# Kayak Rental and Water Rights



## Haunted by Waters (Oct 12, 2012)

Does anyone know a source in northeast Ohio for kayak rental? I host several friends each spring and fall for steelhead fishing, and they always ask about renting kayaks so they can drift fish the Grand, Chagrin and Vermillion rivers. I have a kayak and trailer, so transporting additional kayaks is not a problem. They don't need any specific make or model. The majority of the time, the kayak is simply used to drift over deeper holes. All of the fishing is done by wading. If anyone has an old kayak and wants to make a quick buck for a rental, shoot me a PM.

Secondly, does anyone know a source for an updated legal document covering public rights in navigable streams in Ohio and PA? I just read a legal extract that debunked the conventional wisdom that you could float over posted property by if you touched bottom you were tresspassing. At least in NY, the courts have rules that on any stream that is "Navigable in Fact," it is implied that there will be occasions where it may be necessary to touch the stream bottom to circumvent rapids or shallows. The interesting part is that most landowners and many local law enforcement agencies don't know this right to access exists.


----------



## shwookie (Jun 15, 2007)

Haunted by Waters said:


> Secondly, does anyone know a source for an updated legal document covering public rights in navigable streams in Ohio and PA? I just read a legal extract that debunked the conventional wisdom that you could float over posted property by if you touched bottom you were tresspassing. At least in NY, the courts have rules that on any stream that is "Navigable in Fact," it is implied that there will be occasions where it may be necessary to touch the stream bottom to circumvent rapids or shallows. The interesting part is that most landowners and many local law enforcement agencies don't know this right to access exists.


Lemme grab a bag of popcorn and a lawn chair, this is gonna be good.

Bottom line is Ohio is a mess and no one can agree with what is the law and what is not. The county sheriff will always side with the property owner and tell you to just move along. There is truly no clear cut posting as far as I know.


----------



## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

Do a search on "trespassing" on the site search and see what comes up. This was the latest of the water rights threads: http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=221908&highlight=trespassing&page=6

But the weather still sucks enough for this one to go five or six pages...


----------



## SeanStone (Sep 8, 2010)

If theres no one around and theres not a "no trespassing" sign posted i'd say you'll be alright. Get out and take a few casts, use the restroom, stretch, etc. 

If someone had a problem, more than likely they will tell you to leave...at that point do so.

Our streams down here are so remote that i dont think we'll have a problem. Typically if theres houses around, people bank fish, which means I'd rather fish elsewhere anyway.


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## M.Magis (Apr 5, 2004)

Haunted by Waters said:


> Secondly, does anyone know a source for an updated legal document covering public rights in navigable streams in Ohio and PA? I just read a legal extract that debunked the conventional wisdom that you could float over posted property by if you touched bottom you were tresspassing. At least in NY, the courts have rules that on any stream that is "Navigable in Fact," it is implied that there will be occasions where it may be necessary to touch the stream bottom to circumvent rapids or shallows. The interesting part is that most landowners and many local law enforcement agencies don't know this right to access exists.


Were in Ohio. New York laws dont apply, so that doesnt debunk anything. As mentioned, Ohio law has been discussed here numerous times.


----------



## cpr_mike1 (Feb 25, 2009)

SeanStone said:


> If theres no one around and theres not a "no trespassing" sign posted i'd say you'll be alright. Get out and take a few casts, use the restroom, stretch, etc.
> 
> If someone had a problem, more than likely they will tell you to leave...at that point do so.
> 
> ...



This is pretty close to my beliefs. If there is a house off the water and the property appears to be taken care of, I move on and do not get out at all.


----------



## PapawSmith (Feb 13, 2007)

cpr_mike1 said:


> This is pretty close to my beliefs. If there is a house off the water and the property appears to be taken care of, I move on and do not get out at all.


Another words, It is OK to trespass as long as no one can see you? 

Ohio has a simple law, which I do not favor by the way, that states if your feet are touching the stream bed as the stream passes thru private land you are trespassing. Almost too easy to foul that one up IMO.


----------



## Salmonid (Apr 14, 2004)

1 thing is VERY clear and defined in Ohio's laws is that if you are using the river/stream as a Highway, meaning you are traveling from one point to another downstream ( that is public) and there is a barrier, weather it be permanent (dam) or seasonal, ( a tree across the stream or a riffle so low that you MUST get out to portage) that you are indeed, allowed to portage or walk around it assuming you take the shortest safe route and you will NOT be cited for trespassing. 

Where this gets scary is by definition of a stream, and this applys when you are traveling, (not fishing) because under Ohio's laws, all streams big enough to be used for commerce, are by defintion, are listed as "Highways" by law. and there is even a refference to include a waterway that even if only at high water, is big enough to flaot a log downstream, is big enough to be deemed a Highway by law, these are old laws and is what allows you to float through a private property with no problems but the real problem comes in when you start using the "river highway" for recreational reasons vs using it for commerce. these laws are ONLY for when using the river as a highway, Does that make sense??, once you start casting, you technically are "Hunting without permission" and that gets into another longer rant.. Ill save that for another time and place. 

Bottom line is as already stated, float it, wade minimally,leave no trace, and if asked to leave, do so imediately 

Salmonid


----------



## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

I suggest reading the other 1000 pages of this topic already discussed on OGF. You still won't be any closer to your answer afterwards but it is good reading while it is cold outside.


----------



## Bubbagon (Mar 8, 2010)

I've done a handful of kayak fishing seminars and stuff lately. At every single one of them this question comes up. It's a VERY legitimate question, as there's no real good answer.

I understand the law WELL. I've decided, FOR ME, I act respectfully and in a manner that reflects the Federal river rights (Held in public trust, blah blah blah).
BUT, I do this knowing full well that someday I could get cited for trespassing. It's unlikely, but completely possible. And knowing that I will use that opportunity to challenge the law as far as I can go, and as far as money allows.

Throwing a little tea in the bay is alright with me and I sleep just fine at night.


----------



## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

A stream is a stream and i will fish it. I dont leave trash and seldom take anything while im fishing. I know im not doing any harm so i dont mind myself being there. Now if you see me on what you view as your property then you may by all means ask me to leave. Now the important thing is how you ask me. Because you do have the right to come yell and scream at me but it is not going to do you much good. Lucky for me im a fairly large individual and the closer people get the reasonable they act. 

I have had my bucket shot on the ground near my feet. So i called the sheriff and continued fishing until they came out while Crazy McGee continued to point a gun at me. The look on his face when i handed the dep the permission slip from the person who actually owned the creek. I keep the hunt/fish permission in my wallet because its my primary hunting spot. I imagine the last thing that crazy old man expected was for the deputy to ask me if i wanted to press charges for destruction of personal property. I replied an apology will be just be just fine.


The law is written in a stupid way and needs cleared up. 

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## backlashed (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm busy replacing bird shot with salt as I read this. 

I'm a land owner with a creek running through it. Just don't get out of your yak is all I can say. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## fishingful (Apr 5, 2004)

Only place I can think of that will rent kayaks that you are able to take anyplace is the Kent States Student Recreation and Wellness Center. Contact Dave. He is the Outdoor Coordinator and an American Canoe Association Instructor Trainer. He would know if there were any kayak rental places closer to you. He worked for Cleveland Metro Parks so he would know up there.


----------



## streamstalker (Jul 8, 2005)

delete


----------



## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Bubbagon you got me curious as that this idea is what I have always followed but not familiar with it in federal form. Do you have any more info on the national river rights. I know that every state has their own laws but I'm ok with having a federal law to cite while im doing as I please, lol.

The only thing I found so far is from 'The National Organization for Rivers (NORS)'
on http://www.nationalrivers.org/us-law-public.htm
It is just a summary and not sure of the validity of it. But it reads

*First, the public has the right to use all running waters, (even streams that are not physically navigable,) for activities such as fishing, (subject to state regulations to conserve fisheries,) and to walk along the banks as necessary to use these waters, in the manner that is least intrusive to private land.

Second, on streams that are temporarily physically navigable by small craft, (even if they are not navigable for title purposes,) the public has the right to navigate, and to scout and portage around rapids, falls, or other obstacles, in the manner least intrusive to private land.

Third, on rivers and streams that are, in fact, navigable for title purposes, (because they fit the description given earlier, with or without official designation,) the beds and banks are public land, up to the ordinary high water line. Courts have held that the public can engage in other responsible recreation (in addition to fishing and boating) within this zone, such as picnics, camping, walking, resting, reading, photography, and painting. When walking along the river, the public can walk above the high water line where necessary to get around obstacles, in the manner least intrusive to private land. The public can use the banks of these rivers year round, even if the water has dried up. (On rivers that are not navigable for title purposes, the public can only use the banks as necessary to make use of the water, and the right to use the banks comes and goes with the water.)

*


----------



## lotaluck (Dec 17, 2009)

backlashed said:


> I'm busy replacing bird shot with salt as I read this.
> 
> I'm a land owner with a creek running through it. Just don't get out of your yak is all I can say.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is you will shoot someone with your bird shot and salt loads if they get out of there yak on your property?.


----------



## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Funny but Not true at all. I Havnt laid my hands on person since I was a child and I have no plans too. But I have not felt the need to. I have been threatened many times while fishing and have ignored all of them. Anyone can yell from their porch but once they get face to face they tend to change there minds. I have invited many people to come follow through with threats and none of them chose too. There was the crazy old man with the shotgun but I never actually said a word to him, plus he was a bad-A old man (sorta clint eastwood type). And I just about peed my pants. 

Its not about disrespect to land owners. I will fish streams if I have to risk a fine I will. Its more about the fact that most of the people who try to run you off "their land" dont actually have the right too. Heck I have been ran off my parents land multiple times by mead and mead leasers. 

My parents own both side of a creek that people walk down and ride quads and buggies down all the time its not a big deal. But if we see someone bait fishing in it we politely ask them to move on and they do. I have went from door to door looking for my minnow traps many times and it turns out one of the neighbors kids picked it up not meaning any harm, no big deal.

Where I live, If i din't trespass I would almost never get to fish and that is sad. Truth is, 90% of landowners come and chit-chat about fishing and are vary friendly. But at the same time I have never been granted access to places by stopping at random house and asking permission and I have tried many times.


----------



## DC9781 (Apr 3, 2009)

backlashed said:


> I'm busy replacing bird shot with salt as I read this.
> 
> I'm a land owner with a creek running through it. Just don't get out of your yak is all I can say.
> 
> ...


So what exactly are you going to do there backlashed? now I'm curious


----------



## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

Here's my take....never mind, getting my popcorn ready

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## StuckAtHome (Apr 29, 2004)

Damn, 

You have every right to float the river, no rights to the land below, fishing is technically trespassing period, do what you want with that.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## F1504X4 (Mar 23, 2008)

Regardless of what federal law says you always have to go by what the state or local law is. Federal laws are made as a baseline but each state can deviate from it as long as it is not a lesser restriction. 


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

F1504X4 said:


> Regardless of what federal law says you always have to go by what the state or local law is. Federal laws are made as a baseline but each state can deviate from it as long as it is not a lesser restriction.
> 
> 
> Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


True and no one is saying otherwise. But the ohio law is not a created law, just a generally adapted common law set in England before this place was a country. It seems to be one that could be fought due to the fact that cases against these laws have been overturned at state and federal courts many times all over this country.

In short, its something to scream out while they are loading me into a police car. Not anything that will get me out of trouble. lol

They tend to confuse people too, that can be helpful.


----------



## SeanStone (Sep 8, 2010)

backlashed said:


> I'm busy replacing bird shot with salt as I read this.
> 
> I'm a land owner with a creek running through it. Just don't get out of your yak is all I can say.
> 
> ...


I too hope this was a joke. I dont want to feel like i need to get a concealed cary license to feel safe in my kayak....and I dont need another leash on my kayak. They make a ram mount for a handgun? Lol. (A joke for your joke.)

If you fire at someone rock salt or not, and they return fire it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not it was self defence. ( Something serious to think over if your comment was serious.) Your land or not, thats not going to fly well.

As a fellow fisherman I enjoy fishing and like for others to enjoy it. If i had a creek on my property i wouldn't mind if people on kayaks/ boats used its banks....as long as they stay there and dont wander around my property. 


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

As for kayak rentals, I wish there where more places that you could rent and take with you. I know I would have more fishing buddies along with me if they did. But Im sure there is too much risk to the owner. If you use it at their place they have some idea of where you are and how you are using it, along with the risks of it being damaged. And if you take off with it they have your car, lol


----------



## longhaulpointer (Mar 12, 2009)

rustyfish said:


> Lucky for me im a fairly large individual and the closer people get the reasonable they act.
> 
> posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire




I hear ya on that one 6' 5" 250, ding. I love how people act from far and get nicer the closer they get.


----------



## Deazl666 (Mar 30, 2012)

backlashed said:


> I'm busy replacing bird shot with salt as I read this.
> 
> I'm a land owner with a creek running through it. Just don't get out of your yak is all I can say.
> 
> ...


You better be fully loaded with a good attorney and be sure to take your astroglide to court, cause you may need it afterward. Truly shocking and disappointing response, IMO...

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire


----------



## rustyfish (Apr 27, 2004)

Almost thought this one was over, lol.

I understand how my comments could spark that reaction. I don't like to trespass and I would not do so in any other setting. I think anyone can tell the difference between someone with the intent to do harm and a fisherman. No it doesn't does not make it legal but it is not a situation that requires violence either. I will leave an area and not return if I am ask to, but I leave that decision up to them. 

I have a hard time imagining that anyone who spend the good part of a day in a kayak on a stream has zero intention of ever leaving that kayak for any reason. Maybe there is more public land where you live, but down here it doesn't exist.


----------

