# Ready to abandon Braided line: Change my mind



## freshwater_newb

Short Version:

I just switched to braided line, PowerPro hi-vis yellow 20lb strength/ 6lb diameter, and am getting terrible knots/ tangles forming while casting. The knots/tangles look like "wind knots" but are not. I'm getting so fed up with this situation that I'm nearly ready to throw out the braid and re-spool with mono.

This is what it looks like on low-res phone pic










Detailed Version:

Gear List: 
Rod- Cabela's tourney trails, IM7 rod, ML,1/8-1/2oz lure weight, 4-10lb test line, MF action.
Reel- Pflueger President spinning reel 6730, 4-8lb test line
Backing- 20yds Trilene 18lb test mono
Main Line- 70 yds, PowerPro 20lb test/6lb diameter hi-vis yellow
Leader- Berkley Vanish 15lb test Fluoro leader, 1.5-6ft depending on application

Knot List:
Reel to Backing- Arbor
Backing to Main line- Modified Albright/ Alberto
Main Line to Leader- 6-Turn Yucatan (I use the Yucatan here since it is not only very strong, but super small and narrow and doesn't clip or bind up on the smaller guides of the rod when casting like I felt the Alberto knot I started out using was doing)

I have studied google searches for the past week on these types of problem tangles/knots with braided line and have tried every suggested fix. While several of these tactics have lessened the occurance of these tangles, nothing has worked to eliminate the problem entirely and the tangles remain nearly impossible to undo. I have even altered my style of casting to try and stop these tangles from happening.

Below are a couple of the more informative links that I found to be helpful. Big thanks to user &#8216;High Plains Drifter&#8217; from stripersonline.com who seems to be the OP of both of these links AND has thought long and hard about braided line.

http://surfishmexico.pbworks.com/w/page/19215713/All about wind knots

http://www.stripersonline.com/t/671111/curing-wind-knot-problems-an-illustrative-story

I took all of the knowledge I gained by studying this issue over the past week and several sinkers throughout the rated range of the rod plus one weight above and below (1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 ounces) out to a soccer field and practiced casting. I was still getting these tangles/"wind knots" but they were a little less frequent, maybe once every 16 casts vs. once every 4 or 6. 

A side effect of this change of style is that I am also NOT getting the same maximum distance I was getting from mono line, least 5-7 yards shorter on average. 

From what I have been reading, this is the exact OPPOSITE effect one should expect with braided line vs. mono. Increased casting distance being one of the advertised benefits of braided lines.

I suspect this is because of not being able to 'pre-load' the rod for power casts. My definition of pre-loading being a whipping type movement on the end of the backswing which flexes the rod tip and adds, well an additional 5-7 yards of distance it seems. This braided line, and power casts with a pre-load has a 100% incidence of "wind knot"/ tangle. 

Maybe I can live with this? Maybe the advantage of a heavier test line and all its benefits outweighs the loss of distance and the occasional 20-30 minute detangling session?

I go home and weigh ALL of my lures and rigs. I need to know how far I can chuck these things now with braided line. I need to adjust my expectations to match what I learned from mapping my setup's casting distance with equivalent weighted sinkers. 

Did you know that a 5" Senko with a 3/0 Gamakatsu Skip Gap hook rigged weightless Texas style weighs 8 grams, just a tad over 1/4 ounce?

I go fishing with my braided line again, though, this time, I get smart and find a parking lot adjacent to a decent creek and don't survival hike a half hour into the brambles to a remote location only to spend the entire time UN-knitting instead of fishing. 

I go to a place I took my kids when I had 6 lb mono on this very same reel and rod where I know if I power-cast the above mentioned 5" Senko with 3/0 Gamakatsu Skip Gap hook rigged weightless Texas style, I can just barely make it to the opposite bank so the current can then sweep it into a pool where some very small, but very greedy, smallmouth live.

Ahh, we are being smart here aren't we? Just cast toward that spot gently. Start slowly. See how it goes. Then slowly increase the power until, if everything works out, you can hit the mark.

Make sure you are not casting when the line is at the top or bottom of the spool; for safety's sake be certain it is dead center on the spool; make sure that the line is not visibly lying across itself on the spool; make sure that the line was reeled in under sufficient tension so that it lies straight and flat and that there are no loose wraps when you run your thumb over the spool; make sure that the line is not lying over the top of the spool; do all of the annoying things you read about to attempt to prevent these damnable tangles! Also, be sure to obsessively pull at the line against the pressure of the drag multiple times while reeling in, after the lure hits the water, after reeling in, before casting, etc, and every chance you get to be certain that the braided line is lying tight against the spool so not a loop has the chance to develop and ruin your day, again.

Above all else: DO NOT TRY AND CAST NORMALLY!

First cast at half distance; Nice. 

Again; OK.

Third cast, at 3/4 distance; fffthppp! Argh, that sound again as the "wind knot"/tangle forms just above the spool before traveling through the first guide and rips through all of them to the tip. 

If I am lucky a loop will catch on one of the guides towards the tip of the rod and I won't have to deal with a giant tangle, just a couple of knots and my lure will merely slam into the water some small distance in front of me. This rarely happens though. If it is business as usual, my line will pass through all of the guides and go about 1/2-3/4 of my intended distance, due to all of the friction of that twisted bundle of braid forcing its way up the rod and through the guides. I will most likely loose whatever lure I am throwing, if it doesn't float, as the 2 X treble hooks or whatnot dig into whatever structure lies beneath the surface while I sit on the bank trying to undo 3 yards of line worth of tangle.


You bastard! (This is actually not as bad as they can get because it is right about where my &#8220;I gotta fix this f&#8217;in mess ASAP &#8216;cause it&#8217;s gonna take forever&#8221; vs. take a picture of this for future reference ratio, exists.









Close-up









WHY!? 

It worked before with the sinkers. I didn't do anything different. Same weight as I had used in the middle of the 'successful' range, same changes to my casting and same obsessive-compulsive fidgeting with the lay of the line and all of the small details that had nearly, led me to, somewhat, tangle-less-ish casting.. WHY dammit?

Oh. Mass, duh. 

The sinkers were tiny, round and dense. The weightless Senkos, Rattletraps, Poppers, Tubes, Spooks, Jigs plus plastic grubs and all my other lures are larger, oddly shaped and not so dense. They weigh the same but don't fly the same. 

After hours of troubleshooting, whatever I had learned about my setup by throwing lead sinkers across a soccer field is now nearly useless. I must divide all distances and force of cast in half for a given lure vs. its equivalently weighted sinker counterpart.

Now, to forestall the naysayers who will claim that I did something wrong, I will tell you that I have no slippage off of the spool, the backing and knots associated are rock solid (hell I got 20 yds of 18lb mono backing on a reel which holds 115 yds at 6lb test diameter, therefore the braid is not slipping) and I have not &#8220;wound the line backwards off of the retail spool&#8221; and I have even unwound the entire spool by dropping a 1.5oz weigh in the grass and walking the entire spool out until it hit the arbor knot, and then rewound to the sinker, just in case I made a mistake somewhere.

NOW, let us be clear. I want braided line on my setup. I am not looking for pile on of braid in general or this brand in particular. What I NEED is a solution.

I spent a fair amount of time deciding whether or not to move to braided line and how to best deal with its particular issues. I studied and tested the best knots I could find to overcome the fact that I now had 5 different knots between me and a fish vs. 2 or 3 at most with mono. I have committed to braided line. I drank the kool-aid. 

Now, someone please tell me how to make this damn line not do this!


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## silverbullet

When u spooled it on the reel how was it done? When u cast, how do u close the bail? 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## freshwater_newb

I manually spooled it in my basement, same on as same off.

I only ever manually close the bail and hand guide the line into the roller. NE surfcaster habit with old-school (old as me anyway) penn reels.


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## legendaryyaj

How long is your rod? It might not matter but just out of curiosity.

I didn't read the whole post but it would seem that you are putting way to much thought into it and over thinking it. I don't know why you are having so much trouble with it but it's more than likely user error. I know you might not want to hear that but I use braid with flouro leader as well and have no issues like you. Same test braid on my 2500, 2000, and 1000 series.

I use Power Pro as well as other companies and I can tell you it's not the line. It's all in how you are casting it. Are you casting into the wind? That might be part of it. Also is the braid spooled onto your spool tight? Loose braid will cause tangles as it comes off the spool. Manually closing bail is usually the culprit but since you are manually closing it then I do not know what else it could be.


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## legendaryyaj

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwGSTZ-c4Rc

I spool spinning reels like this and not how Power Pro says to spool it using their box. I use to just throw the spool on the ground and wind away then wonder why I was getting so many tangles. This has since lessened all my issues with line tangle on spinning reels.


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## Big Joshy

I had this problem for awhile and it was not the line but the reel. For some reason the spool was not designed right for braid. Changed the reel, same line no wind knots.
You might also want to try on a different rod. The size of the eyes could be causing too much friction? Dont know. I Feel pretty certain that your not casting wrong or anything like that. Braid on a spinning reel is not that touchy unless your weight is way low or your braid is way heavy.


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## big spurs 111

As with any line you have to pull it after every cast with a spinning reel . reeling against the drag will cause that to . spooling it right does matter with any line, i have used braid for over 20 years and never had something like that happen . over filling your reel will cause that too ....

and i fish from 4 lb to 65 lb braids . 

and trying to cast to hard will cause this too .


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## Mr. A

I was thinking like big spurs, is the spool over filled? Maybe taking 10 or 15 yds off would help. Its there dirt or anything on the top lip of the spool that may be catching the line? Regular or micro eyes on the rod?

I've found that braid can become tempermental when the distance from the end of the spool and the first eye on the rod is shortened up; depending on the type and diameter of the braid.

Not sure that out will matter that much but casting a sinker into a field will put lots of line twist in the braid. With no stretch the braid has to do something with that twist, wind knots are a byproduct of line twist. I know braid should not do this so easily but the fact is that outs going to happen if there is enough line twist.

Lastly, when you fish, do you use any type of swivels?

Mr. A


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## whjr15

I've been using braid for years, and have only had this issue a couple times when I over filled the spool or neglected to use a swivel with line-twist inducing lures. Like Mr. A said, casting sinkers in a field will introduce a ton of line twist.

Also, avoid getting "bunny ears" in your spool. Always make sure, when you close the bail and begin to reel in, that there is no slack in or around the spool. If you notice a bunny ear, chances are great that the next cast will be a big tangled mess.

I know you think you're not doing anything wrong, and it's the fault of the braid itself, and I felt the same way!! But, looking back on it, every time it happened to me it was my fault alone!

My one buddy used to get those "knots" when he used fireline, about every 2 or 3 casts... It was pretty entertaining to watch! lol. His problem was in his casting technique. He wouldn't let the rod take much of the load, and instead of letting the centrifugal force load the rod, he would shock load it. He also whipped a lot of lures right off!!  His casting style worked just fine for him in his mono days, because of the inherent stretch that it has.

If you're able to take a video of this happening, I'm sure we'd be able to figure this out a bit easier.


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## Eriesteamer

Good your pictures are sharp and I see the lines full twist and bet that is your main problem. You need do this go to a bridge and lower your line and hope it takes the twist out it. and lot say about over fill and the way you put it on are other points that are going to be with this tangle thing. and last say is the keep the line taunt while winding in is a must and after you cast pull a bit off reel and keep line taunt while you reel the slack out the line. Is what will help I hope you can make out what I say to do. After lines been on reel a long time will help the spooling as it will reform the shape up to the feed out better but that is just a hope thing. To the bridge thing use a heavy sinker will help the line to spin the twist out line. Happy line to you.


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## sherman51

a lot of the guys have it right. your reel may be alittle to full. another thing that happens when you start to reel in your slack you get a small loop of line on your reel. then when you cast your top line catches that loop and pulls it off the reel from the bottom. the best cure for this is to pull your rod away from your lure just as you start reeling and then reel up your slack.

I don't think line twist is your problem with braid. I have used it twisted so bad you could see the twists in the line. but if I gave that little tug on my rod just as I started to reel I wouldn't get that little loop on my reel and didn't get any birds nests. and over filling your reel just makes it that much worse.
sherman


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## streamstalker

Try it on a different reel. I have always just held the power pro box between my feet and wound up just like the diagram on the box says. I have put PowerPro on way more than a dozen reels, spinning and casting, and have never had a problem. If you try it on a different, reel and if you still get the problem, then it must be you.


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## Daveo76

sherman51 said:


> a lot of the guys have it right. your reel may be alittle to full. another thing that happens when you start to reel in your slack you get a small loop of line on your reel. then when you cast your top line catches that loop and pulls it off the reel from the bottom. the best cure for this is to pull your rod away from your lure just as you start reeling and then reel up your slack.
> 
> I don't think line twist is your problem with braid. I have used it twisted so bad you could see the twists in the line. but if I gave that little tug on my rod just as I started to reel I wouldn't get that little loop on my reel and didn't get any birds nests. and over filling your reel just makes it that much worse.
> sherman


Exactly Sherman. I finally put braid on a spinning reel for Ohio River Wipers last year and my problem was starting to reel as soon as it hit the water while the rod was still horizontal. I conditioned myself to watch every cast and make sure the line was taut before even reeling one turn of the handle and to raise the rod tip.


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## acklac7

As I said in the other thread, check your bail/bailspring for play, a loose bail will cause all sorts of nightmarish issues with braid. Trying another reel is a great idea to.

When it comes to casting distance you cannot beat 8lb power pro, it will cast a country mile. Honestly the max I will use is 10lb, anything above starts to give me fits/decrease my casting distance. Also use 10lb SEGUAR floro, the Berkley stuff is complete junk. Yes it's like $20 a spool, but it is the best leader you can buy, period. Using 8lb power pro combined with 10lb Seguar I can cast downright absurd distances...


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## FishDoctor

I'm not an expert and I know you've put lots of time to this, but like others have mentioned it sounds like overfill to me. That's really the only time I've ever had problems with braid wind knots on spinning reels. 

I know there is a lot of calculations you can do for how much mono backing, but I've always gone with "the less the better". 20 yards of 18 lb mono on a reel that only holds 115 yrds of 6 lb test!?! yikes! That sounds like you're putting yourself in an easy situation for overfill. I'd suggest using smaller mono and only single layer around the spool. Make sure when you spool your braid to do it tightly. 

Swivels are good for reducing line twist like others have said. I've never really had a problem with line twist with braid on my spinning reels, but that is something else to consider.


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## MassillonBuckeye

I like spiderwire. Never had any issues. Its knotting up as it's coming off the spool? What the ??! Has to be all twisted up. If you have a boat, take the lure off and let all the line out while moving then reel it back up. I wasn't aware braid could twist like that though. I've never had a single issue with twist and spiderwire. 8lb spiderwire and I cast a country mile. Smooth as silk. I think powerpro is junk


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## Shad Rap

My guess would be you have too much line on the spool.


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## fallen513

Aside from overfilling your spool, the spool diameter-first guide ratio is off. 

If the spool diameter is too large or the first guide is too small, however you want to look at it... you'll have the same problem. More line than can go through the guide comes off the spool during a cast, flaring... and is then pulled through the first guide, spinning it. 

1st take 20-30 yards of line off the reel, if that doesn't fix it...and all other techniques are proper you need to look at your rod/reel combination. 

References: Surfcasting 3-4 oz plugs 100 yards using various setups, including Lamiglas, St. Croix & Loomis rods with Shimano Stellas & Stradics. 40-60 lb. Jerry Brown braid. 

The only real variable aside from spool geometry/capacity is 1st guide to spool diameter (and distance between them)


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## freshwater_newb

Thanks for all the input regarding my issues with braid. You've given me a lot to consider and I will continue troubleshooting with the advice offered.

I'll try to give brief answers here to some of the questions asked here ITT and via PM.

I am open to considering that it may be user error, we'll soon find out I guess. It is possible that I cast terribly, at least in regards to braided line, and that the all forgiving mono has been covering up my crimes against fishing and my crappy technique these past many years.  

But seriously, it may very well be my fault.

1) The length of the rod is 6'6". 

2) Out at the soccer field I was chucking teardrop sinkers with built in swivels so I don't think I put in much line twist doing that. I was already having issues with the tangles prior to testing in field, which is why I was doing that in the first place.

3) The guides on the rod might be micro guides. They do seem so to me but then again all freshwater gear seems tiny compared to what I am used to fishing in the ocean. The smallest guide at the tip has a 3/16" opening if that's any help.

4) Yes, I do have a lot of backing. Guilty as charged. Reel capacity is 110yds at 6lb test, I bought 150 yards of braid, wanted to only use half for this pole and have half as a spare, so 75yds on the reel and needed to fill up some space with backing.

5) It is possible I may have overfilled the spool. It looks ok, but taking it down another 1/32 of an inch couldn't hurt. Doing that tonight,

6) Rod an reel are only 2 1/2 weeks old. Aren't dirty or mucked up and everything mechanical seems tight and as it should be, including the bail and its components.

7) I've read that some reels are not suited for braided line as they wind it sub-optimally for the way that braid lies on the spool. I have not found anything specifically addressing this one way or the other regarding the president series of pflueger reels.

8) I've been vigilant in policing for those loops and "bunny ears" formed by reeling slack line on the spool before during and after every cast. That is definitely something that has been shown to cause this sort of knot/tangle.

9) The spool diameter to guide ratio is interesting and is discussed in one of those links I posted and is something I've considered.

So it seems I've got some further sleuthing to do about this issue. I'm going fishing tomorrow and will see how everything functions with less line on the reel. If I continue to have tangles I may try to drop down a diameter to 4lb equivalent braided line and see how that goes.

I'm not ready to give up yet and will keep this thread updated with my progress.

So if you happen to see some sad-sack sitting on a bank somewhere around Columbus trying to un-knot a giant mess of bright yellow fishing line, just point and laugh, I'll understand.


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## Mr. A

I don't think the reel is one "not suited for braid." They are good reels and many people here run braid on them.

one last ditch effert here, can you post a few pics of the spool andof the rod and reel? That would probably be enough for us to trouble shoot even more for you!

Mr. A


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## freshwater_newb

Mr. A said:


> I don't think the reel is one "not suited for braid." They are good reels and many people here run braid on them.
> 
> one last ditch effert here, can you post a few pics of the spool andof the rod and reel? That would probably be enough for us to trouble shoot even more for you!
> 
> Mr. A


If I suffer the same failures when I fish tomorrow, I promise to take many pictures of my fate and bitch about it here. 

I will also include the images you requested, presented in a clinical manner and without snark. Thank you for your continued interest in my plight.


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## backlashed

streamstalker said:


> I have always just held the power pro box between my feet and wound up just like the diagram on the box says. I have put PowerPro on way more than a dozen reels, spinning and casting, and have never had a problem. QUOTE]
> 
> Lots of good advise on this thread. Try some of the suggestions and see what it does for you. I use the identical braid you do.
> 
> I've been using braid for two years now, use it on my fresh and saltwater gear, 20# up to 50# on 3 different types of bait casters and 3 different types of spinning reels. Some of the reels are new high end stuff (Stradic and Saltist) and some of them are '70s vintage (Abu Garcia Record and Garcia Mitchell 307's). I'd never go back to mono.
> 
> I spool it just like Streamstalker.


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## backlashed

MassillonBuckeye said:


> I like spiderwire. Never had any issues. Its knotting up as it's coming off the spool? What the ??! Has to be all twisted up. If you have a boat, take the lure off and let all the line out while moving then reel it back up. I wasn't aware braid could twist like that though. I've never had a single issue with twist and spiderwire. 8lb spiderwire and I cast a country mile. Smooth as silk. I think powerpro is junk


LOL, Spiderwire was my first brad and I ditched it 'cause I thought it was junk.


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## spectrum

Just read your first post again and I think I got it. It looks like you are using a ultra-light rod and basically casting weightless senkos. With that set up the braid does not get wound back up nice and tight as it would if say you were using a crank. First cast might be fine but then as you reel in there is no pressure to keep the line tight. If I was you fishing light tackle in my opinion is not for braid, I usually only use braid on lake erie or fishing pads and timber and that's with heavier lures. Also I never use backing with braid, since the stuff lasts so long your not saving any $ by saving 20 yds of line.


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## spectrum

Basic jist, if braid is not wound on the reel tight everytime you will get this everytime.


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## JohnPD

For the type of stuff you're throwing, may I suggest trying Nanofil. I don't think you will regret it.


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## whjr15

I, too, just re-read the entire post again (as I admit, 90% of it was skimmed on the first go!) And I read this:



freshwater_newb said:


> I suspect this is because of not being able to 'pre-load' the rod for power casts. My definition of pre-loading being a *whipping type movement* on the end of the backswing which flexes the rod tip and adds, well an additional 5-7 yards of distance it seems. This braided line, and power casts with a pre-load has a 100% incidence of "wind knot"/ tangle...


And this: 


> Above all else: DO NOT TRY AND CAST NORMALLY!


That was the exact same casting style my buddy, who had a *huge* problem with anything but mono, had. 

*My new theory:* (detailed)

At the moment of your "whipping" motion, you're shock loading both the rod and, more importantly in this case, your line. "Shock" being the key word. (very sudden and drastic increase in load tension.) 

Since there's no stretch in braid, *all* of it's tension gets transferred into the rod. There's also no way you can maintain that same extent of loading, by definition, throughout the forward cast. So the rod tip then prematurely unloads a bit, and is now moving slower than it was just a split second ago. At the moment you _think_ you're beginning your forward cast, your rod tip had already been in that motion since the instant after you "whipped" it. Your rod tip now struggles to equal itself out, causing a very inconsistent forward cast motion. In turn, the lure is not moving at the same speed, or even the same direction for that matter, as your rod tip at any given moment. When that happens, you get what? *SLACK LINE!!*

*My new theory* (short version) 
It's your casting technique, dude! That "whipping" motion is killin' you!  If you've ever fly fished, or used a baitcaster, you'll understand what I'm sayin'!


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## big spurs 111

after reading your last post i see where you may have the bad guy down ..

Gear List:
Rod- Cabela's tourney trails, IM7 rod, ML,1/8-1/2oz lure weight, 4-10lb test line, MF action.
Reel- Pflueger President spinning reel 6730, 4-8lb test line

Backing- 20yds Trilene 18lb test mono!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%

Main Line- 70 yds, PowerPro 20lb test/6lb diameter hi-vis yellow
Leader- Berkley Vanish 15lb test Fluoro leader, 1.5-6ft depending on application




that 18 lbs test is way to much for the reel,drop down to 6 lb test and only put 2 feet on . and after reading the stats on the reel you have way to much line on it .


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## Deazl666

Any line with memory, even a little, when overspooled, can be a big problem. I'm intrigued by this manual closing of the bail thing. I bet this results in loose line on your spool, which will cause line tangle when casting. In addition, check for bunny ears every few casts. (Also, every so often make a cast and hold the line against the rod with your rod hand as you reel in to tighten up your spool.) If all else fails, take your gear into a good tackle place and ask them for help. I'm sure they can straighten you at in a jiffy...

By the way, I don't mess with backing or a leader on my 4 to 10 pound braid because of the high premium I place on simplicity...

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## MassillonBuckeye

backlashed said:


> LOL, Spiderwire was my first brad and I ditched it 'cause I thought it was junk.


Yeah, I should have added could have just been my experience with it. I only used it on one setup last year and had a bad day with it lol. I know most people have a good opinion of it. I had a couple "cut offs" on a snag, maybe even same snag but the damn line just went PLINK and there goes a reef runner. Second time the RR floated to the surface and I was able to get it back. Pretty sure I backlashed or something earlier that day as well and winged a lure into the trees. Snapped off. So yeah, thats where my opinion came from heh 

I'm with Fallen on OPs issue. First thing I thought was that's some heavy line. Combined with micro guides(spinning rod?), it wouldn't surprise me a bit that's what the issue is. I'm usually using 2lb diameter and it's stronnnnnng. Usually only casting 1/16-1/2 oz though. If I was flipping or casting heavy stuff I'd probably try 20-40. I'm pretty sure you can tow a car with 80lb.


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## Mr. A

Deazl666 said:


> Any line with memory, even a little, when overspooled, can be a big problem. I'm intrigued by this manual closing of the bail thing. I bet this results in loose line on your spool, which will cause line tangle when casting.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Ohub Campfire mobile app



Dealz, a lot of people do this to keep bunny ears and loose wraps out of their spools.

Many bails have to travel a bit before they hit the spot that closes the bail, that short distance the bail travels can cause a lot of havoc with line unless there is some degree of tension on the line. So you almost have to cast and start the retrieve before the bait lands (think buzzbait) because the landing causes slack on the line and essentially the spool.

The reels that close immediately, as well as those that do not, slam a line that was just comming off the reel into a 90 deg angle. That shock can make the first couple wraps, that didn't come off during the cast, loosen and become bunny ears or wind knots.

I personally had to do this with braid when I first started using it because I noticed those first couple wraps loosening and I was getting tangles. Same when I first started using fluero too. Now its just a habit, so I do it all the time no matter what I'm using. I also have a tendency to use my reeling hand as a break and to stop the bait of I cast too far, then its in position to close the bail, give a slight pull on the line (as the bait sinks) and I'm ready to rock and roll!

Sorry, that got way to detailed!

Mr. A


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## BrookdaleBrothersOutdoors

It could be alot of different things and the guys have given you some great information! One thing I love about OGF is the help and knowledge of the many anglers who frequent site... anyways I noticed that my power pro would knot up within the first 5 casts of the beginning of each fishing trip and I believe it was because as the line dried out after use, it had gaps in the now "dehydrated" line that caused bad knots when I would first cast it. Not sure when the knots are occurring but if others have had this problem then just hand draw like 200 yards of line before casting each trip and then re-reel it to have a knot free cast.


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## drew7997

200 yards? Seems alot for a simple reel. 

From Drew on my Droid X

LMB: 18 largest-13"
Gills: 
Crappie: 6 largest 9"
Other: 1


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## Bassbme

Deazl666 said:


> I'm intrigued by this manual closing of the bail thing. I bet this results in loose line on your spool, which will cause line tangle when casting. In addition, check for bunny ears every few casts.


Closing the bail by turning the handle adds line twist because the line is traveling across the bail wire as the rotor is spinning. Closing the bail by hand is a fairly well known way of reducing line twist. It also puts your hand in position to (as others have been mentioning) give the line that little tug to tighten up those "little bunny ears" on the spool. It has another benefit at well. You can feather the line with your hand during the cast. It makes it easier to control the length of your cast as well as the lures entry into the water. 

As far as the OP's posts ...... I'm totally lost when it comes to your description of your casting technique. Power loading the rod? It sounds like you're trying to load the rod as if it were a fly rod? I'm willing to bet that you can cast just as far with a normal casting motion, as you can with your power loading of the rod technique. 

If the OP wants my opinion, it sounds like a line spooling problem coupled with a lure that may be spinning in the air, and spinning in the water upon retrieve. I can't see how a rod or a casting motion can add twist to a line. I'd suggest going out to the field you cast in...... cut everything off the end of your line and let it come off the spool as you walk the field. Let off all the line down to your backing. Close the bail (by hand) Pinch the line between the reel and the stripper guide and reel all the line back in. Keep your fingers pinched on the line so it's pushing the twist towards the rod tip. You may have to repeat the process as many as 3 times, but you will eventually get all of the twist out of your line. 

Even if you use ball bearing swivels and lures that never spin, you're still going to get line twist with a spinning reel. It's a product of design.....the nature of the beast ..... 

One other thing you may want to check. The bail roller. If the bail roller isn't spinning it's going to put a lot of twist into your line.


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## acklac7

Bassbme said:


> As far as the OP's posts ...... I'm totally lost when it comes to your description of your casting technique. Power loading the rod? It sounds like you're trying to load the rod as if it were a fly rod? I'm willing to bet that you can cast just as far with a normal casting motion, as you can with your power loading of the rod technique.


I call it "sing-shotting"; essentially the stretch of the Mono/Floro allows for some preload right before the rod is swung forward, as you complete your cast that preload "unloads" and your lure goes flying into deep space. Again, 8lb power pro with Seguar 10lb floro is the best setup for this type of casting technique...


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## Bassbme

acklac7 said:


> I call it "sing-shotting"; essentially the stretch of the Mono/Floro allows for some preload right before the rod is swung forward, as you complete your cast that preload "unloads" and your lure goes flying into deep space. Again, 8lb power pro with Seguar 10lb floro is the best setup for this type of casting technique...


Huh? Preloading the rod? Any time a fishing rod isn't straight, it is under a load. Conversely .... any time a fishing rod is straight, it isn't under a load. When a rods direction of motion changes, as it does in a standard cast, it comes to a point at which the rod is going to be straight, and therefore no longer under a load. I don't care how fast you change the rod's direction. It's still going to reach a point of having no load. So this idea that the rod stays constantly loaded is incorrect.

As far as gaining casting energy through line stretch ....Lets say (just for fun) that the particular mono we're using stretches 20%. Let's also say that you have (again, just for fun) 6" of line between your rod tip and your lure. That 6" of line has the potential to stretch 1.4 inches. It's not going to stretch that much, but even if it did .... there's not a whole lot of energy stored in that 1.4" of stretched line .... would you agree?

I know what you're thinking ...... you're thinking your rod is 6'6" long and the line is going to stretch the full length of the rod, and not just between the rod tip and your lure. It's not going to, but (just for fun) let's look at the numbers and see what we come up with. 

An average 6'6" spinning rod has a measurement of 11" from the butt to the center of the reel seat. Add to that (depending on reel size) roughly 2" distance from the center of reel's foot to the bail roller and you have a total of 13" to subtract from the total rod length of 78". This leaves you with 65 more inches of potential line stretch that can be used to "pre load" the rod. But does the line stretch the entire length of the rod from tip to bail roller? I think not. Let's do some more numbers and see if it does.

We've established that the particular mono we're using stretches 20%. 20% of 65" (the distance from bail roller to rod tip) is 13" Does the distance between our lure, and our rod tip increase 13" during a cast? No. That because the angle of the line between the rod tip and the lure, as well as rod flex or loading the rod, pretty much cancel out the forces that would significantly stretch the line, between the rod tip and bail roller. 

If you think my post is ridiculous ..... you're right. But it is based on actual facts, and not some perceived notion that significant casting distance, or even miniscule casting distance is gained through line stretch. 

All things being equal, rod tip speed is where casting distance comes from. Not from some none existent energy gain resulting from line stretch.


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## MassillonBuckeye

montagc said:


> Simplify. Preload is just another term for energy stored in the rod from the backward direction of the first part of the cast. The practice of loading the rod also ensures that lure is more or less in line with direction of the cast, rather than hanging down. This allows for more energy in the cast and more accuracy.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


How can you cast without "preloading" the rod? Open the bail and let it drop? heh  Not poking fun at you, just the idea.


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## MassillonBuckeye

> I think, perhaps you in particular as well as possibly other board members may be interested in I what I feel is the most common and important casting fault for experienced casters. It relates directly to your remark about the difference between BC and FC in terms of generating bad loops. I mentioned this on the other board but strangely it didn't raise any comments -- seems to have flown under the radar. It is a description of the same situation that Gordy mentioned but provides detail in understanding it and correcting it. It stems from a structural effect that fly rods demonstrate and was described to me by a past colleague (Al Harral). He told me to hold a fly rod with tip near a ceiling and to snap the rod down (but carefully) to see the tip move in the opposite direction and touch the ceiling (if you haven't done this yourself you should). Of course today we have a name for this and it is a favorite casting move of Gordy's - the Snap-T. Well the Snap-T effect is a primary casting fault for many experienced casters -- most experienced casters with casting faults are probably running into inadvertent//unwanted Snap-Ts. This is the condition we also might call "overpowering the rod". Basically it is a casting fault to try and exert a large torque if the rod is not suitably preloaded because the tip, worst case, will actually move backward as the rod loads, throw slack into the system, and bang the line when it unloads or the rod tip begins actually moving forward and make it physically impossible to maintain the rod loading. The rod almost immediately unloads, sends a flaky wave down the line (can be a tailing loop) and then the casters continues on with the cast with all kinds of various results. As Gordy indicated this isn't common with the backcast motion because its not as natural thing to do as it is during the FC. What you do to solve it is have a planned casting phase before the "cast". This is the preload phase -- move the hand rather deliberately timing the motion to have significant preload when arriving at the casting location. With enough preload it seems that the Snap-T effect is eliminated -- experiment with how much preload you need. To give you an idea of preload, one of the high speed images in a earlier E-mail clearly shows the end of the preloading phase and the rod preloaded. Walter let me know if my WAG about Snap-T is valid for you.


Taken from another forum.

Re: High Speed Data for Straight Rod Tip Trajectory Cast
http://www.wildoutfitting.com/mci/emailarchive/mlistarchive/msg00861.html


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## ducman491

Um I just cast. Heavier stuff goes farther than lighter stuff. If I try to cast too hard my baitcaster gets angry. So I try not to do that.


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## freshwater_newb

re: @Bassbme
re: @acklac7
re: @whjr15
_Quote:
Originally Posted by MassillonBuckeye View Post
How can you cast without "preloading" the rod? Open the bail and let it drop? heh Not poking fun at you, just the idea.



montagc said:



Ever see a kid cast? They typically hold the rod behind them for a few seconds, then wing it forward with all they have. No PRE load in that situation. The rod is not loaded PRE forward movement.]

Click to expand...

_


montagc said:


> and any others I may have missed who are discussing this confusing, I admit, aspect of my post.
> 
> Hopefully I put pre-load in quotes in the original part of my post. (whew. just checked, I did)
> 
> I didn't know how to explain that motion I do when I'm really trying to hum a lure or bait for the maximum distance. I just sort of threw the concept out there without actually explaining what motions I do when trying to huck something as far as is possible.
> 
> Shortest way to try and explain it I can come up with, is that it is a very fast backward motion, snapped forward, just short of full backward extension (like snapping a wet towel when you get that supersonic crack, but backwards over your shoulder). At the point of the forward snapping motion, the rod is, hopefully, at its maximum flex, but in the wrong direction.
> 
> As my wrist and shoulder (yes, elbow too, was lit when wrote this), the arm bones are merely a linkage between these pivots (joints), are snapping forward and the pre-loaded, or should i now confuse matters by saying 'back-loaded' rod tip is unloading its force forward, I release the line from my index finger, hopefully timing-wise, at the apogee of the release of energy from the back-loaded rod tip.
> 
> The rest continues like a normal cast as far as I can tell. The casted item goes much further using this method.
> 
> I don't know if this is bad form or casting technique or if I even described it properly. I'm not sure of all of the forces involved in this or exactly how it works. Words are failing me.
> 
> I just know that it works with mono and I can go from dropping bombs in your front yard to knocking over your bbq in the back when I do this.
> 
> an additional thought: it's kinda like snapping a towel (as I mentioned) but it's also like skipping a rock, but the ones when trying to get infinity tiny little skips as the stone just barely ticks the surface of the water and goes on forever and you win 'cause no one can possibly count how many skips you got.
> 
> yeah, like that.


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## freshwater_newb

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Taken from another forum.
> 
> Re: High Speed Data for Straight Rod Tip Trajectory Cast
> http://www.wildoutfitting.com/mci/emailarchive/mlistarchive/msg00861.html


OMG! just read this. sorry, working through the comments since I've been away. 

This is what I do, I think, the good part at the end anyway. This is me "pre-loading" the rod.

I tried to describe it, poorly, in my post above. It took me a lot more words though.


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## Bassbme

Freshwater newb ...... I understand what you're trying to say, and what your perception might be, but you aren't gaining any casting energy from line stretch. You can cast mono further because you are used to its' casting characteristics. It's also more slick than braid. Line friction robs casting distance. Rod geometry plays a huge roll in casting performance. The placement of the rod guides may not be set up for a line with the characteristics of braid. The guides may not be the proper size, or there may not be enough of them. 

As far as your casting technique. I'm not going to try and change your mind. We all have our way of doing things. I will make a suggestion though. In your attempt to describe your casting motion you mentioned wrist and shoulder. No mention of your elbow. For me..... I cast from my elbow to the wrist. Even if I am trying to fire the furthest cast I can, there isn't much movement in my shoulder at all. The only time my upper arm moves a large amount at all, is if I am lob casting a Carolina rig. And the only reason I do that is because of the long leader. Other than that, my upper arm stays pretty tight to my body. Anyhow, that's about it. I hope you figure out what's causing you those wind knots. I'll say it again...... if I were you I would get all of the twist out of my line as I described in my first post, then see if you have the same casting problems. If you find you're getting a lot of line twist back fairly quickly, check your bail roller. If it's not turning freely, it's going to put twist in your line. Good luck....


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## freshwater_newb

*EDIT: *I was going to write a thing about my progress with tangle-gate but as I was reviewing all of your helpful posts and trying to answer some while sipping a couple moscow mules and enjoying the evening after a 6 hour day of wade-fishing, it turns out I managed to get hammered. Below is what I was able to cobble together form my notes.

Here are some pics of my reel after I chopped out a whole bunch of the braid, then chopped more, and then more since it still kept tangling. At the point in the pics below, this evening, I didn't get any more tangles for my creek wading today. 

Pics look weird since the line doesn't look like it's spooled right and the line doesn't look tight, but it is very tight on the spool. Also, while looking at the hi-rez pics, I noticed a dip just below the top spool lip and above the bottom spool lip. This tells me that the spool is not being evenly wound (which was the topic of one of the posted links in my OP) because whatever mechanism raising and lowing the spool has poor tolerances or something.

What I learned is that braided line is bitchy: Apparently braided line requires tight mechanical tolerances and proper behaviour or it starts acting out.

PICS OF MY SPOOL after the incident with the knife.



















So, yeah, that's a lot of line missing. Offshoot of this is that the line is now so low on the spool that it's causing friction against the lip of the spool and comes off slowly resulting in decreased distances even without "pre-loading".

it worked fine today in a creek and didn't tangle, but I was only really just chucking stuff across to the other bank and other very light duty tasks. 

last night though i was at a pond, bank fishing and couldn't get off the shallow flats into deeper water where the meat was. a place where i was previously and easily hitting the same depths with mono.

i did like the bulletproof effects of the braid though. 

in the creek I was pulling up stumps with a gloved hand and recovering my lures fairly easily. sawing through reeds and stuff made pitching soft plastics into vegetation a breeze, get caught up, get out the glove, two wraps and tug, maybe need to get the pliers and re-turn the hook but got the gear back.

did notice a failure of coating on the powerpro braid though. don't know if it was the hi-viz stuff or the coating it has to prevent burrowing into itself but that stuff was coming off everywhere. a waxy smudgy stuff, got all over my fingers when tightening the reel for the above pic. seems to be why the line is whitening.


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## dax

I've had this issue my self and went happily back to trilene xl I use a 1 piece 6'6" Mitchell spinning combo and honestly it's says it's a med. rod but has a lot of tip action I began to believe my casting tequnique added to tip wiggle slowing the line thru the guides and the unspooling of the line was faster!using less line helped, putting on several high quality stainless snap swivel and tossing my heaviest top water lure into a straight river with no snags and let it unspool in your case into the backing and wind it up fast and smooth many times untill I could drop the lure down to the water and see no twist.it helped a lot but still I did a reality check I use 6-8# trilene and I beat the snot out of it i found that it holds at about 20-30lbs. And knots break and hooks straighten before it breaks unless the line is nicked or frayed even then it does well.for casting for bass and other fish without mean teeth it does great as for the braid I invested in its still my backing in that set of reel/rod combo so I'm curious about the ratio/geometry between eyelet and spool.oh and that braid I was using was running good when I quit it my final isse was nearly slicing my finger flesh off when I was snagged while fishing a river on my boat the current kept pushing and the line got around my hand so moral was mono was good enough for that purpose.now I'm going back to it for lake trolling for toothier big game fish and divers and I feel confident that trolling that stuff (#30 fireline orig)will be overkill and in that situation that's ok if I were to cast it on that setup is yet to be determined its a 7 1/2 med.action spinning combo and if I cast it the lure weight will be very heavy.I'm curious to find out how you do! Best to ya!


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## dax

Oh. I also polished the lip of my spools to a clean smooth mirror aluminum finish removing the andonizing and increasing the lip radius.i noticed wear from the braid that motivated it it improved casting distance with mono for certain can't remember if that was the fix for the braid I was using does the rod have ceramic eyelets if not the braid may cut in a groove that will also cause the line to spool twist into the line.found that out the hard way with a gander mntn.guide series rod on my previous setup those rods went back to the store after I saw that!


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## dax

Check you eyelets for grooves and yes there is a simple cast metal pin guide that pushes the spool up and down min broke out and Mitchell replaced it free I assume flueger would be the same since I think the Abu Garcia co. Ate them or the other way around . It can wear causing uneven spooling do you notice any slop as the spool travels up and down when winding?mine broke out so the spool just flopped up and down when I lifted up and down on the spool .... Get it?


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## freshwater_newb

ducman491 said:


> Um I just cast. Heavier stuff goes farther than lighter stuff. If I try to cast too hard my baitcaster gets angry. So I try not to do that.


ur rit. i did that. didna' work


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## freshwater_newb

@dax
thanks. i'll take that under consideration


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## dax

Watch this too he's a little windy but a pro no less.


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## spectrum

From the pics it looks like the fill on the spool is right were it needs to be now. I did the same thing when I first ran braid, over filled the spool and had nots all the time. I agree with John thou, if your looking for distance try out nanofil. I'm not to sure of the abrastion resistance, but my buddy used it on the boat and he could cast 50% further then me using mono.


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## ducman491

freshwater_newb said:


> ur rit. i did that. didna' work


I only meant that some of these guys put so much thought into casting. I had a similar problem with 50lb braid on my spinning gear but after I had to cut out some terrible tangles I was fine. Over spooled a bit. That was Power Pro too I have since switched to 10lb Power Pro Super Slick on the spinning reel and the 50lb is on the baitcaster. Haven't had a problem yet. Hope you get it sorted, I really like Power Pro.


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## FishDoctor

freshwater_newb said:


> *EDIT: *I was going to write a thing about my progress with tangle-gate but as I was reviewing all of your helpful posts and trying to answer some while sipping a couple moscow mules and enjoying the evening after a 6 hour day of wade-fishing, it turns out I managed to get hammered. Below is what I was able to cobble together form my notes.
> 
> Here are some pics of my reel after I chopped out a whole bunch of the braid, then chopped more, and then more since it still kept tangling. At the point in the pics below, this evening, I didn't get any more tangles for my creek wading today.
> 
> Pics look weird since the line doesn't look like it's spooled right and the line doesn't look tight, but it is very tight on the spool. Also, while looking at the hi-rez pics, I noticed a dip just below the top spool lip and above the bottom spool lip. This tells me that the spool is not being evenly wound (which was the topic of one of the posted links in my OP) because whatever mechanism raising and lowing the spool has poor tolerances or something.
> 
> What I learned is that braided line is bitchy: Apparently braided line requires tight mechanical tolerances and proper behaviour or it starts acting out.
> 
> PICS OF MY SPOOL after the incident with the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, yeah, that's a lot of line missing. Offshoot of this is that the line is now so low on the spool that it's causing friction against the lip of the spool and comes off slowly resulting in decreased distances even without "pre-loading".
> 
> it worked fine today in a creek and didn't tangle, but I was only really just chucking stuff across to the other bank and other very light duty tasks.
> 
> last night though i was at a pond, bank fishing and couldn't get off the shallow flats into deeper water where the meat was. a place where i was previously and easily hitting the same depths with mono.
> 
> i did like the bulletproof effects of the braid though.
> 
> in the creek I was pulling up stumps with a gloved hand and recovering my lures fairly easily. sawing through reeds and stuff made pitching soft plastics into vegetation a breeze, get caught up, get out the glove, two wraps and tug, maybe need to get the pliers and re-turn the hook but got the gear back.
> 
> did notice a failure of coating on the powerpro braid though. don't know if it was the hi-viz stuff or the coating it has to prevent burrowing into itself but that stuff was coming off everywhere. a waxy smudgy stuff, got all over my fingers when tightening the reel for the above pic. seems to be why the line is whitening.


I agree with some of the others. After seeing the pictures, I'm thinking more and more it was a fill problem. You said those pictures are after you cut off a bunch of line--though your fill looks good to me now, which leads me to believe there was too much line on there before your incident with the knife.

Like someone else mentioned and I said in my first post. Dump the 18lb mono backing. Put a couple feet of something lighter on, some 6 or 8lb mono. Only a couple feet. Then spool your braid so that it looks like you have it now. 

Overfilling with braid is really unforgiving. When I used to use mono I think I overfilled then, but just never got the problems I had when overfilling with braid. Once I went to braid though I learned real quick not to overfill.


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## fallen513

So is your mind changed yet?

Braid casts farther than mono. It has less stretch for more sensitivity, "faster" hooksets & increased resistance to abrasion. It has little to no memory.

One issue you will run into with big fish is the line digging into the loose wraps. As stated previously you have to ensure that the line being wound is tight. Hold the rod tip under water during retrieve if you have to (the lure is not offering enough resistance). When a big fish is pulling drag, and the spool is not wound correctly, the line will "cut" into the loose wraps, eventually causing a loop to loop knot and the line will break, or your rod, depending on the fish and your setup. The same scenario will occur on an outbound cast with loose wraps. They come off the spool prematurely & entangle the outbound line. 

A 6' 6" rod is not a distance rod.

Food for thought.


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## Iowa Dave

I have not read all the replies to this thread and what I'm about to say may or may not have been addressed. 

When you spool any reel, especially a spinning reel with braid you should never let it coil off the filling spool and then reel it straight to the reel. This creates the problem you are experiencing. The line should come off the filler spool by unrolling, what I do is put a pencil or pen in the center of the spool and let it roll off thru the guides and reeling it on the reel spool this way. This stops much of what you are experiencing. 

Next is not to overfill the reel spool. This is just as important with braid as unrolling off of the filler spool. 

After all of that every once in a while you can let all of your line off of the reel with no weight and drag it behind the boat to unravel the line. This becomes more important if you do any trolling with a spinning reel/rod combo. 

On a side note mono is much more forgiving and you have less problems than you will with braid if the above isn't followed. 

Good luck and again I have not read the replies of the thread.


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## Iowa Dave

That may be but I've never had any issues with any line on a spinning reel doing it this way. Even Fluorocarbon.


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## cmiller

Mr. A said:


> I don't think the reel is one "not suited for braid." They are good reels and many people here run braid on them.
> Mr. A


I have a baitcaster that has 30/8 on it. I use it for 2 purposes.

1st: trolling I drop lures in water and let movement take line off. 
- If I cast, I always get backlashes no matter what.

2nd? Flying a kite with kids out on lake.


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## Bassbme

Iowa Dave said:


> That may be but I've never had any issues with any line on a spinning reel doing it this way. Even Fluorocarbon.


I gotta agree with Iowa Dave here. I put the line on my spinning reels the way he described. In fact, the little owners manual that came with my Shimano Saros spinning reel tells you to do it that way. I also have a few Shimano Symetres and I put the line on them the same way it says to put it on the Saros. I don't have any problems with initial line twist IF the line I am using is from a manufacturer that puts the line on the filler spool smoothly. I get a lot of twist from lines like Berkley that don't use even winding. Maybe it has something to do with the way Berkley fills their spools. I don't know.... I actually don't use Berkley lines anymore. Not for that reason.... really just because I have found better lines from other manufacturers.

Below is a picture from the little owners manual that came with my Saros reel.


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## streamstalker

montagc said:


> I think you have that backwards. On a baitcaster, you use the pencil method, on a spinning reel you let the line coil off the spool. In either case, the line should come off the spool the same way it goes on the reel, so as to eliminate twist.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


The OP was using PowerPro, and that comes in a package that dispenses in that roller method. I have never had any problems with baitcasting or spinning reels with it, and I have been using it about 6-7 years.


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## cmiller

yeah mentioning power pro, i'm currently trying that line.


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## dax

Thanks bassbme,I noticed that and to the point my trilene xl #8 was smashed out of round. I can really tell when the light hits it when it's wet out of the water not seeing major differences in cast distance and twist but I've been using the same brand for a long time and expect the same they dod just improve it somehow and the old stuff is all on clearance now.maybe I'm overdue for a new brand of line. I should start investigating this powerpro a lot seem to be fond of.there's a lot of solid info turning up in this thread.thanks to all you great folks!


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## Bassbme

I have been thinking about this for a while since I've noticed threads in the past talking about putting line on spinning reels. The right way and the wrong way. Most people say that it should come off the filler spool, the same way it goes on the reel. I understand that a spinning reel puts the line on the spool from the side ....... but that doesn't necessarily mean it should come off the side of the filler spool ....... does it? Wouldn't how the manufacturers put it on the spool, make a difference. Wouldn't that be the determining factor in how it should come off the filler spool?


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## dax

I've always spooled my line that way.ive Always given it a stretch with swivels at the river too.ive,only had issues with fire line and some odd brand flouro I can't remember now I'll post it when I check. Tonight I tried casting the #30 with about 1/2oz of weight...got out 50 feet I set the reel up for trolling and that's about all it will do,I'll probably use it for catfishing too. I put new #8 trilene xl on my Mitchell spinning yesterday deliberately overfilling it and laying the spool on the ground label up I trolled it with a swivel and had no problems with twist even on my first cast.i handed the rod over to my wife tonight and it was twisted in six casts.i took over on the setup and didnt have a single twist nest.so I set the line up to fail and only she got the nest.the same exact setup on the other rod she had no issues at all.it has the same everything but that line was replaced about 2 weeks ago used a dozen times.no issues.so it's got to be a combination of over spool plus technique? I'm tired so I will sleep on it.I do like my old trusty but I have to replace it 2-3 times a year letting it get low on the spool as well.


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## Iowa Dave

I use Power Pro 30 on all of my trolling rods, but use Fireline and Trilene XT on my spinning rods. I also have a few Revo's for bass fishing that have Power Pro on some of them. For mono on the bass baitcasters I'm using Spiderwire mono. Like I said I've used Fluorocarbon but didn't like the properties of it. Too stiff for my liking. 

My favorite line of all time used to be the purple/blue Stren, not sure why I've gotten away from it. Anyone know if it's still a good mono line?

The great thing about using Power Pro on my trolling rods is that I can reverse the line to another reel and then get longer use out of it. The biggest problem I've had with Power Pro is line fade. Is it really a problem? Probably not, but I still reverse the line from one reel to another and get twice the use out of it before changing it to new line. 

One thing about Power Pro you will either love it or hate it. With any braid you will find that some prefer one brand over another but in most cases it's personal preference. Most saltwater guy's won't touch Power Pro and use Jerry Brown braid. Maybe there is something to this for fresh or salt applications.


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## grub_man

freshwater_newb,

Unfortunately, the issues are most likely user error, in some combination of fill level, fill technique, closing the bail manually, and keeping the line tight enough on the spool. There is plenty of good advice in the thread.

I also read some comments regarding rod properties, so I'll provide some perspective here.

The properties of braid make it handle more like a string than a garden hose. I'm sure that you know when you coil your garden hose, you need to twist the hose to get it to lay flat. This is how mono and fluoro behave, and why line twist is a big issue with them. Braid behaves more like a string. You can coil it up and until you introduce A LOT of twist, it doesn't begin to behave like monofilament lines in this regard. The lack of memory, low diameter, and suppleness of braid allow it to be controlled easier by a guide train than mono or fluoro.

Since there was mention of the ratio in size between the spool diameter and butt guide diameter, the rule of thumb used by many rod builders is the butt guide should be about 1/2 the OD of the spool lip for a spinning rod. In reality, what is more important is guide height, rather than ring diameter, especially with limp small diameter lines. There are some high frame guides on the market that allow a rod builder to reduce the ring size of the butt guide by a size, or even 2 in some cases.

In addition, limp small diameter lines can be controlled more quickly than larger diameter stiff lines. This is the basis of the new Fuji KR System. The Microwave System designed by Doug Hannon, originally introduced by Castaway, and now being sold by American Tackle, takes this idea to its practical limit, and may be the most versatile reduction system available to rod builders and now production companies.

The bottom line is that some guide trains perform better with some lines than others, but unless extremely implemented extremely poorly will be adequate to handle most fishing applications.

Factory rods never have optimal guide trains. They are built to perform adequately, but because the manufacturer has no idea of what reel or line you will use, there is no way to optimize the guide train. If you take your rod to a good rod builder, s/he will be able to replace and optimize the guide train to your line and reel choice.

I hope all works out well. Braid has its place, and can be a great line choice, but personally I use it more as an application specific line.

Joe


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## freshwater_newb

EDIT: so much to say but it is late and I gotta go to sleep. This will have to be part one. Ill finish it as soon as possible.

Finally! 

What did I decide about using braided line?

Well, its complicated. You have the choice to read this novel from here forward or, you could skip to the end to see what Im gonna use then come back here and try to understand why or, you have the option to just skip to the end and then call me names cause the line I chose to use sucks!.

Game on!

I ended up learning too much about braided line. Probably more than most who sell it understand. Im like that; a bit obsessive when I have a problem to work out.

Ive been away from this thread for a bit while learning stuff. Learning a whole lot more than I will bother to go into here, since its kind of boring and really about my journey into understanding what the F I was reading about and trying to get to the bottom of it all.

Basically, I spent a whole bunch of time learning this stuff and will try to just drop here what is relevant to the discussion at hand.

I have read a gazillion discussions on a multitude of forums full of personal opinions and experiences; I have read pretty much every review on braided lines on the first 100 pages of google under several dozen search parameters and have dissected, no small number of scientific papers on the subject of braided lines.

Once again, thanks to you all for the support and information offered to this thread. OGF has proven itself to be an essential, at least to me, resource for the freshwater angler.

Based on the number of responses and the viewing traffic here it seems that many years after its introduction, there remains much to be said about braided line.

Unfortunately for all concerned, I now have an opinion of my own! 

It may piss some people off, but here it is. 

All of these braided lines are kind of the same for the most part. They all have some marketing strategy to make them seem unique but, ultimately, have only minor tweeks with which to differentiate themselves from their competitors. Special coatings, abrasion resistance, 4, 6, 8, a couple dozen woven threads; its all mostly just the same stuff. 

Heres the secret: As is the case with monofilament line, and this is the biggie, its all about line diameter. Thicker line is stronger than thinner line.

Obvious right?

Now, braid IS stronger than monofilament line given a certain diameter. To use an example I cobbled together below, PowerPro 10lb test line/2lb mono equivalent diameter (according to http://www.powerpro.com/publish/content/global_fish/en/us/power_pro_v2/info/powerpro_superline.html) has a .006/ 0.1524mm diameter. Unfortunately though, being .006 in diameter put this line firmly in the just shy of 3lb diameter camp (if there were such a thing) according to Trilene XL specs @ http://berkley-fishing.com/products/line/monofilament/trilene-xl and in the same space between weights for mono on this chart taken from Stren line specs http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/monofil.htm 

So thats not too bad, right? You can kinda see how its equivalent-ish number-wise, bordering the two weight categories. But look here at the info from www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetestingplastic.htm , someone more obsessed with getting real, accurate reading about these lines than I have been and who actually did the real work. 

Paulus stringent and, frankly, unrelenting testing and fact checking, was the final piece of understanding, for me to see the light. 

While particular special coatings and number of strands DO play a factor in a braided lines strength and behavior over time, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS ACTUAL, MEASURED, LINE DIAMETER!

Lets look at this same example lines, independently tested diameter. Turns out that its actual, averaged diameter is .212mm/.0083, not .152mm/.006 (accomplished by taking its .196mm height and multiplying it by the .229mm width and dividing by two = .212/.0083, making it a 4.33lb test equivalent line, according to the sources linked above, not 2lb test mono equiv..

Do you see how this rounding down and overlapping ranges of mono lb test (see here: http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/monofil.htm ) can start to really affect our decisions when choosing braid? Hell, from what Ive read, probably all but the most educated pros, have too heavy, braided line on their reels for everyday fishing.

Lets look below at the chart I cobbled together from the detailed spreadsheets on braided line (ABS [actual breaking strength], not KBS [knotted breaking strength], BTW: your knots WILL reduce this number significantly, by almost half in most cases.  remind me to talk, another time, about a properly tied Yucatan knot. Not the one they tied incorrectly on knot wars, only to have it, unfairly, lose to the double uni, but the one I use with the well over 100% knot strength for joining different sized and material lines- stats compiled at http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetesting.htm

Heading definitions:
Brand/Color seems obvious. 
Stated test is whats posted on the box your line came in. 
Stated Diameter is also what is listed on the box, here it is in mm. 
Tested lb A & B are the two runs testing Actual Breaking Strength.
Measured diameters are the actual measured diameters of the line width and height.
Dia. Actual is W x H / 2 NOT what the maker has listed on the box, see: Stated Test, above.
Actual Mono equiv, should be Actual-ish Mono Equiv. These equivalents are equivalent as compared to Trilene XL, "ADVERTISED", diameters http://berkley-fishing.com/products/line/monofilament/trilene-xl 
Actual, measured, diameters can be found here: http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4linetestingplastic.htm in the last column, but are not important for this comparison as it is merely here to establish a baseline as to what is generally accepted as a particular diameter/lb test line that everyone knows and recognizes as such. ie: "this braid feels/looks like 6lb test mono".

EDIT: had to cut out all of the charts I created on Word 'cause they got mangled in this forum. I'll have to cut this off as part one and post the document as an outside link tomorrow. It's late and I'm too tired to deal with this any more tonight.


----------



## Mr. A

Soooooo, did you figure out why you were getting the knots and losing distance? Line diameter won't matter much if the same problems arise. Just asking cause I have a few hours invested reading your posts!

Mr. A


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## dax

So, has anyone been using nonofil by Berkley?the guy at gander mntn tried to sell me on it I wasn't looking for casting line at the time they claim it casts further than all their others.zero friction zero stretch super line strength mono manageability...blah blah $20/150yds in cabelas.i haven't done any research on it yet but I'm on my way.
After all is said and done I need to get new line on one of my matching setups which means a head to head showdown #8 trilene xl (previous formula) vs. ???
I like trying new stuff but have gotten hosed many times one example being "viscous fishing pro elite fluorocarbon #8" I threw nest after nest until it was gone.a fellow customer swore by it.


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## freshwater_newb

_Just wanted to complete pt1 of this results post since it just sort of trailed off after I had the formatting problems. So here is the balance of pt1 and pt2.

I never could figure out how to save the formatting, so just used a screenshot of the chart from Word._

In this chart I only listed the brands I was considering, the 20lb weight I had tried and a 10lb weight line which is the size I think I should be putting on my light combo. There are ton more lines and weights listed on Paulus' website but all the major brand braided lines show the same under-reporting of diameter.










So now what should I use on my setup, a reel and rod suited for 4-8lb mono?

It's obvious that I can&#8217;t use 20 lb test braid of any brand as their actual diameters are much, much bigger than they claim. Perhaps they added a third measurement, like "Diagonally! Pretty sneaky sis'.",in order to claim that a 0.299mm diameter line is 6lb mono equivalent when in fact it is nearly 11lb mono diameter, that we as consumers are unaware of. 

Looking at the final column in the chart above, you can see the actual measured diameters of the lines in question. The 20lb powerpro I put on my light setup has an actual diameter equivalent to 10.5-10.75lb mono, way too big for the gear I spooled it on.

But basically, width times height, divided by two to get the average diameter (and don't get me started as to why we are using 'average diameter' on an often oblong or nearly flat object when if it was 1 unit tall but 5 units wide, it won't fit properly through my 3.5 unit door, unless we fold it up upon itself, issue... no wonder people have a multitude of different problems adjusting to braid and are very opinionated as to which one is crap and which is the best) Actual average diameter is the defining information we SHOULD be looking for when choosing a braided line for our setup.

Regarding my particular problems with the line I choose as my entry into the braided world, PowerPro 20lb, it turns out to have been a combination of several factors. 

1) I am using line much too big for my combo, 10.5 lb test equivalent, and trying to throw sub 1/4 ounce weightless plastics on light tackle. Not surprising at all that I'd suffer tangles from doing that but it did seem surprising, since I believed that I was using 6lb equivalent line.

2) Overfill of the spool being another factor. Since I cut off a ton of line from my reel, I have had only one tangle/"wind knot" during several hundreds of casts. Unfortunately, my reel is now under-filled and creating a lot of extra drag/ friction climbing up and over the rim of the spool while casting. A number of posters pointed out that the current pics of my reel shows a proper fill level, but it is, in my opinion, about almost twice as deep as it should be. So while it was previously slightly overfilled, just shy of a nickles width deep, it is now about 2 nickles width deep and very underfilled. 

So it is helping to keep the tangles away, but I am still loosing casting distance because of all the friction as the line comes off the reel.

I had thought to try Suffix 832 in a 20lb weight and even bought a spool, but looking at the numbers above, I can readily see that I would have been worse off than I started as the suffix has an even greater line diameter/mono equiv than the powerpro. So the 20lb Suffix goes back to the store.

So what exactly do I want out of a line? 

A thinner line is better for casting, a thicker line is better for strength. All of the braids listed are silly strong and punch above their weight (just look at those tested lb breaking strengths above A and B test runs). Of course, you can see that this is heavily related to their &#8216;actual&#8217; line diameter.

While I could try and fiddle with some lb test between 20lb and 10lb and try to get it just right, it seems obvious that I can really maximize all the benefits I require by choosing a 10lb test line of which the &#8216;actual&#8217; measured diameter fits comfortably in the 4-8lb test range of my light combo.

Which one?

Well it's funny. After all this research and numbers and stuff it turns out that if you can choose the proper diameter braided line for your setup by using the 'actual diameter', not just what's printed on the box, the lines are all very much the same and it becomes very subjective and why you'll choose suffix over prowerpro or whichever, will end up being a matter of opinion.

BUT, if we want to get thinky and mathy again, I have come up with a method to further tweak our list and narrow down our choices by throwing some final numbers at the problem before we get to the "i just like it better" part of the equation.

Lets take our example braid from pt1, the PowerPro 10lb hi-viz yellow and chuck some pretty simple math at its specs. I'll round all results off to the 2nd decimal point and we're gonna use mm since it tends to be a more accurate measure for tiny things.

10lb test line, 0.212mm actual diameter, the average of 18.11lb and 19.75lb actual breaking strength (ABS) = 18.93 lb

Advertised lb test divided by actual diameter = merely a baseline number so we can get a feel for how and what sorts of numbers we are working with.
10 / .212 = 47.17

Averaged ABS divided by actual diameter = the freshwater_newb number (FN#) a real number we can use to define how really strong a line is vs its competitors.

18.93 / .212 = 89.29 

PowerPro 10lb hi-viz yellow has an FN# of 89.29

Let's compare on the list of lines above.










I've highlighted the 10lb braided FN# in green for easy reference and 'cause it's what I'm interested in here, but I gotta say the 20lb results are pretty interesting as well.

So what does this mean?

Looking at the listed 10lb test braided lines, Suffix 832 kills them all with a FN# of 121.64 and an incredible 29.68 lb ABS all in a 7lb mono diameter equivalent. 

BUT, looking at their actual diameters, it's easy to see why. It's just plain thicker than all the others. As a matter of fact, in no case on this, granted small sample size, does line diameter not directly correlate to FN#

So duh, yeah. Thicker line is stronger, but I still think it's useful to know the FN# of a braided line and the actual diameter/lb test of equivalent mono.

Now we are back into the subjective area of which line to choose. I'm liking the nearly 30lb ABS of Suffix in a 7lb mono equivalent package and think i will go with that for my light combo as it falls neatly into the range my combo can handle 4-8lbs and is just crazy strong.

I'm choosing strength over smaller diameter since I throw my lures into snag heaven and need to be able to drag stumps out of the water so I don't loose my lures.

It's all up to the user at this point to consider all the other factors now in play like abrasion resistance, coatings, color choices, etc.

But I'm done for now. So another time perhaps. I'm exhausted.


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## dax

Love your science F_N. I'm looking into nanofil too the roundness of the 832 sufix "r8 precision braid" seem to be a factor in my mind.let us know the results once you get some time in with it.i wrote this out better once and my battery got low and lost it before I could post it but in short thanks this logical approach will help me at least.again let me know how it does for ya!


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## Mr. A

For reasons that currently escape me I decided to line my reel with the green 17# Nanofil. No issues there, pkg even states to slow the line to come off the side of the roll in a CC direction, same as it will be picked up on the reel.

My reel should have held roughly 170yds. I put exactly 20yds of making on the reel and found that there was no need for backing, used the original case and a drill to correct my mistake. 

Line has ZERO memory but it's kind of stiff, so I can form a "j" with the line and it status that way under no weight. Any weight straightens it out. Additionally, this really helps when tying the suggested knots with the line.

Wanted a leader so I used some mono and a Modified Allbright knot, works great.

Aside from possibly being visible in the water I have not found a down side to the line yet. Except trying to cut it..

Lastly, this is the second time I have used this line. The first was 8# white and the issues I had that were not my fault were with fraying. The 17# still casts better than other braids and lines I have tried, by a lot!

Please note that I have not had this line in the rocks like at a stream/river so some unique issues could be there. Otherwise I am happy with it.....

Mr. A


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## gabertooth

I started reading this thread... but then I felt like I was studying for a test toward the end... I have been using 15lb powerpro braid on my battle 4000 from Penn... these reels are nice because they have a spool made for braid so you dont have to use a backing, but thats really beside the point... My current setup is kind of just thrown together because i broke my spinning rod... I had to take a baitcasting rod and cut the finger guard off and use it upside down for my spinning reel just until i figure out which rod i want to buy. Any rate, my geometry is way off, my guides are way to small, and my rod is a crappy rod in general... that said, i don't get knots, i rarely find a bunny ear, and I have probably the worst casting technique out there... i have found that less is more with braid, because we here in ohio don't see much freshwater fish that will eat through hundreds of yards of drag like you would in the ocean, a guy can get away with 100 yards of braid and still function. I bought 100 yards of 15lb power pro and used maybe 75 yards on my reel. It looks to me to be less than half full on the spool, and works like a champ! Ive never tried this, but have heard of some guys putting a rubber band on their spool in place of backing because all backing does is keep your braid from spinning as a single unit on your spool as you reel or have drag come off... good thread, and a TON of useful info... and a lot of info that showed me how bad i am at casting


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## Mr. A

I've heard of the rubber band as backing as well. But thinking I can reinvent the wheel I started using pipe tape this year. Works like a champ too!

Mr. A


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## gabertooth

Mr. A said:


> I've heard of the rubber band as backing as well. But thinking I can reinvent the wheel I started using pipe tape this year. Works like a champ too!
> 
> Mr. A


That is genius!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


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## acklac7

acklac7 said:


> One last thing: moss green power pro in 8/10 lb (preferably 8 lb) with 10lb Seguar Floro as a leader simply cannot be beat.


Pure sex my friend, pure sex.


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## dax

Ok,so due to lack of options (no nano fill) I too chose the suffix 832 #20 my choice was #10 or #20.i used the backing because I'm cheap unaware of the slipping issue not sure if I'll go that route again I will likely troll with it so probably no backing should slippage concern me with the suffix 832?


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## dax

Oh, i passed on the beloved power pro when I took the 2 lines and rolled them between my finger and thumb the pp line didn't roll well at all.i believe a rounder line will run thru the guides and have less resistance in the air and water .i wonder if a flatter line spools better"... the rest is all a feild test can't wait till daylight now!


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## Bad Bub

I honestly love the 832. And yes you should back it. It will slip, especially when you hook up. I don't use as much backing as most of the other guys. I only put enough on to cover the spool. I personally don't want any chance of the knot joining the main line to the backing coming off the spool....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Iowa Dave

The rubber band backing is a cool idea. I've always used a piece of electrical tape to keep braid from slipping. 

Great information and research there OP.


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## Bassbme

I'm like Bad Bub in that I probably don't use as much backing as some do, my reason is the same as his. I don't want to feel the knot joining the two together, much less see it. I know a lot of the things that fisherman do are out of personal preference, but I don't understand not using any backing at all? If the spool on your reel holds 120 yards of line, why wouldn't you fill it with backing for at least a quarter of the capacity of the spool? I'm not saying my thinking is right, but I use backing on every one of my reels. The only exception would be if I were filling a brand new reel, with line. And even then I may use backing depending on the type of line I want as the final result. For instance ... if I get a new reel and I want to fish braid on it, I'll put a backing of whatever spare line I have lying around, and then tie the braid to that. I have some reels that have backing on them that is probably 15 years old. There's no need to change it, as it's just something to take up space. I don't know ....... it just seems like a waste of good line and good money too me.


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## freshwater_newb

Iowa Dave said:


> The rubber band backing is a cool idea. I've always used a piece of electrical tape to keep braid from slipping.
> 
> Great information and research there OP.


Thanks for the vote of confidence.

As far as all the discussion about using rubber bands instead of backing, just remember that rubber bands deteriorate and not over decades either. Especially in humid conditions, and with heat (inside of your car, out in the sun and in your garage to name a few hot spots) it deteriorates very rapidly.

I'm sure you've all had the sticky ball of paperclips glued to the inside of your desk as a reference as to what can happen with rubber bands.

I wouldn't use rubber bands, not that I've had any experience personally with braid, but teflon/plumbers tape doesn't deteriorate like that and seems like a decent alternative to mono backing.

Regarding electrical tape, I wouldn't use it for the same reasons as the rubber bands. The sticky mess that electrical tape can leave behind, especially under the conditions a reel is likely to be subject to.


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## dax

How are you liking the suffix FwN


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## freshwater_newb

I got a bunch of stitches and have been laid up for a couple days and will continue to be out of action for the next two weeks or so, but...

I did buy the 10lb Suffix 832, in low-viz green and respooled my light combo. I was able to use it once for about 2 hours up at Alum the day before I got injured.

*Here's my report.*

I put 12lb Trilene XT on as backing, about 8 yards. Tied 10lb Suffix 832 to backing with modified albright/ Alberto knot, 12 wraps mono side and 15 wraps braid side. Nice tight, thin and super strong. 

I wanted to get Seaguar, blue label, 15# Flourocarbon as a leader, but Cabela's was sold out. I decided to try the Cabels's branded version of the 15# fluoro instead after seeing on the label that it was made by Seaguar. We'll see how that works out.

10lb Suffix 832 was tied to 24" of Cabela's Fluoro 15# leader with my favorite, the 6-turn Yucatan knot. The best damn knot most probably have never tried. (I really do need to make a how-to video of the yucatan since 90% of what I've seen online, especially and including the knot wars segment, tie the knot incorrectly).

I filled the spool almost to the rim with braid. About a dimes width of space between the line and the rim of the spool. I did this on purpose to test my theory that it is not the overfilling with braid that causes the problems, but the actual diameters of the line, as described in my long winded posts above.  

I went to Alum on a very windy evening, I believe it was Tuesday, just before sunset. I was out on a bare rocky point and could cast into the wind, into the lee of the point and across the wind. 

I casted with a variety of weights (within the range of my combo and one weight above and below its optimal specs) and a variety of terminal tackle, different densities and wind resistances (weightless soft plastics to big crankbaits to bottom rigged hooks with heavier slip sinkers, etc. The whole gammut.)

I tried every type of casts from finesse flips to all out chucking for distance to my pre-load maneuver, overhand, sidearm and cross shoulder.

I mixed up all these different variables and combinations and tried to make the setup fail.

I was unable to make a single tangle/"wind knot", hangup, twist, bunny ear or any other line failure occur. I tried every bad technique and form I could think of to achieve failure but was unable to make a single bad thing happen.

The setup was bulletproof.

THOUGHTS:

It is not the line, well the *brand* of braided line anyway, which accounts for the success. I am convinced that it is purely the diameter of the line which is responsible for success or failure in these circumstances.

Based on the findings in my previous analysis, of the vast differences between the manufacturer's stated line diameter and its actual measured average diameter, I believe that the real reason people viciously hate or adoringly love one brand of braid over another is purely because, as luck would have it, the one that they love, happens to have an actual line diameter that is appropriate for their rod and reel.

Just look at our examples above for 20lb test braided line, which all manufacturers, claim to be the equivalent of 8lb mono (which should, based on their claims, be a perfect fit for my rod and reel which requires 4, 6 or 8lb mono for optimal performance). The actual measured diameters for that 8lb mono-equivalent braided line were: 11lb, 10 1/2lb, 10 3/4lb and 17lb test!

No wonder I was having problems. No wonder so many people are so opinionated about which brand of braided line they believe is the best. It all depends what experience they had with it, when by good or ill fortune, it either fit their setup or didn't by pure dumb luck.

If I had tried 10lb PowerPro instead of the 20lb, I never would have noticed a problem and would believe that PowerPro was awesome. If I had started out with the 20lb Suffix, I would have thought that it was a crap brand. 

Even though both the 10lb and 20lb line should be perfect for my light rod and reel, we can see by looking at the ACTUAL diameters that there was never a chance in hell for me to have had a decent experience with braided line, even if I tried every single brand out there in a 20lb line weight.

Now that I have a proper diameter braided line for my setup, it is working great. No tangles and I can now finally reap all the advertised benefits of braided line. 

Hell, it also seems that not only are my reduced casting distance issues resolved, but I am now able to throw every single piece of hardware much, much further than I was ever able to with the 6lb mono line I originally had on this reel.

I am now convinced. 

I am keeping braided line on my pflueger president and will more than likely use it on my other spinning reels when the time comes to respool. 

BUT...

I will not choose which braid to load by brand preference or advertised line weight, claimed mono equivalent weight or even advertised line diameter but, rather, by *actual measured average diameter* of the line in question. 

I will then further narrow down the available choices by using the FN# of each line to determine its actual breaking strength to diameter ratio and its relative strength as compared to other lines of a similar diameter or weight category.

I may now consider such factors as coatings and claimed abrasion resistance, available colors, discounts and coupons, etc. as well as whatever brand loyalty I may have to settle on a particular braided line.

It is only in this way that anyone can be certain that they are properly matching and optimizing their line to equipment experience and performance.


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## Paulus

Hi Guys
Freshwater newb, seems you have been doing some reading, that's a trap as it may have no end.

I think you need to take into account the number of strands in the line as a 4st is a rope line, I would only consider a 4st under 20lb listed, then prefer a 6 or 8st.

The fiber used is not all the same, choosing spectra has some advantage over Dyneema, as spectra only has one range albeit it varies in strength, Dyneema has up to 4 strength ranges, a 0.5mm diameter line can have a bs of 40lb and then 80lb, depending whether it is Sk60 or Sk71.

A lot of fake Power pro around and I wonder if you are actually using a fake rather than a true PP, much of it is a 4 strand anyway.

I believe that so called wind knots are generated by a mismatch of many things, the line being only one of them, best is to space the spool 0.4mm forward so you lay more line to the rear of the spool, in the instance of a larger diameter line that would make a difference.

When I have time,,,,, Lots still under investigation.

Paulus
PaulusJustfishing


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## streamstalker

I have 10 lb. PP working just fine on everything from 1000 to 4000....no problems.


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## freshwater_newb

Paulus,

Huge thanks to you for your hard work and all the info posted on your website.

You've got a massive amount of data available over there and I think that your testing protocols and accuracy is second to none. Serious dedication Sir!

Obviously, I couldn't have done a fraction of the research I did without the invaluable resource your data collection represents. Thank you again for the opportunity to expand my knowledge.

All the best,
Alex

P.S.- very cool you decided to stop by and post in my thread. 




Paulus said:


> Hi Guys
> Freshwater newb, seems you have been doing some reading, that's a trap as it may have no end.
> 
> I think you need to take into account the number of strands in the line as a 4st is a rope line, I would only consider a 4st under 20lb listed, then prefer a 6 or 8st.
> 
> The fiber used is not all the same, choosing spectra has some advantage over Dyneema, as spectra only has one range albeit it varies in strength, Dyneema has up to 4 strength ranges, a 0.5mm diameter line can have a bs of 40lb and then 80lb, depending whether it is Sk60 or Sk71.
> 
> A lot of fake Power pro around and I wonder if you are actually using a fake rather than a true PP, much of it is a 4 strand anyway.
> 
> I believe that so called wind knots are generated by a mismatch of many things, the line being only one of them, best is to space the spool 0.4mm forward so you lay more line to the rear of the spool, in the instance of a larger diameter line that would make a difference.
> 
> When I have time,,,,, Lots still under investigation.
> 
> Paulus
> PaulusJustfishing


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## dax

I can't believe this sufix it's #20 832 .im throwing a 1/16oz. Orig.floating rapala over 60' with no effort, #20 test line I'm shocked.

i slightly overfilled as I figured it will lay down on the spool neater with use and palomar knot chips away at length .

From the first cast in the yard with a 1/4 oz weight I knew it was drastically better than the stuff I swore by for eons...really drastic.
there isn't even gentle curl from the spool it lays straight at rest thru the eyelet .

i went to the river (finally) to get it wet and do the old style mono stretch I swore by for so long .i immediately said oh shyte as I cast a bulky floating jitterbug on a swivel WAY downstream I've never casted anything that far EVER!

at the waterfall I discovered that I've been missing ALOT of fish . I started catching 6"-8" walleye on 1/16oz lures that I never thought were there. a local kid said there was a lot of them and that they are tough to catch due to the rapid current.

i felt the lure go in and out of turbulence and the difference in the action of the lil rapala.un freaking real!!! 

Oh and not a single loop or twist nest, completely manageable. 

I still want to put the sufix up against the less expensive power pro and nano fil too, but really my days of trilene xl mono are over! Thanks everyone for putting all this info up here .i passed my exams with ease huh huh.i can't wait to put some #10 sufix on my ultra light.

I hope your all healed up soon F_newb! 
I had paid the price in blood when I first tried braid too! get some good gloves with nitrile coating for when you clean the stuff off the bottom

Thanks again everyone for helping me get off the mono!


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## sherman51

I started using suffix 832 last year. my nephew and me was going fishing in this farm pond and it has a lot of stick ups. so I wanted to use alittle heavier line than the normal 8 lb trilene xl I usually use so I bought the suffix 832 in 20 lb test. caught a stringer full of bass and it worked beautiful used it again this year and it still worked flawlessly. I,ve never used anything any heavier than 15 lb before on my spinning reels. but this stuff works so good I will never use mono for bass in a pond again.

I decided to refill all my trolling reels for my lite bite slide divers this year as some of them still had cabelas rip cord and some I had changed to power pro as I lost line over the last few years. you guessed right I bought suffix to fill them with. just because I used the line for bass fishing and really liked it. I look forward to using it for trolling.
sherman


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## dax

Hey sherman51, you've been using the suffix 832 for awhile I have a question and for the power pro guys too.

Coating fade, I've only got 6 hours or so on the sufix 832 and it has gone from dark green to green tinted white and at the end of the night it holds onto a lot of water. may or may not be losing casting distance/accuracy. Once dry it seems to cast great again but after several hours on the water a lot of spray when I cast and seems sluggish.

Is this common with all these or this braid?

I know someone mentioned the fade in one of the chapters here , off hand not sure who.

I'm going to try to email the manufacturer see what they say.

Again,thanks to the participants of the most in depth thread on braid I've found so far.


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## Intimidator

Alright, I stayed out of this long enough!
I only use braid...or Nanofil...first my braid experiences!

I use braid on different reels...Quantum Smoke Spinning, Quantum Smoke BC, Abu Garcia 1276sli SPINCAST, Zebco Omega Pro Spincast, and Daiwai Spincasts. There are no mechanical tolerences in Spincast "Coffee Grinder" reels and the braid I use is just fine on each.
I don't use backing, I use electric tape and fill the reels full, and I don't use leaders...I don't fish in gin clear water, but I fish in clear to light stained to stained water...so I don't need a leader.
I have used cheap to super expensive Japanese braids...what I've found is 8 strands or more is better, all superlines lose their color...except for the ghost or whites. Most manufactures except the Japanese lie about their diameter and strenghth! No braid casts farther than Nanofil, and fish in the water I fish don't care about what color my line is!
I have used PP, Suffix, etc, etc, on ALL of my reels, including the LOWLY Spincasters... with no issues...I prefer Daiwai Samurai in all sizes and 17 lb Nanofil...and so do all of the fish I target and some I don't!


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## Bad Bub

dax said:


> Hey sherman51, you've been using the suffix 832 for awhile I have a question and for the power pro guys too.
> 
> Coating fade, I've only got 6 hours or so on the sufix 832 and it has gone from dark green to green tinted white and at the end of the night it holds onto a lot of water. may or may not be losing casting distance/accuracy. Once dry it seems to cast great again but after several hours on the water a lot of spray when I cast and seems sluggish.
> 
> Is this common with all these or this braid?
> 
> I know someone mentioned the fade in one of the chapters here , off hand not sure who.
> 
> I'm going to try to email the manufacturer see what they say.
> 
> Again,thanks to the participants of the most in depth thread on braid I've found so far.


The fade is common to all braids as the color is not natural to the fibers. And the fibers used do not "absorb" the dye. Its more just a coating. Some do loose it quicker than others. Personally, I believe braid is a very visible line to fish no matter what color they make it, I've never felt like color fade is costing me bites. And a good old sharpie marker will recolor it as well as anything.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Intimidator

Bad Bub said:


> Personally, I believe braid is a very visible line to fish no matter what color they make it,
> 
> 
> 
> Samurai 15lb braid is the same diameter as a human hair .007 and you are telling me that fish are gonna notice that instead of your lure! I just ordered High Vis Yellow in Samurai and Nanofil because I can see it better and it has been catching the same amount of fish...side by side, in the same conditions and light stained water. If you are imparting the desired or needed action to the baits you are using, you can catch CRAPPIE (which can see and eat zooplankton) with 65lb braid...fish after fish!
> 
> Another reason for the High Vis Yellow testing was that I am just now starting my night Walleye, Bass, and Crappie, fishing and I can see it better in the night-time hours.


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## lordofthepunks

I tried nanofil... Wasn't impressed with casting distance... Going back to power pro in the conditions I use braid in.... Intimidator.. I know you are obsessed with braid but every pro I know (a lot of them) say you get more bites with floro and I agree.. It effects bite rate... May not in every condition and every scenario but there are times when it absolutely makes a difference... I'm not going to take that chance in losing out on a potential game changing bite...


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## Intimidator

lordofthepunks said:


> I tried nanofil... Wasn't impressed with casting distance... Going back to power pro in the conditions I use braid in.... Intimidator.. I know you are obsessed with braid but every pro I know (a lot of them) say you get more bites with floro and I agree.. It effects bite rate... May not in every condition and every scenario but there are times when it absolutely makes a difference... I'm not going to take that chance in losing out on a potential game changing bite...


Dude, I am not a PRO...do not fish for just the Big Bite...I need to fill my freezers and have no problems doing it...I love to eat Crappie and Walleye! 
If it was for Money...yes, I would use other lines needed for conditions of every lake, pattern, or lure! I fish for food in the Spring and for fun the rest of the year....I have adjusted ALL of my fishing to use superlines AND THE KEITECH LINE OF PLASTICS...there are some give and take....I catch BIG Fish...I am one that feels it is more the lure you choose and the action you impart on that lure that makes the biggest difference in catching fish!


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## lordofthepunks

Does it matter to the fish if you are a pro or not a pro? Either way, bite rate is effected... The fish don't know that you are fishing for fun, or fishing for food, or fishing for money, all they know is that at times they don't want to eat a bait that has braid tied to it... Just because you are fishing for food doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference...

I honestly don't care what line anyone uses... Makes no difference to me but when I hear someone suggest that the fish don't care, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with that... Now if you choose to ignore that possibility that it might make a difference, "it's your ballgame Carl"

I can only offer up what I know


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## sherman51

dax said:


> Hey sherman51, you've been using the suffix 832 for awhile I have a question and for the power pro guys too.
> 
> Coating fade, I've only got 6 hours or so on the sufix 832 and it has gone from dark green to green tinted white and at the end of the night it holds onto a lot of water. may or may not be losing casting distance/accuracy. Once dry it seems to cast great again but after several hours on the water a lot of spray when I cast and seems sluggish.
> 
> Is this common with all these or this braid?
> 
> I know someone mentioned the fade in one of the chapters here , off hand not sure who.
> 
> I'm going to try to email the manufacturer see what they say.
> 
> Again,thanks to the participants of the most in depth thread on braid I've found so far.


I do notice the fade in the suffix but I have had all my braid line fade but I don't believe it makes any difference to the fish if its faded or not. there is times I believe the fish are alittle more line shy than other times tho. that's when I brake out the old fluro leader, LOL. 

last year and this year my nephew and me went fishing in the same farm pond. I used 20lb 832 he used 8 lb mono, we both caught fish side by side. so the line didn't make any difference to those fish.
sherman


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## Bassbme

I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what reasoning you try and use with people that think line visibility doesn't matter. You're never going to convince them otherwise until they experience it first hand. Even then, there will be some that refuse to even consider that it makes a difference. And some that it won't even cross their mind.


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## buckzye11

Since i strung up 2 reels with the P-line CXX hi-vis yellow(no leader) ive been catching more Bass in water that has 8 foot visibility. I switched because i really like to see my line position at all times. I'm sure other factors play into that, and maybe i'd catch more if i went to flouro, not arguing that... but the role line visibility plays to the weekend/freetime angler is nill... i agree with Brent... it's 95% the action(or lack of) that you induce to your lure of choice. If i were a pro(at anything) i would look for every advantage i could work with to up the ratio even 2%... but i'm not, so the advantage of me being able to see the line on a windy day or low light conditions outweighs the chance of fish not biting because it dosent like yellow. Fish brains are small and simple... hungry = eat. Satisfied = rest. If i can get some reaction bites thrown in there ill take it, but as a weekend angler im fishing for the ones that are ready to fill their gut.
As far as Crappie fishing goes... i will never fish for Crappie again without hi-vis yellow... it makes all the difference in the world when you are watching your line like a bobber when jig fishing.
Not trying to be a rebel rouser, just saying different people fish differently... bottom line is fish eat because they have to, not because i want them to. This is a good thread and disscusion, wanted to throw my opinions out there.


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## Intimidator

lordofthepunks said:


> Does it matter to the fish if you are a pro or not a pro? Either way, bite rate is effected... The fish don't know that you are fishing for fun, or fishing for food, or fishing for money, all they know is that at times they don't want to eat a bait that has braid tied to it... Just because you are fishing for food doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference...
> 
> I honestly don't care what line anyone uses... Makes no difference to me but when I hear someone suggest that the fish don't care, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with that... Now if you choose to ignore that possibility that it might make a difference, "it's your ballgame Carl"
> 
> I can only offer up what I know


It doesn't matter to the fish if you are a Pro or not but it makes a difference in the way you fish....a Pro is after a few quality fish...in your case 5 a day. You want 5 legal fish and hopefully then you can cull to larger fish...this effects your decisions.
Each lake is different....tactics, water quality, and patterns also...different kinds of Bass also.
When I fish, I want 100+ crappie every time I go out and take the best 30 over 12 inches.
I also want as many Gators as possible, and take 6 around 20 inches. Most of the time BIG fish are not the eaters that I want. 
But even with my "obsession" with Superlines, I have no problems catching fish...anywhere!

After the freezers are full and I'm fun fishing, I'll still target fish the same way and when I do catch a BIG fish I will smile and release them. 
All I'm saying is that flouro did not catch me any more fish...mono didn't either...with both, I lost 
ALOT more fish, and lures to the rocks, cover, etc

This is 2 totally different types of fishing.


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## dax

Thanks Sherman51 .....and wet line ... do you notice a difference casting it dry or after hours in water I was casting at night so it was hard to tell and I'm new to the line. It felt slugish not as sensitive to me.

Is power pro also like this and nano fill ?

To chime in on visibility I believe a finicky fish will stare it down rather than attack even in poor conditions. I think a flouro leader is a Definate when targeting anything but musky and walleye at night, day walleye likely a clear leader for me.


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## Bassbme

I don't understand the thinking that line visibility doesn't make a difference to the weekend angler, or the meat fisherman. If a lines visibility affects the number of bites you get, then it affects the angler regardless of their reason for fishing. Be it recreational, or professional. The debate isn't whether or not a person catches more or less fish with a high visibility line. The debate is whether or not a person gets more bites using a less visible line than they do using a more visible line. 

All I know for sure is this. I have experienced the difference line visibility can make, first hand. I've used highly visible line (Berkley Solar) while drifting spawn sacks for steelhead, and not gotten a bite. I have then put on a leader, and without switching fishing positions, I started getting bites and catching fish, from the same stretch of river, and the only thing I did differently was use a leader. I have had the same thing happen while bass fishing. I've fished stretches of shoreline cover, or a particular weed bed using braided line and not got a bite. I've then turned around and fished the same bank or the same weed bed, using the same bait and the same weight sinker with the only difference being fluorocarbon line. And I've gotten bites, and caught fish. Has it always worked out like that? Of course not. But it's happened more than once, and that's proof enough for me that it can, and does make a difference. It's like LOTP said in an earlier post. I don't care what kind of line anyone else uses. Just please don't tell me that line visibility doesn't make a difference. Because I know for a fact that at certain times it can, and does.


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## Intimidator

Bassbme said:


> Because I know for a fact that at certain times it can, and does.


THAT IS THE KEY....As I have said before...many times...I DO NOT fish clear water...I fish LIGHT STAINED to STAINED water. Line color HERE has been proven not to make a single bit of difference. I can no longer comment on clear water since I haven't fished any in years! I can't speak to tourney fishing anymore either...all I can share is how I fish in lakes like CJ!
I've done color research and posted it and how light effects different water, lures, line, etc. If your line blends in with the natural surroundings then a fish is not going to pay attention...certain colors that WE see, a fish cannot, or the water changes the color or mutes it.
Fishing is also Mental if you are not comfortable with a reel, pole, line, or lure, your head is also "Off" and your fishing will suffer...some fishermen are pre-disposed not to like a line, lure, etc, because it is out of their "Comfort" zone, some do not like change!
I experiment...all the time, I wanted a cheaper, more effective, more compact, way to fish...I needed 2 pc poles, line for all occasions, and a line of lures that would catch fish all year around...I researched colors, what fish can see, how water effects color, strengths and weaknesses of poles, lines, lures, etc. I made myself adapt my set-ups to all occasions and factors!
Now I'm very comfortable with MY fishing....others have done the same thing and adapted the way I fish to the way they fish...they do not do it exact, they take bits and pieces and add to it.
I now have 1 type of pole 6'6" MH, 2 lines..braid and Nanofil, 3 reels...BC for Bass, spinning for Walleye, and Spincast for Crappie, jig heads with sickle hooks, and Keitech line of lures.
Simple, Easy, and Effective...all year 'round, at CJ, our creeks and ponds!


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## dax

Ok so to get back off the subject of casting out nests. Now for reasons that elude me I've spent some time untying nest in the suffix 832 #20 now, seemed to be the first hour on the lake.I did give up on one and cut (guessing) almost 30' of line off. Had one small knot after that. It was however much easier to untie and showed no damage to the line unlike the trilene xl which also got twisted up at that time as well. I'm going to blame me somehow. The sufix rod had this issue I guess 6 times and the trilene once I had no choice but to cut 20' of trilene and I had it over spooled about that so I consider that awash. this was the first time shore fishing since putting both new lines on so something in my shore casting was affecting it? Too much effort trying to get distance? More lure swapping?all of the above or none of....either way I caught small largemouth,large feisty smallmouth ,several walleye and perch late afternoon to midnight at lake Milton. I was reminded how fun smallys are they must be the pound for pound champ and toughest fish along with rainbow trout in the right conditions ,carp and Muskie (so I hear) those tasty walleye just seem to roll over and take it!


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## dax

Still random loops almost like a tied drop loop consisting of twist with loop pulled thru middle. If they don't consist of many twists they can just be pulled straight out of the wet line with force the line is unscathed where as mono would break in that situation but the head to head battle between the trilene and suffix is still a tie with the exception of price and some days I won't get a bite on anything untill I tie a flouro leader on period!so that is my follow up on my experiment I will be after the power pro sometime later this season and for the price trilene xl unfortunately is still a winner for most applications it's tough manageable and reliable and cost efficient,simply put I know I know I know....but,but,but.....


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