# Saugeye, How have they changed Ohio's fishing communities



## Southernsaug

I will start this by saying I am a Saugeye fishing addict. I fish them all year using many ways and tactics. 

My first introduction to Saugeye goes back to the mid to late 70s at least. Before that I was a Flathead, stream Smallmouth and pond bass guy. My Fishing season was primarily the spring and summer months. I would hang up my rods and stash the jon boat in September every year and turn to hunting and trapping for my outdoor fix. Occasionally I would get the itch on a warm February day and high water event and go and catch some channel cats on night crawlers, but fishing was a summer thing. Then Paint Creek lake was built and they decided it would only be stocked by natural reproduction. This did not work out so well. It had some great times as a crappie lake, but mostly it was a disappointment. Then I heard the state was trying a new hybrid in the lake, Saugeye. I learned they were a cross between Sauger and Walleye. I had caught Sauger in the river, but never had fished for Walleye out side of a once a year Lake Erie trip with a friend. So I went to the spillway and tried to catch some, as that is where I heard people were getting them. I didn't have much luck.

I returned to flatheads and Smallmouth and actually I done well with them. SOme flatheads in the 40 lb range every year and at least a few 3-4 lb smallies and I was happy. Then one fateful day we had a cookout at Paint creek in the early 80s. I met two of my new wife's cousins there and they had brought poles to catch Saugeyes. That was actually the first time I every saw anyone fish a twister tail. Hey these guys actually caught them. Well I was infected for life then. 

What I learned in the ensuing years was this was not solely a summer fish, but you could catch these things as long as the you could get a lure/bait into the water. Wow, fishing just went from a 5 month activity to a 12 month possibility. Also, these critters like to bite and they could be caught by almost any technique you could think of. So I began to learn and refine my skills and I spent as much time as imaginable chasing this great species. The biggest bonus is my family loved to eat them and the boss was all for me going fishing if I was bringing home Saugeye. It literally changed my life. Over the years I became Saugeye focused and 90% of all my fishing efforts turned to one fish. It has cost me thousands of dollars in gear as well. Countless dollars spent on bait and tackle and two boats over 30 years. Yes, it has been worth every dime. Friendships have come from pursuit of these fish and much needed therapy of the soul. 

I seriously doubt any other species has ever had this large of an impact on a community of people. Over the years millions of hours have been spent on chasing Saugeye. Billions of dollars pumped into Ohio's economy. For many people it changed fishing from only a warm weather sport to a full year sport. Bait shops now stay open year round around Saugeye Lakes. It has created a fishery that was only found at Lake Erie, state wide. Over the years I have heard the Ohio Division of wildlife maligned and criticized for many things, but this one they got right!!!


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## Lewis

Hats off to the ODNR! Ohio fishing would be pretty boring for me without the saugeye!


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## acklac7

I can say this: If the state didn't have the Saugeye program I'm relatively certain I would be living elsewhere. It's the only thing that makes the winter months tolerable.

The other thing the ODNR got right? The Scioto River Hybrid program: man-alive has it been nothing short of a resounding success. Although we could certainly use just a tad more fish per acre every year .


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## acklac7

Question: Why where the late 80's/90's such a resounding success for Saugeye? Why where some of our rivers (Scioto) stocked with 3x (or more) the amount of Fish they are currently stocked at? Why did that number change in the late 2000's? What happened?


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## UNCLEMIKE

Never fished for them. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find them in Northeastern Ohio?


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## Southernsaug

acklac7 said:


> Question: Why where the late 80's/90's such a resounding success for Saugeye? Why where some of our rivers (Scioto) stocked with 3x (or more) the amount of Fish they are currently stocked at? Why did that number change in the late 2000's? What happened?


Well, let me answer this as diplomatically as possible. Like any business, people age out and philosophies change. Mid 2000s a lot of the old guard retired and handed the reigns to others. Let's just say they have their own strategies and time will tell if they work. I will say this, the people of ODW fisheries work hard to get you the very best fishing they can.

Also, there were a few years that hatchery production seemed to falter a little. There were some water quality issues, but those have been worked out and you saw that bring an upswing in stocking again last year. Some of the new approach has also been the size limits on some lakes....all the regulars know how I feel about that.

I guess some of you have figured out by now I was part of that group that aged out, but I'm not going to say who I am or what my capacity was, publicly. I don't mean this in a critical way what-so-ever, but if you were born in the 70s and 80s then some of the most profound changes fishing in Ohio has ever seen happened while you were growing into anglers. You may not have been aware of just how much was happening. It was a perfect storm of available funding, good people and technological advances. One of the most impactful things that happened was the passage of the amendments to the Dingle Johnson Sport Fishing Restoration Act. These amandments, which greatly expanded its funding base, came in 1984 from Senator Malcolm Wallop and (then Congressman) Senator John Breaux. Suddenly millions of dollars were available for fisheries use. Ohio jumped on this funding and was one of the first to get large sums of money. Much of that went to restoring Ohio's fish Hatcheries, which had fallen into disrepair. Also, the FWS service abandoned it's two Ohio hatcheries (Senecaville and Hebron) and the ODW took them over. Much of the early Wallup/Breaux money went to retrofitting these hatcheries. Hebron is a primary Saugeye producer and Senecaville started the Wiper program. This money also paid to increase staff and research. So a lot of new people came on and many of them were hungry young stars who were ready to change the world of fisheries. For years many of the older researchers had toiled over their research without the funds, people and materials they needed to implement them. Now they had it. The new crews picked up the torch and set fire to the landscape. Boat ramps got built, stocking increased, new programs took off, old production hurdles were researched and solved, research increased and more. I would contend no other period of 20 years ever saw as much change for the good in fisheries. So as Paul Harvey used to say, That is the rest of the story. Now, most of those people are gone and have handed the torch to a new group....time will tell what their legacy is, as for me and my generation we were both humbled and proud to be a part of so much change.


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## cottonwoodbloom

UNCLEMIKE said:


> Never fished for them. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find them in Northeastern Ohio?


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## shorthair

UNCLEMIKE said:


> Never fished for them. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find them in Northeastern Ohio?


Don’t do it!!!


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## UNCLEMIKE

Thank you !


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## buckhunter7

Dumb question. But would it not be better for the state to stock larger 3-4", albeit probably less fish. 1" fish just seems like an extremely low survival rate ?


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## Southernsaug

There are no dumb questions, if you want to be informed. Yes in most case the larger you can get fingerlings the better. However, this is an expensive and intensive proposition. There are trade offs with it. ODW tried advancing Saugeye fingerlings and it became evident that the longer you held them the less you had in production ponds. The balancing act is to determine the time when you have good numbers left and still get higher survival. Saugeye need larger live food after ~1" and that means minnows. Millions of fingerlings can be produced by simply managing plankton blooms in ponds. Research has shown that if you time the stocking of those plankton fed fingerlings right after the shad spawn then in fact you get better return than keeping them until they get bigger. They are ready to prey on bigger things and hatcheries are limited on their ability to provide that. So stocking 1-2" fingerlings is actually the best return for effort. That is not always true with every species though.


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## saugmon

Southernsaug said:


> There are no dumb questions, if you want to be informed. Yes in most case the larger you can get fingerlings the better. However, this is an expensive and intensive proposition. There are trade offs with it. ODW tried advancing Saugeye fingerlings and it became evident that the longer you held them the less you had in production ponds. The balancing act is to determine the time when you have good numbers left and still get higher survival. Saugeye need larger live food after ~1" and that means minnows. Millions of fingerlings can be produced by simply managing plankton blooms in ponds. Research has shown that if you time the stocking of those plankton fed fingerlings right after the shad spawn then in fact you get better return than keeping them until they get bigger. They are ready to prey on bigger things and hatcheries are limited on their ability to provide that. So stocking 1-2" fingerlings is actually the best return for effort. That is not always true with every species though.



Once they exit the fingerling stage,they'll eat each other.I got that info from fishmounter's son that works at a saugeye hatchery.

IMHO,saugeye have revitalized some lakes like Indian.When I was a kid,we had the choice of fishing Indian or hit the Miami river outside bloom center.Well of course I wanted to catch fish so the river was it. Fishing Indian in the pre-saugeye days usually yielded dink channelcats.I even made up a catchy tune of that old indian lake song: "You can make a mistake at Indian Lake just by fishing there".My uncle had a cabin just down from barne's landing and we spent a lot of time there and the fishing was nothing to brag about. Post saugeye time,it's like a gold mine.Indian is now perhaps the #1 saugeye lake in the world.You can catch them all year round.You can catch them on bass rigs,perch rigs,tightlining,jigging,and trolling.Daytime,nighttime,noon,it doesn't matter.They're just eating machines.

Hats off for the ODNR with the saugeye stockings!!!!


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## Southernsaug

Most of the predators will cannibalize to an extent. Keep them low density as possible and well fed is the only way to slow it.


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## Karl Wolf

Great info southernsaug.thanks for sharing all that.


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## Jim white

Thanks again southernsaug for all you all was able to do. What is your go-to tactic to catch Saugeye this time of year I fish the Muskingum River quite a bit. Get some decent size but mostly smaller ones.


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## Southernsaug

Jim white, this time of year I find deep holes and jig minnow tipped curly tails along the bottom. Crank baits in the evening or at night. See the thread Rainy night jerk bites. Early fall I throw all cranks. Some of my best colors of jig tails are smoke, brown with green tail, chartreuse and white. I use larger minnows from local streams 1" -2", leave the crappie minnows at the bait store.


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## float4fish

Southernsaug said:


> Jim white, this time of year I find deep holes and jig minnow tipped curly tails along the bottom. Crank baits in the evening or at night. See the thread Rainy night jerk bites. Early fall I throw all cranks. Some of my best colors of jig tails are smoke, brown with green tail, chartreuse and white. I use larger minnows from local streams 1" -2", leave the crappie minnows at the bait store.


I have mentioned larger minnows before. I believe all fish will work less for more this time of year. A big WILD shiner, chub, or any other bait fish is best. I just don’t have the means to get them wild.


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## sixtyminutes

UNCLEMIKE said:


> Never fished for them. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find them in Northeastern Ohio?


You will not find Saugeye in any water that has the potential to drain into Lake Erie. Potential to damage the DNA of Lake Erie Walleye with this Hybrid. ODNR will not take the risk. In my opinion, Walleye if stocked where they cannot reproduce naturally would likely do just as well as Saugeye. Walleye are much more adaptable to varied habitat than we used to think. We now know that you can catch Walleyes in weeds in the summer. Walleyes suspend and we can catch them out in open lake basins. They can't spawn unless they have rivers. Well, except Lake Erie where they spawn on the reefs. Lots of myths have been disproven about how limited the habitat is that can support Walleye. In the upper Midwest DNR's stock walleye in shallow prairie potholes and they grow big and fat. In water we believed they could not live in a few years ago. They struggle to spawn in them but they sure do live well in those warm turbid waters. I am not convinced we need Saugeyes. Stocking seems to be required but there may be no justification to create the Hybrid. Just my opinion.


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## Southernsaug

sixtyminutes said:


> I am not convinced we need Saugeyes. Stocking seems to be required but there may be no justification to create the Hybrid. Just my opinion.


I respectfully disagree with this statement. First I am curious what data you use to come to this conclusion or is it just a feeling? Creel surveys and population studies would refute that walleyes create an equal fishery in the inland lakes that now are stocked with Saugeye. Saugeyes are far mores targeted in these lakes than walleye ever were. They are a huge boom and contribution to our lakes. I have seen the difference first hand and the data. Sure these lakes sustained walleye populations, but they still required stocking, as reproducing populations were far and few between. Catch rates on Walleye were much lower and they were rarely a targeted species in many of the now Saugeye lakes. just read through this thread and forum and you will see the two most popular topics are Saugeye and Lake Erie walleye. I think ODNR would have a serious problem if they stopped Saugeye stockings. What I have seen over the years is the only opposition is from eco-purist who believe we should have nothing but native species in our waters and let the chips fall were they may. I think many of us would be very sad anglers if that were the approach. Oh yeah, I do know the data, I was lifting those nets, spawning those fish, on the shock boats, doing the research and talking to the fishermen/women for 30+ years. If you feel like they are not justified, what would justify stocking Saugeye over Walleye or vice versa. In 90% of the Saugeye lakes Walleye would still require stocking. In a great many of those lakes, the shallow turbid ones, Walleye would not even do well or survive at all, especially the flood control lakes that suffer extreme draw-downs and huge level changes. Many of which have strong Saugeye fisheries. 

Please understand I am only debating you statement, I mean no malice towards you. I would like to see some discussion from the forum members in a healthy debate.


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## Snookhunter52

Southernsaug said:


> I respectfully disagree with this statement. First I am curious what data you use to come to this conclusion or is it just a feeling? Creel surveys and population studies would refute that walleyes create an equal fishery in the inland lakes that now are stocked with Saugeye. Saugeyes are far mores targeted in these lakes than walleye ever were. They are a huge boom and contribution to our lakes. I have seen the difference first hand and the data. Sure these lakes sustained walleye populations, but they still required stocking, as reproducing populations were far and few between. Catch rates on Walleye were much lower and they were rarely a targeted species in many of the now Saugeye lakes. just read through this thread and forum and you will see the two most popular topics are Saugeye and Lake Erie walleye. I think ODNR would have a serious problem if they stopped Saugeye stockings. What I have seen over the years is the only opposition is from eco-purist who believe we should have nothing but native species in our waters and let the chips fall were they may. I think many of us would be very sad anglers if that were the approach. Oh yeah, I do know the data, I was lifting those nets, spawning those fish, on the shock boats, doing the research and talking to the fishermen/women for 30+ years. If you feel like they are not justified, what would justify stocking Saugeye over Walleye or vice versa. In 90% of the Saugeye lakes Walleye would still require stocking. In a great many of those lakes, the shallow turbid ones, Walleye would not even do well or survive at all, especially the flood control lakes that suffer extreme draw-downs and huge level changes. Many of which have strong Saugeye fisheries.
> 
> Please understand I am only debating you statement, I mean no malice towards you. I would like to see some discussion from the forum members in a healthy debate.


It'll definitely be interesting to see how the combined saugeye and walleye at hoover will go. We had a really strong saugeye 2019 year class but this year wasn't nearly as good.


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## Lewzer

> I would like to see some discussion from the forum members in a healthy debate.


I have some first hand experiences with both at Nimisila in NEO. Saugeyes were stocked here in the 90’s and boy were they fun. They were easy to pattern and catch and we got many limits of them.
Now, since they switched over to walleye I’ve gotten just one limit. I’ve caught them several times and had a pattern but it was at very specific times of day at specific times in the year. The state discontinued the walleye stocking at Nimi this year due to poor recruitment and catch rates. They are definitely different fish with different habits and catching techniques. Though I understand why they stopped the saugeye stocking in NEO, I do really miss them. I get a bit jealous of the central Ohio guys catching them from shore in the late fall/winter.


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## Workingman

Don't be jealous lewzer! Haha, it works 2 ways! You guys have some fishable ice right now that I would die for and I'm always drooling at the steelhead opportunities up there! That being said, fishing for saugeye from shore in late fall/ winter has become a joy of mine! Started when I was in high school in the '80s at pleasant hill spillway. Now in central oh! Good luck out there!!


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## TClark

Lewzer , I am the opposite, I catch walleye easily and most days can't buy a saugeye of legal size.


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## sixtyminutes

Southernsaug said:


> I respectfully disagree with this statement. First I am curious what data you use to come to this conclusion or is it just a feeling? Creel surveys and population studies would refute that walleyes create an equal fishery in the inland lakes that now are stocked with Saugeye. Saugeyes are far mores targeted in these lakes than walleye ever were. They are a huge boom and contribution to our lakes. I have seen the difference first hand and the data. Sure these lakes sustained walleye populations, but they still required stocking, as reproducing populations were far and few between. Catch rates on Walleye were much lower and they were rarely a targeted species in many of the now Saugeye lakes. just read through this thread and forum and you will see the two most popular topics are Saugeye and Lake Erie walleye. I think ODNR would have a serious problem if they stopped Saugeye stockings. What I have seen over the years is the only opposition is from eco-purist who believe we should have nothing but native species in our waters and let the chips fall were they may. I think many of us would be very sad anglers if that were the approach. Oh yeah, I do know the data, I was lifting those nets, spawning those fish, on the shock boats, doing the research and talking to the fishermen/women for 30+ years. If you feel like they are not justified, what would justify stocking Saugeye over Walleye or vice versa. In 90% of the Saugeye lakes Walleye would still require stocking. In a great many of those lakes, the shallow turbid ones, Walleye would not even do well or survive at all, especially the flood control lakes that suffer extreme draw-downs and huge level changes. Many of which have strong Saugeye fisheries.
> 
> Please understand I am only debating you statement, I mean no malice towards you. I would like to see some discussion from the forum members in a healthy debate.


Southernsaug,
I appreciate the discussion. And, I value your obviously well informed opinion, Sir. I clearly said it was my opinion. Saugeye stocking dates back to what, the 1980's ? That's 40 years ago or so. A lot has changed in 40 yrs. You clearly love Saugeye's and are emotionally attached to them. I really don't care if it's Walleye's or Saugeye's. Love them both. I just do not believe that the Hybrid is better and worth the trouble in every situation or lake. Saugeye's in Hoover die around 4 yrs of age according to the data. Almost no Saugeye in the test nets are older than 4 years old. Is that because of Hybrid vigor? We don't seem to know. I don't like that kind of return on the investment. If your going to have a put and take fishery then at least put in a fish that can live until it reaches trophy size. Hoover formerly was known for big Walleyes when I was younger. Used to catch them off the rocks during the spawn. Lots were caught below the dam. There aren't any big Saugeye being caught these days. When was the last time you saw, from OH, a photo of a 30" Saugeye? I hope that stocking of Walleye's in Hoover will continue for a few years to see how they do. As you know, it will take a few years to find out the truth about stocking success. Some years Saugeye stocking is a bust and we don't really know why. Stocked Walleye's thrive in shallow turbid lakes in other states. Have you ever fished in the Dakota's, Minnesota or Iowa? My family is from that part of the world. I was born in NW Iowa. I have fished there more than once. They stock prairie pothole lakes and the fishing is excellent. You have to fish for them differently than you do in deep clear lakes. Traditional Walleye angers will struggle until they learn how the fish use the habitat. But anglers will figure it out. Potholes are not deep. Not clear. Very fertile. The summers are just as warm as in OH. Just not as long. 40yrs ago no one thought Walleye's could live in them. You can likely go to Youtube and find videos that document some of the fishing. I know that " The Next Bite" did a pothole show a couple of years ago. In-Fisherman has published articles on how to fish for Walleye's in them. I'm not saying that Saugeye stocking is wrong. Just that Walleye stocking might be better in some Lakes.


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## EnonEye

Thanx for this thread SS, guess I'll chime in. I'm 20 minutes from CJBrown and 60 minutes from Indian. Almost always since the early 90's I've chosen to drive 60 vs 20 minutes, why? Saugeys are much more aggressive than walleye (easier to catch?) and table the same (dare I say better?). I've had a few days catching walleye limits with my dad & son at Skeeter & CJ but have had dozens and dozens of days catching limits of saugeye at Indian. Catchin's better than not catchin right? Saugeye introduction to Ohio created many friendships for me and brought my family close around the dinner table. Thank you ODNR!


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## Southernsaug

Thanks for replying and sharing your opinion. I respect that and I can actually agree with some of your points. You are correct many saugeye don't live past 4 years old because they are mostly males and males don't live as long. That is why I am against length limits on them. You are right I prefer Saugeye and am bias towards them, but the great thing is we can all have differing opinions and still love the resource. I think I'll just leave it at that. 



sixtyminutes said:


> When was the last time you saw, from OH, a photo of a 30" Saugeye?


Just for fun....the last one I saw I was holding in 2018


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## walleye30

Just curious how old do you reckon that fish is SS?


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## Southernsaug

Walleye30, I'd guess 6-8 yrs old and 10 at the most. Fish ages are not an across the board thing. There is more data on walleye than Saugeye, but a good bit of work has been done on Saugeye in Ohio and a Saugeye over 6 is not a common fish. Part of this is due to a large part of them being male, and males don't live as long. The outside mark of lifespan seems to be around 10 years. A lot of work has been done on Walleye. Much of Ohio, inland not Lake Erie, is actually in Walleye's southern range. With that in mind, they tend to grow faster and live shorter lives. Records suggest most walleye in inland Ohio lakes live within that 10-12 range. Now as you go North (Mn., ND & Wi. ) and into the mid-west and northern Plains (northern Iowa and SD) walleye live a lot longer , but grow slower. In the plains 15-20 years is common and the Northern states 20-25 years. In Canada they may live 30 years or more, but never get as big as their southern cousins. I hope you find that info useful.


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## Southernsaug

We have spent a lot of discussion time on fisheries management, I thought I'd share a link to some of the States information that is available on line. It's mostly summary stuff and overviews, but still a lot of good reading. The Lake Erie report has a lot of info. I do think that the fishing public needs more access to what the Division of wildlife is doing, but that is a daunting task as there is so much data that is not necessarily summarized in a form that would really be useful to the average angler. What I suggest is if you have a specific question, then ask. In most cases someone will answer you. For specific lakes contact the district office for that lake. State wide questions you can ask central office. If you have a sportsman's club or group ask for someone to come speak on your topic of interest, get to know your public servants. Most of them are out fishing and hunting just like you. I know this because I done it for over 30 years and I spent many many days with angler groups and clubs. We were always open to visitors and I never turned down an invitation from a club, within reason anyway. Sadly I have been out of the game for many years and I have lost touch with many of the newer people and some of the new strategies, but overall things haven't changed that much.






Fish and Habitat Management Information, Research, and Reports


A list of documents, publications, research, and reports related to the work we do to manage Ohio's fisheries.




ohiodnr.gov


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## walleye30

Thanks for all your insight SS. I caught a 26incher in december 7,9lbs. was just wondering age structure.


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