# Management thoughts



## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

So it's one of those things to ponder....but you always hear about the good ole days...so is it really true? Was the fishing really better around here back 20 or 30 years ago???...has Erie improved or gotten worse?? Used to have salmon instead of steelhead...ladue before white perch... Milton before it got drained?? West Branch before it was a trophy musky fishery...do we harvest too much now? Or is it not enough?? Is there too much pressure now on our public waters or did the techniques just improve that much?..has management let us down or in the end are they really doing their part?? What are your thoughts?


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## Bprice1031 (Mar 13, 2016)

Your opening a big can of worms Bob.


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## AnthHol (Jul 24, 2007)

In my opinion West Branch isn't a "Trophy Muskie Water" there isn't a lake in Ohio capable of holding a true trophy muskie population as far as muskie's are concerned. It's a great fishery none the less. It has improved and the numbers are outstanding because of the money raised by Ohio muskie fisherman for the minnow fund to stock advanced fingerlings. The concept of catch and release is also a huge reason why the fishing is a good as it is. IMO the idea of protecting resources and having enough to go around falls just as squarely on the shoulders of those who use and fish for the resource as it does the people making the rules and regulations. Especially when you are dealing with fish that have no natural reproduction.

I wasn't around for the "golden age" of Lake Erie from what I hear but I think it's still safe to say it's a world class Walleye and Smallie fishery.

I don't think too much pressure is really possible. Sure it might change what works and what is needed to do to catch fish, but they are still catching fish all over the state regularly. Less pressure means less people fishing and hunting which means less money spent and used to protect the resources that we value so much.

I rarely fish for anything that gets kept. All my muskie fishing is CPR and always has been and always will be. This being the case I wouldn't venture to ever accuse anyone of harvesting too many fish because I don't know their situation. I leave that determination up to the people that study the health and populations of these certain fish and change catch and possession limits accordingly.


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

Ok..I get what you're saying..the branch will never hold a population of 60 inchers but for Ohio it's pretty good...my question here is do the muskie's make the lake as a whole a better fishery ? Or would other species thrive more without them?


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

They are on a shad diet mainly, sure the occasional bass or walleye gets eaten but probably a weak, diseased or injured fish, as far as forage goes for them the majority of their diet is shad.


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

Ya I also understand that...but because they consume a quantity of that does it make it harder for a decent population of Crappie to exist?..what about bass? Would the overall quality of other species improve without them or are they actually helping to keep the balance?


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## Osmerus (Dec 5, 2012)

I say the fishing is better nowadays compared to 20 to 30 years ago esp on Erie. Contaminate levels are down in erie fish. Id rather have steelies than salmon. Walleye numbers for now are great in Erie. Tons of smallies and perch. The good ole days of erie i would love to go back and see would be before Europeans came to the great lakes. Fish populations were def. differnt back then than now. More fish and a wider variety of fish in Erie than now. Tons of huge sturgeon more musky, blue pike, lakers and saugers to name a few. Human development and commercial fishing in the 1800s to 1900s had a huge impact on erie. We are still trying to recover the lake, its got a long ways to go.


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## Willyfield (Apr 1, 2007)

Growing up a couple miles from Lake Erie and a couple hundred yards from the Grand River, I can tell you the salmonid fishing is definitely different! I used to fish cohos, browns and steelheads going back to the mid 1970's. The fish would start coming near shore, right about now, back then. Now, for better or worse, it is a winter fishery. I don't like it, but that's another thread, I suppose.
Not many bass back then, but we never really targeted them too much though. The perch and walleye were very close to shore. You could catch a lot of perch and white bass from the piers back in those days. Think cane pole close. We used to fish walleyes off the Rayon plant in a 12' aluminum car topper launched off Fairport beach . We rarely went more than 300 yards off shore. When they were constructing the discharge pipes for the Perry power plant they had a derik set up. Fishing for walleye around that produced every time.The water then was a lot murkier, and not crystal clear like now. No zebra mussels or pesky gobies which make near shore perch fishing impossible at times. The white bass used to run up the Grand in the spring making staying in school until the end of the day difficult. I don't think they do that anymore.


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## Dovans (Nov 15, 2011)

I fished Erie 40 yrs ago and I think its lot different. Throw out a Erie dearies bring in a fish.. Now you have to troll for them..


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

Ok so fisheries change due to a lot of outside influences ... Erie got zebra mussles..got cleaner water and boom things change dramatically over time...but in the end it's cleaner than it used to be so that's good... however has the ecosystem gotten better for the fish but worse for the fisherman?...is there a better way to manage it?...I don't fish Erie much at all but I do hear a lot of old stories of greatness that you just don't hear now. Where did the burbot go? Are sturgeon making a comeback? The blue pike may be gone forever but are walleye thriving more now than ever?


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## Willyfield (Apr 1, 2007)

westbranchbob said:


> Ok so fisheries change due to a lot of outside influences ... Erie got zebra mussles..got cleaner water and boom things change dramatically over time...but in the end it's cleaner than it used to be so that's good... however has the ecosystem gotten better for the fish but worse for the fisherman?...is there a better way to manage it?...I don't fish Erie much at all but I do hear a lot of old stories of greatness that you just don't hear now. Where did the burbot go? Are sturgeon making a comeback? The blue pike may be gone forever but are walleye thriving more now than ever?


The limit used to be 10 on walleye, and none on perch if memory serves. Then perch limit was 50, now 30.


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## bdawg (Apr 14, 2009)

Better or worse really depends on what you like to fish for. Zebra mussels have made the Portage Lakes great for redeared sunfish. I'm happy about that! There are more people practicing catch and release, which leaves more fish to catch, but the population of Ohio is greater, so there's more fishing pressure. More catfish in these lakes because of the state's stocking efforts. I don't like to fish for them or eat them, so I'd rather not see them stocked anywhere. They eat the other fish that I like to catch. I'd prefer to just see native fish everywhere. Do things in the lakes to improve native fish reproduction. Plenty of non-native fish that impact our lakes. Carp were imported over a century ago, and they dominate every lake. They muddy up every shallow bay every spring! I'd like to see what a lake looks like without carp. Decreased pollution in the lakes can only help the population. Even if it does move the fish further offshore. I wonder how big the dead zone was in Lake Erie 50 years ago before they started measuring it? I wonder what the mix of fish would be like in Lake Erie with blue pike and large sturgeon. Same for our streams. Was there a native trout fishery in the Chagrin and Grand Rivers before the cities were built and the water became too warm for trout in the summer?


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

Ok I like where you are going with the native species thing..however...most lakes around here are man made...so at that point should they be managed for what we want to fish for?...I mean should lakes be classified..this is a muskie lake..that's a bass lake... would that be Better?...it's kind of that way now...but are they fighting against themselves trying to manage multi species?


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## Willyfield (Apr 1, 2007)

bdawg said:


> Better or worse really depends on what you like to fish for. Zebra mussels have made the Portage Lakes great for redeared sunfish. I'm happy about that! There are more people practicing catch and release, which leaves more fish to catch, but the population of Ohio is greater, so there's more fishing pressure. More catfish in these lakes because of the state's stocking efforts. I don't like to fish for them or eat them, so I'd rather not see them stocked anywhere. They eat the other fish that I like to catch. I'd prefer to just see native fish everywhere. Do things in the lakes to improve native fish reproduction. Plenty of non-native fish that impact our lakes. Carp were imported over a century ago, and they dominate every lake. They muddy up every shallow bay every spring! I'd like to see what a lake looks like without carp. Decreased pollution in the lakes can only help the population. Even if it does move the fish further offshore. I wonder how big the dead zone was in Lake Erie 50 years ago before they started measuring it? I wonder what the mix of fish would be like in Lake Erie with blue pike and large sturgeon. Same for our streams. Was there a native trout fishery in the Chagrin and Grand Rivers before the cities were built and the water became too warm for trout in the summer?


I never heard of dead zones until the 90's. Before zebra mussels the lake was murkier which prevented massive algae blooms. As algae dies it decays and is eaten by bacteria that use oxygen which takes oxygen away from fish creating a dead zone. Back pre mussel days there were no massive algae blooms like there is now. We had three foot vis (if that) back then.


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## brad crappie (Sep 29, 2015)

All u guys make great points on west branch definitely the crappy is bad for quality fish ! Matt wolf said lack of shad something is going on maybe the musky that are not native is hurting it guys! The catfish are cheap to raise that's why they do it! I want more redear stocked , they love zebra mussels so why not stock them! Also they will not out compete other native fishes! Am not a steelhead guy cause to many a holes are on the rivers but they should stock the ones run in the Fall I think they were Londons.


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

Just going to throw this out there. 

According to a survey by the US Fish and Wildlife Service, the number of people who actively fish grew by 11% between 2006 and 2011.

The next survey report is due in 2018 (they do it every 5 years).


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## K gonefishin (May 4, 2004)

westbranchbob said:


> Ya I also understand that...but because they consume a quantity of that does it make it harder for a decent population of Crappie to exist?..what about bass? Would the overall quality of other species improve without them or are they actually helping to keep the balance?


It depends some lakes just flourish with specific species, Ladue is an excellent largemouth lake, mosquito does well with crappie and walleye and bass is pretty good too. Portage lakes are great bass lakes as well. Every lakes makeup is different and different species do better, they do try to manage certain lakes that see high returns on stocked fish that grow and potentially reproduce. Habitat plays a large role here obviously but lakes that can maintain a good amount of a specific species they will try to manage that lake so it does flourish. Some lakes like Clearfork are good bass and musky lakes. As far as branch is concerned musky obviously do well their so they will keep that program, east fork on the other hand does not do well i believe they stopped stocking it.


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## FAB (May 26, 2013)

I caught my first walleye out of Lake Erie 62 years ago from a 16 ft. Lyman near Chic Island. Things are different today for sure. The lake had a little more green cast to it. For some reason most of the fish we caught were in the 3 to 4 lb range not many over that. There were no charter boats and if I saw more than three boats in a day fishing , that was a lot. No one trolled for fish it was all cast or drift and there were very few options when it came to lures. My fishing friend Dan Galbiencia had not yet invented the Erie Dearie. We had no radios , no fish finder or depth finder. We generally kept our catch in a burlap bag with a chunk of ice. No cubes just a big 25 lb chunk and you always had an ice pick. So with just that scenario of very few fishermen, all poorly equipped vs. the hundreds of thousands of specialized boats with 3 or 4 guys in each one you can see that the lake has to have suffered from pressure in the new down imaging, side view graphic image combo gps fish finders and thousands of different baits available today. But we caught fish and a lot of them because I suppose there were a lot of them. The change today is obvious thousands more of better equipped fishermen are going to reduce the numbers.


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

K gonefishin said:


> It depends some lakes just flourish with specific species, Ladue is an excellent largemouth lake, mosquito does well with crappie and walleye and bass is pretty good too. Portage lakes are great bass lakes as well. Every lakes makeup is different and different species do better, they do try to manage certain lakes that see high returns on stocked fish that grow and potentially reproduce. Habitat plays a large role here obviously but lakes that can maintain a good amount of a specific species they will try to manage that lake so it does flourish. Some lakes like Clearfork are good bass and musky lakes. As far as branch is concerned musky obviously do well their so they will keep that program, east fork on the other hand does not do well i believe they stopped stocking it.



Exactly my point...portage lakes has great bass but is not known for Walleye or pike or muskie...do the bass do better in the absence of other top predators? Is mosquito so much better for Walleye because it is so heavily stocked? Also no muskie there but flat head and pike so why? Is it the weeds? Is all forage base? Would mosquito be better off managed for Panfish like Crappie and gills and perch? It just get caught up sometimes wondering why the stock the species they do in specific lakes...?


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## buckzye11 (Jul 16, 2009)

I think another factor to why they stock what they do where is the size and average depths of the inland lakes. Bigger lakes in either surface area or volume get bigger predators stocked.
Portage and Mogadore used to get Musky, but don't now... just guessing but I think it has to do with competition among the other fish in the lake, which smaller lakes can't handle as well. I know they could just stock a smaller number, but foucusing on species specific lakes allows them to concentrate their efforts better.
Add me to the no more catfish stocking petition. There will still be a good enough amount of them without stocking, but they may stock them for other reasons like balancing lakes out, I don't know, but I'd take that money and put it toward another fish like Wipers.
Most of the Panfish are established and benefit from bigger predators.
I'd also be for introducing Redear to the lakes that don't have them... they have a unlimited food supply of mussels.


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## twistedcatfish1971 (Jul 21, 2013)

Here is a picture of 2 guys hauling away 5 carp out of westbranch just a week ago by rock springs road. I got numbers on these fish and it was 42 lbs. I'm not a fan of carp and agree that they do muddy up the bays in spring but I don't see them being a problem atleast at westbranch. Now I can be wrong as I'm no expert with carp.


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## ErieBoy75 (Aug 4, 2009)

I never fished inland in the old days but I sure like Muskies at WB now. Erie has changed several times in the past 6 decades. We caught smallies and perch in the 60's. I was busy with school in the 70's, but we all know how the walleyes took off in 80s. That was great. Drift/cast and nice fish in the lower 20" range. And perching was great. I started night fishing in the 90's and spring and fall were a blast. Then the big girls showed up. Wow. I say Erie is as good as ever. Good topic WB bob.


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## REY298 (Apr 3, 2014)

Willyfield said:


> The limit used to be 10 on walleye, and none on perch if memory serves. Then perch limit was 50, now 30.


I remember those days! Both the size of the eyes and the numbers! The perch were great as well. Not sure why the change. Your guess is good as mine, but as the water improved and it is better in clarity, then came the restrictions on the LAKE; statewide! Back in the 70's and early 80's the water around Ashtabula was unbelievably polluted with stuff from Ashtabula Power and Light and Union Carbide that my lures wouldn't even break the surface!


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## MadMac (May 2, 2005)

westbranchbob said:


> Exactly my point...portage lakes has great bass but is not known for Walleye or pike or muskie...do the bass do better in the absence of other top predators? Is mosquito so much better for Walleye because it is so heavily stocked? Also no muskie there but flat head and pike so why? Is it the weeds? Is all forage base? Would mosquito be better off managed for Panfish like Crappie and gills and perch? It just get caught up sometimes wondering why the stock the species they do in specific lakes...?


Some of the best inland eye, perch, and crappie fishing in the world is located in WI and MN lakes famous for muskie fishing. You seem to keep hinting that the muskie in WB are causing other species harm.


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## Lundy (Apr 5, 2004)

Clear water usually means less fertile water. A body of water can support no more life that it has food to support.


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

MadMac said:


> Some of the best inland eye, perch, and crappie fishing in the world is located in WI and MN lakes famous for muskie fishing. You seem to keep hinting that the muskie in WB are causing other species harm.


...so it's just something I've heard a lot....you have the People that like the muskie's and the people that don't...I just wonder sometimes if they actually help by keeping the population in check or if they hurt by competition of forage base...I like the occasional monster bite...I treat them well....I just wonder....like do they steelhead out compete another species in Erie?....would mosquito be an even better fishery without flathead?..or would lakes like mogadore get better if it was managed with norther pike or wipers maybe?


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## Willyfield (Apr 1, 2007)

Lundy said:


> Clear water usually means less fertile water. A body of water can support no more life that it has food to support.


One of the first things I learned managing my own private ponds. They actually make a device called a secchi dish that you use to make sure your water is not too clear. Clear water means no plankton.


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## Chuck T Mechling (May 27, 2017)

Ladue needs to get rid of some of the Carp. They are taking over that lake and all of the weeds and Cover that was there a few years ago is now gone. Anything that hatches gets eaten by the white perch or any other preditor fish because they have no where to hide. Wish they would understand that. And anyone that has fished it should know where I'm coming from. 

Plus I've noticed that water levels are constantly changing which is never good for the Fish. A lake that drops 6 feet like Ladue can mess everything up. 

Unfortunately I've heard stories of people basically keeping everything they catch. Especially the Steelheads. But they don't normally reproduce so it doesn't bother me much any more. Either way they get raked off their beds after the first good rain in the Spring. Sad sight to see


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## Randolph L Schultz (May 22, 2017)

westbranchbob said:


> So it's one of those things to ponder....but you always hear about the good ole days...so is it really true? Was the fishing really better around here back 20 or 30 years ago???...has Erie improved or gotten worse?? Used to have salmon instead of steelhead...ladue before white perch... Milton before it got drained?? West Branch before it was a trophy musky fishery...do we harvest too much now? Or is it not enough?? Is there too much pressure now on our public waters or did the techniques just improve that much?..has management let us down or in the end are they really doing their part?? What are your thoughts?


fished west branch for the first time today,,was out there from 3 to about 9,,did not get one bite..that seems to be the story for all these akron area lakes,,really under stocked.. ie: portage lakes,,nimisila,,berlin,,wingfoot,,etc.,,fishing was alot better in the early 80's...alot more people doing it now,,but the stocking rates are either the same or less of each species...
my partner and i are thing about getting a membership for Sandy lake,,im thinking these odnr lakes are a joke...i wouldn't mind paying a 700 dollar a year member fee if we can go out and consistantly catch fish!
I'm thinking public venues are a dying breed.....


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## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

My opinion after 35 years of fishing......

Everything changes

I grew up fishing portage lakes and erie then west branch and Berlin sometimes piedmont and now mosquito.

And every lake in NE ohio.

They all go through cycles. I fished erie in the 80s for eyes and had a 10 fish limit it 10 cast and 30 in plus eyes in the last few years. And 100 smallmouth days in the 90s. 14.5 in perch in fairport. West branch with 14 inch crappie and huge musky. Portage with 12 inch red ears. Mogadore with 30 inch cats. Grand River with 30 inch steelhead.

Fishing presure and environmental changes effects everything.

I am not a biologist.


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## Willyfield (Apr 1, 2007)

We are treading water on population growth in Ohio, and it seems this younger generation is not fishing as much as we did back in the 1980's, so I am not sure where the extra fishing pressure is coming from. The trout run so late now that you have a choice, deer hunting or fishing. My 18 year old chooses hunting almost every time. So does my young nephew. Bring back the fall steelies! Fishing in Sept is a lot better than fishing in Nov!!!


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

I've been around for the steelhead program from London to Manistee....I've heard the switch was made to improve return rates...not sure if that really happened or not..however...I will say the pressure has definitely gone up in that department..witch is both good and bad....the fish come in later and seem to leave much faster in the spring...but in the end still fun to have around...but are they out competing the walleye in the Eastern basin?...and would browns be better? Or maybe Lakers? What would it take to get walleye running up the grand in solid numbers?


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## Whaler (Nov 16, 2004)

Brad Crappie, Lake Milton has a lot of Muskies and some are plenty big and it is loaded with shad so the Muskies there aren't hurting the shad population any.


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

this is just my opinion but here it goes lake erie smallmouth do great because the water is cleaner plus almost everyone throws them back in , walleye did better 30 years ago after the lake started to clean up but wasn't full of zebra mussles and I can remember when there was no limits on perch , what changed more than anything is electronics 30 years ago there were no gps units and most fishermen didn't use a locator either what you can buy today for $79 would be worse and cost $600 plus just what we are doing here talking on a computer that's something that didn't exist 30 years ago so unless you belonged to a club you didn't share the information like today,, mosquito lake walleye limit 10 30 years ago very few perch plus they stocked so many fish back then you almost had to try to not catch a fish in may or june , Milton is better for walleye now than before but not as good for muskie at one time it held the world record for the largest caught by a woman and also the largest caught through the ice . only fished west branch twice but I know it was considered the best muskie lake in ohio for quit a few years . that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I think mostly its todays electronics.


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## brad crappie (Sep 29, 2015)

Whaler said:


> Brad Crappie, Lake Milton has a lot of Muskies and some are plenty big and it is loaded with shad so the Muskies there aren't hurting the shad population any.


All I know is the branch has something going on the crappies are not growing well! Like I said the biologist Matt wolf said a lack of shad! I know Berlin and the branch drop the water level every year that's not good for weed growth! Milton I will start fishing they drop there's to!


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

brad crappie said:


> All I know is the branch has something going on the crappies are not growing well! Like I said the biologist Matt wolf said a lack of shad! I know Berlin and the branch drop the water level every year that's not good for weed growth! Milton I will start fishing they drop there's to!


Curious.... while I agree the overall size is smaller now than in years past the branch now has one of the strongest white bass populations I have ever seen...large ones to boot..why are the Crappie struggling while the white bass flourish... competition perhaps???


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## brad crappie (Sep 29, 2015)

westbranchbob said:


> Curious.... while I agree the overall size is smaller now than in years past the branch now has one of the strongest white bass populations I have ever seen...large ones to boot..why are the Crappie struggling while the white bass flourish... competition perhaps???





westbranchbob said:


> Curious.... while I agree the overall size is smaller now than in years past the branch now has one of the strongest white bass populations I have ever seen...large ones to boot..why are the Crappie struggling while the white bass flourish... competition perhaps???


Yes that's not good they would definitely out compete the less active anal crappie any day! I forgot that they been established in there!


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## BassMagic (Oct 17, 2014)

westbranchbob said:


> So it's one of those things to ponder....but you always hear about the good ole days...so is it really true? Was the fishing really better around here back 20 or 30 years ago???...has Erie improved or gotten worse?? Used to have salmon instead of steelhead...ladue before white perch... Milton before it got drained?? West Branch before it was a trophy musky fishery...do we harvest too much now? Or is it not enough?? Is there too much pressure now on our public waters or did the techniques just improve that much?..has management let us down or in the end are they really doing their part?? What are your thoughts?


I'm strictly talking inland lakes for bass. Yes, things have changed dramatically over the years. I've been bass fishing for 50 years. Was president of TriCounty bass Club for 20 years. Am now a member of West Penn Bass hunters out of Pittsburgh- I'm still not a Steelers FAN! Bass fishing years ago was much better. There wasn't nearly as much fishing pressure on the lakes as there is now. It was easy to go out and catch a bunch of quality fish. As tournament fishing became more popular here in Ohio, our small inland lakes experienced more serious bass anglers on a regular basis. I , for one, was a part of that. It has become tougher to consistently catch fish on our small reservoirs. Are the fish still there? Absolutely! It's just a little harder to catch them. Can the ODNR do a better job managing our bass fishery? I think so. Time will tell. As far as L. Erie? I can't wait till next year!


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

Each body of water has its own ph balance, bottom soil characteristics, etc. Those traits play a roll as to not only the micro biology and smaller minnow-type forage, but also affect the success or failure rate for the reproduction of everything that swims and lives therein. 

None of the above is static and is easily affected, sometimes in very negative ways by the usage of chemicals and the resulting runoff from farming, manufacturing, even lawn care weed control, etc. 

Thus blaming one species for the lack of numbers of another (presuming predation must be the primary cause) is easy and commonplace but it ignores a long list of other dynamic factors which, at the very least could have the same effects.


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

While I agree that much more than competition or predation goes into it I wonder if that is taken into account when decisions are made about stocking? I myself don't care for muskie's however i do believe the brach has benefited from them overall..but I do constantly hear how they are bad for the lake....forage base plays a big role too..for instance I'm curious to see with all the talk about the abundance of shad at Berlin the last few years will that mean a better size class of walleye two to three years from now?


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## Willyfield (Apr 1, 2007)

westbranchbob said:


> I've been around for the steelhead program from London to Manistee....I've heard the switch was made to improve return rates...not sure if that really happened or not..however...I will say the pressure has definitely gone up in that department..witch is both good and bad....the fish come in later and seem to leave much faster in the spring...but in the end still fun to have around...but are they out competing the walleye in the Eastern basin?...and would browns be better? Or maybe Lakers? What would it take to get walleye running up the grand in solid numbers?


100% correct in your analysis. I have been fishing them since the mid 1970's and I can tell you the ODNR did not think this winter run trout program out at all. The fish do not start to run until daylight savings time ends, so most of us cannot fish after work, or if you do get home in the daylight, you have to decide deer, or trout? The rivers are usually locked up in ice starting in Dec. They break up in March and the trout leave with the ice flows. Remember the polar vortex winters? Not a lot of river fishing those years. The breakwall fishing is sporadic to awful now as the trout stage in early Nov and are mostly out of reach unless you still have your boat in the water. Not to mention Lake Erie isn't very friendly then especially to breakwall anglers. Nothing like a nice sheet of ice on already slippery rocks!


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## MadMac (May 2, 2005)

Lundy said:


> Clear water usually means less fertile water. A body of water can support no more life that it has food to support.


Clear water allows more weeds to grow also. There's a balance there. Like VC1111 stated, there are many factors. I took my family to the Kawarthas about 15 years ago when my daughters were little. It was during an extreme heat wave with temps in the mid 90s every day. No trolling bite what so ever so we went perch fishing instead. 20' to 25' foot of water with weeds coming up to 15' produced perch after perch as well as some bonus catches of walleye and small mouth. Water in Lower Buckhorn is gin clear compared to our reservoirs. Allows more light penetration for weeds to grow in deeper cooler water.
Milton seems to have ten times the shad population West Branch has. Same fish species. Some of the fattest muskies you will ever see have come from this lake. I'm not sure if the soil around Milton has as much clay in it as WB. Both get crazy boat traffic at times. WB has way more raw shoreline so it suffers more erosion and the water is a little more murky than Milton. Then there is the orientation. WB is west to east and Milty north and south.
I'm not a biologist. My point is there are so many varying factors from lake to lake predation from other species would be my last choice as to why a certain species thrives in one lake compared to another. I could say that the bass and crappie eat all the baby muskie and that's why they don't reproduce on their own but it doesn't make it true.


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## OutdoorMediaCo (Sep 6, 2016)

I started fishing erie in the 90s. Smallmouth fishing was better then than now in my opinion. All the shoreline structure has changed dramtically. When I think Erie of the 90s i think old docks along the islands that were rock and big wooden beams. Prime smallie habitat. Never caught a largemouth near the islands in a decade. Now those docks have been replaced with structureless floating docks and I catch half largemouth and half smallies. The water is alot clearer now then back then. When I first started going up there I would catch 50+ smallmouth a day right off the bank as a young kid. Now i fish hard from my boat and catch 10-15 on a great day. There are still huge smallies, you just have to pattern them. I still catch alot from shore too but the fishy structure is more spread out and less accessible without a boat. I fished up there this year and had 5 lber shake my jerkbait at the bank right at dusk.. I love Erie its a special place for alot of Ohioians.


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## Minnowhead (Jan 12, 2011)

I'd like to see Musky stocked in all our lakes. As well as walleye and Red Ear. The whole channel cat thing is just a dollar and cents issue. It's cheaper.


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

MadMac said:


> Clear water allows more weeds to grow also. There's a balance there. Like VC1111 stated, there are many factors. I took my family to the Kawarthas about 15 years ago when my daughters were little. It was during an extreme heat wave with temps in the mid 90s every day. No trolling bite what so ever so we went perch fishing instead. 20' to 25' foot of water with weeds coming up to 15' produced perch after perch as well as some bonus catches of walleye and small mouth. Water in Lower Buckhorn is gin clear compared to our reservoirs. Allows more light penetration for weeds to grow in deeper cooler water.
> Milton seems to have ten times the shad population West Branch has. Same fish species. Some of the fattest muskies you will ever see have come from this lake. I'm not sure if the soil around Milton has as much clay in it as WB. Both get crazy boat traffic at times. WB has way more raw shoreline so it suffers more erosion and the water is a little more murky than Milton. Then there is the orientation. WB is west to east and Milty north and south.
> I'm not a biologist. My point is there are so many varying factors from lake to lake predation from other species would be my last choice as to why a certain species thrives in one lake compared to another. I could say that the bass and crappie eat all the baby muskie and that's why they don't reproduce on their own but it doesn't make it true.


I got a chance to walk around some of the Lake Milton basin when the lake was drained. What a revelation that was! Turned out all the cheapo "fishing maps" sold in the bait shops were pure fiction. For instance, that big mid-lake hump south of Rt.18 was shown as being about 30' deep! 

From Rt. 18 south to Pointview then up the channel toward Pop Carson's, the bottom is almost all gravel, sand, and rock. Very few mucky spots.


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## JamesF (May 20, 2016)

Like all management, 1st, you have to pry their head out of their zzz, and then you have to try to reason with them! I'm not a fan of this channel cat and shad stocking nonsense. Maybe they should hire some Real Marine Biologists.Some of the lakes that I used fish had quality panfishing, and since the introduction of channels and shad I have experienced a dramatic decrease of of the numbers and quality.This cheap stocking is just to appease the whiny people who are trashing the places Like a ghetto. Sorry I know I have ranted about this in the past, but it just burns my ass to see this. I am not bashing every one, however! take a ride around Mogadore's shore line, looks like one giant Hillbilly Fest! Fires, trash , and Beer bottles and can every where. And that doesn't include all the bait containers.Very sad! I have fished Mogadore for about 25 years and now I really don't feel like going there any more! Used to be a beautiful place! Not any more.If cats are you're thing than by all means help yourself, and take home as many as you can.If we have a hard winter and a massive shad die off, you can bet your last dollar, the cats are going to decimate the panfish population. Now that my Rant is over, everyone beat feet to Mogadore!


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## vc1111 (Apr 13, 2004)

MadMac: "l could say that the bass and crappie eat all the baby muskie and that's why they don't reproduce on their own but it doesn't make it true."

Amen. Excellent point.


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## boss302 (Jun 24, 2005)

Willyfield said:


> The limit used to be 10 on walleye, and none on perch if memory serves. Then perch limit was 50, now 30.


Limit of 10 was in the 90's and was political - to keep our share of the TAC......not because there were that many more fish


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

vc1111 said:


> MadMac: "l could say that the bass and crappie eat all the baby muskie and that's why they don't reproduce on their own but it doesn't make it true."
> 
> Amen. Excellent point.


Aren't muskie's stocked as fingerling thus making it impossible for Crappie to predate on them? Possibly bass.. definitely cats... pike for sure.... interesting


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## MadMac (May 2, 2005)

westbranchbob said:


> Aren't muskie's stocked as fingerling thus making it impossible for Crappie to predate on them? Possibly bass.. definitely cats... pike for sure.... interesting


Yes, they are 8" to 12" and generally stocked one per acre. I was referring to the lack of natural reproduction. It's due to the lack of conducive spawning habitat not predation by other species. My point being the other factors influence the fishing far more than predation does. These reservoirs aren't huge as lakes go but they aren't ponds where predation could have a large impact.


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## MadMac (May 2, 2005)

Think about Berlin. The ODNR says it's the only lake in Ohio that muskie naturally reproduce and it is minimal. Yet Berlin's water level has huge fluctuations and it is full of bass, white bass, crappie, cats, walleye.


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## westbranchbob (Jan 1, 2011)

Ok so to re cap....each lake is it's own body of water...lots of factors affect each one differently... seems a little of folks are against the catfish stockings and a lot of folks think muskie are a good thing.. or rather not to blame for any of the other species not doing so well... electronics have made us better anglers but catch rates are down for most not for all... Erie has changed...up in the air still weather it's good or bad..........so let me say this...I am not against muskie, although I don't quite agree with others opinions. I think some lakes such as ladue could benefit from them... people still over harvest but size limits are helping...white bass are down in mosquito and Berlin..never stronger in West Branch...I'd bet money if we all kept ling term records we'd see some of the population fluctuations are cyclical...however.. outside factors like zebra mussles and cleaner water have changed the lakes as well...in the end we are all getting out there and having a good time so I guess it all seems to be working quite well...thanks to everyone for such great input and omg can't believe this thing never got ugly!!!


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## buckeyebowman (Feb 24, 2012)

MadMac said:


> Think about Berlin. The ODNR says it's the only lake in Ohio that muskie naturally reproduce and it is minimal. Yet Berlin's water level has huge fluctuations and it is full of bass, white bass, crappie, cats, walleye.


You've provided your own answer. Muskie's are a "top of the food chain" predator. Thus, there will always be fewer of them than any other species. Plus, flood control reservoirs are subject to wild fluctuations in water level which will really screw up spawning efforts for many species. 

Fish will find a spot where the temp, sunlight, dissolved oxygen, substrate, wave action, and everything else is just right to spawn. Then, the reservoir gets a rain event and has to hold back silty water, or they get a water call and have to let some out. Conditions change and there goes your spawn!

Plus, different species have varying levels of "pickiness" about spawning. If it's not right when the bass are ready, they just say "screw it" and shut it down, while bluegills will make repeated attempts until things are right. They'll even do it in the weeds like crappie if they have to. 

I believe it's the nature of flood control reservoirs, which make up a large percentage of the waters we fish, that helps make things so complicated.


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## dennyk (Apr 10, 2012)

Remember West Branch 30 years ago. I've been mostly a pan fisherman and the crappie population was enormous but undersized with some schools of big ones. The lake became a real bummer for me after the wipers were stocked. The stripers didn'


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## c. j. stone (Sep 24, 2006)

First, let me say, I'm an "active" senior citizen! Now, to address the OP's comments(JMO)! Everyone over say 45? has experienced some"Good Old Days"! What this means is you were younger/full of virility and energy. You could fish(or hunt) outdoors all day(or night!)Thus, you found more fish(or game)! Now that the aging process is kicking in(as it does for ALL of us), it "appears" that things are not as "Good" as the were in our"distant" memory! What is "not as Good", is US! Plain and simple! I know I can't fish as hard, or as long(maybe not as "smartly"!) as I once did and the "bag" shows it! As far as management, though my success rate is lower(and it would be easy for me to blame it on poor "management"!), I honestly believe that it is Better! The guys who implement our(particularly) fish mgt, are better educated/smarter today(Hell, Everything and everybody IS!)than they were back in my "Good Old Days"! This being said, I feel privileged to still have those great memories of those days!


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## louisvillefisherman (Jun 9, 2012)

buckeyebowman said:


> Thus, there will always be fewer of them than any other species. Plus, flood control reservoirs are subject to wild fluctuations in water level which will really screw up spawning efforts for many species. [...] Then, the reservoir gets a rain event and has to hold back silty water, or they get a water call and have to let some out. Conditions change and there goes your spawn!


It should also be noted that water fluctuations in our reservoirs have a few positive effects as well.

The "flushing" action clears muck from gravel areas which provide spawning beds for certain species. 

Also, if you look at the historical water level charts for, say, Berlin. The typical spawning period has the most stable water levels of the year. It only takes a week or so (after a good rain event) to bring the winter pool back to what we would consider a "normal" level. After that point, the fluctuations are only a foot or two which you would have in any body of water after a seasonal downpour.

I feel water levels are given too much blame for overall fishing conditions. I believe forage base (main factor) and water quality (oxygen saturation, pH levels, turbidity, seasonal high/low temp range) has more to do with the overall long term fishability of a body of water than any other factor, and there are many of those factors to choose from.


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## John D. (Nov 5, 2004)

westbranchbob said:


> Ya I also understand that...but because they consume a quantity of that does it make it harder for a decent population of Crappie to exist?..what about bass? Would the overall quality of other species improve without them or are they actually helping to keep the balance?


Well I for one think that the Muskie population is something that I wish never happened. When I heard that the state was going to stock the branch with muskies I said there goes the bass. I can not go out for a day and not catch at least one Muskie. Yes I am the guy that said if you want to catch a Muskie go Bass fishing. Years ago, well maybe 10 years ago I would go out an get 10-15 Bass. Now it is a good day if I get two or three. If Muskie are on a shad diet why do I catch a lot of Bass with gash scars. I know that the Muskie guys are happy. But I am on the side of the sad.

John D.


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## steelhead steve (May 5, 2012)

years ago I would go with my dad on the wan-el perch boat on a fri get out about 7pm fish till 11pm then it was 45 min home and I would scale fish till 3-4 am that was in the early 60s in the 70s I would take him out of wildwood no limit on perch but no walleye either but we di catch smelt and we did in the 60s mid 70s we would go to the islands and limit on eyes with erie dearies mosquito was our go to lake a lot of times because there we could almost always from the first week in may to the 3rd week of june if you didn't catch walleyes it meant you didn't have bait but they use to stock it better no perch back then or very small ones but skeeter always had big channel cats and northern pike and the biggest crappie around before I had a boat we would sit on the causeway from 5pm till 10 and bring home a 5 gallon bucket or more 10-14 inches some even 16 inch . I think different economies have changed the way they stock lakes at one time it as hard to find a parking place for you boat trailer on a weekend at mosquito in may or june and you would be in line trying to get your boat out of the water. lake erie got real clean in a matter of a few years because of the EPA and the walleye smallmouth and white bass all thrived because of it before that the lake was so polluted bass couldn't live in the waters . I still remember the Cuyahoga catching on fire from the paint Sherwin Williams use to dump in there . overall I think fishing has changed some for the better like lake erie walleyes and smallmouth and some for the worse like ladue but I still love to fish I just wish they would have a state wide size limit on walleyes at 15 inch 9 inch on crappie and perch but hats just my opinion .I only fished west branch a few times and never did any good there but I don't knoe why they don't put saugeyes in there but maybe there not enough forage food there , I know the did attempt to put northern pike in there but I only ever heard of a few caught . oh well going to get my grandson out for perch everyone be safe and have fun .


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