# Trespassing when standing on the streambed?



## Rooster (Apr 8, 2004)

If you are standing on the streambed (physically in the water) of a navigable waterway on private property without permission, is this considered trespassing in Ohio?

Does anyone know for 100%? Or, know where I can find out?

I know that this has been discussed before, but I guess that I just need some clarification. Very knowledgeable people have told me that it is considered trespassing; conversely, other knowledgeable people have told me that it is not trespassing. Is there even a 100% right answer to this question? Thanks!


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Members of a club I belong to recently discussed this with a ODNR guest speaker at our monthly meeting. Yes, it is definitely tresspassing And a citation can be issued.


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## sliprig (Apr 6, 2004)

> If you are standing on the streambed (physically in the water) of a navigable waterway on private property without permission, is this considered trespassing in Ohio?


The key word here is "navigable". If it was when state was formed your safe. 
If not the landowner owns the streambed also. The problem is in the field it's up to the person that responses to the call.
If you know your right it most likely will end up in court to prove your point. So you better do your homework. Been there, done that!

Slip


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## Fish4Fun (Apr 6, 2004)

Yes it is tresspassing if you are standing in the stream, we discussed this on here a cpl times a while back. The property owner. Legally own's the land under the water to the center of the stream. If you have permission to enter the stream at my house my neighbor could still hit you with tresspassing once you pass my property line


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## Fish4Fun (Apr 6, 2004)

http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/water/pubs/fs_st/stfs02.pdf

Good read for you in the link above. It is a pdf file.


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## peple of the perch (Sep 13, 2004)

if u r in a boat it is ot trespassing if u r wading than it is trespassing


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## Steel Cranium (Aug 22, 2005)

I have been told that when floating thru private property, but not touching the bottom at all, you're not technically trespassing. But once your boat/feet/anchor hits the bottom, you are trespassing. This is where the 'navigable' term enters the situation. A deeper river like the maumee, lower huron, etc. isn't a problem, since you rarely come in contact with the bottom. Pushing the limits on a smaller river where you have to exit craft to get around rapids, logs, etc. could pose a problem.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the state would try to add an amendment that explains the situation clearly instead of falling back on a rule started in England before we were a country. Rules that are present in outdoor-friendly states (like Wisconsin) where access is permitted to the high water mark are nice.

The PDF links should be added to the steelhead page as a sticky, since the stream access issue always seems to come up.


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## dakotaman (Oct 19, 2005)

Landowners own the soil beneath the stream, not the water itself. Definetley tressapassing.


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

If the law hasn't changed from the last time I got in trouble for tresspassing, then you aint tresspassing unless there is a sign saying no tresspassing, or something like a fence up to block you (a fence by law is considered a no tresspassing sign). So if the law is the same, it is NOT tresspassing unless there is a sign or something to block your way. Or you were told by the owner before that you are not allow on the land, then you would be. In otherwords, if you had a pond on your property and no signs or fence, I could walk up and fish it without getting in trouble (the first time), but once you told me to leave, I would have to do so and if you told me never to return, I also would have to do so. But once again, thats if they haven't changed the law from when I was younger and got busted for tresspassing. Oh and I beat the case because of this (no sign or fence).


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## Papascott (Apr 22, 2004)

I have a question. Does one need written permision, like needed for hunting on private propery?

Scott


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

Papascott said:


> I have a question. Does one need written permision, like needed for hunting on private propery?
> 
> Scott


No, but it is a good idea to get it anyways. Just think of this problem you could run into without the note. What if you are out there and the owner has to leave. Now a neighbor sees you and doesn't know you. Now he/she calls the cops. They come and you tell them you have permission. Well now that the owner is gone doing something, you have no proof that you in deed have the owners permission to be on the land. So now you face going to jail because you don't have this note. So I would get one if I was you.


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## Walter Adkins (May 20, 2004)

True story here. When I first moved into Ohio I wanted a clear definition on this issue. I called the number on my fishing license and talked to a lady. I told her that WV, Kentucky and all other states that I wade fish in have a law that as long as you stay inside of the high water mark you are aloud to travel navigatable water ways. She put me on hold for about 20 minutes and then gave the answer that her boss gave her. She said that as long as you are inside of the bounderies of the normal water mark you can wade and no citation can be given. I fished for a few years before I was checked by a game warden. He preceded to tell me that I was trespassing and I said no I was not. I then retrieved out of my wallet the name and number of the lady I spoke with. I then preceded to tell him the name of her supervisor. He told me he thought that they were wrong. I stayed with him for about an hour while he talked with his supervisor about my information I had be given. He never got it fully worked out but just asked me to always obtain written permission before wading and never walk outside of the banks. I think that the lack of a sollid law will confuse people and the law inforcers for as long as it is written the way it is now. The way it is written up a land owner could go onto his neighbors land with a back hole to retrieve his sand and mud that washed down after the last flood. This may sound strange but it is no more strange than thinking that a land owner owns the top of a creek bed that is constantly moving. At the same time we as fisherman have brought most of the infrocement of this on our selfs by littering and damaging the property of land owners.


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## duckman (Sep 18, 2004)

When I asked this before of the ODNR, Ken Fitz (Former Franklin County Wildlife Officer) summary.... 

If you are touching bottom its trespassing... If your decoy anchor/sinker are on the bottom you are trespassing. If your shot or lure lands on the property you are trespassing.... and it does not need to be posted as No trespassing... In a nut shell you better know where you are when you decide to touch bottom. 

Sensitive topic .. Property rights ... I think you clevelander's are aware... what you think is yours(Title in Hand) can be given away by the court 

Anyway my 2 cents from when I asked an "authority"


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

All I can tell you is what happened to me when I was younger. I beat the case because of no sign and no fence. Can't get no more authority than beating the case. But like I said, that was then, this is now. They may have changed the law from that time. But I did beat the case and it WAS because of no sign or fence. I can't tell you the law, I can only tell you my story.


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## lunder (Aug 23, 2005)

topics like this can drive ya' nuts! Bottom line is be careful, I guess. In general trespassing involves intentionally entering or remaining on the land of another when permission has been denied (posted signs) or when told to leave by persons with authority(property owner) to do so. One rule of law enforcement: Try not to enforce a law unless you really know and are sure what you are talking about. Otherwise you may end up looking silly.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

NO signs are required for trespassing to be trespassing.

Entering, crossing, using a nother persons property without PRIOR permission is trespassing whether you are hunting, fishing, birdwatching, taking a walk, whatever.

By some of the stories in this post someone could walk into by backyard and swim in my pool or drink a beer while sitting in my hot tub, but because I don't have up a sign prohibiting these actions it's not trespassing. Not a chance.

The ODNR does NOT enforce trespassing laws, They enforce game laws. Your friendly county sheriff is the one responsible for enforcing trespass laws or your local city if you live with city limits. The ODNR does enforce, hunting without written permission, that is their only way of helping to enforce trespass laws due to the fact that they have no authority to enforce trespass laws any more than they can enforce speed limit laws.

A property does NOT need to be posted with signs for you to violate trespass laws. The moment you step on private property without PRIOR consent you are trespassing.


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## River Walker (Apr 7, 2004)

Back when I worked with the ODNR in the early 70's,this question came up quite often.You can never walk onto someone's land whether it's posted or not,that doesn't even make sense.I don't post my backyard,but that doesn't give somebody the right to come onto my property.Any stream in Ohio regardless of whether it's considered navigable or not,still falls under the same law,the landowner owns both banks,and the bottom(no sign required).The confusing issue to this law is what is considered navigable,if it will float a boat,one would think it's navigable right? Wrong! If there is even one single riffle on that section of stream that a landowner doesn't want you on,then it's not navigable,due to the fact that your craft would be touching bottom on the riffle,hence touching his property.If you can't get written permission to access someone's land,then don't go on it.Lundy,you're also right about it being the local sheriff's department's call also,the ODNR is only there to enforce fish and game laws,not tresspassing laws.


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

Just because you won a case in court does not mean that is the law. You could have won on a technicality. 

The other guys are right here. Navigable is defined by being able to support commercial traffic. If you are wading a stream I guarantee it cannot support commercial traffic, therefor if you are touching the ground below - you are trespassing.

As said before - this has been discussed MANY-MANY-MANY times. Check the ORC (Ohio Revised Code).


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## WINNER (Apr 7, 2004)

Rooster, listen to Walter and the guys on RS...navigability precedes Ohio. High water mark and go, so long as you are engaged in trade.  

Winner


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## fishmeister (Jul 29, 2004)

River Walker and Lundy are right on the mark. Part of my work involves sampling streams and rivers for fish. I learned the hard way in grad school when I got a pistol pulled on me when I sampled too close to somebody's dope field. Better off to ask landowners for permission. You might even make a friend in the process. At the very least, you'll help give sportmen (and women) an honest, forthright image.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

MY brother is a Vinton County deputy.He told Me just last month if someone doesnt have there property posted and Your caught on it all He can do is tell You to leave and not come back.Its kind of ironic its brought up now.But We were discussing it about deer hunting.So the way it is now unless Your property is posted no charges can be filed unless they continue to tresspass.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

This is the law, directly from the ODNR website.

Your sheriff friend is mistaken.

Signs make ZERO difference!


Permission to Hunt 

The landowners written permission is required for hunting and trapping on private land, regardless of whether the land is posted. Permission slips are available at Division of Wildlife district offices and some license outlets. 

The Penalty for Hunting Without Written Permission 

The maximum penalty for hunting without written permission of the landowner for a first offense is 60 days in jail and a $500 fine. The maximum penalty for a second offense is 90 days in jail and a $750 fine. 

A person must carry written permission at all times while engaging in hunting or trapping on private land and exhibit it upon request to a state wildlife officer, sheriff, deputy sheriff, police officer, other law enforcement officer, owner of the land, or the landowners authorized agent.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

He's not My friend He's My brother.Im sorry its hard to digest but thats the way it is.


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## River Walker (Apr 7, 2004)

Ok man you're telling us that just since you don't have a sign up on your front door,someone can come in,sit down and wait for you to ask them to leave? That's an extreme example,but just the same,it's not the law.Dude if I owned land out in the country,and I had a nice pond on it and I didn't see the need to stick up a sign around it,you honestly believe that give's you the right to walk on my land and start fishing? Or hunting? If a game protector really told you this,he better go back and take some night classes! You can never,never go on somebody's land without permission period! Don't matter if it's on a creek,in a woods,in a field or wherever else,it's plainly trespassing.I made the mistake of not getting written permission to fish a Knox County stream,last year I went fishing there,and the landowner was also out fishing,of course,he didn't remember who I was,and there was a little problem.Luckily,he did eventually remember me,so things worked out and cooler heads prevailed.Had he called the law,I would have been at their mercy seeing as how I had no proof whatsoever that I was allowed to be there.Lesson learned!


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

There is nothing here difficult for ME to digest at all. Please just READ the law as I posted it. I certainly trust the written word taken directly from the ODNR website more than I do your brother-in-law


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

Im not saying Your allowed to do anything.Im just saying if You dont have it posted and someone is tresspassing and You catch them and call the ODNR,police or whatever.There gonna show up tell the person to leave.No tickets or arrest ,fines will be made unless You have it posted.

And Lundy please dont be an ass.Thats twice now You have misread Brother as friend,brother-in-law.I know Your doing it on purpose to try and start something.Not very professional if You ask Me.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

No, I really don't want to start anything and if I have offended you I apologize.

In fact this subject certainly isn't worth creating any animosity over.

I'll bow out of this one.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

> Ok man you're telling us that just since you don't have a sign up on your front door,someone can come in,sit down and wait for you to ask them to leave?


 No thats unlawful entry.



> Dude if I owned land out in the country,and I had a nice pond on it and I didn't see the need to stick up a sign around it,you honestly believe that give's you the right to walk on my land and start fishing? Or hunting?


 No,if You caught me on Your land and called the police they would ask Me to leave and if I came came back tickets,arrest would follow.



> If a game protector really told you this,he better go back and take some night classes!


 Ive stated numerous times Hes My brother who is a Vinton County deputy that handles about 15 tresspassing calls a day.




> Luckily,he did eventually remember me,so things worked out and cooler heads prevailed.Had he called the law,I would have been at their mercy seeing as how I had no proof whatsoever that I was allowed to be there.Lesson learned!


 If it wasnt posted or blocked by a fence they would have asked You to leave.


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## River Walker (Apr 7, 2004)

If you're on somebody's land,and they call the law,when the law arrives the first thing they will ask the landowner is do they want to press charges.Your brother may be unaware of this due to the fact that game protectors do not enforce trespassing laws,again,that's up to the sheriff's dept.,or city police.Lastly,you are correct on one statement,if you come into my house univited,it is unlawful entry,same as coming onto my land univited-unlawful entry!


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

crankus_maximus said:


> Just because you won a case in court does not mean that is the law. You could have won on a technicality.
> 
> The other guys are right here. Navigable is defined by being able to support commercial traffic. If you are wading a stream I guarantee it cannot support commercial traffic, therefor if you are touching the ground below - you are trespassing.
> 
> As said before - this has been discussed MANY-MANY-MANY times. Check the ORC (Ohio Revised Code).


Maybe you should read this closer. It does not have to support commercial traffic. http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/water/pubs/fs_st/stfs02.pdf If it supports recreational use, you can also float it. It doesn't have to support commercial traffic. It is clearly stated in the link I just gave you.


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## sliprig (Apr 6, 2004)

> The key word here is "navigable". If it was when state was formed your safe.
> If not the landowner owns the streambed also.


Was that in the 3th or 4th post??


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

Rod and Reel. That is not a legally enforceable document you have posted a link to. It merely is an opinion or interpretation based on many different sources. 

The document you have posted a link to states that the definition for navigability has been broadened. However, it does not say by who or what governing body. So, traditionally the navigability issues has been determined if commerce and travel (not recreation) could be supported. It merely notes a local court case, which does not necessarily give it jurisdiction over all waterways in Ohio.


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## Snobal (Jul 26, 2005)

Who wants to come stand in my yard long enough for the local police dept. to get here? That should give us a decisive answer. I promise I won't press charges!!


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

C'mon up to Cuyahoga, Ashtabula, Lorain, huron, Medina or Lake county and we can go to some of the tribs that boarder the river. You park your ride out front, cross the property and get into the river and fish while I tell the landowner that someone is fishing on his property. Now mind you that these are people who have had it with those that don't ask permission and they are prepared to press charges. You continue to fish while either the sheriff or a ODNR officer show up and then tell them how wrong they are in issuing a citation or if you get them mad enough, cart you off to jail. This is a guaranteed invitation to clarify all the various disagreements. I'll be happy to have someone drive your vehicle to my place to save you the towing and storage fee.
A second similar clarification can be arranged regarding hunting and tresspassing on unposted private property. 
I will pay your trip expenses if you are not issued a citation or arrested but I will not cover your bail if needed.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

another Ironic twist to all this.I live out on a gravel road in the middle of the woods.I have permission from the Lady down the road to hunt the woods across the road from My house.I noticed last week while riding My 4 wheeler on their property that someone had posted motocross arrow tags on the lady's property.It happens all the time down here in Ross county.One or two guys will make a course spanning several miles across alot of land that their not supposed to be on.So I never thought much of it and then today while I was burning some brush I seen the lady on her 4-wheeler posting the property.She seen Me and drove over and told Me to disregard the signs She has to put them up cause guys were trying to have a motorcross on her land.I told her I noticed them last week.She then tells Me she called the Ross County Sheriffs dept to report it.She told the deputy She knows the guys responsible for setting up the course.The deputy ask if she has told them not to trespass or is the property posted.She said No.So the deputy tells her to make sure to post her property and If they still trespass then to call them back.
I about crapped when She told Me that today.It was just to ironic.I really dont agree with it.Maybe its just these southern ohio depts who operated like this.My brother says thats how it is in Vinton and now My neighbor says She was told the same thing here in Ross county.


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## lunder (Aug 23, 2005)

THANK GOD some here are not cops. Unless of course they are then GOD HELP US!!! I'm going to set up a video camera and wait. The local kids,meter readers, neighbors who step off the sidewalk while walking, mail carriers, UPS, Fed-Ex, the kid from the band boosters, Jehovah's witnesses, every politician running for office, and on and on....THEY'RE ALL GOING DOWN BABY!!! None of 'em ever got my permission to set toe on my property. I'm fillin the hooskow with the lot of 'em. Heck maybe I'll even plug'em with a load of rock salt! Seems reasonable, no?


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

Lunder thanks for making more since of what im trying to say.If You had no tresspassing signs on Your front porch, driveway,yard etc and someone came on Your property no doubt they would be cited.Laws are cut in dry on paper but so many different ways to interpet them in real world situations.If We went by the book there would be alot more P'Od people walking around.


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## River Walker (Apr 7, 2004)

For some reason,people on here still believe that if you don't want intruders on your property,you must post it.Give it up man,it's not that way in Ross County,it's not that way in Vinton County,it's not that way in any county in Ohio period.I can't make it any more simple than this,if you own land-anywhere-you do not have to post it to keep people off of it,it is your land,not theirs.You most definitely have the right to protect yourself,your family,and your property.I'll go along with Shortdrift on this one,I know of a couple streams up in NE Ohio that are not posted at all,I challenge you to park at one of the bridge crossings,hop out and wade on in.On one stream in particular,you won't make 10 casts before the sheriff will be visiting you.When he arrives to arrest you,you tell him your brother said its cool for you to trespass on someone's land if they haven't posted it,and you're going to continue to fish until he can prove to you that your brother is wrong.Do you really believe that if you're driving down some road out in the country,and you happen to notice a couple cockbirds strutting around out in some field that you have the right to hop out and pursue them because the land isn't posted? Brother or not,no way a ODNR officer is going to tell you,or anyone else that something as blatant as that is permissable-no way.


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## BIGDAWG (Apr 17, 2004)

This is a question that law enforcement and judges commonly ask themselves. With that said, EVERYONE, has an expectation of privacy at their home/property. Would a REASONABLE person actually believe it is OK to enter/uninvited onto someone's land and begin to fish in their pond? Whether or not it is posted? Would a normal person believe this is acceptable? Is it OK to go to BP and fill your pockets with candy bars and cigarettes because it is not posted "Please don't steal." I know this is an extreme example but I'm trying to make my point. COMMON SENSE IS THE BEST LAW...I'm sure everyone was raised to know right from wrong...Sometimes people just want to defy the law, just because....and if this is the way you think,, then shame on you when you get pinched for Trespassing, I'm sure a judge would think "Would a reasonable person have thought it was OK to trespass on this land to "motocross, fish, hunt...etc." If this is "Acceptable" to you when you ask yourself the above question....well, good luck at your day in court!! and please do not trespass onto my deck and help yourself to my beer...hehehe  BD


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## Saildog (Aug 2, 2004)

Some people seem to have this feeling of "entitlement". That they have some right to do as they damn well please, where they please. Before you do something, think of it from the other guy's point of view. For example, I've worked my ass off to afford a sizeable piece of property for me, my family and friends to hunt on. In order to do this, I work a lot of hours and travel all over the world for my job. Leaves precious little time for hunting. So do you think I don't get just a little pissed off when I make to my land for a weekend and have to throw a bunch of trespassers out? Nothing like getting up an hour before dawn, slipping into your tree stand, waiting in the cold for the next couple of hours and then having a group of other hunters make a "drive" through your land and ruin your whole day. 

The law is the law and it is a good one. There are thousands of open acres in Ohio for public hunting and fishing. If that's not good enough for you, then work the extra hours and buy your own land. At the very least have the common decency to ask permission. And here's a tip...don't knock on the door opening day, gun/rod in hand and ask permission to hunt/fish. Scout it out a couple of months ahead and at least offer the landowner to help pick up litter or something. If they say no, then respect that and move on. 

The law could not be more clear. If you are standing on private land, regardless of water being up to your knees, you need permission. End of story. Let's move on until somebody else brings it up again (seems to happen every 3-4 months).


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## River Walker (Apr 7, 2004)

Saildog,let me make one addition to your excellent response.If you don't like hunting/fishing on public land,then do what Saildog suggest's buy your own land,then YOU won't mind if somebody utilize's your land without your permission just because you didn't feel the need to put up a sign!


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

"If you don't like hunting/fishing on public land,then do what Saildog suggest's buy your own land"

That will be the 12th day of never


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

That's some good posting saildog, river_walker and shortdrift. I have nothing more to add (this time).


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## Walter Adkins (May 20, 2004)

Saildog and Riverwalker have very good points about land rites. The point of this topic was not about land rites. The point is about water and stream bed rites. To different topics to discuss. First I think that everyone has the same idea that no one owns the water flowing across some ones land (I do not mean ponds or little creeks that you can not even get a canoe down). The real question is stream beds and who owns the stream bead or can anyone own it. I fully expect owner ship of the support of a stream bed to go to the land owner. A stream bed is not the ground that supports that stream bed but the top inch or two that is in constant movement. What I do not understand is how any one person could own the stream bed. One day your stream bed will be down river the same as the water that flows over it. Is anyone entitled to go onto another land to retrieve that silt and sand that moved down stream? 
Now do not get me wrong on the subject of trespassing it is just wrong posted or not.


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## WINNER (Apr 7, 2004)

Navigability precedes Ohio. How many times do I have to say it. I can access any river in Ohio that has ever been used for commerce(good luck finding one that hasn't) at a public access and use that waterway. 

Does someone own the land I am standing on? Yes. Do they pay taxes on that land? Yes. Do I have a right to use the land/water to navigate and engage in trade? YES!! Here are some resources.

...a good one-read every link...court cases...
http://www.nationalrivers.org/us-law-menu.htm

...another good one...lots of vocabulary/court cases as well...
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/stewardship:navigability

Winner


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## Hatchetman (Apr 13, 2004)

Common sense tells you that you can not use someone elses property without permission. If it's not your's, it's someone elses. But then again if common sense was common everyone would have it, wouldn't they??


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Some have it and many don't.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

> Common sense tells you that you can not use someone elses property without permission. If it's not your's, it's someone elses. But then again if common sense was common everyone would have it, wouldn't they??


 I agree...


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## Rooster (Apr 8, 2004)

At first, I thought that the PDF presented answered my question. That is, it is clear that the property owners on either side of a stream do in fact own the streambed below. Further, It is also clear that the public has the right to use the flowing water.

However, it is still not clear (at least for me) if one is trespassing when standing in the middle of a navigable stream. The question is not of whom owns the streambed. The question is does the public have a right to use the privately owned streambed for transportation?


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

Rooster said:


> At first, I thought that the PDF presented answered my question. That is, it is clear that the property owners on either side of a stream do in fact own the streambed below. Further, It is also clear that the public has the right to use the flowing water.
> 
> However, it is still not clear (at least for me) if one is trespassing when standing in the middle of a navigable stream. The question is not of whom owns the streambed. The question is does the public have a right to use the privately owned streambed for transportation?


I gave up on this thread a few days ago. If you want to know the law on trespassing, just do what I did to beat my case (read the Ohio Law book). Go to the library and read the Ohio Law book. It is stated in there (at least it was back in 95') that a sign and/or fence must be present in order for it to be trespassing. I aint posting this for everybody else to tell me I am wrong. I will believe the Ohio Law book over everybody heres opinion. And you too rooster should do the same. Just go to the library, and unless it was changed from back in 95', it will be in there for you to read. Man was the guards mad when I asked for that book.  I aint even here to try and get people to believe me, I don't care. I know what I read and that I beat the case. Thats more than enough proof for me.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

Rod & Reel I beleive you.Its funny how these guys think My deputy brother would make something like that up.


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## Shortdrift (Apr 5, 2004)

Anybody want to grab a stick and beat on this dead horse befor it gets buried.


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## jeffmo (Apr 7, 2004)

there's 2 creeks that i have floated for many,many years.deercreek and darby,i've put alot of time on the scioto also.we've made float trips on darby from orient to circleville,camped on different sandbars and banks and not once have we ever had any trouble with a landowner.there's one thing that will make a landowner shut down acess to his property....trash!
most of these landowners are farmers and could really care less,until,they find the remnants of a campfire,beer bottles/cans,etc. left on the bank or a sandbar.THAT'S when the "no tresspassing signs go up and the law ends up getting called.so when you're making that float trip,take a trash bag with you and when see that trash that got left by someone else,simply pick it up.
it was explained to me by a wo once that if you are in a navicable stream then tresspassing is not an issue as long as you are not on either bank.it's pretty much so a given that you will,depending on the time of year and the stream,have to get out and pull your canoe or john boat past a gravel bar.so you will more than likely be standing on the bottom.but i sure wouldn't worry about being issued a citation for it.


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## lunder (Aug 23, 2005)

How many surveyors must die while pounding property stakes in the middle of streambeds before this argument is put to rest?!? Oh, the humanity! Not to mention the expensive gear they ruin.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

Ok....this is a topic im very passionate about...Not to mix it up with anyone (that isn't my style..I like to help out)...But I have to side with R&R and ostbucks98

Here is the criminal trespass statue as defined in section 2911.21 of the Ohio Revised Code (availible @ http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/oh/lpExt.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=PORC)

§ 2911.21. Criminal trespass.

(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following: 

(1) *Knowingly* enter or remain on the land or premises of another; 

(2) *Knowingly* enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard; 

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, *]as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access; * 
(4) *Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place  or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either. * (B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency. 
(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception. 
(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. 
(E) As used in this section, "land or premises" includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof. 



In my interpretation the law says the following: If you KNOW that the land is private (I.E. you have been warned by a fence,sign,landowner etc.) you ARE TRESPASSING...If you are unaware that the property is private you are NOT TECHNICALLY TRESPASSING...Now say the landowner came out and said "hey buddy..this is my land..get out"...well then you WOULD be trespassing.

Sadly, if the landowner owns property on BOTH sides of the stream he "own's the stream"...A law which I DETEST!!!! D__N THE OHIO LEGISLATURE!!! ....Numerous states have the "highwater mark" law...which basically says that no one can own a river and the immediate riparian zone surrounding it...Hopefully someday things will change


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have to disagree.

(A) No person, without *privilege* to do so, shall do any of the following: 

Privilege = ownership or permission

(1) *Knowingly* enter or remain on the land or premises of *another*

Knowingly= It would be reasonable to expect that if you don't own it, it must be owned by another


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

ok.now for my interpretation(since we all have our own,LOL).
the way i read that is,you are trespassing if you are on private property without permission.that being based on sections A 1 and 2


> (A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the followingA) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
> 
> (1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;
> 
> (2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;


nothing about signs or other notice in there.
now,here's where i will agree that a person could argue against guilt.
it's very easy to say "i didn't KNOW it was private property".and it may even be true or work in some cases.but,as they say,ignorance is no excuse.if it is used in this case,it's usually a lame one,because in most instances a person knows if it's not their property,it must be someone else's(i.e. if you walk into MY yard without my permissin,you KNOW you're trespassing):rolleyes"
there are admittedly,times when one could UNKNOWINGLY be tresspassing,but i think we all know that is more often not the case.
so the law is open to interpretation,and also could be subject to proof of knowledge(key word) in order to be prosecuted.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

LOL kim.you beat me to the punch by typing less and faster


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I know one thing for sure. The no wake laws (300') at harbor entrances on Lake Erie sure don't have to be marked in any way for swift and sure enforcement of the law. I have about 180 reasons to know that as a fact!  

I fought the law (signage) and the law won!


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

180 lessons you won't forget 



here's your sign.........................................


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## WINNER (Apr 7, 2004)

Rooster said:


> The question is not of whom owns the streambed. The question is does the public have a right to use the privately owned streambed for transportation?


Absolutely.

Winner


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## Fish4Fun (Apr 6, 2004)

Ok not trying to ruffle feathers but if a person came to me in my court room( If i was a Judge LOL) and said If you are unaware that the property is private you are NOT TECHNICALLY TRESPASSING... I would double the fine!!! And simply ask him if it was his land? He says NO. Was it marked Public Land? NO So you just thought no one owns it and it will be ok to hunt and fish. Yes WRONG ANSWER DOUBLE FINE SUSPENSION OF LICENSE FOR ?? COME IN HERE AGIAN AND YOU WON'T EVER HAVE A LICENSE!


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

Thank you for posting the ORC for trespassing. That helped to show that there is no reference to whether or not the land has to be posted. As stated earlier, everyone can interpret things differently. It is up to the interpretation of the judge. I can say this, ignorance is not a defense of the law. That has beeen proven time and time again.


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

That was funny Jerry


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

LOL.move over judge judy.here comes(hangin') judge JERRY


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> Originally Posted by Rooster[Originally Posted by Rooster
> The question is not of whom owns the streambed. The question is does the public have a right to use the privately owned streambed for transportation?
> 
> 
> ...


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

misfit said:


> now,here's where i will agree that a person could argue against guilt.
> it's very easy to say "i didn't KNOW it was private property".and it may even be true or work in some cases.but,as they say,ignorance is no excuse.if it is used in this case,it's usually a lame one,because in most instances a person knows if it's not their property,it must be someone else's(i.e. if you walk into MY yard without my permissin,you KNOW you're trespassing):rolleyes"
> there are admittedly,times when one could UNKNOWINGLY be tresspassing,but i think we all know that is more often not the case.
> so the law is open to interpretation,and also could be subject to proof of knowledge(key word) in order to be prosecuted.





I'll agree..sometimes the question of "am I trespassing" is best answerd by one's common sense...But other times there is NO way of knowing who's land you are on. 

For instance, say I start out fishing at Griggs (city of columbus land) Then I start walking South...all of the sudden im on private property..But there aren't any fences,signs,notice's that the land is private...The police get called and I get arrested and hauled off to jail for trespassing....I guarantee it will get thrown out..How was I supposed to know I was trespassing? I was walking down public property, at what point did I cross onto private land? how was I supposed to know?

Fish4fun would you really take my license away becuase I was walking down the river bank in search of a good hole  ...you really think im that far out of line? It would be different if I was walking through someones front yard, to get to a little pond behind there house. But come on, your walking down the river bank, point A. is public land and point B. is private..There is nothing to signify a change in landownership, so you take a step onto point B...BAMN arressted and hauled off to jail?....Nope,sorry, ain't going to happen..That's not the way the law works.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

> sometimes the question of "am I trespassing" is best answerd by one's common sense...But other times there is NO way of knowing who's land you are on.


 "common sense"...............exactly.a little goes along way  
i agree there are certain situations such as you described(which i mentioned in my original post)and in such cases,most property ownersers aren't going press charges anyway.
but some people are missing the point.
that being,that no matter what the circumstances,if you enter any private property without permission,that is plain and simple TRESPASSING,as stated in the code that was posted.
would you escape prosecution for making a "mistake"?that's highly unlikey.
would i bet the ranch that you would?NO 
again,the key word in the argument is "knowingly".and in lots of trespass cases,the person knows they are trespassing,whether they plead ignorance or not  
and prosecution depends on whether or not the judge believes they didn't know.


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

acklac7 said:


> For instance, say I start out fishing at Griggs (city of columbus land) Then I start walking South...all of the sudden im on private property..But there aren't any fences,signs,notice's that the land is private...The police get called and I get arrested and hauled off to jail for trespassing....I guarantee it will get thrown out..How was I supposed to know I was trespassing? I was walking down public property, at what point did I cross onto private land? how was I supposed to know?


This is pretty much the setting I am thinking of too when it comes to trespassing (and was the setting for my case), not walking up to somebodys backyard and plopping down and casting. We talk "common sense" here, but that would be what I think the original poster has and therefor wasn't talking about somebodys backyard, but rather a setting like we have here. Which brings us back to the whole needing a fence or sign. Do you need a fence or sign to keep somebody out of your backyard pond? No, I would think not. This is where "common sense" would come into play and the cop would then laugh at you if you tried to argue your point of no sign/fence. Because your sign would be the house sitting right beside the pond you are fishing.


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

R&R,are you finally seeing the light?  
this quote from your first post is dead wrong(and contradictory).


> If the law hasn't changed from the last time I got in trouble for tresspassing, then you aint tresspassing unless there is a sign saying no tresspassing, or something like a fence up to block you (a fence by law is considered a no tresspassing sign).


first you say you got in trouble for trespassing,and then say you're not doing so if there are no signs or fences   
that first statement is the more true one of the two.you were trespassing,plain and simple.you just didn't have knowledge that you were,which is why you weren't prosecuted.
but i'm glad you finally admitted you were indeed trespassing,even though that may not have been your intent.


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## WINNER (Apr 7, 2004)

misfit said:


> but according to case histories,it's not legal.


You have got to be kidding me! Please reread these links...I think case histories will show just the opposite.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/stewardship:navigability
http://www.nationalrivers.org/us-law-menu.htm

Granted, these links are from interest groups biased in one direction, but they have done their research...American Whitewater actively defends our rights to use public waters and will defend you as well. I know at least one lawyer who works pro bono in these types of cases. 

There are two different issues being discussed in this thread. Navigability and trespassing. I've been down dozens of rivers for hundreds of miles both floating and walking. Been stopped numerous times by Game Wardens and once be a Sheriff. All at roads with private property surrounding...never had an issue...

Winner


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## misfit (Apr 5, 2004)

no,i'm not kidding you.im not going to sort through all that stuff,because i've already sorted through eneough.
the laws are open for iterpretation because there is no clear cut standard.at least not to my knowledge.or something's changed lately.
when you can show me a clear law stating you can wade through private property "legally",without permission,i'll concede.
i have done plenty of wading over the years on various streams on private property myself,and never had a problem either.but that doesn't mean it was legal.
as i said,if i can read a "law" that's states the legality,i'll be more than happy to accept your words and the written words of others.i'm not 100% positive such a law doesn't exist,and not afraid to admit i could be wrong,so please show me the law.


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

misfit said:


> R&R,are you finally seeing the light?


I still say you need signs or a fence. I don't change there. Just not in the "common sense" areas of your property. And I am saying that the cops won't do nothing the first time you do it. They will just tell you to leave and not return. Once again, I aint refering to the "common sense" areas of your property. I am saying, it aint my job to know your property line when i am in the woods, it is your job to post it if you don't want people unknowingly (key word here, unknowingly) coming onto your property.


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## noboatdave (May 5, 2004)

Rod&Reel said:


> I am saying, it aint my job to know your property line when i am in the woods, it is your job to post it if you don't want people unknowingly (key word here, unknowingly) coming onto your property.


That is probably the most ridiculous/stupid thing I have ever seen posted on a website. You are part of the reason landowners say 'no' when others knock on their door to ask for permission.


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

> I am saying, it aint my job to know your property line when i am in the woods, it is your job to post it if you don't want people unknowingly (key word here, unknowingly) coming onto your property.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. It is your job to know where you are. Once again, ignorance of a law is not a defense - No matter what the law is. Just because those, or yours, court cases were won does not mean that changes the law. You could have won for any one of a hundred reasons. Each case is different. 

I know this, if I did not post and you were trespassing on my property I would press charges and be legally within my rights as well, according to THE written letter of the law. You can interpret your side to the JUDGE. Like Misfit, I wouldn't bet the farm - but I guarantee I would have just as good of a chance to win my side of the case as you. 

And say you did get taken to court and plead not guilty based on ignorance of the law. If you did happen to win you now know it is private property and the intentions of the OWNER. Try it again and your ignorance defense no longer applies. Now what are you going to try as a defense?


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## WINNER (Apr 7, 2004)

Rod&Reel said:


> I still say you need signs or a fence.


You are supposed to know where you are relative to the earth, not the other way around. Seriously! There are plenty of maps out there that will tell you where you are...learn how to read them. It is your responsibility.

Winner


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## WINNER (Apr 7, 2004)

misfit said:


> no,i'm not kidding you.im not going to sort through all that stuff,because i've already sorted through eneough.
> the laws are open for iterpretation because there is no clear cut standard.at least not to my knowledge.or something's changed lately.
> when you can show me a clear law stating you can wade through private property "legally",without permission,i'll concede.
> i have done plenty of wading over the years on various streams on private property myself,and never had a problem either.but that doesn't mean it was legal.
> as i said,if i can read a "law" that's states the legality,i'll be more than happy to accept your words and the written words of others.i'm not 100% positive such a law doesn't exist,and not afraid to admit i could be wrong,so please show me the law.


OK...I can't find a "law" that will give either of us definitive proof either way. Upon further review I suppose we have statutes and some court cases that could be used to prove each of our points. Perhaps clear as mud would be an appropriate phrase. 
I'm no lawyer...I have spoken to a good one who has done lots of research into this matter and I feel confident when he tells me I have little to worry about. But he is just one man.

Can't wait for some weather and good levels! I think we could all use a little of that around here!  

Winner


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## Rod&Reel (Jun 4, 2005)

crankus_maximus said:


> And say you did get taken to court and plead not guilty based on ignorance of the law. If you did happen to win you now know it is private property and the intentions of the OWNER. Try it again and your ignorance defense no longer applies. Now what are you going to try as a defense?


Once again the key word...Unknowingly. If I came on your property a second time it would be unknowingly now would it......


WINNER said:


> You are supposed to know where you are relative to the earth, not the other way around. Seriously! There are plenty of maps out there that will tell you where you are...learn how to read them. It is your responsibility.
> 
> Winner


Knowing where I am on the earth has nothing do do with what property you are on. Does a GPS tell? No. Does a map (what you say get) tell you? No. And as far as learning to read a map.....lol if you can't read a map, something is wrong with you. Darn, if only a map told you the property lines. To bad they don't, so a map wouldn't help.



I am done with this thread. I know what I read in my hands when I was holding the Ohio Law book. Trespassing laws are pretty clear to me, it's the river, creek, and stream laws that aint to clear to me (the ownership part, not the trespassing part). You want to go back and forth on whats what, be my guest. I know what the Ohio Law book read when I caught this case, and if the law is still the same, it is pretty clear to me.

R&R out


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

> I know this, if I did not post and you were trespassing on my property I would press charges and be legally within my rights as well


You wouldnt be able to press charges unless You told the individual to leave and they came back or if your property was properly posted.Its hard to grasp this but maybe someday Youll understand.If You own some land call the police and tell them You have somebody tresspassing on Your land.See what they ask You.


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## Fish4Fun (Apr 6, 2004)

How about we put it this way unfortunately in todays society with the right amount of money and a really good lawyer anyone can win a case. It comes down to DOING THE RIGHT THING ITS NOT YOURS DON'T USE IT WITH OUT ASKING.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

> DOING THE RIGHT THING ITS NOT YOURS DON'T USE IT WITH OUT ASKING.


I 100% agree.


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## crankus_maximus (Apr 14, 2004)

I understand now. If somebody is trespassing and I want to press charges I can. I don't have to go through the police to press charges if they refuse to do anything. I understand. I work in the courts. Maybe some day you will understand that according to the written letter of the law you DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE PROPERTY POSTED for it to be trespassing. Lundy has said it. I have said it and others have said it. 

And yes, some maps do show property lines. They are readily available online through municipal GIS sources and the county auditors. Check them out.


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## acklac7 (May 31, 2004)

crankus_maximus said:


> according to the written letter of the law you DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE PROPERTY POSTED for it to be trespassing..


I'll agree...you do not have to have the property posted for it to be trespassing...If you own the land south of Griggs, and I walk onto it (assuming it's not posted) I will be trespassing..HOWEVER, you cannot charge me with trespassing..you can call the police all you want: there is nothing they can do...Now say you inform me the land is private and tell me to leave, and I refuse. At that point, and that point only, I can be charged with trespassing.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I am NOT saying that this law applies to stream beds and navigable waterways, It is very specific to hunting and trapping only. 

However I am 100% sure that it applies to hunting and trapping on private property. This law change and stiffer penalty is what convinced the farm Bureau to finally support the Sunday hunting bill that they had opposed for many, many years.

This law is what allows a Game Warden to help with trespassing problems. They have no authority to enforce trespass laws. They can enforce written permission laws. It's just a different way to address the same problem legally

This is the law, directly from the ODNR website.

Signs make ZERO difference in this instance


Permission to Hunt 

The landowners written permission is required for hunting and trapping on private land, *regardless of whether the land is posted*. Permission slips are available at Division of Wildlife district offices and some license outlets. 

The Penalty for Hunting Without Written Permission 

The maximum penalty for hunting without written permission of the landowner for a *first offense * is 60 days in jail and a $500 fine. The maximum penalty for a second offense is 90 days in jail and a $750 fine. 

A person must carry written permission at all times while engaging in hunting or trapping on private land and exhibit it upon request to a state wildlife officer, sheriff, deputy sheriff, police officer, other law enforcement officer, owner of the land, or the landowners authorized agent.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

> And yes, some maps do show property lines. They are readily available online through municipal GIS sources and the county auditors. Check them out.


Most the time those are a year or two behind.

Ill tell you the whole situation is a mess when it comes to whats private or public.Even the ODNR website list public access that is now private.Ive emailed them and told them it was wrong and yet it is still listed there today as public.The dale riddle forest products public land in Vinton County we hunted was a 170 acre parcel.We came out of the woods to a game warden waiting on us saying He got called out there cause we didnt have permission to hunt there.I told Him We were under the impression it was Public land and that was according to the ODNR website.The land was still marked with the familiar yellow paint.He was being real sarcastic and nasty until I pulled out the map I printed off the night before.He called into someone at the office and had them look it up on the site.We got off and He said he would make sure the problem would be addressed.


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## ostbucks98 (Apr 14, 2004)

This map might answer some questions.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/water/canals/relmapl.gif


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