# Hello. My name is Gary and I'm a...



## Gary (Apr 14, 2004)

*FISHAHOLIC*.  

I've always heard that the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem. I suppose maybe the second step is to accept support from those who love you and the third may be to seek out those who have been down the same path and have learned to cope with the disease. Well folks, here I am. Once again, I hit rock bottom as I seemingly do every year as the flatheads stop biting in the Big O while they spawn. I went paylaking. I'm so ashamed...  

There I sat last Friday night, casting over and over into the abyss to no avail. Watching and waiting for the tell-tale disappearance of my glow sticks and the sweet sound of my bait clickers, I sat there as Friday night turned into Saturday morning while the fog settled down like a security blanket over my troubled soul. Guilty feelings crept in over spending 20 bucks in support of such a deplorable business while not even so much as getting a bite all night and then it happened...  

Just as I was about to reel in a particularly lively green sunfish in order to reposition the little fellow, the float he was drifting under slowly disappered into the depths. As the line tightened and the bait clicker played it's familiar song, I felt my heart start to race. Engaging the reel and setting the hook with authority, I immediately felt the power of the fish and the rush that comes over me like the loss of virginity as I landed my first 25 pound flathead of the year. Within short order I put a nice 15-20 pound blue on the bank followed by a little 10 pound flathead caught on the first bait of choice by nearly every red-blooded American boy. Yes that's right, I caught him on worms. Drowning in glee, I found myself anticipating the next bite. Just as it seemed the bite had passed, one of my floats suddenly sank. Grabbing my rod, I engaged the reel and allowed the fish to tighten the line a bit. With a very hard set of the hook, I quickly realized that I'd latched onto something much, much larger than before. As the fish hit the surface, my heart pounded as I took in the enormity of it. The fish put up a good fight, but it wasn't long until the big blue found himself on the bank. 










This one was certainly big enough to carry over for an official weight so another guy helped me take him. It felt great as my arm grew tired on the way to the bait house and there certainly were no longer any guilty feelings over that 20 dollar ticket as I was given the weight of 57 1/2 pounds!  WHOOO HOOO!!










I got to go back. I can't help it. I'm just not ready for the wagon yet. I'm sorry...  

--Gary


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh man...did you ever just open a big can of worms !!


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

haha mrfish


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## Bass_Hawg (Apr 12, 2004)

Great story, even better fish! ! !


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## oufisherman (Apr 10, 2004)

I think it's safe to say that you're not the only FISHACHOLIC on this site! At least we can all be together in one place!


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## Rooster (Apr 8, 2004)

OK, its Friday..Ill bite!

Too bad someone removed that beautiful fish from its natural habitat (like the Ohio River), stuck it in a mud hole, and charged people to fish. It would be a truly impressive catch out of any public waterway, it is just a depressing site when caught out of an establishment that is raping our rivers and lakes!

Individuals remove large cats from their natural habitat because pay lakes will pay a premium for large cats. Paylakes will pay a premium for large cats because there are many individuals that want a chance to catch a large cat, and will pay for that opportunity.

By frequenting paylakes, you are supporting this system! That is, if no one frequented paylakes, there would not be the same demand for large catfish, and more large cats would stay in the natural habitat. Just think, then people could actually FISH for them (free of charge)!


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## THarris (Apr 12, 2004)

I cannot say it any better than Rooster just did so I will agree with him 110%. 

Paylakes are evil!


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## Perch (Apr 5, 2004)

Nice Fish.............................did he take live bait or something dead?

Also to the "anti-paylakers"........ we may not all agree on the ethical aspects of fishing one, but it bumms me out to see a guy post a nice thread like the above and then see 4 other posts degrading him for the catch, rather where he caught the fish.

Are paylakes Illegal? Not yet..............they may be some day.............Until then, it would be fair to say running a boat up the Ohio to catch a Blue is just as legal as paying a guy at a lake to catch a Blue......................

Do I paylake? No....................But its stil not fair to give a guy a hard way to go for a legal activity.

2cents.lets hope nobody gets all pisssed off


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## smalliehunter (Apr 12, 2004)

I dont agree with paylaking, simply because of the way that most if not all of these paylakes obtain thier monster cats to stock in thier lakes. I know its not illegal to fish paylakes, but ethically its wrong. Not being a big catman myself (i am the bassin half of the RRP), myself and my RRP partner Tharris have combed the banks of the local rivers and lakes seeking out a "flattie hole"......covered lots of miles, looked at lots of structure, fished numerous hours......... to date i have not landed one  .......... HOWEVER.....I would rather go "flattieless" then to visit a paylake, pay my 20 bucks and land some beast taken from its natural waters, just to catch a fish......... the whole idea of fishing is what i mentioned above........to see your efforts pay off with a nice catch. Now these are only my thoughts, i am not bashing the orginal poster who landed the 57lb blue......i am bashing the ethical decision this guy made to fish a pay lake, support its un-ethical practices of stocking big cats, based soley on my perspective of paylakes  . Never critize a person, if you must critize then critize the idea, thought or actions............... I believe i have done that..........


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## Perch (Apr 5, 2004)

I'll Buy that Smallie..................................Like I said, Im not a Paylaker either................I just have a problem with the attitude of some on here about these legal practices..........................believe me, theres alot more out there yet to weigh in......................

Perhaps the Team OGF guys should advertise this free site ( which is way cool, by the way ) as "free, but just dont bring up paylaking or face a rash of crapp"...................

The Mods dont put up with Bowfishing bashers...................and in MY OWN opinion, this practice is way more barbaric, as every fish ends up dead and rotten ....................They are never gonna outlaw paylakes.................................They are never gonna outlaw guys fishing the Ohio river for Blue cats either................Not every guy can afford a boat to take out to the rivers and fish big Blues.

Thresher...Milford, Ohio


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## Lewis (Apr 5, 2004)

Touchy subject...keep it civil guys...


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## shuvlhed1 (Apr 13, 2004)

and I'll say it again. While paylaking is stocked lake cheating, it does tend to attract that moron drunken ******* crowd that would otherwise be taking up space on the river or at a public park somewhere. Count your blessings.


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## Perch (Apr 5, 2004)

Great site you all have here Lewis, 

My intentions are nothing but Civil here................you would have to agree that if you posted a pic of a 57 lb Blue that you caught , and checked back to see that half the replies were negative towards it..............that would discourage about anyone that would visit or join here....................

My thoughts are this: If you dont approve of the location of a fish caught by a member here, spouting off will not change ANYTHING about it. 

Its Legal to paylake if one wishes. Why give a guy a hard time? 

I know the Mods here have better values than that.


T Milford, Ohio


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## Perch (Apr 5, 2004)

After reading your post, Ill ask you: What lake isnt Stocked? Do you cheat my friend?

T Milford Ohio


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## smalliehunter (Apr 12, 2004)

Nothing but civil here..........


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## Jitterbug (Apr 13, 2004)

I'm against paylaking and would not go to one myself. That is how I feel. However, you cannot possibly call in "unethical" behavior. Littering, cheating, stealing.....these are unethical behaviors. Not visiting a paylake. I do understand the strong negative feelings towards those that do visit paylakes and especially those that "advertise" their catches on a board that has long stood agains such practices. Let's not get out of hand though and call it "unethical behavior." It is not.


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## smalliehunter (Apr 12, 2004)

It was a un-ethical decision to support the actions of un-ethical practices of obtaining monster cats for pay lakes. Not sure how you argue the point of not calling it un-ethical behavior......... taking monster cats out of natural waters to stock pay lakes is un-ethical...... Goes against the basic ethics of fishing.......... to support (paying 20 bucks, etc) a place that practices un-ethical means of stocking their lake is UN ETHICAL....... my perspective only..........


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## Perch (Apr 5, 2004)

I can see where some fellas on here get upset with guys netting big Blue Catfish from the Ohio River and selling them to Paylakes............I understand they are listed as endangered in this body of water, and it doesnt make sense to be able to net them and sell them................

Here is a fact thats being missed by many guys.............. I own a lake, along with 198 other fisherman..............its a private club. We have 60 acres, about half of it water...............we stock with Flatheads, Blues ( yes), Bass and Channels................The company we get our Blues from NEVER bring us a Blue larger than 15 Pounds...........They get them from Ky Lake , not the Ohio river..................Our Blue Cats are Huge..we have a few 60 # plus.............they grow up in our lake, and we are not a paylake...................Our Flatheads spawn in our lakes.......Its common to catch little babies all the time...............but we also have homegrown 50 # plus fish.............Stocked? yes......................

Are the Trout that they put in the Mad river "natural"? The fish are raised at a hatchery to be put in the rivers and streams. How about the Millions of Hybrid stripers that they have dumped in Eastfork since the 80's.....Same with the Ohio River Hybrid stripers................These fish dont even have a chance to reproduce, thus the name "Hybrid"................Is this Ethical? how many of you have fished East fork or the Ohio for Hybrids....Lots I'm sure......lets not even go into about the Billions of Walleyes that are raised just for the great Lake Erie, and BOY does it cost alot to fish there !!!!!!..  ...Its easy to get an idea in your head and then generalize....................just 2 more civil cents worth

T Milford , Ohio


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## skeeziks (Apr 14, 2004)

You said that paylaking tends to attract that moron drunken ******* crowd. Well, have you ever been to Meldahl Dam when the cats and stripers are hittin'?!?! Talk about your world's largest paylake!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2004)

Nice fish Gary, I would love to tangle with one that big.  


I agree with flathunter, I dont like fishing paylakes that much either but hey, at least they have to release the big boys. I would much rather sit at a paylake all day and not catch anything, than go to the local lake or river and watch as the true morons keep hundreds of undersized fish. Thanks to people like them, one of my favorite places to fish is now ruined. 

Oh by the way shuvelhead what do you consider a *******, because the way you described them are nothing like any I know.  

Proud to be *******  > seth


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

First of all - that's one incredible fish! 2X the size of my PB  

I don't fish paylakes! But, it's not because I hate all paylakes; I just can't see paying to fish when there is so much public water. Call me cheap I guess!  
I just wanted to say that I don't really have a problem with the idea of paying to fish. I paid for a guided trip on the Ohio River back in May. 

On the contrary, I do have a problem with trophy fish being transported from their natural environment for any reason. Yes, I know it is legal, but I wouldn't approve of ANYBODY keeping mature trophy cats. 

I guess what bothers me most is that many paylakes overstock trophy fish and take generally poor care of the lake environment creating insufficient habitat which results in poor survival rates. A trophy Flat of say 40 lbs is probably around 25-30 yrs. old. Is it fair for that 30 yr. old fish to be transported to a poor environment, caught half a dozen times, and then it dies.  

I don't have a problem at all with well run establishments (Lake Isabella) - and there are several around the state. I do hate to see lakes in poor condition and overstocked with trophy fish. 

I have a paylake 3 minutes from my house. There sign currently says, "Fish to win a chance to spin the wheel and win from $15-$???" This is what it's all about guys - $$$$  

I say if you like to gamble; go out and fish some public water with a buddy and make some bets on first fish, most fish, big fish, etc.... 

Finally, I'll step off my pedestal by saying that I have made a conscious decision Not to fish paylakes. But, I'm also not going to beat somebody up because they did.

Good fishing to all!


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## monsterKAT11 (Jun 20, 2004)

personally i woulnd't fish a paylake just because in my openion a paylake isn't "real fishing" i'd rather go out myself and just have the challenge of finding a great spot myself, now adays paylakes are INFESTED, which can also be a good thing meaning they'll keep you busy but i just don't prefer it.


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## TheKing (Apr 15, 2004)

Way to go and I hope you don't recover from the illness. The first step toward curing the disease is admitting to it, and you did a fine job of that with your composition. A fun and interesting read.

Last week I caught a 25 inch saugeye that was grown in the state hatchery and set free in the lake down in New Burlington. But it can't compare to that blue. The pictures were great.

Does that one have a name?


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## Fish4Fun (Apr 6, 2004)

Nice fish. I agree with monsterkat on the subject and I just don't feel that paylakes are real fishing. Its like the hunting camps were they pin up deer they have no were to go and here ya go buddy pay me $1500 and you can shoot that big giant buck right there and hang it on your wall. We all have opinions and its still a nice fish. I spend to much fishing lakes anyway couldn't afford to go to paylakes.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Lots of people miss the points of paylakes. With a lot of people it is not about the trill of catching big fish. I go to paylakes and fish in tournaments. You would be shocked by the amount of money you can make. The same thing with money jars and tag fish. Most paylakes have lots of small channels that you can keep. I live on the sciota and i im not really sure if i want to eat those cats. But the farm cats from the paylake are great. It is like buying fish from krogers, only you catch it yourself. Those are the reasons i will fish at a paylake. 
But I would rather catch a 15 pound flathead out of the sciota than a 35 pound cat out of a paylake any day


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

I personally know rustyfish, as he was my roommate in college. Rusty isn't that good of a fisherman, which he forgot to mention, and that is another reason he paylakes.

As far as fishing for once wild fish for money in a puddle, you can fish tournaments for cats many places in natural settings and boats are not a requirment so that can't be an argument.

I do agree with the farm raised channels for food as aposed to wild fish however, in that aspect paylakes are "okay."


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Fish man dont say mean things. Sice you are the same person that drove all the way to the james river, which is full of big cats. Then you paid a guide, that has been fishing the river all his life, to take you to all of the best spots so you could catch a big catfish. They each took turns watching the six polls that the guide baited up and casteded out, I think the guide even took the hook out. And you did it strictly for the thrill, not a tournement, not for food, just for the trill and braging rights. Hmmmmmmm.... Yes i pay to fish in tournaments at paylakes that are well stocked. But at least i don't spend a load of money to fish in a river that you can fish for free. That my friend is laim, wild fish or not!!!!!!!!


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

People pay for guided fishing trips to fish for wild fish in a vacation like setting. The guide does the majority of the work so the client can have an enjoyable relaxing fishing experiance in waters that he or she is unfamilar with.


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## DaleM (Apr 5, 2004)

Just a warning, get off the pay lake arguments and get on with the original topic. If this continues I will lock this thread. NO MORE WARNINGS!!


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## monsterKAT11 (Jun 20, 2004)

i agree and once a again GREAT FISH!!


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

I can respect that, good call
GAME OVER


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

> Oh man...did you ever just open a big can of worms !!


Anyway, well written original post, I like the admission of paylaken shame & all that.  Creative! I know a guy who hand grabs big flats every spring & stocks his freezer (Ky license). They got 2ea. 40+ and 2ea. 20+ flats last Monday. From what I heard from some of the guys who went with him, it was a blast. You are in water over waist deep & have to dive down & grab them, they fight you back & almost drown you & break your arm. He only goes once a year or so. They pulled them out of the Ohio River in the Meldahl pool. I've got mixed emotions on that too. I wish he didn't keep them, but they are harvested for food & apparently not putting too big a dent in the population as he's able to go back & do it each year.  
Anyway, great read, hopefully someday Ohio and the Ohio River will be limited to only one cat kept per day over 34" to help save the big ones. As someone pointed out, paylakes have a money angle, the tournaments, that's what they are, a business for making money vs. a sporting opportunity. I got no problem with a business making money, just don't like that it's done with our natural resources. Doesn't matter what state the fish originate from, don't like wild fish being trucked in, I'd like to see them all use farm raised, then it wouldn't matter. This is one topic that will always be touchy and generate emotional responses.


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## Fishzilla (May 8, 2004)

fishohio- not from me it won't. Look closely and you will see circle bruises from my 10' pole  Nice blue though Gary. As an "eye guy" I can't imagine catching something that big. Good work on the post too-funny stuff


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

gary did you get any money with that fish. I dont know if that paylake has money jars or fish of the week or is it strickly fishing.


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## catking (Apr 5, 2004)

I see you finally posted something  Gary is one of the original " Rocky Fork Fog Crew"  .............. THE CATKING !!!


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

1st off,nice fish!
now,paylakes (and the maumee walleye run) aren't my way of fishing but if that's how someone enjoys fishing then go have a ball.that's what it's all about,enjoying yourself and relaxing!
that said i sure don't think paylake owners should be allowed to stock their lakes with fish taken from public waters.when you skim the fat off the top of the pot that's basically commercial fishing(my opinion).they should buy fish commercially,raise them,then stock them.
there's far too many serious problems in this world to worry about than pay lakes.here in my hometown ppg just got a permit from the epa that'll allow them to dump into the scioto river.how will that affect the fishing in the scioto and the streams that flow into it? ,wildlife is gonna be at risk as well as the water supply.and for how long? it's anyones guess.another case of how big money talks!
these kind of debates have gone on and will continue on outdoors forums.all of it never made any real sense to me.
paylakers vs non paylakers
traditional bowhunters vs compound bowhunters vs crossbow hunters
flintlock vs inline
plastic bags vs mesh(mushrooming)
tastes great vs less filling  
just get outdoors,legally do whatever you enjoy and, pass it along to your kids!


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## shuvlhed1 (Apr 13, 2004)

I am speaking from true experience from years of paylake fishing. Paylakes are kind of like discovering a huge oil well under your property and then having your neighbor drill sideways into your land and steal all your oil. Paylakes take natural resources from you and me and use them for profit. And they do it stupidly. They take too much. Just ask any good old river fisherman if the fishing is getting better or worse. And are we seriously going to compare state stocking of saugeye, steelhead, private pond stocking, and the like to a paylake stocking a 2 acre pond with 10s of thousands of pounds of fish every year? Alot of paylake fish die. They all lose a lot of weight when they are stocked. You hear about these lakes stocking 60, 70, 80lb fish and heavier? They probably lose 15 to 25% of their body weight in a month or so. Does this sound right?


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## Gary (Apr 14, 2004)

To answer one of the most common questions that I get from everyone who has seen the pics of the fish, I'll start by saying that I didn't win any money by catching the fish. It takes a fish of at least 60 pounds to hit the first weight jackpot. There are three jackpots at this lake; one for over 60 (up to 70 I think), one for over 70 and one for tag fish. There is also a $100 prize for the biggest fish of the weekend which is usually bumped up to a daily prize on holidays. The reasons I didn't win any money are simply because it didn't weigh over 60 lbs. and some other dude had caught one weighing in at 70 1/4 lbs. during the same 24 hour (noon to noon), $100 time period as I caught mine. At least he had caught his before I got there so I didn't have to sit on pins hoping mine would hold up. LOL There are a few fish at this place that are around 80-90 lbs. along with a 98 lb. blue (which has been caught three times now) and a 106 lb. flathead (which has a $1000 prize for catching it if someone were to be so lucky). In case anyone is wondering, there are no keeper channels in these ponds. There are so many large fish in there now that stocking small channels only serves to feed the big ones.

This lake is very well managed. Most fish look very healthy when caught. Of course some fish do lose a lot of weight over time, but it doesn't happen over night. It really isn't the fault of the paylakes that large catfish are being taken from our waters (most of the cats came from the Cumberland River at this lake if anyone is curious). If paylakes weren't buying them, the fish would likely go to a meat market somewhere because the practice of netting them is perfectly legal in many places. This will probably never change because catfish aren't sexy enough, they compete with bass for food and as most paylakers know,  they like to eat bass too. Ever notice that you NEVER, EVER see flatheads or blues listed on any lake stocking lists? Ever wonder why not? They eat the sexy fish. That's why not. Blues are supposedly endangered in Ohio and yet there are no bag limits or restrictions on them at all, but in the same breath, the ODNR will use the endangered species excuse for not having a record for blue catfish. 

My stance on paylakes is simply that as long as those big cats are there, someone is going to be trying to catch them and it might as well be me once in a while when the ones in the wild won't bite. It is a lot different than river fishing and it takes some patience and knowledge to be successful at it. While I am proud to have caught a 50+ blue at the paylake, I am even more proud of the 27 1/2 lb. flathead that I caught from the bank of the mighty Ohio River. Oh yeah baby!!  I can't wait to top it either. My best this year is a little 8 pounder, but they'll turn on again in a couple more weeks.

I know everyone has their own set of values and that's great. That's part of what makes this an interesting place. If we all had the same opinions and ideas, what would be the point of discussing anything at all? 

--Gary


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## Gary (Apr 14, 2004)

from the Ohio if anyone's interested. Sorry about the grainy old Polaroid scan. I didn't carry a digital back then (2000). Thanks for the props from those of you who either appreciated my original post or the fish that I caught. I thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's responses.










--Gary


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## Perch (Apr 5, 2004)

Great Post Gary !!!....................I think this whole thread has been very Civil, with the exception of a couple posts................Interesting reads !!  

T Milford, Ohio


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

I am a fish managements student and every source we have learned from has explaind how farming, polution, and habitat distruction is to blame for the decline in fish numbers. total of fish kept for any reason does not even put a dent in the population compared to these other factors. Every one blames paylakes for low numbers of cats. But in reality thining out the numbers of larger none spawning fish that eat masive amounts of food is best for the entire fishing population. Now we all know this is not the purpose of these lakes, but it makes you wonder how much damage they are realy doing.


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

Good post!

Pay laking is not really fishing a whole lot considering most of these lakes from what I hear are stocked so full, it is not hard to catch a big one. just as long as your bait is in front of them when they get hungry. 

A 6 pound bass is fun to catch when you get him in the wild, but after he was put into my uncles pond ( a small pond that is) it was nothing to catch him once a week. Hardly even fought any more.

Now, in defense of the paylakes, I thought it would be a nice thing if I could some day when I have some property out of town, build a good sized pond and eventually charge a small fee for people to fish. Let me elaborate!  I would not charge to make a lot of money. I would charge simply for upkeep. clean up stocking fish and stuff like that. Some place that a family of 4 or 5 could come and for 10 bucks, spend a whole day or entire weekend with the kids catching some bass, gills, crappies, or even cats. I could also have it open and accessible for handicapped individuals. Free of charge of course. I think it would be a nice thing to do. something I think is need around my area. Even have some poles available for some that may not ba as fortunate as us to have these luxuries. Something to turn some kids onto fishing instead of turning them on to snagging a fish stuck in a shallow puddle without a choice but to eat sometime and get hooked in the process. ok I am done with my dream of what I would like to do someday!


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

I dont get it? Why does almost everyone think its so easy to catch these big fish, even from a paylake? I'm not a real experienceed paylaker, but each time I've went i've seen very few people actually catch fish.

I ised to be totally agasint paylakes, but I am changing my attitude somewhat. For me fishing has became almost like work, like a job that I have to do. Thats why I've taken a break. I'll be hitting the river for some smallie wadding soon, hopefully that will allow me to relax a little more, and get back to where fishing was fun. But I dont have anything agasint someone that goes paylaking. In fact none of us river guys should care, becasue if they are paylaking, that means theres an open bank spot somewhere.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Jeffmo, who is dumping what where in the scioto river. I live near the river in Waverly and i already feel that there is alot of undesirable contents in the river flowing down for the columbus area, but that is just a hunch.

What is the fishing like on the scioto up in the columbus area, I have heard the river condition is really bad, but never heard it from truly reliable sources.

IN response to H2OMellon's comment. I have been to many paylake tournements in which i did not catch a fish, i think my averages are actually better in the river, smaller but more.


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## shuvlhed1 (Apr 13, 2004)

No skeeziks, it is the same reason I limit my time at the dams on the GMR in Hamilton to nearly zero!



skeeziks said:


> You said that paylaking tends to attract that moron drunken ******* crowd. Well, have you ever been to Meldahl Dam when the cats and stripers are hittin'?!?! Talk about your world's largest paylake!!!!!!!!!!


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## H2O Mellon (Apr 5, 2004)

Not just there, the WC dam sees its crowds too!!! The bad thing is that heck fish dont even ahve to be hitting there. I've seen countless # of times where there are 10+ people fishing there, & total # of fish is zero!


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

rustyfish said:


> I am a fish managements student and every source we have learned from has explaind how farming, polution, and habitat distruction is to blame for the decline in fish numbers. total of fish kept for any reason does not even put a dent in the population compared to these other factors. Every one blames paylakes for low numbers of cats. But in reality thining out the numbers of larger none spawning fish that eat masive amounts of food is best for the entire fishing population. Now we all know this is not the purpose of these lakes, but it makes you wonder how much damage they are realy doing.


Rustyfish, I'm not sure where your getting your information, but you might want to recheck some of the statements you just made before taking any test.

That is if you want to pass the test anyway........


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

Just a few comments on what you said Gary. 
First this:


> (most of the cats came from the Cumberland River at this lake if anyone is curious).


 TN changed their regulations so no catfish over 34" may be harvested by commecial fisherman and only one per day over 34" by sport anglers. This went into effect about 2 or maybe 3 years ago, many of the commercial guys moved up into Ky and the Ohio River which has no restrictions.

"Here is an excerpt from Tennessee Sportsman Magazine
that will explain new catfish management plans in Tennessee.

Making Tennessee's big-cat prospects even better, special "trophy catfish" regulations went into effect statewide this year. While anglers may still keep as many catfish as they want to, with no minimum size, only one catfish of 34 inches or longer may be kept in a day. The limit applies to alternative methods, like limb-line fishing and noodling, as well as rod-and-reel fishing. In addition, statewide commercial regulations now prohibit the harvest of any catfish over 34 inches."

Second:


> Blues are supposedly endangered in Ohio and yet there are no bag limits or restrictions on them at all, but in the same breath, the ODNR will use the endangered species excuse for not having a record for blue catfish


You are required to imeadiately release any bluecats unharmed. Same with all of the animals on the endangered species list. No bag limits on *bald eagles either??*


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

rustyfish,here's the link to the scioto river story
http://www.circlevilleherald.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=15559&SectionID=3&SubSectionID=&S=1

whether this will hurt humans or wildlife is to be seen.


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## Onion (Apr 10, 2004)

1,4 Dioxane, the chemical that contaminated the groundwater being discharged to the river, is not a terribly hazardous chemical to people. most of the hazards appear to be from inhalation which is nto a concern when mixed with water.

Also the chemical does not bioaccumulate (like DDT) which means it will not have a significant long-term effect on the wildlife (supposedly). 

The old axiom is, dilution is the solution to pollution. In this case that is important to remember. They are permitting a discharge of 2.8 millions gpd to a river flowing at 280 million gpd. Keep in mind that the concentration of dioxane in the groundwater is probably less than 1%. In other words its a tiny amount of pollutant in a HUGE amount of water.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Fishman, quit bustin my chops when you know im right, i dont know if you trust what Joe Cahill teaches but you know im right.

Explain exactly what is wrong, I would like to know. Habitat distruction is the top threat to fish. And I know you feel the same way about larger cats, the same concept as flaties on a pond. And you know that big ones eat more and spawn less. The same reason they dont want larg brood stock at the hatchery. Now please Really prove me wrong or let be be right.

*Not including saltwater*


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## rockbass (Apr 16, 2004)

H2O--- I can explain my reason for saying that these cats are easy to catch. Though you personally may not catch a big one when you go, it would, in my opinion, be easier to catch a fish in a pay lake than in a natural setting. I am not a pay lake expert, but hear me out! Please!  

Fish will eat sooner or later. Right or Wrong?? Well I think that if you take a relatively small body of water and stock way more big fish than you really should in it, would it not be easier to catch that one hungry fish than if you are fishing say a lake that is 3,000 acres of open water?? Or a river/creek that stretches on for 100 or even 1000 miles??? I mean if I built a pond in my yard that was only a hundred foot by 50 foot by 10 ft deep, then "stocked", or as I call it, rape nature by taking a bunch of big fish from another body of water, 20 - 50 pound fish........... Would it not be an easy catch for someone?? I mean given that each fish will not be hitting at every moment, if I sit there for hours with a line out, I will have an easy catch as opposed to actually scouting a river or lake and learning how to fish for these fish. Maybe it would be fun to catch the same 40 pounder a hundred times in a pond. I don't know. The biggest one I have gotten to date is 30lb. Though I can take pride in the fact that I caught it in the "wild". Where that same fish had hundreds of miles of water to swim and feed. I was a lucky one that got him. And released him to fight another day if someone else gets as lucky as I did. Makes you feel good.

Now on the other side of this. I read about the money that is involved. That is cool. I mean hey if I could win some money, I am in. At the same time, I don't think these fish should be coming from our public fishing waters. I also would not take a whole lot of pride in the fact that I killed a sitting duck so to speak.


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## Gary (Apr 14, 2004)

Hehe. That was one nice BIG Blue you caught that time Jimmy.  



mrfishohio said:


> TN changed their regulations so no catfish over 34" may be harvested by commecial fisherman and only one per day over 34" by sport anglers. This went into effect about 2 or maybe 3 years ago, many of the commercial guys moved up into Ky and the Ohio River which has no restrictions.


Who said anything about Tennessee? Although many of the fish did come from the Tennessee River as well. Both of these rivers flow a long way through Kentucky to meet the Ohio. 



mrfishohio said:


> You are required to imeadiately release any bluecats unharmed. Same with all of the animals on the endangered species list. No bag limits on *bald eagles either??*  .


First I've heard of it. I've never been under the impression that Blue Catfish is officially on the endangered species list. I hope so, but it wouldn't make much difference to Joe Schmoe who's fishin' for food. He likely wouldn't know how to tell a Blue from a Channel anyway so unless Big Brother happens to look over his shoulder at an opportunistic moment, that Blue is going home with him.  

--Gary


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

mrfishohio, Can you give me some exact info about being required to imeadiately release any bluecats unharmed. I have not been able to find any info on this.

I could be wrong on this, but i can not really see how blues are endangered in ohio. I dont think they are native to ohio. Yea The range of bluecats does cover the ohioriver, but as for ohio they are not really native. Yes they do come up from the ohio, but i dont know if they would be considered endagered if they never really had an established population. 

On the other hand maybe we should protect what few blues we are lucky enough to get here. If i am wrong or if anyone has other info please tell me. Like i said im not very sure about this and i havenot found much information. 

The reason i said all of this is because i have met allot of people in ohio who were under the impression that there was once a Wide spread population in ohio and that now they are dissapearing.

Please fill me in.


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## shuvlhed1 (Apr 13, 2004)

it is in there. If you can't find it there, go to the DNR's website and search for endangered species. It is also in there, unless it has been removed in the past month or so (last time I looked at it). 

As for releasing them unharmed, It stands to reason that if the fish is on the endangered species list it should be immediately released unharmed. Kinda goes back to that bag limit on the bald eagle thing.


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## catking (Apr 5, 2004)

Were once very well established in Ohio, before the rivers , mainly the Ohio , was dammed. The dam systems all but broke the blues populations. Yes, they were very native to Ohio  Lakes?? NO. But the Great Miami and Ohio.yes. THE CATKING !!!


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## striperfreak (Apr 30, 2004)

according to trautman, author of fishes of ohio, a 100.00 $ book hocking college told us to buy, blue catfish were numerous in the ohio river and its tributaries prior to 1910, when the dams started to be built, due to less rapids and increased siltation the blue cat has slowly dwindled in abundance since. i guess that means that they are native to the ohio river. uh, i guess thats all i know. oh yea, in my opinion, overharvest of fishes can be the primary problem in fish populations in certain enviroments..........


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## Fishzilla (May 8, 2004)

Jeffmo- and people wonder why I won't fish that far south! That does not sound very healthy  

Anyone- Do people really eat those big old cats?  I can't imagine eating a 30# flathead- YUK!


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

thanks for the info, as for the ohio river, yes i know, but I was talking about ohio (the state), I did not know if there was ever a large enough population in the scioto and miami to matter.


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

FISHES 

Ohio lamprey Ichthyomyzon bdellium 
Northern brook lamprey Ichthyomyzon fossor 
Mountain brook lamprey Ichthyomyzon greeleyi 
Lake sturgeon Acipenser fulvescens 
Shovelnose sturgeon Scaphirhynchus platorynchus 
Spotted gar Lepisosteus oculatus 
Shortnose gar Lepisosteus platostomus 
Cisco (or Lake herring) Coregonus artedi 
Goldeye Hiodon alosoides 
Speckled chub Macrhybopsis aestivalis 
Pugnose minnow Opsopoeodus emiliae 
Popeye shiner Notropis ariomus 
Blackchin shiner Notropis heterodon 
Blacknose shiner Notropis heterolepis 
Mississippi silvery minnow Hybognathus nuchalis 
Blue sucker Cycleptus elongatus 
Longnose sucker Catostomus catostomus 
Blue catfish Ictalurus furcatus 
Mountain madtom Noturus eleutherus 
Northern madtom Noturus stigmosus 
Scioto madtom *E Noturus trautmani 
Pirate perch Aphredoderus sayanus 
Western banded killifish Fundulus diaphanus menona 
Spotted darter Etheostoma maculatum 

Here's the link at the DNR ... Click. 
Note...you'll see the Bald Eagle on the link too........ 
This is the fish in question...
*Blue catfish Ictalurus furcatus *


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

Endangered Species

Any unusual or apparently rare fish species that is encountered while seining or trapping for bait should be returned to the water. The chance of catching an endangered fish is so unlikely, it should not deter anyone from collecting bait fish.

Ohio's endangered species include 30 mussels, 3 lampreys, and 17 or more small fish that could be found while collecting bait. The endangered status of these fish and mollusks is due to habitat alteration caused mainly by (1) siltation from soil erosion, resulting in loss of clear waters and spawning habitat; (2) construction of dams which prevent fish from reaching their upstream spawning areas; (3) degradation of water quality from acid mine drainage, municipal sewage discharges, and industrial and agricultural discharges; and (4) loss of aquatic habitat through drainage activities and stream channelization.


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

Why ??


> Who said anything about Tennessee


 It was said the fish in that paylake came from the Cumberland River.......which much of it is regulated by TN.


> (most of the cats came from the Cumberland River at this lake if anyone is curious).


Which under current regulations would be illegal as commercial fisherman aren't permitted any(catfish-all species of catfish) over 34" and sport anglers are not permitted to sell fish. 

As for bluecats, they are scare in Ohio , other than the Ohio River & that's mostly owned & regulated by KY. Many channels are mistaken to be blues. Once you fish where blues reside & become accustomed to the them, it would be difficult to misidentify them. They are distintively different. Although I'm still confused sometimes on smalled ones  They have a humped back & a smaller mouth than channels and tend to get real light in cold weather & their fins go pinkish too. Otherwise, their coloration is close to a gray colored channelcat.


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## Gary (Apr 14, 2004)

in my own little search yesterday. I had thought that the Blues were only classified as threatened and of course, I was mistaken. Then my interest turned to just what endangered means in terms of regulations pertaining to catching and keeping or catching and releasing these fish. I couldn't find anything more than what you found in the bait section. It seems to me that if the ODNR wants to ensure that Joe Schmoe returns that fish to the water ASAP, they would spell it out in some very easy to comprehend words like "you MUST return this fish to the water immediately" or some such. Furthermore, I sure would like to see some good pics and tips on identifying the fish on the list as your regular Joe Schmoes like me wouldn't be able to recognize many of the endangered species if we were to catch one.

MrFish, I hope you didn't think I was trying to bust your chops on the TN thing. I could have been more specific and said something like the Cumberland River in KY to begin with.  It is good to see that TN has taken a stand in protecting the populations of larger fish down there.

--Gary


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## shuvlhed1 (Apr 13, 2004)

How stupid do we need to assume people are. An endangered species by definition should not be harmed in any way. Do we need to spell it out on all endangered species? I hate to go to the bald eagle thing yet again, but do we need to spray paint their sides in flourescent orange "Do not shoot"???!!!
This is the same mentality that requires commercial bait to be labeled with a "not for human consumption" label. Maybe the DNR can take billions out of their already oversized  budget and put signs all over the state with a list of all endangered species with identifying pictures. And the heck with stocking programs and wildlife conservation programs, I want a state issued ruler about every 50 feet on every body of water in the state so no one would mistake an undersized fish for a keeper.


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

Jim,


Blue catfish actually are a fairly numerous, widely-occurring species. Their native range extends from major river systems of the eastern and central United States down through Mexico and into Central America.



They are considered endangered in Ohio because their relative abundance decreased throughout the 1900's. Their distribution in Ohio is limited to the Ohio River and the lower ends of its large tributaries. This is along the northern extent of the distribution of blue catfish, so they never were as abundant in Ohio as in southern states. Dam building and subsequent sedimentation destroyed habitat for blue catfish in the Ohio River. Because of this, blue catfish became even scarcer in Ohio. An encouraging sign in recent years is that sampling and fishing records suggest that blue catfish are starting to become more numerous in the Ohio River, probably due to recent improvements in habitat.



There are no fishing regulations on blue catfish because they are on the Threatened and Endangered list, therefore any possession is illegal. The Ohio Administrative Code, Chapter 1501:31-23-01, "Special endangered wild animal regulations", Paragraph (C) states:



_It shall be unlawful for any person to take, transport, sell, offer for sale or possess any of the native endangered species of wild animals, applying to endangered wild animals that are either resident within or migrate into or through Ohio, or hides or parts thereof listed in this rule or any other wildlife order without first obtaining a written permit from the wildlife chief, except as provided in paragraphs (B) and (F) of this rule. Provided further, it shall be unlawful to trespass in areas posted with signs stating "Endangered Species Nesting Area, Trespassing Unlawful."_ 



Thank you for writing to the Division of Wildlife.


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

I hope the above answers your question...


> mrfishohio, Can you give me some exact info about being required to imeadiately release any bluecats unharmed. I have not been able to find any info on this.


There are no fishing regulations on blue catfish because they are on the Threatened and Endangered list, therefore any possession is illegal. The Ohio Administrative Code, Chapter 1501:31-23-01, "Special endangered wild animal regulations", Paragraph (C) states:



It shall be unlawful for any person to take, transport, sell, offer for sale or possess any of the native endangered species of wild animals, applying to endangered wild animals that are either resident within or migrate into or through Ohio, or hides or parts thereof listed in this rule or any other wildlife order without first obtaining a written permit from the wildlife chief, except as provided in paragraphs (B) and (F) of this rule. Provided further, it shall be unlawful to trespass in areas posted with signs stating "Endangered Species Nesting Area, Trespassing Unlawful." 

Gary, no not at all (re: TN, busting chops, etc) took it for face value, I was just passing on info for TN...Cumberland River. That's where everyone I know goes to fish it, in TN for bluecats. Like I said, I just wish paylakes had to use all farm raised & not wild fish. 
As far as commecial fisherman taking a toll, just look at all the studies done in the ocean, they have decimated populations of wild fish, and that is much larger than the inland rivers & lakes. Gill nets ARE permitted in the Ohio River, along with hoop nets & long trot lines. Let's put a few of those in the areas where you fish and see if they can do more damage than is already occuring rusty.... When you see fish removed by the *tons* (we're not just taling about a couple of fish) from a stretch of river, don't tell me it has no effect. If you 'd see just one net pulled in with 10-15 fish with maybe 5-8 over 20# and see these nets close to every creek and along dropoffs, I'd bet you'd agree. I'm talking 20-30 nets in a 5 mile stretch. That along the whole pool too, all of the pools. The whole river. I don't know who's feeding you facts about fish destruction, might be real true in a farm pond, but where commercial anglers are allowed, they do take a toll.
BTW, flatheads up to 50# spawn because as I previously mentioned, I know a guy who handgrabs every year & he says his largest was 54#, and many are in the 40# range. So his theory is the ones over 50# don't spawn anymore or he'd be catching them. These are guys who are on the water, not in classrooms behind a desk. I get my information firsthand, from guides, commercialfisherman, and other fisherman, and the DNR. The quality of water is at an all time high, but the population of big cats is down. Check with tournament reports, and ask some guides, many of whom quit guiding from lack of fish.


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## Fishman (Apr 5, 2004)

rustyfish said:


> mrfishohio, Can you give me some exact info about being required to imeadiately release any bluecats unharmed. I have not been able to find any info on this.
> 
> I could be wrong on this, but i can not really see how blues are endangered in ohio. I dont think they are native to ohio. Yea The range of bluecats does cover the ohioriver, but as for ohio they are not really native. Yes they do come up from the ohio, but i dont know if they would be considered endagered if they never really had an established population.
> 
> ...


Rusty you crack me up dude! Between spelling errors and not knowing what you should know, tisk tisk you're lookin' a fool brotha.... gimme a call.. I need to have a chat with you  

Da King is right, dams destroyed the blue cats habitat in Ohio.


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

> Yes they do come up from the ohio, but i dont know if they would be considered endagered if they never really had an established population


That might be the definition of endangered......don't have an established population....endangered.


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Fishman you are out of control, i can understand picking a few things out of a post that large and quoteing and argueing them, but the whole thing. I have a learning disabilty and i cant spell dont make fun of me.....lol. You almost flunked geo-trig and i think it was cake, i dont make fun of you. And i am sorry i dont know every thing the almighty Tommy knows, but i am in the proccess of trying to learn from people on here while i have to put up with your crap. You know tom i do live on the scioto river and i have never caught a blue. And i dont know many who have. I have always thought that there never were very many of them in the river. And yes i know that the dams cut down the numbers of blues in the ohio river, but that would be Habitat destruction wouldnt it. Habitat destruction is the reason i used before and you didnt buy it. I belive you responded by saying---

"Rustyfish, I'm not sure where your getting your information, but you might want to recheck some of the statements you just made before taking any test."


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

I always though that there were ever only blues in the southern end of Ohio tribs. So that would consist of what the Scioto and the miami. I live one county up from the Ohio i live on the scioto and i have never heard anything much about blues up here. My buddies grandfather has been camping and fishing the river all his life and he said he has never seen many pulled out. Sure guys pull them out now and then, but i was under the impression that it has always been like that around here. Sure they should be protected, im gonna give ya that. But i cant see how people on this thread are saying that blues once had a wide spread population in ohio. Since when are the southern tips of the scioto and the miami wide spread. 

Like i said they should be protected but i guess that was just a little fuzzy to me at first because I was looking at it as the whole blue cat population in the US. When looking at this, the population is fine, but we as a state are and have always been hanging on by a thread. Then the addition of dams has hurt what we did have and pretty much push ohio out of their region. That is where i saw the problem and to me it seem like the law to protect the blues are not going to help. It is my opinion that releasing them is to little to late and the blues are not going to last in ohio. But i hope i am wrong.

And mrfishohio you are very right about the ocean but that is a complete different story. I am very sure that for most fresh water, habitat destruction is the #1 threat. And i also wish that paylakes would use all farm fish but that will never happen. I dont think a farmer could produce the big cats that paylakes want and sell them or a reasonable price.


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## NocturnalDeath (Jul 22, 2004)

If Blues are endagered... Then aren't all of these paylakes in violation?

Everytime you catch a blue at a paylake call the Ohio poacher hotline and insist it be returned to the river it came from...


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## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Like i said blues are endangered in ohio, but in lots of other states the population is fine. Most of the blues are coming from those states. 

Can anyone find or have info on plans or efforts to restablish blues in the scioto.


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## mrfishohio (Apr 5, 2004)

> Then aren't all of these paylakes in violation


The only fish permitted in paylakes have to be purchased from commercial fisherman. Many paylake owners have a commercial license. Ohio only permits commercial fishing in the Lake Erie district. The catfish from the Ohio River are caught under KY commercial license.
Anyone selling fish with a sport anglers license is in violation and considered a poacher I think if caught. There was a big sting operation a few years ago which busted quite a few paylakes & individuals. If you know of any paylakes purchasing fish from anyone other than commercial licensed fisherman, turn them in. 

Still seems real odd to me that they (Ohio) allow them used in paylakes when endangered here too.


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

Nice fish Gary. Wonder where it came from?

I feel the same way about tournament fishermen as most here do about paylakers. To each their own I guess....


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## Gary (Apr 14, 2004)

I just learned the other day that most of the fish being put in there have been coming from Georgia and Arkansas (I think) lately. Who knows where that one I caught came from originally?

--Gary


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