# Just a Thought



## slashbait

Hunted a farm in geagua county today and saw a hen. We found this farm 2 years ago. At that time there were 2 huge groups of turkeys, 50 birds and probably more.  That year we doubled up easily, could do no wrong. last year hunted it twice and seen no birds but blamed it on fields being planted in wheat, which might be to tall for there likening. This year it’s hay and fields are beautiful but almost no sign? So what I’m getting at is when we shot the last bird there 2 years ago, the farmer called us to advise us his buddy also shot a bird that day , and it had his fresh planted corn seeds in it , and warned us about the green coating on it. That coating was fungicide they put on that seed when they sell it. At that time I looked it up , but all studies were in Canada. Just a thought, you think that practice is major culprit of the decline of turkeys? Kinda funny my only decent spots anymore are big woods around fields that are never planted?


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## DHower08

While it's possible I doubt that is the cause. Our main farm is usually loaded with turkeys. 6 to 8 toms another 6 or so jakes and enough hens for a whorehouse. This year. Theirs one gobble and 2 jakes there and a few hens. Didn't even have the winter flocks we normally do.

It would be nothing to see 50 to 75 turkeys at once gobblers hens jakes etc.... I think predation is one of the biggest factors. Bobcats are becoming increasingly common. Coyotes are running rampant due to low fur prices. Feral cats will kill the polts just to kill them. Racoons get the eggs. 

Basically with no fur value no one is trapping or hunting predators with enough regularity to even put a dent in the predator populations.


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## slashbait

Could be, but it’s wild we’re I’m finding them birds in big woods, it’s loaded with yotes and raccoons


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## DHower08

I'm also hunting a farm currently that has a ton of birds and a ton of coyote and racoons sign. I honestly don't think a turkey is smart enough to avoid a certain food like coated corn.


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## dugworm

No chance.


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## fishkiller

In my opinion one of the problems is the states constant easing of regulations. Afernoon hunting has been expanded several times for both kids & adults, this year it starts the second week of season. Youth season allowing two birds, opening the season on a Saturday, splitting the state into two zones (concentrates hunters on opening & closings more). I also feel that there are a large number of birds killed over bait by bow hunters. I know my opinions will not be popular with some, but selling tags is not always a wise use of a resource.


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## joekacz

fishkiller said:


> In my opinion one of the problems is the states constant easing of regulations. Afernoon hunting has been expanded several times for both kids & adults, this year it starts the second week of season. Youth season allowing two birds, opening the season on a Saturday, splitting the state into two zones (concentrates hunters on opening & closings more). I also feel that there are a large number of birds killed over bait by bow hunters. I know my opinions will not be popular with some, but selling tags is not always a wise use of a resource.


Rumor has it that next season is going to be a 1 bird limit.


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## miked913

Bad weather + ground nesting birds = low bird #'s. Simple the last few springs have been wet and cold, late into the season.

reelylivinsportfishing.com


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## joekacz

I tend to agree with you Mike,as in anything in the wild, survival of the young of the year play's a very large part in huntable or catchable ( walleye,perch) population's.Even a clutch of 10 egg's that successfully hatch mean's nothing until next season if they survive all of the roadblock's for their first year of life,weather,food,predator's and even what part of the state they live in. How's the Buckeye State treating you so far on turkey hunting??


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## fishkiller

This is a widespread problem, nation wide. Yes the weather has played a part, but it is not the only part. Turkey hunting has taken off with hunters like duck hunting & the pressure is tremendous. I got my first turkey tag on OH in 1966 , the change in pressure in the last few years is huge &bird #’s have fallen steadily.


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## miked913

fishkiller said:


> This is a widespread problem, nation wide. Yes the weather has played a part, but it is not the only part. Turkey hunting has taken off with hunters like duck hunting & the pressure is tremendous. I got my first turkey tag on OH in 1966 , the change in pressure in the last few years is huge &bird #’s have fallen steadily.


I hunt on 1100 acres that is surrounded by 6000 more that is barely hunted, those # are way down without a doubt, this is over 10 square miles of private managed area. So supposed more hunter theory doesn't apply. We're at any 1 time running about 30 cameras and just not seeing polts like we used to. Not long ago, I would speed hunt and get danger close to a gobbling bird because I knew if I happened to bump him I'd just get on another that was already in ear shot. 

reelylivinsportfishing.com


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## 0utwest

Within the last year where i hunt up here in Geneva the turkey population is way down on our places we hunt and i have thought maybe west nile virus or a parasite of some sort ? I know quite a few years back the west nile killed a lot of hawks and owls .


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## slashbait

Google neonicotinoid and wild turkeys. Neonicotinoid is the name of the fungaside coating on corn seed


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## Mickey

I go to Quail Hollow Park just outside Hartville every day to walk and fill the bird feeders. Used to see turkeys more days than not, in the park and in the surrounding fields. Lots of hens and polts in the Spring. Haven't seen a one in over a year. Racoons have pretty much taken the place over. There are so many I think a bounty might be a good idea.


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## turkeyt

Last spring i watched 3 hens and 15 poults out back in our housing addition. 9 of poults were larger and 8 of them made it and the 6 smaller poults disappeared. If this can happen in a neighborhood where houses are plenty, imagine how many poults are lost out in the country. I would say we’re lucky to have a 20% survival rate with all the critters raiding nests and killing poults.


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## snagless-1

Take up predator hunting.Shoot them when you see them.A friend bow hunts and the coyotes walk under his stand and he does not shoot.Sees less deer last 2 years.Go figure.


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## buckeyebowman

slashbait said:


> Google neonicotinoid and wild turkeys. Neonicotinoid is the name of the fungaside coating on corn seed


Good catch! Neo nicotinoids are banned in Europe, but not here! Guess the farm or pesticide lobby is too strong here. I think the stuff is sprayed around as well. Then you get "drift" and unintended consequences like harm to bees and other pollinating insects. 



0utwest said:


> Within the last year where i hunt up here in Geneva the turkey population is way down on our places we hunt and i have thought maybe west nile virus or a parasite of some sort ? I know quite a few years back the west nile killed a lot of hawks and owls .


I read a study that was done by the Pennsylvania Game Commission that concluded that West Nile was responsible for killing a lot of grouse chicks as well.


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## FOWL BRAWL

joekacz said:


> Rumor has it that next season is going to be a 1 bird limit.



Like always the division is late, this should have happened two years ago, along with ending the fall season also


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## joekacz

FOWL BRAWL said:


> Like always the division is late, this should have happened two years ago, along with ending the fall season also


Like I said its a rumor but it wouldn’t surprise me that if it happens that the price goes up with it.


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## DHower08

joekacz said:


> Rumor has it that next season is going to be a 1 bird limit.


I would support this. Where did you hear it at


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## joekacz

DHower08 said:


> I would support this. Where did you hear it at


With all of this time on my hands of not being able to do anything until I heal I read it somewhere on line but for the life of me I don’t remember where. Hopefully I will come across it again. I need to start taking that Prevagin for remembering stuff. The Golden Years are more like the rust years. LOL Probably should’ve not said anything that’s why I said it was a rumor.


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## bobk

joekacz said:


> Rumor has it that next season is going to be a 1 bird limit.


I thought it was already approved for public land.


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## bobk

Ohio Wildlife Council approves hunting regulations for 2021-22 - The Beacon


The Ohio Wildlife Council approved all 2021-22 hunting regulations during its regularly scheduled meeting last Wednesday, April 7, according to the Ohio




www.thebeacon.net


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## DHower08

I personally would like to see it 1 bird state wide not just on public


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## FOWL BRAWL

joekacz said:


> With all of this time on my hands of not being able to do anything until I heal I read it somewhere on line but for the life of me I don’t remember where. Hopefully I will come across it again. I need to start taking that Prevagin for remembering stuff. The Golden Years are more like the rust years. LOL Probably should’ve not said anything that’s why I said it was a rumor.



Rumor or not it shouldn't take us hunters to notice a problem with a managed resource then have to wait a couple years for a reaction from the so called professionals.

Sorry for the rant but this is their MO for just about any problem we have seen with fish or game.

They surely like to tell us about the success stories, but hey that's what generates license dollars


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## Carpn

Farming in general is way different now than it was in the turkey heyday years . Between herbicide and pesticide and fertilizer add in how many fencerows are completely removed . These fields are a monoculture with very little waste grain left . Many are plowed to dirt to preserve their sterile seed base and reduce weed seed .

This does not explain lower bird numbersinareas with large tracks of timber and minimal farming . 

You are correct on the talk of a statewide 1 bird limit . I know Mike Rex has mentioned this somewhere . 

I am torn . I do see lower overall bird numbers the last couple of years . But the selfish side of me would like to see it stay at two . Just about 3 or 4 yrs ago we were coming off some great hatches and there were birds . It appears that there are alot of jakes in the areas that I have been hunting so I am hopeful for alot of 2 yr old fun longbeards next yr . 

. 

I had heard Mike Rex mention a statewide one bird limit as a possibility . Guess we will see how that progresses .


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## joekacz

First of all I wanna thank bobk for finding the one bird limit publishing,I cancelled my order of Prevagin. Wheww! I knew I read it somewhere. The one bird limit doesn’t bother me other than it does show that there is a problem and maybe it should extend to the private sector but not being a land owner I would not want to infringe on their rights. You can extend your season just by calling for youth and novice turkey hunters. I personally enjoy that more than bagging one myself and I’m sure that there’s a lot of you out there that feel the same. At least something is being done.


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## ranger487

I've been following this thread and would be 100 percent on one bird and they could even do away with the fall season and that would be fine also. I hunt private land that does not get to much pressure other than a few of us and its minimal. The numbers are down on private land as well for some reason hunted 2 days and heard a few Sat and none on Sunday. Seen more deer in 2 days than Turkey and that was not the case in the past.


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## bobk

I have turkey hunted 5 times so far this year on my property. All have been done with a buddy and I have a camera and no gun. My numbers are down so I won't kill a bird. I don't need to kill a bird to enjoy the hunt. I've said this for many many years. Whether deer, grouse or turkey I will do my part to control the species and not rely on the odnr. Selfish hunters have gotten us into part of this problem. Too many people can't wait to post that they tagged out on such and such animal. Self control goes a long ways with wildlife. 

As of today I think you can hunt all day. Not a fan of that right now either with the numbers down. So next year 1 turkey on public land due to the numbers decline per the odnr "experts". Hunt all day for the next 3 weeks...... make any sense? We all need to do our part.


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## Muddy

The turkey population on the properties that I hunt is down this year. I have wanted to go back to a 1 bird limit for years. The pheasant population is way down this year as well. I usually see and hear pheasants every day in the spring around our farm. I haven't seen or heard one since last October. Our fields have been taken out of row crop production and put into CRP. I'm trying to help all the critters out by giving them a happy home.


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## Carpn

I would be curious as too how many hunters actually kill 2 birds each spring ? Can anyone here access that info from prior year harvest records ? 

Also , this problem runs deeper than people killing too many gobblers each spring . The gobblers aren't the ones laying the eggs . If hens were having decent nesting success this wouldn't be an issue .


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## bobk

Carpn said:


> I would be curious as too how many hunters actually kill 2 birds each spring ? Can anyone here access that info from prior year harvest records ?
> 
> Also , this problem runs deeper than people killing too many gobblers each spring . The gobblers aren't the ones laying the eggs . If hens were having decent nesting success this wouldn't be an issue .


That’s true regarding the nesting issues. That kind strengthens the reason to lay off a bit on killing 2 gobblers. I’m not directing my comments at you at all. Each person has the right to kill 2 birds this spring. It’s perfectly legal. I’m just pointing out if the numbers are down and the hatch sucks soon we will be really short on birds in the future. I couldn’t find the number of 2 birds killed per hunter each year. This info is pretty interesting stuff.


https://ohiodnr.gov/static/documents/wildlife/wildlife-management/2020+Spring+Turkey+Report_Final.pdf


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## UNCLEMIKE

And sure enough it looks like a wetter than normal weather pattern for the next 14 days. When do the majority of eggs hatch out? We had a dry April and May is now looking wet. Just bad luck for the hatch I guess.


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## chadwimc

I had four birds gobbling at me on private property in Hocking county on Saturday. Just sayin...


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## miked913

chadwimc said:


> I had four birds gobbling at me on private property in Hocking county on Saturday. Just sayin...


Nobody is saying there are no turkeys, it's just that not in the too distant past there were a lot more. What if you and another person kill those 4 this year? It would just be nice to help this before we have another yellow perch situation.

reelylivinsportfishing.com


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## FOWL BRAWL

I used to love to kill turkeys,now i just love hunting them.

Not blaming anyone as long as they are following the law , but i feel the division has set the stage on hunters thoughts on what they should do or not do when it comes to killing bird #2 or how about bird #3 ? 
Remember the days when if you wanted to kill a second spring turkey you needed to purchase the second tag at the same time you purchased the first ?........complete BS
As far as bird #3 goes if you don't offer a fall tag and just call your spring turkey tag, a turkey tag then there is no third bird for hunters to kill.


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## bobk

UNCLEMIKE said:


> And sure enough it looks like a wetter than normal weather pattern for the next 14 days. When do the majority of eggs hatch out? We had a dry April and May is now looking wet. Just bad luck for the hatch I guess.








Wild Turkey Lifestyle & Breeding


The National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) is a national nonprofit conservation and hunting organization that has worked for the conservation of the wild turkey and preservation of the hunting tradition since 1973.




www.nwtf.org


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## slashbait

Just another observation. I walk a lot in Cleveland southern area Metro Parks. There are a good number of turkeys in them areas. What really stands out is the amount of yotes, raccoons and Ferrell cats Also in these places. Actually so heavy in some areas they put warning signs to be careful of the yotes. One spot in particular if you walk in there at dusk to dark, they actually howl and many times come to check you out. Amazingly there’s a boom of turkey there At that spot? Called in few gobblers in metro park lately while walking trails.


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## UNCLEMIKE

bobk said:


> Wild Turkey Lifestyle & Breeding
> 
> 
> The National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) is a national nonprofit conservation and hunting organization that has worked for the conservation of the wild turkey and preservation of the hunting tradition since 1973.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nwtf.org


Thanks bobk.... good information.


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## buck16on

My understanding is the change next year will be a limit of one gobbler in the spring on public land and no change on private land. I noticed a change several years ago that gobblers quit coming close to decoys. They'd only come to within 75 yards and no closer. Then I also started seeing more single birds roaming around and smaller flocks. The last three years all the gobblers I've shot were without using decoys. I sit along field edges behind a bush or behind low growing leafy plants deep in the timber and the gobblers come to my slate call looking for the turkey clucking and purring. I have seen more and more coyotes while turkey hunting and deer hunting and one wolverine and one wolf. The predators are out there and it's not unusual for me to see coyotes hunting throughout the morning as late as 11 AM. I don't know anything about the corn coating as where I hunt turkeys there is no corn anywhere. It appears the turkeys are more hesitant to come to decoys and respond to calls which may indicate too much hunting pressure and maybe some evolving survival adjustment by the turkeys. I bow hunt deer in the fall in 5 states 6 to 7 days a week and every year I see more and more deer and more bucks than does. It appears the deer are multiplying like rabbits while the turkeys are declining. My guess it's a predator issue on the eggs and the chicks which would include hawks, owls, racoons, possum, snakes, coyotes, bobcats, beers etc.


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## joekacz

Without a doubt that predator's play a factor into poult loss but if that was the major issue then you would have to ask yourself why do the southern states overall have the largest population's of turkey's.Alabama with a 5 bird limit,sping and fall,is published to hold the most wild birds.There are other southern states that hold large population's with liberal limit's.The BIG difference is spring time weather.Their lack of long period's of below freezing temp's and spring snow's in my opinion certainly help's their population.If you look at the loss's in Ohio loss of game bird's(quail,pheasant) weather played a large roll in their disappearance.If you look at the last 5 year's of harvest Ohio has been somewhat steady and if you really think about weather also hamper's your ability to harvest a turkey.I would like to see the state respond to poor hatch's by lowering limit's a lot faster then it's done now.Don't beat me up it's just a opinion from an OOOLLD turkey hunter that has had the privilege to watch this grow in our state.


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## Southernsaug

There are as many opinions as there are people on every topic and this one is no exception. As a retired ODNR/ODW employee I have a tendency to defend the ODW, but my honest nature tells me I must admit that ODW at times seems to be asleep at the wheel. I think it seems to happen more now than in the past. One thing I know for sure is they have suffered immensely from funding declines and higher operational cost. Staffing is lower than it's been in a long time and none of that helps efficiency. 

On the turkeys, I have been part of several discussions on old gobbler forum about the declines and it is happening Nation wide not just Ohio. I would say a consensus of those discussions is that depredation of poults and nest is a huge factor. I have found two nest destroyed by predators already this year (I presume raccoons). 

I have watched data of harvest over my 48 years of turkey hunting and I have been fortunate to have access to inside information. The info Bob posted is good as it shows trends. Someone asked about second bird harvest and that data shows 16% of hunters tag no. 2. That's approximately 1 in 6 hunters. Statistically the harvest have been somewhat consistent with normal ups and downs over the last 20 years. wildlife managers usually don't react to seasonal fluctuations over 3-5 years, but when longer term trends show change they react. Managing game and fish species is best when done looking at 5 years of data or more. However, sometimes you see sudden dramatic changes and you need to immediately react (i.e. CWD ). So when it appears biologist are asleep, they may not be, but are watching and preparing to react if necessary. This is why you see them now discussing some harvest limitations in the future. 

One scenario that should be considered is the expansion of turkeys in Ohio. Originally all reintroductions were done in southern, southeastern and eastern Ohio. Then trap and transplant starting filling in releases in more and more areas. As they did turkeys exploded to fill new habitat. This did not happen over night, but took around 30 years to stock most of the available habitat. when you introduce wildlife to a new habitat, void of that species, they react by saturating that habitat within in a span of a decade or so. Yet, habitat can only long term sustain a certain density or carry capacity. This carrying capacity is often much less than the peak of saturation densities. That is what we have seen happen. It has been a long drawn out scenario though as many areas were stocked 20-30 years apart. Our farm was close to one of the original release areas and we saw the explosion in the 80s and by the late 90s our flocks were leveling out. We went from 20 active spring gobblers on our 1,000-1200 acres to 6-10 annual average. This number has held steady for 20+ years. So, I am not sure it's time to panic, as much of what seems like a dramatic decline is actually a natural adjustment to carrying capacity and that density is directly attributed to habitat quality. Habitat quality has also declined with much of our forest having large mature mast producing trees timbered off. The state forest used to be protected, but now they cut those forest too. We have a certain past governor to thank for that! sorry for the long winded post


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## TMK

joekacz said:


> Without a doubt that predator's play a factor into poult loss but if that was the major issue then you would have to ask yourself why do the southern states overall have the largest population's of turkey's.Alabama with a 5 bird limit,sping and fall,is published to hold the most wild birds.There are other southern states that hold large population's with liberal limit's.The BIG difference is spring time weather.Their lack of long period's of below freezing temp's and spring snow's in my opinion certainly help's their population.If you look at the loss's in Ohio loss of game bird's(quail,pheasant) weather played a large roll in their disappearance.If you look at the last 5 year's of harvest Ohio has been somewhat steady and if you really think about weather also hamper's your ability to harvest a turkey.I would like to see the state respond to poor hatch's by lowering limit's a lot faster then it's done now.Don't beat me up it's just a opinion from an OOOLLD turkey hunter that has had the privilege to watch this grow in our state.


Let's all pray for a warm and dry spring!!


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## 9Left

snagless-1 said:


> Take up predator hunting.Shoot them when you see them.A friend bow hunts and the coyotes walk under his stand and he does not shoot.Sees less deer last 2 years.Go figure.


Predator hunting ironically increases the problem of predators. Trapping is about the only effective way to manage that problem


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## capt.scott

I am curious how hunting predators increases the problem?


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## 9Left

When you hunt for coyotes… You're literally not even making a dent in the population… What you're actually doing is eliminating a few coyotes increasing the hunting range and the food availability for other coyotes, which in turn flourish, breed more, and reproduce more. If you read some of the studies done in the last few years… You could actually kill more than 50% of the entire coyote population every year for the next 10 years… And still never have an impact on the population.


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## 9Left

And by the way I'm not knocking anyone that hunts coyotes... i've done it plenty of times and It's a whole Lotta fun especially with some friends…It's just not an effective method to reduce numbers


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## joekacz

9Left in my opinion you hit it right on the head. The elimination of predators especially coyotes was tried years ago in our western states by every means imaginable even to the point of poisoning and bounty payouts. They still have some of the largest populations of coyotes around. Don’t know what the answer is which is becoming the “million dollar “ question.


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## capt.scott

9Left said:


> And by the way I'm not knocking anyone that hunts coyotes... i've done it plenty of times and It's a whole Lotta fun especially with some friends…It's just not an effective method to reduce numbers


I didn’t take it that way. Thank you for the reply.


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## joekacz

Boy these localized floods from yesterday's rain's probably will take its toll's on the nesting bird's.The news was showing agricultural fields here in the northeast and it looked devastating .Not that many of us will remember but you have to wonder what next years population of turkey's is going to be.Predatation is one thing but weather can take a lot more out in one episode.Let's hope for the best. IMHO


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## miked913

You're right Joe, this past weeks weather was really the last thing we needed right now. Our turkeys could really use a break from this crazy weather!

reelylivinsportfishing.com


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## Redheads

The effects of this wet cold spring will be felt with local nesting waterfowl as well.

last week in the marsh i saw the hen mallards still sitting on nests, the few that were hatched were just days old, the geese have been hatched weeks ago and have a better chance


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## Southernsaug

I was told a long time ago by Bob Donahoe (the original turkey biologist for Ohio that led the reintroduction) that cold and wet wasn't a critical mortality component when the chicks were small and the hen could still cover them. It's at about 4-6 weeks or when they start roosting in trees that the cold and damp gets them.


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## joekacz

Southernsaug said:


> I was told a long time ago by Bob Donahoe (the original turkey biologist for Ohio that led the reintroduction) that cold and wet wasn't a critical mortality component when the chicks were small and the hen could still cover them. It's at about 4-6 weeks or when they start roosting in trees that the cold and damp gets them.


If you know the answer,what about nests that get covered by flood waters for a short period of time,just wondering. Them hens do put nests in some vulnerable areas.


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