# Dead/Dying Carp on GMR?



## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

Hey all...I was out on the GMR last night and saw a large number of dead carp and also several carp that seemed weak and dying. The ones I saw that were dying seemd to have some sores on them and also had a reddish look to some of their bodies.


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## tpet96 (Apr 6, 2004)

Carpn,

You might want to contact the DNR officer for your county. It might be just from the post-spawn time, but in Southern Ohio, especially river spawning, should have happened a while back. Sounds more like a parasite outbreak that happened on the Ohio River a few years back. Killed 10's of Thousands of Carp. Definately worth checking into.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2004)

I caught a carp out of Rocky Fork the other day and one of its side fins were covered with red sores. It was so bad it looked like it was about to rot off or somthing. It was pretty sick.


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## Carpn (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't really think it is post spawn trauma..Could be though...I know i saw over 100 in various stages of death from fresh to several days old...I fish this area often and have never seen more than a few dead fish there at a time.Also saw sevarl fish floating on their sides barely alive and also in the shallows laying there..When they would spook they would not dart off...just very slowly swim like it was the very last thing they wanted to do...
I'm concerned it is one of the carp specific killers that have hit recently in other areas...


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Man, I sure hope not. I didnt see any off of Rip Rap Road last Sunday, but then again the water runs fairly swift in that area. Please keep us posted, if you havent called ODNR please do.


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## tpet96 (Apr 6, 2004)

H2O, only problem is........if it is the parasite, there is nothing the DNR can do except let the problem take it's course. It's not a pretty sight. I would imagine though only being the small amount that it is, that it would be something else. Although who knows. I'm no expert


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

Like Shawn said there probably isn't much that can be done about it, thats a heck of a thing though to bad all those carp are dying.


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## bowhazard (Apr 19, 2004)

Did a search and came up with a couple of links,

SVC (same symptoms as Carpn described)
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM106
70% mortality = NOT GOOD! 

Red Sore Disease (traphunter's fish)
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_VM059


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## Procraftboats21 (Apr 6, 2004)

same thing happened on the montgomery and cumberland pools on the ohio river a couple years ago, dead and dying carp everywhere.


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## Miso_Ohio (Apr 6, 2004)

How long does a fish have to be in our waters before it becomes native???

They have been there for hundreds of years, they haven't done near the damage to our fisheries and "native species" the man has done. By the way if you went back in time to before when carp where released into the wild, you may be surprised at what is really native to a body of water and what is not. 

If you want to just hate the Common Carp because they are a Common Carp that is fine but don't hate them because we stocked them there hundreds of years ago. Also don't hate them because they share the same last name as a couple of new comers to the water ways that have people freaked out, that is like you hating my Great Great Great GrandUncle twice removed because I ran over your favorite mailbox. 

I wonder if in 300 years people will be complaining about the state stocked trout, steelhead, stripers and the list goes on and on that have been introduced to bodies of water that never had these species before?


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Mushijobah,

I think you may want to think about speaking, or typing. I would hope that we wouldnt have someone, a fellow "fisherman" on here saying something that ignorant.

Back up & rethink your statement.


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## jayjc77 (May 19, 2004)

I like the carp. I don't to eat them or keep them, but I sure do like to hook into a good sized carp and fight it a few minutes.

I can only imagine what the banks and ponds would look like without carp...... Seaweed anyone?

If everyone hated non-natives, a majority of us would be in limbo.

PEACE. 

JC


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## Oldfox1939 (Apr 14, 2004)

I have an acre pond with about a dozen KOI and some grass carp......have four dead in the last week.

These fish are about 12 years old, one grass carp that died is well over 3 foot.

This is the first I've lost in the 12 years since the pond was built.

Haven't a clue as to what's up?


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Well, I just bought some goldfish on Friday. I took them out for a few minutes last night & sure enough one of them has red sores on its body. So how could this have happened? It wasnt in a big body of water or anything like that. COuld it be somethign that hits certain carp, in large bodies of water or even not in them?


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## johnboy111711 (Apr 7, 2004)

I saw the same thing happen to a few carp in the upper cuyahoga last year. some actually beached themselve on a rip rap bank. looked like a nervous disorder


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## sowbelly101 (Apr 5, 2004)

ive seen this before and it was a fish kill from a fertilizer company. im not saying this is what it is but there were a ton of carp in the river trying to throw themselves on the bank, maybe with the recent rains there has been some runoff from the fields that may have had some fertilzer or some sort of pesticide recently sprayed. the waters that were affected could had a high concentration of the chemicals , then as they mixed in the river it diloutted (sp) enough to not cause any problems with the fish...

sowbelly


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Miso_Ohio said:


> How long does a fish have to be in our waters before it becomes native???
> 
> They have been there for hundreds of years, they haven't done near the damage to our fisheries and "native species" the man has done. By the way if you went back in time to before when carp where released into the wild, you may be surprised at what is really native to a body of water and what is not.
> 
> ...




I think you have it all wrong. It is not about them being non-native. It is the fact that they are probably the most destructive factor in rivers and lakes, in ohio. If you do not believe this, talk to the odnr, epa, whoever. They all know. In central ohio streams the total biomass of fish consists of 50% carp, can you say infestation? Give me some information on how carp are GOOD for our streams, and i might think about not hating them. As far as i know, every carp i catch is racoon food or garden fertalizer.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

Here:

http://www.elektrik-sheep.com/story/EpFkEAlplEsiMHPDAE.shtml

http://www.texs.com/magazine/page11.cfm

http://www.afsifs.vt.edu/

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/EXOTICSP/related_links.htm

(Good One)
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/EXOTICSP/links/general_web_sites.htm#ippp

http://www.great-lakes.net/envt/flora-fauna/invasive/carp.html

"Carp degrade shallow lakes by causing excessive turbidity, which can lead to declines in waterfowl and important native fish species. The common carp was introduced by unintentional release in 1879."

Come on Mishio, hundreds of years usually means more than 125 years doesnt it?

Now everyone, do not get me wrong. I love fishing for carp, and if i did catch a huge 20 pound plus carp, I would let it go. But guess what, rarely does a 20 pound carp occur in ohio because they are overpopulated and stunted. I could be totally wrong in my accusations, i just like to go along with what the ODNR, EPA, and university research projects say. I can't wait for your comments.

p.s. carp do not eat sea weed, and if they did, they would have to be _osmoregulators_. (that means can live in either salt or fresh water)


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## cwcarper (Apr 5, 2004)

I say they're here to stay so you might as well enjoy catching them...not getting into the arguments over how destructive they are (or aren't) as it's been talked about over and over again...but i do know there are plenty of places in Ohio to catch 20+ pound carp...and places where 12-15 lb fish are the average catch. Can't say that about many other species around here...


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

wish my average catch was that high for carp. where are you getting 20+ pounders, i promise i wont fish it


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## Miso_Ohio (Apr 6, 2004)

Yes your statement about carp routing up shallow areas and degrading vegetation is true, but the same can be said about just about every species of fish, that is what fish do when they prepare to spawn. Common Carp have a very high tolerance for man made pollution that is why on some of our more polluted waters, the native game fish has disappeared and the carp have overtaken them. 

As for asking the local ODNR, just about every one I have talked to has no ill feelings toward the common carp (Asian species are a different story), in fact they seem very interested in them. If they wanted to do away with them so bad, why do they throw them back when they electrocute the water? Carp is a pretty profitable fish up in the great lakes, I invite you to hit east harbor in the spring and watch the carp netting outfits that go on up there, big money to be made. In other parts of the country it is gaining a huge following, attracting tourist money from other countries for the great carp fishing we have here.

As for the eating habits, a lot of people do not know this but carp love mussels, in fact in Erie as we speak, one of their favorite meals are zebra mussels. Granted hundreds of years were probably a little far fetched, 130 years is a more real number. Keep in mind they where stocked hard at first, they spread quickly. I don't see them getting any worse or better as they are right now, they have pretty much gotten everywhere and have been there for a long time and they are not going anywhere.

Keep in mind young carp are a very popular food source for many game fish, some flathead fishermen have been know to use carp up to 2-3 Lbs and larger for bait. Grass carp are stocked by the ODNR in many waterways in OH and in a few lakes (Ross) are a protected species, better not get caught killing one. How many ODNR officers have you talked to about this subject, in my experience with them has been nothing but positive. 

While carp do not exist in full salt water, they do thrive very well in highly saline waters, some huge fish are taken every year in the highly salty tidal brackish waters around many bays all around America.

As for the size of them, I will admit I know of a couple little lakes in OH that do have an overpopulation of them and catching a fish over 9 Lbs is a challenge. Keep in mind the number of lakes I have been too with stunted carp in them has paled in comparison to the lakes and ponds with stunted blue gills and bass. The carp has long been blamed for many things that is not entire its fault, the blame for a lot of the problems today can be put on the single most destructive animal in the kingdom, man. 

I will give you one link to a brief history of carp in America, pay particular attention to the last two parts talking about are useless attempts to try and control them. Keep in mind I am talking about the common carp for the most part, not the recently introduced Silver, Bighead and other new Asian species that are in the news recently. As for not being able to find spots where the fish average 12-15 Lbs with an occasional 20+, I say you must not be looking very hard. Those spots are everywhere; the first place I would look is any decent size river near your house. Around my area I am partial to the Sciota, Buckeye Lake and Alum, by the way Alum is crystal clear, and so is Buckeye before the Algae bloom that hits it every year.



http://www.nps.gov/miss/features/rufffish/history.htm


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## cwcarper (Apr 5, 2004)

Sean...you make a good point about young carp and carp fry providing a major foodsource for many species of gamefish. I've heard from an ODNR official that one of the reasons Buckeye Lake is able to support so many fish (from both natural reproduction and the extremely heavy stocking programs in that lake) are because of the carp fry. And as far as fish averaging 12-15 lbs with good chances at 20+ lb fish...Sean pretty much gave you a few great examples. Another one is West Branch...where just a month ago a few hundred fish were landed over the weekend with most fish weighing in the mid teens and multiple 20+ fish were caught. Most places hold large carp...you just have to know what to look for and how to target them since it's usually a completely different approach when compared to targetting numbers of fish.


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## Mushijobah (May 4, 2004)

I have a very difficult time believing that carp actually benefit native or purposely stocked species. It is also hard to contemplate North America without carp. Carp may benefit our native species, but the logical answer to that begins with carps behaviors, which do not at all agree with benefiting native species. To also say that Alum Creek is crystal clear, and so are Buckeye Lake before the algae bloom simply doesn't make sense. Imagining these lakes without carp means that the main fish species in the lakes are gone. If the reduction of a destructive fish that is clearly the most abundant species is not beneficial, I don't know what to think.

Heres another excerpt from Northern State University in south dakota.
http://www.northern.edu/natsource/FISH/Common1.htm

Significance

Carp are destructive, non-native fish. Carp are omnivorous (eating both plants and animals), their bottom feeding habits causing great *destruction* of aquatic resources. *They compete heavily with diving ducks, such as canvasbacks, for submerged plants*. Carp of all sizes compete with native fauna for aquatic food, and *destroy the nests and eat the eggs of other spawning fish*. They stir up silt and degrade the water quality resulting in loss of other more desirable fish and animals.

Juvenile carp do provide forage for game fish, but *quickly grow too large for* this purpose. Although carp provide good action when caught on rod and reel, they are not classified as a sport fish and are difficult to catch much of the year. Their bony structure and often muddy tasting flesh reduce their desirability as a food fish.

Conservation

The presence of carp in nearly all of our rivers, streams, and reservoirs is a constant reminder that our environment is a complex relationship among all habitats and organisms. *The introduction of any non-native organism may have tremendous impacts on these habitats*. It is seldom possible to eradicate an organism once it gets established. We must support our management agencies in maintaining strict and well enforced regulations regarding the introduction of exotic organisms to any of our habitats. Only after exhaustive research and evaluation should these introductions be allowed. *Carp have compromised the conservation of most of our clear water aquatic plants and animals, with little benefit in return*. 

I have bolded some good points made by Cleghorn Springs Fish Hatchery Staff, Game, Fish and Parks Office.


I just cannot picture carp benefiting Ohios aquatic habitats. Please prove me wrong so i can learn to love them.

http://www.pymatuning.com/duck-carp.jpg is a nice picture of our friendly, beneficial carp.


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## Big Daddy (Apr 6, 2004)

Cool pic of Pymatuning carp. There sure are a lot of them up there. Quite a spectacle to see in-person.

There is no right or wrong here. Everyone could quote sorces to support their points of view, no matter what side of the issue you're on. 

Carp were an introduced species. So what?

I also thing juvie carp are, indeed, bait for other predatory species.

I also thing fishing for carp is fun, and isn't that what it's all about? 

Disagreeing is OK, but you guys aren't going to change each other's minds. Just accept the fact that people fish for carp, and that's cool. If you don't like them, stick to other species and have a happy.

Carl


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## Miso_Ohio (Apr 6, 2004)

As far as carp destroying nest and eating eggs of other spawning fish, again that is true of just about very fish. One of a fishermans favorite baits for trout like species is fish eggs. Also have you ever watched pan fish and bass around a spawning bed you will notice the aggressive feeding pattern in them as well. Fish eggs are a good source of nutrition to all species; you cannot blame fish for getting as much as they can when they can get them.

As for the lakes being clear not making sense, what is there not to make sense about it, Hoover also is a very clear lake (when and if the rains ever stop) with a huge population of Carp in it. In the link I gave it gave a good example of why this perception is in place, it is normally due to mankind messing with the waterways. There are examples of aquatic life being destroyed by carp, but that can normally be attributed to somebody stocking too many grass carp, are getting non-sterile grass carp in a pond.

As for Pymantuning, that is a great picture, have you ever been to this lake before? Yes there are a lot of carp here, especially in the spillway, why you may ask. It is a major tourist trap in that area, they sell bread and have outlawed fishing in the spillway so people can throw hundreds of pounds of bread a day to the carp. They call it Pymantuning "Where The Ducks Walk On Fishes back" or something like it. They want the fish in there, it helps the economy, and it has been attracting campers and tourist for years. I suggest you visit, it is pretty interesting to see, and if you have any kids they will love it. Also while you are there, I suggest you check out the main lake, plenty of vegetation and the water isn't what I consider murky at all. It is an outstanding fishery for musky, walleye, perch and bass. Only complaint I have about the lake is it takes too dang long to get around on it with a 9.9 

You will see a lot of web sites, some official about the destructive ways of the carp, and they all have a little truth to them. Carp are not entirely beneficial to the environment (no introduced species is) but they are not as bad as everybody say they are. We have been noticing a trend as of lately; with state wildlife agencies starting to take more drastic steps to improve the populations of more popular sport fish. In a lot of cases the fruits of their labor is starting to pay off, and once proud and vital fisheries are coming back. 

As far as them not being a good food source, they where introduced to our waterways to be a food source. The problem comes from the fact that in a lot of our more polluted waterways, there is a higher concentration of carp because they are one of the few fish that can survive there. No fish from water like that is going to taste good, but a carp from clean water taste just fine. Ask the netters up in lake Erie where they sell those fish; you will be surprised out how much of it is being sold for human consumption. You have probably eaten carp in the past and didn't even know it. 

I am not saying the queen of the waterways is not harmful too other species and too certain bodies of water, because it is. What I am saying is it just isn't near as bad as people make it out too be. That stereotype is slowly starting to fade, and after time I think you will see the majority attitude towards this fish change, but that takes time. Now keep in mind while I do like to fish for carp, I also fish for many other species as well. If I thought this fish was harming the crappie, walleye, catfish and perch population I wouldn't have the same feelings towards the carp.


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## Miso_Ohio (Apr 6, 2004)

On a final note, Big Daddy is right, this is my final statement on this matter in this thread. I am not going to change your preception on the fish with words Mushijobah. I suggest you do a lot of first hand research on the matter when you go fishing. Just because something was written and put on the internet in an official looking way doesn't make it 100% fact. 

Also if you are ever interested into going after larger fish, make a trip over to the carp section of this boards, and ask. We are a friendly lot that would be glad to take you out fishing for that 20+ fish if you want. There has already been a lot taken in Ohio already this year. Here is a fine example of an Alum Creek fish taken last month by the notorious Crappielooker, that was well over 20 getting close to 30. By the way if you can find a lake infested with zebras you have a found a great carp food source and in turn large fish.


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## tpet96 (Apr 6, 2004)

Not sure which is bigger........ak or the fish 

I'll keep my .02 cents to myself.......it's the proper thing for me to do at this juncture


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## tpet96 (Apr 6, 2004)

ALthough, I do have to add this history.......written by CAG Member Al Kowaleski .....historian and published writer. There are also documents to back up ALL of the facts given in this article. Good read.......and shows you that the fish are just as "native" to the US as any other breed that was originally "non-native" to an area (IE: Steelhead, Hybrid Stipers, Saugeye, Sauger, etc.)


Perhaps you have heard that carp, which is an exotic species not native to North America, have by accident invaded our game fish waters. You may have heard that the carp of today are descended from fish that 'escaped' from private stocks or were illegally introduced by unauthorized persons. How is it then that carp are found in almost every state and in waters hundreds of miles apart from each other. The reason is because the U.S. Fish Commission and almost every one of the state governments in our land undertook one of the greatest far reaching campaigns to establish the carp everywhere in our country. Let me explain. 

Prior to 1900, native North American fish were viewed as vital natural resources. Most of the fish we regard today as sport fish were harvested commercially by the millions of pounds. They were shipped by rail to markets where they were an important food source for a growing population. This was before the advent of refrigeration and communities relied on 'ice house' preservation. Harvested were the basses, sunfish, crappies, pike, walleye, perch, lake trout, and sturgeon. Also coarse fish such as freshwater drum, buffalo fish, catfish, suckers, bullheads and others. 


The results of large harvests were declining stocks of lake and river fishes at a time when the population was expanding. To answer these concerns the U.S. Congress authorized President Ulysses S. Grant to appoint the US Fish Commission in 1871 to oversee the nation's fisheries interests. Among the first tasks was to consider what species to introduce to bolster the nations supply of food fishes. By 1874 the commission after long study issued a report entitled "Fishes Especially worthy of Cultivation" It went on to say that no other species except the carp, promises so great a return in limited waters. Cited were advantages over such fish as black bass, trout, grayling and others " because it is a vegetable feeder, and although not disdaining animal matters can live on vegetation alone and can attain large weight kept in small ponds and tanks". 


In 1876 the commission enumerated other good qualities such as high fecundity (a count of ripe eggs in the female fish), adaptability to artificial propagation, hardiness of growth, adaptability to environmental conditions unfavorable to equally palatable species, rapid growth, harmlessness in relation to fish of other species, ability to populate waters to it's greatest extent, and fine table qualities. By 1877 citing the above reasons and adding 'there is no reason why time should be lost with less proved fishes' the commission convinced of the value of carp imported 345 fishes of scaled, mirror and leather carp from German aquaculturists. On May 26th they were placed in the Druid Hill Park ponds in Baltimore Maryland. The ponds proved inadequate and some were transferred to the Babcock lakes on the monument lot in Washington, D.C. 


So did they somehow escape from these confines to populate nearly everywhere? No. Now the state governments get involved. Records indicate in 1879, about 6.203 fingerlings were produced in the Babcock Lakes. These were shipped to 273 applicants in 24 states. About 6000 fingerlings were produced in the Druid Hill ponds that year and were stocked primarily in Maryland. One year later, 31,332 carp were shipped to 1,374 applicants. In 1882 carp production increased to 143,696 fish, distributed in small lots to 7,000 applicants. In 1883 about 260,000 carp were sent to 9,872 applicants in 298 of 301 congressional districts and into 1,478 counties. During the years 1879-1896 the US Fish Commission distributed 2.4 million carp, some of which were sent to Canada, Costa Rica, Ecuador and Mexico. By 1897 the Commission discontinued the stocking because carp had been distributed nearly everywhere and many states assumed the task of propagation and stocking of carp. 


Within several years many states were involved in the propagation and stocking of millions of carp. The Ohio State Fish Commission stocked tributaries of Lake Erie. Every major river in Illinois was stocked. Fish rescue missions from 1890-1920 conducted by various states and the US fish Commission stocked hundreds of lakes and rivers, particularly into the Midwestern region of the US. In a few short years the effort to introduce the resource of carp had been successful. Newspapers and magazines lauded the importance to the food industry and the bright future of all citizens eating carp. 


Commercial production started in the 1900's. During the decade after World War II, annual catches reached 36 million pounds. Many prominent restaurants and hotels served carp on the menu. Restaurants of the Waldorf and Astoria listed "Carp in Rhine Wine Sauce" 


Following World War II the saltwater commercial fishing industry captured a major portion of the fishing market by consolidating and modernizing operations This resulted in tremendous productions of ocean fish and improvements in processing, packaging ,shipping and storage and a reduction in operating costs. At a time when the oceans were perceived as pure and our rivers were becoming polluted, contributed among other factors to the decline of carp as a food fish. 


History demonstrates that the federal and state governments of the US undertook a massive effort to install the carp in all of our waters from coast to coast in an effort that no other country has ever embarked upon. History also indicates that American anglers in great numbers lead the world today in the history of carp angling since the earliest turn of the century. Generations of anglers have enjoyed the carp as a sport or food fish. History also indicates that the carp found in our many waters did not escaped the ponds of long ago carp farmers, as the myth is told, but were placed carefully for our angling benefit by thoughtful government agencies.


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## tpet96 (Apr 6, 2004)

Just thought I would mention:

Do you know why you use peanut butter on a rye krisp dough ball?


Because the carp like it


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## cornmuse (Apr 14, 2004)

Carpn said:


> I don't really think it is post spawn trauma..Could be though...I know i saw over 100 in various stages of death from fresh to several days old...I fish this area often and have never seen more than a few dead fish there at a time.Also saw sevarl fish floating on their sides barely alive and also in the shallows laying there..When they would spook they would not dart off...just very slowly swim like it was the very last thing they wanted to do...
> I'm concerned it is one of the carp specific killers that have hit recently in other areas...


I caught a carp at Winton Woods that exhibited some of these 'sores' discussed in this thread. I then check with a member of The Ohio Smallmouth Alliance who is a fisheries biologist at OSU. I asked him if it could be the columnaria which is also occuring in South Carolina. Here is his response;

"This is a bacteria (_Chondrococcus_columnaris_) that is pretty common 
to culture systems in N. America. It is the same thing to plague 
aquaria as "fin rot." High temperatures and stress can make fish 
really susceptible.

I don't know much of the current story, but what I've heard is that 
only carp populations have been affected after the first high 
temperatures in late spring. This would be pretty unusual for 
columnaria; it's pretty indiscriminate. Given what I've heard, I 
would be much more likely to suspect the virus spring viremia 
(_Rhabdovirus_carpio_). This is a bane of koi culture. The symptoms 
match, and spring viremia is extremely selective (affecting pretty 
much nothing but the large minnows commonly known as carps). It has 
even been used as an experimental carp control agent in Australia.

There was a massive carp kill on Erie in 2000: corpses, stink, and 
maggots littering the whole of the western shoreline. I was deep 
into Metzger Marsh work at that time, and this made for pretty 
horrific work conditions. It also elevated our carp catches 
significantly over that of other years (2- to 3-fold) because carp 
were lethargic in their death throes and less able to avoid our 
sampling gears. I did a little research into this at that time and 
spoke with the staff of several agencies (EPA, Div. of WL, USFWS, OSU 
Extension, etc.) about it. Nobody was willing to commit themselves 
to a definite diagnosis, but the general consensus of opinion 
(including mine) was that this was caused by spring viremia."

So what is everyone seeing? Is there a carp kill-off occuring on the GM or its tribs?

Joe C.


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## Bass_Hawg (Apr 12, 2004)

Some People dont like Carp.

Some People dont like bass.

 I hate carp 

 I hate bass

Carp are mean bad orangish looking, sucker mouth haven, corn eating, mustache wearing, mean old bottom dwelling, mud slinging fish.

Oh Yea? ?
Well bass are green old big mouth haven, fake lure eating, bubbled eyed haven lateral line using, fat lazy attitude haven fish.

 

See everything that just got solved with the above simulated argument.


Just my 2 cents.


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## atrkyhntr (May 31, 2004)

hahahaa good one Bass_Hawg
I wish everyone hated carp and bass  
then I could have them to myself


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## tpet96 (Apr 6, 2004)

Bass_Hawg......... I like your sense of humor


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