# .223 for Deer



## bobk

I am going hunting this year on a buddies property and want to use my AR. Anyone have suggestions on a load for deer. I have some Remington 55 gr. psp right now. I'm thinking they will work. Want a clean kill so if there is something better I'm willing to try it. 
Thanks


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## RJohnson442

You can only use a shotgun in Ohio buddy. Muzzleloader .38 and larger


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## Mad-Eye Moody

I'm guessing you are going out of state. That being said, many states do not allow .22 caliber center fires for deer. Also, there are some states that might allow that caliber but have magazine limits or action type restrictions.

Saying you have made sure all this is in order, no the 55grn psp is not a good choice. You can kill a deer with it, but really want a sturdy heavy bullet. Federal makes a 70 grain round called federal fushion. I have heard they work fairly well given the caliber restrictions. It is pointed with exposed lead but has a bonded core.


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## ezbite

RJohnson442 said:


> You can only use a shotgun in Ohio buddy. Muzzleloader .38 and larger


yea... buddy.lol.


RJohnson, maybe he's hunting in another state..

and I think BoBK needs to buy an AR-10


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## RJohnson442

Lol I figured as much. But in this day and age sometimes you have to state the obvious.


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## Mad-Eye Moody

I would second the AR 10 if if you wish to go the black gun route. Get a serious caliber like a 308 or 6.8.


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## bobk

Ezbite you buy the ar-10 and I'll borrow it. I'm not hunting in Ohio it's West Virginia. Mad Eye from what I've read it looks to be legal to use .223 there. I have a 1/9 twist so 70 grains looks to be about the max for that barrel. I'll try to find some ammo. Hopefully it's around with all the panic who knows. I'm not going to buy another gun just to go there and hunt. 2 ar's are all I really want right now. If the .223 won't work I'll just take my encore. Thanks for the help.


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## RJohnson442

I'd say 308 or headshot with a 223 if you go that route


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## Sharp Charge

If you're going to use the .223, I'd recommend at least a 62gr projectile. If you're shooting a 1:7 twist barrel, see if you can find 70gr rounds.


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## treytd32




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## Lundy

Sounds like a fun hunt, always good to have a little change of pace with hunting weapons

I'm also pretty sure Bob won't be taking any intentional head shots, he is a better hunter than that


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## Homey

Why not use a real hunting rifle? No reason to go into the woods with an underpowered weapon.


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## Mushijobah

Homey said:


> Why not use a real hunting rifle? No reason to go into the woods with an underpowered weapon.


It's not underpowered for WV deer


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## ezbite

Homey said:


> Why not use a real hunting rifle? No reason to go into the woods with an underpowered weapon.


Underpowered?? I don't our military thinks its underpowered when they send troops to war with the .223, If it can kill a man, I'm sure it can kill a deer.


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## Homey

Certainly, a perfectly placed bullet from the .223 CAN kill a deer, but it is certainly not designed for that. In fact, a perfectly placed shot form a .22 short can do the job, but no one would (or at least should) seriously consider using that as a deer hunting weapon.

For a clean, responsible, and humane kill, a bullet should have at least 1,000 ft-lbs of energy. The AR in .223 is below that at 100 yds. Get a real hunting rifle and leave the AR for the target range.


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## treytd32

which would do more damage?? I clean pass through of an arrow at 15 yards, a shotgun slug making a clean pass, or a bullet that begins to yaw and the stresses become to great and it starts to spin apart, and the bullet breaks at the cannelure, the bullet nose, and the back end of the bullet both take a seperate tragectory, and as there doing that there continueing to break up, and bits of lead start to get squeezed out and each fragment in turn takes it's own seperate tragectory, in short it's kind of like a little shotgun going off inside the target.

(.223 fragmentation stolen from another thread)


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## bobk

Well darn. Here I thought I had a "real"hunting rifle. Funny that the West Virginia DNR approves it for hunting. I'm looking forward to using something different for a change.

Good one Kyle. They rather small over there.


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## MassillonBuckeye

5 round mag? Looks really short.


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## bobk

treytd32 said:


> which would do more damage?? I clean pass through of an arrow at 15 yards, a shotgun slug making a clean pass, or a bullet that begins to yaw and the stresses become to great and it starts to spin apart, and the bullet breaks at the cannelure, the bullet nose, and the back end of the bullet both take a seperate tragectory, and as there doing that there continueing to break up, and bits of lead start to get squeezed out and each fragment in turn takes it's own seperate tragectory, in short it's kind of like a little shotgun going off inside the target.
> 
> (.223 fragmentation stolen from another thread)


OUCH!! that's going to hurt.


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## bobk

MassillonBuckeye said:


> 5 round mag? Looks really short.


Yep, that's how Remington sells the rifle. I have plenty of 30rd mags for it.


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## ezbite

bobk said:


> Yep, that's how Remington sells the rifle. I have plenty of 30rd mags for it.


you better take the 30rd to WVA, ive seen you shooting.lol.


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## supercanoe

I would take the TC. 223 does not penetrate well. I have shot it into a lot of different types of materials to test penetration. A light bullet moving fast looses energy very quickly once on target. If you try it go with a heavy bonded bullet. You must have a bullet that stays together. A bullet that does not stay together will really loose energy fast and will not penetrate bone and meat very well. That is not a good thing on deer size game. I love the 223 round, but would not use it on deer. If you do try it, let us know how it works.


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## crappiedude

ezbite said:


> Underpowered?? I don't our military thinks its underpowered when *they send troops to war with the .223, If it can kill a man, I'm sure it can kill a deer*.


That's pretty much what I was thinking.


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## supercanoe

The round was chosen for service based on many factors, lethality was not the top priority. The fact of the matter is that humans and deer have very different physiological traits. And a deer must be tracked and recovered after the shot. A 223 will make a very small entry hole and may not exit. This will make for very little blood. A 22 cal entrance wound will coagulate easily. If the shot is perfect you may be ok. Anything else and it could be a wounded or lost deer.


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## treytd32

that is assuming the round enters, stays solid, and does not exit. I believe the "internal shotgun" effect is a much more common occurrence which does not sound very conducive for breathing, running any distance, or life for that matter. I would not worry about massive internal hemorrhaging coagulating. Lucky deer don't wear body armor.. but then again I've never seen WV deer so I can't attest for that.

but yes the .223 has many other factors that contribute to its military use


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## supercanoe

What kind of big game animals have you killed with a rifle?


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## ostbucks98

.223 will drop a deer in its tracks. ive seen first hand damage done by a. 223 round and it is devastating. have no worries and make sure to let us know how you did.

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## Bad Bub

I work and fish with a lot of west Virginians, and many of them hunt with a .223. It'll do the job.

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## leupy

I would say there is a good reason very few states allow the use of a .223.


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## jonnythfisherteen2

how about if he used a soft, heavy round? that would probably ensure the most transfer of energy. might have to keep it close if the FPE drops off at range.


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## ostbucks98

leupy said:


> I would say there is a good reason very few states allow the use of a .223.


that has more to do with gun control laws and certain groups discrediting a .223 as a hunting round.

here read this
http://www.huntingclub.com/magazine...7/is-the-223-rem-deadly-for-deer#.Uj7mfPdq3E4 

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## Angler ss

Federal Permium Ammunition! .223 Rem 60 grain Nosler Partition bullet. I killed a deer with this round in Missouri the deer was over 100 yards away bullet passed through the deer. No need to track he dropped where he stood when I squeezed the trigger.This Round is built for medium game such as antelope,white-tail and black bear.


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## supercanoe

Those are good bullets. They do exactly what a bullet should-penetrate, expand, and retain weight. I killed an elk with them in 308 when I lived in Colorado. If I was going to use a 223 on deer I would trust that round more than any other.


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## yonderfishin

Part of the strategy using .223 in the military is they are wounding weapons , not necessarily lethality. The idea is that if you wound one soldier and 2 other soldiers have to care for him or carry him out then you can effectively remove 3 soldiers from the field with one bullet , in theory anyway. If you make a good shot you can kill a deer with almost any rifle , it just has to be a really good shot.


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## ostbucks98

the .223 is preferred for its accuracy and muzzle velocity by US forces. The object is not to wound oppsosing forces. the shockwave created by this bullet devastates tissue. you may see a pinky size entrance hole but peel the skin back and you made a 15" diameter of mush.

other than diameter there is no way you can compare this to a .22 round as some have mentioned.
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## treytd32

ostbucks98 said:


> the .223 is preferred for its accuracy and muzzle velocity by us forces. The object is not to wound oppsosing forces. The shockwave created by this bullet devastates tissue. You may see a pinky size entrance hole but peel the skin back and you made a 15" diameter of mush.
> 
> Other than diameter there is no way you can compare this to a .22 round as some have mentioned.
> Sent from my zte-z990g using ohub campfire mobile app


+1........


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## jlami

I spent the majority of my deer hunting years in the Ozark Mountains. (they are really just hills) My buddy preferred an old mac 90 with iron sights. Used it every year and we never lost a deer to a non fatal shot or excessive damage from shock wave. He has taken deer at a wide variety of distances ranging from 20 yards or less while walking brush, to a shot I witnessed and would have never believed otherwise at over 300 yardsfrom hilltop to hilltop (pure luck and he should have never taken the shot, cost me a case of beer) The round always stayed together and always exited. The first few years he did have a problem with getting excited and placing more rounds into the animal than was necessary, but I feel that was a combination of lack of discipline, moronic youth, and having a little too much fun. After about two deer each year that was no longer an issue. And 1 shot kills were the norm. Can't remember tracking anything more than about 50 yards either. You will be fine as long as you dont get trigger happy

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## Homey

Ballistics info form Remington for common white-tail rifles as well as the .223

Round At 100-yds	At 200-yds	
Velocity	Energy	Velocity	Energy
fps	ft-lbs	fps	ft-lbs
.223 55gr PSP 2747	921	2304	648
.243 Win 100 gr psp	2697	1615	2449	1332
.270 Win 130 gr psp	2776	2225	2510	1818
30-30 Win 150 gr sp cl	1973	1296	1605	858
.308 Win 180 gr psp	2395	2288	2178	1896
30-06 Spr. 180 gr psp	2469	2436	2250	2023
35 Rem 200 gr sp cl	1698	1280	1376	841

As you can see, the .223 does not stack up well against the more traditional hunting rifles.

As far as the supposed benefit of the "internal shotgun effect" - this is not a good thin in terms of a quick, clean and humane kill. As the bullet fragments it loses energy and momentum, which means less penetration and less effective damage. (There is a reason most shotgun hunters use slugs, not shot, for deer) Sure, the deer may die, but the possibility of a slow, lingering death is much higher with a .223 than with a traditional deer rifle. Once again, not saying it CAN"T be done, there is just too great a risk of a less than clean kill.

As far as a previous comparison of the .223 at some distance as compared to an arrow at 15 or 20 ydes, I'll take the arrow every time. The broad head has 3 cutting surfaces making a 1"+ diameter zone of damage, when reasonably well placed will pass through both lungs. This results in a clean humane kill and usually a nice blood trail. With the .223 there is too great of a chance of fragmentation and the resulting loss of energy and penetration.


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## Homey

sorry about the hard to read table above - formatting was lost when it posted. The numbers after the round specs are: velocity at 100 yd, energy at 100 yd, velocity at 200 yd and energy at 200 yd.


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## ostbucks98

you know at this point its a lost cause. really? take a bow at 20 yards over a .223? thanks for losing all credability to this thread. 

its one thing to prefer bowhunting over firearms but to try and say an arrow is gonna do more damage? wow.

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## Homey

I would certainly NOT say that a bow is superior to all firearms, and certainly not superior to typical deer rifles. The comparison was meant to be a well-placed arrow at 10 to 20 yds, which will typically get full penetration through both lungs, to a .223 at some longer distance, say 100 yds, due to the tendency of the .223 to fragment. This was not meant to compare bow v all firearms nor bow to a .223 at the exact same distance and assuming that the bullet does not fragment

On the other hand, I would certainly prefer the killing power of a high-powered hunting rifle such as any of those I listed in my previous post, since those are designed to provide adequate energy (for shock damage) and to resist fragmenting (for full penetration and resulting internal damage).


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## ostbucks98

im only talking from my former 6 years in the army and owning an ar myself. guys are talking about fragmentation like the bullet explodes on impact. this is not the case at all. there is alot of mis-information here and i think most of it comes from hear say and not first hand accounts. 

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## eatinbass

ostbucks98 said:


> im only talking from my former 6 years in the army and owning an ar myself. guys are talking about fragmentation like the bullet explodes on impact. this is not the case at all. there is alot of mis-information here and i think most of it comes from hear say and not first hand accounts.
> 
> Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I agree, There is a lot of misinformation. The fragmentation that most people are referring to is The M855, 62 Grain "Green Tip" round. Note the velocity dramatically impacts the yaw of the projectile. Its this yaw, that causes the steel tip to separate from the projectile.
Nosler and Hornady both make a nice hunting bullet in .22 that will work well for deer.








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## treytd32

I believe people use slugs instead of shot because of their effective range and accuracy. Not a very good comparison, comparing a single projectile to hundreds of bb's with limited range, as in this case a round does not fly through the air fragmenting. I don't buy an arrow causing more damage than a bullet dispersing its energy into the heart and lungs of an animal, compared to a larger round causing the same effect, obviously more energy will be transferred but not an inch of linear damage. I'm sure someone out there has shot media gel with an arrow.


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## Lundy

Comparing an arrow to a bullet is an apples to oranges comparison on how they kill a deer.

However either one will performs the job just fine, but in much different ways.


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## SGPitman

We can use .223 62 grain or larger out here in wyoming for big mulies and they work just fine. Hornady makes some nice hunting ammo for that caliber. It will drop anything with no problems if you know how to shoot. I've seen people shoot big game with a 7mm and not drop it. All that matters is your not trying to shooting 1000 yards out and and you can hit a kill spot. Good luck and have fun.


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## ostbucks98

did you get one with the .223 yet?

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## bobk

Both of us shot a doe a few weeks ago. Mine was the size of a large dog. Good thing since after she died it slid into the abyss. Shot a 69gn. bullet and the deer went maybe 20yds. before the big slde. Had a good time hunting with the ar and will be there again in December.


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## buckeyebowman

treytd32 said:


> which would do more damage?? I clean pass through of an arrow at 15 yards, a shotgun slug making a clean pass, or a bullet that begins to yaw and the stresses become to great and it starts to spin apart, and the bullet breaks at the cannelure, the bullet nose, and the back end of the bullet both take a seperate tragectory, and as there doing that there continueing to break up, and bits of lead start to get squeezed out and each fragment in turn takes it's own seperate tragectory, in short it's kind of like a little shotgun going off inside the target.
> 
> (.223 fragmentation stolen from another thread)


There's your answer right there. As far as I'm concerned, your fragmentation argument sounds like a recipe for a lot of spoiled meat! I also want to eat the deer I harvest, not just kill them! But, Hey! Who doesn't enjoy finding a bit of fragmented lead with their teeth when tucking into a fine venison steak or roast! I've seen many instances of deer dropping far more quickly from a well placed arrow through the vitals because there is no adrenaline producing BANG! of a firearm going off! I put an arrow through an 8 point that didn't even know he was shot! He kept on feeding until he dropped over!


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## ostbucks98

yeah those .223 fragmentation rounds leave a mess. any more foot in mouth comments?

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## Mushijobah

bobk said:


> Both of us shot a doe a few weeks ago. Mine was the size of a large dog. Good thing since after she died it slid into the abyss. Shot a 69gn. bullet and the deer went maybe 20yds. before the big slde. Had a good time hunting with the ar and will be there again in December.


Glad it was effective and you had fun!


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## Ring

Homey said:


> Certainly, a perfectly placed bullet from the .223 CAN kill a deer, but it is certainly not designed for that. In fact, a perfectly placed shot form a .22 short can do the job, but no one would (or at least should) seriously consider using that as a deer hunting weapon.
> 
> For a clean, responsible, and humane kill, a bullet should have at least 1,000 ft-lbs of energy. The AR in .223 is below that at 100 yds. Get a real hunting rifle and leave the AR for the target range.


i see you have zero experience on this subject...

here is 20pages of deer dropped by 223 some out to 400+ yards


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