# Thank you Andrew...



## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

...for introducing me to flat wing flies. I've been trying to tie deceivers fatter & longer, but it adds too much bulk to the fly, making it a nightmare to cast. I've also been trying to understand how fly profiles & movement trigger reactions from fish. What makes them want to eat it? 

I know the fish I catch, specifically hybrid striped bass... are lying in wait in the seams of current & rush forward & up to snag my offering. I wonder if the chartreuse catches their eye as it rushes by them, or if just the general motion and color contrast is what sets them in motion? 


Since I know they are looking up at my presentation, the flat wing style lends itself to this type of swing. The defining feature of a flat wing is that the feather profile is seen from the top/bottom vs. from the side. It is typically fished in the upper portion of the water column, just the way I've been doing it with my other ties. I've been in need of a new favorite pattern since I've become bored with deceivers. Same for clousers. It's amazing how your flies start out in the beginning stages of you learning what works & why...and how they end up once you've achieved success over & over. How your preferences change.

Another important aspect that I am am extremely happy about is the lack of bulk. These two flies will successfully represent a 6-8" shad, but only weigh a fraction of what my sparse clousers do. Much less material. I'm excited to get them into the water & see how they glide through the current. I'm also looking forward to how well they're going to cast on my 9 weight. 

And of course, I'm looking forward to the fish's response. 








































And the really sweet profile from below... 



















If I have success, I'll post it here. Thanks again Andrew.


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

Wow, you really dove right in, eh?

They look good. The hardcore flatwing guys won't epoxy the heads, or add any kind of "extra" weight because, as the argument goes, they fly should "glide". But just as a flatwing can be a form of thinking outside the box, I think one should not jump out of one box and right into another. So, experiment away!

Also consider tying flies that go really span the range of "sparseness" from those that seem just about right to those that really seem way too sparse. You might find that some very sparse flies will actually look reasonable in the water. 

Hard-core flatwing guys also get very particular about the hackles they choose. Personally, I've never purchased the Whiting Flatwing hackles because I never need them (and they ain't cheap) but some of them look really sweet if you're into long and slinky flies.

I'll see if I can eventually post some of my own photos and/or those of some of my friends' flies.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I saw that there are a lot of hardcore guys. I wouldn't post them over there.  

Tonight I put in a couple hours on what should have been productive riffles. I fished the fly with the barred yellow saddle hackle all night exclusively. 
Unfortunately, the fish just weren't there. We haven't had enough rain to generate a strong Fall run. Things can change but if the water temps continue to decline there just won't be a Fall run, & the best fishing of the year will have been done with. (12 fish in a day) 

The fly... I am pretty amazed with. I did use a pretty heavy hook, which lead to the fly sinking a little more than I would have liked. I have a variety of hooks & chose the super point because I just love the way it looks & getting a good hookset on a line side is pretty much guaranteed. On the next versions, I'll use one of my super light aluminum saltwater hooks. Since the hook is the only weight in the fly, the extra savings in weight will have it swinging closer to the surface. 

The epoxy was an experiment like the rest of the fly.  It was roughly tied as a Rhody Flat Wing, with the addition of the spotted feather eyes (experiment/practice) & then I figured what the hell & glued the orange eyes on too. After that I think I prefer small plastic eyes expoxied instead of the feather eye. 

..but then again, if I was going _au naturel_, I'd probably use hand made cat gut, feathers from a bird I downed & hair from a deer I chased down & strangled with my own hands. 

I'd do it that way more often but it's so time consuming....plus, not much in nature is holographic. 



I'm going to change my plan of attack & switch locations for a while, hopefully I'll have some photos to share before much longer otherwise, I'm gonna go nuts.


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

Really sweet but I would like to mention another fine material to make them bigger by using Yak hair. This stuff is wonderful and is a bit cheaper then Icelandic pony hair.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Flyfish Dog said:


> Really sweet but I would like to mention another fine material to make them bigger by using Yak hair. This stuff is wonderful and is a bit cheaper then Icelandic pony hair.



I love Icelandic ponies. Never seen one, but how fun it must be to ride one around Iceland.


I do have some yak hair though!










Hot pink too, because...as you probably know, all Icelandic Ponies...are hot pink. (edit: Yaks! All yaks are hot pink. Right?)


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Also, I realized that my hair proportions are not really right. Practice makes perfect.  

I've already dreamt up about 1,000 new ideas based off the concept.


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

fallen513 said:


> ..but then again, if I was going _au naturel_, I'd probably use hand made cat gut, feathers from a bird I downed & hair from a deer I chased down & strangled with my own hands.


This is how I do it, but I understand that many other people lack my dedication to the sport. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

(As an aside, though: you don't need to strangle the deer to get the bucktail; you just need to cut off the tail. Saves a lot of time.)


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

If you do use the eyes, can you bump up the size of them? Predatory fish key on eyes, and the eyes seem a little small compared to the size of the pattern. I usually border on excessively big eye size whenever possible.


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

TheCream said:


> Predatory fish key on eyes


Out of curiosity, can you provide any evidence that this is true? This is a debate I've seen many times, but I've never actually seen a very convincing argument. I mean, I understand why it "seems" like it makes sense, but then again, there are many observations that seem to counter this. Like the fact that many very successful flies, lures, etc. don't have eyes.

Or the fact that "eyespots" on some organisms are hypothesized to have evolved as a way to _deter_ predators.

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'd just like to hear your thoughts (or anybody else's) on this.

Andrew


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

TheCream said:


> If you do use the eyes, can you bump up the size of them? Predatory fish key on eyes, and the eyes seem a little small compared to the size of the pattern. I usually border on excessively big eye size whenever possible.


How about eyes bigger than the fish?











The most successful & original patterns had no eyes @ all, so I'm not sure I particularly care for the larger ones. I tend to agree that the fish may home in on the eyes, but I've caught so many on flies without them I think it probably doesn't matter much. 

Guesswork!


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

My next goal is to reduce the amount of thread in front of where the hair & feathers are tied in, like these:





















Flatwing = less is more.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Andrew Stoehr said:


> Out of curiosity, can you provide any evidence that this is true? This is a debate I've seen many times, but I've never actually seen a very convincing argument. I mean, I understand why it "seems" like it makes sense, but then again, there are many observations that seem to counter this. Like the fact that many very successful flies, lures, etc. don't have eyes.
> 
> Or the fact that "eyespots" on some organisms are hypothesized to have evolved as a way to _deter_ predators.
> 
> ...


I can provide evidence it's not true. 

I've seen striper swallow walleye ass flipper first. They key on ass flippers per my brief study.


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Andrew Stoehr said:


> Out of curiosity, can you provide any evidence that this is true? This is a debate I've seen many times, but I've never actually seen a very convincing argument. I mean, I understand why it "seems" like it makes sense, but then again, there are many observations that seem to counter this. Like the fact that many very successful flies, lures, etc. don't have eyes.
> 
> Or the fact that "eyespots" on some organisms are hypothesized to have evolved as a way to _deter_ predators.
> 
> ...


I remember reading it, couldn't tell you where. A quick search did find this, not sure how scientifically exact they are:

http://www.ebiomedia.com/Eyes/Why-do-some-animals-pretend-to-have-eyes.html

Here's an exerpt:

"Most predators key visually on eyes of their prey, making an effort to approach the prey from a direction where they won't be seen. There is a distinct advantage to any prey that can fool the predator into approaching from the wrong end  the one with real eyes that will see the predator and trigger a timely escape. Many fish have a conspicuous false eyespot on or near their tail fins. When a predator approaches from the "rear", the prey fish is fully aware of the danger, and it escapes in the exact opposite direction to that expected!"


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

Yes, I suppose what they've said about eyespots is inline with my understanding of why those eyespots evolved.

But I guess what I really meant was "Do we have any evidence that flies with eyes, or with larger eyes, actually catch more fish?"

I happen to agree that eyes often make a fly look much more appealing to me - I put eyes, sometimes large ones, on a lot of my flies when I'm in a creative mood.

But I've still never heard of any good evidence showing that flies (or lures) with eyes actually trigger more strikes. 

Again, I'm not criticizing anybody's fly designs - if I'm taking photos of flies to show other fly fishermen, I want them to look awesome, which means I might put eyes on them, I make sure all the feathers are in place, etc. When I'm fishing them...not so much!


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

Used to think eyes were somewhat important til I kept using flies well after they got destroyed. Came to the conclusion that they just make a fly look very purtty and stand out to the non swimming crowds to loathe. Still fun to put them on no doubt but not needed. plus almost always, baitfish are trying to escape by moving away until nabbed from behind like Fallen said. Like the bigger fish said to the lil fish, " Your ass is mine"HeHe!


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## TheCream (Mar 19, 2009)

Andrew Stoehr said:


> Yes, I suppose what they've said about eyespots is inline with my understanding of why those eyespots evolved.
> 
> But I guess what I really meant was "Do we have any evidence that flies with eyes, or with larger eyes, actually catch more fish?"
> 
> ...


I suppose the same could be said about the red hook craze that came on strong with lure companies a few years ago. Do fish really think they look like blood? Do they have time to recognize something that minute? I don't know, but I'd say 75% of my baitfish/streamer ties have a few streaks of red in them, or I'll use red thread for the pattern to splash a little red color near the head of the fly.

In a country where we have studies on fast food diets and other ridiculous things, I'm sure there are lure studies out there somewhere, you just have to find 'em.


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## RonT (May 4, 2008)

Prior to this Fall a big fly for me was ~14 with the occasional 10 for Steelhead Stoneflies. After I "discovered" hybrids I haven't tied a fly smaller than a 2, so I'm soaking all of this up.
I have always subscribed to "the top view catches the (fly)fisherman, the bottom view catches the fish" thinking. Color and Profile mean everything.
Now my thinking is "White is good, with added flash for bling". 
Was out yesterday, btw, and tagged a ~14" Pike on a 4" White n' Silver, a buddy caught it's twin in he next run. The water here is 44*.
R


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

One I tried to make as basic as possible..... I was amazed at how it swims, darting & sinking...gliding through the seams.


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

fallen513 said:


> One I tried to make as basic as possible..... I was amazed at how it swims, darting & sinking...gliding through the seams.


Nice. I like that the cork is still in the bottle, too! You don't have have to get up and go to the fridge...


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

I'll be hitting the warm water discharge as soon as the river gets down to a sane level.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Those are tied on these Gamakatsu wide gap finesse hooks...


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Updated the the last few pics I posted showing the flatwing when it's wet.

I've also started making my own "eyes" by wrapping saltwater flashabou in silver a few times, then covering with epoxy. It glints from across the room, which is what I wanted.

I've had incredible luck through the years fishing very basic chrome type spoons, etc. and I know the fish love a mirror like reflection.


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## oarfish (May 12, 2004)

Some really nice flies you have posted. They look absolutely good swimmers.
I believe in the eyes also.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Basic bucktail...










Sparse clouser...










A little homemade fly box porn...














Thanks again Andrew. Believe it or not, the info you persuaded me into absorbing changed the way I tie flies forever. 


Good stuff man.


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

Very nice flies.


I especially like that one in the lower right of the photo, with the bright marabou. Is that a bit of duck on the front end?

Have you ever seen Gartside's soft-hackle streamer? Reminds me of a striper version of his streamer. I like that one a lot for small mouth bass.


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Andrew Stoehr said:


> Very nice flies.
> 
> 
> I especially like that one in the lower right of the photo, with the bright marabou. Is that a bit of duck on the front end?
> ...


Thanks...it's actually silver flash. Of all the countless materials I have, duck is one I've never picked up.

I'm on a "chrome" kick right now, I think that silver flash reflects light with the most efficiency & that's why it's so productive. 

Theory of course, but it WILL get tested...sooner than later.


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## Andrew S. (May 22, 2010)

Oh yeah - I can see that it's flash now. The "kinks" looked sort of like the barring on duck feathers.

I have been eye-balling the silver tinsel on the Christmas tree in my building's lobby. That's a lot of silver Flashabou that's going to go into the trash on December 26.

Unless.....


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## fallen513 (Jan 5, 2010)

Andrew Stoehr said:


> Oh yeah - I can see that it's flash now. The "kinks" looked sort of like the barring on duck feathers.
> 
> I have been eye-balling the silver tinsel on the Christmas tree in my building's lobby. That's a lot of silver Flashabou that's going to go into the trash on December 26.
> 
> Unless.....





...tis the season!


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