# Challenge to all fellow kayakers



## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

With the recent event at WB plus others that I have read about over the years on different forums. It's mostly the same thing no PDF. 

The challenge is a couple things.
1st is to wear your PDF at all times. Yes I know they can be a pain and warm in the summer but what's more important. 
Somewhat like when they changed the law in Ohio to wear your seat belts. It took a long time for me to get used to it but now it's second nature. 

2nd take a class or learn how to self rescue yourself in the event you capsize. I was in a kayak club and did do some roll and self rescue classes to learn how to get back in my boat. Sit in Sides can be different than sit on tops and long touring kayaks like mine are also tougher.

3rd Make sure you have some safety equipment on your kayak other than your PDF. Some things could be rope, bilge pump (for us sit in side guys), whistle, paddle float ( used to assist in a self rescue), Drysuit or wetsuit, float bag bag for your kayak. Plus I'm sure there are many more.

Not sure if there are any Kayak instructors out there that may shed some light on self rescue classes or maybe through OGF we could schedule some safety classes. I would like to meet all of you while out on the water, not read about you.

I myself have planned on sharpening up my rescue skills this year even before this last incident.


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## Whaler (Nov 16, 2004)

That's good information. I don't Kayak myself but I see a lot of them being taken into the park on Wingfoot Lake.


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## GasFish26 (Aug 15, 2012)

I know I had this argument on OGF before but a wearing a life vest on a kayak vessel should be a law




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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

Disagree completely. If not a powerboat why a kayak? Plus 90% of the time Im 50 yards or less from shore and in under 3 foot of water. Mine has been removed from my hatch once in 8 years for a safety inspection, which I passed.


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## GasFish26 (Aug 15, 2012)

Why would you disagree with wearing a life vest ?

Ever tried to swim with clothes/boots on? It's near impossible 




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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

I dont disagree with wearing a life vest, I disagree that it should be law as you stated. I choose to never wear mine, and should be permitted to do so. My point is if it is not law to wear one on a power boat, it shouldnt be law to wear one on a kayak.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

It's the 10% percent of the time that your in over 3-feet of water and more than 50 yards from shore when there is an issue.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

The law issue was talked about in another thread. This thread is more about what you can do as a kayaker to be safe and smart. Plus not put your family and friends through the pain if the worst happens.


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## whitey7 (Aug 20, 2014)

Seems like it would be rather difficult to swim in 40 degree water....you hit the water, and your body goes into shock. 
I wear my vest all the time. Drowning seems like a shitty way of dying.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

For myself after doing some 8-day canoe trips out in the middle of nowhere as far as 2-days paddling from our access point I learned to wear my PDF at all times. On one trip with only my son and I we did not see anybody for 5-days. So a rescue would have only been from my Son.


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## AtticaFish (Nov 23, 2008)

I saw at one time a YMCA had a training day in their pool where you could learn to get back in a kayak if you went in. No clue if they do it anymore. I have thought about trying it in my pond, but never have.

Not sure how much it would help, but i always wear a whistle around my neck same as when i get out on the ice. Getting out very early/late season i would want a wet/dry suit myself. I do always wear my PFD. Most of the places i take my kayak i am over my head in the first paddle stroke from shore.


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## DLarrick (May 31, 2011)

I agree that it’s sad when a tragic event happens but I’m not for making it a law. I don’t need more laws telling me how I can handle myself. especially with the case of a PDF, I am only putting myself in danger. Do I think you should wear one when water is cold or in other certain situations…..yes. but I wouldn’t be all too happy if I had to wear a PDF during a lazy float in 90 degree plus weather.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

I didn't start this thread to debate the issue about having a law to wear a PDF while Kayaking.
The purpose was to help other fellow kayakers to learn or educate them. 

I'm also a certified diver. My dive instructor was great and drove home the training. While on a solo dive I had a issue and the training kicked in and brought me back safetly. So any training in an emergancy will help you think correctly.

Kayaking is a great sport and past time, I'm hooked. But with this sport as with others there are negatives. 

My point was to make other kayakers think about what they know or don't know. 
Can you do a self rescue? This may save your life. 
Do you know about how long you can be in cold water? And survive

I don't know all the answers just putting something out there so others may think about what they know or what they should know.


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## legendaryyaj (Nov 1, 2005)

Educated everyone about Darwin.

It's not an accident to go out without a vest, its a choice. I wear my PFD all the time as well as my seat belt. Better safe than sorry.

I have yet to try to flip my yak if I flipped it but I think I'd rather just leave it than try to save it if I did flip. Rather save myself first.


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## Bassthumb (Aug 22, 2008)

You still only have 10-20 minutes in cold water with a PFD. Honestly if you go in cold water you are in trouble regardless. In cold water you need to have a dry change of clothes and a way to get warm fast, that is way more important than a PFD. Where a PFD really helps is when you are in warm water, where you can stay up and alive significantly longer with a pfd, or when you fall out and knock yourself unconscious. In those instances a PFD is a lifesaver. In really cold water like now, it is only marginally helpful. I always take dry clothes in a bag, towels and a blanket in cold weather kayak situations.


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## legendaryyaj (Nov 1, 2005)

But that's only if you can swim without a PFD. A PFD is a must regardless of cold or warm water. No point in having extra clothes if you can't make it to shore.


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## Frankie G (Aug 18, 2014)

The Cleveland Metroparks offers a class on kayaking. During the winter it's held in an indoor pool at Baldwin Wallace College. They do teach falling or rolling out and how to get back in. It's worth it to learn what it's like and to know what to expect. It's warm, there are lifeguards, and you support the Metroparks. It's a win all the way around!!


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

http://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/Main/Recreation/Institute-of-the-Great-Outdoors-13.aspx
http://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/Main/Recreation/Institute-of-the-Great-Outdoors-13.aspx

This link may be some older dates but it has some contact info scroll down through the page
http://www.keelhauler.org/Instruction/


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

Here is another group near Columbus. I was involved in it for a little bit. Great people but was two long of a drive for me. I'm 100 miles away. They have done some classes as well.
http://www.meetup.com/theohioriverratsociety/


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## monsterKAT11 (Jun 20, 2004)

Bassthumb said:


> You still only have 10-20 minutes in cold water with a PFD. Honestly if you go in cold water you are in trouble regardless. In cold water you need to have a dry change of clothes and a way to get warm fast, that is way more important than a PFD. Where a PFD really helps is when you are in warm water, where you can stay up and alive significantly longer with a pfd, or when you fall out and knock yourself unconscious. In those instances a PFD is a lifesaver. In really cold water like now, it is only marginally helpful. I always take dry clothes in a bag, towels and a blanket in cold weather kayak situations.


The extent to which you are arguing against PFD's is really really silly man. You are much more likely to survive any situation capsizing a boat or kayak while wearing a PFD, argument over. You are basically presenting the argument of the same people who try to argue not wearing a seatbelt can save your life, and that's why they don't wear one. I agree that it should be legal for you to put yourself in harms way through irresponsible logic. That's on you, it shouldn't be a law. But you are safer with your PFD on. I hope you change your mind. Get a quality one, that you feel good wearing it makes all the difference in the world.


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## kayak1979 (Jul 13, 2014)

I wear my inflatable at all times but even with wearing that...I have to be conscious to pull the cord. If an accident happens like getting hit by a powerboat etc...you never know what can happen on the water, but I guess that is the risk I take for wanting comfort on the water with an inflatable.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

I would hate to see any law mandating that we have to wear our PFDs. I have worn my seatbelt since the 70s, not because I am afraid of dying, but because I am afraid of surviving a crash without a belt and the resulting consequences. That’s a risk I’m not willing to take. I also am an avid bicyclist who never wears a helmet, and I’m totally comfortable with that. I’m just not a fan of government mandated safety measures. Seatbelts don’t make me feel uncomfortable. Bicycle helmets, and, at times, PFDs do.


I’d like to have the freedom to determine how I manage my risk. Seatbelts never make me feel uncomfortable, but at times, PFDs do. If I’m heading into open water, cold water, rough water, etc., versus calm and warm water, I want to be treated as an adult who can decide what is right for me.


I recently acquired a self-inflating vest that is very unobtrusive, and I probably will be wearing it in most situations. That’s my choice. If I want to float down a small creek on a hot day without it, that’s also my choice.


One counterpoint I will make that has not been mentioned is against the argument that not wearing a PFD is a personal decision that doesn’t affect anyone else’s safety. I have been following these stories on Google News for several years, and *most* of them end up in multiple drownings. Why? Because you are floating with a friend or loved one who is in danger, and either you or they go in to save the person in danger. Either both end up drowning, or the original person in danger survives and the “rescuer” dies and the first person in the drink survives, as in the story that prompted this thread.


That’s why I remind my float partners that if they end up in the water, don’t count on me to save them…LOL…I’m joking a bit, but it’s a deadass fact that it often results in multiple deaths if you try to save a drowning person.


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## walleyewonder (Mar 26, 2006)

streamstalker said:


> I would hate to see any law mandating that we have to wear our PFDs. I have worn my seatbelt since the 70s, not because I am afraid of dying, but because I am afraid of surviving a crash without a belt and the resulting consequences. That’s a risk I’m not willing to take. I also am an avid bicyclist who never wears a helmet, and I’m totally comfortable with that. I’m just not a fan of government mandated safety measures. Seatbelts don’t make me feel uncomfortable. Bicycle helmets, and, at times, PFDs do.
> 
> 
> I’d like to have the freedom to determine how I manage my risk. Seatbelts never make me feel uncomfortable, but at times, PFDs do. If I’m heading into open water, cold water, rough water, etc., versus calm and warm water, I want to be treated as an adult who can decide what is right for me.
> ...


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## walleyewonder (Mar 26, 2006)

It is apparent you have never worked in an ER (I have) where those who exercise "personal choice" are brought and their families plead with you to do everything to save them. What about the SAR personnel who risk their lives to go into the water to retrieve a body. Please think about the "downstream" effect your choices have on others.


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## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

walleyewonder said:


> It is apparent you have never worked in an ER (I have) where those who exercise "personal choice" are brought and their families plead with you to do everything to save them. What about the SAR personnel who risk their lives to go into the water to retrieve a body. Please think about the "downstream" effect your choices have on others.


Dude, that is exactly the point I just made. Please read more carefully and don't misrepresent my post:



> One counterpoint I will make that has not been mentioned is against the argument that not wearing a PFD is a personal decision that doesn’t affect anyone else’s safety. I have been following these stories on Google News for several years, and *most* of them end up in multiple drownings. Why? Because you are floating with a friend or loved one who is in danger, and either you or they go in to save the person in danger. Either both end up drowning, or the original person in danger survives and the “rescuer” dies and the first person in the drink survives, as in the story that prompted this thread.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

This thread was not started to debate if big brother should tell you to wear a PDF. That's your choice and your life. The challenge was to make you think about what you have for safety equipment in your kayak and do you know how to use them in an emergency.

If you happen to be by yourself crossing the lake and capsize 1/2 mile from shore. Do you know how to roll your kayak and get back in? What if the water was cold and your PDF is stashed in your kayak and your freaking out. If your kayak is out of reach because of the wind and waves. Can you swim to shore without a PDF.

The whole point was to educate yourself and maybe train for the worst case senario. So you can do a self rescue. The more you know the quicker you will make the right moves to get back in your kayak and back to shore alive.

I kayak a lot by myself so I do think about these things. I wear my PDF all the time, have cold water gear, safety gear and have done some training on a self rescue. So I'm pretty confident I will make it back to my family.


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## BuckeyeFishinNut (Feb 8, 2005)

I fished out of a kayak for a few years before I sold off my Old Town Otter. I always had a PFD with me but it never left the area behind my seat. I flipped my kayak a couple times in some creeks that I used to fish and never once did I feel having a PFD on would have made my situation better. I mainly fished small creeks where the water depth was maybe 8' deep at the deepest.

Now if I fished Erie or big lakes with active recreational boating I would probably wear it. Not because I would fear what I would do but what other people out on the water could do. 

The simple fact of the matter is that people put themselves out on the water in kayaks and they aren't prepared to be there. Weeks before I ever went fishing in my kayak I put it on Hoover and just paddled around. I got familiar with paddling, turning, and the stability of my kayak. Bad things happen to people who put themselves in dangerous situations and aren't prepared for the consequences. I don't think a PFD will help that.

If you want people to be safe in kayaks/canoes, they should make them take a safety class before they every get their first registration, much like hunter safety classes. This will never happen but would probably be much more beneficial.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

Here are a couple links for kayak self rescues for sit on top and sit in side. For my narrow kayak I enter from the back of my kayak then slide forward to enter mine keeping my weight low or else I will roll back over again.

http://jacksonkayak.com/blog/2013/03/09/self-rescue-instructional-video-for-sit-on-top-kayaks/
http://www.paddleguy.com/tips-advic...fishing-kayak-guide-with-paddleguy-com-eakfc/
http://www.neckykayaks.com/tips_techniques/safety_rescue/scramble_self_rescue/
http://kayak-skills.kayaklakemead.com/wet-entry.html


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## fishing pole (May 2, 2004)

When your hands and arms are cramping because of the cold water you are not gripping your kayak and pulling yourself aboard. Just ain't happening. Try digging in the snow, or for that matter holding an ice cube and then seeing how much dexterity you have. The PFD may just be that little bit extra you need to get yourself up as you float a bit higher in the water. I agree to each his own. I don't see a whole lot of eye injuries from weed wackers but I bet many wear goggles ...we could go on and on. Either you wear it or not ...your call


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## BigTone (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm am an expert swimmer. I swam all my life, competitively and also became a WSI. I am pretty sure I could out-swim most people. But I would NEVER go out for a paddle not wearing a PFD. You never know what could happen to get you out of your kayak. It is not worth the risk. 


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## bassyakker (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't get in my kayak without my pfd. It's part of my gear every time I get on the water.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

Nice PFD and nice Bass !!!!!


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## bassyakker (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks. Buy a quality vest that fits properly and it won't be a challenge wearing it all day.


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