surfaces (steering) they are much less effected by out of tune issues, both bow and arrow. The out of tune issues still exist, but their impact is reduced by the smaller profile.

Add one more issue that are inherent to crossbows. Most crossbows shoot a straight fletch or very minimal helical fletch. remember that the fletching is designed to stabilize and steer the arrow. A helical fletch that is most commonly used on compounds and stick bows spins the arrow during flight to provide maximum stabilization, much like a tight spiral on a football. If the control of the fetching is being overridden by the broadhead the arrow can and will go all over the place. That is why careful consideration needs to be made when choosing the best fletching to match your desired broadhead. A compound shooter shooting a release aid and a mechanical broadhead can shoot a pretty small fletching and even less helical. A compound shooter shooting with his fingers and using a large fixed blade broadhead will require much larger fletching and more helical to control the arrow. Your arrow must be controlled by the fletching! The broadhead manufacturers started making most broadheads vented blade broadheads a bunch of year ago to reduce the control surfaces. You could shoot a huge,non vented blade broadhead, and never tune the broadheads and get very consistent groups, BUT you would need to shoot huge fletching to ensure the arrow control is from the fletching, not the broadhead. It is much easier and more practical to just tune you set up

Because most crossbows use a straight fletch and can't depend on a helical (spin) fletch for added stabilization it's even more important that the broadheads be as perfectly tuned (lined up with the centerline of the shaft) as possible to prevent the broadhead from determining the flight path versus the fletching. Out of tune broadheads account for the vast majority of broahead group issues, especially with crossbows.

One last point, lining your blades up with your fletching serves no purpose at all. It doesn't matter where your blades are in relation to your fletching, The fletching steers and the broadhead is just along for the ride, or should be anyway.

This is why I posted earlier that many will go to mechanicals, it helps mask other tuning issues but does not eliminate the underlying root causes to begin with.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

Kim


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## Mike123 (Apr 24, 2006)

ok i think i get it, all your trying to do is spin the insert inside the arrow untill you get the least amount of wobble.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Mike123,

Pappscott was right on with his carbon arrow comment about the epoxy.

Many carbon arrows use epoxy rather than hot melt to affix the insert. The time to do the tuning with epoxy and carbons is as you are building the arrows. You can perform the tuning (turning) as the epoxy is just taking it's initial set. Once the epoxy has set I know of no good way to tune your broadheads.

Spin test all of your arrows, I'm sure you will find some that spin well and some that don't, use accordantly.

Contrary to some popular thought remember that the broadhead to vane alignment on a tuned arrow has zero impact on arrow flight. The vanes steer the arrow the broadhead is just along for the ride, the only exception to this is if someone is shooting straight fletch (a no no) with a broadhead.

With a helical fletch and a tuned broadhead the arrow is spinning during flight. The surface area of the fletch (control surface) must be much larger than the surface area of the broadhead to provide flight control. This is one of the reasons most broadheads went to vented blades years ago and why most arrows use a 4-5" fletch.

You can see why a tuned broadhead is so important. As the arrow spins towards its target if the broadhead is not tuned and wobbles when spun it it is exposing varying amounts of blade with each revolution of the arrow. It's like the difference in throwing a football with a tight spiral or a wounded duck. If I had some carbons that I couldn't adjust due to the epoxy and they spun OK but not great, I could fix the problem on the other end of the arrow. I would re fletch them with 5" feathers and a hard helical, once again providing more control to minimize the broadhead effect on arrow flight. Feathers stabilize much better than plastic vanes, but the are noisy, damage easily, fly big time different when wet, are a couple FPS slower, I ONLY hunt with feathers, it's just my preference.

Having properly tuned broadheads is only one part of the equation, bow tune, center shot, timing, noc set, rest, fletch, operator, all play central roles in bow performance, especially when shooting broadheads.


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## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

Mike,
I'll contradict Lundy on the fletching/broadhead alignment. Though helical fletching reduces the impact of broadhead steering, it does not eliminate it. More fletch can dominate, but not eliminate. 

The interaction between the broadhead and fletch does depend on rotation rate and shaft length and if that is playing, more fletch will make things worse. The alignment of broadhead to fletch can not be ignored.

For more info, see the link below for lots of ideas on what might be steering them off track
http://www.bowhuntingmag.com/tactics/broadhead_flight/


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

TheKing,

With all due respect, you need to reread some of the articles you list in support of your statements. Many of your assertions are just not factual at all.

This from the article you list as your support for aligning the blades and fletch.

Note that I didn't mention anything here about aligning the broadhead's blade with the fletch. This is another campfire story that's been debunked by scientific testing. Those individuals who insist this makes a difference have likely experienced a poorly aligned insert. Rotating the insert to put the broadhead's blades in line with the fletch probably improved the broadhead's overall alignment.

Again, alignment makes zero difference, and can effectively create worse flight if you use it as your reference and it creates an even more unbalanced broadhead. Balance the broadheads and let the blades fall were they may.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

I was tuning a couple of arrows just yesterday for my boy's crossbow and I can tell you that the orientation of the broadhead blades had absolutely no impact on the pattern. The arrow finally began to fly well after rotating the broadhead prabably a full turn over 2-4 times. When I finished the blades were about as out of alignment with the vanes as they could have been. I believe as the article suggests often time the attempt to align the blades results in straightening the broadhead the insert and thus eliminating wobble.


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## Mike123 (Apr 24, 2006)

ok well it must be a lot easier with bigger blade broadheads because with my bear 2 blades the wobble sticks out like no other but with my muzzy 4 blades i can't see the wobble unless i spin it real slowly


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

To tell you the truth on the arrows I was shooting yesterday I could not see any wobble. I don't have any special inspection tools to check them. I was basically turning them turning them a little ways and then shooting them again. Each time seemed to yield a slightly different result. This is on straight fletch arrows on a crossbow which are tougher to straighten out because you don't get the spin to stabilize them.


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## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

Lundy,
If you read the article again (just posted the one), and analyze what you are reading, you might find a number of "facts" that contradict that broadhead/fletch orientation statement. But the article does demonstrate a good set of potential problems to look over as possibilities. Accuracy from the wobble problem that you refer to is most easily fixed by adding a few (25) grains to the broadhead. The added stability reduces the broadhead steering influence to insignificant levels. So depending on very small weight variances, a given archer may never see the problem at all. Buying high end bolts/blades is even easier, but tinkering can be fun, too.

I have reviewed several reports both pro and con to the broadhead orientation issue. Interesting to find BassPro and Cabelas experts disagree. So I am not so much in the minority on this as you may have thought. Argument in favor of consistent orientation is that it works. Argument against says the broadhead aerodynamics cannot influence the fletches. But I know better than that having worked the aerodynamics/flight dynamics specialty field for 25 years at the national and international level.

Sorry to offend you. And in your response to your attack on my posts, the only facts I ever posted that are in question are the size and number of fish that I catch ! !% 

BKR - it takes very little effort to try this, eh? little effect can be expected at that range.

Mike,
I sampled the avid bow hunters at work today. All set their broadhead orientation to the same for all arrows. Some in line with fletch, some out of line, but always the same. Curious factor to the survey group, they are all aerodynamic test specialists....


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

TheKing said:


> BKR - it takes very little effort to try this, eh? little effect can be expected at that range.


Actually there was a considerable effect from rotating the broadheads. I went from hitting anywhere from 4 inches right at 20 yards to high right and then low right maybe 3-4 inches. I am sure it had to do with the over straightline orientation and no reference to the fletching. Once I got them shooting well the two arrows had a different orientation to the fletching than each other. I do know that I plan to invest in an arrow analyzer to test for bends or improperly mounted broadheads.



> I sampled the avid bow hunters at work today. All set their broadhead orientation to the same for all arrows. Some in line with fletch, some out of line, but always the same. Curious factor to the survey group, they are all aerodynamic test specialists....


No offense intended here but I have seen mechanical engineers that I wouldn't trust to touch anything I own. They are quite capable in their realm but everything outside of that is a whole different picture. I have spoken to a great deal of archers and a couple of shop owners and I have heard different views on this as well. What I recommend is that everyone should take these recommendations and tweak their arrows themselves (by heating and rotating) until they get the desired results. If that means they don't end up with consistent orientation then I would not sweat it.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

TheKing,

I am not an aerodynamics engineer, all of my limited knowledge comes from experience shooting bows and arrows for a few years.

I am extremely confident that at what is considered normal bowhunting yardages that blade to fletch orientation has no discernible effect on arrow flight or point of impact. I know this not because of books or air tunnels, but from 10's of thousands of arrows actually shot by me and instruction and hands on trouble shooting and bow instruction I have provided to at least 100 individuals over the years. 

If however I wanted to fly arrows with broadheads over extreme distances then, there very well may be a influence and orientation effect. Much like two bullets of the same weight, at the same speed with varying ballistic coefficients. Out to 100 yds there would be very minimal if any discernible difference, at 400 yds there would be a large difference. In bowhunting and arrow flight at reasonable yardages there just is no measurable influence.

My concern over your continued stated position has much more to do with the potential damage that may occur to a bowhunters arrow flight if they were to follow you suggestion on blade to fletch orientation. If their arrow inserts were 100% aligned then they could turn them any way you suggest with no negative results, however the reality is that until you spin balance an arrow the chances of them being 100% aligned is remote at best. Someone turning the blades to match the fletch for no other reason than to match the fletch can adversely effect their arrow flight. Any bowhunter spin balancing an arrow and leaving the fletching where it falls can only improve arrow flight there can be no negative.

So as we pass information on to those that ask for it on sites like this we need to do our best to share experience and knowledge that will provide the most benefit and certainly be very careful to not provide information that can in fact cause the problem to become worse. Remember many of these threads started with a bowhunter experiencing poor broadhead flight. Changing the fletch to blade orientation won't help it, balancing the broadhead will fix the problem or isolate it to a bow tune issue.



TheKing said:


> Lundy,
> I sampled the avid bow hunters at work today. All set their broadhead orientation to the same for all arrows. Some in line with fletch, some out of line, but always the same. Curious factor to the survey group, they are all aerodynamic test specialists....


There is nothing curious about that at all. The bowhunting world is full of people, even aerodynamic test specialists  that don't know how to tune a broadhead 

We are shooting deer at under 40 yards not flying these arrows to the moon


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

By the way,

I am very done with this subject.

Good hunting everyone!!


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## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

> Actually there was a considerable effect from rotating the broadheads. I went from hitting anywhere from 4 inches right at 20 yards to high right and then low right maybe 3-4 inches. I am sure it had to do with the over straightline orientation and no reference to the fletching. Once I got them shooting well the two arrows had a different orientation to the fletching than each other. I do know that I plan to invest in an arrow analyzer to test for bends or improperly mounted broadheads.


Experience has shown that there are many variables in broadhead accuracy. And yes, broadhead - fletch orientation is one of them. It can not be ignored. It is part of the basic physics of arrow flight.

FYI, I sampled the literature produced by archery experts yesterday. Similar to those engineers/technicians, about half of them are incompetent too.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

I have to agree with Lundy on the orientation of the fletch to blades. If your insert is properly aligned with the shaft, the arrow would fly true. Actual blade location had no effect. 

As for glue types on carbon shafts, I agree that SOME people use epoxy to install the inserts into carbon shafts but not ALL. I believe that Ferl-tite was used on inserts on alum. shafts and that it did not work very well on carbon shafts. However, the glue that is used with the "hot glue guns" seems to hold up quite well. It's advantage is that your inserts are moveable and replaceable if need be. I do know that some proshops use hot glue on their carbon arrows, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. ( it looks exactly like the hot glue sticks ) The old style Ferl-tite didn't work because it was too brittle and wouldn't adhere to the carbon shafts, the hot glue is a little more rubbery. It works.

Mike, I actually heat an old Bear Razorhead to soften the glue, then turn it with pliers. If your inserts are put in with epoxy, you have about a 50% chance of them coming loose. If they don't come loose, get all your arrow together, provided you bought a dozen, and spin test them all. Set the best spinning shafts aside for your broadheads. I would then shoot them all and keep the best for hunting. 

I base my information, on 30 years of being involved in archery. I have built my own arrows for 25 years and have alot of hours trial and error under my belt. Anyone wanting to get their fixed blade broadheads to fly like their field points should follow Lundys advice, I'm sure its based expierence.


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## flypilot33 (Feb 9, 2006)

I just screw the broadhead in, make sure it spins right the figure it's ready to hunt. I have never had a problem so....."if it ain't broke, don't fix it"....so I won't be aligning my blades to fletches.


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## Mike123 (Apr 24, 2006)

ya, lucky me the epoxy i used would loosen up when heated. Well i got 4 hunting arrows all spinning pefectly so thanks for the help.


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