# whats up with Cleveland cops?



## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

137 bullets fired? 50 police vehicles? friendly fire? 2 unarmed suspects dead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Plo15wdOLfw

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/11/cleveland_east_cleveland_offic.html


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

I have always found the best thing to do when being chased by the cops is to pull over.


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## dwmikemx (Mar 22, 2008)

Good lord 137 rounds? Talk about a bunch of trigger happy cops. I guess that's where the term "over kill" comes from.


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## Wannabitawerm (Apr 13, 2004)

bobk said:


> I have always found the best thing to do when being chased by the cops is to pull over.


That is a novel idea. Ill bet they never thought about that. I think maybe it was overkill but why did they run? If they didn't run, or break the law, they would still be alive. 


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## Dave_E (Apr 6, 2004)

Until all facts are disclosed after the investigation, I give the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement, rather than the folks running from them.

That being said, this case sure does seem crazy excessive considering the details that have been reported so far.


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

We were trolling off 72nd and saw this chase happening, someone on the marine band was giving updates as they listened in on the police scanner app (another app for ya boatnut) on their smart phone. All you saw was red rollers, then they turned around somewhere then we saw blue rollers. It was pretty crazy watching all the cop cars go back and forth there were tons of them in pursuit.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

This doesn't look good for the cops. 13 are on administrative leave. 137 rounds, 13 cops, that more than 10 rounds per cop. The police union is saying that the suspects rammed a police vehicle yet the pictures of the suspects vehicle did not show evidence. I believe the mayor issued an independent investigation. We will have to wait and see. It sure looks bad for the cops.


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## Net (Apr 10, 2004)

> it started Thursday night when two men shot at a police officer outside the Justice Center


Say what you will but I stopped reading the article after seeing this.


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## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

Net said:


> Say what you will but I stopped reading the article after seeing this.


It was a man and woman in the car they chased. be interesting to see if either had a record..i'm assuming they must of been "wanted"? otherwise, why were they fleeing? I still think it's excessive force to the the extreme.


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## Bigjoe (Aug 13, 2011)

A friend of mines brother was a cop in Cleveland. I say 'was' because he was shot and killed making a traffic stop years ago. I say if there is any doubt, shoot and let God sort it out. Especially with hearing a shot and going after a 'runner'.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/14844-patrol-officer-hilary-s-cudnik


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

Wait till the investigation is complete. 

In the mean time this may explain the high round count, it's called sympathetic fire. This isn't something new but it doesn't get a lot of attention. This is similar to the NYC shooting a few years ago with a kid on his stoop.

http://www.chemicalbiological.net/sympatheticfire.html


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

They're lucky this didn't happen in a bigger city (LA) or twenty/thirty years ago when racial tensions were higher in northeast Ohio. An event like this could have kicked off a riot. If they randomly shot at an officer (I bet the shoreway medians are being combed for the original weapon) they deserve all but the eventual finish. There had to be a better way to complete the chase without dozens of rounds. Couldn't they have waited it out and called SWAT to approach the vehicle in full armour? They shot into the car without knowing if the passenger was a willing participant or even a victim of foul play herself.

A standoff happened in Brunswick (Cleveland south suburb) this weekend that took 30 hours to finally finish that situation with a similar ending and far less bullets. The law ensured the the neighbors were removed from the area to save them from stay bullets from the officers and/or perpetrator. The Cleveland officers shot nearly a gross of rounds with houses well within shooting distance. I think the old Italian mob would have stopped shooting sooner.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

boatnut said:


> It was a man and woman in the car they chased. be interesting to see if either had a record..i'm assuming they must of been "wanted"? otherwise, why were they fleeing? I still think it's excessive force to the the extreme.


Both had records. They are going to check their hands for gun powder residue as no weapons were found in the car nor spent bullet casings.

I'd would not be surprised if they were not the ones involved in the Justice Center shots fired


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## ErieRider (Mar 23, 2010)

Snakecharmer said:


> Both had records. They are going to check their hands for gun powder residue as no weapons were found in the car nor spent bullet casings.
> 
> I'd would not be surprised if they were not the ones involved in the Justice Center shots fired


The GSR test may reveal something, you are correct on that. No casings found. Maybe he/she had a revolver??? Just saying. 
As far as recovering a round, that thing could be in the river for all we know.
As several people said, let's not rush to judgement. CPD has independent investigators on this case. Matter of fact EC police are investigating along with Ohio BCI, who are the utmost neutral investigating agency in the state.
Once they wrap their investigation up, I will accept the BCI ruling as being fair and impartial. What they determine is what I will accept as the decision.
Til then there is no need to speculate right and wrong and armchair quarter back these guys.


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## Jigging Jim (Apr 3, 2010)

Just a bunch of Thugs with Guns and Badges. I am more afraid of Ohio's Police than I am of the Street Criminals.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

like so many other posts, here we have a lot of comments (biased?) and speculation regarding what actually happened without anyone beiong there and basing their opinions and comments on what they have heard or read from the news media. I'm sure this will be the hottest topic on the news until such time that something "hotter" is available to replace it. As far as comparing the standoff in Brunswick, a static and confined situation, with a moving confrontation that endangers innocent bystanders, is truly rediculous.
Why not simply wait and see what transpires regarding further investigation?


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

Jigging Jim said:


> Just a bunch of Thugs with Guns and Badges. I am more afraid of Ohio's Police than I am of the Street Criminals.


Bet you would be changing your tune if you need em. Pretty ignorant statement don't you think.

Don't know what the outcome of the gun fire situation will be but one thing is certain and I've watched Cops enough to know...you don't pull over your in trouble one way or another. Rollers go on, you pull over!!


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## hearttxp (Dec 21, 2004)

I also think they tried to use the car to run over some of the police officers ! All the life long criminal Had To do was STOP At anytime and get out of the car! But they decided to flee and not stop !


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## Dave_E (Apr 6, 2004)

Jigging Jim said:


> Just a bunch of Thugs with Guns and Badges. I am more afraid of Ohio's Police than I am of the Street Criminals.


C'mon man, really?? You can't really think that. Do you have a similar outlook on our armed forces?

I'm not related to, nor do I personally know any, law enforcement officers but that job is admirable.

If your family was in danger I think you'd call the law before calling a thug.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

boatnut said:


> 137 bullets fired? 50 police vehicles? friendly fire? 2 unarmed suspects dead!
> 
> 13 cops with 11 rounds each = 143 rounds total. 137 bullets hit the vehicle for a staggering 96%.
> Never shoot at, and then attempt to run down with your car, anyone that is hitting their target at a 96% clip, very poor gamble.
> Nobody that has done nothing wrong tries to kill and then runs from Cops.


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## Agitation Free (Jul 11, 2010)

Jigging Jim said:


> Just a bunch of Thugs with Guns and Badges. I am more afraid of Ohio's Police than I am of the Street Criminals.


I don't think cops are thugs with guns. They are put into some very stressful situations and put their life on the line. They deserve respect. Do so! Right now the media is making it look bad for the cops. Mayor Jackson said that the investigation will be independent and will take time. I'm sure the investigation will be fair. If the officers are guilty of violating protocol, there will be consequences. There is a lot to this story we don't know.


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## OnTheFly (Jul 30, 2010)

Pretty crazy would have been a hell of a sight to see. Not saying the cops did anything wrong in this situation, especially if an officer or in that case anyone else was shot or attempted to be killed with vehicle, but does seem a little excessive with the numbers- I mean I could get more than 2 suspects with 137 bullets . Not that I 100% agree with Jigging Jim, but there are some pretty sketchy cops out there. Never found myself on the wrong end of the law but have seen some abuse of power first hand. That said there are some absolutely great helpful cops out there. I just don't trust them anymore than than I do the government.


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

I am retired from the Columbus Police force for the past 19 years. The people I worked with are some of the most dedicated hard working people I have ever been around. I am still good friends with many of them. Many have died an early death either on the job or due to the stress. I do not know what happened in Cleveland and neither does anyone elso not there, I will wait for the investigation to be completed before making any judgement. I believe Columbus has one of the best SWAT teams in the country but while working crime scene investigation I worked a scene where SWAT fired almost 60 shots at two people who had just robbed a bar. There was only one hit on a suspect and that was in the arm. The other suspect triped on his way out of the bar fell on his sawed off shotgun and blew his chest apart. Wait to find out what happened, please.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

leupy said:


> I am retired from the Columbus Police force for the past 19 years. The people I worked with are some of the most dedicated hard working people I have ever been around. I am still good friends with many of them. Many have died an early death either on the job or due to the stress. I do not know what happened in Cleveland and neither does anyone elso not there, I will wait for the investigation to be completed before making any judgement. I believe Columbus has one of the best SWAT teams in the country but while working crime scene investigation I worked a scene where SWAT fired almost 60 shots at two people who had just robbed a bar. There was only one hit on a suspect and that was in the arm. The other suspect triped on his way out of the bar fell on his sawed off shotgun and blew his chest apart. Wait to find out what happened, please.


Columbus Cops are some of the best cops out there, not sure I would throw Cleveland/Cincinnati/State Highway cops in the same boat though...


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## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

Some random thoughts after reading posts to date. 

If they didn't run, or break the law, they would still be alive.  What law did they break other then running? Not saying I condone it but do they deserve to die in a hail of 137 bullets? Im amazed that no cops were killed by friendly fire Arent there some kind of rules in place for hot pursuit? Sounds like a wild west or old gangster situation with cops pointing guns out windows while in pursuit and firing away.

 sympathetic fire I might be able to understand that if theyd just gunned down a couple of cops.but the cops arent even sure if they heard a gunshot or a backfire.

Bet you would be changing your tune if you need em If I am in a situation to need cops, I.E. home invasion or car invasion, I will call 911 IF I have time but otherwise or in the meanwhile, my guns come out. I dont have time to wait for them. Lets face it, cops dont necessarily prevent crime, they just arrest or ticket those that do crimes.

Nobody that has done nothing wrong tries to kill and then runs from Cops I must of overlooked that the perps were trying to kill a cop? 

I will be very interested in how the investigation plays out. However, I just cant help but thinking this was a gross over reaction by the Cleveland P.D.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Pardon my being "Mr Obvious' here, but the comment about PROMPTLY OBEYING a Law Officer (especially with a DRAWN weapon) sounds reasonable to ME, personally. If you (foolishly) choose NOT TO atleast try not to apparently DELIBERATELY harm or kill any officers with your vehicle while attempting to flee. Lastly, once you`ve got 30+ police/ sheriff/ highway patrol cars in hot pursuit you chances of escape go down to like less than .000 less than zilch; throw in a chopper overhead especially with FLIR (forward looking infrared) and you chances are equal to a soggy ice cube going into a blast furnace...at THAT point unless you`re just REALLY a BAD(deleted) "Rambo" type with SEAL Team 6 in the trunk or just absolutely "right" with God would personally "SUGGEST" you get face down on the ground and SURRENDER post haste. Or ELSE...even if you`re absolutely in the right (doubtful) if you are DEAD it don`t do you much GOOD, does it ?


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## dock dabber (Mar 20, 2005)

Sounds to me like the police need to spend more time on the Range, Other than that they did just fine. Saved the taxpayers money.


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

My thoughts and prayers go out to all who lost loved ones in this situation... I have lost many friends over the years. Some were shot by criminals, some by officers, and some by crooked officers. These lives can never be replaced. Whether they were engaged in criminal activity or innocent victims, it was never worth their life.

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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

Boat nut go back and read the news article from the first post, it says they fired at a police officer. Most will never know how much your heart rushes during a chase where you believe the person you are chasing is armed, either in a car or in an alley, you want to do your job but you also want to stay alive and see your wife and kids after your shift. I was also at a scene where the suspect that had shot a police officer was trapped in an apartment the police were totally around the apartment but the suspect refused to give up. The police fired tear gas through the window of the apartment but they used the wrong projectile, it should have been exploding but they fired a burning projectile. Now the fun begins, the apartment caught fire. Guess what the police yell, yes, FIRE, guess what the rest of the police did, YES, they emptied their guns into the the apartment walls and windows. There was never a true count of all the bullets fired and the suspect was not injured. My best guess would be a couple thousand rounds fired by officers from several jurisdictions. I was not at this scene but had access to all the evidence.


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## OSUdaddy (Oct 18, 2010)

jlami said:


> My thoughts and prayers go out to all who lost loved ones in this situation... I have lost many friends over the years. Some were shot by criminals, some by officers, and some by crooked officers. These lives can never be replaced. Whether they were engaged in criminal activity or innocent victims, it was never worth their life.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


No sympathy from me as you obviously hang out with the wrong crowd.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

Wannabitawerm said:


> That is a novel idea. Ill bet they never thought about that. I think maybe it was overkill but why did they run? If they didn't run, or break the law, they would still be alive.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire





Bigjoe said:


> A friend of mines brother was a cop in Cleveland. I say 'was' because he was shot and killed making a traffic stop years ago. I say if there is any doubt, shoot and let God sort it out. Especially with hearing a shot and going after a 'runner'.
> 
> http://www.odmp.org/officer/14844-patrol-officer-hilary-s-cudnik


Yep! Cops want to go home to their families at the end of the day, too! As for what came out on the radio, both perps had rap sheets as long as your arms! Oh, but you never know, may be the car backfired! Yeah! That's it, that's it! Or, or maybe somebody farted, and the cops got all in a tizzy, you know how they are! All you gotta do is fart and they'll just gun you down in the street, man! 

My original post here was pulled because I called someone an idiot. I still believe that they're an idiot, but I just won't say who it is. It sometimes amazes me how many bad ass "wannabees" there are here.


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## MuskieJim (Apr 11, 2007)

boatnut said:


> Some random thoughts after reading posts to date.
> 
> &#8220;If they didn't run, or break the law, they would still be alive. &#8220; What law did they break other then running? Not saying I condone it but do they deserve to die in a hail of 137 bullets? I&#8217;m amazed that no cops were killed by &#8220;friendly fire&#8221; Aren&#8217;t there some kind of rules in place for &#8220;hot pursuit&#8221;? Sounds like a wild west or old gangster situation with cops pointing guns out windows while in pursuit and firing away.
> 
> ...



Great points here. It is a scary thought that you may be gunned down for fleeing police. I am no life long criminal, but I have ran from a State Patrol officer on a snowmobile and was able to get away. If he were to catch me and draw his weapon, is it reasonable to die for fleeing an officer? I am no want-to-be rebel tough guy and was not drunk or in fear of a warrant, I simply did not want a ticket and to have my sled towed. 

I also have friends who are police officers. I respect the job and there are many dedicated and upstanding officers. That being said, there are the 5% who may have the "little man syndrome" and a little bit of authority goes straight to their head. I know several of this caliber and they are a short bit away from Daniel Harless, everyone's favorite threat-shouting, insano Canton police officer. 

It "says" they fired at a police officer, but were there ANY witnesses to this gunshot? Shell casing? Gun? These things need to be established before taking EITHER side in an argument like this. The "Always side with the police" is about as ignorant as you can be. They are people too, just like you and me, and can make mistakes, use poor judgement, and take lives. 

If cops kicked in your door in the middle of the night and shot your dog, screaming and throwing your family on the ground for a SWAT raid, how would you feel? All because someone got the WRONG address?? This has happened.


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

OSUdaddy said:


> No sympathy from me as you obviously hang out with the wrong crowd.


I grew up in North St. Louis, there is no right or wrong crowd... I thank god everyday that I no longer have to be exposed to that lifestyle... As far as sympathy, I don't expect any from anyone. It its what it is, people are faced with decisions on a daily basis. Sometimes they maker the wrong decision, does not mean their life can be replaced.

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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

Just watched the news they played some of the audio. Some pretty interesting. Ne cop yelled shots fired 3x, anther clip says she has black gloves on, another said a gun was pointing out the back window. Story goes on.....


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## Jigging Jim (Apr 3, 2010)

No, I wouldn't change my "Tune" if I needed them. I don't trust these Ohio Cops. Had a couple of the local ones harrass me from the safety of their Patrol Cars. They never said a word. It was their actions that showed me their lack of Professionalism... In the past, I was a Firefighter-EMT in New York State - so I was inter-acting with Police Officers quite often during the course of my career. So far, since living in Ohio, I am not impressed. The Bad Cops make the Good Cops look bad. So far, I have seen the Bad. Maybe in the future I will change my mind - but until then....


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

boatnut said:


> Some random thoughts after reading posts to date.
> 
>  sympathetic fire I might be able to understand that if theyd just gunned down a couple of cops.but the cops arent even sure if they heard a gunshot or a backfire.


In this situation, the sympathetic fire would comes from one of the LEO's shooting after perceiving a threat that warranted deadly force not necessarily the suspect shooting at them. If the first shot came from the officer that was nearly run over the others around may have reflexively shot also. 

Unfortunately, I do know one of the officers involved after seeing the list on the news yesterday. I can tell you they are family oriented and has quite a bit of experience. No normal person takes pleasure in having to kill someone, there was a reason the PD shot, the investigation will bring it to light. BCI, FBI and 3 other police agencies are all investigating, trust the system for now.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

Jigging Jim said:


> So far, since living in Ohio, I am not impressed. The Bad Cops make the Good Cops look bad. So far, I have seen the Bad. Maybe in the future I will change my mind - but until then....


So if it' just so bad in Ohio, why not move to...... ?


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

crappiedude said:


> So if it' just so bad in Ohio, why not move to...... ?


Crappie, you always have something of ignorance to say... Why?

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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

jlami said:


> Crappie, you always have something of ignorance to say... Why?
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


why you so mad??????
I don't even know you


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## jonnythfisherteen2 (Mar 5, 2011)

you know, that does sound like a better idea. if you hate the cops here so much, then why not move to another state? if the doesnt do any better, then move to a country that has no police. it should be better there......right?
and good job to those morons who killed 2 people who may have not even had a gun in the first place. im sure they will earn a medal for their actions.
looks like cleaveland is sinking fast to me.


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

crappiedude said:


> why you so mad??????
> I don't even know you


Nor I you, but every time I see you post it is always something of conflict... To each their own I guess, just wondering why you feel it your duty? I guess that is really non of my business either, just made my antenna twitch. Good day to you.

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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

jlami said:


> Nor I you, but every time I see you post it is always something of conflict... To each their own I guess, just wondering why you feel it your duty? I guess that is really non of my business either, just made my antenna twitch. Good day to you.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


No offense intended to you or anyone. Life's too short.
I have no conflict in the matter at all. I usually find most news info to not be entirely complete or accurate.

When you said Ohio was not so good. I was just wondering where may be better. Not trying to make you (or any one mad) but more just out of curiosity. All the states I've visited or lived in seem pretty much the same to me.


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## Thor (May 3, 2012)

Last time I checked, the police had a full Batman Belt full of toys they could have used on those suspects. Overwhelming force, surrounding the suspects in the vehicle... hmm... Taser, Pepper Spray, Tear gas, rubber bullets, riot shields, clubs, I'm sure ANYTHING could have been used on unarmed suspects other than surrounding them and shooting them like fish in a barrel. I remember plenty of this from my time at OSU during the riots of 2002. They shot so carelessly, they even shot their own police cars. Were lucky that no one else got swiss-cheessed by "ohio's finest". I've worked as a bouncer at a few bars, outnumbered 100 - 1 and the weapon we used was our brain.


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## Thor (May 3, 2012)

anyone have statistics on collateral damage costs or number of civillians injured/killed during pursuits every year ? my brother's best friend from high school was nearly paralyzed while he was in his car - a cop ran a red light while in pursuit of another vehicle and smashed into his car. Horrible accident, poor kid didn't even see it coming (straight A student, clean record too).

Maybe we should just "let the little fish go"? Its easy for police to get a license plate number, run it, and be waiting at the persons driveway, instead of chasing them all over the country playing bumper cars/shoot-em-up with the public. Hell, send Dog the Bounty Hunter....


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

Thor said:


> Hell, send Dog the Bounty Hunter....


Dog don't use guns!!!!


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## Bucket Mouth (Aug 13, 2007)

I'm not surprised by this. This type of policing is happening more and more.


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

crappiedude said:


> All the states I've visited or lived in seem pretty much the same to me.


I agree and disagree all in the same breathe. OH is very peaceful in comparison to many of the places I have been, however some of the DNR laws just plain suck. (i.e. no rifles for deer hunting and the 2 pole 3 hook maximum)

Wonder if that will derail the thread? lol


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## mbarrett1379 (Feb 23, 2012)

Well it's not like one cop shot 137 rounds there's a bunch of them... How about pull over... And what would you honestly do when you have a car flying at you and your packing heat?


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

jlami said:


> I agree and disagree all in the same breathe. OH is very peaceful in comparison to many of the places I have been, however some of the DNR laws just plain suck. (i.e. no rifles for deer hunting and the 2 pole 3 hook maximum)
> 
> Wonder if that will derail the thread? lol


Now there is something we agree on.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Thor said:


> anyone have statistics on collateral damage costs or number of civillians injured/killed during pursuits every year ? my brother's best friend from high school was nearly paralyzed while he was in his car - a cop ran a red light while in pursuit of another vehicle and smashed into his car. Horrible accident, poor kid didn't even see it coming (straight A student, clean record too).
> 
> Maybe we should just "let the little fish go"? Its easy for police to get a license plate number, run it, and be waiting at the persons driveway, instead of chasing them all over the country playing bumper cars/shoot-em-up with the public. Hell, send Dog the Bounty Hunter....


You don't think criminals would get bolder if that was your standard policy? Criminals would just flee all of the time. Everyone would floor it and hope for the best. You might even end up with more accidents from criminals fleeing who wouldn't have tried it before; it would be in every drunk's best interest to make a run for it, and it would make it a lot tougher to convict people of anything: "Yes, officer, that's my car, but I wasn't driving it last night...."


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

streamstalker said:


> You don't think criminals would get bolder if that was your standard policy? Criminals would just flee all of the time. Everyone would floor it and hope for the best. You might even end up with more accidents from criminals fleeing who wouldn't have tried it before; it would be in every drunk's best interest to make a run for it, and it would make it a lot tougher to convict people of anything: "Yes, officer, that's my car, but I wasn't driving it last night...."


Columbus Police along with numerous other local municipalities have a "No Felony Pursuit" policy. From what I can remember if you're not suspected of a felony and you run they don't follow.


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## pikekilla (Aug 28, 2012)

Having once been a police officer for 12 years and being involved in a deadly force incident, and having been pre-judged by public speculation and 20-20 hindsight, un-factual media accounts and stupid ass rumors before the true facts came out, I will only say this: Let the facts and truth be investigated and told. In the ugly bright light of uneducated pubic scrutiny, and in a sterile vacuum of the luxury of unlimited time and analysis, I shall not judge something that I do not know all the facts or I did not see with my own two eyes.. Neither should anyone else.


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## USMC_Galloway (May 13, 2011)

Thor said:


> Last time I checked, the police had a full Batman Belt full of toys they could have used on those suspects. Overwhelming force, surrounding the suspects in the vehicle... hmm... Taser, Pepper Spray, Tear gas, rubber bullets, riot shields, clubs, I'm sure ANYTHING could have been used on unarmed suspects other than surrounding them and shooting them like fish in a barrel.QUOTE]
> 
> Last time I checked those dont do a whole lot to a car... This isnt the Marvel or DC world, come back to real life.
> 
> ...


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## billk (Feb 2, 2008)

Back to the original question-

Why did they fire 137 bullets?

Answer - because they ran out of ammo.


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## nooffseason (Nov 15, 2008)

acklac7 said:


> Columbus Police along with numerous other local municipalities have a "No Felony Pursuit" policy. From what I can remember if you're not suspected of a felony and you run they don't follow.


Wait wait....is this real? Doesn't sound possibly correct.


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

My real burning question is where was Cleveland's helicopter? They don't use it except for sporting events mainly. If the helicopter was up on a regular night patrol this may not have escalated to this extent. 

An idea I had tonight on the topic; if the city doesn't have the resources to maintain the helicopter, the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's office could take it on and provide service county wide. Especially now that the Sheriff has put deputies back on the road they could run it. There are other municipalities around the country that use aviation in this respect. There's no jurisdictional limit since the CCSO spans the entire county, multiple cities could benefit from the service and be charged accordingly. Just a thought.


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## sbreech (Jun 6, 2010)

Sharp Charge said:


> My real burning question is where was Cleveland's helicopter? They don't use it except for sporting events mainly. If the helicopter was up on a regular night patrol this may not have escalated to this extent.
> 
> An idea I had tonight on the topic; if the city doesn't have the resources to maintain the helicopter, the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's office could take it on and provide service county wide. Especially now that the Sheriff has put deputies back on the road they could run it. There are other municipalities around the country that use aviation in this respect. There's no jurisdictional limit since the CCSO spans the entire county, multiple cities could benefit from the service and be charged accordingly. Just a thought.


I think I'd rather have some cops shoot some criminals rather then be taxed to pay for a helicopter flying all the time. Those things aren't cheap to operate - maintenance, fuel, insurance, licensure, full-time pilot salary & benefits...


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## jjshbetz11 (Oct 25, 2010)

It will be interesting to see results of the testing for powder on the suspects hands. 


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

Ok, Cleveland police are not much different than any other large city police force. Columbus is the same way. I've asked cops why they don't wear cowboy hats and carry a gun on both hips like the wild west days, this way the criminals and everyone else know they're ready to shoot at any time! 

But... let's look at the situations in general. Each cop has a duty to protect others and a right to defend themselves. Hard to argue that.

Police are never welcomed until they are needed. Hard to argue that either.

So police have a duty and responsability to jump in the middle of societies worst moments and fulfill their duties and responsabilities.

Now, anyone that's been in the military or police know that you have to keep yourself safe atall times because things happen so fast that unprepared = hurt or dead. Police have protocalls that mandate they take precautions to keep themselves (and others) safe during the performance of their duties. This is why they pull their weapons during traffic stops, you just never know, righht?

In most cases police are justified when shooting a suspect because time and circumstances rarely provide the time to make the most informed decisions. This is how police officers end up shooting suspects because they get suprised or rushed by the person they are after.

In the cleveland situation I won't say that the amount of force used was reasonable overall, but definitly reasonable at the individual level. Mostly because in that situation if it were just one officer and maybe a partner they would both have to shoot because it's their responsability to end the threat and no one wants to just believe that the other guy will do it.

However, I am highly suspect of police involved shooting where there is a question about the need to shoot versus using less lethal force. Some cops are scared and will pull a gun to "protect" themselves when an Asp or chemical Munician would have ended the situaion just as effectively.

Just my 2c!

A

My wife says I have a fishing habbit....


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Mr. A said:


> Ok, Cleveland police are not much different than any other large city police force. Columbus is the same way. I've asked cops why they don't wear cowboy hats and carry a gun on both hips like the wild west days, this way the criminals and everyone else know they're ready to shoot at any time!
> 
> But... let's look at the situations in general. Each cop has a duty to protect others and a right to defend themselves. Hard to argue that.
> 
> ...


... well put


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

sbreech said:


> I think I'd rather have some cops shoot some criminals rather then be taxed to pay for a helicopter flying all the time. Those things aren't cheap to operate - maintenance, fuel, insurance, licensure, full-time pilot salary & benefits...


I'm familiar with the operating cost. But my point is they already have the aircraft, and the pilots are sworn CPD officers already. They don't contract out to a third party pilot with a PD observer. That's why I'm questioning it's lack of use. 

If after the investigation is complete, this is ruled a bad shoot, you don't think it's going to cost the city? The city settled a suite for $900k 2 years ago involving 2 of the officers listed in this situation. Helicopters increase officer safety, and if used in this event could have (not guaranteed, I understand) changed the outcome.


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## I_Shock_Em (Jul 20, 2008)

Sharp Charge said:


> My real burning question is where was Cleveland's helicopter? .


I saw that the helicopter was grounded because all four helicopter pilots were off duty.


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## ohiojmj (Apr 16, 2004)

Sometimes I think a fishing website should be just that. Talk about jumping to conclusions....


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

I_Shock_Em said:


> I saw that the helicopter was grounded because all four helicopter pilots were off duty.


I hadn't seen that, thank you. Bad planning but it's a possible answer.


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

You are damn right police are afraid, and they should be. When you think you are chasing an armed suspect on foot or in a car your life is at stake. Your family could loose their money to survive. Police have every right to protect themselves from any threat dealing with the facts they have at the time of the incident. If the call is put out that shots were fired at the police that is how they need to respond. In the military if you determine a threat you take them out without question, the police do not have that authority they are directed to use the lest amount of force needed. The army or marines would just blow the vehicle up and maybe part of the neighborhood. Why can't we just wait till the investigation is completed? Police do get scared and so do armed forces but they do their job despite being afraid, I am not going to judge them until all the facts are in and neither should anyone else. I have walked in those shoes many many times. I have been investigated by the FBI a few times charged in federal court once that went to trial and never did anything wrong. No convictions.


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## jlami (Jan 28, 2011)

$h¡+ happens... The suspects should have pulled over... The cops may have or may not have had the right to deadly force? We may never know the truth... I am sure regardless of right or wrong the cops have their story straight... Too many involved not to.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## leupy (Feb 12, 2007)

The more involved the more the stories conflict. If this many people start trying to adjust their stories they will be found out and the truth will come out which is what should happen from the beginning. We just need to wait and see without predicting the outcome. From my experience police can't get away with anything if there are more than one envolved, two at the most.


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## hang_loose (Apr 2, 2008)

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> you know, that does sound like a better idea. if you hate the cops here so much, then why not move to another state? if the doesnt do any better, then move to a country that has no police. it should be better there......right?
> and good job to those morons who killed 2 people who may have not even had a gun in the first place. im sure they will earn a medal for their actions.
> looks like cleaveland is sinking fast to me.


Right back at you jonny. Are you a judge and jury also? Lets just wait until all of the facts come out. I'm not taking sides but the media can mislead you also.

Sorry Leupy.....My turn buddy.


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## kasting king (Aug 17, 2006)

Anyone see the video of the passanger who was killed? Less than a week before she had been arrested and there is video of her in the cruiser talking about how she was going to kill the cops and how she would f them up. Real classy gal.


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## Thor (May 3, 2012)

Regardless, if these guys are "right" or wrong" in the eyes of the law, a few things still stand out, in the court of public opinion.

Police have Body Armor, several types of NON-Lethal Force, Riot Gear, Numbers, Chase Vehicles, Helicopters, and a computer that will google-map the fastest, most scenic route to the A-hole perpetrator's house... Deadly Force should be the LAST option. Why couldn't they have just teargassed the car after it was well-surrounded? 

Why didn't they shoot out the tires or use Stop Sticks ? Why didn't they wait for the perps to give up like they do in hostage situations ?

If you get shot at, shoot back! If someones gives you an order to shoot an unarmed person, you respond to that with your favorite action verb, and your favorite body part !


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## Sharp Charge (Jun 24, 2009)

Thor said:


> Regardless, if these guys are "right" or wrong" in the eyes of the law, a few things still stand out, in the court of public opinion.
> 
> Police have Body Armor, several types of NON-Lethal Force, Riot Gear, Numbers, Chase Vehicles, Helicopters, and a computer that will google-map the fastest, most scenic route to the A-hole perpetrator's house... Deadly Force should be the LAST option. Why couldn't they have just teargassed the car after it was well-surrounded?
> 
> ...



Shooting out tires is a very dangerous option that isn't used by most departments or the military any more. As for stop sticks, I don't know if this car hit them, but it did loose a tire or 2 on the freeway and continued to run.


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## fishingdude (Nov 24, 2010)

No gun powder residue anywhere to be found. Oooopsy!!!!!


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Actually, in the military, if you take fire, you generally take cover and call for BIGGER BADDER larger caliber response, ie , tanks, TOW missile, artillery, air strikes, ect, let the dust and rubble settle and THEN go see if anything`s left of them. Perhaps as well the police DO NOT have that option. Will testify that helicopters skillfully flown are INTIMIDATING in the extreme, much faster than almost any vehicle, and as far as escaping a FLIR equipted bird, you`re DONE, period. Still think if the LAW says "Put your hands UP" you`re still much more likely to SURVIVE by DOING it...


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

My wife and I both said thank god when we heard the thugs were killed, they need to kill more of these dirt balls instead of these costly trials and incarcerations.


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

Jigging Jim said:


> Just a bunch of Thugs with Guns and Badges. I am more afraid of Ohio's Police than I am of the Street Criminals.




Most people who think like this, typically have a lot to hide.......


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## B Thomas (Jan 21, 2005)

I always said when you run from the cops, something bad will probably happen....the media needs to stay out of it until the investigation is done.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

bad luck said:


> My wife and I both said thank god when we heard the thugs were killed, they need to kill more of these dirt balls instead of these costly trials and incarcerations.


so the cops should just ride around and shoot anyone with a rap sheet or a warrant out for them? Good grief, you really don't believe in the Constitution do you?


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

boatnut said:


> so the cops should just ride around and shoot anyone with a rap sheet or a warrant out for them? Good grief, you really don't believe in the Constitution do you?


No, we should treat them all to tea and crumpets, it's all the "mans" fault. God forbid ( am I still allowed to reference God? ) these dirt balls of society exercise personal responsibility. I'll take the cops side every day of the week in these situations

Their all innocent in jail, just ask 'em. 

Oh, and I'm one of the few with the constitution on a wall in my home, just when your a felon, you properly lose most rights


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## boatnut (Nov 22, 2006)

bad luck said:


> No, we should treat them all to tea and crumpets, it's all the "mans" fault. God forbid ( am I still allowed to reference God? ) these dirt balls of society exercise personal responsibility. I'll take the cops side every day of the week in these situations
> 
> Their all innocent in jail, just ask 'em.
> 
> Oh, and I'm one of the few with the constitution on a wall in my home, just when your a felon, you properly lose most rights


Congratulations for having a copy of our Constitution on your wall. Now maybe you should read the damn thing!


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## jonnythfisherteen2 (Mar 5, 2011)

bad luck said:


> No, we should treat them all to tea and crumpets, it's all the "mans" fault. God forbid ( am I still allowed to reference God? ) these dirt balls of society exercise personal responsibility. I'll take the cops side every day of the week in these situations
> 
> Their all innocent in jail, just ask 'em.
> 
> Oh, and I'm one of the few with the constitution on a wall in my home, just when your a felon, you properly lose most rights


there's so much wrong in this, it's not funny. 

the punisment does not fit the crime. no one should have to be riddled with bullets because they ran from cops. i guess people who run a red light should get the death penalty. or even better, anyone who assults another person should be executed.


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## Hoss5355 (Apr 9, 2004)

If the punishment were greater, these situations would happen less. Too many people don't understand right from wrong, or just don't care anymore. If you got caught stealing, and your hands got cut off, do you think you would take that risk and steal? There would be less of it going on for sure. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## whjr15 (Jun 16, 2005)

I don't care what the suspects were being pursued for, rightfully so or not; both of them being shot over two dozen times A PIECE is just plain unacceptable anyway you look at it.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Don`t believe a lot of persons are saying the police in this situation likely acted exactly "by the book". HOWEVER, if the 2 deceased were able to answer being asked "Given the chance AGAIN to JUST SURRENDER or attempting to flee with the same results, which would you choose NOW?" Wonder which action THEY would pick THIS time? DUH. There are MORE COPS than there are of you. THEY have MASSIVE "back up" and AIN`T afraid to USE it. THEY have radios, helos, and weapons upto and including fully auto assault rifles. YOU are NOT going to WIN. If they get your license plate number, even if they quit chasing you, what are you going to do? NEVER go back home again where likely they`ll be waiting for you? Quit your job, leave your family and flee to someplace with no extradition treaties? (North Korea, perhaps?) GET REAL...just surrender ! With a "GOOD" lawyer you`re back on the street before the cops finish their paperwork ! OR, you can try it the OTHER way...


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Lowell H Turner said:


> Don`t believe a lot of persons are saying the police in this situation likely acted exactly "by the book". HOWEVER, if the 2 deceased were able to answer being asked "Given the chance AGAIN to JUST SURRENDER or attempting to flee with the same results, which would you choose NOW?" Wonder which action THEY would pick THIS time? DUH. There are MORE COPS than there are of you. THEY have MASSIVE "back up" and AIN`T afraid to USE it. THEY have radios, helos, and weapons upto and including fully auto assault rifles. YOU are NOT going to WIN. If they get your license plate number, even if they quit chasing you, what are you going to do? NEVER go back home again where likely they`ll be waiting for you? Quit your job, leave your family and flee to someplace with no extradition treaties? (North Korea, perhaps?) GET REAL...just surrender ! With a "GOOD" lawyer you`re back on the street before the cops finish their paperwork ! OR, you can try it the OTHER way...


I would imagine if you asked the cops if they were given a chance to call off the chase like the 5th district did instead of killing two unarmed people they probably would. Luckily there weren't two kids in the back seat.


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## bad luck (Apr 9, 2009)

jonnythfisherteen2 said:


> there's so much wrong in this, it's not funny.
> 
> the punisment does not fit the crime. no one should have to be riddled with bullets because they ran from cops. i guess people who run a red light should get the death penalty. or even better, anyone who assults another person should be executed.




Actually just release these folks in your neighborhood, I'm sure their fine, upstanding members of society.


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