# Muzzleloader with hornady sst/Thompson shockwave performance?



## Harry1959

I hunt with a tc omega 110 gr BH 209(equal to about 135 gr pyrodex).
My gun absolutely loves 300 gr sst/shockwaves. 1 inch groups at 100yds. Any other projectile goes to 3-4 inch groups. Tried everything but Barnes variety, don’t know who sells them.
The last deer I shot with one of the sst was great bullet placement(see pics). Exit hole on deers right side. That deer took a long time to die, went over 300 yards(probably 400) 
and left a sparse blood trail at times. He was still able to run 90 minutes after the pictured double lung shot. The other deer I shot with 300 gr sst was took out both shoulders and died fast. I do however like shoulder roasts.
Anyone else ever have issues with the sst out of a muzzleloader, or maybe it was just a freakishly tough deer? I have been thinking about trying more loads.


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## Muddy

I have recovered SST's from several deer that I killed. They don't expand much at all at with a 100 grain charge of Pyrodex unless they hit major bone structure. But they are more accurate in my gun than anything else. They always get the job done.


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## Lundy

The 300 grain SST have very poor expansion and the 250 grain version explodes.

As some some that owns 8 muzzle loaders and has hunted almost exclusively for the last 20 years with them I strongly encourage you to try the Barnes copper bullets from your MZ, you will not be sorry


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## Bass&Bucks

X 2 on the Barnes copper. Excellent bullet. Switched to them last year. Very accurate out of my accura v2 and hit like a ton of bricks. Read some reviews on them. Very very little if any on poor performance


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## Flathead76

I quit shooting them years ago. They do not expand well at all. It's like shoving a pencil through a deer. Went back to shooting a hornady xtp bullet in 240 grain. The sst bullet is more accurate at over 100 yards but I rarely get or take a shot over 75 yards.


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## fastwater

Used to shoot either the 250grn SST or the 250grn T/C shockwaves with the yellow tipped bullet. Both these bullets are made by Hornady
and with the exception of the SST being red tipped and the TC shockwave being yellow tipped, they are identical. They shot extremely accurate out of the Pro Hunter with 110grns. of BH. Had issues with them practically disintegrating as Lundy pointed out. 

Switched to the 250grn shockwave ' bonded ' bullets ( has blue tip) and never looked back. They function just as well and have not had the exploding problem.


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## Harry1959

Thanks for the replies. Will find or order some Barnes spitfires t-ez. My omega has a real tight bore and difficult to load even with a clean bore .
As mentioned, I know the xtp has a real good rep for controlled expansion and killing. I get acceptable 100 yard groups from the ones I’ve shot, but not great.


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## excalman

Try some harvester crush rib sabot. you can order from midway or Cabela's my T\C has tight bore. My T\C loves the green sabot for the 44 cal bullet .It won't shoot any else with great with great results at 100 yds.


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## buckbob

go to www.prbullet.com i started shooting the 200 grain 40 cal. in my 50 cal. cva apex get sub 3/4 in. groups at 100 yds. shot an 8pt. last year at 110 yds. he kicked up hind legs and dropped right there


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## bobk

buckbob said:


> go to www.prbullet.com i started shooting the 200 grain 40 cal. in my 50 cal. cva apex get sub 3/4 in. groups at 100 yds. shot an 8pt. last year at 110 yds. he kicked up hind legs and dropped right there


Yep, these are a quality product. Last deer went in a circle and fell over dead. I'll stick with lead. I like how the expand. Excellent shooting as well.


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## Lundy

Tight fitting bores are not uncommon any more than loose fitting bores are. Both can effect accuracy and a tight fitting bore makes reloading very unpleasant.

You can typically solve that issue just by using a sabot that better fits your bore. With your tight fitting bore the HPH-24 will probably solve all of your problems no matter what bullet you select. It is 2 thousands smaller in diameter. My buddy has an OMEGA and cussed it like crazy while loading. I purchased the smaller diameter sabots for him to try and he has been smiling ever since.

http://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/

The PR bullets are nice bullets, I have killed some deer with them. The primary reason I switched back to Barnes over them is in the event of a poorly placed shot into a shoulder I know how the Barnes copper perform, I'm not sure about the PR bullets. I just decided not to try and fix something that wasn't broken.


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## Saugernut

Barnes does blow a very big hole


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## excalman

The barnes spitfires wouldn't group past 50 yards out of my TC triumph . I shot lots of bullet and sabot combo. The only combo that worked was harvester crushed rib for 44 bullet. My Omega shot most combo well but I shoot Harvester sabot with barnes bullet. I tried several of easy guide combo and no give groups past 50 yards. I spent lots $ money trying to find the right load for triumph.


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## Tritonman

Harry I’m looking to change as well. Pencil hole in pencil hole out. Hardly any blood. No expansion at all. 250 grain sst powered by 100 grains of triple7. Shot my deer this year at 52 yards. Thank God she stayed in the field and expired. Walked from were she laid back to were I shot her and just had specks for 20 yards. The crew asked me why I was looking so hard for blood when she was laying right there. Told them there’s a story to be told about these ssts. Hit her shoulder broadside. 
Later that afternoon my son using the same set up also shot a doe broadside at 40 yards. He immediately said it was a great shot even seen blood building on her side. Ran did a big u turn and he watched her run into the woods. Ran at least 200 yards before entering the woods. Gave her 40 minutes. We immediately went to where she entered the woods. Real nice pink spray and seen where she rubbed trees for 50 yards then nothing. I was beside myself. Knew she was dead but where? So it was time to mark last blood. Up till then she painted a nice blood trail. The three of us made circles and there she laid another 70 yards. Five yards from where she laid was blood again. Don’t know if the lungs plugged the holes. I have no idea but there where perfect holes through both lungs. No expansion after hitting ribs. I’m not going to keep on doing this. 
So I’ll be testing these loads that you guys are talking about. Too bad I couldn’t push a rage broadhead down the muzzle!! Great information from you experienced muzzles!!


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## Lundy

My son and I have shot bunches and bunches of deer with Barnes expander bullets and have never lost one, even with less than ideal shot placements. Perfect shots, shoulder shots, stem to stern shots, all dead quickly. I have always just shot their expanders, not the boat tails and plastic tips for better BC. Many guys shoot those and like them. I just have always shot the flat based hollowpoint since the mid 90's. If you are shooting a boat tail design and having accuracy issues from your gun try a flat base version. Every gun is different but I have no MZ's that don't all shoot the Barnes very well.

You spend of bunch of money on guns, stands, cameras, etc, etc and a bunch of time in the woods to get the shot opportunity. I am going to use what I know will deliver the results I want when the opportunity finally arrives. Not all bullets are created equal in terminal performance where it all counts. Drives me crazy when I hear someone say the shoot a certain bullet primarily because it loads easy. I have never killed even one deer while loading my gun.

To each his own.


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## bobk

Lundy, I agree don't fix what's not broken. Just some info on the PR bullets as far a shoulder shots. Not a problem one bit. The last 2 deer were shoulder shot and neither of them left the logging trail.


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> Tight fitting bores are not uncommon any more than loose fitting bores are. Both can effect accuracy and a tight fitting bore makes reloading very unpleasant.
> 
> You can typically solve that issue just by using a sabot that better fits your bore. With your tight fitting bore the HPH-24 will probably solve all of your problems no matter what bullet you select. It is 2 thousands smaller in diameter. My buddy has an OMEGA and cussed it like crazy while loading. I purchased the smaller diameter sabots for him to try and he has been smiling ever since.
> 
> http://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/
> 
> The PR bullets are nice bullets, I have killed some deer with them. The primary reason I switched back to Barnes over them is in the event of a poorly placed shot into a shoulder I know how the Barnes copper perform, I'm not sure about the PR bullets. I just decided not to try and fix something that wasn't broken.


This is spot on and some very wise info.
And the mmpsabots.com website is a great source for finding the right sabot for a tailored load. Have talked to their customer service a couple times over the years when trying to accomplish something specific with a load and they have been very helpful.

Like Lundy having multiple inlines, I currently have four. 
The only one I have found that will shoot as accurate as I expect it to shoot and get proper projectile performance out of the bullet with 'pre-packaged' rounds/sabot and projectile boat together, is the Pro Hunter. 
The other three inlines are all tailored combos of projectiles/sabots that have been purchased separately and have been rounds worked up by trial and error over many years. The end result is usually bags of left over various sabots. Fortunately, I have an outlet for mine as a buddy of mine casts various different kinds/dia.'s of 45cal lead bullets and sends samples to me to 'test drive' for him which is always a lot of fun. 
But IMO, working up the best possible load is just part of the fun of using front stuffers.


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## Lundy

Bob, I like PR bullets very much I still have a bunch of the 260 gr. I may make you a deal on them since I have basically quit deer hunting. Or I was thinking maybe Tom could field test them but that would require hitting the deer to test the bullet so that may not work

PS, we never lost a deer shot with a PR bullet either. One of the reasons I didn't use them more is they do not work at smokeless velocities well.


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> Bob, I like PR bullets very much I still have a bunch of the 260 gr. I may make you a deal on them since I have basically quit deer hunting. Or I was thinking maybe Tom could field test them but that would require hitting the deer to test the bullet so that may not work
> 
> PS, we never lost a deer shot with a PR bullet either. One of the reasons I didn't use them more is they do not work at smokeless velocities well.



Even when the topic isn't on EZ, he can't get a break.


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## CFIden

I have found the 295 grain Power Belts to be very effective. Big blood trails and short tracks.


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## Tritonman

I’m just looking for a sabot that’s going to open up and hold a good group. I went to PR website and I’ll order some. Currently I have the encore omega and triumphs. On several deer I just hold my breath and hope I see them drop. Sadly my son hit, didn’t kill the biggest on camera. Showed up on camera the day after and seen since. Fact of the matter is when he shot it,and I trust his ability,he couldn’t see anything due to smoke but said it was a great shot. We went in found nickel size red blood that trickled down to nothing. I’m thinking knowing the history with these sst it is probably dead. Well we looked for 6 hours and nothing. Luckily it did show up on camera or else I’d still be looking for it. Just need blood!!


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## Harry1959

Another thing about accuracy in general. First shot with a clean bore my omega will be off target. I always shoot once to foul the barrel before hunting. 
My old side lock with real black powder and round ball shoots good with a clean barrel. Actually , the round ball seems to put em down as good or maybe better than other bullets AT CLOSE Range. Aging eyes just don’t work as well with the iron sights.


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## fastwater

Harry1959 said:


> Another thing about accuracy in general. First shot with a clean bore my omega will be off target. I always shoot once to foul the barrel before hunting.
> My old side lock with real black powder and round ball shoots good with a clean barrel. Actually , the round ball seems to put em down as good or maybe better than other bullets AT CLOSE Range. Aging eyes just don’t work as well with the iron sights.


I always zero on a fouled bbl. Even on the rifles I shoot BH out of. In the field, a follow up shot if needed is gonna be on a fouled bbl.
l just shoot a primer off on a clean bbl before shooting either the cap locks or lines and that seems to work for me.


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## halfrack

I use to shoot the shockwaves in my knight. Because they shot great I would hit the same hole a lot from 50 to 100 yds. I did kill a lot of deer with them but saw them all drop within 60 yds. But I would still track them the blood trails were bad . Plus all of them were double lung shots. I also killed a cpl at 150 yds still no blood trail. So I switched to Barnes and never looked back they are expensive but great blood trails. I was using the 250 grain bullet .


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## Lundy

Harry1959 said:


> My omega has a real tight bore and difficult to load even with a clean bore ..


The HPH-24 sabot with whatever bullet you choose will probably solve your problem.


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## buckeyebowman

buckbob said:


> go to www.prbullet.com i started shooting the 200 grain 40 cal. in my 50 cal. cva apex get sub 3/4 in. groups at 100 yds. shot an 8pt. last year at 110 yds. he kicked up hind legs and dropped right there


BINGO! You beat me to it! I stumbled on this website a short while ago and was astounded! What a wealth of info on muzzleloading.

I read an article on there about jacketed bullet performance out of ML's. With the velocities, KE's, and ballistic coefficients of the ammo, many jacketed bullets will not perform on whitetail sized game.

My BIL shoots a Traditions ML that works great with two 50g pellets of 777 under a 250g Powerbelt Accu Tip. I bought a different model Traditions and couldn't get the Powerbelts to group worth a damn! Tried the TC Shockwaves and found I needed the strength of The Hulk to get them down the barrel!

Then I tried the Hornady XTP, 240g hollow point. It gives me nice groups at 100 yds over the same load of powder. Since we're "in season" now, I won't change. But once Spring and Summer come, some experimentation will be going on.

That website has me intrigued. He wants "varmint rifle" accuracy out of his ML's, and has made products to make that possible. I've bought his "Rotating Accuracy Tool" and it's really slick!


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## Lundy

PR makes good bullets no doubt, but they are not the panacea for getting all MZ's to shoot MOA. I have shot them, killed deer with them, they are a very nice bullet.

Bullet BC has little to do with accuracy, a poor BC bullet will still group great just not provide some of the downrange advantages of a higher BC bullet.

As noted not all jacketed bullets are designed to work (controlled expansion)at typical MZ velocities. Some will pencil through other explode like a grenade. Just as the all lead PR bullets won't work from my smokeless MZ's at elevated velocities.

When looking at the velocity charts on the PR site, or any other site for than matter pay close attention to the test barrel length.

Accuracy is nothing more than sabot fit, powder change and barrel twist to stabilize the bullet you are shooting. Some balanced combination of all three will allow any MZ to shoot very well. You may never find that balance shooting pellets. Often to obtain the best performance it will require small changes in the powder load, a few grains at a time.


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## buckeyebowman

Good points, Lundy. Also, the very same points have been raised on the prbullet website, including tighter bore diameters. I guess that might have been why those TC Shockwaves were such a struggle to load! 

As I said, I've found something that works fairly well. I can get 2" groups at 100 yards, so I won't change anything for this season.

My main reason for posting was that the prbullet website has me intrigued. It has me wanting to find out just how accurate I can make my ML! It took quite a bit of experimentation to get where I am, and I love tinkering. Spring and Summer will be the next round. I'm also going to try Blackhorn 209 powder, and look for the best powder measure I can find. Any suggestions?


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## fastwater

buckeyebowman said:


> Good points, Lundy. Also, the very same points have been raised on the prbullet website, including tighter bore diameters. I guess that might have been why those TC Shockwaves were such a struggle to load!
> 
> As I said, I've found something that works fairly well. I can get 2" groups at 100 yards, so I won't change anything for this season.
> 
> My main reason for posting was that the prbullet website has me intrigued. It has me wanting to find out just how accurate I can make my ML! It took quite a bit of experimentation to get where I am, and I love tinkering. Spring and Summer will be the next round. I'm also going to try Blackhorn 209 powder, and look for the best powder measure I can find. Any suggestions?


If you go to BH 209...provided your rifle can shoot it, you won't go back. Just know that you need to use the hotter shotgun primers instead of ml 209 primers. Too don't know what ml you are shooting but it's possible you may have to replace the breech plug to one that has a bigger flash hole as well. Some model ml'ers come with a breech plug capable of using the original breech plug with BH209...some aren't.
At any rate, BH209 is absolutely the best powder I've ever used. Which has included Pyrodex RS, T7,American Pioneer Shockeys Gold, Clean Shot, Goex and probably a few others I can't remember.
It's consistent, have never had a mis-fire even hunting in rain,snow or sleet(if hunting in those conditions, I always use a cut finger off a latex glove over the end of bore) and clean up after shooting is no more than like cleaning a shotgun or rifle. For cleaning, you use Hoppes or other cleaners used for modern powders instead of water based ml loader cleaners. After cleaning, run an oily patch down the bore and your done...same as any modern firearm. No more ml cleaning solvent,bore butters etc.

I can shoot anywhere from 10-15 shots in both the TC and Knight without ever having to swab the bore. That's how clean it burns.
Some may consider the fact that since BH only comes in loose powder and not pellets that they aren't willing to switch from the pellets they are using. My advice to that is that if I want to shoot as accurate as I can from shot to shot, I'm not gonna be using pellets anyway. While pellets may be okay for hitting a paper plate every time at 100's, they aren't measured to tight enough specs. to be a tack drivers at that range...and obviously, the further out, the worse they are. If you shoot pellets, do a little experiment and weigh each one. Most likely you will get a variance between many of them.
And we all know that the secret to accurate shooting, especially in front stuffer...is consistency. Especially in the amount of powder used. And on that note, often times, the powder charge that the rifle wants/likes to shoot its best doesn't equal the combination we can come up with in pellets.

FWIW, here a very nice powder measure made by Pedersoli. Have had one for about 40yrs. Mine only goes to 110gr. but the newer ones goes to 150. The hinged funnel is very nice to have and I like it better then the other models that have the funnel that slide sideways. The funnel is nice especially when filling speed loaders. There is also a nice nipple pick that unscrews out of the end of the calibrated stem. I believe Cabellas has them...


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## Lundy

I use Blackhorn 209 in one of my MZ's that I set up for my Daughter-in-law. In my opinion it is easily the best power available today.

I use a beam type scale to weigh my smokeless loads and my Blackhorn loads.(see below for BH209)

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo.../rcbs-m-mechanical-scale/1979041.uts?slotId=0

*BUT PLEASE READ THE BLACKHORN LOAD DATA PRIOR TO SHOOTING.*
http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209muzzleloaderdata.pdf

They show load data in VOLUMETRIC measure like you would for T7 or Pyrodex. A 100 grain load by volume is only 70 grains of actual weight. If you weigh out 100 grains of BH209 on a scale you could have a very dangerous load in your gun.


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## fastwater

Also, with BH have noticed that when seating projectile, I've had best results seating with just enough pressure so that the projectile just sets on the powder. Very little seating pressure is required.

And if you are shooting a string of many shots, and they have been grouping well, then the group starts spreading out even after you have swabbed the bore, clean the flash channel and flash hole of the breech plug. You're not getting enough instant spark through the channel of the breech plug to ignite the BH like it needs to be lit.


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## Ten Percent-er

I am shooting 70 grains (weighed) = (approx 100 gr volumetric) of Blackhorn 209, with the Harvester crushed rib sabots (black ones) & Harvester's 240 and 260 gr Scorpion PT Gold bullets out of my CVA wolf. One inch groups, sometimes less....load easily into the Wolf....can prob shoot 25 shots without any crud ring or issue reloading like everyone else's expensive Thompson's. Slams whitetail, good controlled expansion, whatta great combo!!!! LOVE my little (inexpensive) CVA wolf... brand new they are $150.... spend another 150 or 200 on a good scope and you will never look back! Trust me


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## Harry1959

I switched to BH 209 about 10 years ago, hadn’t been out long. It’s the only powder that burns clean enough to allow loading of multiple shots with most sabots in my gun. I do have to clean breech plug hole pretty often. 1/8 inch drill bit by hand, dry for TC guns. Going to try scorpion pt gold, federal trophy copper and some Barnes(when I find some).
Some suggest the 40 cal sabots, I already taking my 50 cal down to a 45, I don’t want to go any smaller than that. I guess if I did I’d buy a 45 cal gun.


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## Tim67

Harry1959 said:


> View attachment 250501
> View attachment 250502
> I hunt with a tc omega 110 gr BH 209(equal to about 135 gr pyrodex).
> My gun absolutely loves 300 gr sst/shockwaves. 1 inch groups at 100yds. Any other projectile goes to 3-4 inch groups. Tried everything but Barnes variety, don’t know who sells them.
> The last deer I shot with one of the sst was great bullet placement(see pics). Exit hole on deers right side. That deer took a long time to die, went over 300 yards(probably 400)
> and left a sparse blood trail at times. He was still able to run 90 minutes after the pictured double lung shot. The other deer I shot with 300 gr sst was took out both shoulders and died fast. I do however like shoulder roasts.
> Anyone else ever have issues with the sst out of a muzzleloader, or maybe it was just a freakishly tough deer? I have been thinking about trying more loads.


Harry I too have a T/C Omega, been having lot of consistancy @ 100 yards with Hornady jacketed hollow points and Federal premium copper. Have a heck of a time even loading shockwaves after cleaning let alone after a few shots. Just my 2 cents worth. Tim67


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Harry I too have a T/C Omega, been having lot of consistancy @ 100 yards with Hornady jacketed hollow points and Federal premium copper. Have a heck of a time even loading shockwaves after cleaning let alone after a few shots. Just my 2 cents worth. Tim67


As has been said 'it's all in the sabot' ...and they are all not equal in thickness.
The bullet in the yellow tipped Shockwaves in the same bullet as the Hornady SST. Hornady makes and supplies these bullets for TC for their Shockwave's. TC just puts them in their packaging and markets them as TC Shockwave's. 

The best thing about shooting a 45 or 40 cal. projectiles out of a 50barrel is we can almost always find the perfect sabot to take up the extra room between side of bullet and barrel. And often, the pre-packaged combos(bullet/sabot sold together) though are convenient to just grab off the store shelves, do not fit the best in our particular barrel. 
But we can tailor a bullet and sabot combo to a fit that gives us what our rifle wants to shoot the best. 
Once we find that 'perfect' combo by trying different sabot's with our choice of bullet, we can buy the projectiles by themselves and our sabot's by themselves. 
As someone posted before MMP has an assortment of all kinds/sizes of sabot's we can try. Harvester is another.
So if you like the performance of a bullet on game, but it loads too hard or easy in your rifle, give MMP or Harvester a call and try different sabot's with your bullet.


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## Harry1959

Went to the range again last week. Only shot at 50 yards. As expected, the 300 gr sst with 110 gr blackhorn 209 shot 1 inch groups. As said before I’d like to change bullets.
Add federal trophy copper and scorpion pt gold with harvester crush rib sabots to the long list of bullets that this tc omega does not like, 3-4 inch groups at 50 yards. Oh also had some 240 gr txp with supplied sabots that **** poorly as well.
I also always start out with 100 gr powder. In the old days with round balls I’d start out at 60 gr and work my way up. However I’d probably stick with the sst rather than a different bullet with much less than 100 gr Of powder.
I finally found some 290 gr Barnes spitfire ez and also bought a bag of crush ribbed 50/45 cal sabots. Going to try some different combinations and Barnes tomorrow.
I believe all my projectiles are .45 cal.....except the xtp are 44 cal. I assume that I can’t use the 44 cal lead in the 50/45 cal sabots? I’ve never put my own bullets together, but I’m trying the things you guys suggested.
Also, I use a led sled with no extra weight. On the days I’ve got 1-2 inch 100 yard groups with the sst/shockwaves it’s been off sandbags and no led sled. Anyone that uses a led sled have opinion on accuracy with it?


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## Harry1959

Ya know after thinking it and the fact that bh209 only requires 120 gr for max loads, maybe I should start out at 90 grains(volume not actual wt)?


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## buckeyebowman

Yeah! This is what I was after! Just a load of info. I have a Traditions Pursuit Pro, and my buddy just bought a Traditions Striker Fire. 

My buddy called Traditions with some questions. They advised him that most of their best shooters, and they've been compiling data for quite a while, shoot BH 209 and can go easily 15 shots between bore swabs because it fouls so little! 

As far as primers go, he tried the Win 777 primers supposedly made for MLs! He couldn't get them out of the breech plug with his fingers after firing a round! Had to use a screwdriver or pliers. I told him to go get some regular shotgun 209 primers. He did. Got some CCI's, and they work fine.


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## Lundy

Winchester 209A or CCI's work well for most guns


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## Harry1959

Bh209 site says to use only shotshell primers, that they are hotter than ML primers. Winchester has given good ignition for me as well


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## fastwater

Harry1959 said:


> Bh209 site says to use only shotshell primers, that they are hotter than ML primers. Winchester has given good ignition for me as well


Yep! It's best to use the hotter shots shell primer over the more mild m/l primer when using BH.
Harry, I believe earlier in this thread you expressed the desire to start weighing your loads instead of measuring by volume. The load data sheet posted from BH gives measurements in increments of 20.
If you want to weigh BH in increments not shown in the chart, say 105grns by volume, just multiply 105grns(volume) X .7 to get the weight measurement equal to 105grns. volume.
I.E. 105grns(volume) X .7 = 73.5grns(weighed), 110grns(volume) X .7 = 77grns(weighed) etc.
Like you, when working up a load I like to do increments of five grns until I hit on a charge my rifle likes for that load.

Have also experienced that sometimes some bullet weights/designs coupled with certain sabot's, especially those much over 250grn. sometimes require a heavier charge than others to get that bullets optimum performance. Certain bullet/sabot combos just tend to be more accurate being pushed faster than others.

Seems what you are doing, in essence, is starting from scratch looking for a totally different load. So, regardless of suggestions here on what everyone shoots(though it's a good starting point) it may be a time consuming ordeal with many trips to the range to find what your rifle likes best. In other words, some of the suggested bullet/sabot combo suggested here may work great in your rifle and get the terminal affects you are looking for but you'll have to find the powder charge your rifle likes for that combo. Or maybe a suggested bullet with a different sabot and powder charge would work better for you. As you probably know, sometimes even a five grain powder charge can be the difference between 3/4" group and a 2" group.
Since finding your right combo may take a little time, you may consider sticking with what you had for this m/l season shooting high shoulder shots this year and work up a load over the summer for next year using some of the bullets suggested with different sabot's and charges.
Here's a couple good reads on inline m/l bullets.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_expander_bullets.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/best_muzzleloading_bullet.htm


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## Harry1959

Appreciate the input, yes fastwater I was close to sticking with the 300gr sst for this year
But today, I shot the blue Barnes spitfire 290 gr I did have to back it down to 90 gr bh 209. 2 Of 3 bullets touching at 50 yards.3rd bullet 1/2 higher.Groups about 1 1/2 above aiming point.
100 yard group was the same, 2of 3 touching and 3rd about an inch higher. Again the group was about 1 1/2 inch above aiming point, which kind of surprised me. I assume the trajectory must still be on the rise at 50-75 yards. I shot once at 25 yards and it was dead on. I’m very happy with the Barnes and sabot that come with them. A couple of you said I’d like them. Actually Lundy said it twice. Thanks it’s very nice to have friends on here who actually develop the right load for their ML.
A lot of guys put 2 or 3 pellets in, drop in a Powerbelt or shockwave, get 2-4inch 50 yard groups and call it good enough, without ever knowing what their guns can really achieve.


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## fastwater

Harry1959 said:


> Appreciate the input, yes fastwater I was close to sticking with the 300gr sst for this year
> But today, I shot the blue Barnes spitfire 290 gr I did have to back it down to 90 gr bh 209. 2 Of 3 bullets touching at 50 yards.3rd bullet 1/2 higher.Groups about 1 1/2 above aiming point.
> 100 yard group was the same, 2of 3 touching and 3rd about an inch higher. Again the group was about 1 1/2 inch above aiming point, which kind of surprised me. I assume the trajectory must still be on the rise at 50-75 yards. I shot once at 25 yards and it was dead on. I’m very happy with the Barnes and sabot that come with them. A couple of you said I’d like them. Actually Lundy said it twice. Thanks


That's GREAT!
Very Glad that combo works well for you. Which Spitfire bullet did you choose? The MZ, TMZ or TEZ?
Hopefully you will get good expansion with them on broadside heart lung shots at various distances as well as terminal effects with shoulder shots as well. I believe Midway USA is having a clearance sale on the TMZ bullet/sabot combo at a good savings. You may want to check them out. Think the price was about $14 for the Barnes Spitfire 290grn with blue tip and the supplied blue sabot.

And I'll thank Lundy and the others as well for the Barnes bullet/sabot recommendation to try just in case my present load ever fails me or I decide to change.
Also, if you get the opportunity to bag a deer with that round, please report back with results. Especially if it's a broadside, heart/lung shot.


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## Harry1959

They were blue tip and blue sabot, spitfire T EZ. Supposed to be essy loading, but still fit my gun tight


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## fastwater

Harry1959 said:


> They were blue tip and blue sabot, spitfire T EZ. Supposed to be essy loading, but still fit my gun tight


Okay Thanks!
In one of the articles I posted, I believe Randy Wakeman made a special reference of using the T-EZ's in the TC since TC bbl's tend to be on the tight side. 
I forgot to mention earlier in the above post when telling ya about the clearance sale at Midway on those bullets that it was $14 for *15rds*.


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## Harry1959

Yea, after reading your post I looked the spitfires up st midway, add $5 to ship and ya save s little.
Just came back from Walmart in Lebanon. blackhorn 209 1/2 price at $19.99. They had been marking it down at the Beavercreek(Dayton) store too. So I bet all the wm stores have it 1/2 price. Yellow 225 shockwaves were $5 pack, if anybody used em.


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## ErieGoldSportfishing

Great discussion here on this thread. For whatever it's worth I have gun hunted exclusively with my Pro Hunter for the last 15 years. I shot TC shockwave 250 grain for a lot of those years and was never real impressed with the performance after impact. Tack drivers for sure but not a lot of knock down power. I tried several different bullets a couple years ago and found the Hornady FPB 300 gr. was agreeable with my gun. I'm giving up the 1" groups I got with the shockwaves but still get 1.5" groups and gained one of the hardest hitting bullets for a .50 cal I've seen so far. They are a full .50 copper jacket hollow point with a ballistic tip and no sabot. They only take 20 lbs pressure to push them down the bore. I've taken several deer with this bullet and none have gone more than 40 yds.


----------



## fastwater

Harry1959 said:


> Yea, after reading your post I looked the spitfires up st midway, add $5 to ship and ya save s little.
> Just came back from Walmart in Lebanon. blackhorn 209 1/2 price at $19.99. They had been marking it down at the Beavercreek(Dayton) store too. So I bet all the wm stores have it 1/2 price. Yellow 225 shockwaves were $5 pack, if anybody used em.


That's a good deal on BH 209. May have to pick up another jug at that price.
And as long as it's kept dry, has a long shelf life as well.
Just started on a newly opened jug that's been on the shelf for two years. Hitting dead center at 100yds with no sign in loss of strength. Shot out to 150yds using BDC scope, hitting same as the previous jug I was using.


----------



## buckeyebowman

Yes, very good info. FWIW, I use the Win 209 shot shell primers to good effect. I want to transition to BH209 powder from T7 pellets in order to fine tune the load. 

Fastwater, thanks for the tip about the Pedersoli powder measure. Mine leaves much to be desired as far as precise measurements are concerned. 

I understood that powder measure was volumetric, but it's nice to have the conversion to actual weight since I have a digital scale that is quite accurate. 

It's kind of funny, but this was mentioned on the prbullet website. Seems that a guy was weighing out 150 grains of powder, which is over 200 grains volumetric! Cecil Epp (owner of prbullet) wrote that he was glad the guy's gun survived the ordeal, but his scope crapped out after about 6 shots! I can't imagine what shooting that rifle must have been like! 

My gun is rated to shoot 150g, but I have no desire to do so! But, some people want to shoot the max amount of powder thinking that it automatically improves performance! These people remind me of some "wildcat" reloaders, who put the max amount of the fastest burning powder with the lightest bullet that will fit the case and think they've invented the laser! 

It's amazing what you can see going to the range!


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## Harry1959

Lol bowman yes the public rifle range and some people. I went last week and today. Next week I m gonna leave my guns at home and just bring some popcorn


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## fastwater

Watched a young guy and his girl come into Ohio Valley in Lancaster to shoot. They set up in a lane next to me. He pulled out a S&W 500 and commences to tell his woman all about this revolver and that it's the most powerful handgun in the world...yada...dada...da.
He loads up, fires a few rounds then turns to look at his woman to make sure she was getting all giddy inside.
As I was packing my stuff up, I heard her saying to him how loud it was and about shooting it real fast like they did in the movies.
Well...Wyatt Earp tried all that rapid fire business but only managed to get through a triple tap when he put the revolver down, shook his hand and had blood dripping from the end of his fingers. Seems the revolver shifted in his hands and the trigger guard barked his knuckle pretty good taking a chunk of meat out.
They were searching for band aids when I left.


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## buckeyebowman

At my club's rifle range one time, there was this kid (young man) blasting away with a muzzleloader. I have no idea how much powder he was putting down the barrel, but it had to be 150 at least! Oh, the flame and the smoke! This thing was going off like a cannon, and it was kicking the living crap out of him!

To top it off, when he'd load he'd start a bullet, and being unable to get it down the barrel by hand, he'd whack away at the ramrod with a big wooden mallet to seat the bullet on the powder! 

God only knows what kind of "accuracy" he achieved by doing this! 

Talked with my buddy the other day who told me about the time he, on a whim or by mistake, put 110 grains of FFg down the bore of his .45 Kentucky long rifle. Said it about knocked him on his butt! He throttled back to 80 grains real quick!


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## ErieIslander

245 grain power belts w/3 Tripple 7 pellets out of my T/C Omega. Deadly accurate, reliable and easy cleaning.


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## fastwater

The only rifle I ever had that was accurate with the PB is my Rem. 700 m/l. And those were the 245grn Aerotips. Rifle didn't care for other weight PB's.
But I found two things when shooting them out of that rifle. If I pushed the bullet with much more than 100grns Pyrodex my groups started opening up and I'd have more flyers. Long as I stayed at about 95grns. powder, that rifle is a tack driver with them out to about 125yds. Also, found that with charges in excess of about 100 grns. of powder, the bullet had more of a tendency to fragment.

Now here's the kicker...before CVA acquired the Powerbelt bullet patent from a company called Big Bore Express, Big Bore Express made the original PB and that round was called the Black Belt. It was the exact configuration as the current hollow point PB only it was an all lead projectile and only offered in much bigger grn. weight bullets with the lightest being 295grn. and going to 444grn in 50 cal.
Here's the kicker in my Rem 700. I could shoot the 295grn clear up to the 444grn. all lead Black Belt with a max load of 120 grn Pyrodex and that was probably the best load I ever shot out of that rifle with the 295grn being super accurate....no flyers and groups would stay tight with the higher powder charge. But I can only shoot the 245grn Powerbelt with a powder charge of no more than 95grns of powder.
Now the cups on the PB versus the BB seems to be made out of different material. The Black Belt cups seemed to be a bit softer or more flexible than the Powerbelts. Also, the Black Belt being all lead, maybe the rifling was able to dig into the softer lead better being able to make that bullet better stabilized. And I must add that the all lead Black Belt hit deer with a tremendous thump and held together extremely well.

At any rate, here is a pic of the 'original' Black Belt from Big Bore Express before CVA bought the patent and started their changing:


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## Lundy

The cup design of a Powerbelt just isn't very efficient. Compare the 250 gr bullets of others listed to the 245 powerbelt at the same powder charge and it becomes pretty obvious. The blow by reduces transferred energy. That is also a contributing factor to reduced accuracy as you increase the powder charge. I realize some of the heavier gr weight versions hold together better but the 245 is something that should never be shot at a deer in my opinion.

http://alcambronne.com/2011/08/03/what-your-butcher-knows-bullets-for-deer/
All copper bullets do not break apart, penetrate better and almost always provide an exit hole

A lot of guys love them and they do kill a bunch of deer every year but to me personally they have one and only one positive attribute, they load easily. 

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209muzzleloaderdata.pdf


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## Lundy

When you are bored sometime just perform a Google search , "Powerbelt failures" Be prepared to d a bunch of reading. Then perform that same type search for Barnes Expander muzzleloader bullets or just about any other muzzleloader bullet and see the difference.

I have first had experience with a 245 Powerbelt failure on a deer that was shot on the farm I hunted from close range. I have pictures on trail cam of the resulting wound. No one should ever do that to a deer just because the bullet loads easily.


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## fastwater

I don't promote the use of PB's on deer either. Hope my post did not sound as I was implying such. Like the Hornady SST and non-bonded Shockwave's, I've researched plenty on the PB not holding together. Especially with higher charges. They may be accurate out of certain rifles but a good bullet for hunting has to perform better then just in the accuracy department.

Today, theres just too many other projectiles on the market that weren't available years ago that load just as easy, are just as accurate and have better terminal performance on game than the PB's. But I did like the all lead Black Belt bullet and they did their job well for the most part as far as entrance, expansion and exit holes. But even with those, today, projectiles have advanced so much further.
If I ever go back to shooting my Rem 700, I will surely work up a load with some of the better made projectiles that are out today.
PS., Lundy, still gonna get that ignition modification done to the 700 I talked to you about a couple years ago. Think I'll put that on the near future list so I can play with it this summer. Will surely try some Barnes T-EZ's out of it.


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## buckeyebowman

I noticed that myself, even though I was new to muzzle loading. Seemed like the PB's slid down the barrel real easy! And I was all over the map with them. 

I guess every gun likes it's own load. I had a Rem Mod 700ADL in .243 Win. Despite being a Rem gun, it does not like Rem ammo! I couldn't get them to group worth a crap. 

Then I started thinking. The .243 is a Win caliber, so let's try some Win ammo. Next thing you know I have a tack driver! I've shot through the same hole many times!


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## fastwater

Funny you mention that buckeye. My old BDL 243 likes Winchester ammo better then Rem ammo as well. Far as that goes, so does the Rem 270.


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## Muddy

Well, it's time to upgrade today. I have been shooting my CVA Optima with two 50 grain pyrodex pellets, Winchester primers, and Hornady SST's for quite awhile. I have killed a bunch of deer with this set up, and it is accurate. The terminal ballistics were never that great though. This thread got the wheels turning in my head. I went out and bought a BH 209 breech plug, CCI magnum 209 primers, a can of Blackhorn, Barnes 250 grain expanders, BH powder tubes, new cleaning brushes, and a new powder measure. Today I am going to go out back and start shooting it in. I preloaded 8 charges last night. I'm starting with 95 grains by volume.


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## Muddy

I have always used a brass powder measure and 65 grains of powder with my Hawkens rifle. My brass measure is seized up at 65 grains and won't budge. I saw this clear Thompson powder measure at Cabelas and decided to try it out. I really like the clear plastic.


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## Muddy

I was surprised by the design of the BH 209 breech plug(right) vs the standard breech plug(left). The BH 209 breech plug will be packed with powder due to the open design. I thought that the only difference would be the a small increase in the size of the flash hole, not a big open cavity that will be packed with loose powder. The open cavity extends almost half the length of the breech plug.


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## Harry1959

Be sure to read through the info at Blackhorn209.com. Also keep in mind that BH 209 provides about 25% more energy than the same amount of pyrodex or Black powder(by volume) so you would multiply your 95 gr(bh209)x 1.25 = 118.75 gr (pyrodex equivalent)
120 gr bh209 is maximum charge and equal to 150 gr pyrodex, these are all by volume with a measure and NOT actual weight. 
The Barnes spitfire I just switched to shoots great with 90 gr Bh 209, But when I bumped it up to 100 grains the groups opened up.(will try 95gr next time out)And the 90 gr still provides plenty of energy to at least 125 yards. When shooting a slug or muzzleloader a whole lot can go wrong at longer distances such as wind drift and miscalculation of yardage.


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## Muddy

The CVA BH breech plug was too long. The breech would close, but I could not cock the hammer. I hated to modify it, but I had no choice. I tried the regular breech plug and had problems with inconsistent ignition. I gently filed the rear face of the breech plug until everything functioned as it should. I didn't have to take off much. I didn't get it dialed in all the way yet, but I'm getting consistent groups. It started snowing so I packed it up. I'll pick it back up next weekend.


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## buckeyebowman

Well, we still have ML season coming up, and I'm decent with my current load at 100 yds, so I'm not going to make any changes until Spring. Then I will start the experimentation. 

Yes, the pellets are convenient but something occurred to me. How do they get them to stick together? Implies an adhesive of some sort. You can't just press black powder together into pellets and have them stay that way. 

A little research found an article that claimed that 2 - 50 grain pellets amount to about 80 grains of actual black powder. Whether true or not I figure that the adhesive has to add to barrel fouling. 

So, I'll be making some changes. I started out measuring loose powder, so I'm no stranger to it.


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## T-180

Great info guys, keep it coming !!! Just received a CVA Optima V2 for Christmas & will begin the process of dialing it in & deciding loads this week. I have used pellets & powerbelts in my Traditions el cheapo ML with decent results, but really want to try the BH in my new rifle. Lots to learn, that's what makes it so fun.


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## fastwater

Hey buckeye...just for giggles, get your pellets out and weigh them individually. Unless pellet manufacturers have tightened their specs over the years, those pellets most likely won't be very consistent.



T-180 said:


> Great info guys, keep it coming !!! Just received a CVA Optima V2 for Christmas & will begin the process of dialing it in & deciding loads this week. I have used pellets & powerbelts in my Traditions el cheapo ML with decent results, *but really want to try the BH in my new rifle. Lots to learn, that's what makes it so fun*.


Have never met anyone that has switched to BH that ever went back to anything else. The positive aspects of BH such as cleanliness(no crud ring especially), consistency, shelf life etc., just outshines the fact that it doesn't come in pellet form. Just make sure when you clean your rifle after using BH, you use cleaners suited for modern powder.
And yes, the learning/ experimenting process with a ml is the fun part.


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## Muddy

Is there anything wrong with using isopropyl alcohol to clean up BH? It seemed to work fine for me.


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## fastwater

Muddy said:


> Is there anything wrong with using isopropyl alcohol to clean up BH? It seemed to work fine for me.


I've used 91 percent alcohol on guns as a degreaser/cosmoline remover before but never as a bore cleaner for powder fouling in the barrel. So I can't comment on using it for an actual bore cleaner. Don't think I'd use the 70 percent stuff due to the high water content in it.
At any rate, wherever you use alcohol on your rifle, make sure and lube with an oil when done as the alcohol is a good degreaser.


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## Lundy

http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/

#12


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## fastwater

Talking about 'cleaning' sabot'ed m/l'ers...does anyone ever use cleaning products such as RGS, Shooters Choice, Breakfree, Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber etc. that are designed to target plastic removal?
I have never had an issue with plastic buildup in any of my m/l bores but just for my own piece of mind, about once a year, I'll usually do a deep clean using either RGS or Gun Scrubber.


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## buckeyebowman

I also do a deep clean after every ML season before I put the gun away for a while. With the removable breech plugs on the modern ML's you can look through the barrel. If it's shining like a mirror, I'm happy! Then I'll just usually run a couple of patches with Bore Butter or something to guard against rust. ML barrels will rust like crazy if you let them! 

And fastwater, I got my scale and pellets out and did some weighing. The Pyrodex 777 pellets were very consistent, most of them coming in at 30gn by weight for a 50gn volumetric pellet. The only oddball I found was one pellet that weighed 32gn. 

I also weighed my Hornady XTP's that are supposed to weigh 240gn. And that's exactly what all of them weighed. Not a grain off in either direction! I like that kind of precision. 

What this little experiment tells me is that the conversion rate from volumetric measure to grain weight measure is 60%. 100gn volumetric is 60gn by weight. This is good to know. 

When I switch to BH 209 I'll now know that if I want to start with 90gn volumetric, I can weigh out 54gn. 80gn volumetric, 48gn by weight. 

It also just occurred to me that this is a great way to check out the accuracy of your powder measure.


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## fastwater

It's been many years since I've shot pellets. Your consistent weights means they have surely tightened weight consistency up on them.
That's good.
When they first came out, neither Pyrodex nor 777 pellets used to be consistent at all. You'd be lucky to get two pellets in a whole box to weigh the same. 

Also, have never weighed pellets against loose powder to see if say a 50grn pellet weighed the same as 50grn loose. Seems to me there may be a few additives in the pellets to make them stick together making them differ in weight from same grn amount of loose. That would be interesting to find out.

When you switch to BH and want to shoot 90grns (volume) you will want to weigh out 63gn ( by weight).
80grn volume would be equal to 56grn. by weight.

The formula for weighing out BH from volume is...grn.volume X .7 = grn. weight.


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## buckeyebowman

Interesting! The .7 ratio between grain weight and measure is what I originally thought. Then, I weigh 50gn pellets and get 30gn in weight! Hmmmm. Something seems to be off here! Thought I'd get 35. Of course, there's no way to prove that a 50gr pellet is that unless you grind it up and put it in a powder measure!

Earlier today I was looking on Cabela's website for a good powder measure, and read the reviews on a TC model. The very first review claimed the measure was wrong! That it was measuring out too much powder, about 7gn by weight. The reviewer checked after measuring out some loads for a friend who then claimed they were too hot! The reviewer also quote the .7 ratio.

How the Hell are you supposed to get the max accuracy when you can't even trust the powder measure! I was actually looking for that Pedersoli measure, but the thing turned out to be 30 bucks! Turns out that BH 209 sells a 6 pack of little test tube looking things with caps for $9.99. Since it's made for BH 209 you would hope that it is accurate.

And as accurate as my electronic digital scale is, it's not feasible for every situation, but I suppose I can plan around it. I think this will require me to keep a journal, but that's what I did when monkeying with my compound bow's center shot and nock height when getting my field points and broad heads to hit the same spot.

Took quite a few sessions and a lot of note taking, but I got it done!


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## fastwater

Far as weighing BH 209 check out #5 in this FAQ directly from BH:
http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/

While the equation for BH for weight is multiplying grn in volume X .7
the equation for Triple 7 (loose powder, don't know about pellets) for weight is multiplying grn in volume X .777
So 50grns loose T7 by volume should be 38.85grns in weight.
100grns loose T7 powder by volume ='s 77.7grns by weight...hence the name Triple7.

When I weigh powder when I'm loading, I use the RCBS scale that came with my turret loader. I have a couple old jars of T7 but no pellets. If I had some pellets, I could weigh loose compared to pellet and my guess is they won't weigh the same.

Yes, the Pedersoli powder measure is $30 but the are built well and will most likely last you a lifetime. I've had mine for many,many years.
As far as getting an exact(or close to) the same powder charge every time, you won't do that with any volume measuring device I'm aware of. Someone may know of one and if so...chime in. The only way I know to get as close to the same is a decent set of scales and weigh each load.
If I were shooting competitively, I'd weigh every load. I don't when plinking or measuring hunting loads and have never had an issue out to 200' getting good results for M.O.D accuracy.
I currently shoot a powder charge out of the Encore of 110grns (V) BH.
If I wanted to take the time and get the scales out for my hunting loads, I'd get my speed loaders out, weigh out 77grns per speed loader, cap loader and call it a day.

Oh yea, you probably know this already but if not, here's a tip. If you load speed loaders and some of the powder granules sticks to the wall of your speed loader when you pour powder into your barrel, take a clothes dryer sheet, stick it down your empty speed loader and rub it
around the inside walls. Granules of powder will no longer stick to your speed loader.


----------



## Muddy

I spent an hour or so shooting today. I'm dialed in with 95 grains of BH and 250 grain Barnes Expanders. I will probably shoot again tomorrow. It's really nice to be able to still see your target after squeezing the trigger. BH has very little smoke.


----------



## doegirl

Ill


----------



## doegirl

doegirl said:


> Ill


Hit the reply button a bit too fast.
I'm going to try 200 grain Shockwaves with 56 grains (weighed) BH209 out of my Savage MLII. I'm a good shot but an absolute recoil wuss. I rarely get a shot past 100yds where I hunt, more like 50-60yds. If I connect I'll report back.


----------



## buckeyebowman

doegirl said:


> Ill


I thought you might be down with the flu, just like me!

Interesting stuff fastwater. Like I said before, I figure that some percentage of those pellets has to be an adhesive to get them to stick together. Since that wouldn't be present in loose powder, one could expect a weight difference.

I think that's a good point about weighing every round. Reminds me of an article I read years ago about military snipers and marksmen. The kind of shooters who would compete in the 1,000 yard shoots at Camp Perry. They built every single round they shot, and they weighed every powder charge!

There's no way volumetric can be as accurate as grain weight!

That said, I can get three 6packs of BH 209 speed loaders for the same price as a Pedersoli volumetric. I already own a very accurate digital scale, so why not go that way. I should have the load figured out before going hunting. If not, I wouldn't go hunting! That's what the bench is for.


----------



## fastwater

buckeyebowman said:


> I thought you might be down with the flu, just like me!
> 
> Interesting stuff fastwater. Like I said before, I figure that some percentage of those pellets has to be an adhesive to get them to stick together. Since that wouldn't be present in loose powder, one could expect a weight difference.
> 
> I think that's a good point about weighing every round. Reminds me of an article I read years ago about military snipers and marksmen. The kind of shooters who would compete in the 1,000 yard shoots at Camp Perry. They built every single round they shot, and they weighed every powder charge!
> 
> There's no way volumetric can be as accurate as grain weight!
> 
> That said, I can get three 6packs of BH 209 speed loaders for the same price as a Pedersoli volumetric. I already own a very accurate digital scale, so why not go that way. I should have the load figured out before going hunting. If not, I wouldn't go hunting! That's what the bench is for.


Long before the latest invention of speed loaders(or inlines)we made our own speed loaders just for our BP charges.
We took 1/2" thick walled plastic tubing using corks for stoppers on both ends. Since we shot BP competitively somewhere every weekend back then we weighed our charges out and the scales always set out in the basement. Some shot real BP matches in which you could only use real BP. Then there was the BP sub. matches or the open powder matches? That's when you had to start learning that all BP substitutes weigh out lighter than real BP. And that different BP substitutes don't all weigh out the same. 
If a guy shot different type matches, we would weigh the correct amount of each specific powder for the loads and Mark the speed loaders as to the contents. That way, come match day, powder was pre-measured and marked for whatever shoots we were involved in that weekend. Used to have a chart that showed the volume to weight scale of most of the popular BP subs. that were made back then. Probably still it packed away somewhere around here. Since then, there have been many bp subs, added to the list. Too, there were no pellets then either.
At any rate, since we were used to measuring out our charges and had our home made speed loaders for that, we would utilize those same plastic tubes and weigh out our hunting loads for our hunting trips.
If I loaded modern cartridges more like I used to and scales were left out, most likely I'd weigh my BP charges out still today. A couple old BP pals and I have re-acquainted and have been talking about getting together and doing some long range BP shooting this summer. Suppose the scales will come out then.

Here is an interesting read on weighing out BP:
http://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/the-most-accurate-way-of-measuring-your-powder-charges/

Note the part about moisture from open containers absorbing in BP increasing weight in the same volume. Since most all powders will absorb moisture(some less than others... and I've found BH to absorb less than most) we should obviously keep our containers of BP closed and in a dry environment as much as possible. 

FWIW, if I'm gonna go out for a days shooting, I never take my large jug of powder with me. Always pour what I think I'm gonna use that day in a different jug and take it. That way, I am not continually opening the main jug while shooting giving more of a chance for more moisture to absorb in it. A habit gotten into years ago shooting real PB and have always done with the subs. as well.


----------



## lawrence1

doegirl said:


> Hit the reply button a bit too fast.
> I'm going to try 200 grain Shockwaves with 56 grains (weighed) BH209 out of my Savage MLII. I'm a good shot but an absolute recoil wuss. I rarely get a shot past 100yds where I hunt, more like 50-60yds. If I connect I'll report back.


You probably heard about this;

http://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-w...ploding-rifle-leaves-trail-of-injured-hunters


----------



## fastwater

lawrence1 said:


> You probably heard about this;
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-w...ploding-rifle-leaves-trail-of-injured-hunters


Wow lawrence1! 
Did not know about the Savage 10 ML II exploding issues.
Thanks for posting.


----------



## lawrence1

fastwater said:


> Wow lawrence1!
> Did not know about the Savage 10 ML II exploding issues.
> Thanks for posting.


She already posted she's not using smokeless powder, it was just meant as a heads up.


----------



## fastwater

lawrence1 said:


> She already posted she's not using smokeless powder, it was just meant as a heads up.


Cool!
Again, thanks for posting that.


----------



## Lundy

I own 3 Savage MZ's , 1 is a stock 50 cal, the other 2 have custom Pacnor 45 cal barrels in them. I am very familar with a few of the guns that have "blown up"

I think the reason Savage quit offering the gun had little to do with the safety of the gun and much more to do with education the hunting public on how to safely use the gun. There was a very specific list of approved powders and load recommendations. Pretty obvious that there is a lot of operator error that is compounded with using smokeless.

If someone dumps 100 gr or god forbid 150 gr of smokeless down his barrel like he would T7 or Pyrodex he may have an issue.

Do a youyube search for Muzzleloader blows up. There are a lot to look at. None of them are Savage by the way but I wouldn't expect to see any. It is a numbers game there are probably many, many thousands of none smokless MZ's to every one smokless gun and certainly an equal ratio of blow-ups


----------



## Lundy

After you watch a bunch of the videos of MZ's blowing up and then you add in a bunch of the comments that you read on here and other sites clearly showing a severe lack of knowledge about proper loading, loads, safety it would lead one to wonder why even more don't "blow-up"


----------



## doegirl

Lundy said:


> I own 3 Savage MZ's , 1 is a stock 50 cal, the other 2 have custom Pacnor 45 cal barrels in them. I am very familar with a few of the guns that have "blown up"
> 
> I think the reason Savage quit offering the gun had little to do with the safety of the gun and much more to do with education the hunting public on how to safely use the gun. There was a very specific list of approved powders and load recommendations. Pretty obvious that there is a lot of operator error that is compounded with using smokeless.
> 
> If someone dumps 100 gr or god forbid 150 gr of smokeless down his barrel like he would T7 or Pyrodex he may have an issue.
> 
> Do a youyube search for Muzzleloader blows up. There are a lot to look at. None of them are Savage by the way but I wouldn't expect to see any. It is a numbers game there are probably many, many thousands of none smokless MZ's to every one smokless gun and certainly an equal ratio of blow-ups


Exactly right. Offering a muzzleloader capable of safely using smokeless is one thing, expecting the consumer to follow directions is completely another. Almost as soon as that gun first hit the stores, guys were doing beserk things with it like duplex loads and experimenting with unapproved powders. There's always someone willing to push equipment to the limit. That's a dangerous game to play when the smallest miscalculation or bout of forgetfulness can turn your gun into a 40,000+ PSI pipe bomb.
I will admit I did get a bit spooked with the accidents ( I have the stainless barrel Savage) which is why I tried BH209. It shoots well so I'm sticking with it. I still have my jug of IMR SR4759 should I ever want to go back to smokeless.


----------



## Muddy

Savage quit making the Model 10 muzzle loader because it was one of their slowest moving products. There were other firearms that they could not keep up with production. This was during the gun boom years. Savage eliminated it to produce more guns that sell quicker. It was economics, not safety that led to the elimination of the Model 10 ML.


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## fastwater

Have been doing some research on this whole Savage ML II 'big bang' deal and have come across some very interesting articles. 
Here's one by Randy Wakeman:
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm


----------



## fastwater

DP


----------



## Muddy

The switch to BH and Barnes bullets is complete. I'm getting 1.5" groups at 100 yards out of my CVA. Thanks for all of the good info.


----------



## buckeyebowman

fastwater said:


> Wow lawrence1!
> Did not know about the Savage 10 ML II exploding issues.
> Thanks for posting.


Yeah, wow! My buddy and I know a gun dealer who snagged up a bunch of these. Don't know if he's seen this article, but I'll sure send him the link. 

Your last post was chock full of useful info, fastwater. I've often wondered about how hydrophilic BP, and other powders, were. And I forgot that trip 7 is a BP "substitute", and thus subject to different rules, just like BH 209. Thanks for posting the conversions. I'll print those out and keep them handy. 

As far as those who got blown up, I'm not prepared to throw them under the bus. I wasn't there to see them load the rifle, but I also know that there are people who like to "push" things. 

My buddy has been muzzleloading for 40+ years! He told me about a guy he knew, way back in the day, who would cram 2 bullets down the muzzle over the powder charge. ON PURPOSE!! The bullets would usually strike 4-5" apart on a target. That is, until the barrel blew up on him! 

Someone came and informed my buddies. They ran to his house and found him in the kitchen trying to sew up his own hand! This guy had "tough" in pounds! Problem was, he could carry his brains around in a thimble!


----------



## lawrence1

We can all watch Youtube videos and read 7 year old articles and surmise it was operator error. What disturbs me though is why would Savage Arms recently agree to pay confidential settlements?


----------



## Lundy

lawrence1, have you ever shot, touched, seen, any smokeless MZ's made by any manufacturer? Are you even familiar with any muzzleloaders? Certainly if you were you could easily come up with many different operator errors that easily could lead to any muzzleloader "blowing up"

Do you know the CUP difference in a typical smokeless lead versus a traditional black powder substitute load?

Do you know the CUP of a 44 mag handgun a .357 mag handgun, a 22-250 rifle, or a 300 win mag rifle, or a 30-06? They all have equal or much higher developed pressure than the average load in a smokeless MZ. They are not blowing up from Savage or any other gun manufacturer. I wonder why that is?

Company's settle for the same reason all companies settle, not just gun companies. In our society it cost less money to just settle, and as I'm also sure you know, might know, should know, all out of court settlements, gun companies or otherwise,are normally confidential as a stipulation to the settlement agreement. In our litigious crazy world that is just a reality that costs all of us money.


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## lawrence1

Mr. Lundy,
As I understand your position, this rifle is an excellent, overbuilt ML when used with common sense and following safe loading and maintenance practices, would this be correct? I have not stated a position either way nor am I trying to incite blind fear over intellect. I simply provided the link.

Odd that you would reference a revolver's and rifle's CUP. Did you even read the link I provided and the supporting court document? Apparently not, as no mention of this was even brought up by the plaintiffs. 

Two short paraphrased quotes as proclaimed by the plaintiffs as issues with this rifle are;

* An unthreaded excess portion of the hole in the rear of the barrel (used to mount scopes) unnecessarily increase's the stress on the barrel during firing leading to its failure. 

* The sulfide particles in the barrel created weaknesses running along the length of the barrel, making it more susceptible to fractures.

Read more here; 
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4321900-PalatkaDecision.html

You may write it off as how litigation is just done these days but I don't. I stand by my previous statement that I find it disturbing that Savage would recently agree to pay confidential settlements. Furthermore, Savage's false statements to the court and past failures to provide discovery were a blatant misrepresentation of the facts and in fact they were sanctioned for it by a federal magistrate in 2015. Does that not throw up a red flag to you?


----------



## Lundy

lawrence1 said:


> Mr. Lundy,
> 
> 
> Two short paraphrased quotes as proclaimed by the plaintiffs as issues with this rifle are;
> 
> * An unthreaded excess portion of the hole in the rear of the barrel (used to mount scopes) unnecessarily increase's the stress on the barrel during firing leading to its failure.
> 
> Does that not throw up a red flag to you?


Absolutely it threw up red flags to me 6-7 years ago. I hunted with these guns and put one in my sons hands to hunt with. I would never have done that if I had any founded concerns. I have done a bunch of research and been actively involved with some of the best gunsmiths in the country that build firearms. I came to my own conclusion that based upon the information and knowledge (some first hand)available to me that with the loads I shoot that I am shooting the safest MZ made when I shoot my Savage. I own a total 9 muzzle loaders of various manufacturers.

One additional comment that you quoted from the article above. Maybe the author lost something in translation but it is not really accurate. It specifically references a hole in the barrel used to mount scopes. No such hole exists in the barrel. There is a small shallow hole to mount the rear iron sight. But scope mounts are mounted to the receiver, not to the barrel. That shallow thread hole is on every muzzleloader made that has rear iron sights.

Bottom line is that it doesn't really matter, they are no longer manufactured, I am happy people are informed of potential concerns about the dangers of a Savage MZ and other MZ's. All of the MZ manufacturers make videos and post them showing how to safely load and fire a MZ and the cautions of what to never do. They only make these videos for MZ's because they are without question the most prone to operator error and much more dangerous than any other cartridge firearm. Other smokeless MZ's are being made and sold including one from Remington. I still contend that I could blow up any MZ made pretty easily. Before CVA switched their barrel supplier many years ago they had a bunch of barrel failures in a very short time and that was with relatively mild in comparison Pyrodex and T7. Today CVA makes a very reliable and safe MZ.


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## buckeyebowman

I figure that Savage settled for the same reason that MacDonald's settled with the goofy lady who set a styrofoam cup of hot coffee with no lid on it in her lap while driving a car! 

Better to just pay her off rather than gamble on what a gang of civilian goofballs, called a jury, might do! 

And as far as Lundy's last post goes, some "wildcatter's" have succeeded in blowing up some modern breech loaders, so it's not a one way street by any means!


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## M.Magis

I think a lot of us assumed this would be the inevitable result from the time Savage put these guns on the market. People these days can’t pump their own gas or change their oil. Thinking they can safely load smokeless powder in the field is asking too much of many people.


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## buckbob

buckeyebowman i have the bh209 measuring tubes and if it load to 120 gr. line and then it actually weighs out to 93.5 gr. on my scale and when i shot it at that load i seen a lot of amber sparks coming out of barrel so i went to bh209 website and found this stating that 120 gr. volume is equal to 84 gr. by weight i think i had a lot of un burnt and still burning powder coming out of barrel so if i weigh out 84 grains of power it actually comes up to the 110 gr. line on my bh209 tubes


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## fastwater

M.Magis said:


> I think a lot of us assumed this would be the inevitable result from the time Savage put these guns on the market. People these days can’t pump their own gas or change their oil. *Thinking they can safely load smokeless powder in the field is asking too much of many people.*


Or for that matter, loading black powder safely, or its substitutes...seating projectiles all the way etc.

Gonna through this very basic, simple safety question out there just for giggles. Don't really want answers...just something to think about.
*How many people here that shoot ml'ers have an empty barrel mark and a loaded barrel mark on their ramrod?*
*Both their range rod and the rod they use in the field?
*
Such a simple,quickly done, basic safety method that lets us know that we don't have two projectiles loaded, no powder charge...double powder charge or we don't have projectile seated all the way.
Bet we would probably be surprised to find out the honest answers.

IMO, there are two types of people that get very dangerous with about anything they do. This is something I was told years ago by a very wise fella and IMO, has proven to be the truth.

First: the novice. Especially the novice that doesn't either read instructions or get with someone experienced in their new endeavors to learn as much as they can before proceeding.

Second: the all knowing expert. The one that's been around something and doing something so long that they think they know everything about what they're doing. They've been doing their activity so long that the steps to perform their activity becomes second nature and they stop concentrating as much while performing the required steps. In other words...they can get careless.

One of the most knowledgeable fellas I ever knew when it came to firearms was a long time armorer, gun builder and retired as shooting instructor with Cols. PD.
He was much older then I. To say the least, this guy had spent his life from a toddler, military and the rest of his life not only shooting, but making his living around firearms in one way or another.
Though most of the way he made his living was done around modern weapons, his real passion/hobby was building and shooting ml'ers.
Anyways, I met him as I was previledged enough to be able to shoot at the Cols PD shooting range. Again, where he worked. Though I always enjoyed my time shooting there, more than the shooting, I enjoyed talking with him. His knowledge and experience around firearms, and especially those shooting firearms was incredible. He surely had some colorful stories he could tell. Some comical...some not.
He had an old saying when it came to being around people handling firearms,
" Beware of the novice...they don't know.
Beware of the expert, they are too smart".

The meaning of the first sentence in his saying was obvious.
When asked the meaning of the second sentence, he stated in his experience, the 'experts' often tend to get more careless, especially when it comes to safety issues( IE sweeping people, clearing weapon etc.) the longer and more comfortable they shoot. He always said that he didn't care how long a guy had been shooting or been around firearms, he should always go back and review basic gun handling safety/procedures every so often just as a self refresher course. It's an area many 'experts' obviously know, but can get careless at over the years.


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## buckeyebowman

I know you didn't really want answers, but I have one. 

Some years ago I was with my BIL at his hunting camp in SE Ohio for late muzzle loader. At the time I had a T/C 50 cal. Hawken flintlock. We were going to load our guns for opening day. When I slid my ramrod down the barrel, something didn't seem right. 

I didn't have any painted marks, but I just knew that the rod shouldn't be sitting that high. So, I grabbed my pan charger and wandered outside. I threw a shot of FFFFg in the pan, closed the frizzen, and touched her off! The gun went BOOM, and I knocked a nice big chunk out of the fallen log across the creek below the cabin. 

My BIL came running out of the cabin onto the porch with his eyes the size of fried eggs! "What the Hell was that?!" I told him that I thought the gun was empty, but the ramrod said otherwise. So, I decided better safe than sorry. 

I returned to the cabin to do a complete clean up of the gun, load another charge, touch it off to foul the barrel, and re-load for the next day.


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## ohihunter2014

horrible! Hit a buck under 100yards with 2-777 pellets and no exit and no blood and went 100yards. Never again. Now its .452 300gr XTP.


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## buckeyebowman

What bullet were you shooting? No exit doesn't necessarily mean poor performance. I've read of many short recoveries with the fully expanded bullet found under the offside skin of the animal. So the bullet spent all it's energy inside the animal.


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## ohihunter2014

buckeyebowman said:


> What bullet were you shooting? No exit doesn't necessarily mean poor performance. I've read of many short recoveries with the fully expanded bullet found under the offside skin of the animal. So the bullet spent all it's energy inside the animal.


250gr shockwave. Entrance was pinky size with not a drop of blood on the snow. Never found the bullet inside but IMO it didn't perform. Now the xtp last night blew the bottom of the heart out and left two quarter-half dollar holes in it on each side.


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## buckeyebowman

Right now I shoot Hornady XTP's. Tried the Shockwaves and never liked them. They were a bear to load, and wouldn't group worth a crap for me! Powerbelts loaded easy, but wouldn't group either.

Check out Muddy's thread "10 Pointer" for an illustration of how Barnes X-Pander bullets perform.


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## Alaskan20

My dad and I went to the range yesterday. He has an older omega and I have a older encore. We tried bh209 and Barnes tmz 250grain. We shot 100, 110,and 120 grain by volume. 100 grain shot the best with about 2-3" groups at 100 yds. At 150 yds the best we could do was 4-6" groups with an occasional flyer... 150 grain t7 and shockwaves were tack drivers at up to 200 yds but poor bullet performance. I ordered 245 spitfire and 250 reg ml expander hoping one of these will work.


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## M R DUCKS

Have you tried LESS powder....like maybe 90 grn by vol. ? I think I may try that next. No real complaints with my current set up. I'm just experimenting.


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## Alaskan20

I will try next time out. I wish I would have tried last time out but I ran out. I’ll keep u the posted


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## fastwater

Alaskan20 said:


> My dad and I went to the range yesterday. He has an older omega and I have a older encore. We tried bh209 and Barnes tmz 250grain. We shot 100, 110,and 120 grain by volume. 100 grain shot the best with about 2-3" groups at 100 yds. At 150 yds the best we could do was 4-6" groups with an occasional flyer... 150 grain t7 and shockwaves were tack drivers at up to 200 yds but poor bullet performance. I ordered 245 spitfire and 250 reg ml expander hoping one of these will work.


Did you try the Shockwave's with the BH? If so, how did they fly using the BH versus T7?
If the Shockwave's fly good with the BH like they do with the T7, then seems your bbls prefer the exact bullet/sabot diameter the Shockwave provides. Matching that exact diameter with the TMZ bullet/sabot combo should get you the same results providing both the bullets are the same grain weight.
Question...are the TMZ's loading harder/easier than the Shockwave's?
If harder, you may have to go to a thinner walled sabot. If easier, possibly a thicker walled sabot.
If you call MMP Sabot's, they can be very helpful in matching up a sabot for your TMZ bullet.
https://www.mmpsabots.com/


M R Ducks has a very good suggestion? Finding that 'sweet spot' for your particular rifle can take some time...but IMO, is half the fun. And we all no that any two rifles will prefer a different setup.

Another thing to really keep in mind that is extremely critical in possibly closing your groups up is making sure that not only the flash channel of the breech plug is very clean(clean using 1/8 drill bit), but the flash hole as well(using torch tip cleaner).
http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

Also, if you have a lot of rounds through your rifles, may be a good bore cleaning using a solvent such as GunScrubber designed to cut plastic fouling in the barrel is in order. Shooting sabot's can plastic foul a bbl after so long causing group issues.


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## CaneCorsoDad

This is from this years Ohio buck, while I was dressing the deer , my son noticed a streak in the mud behind the deer and found this, the shot was about 75 yards from 18 feet up in a stand, the trees 10 feet behind the deer had tissue and blood spattered everywhere, the deer dropped like it had been hit by lightning, double lung, no spine, solid copper Barnes, 100 gr Pyrodex out of a TC Impact, this combo will touch all 5 holes @ 100 yards, needless to say I found what this gun likes


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## Lundy

Please take notice that the Barnes muzzleloader bullets offer two primary designs, one is a flat base, Expander, and the rest, Spitfire, are Boattail design. Not all guns like the boattail, especially at high power charges. I have never shot anything but the flat base expanders. Terminal performance are the same for either.


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> Please take notice that the Barnes muzzleloader bullets offer two primary designs, one is a flat base, Expander, and the rest, Spitfire, are Boattail design. Not all guns like the boattail, especially at high power charges. I have never shot anything but the flat base expanders. Terminal performance are the same for either.


Lundy, I believe the Spitfire T-EZ is a flat based bullet like the Expander.


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## Lundy

you are correct


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## buckeyebowman

M R DUCKS suggestion is spot on! When I start experimenting with BH 209 powder this Spring and Summer, I intend to throttle back and work my way up. You need to find the tipping point where accuracy starts going the other way.


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## Tim67

Lundy said:


> Tight fitting bores are not uncommon any more than loose fitting bores are. Both can effect accuracy and a tight fitting bore makes reloading very unpleasant.
> 
> You can typically solve that issue just by using a sabot that better fits your bore. With your tight fitting bore the HPH-24 will probably solve all of your problems no matter what bullet you select. It is 2 thousands smaller in diameter. My buddy has an OMEGA and cussed it like crazy while loading. I purchased the smaller diameter sabots for him to try and he has been smiling ever since.
> 
> http://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/
> 
> The PR bullets are nice bullets, I have killed some deer with them. The primary reason I switched back to Barnes over them is in the event of a poorly placed shot into a shoulder I know how the Barnes copper perform, I'm not sure about the PR bullets. I just decided not to try and fix something that wasn't broken.


I too won and shoot a T/C Omega z5 50 cal. And even with a clean bore trying to load some bullet/sabot combos like TC Shockwave and others can be almost impossible. Lots of guys bad mouth Powerbelts but one they load nicely and my gun seems to like them, I have much more constant groups @ 100 yards plus also Federal Premium.Copper also get good results looked at the link you posted and thinking of trying the HPH-24, as I have about 120 of the Shockwaves that just aren't mwant for my Omega, but maybe these sabot will do The trick and I can use those instead of just having them sit ideal. Thanks for the info.


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> I too won and shoot a T/C Omega z5 50 cal. And even with a clean bore trying to load some bullet/sabot combos like TC Shockwave and others can be almost impossible. Lots of guys bad mouth Powerbelts but one they load nicely and my gun seems to like them, I have much more constant groups @ 100 yards plus also Federal Premium.Copper also get good results looked at the link you posted and thinking of trying the HPH-24, as I have about 120 of the Shockwaves that just aren't mwant for my Omega, but maybe these sabot will do The trick and I can use those instead of just having them sit ideal. Thanks for the info.


When you click on the MMP site there should be a phone number for them. Have talked to the folks at MMP a few times and they are always very helpful in getting you fixed up with the right sabot for your bbl and choice of projectile. Like Lundy, they are also very informative on projectile, powder and primer choices as well.
Good luck to you...


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## Tim67

fastwater said:


> When you click on the MMP site there should be a phone number for them. Have talked to the folks at MMP a few times and they are always very helpful in getting you fixed up with the right sabot for your bbl and choice of projectile. Like Lundy, they are also very informative on projectile, powder and primer choices as well.
> Good luck to you...


Great, Thank you! Everyone ha've a safe weekend, supposed to be a wet one


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## Smitty82

So I understand that my scale isn’t the best on the market, and when I get more money I’ll get a nice one. My question is, why isn’t the 70 weight amount closer to the 100 volume tube line amount? Is this a bad scale or are the tubes not that accurate?


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## buckbob

I shoot 80 grains on my scale and it reads not quite to the 110 grain line on my tubes also so it s not your scale


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## fastwater

Buckbob is most likely exactly right about your scales being right.
Your speed loaders are most likely marked in increments correctly as well (for 2f black powder...not any substitutes).
Got a little experiment for ya. Take that same tube you have pictured with the 209 and shake it up. See what the 209 measurement reads. Then tap the side of the tube 4-5 times and get that reading. It will be lower. Tap some more and most likely will be lower yet.
Obvious reason is settling of the powder.
And regardless of whether the powder is BH 209 or any other BP substitute, the larger each grain is in the powder, the more settling will occur.
Knowing that, also note that 'volume' powder measurers as well as speed loader if marked, are marked using the old scale for measuring original 2f black powder. Not any of the substitutes powders which have a different consistency than 2f BP.

If you want to weigh your charges, find the 209 charge measured by volume your rifle and projectile combo prefers. Once you find that charge...pour that amount into your volume measure. Then weigh that charge and pour into into your speed loader. You'll get a rough estimate of where that weight of powder is gonna be in your speed loader. Again, it won't be exact science as to where your speed loader fills up to cause of how the granules fall into place but should be very close.


----------



## Tim67

Evening, So got a little bit of time to get over to the range today. And while I've only shooting for 'round 8 months I am getting more consistent. And only had time to take a dozen shots, in sets of 3. Gave up trying Shockwaves and a few others and stuck with Powerbelt Aerotip and Federal Premium Copper and I took scope off as I been trying unsuccessfully to get sighted in since Christmas. Seem to just do better w/iron sights @ 100 yds. Just keep practicing until Nov. and Jan of course.


----------



## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Evening, So got a little bit of time to get over to the range today. And while I've only shooting for 'round 8 months I am getting more consistent. And only had time to take a dozen shots, in sets of 3. Gave up trying Shockwaves and a few others and stuck with Powerbelt Aerotip and Federal Premium Copper and I took scope off as I been trying unsuccessfully to get sighted in since Christmas. Seem to just do better w/iron sights @ 100 yds. Just keep practicing until Nov. and Jan of course.


Tim,
That's some good 100 yd shooting with irons.
What kind of scope do you have and was it bore sighted when you installed it's?
Also, what powder,how many grains of powder and primer are you using? And did you get any HPH24 sabot's?


----------



## Burkcarp1

Also would be curious what brand of scope. I seen a lot of guys having problems with their scopes then realize that they weren’t attached tight to the mount.


----------



## Tim67

fastwater said:


> Tim,
> That's some good 100 yd shooting with irons.
> What kind of scope do you have and was it bore sighted when you installed it's?
> Also, what powder,how many grains of powder and primer are you using? And did you get any HPH24 sabot's?


Shooting T/C Omega z5 pyrodex triple 7 100 grain (2pellets) 295 grain Powerbelt. Shoot is Thompson Center Universal w/Gorilla mounts; brought later so was never sighted, got a mighty Lyte Laser bore sight kit and tried several times thought had adjusted but not even on paper @ 100. Also tried to remove breach plug and go that route still got no love. I regularly clean after shooting. So until I afford to take it in and try having pro sight it will keep shooting bare eye an irons. Thanks again


----------



## Tim67

Tim67 said:


> Shooting T/C Omega z5 pyrodex triple 7 100 grain (2pellets) 295 grain Powerbelt. Shoot is Thompson Center Universal w/Gorilla mounts; brought later so was never sighted, got a mighty Lyte Laser bore sight kit and tried several times thought had adjusted but not even on paper @ 100. Also tried to remove breach plug and go that route still got no love. I regularly clean after shooting. So until I afford to take it in and try having pro sight it will keep shooting bare eye an irons. Thanks again


Also using 209's and no have not been able to get HPH24 sabots hope to soon.


----------



## Tim67

Well after posting that I couldn't get my scope sighted in for nothing. I cleaned my TC Omega, made a few adjustments to scope and went out to the range. And after trying since Christmas using boresight, lazier boresight, Finally made some positive steps toward having my muzzleloader and scope sighted in.. Thanks for the bits of advice from all of you who tossed in their expertise as you see from the picture Of target that was much improved this was from over 104yards


----------



## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Well after posting that I couldn't get my scope sighted in for nothing. I cleaned my TC Omega, made a few adjustments to scope and went out to the range. And after trying since Christmas using boresight, lazier boresight, Finally made some positive steps toward having my muzzleloader and scope sighted in.. Thanks for the bits of advice from all of you who tossed in their expertise as you see from the picture Of target that was much improved this was from over 104yards


Good shooting!
Glad you got her on paper with the scope.
I'd bet a $ to a donut that getting some HPH24 sabot's and going to some 250grn Barnes TEZ bullets(or comparable) you will be shooting at least baseball size groups with that rifle at 100yds. Fine tuned, bench rested maybe even around 1 1/2-2" groups.


----------



## Tim67

Thanks for the 'vote' of confidence on my shooting Fastwater. I appreciate it, I have been following this thread and comments made about HPH24 sabots and the Barnes Tez/TMZ bullets. I haven't been able to find any in my area and live on a fixed income so I plan to order some online may just take a month or so. Will be sure to leave some comments once I get some time at the range So Thanks again


----------



## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Thanks for the 'vote' of confidence on my shooting Fastwater. I appreciate it, I have been following this thread and comments made about HPH24 sabots and the Barnes Tez/TMZ bullets. I haven't been able to find any in my area and live on a fixed income so I plan to order some online may just take a month or so. Will be sure to leave some comments once I get some time at the range So Thanks again


I know what you mean about not being able to find the Barnes TEZ/TMZ in your area. Can't find them around here either. Called and talked to a Rep. from Barnes and he was surprised to find out that many of the Dealers here that are listed as places that are supposed to carry them on the Barnes website are not carrying them. Said he would speak to the Barnes Rep. that does Ohio and see what's going on. Also, when ordering at Barnes, if your order is more than $100, your shipping is free. If you can find someone else close by interested in placing an order with you you can save shipping fees. There's four of us that have switched...or are switching so we'll all be ordering them together.


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## Tim67

Good Evening All, Just wanted to throw question out real quick. Was out today and came across a new ammo never heard of, and was wondering if anyone has tried. Umarek .50 caliber Speed belt? Thanks


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## Kenlow1

Fast water, I just ordered some Barnes 50 cal Expander MZ 250 grain copper bullets from Midway USA. May want to try them. I live in Northeast Ohio and could not find any Barnes muzzleloader bullets- not even Fin-Feather-Fur had them.


----------



## fastwater

Kenlow1 said:


> Fast water, I just ordered some Barnes 50 cal Expander MZ 250 grain copper bullets from Midway USA. May want to try them. I live in Northeast Ohio and could not find any Barnes muzzleloader bullets- not even Fin-Feather-Fur had them.


I know...same here.
Couldn't find any Barnes m/l bullets around these parts. Even from the Ohio dealers Barnes has listed on their Ohio dealer lists that were within 75 miles of me. 
Maybe all here in Ohio that shoot the Barnes M/L bullets should make a call to Barnes telling them what we are finding(or in this case...not finding).


----------



## Kenlow1

After all the feedback about Barnes bullets from this post, I think a lot of us are making the switch to Barnes bullets. I am going to be going to the range soon to pattern the bullets-the real test will be when harvesting a deer and see how the bullet expands, how far the deer travels, blood trail, etc. I too have shot the TC shockwaves and had to track deer that should have only gone a few if any yards after making a good kill shot. I am actually excited to hunt with the Barnes bullets after all the positives on this post. Thanks to Lundy for all the homework and testing on these bullets and everyone else that had experience with this. I will try to contact someone at Barnes to see why there is no inventory on bullets here in Ohio?


----------



## Tim67

Well if anyone happens to come up with contact information some either customer service or sales rep. and would pass that info. On here, I would be glad to get a hold of them and voice our frustrations. After following this thread for awhile now I too am anxious to try some of these Barnes bullets in my TC Omega. Thanks


----------



## fastwater

Kenlow1 said:


> After all the feedback about Barnes bullets from this post, I think a lot of us are making the switch to Barnes bullets. I am going to be going to the range soon to pattern the bullets-the real test will be when harvesting a deer and see how the bullet expands, how far the deer travels, blood trail, etc. I too have shot the TC shockwaves and had to track deer that should have only gone a few if any yards after making a good kill shot. I am actually excited to hunt with the Barnes bullets after all the positives on this post. Thanks to Lundy for all the homework and testing on these bullets and everyone else that had experience with this. I will try to contact someone at Barnes to see why there is no inventory on bullets here in Ohio?


Yes...I too have Mr Lundy to thank for changing my projectile up.
It was very hard getting away from the Hornady SST's because just had those thing dialed in where they were practically cloverleafing at
100yds from the bench. But on deer, like many, often same size hole in as out with very little blood trail. Have opened up heart shot deer that should have had the heart blown up and found small hole in heart or not the expected tissue damage you would expect.



Tim67 said:


> Well if anyone happens to come up with contact information some either customer service or sales rep. and would pass that info. On here, I would be glad to get a hold of them and voice our frustrations. After following this thread for awhile now I too am anxious to try some of these Barnes bullets in my TC Omega. Thanks


Barnes customer service # 1-800-574-9200


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## Kenlow1

I called Barnes Customer Service and they gave me a guys name that is the sales rep. for Ohio, have a call into him to find out why no inventory in Ohio? The customer service guy was very knowledgeable and said Ohio was one of their top states for sales? Hmmmmmm?


----------



## Tim67

Went over to range (Crawford County Sportsmens club) to practice and to work some more with my scope. Still need a little fine adjusting but I believe I finally identified my biggest problem Is I have been shooting a variety of Bullets and weights, after finally getting my scope dialed in I have found that there are 2 bullets which shot very accurate from my Omega T/C shockwave blue tip (bonded?) and aero Powerbelt but since I opened them and put in my pouches I'm not sure of weight so going to try to weigh with small digital scale if that dont tell me than I guess I go buy some new packs (anyone have a better idea) Will post pics of targets in a bit. Have a great Day All.


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## Tim67

So like I said, main objective was to make sure scope was sighted in after having months of problems. Not ideal but groups aren't bad. Did figure out gun likes TC SHOCKWAVE bonded (blue tip)250 grain, Aerotip platinum 300 grain. or federal premium Copper 270 grain. Anyone have a suggestion as to which to use come Deer season? Thanks again for all the help gents. Have a great day.


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Went over to range (Crawford County Sportsmens club) to practice and to work some more with my scope. Still need a little fine adjusting but I believe I finally identified my biggest problem Is I have been shooting a variety of Bullets and weights, after finally getting my scope dialed in I have found that there are 2 bullets which shot very accurate from my Omega T/C shockwave blue tip (bonded?) and aero Powerbelt but since I opened them and put in my pouches I'm not sure of weight so going to try to weigh with small digital scale if that dont tell me than I guess I go buy some new packs (anyone have a better idea) Will post pics of targets in a bit. Have a great Day All.


If you have the means to accurately do so, obviously weighing will be your best bet. But you could also measure the length of the projectiles. Not sure the overall length of the Power Belts but on the T/C Shockwave bonded(blue tip) 250grn for a 50 cal. the naked bullet(just bullet minus the sabot) the overall length will be right at .950 measuring with a micrometer or just barely over 15/16" measure with a ruler/tape measure. The same bullet in 300gr. will be noticeable longer but I can't tell you the exact increase in length.
Again, as far as the difference between the lengths of the Platinum 250 and 300grn Powerbelts, I can't tell you cause I don't have any Platinums. But like Shockwaves, the 250's will be shorter than the 300's.


----------



## Tim67

fastwater said:


> If you have the means to accurately do so, obviously weighing will be your best bet. But you could also measure the length of the projectiles. Not sure the overall length of the Power Belts but on the T/C Shockwave bonded(blue tip) 250grn for a 50 cal. the naked bullet(just bullet minus the sabot) the overall length will be right at .950 measuring with a micrometer or just barely over 15/16" measure with a ruler/tape measure. The same bullet in 300gr. will be noticeable longer but I can't tell you the exact increase in length.
> Again, as far as the difference between the lengths of the Platinum 250 and 300grn Powerbelts, I can't tell you cause I don't have any Platinums. But like Shockwaves, the 250's will be shorter than the 300's.


Thanks Fastwater, I bought a small digital scale and weighted them Shockwave bonded was like 17.5 grams which converted to around 250 grain when I looked up conversion chart. Gonna give Deer hunting a try this season any suggestions on which of those would be best.


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Thanks Fastwater, I bought a small digital scale and weighted them Shockwave bonded was like 17.5 grams which converted to around 250 grain when I looked up conversion chart. Gonna give Deer hunting a try this season any suggestions on which of those would be best.


The only one I can comment on out of the three you mentioned would be the Shockwave's. I've shot a bunch of the regular Aerotips Powerbelts but have no experience with the Platinum's. I have a Rem 700 m/l that slings the regular Aerotips as accurate as can be with 90 grns of Cleanshot powder but the problem with them is they often fragment on game. Also, powder loads much past 90grns. is when I start getting flyers.
Far as the Shockwaves go, out of the Encore with 110 grns of Blackhorn 209, they are absolute tack drivers. Just to unreliable on expansion.
The very reason I have taken the advice of Lundy and a few others and switched to the Barnes 250grn TEZ's.

The TEZ's had been flying well but just about the time I was getting them really dialed in like I wanted, I decided to pull my breech plug and drill the flash hole out to .035. I haven't been able to get back out to see the changes this is going to make in the POI.
If I can get the Barnes hitting as accurate as the Shockwave's or the Hornady SST's did...and they perform on game like they are designed to do and have the reputation of doing...I am going to be one happy camper.

So back to your question on which to use, sorry, I can't really say for sure.
I don't know how the Powerbelt Platinums or the Federals react when hitting game versus hitting paper targets.
Hopefully someone with experience shooting them will chime in with their thoughts.


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## Lundy

If I had to choose I would choose a slightly less accurate load and bullet with good terminal performance over an extremely accurate bullet or load that doesn't deliver acceptable terminal performance. Fortunately I have never had to make those kinds of choices. I have always been able to get my bullet of choice to shoot very well from any MZ I have ever owned, traditional style powders to the smokeless versions, same results.

Many think MZ accuracy is as easy as purchasing a bullet and some powder and stuffing it down the barrel and expecting great results. Every gun is different and unique, even from the same manufacturer and same model. You have 5 primary components that all must be in harmony to achieve the maximum accuracy, performance and repeatability, powder, load volume, sabot, bullet and ignition source. Change any one of these and you change the outcome. Unfortunately many are forced to compromise by selecting bullets that may not deliver the best down range deer killing capability but it allows them to circumvent the tedious process of working up a load to shoot a bullet that just by design delivers better deer killing ability.

If the entire intent, the primary end goal, of deer hunting with a MZ is to kill a deer I would make sure I have the business end of that task and capable as possible.


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## fastwater

Agree with your assessment Lundy. Especially the part about many thinking the can get an inline, stuff most anything down the bore and should be clover leafing at 100yds.
It's not until they shoot with someone that has done their homework, spent time working up the right load(paying particular attention to those 5 areas you speak of) and shoots circles around the person that hasn't that that person then realizes they haven't come close to squeezing out the accuracy their rifle is capable of.
And FWIW, all that didn't just start with inlines. Same was/is true with cap locks,flinters etc.
But IMHO, that has always been part of the fun of shooting front stuffers.


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## Tim67

Went to the range today beautiful day but bit of a strong crosswind around 19mph . My groupings were very tight as pic shows, just could not get in bulls for anything. But at 100 plus yards not too bad. Was shooting TC Shockwave 200grain bonded, when I tried heavier grain was way off. I thought with wind that 250- 300 grain would shoot better, not the case any thoughts from the wiser gents in the group?


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## fastwater

If the three 12oclock and 9 o'clock are the 200grn Shockwave's they are grouping nicely. What sabot's were you using with the 250-300grn bullets? Were they the same as the 200grn Shockwave's?


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## Tim67

The 200 have the blue 3 pedal sabot. -


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## fastwater

The thickness and pedal number of the sabot can affect the performance just as much as the bullet weight.
It's been my experience that you can usually pick a bullet weight and get it to shoot good enough 'minute of deer' by finding the right sabot and powder charge to match up with the bullet.
As close as its getting to hunting season, if I were you I would start working up whatever load you are going to stick with for hunting and really start working with that load.
Again, FWIW, thanks to the wise recommendations and advice of Lundy and a few others, I have switched from the Shockwave bonded bullets as well as the Hornady SST's(which are the same bullet) and went to the Barnes TEZ's. There are now actually four of us making that switch. The reason is surely not the lack of accuracy of the Shockwave's or the SST bullets. But rather the years of repeated poor performance of the bullet when hitting a deer. They hit where you aim for sure. They just don't expand reliably causing little, if any blood trail.

Also, my buddy has a rather new Encore Pro Hunter XT that has a very tight bore. The other day he was shooting White Hots. Two pellets...100grn.
I was explaining to him how clean Blackhorn 209 shot. He explained to me that he thought the White Hots were just as clean as the Blachorn 209. So we did a little experiment. He was able to shoot two shots with the White Hots without cleaning between shots. The third load we could not get all the way down the dirty bbl.
Removed that load.
Cleaned bbl and started shooting 100grns by volume of Blackhorn 209. Shot seven consecutive shots and could have went further but buddy decided he would switch to the Blackhorn as he was convinced Blackhorn is that much cleaner. He even made the statement that the seventh load did not load any harder than the 2nd and 3rd load. And to top things off, once zeroed with the Blackhorn, the Barnes TEZ's are dotting the I's out of his rifle just the same as the Shockwave's were.

Bottom line is...if I were shopping for a bullet for deer hunting that not only offered accuracy but reliable expansion on game, I'd surely put the Shockwave's aside. I've shot too many deer with them over the years that when those deer were recovered, which sometimes was very difficult, I found the same size entrance hole as exit hole. And when field dressing, found internal organs with the same size holes. 
Accurate...yes! 
Good or even mediocre terminal performance...NO!


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## Smitty82

I’m sold on the black horn from shooting it this off season. One thing I have noticed is I seem to have more muzzle flash from the bh (70 weight by scale) compared to the triple 7. I’m thinking this is bc the bh is loose not pellet. I’ve also done a comparison between the 250 sst and the 250 Barnes tmz boat tail. Sst is more accurate but the tmz arnt too far behind. I’m curious if this is bc of the boat tail, so I’m going to get some Tez’s flat and see how that does.


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## fastwater

Smitty82 said:


> I’m sold on the black horn from shooting it this off season. One thing I have noticed is I seem to have more muzzle flash from the bh (70 weight by scale) compared to the triple 7. I’m thinking this is bc the bh is loose not pellet. I’ve also done a comparison between the 250 sst and the 250 Barnes tmz boat tail. Sst is more accurate but the tmz arnt too far behind. I’m curious if this is bc of the boat tail, so I’m going to get some Tez’s flat and see how that does.


I have not tried the tmz boat tails.
Wanted a flat bottom bullet cause I have bulk bags of various flat bottom sabot's and two other inlines that shoot 250grn bullets well but require heavier sabot's. The Pro Hunter likes the TEZ with the sabot that comes with them.


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## Tim67

fastwater said:


> The thickness and pedal number of the sabot can affect the performance just as much as the bullet weight.
> It's been my experience that you can usually pick a bullet weight and get it to shoot good enough 'minute of deer' by finding the right sabot and powder charge to match up with the bullet.
> As close as its getting to hunting season, if I were you I would start working up whatever load you are going to stick with for hunting and really start working with that load.
> Again, FWIW, thanks to the wise recommendations and advice of Lundy and a few others, I have switched from the Shockwave bonded bullets as well as the Hornady SST's(which are the same bullet) and went to the Barnes TEZ's. There are now actually four of us making that switch. The reason is surely not the lack of accuracy of the Shockwave's or the SST bullets. But rather the years of repeated poor performance of the bullet when hitting a deer. They hit where you aim for sure. They just don't expand reliably causing little, if any blood trail.
> 
> Also, my buddy has a rather new Encore Pro Hunter XT that has a very tight bore. The other day he was shooting White Hots. Two pellets...100grn.
> I was explaining to him how clean Blackhorn 209 shot. He explained to me that he thought the White Hots were just as clean as the Blachorn 209. So we did a little experiment. He was able to shoot two shots with the White Hots without cleaning between shots. The third load we could not get all the way down the dirty bbl.
> Removed that load.
> Cleaned bbl and started shooting 100grns by volume of Blackhorn 209. Shot seven consecutive shots and could have went further but buddy decided he would switch to the Blackhorn as he was convinced Blackhorn is that much cleaner. He even made the statement that the seventh load did not load any harder than the 2nd and 3rd load. And to top things off, once zeroed with the Blackhorn, the Barnes TEZ's are dotting the I's out of his rifle just the same as the Shockwave's were.
> 
> Bottom line is...if I were shopping for a bullet for deer hunting that not only offered accuracy but reliable expansion on game, I'd surely put the Shockwave's aside. I've shot too many deer with them over the years that when those deer were recovered, which sometimes was very difficult, I found the same size entrance hole as exit hole. And when field dressing, found internal organs with the same size holes.
> Accurate...yes!
> Good or even mediocre terminal performance...NO!





fastwater said:


> The thickness and pedal number of the sabot can affect the performance just as much as the bullet weight.
> It's been my experience that you can usually pick a bullet weight and get it to shoot good enough 'minute of deer' by finding the right sabot and powder charge to match up with the bullet.
> As close as its getting to hunting season, if I were you I would start working up whatever load you are going to stick with for hunting and really start working with that load.
> Again, FWIW, thanks to the wise recommendations and advice of Lundy and a few others, I have switched from the Shockwave bonded bullets as well as the Hornady SST's(which are the same bullet) and went to the Barnes TEZ's. There are now actually four of us making that switch. The reason is surely not the lack of accuracy of the Shockwave's or the SST bullets. But rather the years of repeated poor performance of the bullet when hitting a deer. They hit where you aim for sure. They just don't expand reliably causing little, if any blood trail.
> 
> Also, my buddy has a rather new Encore Pro Hunter XT that has a very tight bore. The other day he was shooting White Hots. Two pellets...100grn.
> I was explaining to him how clean Blackhorn 209 shot. He explained to me that he thought the White Hots were just as clean as the Blachorn 209. So we did a little experiment. He was able to shoot two shots with the White Hots without cleaning between shots. The third load we could not get all the way down the dirty bbl.
> Removed that load.
> Cleaned bbl and started shooting 100grns by volume of Blackhorn 209. Shot seven consecutive shots and could have went further but buddy decided he would switch to the Blackhorn as he was convinced Blackhorn is that much cleaner. He even made the statement that the seventh load did not load any harder than the 2nd and 3rd load. And to top things off, once zeroed with the Blackhorn, the Barnes TEZ's are dotting the I's out of his rifle just the same as the Shockwave's were.
> 
> Bottom line is...if I were shopping for a bullet for deer hunting that not only offered accuracy but reliable expansion on game, I'd surely put the Shockwave's aside. I've shot too many deer with them over the years that when those deer were recovered, which sometimes was very difficult, I found the same size entrance hole as exit hole. And when field dressing, found internal organs with the same size holes.
> Accurate...yes!
> Good or even mediocre terminal performance...NO!


Fastwater, I want to thank you and the others in this group of course. For all of the helpful insight you have given over the past few months. It's much appreciated, that said , I will try to find somewhere to order the Barnes combos asap. As you said time is drawing short for opening day and will need to practice some will the Barnes. About the short reply on sabots, battery went dead and was all I could get in. The 250-300 (?) Shockwaves come with yellow 3-4 pedal sabot, when I have enough, I switch to TC's basic black sabot they sell w/their CheapShot. It's a thinner sabot and loads easier but shoots those boattails much more accurate at least from my Omega. Again Thank you and am going to find n order some of the Barnes asap. Have a great weekend!


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Fastwater, I want to thank you and the others in this group of course. For all of the helpful insight you have given over the past few months. It's much appreciated, that said , I will try to find somewhere to order the Barnes combos asap. As you said time is drawing short for opening day and will need to practice some will the Barnes. About the short reply on sabots, battery went dead and was all I could get in. The 250-300 (?) Shockwaves come with yellow 3-4 pedal sabot, when I have enough, I switch to TC's basic black sabot they sell w/their CheapShot. It's a thinner sabot and loads easier but shoots those boattails much more accurate at least from my Omega. Again Thank you and am going to find n order some of the Barnes asap. Have a great weekend!


You're very welcome Tim.
As far as ordering the Barnes bullets, the Spitfire MZ and TMZ bullets are the boattail design that come with a bit of a heavier sabot. The Spitfire TEZ is a flat bottom bullet the same as the Shockwave bullets that comes with a thinner sabot that is for tighter bores. 
Taking Lundy's advice from a much earlier post in this thread, I called Barnes and told them that I am shooting an Encore Pro Hunter with 250grn Shockwave's, using 110grns of Blackhorn 209 powder and Remington STS 209 primers. I asked the guy what Barnes he woulld suggest. His response was that most Thompson Center gun bores are on the tighter side and suggested I use the Spitfire TEZ bullets. Again, they come with a blue,thin sabot for easier loading in tighter bores. 
My Encore bore sounds as though it may be much like your Omega bore which is a bit on the tight side so I took his advice and went with the Spitfire TEZ's. 
As far as finding the Barnes bullets locally around Ohio, with the exception of making a long trip to our nearest Cabellas store, our group just couldn't find them at smaller stores. Using the 'where to buy Barnes bullets' on the Barnes website, when you type your zip code in it will give you a list of stores in your area that are supposed to carry Barnes bullets. Unfortunately none of these places had any in stock this time of year. We shopped around online and ended up ordering ours from Cabellas because we got free shipping on any order over $100. Ordering six 24count packages(they come in 15ct also) qualified us for the free shipping. 
Others on here have reported they can't find them in their local stores either. 
I don't know where you live but if you find them locally around you, please come back and post as others may want to know as well.


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## Tim67

I live in Crestline, bout 10 miles west of Mansfield. And will do, should I come across any locally or regional for that matter I will be sure to pass that info along. Thanks again Have a great day


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## Burkcarp1

I just bought some from midway. They had them in stock.


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## Tim67

Burkcarp1 said:


> I just bought some from midway. They had them in stock.


Burkcarp1, Not to be too personal but can I ask you how much they are per pack and do they have a minimum order? Thanks Tim67


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## Burkcarp1

Tim67 said:


> Burkcarp1, Not to be too personal but can I ask you how much they are per pack and do they have a minimum order? Thanks Tim67


19.99 for a 15 pk .free shipping over 99.00. I must have took the last ones because I just looked and they are out of stock


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## Smitty82

Both Muzzle-Loaders.com, and Brownells has them in stock. I personally like ordering from midway but as stated before they are out of stock.


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## fastwater

Burkcarp1 said:


> 19.99 for a 15 pk .free shipping over 99.00. I must have took the last ones because I just looked and they are out of stock


Cabellas has them for the same.
They also have the 24pk for $29.99.
The 15pk @ $19.99 = $1.33 / rd
The 24pk @ $29.99 = $1.25 / rd
Also if there is shipping, that obviously jacks the price per up even more per rd.
On the shipping, Cabellas is currently offering special free shipping on any purchase over $50 instead of the normal $100.


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## Tim67

Morning everyone I have been sowing a lot of read and studying in general trying to prepare myself for my first ever Deer hunt. I wanted to ask if Anyone has has any experience with T/C Variflame primer adapter. I read that these burn much cleaner, and increase accuracy. I am more interested in not having all the build up on my breach plug (sorry I shot a T/C Omega z5 50 cal) which I have shooting nice tight groups with 2 bullets; Powerbelt 295grain Aerotip and Shockwave spiral tip 250 grain 100 grain pellets pyrodex. But I am a little confused how these work, it mentions 209 Blackhorn powder. Do you load these adapters w/the blackhorn and use the blackhorn as your charge as well. If anyone can add something to help better explain how these work I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks and a safe and happy holiday weekend toyou all. Tim67


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## buckbob

From what i have read these allow you to use large rifle primers it just an insert that fits into your normal 209 primer breech plug and you insert a large rifle primer into this insert


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## fastwater

buckbob said:


> From what i have read these allow you to use large rifle primers it just an insert that fits into your normal 209 primer breech plug and you insert a large rifle primer into this insert


buckbob is correct in that the Variflame allows you to use large rifle primers. The mention of Blackhorn209 in what you've read is simply stating that the Variflame ignition can be used when shooting different powders including BH209.
But the 'adapters' that the large rifle primers are pressed into will not fit into a stock breech plug. The stock breech plug must be drilled out for the LRP adapter to fit into or you will have to buy the breech plug that comes with the Variflame system that is already drilled out. 
In picture note the larger hole in breech plug on left for primer adapter to fit. 
The primed LRP 'adapter' itself is also shown on the left as well right below that breech plug.
For comparison, the breech plug on the right is the stock breech plug and regular 209 primer.









Also note that the Variflame 'adapter' shown on the lower left of the pic already has a LRP pressed into it and ready to be used. Once primer is used, the primer itself has to be knocked out of the adapter and a new primer pressed in requiring additional,special priming tools to be purchased for seating primers into adapters. Again, the primers press into adapters tightly and cannot be put in with fingers. 
IMO, this is just too much hassle and if I were considering changing up ignition systems, before I went with the Variflame route, I would go with the system that utilizes primed pistol brass as a primer. 

Also, I believe the Variflame system is recommended for shooting loose powder...not pellets. And it is also recommended that if using the stock breech plug, when drilling out the primer pocket to accept the adapter, that the flash hole be drilled out as well to .034.

As far as your breech plug getting dirty, I know you are using Pyrodex pellets, which Pyro is very dirty, but what 209 primers are you using? Some are dirtier than others. I've found that the 209 Remington Premier STS primers to be a bit cleaner than the Federals,CCI,Fiochi or other primers I've used. 
But they all seem to require using a 1/16" drill bit of the flash channel and torch tip cleaner in the flash hole for best accuracy after 6-10 shots.


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## Tim67

Wow lot of really good info there guys, thanks that is exactly what I was looking for on this set up. Sounds like this is not what I'm looking for, not more tools, hassle etc. I have been using Pyrodex and I was using Remington 209 primers, but than was only able to get the Federals so. The last 3 boxes have been federal. Just an fyi was out today while wife went to target I went to Dick's sports and the only bullets they had were tradition Smackdowns; I asked the salesman if that was all they carry and he said this month they will be getting Barnes SST's as well as Powerbelts. So just for those of you who prefer Barnes they should be getting SST's in soon. Buckbob and Fastwater Thank you for the education it is very much appreciated. Great thing about this site is all the really great guys who are always willing to share their knowledge with others. Hope you all enjoy the rest of this holiday weekend, Thanks Tim67


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## mmtchell

Thompson impact ,,, hornady FPB 350 grain bullits 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards .100 grains 777 powder ....shot way better than any sabot ....and puts a wack down on elk ...so whitetails should be no problem


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## Tim67

mmtchell said:


> Thompson impact ,,, hornady FPB 350 grain bullits 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards .100 grains 777 powder ....shot way better than any sabot ....and puts a wack down on elk ...so whitetails should be no problem


Mitchell, 350 grain with 100 grain 777 you said powder not Pellets ? Didn't know 777 came in powder form. In the field, under less than perfect conditions isn't easier to use pellets. Please remember I have been shooting just about a year I am not second guessing you simply asking.


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## Tim67

Have had many back and for the with Fastwater about this topic. He too recommends powder, but I am shooting well with good groups and am not up for a change this close to my first Deer season. I do welcome the advice so Thank you


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## buckbob

I too am a powder fan blackhorn 209 though i think i get a better seat of the bullet with loose powder they say your not supposed to break pellets for maximum accuracy i always felt that when seating bullet that to much pressure on bullet while seating could cause pellet to break up but really its to each his own preference if you like your load then stay with it and thats all i got to say about that


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## Tim67

Thanks BuckBob. I am definitely willing to give powder a try, maybe after hunting season, mainly because I respect the opinion of those of you who I see on this thread regularly and I believe it may help. It's just that it had taken me a lot of time at the range and taking tips from guys on here to get comfortable with the results I am achieving, but after I have given my first season Deer hunting my best effort. Whether I'm successful or not I do plan to see if using powder (Blackhorn 209) makes a difference in my shooting. Tim67


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## mmtchell

Colorado don't alow sabots or scopes or pellets. ..powder only and yes 777 powder at the log cabin in lodi ...great place that specializes in muzzleloaders ..and they have a small rang on site. ..25 and 50 yards ....powder was always more accurate in all my muzzys
...


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## Tim67

Evening All been very busy trying to educate myself as much as possible preparing for Deer gun season. Have been visiting a sister site Ohio Sportsmen, have found many great guys there as well all offering words of wisdom just as many of my ' friends' here have been so willing to take the time to help myself and so many others. Would just like to say Thank you


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## Tim67

Good Evening Sporisfans, just got a quickie I wanted to toss out and see if any O' ya'll ever tried this and if it works. Read that windex w/vinegar works great for cleaning their muzzleloadwr.Anyone tried it yeti??please let me know Thanks All


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## fastwater

Have not used vinegar but have used windex in between shots as a cleaner when I shot black powder and all other black powder subs. It works well in between shots. 
Have never used it though as a final cleaner when I was done shooting. Always used TC #13 bore cleaner for final clean when shooting black powder and all BP subs with the exception of Blackhorn 209. Then a coat of Wonderlube in the bore. 
Believe if I used vinegar, with the acidity in it I would rinse my bbl and any other steel with water after I used it.


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## Tim67

fastwater said:


> Have not used vinegar but have used windex in between shots as a cleaner when I shot black powder and all other black powder subs. It works well in between shots.
> Have never used it though as a final cleaner when I was done shooting. Always used TC #13 bore cleaner for final clean when shooting black powder and all BP subs with the exception of Blackhorn 209. Then a coat of Wonderlube in the bore.
> Believe if I used vinegar, with the acidity in it I would rinse my bbl and any other steel with water after I used it.


Appreciate it, Thanks as usual Stacy hope all is well with you. Well I believe I have made my decision as to where I am going to hunt this season. Had planned to hunt my club as that was part of the reason I joined but seem that they have had problems with few individuals targeting small does so for now they don't plan to allow any members to hunt (Argh!) So I guess its going to be Willard Marsh Wilderness area (public land) have been studying the maps and think if I go back into the woods farther than most are willing to walk I may be good. Well take care Stacy I'm sure I will talk to ya sooner rather than later. Tim (Have also checked out Ohio Sportsman lately


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Appreciate it, Thanks as usual Stacy hope all is well with you. Well I believe I have made my decision as to where I am going to hunt this season. Had planned to hunt my club as that was part of the reason I joined but seem that they have had problems with few individuals targeting small does so for now they don't plan to allow any members to hunt (Argh!) So I guess its going to be Willard Marsh Wilderness area (public land) have been studying the maps and think if I go back into the woods farther than most are willing to walk I may be good. Well take care Stacy I'm sure I will talk to ya sooner rather than later. Tim (Have also checked out Ohio Sportsman lately


Tim,
Just a reminder of the change in the law this year that only allows bucks on public ground after shotgun season.


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## gumbygold

All you need to to clean your ML is hot soapy water. The sooner you clean, the better.


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## Tim67

Fastwater & Gunbygold, Thanks to both of you. I did the hot soapy water used time I cleaned it (last use 8/24) and barrel and all cleaned up great however when I went to range yesterday I noticed my action trigger mechanism was stiff, has never been that way before and I even used some choke tube grease which says for heavy wear parts. Now last night I again cleaned with hot water one bottle w/2 drops of dawn soap another with some windex. Both seem to do about the same but didnt see any major change w/the windex also I really cleaned my trigger action and lightly greased then wiped down all with my gun clothe. It is moving a little easier I hope I didnt mess anything up . I really love this gun, it just fits me and my body frame perfect ( I'm 6'4 and go about 230 lbs) so would really be disappointed if I somehow ruined my rifle. Guess i shall see in a day or two when I get back to the range. Fastwater, I had read that rule, so does that mean, if I only target bucks and hunt public land that I can only harvest 1 deer period! ?? Little clarification would be great, I mean even if I hunted public lands in different counties?? Thanks Guys have a great day!!!


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## fastwater

First, whether on public or private land, only one buck may be taken period from the start of deer season to the end of deer season regardless of what weapon is used to take the buck. Once you shoot a buck, regardless of time or location, you CANNOT shoot another buck.
So the answer to your question:
" If I only target bucks and hunt public land that I can only harvest 1 deer period!"
That answer would be YES...and I'll again add that whether it's private or public land, regardless of county taken, using bow,shotgun,handgun, ml or spear, you are only allowed one buck period throughout the whole 2018/19 deer season period.

You can hunt buck or doe on public land from the beginning of bow season until the end of shotgun season. In that time, you can only take one doe or one buck from public land. If during that time you shoot both a buck and a doe on public land, your deer hunting is done on public land for the 2018/19 deer hunting season.
After the end of the week long shotgun season, you are NOT allowed to shoot a doe on public land period. From the end of shotgun season until the end of deer season...its buck only from public land. But again, remember, you are only allowed one buck from start of 2018/19 season until the end of it. Again, if you have taken a buck already whether on public or private land, the day you shoot that buck you are no longer allowed to shoot another for the rest of the season.
In short...
1)One buck for the entire 2018/19 season period, regardless of how taken or whether on public or private land.
2) On public land You can hunt buck or doe from start of bow season until the end of the week long shotgun season.
3) On public land given the fact that you have NOT already taken a buck on public or private land, you can hunt buck ONLY after the end of week long shotgun season. NO does!


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## Tim67

fastwater said:


> First, whether on public or private land, only one buck may be taken period from the start of deer season to the end of deer season regardless of what weapon is used to take the buck. Once you shoot a buck, regardless of time or location, you CANNOT shoot another buck.
> So the answer to your question:
> " If I only target bucks and hunt public land that I can only harvest 1 deer period!"
> That answer would be YES...and I'll again add that whether it's private or public land, regardless of county taken, using bow,shotgun,handgun, ml or spear, you are only allowed one buck period throughout the whole 2018/19 deer season period.
> 
> You can hunt buck or doe on public land from the beginning of bow season until the end of shotgun season. In that time, you can only take one doe or one buck from public land. If during that time you shoot both a buck and a doe on public land, your deer hunting is done on public land for the 2018/19 deer hunting season.
> After the end of the week long shotgun season, you are NOT allowed to shoot a doe on public land period. From the end of shotgun season until the end of deer season...its buck only from public land. But again, remember, you are only allowed one buck from start of 2018/19 season until the end of it. Again, if you have taken a buck already whether on public or private land, the day you shoot that buck you are no longer allowed to shoot another for the rest of the season.
> In short...
> 1)One buck for the entire 2018/19 season period, regardless of how taken or whether on public or private land.
> 2) On public land You can hunt buck or doe from start of bow season until the end of the week long shotgun season.
> 3) On public land given the fact that you have NOT already taken a buck on public or private land, you can hunt buck ONLY after the end of week long shotgun season. NO does!


Thanks Stacy, I think I got it now, guess didn't realize there was that much to it. But for clarification, since I don't bowhunt. With the 3 periods I can hunt using my muzzleloader (gun week/2 day Dec.hunt/Muzzleloader season) If I am fortunate enough to get A Buck during gun week, than I could hunt these periods for a Doe?? The whole 'after gun week' statement confused me.Am I understanding correctly or could I not target a Doe during Muzzleloader season! ? Thanks as always I don't mean to come off as ignorant as argumentative in any way I would hope you know that from our many back and forth sessions on these pages. Tim


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Thanks Stacy, I think I got it now, guess didn't realize there was that much to it. But for clarification, since I don't bowhunt. With the 3 periods I can hunt using my muzzleloader (gun week/2 day Dec.hunt/Muzzleloader season) If I am fortunate enough to get A Buck during gun week, than I could hunt these periods for a Doe?? The whole 'after gun week' statement confused me.Am I understanding correctly or could I not target a Doe during Muzzleloader season! ? Thanks as always I don't mean to come off as ignorant as argumentative in any way I would hope you know that from our many back and forth sessions on these pages. Tim


Public Land:

You can use your ml in all the gun seasons.

You can shoot buck or antlerless deer/doe in shotgun season from Nov 26- Dec 2

The short added shotgun weekend...Dec 15-16 is BUCK ONLY(make sure at least one side of antler is gonna measure more than 3".)

Muzzle Loader season Jan. 5 - Jan 8 is BUCK ONLY(again, one antler has to measure longer than 3".)

FWIW, if you happen to shoot a spike buck during shotgun between Nov26-Dec-2 and both antlers are less than 3" long, that is considered an antlerless deer and is the same as shooting a doe. So your 1 antlerless/doe tag for public land will be spent.
When hunting between Dec15-16 and Jan5-8, before you pull the trigger on a buck make sure at least one of his antlers is gonna measure better than 3".


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## Tim67

Thank you so much for the clarification, sorry for the bother. But that makes it much easier to understand and I certainly wouldn't want to act inappropriately, break any law or abuse the privilege of being able to pursue these wonderful creatures in our great state. Again Thank you so much, I am sure this information will help others new to the 'Sport' as well. Hope I didn' aggravate you in any way, Thank you and have a great day


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## fastwater

No problem at all Tim. 
You have a great day as well.


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## fastwater

Early on in this thread, and many pages ago, there was a discussion of the terminal performance(or lack thereof) using either the Hornady SST or the T/C shockwave bullets. During that discussion, Lundy suggested the Barnes M/L bullets performed much better on game. My thoughts then was that though my rifle shot either the SST's or Shockwaves(same bullet made by Hornady) very,very well and I had been shooting them for many years, they just didn't expand. But still yet, they were so accurate even out to 200yds that I really didn't want to make the change cause I just knew the Barnes wouldn't fly like the SST's/Shockwave's.

I'm glad to report I was wrong with that assessment.
Changing to the Barnes 250grn TEZ keeping the same charge of 110grns of Blackhorn 209 using Remington STS 209 primers, after re-zeroing, the rifle is now Cloverleafing at 100yds same as before. Rounds are loading okay too!

Shot a few rounds out to 200yds the other day. With another trip to the range, 1click left,1click down, should be able to be satisfactory. Each square is an inch:








Number 3 was all me...I pulled instead of squeezed.

In short, the Barnes 250grn TEZ sabot's are flying just as good as the SST's and Shockwave's and with another trip to the range with further minor adjustments...I'm a happy camper.

Thanks again Lundy...


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## Tim67

fastwater said:


> Early on in this thread, and many pages ago, there was a discussion of the terminal performance(or lack thereof) using either the Hornady SST or the T/C shockwave bullets. During that discussion, Lundy suggested the Barnes M/L bullets performed much better on game. My thoughts then was that though my rifle shot either the SST's or Shockwaves(same bullet made by Hornady) very,very well and I had been shooting them for many years, they just didn't expand. But still yet, they were so accurate even out to 200yds that I really didn't want to make the change cause I just knew the Barnes wouldn't fly like the SST's/Shockwave's.
> 
> I'm glad to report I was wrong with that assessment.
> Changing to the Barnes 250grn TEZ keeping the same charge of 110grns of Blackhorn 209 using Remington STS 209 primers, after re-zeroing, the rifle is now Cloverleafing at 100yds same as before. Rounds are loading okay too!
> 
> Shot a few rounds out to 200yds the other day. With another trip to the range, 1click left,1click down, should be able to be satisfactory. Each square is an inch:
> View attachment 277491
> 
> Number 3 was all me...I pulled instead of squeezed.
> 
> In short, the Barnes 250grn TEZ sabot's are flying just as good as the SST's and Shockwave's and with another trip to the range with further minor adjustments...I'm a happy camper.
> 
> Thanks again Lundy...


Hey Fastwater Glad to hear you got yours firing as you would it to. I too was over at the range yesterday (beautiful day to be outside) and I am very happy to tell you that I was able to get my TC Omega not only grouping again properly but with a few adjustments shooting got her dialed in. First few shoots were so far off had 2 in very upper right corner and 1 bottom left? I made a few adjustments to my zero dial and then began again, second 3 shots were about 5" low and 4-5 left ! Made the appropriate clicks and were much better one final fine tuning and was back to grouping Bullseyes @ 120 yards. So seems we both are feeling better about gun's performance. So have you made any headway on those 6 cords of wood since our last conversation. Have a great day Stacy. Talk to you later Popz1967 Tim


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## fastwater

Thanks Tim. She's real close.
Great to hear you got yours dialed in as well.
Since you didn't call, figured you may have.

Have been working on the wood just about daily. Have about 5 cord now. That's actually half of what I like to start the winter out with. This year Farmers Almanac is predicting a very cold, snowy winter. Especially from Feb. into the end of March. Also saying we will have a very late Spring. Will try and put away 11-12 cord if I can.
Just got in about 20 mins. ago and have a load on the truck now.
It's not normal for me to leave a load on the truck overnight but that one will be there until I get home from church in the morning. Just to tired to fool with it tonight.


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## Tim67

fastwater said:


> Thanks Tim. She's real close.
> Great to hear you got yours dialed in as well.
> Since you didn't call, figured you may have.
> 
> Have been working on the wood just about daily. Have about 5 cord now. That's actually half of what I like to start the winter out with. This year Farmers Almanac is predicting a very cold, snowy winter. Especially from Feb. into the end of March. Also saying we will have a very late Spring. Will try and put away 11-12 cord if I can.
> Just got in about 20 mins. ago and have a load on the truck now.
> It's not normal for me to leave a load on the truck overnight but that one will be there until I get home from church in the morning. Just to tired to fool with it tonight.


Well sounds like you have really been at, I am glad to hear you say you left it in the truck rather than push yourself too much. I hadn't heard the almanac forecast yet, personally I used to love winter, but since I have had my knees replaced, have fell on the ice walking my dogs and is just to painful and I end up elevating and Icing. My knees.Got some of those slip on spikes. They stretch over your shoes/boots so hope those will help. Get some rest my friend and hope your Sunday in a good one. Tim


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## fastwater

Thanks Tim...will do!


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## Smitty82

Took Monday Tuesday off to go hunting, wasn't able to fill my tag. That wind made it rough. 38 days till muzzleloader season!


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## Tim67

Smitty82 said:


> Took Monday Tuesday off to go hunting, wasn't able to fill my tag. That wind made it rough. 38 days till muzzleloader season!


Right there with you Smitty82, about 5 weeks before season started I had my TC Omega 50 cal out and removed barrel to do a total cleaning, well trigger mechanism stuck and broke actual trigger. So I had to send it in for repair. Called Thompson Center Monday said bout 1-2 more weeks. So hoping I can get out for the 'Bonus weekend" and Muzzleloader season. Hoping that at LEAST there won't be so many other hunters out in the woods. Figure maybe if there's less people out we will have a better chance. Good luck and be safe out there.


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## Harry1959

Got away from the SST. Omega likes the 290 gr Barnes spit fire t-ez real well and most on here seem to like them and say their terminal performance is much better than the sst/shockwave. Also took some more good advice from Lundy and fastwater and bought some of the Mmp thin black sabots. Those fit well in my tight bore and shot the Hornady xtp very well too. Plus buying the sabots and lead separately saves some $$$$.


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## Smitty82

Punched my tag this morning but not without a hiccup. Pulled the trigger primer went pop, but no boom. Wait a min put a second primer in and it shot like normal. Never had that happen to me with the blackhorn yet, I use the cci 209 mag primers too. So I don’t know, just glad the deers didn’t get spooked when the first primer went off. I’ll say my heart sunk when it didn’t go boom, I’m sure glad the second one did...
On a side note, the Barnes t-ez performed amazing, way better than the sst I used last year.


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## Alaskan20

Last year I switched to Barnes and tried blackhorn. It is definitely cleaner burning for sure but both me and my dad had hang fires and miss fires. Magnum primers, new breach plugs and all. I’m not sold. Switched back to t7. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lundy

When you say you were using magnum primers which ones were you using? All magnum primers are not created equal. Just because a box has magnum printed on it for marketing purposes does not make it so.

If you want to eliminate hangfires use the Federal 209A and the CCI magnums, leave all others on the shelf in the store if your gun, plug and load has need for a magum primer for reliable ignition. I have 100's of rounds through a bunch of different MZ's with smokeless and Blackhorn with 0 misfires.

It could be more than just a primer concern also. How are you taking care of the gun? Is there any oil residue left from the cleaning. Has the gun been exposed to changing temperatures and humidity levels since it has been loaded? The single largest culprit for misfires in MZ's is moisture either from condensation when you take that gun from the nice warm house out into cold weather and it sweats or just being out hunting in bad weather If you know you are hunting the 4 days of MZ season the gun should stay outside and never go back in the house. As a precaution I never leave a gun loaded for more than 2 days, if I have been in rainy weather I fire and reload at the end of every day.. I will shoot it and reload just to be absolute sure that when I pull the trigger it goes boom immediately.


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## Smitty82

As stated before I use cci 209m primers, I also have the appropriate breech plug, I also clean my gun according to blackhorn website. My gun was loaded right before i went out to the blind. I don’t keep my gun outside. Never had to keep my gun outside using tripple7, and I’ve never kept my gun outside when going to the range. My personal opinion is that a gun shouldn’t have to be climate controlled to work. This is the first time this has happened, just so happened to be during an important shot but thankfully the second shot went off.


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## Burkcarp1

Smitty82 said:


> As stated before I use cci 209m primers, I also have the appropriate breech plug, I also clean my gun according to blackhorn website. My gun was loaded right before i went out to the blind. I don’t keep my gun outside. Never had to keep my gun outside using tripple7, and I’ve never kept my gun outside when going to the range. My personal opinion is that a gun shouldn’t have to be climate controlled to work. This is the first time this has happened, just so happened to be during an important shot but thankfully the second shot went off.


Weather like this isn’t so critical to keep gun ioutside ( I do regardless)but if it’s really cold I don’t care what powder you use you will problems with your gun not going off eventually. Going from inside to outside isn’t as bad as going from outside to inside. But each to his own...


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## Alaskan20

I was using cci mag primers. The misfires and hang fires I had were at the range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harry1959

IMO blackthorn 209 is superior in all aspects....... except it’s harder to ignite. as was said cci mag or federal 209 are supposed to be the hottest primer. Also be sure to clean breechplug by hand with appropriate sized drill bit, see blackhorn site. The crud builds up quickly in mine


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## fastwater

Smitty82 and Alaskan20
What kind of rifles do you have?

Like Lundy, have fired many different brands of inlines using BH209.
The only ignition issues I've ever had using CCI magnum shotgun primers, Federal 209A or Remington 209 STS primers has all gone directly back to the breech plug not being thoroughly cleaned by using the proper drill bits reaming built up carbon out of the flash channel/flash hole. Also, enlarging the flash hole on the breech plug to 1/32" has been something I've done to every breech plug I've worked on...both mine and friends.
If your flash channel is 1/8", flash hole is 1/32" and your primers are sealing correctly, BH209 will go boom if it's dry.
Also, not knowing what ml'ers/breech plug you guys have, I might add that like Lundy stated "primers are not all created equal"...that goes for their design/shape as well. The Remington STS's have a more of a taper to them versus the CCI's and Win. In some breech plug styles, the STS's seal better due to the taper.
FWIW, I know Lundy didn't mention the STS primers but I, along with several I know, have never had ignition failures with them after the flash hole enlargement.

By the way Lundy, the Barnes bullets smoked 5 deer this weekend with wonderful results. Our whole crew is now using them. For those that didn't bang/flop, sure was nice not having to trail a well hit deer that was just spotting blood for 200yds. 
Thanks again!


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## Alaskan20

I shoot an older model encore and my dads is an omega. Both plugs were cleaned thoroughly and reamed out with drill bits and tip cleaners. I’ve NEVER an ignition problem with pyrodex or t7 out of either gun. I know blackhorn burns cleaner. Won’t argue that at all, but in my guns with the experiences I’ve had I’m not gonna take the chance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fastwater

Smitty82 said:


> As stated before I use cci 209m primers, I also have the appropriate breech plug, I also clean my gun according to blackhorn website. My gun was loaded right before i went out to the blind. *I don’t keep my gun outside. Never had to keep my gun outside using tripple7,* and I’ve never kept my gun outside when going to the range. My personal opinion is that a gun shouldn’t have to be climate controlled to work. This is the first time this has happened, just so happened to be during an important shot but thankfully the second shot went off.


Smitty82, I hope your luck continues to hold out but really Doesn't matter what powder it is, it's always a good practice to leave not only the gun outside during a cold ml season along with your filled speed loaders and primers your going to use as well. All powders collect moisture like sponges. Some worse than others and IMO, BH209 is the best I've found for being 'weather resistant' also. 
As Lundy stated, going from cold outside to warm inside 'regardless of powder used' is never a good thing due to chances of condensation.
Both rifle and possibles bag stays outside from the onset of ml season until the end. I'm not hunting today, but plan on it tomorrow and rifle is uncapped and loaded in the garage as we speak.
To each their own but that's a practice I've used for over 40 yrs since using real BP and about every substitute you can think of.


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## Tim67

Should talk to Fastwater about your misfire problems and cleaning, when to load etc


fastwater said:


> Smitty82, I hope your luck continues to hold out but really Doesn't matter what powder it is, it's always a good practice to leave not only the gun outside during a cold ml season along with your filled speed loaders and primers your going to use as well. All powders collect moisture like sponges. Some worse than others and IMO, BH209 is the best I've found for being 'weather resistant' also.
> As Lundy stated, going from cold outside to warm inside 'regardless of powder used' is never a good thing due to chances of condensation.
> Both rifle and possibles bag stays outside from the onset of ml season until the end. I'm not hunting today, but plan on it tomorrow and rifle is uncapped and loaded in the garage as we speak.
> To each their own but that's a practice I've used for over 40 yrs since using real BP and about every substitute you can think of.


Fastwater, I wasn't aware that what you stated above, about leaving ml outside made any difference. Logically it definitely makes sense, being that most any metal will gather condensation when moved from cold to warm or warm to cold to a lesser extent. Glad that it came up in the conversation or I would have remained ignorant to this fact. Do you take any other precautions like having cotton or any material in muzzle to further protect powder or barrel. Just wondered, thanks again for the info.


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## bobk

I wouldn’t suggest putting anything down the muzzle to protect the powder. Place a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle if you are worried about moisture.


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## bobk

Alaskan20 said:


> I shoot an older model encore and my dads is an omega. Both plugs were cleaned thoroughly and reamed out with drill bits and tip cleaners. I’ve NEVER an ignition problem with pyrodex or t7 out of either gun. I know blackhorn burns cleaner. Won’t argue that at all, but in my guns with the experiences I’ve had I’m not gonna take the chance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I went with a breech plug that had a larger flash channel on my older encore. Might be worth checking out. I’ve since sold the encore for a newer model that has no issues with 209.


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## fastwater

Tim67 said:


> Should talk to Fastwater about your misfire problems and cleaning, when to load etc
> 
> Fastwater, I wasn't aware that what you stated above, about leaving ml outside made any difference. Logically it definitely makes sense, being that most any metal will gather condensation when moved from cold to warm or warm to cold to a lesser extent. Glad that it came up in the conversation or I would have remained ignorant to this fact. Do you take any other precautions like having cotton or any material in muzzle to further protect powder or barrel. Just wondered, thanks again for the info.





bobk said:


> I wouldn’t suggest putting anything down the muzzle to protect the powder. Place a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle if you are worried about moisture.


What bobk said about using the electrical tape over the bore is excellent advice especially if hunting in the rain. And you don't have to remove it when shooting...just shoot through it. 
I cut the fingertips out of latex gloves and use them. Always have some in my possibles bag. They stretch over the end of the bbl very well. 



bobk said:


> I went with a breech plug that had a larger flash channel on my older encore. Might be worth checking out. I’ve since sold the encore for a newer model that has no issues with 209.


Good point bobk on the older model encore breech plugs. Seems I've drilled the flash channel to 1/8" and the flash hole to 1/32" on a couple of them. 
Even on the newer Encore models/breech plugs, I enlarge there flash holes to 1/32". The flash channel on those are already 1/8".

Soon as the guy can get it to me, will be drilling out the channel and hole of an older CVA Wolf breech plug as he cannot reliably shoot BM209. But his rifle shoots everything else just fine.
Some may ask, why would he bother?
The answer to that is he has watched the rest of us be able to shoot 10-15 shots without swabbing the bore using BH209 and still load very easily and he has trouble loading after his first shot. 
He also sees how easy it is for us to clean our rifles after a shooting session. We are done in half the time he is. And not having to buy/carry different cleaning solvents than we use on our shotguns, pistols etc. is yet another plus. 
I don't think Lundy sells BH209...and I know that I don't. I can assure everyone that most likely Lundy doesn't make a dime off of promoting it either. Again, I know I don't.
But there's not many modern inlines out there that won't shoot it or can't be made to shoot it. 
And from all the positive characteristics of BH209 that have proven to be better than everything else I have shot, if a rifle/breech plug needs a few minor modifications to shoot it, IMHO, it's well worth it.


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## Smitty82

Been waiting for spring valley to open back up so i can get out and shoot my ML. Ill still be using blackhorn 209 this year even tho i had a hickup back in jan. I did not shoot a primer before i loaded it last season. Do you guys shoot a primer before loading to clean out the breech? I'm wondering if this would be good practice, or just a waste of a primer?


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## M.Magis

I always run a dry patch and fire a cap or two.


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## fastwater

Smitty82 said:


> Been waiting for spring valley to open back up so i can get out and shoot my ML. Ill still be using blackhorn 209 this year even tho i had a hickup back in jan. I did not shoot a primer before i loaded it last season. Do you guys shoot a primer before loading to clean out the breech? I'm wondering if this would be good practice, or just a waste of a primer?


Yes...I shoot a primer or two off as well. 
If it's cold, I shoot my primers off then swab the bore with a dry patch. Figure if the bbls cold, when I fire the primers off, the heat from the primers may create some condensation in the bore and I want to remove it before dumping in powder.
Also, drilled the breech plug flash hole to 1/32"(.031) which helps with the Blackhorn igniting better in cold weather. If you are shooting a TC the factory/stock breech plug flash hole size is .028.
Also, make sure you are using a good hot 209 shotgun primer such as CCI magnum shotgun primer.


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## Harry1959

BH 209 is my favorite powder, it is however harder to ignite than others. Two years ago my buddy used my omega and shot 5 primers and it would not ignite.....that particular morning it was 7-9 degrees below zero(without wind chill). Powder was fresh, dry and breech was clean. The guy at BH said it needed cci mag or federal 209 a primers in extremely cold weather.


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## fastwater

^^^Yes it does...and again, enlarging the breech plug flash hole helps tremendously as well.


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## Smitty82

fastwater said:


> ^^^Yes it does...and again, enlarging the breech plug flash hole helps tremendously as well.


I use the bh 209 breech plug factory cva, and I only use cci mag 209 primers. If you remember this post from Jan You’ll know I had my first no boom with bh. I had never had in issue before. But I also have never fired a primer or swabbed the barrel before loading, so I’m going to start making that a habit this season.


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## bobk

Along with shooting a primer before loading it’s best to keep the muzzleloader outside once you’ve started hunting. Bringing it in each night will increase the odds of moisture buildup. I just leave my encore in the garage each night after hunting to keep the temperature fluctuations to a minimum.


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## Harry1959

bobk said:


> Along with shooting a primer before loading it’s best to keep the muzzleloader outside once you’ve started hunting. Bringing it in each night will increase the odds of moisture buildup. I just leave my encore in the garage each night after hunting to keep the temperature fluctuations to a minimum.


Me too


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## buckeyebowman

Flathead76 said:


> I quit shooting them years ago. They do not expand well at all. It's like shoving a pencil through a deer. Went back to shooting a hornady xtp bullet in 240 grain. The sst bullet is more accurate at over 100 yards but I rarely get or take a shot over 75 yards.


The Hornady XTP was what I was shooting. My BIL shoots the same brand of ML, Traditions, but not the same model. His rifle loves Powerbelt bullets, so that's what I started with, couldn't get them to group worth a crap! Tried TC Shockwaves, same thing! Tried the Hornady's and finally found some decent accuracy.

Then I got the urge to try the Blackhorn 209 powder, and called Traditions to ask some questions. After telling them about my progression through various styles of bullets, the rep expressed surprise that my BIL's rifle like Powerbelts since they do NOT recommend any of their rounds for their guns. He did like the Hornady's, but said that with the BH 209, they were getting great accuracy with that powder, along with the Traditions Smackdown bullet. Turned out I got my best groups ever.



bobk said:


> Along with shooting a primer before loading it’s best to keep the muzzleloader outside once you’ve started hunting. Bringing it in each night will increase the odds of moisture buildup. I just leave my encore in the garage each night after hunting to keep the temperature fluctuations to a minimum.


My Uncle had a hunting cabin in PA way back in the day, and he would do this with his center fire rifle! He told me, "Once that rifle gets cold, it stays cold!" He related a story where a buddy of his who was up to hunt, cleaned and lubed the living crap out of his rifle the evening before opening day. My Uncle just watched him and said nothing.

The next morning they went out to hunt on a bitterly cold day. The guy had a dandy buck step out in front of him, and the gun wouldn't go off. Turns out the lube that the guy slathered the gun with got thick in the cold, and wouldn't let the firing pin go off with enough force to ignite the primer! The only way to recycle the firing pin was to jack the current round out and run another one into the chamber.

At lunch, he brought those bullets and his rifle into the cabin, and told my Uncle what happened. He looked at the primers on those bullets, and there were barely visible mars on the surface where the firing pin hit. My Uncle knew what had happened right off, and helped his friend correct the problem.


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## Smitty82

This past January ML season was not that cold, I take my ML inside at night and I’m not going to change that. January 2018 ML season was like 10 degrees and that night my ML was next to my bed in a 70 degree house and had no issues shooting. January 2017 was basic January weather and again had zero issues shooting it. Like I said January 2019 was the first time I didn’t have a boom, and I’m under the impression it was because the breech wasn’t dry enough from cleaning not bc I didn’t leave it outside. Not saying you guy are wrong for leaving your rifle outside but I haven’t found any personal credible evidence that not leaving my rifle outside caused enough condensation to not fire. The second primer I had put in fired normal. I will start making sure everything is dry, shoot a primer before loading, and I will keep my rifle inside and see what happens this year. I will post my results.


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## Ten Percent-er

just so you guys know.... I have a CVA Wolf and shoot the BH209....they make a "replacement" breech plug specifically designed for BH209...might have paid $20 or $30 for it...don't remember or where i found it, but the load I've worked up can print sub-MOA groups....very impressive....better than some rifles I have...good luck out there


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## Smitty82

Ten Percent-er said:


> just so you guys know.... I have a CVA Wolf and shoot the BH209....they make a "replacement" breech plug specifically designed for BH209...might have paid $20 or $30 for it...don't remember or where i found it, but the load I've worked up can print sub-MOA groups....very impressive....better than some rifles I have...good luck out there


you can order the BH 209 CVA specific breech plugs through cva, muzzle-loaders.com, and most other stores that carry cva parts.


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## Lundy

Smitty82 said:


> Not saying you guy are wrong for leaving your rifle outside but I haven’t found any personal credible evidence that not leaving my rifle outside caused enough condensation to not fire.


Right up until you do I had Pyrodex 25 years ago turn into a hard mass in the barrel from 4 days of condensation. I always just leave my gun in my vehicle each night. I never leave a load in for more than 2 days of hunting no matter what the weather. If it is rainy outside I unload at the end of every day and reload the next morning, again with my gun staying outside. I just can't justify not doing everything I can to make sure the gun will go bang when I want it to. It is not that difficult to take PROVEN precautions. To each his own.


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## fastwater

What is the dimensions of the flash channel/hole in the new BH 209 CVA specific breech plug? And how are you cleaning it?

There are two reasons I ask:
1: I'm not familiar with the new CVA BH breech plug and the flash channel/hole sizes in them. What size drill bit are you using the clean the flash channel/hole out?
2: the TC breech plugs designed for shooting BH have a flash hole of .028. And that is usually fine with temps we hunt in around Ohio. But BH also recommends a flash hole between .030-.035 when shooting in extremely cold weather. And if you remember correctly, we had an unusually cold ml season a few years back. I too, had a misfire during that year as well. First one I ever had...and I've been using BH in several different inlines since it came out. Hence the reason for enlarging the flash hole in my TC BP to 1/32.

FWIW...when I had my old Optima (and before CVA came out with the new BH breech plug) to enable us to shoot BH, just drilled out the original breech plug. Flash channel was drilled to 5/32, used a "65 drill bit on the flash hole and tapped it for a vent liner. Thinking back, I believe the vent liners were the same ones used for the Savage ML and had an opening of between .030-.035( can't remember exactly now) which is the size opening Blackhorn recommends especially when shooting in extremely cold climates.
There were 4-5 of us using the Optimas at this time so this breech plug mod was done on all of them and as far as I know, there has not been any cold weather issues from them. Though I don't have my Optima anymore, my son has it and has never had any issues. And the nice thing about the vent liner is that if the flash hole in the vent liner starts enlarging to big from flame cutting, you just unscrew the vent liner and screw in another.



bobk said:


> Along with shooting a primer before loading it’s best to keep the muzzleloader outside once you’ve started hunting. Bringing it in each night will increase the odds of moisture buildup. I just leave my encore in the garage each night after hunting to keep the temperature fluctuations to a minimum.


Absolutely great advice right there!!!
I not only leave my rifle outside but possibles bag,...including loaded speed loaders, range rod and everything else related outside.


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## Smitty82

What do people do who have a cold rifle then get in a blind that is heated?


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## Lundy

Smitty82 said:


> What do people do who have a cold rifle then get in a blind that is heated?


That was very common occurrence for me and the blind is normally gradual warm up, some condensation in that situation is unavoidable, nothing I could do about that. However I can avoid unnecessary condensation by controlling what I can control, leaving my gun outside when the weather is cold.


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## bobk

Smitty82 said:


> What do people do who have a cold rifle then get in a blind that is heated?


I’m not lucky to have a heated blind so I can’t answer that. I’m guessing that the temp change isn’t that much and is pretty slow in developing. When a barrel has been in sub freezing temps and then quickly introduced to 70 degrees it’s going to create condensation. 
I’ve seen the barrel sweat from the temperature change so it’s a precaution I take. We all do things differently. All the guys that I hunt with do the same thing as I do. Certainly not saying it’s the right way but it eliminates another chance of a **** fizzle when the trigger is pulled.


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## fastwater

Lundy said:


> Right up until you do I had Pyrodex 25 years ago turn into a hard mass in the barrel from 4 days of condensation. I always just leave my gun in my vehicle each night. I never leave a load in for more than 2 days of hunting no matter what the weather. If it is rainy outside I unload at the end of every day and reload the next morning, again with my gun staying outside. I just can't justify not doing everything I can to make sure the gun will go bang when I want it to. It is not that difficult to take PROVEN precautions. To each his own.


Yep...going back many years shooting the old flints/cap locks using original BP then moving onto the substitutes(Pyro,t-7,cleanshot, etc) sure taught hard lessons back then that you dont soon forget.
Nothing like hunting in the cold drizzling rain everyday (think I was about 12-13 then) to raise your old,heavy TC hammer gun the last day of season on a very nice buck standing no more than 40 yds out, pulling the trigger to only hear the dreaded sound of that #11 cap go off and no kaboom or smoke afterwards. Especially when your dad had told you every evening to fire the thing off, swab the bore and put a fresh charge in. Ask me how I know...
And the very unusual thing about that buck is he ran out to about 80 yds, stopped and started looking around as if he didn't know what was going on. Letting me recap to get yet another failed shot off.
At day's end...we ended up removing nipple and priming with some fresh powder and was able to discharge load. I was thankful cause I knew that if we had to pull the PRB, dad was gonna let me have the privilege of doing the pulling.


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## fastwater

Smitty82 said:


> What do people do who have a cold rifle then get in a blind that is heated?





Lundy said:


> That was very common occurrence for me and the blind is normally gradual warm up, some condensation in that situation is unavoidable, nothing I could do about that. However I can avoid unnecessary condensation by controlling what I can control, leaving my gun outside when the weather is cold.


...and just think...if you keep your rifle inside at night...take it out into the cold...then into a heated blind, back out into the cold and into the warm house again, that's creating even double the condensation every day you do that.
Besides, like bobk, ive never been fortunate enough to hunt out of a blind heated to the same 70degree temp my house is. I have hunted in a few that were in the 40 degree area when the outside temps were around 20 or so with no issue.
Like both bobk and Lundy have stated...just have to give ourselves every edge we can when using the front stuffers.

Think this has been covered here on this thread already, if not then one another, but worth a reminder...hunting in rain, sleet or when snowing, it's a very good idea to keep the business end of the muzzle covered as well. Some use a piece of tape...some use a finger tip cut out of a latex glove. I prefer the latex glove fingertip method as it stretchs on the bbl nicely and I don't have to worry about it getting wet and coming off. And while that's on my mind...will go cut a few new tips and stick them in my possibles bag.


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## Lundy

For me it really just boils down to with all of the money and time spent trying to get into a position to pull the trigger I will not take any shortcuts that could possibly make the gun not go boom.


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## Smitty82

I totally understand and respect what you're saying. I don't want to come off looking like i'm disregarding your experiences. Im not. I just think there are allot of variables. How long would you say it takes a rifle to get acclimated going from say 68 degrees to 10 degrees? i mean theoretically simply keeping the rifle in the trunk of a car or bed of a pick up when transporting should be enough time to bring it to temperature, then when you get to where you're going fire a primer, swab the breach, then load and be on your way to your hunting spot right?


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## Smitty82

Either way, all this talk has made me ready to shoot my ML and for the coming Jan ML Season. Hopefully 2020 will be colder than it was in 2019. Now if spring valley would open back up that would be great!


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## fastwater

Smitty82 said:


> I totally understand and respect what you're saying. I don't want to come off looking like i'm disregarding your experiences. Im not. I just think there are allot of variables. How long would you say it takes a rifle to get acclimated going from say 68 degrees to 10 degrees? i mean theoretically simply keeping the rifle in the trunk of a car or bed of a pick up when transporting should be enough time to bring it to temperature, then when you get to where you're going fire a primer, swab the breach, then load and be on your way to your hunting spot right?


IMO, it's not the going from warm to cold that creates the condensation. It's going from cold to warm that does so. If you have a charge in the rifle, the powder acts like a sponge absorbing all the moisture. If I was adamant about bringing my rifle in every night, it would be discharged every night, allowed to get warm, disassembled, dried out and reloaded every morning.
Think about a fuel tank setting either outside or in the garage that's not full. The fluctuating air temps(cold to warm) where there is no fuel is where droplets of condensation is going to form on the inside of the tank. The very reason it's recommended to keep tanks as full as possible all the time.


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## fastwater

Smitty82 said:


> Either way, all this talk has made me ready to shoot my ML and for the coming Jan ML Season. Hopefully 2020 will be colder than it was in 2019. Now if spring valley would open back up that would be great!


Lol!
Went to the range last Sat and shot for 5-6 hours.
Three of us went and had a great day.
Another fella showed up with a new Winchester 350 Legend that I had the privilege of helping him zero in. It's the first 350 I've been around and dont know the terminal effect or range of that rd on Deer, but I have to say...it was one soft shooting rifle.
We are planning another trip here shortly.

And Lundy...the Barnes TEZ's are still 'dotting the I's' just as good as the Hornady SST's and the TC Shockwave's ever did.
With a 'proven' day and night difference on the terminal effect. Absolutely no more same size hole in...same size hole out with little to no blood trail. The Barnes expand without fail to a beautiful petal. If not DRT, they surely don't make it far with a very ample blood trail.
Barnes owes you some $. 
To date, a total of nine of us have now converted to them.
Thanks again.


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## Smitty82

fastwater said:


> Lol!
> Went to the range last Sat and shot for 5-6 hours.
> Three of us went and had a great day.
> Another fella showed up with a new Winchester 350 Legend that I had the privilege of helping him zero in. It's the first 350 I've been around and dont know the terminal effect or range of that rd on Deer, but I have to say...it was one soft shooting rifle.
> We are planning another trip here shortly.
> 
> And Lundy...the Barnes TEZ's are still 'dotting the I's' just as good as the Hornady SST's and the TC Shockwave's ever did.
> With a 'proven' day and night difference on the terminal effect. Absolutely no more same size hole in...same size hole out with little to no blood trail. The Barnes expand without fail to a beautiful petal. If not DRT, they surely don't make it far with a very ample blood trail.
> Barnes owes you some $.
> To date, a total of nine of us have now converted to them.
> Thanks again.


100% couldn’t agree more, 2019 was the first year I used the Barnes tez and it was like you said night and day difference on expansion.


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## MagicMarker

I used Powerbeats and pyrodex for years then switched to triple seven for easier cleanup. Never had a charge not go off. My shots are hundred yds or less. Have left gun loaded for days with no ill effects. Keep it simple


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## Tim67

Just a comment on covering the end of the barrel . If you can't get latex gloves or whatnot I found at my dollar General store in they party supplies area, they have bags of like 100 very small 'water' balloons that I found work nicely and for a dollar you can't beat it. Opening Days a coming quick looking forward, good luck to all and above all be safe, Happy Thanksgiving and can't wait to read about all the successful and not so successful hunts in the weeks to come!!!


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## Alaskan20

OK after agreeing Thompson center shockwave performance on these posts my father and I have tried every bullet Barnes makes and can not come up with a load that shoots good past 100 yards out of four different guns. We have tried Blackhorn, 777 and parodex. Even tried crushed rib sabots. My question is why is Barnes the only one that makes a solid copper bullet? I know federal has something but mixed reviews... I’ve been playing around for 2 yrs now. 


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## fastwater

Alaskan20 said:


> OK after agreeing Thompson center shockwave performance on these posts my father and I have tried every bullet Barnes makes and *can not come up with a load that shoots good past 100 yards out of four different guns. *We have tried Blackhorn, 777 and parodex. Even tried crushed rib sabots. My question is why is Barnes the only one that makes a solid copper bullet? I know federal has something but mixed reviews... I’ve been playing around for 2 yrs now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My goodness...that's a lot of rifles for at least one not to shoot any Barnes bullets well.
Our experience has been just the opposite.
In our group of nine guys, there are TC's, CVA's, a Remington and a Knight. Most of the guys previously used either Hornady SST's or TC Shockwave's and have all switched to Barnes with equal or better accuracy than they had before.
One guy with an older TC ordered the TEZ's and they fit a bit too loose so we switched the blue sabot's to the black HPH 12 sabot's using the same bullet and he is shooting quit accurate out to 200yds...same as the rest of the group.
What rifles are you shooting/trying, charges and primers used etc?
Would you mind stating your loading sequence as far as whether you are loading on a wet(bore butter)or dry bore?


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## Tim67

Alaskan20. Just wanted to say that I have had a few different issues with my TC Omega. And Fastwater has helped me a great deal, thought I would let you know. Share loading, cleaning info. I believe it'd be! Worth your while. He was and has been a great help to be


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## fastwater

Thank you Tim.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again.


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## Alaskan20

fastwater said:


> My goodness...that's a lot of rifles for at least one not to shoot any Barnes bullets well.
> Our experience has been just the opposite.
> In our group of nine guys, there are TC's, CVA's, a Remington and a Knight. Most of the guys previously used either Hornady SST's or TC Shockwave's and have all switched to Barnes with equal or better accuracy than they had before.
> One guy with an older TC ordered the TEZ's and they fit a bit too loose so we switched the blue sabot's to the black HPH 12 sabot's using the same bullet and he is shooting quit accurate out to 200yds...same as the rest of the group.
> What rifles are you shooting/trying, charges and primers used etc?
> Would you mind stating your loading sequence as far as whether you are loading on a wet(bore butter)or dry bore?


Ok the 4 guns are an older encore, older omega, triumph and a new traditions buckstalker. All are shot with clean and dry bores. Primers ranged from cci Winchester 777 and even the magnum primers wen shooting the buckhorn. Tried various powder charges crushed rib sabots and every make available from Barnes. No matter what I do the shockwaves are tack drivers out to 150 yds. Frustrating!!


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## dirtandleaves

Barnes TEZ 250 gr over 90 gr of loose 777 and a W209 primer out of my CVA Apex foe me. Extremely accurate load and the terminal performance is amazing. Have killed a pile of deer with this load/gun and the majority didn't take another step. Hit a touch high on a buck a shot last year (high lungs) and he holds the record for farthest a deer has made it yet......about 60-70 yds


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## Lundy

May I ask what volume powder charges you were trying?

There is no reason you should not be able to get the Barnes to shoot, especially 4 different guns. I was going to politely suggest that it may not be the guns or the loads that is the problem but you said you get good groups with the shockwaves. 

My friends Omega had an extremely tight bore and we fixed his problem with a slightly smaller OD sabot.


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## Alaskan20

Lundy said:


> May I ask what volume powder charges you were trying?
> 
> There is no reason you should not be able to get the Barnes to shoot, especially 4 different guns. I was going to politely suggest that it may not be the guns or the loads that is the problem but you said you get good groups with the shockwaves.
> 
> My friends Omega had an extremely tight bore and we fixed his problem with a slightly smaller OD sabot.


We’ve tried anywhere from 80-110 on blackhorn and 100-150 on 777. I shoot 150 777 pellets with shockwaves... 


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## Smitty82

I shoot 70 grains by weight of blackhorn and the 250g tez’s shoot just as good as the sst’s did out of my cva optima v2 @ 100 yards. I will say that I tried the 250 tmz’s boat tails with the same 70 grains by weight and at 100 yards my group opened up quite a bit.


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## Lundy

Did you try the boat tail or the flat base Barnes? In my smokeless MZ's I could not get the boat tails to shoot as well as the flat base. I could send you some .458 Barnes originals with the orange sabots to try. They are 300 gr. They produce some extra recoil shooting a 300 gr bullet however. My favorite from just about any 50 cal shooting any powder was always the Expander MZ


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## Alaskan20

Lundy said:


> Did you try the boat tail or the flat base Barnes? In my smokeless MZ's I could not get the boat tails to shoot as well as the flat base. I could send you some .458 Barnes originals with the orange sabots to try. They are 300 gr. They produce some extra recoil shooting a 300 gr bullet however. My favorite from just about any 50 cal shooting any powder was always the Expander MZ


I have tried both flats and boat tail. The original Barnes I could hardly get down the barrel. (Omega and encore) I will get another pack of the tmz. ( think they are flat and try again.


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## Lundy

If you have not already, please read this

https://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/


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## Alaskan20

Lundy said:


> If you have not already, please read this
> 
> https://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/


Lundy I wonder which sabot the black shock waves are? They load great 


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## Burkcarp1

Who is going to shoot today? I think we are.


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## bobk

Burkcarp1 said:


> Who is going to shoot today? I think we are.


If my self induced headache goes away we are going to do some shooting.


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## 0utwest

Alaskan20 said:


> Ok the 4 guns are an older encore, older omega, triumph and a new traditions buckstalker. All are shot with clean and dry bores. Primers ranged from cci Winchester 777 and even the magnum primers wen shooting the buckhorn. Tried various powder charges crushed rib sabots and every make available from Barnes. No matter what I do the shockwaves are tack drivers out to 150 yds. Frustrating!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just curious if you are using the bullet aligner ? Not sure if that would make much of a difference but I use it every time and my knight rifle shoots almost like a high power rifle with just about any barnes bullet I put into it . Good luck and hope you get it shooting good .


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## Alaskan20

0utwest said:


> Just curious if you are using the bullet aligner ? Not sure if that would make much of a difference but I use it every time and my knight rifle shoots almost like a high power rifle with just about any barnes bullet I put into it . Good luck and hope you get it shooting good .


Yes sir I am


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## Smitty82

So although i didn't kill a deer this year during ML, i did try something new. last season i had a no boom when i pulled the trigger. I do keep my rifle inside at night. but last year i did not swab and shoot a primer before loading. This year I did swab and shot a primer before loading. Put a latex glove finger over the barrel because it was raining on sat. After the evening hunt i safely discharged my rifle and had zero issues. I did this same process on sunday the day after and had no issues again. It was a very damp weekend. For now on i will swab and shoot a primer before loading.


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