# About Time For A New Straight Wall Rifle Cartridge



## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

It's about time for someone to come out with a new straight wall cartridge for deer hunting, we got the 450 Bushmaster first then the 350 Legend, in my opinion they should have made it standard 35 caliber .358 and not .357. Has anyone heard of anything in the works/


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## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Its a pretty limited market, and with manufacturers still playing catch up with a lot of rounds they probably aren’t ready to give any lines for something so limited just yet. But I do think we’ve yet to find the “perfect” straight wall deer round.


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## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

Michigan has a case length requirement also, I am going to do a little experimenting with my 375 marlin this year, it's not prefect but I think it can do pretty good.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

The 375Win loaded with spitzer tyoe bullets is about close to perfect Ohio gun as you can get. I’ve never had a chance to experiment with .405 Winchester, but .375 cal bullets are just about maximum bearing surface / weight ration practical. The next breakthrough in straight walls will come in form of powder. There is only so much you can do with straight walls.


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## s.a.m (Feb 22, 2016)

A guy at Double D precision arms has one he's calling the 44 predator, he's working on getting it out there. guess more info would be on their Facebook page.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

I had a bolt action about 10yrs ago. A .44 Rhino based on 308 case. Basically rimless 444. Get a Wildcat manual and you will see there ain’t much that hasn’t been done as far as different lengths in straight cases. Only differences are rim or in some belted cases.


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## Flathead76 (May 2, 2010)

I just want a Remington 7600 pump in .350 legend.


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## Ron Y (Dec 2, 2020)

I went to a Ruger 77 in .44 mag. Short lightweight gun good to 100 yards. I think you could shoot farther with it but with our conditions I sighted it in for 50 yd.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

There's enough around now to harvest deer..... it would be one more ammo not on the shelves .... I'm sure when things slow in sales , something new will come out to sale to people that just have to have the latest thing


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

ironman172 said:


> There's enough around now to harvest deer..... it would be one more ammo not on the shelves .... I'm sure when things slow in sales , something new will come out to sale to people that just have to have the latest thing


The ammo manf only have X number of machines. For example when they shut down a run of 308 brass they loose production. It takes time to retool for another cartridge. Less time if cartridge is based on same case head. Some cartridges with odd case heads, like 35 Rem they will phase out.
Right now they are selling para military ammo hand over fist. They don’t want to loose time on any annual sales type hunting ammo. The computer that is suppose to give you more choices will be what shuts down manufacture of your favorite cartridge, not enough volume - not enough profit.


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## TODD64 (May 7, 2015)

ironman172 said:


> There's enough around now to harvest deer..... it would be one more ammo not on the shelves .... I'm sure when things slow in sales , something new will come out to sale to people that just have to have the latest thing


Exactly. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## Ron Y (Dec 2, 2020)

I would never buy a gun of any vintage with a weird caliber that might be discontinued in the future. I regret buying a .380 pistol, can't find ammo and when you do its overpriced. Just sticking with 9mm and .45.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Ron Y said:


> I went to a Ruger 77 in .44 mag. Short lightweight gun good to 100 yards. I think you could shoot farther with it but with our conditions I sighted it in for 50 yd.


A couple years back I mounted scopes on pair of Ruger 77/44s. 2x7 Leupolds. Winchester White box 
240gr ammo. At same time was doing a Ruger 44 carbine and Marlin 1894. These two didn’t have as expensive scopes as 77/44s, still not junk. I sight 44s in for 60yds unless otherwise specified. Those 77/44s were shooting 5shot/1” groups. This is best I’ve seen out of any 44s. I would but one proviso on that. I’m wondering what a Remington 788 in 44mag would do? It might be ultimate Ohio deer gun.
At average distance most deer are shot down in my area, 44mag will cover it nicely.


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## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

Ron Y said:


> I went to a Ruger 77 in .44 mag. Short lightweight gun good to 100 yards. I think you could shoot farther with it but with our conditions I sighted it in for 50 yd.


I have several different caliber straight wall choices to hunt with, and use my .444 Marlin if I’m serious about it. One of my daughters bought a Ruger 77 in .44 mag a few years back for Ohio Deer and I scoped it and sighted it in for her and could have not been more impressed with this little rifle. Today if I’m grabbing a rifle just to take a quick walk out back in the woods during season I grab her Ruger, it has become my favorite little deer rifle. And like Drm50 said, Winchester White Box rounds fly remarkably well thru the tube. Great choice for Ohio deer in my opinion.


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## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

I agree with all the above, but somebody will come out with a better mouse trap, Just like DRM said I have a Ruger 44 semi auto that will clover leaf 5 rounds at 100 yards and is devastating on deer with a 240 Gr Hornady XTP reloads, the 45 70 is an over kill for white tail also.


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## Ron Y (Dec 2, 2020)

I agree, but last year I shot at doe last day, 35 yd and deer ran off, searched for 2 hours no blood, no deer, went back to stand , examined the shot and there was small branch about 20' in front of me that really did not look like anything thru scope but I guess I nicked it and threw bullet off. Otherwise I have killed with it before and wonder if I need to worry about a small bullet being deflected. ??


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## Ron Y (Dec 2, 2020)

By the way I'm shooting the Hornday Leverutions,XTP, 240 gr too. Thought maybe should try something else buy they group well.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Ron Y said:


> I agree, but last year I shot at doe last day, 35 yd and deer ran off, searched for 2 hours no blood, no deer, went back to stand , examined the shot and there was small branch about 20' in front of me that really did not look like anything thru scope but I guess I nicked it and threw bullet off. Otherwise I have killed with it before and wonder if I need to worry about a small bullet being deflected. ??


If your bullet hits anything, it has nothing to do with gun or ammo. There is no such thing as a brush gun. Heavy, slow bullets will tend to deflect less. That don’t mean squat , it’s still going to be a miss or foul hit. There was a video on You Tube by two idiots that were testing guns out on their ability to shoot through brush. The nearer the obstruction is to the muzzle the worse the deflection. That’s plain old physics. That’s the reason I don’t use a scope in my area. I put a new scope on my 45/70 for first year of Ohio Rifle. 7 shots to sight in, carried rifle till noon and then switched to 44 with peeps. They are quicker than scope and obstructions show up. It’s hard to shoot through “holes” in thick stuff when you can’t see them with scope.


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## Ron Y (Dec 2, 2020)

I agree and tested it the same day, 35 yd and missed center by 3/4" so it had to be the branch but it sure shakes your confidence. I use a scope cause of my eyeglasses as open sites I cannot get focus on one end or the other. And yes I have chopped wood with a shotgun and slugs trying to get a shot in heavy cover, stupid waste of time.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

So far in my ruger 44 carbine been shooting 300gr jacketed soft points..... got similar in 240gr. That I haven't put on paper..... I imagine might fly a little flatter unless the powder charge compensates for the heavier bullet they use..... probably should see one day
Mine has the magazine, not the tube fed ..... Deerfield?


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

I’m pretty happy with the current cartridges.


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## mike hunt (Jan 19, 2014)

I have a bolt action 450 Marlin, it shoots a 250gn slug about 2800fps, pretty good flame too.


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## MagicMarker (Mar 19, 2017)

Don’t think you could shoot any straitwalled cartridges any cheaper than the 350


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## eyecat (Sep 17, 2018)

I have 2 Rem 788 .44 mags with Timney triggers. They shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with 240 gr Horn XTP.
Daughter shot this deer with it this deer season, shot through top of lungs and ran about 75 yds.


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## eyecat (Sep 17, 2018)

I am a hunting and shooting enthusiest, so keep records of the deer harvested with our SW rifles.
In the past 8 seasons starting in 2014, our family of 6 (includes in-laws) have harvested
18 deer with .44 mags
7 deer with .375 Win
9 deer with .450 BM
1 deer with .44 Special.

The .44 Special was obviously shot thru a 44 rifle, has very very little recoil, and will harvest a deer at 35-50 yards with rifle velocities. It was only used to start a young child hunting and not used since.
During the shotgun slug era, I started my kids (8-10 yrs old accompanied with adult hunter) shooting muzzleloaders with 50 grains of powder, sabot bullet, and kept distances 25-50 yards.

It is so much more interesting and enjoyable now shooting SW rifles.


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## Basser57 (Nov 23, 2017)

The 45-70 and 444 can do whatever is needed in Ohio. Both have decent range with great knock down power.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Ron Y said:


> I agree and tested it the same day, 35 yd and missed center by 3/4" so it had to be the branch but it sure shakes your confidence. I use a scope cause of my eyeglasses as open sites I cannot get focus on one end or the other. And yes I have chopped wood with a shotgun and slugs trying to get a shot in heavy cover, stupid waste of time.


I wear glasses and some of my rifles, I can’t see back sight. A receiver aperature sight will solve this problem. I hunt with no aperture, just use sight frame. If you are using a aperture sight correctly you look thru the sight, not at it. I find no better sight system for moving targets. The pin hole aperture’s are nice for target under favorable light but not practical for hunting.


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## Tree_Beard (Jan 13, 2021)

I just use a .357
Buffalo bore ammo, hard cast 180 grain bullet in a short little lever action with peep sights. At 40 yards it went through both shoulders of a big buck and kept going. It's been good enough for me, plus it's fun plinking with .38 special in the off season.


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## supersport 170 (Apr 10, 2014)

You know the truth of it is shot placement . I have hunted in WV my entire life. There I have shot an extreme range of rifle calibers . The 3030 to the 06and 280Rem. Several odd calibers as well 257 Roberts 6mm Rem.and my newest this year a 6mm Creedmore. Everyone of them has been in the same situation as my Ohio rifles they all kill deer when the shot placement is where it needs to be . In ohio my 45/70 the 44 mag and .357 mag lever guns have all killed deer as fast as my rifles I use in WV and I tell ya the 45/70 is an absolute deer hammer!.The brush gun story is just that none of them are worth a **** shooting through brush but some are easier to handle in brushy environments . If it's not an ethical shot why are you trying to take it to begin with . In ohio I have seen shots with the 350 taken that amazed me they were shots I would frequently take with my 45/70 but the key to the success was the fact that the shooters could shoot . The direct result of practice and knowing your limitation not so much as the caliber. Find a caliber you can shoot well and shoot it often and the results will be quite satisfying .


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

supersport 170 said:


> You know the truth of it is shot placement . I have hunted in WV my entire life. There I have shot an extreme range of rifle calibers . The 3030 to the 06and 280Rem. Several odd calibers as well 257 Roberts 6mm Rem.and my newest this year a 6mm Creedmore. Everyone of them has been in the same situation as my Ohio rifles they all kill deer when the shot placement is where it needs to be . In ohio my 45/70 the 44 mag and .357 mag lever guns have all killed deer as fast as my rifles I use in WV and I tell ya the 45/70 is an absolute deer hammer!.The brush gun story is just that none of them are worth a **** shooting through brush but some are easier to handle in brushy environments . If it's not an ethical shot why are you trying to take it to begin with . In ohio I have seen shots with the 350 taken that amazed me they were shots I would frequently take with my 45/70 but the key to the success was the fact that the shooters could shoot . The direct result of practice and knowing your limitation not so much as the caliber. Find a caliber you can shoot well and shoot it often and the results will be quite satisfying .


I’ve seen guys blaming the cartridge for years. They then buy a cannon to make up for poor shooting. 
One family local uses 338mg / BARs in WVa and 45/70s here in Ohio. Most guys hunt from stands and have no excuse for poor hits. When you have a 3x9 scope on a 45/70 rifle or 350 Legend shooting less than 100yds from a rest, you got no excuse. Do they realize that poachers shot deer with 22s and have no problem. The difference is the poacher can shoot. 
I’ve had guys tell me it’s not ethical to shoot running deer. It makes me wonder how much deer hunting they have done. It seems the last 20yrs the bulk of deer hunters sit on a stump and wait for deer to come by. I’ve shot quite a few deer, in quite a few states and very few were stationary. Also used about every common cartridge you can think of. If I had my druthers here in Ohio I would pick 30/30 or 35Rem, open sights. The late Jack OConnor gun writer, once said if you can’t go in the woods with a 30/30 and come out with a deer, you got no business in the woods. There used to be a WW2 marine that was a regular at beer joint below town. It was the perfect place to here BS about shooting ability. He said the average guy couldn’t hit a Pie Pan offhand at 100yds. A mile down the road was a gravel pit. I can’t count the times the whole joint emptied out to adjourn at the gravel pit.
There 100yds was clearly marked, it’s where locals when to sight in and plink. Many who talked about smoking oranges at 100yds could hit a 9” Pie Pan. A good many couldn’t do it offhand with a scope.
We also have the “Killer Bullet Cult”, a plain lead bullet is all that’s needed to kill deer. Ammo manf are making a mint on “Specialty’s” which are nothing more than ammo in a fancy box. There is nothing that makes up for poor shooting. Shooting from a rest with a scope isn’t practice, it just proves your gun is sighted in.


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

"Ammo manf are making a mint on “Specialty’s” which are nothing more than ammo in a fancy box. There is nothing that makes up for poor shooting. Shooting from a rest with a scope isn’t practice, it just proves your gun is sighted in."



lol,,,, good reading.
And what did our ancestors use to war & hunt, for like 200 years?
No jackets on that lead,,,,, & what were the velocities? (oh no,,, back to that buffalo 45/70?)

Way back, I hunted Kittanning with a bunch of locals. They all had bench rests mounted in the back of their trucks.?
10- maybe 12 shots rang out from their 30-06 & 300 mags,,,,, & finally, that deer that was bedded on the hillside beyond the next valley got up & fell over!
They were elated! ALL kinds of high-fives!

And there I was.
I got a pacemaker about 40 years ago & it had to go in my shooting shoulder. Dr said, 'No more rifles, No more shotguns!!' DAMN, I SCREAMED,,,,
Ya right.


So Go ahead guys,,,,
just ask my friends how many deer I killed since then,, in 2 states, with my pea-shooting .410 pump,, with 1/5th oz of lead!
That's why I don't really understand any of this " need another caliber" stuff.
(but I'm sure you noticed how I'm trying to sneak in a .350 L. Should be easier to reload. ;>)


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

Pass through, double collapsed lungs = dead deer ..... most bullets will do that allowed by the state presently..... I'm good with what we have now..... dang Arthur in my shoulders don't like arms being extended with no weight , why no more 12 ga. shotgun ..... and yes I use a rest for the animals sake..... meat hunter ,don't need to brag..... those days are past


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Let us not forget the big game in Ohio was shot out to extinction before Ohio became a state (1803) Most game killed with muzzle loaders of 40cal or less. 
The 50 cal and bigger weren’t needed until there was western expansion. Grizzly, elk and Buffalo needed a bigger hunk of lead. 
Im as guilty as the next guy. I don’t think a year has gone by that I haven’t seen a big buck that was way out of range, especially for a slug. Hollywood has everyone believing that a 45/70 is a long range gun. Most of the Ohio legal rifles aren’t much better than a slug for range. The accuracy is a lot better.


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## waterfox (Dec 27, 2014)

Doboy said:


> "Ammo manf are making a mint on “Specialty’s” which are nothing more than ammo in a fancy box. There is nothing that makes up for poor shooting. Shooting from a rest with a scope isn’t practice, it just proves your gun is sighted in."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


at about the same time I hunted yatesboro with a 22 hornet with others using 30-06 and some 30-30
used the hornet until i got a 264 mag and hunted camron co pa until the hills got too big.


Doboy said:


> "Ammo manf are making a mint on “Specialty’s” which are nothing more than ammo in a fancy box. There is nothing that makes up for poor shooting. Shooting from a rest with a scope isn’t practice, it just proves your gun is sighted in."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

What I think it’s time for is a more intelligent allowance of cartridges. This cartridge selection is suppose to be result of population density for safety. So straight walls were picked. I’m not going to bother discussing the big bore stuff but let’s look at 350 Legend which is legal. I’m not going to discuss it being for AR either. 
I understand there has to be limits to keep idiots from dropping 300 magnums over the horizon. We get that down here when it was slugs only. I can see no reason that cartridges in 30/30- 35 Rem class couldn’t be made legal. Their ballistics are similar to the legal cartridges. Getting back to 350, it will carry as far as most LV deer guns. 
The straight wall is suppose to be description to make it easy for wardens to check weapons. True but giving that most wardens can read, they are going to check you anyway, let them do their job. 
The only thing I would add for safety would be Hollow Points only. This would cut the risk of richocete
down considerably.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

^^^ +1
Also to include in the list should be the 243 and 270.


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## Doboy (Oct 13, 2008)

fastwater said:


> *Also to include in the list should be the 243 and 270.*



lol,,,, now you opened a flashback, about my first love! slightly off topic. (big guns, too little guns) ;>)

Like 'WATERFOX' said,,,, 
Way back, early '70s,, I got invited to my first Pa BIG WOODS deer hunt.
Sinnemahoning River, Wycoff to Medix run area.
2 of us pulled into camp & started to unload,,,,, Some of the 'Elders' came out to help us younguns.
I opened my guncase to take two 'CHECK' shots & pert-near got laughed out of camp!
All I heard was, "What are you gonna kill with that squirrel gun!?"
Those 'ol boys seen my Mossburg bolt .243. ($100) & THEY ALL OFFERED ME THEIR BACK-UP GUNS!
Very embarrassing, specially for a newbie!
Out of 13 guys at camp, I was the only one at camp who shot a buck! It was a nice 8pter that was sneaking through the laurel. THAT buck held 1st place for 30 something years!
Shoulder & lungs,,, nothing but mush inside. 40 yds & dropped.

Then, on the other hand, 2 of my friends were hunting down Liverpool area,, Fri Sat & Sun gun. They collectively seen +- 60 deer but passed on all of the close doe, Waiting for the BIG BUCK. 
At the end of those days, they started 'trying' to fill tags with doe.
2 were hit with a .350L, & one was hit with a 12G,,,,, & all 3 deer were LOST!
The comment made to me was,,,, "WE NEED BIGGER GUNS!" (talking .444, .450 & 45/70!)
omg,,,,,,,,
*HOW MANY DEER ARE KILLED IN THE U S, @ 20-70yds, WITH AN ARROW!?

DRM50,, " HOLLOW POINTS",,, & good hits!.*


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## bobk (Apr 30, 2004)

No need for bigger guns. We need people who respect the deer. 3 lost deer is pathetic.


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

My all time favorite straightwall cartridge the 357 Maximum. Way back when we were limited to just pistols. I was a 44 Mag man and it did its job. It was great out to about 125 yds which was my personal limit. Then they they came out with the maximum. Using the 150 grain Remington PSP bullet I was able to make a viable 200 yd deer slayer out of it.

Most of my deer hunting back then was in Trumbull and Mahoning Counties. My first trip down to some Southern Ohio counties revealed a need for longer range. So the very next spring I started with the 180 grain as suggested by "experts". Regardless of load used trajectory very similar to my 180 grain 44 mag loads. Finally got around to the 150 grainer that everyone warned me not to use. They were wrong very wrong. This spring I am going to start playing with that Hornady 140 grain flex point.

By the way the irony of all this, After working up this great load and all that experimentation. 39 yds is the longest shot I have been presented with to this point. Pals used to carp hey he has to stand behind a tree to load his gun so the deer don't run him over. One year due to health problems I couldn't go deer hunting. Friend begged me to let me borrow my setup. I can't describe how reluctant I was to comply. But knowing he would give it the greatest of care I relented. 

He got a rather large body wise 7 point. He used that high shoulder shot that I like. Claimed the buck was 195-200. Since I was not there I cannot testify to this. But this guy never would lie even about how big his fish were. I just don't know how accurate his range estimations were. This I can testify to. At 200 yards the 150 grain slug shot plum through 10 inches of landscape ties. Which told me it would kill any deer ever grown. I never dreamed it would do this as it was the back stop at the range.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

So far...unlike not being impressed with the terminal performance of either the Winchester 150 or Hornady 165gr flex tip 350 Legend rds. the Hornady American Whitetail 170gr. SP round is working much better for me.
Last year on a decent sized doe at about 145yds with the text book broadside heart/lung shot...dropped her where she stood. She then got up...staggered about 15ft and dropped for good. Complete pass through with exit hole larger than entrance. Lungs destroyed as well as upper part of heart. Obviously did not recover bullet. Saw the same results of friends using the same round on a few other deer last year as well...but no projectiles recovered.
This year shot a decent buck with a decent sized body. Wasnt able to get the shot angle I wanted and ended up taking a quartering towards me downwards about 20degree shot. Bullet entered upper front of left shoulder angled downwards/rearward hitting lower back right shoulder. Bullet stopped and recovered just inside the hide.
Deer dropped like a rock.
Bullet held together and expanded perfectly:


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## fireline (Jun 14, 2007)

That's prefect expansion!


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

My son has shot 4 deer with the Hornady 170 grain bullets over the last 2 years. All have been complete pass through's, so we haven't recovered any bullets. One deer dropped dead with a neck shot, 1 deer went 10 yards on a heart/lung shot, one deer went 50 yards on a heart/lung, and 1 deer went 150 yards on a lung only shot. I'm pleased with the caliber and bullet. There aren't many calibers out there that a kid could start shooting accurately at 7 years old that put's deer down so well.


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## Moo Juice (Jan 20, 2021)

We're using 180 grain Hornady XTP's in the kids .357 Max's. Excellent performance and accuracy.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

A little bird at Barnes told me they are gearing up to start producing the 350 legend rd. 
First will be the complete round...then producing/selling just the projectile for reloaders.
Bullet will be an all copper bullet somewhere in the 155-165gr. range. With the velocities of the 350's, should be an excellent expander.
Can't wait...


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

The Barnes bullets are awesome, but pricey$$$.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Yes...they are a bit on the pricey side.
Will surely try the complete round when they come out but really waiting on when they start selling just the projectile for the 'roll your own' hobby. That is If'n we can get brass and rest of components by then.


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## papaperch (Apr 12, 2004)

This may be redundant info for you 350 Legend handloaders . But just in case. When I first setup my 350 bullets were hard to find. Since I had a 9MM resizer for .356 I decided to resize some of my .358 stock of bullets. Did not even have to lube the jsp point bullets. Even my prized no longer in production 150 grain .358 Remington bullets. I think I made a post on how well they performed on here. Both thru the AR-15 upper and the single shot CVA Scout. I also tried the 180 gr SSSP . As with the Maximum I preferred the trajectory of the 150's . Found the link.









CVA Scout talking beau coup smack


My 350 Legend CVA has never been finalized for a pet load. Mother nature permitted this afternoon to fire a few off. My first trial round five shot group looked like a shot gun pattern instead of a rifle group. So that was a no go, three other trial loads also stunk up the place. The two keepers...




www.ohiogamefishing.com


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## Muddy (May 7, 2017)

Recovered Barnes bullet from a buck I shot several years ago. .45 caliber sabot.


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## fastwater (Apr 1, 2014)

Muddy said:


> View attachment 480487
> 
> Recovered Barnes bullet from a buck I shot several years ago. .45 caliber sabot.


That's a beautiful thing right there.
Have a few recovered Barnes 250gr. TEZ ml'er bullets that rose pedaled perfectly just like that.
The all copper Barnes bullets just work at velocities under about 2500fps. The very reason I'm excited about Barnes eventually coming out with their all copper 350 legend projectiles.
FWIW...there are a few custom bullet makers already offering a all copper 350Legend bullet.


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## Drm50 (Dec 26, 2014)

Doboy said:


> lol,,,, now you opened a flashback, about my first love! slightly off topic. (big guns, too little guns) ;>)
> 
> Like 'WATERFOX' said,,,,
> Way back, early '70s,, I got invited to my first Pa BIG WOODS deer hunt.
> ...


I say hollow points to reduce the risk of richocete. Hollow point strikes something it is pretty well spent. Low velocity solids are bad for glancing off anything hit at shallow angle. So if they allow Classic calibers like 30/30, 35Rem, ect these would fall at 2000 to 2400 FPS and max out approx 200gr bullets. Perfectly adequate for deer and not posing anymore over shoot danger that what is already legal. Many would be able to use their old heirloom guns of cartridges that have been obsolete since before WW2.
I don’t know why anyone would think a 243 is not enough gun for deer, Not my favorite for the way I hunt but neither is a 270. These cartridges are good for shooting in the open or hunting from a stand. 
It don’t take much to kill a deer if you put a good shot on it. I however would be leery about using a Mossberg for anything other than a Jack Handle.


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## ironman172 (Apr 12, 2009)

I prefer an arrow, no bruising, just slicing ..... but come gun season for me, it's time to fill the freezer
to bad they changed Hocking county to 2 deer from 3 like some past years..... I do miss still being able to hunt ..... oh well


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