# Maumee flatheads



## rutnut245

Me,my kid and a friend of mine fished the Maumee for flatties today.Four were around 8-10lbs. one about 15 lbs and of course we lost the big one right at the boat again,at least 25lbs.I know for sure there are much bigger fish in there we just haven't found them yet.Our timeing wasn't the best,we fished from noon till 4:30 useing live bluegills for bait.We fished current seams over sunken timber.Next time we're gonna pull an all-nighter and I think we'll do much better.


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## ERIE REBEL

Where were you fishig at?Yeah those were some babies.My PB was forty-two in.at thirty-nine pounds.Took twenty-seven minutes to get that one in the boat.We have a guy at work that loves fishing for flatties.A few weeks ago him and a buddy landed nine for a total weight of 178 pounds.


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## rutnut245

ER,I'm not gonna give a specific spot but we were puttin in right in your neighborhood.Yeah they were babies but we throw them all back after a quick weight of the really big ones.Next time out we're gonna give it a better effort,we found a lot of good lookin spots.Biggest last year were 42,35 and 33 lbs.I have cleaned and eaten a couple and couldn't believe the taste.They taste a whole lot better than they look.


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## Fisherman 3234

Was that 21 lb fish on maumee tackle's website kept for food? I love the taste of catfish but personally I wouldn't eat anything out of maumee river over 10 lbs regardless of species (channel or flathead), way to much farm run off and pollution. I may be mistaken but I believe the fish consumption advisory for maumee river is still 1 fish meal per month for channels and flatheads. Just remember that catch and release for the bigger fish is important for the general fish population in the river (Anything over 32 inches) due to these are the fish doing the majority of the spawning. A 30 + lb Flathead out of Maumee can take anywhere from 12 to 20 years to attain that size due to the amount of forage it has access to and its genetics. Maumee River has a great potential of producing 50 lb and 60 lb flatheads, we just need to let them to get that big. The population of flatheads in the river too is relatively young since they are not native (only about 3 generations of fish since they were first introduced in the mid 80s) so their numbers are still relatively low compared to other rivers in Ohio. I'm glad to hear that you are having luck on the river rutnut and wish you luck on your future fishing endeavors. Good luck and I'll probably see you down on the river sometime.


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## rutnut245

The fish in the Maumee tackle pictures were all released.A couple of my bigger ones weren't taken there because they wouldn't fit in my areated cooler.I've got a much bigger one now with a super saver areator,we go through a lot of bait.Out of all the flatties we caught I've only cleaned 3 of them between 8-10lbs.a few pics and they all go back.They must be very prolific cause we've been catchin a lot of small ones (4-6lbs.)on smaller baits.We've been catchin a lot more flatties than channels.Can't get the rods baited for channels past the sheephead to catch them.


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## ufaquaoiler

ive been wanting to go to the dam around grand rapids but havent been able to with all the higher water. dont want any secret spots by any means but where is a good general area to look for flatties at? anything i get will b CPRed as i will NOT eat a catfish outta the maumee!!!!! love em outta clean water...but last i checked maumee aint the cleanest.


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## Fisherman 3234

That is very good that you kept them alive for the contest, I know alot of guys who appreciate when the fish are photoed and released back into the river. However, usually when a fish gets entered into the maumee tackle contest its dead. One thing I'm curious about this year is when the flattys are going to start their spawn. With the unusually warm temperatures this year I would say that it's going to be at least a week earlier then normal (which may be beginning right now). It is also great to hear your running into some smaller fish, that is a good indication that the fish in that particular area are doing ok.


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## Fisherman 3234

ufaquaoiler said:


> ive been wanting to go to the dam around grand rapids but havent been able to with all the higher water. dont want any secret spots by any means but where is a good general area to look for flatties at? anything i get will b CPRed as i will NOT eat a catfish outta the maumee!!!!! love em outta clean water...but last i checked maumee aint the cleanest.


Anywhere down by the dams will have the potential of holding flatheads. If it looks like a good area, fish it. But your right on the water levels, they have been too high for quite sometime now.


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## rutnut245

Ufaquaoiler,to be honest we haven't been fishing anywhere near a dam,although I did catch a thirty+ at Grand Rapids last year.I never gave them a specific spot at MT,they put in Grand Rapids themselves.We've been useing a boat and fishing way upstream from GR.The high water just makes the catfishin better.They put on the feed bag and they're tight to the shore.I really enjoy it when the river is on the rise.Sunken timber on the inside of a current seam is allways a hot spot.I grew up fishin flats and blues in Al.a fifty lbs.fish doesn't bat an eye down there.I fish just upstream of timber,not right in it cause you'll never stop the big ones from goin back in.All the fish we've been catching are only 6-10' off shore.High water is much better than low.


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## ufaquaoiler

im not too familiar with the area outside walleye spots and the grand rapids dam...but would the ramp near the 475 bridge be a decent spot to start lookin?


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## rutnut245

Message sent.


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## ERIE REBEL

I wish more guys would keep them.I know that they are raising hell with some our native fish.We used to catch a lot of smallmouth in the river down around Florida and Indepence not to many anymore.I also haven't caught a resident walleye in several years not to mention the crappies.These cats are the top predator in the river now and they are capable of eating any damn thing they want.


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## Fisherman 3234

The Flatheads are not eating all the smallmouth. I believe the worst thing for the smallie and resident walleye populations in the summer is us (way to many guys keeping everything they catch). The news story that ran I believe last year with the flathead with a 20 inch smallie in his mouth was interesting too. The author was making it sound like the flathead was trying to eat the smallie BUT if you look at the date which was July 10th one would realize that the flatheads were spawning. Flattys are extremely protective of their nests. The smallie just got too close and the male Flatty was protecting its nest out of instinct not hunger. The crappie population is definitley not in trouble, I don't know how many of them I ran into last year while collecting bait all around 8-13 inches (all were returned to the river as they are a game fish). If flatheads preferred smallies as their main forage base there would be no smallies in the Ohio, GMR, Scioto, or Muskingum (Flattys native range in Ohio). But there is a really good populations of smallmouth in all these rivers. The flathead is a predator of opportunity and will eat whatever is most abundant in the river system. The flatheads main source of forage in Maumee river is gizzard shad, suckers, baby carp, and sunfish.


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## fishoner

so are they below or above gr dam


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## Flathead76

fishoner said:


> so are they below or above gr dam


Yes and yes.


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## flathunter

smallmouth bass make excellent flathead bait...I prefer cut bait and a smallmouth head is one of my top producers behind fresh cut shad.


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## H2O Mellon

ERIE REBEL said:


> I wish more guys would keep them.I know that they are raising hell with some our native fish.


Come on man.... show me some proof of this "hell" they are raising.


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## rutnut245

Of the few that I cleaned,only 2 had fed on fish I could identify and 1 had a shad and a small channel cat and the other was stuffed full of bullheads.


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## phisherman

A very reliable source of mine caught a flatty this spring, on a jig. He fought the fish for a while, and had hooked him in the back of the mouth. As he reached his hand in the flatty's mouth, the fish began to regurgitate a 17" eye.


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## Fisherman 3234

phisherman said:


> A very reliable source of mine caught a flatty this spring, on a jig. He fought the fish for a while, and had hooked him in the back of the mouth. As he reached his hand in the flatty's mouth, the fish began to regurgitate a 17" eye.


I'm curious, does anyone have any first hand accounts of a Flatty eating smallmouth or walleye? (In the wild without human influence)

I'm not saying I don't believe your friend it's that sometimes with these big fish stories can get over exaggerated. For instance, "My buddy knows a guy who used to dive down real deep to inspect dams for the state, and one day he came up as scared as could be because he saw a catfish the size of a volkswagon." Or another misconception that we have Blue catfish in Maumee river. I'm not saying it's impossible for a flatty to eat a walleye, just very, very, very unlikely.


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## Alter

Fisherman 3234 said:


> The population of flatheads in the river too is relatively young since they are not native (only about 3 generations of fish since they were first introduced in the mid 80s) so their numbers are still relatively low compared to other rivers in Ohio.


????
Flathead catfish (_Pylodictis olivaris_) have been documented in Lake Erie's western and central basins since the *1890s* with the population in the Huron River the most noted. There is some debate about whether they were introduced to Lakes Erie and Michigan in the late 1800s or are native, but there is no debate that they have been around much longer than the mid 1980s. Numbers of reported flatheads may be on the rise but that is most likely due to increased water quality and angler awareness rather than stocking.

Please see: 
*Hubbs, C. L.* 1926. A check list of the fishes of the Great Lakes and tributary waters, with nomenclatorial notes and analytical keys. Misc. Publ. Mus. Zool. Univ. Mich., No. 15: 1-77.
*Hubbs, C. L and K. F. Lagler*. 1964. Fishes of the Great Lakes Region. Univ. of Mich. Press. Ann Arbor: i-xv, 1-213.
*Trautman, M. B.* 1957. The fishes of Ohio. Ohio State Univ. Press, Columbus: i-xv, 1-683, col.pis. 7, figs. 172, maps i-xi, 1-172.

Steve


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## Fisherman 3234

Flatheads are native to the Ohio river basin only and it's tributaries here in Ohio. My source was the 2007 issue of the Catfish Insider (In-Fisherman) where they were talking about the great catfishing around the great lakes and how the flattys were stocked in the Maumee and Huron (Ohio) Rivers.


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## ufaquaoiler

if you look at what else a flathead eats then i wouldnt be a bit suprised to see a big catfish be able to eat a smaller walleye or smallmouth, although i would blame the lower smallmouth population on overharvest much more than catfish predation. look at a walleye and look at a sucker and you will see roughly the same body shape. no question flatheads eat suckers, but maumee river has TONS of those. also compare a smallmouth to a big shad or small carp/buffalo. all have a deeper but more flattened body than the walleye, but we also know flatheads eat young carp and shad too. no shortage of shad there and im sure everyones seen carp in the maumee thick enough to walk on their backs. we know bullheads are one of their favorite foods but no shortage of those stealing catfish lines either. after seeing countless full stringers of walleye and smallmouth come out of there and populations noticeably lower than past years but junk fish populations strong as ever...i blame overharvest a lot more than flatheads eating walleye and smallmouth.


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## rutnut245

Alter said:


> ????
> Flathead catfish (_Pylodictis olivaris_) have been documented in Lake Erie's western and central basins since the *1890s* with the population in the Huron River the most noted. There is some debate about whether they were introduced to Lakes Erie and Michigan in the late 1800s or are native, but there is no debate that they have been around much longer than the mid 1980s. Numbers of reported flatheads may be on the rise but that is most likely due to increased water quality and angler awareness rather than stocking.
> 
> Please see:
> *Hubbs, C. L.* 1926. A check list of the fishes of the Great Lakes and tributary waters, with nomenclatorial notes and analytical keys. Misc. Publ. Mus. Zool. Univ. Mich., No. 15: 1-77.
> *Hubbs, C. L and K. F. Lagler*. 1964. Fishes of the Great Lakes Region. Univ. of Mich. Press. Ann Arbor: i-xv, 1-213.
> *Trautman, M. B.* 1957. The fishes of Ohio. Ohio State Univ. Press, Columbus: i-xv, 1-683, col.pis. 7, figs. 172, maps i-xi, 1-172.
> 
> Steve


I have a close friend who'se been a commercial fisherman on the lake for over 30 yrs.They do target catfish and he's told me he's never seen one in the lake.I've been on the boat with him many times and I also never seen or heard of any come out of lake Erie.We've seen a lot of jumbo cats,never any flatties.


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## Fisherman 3234

Alter said:


> ????
> Flathead catfish (_Pylodictis olivaris_) have been documented in Lake Erie's western and central basins since the *1890s* with the population in the Huron River the most noted. There is some debate about whether they were introduced to Lakes Erie and Michigan in the late 1800s or are native, but there is no debate that they have been around much longer than the mid 1980s. Numbers of reported flatheads may be on the rise but that is most likely due to increased water quality and angler awareness rather than stocking.
> 
> Please see:
> *Hubbs, C. L.* 1926. A check list of the fishes of the Great Lakes and tributary waters, with nomenclatorial notes and analytical keys. Misc. Publ. Mus. Zool. Univ. Mich., No. 15: 1-77.
> *Hubbs, C. L and K. F. Lagler*. 1964. Fishes of the Great Lakes Region. Univ. of Mich. Press. Ann Arbor: i-xv, 1-213.
> *Trautman, M. B.* 1957. The fishes of Ohio. Ohio State Univ. Press, Columbus: i-xv, 1-683, col.pis. 7, figs. 172, maps i-xi, 1-172.
> 
> Steve


The common carp would be a more appropriate species to fit this description as they are an invasive species from Europe which was introduced to Ohio in the late 1800s. There may have been a few Flattys dumped into Lake Erie and Lake Michigan during that time but even if they were there probably wasn't enough fish to start a self-sustaining population. Also, sometimes you can't trust older sources such as these. For instance, if I were doing a research paper on this subject, I probably wouldn't cite a source more then 15 years old just because the field of science and biology is always changing (we are learning new things everyday) and since we now have the ability to look at DNA, we can make better conclusions. "The Great Lakes Region" doesn't necessarily mean that all of these fish on the list are found in Lake Erie. The 'region' might be referring to Ohio as a great lakes state. The increasing water quality in Lake Erie really has nothing to do with the increase in numbers either since Flatheads are fairly tolerant of turbid/mildly polluted water. This discussion does bring up something interesting though, and that's maybe we can all agree on that there needs to be more research done on these fish. I personally would like to see exactly how big they can get here in Ohio!


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## ufaquaoiler

although a bit harder to mistake a flathead for anything else, misidentification could have happened too. i couldn't tell you how many people ive seen catch a big channel cat only to call it a blue whether it be in a pond, sandusky river, findlay reservoir, or anywhere else. seems like any channel cat over 24" or even 20" with a bluish gray tint and no spots is a blue cat! the words "great lakes region" could also mean a number of things especially since we didnt even have anywhere near all 50 states as a nation back in the 1890s. perhaps it could have meant ohio river tributaries were close enough to the great lakes region, but since none of us were around in the 1890s to say for sure who knows. as a bachelor in biology myself i also would not use a scientific source more than 15 years old and rely on it since we are constantly making changes to what we "know" not only in biology, but all fields of science. agreed this could be a very interesting discussion!


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## Alter

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Flatheads are native to the Ohio river basin only and it's tributaries here in Ohio.


I'm not sure where you are getting you information from but there are those that get paid to study this sort of thing that think flatheads are native to Lakes Erie and Michigan (I'll link a source when I get home). Flatheads are certainly more common in the Ohio River drainage but this doesn't exclude them from also being "native" to the Lake Erie drainage. The Ohio river basin and Lake Erie river basin are, geologically speaking, *very* young. Lake Erie has only exhisted in any form for around 11,000 years. In it's current form and drainage pattern, Lake Erie has only exhisted for around 4,000 years. For a long time what became Lake Erie drained into what is now the Mississippi River. The fish species, including _Pylodictis olivaris_ IMHO, that populated Lake Erie after the last ice age came into the newly forming Great Lake from ancient river drainages that no longer exhist. The fact that a species is present in the Ohio River drainage actually argues _for_ the fact that said species at least had access to Lake Erie thousands of years ago. Whether or not flatheads became established at this time or were re-introduced as a food source to a much smaller and different Lake Erie in the 1800s is the debate. Flatheads were sampled in Lake Erie tributaries as early as 1895 ( documented by Kirsch PH. 1895. A report upon investigations in the Maumee River basin during the summer of 1893- Bull. U. S. Fish Comm.14(1894):31-41.) and while they may be extirpated around Cleveland they have been sampled in small numbers but continously to the west.



Fisherman 3234 said:


> My source was the 2007 issue of the Catfish Insider (In-Fisherman) where they were talking about the great catfishing around the great lakes and how the flattys were stocked in the Maumee and Huron Rivers.


While I don't know who wrote the article you are referring to, I believe we can agree that articles from fishing magazines aren't the best references especially when compared to the work of Dr. M.B. Trautman who's life work _The Fishes of Ohio_ is cannon when it comes to these matters. Also, I don't know if flatheads were stocked to augment the population at some point (I have no knowledge of this to be true or false) my arguement is with the false notion that flatheads did not exist in Lake Erie and its tributaries prior to the 1980s which is false.


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## Alter

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Also, sometimes you can't trust older sources such as these. For instance, if I were doing a research paper on this subject, I probably wouldn't cite a source more then 15 years old just because the field of science and biology is always changing (we are learning new things everyday) and since we now have the ability to look at DNA, we can make better conclusions.


I'm pretty sure Trautman is a trusted source on these matters regardless of the age of the text. BTW my Ph.D. is in genetics so, while I don't do a great deal of sequencing anymore, I'm familiar with DNA




Fisherman 3234 said:


> "The Great Lakes Region" doesn't necessarily mean that all of these fish on the list are found in Lake Erie. The 'region' might be referring to Ohio as a great lakes state.


No. The references I list are specific to Lake Erie and its tributaries.




Fisherman 3234 said:


> This discussion does bring up something interesting though, and that's maybe we can all agree on that there needs to be more research done on these fish. I personally would like to see exactly how big they can get here in Ohio!


I guess the point I would like to make is that there is a good amount of research that has been done and published but people tend to believe what they read in fishing magazines rather than the research.

Steve


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## Fisherman 3234

You do know that you are still referring to sources in which the last one was dated in 1964 right? Nobody in their right mind would use those as a source if they were researching this subject right now for a current study. If there are so many people getting paid to study such things then where is the *current* evidence? If there were Flatheads present in Erie after the Glaciers receded, where did they go? I'm also familiar with the geology of Ohio and Lake Erie and that there are several interesting features around lake Erie that were left by the glaciers.... I threw out the source of In-Fisherman because they usually don't focus on opinion they focus on science even though they are a "Fishing magazine." I think the problem here is how do you define "native." Also, one more thing, who says I'm not a Biologist?


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## Fisherman 3234

The bottom line is that the population of Flatheads *CURRENTLY* in Maumee and Huron Rivers are descendants of fish that have been stocked there fairly recently.


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## Alter

Here is the link I promised. You'll notice this comes from the Great Lakes Environmental Research Laboratory. The data comes from "The Life of the Lakes: A Guide to the Great Lakes Fishery" published in 2003  by Michigan Sea Grant College Program. 

You can clearly see that Flathead Catfish have an "N" in the Lake Michigan and Lake Erie columns but are not present in the other columns for the other Great Lakes. the key clearly explains the "N" stands for *NATIVE*. Also, when they refer to Lake Erie that are talking about the actual lake and its tributaries not the greater Lake Erie region or any other nonsense.

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/seagrant/GLWL/Fish/catfish/catfish.html




> You do know that you are still referring to sources in which the last one was dated in 1964 right? Nobody in their right mind would use those as a source if they were researching this subject right now for a current study.


Actually, when talking about historical populations it is proper to use the original literature. How can I refute the misinformation that flatheads were introduced in the 1980s if I'm not permitted to use references from prior to 1995



> Also, one more thing, who says I'm not a Biologist?


I hope never lose my funding and am forced to teach. I don't think I could take it.

Steve


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## Fisherman 3234

Fisherman 3234 said:


> The bottom line is that the population of Flatheads *CURRENTLY* in Maumee and Huron Rivers are descendants of fish that have been stocked there fairly recently.


Unless you have concrete evidence (genetic) that the (keyword) *CURRENT* fish out of Maumee River are not descendants from stocked fish I'm going to call shenanigans. I would really like to see any research (not a chart with "N") to explain why there are no (verified) reproducing Flathead populations in the Sandusky, Portage, Vermillion, Cuyahoga, or Grand Rivers which are also tributaries of Lake Erie. But like I also said, this probably depends on what your definition of "native" is. This is very interesting I'm going to check into this one....... Oh and I never did lose funding, I chose to teach. Great comment by the way!


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## Alter

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Unless you have concrete evidence (genetic) that the (keyword) *CURRENT* fish out of Maumee River are not descendants from stocked fish I'm going to call shenanigans. I would really like to see any research (not a chart with "N") to explain why there are no reproducing Flathead populations in the Sandusky, Portage, Vermillion, Cuyahoga, or Grand Rivers which are also tributaries of Lake Erie.


Perhaps you could come up with a reference other than a single article article in In-Fisherman? I must have missed when they became a peer review journal . Obviously, data from the folks at the Great Lakes Environmental Research Laboratory and the godfather of Ohio naturalists doesn't compare with an article written by Bubba McStinkbait or whoever wrote the fishing magizine's article. Could you perhaps point me to the data in the In-Fisherman article to proves that all of Lake Erie's flatheads originate from fish stocked in the 1980's rather than fish that were present prior to that time?

By the way, the research summarized in the chart can be found in "The Life of the Lakes: A Guide to the Great Lakes Fishery" published in 2003 by the Michigan Sea Grant College Program. I mentioned this above but perhaps you missed it. Since you claim to be a professor (????) you should have access to this publication. If you can't access it I will try to provide you with a .pdf copy if that would be helpful



Fisherman 3234 said:


> This is very interesting I'm going to check into this one.......


Good luck

Steve


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## Fisherman 3234

Alter said:


> Perhaps you could come up with a reference other than a single article article in In-Fisherman? I must have missed when they became a peer review journal . Obviously, data from the folks at the Great Lakes Environmental Research Laboratory and the godfather of Ohio naturalists doesn't compare with an article written by Bubba McStinkbait or whoever wrote the fishing magizine's article. Could you perhaps point me to the data in the In-Fisherman article to proves that all of Lake Erie's flatheads originate from fish stocked in the 1980's rather than fish that were present prior to that time?
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Steve


Here is the Article from the *Catfish- Insider* 2007 "Great Lakes Catfish Stateside" 

"Along Lake Erie, catfishing can be phenomenal, says *Jeff Tyson, Fisheries Biology Supervisor for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources*. During May and June, channel catfish move near shore for spawning on flats, particularly sandflats, with anglers catching mixed bags from 14 to 16 inch eaters to 20 pounders. Good fishing lasts through summer in many areas.

Tyson recommends several options, including Metzger's Marsh, located 13 miles east of Toledo, Ohio. Anglers catch lots of catfish in the canal, and those in the main lake are accessible by boat or from the fishing pier. Other options according to Tyson include the Maumee River and the Bayshore access at the powerplant in Maumee Bay near Toledo. The Huron River from Huron upstream to Milan is another good bet for channels. Both the Maumee and Huron were historically stocked with flatheads, with remnant populations and larger flatheads existing in both rivers." If anyone would like to double check this, be my guest!

Who may be right? I'm not even sure!!!!

Good night everybody!!!!!


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## Alter

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Here is the Article from the *Catfish- Insider* 2007 "Great Lakes Catfish Stateside"
> 
> "Along Lake Erie, catfishing can be phenomenal, says *Jeff Tyson, Fisheries Biology Supervisor for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources*. During May and June, channel catfish move near shore for spawning on flats, particularly sandflats, with anglers catching mixed bags from 14 to 16 inch eaters to 20 pounders. Good fishing lasts through summer in many areas.
> 
> Tyson recommends several options, including Metzger's Marsh, located 13 miles east of Toledo, Ohio. Anglers catch lots of catfish in the canal, and those in the main lake are accessible by boat or from the fishing pier. Other options according to Tyson include the Maumee River and the Bayshore access at the powerplant in Maumee Bay near Toledo. The Huron River from Huron upstream to Milan is another good bet for channels. Both the Maumee and Huron were historically stocked with flatheads, with remnant populations and larger flatheads existing in both rivers.
> 
> Who may be right? I'm not even sure!!!!


I'm going to have to be a jerk and say that hopefully it is becoming even more obvious that I am  Please note, I've never argued that the DNR or its precursors did or did not try to stock flatheads in any river. There was a time when the "DNR" was very cavalier with fish stockings.

BTW, I believe I have a good reference to the history of flatheads in the Cleveland area (where most think they are extirpated) but it is on the computer in my office at work. Of course it is a review that references papers that are mostly greater than 15 years old since the fish haven't been found in any numbers in the area in quite some time. I can post a link to the .pdf tomorrow.
I personally documented a single specimen taken from the Grand River by a fisherman near the Vrooman Rd. bridge in 2005. 

Also, while the In-Fisherman article used Jeff Tyson's name, it is misleading to believe Jeff actually said * >Both the Maumee and Huron were historically stocked with flatheads, with remnant populations and larger flatheads existing in both rivers <*. You will notice this line is not actually in quotations in the article nor is it directly attributed to Mr. Tyson. The only words that can be pinned to Jeff are that "Along Lake Erie, catfishing can be phenomenal" and that Tyson recommends "Metzger's Marsh" and the "Maumee River and the Bayshore access at the powerplant in Maumee Bay near Toledo" none of which are going out on a limb. The rest of the information in those paragraphs, while mixed in with Jeff Tyson's words, can't be tied directly to Tyson. The article's author, Bubba McStinkbait, is using an old journalistic ploy to give credence to his unsubstantiated opinions by making the reader believe they came from an "expert's" mouth.


Steve


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## rutnut245

Not trying to stir the pot but if flatheads are present in Erie,in any great number.Wouldn't you think commercial fishermen that target catfish,would have caught at least a couple?These guys catch alot of weird fish in those trap nets.The nets you see close to shore are the ones after cats.I'm not a biologist by any means but I think they might be more of a river fish.If they're in the Maumee you'ld think some have washed into the lake.I've just never heard of any.


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## Fisherman 3234

Fisherman 3234 said:


> The bottom line is that the population of Flatheads *CURRENTLY* in Maumee and Huron Rivers are descendants of fish that have been stocked there fairly recently.


All the information in the article was provided by Jeff Tyson. You can either believe it came from him directly or not. That is why what I posted it, to me makes since. If you ask anglers who have fished Maumee River their entire lives you will find out the first fish that they started to catch was towards the late 80s. I've talked with several anglers about this very same subject and they all agree. Just from being on the river and seeing the size and frequency of fish first hand I would have to go with that they were stocked, and now there is a young reproducing population. One of the reasons why I highly recommend the Catifish Insider is that they do provide a lot of good scientific information about Flattys such as seasonal movements, feeding habits of fish, exactly how the fish spawn, how releasing the bigger fish is essential for keeping those good genetics in the system, and they provide some current studies that are being conducted by certain universities on the fish.

I have a feeling on this one we are both right in a way.


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## Mushijobah

No offense Fisherman 3234...but Alter is correct...flatheads have been in the Maumee for a while....more than 3 generations .

Alter cited multiple actual scientific sources. You cited a catfish article.. No one disses The Troutman either...that's what tipped me off to the fact that you were not looking at this from a scientific background .

I repeat, flatheads were present in the Erie drainage PRIOR to the 1980s....100 years prior! With the advent of Catch/Release, increased water quality, the information age (internet)....reports of them have increased. Plenty have been caught in the past...just not accurately reported.

Jeff Tyson, was indeed misquoted. If you asked him in person, he would either believe flatheads are either:

A. Flatheads are native to those rivers.
B. Flatheads were introduced to those rivers many many many years ago.

Those seem to be the only two acceptable hypothesis for Ohio ichth. experts.

Hope that helps.


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## Alter

Fisherman 3234 said:


> All the information in the article was provided by Jeff Tyson.



No it wasn't. Since your lone piece of "evidence" seems to be a line you misattributed to Jeff Tyson, why don't you contact him via email at [email protected] 
I bet he would be happy to answer any questions you have and clear the matter up.




Fisherman 3234 said:


> If you ask anglers who have fished Maumee River their entire lives you will find out the first fish that they started to catch was towards the late 80s. I've talked with several anglers about this very same subject and they all agree.


While creel surveys and angler interviews might have their place (generally at the bottom of a trash can) they should never trump actual tangible data (such as preserved samples).



Fisherman 3234 said:


> Just from being on the river and seeing the size and frequency of fish first hand I would have to go with that they were stocked, and now there is a young reproducing population.


That's a nice hypothesis. However, it is not the only possible, or most likely correct, hypothesis. You've been presented with an alternate hypothesis (flatheads have been in the LE watershed for a long time) along with data to back it up but you choose to ignore it.



Fisherman 3234 said:


> One of the reasons why I highly recommend the Catifish Insider is that they do provide a lot of good scientific information about Flattys such as seasonal movements, feeding habits of fish, exactly how the fish spawn, how releasing the bigger fish is essential for keeping those good genetics in the system, and they provide some current studies that are being conducted by certain universities on the fish.


I'm sure some of what they provide is good information. But they are *not scientific source material*!!! While it is admirable that they try to bring science to the average fisherman; if you want the straight poop you still have to go to the primary literature.



Fisherman 3234 said:


> I have a feeling on this one we are both right in a way.



No, I'm pretty sure just one of us is right and I believe it is important that we establish who it is. If people are allowed to erroneously believe that flatheads were recently introduced, this could lead some to believe they are no more than an invasive species that will destroy the smallmouth and walleye (or insert favorite fish here) populations in the rivers where they were 'stocked'. If people know that flatheads are native to Lake Erie, or at least have been there for a hundred+ years, it is easier to convince them that flatheads are no threat to Lake Erie or her tributaries.

Steve


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## Alter

Not sure that it'll help, but thanks for trying :C

Steve



Mushijobah said:


> No offense Fisherman 3234...but Alter is correct...flatheads have been in the Maumee for a while....more than 3 generations .
> 
> Alter cited multiple actual scientific sources. You cited a catfish article.. No one disses The Troutman either...that's what tipped me off to the fact that you were not looking at this from a scientific background .
> 
> I repeat, flatheads were present in the Erie drainage PRIOR to the 1980s....100 years prior! With the advent of Catch/Release, increased water quality, the information age (internet)....reports of them have increased. Plenty have been caught in the past...just not accurately reported.
> 
> Jeff Tyson, was indeed misquoted. If you asked him in person, he would either believe flatheads are either:
> 
> A. Flatheads are native to those rivers.
> B. Flatheads were introduced to those rivers many many many years ago.
> 
> Those seem to be the only two acceptable hypothesis for Ohio ichth. experts.
> 
> Hope that helps.


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## Fisherman 3234

Mushi, I wasn't dissing Trautman, I just merely would like an explaination as to why there is a reproducing Flathead population in the Maumee and Huron rivers and not the rest. If I were to pick an answer there I would probably pick B. Can anybody out there answer this question? I will concede the fact that the Flatheads were native to the Lake Erie watershed at sometime but what happened to them in the other river systems? Are the Flattys in Maumee descendants of stocked fish or native? Mushi can you shine some light on this, as I will take your word over anyone else. Can we all agree though that there needs to be more research on these fish? Notice how I haven't been trying to put anyone down in this discussion either, while Alter has tried to do so at every turn. Someone has been in the lab for way to long!


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## Hoosier Daddy

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Mushi, I wasn't dissing Trautman, I just merely would like an explaination as to why there is a reproducing Flathead population in the Maumee and Huron rivers and not the rest. If I were to pick an answer there I would probably pick B. Can anybody out there answer this question? I will concede the fact that the Flatheads were native to the Lake Erie watershed at sometime but what happened to them in the other river systems? Are the Flattys in Maumee descendants of stocked fish or native? Mushi can you shine some light on this, as I will take your word over anyone else. Can we all agree though that there needs to be more research on these fish? Notice how I haven't been trying to put anyone down in this discussion either, while Alter has tried to do so at every turn. Someone has been in the lab for way to long!


Hey he did tell you "I'm going to have to be a jerk"


People tend to type different then they would speak in person.

I think it has been pretty well established in this thread and elsewhere that Flatheads have been around for awhile in the Maumee. Why the perceived increase in populations/size ect... seems up for debate, but I would imagine there would be some stocking data available if the DNR did stock them or you can get it straight from the horses mouth with the e-mail address he gave you.

The take away is don't kill the flatties unless your gonna eat them. And if your gonna eat them I wouldn't eat the big ones or alot of them for health reasons. The perceived drop in smallie catches/walleye catches ect... has very if any coorelation to flatties IMO. You want to help game fish work on overbaggers/commercial fishing/water quality/habitat loss ect..not eliminating the flathead population.


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## Alter

Hoosier Daddy said:


> Hey he did tell you "I'm going to have to be a jerk"


I may have to add that to my signature :Banane36:

Steve


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## ufaquaoiler

Hoosier Daddy said:


> The take away is don't kill the flatties unless your gonna eat them. And if your gonna eat them I wouldn't eat the big ones or alot of them for health reasons. The perceived drop in smallie catches/walleye catches ect... has very if any coorelation to flatties IMO. You want to help game fish work on overbaggers/commercial fishing/water quality/habitat loss ect..not eliminating the flathead population.


gotta agree with ya 100% hoosier! although i love cajun fried catfish outta clean water, any catfish i catch in maumee goes back simply because i dont wanna eat catfish from maumee river. although i dount doubt many flatheads have tasted smallmouth or small walleye before, i will not believe they are the cause of the smallmouth drop when i see stringers full of legal and illegal sized fish come outta there. as i said before, every one of the buffalo in there thick enough to walk across the river on their backs used to be able to fit in a flathead mouth and sucker, shad, and bullhead populations are fine too. id love to see the day several people with 10 undersized smallies get a ticket, but who knows if many of us will get to see that at all


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## Mushijobah

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Mushi, I wasn't dissing Trautman, I just merely would like an explaination as to why there is a reproducing Flathead population in the Maumee and Huron rivers and not the rest. If I were to pick an answer there I would probably pick B. Can anybody out there answer this question? I will concede the fact that the Flatheads were native to the Lake Erie watershed at sometime but what happened to them in the other river systems? Are the Flattys in Maumee descendants of stocked fish or native? Mushi can you shine some light on this, as I will take your word over anyone else. Can we all agree though that there needs to be more research on these fish? Notice how I haven't been trying to put anyone down in this discussion either, while Alter has tried to do so at every turn. Someone has been in the lab for way to long!


I will provide this explaination as to why flatheads are reproducing in Maumee and Huron:

These rivers that feed into Lake Erie are very very similar to other rivers in Ohio that happen to be within the Ohio River watershed. That is why they are reproducing.

To answer your question regarding why people hadn't seen them very often...this phenomenon occurs in streams around Central Ohio that have been dammed up. Upstream of the dam, the local flathead populations were either caught and eaten, or were decimated by pollution during the 19th/20th century. Stretches below these dams were able to recover via downstream migration...but areas upstream are left without these fish. A great example of this is the upper Olentangy and upper Scioto. While a few flatheads do exist upstream of the dams...it is noticably less than the populations below them.

How they got there? Birds? Native Americans? European Settlers? Black Swamp connections with the Ohio River Watershed? Or perhaps they have been living there since the last ice age? Genetic testing may be able to tell us if they are unique in comparison to the Ohio River strain. This has been done with Walleye and Muskie. The results could also be inconclusive...and that would not discredit the possibility that they are simple the same strain, native to different areas.

The situation can be summed up with a giant ?


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## rutnut245

My kid and I went again last night and we only landed 2,one 20+lbs and another around 12.We were using bluegills again and I should have brought my heavier rig,I hade 2 fish break 30lbs power pro.I was pretty bummed cause I'm sure one went well over 40lbs.I will be using the heavy rig with 65 lbs line next time.


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## Fisherman 3234

Mushijobah said:


> I will provide this explaination as to why flatheads are reproducing in Maumee and Huron:
> 
> These rivers that feed into Lake Erie are very very similar to other rivers in Ohio that happen to be within the Ohio River watershed. That is why they are reproducing.
> 
> To answer your question regarding why people hadn't seen them very often...this phenomenon occurs in streams around Central Ohio that have been dammed up. Upstream of the dam, the local flathead populations were either caught and eaten, or were decimated by pollution during the 19th/20th century. Stretches below these dams were able to recover via downstream migration...but areas upstream are left without these fish. A great example of this is the upper Olentangy and upper Scioto. While a few flatheads do exist upstream of the dams...it is noticably less than the populations below them.
> 
> How they got there? Birds? Native Americans? European Settlers? Black Swamp connections with the Ohio River Watershed? Or perhaps they have been living there since the last ice age? Genetic testing may be able to tell us if they are unique in comparison to the Ohio River strain. This has been done with Walleye and Muskie. The results could also be inconclusive...and that would not discredit the possibility that they are simple the same strain, native to different areas.
> 
> The situation can be summed up with a giant ?


Thank you for your input Mushi. I know that these rivers are similar to some of those found in the Ohio river water shed but so are the Portage and Sandusky which are located in between the Maumee and Huron. Why isn't there a *strong* population in these rivers?

Rutnut, I had the same thing happen to me this year with my first hook up. My big fish got me wrapped around a snag though and I lost it. It always feels like a punch in the gut when you lose a really nice fish.


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## Mushijobah

Fisherman 3234 said:


> Thank you for your input Mushi. I know that these rivers are similar to some of those found in the Ohio river water shed but so are the Portage and Sandusky which are located in between the Maumee and Huron. Why isn't there a strong population in these rivers?
> 
> Rutnut, I had the same thing happen to me this year with my first hook up. My big fish got me wrapped around a snag though and I lost it. It always feels like a punch in the gut when you lose a really nice fish.


The Portage River has confirmed flathead catfish (OEPA 2008)

I'm looking for a data from the Sandusky now.


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## Mushijobah

Update....just found Sandusky River data from 2009....Flatheads present...some realllly nice ones too. 24 lb. flathead was caught during testing...it's usually hard to get them that large during testing..


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## yonderfishin

Flatheads are an invasive species that are not natural to many rivers and lakes where they are now present. I forget where I read it but some years ago I read where they were now present in most of the major rivers and lakes in the eastern half of the United States and many of the western half. Im not sure if thats true or not but every year more and more locations are reporting catches of them so its not unthinkable or impossible. Many places they kill them when caught whether they eat them or not because of the size they can get and all the other gamefish species they can eat.


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## Mushijobah

yonderfishin said:


> Flatheads are an invasive species that are not natural to many rivers and lakes where they are now present. I forget where I read it but some years ago I read where they were now present in most of the major rivers and lakes in the eastern half of the United States and many of the western half. Im not sure if thats true or not but every year more and more locations are reporting catches of them so its not unthinkable or impossible. Many places they kill them when caught whether they eat them or not because of the size they can get and all the other gamefish species they can eat.


Please refer to previous posts.


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## Fisherman 3234

Mushijobah said:


> Update....just found Sandusky River data from 2009....Flatheads present...some realllly nice ones too. 24 lb. flathead was caught during testing...it's usually hard to get them that large during testing..


Mushi I know they shocked up a few fish out of the Portage and Sandusky (I posted on it when the story came out last year), but it was my understanding that these were only a few individuals suggesting that there is not a strong reproducing population present. It's a good possibility that these fish were probably transplants from the Maumee or Huron also (some guys like to play johnny appleseed). Were there any other specimens shocked up in the fish surveys previous to the last couple of years?


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## Fisherman 3234

I received an e-mail response back from Mr. Tyson over the Flathead population in Maumee River. It was very interesting. Here it is.

Hello Mr. Tyson my name is John and I had a question that you might be able to help me answer. In the article "Great Lakes Catfish Stateside" in the Catfish Insider 2007 issue, it was reported that you gave the information that both Maumee and Huron rivers were historically stocked with Flatheads, with remnant populations and larger Flatheads existing in both rivers. Was that a misquote by the magazine, if not when did the last stocking happen in both these rivers? Is the current population of flatheads in Maumee river descendants of those stocked fish or are they descendants of native fish? Also, since the flatheads are native to the Lake Erie watershed why don't they have reproducing populations in other rivers such as the Sandusky, Portage, Vermillion, and Cuyahoga? I would greatly appreciate your expertise and help with these questions.

Thank you,

So is it accurate to say that the Flatheads that were present in Lake Erie in the 1890s are 100% without a doubt "native"????? The Catfish Insider also did not misquote Tyson either like others had believed. Also, there were stocking programs during the 80s, suggesting that the current fish population in Maumee River is probably from those stocked fish, but it is not a definite conclusion. Alter, it turns out that you were not 100% correct but at the same time neither was I. 

This was an interesting discussion, definitely a lot of good information shared, and learned. The information provided by Mr. Tyson is paramount in this discussion. Thank you Mr. Tyson once again for the information. 

"The take away is don't kill the flatties unless your gonna eat them. And if your gonna eat them I wouldn't eat the big ones or alot of them for health reasons. The perceived drop in smallie catches/walleye catches ect... has very if any coorelation to flatties IMO. You want to help game fish work on overbaggers/commercial fishing/water quality/habitat loss ect..not eliminating the flathead population."----Hoosier Daddy

That right there was the entire point of my earlier posts, Thank you Hoosier Daddy.


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## Mushijobah

It doesn't sound like he's suggesting the fish you are catching are direct descendants of the ones stocked in the 80s. People caught them in those rivers prior to then...just not as often. For all we know, there could have been a small group of guys slamming them year after year in the Maumee...only now the secret has gotten out. I believe this phenomenon is either due to more modern angling techniques (as I mentioned, a global availability of fishing techniques and tackle was not available prior to the internet)....the poor state of the rivers during the the beginning of the 20th century.......or due to overfishing.


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## Alter

LOL, you are a far more patient man than I Mushijobah .

Steve


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## Fisherman 3234

Mushijobah said:


> It doesn't sound like he's suggesting the fish you are catching are direct descendants of the ones stocked in the 80s. People caught them in those rivers prior to then...just not as often. For all we know, there could have been a small group of guys slamming them year after year in the Maumee...only now the secret has gotten out. I believe this phenomenon is either due to more modern angling techniques (as I mentioned, a global availability of fishing techniques and tackle was not available prior to the internet)....the poor state of the rivers during the the beginning of the 20th century.......or due to overfishing.


"Also, there were stocking programs during the 80s, suggesting that the current fish population in Maumee River is probably from those stocked fish, but it is not a definite conclusion."

I said it suggested that these are descendants of stocked fish not Mr.Tyson. I do believe that there is a newspaper article where they had reported on a few flatheads starting to be caught in 1987 (not that they may not have been in the river all along), but I will try to look for it.

Man I just can't win with you guys!

I'm just saying it's a possibility. But as of right now it is inconclusive. 

Alter, I'm still waiting for you to admit you were not 100% right!!!!!!!!!


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## Mushijobah

Fisherman 3234 said:


> "Also, there were stocking programs during the 80s, suggesting that the current fish population in Maumee River is probably from those stocked fish, but it is not a definite conclusion."
> 
> I said it suggested that these are descendants of stocked fish not Mr.Tyson. I do believe that there is a newspaper article where they had reported on a few flatheads starting to be caught in 1987 (not that they may not have been in the river all along), but I will try to look for it.
> 
> Man I just can't win with you guys!
> 
> I'm just saying it's a possibility. But as of right now it is inconclusive.
> 
> Alter, I'm still waiting for you to admit you were not 100% right!!!!!!!!!


They were there before 1980...and being caught before 1980...that's all I'm sayin. Take it or leave it, doesn't bother me!  Consider purchasing a copy of Fishes of Ohio by Milton Trautman...great book...some info is aged (revised in the 1980s), but in this case everything is there that you would need...when in doubt, reach for the Traut!


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## cattin15

hit the maumee last night, caught a total of 5 and broke 5 off from 8-20 pounds, fun night


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## rutnut245

Went to Independance dam to do a fathersday, fishin, picnic combo.The food and weather was great but we didn't do so hot fishing,only 2 good bites all day.We were using very big baits though.One fish came unbuttoned and the other wrapped around some junk on the bottom.We'll go back with the boat and I'm sure we'll do much better.I only saw 3 flatties caught,nothin over 15lbs.It was still a great day spent with my son.


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