# Fingerprinted at school by force



## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

Today my son came home from high school and told me that the entire student body had to submit to fingerprinting, they were told that if they refused they would not receive lunch until they did. They were told this was being done to speed up the lunch line and prevent another kid from using their lunch account. As a side note they were told it would help the school administration solve crimes of theft, destruction and other acts.
My thought is that this is over the top wrong or is this completely acceptable common practice these days.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

This is outrageous! From your post I'm getting the idea that the school admin did this with absolutely no parental involvement whatsoever, and that they sprung it on the kids with no prior warning. Yet, I have to wonder how long it took them to put the plan in place! Shades of Nazi Germany, except now we have high school student standing in for the Jews!


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## freyedknot (Apr 10, 2004)

call civil liberties union,see what they say. sounds like illegal coersion to me.


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

buckeyebowman said:


> This is outrageous! From your post I'm getting the idea that the school admin did this with absolutely no parental involvement whatsoever, and that they sprung it on the kids with no prior warning. Yet, I have to wonder how long it took them to put the plan in place! Shades of Nazi Germany, except now we have high school student standing in for the Jews!


But we never seen it, I would have thought that something that important should have been mailed to the house instead of sent home with the students. Kids do tend to forget things.


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## bountyhunter (Apr 28, 2004)

its just down right wrong, somebody is in hot water.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

I would have not eaten lunch then because I wouldnt have done it. Like they couldnt put the kids picture on the lunch card. I think this is way out of line. Bad enough that kids have to walk through metal detectors just to enter the school as they walk past the police officer. Wow have times changed!


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Unless you are law enforcement and the juvinile has committed a crime you MUST have parental permission to even interview them. They are in the wrong for what they did especially how they did it. 

Not sure there is a criminal element to it but there sure as heck is a civil element. 

Here's how you get them to admit they did it and the resin for doing it. Go to the school and fill out a Freedom of Information act requesti/public records request asking for all policies and procedures regarding the collection of fingerprints from the kids.

1) they give it to you and prove your civil case assuming you did not give permission at any time for your kids prints to be take..

2) they deny it happened in which case you file police reports for people pretending to be law enforcement and have the police take over. Then band together with other patents and start a group civil suit.

There is great case law against what you think happened. Get the ball rolling ASAP before those prints make it into a database you don't know about and cannot get them out of. Make the school pay for it too!
Good luck!

Lastly, get the ear of anyone that will listen and tell them you want the jobs of anyone in the know about this situation and then get a hold of the news they'll eat this up!

Mr. A


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

shroomhunter said:


> But we never seen it, I would have thought that something that important should have been mailed to the house instead of sent home with the students. Kids do tend to forget things.


Hmmm! It would seem to me that when your son informed you that they had been fingerprinted at school under duress, it would have jogged his memory about a note being sent home with him! Either a note was sent, or it wasn't. In either case it seems to me that a parent's signature would be required to have one of their minor children be fingerprinted! I'd do some checking if I were you.



bountyhunter said:


> its just down right wrong, somebody is in hot water.


Or at least they ought to be! This is monstrous! 



Flathead76 said:


> I would have not eaten lunch then because I wouldnt have done it. Like they couldnt put the kids picture on the lunch card. I think this is way out of line. Bad enough that kids have to walk through metal detectors just to enter the school as they walk past the police officer. Wow have times changed!


I can understand your feelings, but with all the school shootings lately I can kind of understand the metal detectors and cops. But to submit to fingerprinting strikes me as a little too personal. If they can get away with this, how long will it be till we are all expected to submit to fingerprinting to help solve crimes of "burglary and/or vandalism"! "Minority Report" anyone? BTW, I wouldn't have eaten lunch either. If the parents had been warned about this, I would hope that a lot more kids would have been brown bagging their lunch. Who knows? Maybe the "Brown Baggers" would have become as much of a symbol of patriotism as the "Minutemen"!


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## puge (May 14, 2009)

Contact local TV news stations. They would eat this kind of thing up.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

shroomhunter said:


> Today my son came home from high school and told me that the entire student body had to submit to fingerprinting, they were told that if they refused they would not receive lunch until they did. They were told this was being done to speed up the lunch line and prevent another kid from using their lunch account. As a side note they were told it would help the school administration solve crimes of theft, destruction and other acts.
> My thought is that this is over the top wrong or is this completely acceptable common practice these days.


What about kids that brownbag?


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Totally unacceptable! I would handle it through a third party as your child would be targeted by school administration and faculty by you acting alone.
TV, anonymous, is the way I would see if the station was interested. Other way would be a group of parents via legal representation.


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## billorp (Aug 25, 2007)

First thing I would have done is have a serious talk with my son, second, i would have called my lawyer, third, I would have been at the school demanding to speak to the principal, lastly I would have entered a post like this for public support/feedback. But that's just me.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Apparently, this has been going on for quite a while. Here is a TIME article from 2007: http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1665119,00.html


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

Snakecharmer said:


> What about kids that brownbag?


My son said that they were called out of class individually into the hallway where there was a table with 2 workers. They had them place their finger over an electronic scanner. From what he told us there were some that refused at first, they were sent to the office, what was said to them I do not know but eventually everyone had to submit.
We are looking into this today, and possibly contacting an attorney. We want to be sure we didn't sign something when we were bombarded with tons of papers at the beginning of the school year. We want to be certain we have our facts straight before going further. It sounded pretty scary hearing my son tell how this all went down, the bottom line is I dO NOT remember signing any type of consent form and I can guarantee my wife didn't. We would have had a discussion if either of us had been presented this form, not that we have irrational conspiracy theories but forced fingerprinting kids at school is just a step too far to us.

What gets me is how many of the parents think this is a great idea to protect little Johnny or Jilly's lunch account from theft by other students. They have student ID cards with name, photo and barcode on the back, why didn't they just use those. If the administration starts harrassing him I'll simply move him to another school or he can be home schooled.
I just want his print out of the system, no private or public entity needs that information.

Before I call the news stations I want to hear what they have to say, if they refuse to discuss then it's game on, let the news teams have at it.


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## icebucketjohn (Dec 22, 2005)

No qualms whatsoever about fingerprinting them. Quit your whining about personal rights.

Heck, its for their benefit & safety too. If my child happened to be involved in some school-type vandalism or crime, I'd hope they catch him. "BOOK 'EM DANO"


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I don't see that big of deal with the printing. Threatening to not feed the kids if they don't comply is just plain wrong. That's a legal issue to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

icebucketjohn said:


> No qualms whatsoever about fingerprinting them. Quit your whining about personal rights.
> 
> Heck, its for their benefit & safety too. If my child happened to be involved in some school-type vandalism or crime, I'd hope they catch him. "BOOK 'EM DANO"


Why such an incendiary post? If you would allow your children to be finger printed by an entity you don't know (I doubt the workers were actually from the school) when you don't believe you gave permission, then it's up to you.

What he is not doing is "whining." He gathering information and looking into the matter. Also, if you don't agree with someone being concerned about personal rights, you are more than free to give up yours, just don't complain when others are more cautious than you.

Mr. A


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

icebucketjohn said:


> No qualms whatsoever about fingerprinting them. Quit your whining about personal rights.
> 
> Heck, its for their benefit & safety too. If my child happened to be involved in some school-type vandalism or crime, I'd hope they catch him. "BOOK 'EM DANO"


That's why I put it on here to see if I was being overly paranoid. My biggest concern would be that if the fingerprint and a social security number are filed into a database together that info could be compromised. A classic example in recent history is the Target system hacking. If someone got ahold of all this info the credit and lives of these kids could be at risk.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

icebucketjohn said:


> No qualms whatsoever about fingerprinting them. Quit your whining about personal rights.
> 
> Heck, its for their benefit & safety too. If my child happened to be involved in some school-type vandalism or crime, I'd hope they catch him. "BOOK 'EM DANO"


Maybe they should have grabbed a DNA sample while they were at it?

And also a microchip to make sure they aren't cutting classes....


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## Fishingisfun (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear about what happened at your child's school without your permission. Im concerned about what was said to the children that initially refused. What was said to coerce them into complying. Contact you state and local politicians if they feel this May effect their electability they will get involved. I would also contact US representatives you will talk to a assistant but it will make it to the official once it makes the local news. Again electability becomes their concern. The next time your local PTA meets it would be good for a large number of equally concerned partents and grandparents show up for the meeting. Tip off the local media so they know to send a reporter seeing it on the news will alert other parents of what their children forgot to tell them about school that day. At the meeting it is the time to bring up your concerns which will likely sway others to reconsider the policy. Unauthorized use of personal information hacked from the school with finger prints goes above their reasons for doing this. I think the finger printers will tell you the reason for this is your child's security and that is their concern. I feel until our children are of legal age to give their own permission the parent or guardian should have the right solely to have fingerprint information. Our children have rights but educators seem to view their positions as surrogate parental control, law enforcement and decide for the parent what is done while they have control of the child. Remember school boards are elected and can be replaced by the voters. Elect like minded board members or better yet run for the office yourself. It is not a volunteer position without compensation as most believe. The insiders don't talk about what they receive. Like fisherman they don't talk about the position benefits so the competition is less. 
If you watch the news strip searches have occured in public schools at times in an attempt to find missing property. It make the news when a parent finally says enough and goes public. Some schools ID cards have chips embedded so they can track students. Kids figured it out but what may be next if we don't say no. If you have a child or grandchild in school you owe them to be involved and speak out. Takes time away from fishing but it is what America is about freedom won and preserved by every man and woman's evolvement. 
Keep us updated. Thanks for posting.


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## Hetfieldinn (May 17, 2004)

Snakecharmer said:


> What about kids that brownbag?


It was probably pizza day.


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## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

those that sacrifice their freedoms for security, deserve neither.


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## T-180 (Oct 18, 2005)

No qualms whatsover ??!! What they did was absolutely wrong & needs to stop. My kids would be headed to another school while I pursued this as far as possible.
However, let the sheep be led to slaughter.


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## Slatebar (Apr 9, 2011)

I think I would be upset about this same as the OP. Sad that we live in a state where (as I read the laws) the only officials that can be recalled is pretty much Township Trustees and Dog Catchers. Higher up elected officials and School board members of untouchables when it comes to recalls. Also sad that an ID is required to eat lunch but not to vote..


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

_The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing._

-Edmund Burke

Please keep this updated.


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

This is another in a long line of stories of how ridiculous public schools are and how much they're turning into prison mentality. Obey.

I'm sorry that this happened. "Its for your child's safety and benefit." I love when Pravda spins it like that.


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## BrianSipe17 (Aug 5, 2006)

Many schools are implementing biometric scanners in their lunch lines, to make it a more efficient process. It also means the kids don't have to carry a lunch ticket. Account balances are debited after the scan. That is today's world. Many systems like this don't even save your actual fingerprint, they scan it and convert it to an algorithm that identifies you when you return. That would be no help in catching crimes. I would honestly be surprised if this system is keeping the actual fingerprint data.

I remember way back in the day, we were finger printed before starting kindergarten. I honestly don't see the big deal. It's not like the schools are planting GPS' up the kid's rear ends. I am sensitive about my freedom, but am sensible at the same time. This is not some conspiracy theory.


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## flounder (May 15, 2004)

Doesn't sound right at all....contact the Ohio Department Of Education and see what they have to say about it.


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## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

What school district was this? Sorry if I missed it.


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## Nubes (Dec 3, 2012)

shroomhunter said:


> My son said that they were called out of class individually into the hallway where there was a table with 2 workers. They had them place their finger over an electronic scanner. From what he told us there were some that refused at first, they were sent to the office, what was said to them I do not know but eventually everyone had to submit.
> We are looking into this today, and possibly contacting an attorney. We want to be sure we didn't sign something when we were bombarded with tons of papers at the beginning of the school year. We want to be certain we have our facts straight before going further. It sounded pretty scary hearing my son tell how this all went down, the bottom line is I dO NOT remember signing any type of consent form and I can guarantee my wife didn't. We would have had a discussion if either of us had been presented this form, not that we have irrational conspiracy theories but forced fingerprinting kids at school is just a step too far to us.
> 
> What gets me is how many of the parents think this is a great idea to protect little Johnny or Jilly's lunch account from theft by other students. They have student ID cards with name, photo and barcode on the back, why didn't they just use those. If the administration starts harrassing him I'll simply move him to another school or he can be home schooled.
> ...




He must be scarred for life! I cant imagine what he must have went through?? LOL seriously, unless he's up to something whats the big deal?? This could help keep crime down within the school. I wouldn't have a problem with it


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## ying6 (Apr 21, 2004)

Unless you are law enforcement and the juvinile has committed a crime you MUST have parental permission to even interview them. They are in the wrong for what they did especially how they did it. 
- This is not correct Mr. A. (for many many reasons)

What I would do is make sure the entire story was given to you and then call the school and speak to an administrator. I would suspect if this was not done correctly there have been numerous calls and meetings on this.

As for solving crimes in schools, I wish there was a way to take fingerprints and be able to do an entire CSI breakdown of an event, but honestly there are no funds for that.

Looking at it from a food service standpoint, I think they probably tried to have a fingerprint put on file so they could keep better records to give the proper money to students for lunches. Honestly I think that was probably it. (but I wouldn't hesitate giving them a call)


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Ying, I don't mind being wrong, but if you assert emphatically I am wrong please be courteous enough to explain you position. I will admit that I should have excluded the school from my beliefs regarding interviews, but without written permission they sure cannot take fingerprints from the kids.

Mr. A


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Mr. A said:


> Ying, I don't mind being wrong, but if you assert emphatically I am wrong please be courteous enough to explain you position. I will admit that I should have excluded the school from my beliefs regarding interviews, but without written permission they sure cannot take fingerprints from the kids.
> 
> Mr. A


It probably just consisted of kids putting their index finger on little pad...something like what companies use for punching in and punching out at work...like a kronos system or something...


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## ying6 (Apr 21, 2004)

I don't really have a position on this. I just know that you do not need parent consent to interview students in a school setting, I have heard of parents calling the school and claiming this.... it is not correct, I was hoping to stop a phone call. I would imagine there is quite a bit more to this than dragging students out and making them get fingerprinted against their will. 
My suggestion would be to call school officials and see what is going. If it is accurate then it could be something that needs to be brought up in a public forum. I think it would be wise to get the facts before passing judgement. 
As for taking fingerprints, I would imagine there is little difference in that and taking pictures for student IDs. Taking the photo for the ID does not need to be consented by the guardian, however publicly displaying it on a website or other media outlet does. On a side note, I would also believe that there must be a type of grant given to the school or the school would be in an effluent district to be able to afford such liberties like using finger print recognition.


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## polebender (Oct 29, 2011)

Surely there has to be some members that are in law enforcement or who are attorneys. If so could you please respond to tho post and resolve this issue?


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## Evinrude58 (Apr 13, 2011)

As far as fingerprinting minors goes the Ohio Attorney General's website has the following:
Fingerprinting a minor 
&#8226; Waiver will automatically pop up on your workstation if the Date of Birth you enter indicates the individual is a minor 
&#8226; Parent/Guardian must sign waiver 
&#8226; Parent/Guardian needs to be present during fingerprinting so you can verify that the signature on the waiver is valid 
&#8226; You should retain signed waiver for 1 year 

If it was a Biometrics data system the fingerprint/palm print is not stored. The scanner converts the images of finger/palm and vein patterns into an encrypted numeric algorithm. The algorithm is then stored in a database to be used later to identify students and to match their purchases with their unique identifier. The most common type to be used in our school lunchrooms is the Palm Secure system.

I know if it was in my school system I would want information about it before hand.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

polebender said:


> Surely there has to be some members that are in law enforcement or who are attorneys. If so could you please respond to tho post and resolve this issue?


Ying6 is a longtime HS teacher and one of the most unbiased people I know. Does he really need to get lawyered up to address the OP?


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

IMHO...first of all find out the true reason this was done...if it was for lunch scams, then it's BS.
If it is for safety reasons, etc, then I'm OK with finger printing him, if parents are properly notified and costs of ID and chip are prohibitive.... Mine already has an ID card and chip!
I am also fine with them having Metal detectors and Police in the schools and hallways.
I am also fine with cameras throughout the school. I want my child safe...period...I want them to do whatever it takes to make that happen!

I am also fine with cameras around towns, airports, etc...I am also fine with law enforcement screening people that look like suspects, I am fine with inspections at airports, large gatherings, etc...we have to realize now, that to be safe, we have to give up some of the conviences we had before all these idiots started bombing and terrorizing the US! 

As long as you are not Infringing on my REAL Constitutional Rights, then I am OK with MOST things! People should probably read the Constitution to actually see what is in it, instead of listening to the Civic Interest groups that IMHO have no idea what it says!

To be honest there's not much I'm against when it comes to the safety of my family or child...I'm not afraid of a background check, being fingerprinted, etc, because I live by the laws and if I break them then I need to be punished!
If I don't agree with the laws, I vote for someone else to try to change them...I am a very conservative person and I really don't feel my rights are being violated yet...I guess I feel that as long as I don't do anything wrong, or break laws, I don't have to worry! I'm not even against wire taps, because I don't have anything to hide! Drones will be fine until proven otherwise!
BUT, if they ever are PROVEN to have used this technology against LAW ABIDING citizens in any way other than how it's intended, then I reserve the right to change my beliefs and move to the Mountains with my Militia "Brothers"!


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## polebender (Oct 29, 2011)

Net said:


> Ying6 is a longtime HS teacher and one of the most unbiased people I know. Does he really need to get lawyered up to address the OP?


No! I'm not insinuating that anyone attain a lawyer. This is an issue that has to have a yes or no answer as far as legality is concerned. I was just asking someone who would know positively to share their expertise.

And all praises to Ying6 who serves in a profession that is under appreciated, underpaid, and unacknowledged for the services they provide.


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

With out getting in to politics to much, I want to address a couple of points here:



Intimidator said:


> IMHO...first of all find out the true reason this was done...


I would only expand to include; find out exactly what _did_ happen. It wouldn't be shocking if your highschooler left a detail or three out.



Intimidator said:


> I am also fine with cameras throughout the school. I want my child safe...period...I want them to do whatever it takes to make that happen!


Unfortunately cameras, as well as many other "safety" precautions, don't protect one from anything. They generally only _record_ an incident for review after an incident has taken place.

How do you feel about arming teachers? There are many school districts in Ohio that are doing this right now.



Intimidator said:


> As long as you are not Infringing on my REAL Constitutional Rights,


The 4th and 5th Amendments are _real._



Intimidator said:


> To be honest there's not much I'm against when it comes to the safety of my family or child...I'm not afraid of a background check, being fingerprinted, etc, because I live by the laws and if I break them then I need to be punished!
> If I don't agree with the laws, I vote for someone else to try to change them...I am a very conservative person and I really don't feel my rights are being violated yet...I guess I feel that as long as I don't do anything wrong, or break laws, I don't have to worry! I'm not even against wire taps, because I don't have anything to hide! Drones will be fine until proven otherwise!


It is fine that you have a personal opinion that if you have nothing to hide you should not feel violated. However, that is not how the founders of the country felt as read in the constitution. You have freedoms in this country and they should be exercised at will if you decide but you should not take your personal beliefs and force them on others by essentially trying to change the constitution. In other words, if you do not wish to exercise you or your child's 4th and 5th amendment rights, so be it, but you should not require others to do the same.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

icebucketjohn said:


> Quit your whining about personal rights.


John, I've always enjoyed reading pretty much everything you have written on any of these threads. I have to say that this time, however, I'm very disappointed with this statement, regardless of how it was framed by comments prior or aft.
I have mixed emotions about the actions of the school where the OP's child attends but am truly trouble by the apathy shown regarding individual's rights in this statement.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

MLAROSA said:


> With out getting in to politics to much, I want to address a couple of points here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Agree
2. Our school cameras are monitored by the deputy at his desk by the metal detectors...they have caught several "acts" in progress.
I also agree that this is not, but should be, the norm.
3. Yes, arm and train any teacher or school worker who wants that responsibility of first line defense of the children.
4. and 5.... Unreasonable and Probable are key, along with following due process...... and JUST Compensation!

Most people that complain about TRUE preventative measures, will also be the main complainers that not enough things we done, if something terrible would ever happen!


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Intimidator said:


> 4. and 5.... Unreasonable and Probable are key, along with following due process...... and JUST Compensation!


I am glad that we agree for the most part on the others, but I am not sure I understand what you mean in the quote above.

Is it not unreasonable to make innocent students submit to fingerprints? You do agree that if _every_ student was forced to submit their finger prints that some innocent students had their constitutional rights violated? With no crime or rule being broken, only to be able to eat lunch.

Is there any probable cause for the schools broad action of forcing every student to be fingerprinted?


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## Stars-n-Stripers (Nov 15, 2007)

Please bring spring.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

MLAROSA said:


> I am glad that we agree for the most part on the others, but I am not sure I understand what you mean in the quote above.
> 
> Is it not unreasonable to make innocent students submit to fingerprints? You do agree that if _every_ student was forced to submit their finger prints that some innocent students had their constitutional rights violated? With no crime or rule being broken, only to be able to eat lunch.
> 
> Is there any probable cause for the schools broad action of forcing every student to be fingerprinted?


Re-Read my post....First, find out what is truly going on...I then said if parents are properly notified and for safety purposes only, not for school lunch BS. I think we're on the same page here!


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Stars-n-Stripers said:


> Please bring spring.


Isn't using that pic without proper authorization, copyright infringement...certain groups would be glad to sue you for that ???lol


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## MLAROSA (May 20, 2004)

Intimidator said:


> I think we're on the same page here!


Probably, just didn't make sense to me.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

1) I'm not an attorney, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night

2) I work with 91 attorneys; whom I asked about this situation

3) I am an Investigator and deal with kids quite often so I must follow the laws regarding juveniles.

So, I asked some attorneys, both defense and prosecutors about this situation. 

All gave the same information. No matter why the print(s) were taken the school can be held liable if there was no parental permission given. Period. The people printing the kids were most likely not school employees so any perceived permission wouldn't extend to a 3rd party anyway.

All stated that there is likely no criminal activity on the schools part but civil liability was huge depending on the facts of the case.

The rest of what they said was regarding what they would personally do so it doesn't matter. However, I hope this satisfies anyone who wanted a lawyer's point of view.


Mr. A


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

Mr. A said:


> 1) I'm not an attorney, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night
> 
> 2) I work with 91 attorneys; whom I asked about this situation
> 
> ...


Thanks...hopefully it warms up soon so we can fish! Stay safe tonight.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Mr. A said:


> 2) I work with 91 attorneys; whom I asked about this situation
> 
> Mr. A


Wow, that had to take a long time

I would encourage a parental trip to the school for a face to face conversation to determine what is really going on and then act accordingly.


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

Gentlemen, I thank all of you for your responses, to the one poster, my son is not scarred for life nor am I. I will be going into the school administration office tomorrow if open to discuss, I had to work in Toledo today and could not cancel meetings I had scheduled. IF I had feared for the life of my son I would have of course however this didn't quite qualify.
I have two issues that I feel are valid and would like clarified,
1. Why were we not notified in advance and regardless of the reason they did this I feel we should have been.
2 is this information stored in a database with SS number and immunization records etc. I want that clarified and feel that is a reasonable request. If it is I want it deleted, period!
I am not going to name the school system as I have been advised not to at this time. I do not know if it is called Biometrics I have no idea, as I stated before we had no advance notice this was going to take place. 
I just feel if there should have been concise and clear communication prior to this event.
Thanks again everyone and I will update once I have my questions answered to my satisfaction. We do live in an age of information technology and as evidenced time and again it can be compromised, I do not want my kids identity stolen and used by someone to obtain loans, credit etc. I know some on here have had this happen and it can take years to recover. Thanks again to all, Think SPRING, it's coming despite this wacky weather.


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## Ozdog (Jul 30, 2007)

Rounding kids up like a gestapo for finger printing is wrong. The truth is mates, this is the society we made. Thank God I live in a small hick town. If you don't have the cash to buy lunch then you bring one with you or you can prepay.

"stop whining about your personal rights" What?
I'll pass on koolaid & you keep your arm band. The begining is past...where is the end? How much will we tolerate? What, my friends, have we let this country become?


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## ying6 (Apr 21, 2004)

Good to hear you are going in. It sounds like a communication breakdown somewhere. I am not involved but if this was our system we would have followed the proper procedures. 
I hope the administration takes the time to give you the explanation that will put you at ease and give you piece of mind that they have your son's best interest in mind. Please let us know how it turns out. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## ducman491 (Oct 31, 2011)

Thank you to the OP for posting this. I have had a discussion with all 3 of my kids about this. I would not respond well to my kids being fingerprinted without me being there.


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

I went to the schools website and typed fingerprint into the search tab and this is what I discovered. 
The program is Biometrics, it is as others have stated a mathematical algorithm of the fingerprint. My question here is: Could someone that knows the code or origin of the code work the algorithm in reverse to replicate the fingerprint? There are some really brilliant mathematicians out there hacking even govt info
The other thing I found out was that there was a document that I was to print out and sign IF I wanted to opt out, this seems a little backwards to me shouldn't my signature be required to participate rather than not participate?
Looks like I messed up here, my bad!


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## rod bender bob (May 19, 2004)

boatnut said:


> those that sacrifice their freedoms for security, deserve neither.


Pretty common here Boatnut. I wonder how many US service men and women who died for our rights are puking in their graves at the backbone-less society we have become. "I don't have any problem with it if it because i'm so pure!"


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## Gills63 (Mar 29, 2012)

Its a shady sales tactic to make me sign to not have something done. Pretty lame on their part.

And OP after 6 pages of thread you got to my question... what exactly does everyone think they could do with your fingerprint? What nefarious deed could someone carryout with it? I leave my fingerprints scattered across the country side. I ALMOST never wear white gloves or wipe my prints off after I touch something.

I agree that it does seem over the top.

Sent from my XT907 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Fishingisfun (Jul 19, 2012)

If biometrics convert fingerprints to 1's and 0's for a computer to read it is a digitized finger print used to identify the student positively. Finger print ID uses several points to confirm a positive ID. Guess it is how the biometrics works points matched. Could the code be misused for other biometric readers? Could the code be input by a device other than the scanner to open a account, safe PC login etc?
Seems like overkill to keep the lunch lady from giving the student a lunch from the wrong account.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

shroomhunter said:


> I went to the schools website and typed fingerprint into the search tab and this is what I discovered.
> The program is Biometrics, it is as others have stated a mathematical algorithm of the fingerprint. My question here is: Could someone that knows the code or origin of the code work the algorithm in reverse to replicate the fingerprint? There are some really brilliant mathematicians out there hacking even govt info
> The other thing I found out was that there was a document that I was to print out and sign IF I wanted to opt out, this seems a little backwards to me shouldn't my signature be required to participate rather than not participate?
> Looks like I messed up here, my bad!


To answer the first question, biometric code is what all computerized finger prints are stored as. If someone got a hold of the code it is easily transferred into the print. However they need the identity of the person to use it. Otherwise all they could do with it is put it in a database where it would sit until another known sample matched it.

When you talk to the administration about the reverse waiver as them what the law states about this type of permission/waiver. I would imagine that the way they set it up would NOT be justified as knowingly and properly informed consent. Thr fact that they do not have a signed legal document allowing your child to be printed is a HUGE issue for them. Which could be the basis of civil action if you so choose. Also, who knows when the information you found was edited to say you have to opt out?

Good luck, I hope this turns out the way you would like it too.

Mr. A


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## ezbite (May 25, 2006)

i have no dog in this fight. ive been fingerprinted my entire life, in fact i get printed and have a background check done every year by the atty gen office because of my job. dont really see the big deal about the prints, i dont think its a bad thing to have a record. the problem i see is it was done to minors without consent of the parents. anyone ever heard of child identa kits? its where parents take their child to a mall or what not to have their child printed and photographed, its put into a data base incase they come up missing.


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## Harbor Hunter (Aug 19, 2007)

Would not bother me one bit if any of my three kids or grandchildren were fingerprinted in school with or without my permission.As EZ stated I have been fingerprinted many times due to my line of work,and I even have to give a DNA sample due to crossing international borders on a regular basis.Various government agencies have my prints,photos of me,DNA samples,SSN etc.I have never felt neither paranoid nor like I was being spied on,but then I don't wear a tin hat either.I can see why some are upset that a school would do something like this without the parents knowing about it,or without their approval.It wouldn't bother me,but I can understand how it would some.If a school believes that it takes metal detectors,security guards,cameras,photo ID's,fingerprints and even armed teachers to make sure our kids are safe then I'm in.Now if and when they decide to do blood samples or microchipping I'll begin to worry.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Ok, ok, ok. I see the point about having nothing to hide. I am the same way, but I have rights like the rest of us.

That is not the issue I think most people have with this situation. I believe the issue at hand is having someone take your kids prints w/o your prior admission; which is required under the law.

So, under the law it is no different than the school taking your kids DNA and storing it on a database you don't know anything about w/o your permission. I hope that would at least bother you some.

I'm not saying there are not reasons to have either done. But I want to make an informed decision before anyone takes anything from me, or my family.

This is a classic example of the "slippery slope" concept. Where does it end and will you stand up before it is too late? I for 1 believe in standing up each and every time so that I never have to worry about it being too late.



Mr. A


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

'But I want to make an informed decision before anyone takes anything from me, or my family'.

'This is a classic example of the "slippery slope" concept. Where does it end and will you stand up before it is too late? I for 1 believe in standing up each and every time so that I never have to worry about it being too late'.
================================================

Well said Mr.A


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mr. A said:


> To answer the first question, biometric code is what all computerized finger prints are stored as. If someone got a hold of the code it is easily transferred into the print. However they need the identity of the person to use it. Otherwise all they could do with it is put it in a database where it would sit until another known sample matched it.
> 
> When you talk to the administration about the reverse waiver as them what the law states about this type of permission/waiver. I would imagine that the way they set it up would NOT be justified as knowingly and properly informed consent. Thr fact that they do not have a signed legal document allowing your child to be printed is a HUGE issue for them. Which could be the basis of civil action if you so choose. Also, who knows when the information you found was edited to say you have to opt out?
> 
> ...


Would it be OK if they used the distance between a few freckles on their arm to identify them and used an Arm Scanner to read it? If NOT, then it s not even ok for them to photograph a student without parental consent. We seem to be stuck on this "fingerprinting" verbiage... Which carries a certain stigma which I don't feel applies here so apples and oranges in my opinion. They are NOT "fingerprinting" the kids in the same way the BCI or any other enforcement agency would. 

Here's why. You cant use a couple points in a fingerprint to recreate the whole thing. So even if they DID reverse engineer a bunch of school kids thumbprints, they wouldn't be able to do anything with the tiny bit of data it contained. Police biometrics are a whole different beast. They are making facsimiles(perfect copies) of a complete fingerprint which would be required in a court of law to convict someone of a crime not just a couple points to tell one from the other. A few points on a kids thumbprint would be all you'd need to tell one apart from another. But NOT enough to prove it was that kid beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't see the big deal. 
Now IF they were taking whole fingerprints intact, and assigning other personal data I'd say that's not right. But no one is doing that. And I'd be willing to bet that this HAS been communicated, you just didn't get the memo for whatever reason. A school system is going to cover their butt on something like this obviously.

Also, OGF is also not a good site to gauge paranoia in my opinion....... You'll be wearing a tinfoil hat in no time!


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## 7thcorpsFA (Mar 6, 2010)

This is a bad situation for sure, but it is peanuts compared to what is coming for us.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

All kinds of info on this stuff going on in high schools. Just do a search.

http://www.newarkadvocate.com/viewa...rprint-scanning-technology-coming-SWL-schools


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Lewzer said:


> All kinds of info on this stuff going on in high schools. Just do a search.
> 
> http://www.newarkadvocate.com/viewa...rprint-scanning-technology-coming-SWL-schools


Yeah, this SURPRISE FINGER PRINTED BY FORCE stuff and intimidation sure seemed fishy to me. Everyone wanted to jump all over it though. I'd say some of the best advice in this thread has been talking to the school and someone telling the OP not to mention the name of the school system in his accusations.......


From your article:



> SWL provided parents with the option of opting out of the program. In such cases, the students will continue using their ID numbers.
> 
> The biometric system SWL is using does not store fingerprint images, according to information Parsons supplied in a letter delivered earlier this school year to parents. Instead, it uses an initial scan &#8212; SWL scanned middle and high school students on a recent weekday &#8212; to identify unique points on a fingerprint and then convert those points into binary numbers, which are encrypted. Through the encryption, the numbers cannot be arranged by someone to reconstruct a student&#8217;s fingerprint.
> &#8220;I know a lot of people pause about that,&#8221; said Parsons, referring to concerns about fingerprints being stored on servers somewhere. That is not the case, she said.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Would it be OK if they used the distance between a few freckles on their arm to identify them and used an Arm Scanner to read it? If NOT, then it s not even ok for them to photograph a student without parental consent. We seem to be stuck on this "fingerprinting" verbiage... Which carries a certain stigma which I don't feel applies here so apples and oranges in my opinion. They are NOT "fingerprinting" the kids in the same way the BCI or any other enforcement agency would.
> 
> Here's why. You cant use a couple points in a fingerprint to recreate the whole thing. So even if they DID reverse engineer a bunch of school kids thumbprints, they wouldn't be able to do anything with the tiny bit of data it contained. Police biometrics are a whole different beast. They are making facsimiles(perfect copies) of a complete fingerprint which would be required in a court of law to convict someone of a crime not just a couple points to tell one from the other. A few points on a kids thumbprint would be all you'd need to tell one apart from another. But NOT enough to prove it was that kid beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't see the big deal.
> Now IF they were taking whole fingerprints intact, and assigning other personal data I'd say that's not right. But no one is doing that. And I'd be willing to bet that this HAS been communicated, you just didn't get the memo for whatever reason. A school system is going to cover their butt on something like this obviously.
> ...


Not sure where you are going quite yet but since you quoted me, I'll take a stab at it.

I kinda agree with the start of your post. My kids are not allowed to be photographed unless I permit it. I cannot actually think of a time when I have not done so.

You beliefs about biometrics aside there is a flaw I am not sure you considered. They are taking a complete print; NOT a complete ser of prints, but 1 complete print. Hopefully we can agree there, right. When an biometric print is taken with a scanner it is similar to what the police use if not the same. The police may take a set of prints but with your name attached to a single print the police can make a case against you off that one print and they know the statistical degree of accuracy as well. It's not great, but it has helped to convict people in court, I know that for a fact. And in all the years I have been dealing with criminal cases in the court system I have rarely seen the police have a full set of prints (normally when they have multiple prints it includes a thumb print because of how humans manipulate objects with the hands), and in most cases prints are circumstantial but carry a huge amount of influence with juries.

Now, they have a single print and they MUST attach the kids information to it or it serves no purpose at all, right. We don't know how much of the kids information they attach but it is linked to one kid.

This is not my situation, I am not the OP, but the topic is important to me as a citizen because if schools get away with things like this it becomes a slippery slope and by that time it is too late.

So, the importance of one print is the same as a set of prints in the eyes of a jury and the law. The law protects the kid and looks out for their best interest first, then the parent; not the school so I believe that their implied consent form will not provide any protection in court be wise those types of agreements nearly always fail when legally challenged.

In the end this comes down to the constitutional rights of the kid and his parents, doesn't letter if it was a finger print or the kids DNA to the law. And it comes down to how far the OP wants to push this issue in order to protect his rights and the rights of his child.

I don't mind if people WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY give up a right, but I sure as hell wouldn't let it be taken away at someone else's pleasure. That's a sheep/herd mentality that leads to worse situations down a slippery slope. We all know where it ends too!

Peace! 



Mr. A


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## All Eyes (Jul 28, 2004)

My signature statement sums it up pretty well.


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mr. A said:


> Not sure where you are going quite yet but since you quoted me, I'll take a stab at it.
> 
> I kinda agree with the start of your post. My kids are not allowed to be photographed unless I permit it. I cannot actually think of a time when I have not done so.
> 
> ...



No we can't even agree there because they even stated it's not a complete print. Just a couple points from it. No way to recompile a complete print. One complete fingerprint is all they need to convince a jury. Not a complete set by any means.

Why aren't more people up in arms about school IDs with pictures on them then? Class pictures?? Parents have to be consulted then? No better way to identify someone than with a photo ID right? Why dare they try to ID my kid! We really know how to take things to the extreme around here!

Btw, seems like it's already too late since schools everywhere are doing it.


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

Like EZBite I have no dog in this fight. I do work in Healthcare and in IT and have been involved in several biometric initiatives. Aside from the privacy concerns of parental permission, my concerns are what is the intended use for the biometrics. If it is say to open a door or purchase lunch or some way of swiping your finger to identify someone, then much care needs to be taken to create a sterile environment. The company I work for had to shut down their biometric program during the H1N1 scare. The quickest way to spread disease is thru primary or secondary contact. Having one infected person (say common influenza) touching a specific spot (say biometric scanner) and then having say 100 students repeat probably isn't a good idea. I personally would have concerns over the intended use of the biometric scan.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Nanny state employers eh.. Did they shut down the bathrooms to since everybody was going to be grabbing the door handles all day? Was that water cooler properly sterilized ?? Heh

In their defense, H1N1 was killing people so I can kinda understand that . But still ...

What do you think would be cleaner the little biometric button that gets pressed or swiped multiple times a day or the dollar bill mommy gave the kid in his pocket he's going to use to pay the cashier ? How about the front door? Everyone grabbing it passing through. I don't think we need(read:can)to completely sterilize the workplace or the schools for that matter but hey , what do I know?!


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## Misdirection (Jul 16, 2012)

The point I was sharing to the op was that there are other considerations besides privacy here...

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Misdirection said:


> The point I was sharing to the op was that there are other considerations besides privacy here...
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


While I understood your point, my point was that didn't seem like a very practical consideration and if you are going to subscribe, you'll have quite a few other considerations following closely behind. But hey, its their business and they can run it however they want.

I work in a very similar environment. A lot of people sick right now actually. Every day when I come to work I have to touch many of the same things everyone else has. Door handles, faucets, appliances etc.

Yeah, I dunno. I'd be concerned as well until I knew the details of how it all worked.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

MassillonBuckeye said:


> While I understood your point, my point was those don't seem like very practical considerations and if you are going to subscribe, you'll have quite a few other considerations following closely behind. I work in a very similar environment.


Misdirections post made sense to me and honestly, the whole h1n1 thing was a "why didn't I think of that" moment.

I didn't understand you answer nor your post above? The difference between what he was talking about and your "considerations" is that a biometric access system is mandatory and you cannot put any protection between the scanner and your finger. But you can sure wrap a towel around a door handle? In hind sight maybe you were just being fececious? Either way his considerations seemed much more practical than yours.

Mr. A


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## MassillonBuckeye (May 3, 2010)

Mr. A said:


> Misdirections post made sense to me and honestly, the whole h1n1 thing was a "why didn't I think of that" moment.
> 
> I didn't understand you answer nor your post above? The difference between what he was talking about and your "considerations" is that a biometric access system is mandatory and you cannot put any protection between the scanner and your finger. But you can sure wrap a towel around a door handle? In hind sight maybe you were just being fececious? Either way his considerations seemed much more practical than yours.
> 
> Mr. A


And wrap a towel around the water faucets, and the water cooler button, and the front door and the..

No, I'm not being facetious. You could certainly sterilize the biometric button before you used it couldn't you? Or sterilize your finger after? 
Sorry, I don't see that as very practical and actually impossible in some cases.


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## ShaneMC (Nov 27, 2012)

To the original poster, can you prove damages? It will be extremely hard to prove this. Plus, Any lawyer is going to want money up front to even look into matters like this. If you have 10,000k plus laying around to use and see how far it gets through the legal process, more power to you. 

In all honesty a lawyer probably wont bother with the case. 

Its interesting you mentioned, if the person doesn't get his finger printed, they will not have lunch. Immediately, I think ok, the biometrics is linked to my student account. It's a form of payment. If I don't pay for my meal by scanning my finger..... of course I'm not eating.

Call the superintendent of the school district.


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## shroomhunter (Aug 6, 2004)

OK here it is
1 Son forgot/lost whatever the letter 
2 We didn't see the information on the website although it was buried a couple pages back.
3 It is Biometrics and it is tied to the lunches, the letter explains it all, claims that it uses the finger print just for the initial scan and that it is not stored. Sure, I trust big business
4 In no way am I after any monetary gain, I get up go to work every day, pay taxes and complain some like the rest, don't need a lawsuit to get rich, not my way.

This is done and going nowhere, I have my answers although I still don't believe that a form NOT returned and signed meant I was giving consent. This practice needs to be stopped, not only as it pertains to schools and minors but anything. This remains my main issue and wonder when this tactic will transcend into the business world.

Now a little side note on the effectivness of the program, as explained in the letter it is supposed to speed up the lunch line. Day 1, did not work, half the kids didn't get to eat. Day 2 same problems again, maybe they'll figure it out.
Sometimes the things you learn in school don't come from a text book or the classroom. 
Thanks to ALL for the replies on both sides of the fence, no hard feelings here at all. If I didn't want others opinions I wouldn't have started the thread.

THINK SPRING, it's coming!!!!


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

From today NBC news


By Bob Sullivan
The sheer volume of data sucked out of us every minute is creating a digital duplicate of our lives that can be exploited by the nefarious. Follow an NBC News reporter through one day in his life to see how much and how often he unknowingly leaks data.

Cell phones tell stores you are walking by. Thermostats tell power companies when you get home. Computers in your car tell companies where you go, and how fast you get there.

All that data is available to the government with a simple phone call, or search query, of course. And hackers can get this data with a simple computer magic trick, or a little social engineering.

But the sheer volume of data sucked out of us every minute is creating a digital duplicate of our lives that can be exploited by thieves and by those looking to curtail our freedom. All those gadgets and appliances that can talk to the Internet might fulfill the dream of George Jetson, or they could bring about the nightmare of George Orwell.

In some respects, the nightmare has already become reality. In Ukraine, government protestors last week received text messages telling them they were committing a crime. At Target, online thieves used a single hacking incident to disrupt the lives of 100 million Americans. Computer criminals have stolen some victims' most private selfies, for ransom, demanding cash with threats that the embarrassing images would be published for all the world to see.

So at NBC News, we tried an experiment recently to account for just how much data a person leaks in a day. We invited Tod Beardsley, a white hat" hacker from security startup Rapid7, to follow this reporter for a day and collect every single piece of data leaked -- from the moment I hit snooze on my smartphone in the morning to the second I finally stopped reading e-mail on my iPad at night.

Beardsleys task was impractical, of course. Physically speaking, no one person could collect all that information, even just one day's worth. He figured one consumer-grade hard-drive, a terrabyte in size, could do it, however.

One terabyte is an enormous amount of data, equal to roughly one-quarter of the books in the Library of Congress. Or, Beardsley thinks, roughly equal to the amount of data you "leak" on any given day.

Picture a room in your house, filled with shelves, stacked with such hard drives. A few thousand of them are plenty to store nearly every fact about every aspect of your entire life. With video.

Where does this terabyte come from? Let's hit some highlights:

You wake up: Your smartphone alarm knows precisely when you wake up, where you are, and which e-mails you open to start your day.

You drive to work: Red light cameras, E-Z pass tolls, and opportunistic Bluetooth listeners go along for the ride. Traffic cameras and license plate readers take photos of every car driving through town.

At work: Your boss knows all your Amazon purchases, and can read all your personal e-mails, no matter what service you use. Use your personal phone for work, and your company can seize your gadget.

At a coffee shop: Using free Wi-Fi makes your computer free to a hacker, who could easily mimic the shops WiFi signal and intercept every bit and byte.

Shopping: Stores track the phone in your pocket and know each step you take towards the cash register. They even know if you walk by, outside, and can pester you to come in.

At the gym: Gadgets can track your heart rate every second; they can tell an insurance company if you are keeping up with that cardiac rehab therapy, too.

Back home: Turn up the thermostat, the Smart Grid knows youre home. Return after midnight several days in a row? Maybe an employment background company will tell your employer.

Naturally, weve only skimmed the surface.

Add it all up, and youve got perhaps a terabytes worth of data spawned in a day. The real question is: So what? Why should I care that some company knows I excessively check NHL hockey scores from my smartphone?

For starters, its going to be very hard for data leakage and the Constitution to co-exist, experts say.

We have this idea in America about the First Amendment and the freedom of association. We dont have to register with the government who all our friends are, Beardsley said. Like if someone gave you a form and said please list, you know, your top fifty friends, I mean, no way? Nobody would do this. Except we do this now all the time with Facebook. "

So what if someone  a corporation, a government, a hacker  knows who all your friends are? The phrase nothing to hide always arises in discussions like this.

Daniel Solove, a privacy law professor at George Washington University and author of a book called Nothing to Hide, usually dispenses with the argument by asking audiences, Do you have curtains? Author and lawyer Harvey Silvergate is more blunt. Most citizens, he says, commit Three felonies a Day, in a book of that name. A government that can observe its people 24 hours per day will have no trouble finding a reason to imprison any of them, if it wants to.

The problem is not the gadgets. The problem is the human urge to try things before thinking through the consequences. Gadgetry always wins out over privacy; it's been happening for decades. At nearly every turn it the age of the Internet, when we've hit a fork in the road, weve chosen more invasive technologies over more privacy. Why? Because the benefits are immediate (Cool! My fridge just texted to say I'm out of ice cream!) and the consequences come later (My health insurance premiums went up again?).

Add the data up, and what does it really mean?

There was this fear like twenty or thirty years ago, that the government or corporations would be implanting chips in people and know where they are at all the time. Well, weve opted into this now, Beardsley said.

Its not a chip, though. Its the database of our lives, collected from a river of leaked bits and bytes.









First published February 5 2014, 2:38 PM


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