# Big-name brand gripe



## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

OK, I don't want to start a big controversy here, so if we could keep this civil that would be really nice 

That said! I was recently discussing gear brands with a couple of guides. Since my rain jacket was soaking through at the time, I was certainly in the market for a new one. I mentioned simms jackets in general, and how I was looking forward to the new paclite gore-tex shell.

The guide, who was wearing a very old pair of simms gore-tex waders (but no other simms gear) scoffed. He said that his shop had once been a simms dealer, and that they were part of the testing staff. Now, when you guide every day pretty much all year - and they do, being so blessed with great water for a dozen species - your gear can take a major hit. I would expect that Simms would have expected this harsh treatment and would build bomb-proof stuff as a result. 

Apparently not so. He revealed that after they had sent in enough critical reviews that actually found flaws with gear, they were dismissed from testing. This very much soured me on Simms gear in general, almost immediately. They have been good enough to me, and I appreciate that, but I have had my fair share of problems. My headwaters boots cut their own laces b/c of the way the lace holes were designed, which saved the company machining time on its injection mold tooling. They saved time but it took me a while to blood knot laces together with frost on my boots and my fingers going numb.

So there's that. There was another inexplicable failure in those boots, but Simms stood behind them that time and I ended up with a better pair of boots, so I can't complain about that. I can complain that a tin of their new star cleats costs more than a new set of SOLES with carbide studs for my dad's Korkers.

Apparently Orvis was even worse to said guide, who had a pair of their top-of-the-line waders at the time (probably 2006). He had a leak within 1 month with the first set, sent them back. New set leaks again within a few trips. Sends them back.

Orvis says he's too hard on them!

Now, I know that there is such a thing as 'too hard' on equipment, but your very top of the line gear for fly fishing needs to be durable if you hope to be taken seriously as a company. Simms gear is durable, and I like that. It's heavier than orvis stuff, but that's okay because the lightness in your wallet can compensate haha. 

For the money we pay though, do we get good enough stuff? Is there really as much product testing going on as there is marketing? Can we support an industry that turns its back on legitimately strenuous product testing in favor of reviewers who will roll over for more free stuff? Don't get me wrong, I moved down here and got a job. I have the money to buy whatever, basically. But I still work hard for it, and I think they should work hard to get it from me.

The moral of the story is that my new Redington wading jacket cost $100, keeps me bone dry, and has some actual pockets to it. I hated that about the G3, the pockets were up on the rib cage. This made me feel like my arms were sticking out like chicken wings. And it's the first jacket I've owned that can swallow up my favorite streamer box, and then some. The cuffs seal water reasonably well, and the hood is extremely comfy. That list serves as a compilation of things the paclite shell didn't seem capable of, despite the double price. 

OK, my rant is over, feel free to share your own experiences!


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## mcoppel (May 21, 2011)

I learned a while ago, you don't always get what you pay for. In today's cut corner world, sometimes you are truly only paying the extra 50. 100, 150$ for a name brand. Other times your paying for smaller bells and whistles then in the past. The pre 80 age of craftmanship, and pride in a premier product is gone and now the world is full of throw away items that most companies want you to replace every year or two. There are still companies that stand behind what that sell, eg. LL Bean's no excuse exchange policy, but they are becoming fewer.


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## Wannabitawerm (Apr 13, 2004)

Here is my $.02. Foreign competition has made it so the inferior stuff is way cheaper. The domestic manufacturers must cut cost and you can only do that so much before materials and craftmanship suffer. Eventually, they either go out of business or get so cheap they are no good and it becomes cheaper to by foreign made goods 2 or 3 times over then once for the higher end. Or, there just isn't a higher end product to go to. It's not always the case but more true than we think. 

That being said, in these economic times we find out after wasting money on the cheap product that in a pinch we shouldve sprung for the higher end model. If we complain, customer service goes out the window. What do you guys think?


Ain't technology great? Now I can be distracted by fishing everywhere I go!


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

I can honestly say that I have never owned a single piece of Simms gear. Granted I have only been seriously fly fishing for 5-6 years, but with the reviews I read and information I can gather, I can't justify spending all the extra money for a brand's name. I don't doubt that the majority of it is good equipment, just like I am sure Orvis Helios' are great fly rods, but I can't justify spending $750 on one great rod when I could have 3 pretty darn good rods for about the same money! 

Something I have noticed about Simms is how hard they advertise and how hard folks, mostly in video, pimp their brand. It is a great time-filler if you're on your lunch break and need a "fix," go to the Drake's website and watch some of their submitted competition short videos. They are *spectacular*. One thing I have noticed through a lot of them, the Simms logo, practically everywhere. From hats to waders to clothing, you name it, it's there. What I wonder about is the reason for it being there. Is it because the gear is exceptionally good...or because Simms is pushing their pro-staffers to inundate their footage with the Simms logo, which I know happens a lot in the hunting side of outdoor videos?


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## toobnoob (Jun 1, 2010)

I tend to do a ton of research before I buy any gear and much of that is reading end user reviews and comments. I try to stay away from the "official" gear reviews because I think that they can be quite biased.

That said I do own mostly name brand stuff but not top of the line, more middle of the road. I did receive a Simms Freestone wading jacket and Freestone boots last year as a gift and I will say they both rock! I've only been using them a year though so I don't know how they will hold up in the long run but for now I'm very pleased with them. Now my Gander mountain guide series waders have had at least 2 leaks every year since I got them 4 years ago. Now they're not the best but they weren't cheap either and I will never buy anything branded for Gander Mountain again.

I think the best source of gear info is the people you meet when you are out chasing chrome. Anybody asks me about my gear I always tell them my waders are garbage and to get something else.

Since this is about gear maybe we could all list a few companies whose products we feel are high quality for the price (not to hijack this).

For me:

Lamson reels, wow the drag on these to sooooo smooth. Not the cheapest option out there but I feel they are one of the highest quality reels in their price range.

Redington rods, for the price you can't beat the performance. Never picked up a redington rod and been disappointed.

Temple Fork Outfitters rods. I can't say enough. Again not the cheapest option but man do they cast great.

Anyone else have gear that they just swear by? Waders maybe?


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## ARReflections (Jan 7, 2011)

Love my Togg Froggs !! Relatively inexpensive and no complaints so far. But then again I only fish about 1-2x a week. Obviously the key is to find the durability to price tradeoff point. Can a pair of Simms waders costing $500+ dollars for the pro versions last 5+ years? 

Assuming a $100/yr for buying a "cheaper" brand. I think I would rather buy a no name brand that would be reliable for at least 1 year at around $123 a pop and buy one every year. The advantages are you could have more than 1 pair (backup pair), you would have a warranty (1 year I would assume - could be wrong), and you would be less worried in being rough on them.


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## steelheader007 (Apr 8, 2004)

toobnoob said:


> I tend to do a ton of research before I buy any gear and much of that is reading end user reviews and comments. I try to stay away from the "official" gear reviews because I think that they can be quite biased.
> 
> That said I do own mostly name brand stuff but not top of the line, more middle of the road. I did receive a Simms Freestone wading jacket and Freestone boots last year as a gift and I will say they both rock! I've only been using them a year though so I don't know how they will hold up in the long run but for now I'm very pleased with them. Now my Gander mountain guide series waders have had at least 2 leaks every year since I got them 4 years ago. Now they're not the best but they weren't cheap either and I will never buy anything branded for Gander Mountain again.
> 
> ...


Hmm ok I will bite!

I had a pair of Patagonia Waders for 7 years no leaks no problems untill I was fishign in the salt and they sprung a little seam leak! I sent them back to Patagonia and no questions asked they sent me my full refund. They told me that year they were redesigning their waders and wanted to refund me the money +175 dollars so I can go and get new waders. Now I own Simms G3's a little seam leak sent them back and no issues since "4 years and holding". Boots O yes I bought 2 pairs of Simms Bguide boots the original all leather uppers with carbide spikes and they saw the salt and fresh water. they lasted for 11 years untill the soles pulled apart and I had to replace them. I have the new Simms guide boots all synthetic and with carbide screws in the souls and they are proving to be great all over the Great Lakes 3 years and holding! Now my wet dream jacket! I have a Patagonia SST jacket and this jacket has been in salt water over and over again along with the fresh water I have owned it since 1995! I looks a little worn but its still repells water and I have not done a darn thing to it!


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

I fished my salmon trip with greys rods, and had a ball. I pulled hard enough that I would have worried, knowing they were 200 dollar rods and not top of the line. They performed flawlessly, and really put it to the fish. I also fished the redington cpx line an, honestly, they were some of the best I had ever used. Definitely best st that price point. My next rod will come from one of these manufacturers.

Also, low end sage reels rock. The drag is the same all the way up through the 4200 series, so the 1600 is a hell of a deal. Mine has been going for three years now. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Also, TFO rods have been a real blessing  I love my bob clouser 6 wt, and when I need a 10 wt I might just go ahead and get another. It's heavy as sin and swings like a club, but it really puts the wood to fish and it loads just right to throw a pretty serious cast with a fly the size of a woodland rodent 

That said, I still want a Redington CPX switch rod. For $350 I've never seen finer quality, aesthetics, and even grip quality. They're just gorgeous rods, and a dream to fish. And I wish I could justify it right now, I would just order one! I might do it anyway.


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## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

I have exclusively used Simms waders and Boots for the last 20 years, I have the old Guide series waders and they have 2 small seam leaks now and if I ever get around to sending them back, they will fix them the first time for free as long as its not major and a slow leak, My cost for shippinga nd Im all about that. Those waders have about 500 miles on them, and thats a serious estimate.... About 7 years ago I got the G3 waders and love them as I have smaller feet but a big belly so I was able to get a small stocking foot on a portly sized wader, major kudos to them!! Only cost like $10 extra dollars at the time. those are really nice and I did punch a fence through them and patched myself, now they slow leak, again, if I ever get the need, ill send em in. they have been nothing but the best in customer service and also, american made.. unlike the LLbeans and orvis waders last ones I checked a few years back. 
Boots are the All leather Freestone boot with felt and carbide studs, I can honestly walk across frozen beach ball boulders without a worry!
I know sometimes you do not get what you pay for but Ill have to agree that the Simms stuff is the best made out there and worth every penny in the long run!

Salmonid


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## ohiotuber (Apr 15, 2004)

So far, the Simms products I own, I love! I have the Taco Bag (no more wet waders in the Jeep), Freestone Mesh vest, & Headwaters sling pack. I also research heavily before buying & these items stood way out from the rest, & still do based on my experience as an owner/user. I have a pair of Frogg Toggs that are fine for me. I bought them direct from FT years ago...Orange pants & anorek jacket on sale....I paid less than $35.00 SHIPPED! It DO pay to shop & I really like 'em, although the Wife borrows them occasionally.

The single "Big-name" that I find to be over-rated, poorly designed, & VASTLY over-priced is Fishpond. I looked at their pack (same price as my Simms sling pack) & the Simms at Cabelas & it was no contest. The Simms holds far more & is more accessible. Their old Coyote fly tying bag was a farce at mega-bucks..check out the Orvis Safe Passage fly tying bag at about 1/2 the price. Buying the Orvis was a complete "no brainer". I have not seen a single Fishpond item that I think is even worth 1/2 price.

LL Bean has an iron clad, no questions asked, no time limit guarantee & (if you watch their sales) most, if not all, items can be had for 20% to 40% off at times. Their fleece under wader pants with stirrups are fantastic & a decent buy at $35.00, but I bought 2 pair last year at 40% off. I also wear them as Pajama & lounge pants. I'll buy a couple more next sale.

All this being said, I HATE the phrase...."New & improved"!!! As far as I'm concerned, it actually means....We found a cheaper, more profitable alternative..Guess who gets less for their money?

Bottom line is that there are good & bad buys out there & we have all had varying experiences, both positive & negative. I really check stuff out before I buy it & I'm generally pleased. The brand/retailer I like may not be what you like, but that's why we have choices.
Mike


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## zippo (Apr 11, 2011)

Ok I might as well throw down my .01 cent of info.

I Have a set of Redhead neoprene waders I got from bass pro. There an All in One (boots are attached to the waders) and i had only used them for about2 months before they started to leak, no big deal patched them up and kept on going. Then one of straps broke while i was putting them on. Called Red Head and they wouldn't warranty them. They said it wasn't a manufacturing defect and that I must of nicked the strap causing it to fail. 

Then I Picked up a Set of Simms light weight waders (I dont know what model they are) and have used them all year long so far (from early spring to now) In streams from Tennessee to Vermont. And I have had no problems with them, And they are conestly rolled up and stuffed in to my ruck sack when i go back country fishing. Only Time will tell but so far they seem pretty stout.

Korkers Mudder Duckers. I have had these boots just as long as The Sims and I have yet to find any thing wrong with them. The main reason I bought them were because Of the interchangeable soles. As I said before I do alot of back country hiking and fishing so Now Insted of needing two sets of boots to hike with I only use the Korkers and hike in them So they have seen alot oif abuse but They are still holding up.


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## copperdon (Jun 3, 2011)

> Orvis says he's too hard on them!
> 
> Now, I know that there is such a thing as 'too hard' on equipment, but your very top of the line gear for fly fishing needs to be durable if you hope to be taken seriously as a company.
> 
> Read more: http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=184856#ixzz1aTHkBAfZ


I honestly don't know what that means.

I guess if you are storing your waders submerged in a tub of water and leaving them outside on the porch all winter, or dragging them behind your vehicle, LOL then yeah, that's being "too tough" on them.

But I don't really see how any angler can be "too tough" on waders. 
We hike, we wade, we fish. If a company's waders can't stand up to that criteria then they've no business selling them.

I have a pair of Guide Series chest waders that I bought about 6 years ago for around $89, never had any problems - with the exception of the first pair having the foot sewn on backwards - LOL... that one was a hoot! 

But besides that little problem, and after I had them replaced, I've fished seriously rugged country in Oregon and Colorado, along with the average hazards of PA and Ohio (brambles, etc) and put them through what I would consider to be moderate wear and tear situations, without any issues. 

I also have a pair of $29 no-name thigh highs - rubber - also never had any problems.

I think that, like anything else, there will be problems that slip by QC in _any_ company. But as long as they back up their products and fix the problem(s) I'm okay with it.


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