# Buckeye Dan



## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have heard some recent positive rumors about the legalizing PCR's

Any new insight for you?

I would really like to get one for my DIL to use during the deer gun season if she elects to hunt again


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## joebertin (Mar 26, 2010)

I was looking at the regulations last night. 5 inch barrel or longer, 38 caliber or greater, straight wall brass only. Check out YouTube for videos about hunting with Glocks.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

joebertin said:


> I was looking at the regulations last night. 5 inch barrel or longer, 38 caliber or greater, straight wall brass only. Check out YouTube for videos about hunting with Glocks.


That is for handguns, I understand the handgun hunting regs. I am referring to a potential addition of PCR rifles being made legal. Same calibers as are legal today in a handgun but used in a rifle.


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## luredaddy (May 25, 2004)

I have heard that rumor for a number of years, that would be nice. If I am not mistaken, Indiana permits it. John


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## Blue Pike (Apr 24, 2004)

Like luredaddy I also have heard rumors for quite some time. 

It is kind of strange that I can take a T/C Contender 45-70 pistol with a 15 inch barrel deer hunting, but not a 1895 Marlin 45-70 with an 20 inch barrel.

Joe check out this video --- A Glock with an nine inch barrel. Hickok 45


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## scallop (Apr 1, 2007)

I would love, love, love that to be true. Nothing like walking the woods with a lever action. I have an 1895 SBL .45/70 that is an absolute hoot to shoot, would be great to use it for something besides targets. Not to mention the .44mag and .357 (do not have a .357 lever yet but it is on the short list)

Now dream hunt for it would be an American bison. Heck, I would probably buy a Sharps for that though. The .45/70 hits like the hammer of Thor.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Well there was a push last year that kind of lost some momentum. However I heard very recently that it was back alive and better than ever. I heard that there may have been an acceptance from the farm bureau for this proposal. 

That is why I want Dan to bring me up to speed on this.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Lundy,

The OFBF just had their Policy Review Conference December 5th. I personally sent every OFBF county rep the PCR proposal accompanied by a short educational piece. That document is on their servers.

I don't know yet what the outcome for this subject was. If the OFBF supported it, you can expect to see this subject on the wall at the ODNR open houses in March. When something gets to that step in the process, it usually happens.

On the other hand, if the OFBF shot it down, it may never happen and if they remained neutral it could go either way. Neutral could still allow this to happen but may slow it down.

Every indication that I got from my dealings with the OFBF was positive but that was executive leadership and not the county level.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Yo, Dan,

Anything new?


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Update!

The OFBF approved pistol caliber rifles during deer gun season! This should be on the wall at the next ODNR open house in March.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Lundy,

I was off in the woods hunting when the conference took place and didn't realize the OFBF had completed a news release:
http://ofbf.org/media-and-publications/news-room/623/

I've been watching their Policy page which is much slower to update.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

That is potentially good news.

Do you know if the proposal that the ODNR will put forth will be as was outlined earlier?

Any currently legal pistol cartridge would be legal in a rifle or have modifications been made?

Thanks


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Our original proposal has never changed.

It should be:
1)Any cartridge currently legal to hunt with in a handgun, would be legal in a rifle.

2)Black powder cartridge rifles would be legal during regular gun season. 

3)Compliance for 3 shot rule using dummy rounds, or similar "simple" fix.

4)Make these changes effective state wide if possible. 

There may be a sunset provision attached which was in our original proposal.

I don't know the language in the OFBF policy or the ODNR changes at this time. More than likely I won't be able to comment on it until it is made public anyway but standby.

I didn't attend the last meeting with the Chief and like I said before, I was completely unplugged during the OFBF conference and am still playing catch up.


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

Below is the language that was considered and approved by delegates at The Ohio Farm Bureau Federation's 95th Annual Meeting.



> The division of wildlife should encourage the use of Pistol Caliber Rifles (PCR) to be included as legal firearms during shotgun or pistol deer season


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

Hopefully if this goes through cartridges such as the 45-70 and 460 winchester make it in as well.

Marlin stopped making some of the pcr's that I would have been interested in such as the .444. It's lever action line is now down to .44 magnum (I'll stick to my slug rifle) and the 45-70. I am guessing that all the folks that don't want rifles in ohio will get the 45-70 off the list quick if they look at Hornady's website. 

Tc still makes a .460 in its encore though. Bet it barks pretty good with its 20" barrel!


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

I guess I am not seeing what you are seeing. What is special about the Hornady .45/70? The best they have to offer is 2050fps at the muzzle. That is 50fps faster than the Hornady SST slug in 12 gauge.


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

You know Dan I was having this whole conversation in my head when I wrote that and it kind of made sense at the time, because I was drooling over ballistics tables and pictures of new rifles for an hour or so before hand.

My conversation with myself had nothing to do with comparing to a 12 guage slug. I was thinking of how it keeps coming up that Indiana has not had any problems so we should try it too. However, Indiana started with some fairly strict restrictions. They loosened a little to include some better calibers after a period of time, but in the beginning what was being used by the common hunter off the shelf was only a little different than my 20 guage slug guns.

Some guys were inventing wildcats like the 357 maximum and spending big bucks to get that extra 50 to 100 yards but that was a small percentage. 

So what was happening in my head was that we say it was fine in Indiana, but we really are proposing some heavier stuff. Kind of like a 12 guage slug, but in honesty a little better than that. The Hornady lever revolution round carries almost the same energy at 300 yards as the 12 guage sst does at 200 yards. The trajectory is terrible, but it is effective on deer size game at 300 yards, if you are a physicist. Lol.

A 12 guage slug in a small percentage of slug guns and a smaller percentage of hunters hands can be a 200 yard gun. There are guys who spend a tremendous amount of time and money getting their slug guns to be the best they can be. Then there are guys who get lucky in the beginning. I have gone through several setups myself, and my 20 guage is an honest 150 yard gun. A large bore pcr is more likely to be more effective in more hands, they are more accurate, cheaper to shoot and have better REAL ballistics.

Let me be clear, I fully support PCr's. I want the .444, .460 and 45-70 to be legal. They will be cheaper to shoot than my slug gun, making practice more viable. I can hand load and tailor a round for the gun, make it more accurate, and more likely to be used at a longer range, less destructive to meat at close range and more fun to hunt with.

So to the question, what is special about the hornady 45-70? It is special because it is loosely similar to the 12 guage, at least on paper. What they started in Indiana with is not.

I will be supporting this at any level. Any step towards a more manageable, more accurate and more efficient killing round for adults, youth, women is a good step indeed, and your work on this topic and awareness of the possibility literally keeps me awake at night with excitement. Even if all we get is a gun that a small framed ten year old can handle that is not a 410 we are making progress.

But I am only speculating that there is a percentage of naysayers who will be involved in this process that would swing towards allowing rounds that are less likely to travel greater distances than a slug, but maybe not rounds that would. I know, I know, many scientific studies find the new slugs to more dangerous than many rifle rounds, but that is not the kind of information everyone wants to embrace. Heck, hornady says many of these rounds are good for bear, moose and elk. What image does that paint for the misinformed? They are the ones I worry about, and direct my original post to.

Heck, on the hornady site there is a picture of a bull Moose that a guy killed with a .444 marlin at 197 yards. When I saw that I was thinking holy cow! That is a serious round! But just because it can kill a moose at 200 yards doesn't make it any more likely than a slug to kill a bystander a quarter mile away, but we all know some will believe that to be the case.

Do it think we will have accidents with a heavy caliber pcr that we would not have with restricted pcr calibers? No, I don't. Some folks will think we would. But their head is in the sand about what we are using already, as you kind of pointed out.

Ps, the .444 marlin has a muzzle velocity of 2325, and is still hitting hard enough at 300 yards to do the job and doesn't have as bad of a trajectory as the 45-70. That would be my gun of choice, if I could find one. 

ULtimately, I want rifles for Ohio. I've killed enough big game with both rifles and slug guns to say with great confidence that given my choice, I would not even own a slug gun. 

Even with new technology, I have greater confidence in a rifle round than a slug. I have never broken a scopes reticle with a 30 cal round, I have done so twice with a twelve guage, I don't spend $50 practicing and sighting in a gun every year with a rifle, I spend $20. I don't have to worry about buttoning barrels, measuring torque on my barrel cap, the difference the sling has on trajectory or any of that special crap when I shoot my rifle to get moa at the range. It took me years of work, and hundreds of dollars to settle in the slug gun I use now that I can finally trust. Yes, I am a slow learner.

I have a marlin lever action and shoot lever revolution ammo out of it in WV. If the pcr can give me half the performance, accuracy and reliability than my .30-30 does I will never look back. And the reading I do says that it will.

So, dan,I am on board. Don't retake it any other way. Just hoping we get something that can be all it can be, not what Indiana started with.

Robert Ruark, a boyhood hero of mine, said "use enough gun". This will give us more choices based on our age, skill level, and size to do just that for each persons situation.


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## Mad-Eye Moody (May 27, 2008)

Btw, if the above was too long, made no sense and seemed a pointless waste of cyberspace, I apologize. There were a couple of cups of holiday cheer involved in its writing.


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## RushCreekAngler (Jan 19, 2011)

I asked the game warden that gave a presentation at the sportsmans club I belong to about that. He told me that the main problem was that they needed to have a survey done (not sure why) and that nobody wanted to pay for it. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## buckeye dan (Jan 31, 2012)

RushCreekAngler said:


> I asked the game warden that gave a presentation at the sportsmans club I belong to about that. He told me that the main problem was that they needed to have a survey done (not sure why) and that nobody wanted to pay for it.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


The policy that the OFBF recently adopted should eliminate the need for any further surveys.

Everyone should make it a point to attend an ODNR open house next March.


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## RushCreekAngler (Jan 19, 2011)

That's good to know. While my only carbine right now is 9mm, I would invest in one I could use for deer hunting

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


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## Ted Dressel (Dec 16, 2006)

I hunt in Indiana. When they made it legal to hunt with pistol cartridgethat gave me the reason to buy my Henry BB .44 mag that I always wanted. Before that it was just a dream. Now my dream came true.


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