# Rocky River stench on Saturday



## Lundfish

All of the holes that we went to had a very bad smell.

I guess it's okay to dump antifreeze into the river if you're an airport?

Seriously smelled very bad. 

The fish were biting okay but not like the previous week.

I wonder if the stench is harmful to the fish?

Did anyone else notice? I cannot imagine if you were fishing that you didn't.


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## lunker23

What part were you fishing and does it for sure smell like antifreeze? 
Being a member of the Trout Unlimited Emerald Necklace chapter and knowing a few people that work for the Cleveland Metroparks, I can see if this can be investigated more. 
I know this has been an issue in the past......


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## Cleveland Metroparks

Hey guys, I checked this out today and there wasn't any noteworthy odor at this time. My guess is it was the non-toxic based antifreeze (same as used in marina and RV drinking water systems), some of which leaches into the river from the airport during periods of heavy use. Were the observations from downstream (north) of the Brook Park Road bridge?

Mike


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## lunker23

Cleveland Metroparks said:


> Hey guys, I checked this out today and there wasn't any noteworthy odor at this time. My guess is it was the non-toxic based antifreeze (same as used in marina and RV drinking water systems), some of which leaches into the river from the airport during periods of heavy use. Were the observations from downstream (north) of the Brook Park Road bridge?
> 
> Mike



Thanks Mike........ Lefty


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## Lundfish

I can tell you I fished at the Golf Course (big), Ball Diamonds, Morley, and just upstream at the marina and smelled it at every one of those places.

I also talked to people at every spot I went to and they said the same thing. Very nasty.

If it's non-toxic would you drink a glass?


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## Rippin

it smelled... but more like a shx$&# plant, a sewage river that it is. definitely a stench that day.


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## mountainbikingrn

I know the stench you guys are talking about! Fished it the past 2 winters and best description I have is rotting onions mixed with s&$t! When the river has the smell it almost burns your throat after a couple hours!


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## creekcrawler

And people say the Hoga is nasty...
Years back, I always blamed it on de-icer.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Lundfish

Well glad it wasn't just me.

Unreal that it's acceptable to just dump 'garbage' into the river!

What a total joke.

Just dump it into the river and the lake.

UNBELIEVABLE


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## lunker23

So with everybody taking notice of this stench, have any of you reported it. After all, this is our river/ lake system and we ALL need to get more involved with its preservation. 
Yes, posting here will get results, but this should be brought to the Metroparks attention at the time you noticed it. This way there's first hand knowledge of the issue at hand. 
We all enjoy chasing Steelhead, Smallmouth, Largemouth, Carp, etc. What's going to happen when our waters are no longer able to support these fish? 
Get involved! Help fix the problem! Don't turn the other way because then you're part of the problem.....


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## creekcrawler

Been going on forever. Used to be drains at the airport routed right into Abrams Creek.
Supposed, I thought they cleaned it up a bit and now use "non-toxic" de-icer.
Used to rinse my waders off after fishing the Rocky or they'd stink next time out.

Old article from 2006 here - http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10394642/hopkins-airports-new-de-icing-system-now-fixed

"Tuesday was the first time Hopkins used its new de-icing system, which requires planes to taxi to a 40-acre concrete pad near the runway and get sprayed with chemicals that remove ice. The chemicals drain into a tank and then are taken to be recycled.

Previously, planes were de-iced at the gates, and the chemicals drained into sewer pipes, where they could contaminate nearby waterways.

An airport spokeswoman said the drains near the gates are designed to keep chemicals out of sewer pipes."


Sounds like it isn't quite fixed. . . . .


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## lunker23

Agree 100% Crawler...... Is that a Jeep I see in your profile pix?


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## Lundfish

lunker23 said:


> So with everybody taking notice of this stench, have any of you reported it. After all, this is our river/ lake system and we ALL need to get more involved with its preservation.
> Yes, posting here will get results, but this should be brought to the Metroparks attention at the time you noticed it. This way there's first hand knowledge of the issue at hand.
> We all enjoy chasing Steelhead, Smallmouth, Largemouth, Carp, etc. What's going to happen when our waters are no longer able to support these fish?
> Get involved! Help fix the problem! Don't turn the other way because then you're part of the problem.....


Did you miss the fact that the Metroparks posted on this thread???

I also sent them an email with no response which is why I posted here.

Oh well.


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## Lundfish

creekcrawler said:


> "Tuesday was the first time Hopkins used its new de-icing system, which requires planes to taxi to a 40-acre concrete pad near the runway and get sprayed with chemicals that remove ice. The chemicals drain into a tank and then are taken to be recycled..."


Yep into the tank they go to be recycled. Oh and the creek that drains into Rocky River that drains into Lake Erie.

Have I mentioned; what a joke?


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## lunker23

Lundfish said:


> Did you miss the fact that the Metroparks posted on this thread???
> 
> I also sent them an email with no response which is why I posted here.
> 
> Oh well.


Guess I should have noted that I was the person to reach out to Mike from the Metroparks. Hence his response.....
So, to answer you question (if that's what it was), yes, I clearly got the fact that the Metroparks posted here.


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## lunker23

Lundfish said:


> Yep into the tank they go to be recycled. Oh and the creek that drains into Rocky River that drains into Lake Erie.
> 
> Have I mentioned; what a joke?


So the question is, what are you going to do to help find a solution? We need more people like you to take a stand! I applaud you for posting this as hopefully it'll bring more attention to what's going on. 
Most people will use the resources we have (rivers, lakes, ponds, etc.) and will do nothing to help with the preservation (river clean ups, not throwing garbage on the ground or in the water, etc), but when these resources are no longer available, those same people are the first to whine and complain. 
I don't know, at times I have to shake my head at some of the things I witness on the rivers and lake.


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## Shortdrift

As Lunker 23 said, get involved. It took a number of individuals over a period of years to get the perch over fishing abuse by commercial fishermen stopped. Constant pressure on ODNR as well as State Representatives made it happen.

Complaining on OGF will not get the job done.


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## Lundfish

lunker23 said:


> So the question is, what are you going to do to help find a solution? We need more people like you to take a stand! I applaud you for posting this as hopefully it'll bring more attention to what's going on.
> Most people will use the resources we have (rivers, lakes, ponds, etc.) and will do nothing to help with the preservation (river clean ups, not throwing garbage on the ground or in the water, etc), but when these resources are no longer available, those same people are the first to whine and complain.
> I don't know, at times I have to shake my head at some of the things I witness on the rivers and lake.


I don't know what to actually do besides make this post and contact the metropark.

It looks to me like the metroparks are turning a blind eye to this as well. Since the post was almost defending the fact that the antifreeze is going into the river by stating that it's 'non toxic.' I can't say that for 100% certainty though. 

However since this has been a problem for such a long time it sure seems that way.


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## Lundfish

Shortdrift said:


> As Lunker 23 said, get involved. It took a number of individuals over a period of years to get the perch over fishing abuse by commercial fishermen stopped. Constant pressure on ODNR as well as State Representatives made it happen.
> 
> Complaining on OGF will not get the job done.


I love holier than thou posts like this.


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## Shortdrift

Lundfish said:


> I love holier than thou posts like this.


In response to your self centered response, be advised that I, as well as many other sportsman put in the time to aid in getting the commercial perch over fishing resolved. This included trips to Columbus hearings as well as letters to responsible individuals. This has had a result in providing the current excellent perch fishing that most sportsman, you included, enjoy today.


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## lunker23

Lundfish....... If you want to get involved, I can forward our next meeting date for the Trout Unlimited Emerald Necklace chapter. We meet monthly at the Nature Center and sometimes on the water (pending the weather).
Let me know....


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## ChromeCollector

lunker23 said:


> Lundfish....... If you want to get involved, I can forward our next meeting date for the Trout Unlimited Emerald Necklace chapter. We meet monthly at the Nature Center and sometimes on the water (pending the weather).
> Let me know....


I'd like to know. I'm not a member of any conservation groups, but every time i go out I bring a garbage bag and pick up as much litter as I can on my way back to the car. May be an opportunity for me to help contribute a little more.


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## MadMax1

Perhaps water samples can be taken in that brookpark / 480 stretch near the airport at peak times when the de-icer is being utilized. Then they can be analyzed. OSU was pretty involved with the creel surveys. In addition, OSU is a big agricultural school, perhaps they'd be willing to get involved?


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## RBud1080

A friend of mine asked me to chime in on this thread, as I am both a avid steelhead fisherman and a commercial airline pilot that has operated out of CLE Hopkins for the better part of the last 10 years...

The smell you notice is de-ice/anti-ice fluid draining into the river. They do have a special 'de-ice pad' where the airplanes are sprayed down, and the excess fluid collects in special drains on the pad where it is recycled. Fact, and a good thing. But here's how de-ice/anti/-ice works...

When an airplane has frost or snow on it, that has to be removed. They spray a Type 1 fluid known as DOW UCAR PG, it could be a slight variation of this at hopkins, but its something vary similar. This cleans the airplane. Then if it is actively snowing or some other kind of freezing precip, they have to treat the airplane with a anti-ice Type 4 fluid which I think CLE uses DOW UCAR Flightguard AD-49. This fluid gets the airplane from the deice pad to the runway and prevents snow from accumulating and the aircraft's critical surfaces. The problem is that it is designed with a viscosity that sticks the the wing (its kind of gooy) until the airplane reaches a certain speed close to rotation, then the fluid runs off the wings and the airplane lifts off mostly clean of the fluid. Although the de-ice pad collects fuild at the time of spraying, alot of the fuild comes off the airplane as it is taxing out and on the takeoff roll. Unfortunately some of this will end up in our rivers and streams. You will especially notice it down near Abrams Creek after a big snow when lots of airplanes are treated.

Now the debate weather this is toxic or not is another discussion in which I really can't answer. 

The bad news is that nothing can or will be done of this. Steelhead fisherman are not going to shut CLE Hopkins down from operating in winter weather operations, its just an unfortunate fact. And CLE is doing everything it can to stop excessive fluids from draining into the system, but as per my explanation above, there is no way to prevent it. Most airports around the country do not have a special de-ice pad designed to collect and recycle fluids.


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## lunker23

Then we march and block the runways like those morons in downtown Cleveland! LOL


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## nooffseason

Thank you, Ryan, for bringing some facts and details to this thread. That all made a lot of sense. Sounds like CLE has put in fluid collection measures above and beyond most other airports, the rest of the runoff is a cost of doing business I guess.... 

Shortdrift, your efforts with the govt on perch harvests are much respected and appreciated, don't let the ignorant post above get to ya


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## Lundfish

Thank you for clarifying the issue here at the airport with the antifreeze. It's great that they are doing more than other airports but it's clear that it's not enough.

I would love to attend a TU meeting as I was a member for a long time but am not any longer. There's a lot of things that TU does that I am not a fan of and therefore am no longer supporting it. That being said; if there is something that I could help with on this issue I would be happy to become involved.

Let's clarify for a minute about what Mr. Shortdrift said.

He blatantly called me out because I'm not doing what he did for the perch. I give him a gold star for what he did for the perch. I agree about it that commercial fisherman are taking way too much.

The attitude behind what he said is clearly high and mighty and that was my point. Perhaps if you look at it in a different manner then I wouldn't be perceived as the bad guy here. Especially since I'm the one who created this post. It wasn't just a 'complaining' session. It was actually meant to reveal the garbage going into the river...on the WWW.


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## lunker23

I'm sorry if I came off harsh in any way. I grew up with the Metroparks in my backyard and have always tried to help with conservation. People sometimes take for granted what we have and are the first to complain. This doesn't fly with me. 
I will get the information on the TU meeting. I'm going out on a limb here with saying the reason you no longer support them is because they bombard people with emails, mail, etc. for more donations. That drives me bonkers! Save the money spent on mailing stuff and put it to better use.


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## Cleveland Metroparks

Not sure who you sent an email to,


Lundfish said:


> Did you miss the fact that the Metroparks posted on this thread???
> 
> I also sent them an email with no response which is why I posted here.
> 
> Oh well.


Not sure who you sent an email to, but it wasn't me. As the Aquatic Biologist here I deal with this type of thing most commonly. As for dumping in the river, we were successful in investigating and eventual felony prosecution of one such crime in the river in 2012, which lead to $330K in fines. But that was cyanide, not propylene glycol (which is commonly found in food and cosmetics). For future reference my email is [email protected] and my personal anytime cell is (216) 701-7634. And I do mean anytime- I once got a call at midnight on a Sunday to ask about trout stocking 

Mike Durkalec


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## creekcrawler

lunker23 said:


> Is that a Jeep I see in your profile pix?


Yup. Parked in the crik behind the house.

As I said before, this has been going on for years. What RBud1080 said explains a lot.
I don't believe it's the Metroparks' responsibility as much as it is the EPA's.
The EPA seems to be pretty ineffective when it comes to the airport.
I think it was them that gave wide approval to expand some of the airport and destroy
some wetland areas on Abrams Creek years back too.


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## Steel Cranium

I was out Saturday morning until late morning in the horse ford area and didn't notice a greatly offensive smell. I did notice a bit of an odor but it smelled more like something from the North Olmsted plant outflow instead of the normal winter CLE runoff smell. The water was up a bit from Friday rainfall, so figured that they were increasing their flow as well. I remember the winter airport runoff being much worse in the 1970s through the early 2000s, where the river wouldn't fully freeze from the Abrams creek mouth to Mastic or so - even during the coldest periods. Have fished open water during single-digit temperature days in the 80s and 90s.

There was a river-friendly solution discussed before the pads and recycling technology was installed but was never implemented. Don't remember which entity (City of Cleveland, Airport, Airlines, etc.) killed it, but it looked like a very environment-friendly alternative. The PDF link has some interesting information about deicing in general.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...d-hopkins-international-airport-72359812.html

http://www.hatchmott.com/sites/dev.hatchmott.com/files/brochures/Aircraft_Deicing_w_0.pdf


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## Mosquito

mountainbikingrn said:


> I know the stench you guys are talking about! Fished it the past 2 winters and best description I have is rotting onions mixed with s&$t! When the river has the smell it almost burns your throat after a couple hours!


That smell description that you gave it, is like what comes from holding tanks. The rotten onion smell comes from grey tanks, especially. :/


mountainbikingrn said:


> I know the stench you guys are talking about! Fished it the past 2 winters and best description I have is rotting onions mixed with s&$t! When the river has the smell it almost burns your throat after a couple hours!


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## bdawg

creekcrawler said:


> Yup. Parked in the crik behind the house.
> 
> As I said before, this has been going on for years. What RBud1080 said explains a lot.
> I don't believe it's the Metroparks' responsibility as much as it is the EPA's.
> The EPA seems to be pretty ineffective when it comes to the airport.
> I think it was them that gave wide approval to expand some of the airport and destroy
> some wetland areas on Abrams Creek years back too.


Really, the EPA cannot stop a person/company from destroying any wetlands according to the current regulations. It's their method of balancing economic development with wetland protection. The regulations read that you can destroy up to 0.10 acres of low quality wetlands without any penalty. If you want to fill more than that, or it's a high quality wetland, you can, but you have to rebuild those wetlands somewhere in the drainage area. If you don't have the space on your property to re-create the wetlands, you can pay into a fund that goes to a conservation organization so they can buy land and rebuild the wetlands somewhere else in the drainage area. Buying the wetland credits is pricey, which discourage developers from doing it except for high economic value projects. Also, the EPA makes you rebuild 2-3 times the area of wetlands that you destroy. In this way, the state is slowly rebuilding Ohio's wetlands.

So, yes the EPA probably gave the airport approval to fill a lot of wetlands, but I'm sure the airport was forced to re-create some wetlands somewhere else that benefits Abram's creek or the Rocky River. The land was valuable enough to the airport that they paid the fee for the wetland credits. The airport can't just find another place to put the runway a mile down the road, they are constricted by their location. 

Not trying to criticize you personally Creekcrawler, just trying to clarify the regulations for everyone. 

The Metroparks are a good watchdog for the Rocky River. They have the EPA on speed dial if they find a problem. This river is a great resource in such and urban environment. 

I wonder if the airport could be made to add more drains to drain runoff from the runways back into the de-icing recycle chamber? If stuff is falling off the planes on takeoff, why not collect it and recycle it?


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## Whaler

Quit fooling around with the metro parks and call the EPA to determine where it is actually coming from. If they won't check it out call your congressman and raise hell. If it's coming from the airport that would be a federal problem anyway . I would think the FAA would have something to say about it.


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## bajuski

The city of Cleveland runs Cleveland Hopkins and they take glycol pollution very seriously. I was a commercial airline mechanic for 32 years and deiced many,many airplanes. Delta airlines was transporting a deicer unit from Cleveland to Detroit for servicing but the 5000 gallon truck tank was full and would overload the tractor trailer. They pulled the truck over a storm drain and opened up the 6 inch dump valve draining it right in the storm drain.
I couldn't believe it, I ran over and told him to close the valve now and he just gave a dirty look and told me to f*** off. I went into our maintenance shack and called the city and within 2 minutes a city car, police car and a firetruck was there. They made him stop immediately.I understand they got a real hefty fine over it. My boss wasn't happy with me for not being a good neighbor but I didn't care, you don't intentionally dump 5000 gallons of glycol into one of our best steelhead rivers.


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## Lundfish

bajuski said:


> The city of Cleveland runs Cleveland Hopkins and they take glycol pollution very seriously. I was a commercial airline mechanic for 32 years and deiced many,many airplanes. Delta airlines was transporting a deicer unit from Cleveland to Detroit for servicing but the 5000 gallon truck tank was full and would overload the tractor trailer. They pulled the truck over a storm drain and opened up the 6 inch dump valve draining it right in the storm drain.
> I couldn't believe it, I ran over and told him to close the valve now and he just gave a dirty look and told me to f*** off. I went into our maintenance shack and called the city and within 2 minutes a city car, police car and a firetruck was there. They made him stop immediately.I understand they got a real hefty fine over it. My boss wasn't happy with me for not being a good neighbor but I didn't care, you don't intentionally dump 5000 gallons of glycol into one of our best steelhead rivers.


When was this?


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## bajuski

Lundfish said:


> When was this?


That was a long time ago lundfish, 12 years at least, maybe more, I've retired since. This occurred at the cargo pad, not the terminal. It was about the time they made us push back from the gates and deice in designated areas so they could recover the glycol.
They must monitor the outflow from the airport drains, every now and then the city would come around and stick probes into drains to find who is dumping whatever they're looking for.


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## c. j. stone

bdawg said:


> Really, the EPA cannot stop a person/company from destroying any wetlands according to the current regulations. It's their method of balancing economic development with wetland protection. The regulations read that you can destroy up to 0.10 acres of low quality wetlands without any penalty. If you want to fill more than that, or it's a high quality wetland, you can, but you have to rebuild those wetlands somewhere in the drainage area. If you don't have the space on your property to re-create the wetlands, you can pay into a fund that goes to a conservation organization so they can buy land and rebuild the wetlands somewhere else in the drainage area. Buying the wetland credits is pricey, which discourage developers from doing it except for high economic value projects. Also, the EPA makes you rebuild 2-3 times the area of wetlands that you destroy. In this way, the state is slowly rebuilding Ohio's wetlands.
> 
> So, yes the EPA probably gave the airport approval to fill a lot of wetlands, but I'm sure the airport was forced to re-create some wetlands somewhere else that benefits Abram's creek or the Rocky River. The land was valuable enough to the airport that they paid the fee for the wetland credits. The airport can't just find another place to put the runway a mile down the road, they are constricted by their location.
> Not trying to criticize you personally Creekcrawler, just trying to clarify the regulations for everyone.
> The Metroparks are a good watchdog for the Rocky River. They have the EPA on speed dial if they find a problem. This river is a great resource in such and urban environment.
> I wonder if the airport could be made to add more drains to drain runoff from the runways back into the de-icing recycle chamber? If stuff is falling off the planes on takeoff, why not collect it and recycle it?


Not to jack this thread, you 'sound' like a knowledgable person but I have one question. When did the Fed Govt(Army Corp of Engineers) give up authority over wetlands(any/everywhere) to the EPA(assuming State EPA?) and allow them to decide when/what/where can be filled or used for collection of chemicals? When Goodyear wanted to dredge Wingfoot Lake several years ago(prior to selling the park it to the State), they wanted to use surrounding lowlands(deemed "Wetlands") to dump the sediment, thereby filling these lower surrounding areas. After much review, eventually it came down to the ACE to have final approval-and they said "absolutely not"!! Has this changed, and when? ps-I was involved in this "potential" project and what transpired is stated exactly as it happened.)


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## jjyohe

So with all this "deicing pollution" does the Rocky ever freeze over?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bdawg

c. j. stone said:


> Not to jack this thread, you 'sound' like a knowledgable person but I have one question. When did the Fed Govt(Army Corp of Engineers) give up authority over wetlands(any/everywhere) to the EPA(assuming State EPA?) and allow them to decide when/what/where can be filled or used for collection of chemicals? When Goodyear wanted to dredge Wingfoot Lake several years ago(prior to selling the park it to the State), they wanted to use surrounding lowlands(deemed "Wetlands") to dump the sediment, thereby filling these lower surrounding areas. After much review, eventually it came down to the ACE to have final approval-and they said "absolutely not"!! Has this changed, and when? ps-I was involved in this "potential" project and what transpired is stated exactly as it happened.)


CJ, you caught me on that one. I am somewhat knowledgeable on this subject, but would not say I am an expert. I should have said the Army Corps instead of the EPA. Though, the State/Fed EPA does have a hand in these approvals to some degree, depending on the situation. I believe if the stream is a special high quality stream, a separate approval is required from the EPA. Also, if the wetlands are isolated, not connected to a stream or lake, they are regulated by the EPA only. Either way, the regulations are set up by a government entity to balance wetland/stream protection and economic development.


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## KTkiff

jjyohe said:


> So with all this "deicing pollution" does the Rocky ever freeze over?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It still does. There used to be stretches about 10 years ago that stayed open longer.


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## Lundfish

I've been back to the river a few times since this thread. Each and every time, including today, it has a major stench. If I lived in the towns that are getting water from that river I wouldn't be happy. It seems that everyone is pretty much immune to the smell...as I cannot believe this hasn't been mentioned before.

On the bright side; maybe the glycol stink actually helps the stockers return back the river they were dumped in. Maybe the DNR picks a stocking date when they know the airport is going to polluting the river with extra glycol love.

What a joke.


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## lunker23

What have you done since 1/11/2016 when you first posted this? Have you reached out to anybody? Have you done any research? Etc...


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