# Need help on Muzz ?



## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Hey guys Im taking a look at 2 guns. Im really leaning towards a TC Black Diamond but I have seen a traditions that catches my eye as well. Also while looking at the TC I noticed that they had it in blued and stainless. For those of you who do muzz hunt which do you prefer and why. This goes for brand name and the blued/stain ? Thanks


 Mike


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## "J" (Apr 10, 2004)

I don't own one but T/C does make a good product, just make sure that what ever you buy that it is made in the US. All the US made guns make the grade as far as testing, imports aren't as tough on them as US companies. I own a Knight dollar for dollar the best made gun and very accurate.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Hi Mikie,

As you know I am an avid muzzleloader hunter. I love playing with different loads a bullets to find the most accurate and effective deer hunting loads

I just recently ordered a new savage to go with my two Knight rifles. I am very curious to see how these guns compare. I love my knights, but hate cleaning them.

I found some new bullets last year that performed very well on deer and maintained the highest downrange energy of any bullet I've found to date by far. It has to do with the ballistic coeficient qualities of the bullet. A bullet of different design, but the same weight, fired from the same gun, with the same powder charge, can inpact 4" lower at 200 yds and have a bunch less ft pds of retained energy. As an example, one of my firends shots a Thompson Omega (A very, very, nice gun) and was shooting a 250 gr. Hornady XPT with 130 grains of Triple 7. I was shooting one of my Knights with a 260 gr. Dead Center bullet, with 110 gr. of triple 7. He was shooting a 10 grain lighter bullet and 20 grains more powder and dropping 4" more at 200 yds than I was. The only reason is the BC's of the bullets we were shooting.

Check out this link. There is a lot of good reading on muzzleloaders and which ones to purchase and why. There's also good bullet and BC information listed.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

There is some concern over some muzzleloader manufacturers that use spanish barrels, I don't really know if that is a valid concern for sure, you'll need to decide that for yourself.

I do know that if you stay with Thompson, and Knight, that you are buying a good and safe gun.

I still want to get together and shoot this fall.

happy shopping,
Kim


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Kim,

Thanks I always appriciate the imput and I know how much you are into muzz hunting so I was hoping you'd chime in. I have never fired a knight but as you know the 50 cal I got rid of was a precussion by TC and I was very very pleased with it. I want to purchace a muzz before deer gun season as I'd like to start hunting with one for both gun and obviously muzz season. J I also appricate the imput I may have to get out and shoot a couple of knights maybe its a gun worth looking into. Now for the other important ? I had.

Is there any differences like cleaning and considerations I should think of when looking at a blued or ss model? The TC kit which is blued I seen for 249 which is an awsome price for a TC. I have also seen just the gun in SS for 299 or just about that. I havent looked at much for knights but I'll check out the site you provided. So I will go with the TC unless I see a knight that catches my eye. I am very happy to step up to the 209 primer though. Lets get a date togeather sometime early or mid Nov. Before regular gun season comes if possible we could figure out who's all interested in comming and try and set a mutual place for everyone


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Mike,

Guns are personal preference, they will all kill a deer, one can't kill a deer any deader than another, how many degrees of dead are there anyway  

I have a big personal preference for SS over blued. The care required to keep them clean and rust free is reduced with SS. The cleaning is the same for either, except you can wait a little longer in bad weather with SS. If I hunt in the rain with my blued gun, I take it apart and clean it that night. SS will rust! it just delays the process because of less carbon content in the steel. A blued gun is just as good as a stainless gun if you do your part of cleaning SOON after each use. You really need to check your accuracy with a clean barrel vesus a fouled barrel. Some guns can have 6" of more deviation at 100 yds with a clean barrel. You may need to fire a fouling shot prior to hunting which makes timely cleaning even more important

Before you purchase a gun, get it in your hands and find out how it comes apart for cleaning. My compalint on my Knights is that I have to take everything apart to clean them. My buddys Omega is sweet to clean, very simple.

The introduction of Triple 7 also helps in the cleaning process. All of the sulfer is removed and it cleans with just water. It is also a hotter powder than Pyrodex. READ THE WARNINGS ON THE CAN CAREFULLY.


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Thanks Kim I needed to know about the ss. Besides looking a little nicer if there were advantages to it lol.


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Okay Kim here are a few that Im looking at. 

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...arClassCode=3&hvarSubCode=1&hvarTarget=browse


http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...arClassCode=3&hvarSubCode=1&hvarTarget=browse

Im also looking of course at the Black diamond but in SS and the camo stock which runs a little under 300. 

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...arClassCode=3&hvarSubCode=1&hvarTarget=browse


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Mike all of those guns would work well.

Both Thompsons offer a longer barrel. The Omega is 28" the BD XR is 26". There is also a standard BD that offers a 22-1/2" This does allow for better burning of big loads of slow burning powder. It's not a big difference but it exists.

The Omega is by far the easiest to clean. It drop block design makes it very easy to access the breech plug for removal and cleaning. It also seals the blow back the best of all three, keeping powder smoke off of your scope if you elect to put one on it.

The Knight is a very good gun, the bolt and primer "disc" design is pretty good. You do need the plastic "disc's with this gun but they are readily available at most stores and inexpensive.This gun, as with my Knights will require quite a bit, yet very simple, disassembly to clean. The Knight has a double safety system that is second to none, by far the safest muzzleloader as far as accidental discharge goes. Knight uses Green Mountain barrels, very nice.

I don't know how the Black Diamond come apart for cleaning. I would go to thier website and determine that first. I just looked. The tear down for cleaning similar to the Knight, it's not too bad.

Depending on how the BD comes apart, any of these guns would work very well for you for a long, long, time. I would however rate the Omega and the Knight above the BD, but Thompso rates thier Omega above the BD also.


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## truck (Apr 12, 2004)

One thing I will add.TC has a lifetime warranty.Most will never use it,I bought a Hawken back in the late 70's after about 15 yrs of alot of shooting the nipple started blowing out with every shot.I took it to a gunsmith to get repaired,still did it after about 50 shots.At this time I was Pi$$ed,so without even cleaning it put it in a corner and did not even touch it for a couple years.I decided to mz load hunt again so called TC to buy a new barrel,They said send it to us and we will fix it,yea right.I think the barrel was rusted closed.3 weeks later a new barrel came in the mail free of charge.I now have an oncore.Good luck on your new gun.Daryl


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Truck... Good to know. I didnt know if they stood by thier warranty or not but I always have more repsect for companies who stand by thier product!


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## ski (May 13, 2004)

I have a black diamond SS that i love. I have used it two years and had great results, except for the time I did not clean it. Rust! Rust! Rust!! My fault though. It is so easy to completely disassemble and clean, there is no excuse. I actually enjoy taking it apart after every hunt. I have a 3-9 power scope set up with see through rings. 
I also agree with Lundy and truck's remarks about the Black Diamond. I had a problem with the safety and trigger and they replaced it no charge.
I like my BD SS so much I use it in Pennsylvania for rifle season.


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## Zfish (Apr 5, 2004)

Ski.... Thanks for the reply That helps quite a bit. As least right now TC is still my top choice.


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