# Castle doctrine story



## leftfordead88

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region_northern_kentucky/man-shot-in-chest-in-crittenden


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## 9Left

hmmm...even in your own home...i think you still have a "duty to retriet" or somehow get away from the robber before resorting to deadly force...sounds like he just sat by the door and waited for the robber to come to him...kinda screwed up he doesnt get charged with murder


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## CATMAN447

You have no responsibility to leave youre own home. Thats one of the reasons the doctrine was put into effect in the first place. All you have to do is prove that the invader poses an immediate threat to the safety or lives of yourself or your family. Same applies to your place of business. 

That's not to say you won't have your day in court, but you certainly would not be charged. The Castle doctrine also protects you from civil suits.


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## SMBHooker

I'll be shooting first and asking questions later if I find someone in my home. You can not know what the intentions are of someone bold enough to break into your house. Just watch the local evening news there's plenty of crazy around. I've got no sympathy for these criminals! I agree with the home owner 100% on this one.


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## scallop

Fishlandr75 said:


> hmmm...even in your own home...i think you still have a "duty to retriet" or somehow get away from the robber before resorting to deadly force...sounds like he just sat by the door and waited for the robber to come to him...kinda screwed up he doesnt get charged with murder


No what is screwed up is he had to fear for his own life and safety in HIS OWN HOME. Too bad he did not get the other two scumbags.


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## 9Left

read it again....didnt sound like he was too fearful...he waited for the guy to come up the stairs, open the door, then killed him..so he couldnt have called the police? he coulda found 20 other ways to avoid it, im not sayin people dont have the right to protect themselves with deadly force, but sittin there, waiting on someone to show themselves? knowing you have time to get out, call the police, or make your presence known and scare the KID that broke in?? I understand , if someones raping or beating your wife or kid..kill the bastard dead! People just wanna find a reason to sling lead and take another life...its an ignorant way of thinking... The burglar wasnt even armed....yayaya..your gonna say " but the homeowner didnt know that" he had time to think about it..thats murder. I know you think in F'd up.. but breaking into your home and stealing a TV doesnt justify taking a human life... if the guy has a weapon, or comes at you, threatens you..well thats different...protect yourself! I have benn broken into twice in my house a few years back.. i had loaded guns for protection.. it was a couple of 19 year old shits that broke in... i yelled and chased 'em with a bat, they ran off, i called the police, they were caught and went to jail...but at least those KIDS can spend some time in jail, ALIVE, and think about their stupidity... a person cant change for the better if theyre dead


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## leftfordead88

This man was 100% right for what he did, and I support him and our "make my day law" fully. 

With the doctrine I don't believe you need to prove anything besides the fact they broke into your home and were not invited in. I know ccw encounters are alot different. 


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## leftfordead88

Fishlandr75 said:


> read it again....didnt sound like he was too fearful...he waited for the guy to come up the stairs, open the door, then killed him..so he couldnt have called the police? he coulda found 20 other ways to avoid it, im not sayin people dont have the right to protect themselves with deadly force, but sittin there, waiting on someone to show themselves? knowing you have time to get out, call the police, or make your presence known and scare the KID that broke in?? I understand , if someones raping or beating your wife or kid..kill the bastard dead! People just wanna find a reason to sling lead and take another life...its an ignorant way of thinking... The burglar wasnt even armed....yayaya..your gonna say " but the homeowner didnt know that" he had time to think about it..thats murder. I know you think in F'd up.. but breaking into your home and stealing a TV doesnt justify taking a human life... if the guy has a weapon, or comes at you, threatens you..well thats different...protect yourself! I have benn broken into twice in my house a few years back.. i had loaded guns for protection.. it was a couple of 19 year old shits that broke in... i yelled and chased 'em with a bat, they ran off, i called the police, they were caught and went to jail...but at least those KIDS can spend some time in jail, ALIVE, and think about their stupidity... a person cant change for the better if theyre dead


If someone casually broke into my home in the middle of the night, I'm not going to wait around to figure out their motive. They will be shot on sight. I promise you that my friend! 



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## spikeg79

I would give them a warning first, they stay after the warning they're asking for it.


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## boatnut

robbed in the past. 92 years old. armed with a .22. more power to him.


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## CATMAN447

Fishlandr75 said:


> read it again....didnt sound like he was too fearful...he waited for the guy to come up the stairs, open the door, then killed him..so he couldnt have called the police? he coulda found 20 other ways to avoid it, im not sayin people dont have the right to protect themselves with deadly force, but sittin there, waiting on someone to show themselves? knowing you have time to get out, call the police, or make your presence known and scare the KID that broke in?? I understand , if someones raping or beating your wife or kid..kill the bastard dead! People just wanna find a reason to sling lead and take another life...its an ignorant way of thinking... The burglar wasnt even armed....yayaya..your gonna say " but the homeowner didnt know that" he had time to think about it..thats murder. I know you think in F'd up.. but breaking into your home and stealing a TV doesnt justify taking a human life... if the guy has a weapon, or comes at you, threatens you..well thats different...protect yourself! I have benn broken into twice in my house a few years back.. i had loaded guns for protection.. it was a couple of 19 year old shits that broke in... i yelled and chased 'em with a bat, they ran off, i called the police, they were caught and went to jail...but at least those KIDS can spend some time in jail, ALIVE, and think about their stupidity... a person cant change for the better if theyre dead


I certainly understand where your coming from and can appreciate your opinions. However, I deal with this level of society on a nightly basis and I am constantly reminded of what people are capable of. The bottom line is, you have NO idea what is going through the intruders head and what they are planning on doing. There is no way to know if it is just some kid looking to steal your tv or someone who is going to do MUCH worse. If someone ever made the mistake of breaking into my house, they would NOT be given the opportunity to harm my family, or anyone elses for that matter. I definitely wouldn't ask the intruder what their intentions are! If there is a threat in my "Castle", I will deal with it, and I'll sleep like a baby knowing my family is safe. 

Just my thoughts.


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## icingdeath

when entering ones home with evil intentions....be preparred to accept the consequence if caught. my home was a victim of a break in/assault.the docket didnt know an ak is legal to own!please!they make more laws than they can keep up with.all they want is the loopholes.we as americans have the right to protect what is ours!i agree with what the old man did.message well sent!what if it was one of your parents or grandparents' home?


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## MassillonBuckeye

leftfordead88 said:


> If someone casually broke into my home in the middle of the night, I'm not going to wait around to figure out their motive. They will be shot on sight. I promise you that my friend!
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Could be a family member in trouble? Wouldn't you call out first? Wouldn't you want to make sure it wasnt someone you knew?? I think I would yell first. Make sure they knew they were about to lose their life if they didn't beat it. Maybe its your drunken uncle Ernie who knows. A lot can happen in a few seconds though so who knows. You have to protect yourself I suppose. Personally I'd make my intentions known. They'd have about .5 sec to identify themselves or run.


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## leftfordead88

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Could be a family member in trouble? Wouldn't you call out first? Wouldn't you want to make sure it wasnt someone you knew?? I think I would yell first. Make sure they knew they were about to lose their life if they didn't beat it. Maybe its your drunken uncle Ernie who knows. A lot can happen in a few seconds though so who knows. You have to protect yourself I suppose. Personally I'd make my intentions known. They'd have about .5 sec to identify themselves or run.


I can see all I need to see with my 180 lumen tac light. There wouldn't be any mistakes 


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## Berliner

CATMAN447 said:


> All you have to do is prove that the *invader poses an immediate threat* to the safety or lives of yourself or your family.


This is important. What does immediate threat mean? It means your trapped and your life is in immediate threat. Like hes sitting on top of you about to bring a brick down on your head - Then you can shoot.


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## CATMAN447

Berliner said:


> This is important. What does immediate threat mean? It means your trapped and your life is in immediate threat. Like hes sitting on top of you about to bring a brick down on your head - Then you can shoot.


Not exactly. All you must prove is that he has the ability to "sit on top if you about to bring a brick down on your head." The doctrine is in place so that the scenario does not have to escalate to that level.

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## 9Left

I'll reiterate... I'm all for ccw, and protecting yourself.. I wouldn't give some guy a chance to harm my family either..but I'd definitely try other means first before deadly force. There IS a line between " thinking" your life is in danger...and it actually being in danger.just like catman states. ( I'm guessing he's a cop based on his reply) ask a cop how many times he has actually fired his weapon... It's prolly not many..if at all. You know why? Because they use GOOD judgement, they disarm a situation in other ways first before taking a life.

Just a scenario... 15 years from now...your son gets involved with the wrong bunch of kids... Gets dared to Break in to a house and take a tv..now he's dead cause some guy didn't think first and maybe just kick his ass...or warn him with a gun first..maybe even chase him off... He'd at least be ALIVE for you to ground his ass and intervene. I guess I'm tryin to say...think first


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## CATMAN447

Fishlandr75 said:


> I'll reiterate... I'm all for ccw, and protecting yourself.. I wouldn't give some guy a chance to harm my family either..but I'd definitely try other means first before deadly force. There IS a line between " thinking" your life is in danger...and it actually being in danger.just like catman states. ( I'm guessing he's a cop based on his reply) ask a cop how many times he has actually fired his weapon... It's prolly not many..if at all. You know why? Because they use GOOD judgement, they disarm a situation in other ways first before taking a life.
> 
> Just a scenario... 15 years from now...your son gets involved with the wrong bunch of kids... Gets dared to Break in to a house and take a tv..now he's dead cause some guy didn't think first and maybe just kick his ass...or warn him with a gun first..maybe even chase him off... He'd at least be ALIVE for you to ground his ass and intervene. I guess I'm tryin to say...think first


Well, now that my cover is blown, let the hate mail start pouring in. Just last week, I was involved in two resistings. That is to say I made two arrests over the course of a week where the guy tried to fight me! These are two examples of someone willing to assault a UNIFORMED OFFICER! What do you think that person would do to someone he knew was NOT an officer. Someone who doesn't have backup on the way, no training, no body armor, taser, pepper spray etc. The people are out there folks and they are not nearly as rare as we would like to believe.

Ultimately, there is no real right or wrong answer. All you can do is what you believe is right for you and your family. Im certainly not going to tell anyone what they should do in I situation as serious as that.


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## Yanky

Good for him. 

Also, hes 92. Just about everything is a danger to a 92 year old. Even more reason to be fearful and act to protect yourself.

Ill say it again, good for him.


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## CATMAN447

Yanky said:


> Good for him.
> 
> Also, hes 92. Just about everything is a danger to a 92 year old. Even more reason to be fearful and act to protect yourself.
> 
> Ill say it again, good for him.


+1

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## monsterKAT11

You break into someone's home be ready to accept the consequence. Which in today's world could very well be death. It's just a matter of time before they start realizing that. And if not, a bunch of dead men with evil intentions is just fine with me.


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## scallop

You can pretty much bet that someone who has forced an illegal entry to your home is not there to tuck you in, give you a night night kiss and put a mint on your pillow. Call the police? Seriously do you have any clue how long it takes an officer to respond? 10 mins? 15 mins? 30 mins? A heck of alot of mayhem can happen while waiting on the police to show, which will probably be escalated when the intruder is made aware that they are coming. Thank you but no, I will take my chances and do what I feel is needed to protect my wife, children and myself. There is a simple way to avoid confrontation like this, stay the hell out of other peoples homes! If you choose to ignore this common sense path then be ready for the concequences. I refuse to be a victim. How do you know these idiots did not have concealed weapons? How do you know they were not going to wait until everyone was asleep and smother them with their own pillows? You don't. Unfortunately this is the world we live in and I am sure not going to put my trust in some douche that has broken in to my house that "he means no harm".....I just do not understand the sheep mentality....................


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## RiPpInLiPs614

Castle doctorine...... Hmmm. As a cc member myself. Once I was alerted in my home that someone was there here's my take an opinion. I grab my weapon ( glock 23) call the police, now if I had kids I would be straight to their room first and foremost clearing the hallway on my way. Now if it is an intruder and we made contact my firearm would.be raised and pointed straight at chest, my instructions would be to.get on the ground .if he runs away down the stairs I do not follow I stay upstairs and wait for the police, if he takes one step towards me I.fire two.the chest or until the threat stops. Same.thing if I go to kids room and don't see intruder I do.not go downstairs. Someay have diff views but thats me. 

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## BigTripp

Fishlandr75 said:


> read it again....didnt sound like he was too fearful...he waited for the guy to come up the stairs, open the door, then killed him..so he couldnt have called the police? he coulda found 20 other ways to avoid it...


The dude is 92 and multiple people were in his house. If it was a family member don't you think they would've knocked on the front door? He may not have a phone in the room he was in and it's not like he had 10 minutes to wait for the police to get there anyway. If he yells "Who's there?" and they're armed then they know where he is. If he waits to ask them their intentions what keeps them from drawing first if they are armed? I mean, do you expect a 92 year old man to run and hide under his bed so he doesn't have to hurt people who broke into his house?


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## Berliner

What about police raids? The guys 92, I'm sure his hearing and vision sucks and police get the wrong house sometimes. What if he took one of them out? Do the police have to announce themselves before kicking in your door or is the castle built for civilians only?


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## CATMAN447

Berliner said:


> Do the police have to announce themselves before kicking in your door?




Yes, they do.


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## Lowell H Turner

Am basically a peaceful person, BUT in several decades have come to the simple conclusion there are both foolish and/ or just plain flatout EVIL people in the world whom simply have absolutely NO regard for others and likely simply see them as either threats or prey. IF a person goes against the taught and well known basic laws of society and forcibly enters the dwelling of another for WHATEVER reason, either in a warped sense of defying society or with heartfelt murder/ robbery/ loot/ rape/ plunder/ arson or just the thrill of doing it as a motive BE FOREWARNED: there ARE those of society who WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND, PERMANENTLY and VIOLENTLY IF NECESSARY...call the police if possible, certainly. But be a passive victim of a senseless FOOL willingly? DO NOT BET YOUR LIFE ON IT...


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## Berliner

CATMAN447 said:


> Yes, they do.



Whats the policy on that? Yell police then instantly kick in the door?


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## CATMAN447

Berliner said:


> Whats the policy on that? Yell police then instantly kick in the door?


Obviously, no one is going to kick someones door in over an outstanding speed/seatbelt warrant. On the other hand, a meth lab or human trafficking ring, perhaps they would. In that case, so much time, surveillance and investigation has been invested that you can rest assured, a SWAT team will not mistakenly crash through your door any time soon. If you do, you may just be the first and enjoy spending your lawsuit winnings! Police just can't go around kicking doors in willy nilly.


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## viper1

People who break into homes they know people occupy. Have made their minds up to use force to rob you. If not theyd break in where no one was home. Break into my home and you made your first mistake. Break in with my family there and you made your last. I back him and the law 100%. More dead criminals will give the others some thing to think about. Im not here to convert criminals.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## CATMAN447

viper1 said:


> People who break into homes they know people occupy. Have made their minds up to use force to rob you. If not theyd break in where no one was home. Break into my home and you made your first mistake. Break in with my family there and you made your last. I back him and the law 100%. More dead criminals will give the others some thing to think about. Im not here to convert criminals.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Well said, sir!


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## JOE W

they should give the old man the keys to the city!!!!!!!!


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## Benboat

Fishlandr75 said:


> hmmm...even in your own home...i think you still have a "duty to retriet" or somehow get away from the robber before resorting to deadly force...sounds like he just sat by the door and waited for the robber to come to him...kinda screwed up he doesnt get charged with murder


This kind of thinking is what scares me of our current spineless society. We need real Americans like the majority of the people who have replied to this topic to do what is right and protect our families and defend against the evil in this world. Are you serious, retreat in your OWN home? If more people would stand up against these thugs there would be less crime. I better stop here.

When seconds count in a situation like this, the police are only minutes away.


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## leftfordead88

viper1 said:


> People who break into homes they know people occupy. Have made their minds up to use force to rob you. If not theyd break in where no one was home. Break into my home and you made your first mistake. Break in with my family there and you made your last. I back him and the law 100%. More dead criminals will give the others some thing to think about. Im not here to convert criminals.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Wellllllllll said


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## Sharp Charge

Fishlandr75 said:


> hmmm...even in your own home...i think you still have a "duty to retriet" or somehow get away from the robber before resorting to deadly force...sounds like he just sat by the door and waited for the robber to come to him...kinda screwed up he doesnt get charged with murder


As others have said, no duty to retreat what so ever, and per the letter of the law, it's presumed that someone who has unlawfully entered your home or vehicle is there to do you harm. This man was perfectly in his right by Ohio law to act as he did. I'm not sure how close Ky Castle Doctrine is to Ohio's but I imagine it's similar.

Here's the quote from the Ohio Revised Code: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.05


(B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.


http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.09

2901.09 No duty to retreat in residence or vehicle.

(B) For purposes of any section of the Revised Code that sets forth a criminal offense, a person who lawfully is in that person&#8217;s residence has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense...


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## BigV

CATMAN447 said:


> You have no responsibility to leave youre own home. Thats one of the reasons the doctrine was put into effect in the first place. All you have to do is prove that the invader poses an immediate threat to the safety or lives of yourself or your family. Same applies to your place of business.
> 
> That's not to say you won't have your day in court, but you certainly would not be charged. The Castle doctrine also protects you from civil suits.


Under the provisions of the Castle Doctrine you do not have to prove imminent threat. When an intruder enters your home there is a presumption that the intruder(s) is/are there to cause great bodily injury or death. Therefore the imminent threat is implied.

In addition, the burden of proof switches to the prosecution to prove you did not act in self defense or the defense of another. The homeowner is also immune from civil liability and can not be sued for wrongful death by family members. 



> (B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another *if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.*


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## 9dodgefan

Castle Doctrine aside, anyone that breaks into my house when I'm home, regardless of whether or not any of my family is within, will be met with gunfire. The burden does not lie within the homeowner to establish intent or motive on someone that has unlawfully entered their home. 

It's a sad state of affairs that we must judge the actions of a man exercising his right to protect himself.


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## Wannabitawerm

I agree with the castle doctrine but, this guy should've called the police first and then made an attempt to scare them off before they got in. Waiting for them to enter, whether they're breaking in or not, is not reasonable effort to avoid confrontation. Not saying he ha to leave but he should have at lead said, I'm armed and the cops are coming! Leave now or be shot 


Ain't technology great? Now I can be distracted by fishing everywhere I go!


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## MassillonBuckeye

leftfordead88 said:


> I can see all I need to see with my 180 lumen tac light. There wouldn't be any mistakes
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Just saying. How about your porch? What if some strange person is on your porch for some reason? How do you think you'd handle that?


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## monsterKAT11

Wannabitawerm said:


> I agree with the castle doctrine but, this guy should've called the police first and then made an attempt to scare them off before they got in. Waiting for them to enter, whether they're breaking in or not, is not reasonable effort to avoid confrontation. Not saying he ha to leave but he should have at lead said, I'm armed and the cops are coming! Leave now or be shot
> 
> 
> Ain't technology great? Now I can be distracted by fishing everywhere I go!


wow. just wow.


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## leftfordead88

MassillonBuckeye said:


> Just saying. How about your porch? What if some strange person is on your porch for some reason? How do you think you'd handle that?


Well if a strange person is on my porch and not inside my home that's different. If somebody was lurking around outside I would call the police to have them come over. But That's a wayyyy different situation. But the moment that person try's to enter my home they will be shot dead. Period


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## 9Left

Yanky said:


> Good for him.
> 
> Also, hes 92. Just about everything is a danger to a 92 year old. Even more reason to be fearful and act to protect yourself.
> 
> Ill say it again, good for him.


thats crap... there is a 80 year old man living down the street ffrom me...just found his ass by accident on the internet... as a sex offender, 3 times over..age has nothing to do with it... being "old" doesnt make you innocent.. people just assume..old=cute and innocent


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## Lundy

These cases always bring out the what-ifs, and the shoulda, coulda, woulda.

I don't want to ever shoot anybody, and certainly not if there is another recourse, BUT I wasn't there in that house, that night, with 3 guys coming up my basement steps. I hadn't been robbed previously; I don't know what he feared of didn't fear. I don't know what the intruders intentions were and I won't second guess his decision and action.

When and if I am ever confronted in my home with an intruder I will react as I deem appropriate based upon the circumstances at that time. I will at that moment not be concerned about what anyone else may think or do faced with the same situation If I believe I need to respond with deadly force I will.


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## CATMAN447

Fishlandr75 said:


> thats crap... there is a 80 year old man living down the street ffrom me...just found his ass by accident on the internet... as a sex offender, 3 times over..age has nothing to do with it... being "old" doesnt make you innocent.. people just assume..old=cute and innocent


That's not the point at all. Being 92 doesn't make you innocent, it makes you frail and vulnerable.


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## celtic11

CATMAN447 said:


> That's not the point at all. Being 92 doesn't make you innocent, it makes you frail and vulnerable.


At 92 years old there is no way this man could've physically handled a physical confrontation that could've occurred had he attempted to find out the intruders intentions. Maybe the intruder didn't plan to harm anyone, but bad people will make rash decisions to keep themselves out of trouble, and at 92 years old simply pushing this man to the ground could have given him a laundry list of health complications that his body simply cannot overcome. 

My wife is a nurse and time and time again she has elderly people come into the hospital with routine type injuries for most people that the elderly simply can never recover from.

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## 9Left

RiPpInLiPs614 said:


> Castle doctorine...... Hmmm. As a cc member myself. Once I was alerted in my home that someone was there here's my take an opinion. I grab my weapon ( glock 23) call the police, now if I had kids I would be straight to their room first and foremost clearing the hallway on my way. Now if it is an intruder and we made contact my firearm would.be raised and pointed straight at chest, my instructions would be to.get on the ground .if he runs away down the stairs I do not follow I stay upstairs and wait for the police, if he takes one step towards me I.fire two.the chest or until the threat stops. Same.thing if I go to kids room and don't see intruder I do.not go downstairs. Someay have diff views but thats me.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I think this describes what I'm trying to say... think before you shoot...I support and believe in my rights to own a gun for protection.. .. And I have one..I'm with you guys here.. IF mine or my families life was in danger.. I'd shoot..to kill.. But I'm surely not ignorant enough to assume there Is a possible threat... And kill someone just because I know the law would support it..


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## celtic11

Fishlandr75 said:


> I think this describes what I'm trying to say... think before you shoot...I support and believe in my rights to own a gun for protection.. .. And I have one..I'm with you guys here.. IF mine or my families life was in danger.. I'd shoot..to kill.. But I'm surely not ignorant enough to assume there Is a possible threat... And kill someone just because I know the law would support it..


By the time you know for sure if your life is in danger, it very well could be too late. What happens when the elderly man announces his presence to scare away the bad guys and gets greeted with a handful of. 45 rounds coming through the door. I bet he would be glad he knew for sure then. Another thing is like I said, many times people don't intend to be a threat, but become a threat when confronted. 

I am sure you wont change your mind, but when someone is in your house walking up your stairs, you might think a little differently.

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## 9Left

Like I posted earlier... I use to live in a bad neighborhood.. Been broke into several times.. Each time.. I had a loaded gun.. Easily accessible to me... I lnew i could take care of the problem w/o deadly force.You are correct... It may not happen that way next Time... The right to carry/conceal is a wonderful thing in our country ... But it also comes with a greater redponsibilty... Thinking clearly


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## 9Left

celtic11 said:


> At 92 years old there is no way this man could've physically handled a physical confrontation that could've occurred had he attempted to find out the intruders intentions. Maybe the intruder didn't plan to harm anyone, but bad people will make rash decisions to keep themselves out of trouble, and at 92 years old simply pushing this man to the ground could have given him a laundry list of health complications that his body simply cannot overcome.
> 
> My wife is a nurse and time and time again she has elderly people come into the hospital with routine type injuries for most people that the elderly simply can never recover from.
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Point taken... I was off base there


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## 9Left

monsterKAT11 said:


> wow. just wow.


I'm guessing your saying "wow" because you think a guy is a wuss if he doesn't ignorantly pull the trigger and take a life.. Those guys who would just grab a gun and shoot... Shouldn't have the right to own a gun.. Theres a lot to be said about staying calm in a situation and thinking clearly


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## Lowell H Turner

Simply put, YES if possible, call the law, but REALISTICALLY do not expect them to arrive for 5- 20 minutes. Meanwhile, just be friendly, get the home invader a cold 1 out of the fridge, hand him (them?) the remote and chit chat ? NOT ON HIS LIFE...who the (deleted ) is supposed to feel "safe" in YOUR home ? In MINE, if I DO NOT feel "safe" no ignorant criminal is going to feel "at ease" at my or my family`s expense ! He (they?) just became "Darwin Award " material...


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## RiPpInLiPs614

Benboat, like others are saying you have no duty to retreat in your own home, vehicle or your friends home or vehicle. That's why the castle dictorine is in place. Now if were outside you have the duty to retreat, try and avoid the situation. But in your home or vehicle you stand firm, call the police and use deadly force at your own discretion 

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## 9Left

I guess this thread could go on forever... People have the right to protect themselves when lives are in danger, no argument about it..and they have the right to use deadly force if/ when it's called for. I do think there is a lot to be said about thinking rationally and clearly before making a movevthay would stick with me for ever


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## ezbite

Wannabitawerm said:


> I agree with the castle doctrine but, this guy should've called the police first and then made an attempt to scare them off before they got in. Waiting for them to enter, whether they're breaking in or not, is not reasonable effort to avoid confrontation. Not saying he ha to leave but he should have at lead said, I'm armed and the cops are coming! Leave now or be shot



no doubt in my mind he knew they were coming, probably has happened before.. so tell me... how many times does it take before they duct tape him to a chair and torture him?? dont say it cant happen either.. i hope he made head shots..


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## Perch

I'll Add in a tad more info for everyone before this one gets nuked.

Here in Cincy , this case got alot of coverage on the local news channels.

1) It was in Kentucky
2) All three intruders were known Heroin junkies and desparate for stuff to steal and sell for more junk
3) Two of the three had just been arrested and charged with stealing a TRACK HOE BUCKET << Yep, for scrap steel to sell and buy more heroin
4) It was out in the country, the nice QUIET country. Google his address, look at arial view and see how long you would have waited for a cop to get out there. His drive way alone is 1/4 mile long !!

Heroin addiction will make you do ANYTHING for the next fix, and the concensus down this way is that if these three bird cage liners would have found this gentleman in his chair un-armed and shaking or with a phone in his hand he would be dead now, and his home would have been emptied and his car stolen and that IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. 

Instead, here in this area he is being heralded as a HERO by the local media.

I would have shot the little sh*ts as well.............Some of these responses just kill me! "from behind a keyboard, life is rosy eh?"

Sorry if its un-popular with the politically correct crowd on this fine site but still would have done it. Punks have gone too far these days


Sayin'


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## Sharp Charge

Fishlandr75 said:


> Like I posted earlier... I use to live in a bad neighborhood.. Been broke into several times.. Each time.. I had a loaded gun.. Easily accessible to me... I lnew i could take care of the problem w/o deadly force.You are correct... It may not happen that way next Time... The right to carry/conceal is a wonderful thing in our country ... But it also comes with a greater redponsibilty... Thinking clearly


You hit it on the head right there. 

As for your stance on announcing, retreating etc; you're speaking from your current physical state though and not that as an old man living alone in the country. Had he announced himself the 3 assailants could have very well rushed him, grabbed a weapon etc. (yes we can what if this to death) 

Dealing with multiple people, especially with a 22 rifle isn't the easiest thing either. The weapon could have been taken and used against him. 

Lastly, you keep dipping back to the CCW stuff a little here and there. Just to clarify for others, there is no requirement to have a valid CCW permit to enact the Castle Doctrine in your own home. So long as you are legally allowed to poses a weapon you are covered by this law.


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## Perch

He did, He did use his brain !!! LOL !


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## viper1

You don't seem to even understand what i wrote. But One more piece of advise. Don't be talking people down you dont know because of what you think they mean. Takes years to know some one. You are no special person. Many of use "older guys" have had a chance or a lot of chances. And some has had to kill. Your a young man but didnt say you were stupid. But to talk that way to people today you just never know who they are or what they'll do! In the age of electronics finding some one is easy. and there are people out there that kills for a pair of shoes. Your opinion has been expressed along with others.


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## Perch

One less Heroin addicted thief in Kentucky now anyway................................

( CLARIFICATION- The Heroin Addicted Thief is the mortally wounded robber, not a fellow OGF member ) 











.


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## SConner

If thread is to remain open the personal attacks will stop. It is no longer a civilized debate when people are calling each other names. Agree to disagree and move on.


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## ezbite

i never called anyone any names, I just called out his NON thinking before he posted and i will continue to do so ... but hey youre the man, go ahead and delete this too.....


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## Bucket Mouth

I think the older gentlemen should've poured them a spot of tea and they should've hugged it out. Kumbaya....


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## viper1

Well I too don't think I called any one any names or got out of line. But since I see several of my posts gone I guess the mods didnt agree. But how am i to learn if you don't at least pm me and tell me why you delete them? I know you don't have to. But it would make your jobs easier in the long run if we were aware of why you delete posts or what we did wrong. Because when I pm you i get well I don't remember that time. LOL! Just would like a heads up. You know!
I try to stay inside the lines. But if you dont paint lines ore present lines how does any one know? Just asking.


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## viper1

This is what I read. I say the biggest wrong doing was Walmart charged 500.00 for a 22 caliper rifle. Now that deserves a WOW! And the break in of coarse. Why in the world would any one think that some one entering a house at night would deserve any breaks? Im not calling names. but I think its time we take our country back from the criminals one or a group at a time. No second chances at my house any more.,



Man, 92, shoots, kills alleged robber

CRITTENDEN, Ky. - A suspected robber is dead after breaking in to a Boone County home early Monday morning.
Three men broke into 92-year-old Earl Jones' home in the 15000 block of Violet Road in Verona at about 2:40 a.m. and Jones shot one of the men as he was coming up the stairs of his basement, according to Boone County spokesperson, Tom Scheben. Jones used his .22 caliber rifle to shoot one of the robbers, 24-year-old Lloyd Maxwell of Richmond, in the chest.
Maxwell fled the scene with the two other men allegedly involved in the robbery. The two men took their injured friend to a 2001 Chevrolet Impala on Courtney Road and called police. The pair fabricated a story about the man's injury to try and get Maxwell medical attention, Scheben said.
Maxwell later died from his injuries.
Police identified the other men as 22-year-old Ryan Dalton and 20-year-old Donnie Inabnit-- both of Dry Ridge. Both are charged with second degree burglary and tampering with physical evidence. Dalton and Inabnit were charged in July with receiving stolen property, according to the Kenton County Police Department.
Jones is not facing charges for the shooting. Jones told officials that Monday morning's incident was the third time his home has been robbed.
"Somebody got into the basement, this is a full basement and I was on the bed fixing to go to bed," Jones said. "And I'm very sensitive, I was in the military, you have to have good ears. And I heard something just as I sat down, 'clonk, clonk, clonk,' and I said well somebody is in the basement and he's going to come upstairs. So I heard him when he was coming up the steps, I had the gun so I was sitting there when he opened the door."
Jones told 9 News he got the gun from Walmart for $500. He said this incident should send a message to would-be robbers.
"I've been robbed so much in the past five weeks, I said it's going to have to be a message to the people. The only way you going to stop this is you [going to] have to leave one laying in the grass. That's the only way you're [going to] stop it," Jones said.
Police from Walton, Kenton County and Verona responded to the scene.
Officials have not released any additional information at this time. 



Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region_northern_kentucky/man-shot-in-chest-in-crittenden#ixzz26rRcrcjf


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## boatnut

Fishlandr75 said:


> I guess this thread could go on forever... People have the right to protect themselves when lives are in danger, no argument about it..and they have the right to use deadly force if/ when it's called for. I do think there is a lot to be said about thinking rationally and clearly before making a movevthay would stick with me for ever


I dunno how old you are but would question just how rationally/clearly ANYONE thinks when 3 intruders have broken into the house, especially since it's not the first time. He was within the law and one less dirtbag on the street.


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## Wannabitawerm

monsterKAT11 said:


> wow. just wow.


I'll guess you're amazed that I'm willing to avoid the confrontation without taking a life if possible? It is what it is. I'll take a guess that waiting for someone to enter my home so I can kill them or potentially end up dead is better than firing a warning shot so they turn tail and run. Am I correct? If someone is on my porch and behind a locked door, castle doctrine doesn't apply. I guess im just a big softie. 


Ain't technology great? Now I can be distracted by fishing everywhere I go!


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## celtic11

Wannabitawerm said:


> I'll guess you're amazed that I'm willing to avoid the confrontation without taking a life if possible? It is what it is. I'll take a guess that waiting for someone to enter my home so I can kill them or potentially end up dead is better than firing a warning shot so they turn tail and run. Am I correct? If someone is on my porch and behind a locked door, castle doctrine doesn't apply. I guess im just a big softie.
> 
> 
> Ain't technology great? Now I can be distracted by fishing everywhere I go!


In the article, the first time the guy hears the noises the intruders are already in his basement. I don't see how your argument of someone being on a porch behind a locked door has any place in this discussion. 

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## ezbite

gun threads always get heated and i dont expect that to ever change. why, because both side think their right.

but make no mistake, this man had every right to defend himself in his house... IN HIS HOUSE!!!.. in this case AND IN MY OPINION, this man did exactly what he needed to do to survive. i didnt see where any charges were filed on him so im guessing the county prosecuter feels the same.


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## Perch

Yep It's already old news down this way......................


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## Sharp Charge

Wannabitawerm said:


> I'll guess you're amazed that I'm willing to avoid the confrontation without taking a life if possible? It is what it is. I'll take a guess that waiting for someone to enter my home so I can kill them or potentially end up dead is better than firing a warning shot so they turn tail and run. Am I correct? If someone is on my porch and behind a locked door, castle doctrine doesn't apply. I guess im just a big softie.
> 
> 
> Ain't technology great? Now I can be distracted by fishing everywhere I go!


Do not, under any circumstance fire a warning shot. You will end up in jail for that and risk others by doing so. If you want to issue a verbal challenge then please, by all means do so, but do not fire warning shots. 

No one wants to intentionally take a life. And you're not wrong for challenging an intruder, just know, it's not required and not applicable in all cases. Each and every situation will be a little different, do what's best for you and stay safe.


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## thephildo0916

Sharp Charge said:


> You hit it on the head right there.
> 
> As for your stance on announcing, retreating etc; you're speaking from your current physical state though and not that as an old man living alone in the country. Had he announced himself the 3 assailants could have very well rushed him, grabbed a weapon etc. (yes we can what if this to death)
> 
> Dealing with multiple people, especially with a 22 rifle isn't the easiest thing either. The weapon could have been taken and used against him.
> 
> Lastly, you keep dipping back to the CCW stuff a little here and there. Just to clarify for others, there is no requirement to have a valid CCW permit to enact the Castle Doctrine in your own home. So long as you are legally allowed to poses a weapon you are covered by this law.



Exactly. You are not thinking the same way in a stressful situation as you are sitting here typing on your computer. It's easy to play that game right here right now. Your brain will go into survival mode, and you will do what you feel is necessary to protect yourself. You will not have time to sit and think, man I should have given warnings, or this and that. Hesitation kills, period. I am currently deployed right now and this stuff goes through my mind quite often. The rules of engagement here are VERY strict, however when "stuff" hits the fan, these strict rules do not cross your mind, all you are "thinking" about is surviving. Does that guy walking toward me have a suicide vest, is he working for the "enemy", these are all things we DO NOT know. Different circumstances than in the states, but my point is you do not know, and if you don't act first, then that could be your last thought.


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## Lines Down

After my wife spent several weeks trying to save a mans life who was broken into, robbed for his COIN COLLECTION, and ultimately died from his beating, I'll be the first to tell you; As a society we need to get back to doing what is right and not worry about being tolerant to those who have no interest in doing the same. As a middle class blue collar guy who has worked for everything I have ever owned I'll be damned if someone who doesn't care to be a positive impact on that society will take any of that away. The Castle Doctrine is a step closer to getting back to the way things are meant to be.


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## Huntinbull

Fishlandr75 said:


> read it again....didnt sound like he was too fearful...he waited for the guy to come up the stairs, open the door, then killed him..so he couldnt have called the police? he coulda found 20 other ways to avoid it, im not sayin people dont have the right to protect themselves with deadly force, but sittin there, waiting on someone to show themselves? knowing you have time to get out, call the police, or make your presence known and scare the KID that broke in?? I understand , if someones raping or beating your wife or kid..kill the bastard dead! People just wanna find a reason to sling lead and take another life...its an ignorant way of thinking... The burglar wasnt even armed....yayaya..your gonna say " but the homeowner didnt know that" he had time to think about it..thats murder. I know you think in F'd up.. but breaking into your home and stealing a TV doesnt justify taking a human life... if the guy has a weapon, or comes at you, threatens you..well thats different...protect yourself! I have benn broken into twice in my house a few years back.. i had loaded guns for protection.. it was a couple of 19 year old shits that broke in... i yelled and chased 'em with a bat, they ran off, i called the police, they were caught and went to jail...but at least those KIDS can spend some time in jail, ALIVE, and think about their stupidity... a person cant change for the better if theyre dead


Sometimes dead IS a change for the better. Do the research yourself. See how many offenders have been given jail time, and counseling, and rehabilitation, only to offend again. I would be willing to bet that at least one if not more of the three involved in this incident had records of some kind. Probably other theft charges or similar. Castle law means just that, Your home is your castle. It is your safe place. You have no duty to retreat. I think the law should be worded to say "the victim has a reasonable fear or expectation of serious bodily harm or death." Holding a firearm has a way of mitigating fear.


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## celtic11

Huntinbull said:


> Sometimes dead IS a change for the better. Do the research yourself. See how many offenders have been given jail time, and counseling, and rehabilitation, only to offend again. I would be willing to bet that at least one if not more of the three involved in this incident had records of some kind. Probably other theft charges or similar. Castle law means just that, Your home is your castle. It is your safe place. You have no duty to retreat. I think the law should be worded to say "the victim has a reasonable fear or expectation of serious bodily harm or death." Holding a firearm has a way of mitigating fear.


I can't remember the charges, but the guy who was killed did have a previous record. The way I see it is that we all are responsible to know the laws of our society. Criminals are still required to know the law, and therefor know the castle doctrine and what it means. If you know the castle doctrine and still elect to enter someone else's "castle" then how can I feel bad for you when the consequences come down?

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## viper1

Can't believe there is still people arguing in the defense of a criminal that broke into a house with the idea of hurting or killing some one on their mind. If you want to know how I know this. Burglars go to steal only, don't carry weapons and hit houses that have no one home. If they get caught there is no serious charges. Now the ones who enter the house with occupants have all ready settled on violence. These animals weather their your son,brother or dad need put to death. Because if they get tried a bunch of good people will say they need another chance. Or a good attorney gets them off. Then the biggest part go one to worse crimes till they start taking life's. We were raised if you to the crime you do the time. So if we broke into a home like that I would expect and consider it the home owners option. Were does it say they deserve a second shot at my family? Nope still after all this I see no reason for any of this. You want a fair chance don't break into my home or any one else's. Because if your found here tonight, they'll find you here in the morning. No Lie just fact and feel as you like. It's not like I went for them, they chose to be shot at breaking in.


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## FISNFOOL

Fishlandr75 said:


> I'm guessing your saying "wow" because you think a guy is a wuss if he doesn't ignorantly pull the trigger and take a life.. Those guys who would just grab a gun and shoot... Shouldn't have the right to own a gun.. Theres a lot to be said about* staying calm in a situation and thinking clearly*


I use the quote as an example. Lots of similar ideas posted in different words.

Tell that to a civilian that has never been in a life death seconds to respond situation. That is like the instructions in a rattle snake byte kit. You are in the woods and miles from any help. And the first thing in the kit says "Stay Calm" Even the guy in the shooting article that started this thread, made a quick decision as to whether he would hide or defend.

Lots of really good comments on both sides of the issue. Here are a few comments based on my life experience. I advocate nothing for anyone. Your life choices have to self motivated, and something you can live with after the fact.

Four things.

1. First we are talking the real world and not TV. People do not always go down when shot. GOGGLE The FBI Murders. You will be amazed at how many times someone can be shot and still kill you.

2. I am a retired Officer. Officers deal with suspects differently because of backup on the way, safety equipment, training to contain a suspect in an area and waiting to clear it until backup arrives, etc. And because we usually arrive after the fact. We take great homicide reports.

3. If my son broke into an occupied home to steal a TV on a dare, it would not have been a first offense or he would not have the guts to do it. If he was killed, he would have deserved it. And that is similar to a quote from an Officer that lost his son to a home invasion. Even a first offender can freak if caught by the homeowner and do grave bodily harm.

4. Now that I am older, If I sustain a blow that breaks a bone or causes me to hit the floor and break a bone I could suffer a life ending blood clot. There is a popular home assault where the idea is to punch a person in the face so hard that bones are broken and the shock prevents identification of the assailant. You do not wait for someone to start beating you or raping your wife. You defend first. You do not call out a warning because that could allow the perpetrator to fire a shot in the direction of your voice. You illuminate the target with a Tac light on strobe and take it out. And if you research defensive shooting statistics, you will see that there are many cases of people being killed by an attacker who was shot but took time for blood loss to disable them. Even Officers killed by people lunging at them with a knife because the attacker had enough inertia in motion to finish the attack after being shot. The real world can be a vicious evil place. I have even see cases where the victims complied with all the attackers wanted and they were still killed. Then when asked why the did it you get, "Just to watch them die."

We all have to live with the choices we make in life. Your conscious will decide what you plan to do in a event, but you may fine that survival kicks in too. We all really never know until that split second crisis time arrives.


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## tm1669

You need to know what the "CASTLE DOCTRAINE" means legally...
It is now under law ASSUMED that you acted as you were in fear for your or your family lives. Its up to the prosecutors to prove that you WEREN'T in fear for your life. You dont have to prove a darn thing or make any statements. 
You are also under no legal requirement to retreat at all. 
That is the legal side of things. 
Morally its between you and your God.


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## tm1669

A drawback of the "Castle Doctraine" is that someone that would be considered under the weapon's under diasability law (felon with a gun) cannot be prosecuted for protecting himself with a firearm in his Castle. 
I dont remember the details but if anyones interested I'll look it up.


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## viper1

Simply put you have the right to defend your self in your own home or car. You have the right at any time to defend your self when approached with a weapon that could inflict bodily harm or injury's. Could be a man with a gun , a rock ,a knife or even just a stick. You can legally shoot some one to protect another if you feel i is cause of bodily injury or death. Could be a rapist, robber or any thing. And you do not have to prove your innocence at all! They have to prove your guilt. Those are your rights.
Now my moral obligations is no one's business. Also I cant be prosecution for them. You can't change them. And in all realty no one knows till it happens. What I do is between my God! I do know I like killing nothing really. But i kill for food and animals that causes me problems. I don't enjoy it but i don't loose sleep either. And to me there is no difference in Gods creatures. If my house gets entered i will think you have chosen force of some kind. So you started the conflict and ill shoot to kill no matter what. If I approach some one getting raped or robbed i'll shoot to kill with no remorse. These are things i've all ready thought about and im all right with. And these are things each person has to on their own. Other peoples ideals have no bearing and can't change it. I respect the law. And don't care if you a wuss as you say. I have always know there are people who can defend their own and others who choose not to. Not my problem or even right of me to tell them different or they tell me. When I married my wife and had kids I promised to protect her and my family. Not call a police and hope they get there in time. Or try to read a criminals mind. I'm no fool and if a guy breaks into a home he is the fool on a bet or other wise. I dont care if its your son. If hes in my home for any reason then its your fault more then mine. I raised my kids with values and moral consciousness. They wouldn't harm an innocent person or animal. And if your child breaks into my home you better see were you went wrong and not blame me for doing right. And what the law has given permission for.


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## Huntinbull

TM1669,
It was my understanding that if you were a felon or forbidden from owning a firearm, there could not even be a firearm in the residence. I know a "gentleman" that was charged because he was staying with family and there was a firearm on the premises. He was a felon. Was not e ven his permanent residence, just staying at a family members home for a while.

I could be wrong and have been known to be wrong an MANY ocassions.


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## BigV

Huntinbull said:


> TM1669,
> It was my understanding that if you were a felon or forbidden from owning a firearm, there could not even be a firearm in the residence. I know a "gentleman" that was charged because he was staying with family and there was a firearm on the premises. He was a felon. Was not e ven his permanent residence, just staying at a family members home for a while.
> 
> I could be wrong and have been known to be wrong an MANY ocassions.


I believe your understanding of the "weapons under disability" law is correct.


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## Huntinbull

Thanks. I thought so.


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## KaGee

Shoot first?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/2...d-intruder-learns-it-his-son/?test=latestnews


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## bobk

Not the same as what the topic is about. The guy shot the kid outside according to the story. Remember the topic is about Castle doctrine.


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## Sharp Charge

KaGee said:


> Shoot first?
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/2...d-intruder-learns-it-his-son/?test=latestnews


From a link within your link: http://www.ctnow.com/news/hc-new-fairfield-shooting-0928-20120927,0,2717959.story

...When he got outside, police said, he found a man dressed in black with a black ski mask covering his face in front of his sister's house. The man was armed with a knife.

A confrontation occurred, state police said. The man dressed in black approached Jeffrey Giuliano in a "threatening manner" and Jeffrey Giuliano feared he was about to be assaulted with the knife, police said. Jeffrey Giuliano then opened fire and struck the assailant multiple times, including in the head...


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## Huntinbull

Sharp Charge said:


> From a link within your link: http://www.ctnow.com/news/hc-new-fairfield-shooting-0928-20120927,0,2717959.story
> 
> ...When he got outside, police said, he found a man dressed in black with a black ski mask covering his face in front of his sister's house. The man was armed with a knife.
> 
> A confrontation occurred, state police said. The man dressed in black approached Jeffrey Giuliano in a "threatening manner" and Jeffrey Giuliano feared he was about to be assaulted with the knife, police said. Jeffrey Giuliano then opened fire and struck the assailant multiple times, including in the head...


May not be understanding the whole story but....

That incident may fall under the "putting yourself in danger" theory. If Giuliano would have stayed in the house Castle Doctrine would have covered it. He went outside instead of waiting for the police.

If you run outside to stop a criminal from hurting or stealing your vehicle then they turn on you, you put yourself in that situation knowing they were breaking the law already. Too gray an area for me, but my choice would be to call the police and get out my auto policy to read over it.


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## Sharp Charge

Huntinbull said:


> May not be understanding the whole story but....
> 
> That incident may fall under the "putting yourself in danger" theory. If Giuliano would have stayed in the house Castle Doctrine would have covered it. He went outside instead of waiting for the police.
> 
> If you run outside to stop a criminal from hurting or stealing your vehicle then they turn on you, you put yourself in that situation knowing they were breaking the law already. Too gray an area for me, but my choice would be to call the police and get out my auto policy to read over it.


Yeah, there's plenty missing still when you read the whole story. I'm not sure what CT's laws are too in this scenario. The neighbor was apparently the sister of the shooter so that surely muddies up the water also.


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## tm1669

Your right about weapon under disability. A person under disability cant even be in a house with firearms but something with the Castle Doctraine makes it unprosecutable. We had a case in Cleveland where a convicted drug dealer shot and killed another dealer that had invaded his apartment and was trying to kill him. Self defense. Prosecutors wouldnt charge for Under Disability because of the Castle Doctraine. Again, I cant remember the details but my curiosity is peeked and Im going to find out exactly why.


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## Sharp Charge

I don't remember hearing that one. I'm scratching my head too....


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