# Fracking pollution in the Ohio



## Carver (Jan 20, 2010)

There is a local college that has been doing a study of the water quality in this area. They are taking water samples a couple of times a week.
They are finding brine in the water below the Pike Island dam. And they are probably finding in their other tests. They said that Wheeling Creek is particularly bad and no wonder it drains an area that is covered with wells.

I don't know how far up and down the river they are testing. But consider the creeks that run into the Ohio River are draining the watersheds that are covered with wells. And I suppose all of them are polluted to one extent to another.

Captine Creek is also polluted but it is from a mine slurry pond.

I do not know if the EPA is involved with the testing or if they are even aware of the problem. 

And now they are going to start drilling under the river.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Ughs. That is some scary stuff there!

Not like I didn't expect there to be problems with fracking though.....


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

Huh. There's salt washing into the river in winter time. Who'da thunk it???


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## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

chadwimc said:


> Huh. There's salt washing into the river in winter time. Who'da thunk it???


I was thinking the same thing...


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## Carver (Jan 20, 2010)

This is not winter salt. This testing has been going on since late summer It is fracking brine, no doubt about it. I guess time will tell. This is not a tall tale, I would not post anything of this nature on this forum unless I was sure about it. Take a ride to Pike Island and talk to the guys that hang out up on top, they can tell you more than I can. Or we can just blow it off until the river turns into the Dead Sea.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

Carver said:


> This is not winter salt. This testing has been going on since late summer It is fracking brine, no doubt about it.


How are they sure it's from fracking? Did they have a baseline, from say 1850, before oil production in the Ohio headwaters? You do realize one of the largest salt deposits in North America was the Ohio River?

Below copied from:http://www.courtstreetgrill.com/history.html

Salt & Coal Mines:
The river city of Pomeroy became a very important port for river trade and because of its salt, bromine, and coal. Names like Excelsior Salt, White Rock Salt, Ohio River Salt, and The Plains Mills were some of the large salt producing companies. In 1943,* Ohio was the third largest salt producing state in the US,* topped only by New York and Michigan. Coal mining became a big industry in Meigs County in the early 1930&#8217;s.

And, related West Virginia history about Ohio River tributaries:
http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/168


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## afishinfool (Feb 1, 2014)

Does it matter WHERE the salt is coming from??? If its in the river it cant be good for the fish. But dont worry about fracking Saudi Arabia will put most fracking companies out of business.


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

There was brine in the rivers and creeks when the ****** roamed the place...


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

Hmmmmmm... where did I put that soap box?? It wold be so easy to jump in here. 'spose I'll just get back to work...


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## cheezemm2 (Apr 7, 2004)

I would be interested in hearing more about this story. There is a pretty clear distinction in your typical road salt versus horizontal drilling flowback water. Heck, there are even some half-life (radioactive) materials in flowback. Unfortunately for an under-developed area and a new industry with limited oversight, this can be caused be a number of things if true.

Do you have links or sources?

1) Poorly constructed injection wells could already be cracked
2) Contract truck drivers who are paid by the load, not wanting to take the time to go to the injection well (e.g. If any of you have visited some of the locations wheeling creek flows through, you'd see how easy it is to find some backroad for a dumping area)

Also, as part of the drilling process, salinity of water is key. If the salt PPM is too high, it clogs the flow of gas from fracturing. Maybe someone is pumping salt out while pulling freshwater in to dilute their salinity?

There are lots of very good books about this stuff that tell you about the process, the environmental impacts, and the economic impacts. If you want titles, PM me, but there's quite a bit of education available.


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## RodMan (Apr 6, 2004)

I would like to see this study as well - is anyone aware of a link or webpage?


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## Carver (Jan 20, 2010)

This is what I originally posted. I talked to a person who had just taken a sample of the water below the dam face to face. The information I posted is what he told me. I did not ask about internet access because I heard enough. There have been others at the dam who have talked to the these people also and have been given the same information.
We are talking about fracking brine and not just the salt content of the Ohio River or any other body of water. The individual I talked to called the brine a "toxic soup".

There is a local college that has been doing a study of the water quality in this area. They are taking water samples a couple of times a week.
They are finding brine in the water below the Pike Island dam. And they are probably finding in their other tests. They said that Wheeling Creek is particularly bad and no wonder it drains an area that is covered with wells.


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## plybon72 (Mar 9, 2014)

Curious how quick some are to dismiss this. And Outdoors people at that.

I do not know one way or another but even the hint demands a closer look IMO.


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

From this site...

http://www.oldeforester.com/saltrprt.htm



Christopher Gist, a professional surveyor and explorer for The Ohio Company of Virginia (not the later Ohio Company from New England who settled Marietta) was sent on an exploratory trip into the Ohio Country in the winter of 1750-51. His journal (Ref. 5) records his interest in salt springs and describes their characteristics as they appeared in Native American Indian times. Speaking of the Licking River west of modern Zanesville, Ohio, we quote, "Set out SW 25M, to Licking Creek--The Land from Muskingum to this Place rich but broken--Upon the N Side of Licking Creek about 6M from the Mouth, are several Salt Licks, or Ponds, formed by a little Streams of Dreins of Water, clear but of a blueish Colour, & salt Taste the Traders and Indians boil their Meat in this Water, which (if proper Care be not taken) will sometimes make it too salty to eat."


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

chadwimc said:


> From this site...
> 
> http://www.oldeforester.com/saltrprt.htm
> 
> ...



The words "salt" and "brine" are generic and are certainly not synonyms. Based on geology, ohio's rivers are "salty" with some areas having elevated Ca, Na, etc. but you can also have increased "salty" water with regards to pollution. A stream in ohio can have a background conductivity (saltiness) of 500 (high compared to other areas) and things are just fine. Add more salts the system could go unchanged or it could die. Depends on what the "salts" are. This is not table sat and this brine is not what you soak your turkey in.


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

plybon72 said:


> Curious how quick some are to dismiss this. And Outdoors people at that.
> 
> I do not know one way or another but even the hint demands a closer look IMO.


Some just dismiss unfounded internet rumors. Cite a source, I'll look at it. But, I'll also look at the background of the source. If its a hippy, feel good, American society is bad source, I'll pass.


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

I Fish said:


> How are they sure it's from fracking? Did they have a baseline, from say 1850, before oil production in the Ohio headwaters?


Not necessary to find a relationship with modern activities. 3-5 years pre-activity would be more than enough baseline data if comparing levels of common stuff. If they are finding oddball organics, radioactive materials, or salts used in the actual process you could make a reasonable argument with no baseline data especially those same things are not found in near by watersheds. They do all kinds of crazy things with isotopes and tracers these days.


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## plybon72 (Mar 9, 2014)

chadwimc said:


> Some just dismiss unfounded internet rumors. Cite a source, I'll look at it. But, I'll also look at the background of the source. If its a hippy, feel good, American society is bad source, I'll pass.



Those "hippies" are the reason you have more than sickly carp and catfish to catch out of the Ohio river. Perhaps you are too young to remember but I recall the days when the mighty O was little but a sewer.


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

plybon72 said:


> Those "hippies" are the reason you have more than sickly carp and catfish to catch out of the Ohio river. Perhaps you are too young to remember but I recall the days when the mighty O was little but a sewer.


Richard Nixon was a hippy?
Who'da thunk it???


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Ahhhh, good old Emmett Conway.

Have had some e-mail conversations with him in the past. Great guy! Rest his soul.


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## Carver (Jan 20, 2010)

Good grief!! What have I started ??


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

I don't have a dog in the fracking fight, due to a lack of accurate information on it. It's def an issue people feel strongly for or against, and most articles and info I do read seem biased to me in one way or the other. Any time there is money involved, it's hard to separate fact from fiction.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

creekcrawler said:


> Ahhhh, good old Emmett Conway.
> 
> Have had some e-mail conversations with him in the past. Great guy! Rest his soul.


I was going to say the same thing. He was indeed a great guy. I was fortunate enough to talk with him a few times over the years.


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## Bluewalleye (Jun 1, 2009)

And global warming is still being reported as a fact. And evolution is still being taught in schools as fact.... And so on... and so on.... and so on...... We are lied to everyday by people who have an agenda. It is up to you which lie you want to believe... Believe it or not there is a political party out there that hates gas prices being under $2 a gallon.... Fact


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

Still no objective source cited? Or did I miss the research?


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

chadwimc said:


> Still no objective source cited? Or did I miss the research?


Since data collection is on going I assume the manuscript has not yet been published. I have attached a few PRIMARY resources published in the past 2-3 years (I hope they are open access). These are primarily done in PA but I have a feeling more will be out from Ohio in short order. The notion that fracking is without serious consequences is asinine. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

A brief synopsis:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rem.21390/pdf
Natural migration of brine to shallow aquifers:
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/30/11961.abstract
Methane contamination of drinking water:
http://sites.biology.duke.edu/jackson/pnas2011.html
Stray gas in drinking water wells:
http://sites.nicholas.duke.edu/avnervengosh/files/2012/12/PNAS_Jacksonetal2013.pdf


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## Neo (Jun 29, 2013)

Hmmm 3 of the articles written by pretty much the same people from places like "
Center on Global Change" If that doesn't raise the BS flag I don't know what does.


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)




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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

Neo said:


> Hmmm 3 of the articles written by pretty much the same people from places like "
> Center on Global Change" If that doesn't raise the BS flag I don't know what does.


PNAS is a highly respected journal that publishes primary, peer-reviewed research articles. A little more credible than blogs, editorials, and opinions pieces IMHO. 

Please support your skepticism of the papers and institutions (Duke, Yale). Was the study design flawed? How would you interpret the results differently? Do you propose an alternative isotope mixing model? Or is it just because it goes against your opinions? These are far from the only published articles showing the same thing. I figures that since they were open source you would be able to access them without paying. I do not have the time or desire to compose a complete lit review but two have been cited at least 140 times which is an impressive accomplishment in less than 3 years.


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## Neo (Jun 29, 2013)

Well let's put this to the smell test. Given the current powers to be and their position on fossil fuels do you honestly think if there was one shred of empirical data showing showing contamination from fracking that there wouldn't be an Executive Order outright banning it. So while I don't have the credentials of the Libtards cited in those articles I do have what's called common sense and from some of the post in this thread it's just reaffirms my belief that it not to common anymore.


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## plybon72 (Mar 9, 2014)

Frack, don't frack, is neither here nor there to the original post.

The point was that a study seemed to show a certain type of pollution in the river. IMO, any hint of such or any type of pollution should be investigated vigorously and intentional violators "strung up" on the legal "tree". 
Some people do not seem to share that POV and dismiss, offhand, the notion that this pollution exists. 

I find this very odd among a group of people who might self identify as outdoors folk. --No matter their political affiliations(s). 

I guess that might come from my own definition of what being and outdoors person is. I tend to think of them as being not "rapers and takers", nor "tree hugging hippies", but rather as Conversationalists who support the wise and careful use of our public resources.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Wow, this thread got ugly.
And it all started with a harmless, informative post.

Libtards? Seriously, as soon as some one says things like that, I quit listening.

In my opinion, fracking is very profitable and they will force it down our throats because of that. 
Ohio has some of the most lenient laws regarding fracking and waste disposal in the country. That's why other states are already sending fracking wastes to Ohio for disposal
into injection wells.


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

creekcrawler said:


> In my opinion, fracking is very profitable and they will force it down our throats because of that.
> Ohio has some of the most lenient laws regarding fracking and waste disposal in the country. That's why other states are already sending fracking wastes to Ohio for disposal
> into injection wells.


2x 
We need more data.


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## plybon72 (Mar 9, 2014)

Perhaps it might be helpful to note that "fracking brine" is not just salty water. 
It begins as a chemical soup the contents of which we do not even know due to trade secret laws.

Then, as waste "water" after drilling, it has picked up many different types of natural substances and concentrates them. Things such as toxic metals and radioactive radium.

"... Radium in one sample of Marcellus shale wastewater, also called brine, that Pennsylvania officials collected in 2009 was 3,609 times more radioactive than a federal safety limit for drinking water. It was 300 times higher than a Nuclear Regulatory Commission limit for industrial discharges to water...."

So, we are not talking about just runoff from a salt lick, this stuff can be heavy duty nasty.


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## Carver (Jan 20, 2010)

When I posted this topic I expected some negativity, but I am shocked by the number of "outdoors men" who have just tried to blow it off as nothing at all or just road salt. I suppose it is easy to challenge the validity or accuracy of this information because it was an eye witness report and not supported by documentation. But what would I or anyone else hope to gain by making up a story like that ?
I keep reading posts about how bad the river fishing has been this year as compared to 2013 which was a banner year on the river. I agree fishing has been very bad, particularly small-mouth and sauger. And the reports of the scarcity of shad.. Is it a natural occurrence or a cycle of nature ? Or is it a serious unnatural condition ? I don't know, could be any of the three.
I am amazed and sickened at times at the total lack of respect that some people have for our outdoors. This is why I carry trash bags in my boat. I have cleaned up marinas, the ramps, parking area, and picnic area, and the docks where people fish and are not supposed to. Same applies to the areas around the damns along the river. I have walked the banks and found the remnants of last nights camp fire with trash strewn all around it. Beer cans, pop cans, cigarette packs, Styrofoam cups, empty snuff containers. I guess I could just write that off as a bunch of feel good hippies smoking pot and partying all night. But the two items that I find that really bother me are empty bait containers and monofilament line. Only fishermen would leave that behind.
I can also remember when the river was a sewer. It was a stinking , filthy, unhealthy mess. Raw sewage flowed from the creeks and floated down stream. Oil slicks that covered everything they touched. And in the hot weather it stunk real bad. I never want to see that happen again
I was hoping that by posting this there would be enough interested true sportsman who would write to the DNR of their respective states and the EPA. That would not take any longer than writing a post or a reply on this forum.
This topic has run it's course and has been taken over by a few who want to give the truly concerned a hard time. As for more information, I doubt that any of them understand what has already been posted.
If it is in the river, it will be in the lakes soon. The MWCD has sold out to the drilling companies.


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

There has never been a political debate in the history of mankind that did not end up in a name calling, abusive shouting match. OGF, in all their wisdom, knew this ahead of time and therefore set rules to help limit the inevitable ugliness that is to come. There are a million other places where people can go online to discuss politics, where nothing is edited, and every point of view is more than welcome.


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## plybon72 (Mar 9, 2014)

Carver said:


> I can also remember when the river was a sewer. It was a stinking , filthy, unhealthy mess. Raw sewage flowed from the creeks and floated down stream. Oil slicks that covered everything they touched. And in the hot weather it stunk real bad. I never want to see that happen again
> .



Yep, having to clean oil scum off the hull every time we pulled the boat out made quite an impression on me as a youngster. 
I am glad that younger people never had to deal with that mess but you would think the residuals from that time would be enough to make a cleaner river a priority for them. ( once again, regardless of politics) 

The Mighty O is 100 times cleaner than it was but you need look no further than the consumption advisories in the State fishing regulations handbooks to see that we still have a very long way to go.


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## I Fish (Sep 24, 2008)

Bluewalleye said:


> And global warming is still being reported as a fact. And evolution is still being taught in schools as fact.... And so on... and so on.... and so on...... We are lied to everyday by people who have an agenda. It is up to you which lie you want to believe... Believe it or not there is a political party out there that hates gas prices being under $2 a gallon.... Fact


X2. Some people are tired of all the doom and gloom projections of man made disaster. I live near some of the protestors that have been arrested. They always have these stories about what could/would/may/might/potentially/maybe happen, all with no basis in fact. Many of the stories they tell are out right lies at worst, stretching of the truth at best. We as a country are always being asked to trade our financial security for a clean environment, all the while allowing other countries to continue their environmental destruction. China comes to mind. We stop using coal, China increases its use because demand is down therefore it is cheaper. How did that help the environment?

Now, when faced with what could be a problem, I want proof, not I heard, or this could/would/may/might/potentially/maybe happen.

I do agree though. Injection wells are our biggest liability, with landfills being a close second.


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

creekcrawler said:


> Wow, this thread got ugly.
> And it all started with a harmless, informative post.



Sorry. I have a short fuse when someone more or less accuses those in my line of work of being frauds. And when you present data to support a claim but dismissed as a hoax because "your gut" says it doesn't pass the smell test.


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## toboso (Apr 14, 2004)

A few useful & reputable links from the industrial perspective:

www.vanashingzero.org 

www.marcelluscoalition.org

FWIW, the Marcellus Coalition modeled much of its operating principles after SOCMA, a highly respected chemical industry trade association.

We do need all voices to be heard because this is a complex equation and the cost of failure (contaminated rivers, drinking water) _might _not be worth the risk. It's also possible that the risks have been properly mitigated. "Measure once, cut twice" applies even in science/engineering.

Remember to also "follow the money"--that will help you decide how much B.S. you're being fed. Applies to research/academia, legislators, proponents, and dissidents equally.


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## sd136405 (Jan 19, 2015)

toboso said:


> A few useful & reputable links from the industrial perspective:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could not have said it any better. For the record, I am not against cracking. I just am concerned about the speed of development and Ohio's almost no exist any regs regarding disposal.


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## chadwimc (Jun 27, 2007)

Carver said:


> When I posted this topic I expected some negativity, but I am shocked by the number of "outdoors men" who have
> I can also remember when the river was a sewer. It was a stinking , filthy, unhealthy mess. Raw sewage flowed from the creeks and floated down stream. Oil slicks that covered everything they touched. And in the hot weather it stunk real bad. I never want to see that happen again
> I was hoping that by posting this there would be enough interested true sportsman who would write to the DNR of their respective states and the EPA. That would not take any longer than writing a post or a reply on this forum.
> .


The EPA was started by an evil, rich Republican...


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## plybon72 (Mar 9, 2014)

chadwimc said:


> The EPA was started by an evil, rich Republican...



I will give you that he was evil. Well, not evil but borderline traitorous (Watergate), even created the EPA by executive order, but the laws that sparked a need for the EPA were spearheaded by dems. 

The dems got interested on account of "hippies" getting interested and publicizing the issue along with a few well timed environmental incidents that got the attention of John Q Public.


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## KaGee (Sep 8, 2006)

Carver said:


> Good grief!! What have I started ??





All Eyes said:


> There has never been a political debate in the history of mankind that did not end up in a name calling, abusive shouting match. OGF, in all their wisdom, knew this ahead of time and therefore set rules to help limit the inevitable ugliness that is to come. There are a million other places where people can go online to discuss politics, where nothing is edited, and every point of view is more than welcome.


As he said, these conversations never end well. They always turn political because it's politics that is driving the public discourse on both extremes.
It's not that this topic isn't worthy of discussion, but the owners of this site wish for the discussion take place someplace else.
Subject closed.


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