# Used car prices as high as before the pandemic!?



## Fishinaddict (Sep 23, 2014)

So I keep hearing of all these "deals" and "they are reducing the prices 25%" on cars. Then when I look at the dealerships all the prices are as if there was nothing going on in society. I was looking at a dealership and asked how this pandemic was effecting them and he said "Were super busy selling tons of cars" and he went on to talk about the internet sales and deliveries yada yada. Why haven't the prices budged? Was this car salesman giving me a line of BS??


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## polebender (Oct 29, 2011)

I talked to a car salesman yesterday. They didn’t have what I was looking for but he said they are really hurting for business and they are ready to make some deals! So I’d say BS!


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

They are lying their butts off. I was seriously shopping for new trucks back in the beginning of March. Had a new leftover 2019 picked and the deal made at $39,600. Due to an unforeseen tax issue I had to delay the purchase. But I had the paperwork. Last week I went to the dealer's site and the truck was still on the lot. But it was listed at $41,300. I called, asked the salesman about the truck and he told me the truck was still available. I told him I would take it at the $39,600 number but I wanted the 0 percent for 84 month deal. No dice he said. They have to buy down the rate from the lender and that jacked the price. Mind you, I was approved with 0 down 2 months ago for 60 months at 0 percent for the first price. 2 years costs $1,700 more and they won't deal on the truck? Yeah, they're dying right now. Not. 

You know it.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

If you don't put down 20% at least, you don't need to be in the market for a 40k automobile


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

I was shopping for a work box truck. The deals where OK not great. The problem is they don't have what I want since all the plant shut downs. If you financed no the deals are gone but cash and the deals got better.


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## Mamps (Feb 3, 2008)

take It for what it’s worth but a dealership that has an extra 25% margin to give up on a deal will not last long because prices will be too high or they will run out of inventory to sell because they won’t be able to buy and turn around and sell.
I do believe some buy here pay here lots are making 30-40% margin but they are also taking risk on default. They are spreading the risk out through higher margins. If 1 of every 3 transactions defaults and they make a 33% margin, they sort of break even...they still have overhead expenses to pay. 

in my opinion, if your getting 10-15% discount, that’s a good deal.

I’m in a little different business than selling cars but still very similar. I would assume average used car margins at a dealer is around 10%. New cars is less. A dealer makes their money off parts and service and the volume bonus they get from the manufacturer based on how many units (cars) they sell.

And regarding financing, please understand nothing is free. If your getting 0% for 1 or 1,000 months, it’s costing you money. Trust me!
The dealer has discounts to use on cash and on finance. Very rarely are the discounts the same. That’s life, every manufacturer does it, it’s not the dealer.

if you have specific questions or want some advice on negotiating, direct message me.


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## Fishinaddict (Sep 23, 2014)

So it seems prices even go UP during a pandemic. Thats a crazy concept!! Less sales = higher prices to cover the dealers losses?? All I can say is that I HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE used car price drop or seem any cheaper. Thats nuts. Could be that with the extra 600 a week people are acutally making more money on unemployment/cares act then actually working. Maybe people are still buying cars. Darn, can't believe ANYTHING


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## loves2fishinohio (Apr 14, 2011)

I liken it to hotel prices. They don't drop their prices when times are tough, they just reduce staffing.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Dealers have been making a killing. They can afford to wait before having to drop prices. They are hoping the economy picks back up. Automakers shutdown to keep from flooding the market with new cars. Currently dealers don't want your trade in unless you give it to them. Also this 7 of 8 year 0% is bs. Your paying more for the vehicle, how you think they making money? Either from price of car, bs products from the finance office, or a cut of the interest.


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## Patricio (Feb 2, 2007)

Car sales keep dropping. But they think without the factories turning out more cars than people buy, which is normal, the stock on hand is more valuable.


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## stampman60 (Jan 12, 2015)

You can ALWAYS believe a car salesman.


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

Legend killer said:


> If you don't put down 20% at least, you don't need to be in the market for a 40k automobile


If I can borrow $40K for 7 years at zero percent, why would I want to put any money down? Why not keep that money (in your scenario $8K) in my own investment earning interest? In 7 years at a modest rate it could double. If I give the dealership that money up front what benefit do I get other than a lower monthly payment? I could buy the truck outright if I wanted to but why dump $40K on the spot? Dumb move. 
I keep vehicles until they die; my 2001 F150 has 255,000 miles on it and is my daily driver. Telling me I don't need to be in the market is not your call to make. 

You know it.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

UFM82 said:


> If I can borrow $40K for 7 years at zero percent, why would I want to put any money down? Why not keep that money (in your scenario $8K) in my own investment earning interest? In 7 years at a modest rate it could double. If I give the dealership that money up front what benefit do I get other than a lower monthly payment? I could buy the truck outright if I wanted to but why dump $40K on the spot? Dumb move.
> I keep vehicles until they die; my 2001 F150 has 255,000 miles on it and is my daily driver. Telling me I don't need to be in the market is not your call to make.
> 
> You know it.


From the rule of 72, your money will double in 7 years if you can get 10.2% per year compounded.


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

I read it on the internet so it has to be true but supposedly there are boats w/thousands of vehicles on them just sitting at anchor because there's no place to send those vehicles ... by the end of summer they should be begging to make a deal, there's only so much inventory they can sit on and new models coming out ..,. car companies are going to be hurting, should be a buyers market, especially if you have some cash ...


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

We got a great deal on a Toyota Corolla for the wife by getting quotes through Truecar.com

If you're a Costco member you can get $1000 back through them if you buy one of a couple different Chevy truck models by June 3oth.....( I got $750 last year for buying an Equinox)


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

UFM82 said:


> If I can borrow $40K for 7 years at zero percent, why would I want to put any money down? Why not keep that money (in your scenario $8K) in my own investment earning interest? In 7 years at a modest rate it could double. If I give the dealership that money up front what benefit do I get other than a lower monthly payment? I could buy the truck outright if I wanted to but why dump $40K on the spot? Dumb move.
> I keep vehicles until they die; my 2001 F150 has 255,000 miles on it and is my daily driver. Telling me I don't need to be in the market is not your call to make.
> 
> You know it.


You dont think the dealer is making money on you? They are not marking the car down because you are getting "a steal" of 0 % financing. You are on the hook for roughly 600$/month for the next 7 years.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

i would love to see the auto industry price them self out of busness.


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

I didn't say the dealer wasn't making money. They wouldn't sell me the truck if they weren't. I don't expect any business to not make a profit on a sale as that's not sustainable. And that wasn't my point. I pointed out it's not smart to put a bunch of money down when you can borrow at no cost and keep your money earning interest elsewhere. 

And Snake, the return is closer to 12 percent. 

You know it.


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## Harry1959 (Mar 17, 2011)

Negotiated the price on a new forestor for my wife a couple years ago. Salesman gave me a sale price, we negotiated and I declined. He then asked me “what it it would take for us to buy it today”. I gave him a number $3000 less than his “best price”. No trade in. He laughed and told me that “nobody is going to sell you this car for that price.” We weren’t in a hurry, so I told him to call me when he could sell it at my price. It worked! He called me in about a month and we got it for our price. It was late summer, so maybe clearing out old inventory or the time of the month is why . Doesn’t really matter why, but we got it for our price. I’d read to try that strategy....try it!


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

UFM82 said:


> I didn't say the dealer wasn't making money. They wouldn't sell me the truck if they weren't. I don't expect any business to not make a profit on a sale as that's not sustainable. And that wasn't my point. I pointed out it's not smart to put a bunch of money down when you can borrow at no cost and keep your money earning interest elsewhere.
> 
> And Snake, the return is closer to 12 percent.
> 
> You know it.


You're going to be upside down on your loan as soon as you pull off the lot.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

baitguy said:


> I read it on the internet so it has to be true but supposedly there are boats w/thousands of vehicles on them just sitting at anchor because there's no place to send those vehicles ... by the end of summer they should be begging to make a deal, there's only so much inventory they can sit on and new models coming out ..,. car companies are going to be hurting, should be a buyers market, especially if you have some cash ...


Dealers hate cash buyers. They know you wont buy crap in the finance office. They prefer to play the "what's your monthly payment your looking at". Before you know it you will have a 10 year loan at your monthly payment with worthless add ons.


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

So the last time I was looking at buying a vehicle the offer was either 0% financing of $2000 off.
0% rarely comes at the same price.


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## bowhunter1487 (Aug 13, 2014)

I've bought two cars in my life. The first I was 22, fresh out of college, bad credit, dumb kid I'd just crashed the one my dad gave me.

Second was about a month ago. Now I'm 32 with almost perfect credit and a CPA.

Man, was that two freaking totally different buying experiences. The best way not to get messed with by sleazy car salesman is to know your way around money. It was as straightforward as can be and I walked out with a deal I was very content with.

You'll never see 25% off book prices. 5%, maybe 10% if the dealer is in a big inventory pinch and can make some money off your trade or interest. If book prices go down 25% there will be about two car dealers left in every state when its all said and done.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

one3 said:


> i would love to see the auto industry price them self out of busness.


Are you Amish?  How are you going to get around without cars and trucks?


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Legend killer said:


> You're going to be upside down on your loan as soon as you pull off the lot.


As with any vehicle...thats why you gotta keep the vehicle 2 to 3 years before trading it back in...that way you'll get the payoff on the trade in...the reason for stretching a loan out so far is just for the cheaper monthly payment...you never intend to pay for 84 or 72 months...at least me anyway...


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## baitguy (Dec 17, 2013)

Snakecharmer said:


> Are you Amish? How are you going to get around without cars and trucks?


Even the Amish need vehicles, they just hire someone to drive them around ...


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

UFM82 said:


> I didn't say the dealer wasn't making money. They wouldn't sell me the truck if they weren't. I don't expect any business to not make a profit on a sale as that's not sustainable. And that wasn't my point. I pointed out it's not smart to put a bunch of money down when you can borrow at no cost and keep your money earning interest elsewhere.
> 
> And Snake, the return is closer to 12 percent.
> 
> You know it.


6yr x 12% = 72 7 x10.28% = 72 ...If you get 12%, it will only take about 6 years not 7 years to double your money....


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

baitguy said:


> Even the Amish need vehicles, they just hire someone to drive them around ...


But what are they going to drive them in if there aren't cars and trucks ( 7 vans)?


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## KPI (Jun 4, 2011)

Legend killer said:


> Dealers hate cash buyers. They know you wont buy crap in the finance office. They prefer to play the "what's your monthly payment your looking at". Before you know it you will have a 10 year loan at your monthly payment with worthless add ons.


New screen name BUZZ killer every post is negative!!! I have a question I have a 2015 Chevy Silverado duramax diesel LTZ dually I could sell more then what I owe on it so not upside down on it like you suggested to someone else 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

KPI said:


> New screen name BUZZ killer every post is negative!!! I have a question I have a 2015 Chevy Silverado duramax diesel LTZ dually I could sell more then what I owe on it so not upside down on it like you suggested to someone else
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whats that have to do with the OP upside down on his 84 month loan?


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## Skip2myalou (Apr 2, 2013)

Your not upside down on it if you plan on keeping it for the life of the loan. If a bank ever offers me 0% on a loan on something I plan on buying I take that. That's even better than free money. That's negative money when you consider inflation. You are better to take the zero APR and invest.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

Skip2myalou said:


> Your not upside down on it if you plan on keeping it for the life of the loan. If a bank ever offers me 0% on a loan on something I plan on buying I take that. That's even better than free money. That's negative money when you consider inflation. You are better to take the zero APR and invest.


there is typically a 0% vs additional $ off options. you can run the numbers yourself to see if the 0% or the $ off will save you more. these are typically national mfg options and not via the dealer.

life of the loan is not that good of a deal either since these things are so pricey. drive them until they become too unreliable or expensive to maintain (major component failures). of course NE Ohio rusts kills a vehicle before it wears out. My "new" truck is 13-years old and the older one is 21-years. Both are just shy of 200k miles. This is typical vehicle life once you get out of the winter salt zone. Move south young man, move south...


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

Legend, being upside down is not an issue when you keep vehicles for extended lengths of time. I don't care about the value of the truck because I have no intention to resell it until I am done with it. But I do know that every dollar I spend goes toward the principal. And I still have money in my accounts that I didn't put down. 

Snake, I meant my return rate is closer to 12. 

You know it.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Saving that $8000 down payment and investing it to earn 10% gives you $67/month right away. That number goes up if you keep re-investing those earnings until you double your investment in 7 years. Assuming you pick good investments. If he can handle $600/month payments, then it's better for him to not do a down payment especially on a 0% loan. 

I still own the new 2007 Pontiac G6 I bought. Unfortunately, I didn't get the 0% rate. This trusty rusty car is what my teenagers are learning to drive on now. Last year, I repainted the bottom edge of the doors to try and stop the rust! I have had no payments on it for the last 7 years!


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## bowhunter1487 (Aug 13, 2014)

You generally need gap insurance with no down payment or trade in.

It's really not complicated, you take your investment return less your marginal tax rate and compare it to your interest rate. If it's higher, invest the money and take on the debt. If the interest is higher, pay off the debt with your cash. That's the smart/disciplined approach.....the reason people like Dave Ramsey that go around pontificating against debt aren't total idiots is that few living breathing humans have the discipline to actually invest what they should. What that guy preaches from a pure finance perspective is complete idiocy. The rub is that many folks will go out and blow the cash on something else and still have the debt. We're not really wired as a species to be good investors generally speaking.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

bowhunter1487 said:


> You generally need gap insurance with no down payment or trade in.


your "gap" insurance is allowed to be "self insurance". if you are willing to take the risk, why pay someone else for that service.

regardless of when there is a loss. there will always be a gap. the insurance companies plan on that... your deductible is one planned gap. the other is that you know they will under value your vehicle if it is totaled. and another is the loss of value after your vehicle is repaired.

so, there is always a gap. learn to live with it... if you can't absorb the gap - you can't afford the vehicle!


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Typical auto loans used to be 36 months, because of people nowadays there are 84 month loan rates and beyond.


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## ILikaFish (Mar 13, 2018)

The trucks were flying off the lots in Columbus in April , Mind you i was looking at Chevy 1500's. Went to the dealer 3 times and each truck i looked at was gone the next day. I Did get the truck i wanted but not at 0% for 84 months, taking the discount was a better deal. Car sales on the other hand are a different story.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Legend killer said:


> Typical auto loans used to be 36 months, because of people nowadays there are 84 month loan rates and beyond.


Thats because they just want the cheaper monthly payment and new/different car every 3 to 4 years...nothing wrong with that...lots of folks never pay off a car or truck...even at 84 months if you wait just 3 years you will not be upside down, you'll still get the payoff and possibly more (assuming it's been taken care of) when trading it in...you're more than welcome to put your 20% down on a loan if you want...a lot of folks do that too.
I've never purchased a vehicle that I intended to pay off...yet...but that's just me...as a matter of fact, talking about this makes me wanna go trade in my F-150...lol.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Shad Rap said:


> Thats because they just want the cheaper monthly payment and new/different car every 3 to 4 years...nothing wrong with that...lots of folks never pay off a car or truck...even at 84 months if you wait just 3 years you will not be upside down, you'll still get the payoff and possibly more when trading it in...you're more than welcome to put your 20% down on a loan if you want...a lot of folks do that too.
> I've never purchased a vehicle that I intended to pay off...yet...but that's just me.


Amortization is highest at the beginning. So if you take a steep discount and finance you're paying most of the interest in the first couple years. 

Don't know why some irresponsible people take out 20 year loans on boats the cost of some homes. They don't understand amortization.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

Shad Rap said:


> Thats because they just want the cheaper monthly payment and new/different car every 3 to 4 years...nothing wrong with that...lots of folks never pay off a car or truck...even at 84 months if you wait just 3 years you will not be upside down, you'll still get the payoff and possibly more (assuming it's been taken care of) when trading it in...you're more than welcome to put your 20% down on a loan if you want...a lot of folks do that too.
> I've never purchased a vehicle that I intended to pay off...yet...but that's just me...as a matter of fact, talking about this makes me wanna go trade in my F-150...lol.


wow!!!

you must work for an auto dealership or bank auto loan office :^)


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

privateer said:


> wow!!!
> 
> you must work for an auto dealership or bank auto loan office :^)


Plus you get the bare minimum @ trade in time, if that.


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## allwayzfishin (Apr 30, 2008)

loves2fishinohio said:


> I liken it to hotel prices. They don't drop their prices when times are tough, they just reduce staffing.


And they charge you full price with zero amenities.


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## CMGOhio (Sep 3, 2019)

Im not sure if you would ever be ahead after 3 yrs of a car purchase, planned for 8yrs of payments. Only thing i own that i expect to Appreciate, is my house. 

boats, cars, campers...i expect to lose the second i sign the papers, such is life.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

CMGOhio said:


> Im not sure if you would ever be ahead after 3 yrs of a car purchase, planned for 8yrs of payments. Only thing i own that i expect to Appreciate, is my house.
> 
> boats, cars, campers...i expect to lose the second i sign the papers, such is life.



they say that economically you are never ahead on a depreciating asset...

however, i sometimes feel ok about it when i can still drive my 20-year old truck and it provides exactly the same functionality as when i first purchased it... wish i could get another like it without all the additional electronics "features".


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Trucks right now are listed at the high end and over fair market prices. The dealers won't budge either.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Legend killer said:


> Plus you get the bare minimum @ trade in time, if that.


Wrong again...maybe this is your experience...you must not take care of your vehicles...I've always gotten at least payoff and sometime even more than that...that's all that matters...wife also...if you consider that 'bare minimum' so be it...I'm not looking to 'make' money on something I trade in...maybe you need to find a different dealer...


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Legend killer said:


> Amortization is highest at the beginning. So if you take a steep discount and finance you're paying most of the interest in the first couple years.
> 
> Don't know why some irresponsible people take out 20 year loans on boats the cost of some homes. They don't understand amortization.


They may not understand it, but it's their decision not yours...wouldn't call those people irresponsible...you think all those people re-nig on a loan or what?
When some boats/vehicles cost as much as a small home you gotta do what you gotta do...
Good for you that you have 20% to put down and all that jazz...sounds like you have the system down pat.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Shad Rap said:


> Wrong again...maybe this is your experience...you must not take care of your vehicles...I've always gotten at least payoff and sometime even more than that...that's all that matters...wife also...if you consider that 'bare minimum' so be it...I'm not looking to 'make' money on something I trade in...maybe you need to find a different dealer...


So you take out long loans on your vehicles with the intent of not keeping them. Trade them in to get payoff. So you like to always be in debt?

Try trading a vehicle in now which is what I am talking about. Dealer lots are already full, have you not heard that dealers are trying to not accept vehicles in the lease is over?


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## jbo (Apr 24, 2014)

Legend killer said:


> If you don't put down 20% at least, you don't need to be in the market for a 40k automobile


With 0% interest its not wise to put anything down if you don't have to. Your better off to take the 20% and invest it and let it pay you. I see where you are coming from and in that respect agree with you.


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## MuskyFan (Sep 21, 2016)

Just for giggles I had my 2018 Chevy Colorado appraised as a trade-in. 2 1/2 years old and it has dropped almost $20k, and it is valued at barely above what I owe on it. I put a big down payment on it along with my trade so I was very surprised and disappointed. They told me it is a result of the pandemic. Too many used cars and no one buying. But haven't seen any prices dropping so you're getting it from both ends more so than in the past.


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## multi species angler (Feb 20, 2006)

MuskyFan said:


> Too many used cars and no one buying. But haven't seen any prices dropping so you're getting it from both ends more so than in the past.


 Sort of like how crude oil goes up cost of oil in the stores goes up. As of lately couldn't hardly give crude oil away but the oil in the stores didn't drop in price.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

jbo said:


> With 0% interest its not wise to put anything down if you don't have to. Your better off to take the 20% and invest it and let it pay you. I see where you are coming from and in that respect agree with you.


To get the 0% you do not qualified for certain discounts, if you look at the fine print of ads for you to take out car mortgage you are not eligible for discounts up to say $6k plus.


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## one3 (Dec 1, 2015)

Snakecharmer said:


> Are you Amish? How are you going to get around without cars and trucks?


The auto prices are way out there. For as many as there are out there, one would think the prices should be some what lower.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

Legend killer said:


> To get the 0% you do not qualified for certain discounts, if you look at the fine print of ads for you to take out car mortgage you are not eligible for discounts up to say $6k plus.


run the numbers. some times the 0% is better and others taking the discount is better. i run this on spreadsheet to confirm against 0% vs discount & finance vs discount & cash. i also compare against my cash staying in its current investment too. the folks that do the offers are not stupid... the answer is typically pretty close, in which case i take the 0% as with my cash yet available, i can take advantage of an opportunity that may arise.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Car dealers are in business to make money, not to provide a charitable service to the public. They don't build those nice big lots and buildings and employ all of those people by making a couple hundered bucks per car sold. No matter how it wrapped up, incentives, discounts, long term loans, add ons, trade-ins, finance and all of the above combined, they make thier money.

Shad rap, saying you always get payyoff or higher is really funny, they got you on the other end then. You don't get to beat the system, doesn't work that way except in your mind.

Privateer, most people don't keep a vehicle for 20 years so you are statistically irrelevent in the analysis. Most live upside down on loans for most of thier lives on every car, and boat loan, any purchase they make that doesn't appreciate in value, just a reality of life.


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## 9Left (Jun 23, 2012)

Exactly! Those car salesman often times know you better than you know yourself before you even walk onto the lot....If anybody thinks they are getting a "good deal "on any kind of a new vehicle… You're kidding yourself...They make their money one way or the other… It's just a matter of how they make you "think" you're getting a good deal. CEO's Don't have $1 million yachts and four houses because they gave you a good deal


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## homepiece (May 11, 2007)

Bought a new truck at the beginning of the shutdown. They gave me 2500 over KBB on my old truck, and knocked 13k off the sticker on the new one. Brought own financing at a low rate, and they beat that too. The biggest thing in my mind is never look for a vehicle when you need one. Shop, compare, take your time. Even if you are set on what you want, tell them you still need to look at comparable models. Use resources to find exact model you want from several dealers and work all of them to get the best deal. Take your time, and the dealers that want your business will call you to work a deal. Know that they are still going to make money on you. Every dollar going into their pocket is coming out of yours. Be nice, repeat business at the same dealer if you can.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

privateer said:


> run the numbers. some times the 0% is better and others taking the discount is better. i run this on spreadsheet to confirm against 0% vs discount & finance vs discount & cash. i also compare against my cash staying in its current investment too. the folks that do the offers are not stupid... the answer is typically pretty close, in which case i take the 0% as with my cash yet available, i can take advantage of an opportunity that may arise.


Say for a 28k vehicle a 5 year loan would be about 2k in interest. If you miss out on more cash back than that.....That is the longest I will take a loan out on. A 7-8 year car mortgage is not for me.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

A lot of used trucks under 30k mileage they are wanting the high end of the fair market price or beyond. As soon as you sign your upside down unless you have a substantial down payment.


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## MuskyFan (Sep 21, 2016)

I test drove a 2020 Silverado 1500 diesel last weekend and during my conversation with the sales guy the discount vs 0% came up. He said they were usually pretty close either way but you had to pay for the full 84 months on the 0% or interest would kick in if you paid off early. I didn’t dig into it to see if it was true or not. The truck I drove only has the discount not the 0% option so it was a moot point. Couldn’t afford it anyway.


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

The point of this conversation was the stories being splashed across the news sites that used vehicle prices were collapsing across the country. The post refuted that news. If you look online today for a used vehicle, there are no better deals now than there were 3 months ago. Carvana, Enterprise Used, Hertz, etc all have lots of vehicles listed and all are at the same or even higher prices than in February. The dealerships are offering "relief" for the crisis by offering longer finance terms but that costs money to buy the rate down. No, no deals. Although I believe we will see a rise in repos in the upcoming months I don't think we'll see a huge drop in prices. 

As an aside, Hertz is a week away from filing bankruptcy so maybe they'll have a fire sale. We'll see. 

You know it.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

Lundy said:


> Privateer, most people don't keep a vehicle for 20 years so you are statistically irrelevent in the analysis. Most live upside down on loans for most of thier lives on every car, and boat loan, any purchase they make that doesn't appreciate in value, just a reality of life.


and isn't that a shame too... there should be more statistically irrelevant folks too! everyone should learn to live debt free except perhaps for their primary home purchase and that debt should be carefully managed.

oh, i have two statistically irrelevant kids to as they completed college at a major state school and graduated debt free.

it is not statistically irrelevant to learn to manage your money instead of your money (debt) managing you.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

MuskyFan said:


> I test drove a 2020 Silverado 1500 diesel last weekend and during my conversation with the sales guy the discount vs 0% came up. He said they were usually pretty close either way but you had to pay for the full 84 months on the 0% or interest would kick in if you paid off early. I didn’t dig into it to see if it was true or not. The truck I drove only has the discount not the 0% option so it was a moot point. Couldn’t afford it anyway.


why in the world would anyone pay off a 0% loan early. use their money for as long as you can. any actual "cost" was added in up front.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't owe a dime on anything I own haven't for many many years and only keep vehicles for a few years. I have kept the same boats for over 12 years however. I am statistically irrelevant also.


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## FOWL BRAWL (Feb 13, 2020)

I just bought the wife a new vehicle but didn't take advantage of the delayed payment option. As i don't see the benefit

I am statistically relevant for the first time in 10 years again and will be for a while as im looking to close on a good tract of land this week


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## MuskyFan (Sep 21, 2016)

privateer said:


> why in the world would anyone pay off a 0% loan early. use their money for as long as you can. any actual "cost" was added in up front.


To get the payments done and over with. 84 months is a long time and having that debt can hurt if you’re trying to buy something else. They don’t want you buying it at 0% then paying it off in 36-48 months when those plans have a higher interest rate.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

FOWL BRAWL said:


> I just bought the wife a new vehicle but didn't take advantage of the delayed payment option. As i don't see the benefit
> 
> I am statistically relevant for the first time in 10 years again and will be for a while as im looking to close on a good tract of land this week



congrats on the land purchase. that is an appreciating asset... which can be a good investment.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

I guess we fall the irrelevant group as well. I have either saved and paid cash or we finance at 36 months for vehicles we purchase. Likely why I didn't have near as nice or newer model year as my peers during my earlier years. Now I won't pretend to enjoy those 36 months payments, but we own the vehicle fast and have lived by the motto of "if we can't afford to buy in 3 years we can't afford it". 

We just were at a dealership Saturday test driving and I'm looking at 0% 36 month payment options on a 2020 SUV now. We don't need it....but the wife WANTS a new one. We both drive 2009 models, but they have always been garaged, well maintained, no rust in great condition and have another 100k miles in them (my side of the story). But, they are same age and mileage, and putting distance between them would be good so we don't have to buy 2 vehicles at the same time down the road. And we are always hit double with maintenance likes tires, batteries, brakes, etc. (her take)

Now that we test drove I'm the fish on the hook and I'm sure other long term married guys can relate


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> I guess we fall the irrelevant group as well. I have either saved and paid cash or we finance at 36 months for vehicles we purchase. Likely why I didn't have near as nice or newer model year as my peers during my earlier years. Now I won't pretend to enjoy those 36 months payments, but we own the vehicle fast and have lived by the motto of "if we can't afford to buy in 3 years we can't afford it".
> 
> We just were at a dealership Saturday test driving and I'm looking at 0% 36 month payment options on a 2020 SUV now. We don't need it....but the wife WANTS a new one. We both drive 2009 models, but they have always been garaged, well maintained, no rust in great condition and have another 100k miles in them (my side of the story). But, they are same age and mileage, and putting distance between them would be good so we don't have to buy 2 vehicles at the same time down the road. And we are always hit double with maintenance likes tires, batteries, brakes, etc. (her take)
> 
> Now that we test drove I'm the fish on the hook and I'm sure other long term married guys can relate


You just need to man up and call the shots.


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> I guess we fall the irrelevant group as well. I have either saved and paid cash or we finance at 36 months for vehicles we purchase. Likely why I didn't have near as nice or newer model year as my peers during my earlier years. Now I won't pretend to enjoy those 36 months payments, but we own the vehicle fast and have lived by the motto of "if we can't afford to buy in 3 years we can't afford it".
> 
> We just were at a dealership Saturday test driving and I'm looking at 0% 36 month payment options on a 2020 SUV now. We don't need it....but the wife WANTS a new one. We both drive 2009 models, but they have always been garaged, well maintained, no rust in great condition and have another 100k miles in them (my side of the story). But, they are same age and mileage, and putting distance between them would be good so we don't have to buy 2 vehicles at the same time down the road. And we are always hit double with maintenance likes tires, batteries, brakes, etc. (her take)
> 
> Now that we test drove I'm the fish on the hook and I'm sure other long term married guys can relate


Have you gone to Truecar.com and have them give you quotes? Costco has some rebates going on some cars too.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Well a dealer called me back and told me to come in tomorrow, said its getting close to the end of the month. Maybe I can make a fair deal for both sides. Its a smaller gm dealer, maybe its starting to get rough for them. Truck has been on the lot since Jan.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Snakecharmer - yes I have done Truecar, pre-qualifying with Capital One, looked at Costco (long time member). It all depends on timing and what vehicle you are purchasing. For us and the vehicle we are buying, I have been able to negotiate a much better deal than any of the services listed above. 

I'm reviewing terms as I type this. I cannot do better financing anywhere outside of the manufacture financing options (Capital One has 2.79 but the dealer wants more for the vehicle of course so total cost is higher). I have the option of 12, 24, or 36 months at 0%, or 2.99% for anything 44 months to 66 months. They will pay $500 of first payment either deal. Running total cost I am inclined to break my rule and go 60 months. It would cost me all of $505.20 in additional total cost to go 60 months versus 36 months. $8.42 monthly without inflation adjustment......hmm?


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## Snakecharmer (Apr 9, 2008)

Fish-n-fool 
When I bought my Equinox, I got a better deal than the "Costco Dealer Discount" through a different dealer. They were also a "Costco" dealer so they filled out the paperwork and Costco gave me the $750 gas card. Even with the "Costco" plan you're free to negotiate if you wish.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> Snakecharmer - yes I have done Truecar, pre-qualifying with Capital One, looked at Costco (long time member). It all depends on timing and what vehicle you are purchasing. For us and the vehicle we are buying, I have been able to negotiate a much better deal than any of the services listed above.
> 
> I'm reviewing terms as I type this. I cannot do better financing anywhere outside of the manufacture financing options (Capital One has 2.79 but the dealer wants more for the vehicle of course so total cost is higher). I have the option of 12, 24, or 36 months at 0%, or 2.99% for anything 44 months to 66 months. They will pay $500 of first payment either deal. Running total cost I am inclined to break my rule and go 60 months. It would cost me all of $505.20 in additional total cost to go 60 months versus 36 months. $8.42 monthly without inflation adjustment......hmm?


That really makes no sense. Negotiate costs of car. I don't talk financing etc out in the open. When they bring that up I say, I don't feel comfortable out here but will speak to the finance man in private. Generally they take away discounts when going with the 0%.

Well it was a bust today. Well went to stealership. Was told the truck would be out front. We get there. They take us back to an office and the salesman starts asking questions. I said I want to see the truck I inquired about. They said it sold Saturday. They then said let's go out to the lot. I said we are going home. Also no one wearing masks.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Legend Killer - I too only negotiate price. I also secure independent financing and explore all options. At some point when a price is agreed upon financing or cash payment must be discussed. At current, even with the very best credit score my best deal was the lowered price using manufactured offered financing. And if you are in the market for certain vehicles there isn't as much wiggle room as with other manufacturers. It is a shell game that depends on timing, manufacturer and model desired.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> Legend Killer - I too only negotiate price. I also secure independent financing and explore all options. At some point when a price is agreed upon financing or cash payment must be discussed. At current, even with the very best credit score my best deal was the lowered price using manufactured offered financing. And if you are in the market for certain vehicles there isn't as much wiggle room as with other manufacturers. It is a shell game that depends on timing, manufacturer and model desired.


When you get back to the finance man be sure to cross out the doc fee and change to 75$.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

What a conversation piece to read up on.....LOL....I wish this site you could tag people so they know its going because I would have loved to of been apart of this conversation with some people....not Legend cause that dude obviously knows everything lol. Im assuming you argue your groceries price with the clerk when they are scanning your items as well?


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

[/QUOTE]


Legend killer said:


> That really makes no sense. Negotiate costs of car. I don't talk financing etc out in the open. When they bring that up I say, I don't feel comfortable out here but will speak to the finance man in private. Generally they take away discounts when going with the 0%.
> 
> Well it was a bust today. Well went to stealership. Was told the truck would be out front. We get there. They take us back to an office and the salesman starts asking questions. I said I want to see the truck I inquired about. They said it sold Saturday. They then said let's go out to the lot. I said we are going home. Also no one wearing masks.


I guess you should have manned up earlier since it’s been for sale since January. You seem to think the only way to do things is your way. That sure worked out well for you today. 

You can’t make this crap up.


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## jrose (Jul 16, 2012)

bowhunter1487 said:


> You generally need gap insurance with no down payment or trade in.
> 
> It's really not complicated, you take your investment return less your marginal tax rate and compare it to your interest rate. If it's higher, invest the money and take on the debt. If the interest is higher, pay off the debt with your cash. That's the smart/disciplined approach.....the reason people like Dave Ramsey that go around pontificating against debt aren't total idiots is that few living breathing humans have the discipline to actually invest what they should. What that guy preaches from a pure finance perspective is complete idiocy. The rub is that many folks will go out and blow the cash on something else and still have the debt. We're not really wired as a species to be good investors generally speaking.


Spoken like someone with a lot of debt.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Bob I wish I could love your post right there LOL........

Its still fathoms me that we have sponsored this site for how many years now and people still dont message or call me with questions or purchases? Also you guys act like a dealer isnt supposed to make any money at all?!?!? You obviously dont realize how much money it costs to even run a dealership not even including payroll and such........heres a quick fact to everyone saying dealerships making thousands and blah blah blah......my store alone where I work......Spent over a MILLION dollars last year in Advertising alone.......just Advertising.....thats just to get your @$$ through the door and hopefully sell you a car. So although you think its just a "stealership" just making thousannnddsss well take into consideration just advertising alone how much money they spent just to hopefully get you through the door. So yea when a dealer is trying to hold firm on price and make something they kinda have a reason too. Not including every other bill I didnt even mention between floorplan because you guys must think having cars sit on the lot for sale is free, payroll, utilities, insurance premiums for test drives and such.....heck our Insurance here is through the roof since Tom does free pick up and delivery on services.....another crazy expense that doesnt get recognized. I hope none of you guys are selling anything you personally own for profit and dont get mad if someone offers you less.


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## jrose (Jul 16, 2012)

I guess you should have manned up earlier since it’s been for sale since January. You seem to think the only way to do things is your way. That sure worked out well for you today.

You can’t make this crap up.[/QUOTE]
There is always a deal somewhere else if your patient.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

I guess you should have manned up earlier since it’s been for sale since January. You seem to think the only way to do things is your way. That sure worked out well for you today.

You can’t make this crap up.[/QUOTE]
Well original listing was 32k.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Scum_Frog said:


> Bob I wish I could love your post right there LOL........
> 
> Its still fathoms me that we have sponsored this site for how many years now and people still dont message or call me with questions or purchases? Also you guys act like a dealer isnt supposed to make any money at all?!?!? You obviously dont realize how much money it costs to even run a dealership not even including payroll and such........heres a quick fact to everyone saying dealerships making thousands and blah blah blah......my store alone where I work......Spent over a MILLION dollars last year in Advertising alone.......just Advertising.....thats just to get your @$$ through the door and hopefully sell you a car. So although you think its just a "stealership" just making thousannnddsss well take into consideration just advertising alone how much money they spent just to hopefully get you through the door. So yea when a dealer is trying to hold firm on price and make something they kinda have a reason too. Not including every other bill I didnt even mention between floorplan because you guys must think having cars sit on the lot for sale is free, payroll, utilities, insurance premiums for test drives and such.....heck our Insurance here is through the roof since Tom does free pick up and delivery on services.....another crazy expense that doesnt get recognized. I hope none of you guys are selling anything you personally own for profit and dont get mad if someone offers you less.


Not sure who you are but if you're in the car business you should not have a username as scum IMO.


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## bowhunter1487 (Aug 13, 2014)

jrose said:


> Spoken like someone with a lot of debt.


My balance sheet is very healthy. I understand finance/math.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

You would know Jarred if you have been on OGf sense 2011. Or is there a lot of Time Out in those years?


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Legend killer said:


> Not sure who you are but if you're in the car business you should not have a username as scum IMO.


 I drove over 2 hours to buy a truck from him. That username really bothered me. smh


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

idk if ive ever judged someone by a user name LOL especially on a fishing lure....I guess I should update it to Spro Frog?!?! LOL I seriously think I know what your problem is Legend....and im not saying this in any cocky or weird way......You've must of had a lot of bad experiences with car dealerships....meaning you've went to some bad ones...which they are out there 100%......I just think you dont have a true "car guy" you can call when you have an issue and know your taken care of for you best interest. Im sorry you havent found that yet. I take pride in my service to my customers....literally most of them know where I live and have my cell....idk how many times I have them randomly stop by my house on my day off to just say Hi. I think thats what you havent found yet so your negative and stereotype everyone.....hence like my user name......I feel bad. Every body needs a good car guy.


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## SJB (Mar 22, 2017)

I just bought a new truck - searched on and off for about 6 months until I found the deal too good to pass up. I firmly believe any business needs to make money. I run projects for work in the $30MM range and tell all my contractors they will be bid against, and make sure they have mark up to keep them bidding in the future. The ones who get it, understand the game, and know where they need to cut in order to stay in the business. Same with car dealerships. Some will win your business on low price. Others like the great lounge or car loaner program. All cost money. I found a truck the price was too good compared to other dealers, and they had great customer service to boot. No BS, hidden costs AND took care of me on a few minor issues. Not saying I will for sure go there for my next car, but my business will be there to lose. If one does not like the "stealerships" then don't go there and buy used from a private party. But realize there is greater risk of scams there than new. But if you know what you are doing, should be ok as well.


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## UFM82 (Apr 6, 2004)

Scum
I'd probably buy a truck from you but I'd have to wear a bag on my head so no one would see me driving a Chevy. LOL.

Honestly this thread started due to a more serious note before it was poisoned. The OP and I both opined that the prices were definitely NOT dropping like crazy due to the pandemic. Despite the commercials being plastered all over the airwaves the pricing was worse than before. I offered up a factual and recent experience about a new truck purchase and it went sideways. I don't know what your experience has been but it would be good to hear your side. Longer term, low rate, higher price? Seems to be the case. What the dealers don't tell you is what hurts the most. 

You know it.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Well I bought the SUV yesterday. I had them work the deal 36, 48 and 60 months. The offers presented were pretty fair IMO. Total vehicle cost was right at $518 more to finance versus 0% for 36 months. I countered a little low and it was not accepted. I re-worked the numbers and we settled...total cost was 6% off MSRP (which was dealer cost plus their hold back). I paid 20% down and ran the note at 2.99% for 60 months. They are paying $500 of my first payment. 
No prepayment penalty and I am free to pay the note in full at any time. They tossed in all weather rubber floor mats and a cargo net as well ($650).

All said and done it was basically a push between the deals after you did the math (with the $500 payment included). Not exact to the penny, but *very* close. They were going to get a certain amount for the vehicle no matter how you bought it, or they would not sell it. The don't make a lot of this particular trim and these have been selling nationwide before they get advertised. I was going to go to Chicago to get one last Friday that came in TH, but they called in the morning to let me know it was sold!

I bought this vehicle in KY (Fort Mitchell) and the dealership was BUSY!! They sold 11 vehicles in the afternoon while I was there. My sales team said they had 57 internet leads when they came in yesterday morning (just their 3 person team not dealership). They told me their concern was getting more vehicles fast enough!!!

And I guess I'm just a dumb sucker...I paid the $375 and didn't cross it out and write in $75 on my contract. Wife loves it and I was treated great. Would recommend anybody to shop at this dealership they made everything painless and were upfront and honest the entire process.

Coming full circle I guess I am going to be posting a used car for sale. Need to look at values, but glad to hear they are not in the bottoms since I'm going to sell a vehicle. Anybody interested in a real clean 2009 Lexus RX350 with every single option available (over 10k in options at purchase) pm me before I get it up. For a 2009 it is very clean and in excellent condition.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

The biggest problem as a dealer what we are seeing is getting new vehicles. We cant. Heck we are still feeling the effects of the 44 day strike and not having vehicles yet and then now with this shut down we will feel it for the next year....in return now used car prices will go up because of the minimal inventory on new. Heck ive got two guys who ordered New C8 Corvette's that should of already been here and they havent even been started to build yet. So yes with new cars being at a shortage and used cars in abundance it will in return drive used car prices up. As far as rebates and new car purchases go....No dealers do not buy down the rate to get 0%...if its offered by the company then its on them not us. Each vehicle has different incentives and some do have the 0% for 84 months so you need to figure out which way is smarter....taking the rebates or taking the financing. As far as deals themselves are they great??!?!? Some are....some arent. No company is in the position right now to just throw crazy deals out there because if they did they would be out of inventory in 2 months or less. Rebates are good enough to know your getting a fair purchase yes. In some cases the 0% financing is $30-40 cheaper a month than just your typical rebates so its enticing to go that rate and borrow money for free. Right now you need to have a good dealer who will take care of you above and beyond just the purchase as well. It goes a long way. As far as sales are concerned we arent hurting for sales. Now we arent booming either so dont get that confused. We are still probably 30-40 vehicles less a month than normal but our dealerships arent even back to full staff yet either. People are still buying cars and spending money which you guys should be happy cause thats what needs to happen to get this economy back going, people need to be spending money! 

PS on a side note we have a new Ford store as well


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## Lewzer (Apr 5, 2004)

I was at a local Toyota dealership getting my normal maintenance last Saturday. Looking around I saw one Tacoma and one Tundra. I go up to the sales desk and ask where are all the trucks. They had 98 in stock at the beginning of March. Only had 10 now due to factory shutdowns. They said other dealerships are in the same boat. Good luck finding a deal on the new trucks now with inventory so tight no matter the brand.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> Well I bought the SUV yesterday. I had them work the deal 36, 48 and 60 months. The offers presented were pretty fair IMO. Total vehicle cost was right at $518 more to finance versus 0% for 36 months. I countered a little low and it was not accepted. I re-worked the numbers and we settled...total cost was 6% off MSRP (which was dealer cost plus their hold back). I paid 20% down and ran the note at 2.99% for 60 months. They are paying $500 of my first payment.
> No prepayment penalty and I am free to pay the note in full at any time. They tossed in all weather rubber floor mats and a cargo net as well ($650).
> 
> All said and done it was basically a push between the deals after you did the math (with the $500 payment included). Not exact to the penny, but *very* close. They were going to get a certain amount for the vehicle no matter how you bought it, or they would not sell it. The don't make a lot of this particular trim and these have been selling nationwide before they get advertised. I was going to go to Chicago to get one last Friday that came in TH, but they called in the morning to let me know it was sold!
> ...


CA passed a law where doc fee is 65 or 85$ respectively. Doc fee is only a dealer add on. Look on your credit report the dealer shotgunned your credit report for their benefit. When i buy i don't give them my info to shotgun my credit because If I don't buy from there lenders don't like seeing applications from the same person over and over. I am straight up to the salesperson.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

Legend killer said:


> When i buy i don't give them my info to shotgun my credit because


can you explain this more? what do you withhold from them? just social security number? i thought credit report can be run from drivers license too and most dealers require a copy of the license before you can testdrive.


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Legend - I also don't give them any information until a deal is made. I monitor my credit very closely (being a Capital One card holder makes it easy as they monitor and update twice monthly). Fortunately, you can pre-qualify for loans (of all sorts not just auto) without actually hitting your credit report. My credit was run exactly once after the signed deal and a deposit was made. For anybody interested, it is going to reduce my credit score a whopping 3 points having them run me for this vehicle. But that will be the only inquiry or activity for me in around 5 years.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

privateer said:


> can you explain this more? what do you withhold from them? just social security number? i thought credit report can be run from drivers license too and most dealers require a copy of the license before you can testdrive.


You have to have a social to do a hard pull. They want your license if you steal it. They will hit you with 10 or more inquiries. To the credit bureau it will be one cause its within a 14 day window. You get screwed when you go to multiple dealers and they all shotgun you. 

I will get pre approved and then offer them to shotgun your credit to see if they can beat your rate.


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## privateer (Apr 26, 2012)

Legend killer said:


> You have to have a social to do a hard pull. They want your license if you steal it. They will hit you with 10 or more inquiries. To the credit bureau it will be one cause its within a 14 day window. You get screwed when you go to multiple dealers and they all shotgun you.
> 
> I will get pre approved and then offer them to shotgun your credit to see if they can beat your rate.


why would there be 10 inquiries? that i don't understand.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

privateer said:


> why would there be 10 inquiries? that i don't understand.


Google is your friend.


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## SJB (Mar 22, 2017)

Fish-N-Fool said:


> View attachment 359675
> View attachment 359677
> View attachment 359679
> Legend - I also don't give them any information until a deal is made. I monitor my credit very closely (being a Capital One card holder makes it easy as they monitor and update twice monthly). Fortunately, you can pre-qualify for loans (of all sorts not just auto) without actually hitting your credit report. My credit was run exactly once after the signed deal and a deposit was made. For anybody interested, it is going to reduce my credit score a whopping 3 points having them run me for this vehicle. But that will be the only inquiry or activity for me in around 5 years.



That is interesting. Just bought a truck 3 months back. They wanted to run my credit history, I said no. I am paying cash and no need to, and for the same reason, don't want it to affect my credit score.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

SJB said:


> That is interesting. Just bought a truck 3 months back. They wanted to run my credit history, I said no. I am paying cash and no need to, and for the same reason, don't want it to affect my credit score.


It would hurt it very minimally considering you have good credit. Could have paid half down and used the really low interest rates of today to keep more money available to invest or save and also build your credit more. In today's market cash buyers don't get the best deals....
Stealerships rely on the finance man to sell you on crap for pure profit. If you say ahead of time you are paying cash they figure you won't buy extras since they can't roll it into the loan so they will make their money on the price of the car. That's why I like to negotiate the car saying I am interested in paint sealer, scotchguard, vin etching, extended warranty, etc then turn the tables on them.


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## ress (Jan 1, 2008)

Got a credit score of 840, I don't care how many times it gets checked.


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## SJB (Mar 22, 2017)

Legend killer said:


> It would hurt it very minimally considering you have good credit. Could have paid half down and used the really low interest rates of today to keep more money available to invest or save and also build your credit more. In today's market cash buyers don't get the best deals....


I don't disagree with anything you are stating. However, I hate debt and sleep a lot better knowing I own nuthin' to nobuddy'. So everything, with the exception of my house, is paid for, including vehicles, toys, tractor, etc. One could certainly argue my money is better in the market, I get that, but when things take a turn, there is no sweat off my brow.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

So went with my buddy to get a car today. He paid 75$ doc fee that was originally 500$ that is also without them tacking on $425 to the agreed price of car.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Legend your the man! LOL. Was the vehicle in Ohio? Just curious. On another note....cash buyers get same deal as finance buyers 99.99% of the time....if its a used unique vehicle yes most times a dealer will want them to finance it to get their kick back from the financial institution why would anyone owning a business not want that? You act like a dealership is the only one making profits out there. "Stealerships" If they arent making money how do you think they keep the lights on and employees paid?? Dealers do not make ANYTHING near what they used too any more....100% because of the internet....theres usually 20 alike vehicles of the same car "as long as your not shopping something rare" within 200 miles and if you dont like the price of one just move on to the other! So because of this now dealers HAVE to be competitive or else the customer will move on to the next one....OR offer something other dealerships dont....weather thats in service or other helpful ways. We do free pick up and delivery once you own the vehicle for services and other reasons. No charge. Always have a loaner. We will also repair a tire if it can be saved for free and cover up to $150 of a tire replacement if it cannot. So yes, we need to "make profit" to cover a lot of other free things we do as well. BUT we are an extremely fair dealership who lives off of GM bonuses so we try to make our money from GM and not from our daily customers. But Legend, you my friend have it all figured out it seems?


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Scum_Frog said:


> Legend your the man! LOL. Was the vehicle in Ohio? Just curious. On another note....cash buyers get same deal as finance buyers 99.99% of the time....if its a used unique vehicle yes most times a dealer will want them to finance it to get their kick back from the financial institution why would anyone owning a business not want that? You act like a dealership is the only one making profits out there. "Stealerships" If they arent making money how do you think they keep the lights on and employees paid?? Dealers do not make ANYTHING near what they used too any more....100% because of the internet....theres usually 20 alike vehicles of the same car "as long as your not shopping something rare" within 200 miles and if you dont like the price of one just move on to the other! So because of this now dealers HAVE to be competitive or else the customer will move on to the next one....OR offer something other dealerships dont....weather thats in service or other helpful ways. We do free pick up and delivery once you own the vehicle for services and other reasons. No charge. Always have a loaner. We will also repair a tire if it can be saved for free and cover up to $150 of a tire replacement if it cannot. So yes, we need to "make profit" to cover a lot of other free things we do as well. BUT we are an extremely fair dealership who lives off of GM bonuses so we try to make our money from GM and not from our daily customers. But Legend, you my friend have it all figured out it seems?


I dont care what state it is. Government passed a law for the "stealership" as you say to charge a doc dee that all parties are good with. Some states like ca have an agreed 65$ or 85$ doc fee. Average doc fee in OH is 250. Scumfrog please send me a contract with the sensitive information blacked out and I will look it over.

Also if you say your a cash buyer you won't get the same deal on the car itself since the dealership is counting on the finance man to increase profits. Its easier to add stuff into the loan than it is if there is a cash buyer.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

"Average doc fee in Ohio"......MAX Doc fee in Ohio is $250 per state law. Its 10% of the Selling Price. The "DOC FEE" Is not just money to be made for a dealership and is all profit. The state makes a dealership keep paperwork on file for 7 years now. So we have MULTIPLE rooms and rented Storage units to keep these items on file. So YES there's bills to be paid PER the state and the DOC FEE helps pay those items.

Yes the dealership will want to earn profits on the financial side if possible but its always in protective ways for the customer as well. GAP, Warranty, Paint and Fab protection. All this stuff comes as a warranty to the customer its not like the dealership is charging random money for zero reason.

But do note, the nicer and more open a customer is, the wayyyyyyyy BETTER chance your going to get the best deal and future deals as well. A dealership will go out of its way to take care of a customer who helps take care of the dealership. Plain and simple. I do not care what business you own but if a customer comes in as a know it all and has the attitude like your displaying Legend, I wouldnt imagine ANYONE not giving you a snarky attitude back nor giving their best deal. Thats with anything. Just saying.

Oh and your comments about Cali's Doc Fee....yes its $80 starting July 1st....RAISED from its previous $55 so its not declining its rising.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Scum_Frog said:


> "Average doc fee in Ohio"......MAX Doc fee in Ohio is $250 per state law. Its 10% of the Selling Price. The "DOC FEE" Is not just money to be made for a dealership and is all profit. The state makes a dealership keep paperwork on file for 7 years now. So we have MULTIPLE rooms and rented Storage units to keep these items on file. So YES there's bills to be paid PER the state and the DOC FEE helps pay those items.
> 
> Yes the dealership will want to earn profits on the financial side if possible but its always in protective ways for the customer as well. GAP, Warranty, Paint and Fab protection. All this stuff comes as a warranty to the customer its not like the dealership is charging random money for zero reason.
> 
> ...


Today's paints don't require sealing. If you have a good deal you dont need gap. If you do need gap check with insurance company. You don't need scotchguard with today's materials. If you want buy a 10$ can of scotchguard. Fish fool paid nearly a 400$ doc fee. Please send me a blacked out sensitive info on the contract and I will debunk it.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Dannggg man u better be putting your brain to work on something more than this cause u have it all figured out. Just like you stated to another guy "google it" 

"The State of Ohio has authorized licensed new vehicle dealers to charge a documentary service fee for all motor vehicle transactions in an amount not to exceed *$250* or 10% of the sales contract price (whichever is less), excluding tax, title, registration fees and any negative equity adjustment."
Do you know what state he purchased his car in? 
Do you know what orange peal is? Have you ever looked at a NEW vehicle which you state doesnt need it and seen the paint? I'm guessing not if you think today's paint does not need to be sealed lol. Yes go buy a can of scotchguard....which what we sell is not. We sell Dupont. If you dont know what it is look it up. It's by the company who makes GM's paint.....its also by a company who is involved with protecting a lot of other things, including our Military. Also the Tyvek behind your siding. We dont sell some random aftermarket stuff so I'd watch all the Finga-Pointing  On another note, along with getting DuPont installed it comes with a 7 year warranty for both Exterior and interior. Well worth it especially with the prices of most vehicles. Gap is also not for everyone your correct. Doesnt matter on how good the deal is there are still people out there who need it and have used it and saved them. No one can control the market and the value of a vehicle. Life happens, could lose your job and go from driving 20 miles to 100 miles and guess how much faster that cars value will diminish? Think they planned on it?!?! Now the car is 3 years old and has 4-5x the miles on it than you thought and guess what?!?! Got in an accident. Now you owe 3-4k more than insurance is giving you because of mileage. Wish yea paid for Gap probably now I'd reckon?  So yea all in all I agree Gap isnt for everyone but definitely people who need it. Not when they purchase from me though


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## BuckeyeFishin07 (Apr 10, 2017)

Scum_Frog said:


> Dannggg man u better be putting your brain to work on something more than this cause u have it all figured out. Just like you stated to another guy "google it"
> 
> "The State of Ohio has authorized licensed new vehicle dealers to charge a documentary service fee for all motor vehicle transactions in an amount not to exceed *$250* or 10% of the sales contract price (whichever is less), excluding tax, title, registration fees and any negative equity adjustment."
> Do you know what state he purchased his car in?
> Do you know what orange peal is? Have you ever looked at a NEW vehicle which you state doesnt need it and seen the paint? I'm guessing not if you think today's paint does not need to be sealed lol. Yes go buy a can of scotchguard....which what we sell is not. We sell Dupont. If you dont know what it is look it up. It's by the company who makes GM's paint.....its also by a company who is involved with protecting a lot of other things, including our Military. Also the Tyvek behind your siding. We dont sell some random aftermarket stuff so I'd watch all the Finga-Pointing  On another note, along with getting DuPont installed it comes with a 7 year warranty for both Exterior and interior. Well worth it especially with the prices of most vehicles. Gap is also not for everyone your correct. Doesnt matter on how good the deal is there are still people out there who need it and have used it and saved them. No one can control the market and the value of a vehicle. Life happens, could lose your job and go from driving 20 miles to 100 miles and guess how much faster that cars value will diminish? Think they planned on it?!?! Now the car is 3 years old and has 4-5x the miles on it than you thought and guess what?!?! Got in an accident. Now you owe 3-4k more than insurance is giving you because of mileage. Wish yea paid for Gap probably now I'd reckon?  So yea all in all I agree Gap isnt for everyone but definitely people who need it. Not when they purchase from me though


All I have to say is you have way more patience dealing with fools than I do!


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Scum_Frog said:


> Dannggg man u better be putting your brain to work on something more than this cause u have it all figured out. Just like you stated to another guy "google it"
> 
> "The State of Ohio has authorized licensed new vehicle dealers to charge a documentary service fee for all motor vehicle transactions in an amount not to exceed *$250* or 10% of the sales contract price (whichever is less), excluding tax, title, registration fees and any negative equity adjustment."
> Do you know what state he purchased his car in?
> Do you know what orange peal is? Have you ever looked at a NEW vehicle which you state doesnt need it and seen the paint? I'm guessing not if you think today's paint does not need to be sealed lol. Yes go buy a can of scotchguard....which what we sell is not. We sell Dupont. If you dont know what it is look it up. It's by the company who makes GM's paint.....its also by a company who is involved with protecting a lot of other things, including our Military. Also the Tyvek behind your siding. We dont sell some random aftermarket stuff so I'd watch all the Finga-Pointing  On another note, along with getting DuPont installed it comes with a 7 year warranty for both Exterior and interior. Well worth it especially with the prices of most vehicles. Gap is also not for everyone your correct. Doesnt matter on how good the deal is there are still people out there who need it and have used it and saved them. No one can control the market and the value of a vehicle. Life happens, could lose your job and go from driving 20 miles to 100 miles and guess how much faster that cars value will diminish? Think they planned on it?!?! Now the car is 3 years old and has 4-5x the miles on it than you thought and guess what?!?! Got in an accident. Now you owe 3-4k more than insurance is giving you because of mileage. Wish yea paid for Gap probably now I'd reckon?  So yea all in all I agree Gap isnt for everyone but definitely people who need it. Not when they purchase from me though


I would not buy from you. To much bs. I would walk.


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## Scum_Frog (Apr 3, 2009)

Now thats funny! I dont BS when it comes to selling a vehicle. It effects the person and their family. I give my honest opinion to everyone thats for the good of the customer not for me. I have turned down selling a vehicle to customers before because it would not be in their best interest and now have them as loyal customers. Thats why I have a awesome repeat business. Take care of the customer and they take care of you. I would love to see where I have given you BS besides answering your questions with actual answers and not what you "think" is right. You have left your impact on everyone in this chat Legend after your first idiocy comment about my user name and profiling me so im not too concerned that you you I am the one with too much BS lol.

Buckeye I shall take your comment and use it. I am bowing out of this conversation. I think my point has came across to the members in this chat.


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## Shad Rap (Nov 10, 2010)

Lundy said:


> Car dealers are in business to make money, not to provide a charitable service to the public. They don't build those nice big lots and buildings and employ all of those people by making a couple hundered bucks per car sold. No matter how it wrapped up, incentives, discounts, long term loans, add ons, trade-ins, finance and all of the above combined, they make thier money.
> 
> Shad rap, saying you always get payyoff or higher is really funny, they got you on the other end then. You don't get to beat the system, doesn't work that way except in your mind.
> 
> Privateer, most people don't keep a vehicle for 20 years so you are statistically irrelevent in the analysis. Most live upside down on loans for most of thier lives on every car, and boat loan, any purchase they make that doesn't appreciate in value, just a reality of life.


Doesn't matter where they get me...they're getting you off the top anyway...I'm always happy with the deal and that's all that matters...I don't have a problem with someone making a buck...that's what makes the world go round...we're all happy.


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Legend killer said:


> I would not buy from you. To much bs. I would walk.


And he would gladly open the door so it didn’t hit you in the ass on the way out. Dang you are full of yourself.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Just looked online for a 2018+ truck with low miles, prices are higher than a couple weeks ago


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## ruffhunter (Dec 10, 2005)

i had been researching Tacomas back in february/march, checking ALL of the cincy, col,spgfield,dayton to richmonds dealers through last month. I read a post on glocktalk from a guy working at a toyota dealer somewhere that trucks were selling like crazy.
Well That abundance of tacomas massively dried up during the virus at these ohio dealers. Was the right time to buy, 0% financing and hard up dealers. I checked the tacoma forum and if you get 10 to especially 15% off sticker that a good deal.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Well prices are way more now than they were last month.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...onavirus-pandemic-new-trucks-suvs/3297869001/
So used full size trucks are up around $3k and mid sizes around 2k. And the dealer still charging a bogus doc fee....


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## stampman60 (Jan 12, 2015)

Legend killer said:


> https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...onavirus-pandemic-new-trucks-suvs/3297869001/
> So used full size trucks are up around $3k and mid sizes around 2k. And the dealer still charging a bogus doc fee....


supply and demand. Median housing in my area is going $ 10k to $20k over asking with 5 to 10 bidders. Neighbor in real estate is making a fortune.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

I dont understand why the consumer is paying these prices. Jeff wyler commercial is airing saying this is the best time to buy a used car, lol.


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## stampman60 (Jan 12, 2015)

Legend killer said:


> I dont understand why the consumer is paying these prices. Jeff wyler commercial is airing saying this is the best time to buy a used car, lol.


best time for HIM


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## Fishinaddict (Sep 23, 2014)

ruffhunter said:


> i had been researching Tacomas back in february/march, checking ALL of the cincy, col,spgfield,dayton to richmonds dealers through last month. I read a post on glocktalk from a guy working at a toyota dealer somewhere that trucks were selling like crazy.
> Well That abundance of tacomas massively dried up during the virus at these ohio dealers. Was the right time to buy, 0% financing and hard up dealers. I checked the tacoma forum and if you get 10 to especially 15% off sticker that a good deal.


The new Taco's are made in Mexico! Buyer beware


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## Fish-N-Fool (Apr 12, 2004)

Yea I had the Ford dealership where I bought my 2016 was calling me 6 weeks ago trying to get my truck. They know it is low miles (only 30k) and with the situation if they can get people to sell or trade on a new model they'd make a pretty penny on the sale and financing of my truck. 

Unlike the average truck owner in the US I actually keep trucks and drive them at least 12 years minimum so I have no interest. The sale manager even called back after I told them as much. Started talking about how he could make me the sweetest deal, etc., but like I said I expect to drive this 16 model until at least 2028 and likely into the 2030's. I may only need to purchase one more truck in my lifetime and I'm early 40's.


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## stampman60 (Jan 12, 2015)

May I purchases a new vehicle. last week they contact me wanting me to trade in on a new one. What the offer me for the one I just purchases was a joke. depreciation they said. I would rather go to a non lube Proctologist than talk to a car sales person.


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## overcheck (Dec 13, 2010)

Legend killer said:


> I dont understand why the consumer is paying these prices. Jeff wyler commercial is airing saying this is the best time to buy a used car, lol.


Just buy a new truck scum frog hooked me up It was very easy took less than hour and out the door with a new 2500 Hd


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

overcheck said:


> Just buy a new truck scum frog hooked me up It was very easy took less than hour and out the door with a new 2500 Hd


Congrats. It’s cool that they are having the no doc fee special all week too.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

overcheck said:


> Just buy a new truck scum frog hooked me up It was very easy took less than hour and out the door with a new 2500 Hd


I am sure the dealer was excited to sell you something that excited.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

bobk said:


> Congrats. It’s cool that they are having the no doc fee special all week too.


$65K truck or more. How much was your doc fee?


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## UNCLEMIKE (Jul 23, 2014)

Had to laugh... got a notice from Subaru... 0% interest for five years nothing down on 2020 models. Only a fee of $16.00 a month per $1,000 financed. Do they think people are stupid? They must be.


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## stampman60 (Jan 12, 2015)

UNCLEMIKE said:


> Had to laugh... got a notice from Subaru... 0% interest for five years nothing down on 2020 models. Only a fee of $16.00 a month per $1,000 financed. Do they think people are stupid? They must be.


$50,000 vehicle. $16.00 per 1000 $800.00 per month $ 9600.00 per yr. $48,000 total cost.examlpe $50,000 at 4% $921 per month $11,052.00 PER YR. $55,260.00 total


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

stampman60 said:


> $50,000 vehicle. $16.00 per 1000 $800.00 per month $ 9600.00 per yr. $48,000 total cost.examlpe $50,000 at 4% $921 per month $11,052.00 PER YR. $55,260.00 total


What a joke, if you financed it you would get a lower sale price. LOL


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

LOL at this 125$ dealer doc fee. I still will cross it out and write 75. This BS fee is pure profit for the dealer. Takes no time at all for the secretary to handle this task.


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## RiparianRanger (Nov 18, 2015)

Legend killer said:


> What a joke, if you financed it you would get a lower sale price. LOL


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

RiparianRanger said:


>


Guess I was right


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Legend killer said:


> $65K truck or more. How much was your doc fee?


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

bobk said:


> View attachment 372385


I am calling bull since sunfrog claimed the doc fee is a state law!


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## ruffhunter (Dec 10, 2005)

*"Toyota has* been *building Tacoma* trucks at its Baja California plant in *Mexico* since 2004. Last month, *Toyota's* newer facility in Guanajuato *began* assembly of the *Tacoma*. Its production capacity for the *Tacoma in Mexico will* be about 266,000 per year." autoblog.com 1-18-20

Plus san antonio tx till 2021 when it phases out the tacoma for full time, full size line. Since 2004 in Me he CO debunks your warning! Im not seeing any mexican complaints. My 2004 was flawless. I doubt Toyota is going to run a half butt operation without strong oversight of employees and standards.




Fishinaddict said:


> The new Taco's are made in Mexico! Buyer beware


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

so I just called out a dealer with their highly inflated truck price. looking at a 19 silverado.

"thanks for getting back to me so quickly. With the highly inflated truck price bubble bursting with wholesale prices dropping the first time in 17 weeks that is not very competitive. I am talking to a couple dealers in the area with an LT double cab and custom crew cab wanting less with similar mileage. Those are 19's and new bodystyle like this one not the LD versions. "


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## OrangeMilk (Oct 13, 2012)

Legend killer said:


> You're going to be upside down on your loan as soon as you pull off the lot.


LMAO!!! Same as 99% of all car sales. No need to be grumpy because a guy is buying a new truck and you aren’t.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

OrangeMilk said:


> LMAO!!! Same as 99% of all car sales. No need to be grumpy because a guy is buying a new truck and you aren’t.


your not upside down putting down 20%. I wonder what % of people can actually afford their truck?


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

Legend killer said:


> your not upside down putting down 20%. I wonder what % of people can actually afford their truck?


It seems like most here can afford a new truck. Heck you’ve been looking since the virus started. You keep slamming people’s personal choices yet you’re the guy that doesn’t have a truck yet. Ironic. 

You can’t make this crap up.


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## One guy and a boat (Aug 8, 2018)

OrangeMilk said:


> LMAO!!! Same as 99% of all car sales. No need to be grumpy because a guy is buying a new truck and you aren’t.


Perfect response

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


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## crappiedude (Mar 12, 2006)

I guess I don't get it, if ya want a new/used truck (or car) just go out and buy one. 
I always have a price in my mind as to what I'm going to pay when I walk out the door. Once I find a vehicle, I look at the options and figure out what's a fair (or reasonable price). If the price comes in at or very near that price, I buy it. 
The dealer is in it to make money. I already know what I'm paying and if his price is in line we got a deal, if not I move on. 
They can add all the fees, make up anything else they want and add it on there, I don't care. 
I know what I'm paying.


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## Karl Wolf (Apr 26, 2020)

Used trucks are definitely higher. Got my mouth ripped out on a 2011 Tundra.
Wish I could have waited for a better deal but I only had a week to look around for a pickup for the best price.


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## Rocknut (Apr 17, 2015)

I bought two trucks in May a 2019 2500hd with a reading aluminum service body and a 2020 4500 with 17' box. I paid a fair price for both. The dealer had the most work style trucks around. All the dealers have certain fees they add on in the end. Didn't matter a whole lot or wasn't a deal breaker for me. I was more concerned with the final number on each truck less the trade-in. In the end I just wrote them a check for both and went on my way.


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## Junebug2320 (Apr 23, 2010)

Bought a new 2019 FX4 Supercrew in Feb. Ford had a $7500 rebate plus I used the A plan. Really wanted a 250 but they didnt offer any rebates on those. 


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