# Couple of reloading questions



## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Some of you may recall that I was buying a Lee press to do my rifle reloading. I am working with 30-06 so far and have had some pretty good success. We have not gotten a chance to experiment too much on the different loads yet but the results on what we are using currently is pretty good. I do have a couple of questions that I have not been able to clear up yet.

Initially I struggled a bit understanding the die setup for length and bullet seating but I seem to have it working well now but I have a question in regards to crimping. I have read in several places about crimping the bullets but it seems to only apply to bullets with crimping groove? In one place that is what I read but in another it says that ammo for hunting should always have the bullet crimped in place. This is confusing to me. The bullets that I am using are Sierra HPBT which are jacketed and have no crimp groove.

The other question that I have has to do with the shell cases that we have. We have several empties and most say 30-06 Sprg on the bottom that clearly refers to Springfields. The others do not say this but rather have some other letters on them. I don't have one right now so I can not recall what exactly they said. The dimensions on the cases seem identical to the Springfields. The only difference that I have noticed is that the primers will not seat in them. They are slightly tighter. I am using 210 primers. Are these actually not Springfield cases? And should they not be used in the rifle?

I am sure that I will have some more questions along the way but I have really learned a lot so far but have a long way to go.


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## C.Keith&Co (Aug 28, 2010)

Hi Brian, to answer your first question on crimping, everyone I know that shoots competition crimp their bullets with a very light touch- the best thing for this is one of those Lee factory crimp dies - you do not want to crimp too hard because it ruins the ballistic coefficient of the bullet - ( noticeable bulge on the bullet where it is crimped ) after you get you bullets seated to the proper depth - back the seating stem out a few turns - run the loaded round up into the die and turn the die down into the press until it stops on the loaded round, lower the loaded round out of the die a little and gently turn the die down just a touch- raise the round back into the die and you should feel a slight drag where it is being crimped- that should be all you need for a crimp- your other question on the brass is what you have is some military brass that the primer has been crimped in place- you need to remove that crimp, Dillon makes a sweet little press for that or you can buy a RCBS die set also- if you only have a few of them just pitch them its not worth the expense of the die set- if you have a couple of hundred rounds and plan on shooting military brass a lot you should buy the crimp removal dies. another point on military brass is to look down inside the casing and see if you can see one hole or two holes. if it has one hole you can reload it- if it has two holes throw it out it is a Berdan primed case and you will bust the de-capping pin on you sizer die if you try to re-size it. speaking of de-capping pins go down to your local automotive garage and see if they have any old pick-up truck u-joints laying around -the little needle bearings inside the caps will fit in your de-capping rod on RCBS dies. free is my favorite four letter F word. if you have any questions call me after 5:00 pm 234-788-7337 hope this was helpful- Curtis


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## ODNR3723 (Apr 12, 2007)

I have never heard that about the decapping rod. Free is the best. On the military crimp, the dillon press works great. If you have a few pieces, try using you deburring tool before you throw them out. You can usually get your primers to seat after using your deburring tool a few times. Lots of brass, buy the dillon.


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## C.Keith&Co (Aug 28, 2010)

yeah I was at the gas station one time years ago getting some snow tires put on and I happen to look in the trash and seen a old U joint in there with the cap full of needle bearings looking at me- and I thought wonder what the chances of that are- took the caps out of the trash got about 20 pins or so, cleaned the grease off -stuck one in my de-capping rod worked great, I haven't purchased pins in years . ever try STP for case lube ? that works too- I just tumble the brass real good to get the STP off. Safety Kleen sells a pulverized corn cob oil dry for about $10.00 a 50 lb bag. I use that in my tumbler with a half a shot glass of mineral spirits that cleans brass up great ! lot cheaper than a one pound can of corn cob. - Curtis


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Some great info guys! Thanks for taking the time.

I didn't fully understand the crimping process itself but your explanation really seems to make sense. I may play with that a bit and see if I can get it to work. As you said I am not going to try to put much on them. I noticed that the edges don't fit real snug on them although the bullet is seated tightly. If I can just bump them a hair with the crimp that might be the answer. And as far as the military brass I will try the deburring tool on them. I don't have hundreds of them but probably do have nearly 100. It would be nice be able to use them. I don't think I have the Berdan primed cases because I decapped several and didn't notice any difference. And I didn't break my decapping pin.

I have read a bit about improving accuracy by maximizing your overall length and reducing free travel. Is this something worth pursuing at this point? Also to that same point I am not sure what the minimum length of the rear of the bullet should be used for seating. Obviously if you lengthen the OAL you lose some in the neck. For now I have just been going pretty much where the length is on the ammo that we have been shooting.


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## C.Keith&Co (Aug 28, 2010)

you can try this- take a full length sized and trimmed brass , leave the powder and primer out, take a Dremel tool with a cut off wheel or a jewelers saw , coping saw , band saw ect. and cut straight down the case neck about halfway into the shoulder of the brass. use a file or sandpaper to remove any burrs from cutting. pinch the neck closed a little with your fingers and seat a bullet in the case neck just far enough so it wont fall out. put the round in the chamber of the rifle and gently close the bolt on it, the bullet will contact the lands and groves in your barrel and stop -the rest of the bullet will get pushed into the cut brass casing- open the bolt slowly and extract the cartridge -take it out and measure the over all length of it. try seating your bullets 0.020 deeper than the O.A.L. of that split neck cartridge you made. its not as accurate as a Stony Point O.A.L. Gauge but its close. lot cheaper too- have a nice day, Curtis


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## C.Keith&Co (Aug 28, 2010)

spelling correction- should be lands and grooves not lands and groves


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## Rednek (Nov 6, 2006)

Brian,

Most rifles will perform better when the bullets are not allowed to "jump" into the riflings but it is not always the case. Some shoot their best when the bullet just touches the riflings and others might shoot better as far as .050" away. Each barrel, load and bullet will all show different characteristics.

Here are a couple of other ways to check for the O.A.L. to the riflings.

1. Just barely resize the neck of the case so that it will keep the bullet snug, but loose enough that the lands will push the bullet further into the case neck when the dummy round is loaded. Then load the dummy round as Curtis says and measure for O.A.L.

2. Full length size a dummy case and seat a bullet about .010" longer than what you measured in step 1. Now color the bullet ogive with a permanant black marker and chamber the dummy round. You will notice definite scratches in the black ink from the lands of the riflings. Keep coloring the bullet with permanant ink and adjusted the seating die down until you no longer see scratches on the bullet. This will be the O.A.L. of the cartridge for that particular bullet and you can keep that dummy round to set your seating die each time you load that particular bullet.

A couple things worth noting.

Each different bullet that you use will have a different O.A.L. due to the bullet style and the ogive of the bullet.

What for signs of increased chamber pressure when stretching bullets out to the riflings.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Once again thanks a ton guys for the info! I am definitely a newbie at this reloading but I have learned a great deal over the last couple of weeks. I went home last night and put the slight crimp on a few of the ones I already had loaded. Curtis, your description of the process was spot on. It did tighten up the edge of the case seating. You mentioned doing this after the bullet seating process. Once this depth is established could it not be performed at the same time as the bullet seating? Or am I better off doing it separately?

I have not tried to mess with that military brass again yet but I am anxious to do so as that would make a lot more brass available to us. I also may do some checking on the OAL using one of the methods suggested. 

Mark, you mentioned to watch for increased when stretching bullets out to riflings. Can you elaborate on that? I would not have given that a consideration so if I can understand the physics behind it that would certainly help.

I went out last evening for a bit with my son to do some hog hunting. I haven't gotten much of a chance to do so yet this summer so it was great. He had initially texted me frustrated because he whiffed on a groundhog from just under 100 yards. He was not sure where he missed but before I could get out to him to spot for him he had figured out that he missed high. He figured it out by popping 2 hogs from about the same distance. While I was out there with him he took a shot at one from 230 yards and just missed over top. We made a windage adjustment and then he popped one from about the same distance. I think with some more work tweaking the loads and him learning the ballistics on them he will be shooting great groups. I am going to try loading them just a bit hotter than we currently did to see how they compare. I had started with sierra match bullet HPBT's in 155 grain which performed well. My son had ordered some A-Max in the same weight. They are very similar bullets with the exception of the polymer tip. We have not bench tested the A-Max but those are the ones he was using when he got the groundhogs so I would call them a "hit".


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## C.Keith&Co (Aug 28, 2010)

everyone I know does the bullet crimp as a separate process with a Lee factory Crimp die but try making 3 rounds crimped separately and 3 rounds seated and crimped at the same time - take a target or some cardboard and shoot 2 -3 round groups of each and see if it makes a difference for you. the majority of people I know are target shooters and they do rocket science ammunition -they want to shoot 1" group at 600 yards everything we do with ammunition reloading is a separate process for groundhog, coyote, etc. separate crimp may not make that much difference for you.


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## sbreech (Jun 6, 2010)

I never crimp, but I don't hunt - simply bench rest any more. Consistency is key for accuracy. I do weigh each charge, measure each case, weigh each bullet, etc etc, and group each item into like weights (cases and bullets). Any more, I just shoot .308, and out of my rifle, it really likes 168gr. Sierra HPBT 42.2gr Varget and Federal Match primers. I'd love to see a 1" group at 600yards. That would be incredible shooting, and I wish I could do that.  I do know that in all of our rounds were crimped in the army, but the major reason for the crimp was to keep the bullet seated to the correct depth = facilitate maintaining accuracy. My God I miss Fort Benning.... (I must be sick in the head).


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## C.Keith&Co (Aug 28, 2010)

Hey sbreech-Your a man after my own heart ! I love the .308 , I shoot a NM M1A , Im a fool for tradition I guess, everybody else is shooting an AR-15 , I like robust pow of a .308 - oh yeah I have seen those 1" groups at 600 yards but its not just the ammo you have to have a rifle capable of shooting a group like that and a good trigger man- I cant shoot a group like that but my shooting partner can take my bolt gun and do it ( talk about embarrassing ) take that ammo your making and feed it into one of Kelbly's bench guns and you'll be amazed what it can do. I haven't seen too many out of the box rifles except maybe a Remington PSS that can shoot groups like that, I would love to get my hands on one of those new Savage F class rifles and see what it can do -I hear they are amazing. have a nice day-Curtis


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

My son's buddy has a 308 that he is working with to try and get in to long range target competition. His goal is 1,000 yard shots. He is not there yet but he has not had the gun for all that long. I have not shot it nor have I watched him but my son said it shoots incredible. I believe he is shooting A-Max bullets in that same weight range that you mentioned. Not sure what the exact weight is. It may be 168. I know my son shot it a bit the other day when they were out. He nailed one groundhog at 320. Then they put a water jug at 400 and he nailed it first shot as well. As you mentioned for the normal person this gun is totally accurate. For competitive shooting it takes even better.

Oh by the way, I think I jinxed myself. Friday night I broke my decapping pin. Never had an issue with it before and then started talking about it. Mine is a Lyman die and has a threaded adapter for the tips so I am thinking that the needle bearings won't work in it? Anyway I ordered 4 more while I was at it. I think I got too quick and careless when raising the case. I think the issue may have been that I did not have it centered well in the holder. It was a military brass but these only have the one hole so I am thinking they should decap fine with my die. I just need to slow down on them.


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## Bwana J (Sep 12, 2010)

Military primers are crimped in after they're seated to prevent them from backing out and can be hard to deprime, thats why your pin broke. Sometimes they get a bit overcrimped. Theres a special tool to use to cut away the crimped material that should be used before trying to seat new primers. Care should be used when repriming military brass, if the crimp isn't removed it could prevent primer from seating and if its forced it could cause primer to detonate rather than seat into the primer pocket.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

Before I broke that pin I was able to take 4-5 and decap them. I then lightly ran over them with the debur tool before hand priming them. This seemed to work pretty well and they primed with the same push as the others. If I can get them all decapped by working carefully to ensure that I am straight and steady then I am thinking I will be fine to use them.


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## Rednek (Nov 6, 2006)

bkr43050 said:


> Mark, you mentioned to watch for increased when stretching bullets out to riflings. Can you elaborate on that? I would not have given that a consideration so if I can understand the physics behind it that would certainly help.


Brian,

When a bullet is seated to touch the riflings is takes more effort to get the bullet started. This little bit of extra effort will increase your chamber pressure.

Increases in chamber pressure are easily seen at the head of the cartridge. First sign is a flattened primer, then a shiny mark left by the extractor pin of the bolt and finally a crater in the primer left by the firing pin. The first 2 signs are generally not over maximum chamber pressure, just signs that you are close. Cratered primers are definitely a sign of too much chamber pressure and the load needs reduced.

FYI, I never crimp any rifle bullets and all my loads will shoot sub M.O.A.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

After asking that question I was able to think through it and had come to the same reasoning as you explained. I did not however know give any thought to the visual signs to watch for. Do you by chance have any links to sites with pictures of the conditions you explained? I am pretty sure we are not near that condition at this point but I want to fully educate myself on what to watch for if we start bumping up the loads.


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## bkr43050 (Apr 5, 2004)

With a quick search I found this link to a nice video of sign of excessive pressure.


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