# Seep



## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

We have an issue with a small seep from our club pond. This seep is within the area of the root ball of a pine tree. These are three trees about 12-14 inches in diameter and sit about 30 feet from the edge of the pond. beyond them there is a gravel parking area that is below water level and then the hill slopes off. On one side of one tree the ground is soggy, when you get next to the gravel parking area there is a small amount of water draining off. The seep was there last year and is slightly worse this year. It seems that when the pond is low, say about 12 inches, the seep stops. 

Cutting down the trees and excavating the roots is not an option. The members do not want trees cut down and excavation would reduce the water level too far. Plus the expense is too high.

But I think I have a solution. This summer when the pond is at its low point we would rent a 6 inch trencher, a heavy ride on type. I would cut a 4 foot deep trench between the trees and the pond edge, favoring the pond side. Then I would take Ice Guard and stick two pieces together so it goes from the top to the bottom on the trench on the pond side. Then I would start mixing sacrete 5000, I calculate 50 bags #80 and fill the trench putting in re-bar every 4 feet. 

Since pine trees don't tend to throw out roots that are very deep I would think the trench would cut through all of them. The concrete and membrane would stop water flow. Even if the concrete cracks the membrane would still be effective. 

I know this is overkill, but I have a policy of doing overkill rather than risking repair or revision.


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## Taco (Jan 4, 2009)

Wow, that does sound like overkill. Not sure what ice guard is but I think I get the point, so it sounds like an overly complex and expensive core trench...that may or may not solve the problem. If the parking lot is lower than the pond isn't it reasonable to think the water will find its way around your solution? Is the water level dropping to the height of the parking lot?

Unfortunately I don't have a solution but will say that I would not attempt to remove the rootballs if its eventually decided to eliminate he trees. All you'll do is loosen more soil and exasperate the problem (assuming the trees are the problem).

Finally, if the trees are causing the problem, I can't imagine any member being able to come up with a good reason to keep them. It sounds like they should have never been planted there to begin with. If I thought any tree had the potential to compromise my pond it would be gone before it ever rooted. Few things worse for a pond than a nuisance tree.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

Taco said:


> Wow, that does sound like overkill. Not sure what ice guard is but I think I get the point, so it sounds like an overly complex and expensive core trench...that may or may not solve the problem. If the parking lot is lower than the pond isn't it reasonable to think the water will find its way around your solution? Is the water level dropping to the height of the parking lot?
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have a solution but will say that I would not attempt to remove the rootballs if its eventually decided to eliminate he trees. All you'll do is loosen more soil and exasperate the problem (assuming the trees are the problem).
> 
> Finally, if the trees are causing the problem, I can't imagine any member being able to come up with a good reason to keep them. It sounds like they should have never been planted there to begin with. If I thought any tree had the potential to compromise my pond it would be gone before it ever rooted. Few things worse for a pond than a nuisance tree.


They like their tree's, and they are some good looking ones. Getting these people to understand anything complex is a real chore. When I talk about pond issues, or operation of the club and administrative procedure I look out and see a bunch of dumbfounded stares. 

Ice Guard is the rubber membrane that you put along the edge of a roof before you shingle it. It is rubber about 3/16" thick. 

Actually I could do it for under 1000. Pine roots are shallow so a 4' deep trench would cut all of them.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Like I've mentioned before, maybe its' time you move on. You continually talk as if no one else there is on your level. Over and over, you keep trying to spend large amounts of someone elses money, and then you get mad when no one else agrees that it's worth it. Again, what you're wanting them to do is major overkill. I'm sure if it was your checkbook you'd think of a more simple method. Maybe they keep rejecting your ideas because they're hoping you'll eventually "take your ball and go home". It doesn't take long for people to get sick of someone talking down to them.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

M.Magis said:


> Like I've mentioned before, maybe its' time you move on. You continually talk as if no one else there is on your level. Over and over, you keep trying to spend large amounts of someone elses money, and then you get mad when no one else agrees that it's worth it. Again, what you're wanting them to do is major overkill. I'm sure if it was your checkbook you'd think of a more simple method. Maybe they keep rejecting your ideas because they're hoping you'll eventually "take your ball and go home". It doesn't take long for people to get sick of someone talking down to them.


Well, I put one post up in 8 months and you go off like that. Hmm, so what would your solution be sir, just give me a hint.

And by the way, If my club didn't want me to stick around, if they wanted me to "Take my ball and go home" why then have I been elected as an executive officer? Why would they say, "We want you as a trustee"? 

Or could it be that M.Magis is just talking like an ignorant ass?


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

You sure seem to have a way of making friends. Hear the crickets? Good luck.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

Now that the spitting match is over, maybe we can be constructive here. I need advise.

The cost of what I'm thinking about is about $800. (which I am just thinking about, postulating, which has not been presented to the club, which may not be the best solution, which I know is nuking the issue, which is why I'm asking. If I knew it was the best solution I wouldn't be asking) 

So, if I try and seal the pond, through the water, I'm fishing for the spot. It would seem to me that the root, still growing, would eventually penetrate again and then I'm back to square one. Is that correct or not?

If we simply cut the tree down and seal what is there now then as the tree roots rot I would think we are open to chasing leaks for years. Is that not correct?

If we excavate the roots then that would require me to lower the pond depth to about 4 feet. The water would have to stay at that level until late fall when the rains come. I do not have a water source I can use to refill the pond. There is a creek on the property but it often runs very slow and is full of very foul water. Often it has brown foam on it from leaking septic tanks up stream. Plus the cost of hiring a company to excavate the roots, then refill and re-compact the bank would be prohibitive. It would be far more than $800. 

Now, as far as spending their money, this is a club that voted to spend $7500 to put metal roofs on two garages. That when they could have simply done an overlay for under $1000. 13 SQ. that myself and another member could have put on in a day. They chose the metal because they were told that it would last forever, not taking into account that we have the skills to put the overlay on ourselves AND that the overlay would last long enough that 35-40% of them will be dead. Oh well.

So, what are the viable solutions? I need ideas.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I saw your post earlier Garryc but was waiting for it to develop a bit. 

Ice guard is not meant for below grade and will decay over time. Foundation membrane material would be much better suited and is pretty much for this purpose and would be pretty simple to install in a trench as you were planning the ice guard. There's lots of stuff from basically rubber to fairly solid like Platon (no way roots could get through platon but sealing between sections may be a challenge...maybe silicone and self tapping screws would be easy enough though.)

Second, a screen of copper hardware cloth/mesh will highly discourage the roots. To the point they shouldn't be a problem anyway. 

So basically dig a trench, sprinkle in a thin layer of bentonite in the bottom (get the clay kitty litter at Wally World), lay out some 1x2 furring strips, lay the the foundation membrane over it and staple to the strips, flip it over, attach the copper mesh to the opposite side of the strips, slip it into the trench, sprinkle some more bentonite around the edges then backfill. The point of the furring strips is to keep it erect during backfilling.

Alternately to the coppermesh, you could bury pvc tubes spaced a few feet apart in the trench with holes drilled in them to deliver copper sulfate to the soils to prevent root growth. This will work but requires periodic refilling.

Really, I think the roots would have a very difficult time getting past the foundation membrane.

Pond liner material is another option. The subgrade (no sun stuff) is pretty reasonable and comes in long pieces.

Best of luck.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I saw your post earlier Garryc but was waiting for it to develop a bit.
> 
> Ice guard is not meant for below grade and will decay over time. Foundation membrane material would be much better suited and is pretty much for this purpose and would be pretty simple to install in a trench as you were planning the ice guard. There's lots of stuff from basically rubber to fairly solid like Platon (no way roots could get through platon but sealing between sections may be a challenge...maybe silicone and self tapping screws would be easy enough though.)
> 
> ...


 No concrete then. I don't know where to get copper mesh or the cost, I imagine it would be cheaper than 136 bags of sacrete 5000. As far as the pipe, say every two feet and full depth, would 3/4 inch work?


So how deep to go with pine roots? 4 feet is over kill maybe, how deep would you go? 

No matter how deep the membrane goes there is nothing stopping me from using a 1" steel pipe and installing the pipes much deeper. Just drive it as deep as I want and pull it out, then put in the PVC pipe. Kind of like the application tubes for termites


Thanks man


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm not sure Gary I've never used copper sulfate for this purpose. Alro is the biggest non ferrous metal dealer I'm aware of here in Ohio, they may have the copper but it'll no doubt be pricey.. My fear with the trench method is you won't get deep enough to stop the leak as you'll be limited by the trencher depth and not get into good clay or make a good seal..

Another option would be sheet piling. It takes equipment to drive it in but you can go as deep as needed, roots won't grow though it. This is probably the best option I can think of but may be a little beyond DIY.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

Update

The water is up and the seep is going strong. The water this year is higher than it has been in the past because I raised it a bit. I followed the edge of the pond near the tree and I noted a small notch in the bank. I stomped my foot in the bank about a foot from the notch, it gave way. The notch makes me think that maybe a drain pipe was there at one time in the past, maybe it wasn't properly filled. 

So what I'm going to try is to dig that notch out and back 18 inches into the bank, following it. Then I'm going to mix clay and cat litter and compact it in.

Sound like a plan?

Who wants to bet I find an old pipe, or fragments? If this is it that is damn cheap, used cat litter and some clay dirt.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2006)

Sounds like a good plan Gary....and a lot cheaper.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Sounds like a good plan Gary....and a lot cheaper.



I've got nothing to loose in the try anyway.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

garryc said:


> Update
> 
> The water is up and the seep is going strong. The water this year is higher than it has been in the past because I raised it a bit. I followed the edge of the pond near the tree and I noted a small notch in the bank. I stomped my foot in the bank about a foot from the notch, it gave way. The notch makes me think that maybe a drain pipe was there at one time in the past, maybe it wasn't properly filled.
> 
> ...


Are the muskrats eating away at the bank at all??? Just curious. Tom


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

Saugeye Tom said:


> Are the muskrats eating away at the bank at all??? Just curious. Tom



I've never seen any on that side, not saying there aren't any. Just never see them. I did see one last fall, going under a tree root on the opposite side.


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## Saugeye Tom (Oct 6, 2010)

We had a probpem with the seep at our club years ago and found out the rats had tunneled into the Dam. What a pain to fix.


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## garryc (Jan 21, 2006)

Saugeye Tom said:


> We had a probpem with the seep at our club years ago and found out the rats had tunneled into the Dam. What a pain to fix.



I confirmed what I now believe with an older member of the club. It was where a pipe had been, in fact it may still be under there. So, easy fix as soon as the water goes down a bit.

I was sweating that one. I thought we had a major issue.


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