# smokeless muzzleloading?



## doegirl (Feb 24, 2005)

The Savage MLll, the ONLY muzzleloader I know of that can safely handle smokeless charges, looks tempting... However, I'm unsure of Ohio Law regarding the use of smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. Anybody know? It's not worth getting if all I can legally shoot out of it is a black powder substitute for hunting.


----------



## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I have 2 of the savage ML11's.

They are legal in Ohio and another 20 + states as well.

Very safe, and easy to use. An easy 200 yd gun with sub 1" accuracy at 100 yds and 3" at 200

They shoot great and are a breeze to clean when you decide you want to clean one. You do not need to be in any hurry to clean them like you do with other MZ's shooting the common MZ powders. I put mine away uncleaned at the end of last year and didn't touch it until a couple of weeks ago with no issues at all.

I retired my knights and bought a second Savage for my son to use this year.

The Accutrigger is the very, very good and another safety feature. 

I would only suggest the SS/Laminate stock version. These are a little on the heavy side but it serves to reduce felt recoil very well. The synthetic stocks are too flimsy, they call them Tupperware stocks.

If you want to shoot one prior to purchase let me know.

Kim


----------



## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Check out www.modernmuzzleloader.com

They have a smokeless forum


----------



## kmb411 (Feb 24, 2005)

In the next 5 years, Pyrodex and smoked powder will be obsolete, except for the diehards that shoot "old fashion" smoke poles.


----------



## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

I seriously doubt that's going to happen, but that's just me. The Savage has been around for quite a while now and nobody else has come out with another. I've had mixed feeling on the smokeless muzzleloaders. I realize the effectiveness and other advantages. But, I also know that many people get careless with their powder measuring when hunting. I don't have any first hand experience with one, but I do know that smokeless powder isn't something to get careless with. I've always assumed this is why no other manufactures have followed suit. Either way, it sure would be a fun gun to have.


----------



## doegirl (Feb 24, 2005)

kmb411 said:


> In the next 5 years, Pyrodex and smoked powder will be obsolete, except for the diehards that shoot "old fashion" smoke poles.


I don't know about that. The Savage has been out for about 6 years and has had a pretty cool reception. No other manufacturers have been racing out to produce their own smokeless muzzleloader. Why? I think alot of it has to do with fear of what stupid people might and will do with the gun. Pouring copious amounts of the wrong type smokeless powder to make it a supermagnum blah blah. I definitely see the potential for abuse and injuries. And so do the lawyers representing gun manufacturers. I think smokeless will eventually catch on, but at much slower rate than thought.


----------



## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

I've been hunting with MZ's almost exclusively for the last 12-15 years.

I was ready for an update, my Knights were getting a little old and were rated for 120 gr loose black powder equivalent. I was intrigued by the 150 gr "magnum" load capabilities of some of the newer guns.

My long search lead me to the Savage MZ as the best fit for me.

Along with good accuracy and power I had to be convinced that my selection would be a safe gun. There have been so many guns from BPI (CVA, Traditions, Winchester) with the Spanish import barrels blowing up, people getting seriously hurt and lawsuits that I wanted to be sure of what I was buying and shooting, especially since my son would also be shooting them also. One of my original reasons for purchasing Knights was because of the double safety system.

There were 3 manufacturers that offer mass produced guns that I would consider, Knight, TC, and Savage. Knight and TC offer really well made, tested, safe, MZ's, and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase and shoot any gun offered by them.

In Ohio with Smokeless powder being allowed opened up the Savage option. There are a lot of misconceptions about the use of smokeless powders in a MZ and how smokeless compares in handling and safety to more common MZ propellants like Pyrodex and T7. A recommended load for the savage MZ operates at a lower pressure than any 3 pellet load of Pyrodex or T7. Due to the way Pyrodex and T7 ingnite (fast burn) the velocities are less than an equivalent pressure with a smokeless (slower sustained burn) load.

The Savage barrel has been proof tested to 129,000 psi. The average recommend load is in the 25,000 -30,000 psi range. Three pellets put you around 27,000 -29,000 psi. Tests have been conducted double loading powder and bullets in the savage with no barrel failures. If you doubt the pressure comparison shoot them side by side. shoot a 3 pellet load and then shot one of my Savage's and you'll see the felt recoil difference easily. NOTE: THE MANUFACTURERS OF PYRODEX AN T7 ALLOW NO MORE THAN A 2 PELLET LOAD!!! 

I major concern with anyone the shoots MZ's is not fully seating the bullet and leaving a space that could lead to barrel failure. With Smokeless it really can't happen, it requires it to be under compression to ignite. It I leave my bullet off of the powder load by a few inches the gun just won't fire. I view this as another huge safety issue.

One other very attractive feature was cleanup. It is VERY easy to maintain unlike shooting corrosive powders.

Smokeless MZ's are like any other gun you need to use them as intended.


----------



## Walleye 3 (Jul 2, 2005)

I don't own one but my best friend does and it is a dream to shot. It is very accurate and easy to clean. We shot his througha chronograph and his loads with 300 grain XTP mag tips shot great and compair to a 338 rifle. I have thought of going to one but I already have to many muzzle loaders at this time. I still like getting out with my old Lyman.


----------



## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

I have been watching the Savage Smokeless MZ with great interest also. I reload and have pounds of the recommended powders. I remember that the only drawback to these is there was a certain part had to be replaced every so many shots.If I remember right the particular part was not that expensive. Maybe somebody with a couple seasons under thier belt with these can comment.


----------



## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

There is a replaceable vent liner that you replace in the breech plug after an undetermined number of shots. It really depends on your powder of choice and the erosion that occurs. It is really nothing more than a allen head screw with a .033-.035 hole drilled through the center of it. It threads into the breech plug

There are some after market hardened liners that are lasting 200-300 or more shots before needing to be replaced.

Vent liners are not expensive, I bought 5 for around $15, that should give me about 15 years of shooting for me.


----------



## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

http://www.savageshooters.net/Muzzleloading.html Thanks for the info Lundy. I found the preceding web site that has a lot of good info on this particular model. To anyone interested in this gun this web site is packed with info on it.


----------

