# Oct 15 is final decision on my Froggin Rod...



## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Oct 15th is final decision on my Froggin Rod... (Payday)
Lew's Speed Spool Tournament Pro reel, with 50lb Sufix 832 will be on it.

I do believe I want a medium heavy action, over a heavy action rod for Ohio.







*The 4 rods on my mind right now:*
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G-Loomis Top Water Series Casting Rod 6'5" (TWR773 C)
Medium Heavy action rod, with a Fast tip 10-17lb line $250.00

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Dobyns 735 Casting Rod 7'3" Savvy Series (S735C)
Medium Heavy action rod, with a Extra Fast tip 12-25lb line $169.99
Geting the 'standard' guides, not 'micro' guides due to using braided line.

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Grim Reaper Rods, 7'3" -or 7'0" (My choice)
Medium Heavy action rod, with a Extra Fast tip $140.00 includes shipping.

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Tour Elite Dean Rojas Castong Rod 7'0" (TTC706XFPB3)
Medium Heavy action rod, with a Extra Fast tip 10-20lb line $119.99

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I would rather have the G-Loomis with a Extra Fast tip, but they don't come that way in their 'low end' $250.00 range... Gasp! 

I did call and talk to James at Grim Reaper Rods. He is a nice man, and from our conversation, I believe the man knows his stuff on rods.
I told him I need another payday to hit first, but there was a good chance I would be contacting him again a a few days to place an order.

The Grim Reaper Rod is probably my favorite, at this moment in time.

Any opinions or advice? 

I found it posted on the net that the 'standard' guides, not 'micro' guides is the better way to go, due to using braided line.
Not sure if it is a valid concern or not really...

How many guys would actually forget the dedicated froggin rod idea, and step back to a true 'Medium' action rod, for a better all-rounder...

I just don't want too much of a broomstick rod, froggin or not!


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## freshwater_newb (May 16, 2013)

All I know is that I have the MH 7'1" Fast action rod and feel a bit hampered by it since I'm not going to use it exclusively for froggin.

I am very actively considering returning it and getting a 7'1" M with moderate-fast action instead as it could be used for more applications.


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## bgrapala (Nov 1, 2008)

While I like the idea of a "dedicated rod", I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to go MH and get a very versitale rod. I have a 7'1" MH rod and I absolutely love it for throwing 99% of my lures. I tried the dedicated frog rod and ended up hating it and getting rid of it because I hardly ever used it. I fish with a braid as my main line and 75% of the time I'm using a 3 ft, 15lb floro leader. This setup is awesome and if I want to throw topwater, I simply snip the leader off. With some walker style topwaters, I've even sometimes leave the leader on and fish it. The slight pull underwater gives it a subsurface walk in the first few jerks then it hops right back up on top and fishes like normal.

Also, I recommend Power Pro Slick 8 over the Sufix 832. I have and use both, but I much prefer the PP.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Talonman, you know where I stand here, but I will say this; I have two rods that I use most of the time. Both have the same action and both have fast tips. However, if you weren't told that you might use them and think one has a slower tip than the other. In reality, it does, but that's not what's printed on the rod. The problem that everyone runs into with your situation is that there is no industry standard to go by. Time with the rod in your hand is the only way to tell for sure. 

Here in Ohio, I personally don't see a reason to have a heavy rod unless you fish for something larger and more aggressive Bass and similar sized fish. The reason I don't is because I also don't use technique specific rods; all my rods pull double duty. That being said I also don't see any problems if someone wants a heavy rod, I just don't see the reason and likely catch smaller fish IMO.

Remember to look at return policies and guarantees on the rods as well. Lastly, if you're lime me and look for the most bang for the buck, check which rods manufacturers use what hardware Nd materials when producing their rods. I've found some much more affordable rods that use the same stuff as rods that get a lot of money for their name!

Mr. A


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Thanks for the input...


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## NewbreedFishing (Apr 15, 2004)

rolling my eyes....cough cough!!!





freshwater_newb said:


> All I know is that I have the MH 7'1" Fast action rod and feel a bit hampered by it since I'm not going to use it exclusively for froggin.
> 
> I am very actively considering returning it and getting a 7'1" M with moderate-fast action instead as it could be used for more applications.


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## freshwater_newb (May 16, 2013)

NewbreedFishing said:


> rolling my eyes....cough cough!!!


Why you say that? 

Is it because it sounds just like something someone you know said to me already?


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## NewbreedFishing (Apr 15, 2004)

I learned the same way...the HARD way.


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

I have been thinking about what rod might fit best in my collection if baitcasters.

and did receive my Lew's Speed Spool Tournament Pro today, and mounted on an old pole I had, just for fun... 

*Currently own:*

Cabela's Fish Eagle II CX2 IM-6 graphite 7'0" *Medium action rod.*
8-20lbs GC11704 1/2-11/2oz
Shamano Curado CU-201
LH retrieve 10/155, 14/110.
**Either a 6.5:1 or 7.0:1 Ratio, not sure...

Cabelas Classic IM-6 graphite 6'6" *Medium-Heavy action rod.*
PCA666 1MH-N 10-17lbs 
Lew's Speed Spool Tournament Pro 7.1:1 Ratio
LH retrieve.

Galyans Model 1503 IM-7 graphite 6'6" *Medium action rod.*
8-20lbs 1/4-3/4oz
Quantum Energy E400 5.1:1 Ratio
RH retrieve (Looking to trade, or replace this reel for LH retrieve)

Not sure if the IM-6's are keepers, or generally considered 'good to replace' rods...

If this was your 3 baitcasters, what would you upgrade next?


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

A medium heavy power fast action, or extra fast action rod, is a very versatile rod. It's not just a frogging rod. They're great for weedless jigs, Texas rigged worms, spinner baits, swim baits, Carolina rigs, weightless stick worms (Senko style baits) pretty much everything except treble hooked baits. 

As far as the whole heavy power versus medium heavy power thing goes.... there really isn't that much of a difference between the two, that I can see. Medium heavy is probably a little better if you are fishing more open water, or a moving bait like a spinner bait, or a swim bait. If you wanted a dedicated frogging rod, or heavy cover rod, I personally would go with heavy power, over medium heavy power. If you are making long casts the majority of the time. I think a rod with more power is a better choice, regardless of the type of line you're using. 

Freshwater_newb ...... just my opinion here. But the medium power, moderate fast action rod you are talking about is going to be far less versatile. That's really a crank bait/top water rod. Treble hooked lures versus single hooked lures. I don't think you'd be very happy with it, if you were looking for it to be a good all around rod. Just my opinion.


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## freshwater_newb (May 16, 2013)

@Bassbme: I think these ZX rods might be a bit heavier than they are listed. The MH/fast one I bought, I'd be happy to use with one of my deep sea reels. Thing has a backbone like a bull. I could haul some very big fish outta some deeeep water with this.

Throwing 1/2oz topwaters, like my booya frog, has been a PITA for me though. There is very little flex in this rod and with any reasonably sized freshwater lure 1/4-5/8oz it is the whole broomstick phenomenon. I feel very disconnected from the terminal tackle while casting and upon retrieve have zero feel for anything happening on the other end of the line.

I got snagged on a tree limb this morning in the fast moving water below a low-head on Alum creek. 8-9ft long, 7" diameter. I dragged that thing across the current like it was nothing. Rod didn't flex more than 8" past vertical the whole time. Got my 3/8oz jig back too.

I've tried multiple lures while testing this rod and as much as I want to love it, it's just too heavy for bass/saugeye/whatever else freshwater fishing I'm gonna get to do here in central ohio. I could chuck 2-3oz all day long on it though and I'd happily buy another one just like it the next time one of my saltwater rods breaks.

Haven't returned it yet, but I'm gonna get that other one a step down from this and try it for a couple days and swap back and forth and see where I'm at before I do any returning.


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

I didn't even realize, that I already had a Medium-heavy action rod in my possession.
I guess I didn't look close enough. 

I did notice that my IM7 rod is more stiff than my IM6 rods. That makes it even more difficult to make a blanket statement and just say 'go with a medium-heavy' or 'medium' action rod...

There appears to be more to it than that.

I started searching the net and found this info:

The IM6, IM7, IM8, etc., designation was originally a brand name for Hercules Corp, to indicate how much graphite fiber was in your rod. The original IM materials produced by the hexcel corp have not been produced in over 10-years.

The higher the modulus, the less material is needed to obtain the same stiffness per weight. Thus meaning, less material is used, and that means a lighter rod blank. With that said, great caution needs to be used by you the consumer when buying any rod with a modulus rating greater than 42-million modulus. Because along with modulus is another rating call the Strain rate. Typically, the higher the modulus the lower the strain rate. Meaning the more bittle the rod becomes. High End Rod Manufacturers like G.Loomis and St. Croix special engineer their high modulus rods so that they maintain a high strain rate (one major reason why their rods cost more money).

A cheap high modulus rod is going to be incredibly sensitive. Yet, at the same time be extremely brittle!!! Where a High End (G.Loomis, St. Croix) will be incredibly sensitive and strong. So buy 10 cheap rods and know you are buying a throw away rod, or buy one G.Loomis that is guaranteed for life! 

Right now I am thinking that a *medium-heavy* action rod in IM6, could very well feel like a *medium* action rod in IM7, due to the IM7 already being a stiffer material by it's nature.

Do you guys own any IM6 rods any more, or do you phase them out of your collection ASAP?


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

I couldn't even tell you what my frog rod is. I just went into wall mart and bought a broomstick rod and reel and loaded it with 50 lb suffix 832. this is just my opinion but for fishing very heavy cover or pads you want something that is going to get a good sized fish out of that very heavy cover fast. I mean its not finesse fishing here. your not worried about getting a good fight in open water with a worm. your only objective here should be keeping the fish from tangling in half of the cover in the water your fishing. but like I say this is just my opinion.

I do have another rod that I do 90% of my bass fishing with. I have it spooled with 20 lb suffix 832 for fishing everything from a crank bait in open water to a weedless worm in light cover. and have caught quite a few smaller bass on my eagle claw feather lite while blue gill fishing with a piece of night crawler. but for frog fishing I want a broom stick and some heavy line.
sherman


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

There is a thread about frothing and a growing rod thread by freshwater_newb that you should find and read. Seriously. Newb stays threads that apparently are good mental notes about what he is buying/reviewing. They quickly turn into a pile of useful information crammed into a few long posts, heart info to.

I still have an IM6 rod. Is the only 2 piece casting rod I own so is my travel rod for the jeep. While I do not prefer it over my other rod its because of length not materials.

Mr. A


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Now I am starting wonder if I should just keep my current rods for a few more weeks, and upgrade the Quantum RH baitcaster on my IM-7 rod, on the 15th...

*I could make my collection of 3 baitcasters look like this on the 15th:*
(Rig -1)
Galyans Model 1503 IM-7 graphite 6'6" *Medium action rod.*
8-20lbs 1/4-3/4oz
** Lew's BB-1 Pro Series Speed Spool Casting Reel $199.99
PS1HZL Left 6.4:1 12/160
-OR-
PS1SHZL Left 7.1:1 12/160
Selecting whatever gear ratio I feel is the more strategic for me... 

(Rig -2)
Cabela's Fish Eagle II CX2 IM-6 graphite 7'0" *Medium action rod.*
8-20lbs GC11704 1/2-11/2oz
Shamano Curado CU-201
LH retrieve 10/155, 14/110.
**Either a 6.5:1 or 7.0:1 Ratio, not sure...

*Words of wisdom:*


Bassbme said:


> A medium power, moderate fast action rod is really a crank bait/top water rod, best used with treble hooked lures.



(Rig -3)
Cabelas Classic IM-6 graphite 6'6" *Medium-Heavy action rod.*
PCA666 1MH-N 10-17lbs 
Lew's Speed Spool Tournament Pro 7.1:1 Ratio
LH retrieve.

*Words of wisdom:*


Bassbme said:


> A medium heavy power fast action, or extra fast action rod, is a very versatile rod. It's not just a frogging rod. They're great for weedless jigs, Texas rigged worms, spinner baits, swim baits, Carolina rigs, weightless stick worms (Senko style baits) pretty much everything except treble hooked baits.


Thanks for the posts Bassbme! 

Is there a 'best' ratio for crankbates? 6.4:1 -or- 7.1:1 ?


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

Talonman ..... You post about graphite modulus and strain rate is interesting. But ..... it's not as true now a days as it was back when higher modulus rods were first being built. Quite a few manufacturers today are using high modulus high strain rate graphite. The following is an excerpt from an article by Gary Loomis that was in an FLW magazine from 2003.

With the original materials used for graphite rods, as the modulus rate increased, the strain rate would decrease, resulting in the rods being more acceptable to failures because of brittleness. However, through the advancements of materials, technology and engineering design, companies are able to produce high-modulus, high-strain-rate rods. These new high-tech fishing rods are super-light, responsive, and extremely sensitive and strong.

But the misconception of brittleness still plagues them, and the reason for this is because as the modulus gets higher, the less material is needed and therefore used. This means that the wall thickness in the blank, which is basically a hollow tube, is thinner. Remember what I said before  weight is the deterrence to performance, Loomis said, and went on to tell a story:

Left out the story about a broken rod that broke from abuse and not normal use.

The point of this story is that these high-modulus, high-strain-rate, thin-walled rods are extremely strong and are highly unlikely ever to break under normal use. Almost all rods are damaged by other means  an angler accidentally stepping on them, hitting them against a hard surface while casting, or storing them where a toolbox or some other heavy object can slide into them. Then, with the damage done, the rod collapses while under the stress of fighting a fish. So while high-modulus, high-strain-rate rods are not brittle, they do require more care in storage and transport.

So yes.... if you aren't careful with your equipment, I would agree that you should stay away with what amounts to a rod made from graphite rated higher than IM7. But if you are careful with the handling of your equipment, and don't "high stick" (over bending the tip of your rod while in a near vertical position) your rod, or abuse it any other way. You can use high modulus rods for any kind of presentation and line type that you want, without worry of them breaking

Just thought I would help clear up what could be a misconception from the past.


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Outstanding post! :glasses-cool:

Thanks...

I will end up getting some high end rods for sure.

I do find it interesting that both my official 'medium' action rods are rated for 20lb line...

And my official 'medium-heavy' action rod is only rated for 17lb line.

I am thinking this is where the quality of the rod comes into play.

Normally I would expect the official 'medium-heavy' action rating on the rod, to be rated for stronger line than a true 'medium' action rod would be...


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## grub_man (Feb 28, 2005)

Talonman said:


> The IM6, IM7, IM8, etc., designation was originally a brand name for Hercules Corp, to indicate how much graphite fiber was in your rod. The original IM materials produced by the hexcel corp have not been produced in over 10-years.
> 
> The higher the modulus, the less material is needed to obtain the same stiffness per weight. Thus meaning, less material is used, and that means a lighter rod blank. With that said, great caution needs to be used by you the consumer when buying any rod with a modulus rating greater than 42-million modulus. Because along with modulus is another rating call the Strain rate. Typically, the higher the modulus the lower the strain rate. Meaning the more bittle the rod becomes. High End Rod Manufacturers like G.Loomis and St. Croix special engineer their high modulus rods so that they maintain a high strain rate (one major reason why their rods cost more money).
> 
> ...


Talonman,

Rod blank materials aren't all that cut and dried these days. A good rod blank is more in the design than the material to an extent. A manufacturer can add a small wrap of high modulus graphite at the butt of a cheap fiberglass rod and advertise it as being built with high modulus graphite. Granted this is a little more of an extreme example than what really occurs, but you must be careful when comparing blanks on marketing materials.

What you are seeing comparing your rods of different materials is that there is no industry standard to describe what a M, MH, H, etc. are. Blanks get these designations as well as their line/lure ratings based on how they expect users will use a rod. In general, a lot of rods compare fairly well to their competition within reason, but every once in a while, you will find one that just seems out of place.

Regardless of whether the blank designer chooses to use standard modulus ~36 million modulus, intermediate modulus ~43 million modulus, or high modulus ~54 million modulus (anything higher doesn't lend itself well to being used in the top half of a blank), a blank can be designed with the same length, power, and action. The differences will be in the physical weight and the resonant frequency. A lighter blank has less mass and a lower moment of inertia, allowing the rod to become more efficient. A comparative measurement of the resonant frequency before and after a build can give you an idea of the impact the rod design has on the original blank. As you add inertia (mass and it's distribution) to the blank, you will lower the resonant frequency as the rod becomes less efficient, reacts and recovers more slowly, and feels less crisp in the hand.

A high modulus rod is not inherently brittle. What is different is that a high modulus rod requires less material to create a rod with the same length action and power. A low modulus rod with a large diameter and thin walls can be much less durable than a high modulus blank with a smaller diameter and thicker walls. The design is very important, and there is a smaller margin for error when the designer is working with high modulus materials. Additionally, the current trend is that blank makers are going to multi-modulus designs that combine higher and lower modulus materials in different sections of the rod to achieve lower weights and greater durability than ever before. Combined with some of the new resin systems, there are some very light, sensitive, yet durable rod blanks out there now.

To take things even further, look at Hydra Fishing. They currently have blanks that eliminate the use of a lower modulus scrim material (provides hoop strength for a blank). These blanks are made from a surprisingly low modulus graphite, but are lighter and more sensitive than many of their competitors' mid modulus blanks. It's simply incredible what can be done with a good design.

What I think you are shooting for is how to choose a blank material for a rod. To be clear, when I speak of sensitivity coming up it refers to the ability of the rod to transfer impulses (changes in momentum) to your hand. In particular impulses that have a component parallel to the direction of the line attached to the lure. A fish can slam the lure sideways like a freight train, and you would never know it without seeing the line move.

High modulus rods come at a premium price. This premium is because the materials cost more, designs must be better, and manufacturers plan to replace abused rods. Any rod blank that survives its first use or two is most likely free of factory defects. Most large scale manufacturers treat their warranties like an insurance policy, hence the flat fee replacements that you see now. A high modulus rod feels extremely light and crisp in the hand. You feel more subtle ticks. I like to use a high modulus rod when fishing light lures in finesse type situations where I want to feel as much as possible through the rod.

Intermediate modulus rods tend to offer a lot of bang for the buck. They feel light and crisp in the hand. While not as sensitive as a high modulus blank, they are more than adequate, especially when used with weights that maintain bottom contact pretty well. I use intermediate/mid modulus blanks for most general purpose rods.

Standard modulus blanks are real work horses, come at a reasonable price, and have their place. They can be a great option for short line techniques and techniques where a great deal of sensitivity isn't required. I also like them for their low cost in multi-piece travel rods, and as kids' rods.

Fiberglass rod blanks. Fiberglass still has its place in fishing. When fishing with treble hooks, a rod that reacts and recovers too quickly will allow the tension on the line to decrease quicker making it easier for the fish to throw the lure, or pull the hooks when a fish surges close to the boat. For treble hook lures, I like to use S-glass, which is a higher modulus fiberglass material. The blanks I use are large diameter thin wall designs, and surprisingly light when you see the physical dimensions of the blank.

There are a lot of factors to consider when choosing a rod for a specific application. For a frog rod I would lean toward a standard or mid modulus blank with a 1/4-3/4oz., 1/4-1oz., or 3/8-1+oz. lure rating. It depends a bit on where you fish. Small bass under algae mats with open water underneath can be handled with a ML rod rod and 6lb. mono in a pinch when using weightless plastics. Large pads with lots of cover underneath will require a much more powerful rod, especially with a bulkier frog and heavy duty hooks.

As far as action, I would tend toward a fast action. The limber tip combined with a little extra power in the butt that comes with an extra fast action sound great, but long casts, heavy low stretch line, and hard hook sets are a recipe for high sticking, and can make your rod about 14" shorter in a hurry, especially if the blank locks up in the mid section like many extra fast action drop shot rods. If the blank is a bit more forgiving in the mid section, then you may be okay, it depends on the design.

In regard to the use of micro guides, they can withstand heavy lines. There are plenty of rods out there employing micros on rods using up to 80lb. braid. The only times to avoid them are if you cannot pass your line to line connections through them (though with the right knots and leaders that wrap around the spool a few times they can pass connections), or if you plan on fishing a lot in air temps under 25 F. The rule of thumb is that a rod should use the smallest lightest guides that will stand up to the task at hand and pass all required connections.

Joe


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Wow... Thanks Joe.

Good info for sure. 

On blank material,

What might one consider spending to get a High modulus rod...

And what might a intermediate modulus rod go for...

Just ballpark figures.

I think I probably already have enough low's!

Is a G-Loomis Top Water Series Casting Rod 6'5" (TWR773 C) at $250.00 a high, because they do make $500.00 dollar rods too.

Just trying to figure out how much you need to pay for an official high. 


I now agree design is the most important, it's just a shame the average dude will have to lean on advertizing... We probably won't know if they were BSing us about their superior design, until we click buy. 

I can't imagine too many rod manufacturers down-playing their design...

The 4 rods listed in my OP are still on my radar.

Off topic: Is there a 'best' ratio for crankbates? 6.4:1 -or- 7.1:1 ?


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## grub_man (Feb 28, 2005)

In terms of ball park figures, look at St. Croix Legend Elite, G. Loomis GLX, NRX, top of the line Phenix rods as high modulus rods for examples. They will set you back in the neighborhood of $300+ in most instances for a factory rod. Retail price for the high modulus bass blanks available to custom builders is ~$150-$250+. Mud Hole offers nice high modulus blanks a little cheaper than most in their MHX line.

For mid modulus blanks, look at St. Croix Avid, G. Loomis IMX, Falcon Cara, etc. Most of these rods sell for ~$150-$200 range. Blanks are usually retail in the $80-$125 range.

For standard modulus blanks, look at the St. Croix Premier, Falcon Original/Bucoo/Lowrider, G. Loomis GL2 or GL3. These rods typically sell for ~$100-$125 now depending on the premium you pay for a name and/or warranty. It's not uncommon for these rods to have 5 year warranties these days rather than the Lifetime Warranties of the past. Blanks usually retail ~$30-$80 depending on the manufacturer and the application.

Joe


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

grub_man said:


> In terms of ball park figures, look at St. Croix Legend Elite, G. Loomis GLX, NRX, top of the line Phenix rods as high modulus rods for examples. They will set you back in the neighborhood of $300+ in most instances for a factory rod. Retail price for the high modulus bass blanks available to custom builders is ~$150-$250+. Mud Hole offers nice high modulus blanks a little cheaper than most in their MHX line.
> 
> For mid modulus blanks, look at St. Croix Avid, G. Loomis IMX, Falcon Cara, etc. Most of these rods sell for ~$150-$200 range. Blanks are usually retail in the $80-$125 range.
> 
> ...


Man!! You know your rods Joe.

It's more than apparent! Thanks... 

Now you have me looking at the St. Croix Legend Elite LEC70MHF at $350.00! 
LEC70MHF	7' Fast MH 12-20 3/8-14.4
Sweet rod I bet...


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## NewbreedFishing (Apr 15, 2004)

Very interesting post. Thanks for the insight Grub Man. I tried to direct freshwaternoob on buying a rod and he went with what he felt was best. 

i bought a DIAWA 'Lite and Tuff' 7'3" FROGGING telescopic. I have only used it a few times. Not even sure if i have caught a bass on it or not. Awesome rod and lite as a feather. It seems like it would be better for flipping jigs then froggin. It has a wierd tip guide to it which i guess is better for braid?

I do have a few nice baitcasting rods and really enjoy using them

STCROIX TournLedgend Bass 6-8 Medium Topwater
Kistler Helium 7' Med Heavy
Shimano Cumara 6-9 (not sure specifics) but the rod feels spongy when a fish hits compaired to my other sticks. Could this be the foam handle vs the cork??

I have a few cheaper rods that I really like

BPS Rick Clunn Power fishing system Spinnerbait rod.
wished they still made these

Wright McGill Rick Clunn Clear water Squarebill....love throwing big cranks and 3/4-1oz spinnerbaits with this rod. 

I am looking into some Loomis spinning rods after breaking 4 different rods this season  I have replaced my St Croix thru the company and that was pretty pain free. I like the insurance of being able to replace my investment for only 50$ 

if i could add one piece of advice. i would wait until winter-early spring and check Tackle Warehouse for sales and older model clearances. they also place alot of rods up after ICAST that were used for display. You not goin to be froggin in November unless your headed to Florida. 
good luck with whatever u choose


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## grub_man (Feb 28, 2005)

Newbreed,

I think that is standard fare for the rods designed for frogging. They are designed to fit the needs of the guys fishing the mats on the California Delta and in the deep south where they need to pull large fish up and out in a hurry. Around here where the average bass is much smaller, a rod with that much beef isn't as much of a requirement.

I'm not sure why the Cumara feels spongy to you. Its usually a sign of the rod dissipating energy somewhere. Either through a heavier guide train or excess weight at the butt would be my primary suspects. This added mass takes more time to stop, and my tinkering around with balancing rods showed that a rod with weight added to the butt for balancing will make a rod feel less crisp and the signals more noisy. It could be the foam vs. cork thing, but those rods don't use a large amount of foam, so I wouldn't think there would be enough excess weight there to cause the issues. It could also be the difference in blank materials and design. 

It sounds like you have a nice arsenal of sticks to use. I have a buddy that uses a lot of BPS and Cabela's branded rods, and there are some nice rods out there at a very fair price.

Joe


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

Well, I was thinking of getting another reel first, but rods are #1 priority again.

Out of the 3 casting rods that I own, all have issues.

One is the ceramic insert is missing from the top, smallest line guide.
It was making my Sufix 832 drag, and jump on the guide, rather than sliding smoothly across it. 

My second rod has a crack in the reel mount...

The third rod wont unscrew to release the reel. It is stuck in place.

Cheep [email protected]$#*^ crap! 

I need 2 good casting rods at least...


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

NewbreedFishing....... I'm curious about the Shimano Cumara rod you mentioned. What color is the rod blank? The reason I ask is, the first Cumara rods (black rod blank) had two separate series of rods under the Cumara name. One was designed for slack line techniques, and the other was called a reaction series of rods that were designed for techniques that use a tensioned line. The reaction series had slower actions than those that were designed for use with slack line techniques. The slower action rod could be the reason it feels spongy to you.


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## freshwater_newb (May 16, 2013)

Talonman said:


> Off topic: Is there a 'best' ratio for crankbates? 6.4:1 -or- 7.1:1 ?


My understanding is that lower/slower geared reels are better for cranks. In the 5.2:1 vicinity and below. 

6.4 is considered a fast retrieve reel while 7.1 is very fast


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## freshwater_newb (May 16, 2013)

Joe/ Grub_Man

Thanks for chiming in and flexing the knowledge in your posts above. Gives me a ton to think about for future purchases and a fair few things to review for resolving my current selection.

tha' newb


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

freshwater_newb said:


> My understanding is that lower/slower geared reels are better for cranks. In the 5.2:1 vicinity and below.
> 
> 6.4 is considered a fast retrieve reel while 7.1 is very fast


Thanks man!


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## NewbreedFishing (Apr 15, 2004)

Bassme i do remember the reaction series as i had purchased one of those as well drop shot-spinning. Unfortunately it had a very short life 
a musky/cat or something grabbed it off the side of my boat with a vibe hangin from it at water level. i jumped in behind it and never got it back!!
i snorkled and waded the area for weeks looking for it with no luck. still bites me to this day. 
Can u elaborate on what u mean by tensioned??
I will get the info off of that rod and return to this post. I do know it is a black blank. I have a BPS JMGold Eliete 7.1 on it for buzzin. As said before very very different feel on the strike and load up. I hit a 5lbr (finesse spinnerbait) on it a few months ago thankfully it was out in open water cuz the bass seemed to go where she wanted. 




Bassbme said:


> NewbreedFishing....... I'm curious about the Shimano Cumara rod you mentioned. What color is the rod blank? The reason I ask is, the first Cumara rods (black rod blank) had two separate series of rods under the Cumara name. One was designed for slack line techniques, and the other was called a reaction series of rods that were designed for techniques that use a tensioned line. The reaction series had slower actions than those that were designed for use with slack line techniques. The slower action rod could be the reason it feels spongy to you.


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## grub_man (Feb 28, 2005)

newb,

Anytime.

Newbreed,

I think bassbme is referring to a line under tension, i.e. a line fishing cranks or spinnerbaits, as opposed to a line without as much constant load like jigging/worming rod. Rods with a slower action react and recover a bit slower than rods with a fast action, making them a bit better for treble hook lures.

Your last post gave me the info to diagnose the difference a little better. When you say it's very different on the strike and load up, it has me leaning more toward the blank design than anything else. When you set the hook with your other rods, do they feel like they lock up at a certain point? Then when you set the hook with the Cumara, does it feel a bit soft and spongy? If so, it's the design.

Some blanks are designed so they don't lock up, and in theory, this is a good thing for dealing with surging fish by the boat. A rod that doesn't lock up isn't as likely to pull the hooks on a poorly hooked fish. The elite guys with custom rods in the boat use rods with a bit slower action than you might expect and/or rods that don't lock up in a variety of techniques. Blanks with this type of feel take some getting used to, and I can't get used to it.

As an example, my favorite finesse worm rod is built on a Batson RX8+S823, 6'10" 3/16-5/8oz extra fast action. I picked up a blank that many like a lot an MHX MB782 3/16-5/8oz. fast action. The first time I fished the MHX rod, I thought it was underpowered and spongy feeling. So, I placed them on the duplicator board side by side and hung equal weights from both. The flexed to about the same depth (measured as the amount the rod deflects from horizontal), showing that they are similar in power. The big difference is that the MHX blank is designed so there is a more progressive loading of the rod whereas the Batson blank becomes much stiffer at a certain point.

A simple analogy comes from the physics of springs. An ideal spring takes a fixed amount of force to stretch a given distance. The ratio of the force applied to the distance the spring stretches is a constant k with units of force/distance (N/m or lb./in., etc.). A fishing rod loads and unloads in a similar manner, but a fishing rod is not an ideal spring. The amount the rod deflects depends on how deeply the rod is flexed, resulting in a spring constant that increases with the depth the rod is flexed. The rod that feels spongy has a 'spring constant' that increases at a different rate than the rod that locks up.

Joe


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## NewbreedFishing (Apr 15, 2004)

The rod is a regular cumara CUC6-9M extra fast IM10 3/8-1/2 oz
8-17 or 20-40 braid

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Bassbme (Mar 11, 2012)

Grub man hit it on the nose as far as what I was referring to as a tensioned line. Even though the Reaction series of rods use the same nomenclature in describing the speed of the action, they seemed to load more along the length of the blank, than did the rods that were designated as being designed for slack line techniques. i.e. worms, jigs, Senkos. Shimano has designated rods for use with slack or tensioned lines, in a few of their rod series in the past. And even though the rods are designated as having the same power and action, the rods "feel" completely different when compared to each other. 

Newbreed..... the Cumara rod you mentioned is from the Reaction series, and as such was designed for fishing moving baits. It's becoming pretty well accepted that moving baits are better fished on a slightly slower action, or on a rod that loads along more of the length of the blank, because it allows the fish to get the bait deeper into their mouth. If you compare two rods with the same power ratings, the rod with the slower action is going to feel less powerful in your hand. At least that has been my experience.


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## Talonman (Sep 12, 2013)

I have the 'high modulus' bug right now... and I found this rod:

*Lew's Team HM85 Speed Stick Cast Rod 7'2" Med Hvy*
Taper -- Line Wt. --- Lure Wt. -- Guides -- Handle Type -- Handle Length
Fast --- 12-20lb ---- 3/8-1oz --- 9+Tip --- HM85 Cast C -- 15"

*Price $199.99*

Delivering tournament caliber performance with Lew's rugged reliability, the Lew's Team HM85 Speed Stick Series Casting Rods feature ultra sensitive high modulus blanks and premium Fuji components.

The Lew's Team HM85 Speed Stick Series Casting Rods offer high-end tournament caliber performance for a range of bass fishing applications. Premium lightweight HM85 graphite blanks feature multi-layer, multi-directional 85 million modulus graphite that is reinforced with premium resins to furnish incredible sensitivity and the backbones necessary to stop big fish dead in their tracks. Premium Fuji Tangle-Free KR-Series Guides with Alconite Inserts are also precisely positioned along each blank using Fuji&#8217;s Concept Spacing to provide optimum rod curvature for increased casting distance and fish fighting power. Skeletal graphite reel seats also provide direct access to the blank for increased sensitivity transfer and premium cork split grips help keep the rods lightweight and balanced as well. Lightweight, sensitive and powerful, the Lew's Team HM85 Speed Stick Series Casting Rods have what it takes to put you at the top of the podium.

$200.00 is a good price for a true 'high modulus' rod...
Maybe a little too good? 

Do you guys think Lew's 'high modulus blanks' are as good as St. Croix Legend Elite, G. Loomis GLX, NRX, and Phenix 'high modulus blanks'??

----------------------------------------------------------------

I also have my eye on this:
G-Loomis TWFR854C Top Water Frog Series Casting Rod $260.00
ModelTD Code - Length -- Pieces -- Line(lb) -- Lure(oz) - Action - Power - Handle
TWFR854C ----- 7' 1'' ------ 1 ---- 10-20 ---- 3/8-3/4 -- Fast -- Heavy - 178
I shouldn't care so much, but I just love that there is a frog on the rod! 


Is this a good rod?

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NewbreedFishing said:


> if i could add one piece of advice. i would wait until winter-early spring and check Tackle Warehouse for sales and older model clearances. they also place alot of rods up after ICAST that were used for display. You not goin to be froggin in November unless your headed to Florida.
> good luck with whatever u choose


They put some out now: *G. Loomis Rep Sample Casting Rods*
http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/G_Loomis_Rep_Sample_Casting_Rods/descpage-GLIC.html
They don't have a TWFR854C listed.


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