# New line?



## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Hey, i have a 9' 5wt redington Crosswater (Which, some day, I hope to replace with an Orvis or Sage stick, but not today). I've found that, when casting it, I have a really hard time shooting line. At all. The line feels kind of rough and does not have the same sort of slippery coating that my father's less expensive white river combo does. I thought it was just my casting until I tried his, and found that I could throw a good 25' farther with a slightly slower action rod that's 6" shorter!

The line's only 4 months old, but now that I realize how hard it is holding me back, I think it needs to get the boot. I would like to replace it with something new, but there are a _lot_ of kinds of fly line, and I don't know where to start. 

*I typically fish a mix between trout in streams, various kinds of bass in streams, and whatever will bite in ponds. I like long casts,* but I rarely catch any fish on them anyway.. could be the vicious casting I have to do to get any distance lol.

What are some good lines that you guys have experience with? As an engineer, the *air flo ridge line *caught my eye, because it's sound in principle... has anyone used it?

Also, no 3m sharkskin please... I know it rocks, but I only spent a hundred bucks on my whole rig! lol. 

Thanks for your help, in advance


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Have you cleaned the line and/or your guides much? I am horrible about doing this but when I do, it is like I got a new line.

I personally use Wonderline by Orvis but I hear really good things about their Clearwater line. It is only $29 so I am thinking I should probably get some to see if I notice a difference. At half the cost of my Wonderline I should at least find out if I am actually getting a tangible advantage for the extra cash.


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## riverKing (Jan 26, 2007)

i would not point you to the sharkskin line, I like it but I dont think its as good as rio gold in the situations you described. however, with the crosswater and possible small stream bass you may be better off with the rio grand, it has a little more punch, so if you plan on fishing very small flies for trout the gold will present better, but the grand may be better all around.


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

That's the thing.. with the current junk line I've thrown everything from a 20 caddis to a 2/0 streamer (and all on 4 lb leader material, no tippet) but I'm having to work waaaay too hard to get this line to go anywhere, and it won't pick up worth jack.


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## Fishaholic69 (Apr 6, 2007)

my cheaper cabelas rod cast like all my higher end rods but when its icy I take it out instead and this week icy guides wouldn't let me shoot line like it normaly would. maybe its the time of the year.


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## Tall cool one (Jul 13, 2006)

Clayton,your lack of leader is probably hurting your efforts as well. Try using a real leader that can turn the fly over and you won't have to work so darn hard. 4lb? You've got to be kidding!?!? Don't make it any harder than it needs to be.
I tie my own from bulk mono I buy at BPS 30yds at a time/spool(usually berkley big game as it is stiff). 36" 30 lb for a butt,18" of 20lb,12" of 15lb and 12" of 10 lb and then a tippet of quality mono... and NOT 4lb! Try 6 or 8 lb or 2x or 3x tippet mat'l.
SA and RIO both have moderately priced lines,RIO has the mainstream series and SA has ultra4,TC1


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## ohiotuber (Apr 15, 2004)

Treat the line before you give up on it. The best treatment, (in my opinion and many others), is ZipCast. Jerry Brumfield (Fly Reel Dots) & I work together & both use & sell it. We will be at the Fly Tying Expo in northeast Ohio this Saturday, 1/10/09. Come up, stop in & we'll show you how it works. In fact, bring your outfit, I'll ZipCast your line for you & you can SEE how it works.
Mike


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## alighthouse (Jul 24, 2006)

try cleaning you line and guides first if your set on replacing your line every so often Orvis has there Wonderline 3 on sale i picked a 7wt up for 34 with shippin its pretty smooth and easy to cast but havent tried any others


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

Tall cool one said:


> Clayton,your lack of leader is probably hurting your efforts as well. Try using a real leader that can turn the fly over and you won't have to work so darn hard. 4lb? You've got to be kidding!?!? Don't make it any harder than it needs to be.
> I tie my own from bulk mono I buy at BPS 30yds at a time/spool(usually berkley big game as it is stiff). 36" 30 lb for a butt,18" of 20lb,12" of 15lb and 12" of 10 lb and then a tippet of quality mono... and NOT 4lb! Try 6 or 8 lb or 2x or 3x tippet mat'l.
> SA and RIO both have moderately priced lines,RIO has the mainstream series and SA has ultra4,TC1


Sometimes I fish areas with weeds and scum and such, and therefore the multi-knot leaders seem like a bad idea to me... they'd get snagged on everything!

I've never lost a fish on my 4 lb test due to the line itself, and usually have to pull with 8-12 lbs of force to get it to break. You'd be surprised how nice it is  however, I understand what you're saying about turning the fly over. So, essentially I just need to give up and buy some tippets? What annoyed me about them is that I change flies quite often, and before long I'm too high in the tippet to use it reasonably, because it barely fits through the guides!

Is the right order fly line --> leader material --> tippet? Or is there some other right way to set this up?

I want good presentations


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## silverbullet (Apr 14, 2004)

Clayton,
Your right on...flyline---leader--tippet.
I have the same outfit as you, I picked it when I was living in NC for trout. The first thing I did was drop the line. The stuff that came with it was junk. I opted for a cortland line the local shop had on sale. It was a 444 i do believe.
A good line on that outfit and may just forget about a new rod in the future.

Good luck


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

silverbullet said:


> Clayton,
> Your right on...flyline---leader--tippet.
> I have the same outfit as you, I picked it when I was living in NC for trout. The first thing I did was drop the line. The stuff that came with it was junk. I opted for a cortland line the local shop had on sale. It was a 444 i do believe.
> A good line on that outfit and may just forget about a new rod in the future.
> ...


I've been looking at the Cortland stuff  i'm gonna try the line conditioner I picked up today, but I don't really have very much hope in it to be honest. Is 444 all that expensive?

I bought the setup when I was visiting my GF in New York. Oatka Creek runs through her property, and Orvis thinks highly of that creek... for a reason  the day I went out to break in my fly rod I got 3 trout in 5 minutes. However, I fished all day for that 5 minutes, so I feel like I earned it 

I've always had a LOT of trouble throwing smaller flies in general, when it hits the water it often won't lay the whole leader out. Is this because I use a crappy tippet or no tippet at all? lately it's been a little better, but when I was in NY I scared a LOT of fish with the fly line haha.

Thanks for all your help, you guys are excellent!


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Clayton,

A nice smooth transition from flyline to fly is absolutely critical to good presentation. I bet the reason you are having trouble with smaller flies is exactly what you have already identified.

I used to be bad about letting my leader get short until I spent a day on the Battenkill trying to be good about consistently tying on more tippet. My presentation really picked up and holes where I had been skunked before suddenly sprouted trout.


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

So you kept replacing your tippet, or do you use a knotted tippet and just keep adding more of the last line segment on?

Because the latter certainly sounds more agreeable.. I wonder if I could get a 4x or 5x tippet, and then just tie a foot or two of my 4 lb leader on there? Or would that COMPLETELY defeat the purpose? 

Sorry for my lack of understanding, but you guys are awesome. Keep the advice coming, and maybe someday I'll even get good at this!


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## Flyfish Dog (Nov 6, 2007)

Airflo ridge line is great and I am phasing my Rio's for them this year. Rio's gave me to much problem being to soft and not very durable. But most dont fish constantly enough so it should be fine. Cortland line of any kind is pure junkIMO


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## flyman (Aug 9, 2007)

i hate to agree w/ dog. i have the cortland 555, supposedly the best they have, and it is not making impression. even though it is ok for the first 60' or so, i cant say i like it. guess i'll try airflo next


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## Tall cool one (Jul 13, 2006)

Clayton,you're still missing the point here... you need a tapered leader to properly turn the fly over at the end of the cast. It does'nt matter who you are or how well you cast; a lack of tapered leader,unless you use straight 20 lb, does not turn over properly and will make even the best of lines cast like doodoo.If weeds are a problem use a knotless taper you can buy at any fly or BPS shop and replace the tippet(1st 24") w/ new material as you use it up.
I can't believe that there are so many weeds in your waters all year that you can't use a knotted leader,esp in any streams. C'mon bro',you're trying to argue w/ someone who has flyfished longer than you've been alive! It aint until mid-july or later anywhere here in Oh that the weeds get that bad and that would only be on a pond.
I also don't understand why you feel you have to use 4lb at the end of your line,esp if it's spinning line. It'll be thicker than any 3-4x you can buy and the 3-4x will be stronger. 
Change flies often? Quit being lazy/cheap and re-tie the tippet w/ some new material. I re-tie the tippet every time before I leave the house to fish even if I just changed it last time I fished and used only one fly on the end. W/ a 24" tippet you could get probably 3-5 reties/changes of flies and then you have to chop the stub off and put a new section on.
Your comment on your vicous casting style tells me a lot about your leader,er,lack there-of. You should not have to work to put your line out. I can lay out 60' w/ two false casts cuz I use 1) a proper leader and 2) an efficient casting stroke.Sounds like you may have issues w/ both.
I notice my ole fishing buddy silverbullet chiming in here and I think he can testify to my giving some good advice and knowing about what I speak of. Take it for what it's worth but I think your leader is most of your problem and not your line.I tie my own leaders and tie different formulas for ea type of line, from ones I use for indi fishing,sinking lines,intermediate lines,dry flies,bass fishing,muskies,stripers etc... There is no one leader that can do it all and a simple piece of 4lb spinning line is possibly the worst you could choose to use.
I would agre w/ the comment about cortland being junk but not for lack of it's castability but cuz their floating lines are inclined to sink.
My preference is RIO lines which IMHO are some of the best on the market. I've tried the airflo lines and while they cast nicely they are noisy lines in the guides.
Sharkskin? Could'nt give me one! A passing fad and as long as I've been at this game(more'n 40 yrs) there have been many such passing fads come and go in short order.
SA makes a good line but for floaters no-one beats RIO. 
RIO also has some of the best casting/functional sinking lines IMHO.
It's no exaggeration to say I have close to 50 different spools of flyline and I have tried all makes(some I've used only once or twice and there they sit...junk) but I stick w/ what works best for each purpose.RIO and SA get my votes for the most part but airflos low-stretch intermediate and floating lines are pretty nice too.TC1


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## Clayton (Oct 7, 2008)

the 4 lb I'm using is 4 lb florocarbon leader material. It's extremely thin. What I meant by using up the tippet is that the increasing thickness as I changed flies and cut some of the tippet off eventually kept it from fitting through the eye of my little flies!

I understand what you're saying about the tippet though, I think; once I use up the thinnest portion, I could just replace it with a foot or so of something thin, or do I need to swap out the entire tippet? From shopping around, I'm pretty sure tippets are sort of expensive, and I feel really stupid buying the whole thing and only using the front 8" then getting a new one, it feels wasteful to me.

As far as my cast, I think I have it down fairly well. I can cast 75' with my dads 8'6" rod, and 60 with my rod. It's more work on mine, despite it being a 9' rod. The only difference is that his line has a slick coating and mine does not; therefore, I am inclined to think I'd benefit from line conditioning, or new line altogether.


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## BobcatAngler (Jul 28, 2006)

deaner1971 said:


> Have you cleaned the line and/or your guides much? I am horrible about doing this but when I do, it is like I got a new line.
> 
> I personally use Wonderline by Orvis but I hear really good things about their Clearwater line. It is only $29 so I am thinking I should probably get some to see if I notice a difference. At half the cost of my Wonderline I should at least find out if I am actually getting a tangible advantage for the extra cash.


...I use #4 Clearwater ($29) and #6 Rio Gold ($60). Don't notice a difference. I think a tapered leader is going to help you turn flies over. Really it's a must, but a thirty dollar investment in new line may make a big difference.


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## las johnny (Sep 20, 2007)

i was in the same boat with buying tippets. i started to use 8lb floro carbon and have not noticed to much of a difference at all. instead of paying 10 bucks for a tippet, i pay 10 for a whole roll of line.


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## deaner1971 (Dec 31, 2008)

Clayton said:


> So you kept replacing your tippet, or do you use a knotted tippet and just keep adding more of the last line segment on?
> 
> Because the latter certainly sounds more agreeable.. I wonder if I could get a 4x or 5x tippet, and then just tie a foot or two of my 4 lb leader on there? Or would that COMPLETELY defeat the purpose?
> 
> Sorry for my lack of understanding, but you guys are awesome. Keep the advice coming, and maybe someday I'll even get good at this!


A lack of understanding is where everyone starts out. No one knows this stuff coming out of the womb so don't sweat it.

You talked about cutting your leader until it wouldn't fit through the eyes of the fly. That tells me you are usuing a proper graduated leader but you are not adding on as you go. If you add on as you go and get a good knot, you'll get used to it in no time and with good tight knots, you'll not get snagged as much nor will you hook up a good fish only to see the end of you leader pigtail while a fish swims off with your fly and the tippet you just tied on.

If you let your leader shorten too much (more than a foot to a foot and a half) you will have to start worry about adding that smooth transition back to the leader by tying on tippet of decreasing diameter (you should only really tie a piece of tippet to a section of leader no bigger than on step up in size so if you get too far into your leader, you'll need to tie on some tippet of one size down from the leader that remains, then some tippet of the next size down from the tippet you just tied and some more tippet of the next size down and so on until you get to your targeted size).

If you don't you will see (as you have) flies that will not turn over.

A roll of good tippet will last you a really long time so I wouldn't sweat saving a little here and there on an item that is your lifeline from fly line to fish. The roll of tippet will cost less than the gas to get you to the fish and will ensure that the gas isn't wasted by helping you not to lose fish.

I also tend to carry about a half dozen leaders in the sizes I tend to use. that way if you are in a situation where you get a bad wind knot in your leader and would need to tie on four sizes of tippet to get from the diamter at the knot to the original diameter of the end, you can just unhook the leader and put on a new one (assuming you are using knotless leaders) and get back to the fishing.

If you spend a day being religious about replacing tippet, I think you'll be surprised how well that fly line, that you thought had to go, actually performs.

Sorry, that was long for my two cents.


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## Tall cool one (Jul 13, 2006)

Clayton,no offense buddy but your thinking is flawed. Quit being stubborn and cheap and use a tapered leader. Buy some bulk mono off the spools at BPS 30' of ea size I listed(cheap that way)and use the formula I wrote out for you.You can even keep using your 4lb.I guarantee you will see immediately bettter results.
I've been flyfishing longer than you've been alive and I use a knotted leader in all waters here in Oh and the ONLY time weeds are a problem are on scum-filled ponds,TC1


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