# alcoholism?



## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

my friend and coworker lost his wife of 25 years recently. she died from cancer, it ate her up for 5 years. they just had their first child a few months before she was diagnosed. the boy is 6. They were in their late 40s so the boy was a miracle baby.

Now my friend has turned to alcohol. He never used to drink. He was going to dump a few bottles of whiskey down the drain a few years ago because he simply didnt want it or need it. (I took them) He tried to give up alcohol for lent and did not make it past day #1.

How does someone escape this? The pain of his wifes passing has ripped his heart right in half.....completely destroyed him....I just wish I could help him....he's quite a perfectionist and I respect him deeply. He always does the right thing and he always succeeds at what he does. I look up to him. His failure must be severely disappointing to him.....it makes me very sad as well....


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## Gottagofishn (Nov 18, 2009)

My heart goes out to him, truly a heart wrenching story for sure. When I was younger I struggled with alcohol as well so I get it. I often wonder if I were to end up alone if I would be strong enough to resist...
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is really any answer that isn't inside of him. He will need to find the courage and will power to kick it. Only he is able to make that decision. I would think the sooner the better before he destroys his life. 
Some find support with AA. Maybe church? Maybe you could give it up with him? Sounds like he needs some kind of support to get him moving in the right direction. I was able to quit because my wife said she would quit with me (Its been 35 years this year). He needs to find something that he needs more than the alcohol.
Good luck, I hope he can find what he needs. My thoughts are with him.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Try to encourage him about the son he needs to raise on his own. The boy can't afford to loose both parents.


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## backfar (Sep 24, 2014)

I truly am sorry to hear this bad news.... I've never been one to sugar coat the truth from anybody, he has a responsibility to raise his child in a sober environment...the harsh reality is that everyone reading this post has lost someone very close... that being said the good Lord above did not give him more than he can handle....it's his decision....I'm glad he has a friend that does care and hopefully for both his and his sons sake he gets his act together..


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## BlueMax (Dec 3, 2006)

From my observations over 5+ decades the best chance for someone to shake this is a support group. Tell him how YOU feel. Don't expect immediate hugs. Let him know you are his friend.


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## gumbygold (Apr 9, 2013)

You can let him know that you are concerned but there is nothing else you can do. He has to hit rock bottom and make that decision for himself. Unfortunately there is a low rate of long-term sobriety once you are addicted.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

He needs to see a Physician, a Therapist that can help him work thru the impossible reasoning of the loss of his wife and can also prescribe medications, if required, to help him avoid his destructive behavior. He is suffering from severe depression and the drinking is a symptom of his problems, not the root of his problems. He can go to all the AA type meetings he wants but if does not address the severe depression he will not overcome anything, IMO. If he is your good friend your support and encouragement to seek help is invaluable to him and his child. Best of luck, I hope for him and his kid success in beating this.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with others. The answer is inside of him, and the root is depression. Unfortunately, there is no cure all fix for depression. Therapy helps some, medication helps some, and nothing works for some. 

The fact that he wasn't a drinker until the passing of his wife tells me that this isn't alcoholism, it's a coping mechanism. 

Hopefully the child will be enough to motivate him to move on, as hard as it might be. You can encourage and suggest all that you want, but the fact is that until he can move past what can't be changed, nothing is going to help. He needs to figure how to do that.


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## Workingman (Jan 21, 2016)

Be as relentless as you can in your friendship with him. It's easy to try to encourage someone a few times and walk away or disconnect if we don't get the result we want. It may take 10 years and incredible heartbreak but stay in touch often, make time for him and his son. Let them know how much you care.
Every day is a new day with new opportunity! Keep at it man!


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

thanks everyone for your advice, sympathies, and encouragement....i appreciate it.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Remember, your job here isn't to "fix" him. Only he can really do that. Your job is to encourage and support him and his son through this. I wish you the best in this endeavor. I've never dealt with alcoholism, but I've dealt with depression more than I care to think about. There is no easy fix , and it effects everyone.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

hardwaterfan said:


> thanks everyone for your advice, sympathies, and encouragement....i appreciate it.


My church in Chagrin Falls has an ongoing support group that help people dealing with grief due to the loss of a loved one. Let me know if that may work for him.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

PapawSmith said:


> He needs to see a Physician, a Therapist that can help him work thru the impossible reasoning of the loss of his wife and can also prescribe medications, if required, to help him avoid his destructive behavior. He is suffering from severe depression and the drinking is a symptom of his problems, not the root of his problems. He can go to all the AA type meetings he wants but if does not address the severe depression he will not overcome anything, IMO. If he is your good friend your support and encouragement to seek help is invaluable to him and his child. Best of luck, I hope for him and his kid success in beating this.


BINGO! The guy needs counseling. First for his grief since that seems to be leading to the alcoholism, and second for the alcoholism itself. 

He needs somebody that he can just dump all his feelings on. You can be part of the process, but a professional counselor knows how to steer the patient in the right direction. Beaver made a great point in that the answer is inside of him, but some people still need to be guided to find that place. 

I wish him and his child luck.


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## geoffoquinn (Oct 2, 2011)

Withdrawal from alcohol is one of the worst withdrawals. There is a possibility he might need a little help that friends and family can't give to get him safely off of it. If he's really bad off he may have to drink to keep going until he is properly dried out. . Find outside professional Help.


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## Deadeyedeek (Feb 12, 2014)

geoffoquinn said:


> Withdrawal from alcohol is one of the worst withdrawals. There is a possibility he might need a little help that friends and family can't give to get him safely off of it. If he's really bad off he may have to drink to keep going until he is properly dried out. . Find outside professional Help.


I was a Misserable drunk also, from my 3yr experiances from VietNam..it takes some REALLY GOOD friends to encouage him to get some help, remember drunks dont accept the fact.. that they have a problem. Be persistant and encouage him, support him and help him understand he has a child who depends on him..counseling will help him to understand why he is abuseing booze (to bury his pain) Thank god I listened to my friends and family, and delt with the underlying issues. Now my drug of choice is fishing and hunting. Stay with him brother..he needs your help..Good luck


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## fishingguy (Jan 5, 2006)

never mind


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Love the REAL talk on this forum. The older I get the more I realize that life ain't easy. There are going to be setbacks. It doesn't do anyone any favors to sugarcoat the situation for them. Mental health issues can be much tougher to overcome than physical ones. You have the right to pursue happiness in this country, but you won't find it every day. It might be painful to talk about, but until the real issues are addressed, you can't move on and recover.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

A whole lot of knowledge and truth in these posts.
A sure case for a belief in God, knowing that our Heavenly Father will give us strength in situations in which there doesn't seem to be any and...a case for some serious counseling. The only 'shame' when it comes to accepting the fact that counseling is needed is not getting the counseling.
Praying for him to accept help, praying for his son, and those around him to be able to help guide and support him in his inner battles.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

"Just be thankful you ain't going through it!"

unfortunately I cant say that.....this thread is helping me just as much as its helping me to help my friend......

thank you everyone for your words and for opening up...ive learned a lot and its helped me talking with my friend....

most profoundly.....that its not the alcohol....its the fire, and its like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.....


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## gumbygold (Apr 9, 2013)

geoffoquinn said:


> Withdrawal from alcohol is one of the worst withdrawals. There is a possibility he might need a little help that friends and family can't give to get him safely off of it. If he's really bad off he may have to drink to keep going until he is properly dried out. . Find outside professional Help.


If he's been drinking long enough actual withdrawal can be life threatening and he'll need to be in the hospital or a medical withdrawal facility. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

yeah ive read that also, thank you.....thats what i told him.....i tried to warn him about that....he didnt make it past day #2 either but he didnt drink too much....


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## Chris Martin (Jan 9, 2017)

When I was 20 I deployed to Afghanistan and on June 6th 2010 my world got flipped on its end. My best friend got killed. To make matters worse he should have never been there driving the MRAP. A couple months before deployment we switched teams and he took my spot as the driver. Before we left the country my friend and I got drunk and got into a fight and and I said some very hurtful mean things. We didn't talk again. The last things I said to him were some of the most hateful mean things I have ever said. Once we got back I choose the booze. Could not forgive myself for the things I said to him. I couldn't get out of my head that he should have never been there in that situation, it should have been me. Had and still have nightmares because of it. I drank everyday to the point to where I would but Jim beam in my coffe in the morning. And drink as much as I had to feel nothing and started cutting. I went to therapy and took meds the whole nine yards. Never helped. What finally got me out of it is my friends that never left my side they never tried to force me to quit drinking. They just were there for me. They were they by my side watching and tried talking to me when I was sober and I would lie and say that I wasn't drinking as much anymore. They saw through the bullshit. It was me who then realized I had to stop. After all I put my friends through the lying. When I was ready I went to them and said I'm ready and they were there with open arms to help. So just be there for your friend and his son. Make sure him and his son know you will always be there for them. Maybe give his son your phone number for in case the son needs to get a hold of you for some reason. Wish them the best of luck. Hope this helps and things will get better.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

thank you so much for your words and thank you for serving. your words mean a lot to me. im sorry to hear about what happened between you and your friend.

thats life... there just is no "rewind" button.....as much as some of us wish for it, its just not there....i know id kill for one...just have to live and learn as the saying goes...


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

fishingguy said:


> When I first read this thread, I said no way am I throwing my two cents in. But, it bothered me a bit, and I still am unsure about saying anything. I lost my wife in child birth in '84. My son had a heart operation, he weighed 24 ounces. Through a tremendous effort from the people at University Hospital and specifically RBandC, I would not be here to write this. That is about 1% of my story, you will not hear anymore about it. Your friends mind is broken. The man you used to know is gone. How much of his previous mind can be regained is anyone's guess. It will take decades. It's up to him. You or anyone else can't tell him anything he hasn't dealt with about a million times in his own head. It's a slow go, and yes alcohol sometimes is your best friend. It's the only way to get some sleep. My original personality had to be put aside, I was a basket case. I turned into a machine, no emotion, decisions based on logic and fact. It was the only way out. I called that part of me "Spock", for obvious reasons. Spock liked to golf, go figure. Never golfed before, but it was my ticket out. I still never gave up fishing, but it was definitely Tee times instead of boat ramps for many years. After abut 20 years I was able to reclaim some of original me. Enough to quit golf, and get back to Lake Erie full time. That's when fishingguy poked through. You want your friend back, I get it. That guy is gone, your going to have to deal with the new guy, if you don't like him, tough poop. Just be thankful you ain't going through it!


As a medical professional...this has to be the most ignorant post i have ever read about alcoholism.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't think this is an alcoholism issue as much as its a depression/mental health issue. When I think of alcoholism, I think of a chemical dependency. From these stories , it seems more like the alcohol is a way of coping with the symptoms of depression caused by life altering events. The alcohol helps numb the pain of reality , insomnia, etc. Caused by the depression. Not so much the body needing the alcohol. Just my opinion.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yes beaver and you are exactly correct ... depression is leading to the coping mechanism (alcohol)...but regardless of the reason why the alcohol is used ...It is still alcohol… and when used in excess long enough… Dependency is the result ,which leads to alcoholism and the chemical dependency.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

I understand that you guys are saying he may just be temporarily depressed and he's trying to kill the pain temporarily... but depression is the number one instigator of alcoholism .


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> I don't think this is an alcoholism issue as much as its a depression/mental health issue. When I think of alcoholism, I think of a chemical dependency. From these stories , it seems more like the alcohol is a way of coping with the symptoms of depression caused by life altering events. The alcohol helps numb the pain of reality , insomnia, etc. Caused by the depression. Not so much the body needing the alcohol. Just my opinion.


IMO, one will eventually lead to the next.
Depression/mental health issues are often how addicts addicted to various things become addicts. 
Hopefully the OP's friend's body has not yet become chemically dependant on alcohol. But if not brought under control, it's just a matter of time.


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## fishingguy (Jan 5, 2006)

never mind.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

fishingguy said:


> It was not about alcoholism, that is the effect. I was talking about the cause, his wifes death and his responsibilities going forward.



...ok


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## Connman (Mar 24, 2016)

hardwaterfan said:


> my friend and coworker lost his wife of 25 years recently. she died from cancer, it ate her up for 5 years. they just had their first child a few months before she was diagnosed. the boy is 6. They were in their late 40s so the boy was a miracle baby.
> 
> Now my friend has turned to alcohol. He never used to drink. He was going to dump a few bottles of whiskey down the drain a few years ago because he simply didnt want it or need it. (I took them) He tried to give up alcohol for lent and did not make it past day #1.
> 
> How does someone escape this? The pain of his wifes passing has ripped his heart right in half.....completely destroyed him....I just wish I could help him....he's quite a perfectionist and I respect him deeply. He always does the right thing and he always succeeds at what he does. I look up to him. His failure must be severely disappointing to him.....it makes me very sad as well....


What's a alcoholic to you? Never said how much he drinks


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

conman... no one is actually labeling anyone as an alcoholic in this thread . we are simply stating that depression can very easily lead to alcoholism . The original poster just described the events that his friend went through and he is concerned that his friend is turning to alcohol... which is a very legitimate concern .


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

i really, really, really wish there would be no arguing here.......

damn i know this is the internet but cmon.....please......im beggin for everyone to be able to speak their mind.....i dont care if you consider others words right or wrong.....please dont get the thread closed......you can state your case without specifically attacking anyone else......state your case...i want to hear what you have to say.....everyone can say whats on their mind....

and i appreciate EVERYONES words......ive learned a ton from this thread.....


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

hard water… Basically what's going on here is your friend's plane is veering into a nosedive, and you are obviously a close enough friend to detect it… What you need to do now is to GET INVOLVED...and STAY involved...when I say that I mean spending time ...spend all of your free time with him ...if you need to stay the night to watch over him and his family... then do it. phone calls, text messages, emails ... stay on him like white on rice . You have to completely get the message to him that someone cares.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

thank you man, i have been doing that......i get the sense that it does help.....


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

it will...it all boils down really, to you not giving up.. The bottom line is, as long as he knows that he is not alone (which is the single most consuming thought in his head right now)... then things will get better .


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

9Left said:


> it will...it all boils down really, to you not giving up.. The bottom line is, as long as he knows that he is not alone (which is the single most consuming thought in his head right now)... then things will get better .


Don't know about his extended family situation but if he has relatives that are...or were close to him that will get involved, that will help also. Bottom line is the more support he can get the better his chances are going to be. 
You have to be careful not to become an enabler also. Which can easily happen in various ways without even knowing it. 
Going to some Al Anon meetings yourself and learning about alcoholism or addictions can be very enlightening and can give you some direct answers and contacts to get answers that will arise as you go through this process with your pal. 
Again, I cannot stress to you the importance of not only counseling for him, but maybe suggesting and going with him to church. Reading the Bible to...or with him and encouraging him along those lines will do wanders. He's going through something that is stronger than he is and searching for peace/comfort in all the wrong places. 
Obviously, he's not the only one to ever go through this and if he can't find peace/strength someplace else, his drinking will get worse. May even start doing other self medicating things as well. 
One thing about addiction...IT NEVER STAYS AT THE SAME LEVEL.
It is either getting better...or it's getting worse. 
Will continue prayer for him as well as you.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

9Left said:


> As a medical professional...this has to be the most ignorant post i have ever read about alcoholism.


Despite the Title, this thread isn't really about Alcoholism.




9Left said:


> ... and i quote...
> -" your friends mind is broken"
> -"alcohol is sometimes your best friend"
> -"my original personality "
> ...


Pretty low shot right there.

Some real, real solid advice in this thread. Those who haven't been through alot have absolutely no business judging those who have. Period.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Just realized Fishinguy deleted his post. While horrifying, it was one of the best posts in this thread. You have any Idea how much strength it took for him to say what he said? You have any idea how hard it is to reflect back on some of the most horrifying times in your life, PUBLICLY?

Hardwater, Fishinguy hit the nail on the head with his initial post. While I don't blame him for deleting what he said you might want to contact him for future advice. Your friend is in some serious trouble from a Mental Health perspective.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

disagree man...the advice FG gave him was basically to let it go because his friend's mind is gone and cant be changed, and to just be glad that he is not going through it . and I understand exactly what he's going through because I deal with this on a weekly basis at work . OK, sure, that was very courageous of him to express what he went through and what he felt ... but to tell the OP to basically just be indifferent and to be glad that he is not the one going through it is pretty much the worst advice to give . Times like this are exactly when family and friends need to step up and get involved .


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

acklac...everyone here knows that this thread is not about alcoholism… What it is about is loss… Which leads to depression… And using alcohol as a coping mechanism to deal with it can lead to addiction.That is what hardwater is concerned about..what I am telling him to do is to get as involved as possible right now, so that his friend does not go down this path ..because if he does not get involved… As sure as the sky is blue ..his friend will end up in a complete downward spiral.


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

That's not what I got from his post 9left. What I got was to accept the fact that he has changed and is in fact a totally different person than he was before. He isn't just the same old fella going through a bad mood. I think he was trying to portray how important it is to remember that when going through this with him. He isn't going to change over night , because he didn't change over night. The fact is that he isn't the same person he was before, and he may never be again. That's not to say he doesn't need help and support, or that he can't get healthy and back to his old life for the most part. It just means that it's more than that. He's the same person, and not at the same time. He's thinking differently now, bases his decisions differently now, uses logic differently (or not at all) now, etc. That has to be taken into consideration when dealing with him. 

When I was in darker times (no need for details on that here) , I was doing things that don't make sense to me now. When I think about them, I don't think they were stupid decisions. I think they were decisions that I wouldn't make now, but I was in a different mind frame then and made those decisions using that train of thought. Even now, I think they were the right decisions then, even though I think they were the wrong decisions now. It's hard to explain, but even though I'm not in that place anymore and I don't think that way anymore (nor did I before that time) , I can still remember that logic and rationalize it while understanding that I was a different person during that time. 

It's easy for someone who hasn't been in that place to judge someone else who has. I don't blame those people or chastise them, because they can't understand and shouldn't be expected to.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Yes, Yes and Yes. Goodstuff guys.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

OK beaver... I understand what you're saying… FG was just describing his personal recollection of what he went through... but to me, very much sounded like he was telling him to just let his friend go.. The point that I really want to get across to hard water is the involvement of friends and family… His friend is just now in the beginning of the five stages, and it is (from experience) very very attainable for his friend to get through this as long as he knows that he is not alone . alcohol is absolutely not a factor in the five stages and when it is introduced,his grievance process will be completely interrupted and things can go south very very quickly . i'm just trying to convey that letting his friend know he's not alone can stop that from happening.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Fastwater actually brings up a good point that I should clarify.. while the involvement of the family is very important… Hard water, you have to understand that the family is actually going through the same process at the same time your friend is .. and not all of them are going to do it on the same timeline or schedule..i've seen several times were several family members will go through the anger at the same time, now you're dealing with a family that are all hating and blaming each other.. while that may not last a long time, what I'm telling you is that, as a friend, this loss may not be hitting you as hard as it is hitting all of them, that's why it is so important for you to get involved, you could quite possibly be the one with A clear thought process .


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

9Left said:


> I've seen several times were several family members will go through the anger at the same time, now you're dealing with a family that are all hating and blaming each other.. while that may not last a long time, what I'm telling you is that, as a friend, this loss may not be hitting you as hard as it is hitting all of them, that's why it is so important for you to get involved, you could quite possibly be the one with A clear thought process .


This.

Been there, Experienced that. Sadly.


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## Ruminator (Apr 6, 2004)

hardwater, I think you're getting a lot of good advice. I've been the helpful friend five times.
From my experiences I have to add a caution for you. It comes from the year I, and my wife worked with helping a young woman free herself from her Satanist parent's grip.
Depression was involved in it, as it was with an old high school friend who called me from the Psych Ward at a nearby hospital. He had done a close job of ending his life and almost remained permanently blind afterward.
In another case alcoholism was a part of their problems.

My word of caution is that you can get caught up in this type of help and potentially cause yourself, and/or your immediate family to become victims by your trying to do everything yourself. Don't make that mistake!
From my experience, from the start you need to get others involved in helping your friend. A number of guys have posted about getting him a counselor, therapist, or a trained pastor. I highly recommend doing this first!

If you are the one "front and center" in the help of your friend, you can easily lose your perspective and so this counselor is for your protection in that their involvement will be able to keep you grounded.
It can be a tough thing to keep all of your different responsibilities met if you are the only one.
This can overwhelm you very quickly! 
For example, your friends son at 6 yrs. old almost certainly also needs help having been left by his mom, and now his dad's possibly distancing himself in the process of killing his pain with alcohol?


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## bruce (Feb 10, 2007)

9lefrt have you loved and lost. I have And ben blamed for my wife giting cancer. Thare is no supoart for a white male.This talk about god. I was pised at god. If you haven't walked the walk do no talk talk.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

yea bruce... i have


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

bruce said:


> 9lefrt have you loved and lost. I have And ben blamed for my wife giting cancer. Thare is no supoart for a white male.This talk about god. I was pised at god. If you haven't walked the walk do no talk talk.


HE works in the medical field Mr. Bruce...He knows what he's talking about


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

bruce said:


> 9lefrt have you loved and lost. I have And ben blamed for my wife giting cancer. Thare is no supoart for a white male.This talk about god. I was pised at god. If you haven't walked the walk do no talk talk.


Hey Bruce, Why is there no support for a white male....Im curoious....Tom


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Keep this on track fellas. This is probably the only thread in the history of ogf that actually has any merit to help anyone. Let's not blow it.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Let me start with this bruce... nobodies perfect ..i read fishingguys original post too quickly.. I assumed what I thought it meant when it actually was something entirely different... it's an easy thing to do when reading plain text on the Internet ...a couple guys put me in check for it and we have moved on... 
any old Joe can get on his computer and Google "Elizabeth Kubler Ross "... there's a big difference though between a quick five minute Google search and a college degree with 13 years experience.. that's why I am "talking the talk "


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Yeah, everyone just chill. For the benefit of others take a deep breath. Real easy to get emotional, I know.

This thread has the potential to benefit alot of people. Alot of people who are simply too overwhelmed to reach out. Man-alive do I wish this thread would have been around 5 years ago. A lot of excellent advice here. Please try and keep it positive. Please.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

beaver said:


> Keep this on track fellas. This is probably the only thread in the history of ogf that actually has any merit to help anyone. Let's not blow it.


beaver is spot on. 
There have been some threads of real importance on OGF since I've joined. But IMO, this has to rank right up at the top. Too far up on the list for any pety bickering to get it shut down.
Please, if there's a post that offends someone or a post that someone feels is way out there, please pm that person so we can stay on target.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Hardwater... I hope that this thread is helping ... there is one point that I want to bring up that I don't think anyone has talked about yet ... and that is your friend son.. you've been hearing over and over again throughout this thread that it is very very important for you to get involved and to convey the feeling to your friend that he is not alone ..now, the grieving process is just that, a process, he's going to go through this process, and it is very natural, because he's a human being . there is no timeline or schedule that he's going to follow necessarily while moving through this process .And no one is expecting you to facilitate him through the process of grieving necessarily , it's a natural process, let it take it's course .. what I wanted to get across to you is to step in and try to prevent alcohol from being part of the process. I want to make this a topic because, I remember you saying that the son is now about six years old . Hands down, The single most influential part of a child's life is the same sex parent, that's just a fact. with this boy being six years old, he is at the perfect age in which he will be watching his fathers every move, because he wants to be " just like dad" when he grows up . so do what we were all saying, Step into your friends life,be his friend, let him know he is not alone . and I'm definitely not going to tell you that at some part in this process he's won't get mad and lash out at you . just realize that he's going through a natural process and stick with him.


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## Mitchell Bock (Aug 16, 2016)

I lost my dad last month to alcoholism, he drank himself to death. He was an amazing guy and was very loveable. He was the first one I'd show all my catches to, he was everything to me. Let him know how much his son needs him, trust me, this is coming from a 17 year old who will grow up with only memories of his father. If you can't do it for yourself, at least do it for your kid before it's too late


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## beaver (Sep 28, 2010)

Mitchell Bock said:


> I lost my dad last month to alcoholism, he drank himself to death. He was an amazing guy and was very loveable. He was the first one I'd show all my catches to, he was everything to me. Let him know how much his son needs him, trust me, this is coming from a 17 year old who will grow up with only memories of his father. If you can't do it for yourself, at least do it for your kid before it's too late


Registered since last August and this is your first post. Im sorry for.your loss, and thank you for your contribution to this thread. 

This is a powerful thread with some sincere posts. I hope this one sticks around.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

My sincere condolences to you Mitchell Bock.
Hasn't been all that long ago I lost my dad as well.
9Left posted of a 'grieving process' and the fact that we all go through that process. That's very true. Is also a fact that there's no time frame or a set way of going through that process.
But, there are choices as individuals we can make throughout the healing process. Obviously, bad choices will prolong the natural healing process cause we are trying to disguise or hide the pain, pushing under the rug and not dealing with the issues inside of us.
But you can bet, if we make the decision to stop the bad decision we made, we still have that grieving process to go through.
In short, if we have a tragic event happen that we just can't deal with in a healthy way and choose an unhealthy way, we are compounding problems. Often we have to eventually get counseling /help with what is grieving us AND get help with the unhealthy thing we chose to do. And that usually consist of a dual diagnoses and dual treatment.


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## Ruminator (Apr 6, 2004)

I've been here since before the doors opened, and we've had other fantastic threads like this outpouring to help a fellow member. This one indeed ranks at the top along with those.

I'm glad you decided to post here Mitchell, my condolences as well. I hope you also find somethings helpful.

There is a link to a thread actually about alcohol at the bottom of this page under the "Similar Threads" title. It has very good incite and advice specifically related to alcoholism meant to help LakeRaider, another member many remember here as he wanted to help his friend.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

The grieving process is tough. Especially if you have never been through it before. I lost my uncle 2 years ago tragically, and unexpectedly. It devastated my aunt. She just curled up into a ball and stayed at home for months. Luckily for her, she had a lot of support from friends, family, and her church. She lost weight from not eating. Everyone in my family was effected. Many of us were grieving and not able to help her. It helped her to write about her feelings in a blog on facebook. Some of these blogs were heartbreaking to read, but they helped her and even me too to understand the process. 

I can't think about him without picturing the pic of him holding up 2 big walleyes he caught at West Branch 2 weeks before he died. Soon after the funeral, I took my boat out there and fished the same bay that he caught them from. I didn't catch much, but I felt closer to him. The peacefulness of the morning and knowing ge had been there helped the process.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Mitchell Bock said:


> I lost my dad last month to alcoholism, he drank himself to death. He was an amazing guy and was very loveable. He was the first one I'd show all my catches to, he was everything to me. Let him know how much his son needs him, trust me, this is coming from a 17 year old who will grow up with only memories of his father. If you can't do it for yourself, at least do it for your kid before it's too late


So sorry for your loss. I lost my dad at 20. It's really tough at times, you need a fathers advice and he's not there. OGF is a good place to ask for answers to your questions. There are a lot of fathers on here that can give you some good advice if you ever need to ask. Take care and God bless.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

Mitchell Bock said:


> I lost my dad last month to alcoholism, he drank himself to death. He was an amazing guy and was very loveable. He was the first one I'd show all my catches to, he was everything to me. Let him know how much his son needs him, trust me, this is coming from a 17 year old who will grow up with only memories of his father. If you can't do it for yourself, at least do it for your kid before it's too late


Im sorry Mitchell....


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks everyone who has contributed.... and put their thoughts into this thread...I was told earlier that I should be thankful that Im not going through it....and my response was, that unfortunately I cant say that...Im not sure how many of you understood what I meant.....Im going through it twice....for me and my friend.......

I have learned a lot from the responses to this thread, all of your words....Ive learned a lot....

Ive learned two critical things.....firstly, that its not alcohol, its pain..and why do i still feel pain, partly because ive been living like my ex wife just left me last week.....its been over 3 years and ive been living every day like she just left me last week...its like a part of my mind refuses to accept that the woman i thought i would die with would leave me....her name is Lisa and no other woman can hold a candle to her....i still love her and miss her....ive only realized these two things due to this thread and i feel like 50 lbs. of weight has been lifted off of me....

thank you everyone for that....

and, i think we do change every day.....every day, we are not the same person we were yesterday.....some days, we change more than others.....


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Hardwater - Its not easy, but you and you friend need to realize his wife is dead and won't be coming back and your wife is gone and won't be coming back. We only have a limited number of days on this earth and life is too short to dwell in the past. Tomorrow is the 1st day of the rest of your life. Live it to the fullest. I'm sure his wife didn't want him to mope around for the rest of his life. Sorry if this comes out too strong, I don't mean any harm.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

no... thats the truth..that is reality and thats whats hard to accept....i understand....thank you.....i agree with you, she would not want that for him.....


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## BassHunter45 (Mar 11, 2013)

I'm a former alcoholic who drank heavily for 10 plus years. The thing that helped best for me was talk therapy, I joined an online community of former and current alcoholics and it let me relate to people who have the same problem as me. He should find some support group whether AA or remain anonymous through something online. Alcoholism never really goes away permanently and its a daily struggle. The withdrawal from not drinking used to be so unbearable that I continued to drink just to calm my nerves. If he's open to reading tell him to pickup a book called "The Naked Mind," it's a book that has helped a lot of my friends quit alcohol. Just be supportive and good luck.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Glad this got bumped back up, because there's something I forgot to say.

There's light at the end of the tunnel


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

acklac7 said:


> Glad this got bumped back up, because there's something I forgot to say.
> 
> There's light at the end of the tunnel


Always!!!
The person just needs to realize that and do whatever it takes to make their minds up to seek it out.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

fastwater said:


> Always!!!
> The person just needs to realize that and do whatever it takes to make their minds up to seek it out.


Easier said then done when in the midst of a personal loss.

Important to add that while I do enjoy a few beers every night, and may get drunk about once every month or so, I've never considered myself or a drunk or an alcoholic.

I do consider myself someone who's lost a great deal, and that's what this thread is about.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

acklac7 said:


> Easier said then done when in the midst of a personal loss.
> 
> Important to add that while I do enjoy a few beers every night, and may get drunk about once every month or so, I've never considered myself or a drunk or an alcoholic.
> 
> I do consider myself someone who's lost a great deal, and that's what this thread is about.


Yes it is easier said than done in the midst of a personal loss.
That's why it's so very important to get the proper counseling while going through the natural grieving process of the personal loss. Turning to booze or drugs to mask the pain is what makes alcoholics/addicts. If someone is turning to either to mask pain, there's a problem there regardless if they feel they have a problem or not. If that same person is self medicating with alcohol/drugs often enough and regularly enough, it then becomes a physical need/addiction for the booze/drugs. Not just a psychological need.
Believe it when I tell you that there are people that have drank but would never take a drink before a certain time of day. But they took the 1st drink and started drinking religiously at the same time most everyday for years. After while, it's not just a mental need for that alcohol at that certain time of day. Their body is physically calling for the alcohol. To the point they don't even need a clock or watch to tell you when that 'witching hour' has arrived. Their body tells them.


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## BassHunter45 (Mar 11, 2013)

fastwater said:


> Yes it is easier said than done in the midst of a personal loss.
> That's why it's so very important to get the proper counseling while going through the natural grieving process of the personal loss. Turning to booze or drugs to mask the pain is what makes alcoholics/addicts. If someone is turning to either to mask pain, there's a problem there regardless if they feel they have a problem or not. If that same person is self medicating with alcohol/drugs often enough and regularly enough, it then becomes a physical need/addiction for the booze/drugs. Not just a psychological need.
> Believe it when I tell you that there are people that have drank but would never take a drink before a certain time of day. But they took the 1st drink and started drinking religiously at the same time most everyday for years. After while, it's not just a mental need for that alcohol at that certain time of day. Their body is physically calling for the alcohol. To the point they don't even need a clock or watch to tell you when that 'witching hour' has arrived. Their body tells them.


You're exactly right, when I was an alcoholic, my body and mind would put the alcohol before food and water. I would also limit how much I bought every night because I would drink everything in sight.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

i thank everyone for your openness and honesty in this thread....

i admit i would not drive through a blizzard for food, id be fine not to eat for a day or two...i hate driving in the snow.....but if i was out of whiskey nothing would stop me from stopping off on the way home to buy some.....air...coffee...whiskey..rum...cigs.......must haves....i dont care about food....

so sorry if im destroying my rep......but it feels good to just say it "out loud".....and thanks for listening....thank you my friends....

and now let me "double down".......

i have a family member that i suspect is addicted to heroin/opiates......and from what im gathering, there is no hope, because this person experienced no trigger.....there was no loss nor pain......im not 100 % sure......but i suspect an addiction to heroin or something........im 45 and im out of touch with the modern things that are out there....

is there anything i can do for this person.....or just more of the same types of things that have been suggested previously......


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

hardwater...heroin is beyond horrible and well beyond the capabilities of family members to stop it... professional help in a rehab clinic is the only way out of that.


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## 1more (Jan 10, 2015)

Question for all? Am I a acholic, I have a very good job but very stressful. I get up every day at 5:15 leave home by 7:30 bust my butt till I get my calls done, get home fill out call reports for the day, watch the news then eat. Relax for a bit go to my man cave and drink 10 beers a night listening to sports talk. In bed at 10 and do it over the next day. I never miss a night without beer...


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

1more said:


> Question for all? Am I a acholic, I have a very good job but very stressful. I get up every day at 5:15 leave home by 7:30 bust my butt till I get my calls done, get home fill out call reports for the day, watch the news then eat. Relax for a bit go to my man cave and drink 10 beers a night listening to sports talk. In bed at 10 and do it over the next day. I never miss a night without beer...


I never miss a night without a few beers either, am I an "alcoholic" ??

That question is probably best answered/discussed in another thread


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## 1more (Jan 10, 2015)

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, I was just concerned that I might have a issue?


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

1more said:


> Question for all? Am I a acholic, I have a very good job but very stressful. I get up every day at 5:15 leave home by 7:30 bust my butt till I get my calls done, get home fill out call reports for the day, watch the news then eat. Relax for a bit go to my man cave and drink 10 beers a night listening to sports talk. In bed at 10 and do it over the next day. I never miss a night without beer...


Have known more than a few 'working' alcoholics. They never missed work and most did a good job while at work.
But yet they were still alcoholics. What made them alcoholics is the fact they couldn't stop drinking. In other words, the booze was controlling them instead of them controlling the booze. They had ceased to be an occasional, sociable drinker that didn't have to drink every night. They ceased to be a person that could have a fridge full of beer or a bottle in the house without having one in their hand till they went to bed. 
An alcoholic, just like any addict, isn't something we wake up one day and become. It's something that happens over a period of time with religious use of the substance. 
That being said, I guess the only person that can 'honestly' answer that question is you. 
Can you go without it?
Can you sit in your man cave drinking a pop, water, iced tea etc. without it bothering you?
Can you go 2-3 days or even a week without drinking and that doesn't bother you?

Also, ten beers every night consistantly is a lot of alcohol to be consuming. I think your question is a fair one...and one that you seriously have to 'honestly' ask yourself and give a lot of thought to.
I think another fair question is how long you think your liver will hold out at that pace? 
Here's another...did you start out drinking 10 a night or did you graduate to that? And if you graduated to that number...will 10 turn to an even dozen, then 14? Then maybe the hard stuff.

Again, addiction, in whatever form never stays the same. It gets better(we stop) or it gets worse (till we crash).


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

An "Alcoholic" is someone who drinks to the extent his or her life becomes significantly malformative, a person who's body is surviving on Alcohol, A person who:

-Takes Shots in the Morning before work
-Takes an early lunch (11am) such that they can slam a 6-pack
-Keeps a cooler in their car such that they can drink on the way home
-Keeps a flask on them at all times


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

9Left said:


> hardwater...heroin is beyond horrible and well beyond the capabilities of family members to stop it... professional help in a rehab clinic is the only way out of that.


"Heroin is the Devil" - coming from every last addict you see on the news.


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## BassHunter45 (Mar 11, 2013)

hardwaterfan said:


> i thank everyone for your openness and honesty in this thread....
> 
> i admit i would not drive through a blizzard for food, id be fine not to eat for a day or two...i hate driving in the snow.....but if i was out of whiskey nothing would stop me from stopping off on the way home to buy some.....air...coffee...whiskey..rum...cigs.......must haves....i dont care about food....
> 
> ...


I suspect you might have a small drinking problem. If you drink more than 3-4 beers every night or binge drink weekly then it may be time to consider cutting back. Alcohol is a depressant and slows the central nervous system to the point when it doesn't have alcohol it's in "rebound" mode where your brain is going 100 mph an hour your heart rate increases you feel tense and have anxiety and you can't sleep worth a crap. Once I quit alcohol it took me a whole week until my body finally started adjusting and I slept better, my stress went away and I no longer felt tense. Most people don't realize this but alcohol just adds to the stress in your life because when you don't have alcohol in your system, you are even more anxious!!


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## BassHunter45 (Mar 11, 2013)

1more said:


> Question for all? Am I a acholic, I have a very good job but very stressful. I get up every day at 5:15 leave home by 7:30 bust my butt till I get my calls done, get home fill out call reports for the day, watch the news then eat. Relax for a bit go to my man cave and drink 10 beers a night listening to sports talk. In bed at 10 and do it over the next day. I never miss a night without beer...


Yes I hate to say this but you do have a drinking problem. You mentioned that it's very stressful, believe it or not the alcohol adds to the stress since when you don't have alcohol in the system you experience withdrawal in as little as two hours after your last drink. Look up alcohol withdrawal symptoms and see if any of these symptoms match up and try to go a week without drinking. (It gets really hard around day 2-3) that's when the symptoms are the worst. I drinked heavily for ten years and for the first time in a decade I live a stress free life due to saying goodbye to alcohol. I picked up cigarettes as my new habit two months ago but I'm working on quitting that as well. P.S. You are what we call a high functioning alcoholic which is what I was I could slam a 12 pack and be at work the next day and bust ass, but after a decade of doing it, the booze was taking a toll on my body. High blood pressure etc. if you are thinking of quitting, talking therapy seems to work the best and is what worked for me, like we are doing right now talking about our problems and reflecting you can go to AA or remain anynomus on an online AA community.


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## BassHunter45 (Mar 11, 2013)

fastwater said:


> Have known more than a few 'working' alcoholics. They never missed work and most did a good job while at work.
> But yet they were still alcoholics. What made them alcoholics is the fact they couldn't stop drinking. In other words, the booze was controlling them instead of them controlling the booze. They had ceased to be an occasional, sociable drinker that didn't have to drink every night. They ceased to be a person that could have a fridge full of beer or a bottle in the house without having one in their hand till they went to bed.
> An alcoholic, just like any addict, isn't something we wake up one day and become. It's something that happens over a period of time with religious use of the substance.
> That being said, I guess the only person that can 'honestly' answer that question is you.
> ...


I agree with a lot of what you had to say but alcoholism comes from a lot of different factors rather than increased religious use of the substance over time. Genetic factors and environment play a big role as well. Some of us are just hard wired that way and much more susceptible to succumb to addiction.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

i dont think " alcoholic" is really a great term ... " dependancy" is more fitting...anyway what I'm trying to say is, if your body functions "normally" on the drug....and "abnormally" off the drug, then you definitely have a dependency or addiction problem. so if you go and drink 10 beers every night… Try it for a week straight without touching beer at all...if you find yourself getting mad, losing your temper over small issues, not sleeping well,etc.... then Yep it's definitely a problem

... and I will add this, even if you convince yourself that you're not addicted… Drinking 10 beers every night and never missing a night it's going to land you in one place… And that is an early grave… Your liver your heart and your kidneys absolutely cannot tolerate that .


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

Two of my best friends have drank themselves to death. Both refused to believe they had a problem. One was the same age as I the other 12 years younger. I have had family members who have struggled with drink. I believe AA has the best way to cope with this. I attended several meetings and read their handbook to support a close family member.
It is a disease that cannot be cured. Control can be exercised by the individual with absolute abstention from any intake of liquor. Alcoholics respect those who have gone thru the same struggle.

Reading the AA handbook helped me to understand. Why sometime " help " is often termed enabling.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

BassHunter45 said:


> I agree with a lot of what you had to say but alcoholism comes from a lot of different factors rather than increased religious use of the substance over time. Genetic factors and environment play a big role as well. Some of us are just hard wired that way and much more susceptible to succumb to addiction.


Absolutely correct BassHunter45.
There are other factors that help us fall to alcoholism and addiction. Some of us are more prone to addiction than others for various reasons.
There are also different 'styles' if you will of alcoholics. Opposite of the everyday drinker, there was someone very close to me that was a binge drinker. He may go 6 months to a year and never drink. But once he started, it was drinking 24/7 until usually he was admitted into the hospital to get dried out. Sometimes the drinking lasted a month...sometimes a couple months. And I'm talking literally living on booze. Then he would go through another stint of time of sobriety. And what was really puzzling about him is he made home brew for probably 20 yrs and always had access to as much alcohol everyday if he wanted to drink. I've seen him go through a binge, get out of the hospital and within a couple days after coming home be back downstairs making brew and not have any desire to drink it. Watching him do this, we've had several talks over those yrs. and I asked him if it bothered him or if he had the desire to start drinking right away again when he came home and started back to his brewing? He response was always, " no, it doesn't bother me to be around alcohol when I'm not drinking". Of course, this person would do the same with cigarettes. He would smoke for 2,3,4yrs then out of the blue, quit for 2,3,4yrs.
He laid the booze and cigarettes down for good at about 54yrs old when he almost died coming off about a 1 1/2 binge in which he started heaving at home and started bleeding profusely from nose, mouth and rectum.
He was rushed to Grant Hosp. where they ran a scope down his throat to try and see where the bleeding was coming from but he was bleeding so bad they couldn't see anything with the scope. They started him on bags of blood but he was loosing it almost as fast as they were putting it in.
To try and slow the internal bleeding down, they packed him in what looked like a livestock water trough filled with ice and had fans blowing on him. He had a plastic tubes inserted down each nostril. One pumping ice water in...the other pumping blood and ice water out. They kept him packed in this ice for about 5 hrs but never did slow the bleeding enough to be able to scope the problem. Doctor finally came in a said that his system will not take anymore of the 'icing' and that they had used 14 units of blood on him(the body only holds 8-12 I believe) and that they were going to have to do an emergency exploratory surgery. They cut him from the middle of his chest down to his belly button. What they found was that the esophagus and torn loose from his stomach most likely caused from the excessive heaving he was doing coming off the binge. Which made sense that they couldn't see anything with the scope.
At any rate, I want to add that I was with this person, at his side from the time he entered the Hosp. until he was rushed to emerg. Surgery and I want to say the he endured everything up until the emerg. surgery conscious and without any forms of meds. Obviously, they couldn't give him anything not knowing what was going on. I watched his body literally turn grey in color from the cold and shake uncontrollably. He begged for a coat,blanket or anything to get warm. He begged for the fans to be turned off. He endlessly looked me in the eye, begged and pleaded for me to get him out of that trough telling me they were freezing him to death. 
Needless to say, other than watching a dear friend of mine that was as close to me as my siblings drink himself to death after he came back from Vietnam, it was one of the hardest things I've ever experienced. And, an experience that, as I look back today I needed for my own situation at the time.
Lastly, if we are drinking to the point we think we may have a problem or at least wondering if we do, there's a very good chance that are suspicions are warranted and even a better chance that we actually do have an issue.
And if we see someone else with an addiction problem and we think we may have one ourselves, my suggestion is get help for yourself before you try helping others. I can assure you if you haven't got help yet, went through the experiences of getting sober yourself, you are not strong enough and you don't have the tools to really help someone else. There's a lot more to getting sober and staying that way than just drying out. There's a big learning curve as well.
If we are not an addict and see someone we want to help, we need to seriously educate ourselves prior to helping. There are just too many ways to screw up and hurt the situation rather than help without getting educated ourselves.


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## hardwaterfan (Apr 6, 2004)

damn scary stuff guys....thanks again for participating......please everyone speak your mind....as the OP ill say i want to hear anything and everything anyone has to say.....


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