# Thinning Createx with Future



## jerkin (Apr 3, 2008)

I don't know how many of you guys have seen this but I was browsing youtube the other day looking for Solarfall's tutorials on airbrushing tips and found a video that talks about thinning your water based paints with future floor finish.

I tried it out this weekend and was impressed, the paint flows a lot nicer with way less tip dry and also drys harder. I was having a problem with Createx black where it would not dry hard and I had to be super careful when handling it and putting the netting over it to do scales, even after setting the paint with a hairdryer.

That problem has disappeared while using the future, all the paint drys nice and hard, almost like lacquer. Pledge took over the Future name so what you want is Pledge Floor Finish with Future. There are 2 kinds, one for wood floors and one for vinyl floors. I bought the one for wood floors but saw on another site where someone said they used the vinyl floor type because the wood floor brand was amber colored. The kind I bought for wood floors was as clear as the vinyl floor brand so I'm not sure what to think about that.

You can pick it up at Walmart and just dilute it about 50/50 with water. I've googled it since finding that video and it is mentioned on several airbrush sites as well as a lure building site or two. Try it out, in my opinion it works way better than water or windex.


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## puterdude (Jan 27, 2006)

Thanks for the tip,I'm going to give it a try.I have the same problem as well with the black.


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## triton175 (Feb 21, 2006)

How bad are the fumes? I use Createx in my basement without any additional ventilation. This sounds like a good idea, but I don't want to try it if an exhaust system is needed.


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## jerkin (Apr 3, 2008)

Triton, I'm in the same boat as you, in the basement with no additional ventilation and have not noticed any fumes. I think a bottle of the stuff was only $6 at wally-world so it won't hurt to try it and see how you like it. I still get tip dry but it has definitely improved since using this stuff.

Puterdude, night and day difference with the black. Sounds like you are having the same problem I had, I could barely touch the black or it would have fingerprints and smudges in it and if I wasn't careful pulling the netting off sometimes it would lift the paint in spots. The future cured that instantly and none of the colors I have tried it with are soft after heat setting.


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## Pikopath (Jan 18, 2009)

I also saw that thread and video about future, I will have to see if I can get it here...
As for black, I only use Golden Acrylics (not their airbrush colors, but Fluid acrylics), which I thin out with water and some windowcleaner stuff, its the best black color Ive used. Its called carbon black, it can be a pain to clean the brush sometimes.
I do have that tackyness with Createx brown and some others.

Michael


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## rjbass (Aug 1, 2007)

Jerkin,

I have tried the future floor finish and it is good, but I have been using the 4011 flash reducer from Auto Air for a while now and I like that better. I use the fast dry reducer and get cleaner lines and less overspray. They also make medium dry.

Pikopath, I use the golden Carbon Black also and it is awesome.....

Rod


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## Pikopath (Jan 18, 2009)

Yea, its actually blacker than black 
My main problem with it, and other paints for that matter, is that I have a compressor without a tank, so when I pause I have to let the airflow thru the nozzle, and that Golden paint, sticks a tad harder to the needle, so I always try to paint alot of black at the time.

Michael


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## GetTheNet (Jun 16, 2004)

Here's the link if you didn't see it.


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## Downriver Tackle (Jan 13, 2009)

From a paint and coatings chemist standpoint, I really have to wonder about adhesion of subsequent coats after using that as a thinner. Even though it is technically just a waterbased acrylic clear, Future, and any other floor finish for that matter, do contain silicone and wax additives to help protect the surface from scratching and marring. Those additives NO DOUBT at all affect adhesion negatively, but to what degree? It may not be evident right away using a clear like Devcon because of it's thickness and rigidness, but I'd bet that if you sprayed a thinner clear on a lure, it would have pretty poor adhesion and would fail and/or delaminate eventually. I had a customer dip his blank spinner blades in floor finish before to seal them (don't remember what brand) and it was like painting a freshly waxed car. Fisheyes EVERYWHERE!!!!! And even with epoxy, you could peel all the paint off as one layer from a fully painted and cured blade with ease and were left with a perfectly clean blank again.  

Not saying it is going to cause problems for sure, but it might be something you want to check. If I were doing a quick comparative test at work, I'd spray two baits black side by side. One thinned with water, one thinned with Future, then clear them both with a very thin layer of clear and fully cure. Then do an adhesion test. Easy one is to cut an X through all the layers of paint with a sharp razor blade, then press a small strip of duct or nylon tape over the X and rip the tape off quickly. You'll know if it fails! It is a good test to run any time you introduce a new paint product into your system. If you do fail a tape adhesion test, it is easy to see at which layer of paint the failure occured. Seems a very crude test, but it is the most commonly performed and accepted test in the paint and coatings industry.


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## sonar (Mar 20, 2005)

THANKS,Guys this is a real handy tip!!! I was searching for a "solution", and here it is ,right on good ole OGF,once again!!What a SITE!!! -----------sonar...................


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## sonar (Mar 20, 2005)

Downriver, I think you are right for the most part,however if you are using air brush, that is at most times a shade or highlight, coating,and the norm. there is probably the lightest coat you will apply? a little soap&water will solve the repelling effects @ that point,IMO.WHAT DO YOU THINK? ------------sonar..............


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## Downriver Tackle (Jan 13, 2009)

sonar said:


> Downriver, I think you are right for the most part,however if you are using air brush, that is at most times a shade or highlight, coating,and the norm. there is probably the lightest coat you will apply? a little soap&water will solve the repelling effects @ that point,IMO.WHAT DO YOU THINK? ------------sonar..............


 Yeah, I don't think it would be any problem at all with light shading or highlighting. My concern would be with a larger continuous surfaces, like running black down the back of a lure or a basecoat with any other color. I recomended black because any comprimised areas will be evident because they will turn white. Hard to say whether the soap and water would work. I would doubt it because you'd probably soften the Createx or screw up any fades before you got it all removed. But you never know. We are talking about a small amount of silicone and/or wax, so a light wash just might do it if it is causing adhesion issues. I usually keep unrepairable lures around(broken bills, etc) to do adhesion tests on if I'm trying something new. For you carvers, keep a sealed chunk of scrap wood around to do tests on. With all the work some people put into a carved bait, there's nothing more disappointing than seeing your creation fall apart after all that work. Been there, done that!


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## jerkin (Apr 3, 2008)

I've done adhesion tests at a test lab that I worked for a few years back but the way I remember the test you didn't cut an x and rip the tape off. I'm going back a few years but the way I remember it is you cross-hatched the surface with a razor knife, similar to a tic tac toe board so that there were individual squares with no paint holding them together. When you removed the tape you would flip it back on itself and pull slowly at 180 degrees then count the number of squares that lifted or partially lifted.

There is an ASTM spec. for it somewhere but I don't have access to that information anymore. It would be a good test to try if there were any concern of adhesion issues but you would definitely need a control sample. Maybe just primer one side of a 2x4 and then spray separate areas with paint thinned with water, windex, Future and the 4011 reducer Rod mentioned.

It would be best to keep the squares the same size on all samples for consistency maybe by laying down pencil lines with a combination square at 1/8" or so as a guide. Good idea Downriver, I might try it with some of my cheap Walmart paint if I can find some of the reducer Rod uses, hate to waste my Createx, lol.


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## bowhunter29 (Dec 13, 2008)

How does this stuff (if at all) affect the epoxy topcoat? Silicone and epoxy do not mix!

jeremy


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## jerkin (Apr 3, 2008)

I have only put one coat of etex on top of paint I mixed with the floor finish so far and no issues. I will be doing some more this week and will let you guys know if anything comes up. I took a minute to call J&J's product information line to get the scoop on this since several people have questioned it. They told me that the product is based on polymers and contains no silicones or waxes.

I don't think there are any issues with using this product as a reducer because after I watched the video I googled it and found several airbrush sites and at least one tackle site talking about it and nobody mentioned experiencing any problems with it. Rod also said he tried it before and it worked but he liked the 4011 better.


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## Downriver Tackle (Jan 13, 2009)

jerkin said:


> I've done adhesion tests at a test lab that I worked for a few years back but the way I remember the test you didn't cut an x and rip the tape off. I'm going back a few years but the way I remember it is you cross-hatched the surface with a razor knife, similar to a tic tac toe board so that there were individual squares with no paint holding them together. When you removed the tape you would flip it back on itself and pull slowly at 180 degrees then count the number of squares that lifted or partially lifted.
> 
> There is an ASTM spec. for it somewhere but I don't have access to that information anymore. It would be a good test to try if there were any concern of adhesion issues but you would definitely need a control sample. Maybe just primer one side of a 2x4 and then spray separate areas with paint thinned with water, windex, Future and the 4011 reducer Rod mentioned.
> 
> It would be best to keep the squares the same size on all samples for consistency maybe by laying down pencil lines with a combination square at 1/8" or so as a guide. Good idea Downriver, I might try it with some of my cheap Walmart paint if I can find some of the reducer Rod uses, hate to waste my Createx, lol.


 It's ASTM 3359

There's two methods though. Method A is the X test used for screening and formulating and is pass or fail. Method B is the cross hatch version used to quantify the results by counting squares. It's used in specifications. B is probably more severe of the two. I was trying to keep it simple. Making cross hatches are a PAIN! I can probably count on one hand how many good ones I've done freehand in 20 years. Use a scribing tool or forget it. LOL Plus, to do it the correct ASTM way, you need a specif 3M tape. Duct works fine for me at home.


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## Downriver Tackle (Jan 13, 2009)

jerkin said:


> I have only put one coat of etex on top of paint I mixed with the floor finish so far and no issues. I will be doing some more this week and will let you guys know if anything comes up. I took a minute to call J&J's product information line to get the scoop on this since several people have questioned it. They told me that the product is based on polymers and contains no silicones or waxes.
> 
> I don't think there are any issues with using this product as a reducer because after I watched the video I googled it and found several airbrush sites and at least one tackle site talking about it and nobody mentioned experiencing any problems with it. Rod also said he tried it before and it worked but he liked the 4011 better.


 Like I said, it might not be any issue because it's such a small amount. But don't put too much faith in what the phone jockeys tell you at J&J or any other company for that matter. If you're not speaking to someone in the formulating lab, take anything you're told with a grain of salt! I can tell you 1000000% they misinformed you. They just regurgitated their marketing scheme of it being a polymer and not a wax. You CANNOT have a waterbased acrylic of that type without silicone wetting aids. Very close to impossible! Those types don't cause adhesion issues, but for them to say it contains no silicone is false. I know I'm splitting hairs, but I'm just trying to make a point about tech phone jocks. 3/4 of the time, they're querying a database as you're talking and responding with what their computer screen tells them to say. LOL I know, I did it for a while between jobs. As much as I knew the info I was telling them was sketchy or untrue, I couldn't say anything or I'd lose my job.


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## gunnr (Jan 30, 2010)

bowhunter29 said:


> How does this stuff (if at all) affect the epoxy topcoat? Silicone and epoxy do not mix!
> 
> jeremy


Jeremy, I've been using future for awhile now and it makes a big difference on how well the paint flows. I have been using D2T and diamond II (thanks to you) for topcoats and haven't had a problem with either. Both of these were painted with the future and both have 4 coats of diamond II.


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## Fish With Teeth (Mar 1, 2008)

I have used Future also with Createx paints and Etex top coats. I have had no problems so far!


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## ShutUpNFish (Apr 17, 2007)

Nice tip here....thanks!


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