# So many choices!



## godukies (Sep 1, 2007)

The more I read and research, the more up in the air I am about which kayak to choose! I am currently looking at a moken 10 lite and a native ultimate 12. I am 6' 2" 200 and want something I can load on my car by myself. I will be using it for small rivers and creeks. Thoughts?


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

Coosa and stop searchin. 


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## Jmsteele187 (Dec 22, 2011)

SMBHooker said:


> Coosa and stop searchin.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


^^ what he said


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## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

SMBHooker said:


> Coosa and stop searchin.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


No kidding.


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## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

No question the coosa. Don't make the mistake and get something you'll think looks good, you'll end up buying another boat later

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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

I fully understand and agree with the perks and advantages of the coosa but it is not the answer for everyone. Don't get me wrong the coosa is probably the best smallmouth kayak around but it is not the only one that will float down a stream. You dont need a Porsche Boxster to drive to work and you don't need a coosa to fish a creek. Even though they would be nice to have.

The two boats you mentioned are both at 15 pounds less, and several hundred dollars less than the coosa. If you want to spend the extra $ and dont mind the extra 15 pounds then I'm sure you would be happy with it, but it is not a necessity. 

I personally do not care for the Ultimate. I like sit on tops better. I need scupper plugs when I am fishing because I have too much gear to unload and flip the boat every time I get water in it. I also prefer the molded top to the open canoe style of the ultimate.

I like the style of the Mokens. At only ten foot the keel that it has should not hurt the maneuverability in small streams very much. 

There are a lot of options out there so there are probably a few that will fit your needs.


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

Moken 10 UL kayak will beat a coosa hands down! just saying.....


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Yakphisher said:


> Moken 10 UL kayak will beat a coosa hands down! just saying.....


Please explain. Beat it how? On price and weight, OK. But how else? Because it has that little wheel?

The OP said he wants to fish small rivers and creeks. The hull of the Moken versus the hull of the Coosa....not even in the same ballpark. The Coosa was built from the hull up to handle EXACTLY that type of water. It is SPECIFICALLY why it even exists; for small rivers and creeks.
He also said he wants to FISH out of it. Are you suggesting the Moken is better set up for fishing than the Coosa? Again, the Coosa was made SPECIFICALLY for fishing, and fishing rivers. Hence features like the designed drag chain feature.
Seat? Coosa blows it away.

And Rusty,if you're that concerned about having to flip your boat every time you swamp it, maybe a kayaking class and a 10 dollar bilge pump for Christmas their year.


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## godukies (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks for the input! I am well aware of the Coosa and what a great Yak it is, but I have ruled it out more for weight than anything else. I need to be able to get this on and off my SUV by myself and my back doesn't seem to be getting any better with age. With the seat removed, the Ultimate is under 50 pounds. Origanally I like the idea of a SIK, but I just don't like the feeling of being restricted or cramped in the leg and foot area. The Ultimate takes care of that issue. I like the idea of the built in wheel on the Moken but I can lift the Ultimate and carry it on my shoulder. Rusty - good point on the water in the bottom, but will I really be taking on that much water? It was never really that big of an issue with my Jon Boat. I will be taking both for a test drive this week. 

Do many anglers use trolling motors? My purpose would be for getting back to my vehicle.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Hey the wheel is very practical 5% of the time. LOL


"And Rusty, just because a boat is only 10 feet long doesn't mean it handles well."

It means it will handle better than a 12-13ft kayak with the same hull. And I never even hinted that anything was equal to or better than the Coosa.


"And you make you boat decisions based on how easy it is to dump water out?" 

Absolutely, every half way decent SOT on the market has scupper plugs for a reason. A SIK is one thing but the Ultimate is entirely exposed on top. Many of my reasons are not relevant to the OP (like while catfishing I rinse mud, blood, guts, and scales out of my kayak very often). I also fish rain or shine, and would just prefer the rain to go out as quick as it goes in. So no, I would never have a kayak with out scupper plugs. My only complaint about my current kayak is that that the scupper capacity is to low and they take on water when it is fully loaded. This is the main reason I want a new kayak.


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## SeanStone (Sep 8, 2010)

rustyfish said:


> You dont need a Porsche Boxster to drive to work and you don't need a coosa to fish a creek.


Lmao. Thats funny stuff. I do agree though. With that said, I do tend to buy the best stuff I can afford.....$350-400 dollar bass combos as an example.

I did stop by the whitewater warehouse booth at the midwest outdoor experience before the bkft tourney last weekend and looked at the native boats. The ultimate is very tempting because its sooooo light. 15lbs is a lot when your lifting it, portaging, doing long put ins/take outs solo. I prefer the slayers layout the most of any sot yaks I have seen. Slayer has a wheel too....but im not a fan of the design. Good idea...just looks to small for anything other than parking lot use.

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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

godukies said:


> Thanks for the input! I am well aware of the Coosa and what a great Yak it is, but I have ruled it out more for weight than anything else. I need to be able to get this on and off my SUV by myself and my back doesn't seem to be getting any better with age. With the seat removed, the Ultimate is under 50 pounds. Origanally I like the idea of a SIK, but I just don't like the feeling of being restricted or cramped in the leg and foot area. The Ultimate takes care of that issue. I like the idea of the built in wheel on the Moken but I can lift the Ultimate and carry it on my shoulder. Rusty - good point on the water in the bottom, but will I really be taking on that much water? It was never really that big of an issue with my Jon Boat. I will be taking both for a test drive this week.
> 
> Do many anglers use trolling motors? My purpose would be for getting back to my vehicle.



I would test a coosa first. I don't own one but I have tested one before and if you are fishing creeks you can't beat it. And the extra 15 pounds shouldn't be a problem to get on the suv. The trolling motor I think would be more of a pain then it is worth in the river plus I am pretty sure it requires a different registration when you add the trolling motor.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

The weight thing has always been over blown, IMO.
99% of the time, if you're floating from A to B, you're going to be with someone. Even if you're alone, getting the kayak on and off your vehicle is about .1% of the total time fishing. And I'm just not willing to sacrifice all the great things that happen once on the water, for 2 minutes of lifting.

Here's what I know about the Ultimate. Great boat, but on Ohio streams, not so much. It's the hull that's the issue. And I don't mean how the boat handles when it's floating, I mean what the boat does when that hull hits bottom. 
Ask Streamstalker. He has had an Ultimate for years and I think he will say that the hull, on streams in Ohio when you're GOING to hit bottom often, is a big detriment. 
Maybe Neil will chime in.


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## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

imalt said:


> I would test a coosa first. I don't own one but I have tested one before and if you are fishing creeks you can't beat it. And the extra 15 pounds shouldn't be a problem to get on the suv. The trolling motor I think would be more of a pain then it is worth in the river plus I am pretty sure it requires a different registration when you add the trolling motor.


Pretty much all of this, including the registration bit.


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## godukies (Sep 1, 2007)

Bubbagon said:


> The weight thing has always been over blown, IMO.
> 99% of the time, if you're floating from A to B, you're going to be with someone. Even if you're alone, getting the kayak on and off your vehicle is about .1% of the total time fishing. And I'm just not willing to sacrifice all the great things that happen once on the water, for 2 minutes of lifting.
> 
> Here's what I know about the Ultimate. Great boat, but on Ohio streams, not so much. It's the hull that's the issue. And I don't mean how the boat handles when it's floating, I mean what the boat does when that hull hits bottom.
> ...


Actually, I will be floating alone 99% of the time. I have back issues and the weight issue is a big deal to me. Not just lifting on and off the car, but also getting it to and from the water and vehicle. 

Thanks for the reference though. I will send Streamstalker a message.

I also have a small concern buying the Cadillac of Kayaks when I am not completely sure how much actual use I will get out of it. I think I will put it to good use, but until I actually have it, I won't fully know. I nearly bought a new pleasure boat several years ago but opted for a used lower end boat. Based on how little I used it, it turned out to be a very good decision.

I do REALLY appreciate all the comments. Having OCD tendencies is a real detriment when it comes to making decisions!!!


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## SMBHooker (Jan 3, 2008)

The Slayer is a great yak and has your wheel. 


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

godukies said:


> Actually, I will be floating alone 99% of the time. I have back issues and the weight issue is a big deal to me. Not just lifting on and off the car, but also getting it to and from the water and vehicle.
> 
> 
> I also have a small concern buying the Cadillac of Kayaks when I am not completely sure how much actual use I will get out of it.


I suggest you rent a few, and fish a few days out of one, before you buy anything at all.
I can't think of one thing about kayaking that would be anything but bad for someone who has legitimate back issues.
The paddle stroke, a proper one, is a constant twisting of your lower torso.
Getting it to and from. And if you're going to be alone 99% of the time, that's a whole lotta lifting and lugging, no matter what boat you buy.

Aren't the Mokens right around a grand? 
There are TONS of kayaks in the $400 range that are much lighter if you're not sure you're even going to use it.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Bubbagon said:


> I suggest you rent a few, and fish a few days out of one, before you buy anything at all.
> I can't think of one thing about kayaking that would be anything but bad for someone who has legitimate back issues.
> The paddle stroke, a proper one, is a constant twisting of your lower torso.
> Getting it to and from. And if you're going to be alone 99% of the time, that's a whole lotta lifting and lugging, no matter what boat you buy.
> ...



I agree. I had back pain when first starting out in the kayak so it could be twice as bad depending on the stayle of kayak and seat.

I think it is $800 If you don't expect to use it once or more a week 7-8 months of the year then you might be able to get a serviceable kayak for much cheaper.

Maybe,

Emotion Spitfire or Renegade
Perception tribe or Perception pesador
Malibu Mini X

and any number of SIK models. Just look around.


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## farleybucks (Aug 8, 2009)

> Maybe Neil will chime in.


Chiming in...haha....
I actually really like the Ultimate for river/creeking...for a few reasons, but before I get crushed by the Slayer/Coosa crowd the ultimate won't glide over really, really skinny water as well as b/c of the hull. BUT, the hull isn't actually that bad.
I have taken it to the skinny water of the Mad trout fishing quite a few times in the winter and I would never do that if I had to get in and out of the yak multiple times to get through skinny water.
I have been tossing around the idea of purchasing one for a while now because I paddle Whitewater Warehouses demo unit quite a bit.

The reasons I am tossing around the idea of getting it is for a few reasons....
I like to use it in the cold months b/c you don't get nearly as wet as you would in a sit on top (which I already own). It is really easy to lift and carry to car/home/around portages etc. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the weight of the Ultimate and everything to do with the ability to hoist up on your shoulder and carry....you can't do that with any sit on tops....(maybe you try once or twice when you first buy it, but in the end you just drag it anywhere the wheel doesn't work well or you don't have a cart b/c they are too awkward to handle/carry)

In my opinion, the ultimate would work in rivers/creeks for sure...as would a coosa and a slayer. If you are willing to carry a few more additional times in skinny water, but gain the ability to easily move the yak around I say go for it. btw, you can have the best kayak made and if you don't know how to handle it on moving water it won't matter what you use and you will get hung up.....experience or paddling classes on moving water helps for sure.
Hope that helps....


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

farleybucks said:


> the ultimate won't glide over really, really skinny water as well as b/c of the hull. BUT, the hull isn't actually that bad.


Wrong Neil.
But that's my point. That hull on skinny water is more than "not bad". Not because it won't glide over, but because it catches, from any angle, and snap turns and tosses said kayaker in the drink.

And I definitely don't get your point of how an Ultimate is going to keep you drier than a SOT in winter months.


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## SeanStone (Sep 8, 2010)

Waves crash over my sot malibu on big water waves or roller coaster rapids. No high low seating means I get swamp butt when that happens. That may not happen in a sink. I have thought the very same thing for winter fishing, but I dont know if I want to get a sink just for that reason.


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## godukies (Sep 1, 2007)

Bubbagon said:


> Wrong Neil.
> But that's my point. That hull on skinny water is more than "not bad". Not because it won't glide over, but because it catches, from any angle, and snap turns and tosses said kayaker in the drink.


More so than a canoe? 

And when I get to really skinny water, aren't I just going to walk it through like I did in a Jon boat?


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## farleybucks (Aug 8, 2009)

> Wrong Neil.


I know, but I chimed in anyway....


> Not because it won't glide over, but because it catches, from any angle, and snap turns and tosses said kayaker in the drink.


Any kayak can hit a rock and flip I am sure you have fished enough to know this. Where the ultimate and slayer/coosa differentiate themselves is where you are in supershallow water, say before a small riffle and their is a gravel bar the ultimate might hang up and you may have to get out. I have paddled the ultimate no fewer than 100 times on skinny waterways and have not flipped it. I have however seen both a coosa and slayer flip.
If you hit a rock on the side of your kayak near the seat any kayak will flip including the slayer or coosa. The ultimate tends to hit rocks and either spin off them or slide over them, but can also flip...the difference being the lower center of gravity in the ultimate vs. coosa/slayer Of course like I mentioned paddling classes, experience, paying attention to the water trump all of this.



> And I definitely don't get your point of how an Ultimate is going to keep you drier than a SOT in winter months.


the seat in the ultimate is raised not as much as other sit on tops, but it keeps you from sitting directly on the plastic of the kayak that holds waterso your butt stays dry (similar to the coosa/slayer not as high, but stills sits much lower to the water). The part that tends to keep you drier than the coosa/slayer are the ultimate's sides. The sides allow for most of that dripping water from your paddle blade to hit the side of the kayak rather than the paddler. Dripping water from a paddle doesn't sound like much but in cooler temps and a long trip is makes a huge difference.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

godukies said:


> More so than a canoe?
> 
> And when I get to really skinny water, aren't I just going to walk it through like I did in a Jon boat?


WAY more so than a canoe. Or at least a royalex canoe.
My canoe sits high in the water, and it will get through skinny water with relative ease. An Ultimate needs another 3-4 inches of water.
Aluminum boats stick to rocks like velcro. Plastic boats bend a little and will slide over most anything.
But the hull of the Ultimate is unique. And unique in a way that it catches ledges and rocks in a really awkward way. Turns you sideways, snap turns, that kind of stuff in skinny water.
And in Ohio, or at least around here, the majority of the summer means skinny water.


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## Stuhly (Jul 6, 2009)

No prob here loading my Native 12 Manta Ray on when needed.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

I wouldn't say any kayak will flip from a rock. Mine may possibly take on some water if I get turned sideways in just a few inches of water. Its not going to tip unless a tree takes out my upper body. If I hit a rock I just slide over it or off it. Dihedrial hull works really well in skinny water.

That would be my biggest worry about a strong keel. I can take anything down stream but I just dont want to worry about getting High centered and tip.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

farleybucks said:


> the seat in the ultimate is raised not as much as other sit on tops, but it keeps you from sitting directly on the plastic of the kayak that holds waterso your butt stays dry (similar to the coosa/slayer not as high, but stills sits much lower to the water). The part that tends to keep you drier than the coosa/slayer are the ultimate's sides. The sides allow for most of that dripping water from your paddle blade to hit the side of the kayak rather than the paddler. Dripping water from a paddle doesn't sound like much but in cooler temps and a long trip is makes a huge difference.


I understand the butt thing. But I'm lost on the paddle dripping thing.
In either boat, the paddler still sits in the middle. How the sides of the boat keep water off the paddler, while a sit on top does not, is confusing. Water drips straight down. It either drips down on the paddler or it doesn't. I don't understand how the sides of the boat could prevent this.

I used drip rings, which help. And of course if I'm paddling in cold weather, I'm dressed enough that water dripping isn't going to affect my comfort level at all.

I should make this clear. I like the Ultimate A LOT. It's an absolutely fantastic boat that does a LOT of things really, really well. The weight of the boat compared to the capacity rating is nothing short of awesome. The available accessories for the boats are unreal. Native is a really cool company making some really cool boats.

I just don't like the hull design of the Ultimate, specifically when it comes to paddling skinny water. It is it's Achilles heel.
I'd paddle the Slayer any day over the Ultimate. 
And if I was going to buy a kayak, as the OP stated for "small rivers and creeks", then I'd choose a Coosa all day long.


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## farleybucks (Aug 8, 2009)

> I'd paddle the Slayer any day over the Ultimate.
> And if I was going to buy a kayak, as the OP stated for "small rivers and creeks", then I'd choose a Coosa all day long.


Don't get me wrong, I love the Slayer....but it sounded as if moving the kayak was something godukies was putting a premium on...the slayer/coosa ain't that boat. I am 6'2" 250ish and have a very tough time putting a coosa or slayer on top of any vehicle. For his situation I think the upside of the ultimate outweighs the negatives.


> I wouldn't say any kayak will flip from a rock.


 Give it time Russ...it will happen!!! You have a real low center of gravity in your sit on top...but if you hit a rock on your downstream hip at the right spot it will go over on ya....I have had it happen to me a few times in similar sit on tops.



> I used drip rings, which help. And of course if I'm paddling in cold weather, I'm dressed enough that water dripping isn't going to affect my comfort level at all.


yeah dressing well is best, but anyone in Ohio has been out when it turns from sunny and 70 to 40 in a flash!lol Drip rings help to an extent....water usually drips from where the shaft meets the blade or where drip rings are located and most time in a sit on top it will hit your hip/leg/etc...in the Ultimate it more often than not hits the side of the boat. I can tell you from experience I stay much drier in the ultimate than sit on tops including the slayer.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

farleybucks said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love the Slayer....but it sounded as if moving the kayak was something godukies was putting a premium on...the slayer/coosa ain't that boat. I am 6'2" 250ish and have a very tough time putting a coosa or slayer on top of any vehicle. For his situation I think the upside of the ultimate outweighs the negatives.


You're right.
And on the tipping thing, you aint a kayaker until you flip one unexpectedly. 

There's a group in Central Ohio of kayak/fishermen. We've been hanging around each other for 15+ years and we take a lot of out of state trips.
About 10 years ago, our East Coast buddies started calling us the Buckeye Swim Team, due to our propensity to tip over. 
So now we have some official by laws. OK, maybe just one:
If you are kayaking WITH an official member of the Buckeye Swim Team, and you have an unexpected swim, then you automatically become a member of the Team.
I gotta think we're at least 50 strong these days. 
Stucky likes to hand out the OSU buckeye helmet stickers to new members.


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## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

Have one on my truck. My son is multiple time member.

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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

StuckAtHome said:


> My son is multiple time member.


LOL!! He most certainly is.
Tucker earned his in whitewater. But he tells me all the time "Dad, I'm not going to tip when I'm FISHING".
Sure thing, silly boy. Young, dumb and invincible...


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## farleybucks (Aug 8, 2009)

Swim club....too funny...
It ain't if, it's when....

The whitewater crowd says the same thing about the Ohio paddlers....running joke of not liking to paddle with them cuz they ended up spending the whole trip rescuing

I know some people that have a similar club....it's called FIFO...pretty large and popular OSU type deal around the Dayton area....they got the name from down south on their golf outings and a lot of liquor involved (F'n Idiots From Ohio)


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## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

Yea that cracks me up hearing people say they never tip. Kayaking is a wet sport, it will happen. I've gone over twice in two years, before that I thought I'm too good for that, lol. Last time over was with pasta and Neil, caught nice 16", out my rod down, took off the hook and my rod falls in, I'm not losing it so I lean over knowing it will end bad, came up from the river with the rod and still have the fish.

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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Seven years in the Ultimate, and the only time I swam was when I was demonstrating how to run a lowhead... 

I love my Ultimate, and even though I bought a Kilroy this year, I still find applications for it, mainly in situations where portability is an issue. It is very easy to lift on top of a car, whereas SOTs are like wrestling a bear. It is also really easy to shoulder carry if you have to negotiate some terrain. If you have the money, you can get the Ultimate Tegris which is only 30 lbs. and made of military ballistic grade material. I still think that might end up being my "old man" kayak in a few years.

The tunnel hull does give you about .5 inch less clearance than some yaks. That can be significant on our small creeks, but it was never a deal breaker for me. The snap turning Bubba may be referring to was a certain 360 I did in a chute that that was narrower than my Ultimate is long. Didn't tip it though! I had it under control all the way...

The reason I wanted another yak was not small water, it was big water. If you go anywhere close to Class 2 water, you are going to be pulling it over to bail it out because it rides fairly low and is open. Putting on a front skirt helps a bit, but If you put the nose in a swell, the water is going to slosh right over the bow.


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## farleybucks (Aug 8, 2009)

> the water is going to slosh right over the bow.


been there, done that! I also do that when I launch bow first from an elevated bank, lol


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

farleybucks said:


> been there, done that! I also do that when I launch bow first from an elevated bank, lol


Actually, the 360 and the 10 gallon slosh I took at the beginning of this year were both Bubba's fault. On the first one, I saw him ahead walking it through the chute (I think he was actually shepherding a newbie through it.) I got up there to the side to walk it too, and I thought, _This is runnable._ Too late...I caught the front end and started spinning.

The second incident occurred when he adjusted my attitude right before a set of rapids. My decision making process was a bit slowed, and I may not have taken the best line... That was back in April, and I was darn glad I decided on wearing the chest waders that day! I took that same section in the Kilroy at high water later in the year and maybe got a couple drops of water on my knees.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

I have have tipped and I will again I'm sure but I just don't see it happening from a rock or a log under water. If a rock flips me then I am in way worse water then I ever plan to be in.

I see Sean and Amanda have close calls all the time in fast shallow water. It just does not affect my kayak that way. I either slide off of it or I stop, if I stop sideways then I may get wet but there is no stability issues. 
Sorry you guys have to deal with that, I'd probably buy a cheaper kayak if I were you


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

farleybucks said:


> Swim club....too funny...
> It ain't if, it's when....


Ummm, excuse me....we're a TEAM, not a club. 
Buckeye Swim Team, we're the B.eS.T. !

Club....what do you think we are, a bunch or idiots?


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## Jmsteele187 (Dec 22, 2011)

Bubbagon said:


> You're right.
> And on the tipping thing, you aint a kayaker until you flip one unexpectedly.


Sweet! I'm a real kayaker, lol.

I ended up in the drink, in about 20ft of water on Lake Erie when a 2-3ft wave rolled me while reaching for a crank bait in the water. Good times.


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## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

> About 10 years ago, our East Coast buddies started calling us the Buckeye Swim Team, due to our propensity to tip over.
> So now we have some official by laws. OK, maybe just one:
> If you are kayaking WITH an official member of the Buckeye Swim Team, and you have an unexpected swim, then you automatically become a member of the Team.
> I gotta think we're at least 50 strong these days.


3X award winner, reporting in.
New in WV, New in Virginia, New in WV.

Hell I flipped within 10 minutes my first time on the New lol.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

shwookie said:


> 3X award winner, reporting in.
> New in WV, New in Virginia, New in WV.


Me too!! 3X!!!
Shenendoah in Virginia is where I popped my cherry.
Big Walnut...just acting like a fool.
Cheat River, WV...multiple swims in the same trip.

MAYBE another couple here and there but that was before the BST was officially established so I'm not counting them.


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## godukies (Sep 1, 2007)

farleybucks said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love the Slayer....but it sounded as if moving the kayak was something godukies was putting a premium on...the slayer/coosa ain't that boat. I am 6'2" 250ish and have a very tough time putting a coosa or slayer on top of any vehicle. For his situation I think the upside of the ultimate outweighs the negatives.


Bingo! Weight and portability are probably my biggest priority. That would be followed by comfortable seat, manueverabiltiy in small rivers and creeks, and quality. Although after reading some of Bubba's posts, he has me thinking I am going to be rolling the Ultimate over all the time, so I guess stability (seated) would also be a factor. Test drive tonight!


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

BTW, Shenandoah is where I learned about hard keels in the back of the boat.

I'm fishing with the locals (Grubby and Herschel) and just having a great day. 
I watch them slide over a ledge in the middle of the river without incident. So I paddle along, slowly, not thinking much about it. The first 90% of my kayak slides over the ledge easily. Then the back keel catches the ledge and stops me, over I went.

I didn't get it at first either. When the back keel catches on something and you stop, your boat is floating, but now it's raised and delicately balancing on the 1" keel at the back of the boat. The very slightest lean to either side will very quickly dump you and your stuff out of the kayak.

If you want to "feel" that, take your kayak and put it in the water. Leave just the very back keel sitting on land. Now try to get in your boat.


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

godukies said:


> B Although after reading some of Bubba's posts, he has me thinking I am going to be rolling the Ultimate over all the time, so I guess stability (seated) would also be a factor. Test drive tonight!


Not at all. You just have to be mindful of paddling through skinny rapids.
You'll LOVE that boat. Outstanding kayak.


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

farleybucks said:


> The sides allow for most of that dripping water from your paddle blade to hit the side of the kayak rather than the paddler. Dripping water from a paddle doesn't sound like much but in cooler temps and a long trip is makes a huge difference.


That's why I keep my Vapor. Helps keep your legs out of the wind too.

I'm a lake guy, or so Tucker tells me  . WIndy out there in the flat water, the drips don't fall straight down.


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## BornWithGills (Feb 26, 2006)

I got a coosa this year to use in the rivers and it is awesome. Throwing it on your shoulder is definitely not an option. I am 6'3" 220lbs and it is a bitch to carry for any distance. Pretty easy solution though is a kayak cart, fits right through the scupper holes and breaks down and fits in a hatch. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## godukies (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks for all the comments! Pulled the trigger and bought the ultimate tonight. Stopped on the way home for a maiden voyage. A happy yaker!


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

Bubbagon said:


> Please explain. Beat it how? On price and weight, OK. But how else? Because it has that little wheel?
> 
> The OP said he wants to fish small rivers and creeks. The hull of the Moken versus the hull of the Coosa....not even in the same ballpark. The Coosa was built from the hull up to handle EXACTLY that type of water. It is SPECIFICALLY why it even exists; for small rivers and creeks.
> He also said he wants to FISH out of it. Are you suggesting the Moken is better set up for fishing than the Coosa? Again, the Coosa was made SPECIFICALLY for fishing, and fishing rivers. Hence features like the designed drag chain feature.
> ...


That Big (not little) wheel make it easy to drag it around and is one the best thing about it especially when its loaded down with gears!

$300-$400 more than most competive yaks is just a waste of money that could be wisely spent on a good carbon paddle and fish finders.

15 lbs. is lot of weight considering that lighter is definitely better.


I have negotiated class 2-3 rapids in Ultimate 12 and is ok if you use your head tho. 

The Coosa is nice boat but its just their is better values out there.

There are going to be times where you may want to fish bigger water and frankly that where the Coosa usability ends since it such a poor paddling boat if it doesn't have enough moving water. Reason why they keep being listed for sale! Hehehe!

Even the short Moken 10 will handle large 3 ft. waves from Erie with gusto!
Good luck with that Coosa!! 

I do know the Cuda is much better do everything boat that you can keep for a long time without being so darned discouraged.

But no doubt we can keep beating the dead horse about it but only real time in saddle will give each persons their preference.


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## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

Have you paddled a coosa? Hard to dismiss if you have no idea why it's a great boat.I've done class 3's in my tarpon, straight down because that's all you can do, in the coosa you can do almost what you want, spin behind a rock and fish, not another boat designed to do that, any boat can run a rapid straight, impress me and try to Eddie out in a small pocket with the ultimate, you are paying for those features, that's why it's made by a company that knows white water

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

Yakphisher said:


> There are going to be times where you may want to fish bigger water and frankly that where the Coosa usability ends since it such a poor paddling boat if it doesn't have enough moving water. Reason why they keep being listed for sale! Hehehe!
> 
> Even the short Moken 10 will handle large 3 ft. waves from Erie with gusto!
> Good luck with that Coosa!!
> ...


Wow. How could you possibly suggest to a new paddler that taking a 10 foot kayak out on Erie in "large 3 foot waves" will be fine? That's a horrible idea.
And who wants a do everything boat? Not me. I've owned a few. And you know what, they're "OK" at best at doing most things.
I fish rivers. Period. The minute someone else makes a river specific fishing kayak, I'll be all ears. But until then, the Coosa is without a shadow of a doubt the best river fishing kayak on the market.And I've had the benefit of paddling many different kayaks.

And yes, often the best things are the most expensive.


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## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

I've had the coosa in 3 foot waves on the ocean, in the high seat position, no worries, again have YOU paddled a coosa? How can you make these remarks when you have no idea? 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

How in the world can you say that a Moken 10 could handle Erie but a Coosa couldn't?

And again its only a poor paddling boat if you don't know how to paddle a boat properly. Take some classes, practice your stroke. Most guys fish and but a kayak thinking its easy, truth be told its much easier if you put in the practice to learn how to properly handle your boat.
Good technique = good time.

That seat in the moken Vs. a Coosa aint a fair fight either lol.


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## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

godukies said:


> Thanks for all the comments! Pulled the trigger and bought the ultimate tonight. Stopped on the way home for a maiden voyage. A happy yaker!


That was probably your best option given your criteria.
Welcome to the club, have fun and wear a life jacket.


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## farleybucks (Aug 8, 2009)

> Thanks for all the comments! Pulled the trigger and bought the ultimate tonight. Stopped on the way home for a maiden voyage. A happy yaker!


Congrats on your new yak!


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## mschulte (Mar 29, 2013)

I have a Wilderness Systems Ride 115X. Im 6'9 345lbs and its the most stable boat I tested. Works good for lots of different activities.


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## SeanStone (Sep 8, 2010)

godukies said:


> Thanks for all the comments! Pulled the trigger and bought the ultimate tonight. Stopped on the way home for a maiden voyage. A happy yaker!


Id be lying if I said I wasnt a little jealous. Your back will appreciate it.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Native crows about how comfortable their seat is, but I actually couldn't take more than about 90 minutes in it before I was squirming all over trying to find a position that did not cause pain. I bought their lumbar pad and added two hunting pads to the seat and one to the back. I can sit in that thing for hours now and not feel uncomfortable. It also raises you up a notch for better vis.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Yakphisher said:


> I have negotiated class 2-3 rapids in Ultimate 12 and is ok if you use your head tho.


Unless you had that thing fully outfitted with skirts, I'm calling BS. Either that, or you had no gear and did some serious bailing after.


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

streamstalker said:


> Unless you had that thing fully outfitted with skirts, I'm calling BS. Either that, or you had no gear and did some serious bailing after.


No BS!! 

I had enough gear to fish all day!

Sure I had to get out a few time to get some water out and to negotiate the hard one but I got thru them.


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

streamstalker said:


> Native crows about how comfortable their seat is, but I actually couldn't take more than about 90 minutes in it before I was squirming all over trying to find a position that did not cause pain. I bought their lumbar pad and added two hunting pads to the seat and one to the back. I can sit in that thing for hours now and not feel uncomfortable. It also raises you up a notch for better vis.


I need to get one for my 9.5 as its still a bear on my back regardless.


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

SeanStone said:


> Id be lying if I said I wasnt a little jealous. Your back will appreciate it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Sweet kayak and have fun!!


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

shwookie said:


> How in the world can you say that a Moken 10 could handle Erie but a Coosa couldn't?
> 
> And again its only a poor paddling boat if you don't know how to paddle a boat properly. Take some classes, practice your stroke. Most guys fish and but a kayak thinking its easy, truth be told its much easier if you put in the practice to learn how to properly handle your boat.
> Good technique = good time.
> ...


Ahh!! so I am guessing you are to naïve enough to bash Moken without having real seat time in them. Only you can learn something if you tried it.
Coosa Is a poor boat regardless for control unless you want to spin around and around which has there place in faster rivers.

The Jackson seat was terrible on my back as there is no lower back support whatsoever! I had it on my old kayak so I know what I am talking about. but the gets the facts straight before you start bashing Feelfree seat! 
They are definitely much better and more comfortable for real fishing who fish many days a week which I am fortunate to do so. So I do know what is better.


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

StuckAtHome said:


> I've had the coosa in 3 foot waves on the ocean, in the high seat position, no worries, again have YOU paddled a coosa? How can you make these remarks when you have no idea?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Lake Erie is not like an Ocean! That's a really bad comparison!

Just ask the Ohio guys whom are firmly living in Florida.

Coosa is like playing spin doctor!


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## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

Yakphisher said:


> Coosa Is a poor boat regardless for control unless you want to spin around and around which has there place in faster rivers.
> 
> The Jackson seat was terrible on my back as there is no lower back support whatsoever!


I don't own a Coosa but several experienced Coosa creek users have taken it out onto the Atlantic and have been satisfied with it's performance. (I've never met a guy that didn't love his kayak  ) It would be a hassle with a strong quartering wind but lack of a hard keel would be a blessing in a strong current. Littoral current comes to mind. Hull design is all about tradeoffs, so we add skegs and rudders to try and mitigate that.

Seat preference is all about the users back. The Jackson seat is super comfy for me and I see many other manufacturers copying it. Like Neal I need lumbar support but don't have an issue with the Jackson seats.



Yakphisher said:


> Lake Erie is not like an Ocean! That's a really bad comparison!


Actually it qualifies as an inland sea and the comparison is valid. It's all about the wind anyway.


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## Old Rookie (Jun 21, 2013)

Watching this chat stream closely since I intend on buying a first kayak. So far what I have learned. There are a lot of good kayak choices and a lot of opinions on which is best. Any of them are better than none. If you don't like getting wet, don't buy one. Learn how to use it properly and how to handle yourself when trouble shows up. Get a lot of opinions, try them all and pick the one you like and don't look back.

Did I get it all? So, I am a Worthington guy. Any advice? Are there rental places aroung here to try them out? Best places to shop for one? Hope to get one picked out for my Christmas list (oK, I haven't been THAT good this year but a guy can hope). Maybe just a paddle.....


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

backlashed said:


> Seat preference is all about the users back. The Jackson seat is super comfy for me and I see many other manufacturers copying it. Like Neal I need lumbar support but don't have an issue with the Jackson seats.


Yeah, I have done no mods to my Jackson seat and am perfectly comfortable.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Yakphisher said:


> No BS!!
> 
> I had enough gear to fish all day!
> 
> Sure I had to get out a few time to get some water out and to negotiate the hard one but I got thru them.


Okay, I get it. _Negotiate_ is not exactly the same thing as _paddle_.


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## Yakphisher (Jul 9, 2013)

The need for a get together with all the different yaks out and just try the others out. Be fun! 

Not to get in to a disagreement on disagree so whatever you choose will be suitable no doubt as long as you enjoy it and have fun.


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