# Muskingum River Limbliners



## mastercatman

So, I'm writing this because I need to vent! I have been fishing the Muskingum pretty heavily since the conclusion of turkey season with little success and no big flatheads. I fished last year a really good portion with no real success either. Last year, I blamed the high water conditions and wrote things off. I am definitely not a newbie to flatheads, but the water I am fishing is new to me. If there are flatheads around in a river, catching them is usually not a problem for me, aside from the average wait times you expect while chasing flatheads. I am fishing the Stockport and Mcconnelsville pools of the Muskingum. Yesterday, while on the river, I could not help but notice all of the limblines in the trees EVERYWHERE! There was also a boat with a few guys out setting lines with pink tape to mark limbs. That darn pink tape was on a heck of a lot of trees from those guys! Later in the evening, I happened by a few guys fishing in Mcconnelsville. I asked them how their day was going and quickly struck up a conversation. One guy said they caught some nice flatheads at a local paylake the other night....I was already ready to end the conversation without getting into a heated debate. Before I parted ways, the guy mentioned speaking to another guy at the paylake who claimed to have brought 1,000lbs of fish to the paylake last week!!! I politely stated my disapproval and told him how my past two seasons on that section of river have gone and parted ways with them.
I continued to fish last night and a shorter night tonight without a single run on the best baits in the best water I could find. 
Before I get flamed for anything, I am aware the cold front may have shut things down a bit this weekend, but have been skunked plenty in prime conditions as well. I am also aware that not all limbliners and trotliners keep their fish and/or sell them to paylakes. I also hear of occasional large fish being taken, so I know there are some fish there. However, it is hard to stomach the thought that I could be wasting my time in water that holds VERY FEW large flatheads as a result primarily from poaching happening right before my eyes. Then to top things off, I got to read the post that stated a guy has a freezer full of flatheads and continues to catch and keep any and every flathead 30lbs or less.....for what is beyond me.
I feel as though, I'm at my wits end. I catch 20-30+lb flats with some regularity in other sections of the river, but not here!
Sorry for the long read, I had to vent a little even though I know many of us have been down this road before on this forum!
I just wish there were more that could be done to eliminate the poaching on our waterways and end paylakes for good. I am sick and tired of not catching fish in what should be prime hotspots, but instead I'm searching for the needle in the haystack at this point it seems. I for one, am working my way into a position to make some real changes. I'll be graduating this week from college and just scored an interview with ODNR as a fish tech. Unfortunately, the job is not a guarantee and I'll need to be a few promotions above a fish tech to have much say in how we regulate and enforce our fisheries laws. It'll be a while!
Any input is appreciated for those who would like to add anything here. How about some ideas on how we could propose further changes to current regulations?


----------



## Guest

what is not only sad, but a recurring illness in our society today is greed. i think this is the underlying problem you are seeing. to many folks have that 'all about me' attitude and that no one else matters. i remember guys at pymatuning bragging about keeping 400-500 walleyes in a season, and while legal, and while the lake is stocked, i always wondered what motivated them to count and to keep so many. one has to eventually ask, how much is enough? i'm sorry you had to experience what a lot of us older guys have for years, but just remember that for every selfish outdoorsman, there are probably ten or more who care. move forward with your career and set your sights on making the change that is badly needed. good luck.


----------



## mastercatman

Thanks Rapman. It is comforting to know that so many of us do in fact care about our fisheries. However, I find myself astounded when talking to many locals in this area at the things I hear. I was approached by a fellow student a couple of years ago who openly announced to the classmates that he could get us $2.50 a pound for flatheads over 20lbs selling them to a local paylake. Angrily, I told him that my flats all go back to where they came from and we shared some words which in my earlier years would have resulted in a busted jaw for him. I have too much to lose by losing my cool at this point, but I just couldn't believe all that I had just heard. Then, last year, a friend talked me into buying goldfish from catfish island nearby. While there buying bait, the owner stated that he would be interested in buying flatheads that we caught from private waters! Seriously, how many flatheads could actually come from private waters enough to supply his needs! Against my will, I kept my mouth shut and told him that we were fishing public waters and we couldn't help him. This area is economically deprived in general and I can understand the lure of easy money. Personally, I cannot put a price on the experience of catching flatheads from their natural haunts and knowing that releasing those fish will maintain the odds of another great experience on the water. 
I know there are many folks who limbline/trotline for fun and it has been a part of great outdoor experiences for many over the years. However, it has been a tool for illegal trade and in an increasing manner. I think one of two options should be taken into consideration; either consider making these methods illegal or regulating them more closely with better enforcement. It should also be illegal to sell any native sportfish species regardless of water bodies in which they originated without having a propagators license and verifiable paperwork to accompany sales of these species. You won't hear me promote government regulation often as we have too much of it already. Though, I believe our fish and game should always be regulated due to the wanton disregard for the resources which has been prevalent throughout our history. One thing is for sure, if it were bass going into paylakes, something would be in place to reduce the effects of exploiting a fishery. Bass though, even trophy ones, are a more quickly renewable resource compared to trophy flatheads.

I know I'm long winded, just covering all my bases guys!


----------



## cattin15

Personally im behind you 100%. Something has to be done

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Guest

plan your attack (changes) slowly. keeping your mouth shut at this point is prudent. document what you see, what you hear and what you experience. it may take years to build your case, but if well established, you may indeed be sitting in the right place to make your changes. without young folks like you with a conscience, we, as a society, may further devolve into that cancer that is consuming us called greed and apathy. keep the fires burning and one day you will be rewarded.


----------



## KatKing34

Great postings by all! I too have fished the muskingum for years and have seen a huge decline in fish catching rates. Spots that used to produce on a regular basis are dead do to over harvesting of trophy fish. The amount of bank lines is rediculas. Almost every over hanging limb or tree is guaranteed to have a bank line on it. Good luck with ur job and making the necessary changes far over due! 


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Guest

decades ago, in the dark of the night, in a situation like this, i may have cut lines, but not so sure i would do so these days. lol


----------



## mastercatman

rapman said:


> decades ago, in the dark of the night, in a situation like this, i may have cut lines, but not so sure i would do so these days. lol


The thought definitely crossed my mind! Seeing as it is legal practice to do so, provided the lines are properly tagged, I didn't want to end up on the wrong side of the law. It wouldn't look good going into an interview with something like that on my record! Also, being in a canoe and around several riverside camps, I wouldn't want to take my chances with being caught by the limbliners myself. You never know what folks are capable of nowadays, aside from the legal issues involved.


----------



## mastercatman

Also, for the record: I am not against keeping any fish and harvest my fair share of panfish and eyes' with the occasional flathead or two under 10 lbs. Over the years, I have become more mindful of what I take home to eat and only take what I can use in the near future. 

My father(lake Erie perch fisherman), is one who will take all he can catch and to this day has multiple pounds of perch from years ago, while continuing to harvest more. Reasoning with him about it, is not possible. He would rather take the fish to waste rather than waste the fuel to take no fish. Unfortunately, there are plenty of guys out there like him who catch and take many different species in this manner. It is a ridiculous mentality which is greatly flawed and creates waste from a valuable resource.

Just like Afellure12 seeing the jugliners on Hoover Res. running dozens of jugs since March. Maybe they're not keeping their catches and maybe they are, the truth is told when a trend showing a lack of productivity is identified. Who needs several dozen jug lines for any reason? It sounds more like work at that point which would lead me to believe that the best interests of the fishery are not being served by those guys. I cannot wrap my head around the need for greed.


----------



## pendog66

And yet we get destroyed on this site for being protective of spots.... Sorry to hear about the limb liners. I read a article not too long ago about all the pay lakes and commercial fishing. It basically called all of us CPR guys suckers for not keeping or selling fish....


Im gonna try to stay out of this conversation. My stats on this website over the past 7 years show where i stand on this subject. Hopefully things change but i dont see it happening anytime soon...


----------



## Guest

definitely, stay legal. a slight blemish now makes your argument in the future that much harder. yes, it is hard to get some to change their minds about limiting their catch. especially if they were schooled in fish as a food procurement activity.


----------



## Salmonid

Ill agree with all the prior statement, we on the Ohio River in the Markland pool ( cinci area) have seen a HUGE decrease in flatheads ove rthe last 5 years and coincidently , at the same time a HUGE increase of commercial fishermen with hoop and trotlines. out of about 15 trips down to the area last year, I managed 1 measely 12" flattie in my boat and that included many tournaments with nary a flathead taken by many of the best cat guys in the region. Anyways, I was wading a stretch of Ohio brush Creek about 15 years ago and over a 1.5 mile stretch, saw litterally several hundred limb lines, none marked, and almost drowned on 1 of about a dozen bank to bank trotlines that snagged my boot laces in about 5 feet of water, really one of the scariest incidents I ever was involved with in 30+ years of wading. It wasnt hard to figure out that there wasnt any catfish in that stretch.....

Salmonid


----------



## jessmr

Yep, thats my neighbor stocking fish.... Makes me sick. He also does the limblines too. They should definitely put a limit on flatheads, and some stricter regulations.... I never knew people actually sold cats to pay lakes, turns my stomach thinking of all this. Who is gonna start the petition? I will gladly sign! So anyways, with reading this, I was just thinking, not to start a debate, just an honest question from someone who never had done it. I am one who always releases my fish, can't stand the taste of them, but I understand when people do keep a few for dinner here and there. But what is the point of using a limbline if you are not going to keep your fish? I like the anticipation of waiting for that hit on the line, the great conversations with friends all night, and most importantly, setting the hook and fighting to being him in! With a limbline, most of that fun is gone, isn't it?


----------



## FISHIN216

I agree with you....just one question...when a catfish takes a land/limb/trotline don't they end up swallowing the hook?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## mastercatman

Jessmr, folks like you is exactly why I brought this up. We have new members and guests all the time who may not be aware of the problem. I know this topic has brewed on here several times before and fortunately it has created awareness of the issue. You're right, I would consider trotlines/juglines/limblines, less sporting than catching a fish on rod and reel. It's even less sporting for a paylaker to catch these fish in a small pond after they've been legally removed and illegally sold!

Salmonid, that would be terrifying to get hung up on a trotline by the bootlaces in 5 ft of flowing water! I can only imagine an experience like that! Glad to see you're still with us.

Pendog, why stay out of it? I know it seems redundant, but I'm trying to keep this flowing and your input is just as valuable as anyone else here on this forum.

As ethical sportsmen, it is our duty to raise and maintain awareness of such issues. I alone, cannot do it all and as often as the topic comes up, we should all be willing to "pitch in" to some degree. Even a simple comment of support for the cause and/or a petition signature is appreciated. Our fisheries depend on the actions of folks like us to maintain quality fisheries we may all enjoy for years to come. 

Another member suggested inspecting lines for proper identification (as required by Ohio law), when lines without proper tags attached are found, photograph and report them to the ODOW county officers. Maintain a personal record of observations and how many reports you have filed. Eventually, enforcement will be "ramped up" if enough reports are made and the problem is made overwhelmingly apparent to the enforcement agency. Honestly, I feel this is our best recourse to "get things moving a little faster". Many of you see these lines all the time, how hard is it to motor over and check out a line for legal requirements and making a call to report violations? I'm going to make it a point to do so myself from now on. Be discreet and don't vandalize, just get the information, report it, and move on. "The squeaky wheel gets the oil", it's time we get a little noisier I guess!


----------



## mastercatman

FISHIN216 said:


> I agree with you....just one question...when a catfish takes a land/limb/trotline don't they end up swallowing the hook?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I can't say for sure. Though, the few I have seen hooked on limblines were in the mouth and not swallowed. I assume the short, stout lines set the hook fairly quick when the fish strikes. I'm sure plenty of fish do end up gut hooked though too.


----------



## cattin15

There are many people with you man. Maybe if dnr is seeing all these illegal fish sold to lakes they can just put an everything over 35" c and r? Is this a crazy request?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## mastercatman

cattin15 said:


> There are many people with you man. Maybe if dnr is seeing all these illegal fish sold to lakes they can just put an everything over 35" c and r? Is this a crazy request?


That request wouldn't be likely considered. I believe that one fish of that length per angler is reasonable. Especially considering that few catfish anglers overall will keep a fish of that size. 
If I were going to adjust any regulations directly to the fish, it would be a statewide limit for each species.
I don't understand why they decided only lakes under 700 acres needed a 6 fish limit and only on channel catfish.
I would extend that regulation to all water bodies for all species of catfish (except bullheads) and maybe fewer for blues and flatheads (3 under 35" would be reasonable) which would be meatier anyways.
The goal of our fisheries agency is not to limit opportunity by limiting take unless a specific problem arises. 
Protecting only fish over 28" or 35" still doesn't help fish get to that size. I was very happy to see the regulations added, but they fall short of the mark. 
Our real problem is enforcement of laws already in place though. Laws don't mean a thing if they aren't enforced. That's where we come in by aiding enforcement by reporting violations. If enough people are reporting often, you'll see changes. Our new wildlife restitution laws could really affect the illegal paylake suppliers if we can get them in the spotlights. The paylakes are protected unfortunately by claiming ignorance to the source of their fish. Take out the suppliers at the source!


----------



## Predator225

Very good post, Mastercatman! I used to make several trips down to the Muskingum a few years ago for flats, over time the fishing became poorer and poorer. And if there are any catmen from the Scioto River area, didn't the same thing happen over there? All of a sudden a bunch of paylakes pop up, then the fishing in the rivers / creeks goes to crap. We once stopped for bait at Catfisherman's Paradise cuz we knew they sold bullheads, in conversation with the kid working, he told us they would pay us $5 a piece for any flatheads we brought them.
Fortunately, up here in northeast Ohio, we haven't been subject to any of this...yet; but then again, we have fewer waters with flatheads in them. It doesn't help, though, when one of the guys running one of the baitshops tells everyone that if they catch one, make sure they don't put it back cuz they eat all the panfish - whatever. Like someone mentioned below - God forbid it were bass or walleye!


----------



## cattin15

Just like law enforcement does with drug trafficking! Find the source and eliminate the problem. People need to report. As fisherman thats the most we can do. But if you.suspect someone breaking the law can you still report them so a wildlife officer will check them?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## jjshbetz11

I agree whole heartily with the rest of the posts, CPR!!!!!!! Honestly what's the point of your not gonna be there for the fight? How could you not want somebody else to have that kind of satisfaction and excitement of catching a once in a lifetime fish? How can you not appreciate the age and rawness of life that fish went through to get that size just to carve it up or sell it? Greed is a rope tugged by many!!!!! Continue the good fight my man!!!! I only hope one day my boys will be able to hook into the same fish I chased and fought, sadly this is becoming a dream tether than reality.
Really is f ' in sad

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Fisherman 3234

You know it seems to be happening to all of the rivers, and not just a few problem spots. I think everyone has seen a decline in big flats and blues all around the state. Something has to be done or at least a 'serious' study on the decline of fish over 30 lbs.


----------



## pendog66

Pendog said:


> Because it seems everytime i get into threads like these, the idiots who know nothing about the subject come in to stir the pot. And theres no point in new regulations on Flatheads. The Poachers are breaking the law now, whats going to stop them from breaking another. ITS NOT THE LAWS- ITS THE ENFORCEMENT
> 
> These trophy fish being taken out of the lakes and rivers cant be grown over night. 10-20-30 and 40 year old fish are being starved to death in mud puddles so somebody can make money.


----------



## Fisherman 3234

100% Agreed.


----------



## mastercatman

Pendog, you're absolutely correct, this site is full of folks with differing opinions on the subject. Some are more well informed than others, it's the nature of the beast! LOL

I agree wholeheartedly that enforcement is the key to success. This begins with promoting awareness like I said and get other fishermen involved in actively reporting illegal set-lines of any style. 
I'm confident, that if enough reports are made from wherever you fish, the problem will not be ignored by our wildlife officers. They will set up in areas where illegal activity is occurring and at the very least nab guys for not tagging their set-lines properly. It is likely, an officer(s) would follow a boat checking these lines and not make contact until they have accrued as much evidence as possible. It would be nice to see them start nabbing guys at the end of their runs with a boatload of large flatheads putting them well over their limits or.....following them to the paylakes and kill two birds with one stone! It can happen and we can help it along. We're obviously all seeing a continual drop in the quality of fishing. It's almost as though many of us have become complacent and b!+ch about it here, but how many of us have ever made any number of attempts to report violations? I know some have, but it's tough being the only guy or two being heard from a particular location who becomes easy for an officer to ignore. However, if a larger number of us actually make legitimate and numerous reports, we will not be ignored. Many people forget, especially the younger crowd, that we are their (ODNR) constituency. If there is a big enough problem they'll address it.

Will it solve all our problems....probably not, you'll always have lawbreakers, but we can probably put a heck of a dent in the supply chain with enough effort. 
I do also think a few regulation adjustments as mentioned previously would be beneficial providing there is enforcement to back them up.


----------



## mastercatman

For those of you whom are not familiar with the regulations concerning set-lines of any style, here is a link to the regulations page covering the topic. Now, familiarize yourself with the regulations that pertain to the areas you fish. 
http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/fishing_setlines.aspx

Second, be sure you are reporting actual violations on active sets! The boy who cried wolf too many times was eventually ignored! Most set-lines I have encountered are in violation simply by not being tagged with the proper information. This would allow a poacher to run multiple lines without traceability. Check a line or two discreetly, to see if they're baited or take note of a shaking limb/jug/line to indicate a hooked fish. Take note of how many lines you see if you can. Often, slob poachers will leave old lines hang and these will likely result in a dead end as far as enforcement is concerned. Be sure of your location and be as specific and accurate about any information you report. Also, many of us have digital cameras nowadays, pictures may also be helpful information to collect. Here is a list of wildlife officers and their phone numbers by county: http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wil...ault/contactsofficers/tabid/7004/Default.aspx
Find the county(s) you fish and put the name and number of that wildlife officer in your cell phone. If you're unsure about the exact county, you may also report violations on the the Ohio TIP(Turn In a Poacher) line 1-800-POACHER. EXPECT to leave a voice mail in either case. Unless you provide all necessary information in the voice mail, if you don't receive return contact within 24 hours or so, contact the district law enforcement supervisors. Report observed violations as immediately as possible!

Be prudent, be discreet, be accurate, and let's get this ball rolling as it is long overdue! Let's be heard!


----------



## Fisherman 3234

You know, a good news story, about the habitual illegal activities around certain paylakes,(i.e. the illegal sales of fish, mistreatment of the fish, mortality rates of fish, and other illegal activities) could catch the right person's attention. 10 TV news, NBC 4, heck why not Dateline or 60 minutes???


----------



## mastercatman

I would like to thank the members whom have been supportive of this matter. Several of you have sent PM's showing support and appreciation. 
For those whom have not replied, I hope you can find the will to help bring about the changes we desperately need in many areas of the state where illegal activities have diminished the quality of fishing. Some of you may also believe the effort is futile, I believe it is not a futile effort. It just takes enough people who care, to take a few minutes of their time and help make a difference. It makes a whole lot more sense than sitting around complaining amongst ourselves about it waiting for things to change or for someone else to take the necessary action.
I sure as heck believe the fishing can be a lot better in many areas given time and that we don't let our guard down. There's only one officer per county and they can only pursue issues that are brought to their attention (especially when they receive multiple reports).

Fisherman3234, if you can help make that happen, more power to you my friend! It certainly wouldn't hurt and it might make at least a few guys reconsider their actions. Most will have to be caught!


----------



## catfish454life

Hi all I'm not new to ogf just finally signed up. I fish alot of southeast lakes tappan use to be my main lake. But the last 2-3 year the numbers have dropped to the point where its not even worth putting in the time there. Its sad at one time I could get a few in the 40lb range now 20lbs is good for that lake with a 30lber every once in a blue moon. Something has to be done about these scum raping our water ways. So if I can help in any way let me know.


----------



## pendog66

catman i will help where i can. Im going under the knife soon so i will have a lot of free time on my hands


----------



## katfish

For the guys who have had paylake operators offer to buy fish,
I would definately call the poacher tipline and report. For the fellas
observing illegal limblines, a report might be ignored but you never know.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Law enforcement once approached me and asked if I knew anything about
hundreds of limblines being cut down. I suggested that possibly they were a hindrance to navigation---hoping they would take notice of how many limblines were actually set.

I doubt that limbliners can make much of an effect on flathead populations.
Weather and habitat are more likely suspects. I do believe that limblines, jugs, and trotlines have some adverse effect.

The tipline can work to your benefit if you make the call. If you are too timid to report illegal limblines then you will never know if the DNR will respond.


----------



## mastercatman

Thanks again guys! If anyone wants to help, like I've laid out, keep the information handy and make accurate legitimate reports. Also, as Katfish stated, you cant be too timid to make a report.

Katfish, I respect and agree with everything you stated except I do believe the set-liners do have a large impact on adult flathead populations. Don't get me wrong, there are many smaller flatheads. However, it's hard to imagine many large fish in a stretch of river where limblines hang from a tree every 10 yards. I know of too many people in my past, plus others I've observed on the water whom can and will keep every flathead they catch, regardless of size. Think of all the river camps along the Muskingum. I've been to several of them at one time or another and there are a lot of folks in those places who take a lot of flatheads. Now, couple that with a hungry paylake industry, poor economy, uneducated people, and you have a recipe for strong population reductions on trophy fisheries. While it is not limited to rivers by any stretch of the imagination, I believe rivers lend themselves to being a little easier in terms of finding fish and removing large numbers has a greater impact.


----------



## bigdogsteve-o

great thread! Pendog and i have been fishing for 10 years together and the fishing has gotten worse weight wise. Still a lot of dinks but the 30-40 lb fish are almost gone in the GMR


----------



## sea squatch

Mastercatman, It is great to see somebody voiceing their opinion publicly with action in mind. I am by no means a cat fisherman ,in fact the only flat head i have ever caught was off of a house boat in Dale Hollow Tenn. It was there that i learned of the "limb line" for my father was driving the boat under some trees and I was snaged and almost pulled from the boat. It was at this point that we realized the unbelievable amount of lines ,just about every tree off the main passes. Seemed kind of rediculless. I grew up on lake Erie catching perch walleye white bass ....you know. I remember when there was no limit on perch. We would always catch a bucket ( 5 gal) and head on home. I asked my father why do we always stop when the fish are on fire. We go to the ramp and fellows had piles of perch in their boats,why cant we.we eat all our fish. He said you have to leave some for seed. ? I thought he was crazy. But it burned into me like a hot coal. Thirty years later I live by that simple saying. Its so true. I personally feel that there is too many people getting away with poaching of both fish and game in this state for what ever reasons. It is a shame ,we all go to game dinners and socialize with new members of our sporting communities and run into the guys that brag of over bagging or maybe an extra buck. I say to these people I have nothing left to say to you! And walk away. Maybe by embarrisment they will reconsider for there is no honer ,pride or reward for being a pig sportsmen. I feel that there should be seasons on all of our fish species in the state of Ohio. Just about every state @ does it, we should also. Because when our natural resources are gone the pigs will be the first ones crying about it,but too ignorant to know why. Hunt , Fish , Be safe, Have fun doing it, And leave some for seed!!!


----------



## Pooka

(First, I have nothing against paylakes or limb lining per-say,, they both can have a legit function.)

The another bad side of paylakes:

Several years back I lived beside a creek that had plenty of chubs and small panfish. Neighborhood fishermen occasionally used it for bait and the local kids got a kick out of the close walk-to fishing.

Then, a catfish paradise clone opened across the river in Ohio, lots of pay outs. The neighborhood ( adult) nare-do-wells discovered this as another way to make money to support their bad habits. But, good bait costs money. Their solution, our creek. In one short summer, before we noticed what was going on, they cleaned it out of everything but the smallest minnows. 4 years later when I moved the creek had still not recovered from that savage raping. 

It is way past time to seriously tighten the regs on paylakes, they are the source of most of the troubles.

Perhaps something like,, nothing but farmed fish at a paylake and all farmed fish tagged for ID. If a paylake wants large fish they can pay fish farms for them instead of using our wildlife dollars( fish) to pad their pockets. 

I know that some folks are trying to organize against paylakes/commercial fishing, perhaps one of these crews could mount a video sting operation? A video or 3 of illegal fish transactions would go a long way toward getting the ball rolling.


----------



## catfish454life

Agreed 10000000000000000000000000 times over


----------



## mastercatman

So, I'm very pleased to see this thread on the home page! This is all going very positively and has become a great discussion. 
SeaSquatch, great post and perspective! "Pig sportsman," is a great way to sum up the trouble makers that claim ranks among us.
Pooka, sorry to hear about your creek, many SE Ohio creeks have had the same fate aside from AMD (Acid mine drainage) impacts. You are correct, there is no reason to speak of limblining and paylakes as all being bad. Legitimate paylakes with farmed fish serve a desirable market, and they do offer great opportunities for folks to catch fish still. All limb-lining is not bad either, in fact for many, it has been a tradition as much a part of summer as anything. 
The fact is that a price and a market has been established on a natural resource. In EVERY case where this has happened in our history, it is the ethical sportsman and ultimately the resource which suffers from the impacts of over harvest.

Think of it this way, if hunting ranch operators could trap large bucks from our hunt-able populations to place in their shooting fences, it would be a major issue. Opportunities to take large bucks would eventually become limited as the market for such operations would demand large numbers that would make seeing a mature buck even less likely than it is already for many. 
The only people having the best opportunity to harvest such great animals would be the hunters who have no connection to what a real hunt really is and remain ignorant to the opportunities they had helped to diminish for others.(Currently most, if not all deer harvested in these operations are farm raised) 

This may seem far fetched to some, but this is what has been happening to many of our large catfish. They are removed from waters that you and I pay the state to manage for us (basically). Fish and game in Ohio is all owned by US (all residents of Ohio) and their management paid for by licensed sportsman (mostly). It should anger many folks to know that we are being robbed, right under our noses. Some of you know of these illegal activities going on all the time, yet you sit idly by, and just let it happen or are a part of it already. (Currently most, if not all large blue and flathead catfish in these operations are harvested from public waters)

It burns me to see paylake pictures of fish that were illegally sold to a paylake with some yahoo posing with a soon to be trophy corpse from our waters. Sadly, I can assume that many paylakers either don't know or don't care where the fish are coming from and many paylake operators like it this way!
Ohio's paylakes: http://paylaker.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oh&action=display&thread=18
Some paylake fish:http://www.lakebutlerfishing.com/Pictures.html
A few fish in really poor shape there! :C


----------



## pendog66

geeze some of those fish are disgustingly under weight


----------



## laynhardwood

According to the odnr catfish don't spawn well in waters less than 600 acres a lot of small lakes that are stocked with channel cats also have pipes the odnr has placed that they hope will attract spawning catfish kinda like hollow trees do in big rivers 


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## Flathead76

If you know for a fact that these lakes are buying fish you should save a good fish in a water tub. Call your county dnr officer and see if he would like to take a ride with you to see if they would be interested in buying the fish. Then the officer could cut off at the scorce. Then you could release the fish back where you got it,


----------



## Flathead76

pendog66 said:


> geeze some of those fish are disgustingly under weight


Those fish are starving.


----------



## buckeyebowman

Predator225 said:


> Very good post, Mastercatman! I used to make several trips down to the Muskingum a few years ago for flats, over time the fishing became poorer and poorer. And if there are any catmen from the Scioto River area, didn't the same thing happen over there? All of a sudden a bunch of paylakes pop up, then the fishing in the rivers / creeks goes to crap. We once stopped for bait at Catfisherman's Paradise cuz we knew they sold bullheads, in conversation with the kid working, he told us they would pay us $5 a piece for any flatheads we brought them.
> Fortunately, up here in northeast Ohio, we haven't been subject to any of this...yet; but then again, we have fewer waters with flatheads in them. It doesn't help, though, when one of the guys running one of the baitshops tells everyone that if they catch one, make sure they don't put it back cuz they eat all the panfish - whatever. Like someone mentioned below - God forbid it were bass or walleye!


I'm not so sure about that. One day last Summer my brother in law and I were fishing at Mosquito. Lately, the up and coming fishery at Skeeter has been for large catfish. I don't know if they are flatheads or shovelheads, but I've seen pics, and they are really big and just fabulously, beautifully ugly!
Anyhow, we drift by a jug and next thing we know here comes the guy to check his line. Let me say right now that I have no idea if the man was doing anything illegal. He started to pull his jug line, and I swear every hook had a really nice channel cat on it! No huge flathead/shovelhead cats, but he must have put 150 to 200lbs of channels in his boat! 

I'm primarily a walleye/crappie/bass fisherman, in that order. But, I've never been one to turn up my nose at a nice size channel cat. A bona fide game fish and tasty to boot. But this seemed a little extreme to me. We also became aware of quite a few guys getting busted at Pymatuning last year. We saw Johnny Law out in force, and they were nailing quite a few for over limit/under size on walleye. We talked to one of the rangers and he said they caught a boat with 3 guys and nearly 150 walleyes! Sheesh! If I am fortunate enough to limit out on walleyes, I feel lucky and thankful and I STOP!! He told us quite a few of the offenders were of a certain religious persuasion that fancies full beards and wide brimmed hats.


----------



## backupbait

@ Mastercatman: Great thread!!! Could not agree with you more!!!


----------



## black swamp

i work for wildlife also an agree with you these guys are ruining things for all of us ban the paylakes


----------



## ducky152000

Flathead76 said:


> If you know for a fact that these lakes are buying fish you should save a good fish in a water tub. Call your county dnr officer and see if he would like to take a ride with you to see if they would be interested in buying the fish. Then the officer could cut off at the scorce. Then you could release the fish back where you got it,


That is a great idea but ask the warden if he would be willing to go along with you before you do this


----------



## livtofsh

been fishing the ohio river for several yrs have noticed my success rate goin down down down well i talked to a guy that owns a marina on the ohio and now i no why... he said they are taking thousands of lbs of big cats out everyday said it makes you sick to see what there taking.... commercial fisherman with ky. license???? he was correct i saw them loading a truck full of fish that they netted... man its sad to see them net truckloads of fish like that one guy told me there was a guy who had a cage with over 1000 lbs of catfish in it and the river level went down before he could retrieve it and they just died sad sad sad ill probley stop fishing the river because cant afford the drive to fish in the dead sea and i will never give a pay lake a f n dime of my money they should all be shut down in my opinion


----------



## black swamp

i agree brother


----------



## lennyzrx

rapman said:


> decades ago, in the dark of the night, in a situation like this, i may have cut lines, but not so sure i would do so these days. lol


same here. I still might consider it!


----------



## mastercatman

Originally Posted by Flathead76 View Post
If you know for a fact that these lakes are buying fish you should save a good fish in a water tub. Call your county dnr officer and see if he would like to take a ride with you to see if they would be interested in buying the fish. Then the officer could cut off at the source. Then you could release the fish back where you got it.
ducky152000 said:


> That is a great idea but ask the warden if he would be willing to go along with you before you do this


It sounds good, but if you state that the flathead was taken out of private waters then the paylake buyer is in the "loophole". However, if you pretend to slip up and state it came out of public waters to see if they'll still buy, then you may have a case. I'm sure you could nail a few greedy guys this way.
It is impossible to shut down many of the paylakes without making it illegal to purchase the fish in question. 
It is also impossible to farm large catfish in the quantities necessary to be profitable.
All methods used to harvest large catfish should be analyzed to identify ways to limit legal take. There is no reason to outlaw these methods outright, considering some folks may run a few set-lines to put a few fish on the table within reason, I see nothing wrong with that. It is the fact that many areas allow very liberal use of these methods which encourages over harvest by otherwise legal sportsmen and the paylake suppliers.


----------



## Silent Mike

would fishing a pay lake in numbers, taking home your limit and releasing them back in the wild do anything or would it do nothing but keep the pay lake in business?


----------



## pendog66

Silent Mike said:


> would fishing a pay lake in numbers, taking home your limit and releasing them back in the wild do anything or would it do nothing but keep the pay lake in business?


With how dirty and Disease ridden the lakes are it could screw the rivers more then they already are... And they would still be getting your money which is the sole reason of having a lake


----------



## mastercatman

Pendog is right, the lakes are likely a haven for disease due to the lack of water influx and heavy stocking rates. As nice as it would be to return those fish to a favorite stretch of river, it may do more harm than good.
Continuing to fish paylakes with these large catfish only perpetuates the issue.
.


----------



## bkr43050

Silent Mike said:


> would fishing a pay lake in numbers, taking home your limit and releasing them back in the wild do anything or would it do nothing but keep the pay lake in business?


It would do more than keep the paylake in business. It would land you in jail or at least with a hefty fine. It is illegal to transplant fish in to any public waterways, and for the reasons stated above.


----------



## Silent Mike

good to know! ive only fished a pay lake once in my life anyway


----------



## bkr43050

Silent Mike said:


> good to know! ive only fished a pay lake once in my life anyway


I was not making that statement referring to fish from a paylake not being legal to transplant to another body of water. That is true of all public waters. It is unlawful to move any fish from one body of water to another. Really the only place that I know that this does not apply is a private lake/pond which you can do as you please.


----------



## Silent Mike

bkr43050 said:


> I was not making that statement referring to fish from a paylake not being legal to transplant to another body of water. That is true of all public waters. It is unlawful to move any fish from one body of water to another. Really the only place that I know that this does not apply is a private lake/pond which you can do as you please.


well thats good to know anyway....so you mean something like catch a fish from the scioto and move it to to hoover is unlawful


----------



## bkr43050

Silent Mike said:


> well thats good to know anyway....so you mean something like catch a fish from the scioto and move it to to hoover is unlawful


Exactly. That is to minimize the risk of disease transmission as well as introducing undesired species to a water system.


----------



## M.Magis

Actually, that&#8217;s not entirely correct. It&#8217;s only illegal if a person is to *introduce* a fish species into a body of water. If that species already exists, it&#8217;s not illegal. That&#8217;s the reason it&#8217;s legal to catch bluegill from one place, and use them for bait in another, just as an example.


----------



## Silent Mike

M.Magis said:


> Actually, thats not entirely correct. Its only illegal if a person is to *introduce* a fish species into a body of water. If that species already exists, its not illegal. Thats the reason its legal to catch bluegill from one place, and use them for bait in another, just as an example.


this makes a little more sense to me


----------



## bkr43050

M.Magis said:


> Actually, thats not entirely correct. Its only illegal if a person is to *introduce* a fish species into a body of water. If that species already exists, its not illegal. Thats the reason its legal to catch bluegill from one place, and use them for bait in another, just as an example.


I don't believe you can release the bluegill in any case if they were not caught in that body of water. They are bait at that point and it is illegal to discard of your bait in the lake/river. Just like using goldfish for bait. You can use them in any lake but it is not legal to dispose of unused ones there which would be transplanting the fish. The transporting of fish is a law regardless of species at least that is the way that I have interpreted it from the many, many conversations on the topic. I know this is an area that seems somewhat vague or incomplete in the ODNR regulations. The wording in the regulations does leave it unclear.


> *It is unlawful to transport and introduce any aquatic species (fish, invertebrate, plant) from one body of water to another*


That can be read that it is illegal to transport any species from one body of water to another and that is also illegal to introduce them from one body of water to another. Or it can be read that both "transport and introduce" are inclusive and that you cannot "transport and introduce" them from one body of water to another. I read it as separate and treat the introduction of any fish to another body of water as a no-no because the same concept applies for bait minnows. I cannot find any document stating it but I was thinking that it was illegal to dispose of your unused minnows in the lake. I would love to see a more concise explanation from the DNR on this topic. I have never been able to find it.


I apologize that this does really digress from the original topic. If anyone has any input of this topic it would make for a great discussion in and of itself and not to sidetrack from this thread.


----------



## M.Magis

Weve had quite a few of these discussions over the years. A while back Seevers went to one of the head fellas with the ODNR in Columbus to get the answer. The answer was fish can be moved from one body of water to another, as long as they existed before and youre not *introducing* them. Goldfish dont exist in Ohio water, so they cant be let go. Bluegill and catfish do exist in almost all waters, so they can be. I wish I could find that thread from Rick, but I cant. It could have been on the old site, but I thought it was here.


----------



## nixmkt

Don't like to continue the thread diversion but seems worthwhile for this topic. Here is a link to the best info. that I have seen concerning transporting baitfish. It includes a response from Scott Hale from ODNR. http://www.catfish1.com/forums/printthread.php?t=89080


----------



## M.Magis

Thank you! I've saved that for future reference, as it does seem to come up a few times per year.


----------



## Pooka

*Shamelessly stolen from another board*

Posted this morning,,

"Enough to make you SICK 





Yesterday was not a good day. Worked 10.5 hrs Thursday night and headed to the Ohio as soon as I got off Friday morning. Fished from 8:30am till 4:30 pm- Not one single catfish!! I mean NOTHING!!! Couldn't even get a decent bite. My "Favorite Spots" were showing "Dead Water" on the fish finder. Of course, the comercial fishermen were there all day as well. They were in front of me, behind me and probably under me as well. I was tired, sunburnt to a crisp and down right aggervated. Then I saw the one thing that really set me on fire- The comercial fishermen unloading the boat at the dock. Guys, I've read the posts as most of you have. I've signed the petitions and everything else, but you really won't feel the sickness in your stomach until you've actually seen it with your own eyes as I did-The catfish being loaded in the truck!!! I've never seen so many trophy cats in my whole life!! So big, they could barely lift them!!! One right after another!!! I had no idea that those boats could even hold that many fish (mine would have sank) lol... I would be afraid to even try and estimate how many I saw being unloaded. It was an UNREAL amount. Then of course, they left the truck and trailer at the ramp and took off in the boat to go get even more. And here I sat at the dock, tired, burnt and not one single fish all day. Was I jelous??? Maybe a little, but more sick to my stomach than anything. It got even worse when I began thinking of all the big Blues I've caught and releases over the years- Just so these guys could fill thier nets with them. Every single time I've been to the river this year, the comercial guys have been there too. So, it's not like this is something that just happens every so often. I'm willing to bet they are doing this every day-all day long. There is NO WAY this can go on and NOT effect the catfish population. Considering how much money is being made here, our "Voices" are gonna fall on deaf ears. It's enough to make you wanna sell your boat and just quit. "


----------



## flathunter

In 2008 i found a good hole on the scioto which gave up 5 fish over 40lbs and two over 50lbs.all fish were released..however on one of the big fish another fisherman saw me catch it..the trotliners moved in the next day...it has been four years and i have only caught one flathead over 20lbs from that spot...but everytime i give the location another try i always see at least one boat running a trotline...i have just about gave the sport up, because you cant go anywhere without seeing the liners...in fact i did not even fish last year because it was depressing seeing it...i have went back to this spot agsin this year..prob spent 30hrs fishing it, not one bite..but there has been a boat there running lines all the 30hrs i have fished it...i dont even see the liners catching fish now..but i have heard them complain about where have all the fish gone....makes you sick

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## pendog66

flathunter said:


> In 2008 i found a good hole on the scioto which gave up 5 fish over 40lbs and two over 50lbs.all fish were released..however on one of the big fish another fisherman saw me catch it..the trotliners moved in the next day...it has been four years and i have only caught one flathead over 20lbs from that spot...but everytime i give the location another try i always see at least one boat running a trotline...i have just about gave the sport up, because you cant go anywhere without seeing the liners...in fact i did not even fish last year because it was depressing seeing it...i have went back to this spot agsin this year..prob spent 30hrs fishing it, not one bite..but there has been a boat there running lines all the 30hrs i have fished it...i dont even see the liners catching fish now..but i have heard them complain about where have all the fish gone....makes you sick
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine



Jack if its really that bad in that stretch of river..... Take pictures and report report report! Even the worst game warden is going to get tired of hearing your voice and will check it out!

And on another note i think us GMR guys should make a 4 wheeler crew thread. Went to a hard to reach spot last night and they have been destroying it!!!!


----------



## MrFry

A few years back a friend and I fished local catfish tournaments on the Muskingum. It was a common thing to see 60lbs of fish win the tournaments. A few local die hard catfish guys would get a few 20-30lbers and sometimes a 40+. Over the years the decline of big fish is astounding. Last year the biggest fish caught in a tourney was 13lbs.... So far this year there has been a 23lb flattie caught. My friend did set a few lines for channel cat and got a 37.26lb flattie (which he promptly released after weighing and picture.) That is the largest fish I have heard of up this way for a few years. 

A kid I know said "The guy at Catfish Island will pay $2.00 a pound for anything over 20lbs." It burns me up. He doesnt bring that guy any fish but that isn't the point. 

IMHO even if there were regulations on big flatheads there isnt enough enforcement in the rural areas where they are caught. I have never seen a DNR boat checking people on the Muskingum. Ever. 

I agree that something needs to be done. Thats for sure. I'm going to school for Fish and Wildlife Management. Maybe one day we can get this back on track and help preserve our trophy cats!


----------



## Joey209

MrFry said:


> A few years back a friend and I fished local catfish tournaments on the Muskingum. It was a common thing to see 60lbs of fish win the tournaments. A few local die hard catfish guys would get a few 20-30lbers and sometimes a 40+. Over the years the decline of big fish is astounding. Last year the biggest fish caught in a tourney was 13lbs.... So far this year there has been a 23lb flattie caught. My friend did set a few lines for channel cat and got a 37.26lb flattie (which he promptly released after weighing and picture.) That is the largest fish I have heard of up this way for a few years.
> 
> A kid I know said "The guy at Catfish Island will pay $2.00 a pound for anything over 20lbs." It burns me up. He doesnt bring that guy any fish but that isn't the point.
> 
> IMHO even if there were regulations on big flatheads there isnt enough enforcement in the rural areas where they are caught. I have never seen a DNR boat checking people on the Muskingum. Ever.
> 
> I agree that something needs to be done. Thats for sure. I'm going to school for Fish and Wildlife Management. Maybe one day we can get this back on track and help preserve our trophy cats!


I have been fishing the Muskingum hard for the last 6-7 years and I ALSO have never seen ODNR on the river let alone check boats. Theyre all over the place a couple miles away at Dillon though


----------



## backupbait

Ok everybody, this is our chance to be heard. ODNR is holding an open meeting to hear complaints about the overharvest of trophy catfish to be sold to paylakes. It is being held in Xenia at the district #5 location on August 11th. Their is no time for the meeting yet. Their phone # is 937-372-9261 for more information on meeting and time. Gather as many people as you can and show your support.


----------



## Guest

great job. hope enough of you down in that corner of the state make your voices heard.


----------



## backupbait

This meeting will be Sat Aug 11th from 12pm to 3pm at:
District #5 in Xenia
1076 Old Springfield Pike
937-372-9261

This is no joke!!! We need sport fishermen to show up for this meeting. I have a feeling that there will be a good number of commercial fishermen at this meeting trying to push for Ohio to open up its shore lines for commercial fishermen. If we dont have a good showing this could be very bad. The state is looking for ways of bringing in more revenue and this could be one way they are considering doing it.


----------



## FlatKat

unless they have some sort of liscence isnt it the law for one fish over 35 inches per person per night now?


----------



## throbak

I will be at the Meeting I live in Indiana. But we share the River I am sic of the nets also will be bending the Indiana,s DNR about it ,Today at Spring Mill SP


----------



## backupbait

Yes, that is the current law in Ohio. Ohio also currently does not allow commercial fishing form its side of the Ohio River. However, it is rummored that the commercial fishermen will be at this meeting putting presure on Ohio to open up its side of the river to commercial fishing. The severity of pressure being placed on the Ohio River by commercial fishermen from Nov to June on the Ky side is unreal. 50lb plus flathead are almost a thing of the past and 50lb plus blues are becoming rare. If you can show up for this meeting please do.


----------



## pendog66

FlatKat said:


> unless they have some sort of liscence isnt it the law for one fish over 35 inches per person per night now?


yep. But the problem with netters is they keep everything! 1lb up to 100. Nothing goes back


----------



## mastercatman

I am glad to see this issue being formally addressed and I hope many folks are able to make it out to voice their concerns. Due to my new job, I am not sure what opinions I am able to voice at such a function. However, you all know where I stand anyways. Due to the long distance from Akron and not collecting my first paycheck until September, I won't be able to even make it to Xenia. 
Please post topics of discussion about the meeting, I'll be VERY interested to know how it goes.
Good luck to my fellow anglers, I hope we're heard and proper changes are addressed.


----------



## CarpFreak5328

Been reading this thread for awhile, and i have to say that my friend who grew up on the Muskingum 
river just outside of zansville i think lock 9 said that in the last 7 to eight years the flathead fishing went from out of this world to nothing. Its pretty depressing.


----------



## throbak

Xenia still on ???


----------



## bigcatjoe

Something really needs to be done about this. The amount of abandoned jugs and limblines left, along with the absurd amount of baited jugs and limb lines is ridiculous. In ohio, we're restricted to 2 rods a person at one time for a reason. Why, then, are wr allowed to use so many more jug amd limb lines? It totally defeats the conservation efforts of restricting rod usage. Big catfish are old, and not exactly a renewable resource. If the ohio laws say one flathead over 35 inches per angler, per day, this should be enforced with jug and limbliners too. It makes me sick. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


----------



## pendog66

bigcatjoe said:


> Something really needs to be done about this. The amount of abandoned jugs and limblines left, along with the absurd amount of baited jugs and limb lines is ridiculous. In ohio, we're restricted to 2 rods a person at one time for a reason. Why, then, are wr allowed to use so many more jug amd limb lines? It totally defeats the conservation efforts of restricting rod usage. Big catfish are old, and not exactly a renewable resource. If the ohio laws say one flathead over 35 inches per angler, per day, this should be enforced with jug and limbliners too. It makes me sick.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I would absolutely love it if that was the case. It makes sense, with the rules in place why do they need soo many jugs and hooks on trots.


----------



## dstiner86

On a side note of everything, Ive only fished muskigum once, back when i was about 12 with my grandpa.. that night I pulled out two 20+lbs flatheads, at my age that was the GREATEST feeling ever!

but on topic, u got every right to vent, what they are doing shouldnt be allowed, especially at the extent some will go!


----------

