# Naturally Produced Bow???



## jojopro (Oct 9, 2007)

Sorry a little late on posting this. Last year on June 4, 2009 I was totally surprised to catch this little trout on a river in NE OH while targeting smallmouth bass. The trout was caught on a chunk of live night crawler in fast fairly shallow water. The trout was about 6" long and still had faint par spots along its side. When I hooked the fish I thought it was just another large shiner and I brought the fish in very quickly without allowing it to give any fight. I only very briefly handled the fish with a wet hand and released it unharmed after a few quick pictures. When released the fish darted off looking to be just fine. 

















The fins looked clean and crisp and the dorsal fin stuck up high and was not rounded down (which is uncharacteristic of hatchery produced fish).









I have caught small recently stocked smolts in the past that were larger than this trout (smolts were 8"-10") and they did not have the parr spots as this trout did. Considering all of these factors I believe that this was a naturally reproduced trout.

So what do you all think? Was this a naturally produced trout or a smaller stocked trout? Also what would be the likelihood that this little fish survived this past summer in the river to grow into a smolt? We did have a fairly mild summer, so hopefully that little fish and a few other naturally reproduced trout made it to smolts.

The craziest thing is that the very next day in the same spot I caught perhaps that same fish again. :shock: The trout caught the following day was the same size as the one pictured and also bit on a chunk of night crawler. 

John


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Thats a pretty little rainbow. Theres no way to tell for sure that I can think of. Maybe he found a nice cool spot to make it through the summer. If any of his fins were clipped or worn down it would be an indicator that he may have been a release from the trout farm but thats probably the only way you could tell. But I have seen proof of natural reproduction in streams where officially it was supposed to be impossible.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Too small for a stocked fish.
I've been in a small trib netting minnows, and in one pool almost half of the fish in the seine were little 2-3" steelies!
Surviving is another question though - they need cool water to make through the summer.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Kinda looks like the little pet I had a few years ago....


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

They can survive in some streams... this is a wild ohio fish... Dorsal is a dead give away an they fight like hell compaired to stocked fish. I've caught 1 an 2 year old parr in this stream an wild smolt when the parr turn an get ready to go to the lake...


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## MuskieJim (Apr 11, 2007)

Nick I remember taking that pic. That fish looked incredible!


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## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

since i dont know where u were fishing its hard to tell. i work at the casfh and stock the steelhead into the rivers, and have definately seen fish with parr marks. target size is 6 to 9 inches for them to go out, but i have seen 4 inch fish along with 10+ inchers. so this very well could be a stocked fish that did not leave the river right away, but im also not saying that it could not be a naturally reproduced fish also.


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

MuskieJim said:


> Nick I remember taking that pic. That fish looked incredible!


Jim, the one I caught with you was on video, not a still shot. I caught this fish about a week before you an I went out. The one I caught with you was that big bloated hen. I'll get about 10 or so wild adults in there a year. I caught one yesterday as a matter of fact, big spawned out male (hopefully passed his genes on again).


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## Gussmacker (Jun 12, 2006)

Just wondering - if the young fish pictured is the result of 2 Stocked Hatchery fish spawning in a NE Ohio River - is it Natural Reproduction?


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Gussmacker said:


> Just wondering - if the young fish pictured is the result of 2 Stocked Hatchery fish spawning in a NE Ohio River - is it Natural Reproduction?


Yes because there are no native rainbows , they were all stocked at some point.


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

Gussmacker said:


> Just wondering - if the young fish pictured is the result of 2 Stocked Hatchery fish spawning in a NE Ohio River - is it Natural Reproduction?


It could be two hatchery fish (most likely case) a hatchery fish an a wild fish, or two wild fish (most unlikely).


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## Gussmacker (Jun 12, 2006)

"no native rainbows , they were all stocked at some point"

This is why I asked the question - all the Steelhead in NE Ohio are Stocked Hatchery Fish or as evidence of the pictures are the result of spawing Stocked Hatchery Fish - how is it that anything they do be considered "Natural" or "Wild"


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

> this is a wild ohio fish... Dorsal is a dead give away


No, unclipped or undamaged fins are just an _indicator_
that it could be a wild bred fish. Many hatchery brats have undamaged fins also.

As far as fighting better, I'd don't see the reasoning behind that.

If you wanna believe its wild, though, that's cool.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

I would say that it's likely a naturally reproduced steelie. Doesn't matter if parents are from hatchery or not. Good news is that some natural reproduction is occuring in Ohio streams. Steelies are reproducing just like the walleye in the inland lakes. They just aren't doing it well enough to stop the stocking programs. If enough eggs are laid, some are bound to hatch. That's just mother nature in action! 

Now if I could just learn how to catch those darn fish! Hoping to give it a try this weekend.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Had this discussion before with some folks. Steelies do spawn, their eggs hatch, but I think most of the young get fried in most creeks during the summer months. They really need cold water streams, like in Michigan.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Gussmacker said:


> "no native rainbows , they were all stocked at some point"
> 
> This is why I asked the question - all the Steelhead in NE Ohio are Stocked Hatchery Fish or as evidence of the pictures are the result of spawing Stocked Hatchery Fish - how is it that anything they do be considered "Natural" or "Wild"



if they made love in the stream the natural way then the offspring would be no different than any other wild trout


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## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

heres the thing the steelhead that are stocked by the odnr are a wild strain of fish. they are only hatched and raised for one year in a hatchery. the parents are collected from the little manistee river in michigan where the eggs are fertilized. i would also like to add plenty of fish have no fin problems whatsoever, and also the odnr doesnt do any fin clips or pit tags on steelhead. like someone else said the coldwater is necessary for them not saying that none make it, but it cant be very many.


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## creekcrawler (Oct 5, 2004)

Since they're a non-native specie, I think the ODNR ought to quit steelie stocking and put 400,000 sturgeon in the rivers.....


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Yeah I know they dont all have fin damage but a small percentage of fish raised in trout hatcheries do just from swimming around in close quarters in a concrete raceway or pool , or even from being handled. Some fish hatcheries have been known to clip a small piece if a fin , I guess as a way to be able to tell stream raised from stocked but they might not do that around here. If you did find a fish with a piece of fin missing it just increases the likelyhood that it was a stocker.


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## yonderfishin (Apr 9, 2006)

Anybody ever catch a native brookie in Ohio streams ?


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## CARL510ISLE (Jan 8, 2010)

As far as the original post, I'd first ask was that caught in a stocked trib. Those stockers have tendancies to wonder pretty far upstream and are sometimes found in the middle of summer. One year there was a pod of about 50 or so hanging around middle rocky and IMO they likely were stockers, I caught a couple while carp fishing in Mid July.

As far as stocking sizes lately, OH stockies have bee about 5-7", if you doubt that, fish conneaut this spring AFTER Ohio stocks and you'll see quite a difference between the sizes of smolts PA and OH stock.

The most natural reproduction takes place in the small creeks and feeders and it's very likely Nicks pictures depict wild fish or at least the type of places where naturally reproduced fish are more likely, especially those with heavy canopy and even some ground water.

Interestingly enough there's natural reproduction documented in some feeders of a large stream flowing through downtown.

C510I


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

I hope this follow up makes the non believers believers an sets the arguement to rest. The creek I caught the WILD fish below has 3 waterfalls/dams on it below where that picture was taken. So what you might say adult steelhead can make that jump no problem. The hole where that fish was caught is on private property about 8 miles up a ditch through log jams all three falls, it really is hell to get up there the adults have a hard time let alone a parr or smolt. Today I was there with my brother, we did alright the main focus was to get him to catch a few since he doesn't fish. After our day was pretty well finished. I dropped my float into an undercut bank that sometimes will hold a fish or two. Seconds after I dropped my float in it shot under I set the hook an wouldn't you know it a 12 inch flash of silver, instantly this thread came to mind so I took a picture of a WILD smolt (last stage of developement before the fish enters the lake). You can pick up faint parr markings wich will stay with the fish until it meets the lake, but check out the fins. Not one NOT ONE inperfection. Call me crazy, but I find it a little odd if dozens of perfect fin steelhead from 3 inches to 30 inches continuesly show up in the same stream that isn't stocked an has countless obstructions that stocked parr just are not going to go over... Take a look...


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

I'd also like to add, that wild fish show up in ever lake erie trib, without a doubt. Our rivers an streams do not have the water flow to make 100% efficient imprints on these fish. Imprinting is something that happens with fish sending them back to where they where born, since 99.99999% of our fish are stocked they don't imprint well an due to our low water flow the imprinting is even less ie. a fish stocked in the chagrin can run the grand a fish stocked in the grand can run the cattaraugus. In the same breath a natural born steelhead in cattaraugus (wich does have documented natural repro. an has streams closed in the spring for this reason) can show up in the Grand, connie, hoga, ash, ect...


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## Steelhead Fever (Dec 31, 2009)

ive also heard that PA DOESNT clip fins................


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## RockyRiverRay (Jan 14, 2009)

stream_stalker said:


> I hope this follow up makes the non believers believers an sets the arguement to rest. The creek I caught the WILD fish below has 3 waterfalls/dams on it below where that picture was taken. So what you might say adult steelhead can make that jump no problem. The hole where that fish was caught is on private property about 8 miles up a ditch through log jams all three falls, it really is hell to get up there the adults have a hard time let alone a parr or smolt. Today I was there with my brother, we did alright the main focus was to get him to catch a few since he doesn't fish. After our day was pretty well finished. I dropped my float into an undercut bank that sometimes will hold a fish or two. Seconds after I dropped my float in it shot under I set the hook an wouldn't you know it a 12 inch flash of silver, instantly this thread came to mind so I took a picture of a WILD smolt (last stage of developement before the fish enters the lake). You can pick up faint parr markings wich will stay with the fish until it meets the lake, but check out the fins. Not one NOT ONE inperfection. Call me crazy, but I find it a little odd if dozens of perfect fin steelhead from 3 inches to 30 inches continuesly show up in the same stream that isn't stocked an has countless obstructions that stocked parr just are not going to go over... Take a look...



Hahahah P00WneeD hahahahahah nice... sweet naturally reproduced fish right there. sounds like a very cool spot.


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## Patricio (Feb 2, 2007)

I caught this one the last week of may a couple of years ago. they stock small rainbows in a small stream off he grand, and trout can be had till the river and stream warms up enough to kill them all off.


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## RockyRiverRay (Jan 14, 2009)

Caught three mid-sized fish at pukelid with unclipped fins yesterday afternoon. Just means there not stockers??


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

RockyRiverRay said:


> Caught three mid-sized fish at pukelid with unclipped fins yesterday afternoon. Just means there not stockers??


No, unclipped doesn't mean not stocked (wild). Most fish wont have clipped fins, they will have a warped dorsal from being in a hatchery (not sure what this is caused from but possibly malnurished or living with so many other fish at one time gets them tweeked?) Anyway a wild fish will have perfectly straight rays in the fins an complete fins an still apparently it could be the one in a million perfect stocker :eyeroll:


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

I am going to throw some opinion in here. There is some natural reproduction, but I doubt theres 100 wild returning fish to ohio a year.
on the way you can tell a hatchery fish from a wild fish. without fin clips it is impossible. after working out west with these fish I have seen many hatchery adults with perfect dorsals and they had no ill marks other than an adiposed fin clip. I have also seen a rare few wild fish with beat up fins.
the smaller fish you guys are catching could be stocked fish swiming out of the lake for food, fish that stayed in a cooler trib all summer, fish that found a spring, plus rainbows can survive in 80 degree water as long as theres some O2 and they dont get caught.
though I will admit, that one stream stalker has looks like a wild smolt, but dont get your hopes up guys its rare.


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

riverKing said:


> I am going to throw some opinion in here. There is some natural reproduction, but I doubt theres 100 wild returning fish to ohio a year.
> on the way you can tell a hatchery fish from a wild fish. without fin clips it is impossible. after working out west with these fish I have seen many hatchery adults with perfect dorsals and they had no ill marks other than an adiposed fin clip. I have also seen a rare few wild fish with beat up fins.
> the smaller fish you guys are catching could be stocked fish swiming out of the lake for food, fish that stayed in a cooler trib all summer, fish that found a spring, plus rainbows can survive in 80 degree water as long as theres some O2 and they dont get caught.
> though I will admit, that one stream stalker has looks like a wild smolt, but dont get your hopes up guys its rare.


You've brought up some good points. The smolt that I caught, was upstream a very far distance from the lake above 3 water falls/dams the shortest of wich is about 4-5 feet high. Any juviniles above those dams I write off as wild fish. I've seen them from 3 inches all the way to the size of the one pictured below. It's the same stream the adult fish was caught in at the bottom of this thread. The imprinting on fish that where born in a lake erie trib has to be some what stronger than a fish stocked in an erie trib just before it goes to the lake, you are talking about 2 weeks worth of inprinting vs. 2 years worth of imprinting. Given the number of 1st an 2nd year parr and the number of smolt that I find way upstream on this creek I would have to assume that the perfect finned adults i've seen in there are a few of your speculated 100 wild fish. 

Also, I've brought this point up before, the Catt gets wild fish an has decently successful natural reproduction (I want to say I read 25% of the return in the catt are wild fish, but don't quote me). Given what I said earlier about imprinting it still isn't a 100% so some of those wild fish from the Catt stray to ohio. 

I guess without genetic testing an blood work it really is impossible to tell weather a fish is wild or hatchery. Either way, it's an interesting debate.


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

I doubt genetic testing would tell the difference between hatchery and wild fish in the same river system where the wild fish would be the ofspring of the hatchery fish.
the only way to tell would be to mark all the fish with a clip.
you are right on what they claim on the catt, it may be higher. But I dont know how they test it.
also, wild fish dont tend to stray near as often as hatchery fish, so I would guess that if you do get a wild fish in a stream it was born there.


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## jojopro (Oct 9, 2007)

I have no doubt that, although rare, some natural reproduction of rainbow trout, which survive to smolt, occurs in Ohio waters. It is documented fact that natural reproduction of these fish occurs/has occurred on many tributaries of Lake Erie in Ohio...I'd say that the picture of the parr that Stream Stalker posted and the description of where the fish came from provide further proof of this. 

I would be willing to bet that the fish pictured in my initial post was in fact naturally reproduced. IMO the small size, presence of parr markings, and flawless looking fins translates into a fish that was in fact spawned in that river or one of its feeder creeks. This fish was caught on the Rocky River. Considering how warm the Rocky gets over the summer I would guess that this fish was actually spawned in one of the feeder creeks and spent the first year or two of it's life in that creek before making it's way into the main river where I caught it. The big question is whether or not the fish was able to survive the past summer to smolt.

The other stocked smolts that I have caught in the past looked more like this fish...








About 8" in length, silvery in color with no parr markings, and an imperfect dorsal fin.


















Last winter on the V I caught this fish with perfect looking fins that I believe to be a naturally reproduced fish. Considering the greater imprinting that would take place in a naturally reproduced fish, I believe that chances are that if the above pictured fish was in fact "wild", then this fish likely was spawned in the V. If natural reproduction of rainbow trout could occur on the V, then it could certainly occur on any of the other streams of NE OH.

It's great to know that some instances of natural reproduction have been taking place in Ohio. It's pretty sweet to think that these stocked fish may be adapting to defy the odds and produce more and more natural offspring each year. It's amazing to me, the ability of nature to adapt. 

John


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## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

blood work i dont believe would do it. i believe the guys name is jeff minor from bgsu, hes looking at otoliths of steelhead to detect if they are a casfh fish or a wild fish. i dont know if any of his work is out yet, but i know he is definately in the process of collecting his data.


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

ahh that makes sense, otoliths would most certainly show a growth difference between a wild and hatchery fish.

just remember looks cannot tell for sure wild or hatchery, a penn raised fish can and often will have perfect fins and parr marks.
I think the reason for the increase in "sightings" is the fact that people hear about it for the first time and then look for it in every clean fish.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

The good news is that some natural reproduction is occuring and it will only get better from here. If Ohio's rivers can recover this much in the 30 years since the Clean Water Act was passed, just think how much better they will be in 30 more years! Maybe then, Cleveland will be the walleye and steelhead capital of the world!


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## thistubesforu (Mar 30, 2009)

yeah the growth difference, and also the chemical compounds that make up the growth rings.


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## stream_stalker (May 10, 2006)

You could probably test what made up the majority of the fish's diet during its first year or two years, weather it ate hatchery pellets or had a diet of macroinvertibre in the streams (stonefly larva, mayfly larva, caddis nymphs ect...)


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## Patricio (Feb 2, 2007)

bdawg said:


> The good news is that some natural reproduction is occuring and it will only get better from here.


we have neither the cold water nor the stream beds for a real population to naturally reproduce.


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## Whiskerhunter (Sep 24, 2009)

Just gonna chime in here, but from what I gather, natural spawned steelies in Ohio's tribs are almost impossible because of the high flows we get here. The waters wash too much silt over top of the eggs and they never hatch. While I'd imagine that there is an occasional freak egg that does hatch, I can't see those numbers being more than a handful across the entire state... at least out of any of the major tribs.


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