# Male Green Sunfish x Female Bluegill



## Bluegill_Guru (Mar 10, 2012)

Went panfishing earlier today at a local pond, and was able to borrow a camera, so I felt like I should share some fish for change. The bite was there, but you had to work for it, and at the end of the day the final tally was 17 'Gills, and 3 Green Sunfish hybrids. Although I was fishing for panfish, that didn't stop 19 largemouths (all under 12") and 2 channel cats from ending up on my line as well. Nothing fantastic, but a lot of fun. All fish were caught on 1/32 - 1/24oz. rooster tails, and Bitsy Pond Minnow crankbaits; and were released with smiles on their faces.

This male Green Sunfish x female Bluegill hybrid was the highlight of my day. Such a beautiful fish, and what a mouth on that beast. 










This cat stopped my crankbait dead in its tracks on my ultralight setup. I love bonus fish.










The second cat had this pitiful look on its face. How could you not be empathic?


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## Bass-Chad (Mar 9, 2012)

Sounds like a great day! Got to love when you get them "bonus" fish too lol. That hybrid....damn such a great coloration on that fish I haven't seen a good hybrid in a LONG time.


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## buckzye11 (Jul 16, 2009)

Thats one cool fish! I definatlly agree with the hybrid on that one, but how do you determine that it was a female gill and male green hybrid?
I belive green sunfish are growing in population in the lakes i fish, i used to only catch a few a year, now theres a few a trip it seems. It may be because i fish alot more moving lures now and just their aggresive nature... they don't have that big mouth for nothing. Nice catches Guru!


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

That big ol mouth and there aggressiveness makes them like an angry Bass with "little mans desease!" LoL. Great colors too...

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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

THANKS for the pic GURU!

THAT's the little mini eating MONSTER that we've been picking up at Skeeter,,, when we are float fishing BIG fatheads for crappies.
We had a feeling that it was some kind of cross,,,, we just guessed that the local gills had a 'THING'  for some rock bass!

Those eyes, that huge mouth AND that attitude say ROCKBASS!
IF THEY'RE HYBRIDS, HOW BIG DO THEY GET,,, WHERE'D THEY COME FROM?

They sure have us chomping on the bit for red-eyes up Erie! 5 more degrees


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## Huz-yak (Jun 3, 2011)

For whatever reason, only the male green can fertilize the female gill's eggs and not the other way. People often stock them in ponds because they are sterile (like most hybrids) and will not overpopulate. They are also extremely aggressive which makes them easy to catch and fun to fight. I only ever caught one before and it took my bait before it hit the surface (well... I will say "as it hit the surface" sounds more realistic)


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Huz-yak said:


> For whatever reason, only the male green can fertilize the female gill's eggs and not the other way.


Actually, the hybrid produced and sold through hatcheries is created by breeding male bluegill and female green sunfish. I can&#8217;t say if the other way isn&#8217;t possible, but it isn&#8217;t done commercially for whatever reason. The hybrids aren't sterile, but they have reduced fertility. Personally, I&#8217;d just call it a green sunfish. Or bait.


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## Huz-yak (Jun 3, 2011)

I knew it was one or the other !!


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## exide9922 (Aug 9, 2010)

caught about 40 or so gills this size at my father in laws, neighbors pond. the one tried to eat a shad rap!


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

M.Magis said:


> Actually, the hybrid produced and sold through hatcheries is created by breeding male bluegill and female green sunfish. I cant say if the other way isnt possible, but it isnt done commercially for whatever reason. The hybrids aren't sterile, but they have reduced fertility. Personally, Id just call it a green sunfish. Or bait.



HUMMMMM,
Ya, Ok, Thanks,,, BUT that just doesn't tell me how they got that BUCKET for a mouth and that beedy little eye??? 

Gotta be a 'horny' red-eyed-rock-bass around somewhere! 

At least, they're dar n good eat'n.


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Doboy said:


> BUT that just doesn't tell me how they got that BUCKET for a mouth and that beedy little eye???
> 
> Gotta be a 'horny' red-eyed-rock-bass around somewhere!


The color of that fish just looks like a plain old, though nicely colored, green sunfish. I dont really know what tells anyone its a hybrid, but Im sure no expert.


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## fishinnick (Feb 19, 2011)

Nice!! Not to start an argument or anything, but I honestly think that is a warmouth, but warmouths don't usually have blue on them. Spawning colors? It just doesn't look like a green sunfish.

Usually the ODNR has pretty crapy pics on there species page, but the green sunfish one is actually pretty good.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/spe...ideIndex/greensunfish/tabid/6655/Default.aspx

exide9922's first fish is definitely a green sunfish/bluegill hybrid though. Second pic just a pure bluegill.


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## exide9922 (Aug 9, 2010)

Hey Bluegill Guru, do you find that those Bitsy pond minnows, half of them dont run right? I've used them before, some run good, some dont


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## Bluegill_Guru (Mar 10, 2012)

exide9922 said:


> Hey Bluegill Guru, do you find that those Bitsy pond minnows, half of them dont run right? I've used them before, some run good, some dont


Let me answer this and I can get to the "meat and taters" of this thread --- the hybrid. Exide, I can attest that some Bitsy Pond Minnows seem to run different, but it doesn't seem to make much a difference in my experience. I found something strange though with one of my new ones I just ordered, the Firetiger one sinks, it doesn't float like all the others.  What makes it so strange is that Bitsy Pond Minnows only come in a floating model, and that was why I loved them so much, since the only smaller panfish crank I have found (Yo-Zuri Snap Beans) sinks. And since I mostly fish weedy ponds, I don't need a crankbait that dredges the bottom on each cast. But who knows, maybe I am lucky and own the only sinking model "made". 
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I knew that hybrid would bring a few knowledgeable panfishers to this thread for an in-depth discussion. I am no expert on hybrids by any means, but after much research in trying to determine exactly the parentage of that hybrid my best guess is a male Green x female 'Gill. Here is why.

Already mentioned above is that hatcheries cross male 'Gills with female Greens for pond stocking. This is their "ideal cross-species" for what they want the fish for. These hybrids all look like bluegills that are a little "different" than purebred ones, adopting the larger mouth and some coloration from the Greenies.

Now, back in the day these hatcheries cross-bred Greens and 'Gills in various combinations to find out, among other things, the reproduction rate of the resulting hybrids to find out what cross-species is best for pond stocking, specifically for managing a pond for largemouth fishing. They cross-bred species using male Greens x female Blues, as well as female Greens x male Blues, as well as various combinations with other sunfish.

The result was that the female Green x male Bluegill was the "best choice" as far as hybrids in regards to growth rates and reproductive output. Some of their cross-bred combos had very low reproductive rates and thus were of "no value" to them in the realm of fish stocking. 

Now, in the wild, these sunfish can, and do cross-breed, albeit some combos are much more rare than others, but a male Green x female Blue is certainly possible. The pond that I caught the hybrid in is one that I have fished since a child and probably fished more than any other body of water in my life. The pond is full of bluegills, green sunfish, and pumpkinseeds, but no rock bass or warmouth. Last week I caught a purebred Green from this pond that looks like what you expect from a Green sunfish, especially in coloring. 

How do I figure it is a male Green x female Bluegill? Without genetic testing equipment all we have to go on is common sense and what we know. Here is what we know about hybrid bluegill (female Green x male Blue), they all look like bluegill in shape with a larger mouth and some bonus colors attributed to the Green. I'm no geneticist, but I ask myself, how can the hybrid 'Gills all look like bluegills in shape, rather than green sunfish in shape? Perhaps the answer is with the male parent? And if so, then I would assume that a male Green x female Bluegill just may have the body shape of a Green sunfish, rather than a Bluegill.

The "hybrid" I caught and pictured in this thread doesn't (in my opinion) have all the "tells" of a 100% Green sunfish. If it is a cross, then it could of only crossed with either the Bluegill or the Pumpkinseed in the pond. And since the Pumpkinseed in this pond are so few are far between, chances are it is a cross between a 'Gill, thus why I think it is, what I said it was. Although I must admit that I do see the potential in the coloring for it to be a Green x Pumpkinseed hybrid, but I doubt I will ever know for sure.

In closing, it was fun to be able to go fishing and finally share some pictures with you guys.


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## sherman51 (Apr 12, 2011)

all i know is a friend stocked some hybrid bluegills in his pond. now after a few years it is full of green sunfish. and he never had green sunfish untill he stocked the hybrids in his pond.
sherman


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## Bluegill_Guru (Mar 10, 2012)

sherman51 said:


> all i know is a friend stocked some hybrid bluegills in his pond. now after a few years it is full of green sunfish. and he never had green sunfish untill he stocked the hybrids in his pond.
> sherman


That brings up an interesting point Sherman. Only two possible ways this could happen: green sunfish eggs entering the pond via the feet or fecal matter of waterfowl; or the hybrids through continual reproduction have bred themselves back into a mostly Green Sunfish genetic pool, or at least a portion of the pond's sunfish genetic pool, enough to produce a Green sunfish that doesn't appear to be a hybrid, although it may contain a small percentage of bluegill genes.

Of course someone could of dropped some purebred Greens in your friend's pond, but that is the x-factor.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

M.Magis said:


> The color of that fish just looks like a plain old, though nicely colored, green sunfish. I dont really know what tells anyone its a hybrid, but Im sure no expert.


I agree Magis but the guy that posted it is "Bluegill_Guru" so it has to count for something right?"

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## fishinnick (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, I'm not really good on all this hybrid stuff, but it looks to me if it is a hybrid then it might be a warmouth/pumpkinseed hybrid. But since you said there are very few pumpkinseeds in the pond and no warmouths then I don't know. I still don't see any green sunfish, or even bluegill in that fish. 

Caught these three fish at Mosquito Lake just today. The first one I'm almost sure it is a pure warmouth, the second one is definitely a warmouth, and the last one is a green sunfish. Mosquito Lake used to have more greens than warmouths it seemed, but this year it's the opposite.


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## Bluegill_Guru (Mar 10, 2012)

Thanks for the pics FishinNick. Warmouths have always been the hardest species for me to identify with utmost certainty, especially when there is hybridization going on. The second picture you posted seems to be clearly a Warmouth, if not full bred, thanks to the colors it has. The first fish you posted has a lot of features that resemble the hybrid I posted, but I am uncertain. The little bit of red on the ear flap in the first fish you posted seems to tell me that that fish has some longear sunfish genes.

True the pond I caught the hybrid in, as far as I know has no Warmouths, but no one can ever be 100% sure of that. The hardest aspect of identifying a sunfish species like these is the amount of generational cross-breeding that occurs. Some of these fish easily could have genes from more than two species of sunfish in their genetic pool, which makes it damn near impossible to know for sure.



Mr. A said:


> I agree Magis but the guy that posted it is "Bluegill_Guru" so it has to count for something right?"


Hahaha Thanks dude, I needed a good laugh.

Truth is, I don't consider myself a "guru" at all. I do aspire to become one thanks to my love of panfishing though. And via information hubs like OGF here, I have gained a lot of knowledge from people with more experience than myself. And if I can return the favor for some with less experience than I, then the cycle is complete. 

What is that old saying, "A smart man knows what he knows, but a wise man knows not only what he knows, but also what he does not know."

I created this thread mainly because I was not certain what the story behind that hybrid was, in the hopes someone else just might know how to identify it with specificity.


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## Cleveland Metroparks (Dec 14, 2005)

I agree with Nick that the fish in the original photo looks 100% warmouth to me. Very pretty fish indeed.


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## fishinnick (Feb 19, 2011)

Yeah that red on the ear got me thinking too. Maybe some pumpkinseed in him? As far as I know there are no longears in Mosquito, but I'm not sure. 

Green sunfish tend to hybridnize a lot with other sunfish as well, and it could be tricky sometimes to tell which two fish produced the hybrid. I have personally seen green sunfish/bluegill hybrids and green/pumpkinseed hybrids, but there could be more. I haven't really seen any fish that looked like warmouth hybrids but I'm sure there are. Isn't fishing great? Always learning...


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## fishinnick (Feb 19, 2011)

Question for the pros, why is it that sunfish hybrids are so common, but say wild tiger muskies or tiger trout are so rare in the wild? There's a bunch of streams I fish in PA that have both wild browns and brookies, but never any tigers. And just about every lake probably has at least a few sunfish hybrids.


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## Mr. A (Apr 23, 2012)

fishinnick said:


> Question for the pros, why is it that sunfish hybrids are so common, but say wild tiger muskies or tiger trout are so rare in the wild? There's a bunch of streams I fish in PA that have both wild browns and brookies, but never any tigers. And just about every lake probably has at least a few sunfish hybrids.


I'm confused by your post? Why would a Musky or Trout ever mate with a tiger? Not sure where you fish in PA but I am sure that wild tiger are not native to PA! Not sure what tigers have to do with fishing either?


(Please take this as a complete joke. Funny but not serious in the least!)


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## Bad Bub (Jan 17, 2006)

fishinnick said:


> Question for the pros, why is it that sunfish hybrids are so common, but say wild tiger muskies or tiger trout are so rare in the wild? There's a bunch of streams I fish in PA that have both wild browns and brookies, but never any tigers. And just about every lake probably has at least a few sunfish hybrids.


My best guess would be because the manner in which they spawn. Panfish trend to bed in clusters, with sometimes hundreds of beds jammed right up against each other. Other species tend to like some space between their beds, or their timing may be different. Just a guess, but that's how i've always looked at it.

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## Bluegill_Guru (Mar 10, 2012)

fishinnick said:


> Question for the pros, why is it that sunfish hybrids are so common, but say wild tiger muskies or tiger trout are so rare in the wild? There's a bunch of streams I fish in PA that have both wild browns and brookies, but never any tigers. And just about every lake probably has at least a few sunfish hybrids.


What could account for the greater number and thereby greater occurrence of sunfish hybrids compared to Tiger Musky and Tiger Trout, is the sheer greater number of sunfish compared to trout, pike, and muskies, as well as the sunfish's enormous egg output and reproductive rate.

Also, the sunfish are seen and encountered on a much greater frequency than trout, pike, or muskies, which probably makes the rare hybrids seem even more scarce.

Just a thought.


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## Cleveland Metroparks (Dec 14, 2005)

Bluegill_Guru said:


> What could account for the greater number and thereby greater occurrence of sunfish hybrids compared to Tiger Musky and Tiger Trout, is the sheer greater number of sunfish compared to trout, pike, and muskies, as well as the sunfish's enormous egg output and reproductive rate.
> 
> Also, the sunfish are seen and encountered on a much greater frequency than trout, pike, or muskies, which probably makes the rare hybrids seem even more scarce.
> 
> Just a thought.


Many centrarchids (sunfish family of fishes) spawn within the same timeframe, while pike spawn earlier than muskie (tiger muskie obviously being their hybrid)...making the chances of egg and sperm meeting up at the right time in the wild rare in that case.


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## mastercatman (Jan 30, 2005)

I agree with metroparks on his reasoning....let me elaborate!


The fish posted by guru originally is definitely a warmouth and not likely to be hybridized with anything. The fish posted by exide is most definitely a bluegillxgreen sunfish hybrid.

The reason that a warmouth is usually "just a warmouth" is because of their spawning behavior in contrast with the other centrarchids>(Bluegill, pumpkinseed, redear, warmouth, rockbass, green sunfish, orange spotted sunfish, longear sunfish, largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, spotted bass, black crappie, and white crappie all included) we all know as "sunfish". Warmouths, tend to nest in solitary locations away from other species, unless there is very limited spawning habitat available to them. Green sunfish, tend to nest in colonies in proximity to rock/wood debris and near the fringes of bluegill/redear colonies, they'll even use the bluegill/redear nests. The bluegill cross is very common with the green sunfish because neither of them are too particular with whom they breed with. Since their spawning requirements are very similar and happen at the same time, they are the most common hybrid. Less commonly, you'll find Redear"x"Green sunfish hybrids due to redears seeming to be less willing to do the deed with them, though they do occur in the right settings. Sunfish hybrids of all sorts have been documented, but most hybrids of any other combination are very unlikely in the wild.

Hybrids in any other fish species in general are not common. One other instance in Ohio would be sauger, walleye, and saugeye in the Ohio River which happens occasionally. This is due to time, temp, locations, and geography of spawning being different for most all species of fish. Tiger trout(brown trout"x"brook trout) and tiger muskies(northern pike"x"muskellunge) would not likely occur naturally because their time and temp differences. However, when fish are stocked outside their native range with species in the same genus with similar requirements for spawning, hybrids can and do occur (bull trout, brook trout, brown trout in Montana for example), though whether you could consider it natural would be debatable.

As far as hybrids go, the first generation cross will usually produce fast growing and aggressive offspring. Though fertility may be limited in some cases, successive generations may be produced and will appear much like the parent with the most dominant genotype. 

The bluegill"x"green sunfish hybrid has been popular for many years due to their fast growth, large size, and aggressive behavior. This hybrid in some cases can lead to a pond full of smallish green sunfish through successive generations. The green sunfish are more aggressive and have dominant genetic characteristics such as the larger mouth. Though the hybrids are fun to catch and eat while offering fast growth, I would never recommend anyone stock them (or greenies) for the reasons noted above. You'll be more rewarded by a well managed pond of bluegills, redears, largemouth bass, and channel cats when proper stocking and harvesting is practiced.

Sorry for the long post, but that should clear some things up!


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## Bluegill_Guru (Mar 10, 2012)

Thanks for the post and schooling MasterCatman. I'm glad you were able to clear up the genetics of the fish I originally posted. Damn Warmouth. hahaha They get me every time.


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## Andrew S (Jul 7, 2011)

fishinnick said:


> Question for the pros, why is it that sunfish hybrids are so common, but say wild tiger muskies or tiger trout are so rare in the wild? There's a bunch of streams I fish in PA that have both wild browns and brookies, but never any tigers. And just about every lake probably has at least a few sunfish hybrids.


A lot of species (of all kinds of things, not just fish) can produce viable offspring if the eggs are fertilized in a lab (or hatchery) but may not reproduce in the wild for a variety of reasons, e.g. they simply aren't attracted to each other. And this, in turn, may in some cases be due to what is called pre- zygotic reinforcement. Basically, if hybrids are generally worse off than each parent species, then via natural selection the two parent species evolve to avoid each other. But if the species are reasonably closely related, but never encounter each other in the wild, natural selection can't reinforce that "avoidance" behavior. I can't say whether this applies to the various species being discussed here since I don't know their biology well enough, but while I think your question is a really interesting one, I think the reasons for hybridization in the wild (or a lack thereof) probably has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. In other words, the answer that is best for one pair of species might not be best for another.


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