# Anti paylakers



## Lundy

You guys need to lighten up around here.

It is pretty well known that most do not like many paylakes because of how they obtain their fish, me included.

However when someone asks a question about how to experience family time with his daughter and gets slammed for his choice in doing so you come across as really sad people.

You aren't going to accomplish anything positive to effect the changes you desire by attacking some guy taking his daughter fishing at a paylake. He didn't ask what you thought about paylakes.

You offered nothing constructive, rather just stated that YOU would never fish a paylake. I didn't see where he invited you along on the trip with his daughter. 

Get over yourselves please.


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## throbak

Your Right but for some of on here its frustrating


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## fredg53

Learn how to fish period 

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## Bon3s

Agreed.

I'm not pro paylake nor anti paylake.

I've tried them. But mostly would rather fish a lake. Do I like how they take fish instead of raising their own? No.

However trying to get yourself heard by bein aggressive. Is like trying to convince a woman to marry you by beating her. Not gonna work.

Act like an adult. I fire people everyday because they think they can approach a problem with anger and get results. They do get results, but not the ones they wanted.

Don't be like those Jesus people who try and convince you by throwing it down your throat.

It's annoying and no one takes you serious, or anything you have to say for that matter.


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## whodeynati

I'm going to open a paylake for Bass only. I'm going to put 50,000 pounds in it a year. Let's see how long it stays open. Let's see how fast you guys bash me.

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## Bad Bub

And not all pay lakes "take" fish from other places. I fish one near my house that the owner's father built himself, stocked it once and it's been self sustaining ever since. I hate to pay someone to be able to fish it, but I couldn't haul my boat to Tappan for all he charges...

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## big events

Bad Bub said:


> And not all pay lakes "take" fish from other places. I fish one near my house that the owner's father built himself, stocked it once and it's been self sustaining ever since. I hate to pay someone to be able to fish it, but I couldn't haul my boat to Tappan for all he charges...
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Ohub Campfire mobile app


youre right, its like anything else, one individual ruins the image for everyone....people that get mad and think that their "trophy fish spots" are being fished out, should move and find a new spot.


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## SeanStone

Lundy.....

All this has effectively done is made a thread to continue the argument. Your not going to get guys who are passionate about catfishing to sit by and listen to paylake talk. Its only going to start problems.....and you can hardly blame them. However some people take it so far as to put down people before they have been given the chance to learn/ or teach others why paylaking is devastating local fisheries. This forum....ogf....has lost a bunch of good catfish guys because of this... and id like to see that stop.

My suggestion is make a sticky and lock it at the top of the catfish board so no one can comment. Then make a paylake subforum so they.....and us sport fishing guys...... can talk in peace. 

You...ogf..... made a subforum for bowfishing so the carp fisherman can talk in peace....and it seemed to help a little.

My 02.

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## Flathead76

whodeynati said:


> I'm going to open a paylake for Bass only. I'm going to put 50,000 pounds in it a year. Let's see how long it stays open. Let's see how fast you guys bash me.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Who wants to pay to catch trash fish. Lol


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## Flathead76

It would be fair to make a pay lake section on here. Then this could be all avoided.


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## KaGee

Flathead76 said:


> It would be fair to make a pay lake section on here. Then this could be all avoided.


How would that be fair?
The same people that trash the threads would trash the forum. 

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## Snakecharmer

Lundy said:


> You guys need to lighten up around here.
> 
> It is pretty well known that most do not like many paylakes because of how they obtain their fish, me included.
> 
> However when someone asks a question about how to experience family time with his daughter and gets slammed for his choice in doing so you come across as really sad people.
> 
> You aren't going to accomplish anything positive to effect the changes you desire by attacking some guy taking his daughter fishing at a paylake. He didn't ask what you thought about paylakes.
> 
> You offered nothing constructive, rather just stated that YOU would never fish a paylake. I didn't see where he invited you along on the trip with his daughter.
> 
> Get over yourselves please.


Great post! And a big NO to the Anti-Paylake Forum.


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## Cajunsaugeye

Not gonna get into it again as that was in no way my intention in the first place, but I do want to clarify a couple things.First,as my original post stated,it was my first ever visit to a pay lake.I,too,would much rather fish all our great river systems,lakes and streams.My go to areas for big cats were still up (river) and I felt too dangerous for my 7yr old.Also between working 3 jobs,trying to maintain my home/yard and helping the wife shuttle daughter around to practices,camps,slumber parties,play dates,etc.,my fishing time is EXTREMELY limited.Especially w/my daughter,who loves it.I agree w/your points about illegally stocking some of them.And I in no way condone that or any breaking of laws,period.I was just on limited time and it was my best option to try to get a decent cat for her to wrestle and see.All the people there were extremely friendly,pushed no extra money stuff on me,gave me any info I asked for(depths,etc.) and told me to just take the family out there and have a good time.I don't have some burning desire to go back,but am not saying it won't happen.If it does,I may/may not post results on here.Bottom line is it'll be my choice.People can type on their computer all they want.Won't affect me in the least.I'm good w/my decisions morals and quite old enough to decide where I fish.Thank you all for the support I received and best of luck on the water to you all.

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## big events

Flathead76 said:


> Who wants to pay to catch trash fish. Lol


we already do pay to catch fish...and way more than any pay lake fees


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## catfishnut

big events said:


> we already do pay to catch fish...and way more than any pay lake fees


+1 on that post!


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## monsterKAT11

big events said:


> we already do pay to catch fish...and way more than any pay lake fees


false. 

The big issue I see is your asking people to support their fisheries being destroyed. Most guys are here are not aggressive at all in their responses, just trying to educate. This is a forum, a forum is meant for discussion, and information. Why should we not discuss and educate people? 

cajunsaugeye, i completely understand your point and this is more of a general comment. There have been MANY people on this site who joined and were fairly naive about this topic and have since seen the light so to speak. People like the "jerks" who "attack" people on here about it are the reason for that.


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## SeanStone

Snakecharmer said:


> Great post! And a big NO to the Anti-Paylake Forum.


I guess it could be seen that way...but I meant make a subforum for paylake catfishing and keep it seperate from the catfishing forum now. I took some time censoring myself and trying to be helpful on a sensitive topic......so id like to know why its a BIG no on sperate forums? Not trying to argue....I just wanna hear your side. 

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## SeanStone

SeanStone said:


> Lundy.....
> 
> All this has effectively done is made a thread to continue the argument. Your not going to get guys who are passionate about catfishing to sit by and listen to paylake talk. Its only going to start problems.....and you can hardly blame them. However some people take it so far as to put down people before they have been given the chance to learn/ or teach others why paylaking is devastating local fisheries. This forum....ogf....has lost a bunch of good catfish guys because of this... and id like to see that stop.
> 
> My suggestion is make a sticky and lock it at the top of the catfish board so no one can comment. Then make a paylake subforum so they.....and us sport fishing guys...... can talk in peace.
> 
> You...ogf..... made a subforum for bowfishing so the carp fisherman can talk in peace....and it seemed to help a little.
> 
> My 02.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app



Snakecharmer I assume this is what you were referencing right? 
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## Cajunsaugeye

Not to start anything,but just curious here.Could you please publish/paste ANY study or info showing that ANY fishery has been destroyed or even hurt by someone taking a few fish for a pay lake.I mean sure there are a few less" big ones"out there.But I see all the yrs there were no limits on catfish and the older photos of guys w/20-30 20lb. plus fish hung op on a board or stringer and I see a lot of our today trophies hanging there.I also see more people fishing now than ever so it's also inevitable that more small fish(and big) are being kept now.I also see littering more than ever,causing private landowners to not allow fishing anymore.The" public" spots are getting hammered more and more,causing less good fishing in those areas.I can go on,but most people don't want to hear facts,they have the one idea plastered in their mind and jump on the bandwagon.I'm just saying to think about other possibilities and use some brainpower thinking of ALL possibilities and scenarios before having an opinion one way or the other.There are a multitude of factors as to why it's harder to catch" trophy"fish for some people in some areas.And lastly,I DO NOT fish pay lakes regularly.First time ever the other evening.I have NO personal agenda in any of this.I just am a grown man and choose to visit ALL angles before drawing a conclusion.

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## big events

monsterKAT11 said:


> false.
> 
> The big issue I see is your asking people to support their fisheries being destroyed. Most guys are here are not aggressive at all in their responses, just trying to educate. This is a forum, a forum is meant for discussion, and information. Why should we not discuss and educate people?
> 
> cajunsaugeye, i completely understand your point and this is more of a general comment. There have been MANY people on this site who joined and were fairly naive about this topic and have since seen the light so to speak. People like the "jerks" who "attack" people on here about it are the reason for that.


in what world is your gear less expensive than a pay lake fee? Guarantee I have paid way more to fish than any pay lake. 

Also, be concerned with the pay lakes that are paying for fish illegally and trot lining and ravaging the river system for their stock. There are a lot of pay lakes and clubs that do it legit...The bad ones are the only ones in the light.


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## monsterKAT11

big events said:


> in what world is your gear less expensive than a pay lake fee? Guarantee I have paid way more to fish than any pay lake.
> 
> Also, be concerned with the pay lakes that are paying for fish illegally and trot lining and ravaging the river system for their stock. There are a lot of pay lakes and clubs that do it legit...The bad ones are the only ones in the light.


i didn't know paylakes supplied gear and bait too! 


also, i realize there may be some that do it legally, there is still alot around here (most in my opinion) that do it illegally.


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## big events

> i didn't know paylakes supplied gear and bait too!


i think you are missing the point here....what i mean is, fishing in our lakes and rivers also costs money, and probably more than any fee you would pay to a pay lake.


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## Flathead76

KaGee said:


> How would that be fair?
> The same people that trash the threads would trash the forum.
> 
> Sent from my EVO 3D via Ohub Campfire


They made a bowfishing forum to separate bowfisherman from rod and reel fisherman. Did that not eliminate alot of head aches for the mods on here? If a rod and reel carp fisherman goes into the bowfishing section the mods can put that member in check. Isnt this why the bowfishing section was created to separate the two parties? Both styles of carp fishing are legal but completely different. Thats why the DNR has a separate section in the state records. On the other hand the state does not have a records section for pay lakes. They do not even give out fish ohio pins for pay lake catches.


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## KaGee

Flathead76 said:


> They made a bowfishing forum to separate bowfisherman from rod and reel fisherman. Did that not eliminate alot of head aches for the mods on here? If a rod and reel carp fisherman goes into the bowfishing section the mods can put that member in check. Isnt this why the bowfishing section was created to separate the two parties? Both styles of carp fishing are legal but completely different. Thats why the DNR has a separate section in the state records. On the other hand the state does not have a records section for pay lakes. They do not even give out fish ohio pins for pay lake catches.


Forums were never added to separate and divide members.
Forums were made because the topic was of interest to a segment of membership. Pay Lakes are not worthy of their own forum at this time.


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## monsterKAT11

big events said:


> i think you are missing the point here....what i mean is, fishing in our lakes and rivers also costs money, and probably more than any fee you would pay to a pay lake.


I knew what you were trying to say just ruffling your feathers lol


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## SeanStone

KaGee said:


> Forums were never added to separate and divide members.
> Forums were made because the topic was of interest to a segment of membership. Pay Lakes are not worthy of their own forum at this time.


I did send lundy a pm about making a separate forum. He will probably feel the same way you do.

As long as it is given some thought im fine with that answer. Personally I like the idea, but I now see both sides. It would give them the freedom to discuss their tactics....reports...etx freely without fear of persecution. And I wont have to read them.

Couldnt help myself.....lol. seriously though atleast some thought was given. Thanks.

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## big events

monsterKAT11 said:


> I knew what you were trying to say just ruffling your feathers lol


ha... works for me


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## big events

maybe a pro's and con's sticky about paylakes? that way any interested party can see that list and make an educated decision.


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## monsterKAT11

to be constructive, i agree with big events. Maybe a paylake awareness sticky at the top of the page will help educate people about SOME of the paylakes, and help eliminate people getting jumped on when they are mentioned.


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## City fisher

Is it illegal to take fish from a lake and sell it to a pay lake? Serious question that I dont know the answer too. another question, if it is and all you guys know that it is happeneing on a prety consistent basis, Im going from how every one in the thread is saying they know it is happening, then why is ODNR or a ranger or game warden not told about this and given the proof that all of you must have have that this is occuring as frequently as you say it is? Should be pretty easy for them to catch these people if it is happening as much as guys are saying it is. I really see no difference in some one taking a fish, trophy or not, and selling it to a paylake versus keeping it and eating it or keeping it and having it mounted. The fish is still taken from the water that it was caught in, making it not available to catch again in that body of water. If you dont like pay lakes, then dont go. But dont bash people that do. Why are so many people these days concerned about what other people are doing all of the time???


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## Flathead76

City fisher said:


> Is it illegal to take fish from a lake and sell it to a pay lake? Serious question that I dont know the answer too. another question, if it is and all you guys know that it is happeneing on a prety consistent basis, Im going from how every one in the thread is saying they know it is happening, then why is ODNR or a ranger or game warden not told about this and given the proof that all of you must have have that this is occuring as frequently as you say it is? Should be pretty easy for them to catch these people if it is happening as much as guys are saying it is. I really see no difference in some one taking a fish, trophy or not, and selling it to a paylake versus keeping it and eating it or keeping it and having it mounted. The fish is still taken from the water that it was caught in, making it not available to catch again in that body of water. If you dont like pay lakes, then dont go. But dont bash people that do. Why are so many people these days concerned about what other people are doing all of the time???


It is illegal to sell fish taken from fishing in ohio. It is also illegal to move fish from one body of water to another body of water.


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## big events

City fisher said:


> Is it illegal to take fish from a lake and sell it to a pay lake? Serious question that I dont know the answer too. another question, if it is and all you guys know that it is happeneing on a prety consistent basis, Im going from how every one in the thread is saying they know it is happening, then why is ODNR or a ranger or game warden not told about this and given the proof that all of you must have have that this is occuring as frequently as you say it is? Should be pretty easy for them to catch these people if it is happening as much as guys are saying it is. I really see no difference in some one taking a fish, trophy or not, and selling it to a paylake versus keeping it and eating it or keeping it and having it mounted. The fish is still taken from the water that it was caught in, making it not available to catch again in that body of water. If you dont like pay lakes, then dont go. But dont bash people that do. Why are so many people these days concerned about what other people are doing all of the time???


From ODNR: It is unlawful to buy or sell any fish taken by sport fishing, including angling and trotlinefishing, taken from any water area in the state.

http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/fishing_general.aspx#_top

There just isnt enough man power to JUST patrol for these guys...its all secretive....they can take the limit in fish legally, but its really hard to catch someone driving inside a pay lake garage and making the transaction.


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## SeanStone

City fisher said:


> Is it illegal to take fish from a lake and sell it to a pay lake? Serious question that I dont know the answer too. another question, if it is and all you guys know that it is happeneing on a prety consistent basis, Im going from how every one in the thread is saying they know it is happening, then why is ODNR or a ranger or game warden not told about this and given the proof that all of you must have have that this is occuring as frequently as you say it is? Should be pretty easy for them to catch these people if it is happening as much as guys are saying it is. I really see no difference in some one taking a fish, trophy or not, and selling it to a paylake versus keeping it and eating it or keeping it and having it mounted. The fish is still taken from the water that it was caught in, making it not available to catch again in that body of water. If you dont like pay lakes, then dont go. But dont bash people that do. Why are so many people these days concerned about what other people are doing all of the time???


I have called odnr several times....the tip a poacher hotline. I call them because of guys overharvesting cats...to have more than 1 catfish over 35 inches in ohio is illegal. I have called them because of untagged lumblines and trotlines. Nothing ever happens. The only thing I have gained from calling them is the knowledge that I can legally cut an untagged limbline or trotline. And I DO SO EVERY TIME I SEE ONE. 

I had one buddy turn in a guy selling to paylakes once...... and his whole operation got shut down. They took 2 trucks. ...dozens of livestock tanks, his gear, etc. Thats the only time I have heard of anything happening. 

These guys arent keeping one or two fish a night....they are taking them by the boat load....literally as much as their boat can hold. I saw one boat near brush creek island...ohio river, meldahl pool... pull a hoop net and load their boat up with over 1000lbs of fish easy. 

As for it being illegal to sell fish to a paylake.....im not 100% sure if thats illegal. It is however illegal to transport fish from ine body of water to another.....so i dont know how they get around that. I do know it happens all the time

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## big events

> It is also illegal to move fish from one body of water to another body of water.





> It is however illegal to transport fish from ine body of water to another


sorry to hijack but this is not true. The only thing you cannot do is introduce a new species to a body of water. (i.e. a salmon into the olentangy)


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## big events

the only thing here is that pay lakes can buy from commercial fisherman, who either dont have limits, or have a different higher set of limits.


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## Fish-N-Fool

I'm not against quality paylakes that supply panfish, farm raised channel cats, etc. 
Nearly every paylake in my neck of the woods has far more to do with gambling and partying than fishing. Their signs aren't even about fishing....the one nearest to my house says something to the effect right now of "catch a fish and spin the wheel for your chance at $500 and other prizes". They all adverstise weekend gambling pools and prizes....very little to do with fishing and no place to take your children when the sun goes down.

Paylakes in theory aren't bad at all....IMO the problem is there are too many that aren't properly run.

As far as ODNR catching these guys forget about it...I gave that fight up after numerous conversations with ODNR. I provided them with license plate #'s and descriptions of multiple guys selling cats from the GMR. The second guy from ODNR that called me back knew every one of these guys....he knew the guy I was hot after had a pitbull, brought his young son along most of the time and what stretches of teh GMR he worked. It is ALMOST impossible for them to make a bust - they must ctach them in the act of selling to a paylake...which ain't going to happen. I've accepted OH really isn't interested in the catfish market legitimate and/or illegal...it is too low of a priority. And OH can do nothing to help the OH River....KY holds the cards and they ain't about to change any commercial fishing regs so hoop nets are here to stay.


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## SeanStone

big events said:


> sorry to hijack but this is not true. The only thing you cannot do is introduce a new species to a body of water. (i.e. a salmon into the olentangy)




http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/fishing_general.aspx

It is illegal to transport and introduce an aquatic species from one body of water to another...something like that.

Does it mean transport is illegal only if its an introduction then?

Unless blues and flathead catfish are native to small ponds, they arent, id consider it an introduction.....even if they are already there....which would be llegal.


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## big events

SeanStone said:


> http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/fishing_general.aspx
> 
> It is illegal to transport and introduce an aquatic species from one body of water to another...something like that.
> 
> Does it mean transport is illegal only if its an introduction then?
> 
> Unless blues and flathead catfish are native to small ponds, they arent, id consider it an introduction.....even if they are already there....which would be llegal.


I am pretty sure small ponds dont count as they are private and isolated.....but that reg. means you cannot introduce a species (had an email with ODNR, and can re-produce it if you want proof). For example, you CAN take a bluegill out of a pond, or the olentangy and transport it to Hoover.


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## SeanStone

big events said:


> I am pretty sure small ponds dont count as they are private and isolated.....but that reg. means you cannot introduce a species (had an email with ODNR, and can re-produce it if you want proof). For example, you CAN take a bluegill out of a pond, or the olentangy and transport it to Hoover.


I dont need proof I believe you. I know paylakes have to be legal up front in some sence or else they wouldnt exsist. 

Anyone know how the house bill 403 is going? I think thats the one going on in kentucky over commercial fishing. I knew they wanted to do a study....just wondered if anyone knew anything.

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## jonnythfisherteen2

but the arguement was started another way. why blame the anti paylakers?


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## Hook N Book

Holy Smoly, I've been in the game for 50+ years and admitedly have been to pay lake's, albeit years ago.
I just wonder if the one's that do the bashing haven't at some point in their lives did the same...!


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## throbak

403 is dead. more to come this fall. Channel cats can not be moved without a test for vns There is no CF in Ohio Inland waters and very little is allowed on Lake Erie. Perch Only. The Ohio Dnr Is VERY serious about illegal sales to Pay lakes, Operation Mudcat Proved That You guys have a winner in Scott Hale


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## City fisher

Thanks for the info guys. I picked up some valuable information that I didnt know.


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## whodeynati

I really think the ODNR is tired of this issue. Hopefully come November Kentucky will either be the same way or have way more restrictions on what a CF can keep. These people that think taking a few fish from the river need to go down around Cincinnati and watch them. Or better yet just try to go catch some fish there. 
November can't get here soon enough. 

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## Flathead76

Hook N Book said:


> Holy Smoly, I've been in the game for 50+ years and admitedly have been to pay lake's, albeit years ago.
> I just wonder if the one's that do the bashing haven't at some point in their lives did the same...!


I refuse to fish a pay lake and never will. Just answering your question.


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## SeanStone

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYEWBRkbqA&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

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## Hook N Book

Flathead76 said:


> I refuse to fish a pay lake and never will. Just answer your question.


Basher, Huh...!


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## Flathead76

If thats your cup of tea go for it. Congrats on your 5,000th post!


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## Cajunsaugeye

What am I missing about this you tube post? He shows 3-4 bigger fish from "protected" water(which were in his livewell????).Then he shows a nice flattie and says he just caught 13 in 2hrs!!! in" unprotected"water.Well ANY catfisherman(except the bandwagoners) would have to say 13 fish of that quality isn't too shabby for a night or more of fishing,let alone 2hrs.So just asking what point this proves?also I could easily show some photos of smaller fish and tell you how bad my spots are becoming!!!!

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## SeanStone

Cajunsaugeye said:


> What am I missing about this you tube post? He shows 3-4 bigger fish from "protected" water(which were in his livewell????).Then he shows a nice flattie and says he just caught 13 in 2hrs!!! in" unprotected"water.Well ANY catfisherman(except the bandwagoners) would have to say 13 fish of that quality isn't too shabby for a night or more of fishing,let alone 2hrs.So just asking what point this proves?also I could easily show some photos of smaller fish and tell you how bad my spots are becoming!!!!
> 
> Sent from my VS870 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Dude everything I post doesn't have to be an argument with you. EVERY POST YOU HAVE MADE HAS BEEN TO STIR THE POT. No one is attacking you. Chill out. Im just trying to share info with others on the issue at hand. However if you are debating the devastating effect of commercial fishing on the ohio river you have lost your mind. Fish markland or meldahl pool and tell me what you think......then go upstream to greenup or rc byrd...the protected pool... and then compare. Id place money on which pools hold better fish.

My youtube video was in response to whodeynati's comments on commercial fisherman and the posts on house bill 403. Steve Douglas is an accredited catfish expert. Look his videos up and you will learn a bunch. 

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## Flathead76

SeanStone said:


> Dude everything I post doesn't have to be an argument with you. EVERY POST YOU HAVE MADE HAS BEEN TO STIR THE POT. No one is attacking you. Chill out. Im just trying to share info with others on the issue at hand. However if you are debating the devastating effect of commercial fishing on the ohio river you have lost your mind. Fish markland or meldahl pool and tell me what you think......then go upstream to greenup or rc byrd...the protected pool... and then compare. Id place money on which pools hold better fish.
> 
> My youtube video was in response to whodeynati's comments on commercial fisherman and the posts on house bill 403. Steve Douglas is an accredited catfish expert. Look his videos up and you will learn a bunch.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Totally agree.


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## Cajunsaugeye

I'm asking simple questions.You're coming at me.I'm posting my views about the topic.plain and simple.I'm directing nothing at anyone personally.So how bout answer the questions instead of again attacking me.

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## SeanStone

Ok



Cajunsaugeye said:


> What am I missing about this you tube post?
> 
> So just asking what point this proves?
> Sent from my VS870 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I beleive I answered them in my post. But here they are again

The youtube video was in response to comercial fisherman and their impacts on fisheries. The video highlights Steve Douglas....an accredited catfish expert and tournament pro....and his experience on his home waters that are unprotected versus waters in west virginia that are protected. His point is that he has noted a decline in fish size over the last five years....due to commercial fishing. 

Now I read your comment and I underatand anyone could hold a small fish and make claims. I cannot dispute that. The fact of the matter is that commercial fishing has devastated local fisheries, and you cannot dispute that. Thats the point. 

I shouldnt have to spell it out. You knew what the point of the video was because you watched it and wanted to argue about his claims. 



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## Flathead76

Thought the livewell in the guys boat was pretty cool. Obviously he is a pretty good fisherman on the ohio river. Why would anyone go through that much effort to fish and make a video for you tube if they did not believe there was a big difference in protected vs non protected fishing areas?


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## SeanStone

Flathead76 said:


> Thought the livewell in the guys boat was pretty cool. Obviously he is a pretty good fisherman on the ohio river. Why would anyone go through that much effort to fish and make a video for you tube if they did not believe there was a big difference in protected vs non protected fishing areas?


Steve Douglas is a tournament catfisherman. He has to keep 100 plus pounds of fish alive to bring to the scales. He actually used to make livewells before he got popular....he made something called the aqualung. It was an oxygen difussed air bubbler. ..or something like that. Instead of blowing out straight used air his sytem infused oxygen into the livewell better and kept fish alive a lot longer. A simple search of aqualung should lead to a few videos.

He knows his stuff. Its not just him though...its everyone you talk to. I fish the meldahl pool on the ohio river all the time and I can tell you from personal experience that fishing is slow. I was out there 20 nights last August and september and I didnt see one boat after dark...other than a barge. There's no pressure because the fishery is shot. I saw more commercial fisherman than I did rod and reel guys. We had one group of guys blow thier motor upstream of us and ask for a tow. They were in a 20 foot aluminum jon boat and we were in a 14 foot modified vee jon boat with a 9.9. It wasnt gonna happen. We talked for a while and they told us they were fishing.....I saw the nets and brought it up and they mumbled around a bit and then told us they run hoop nets. They run them every few weeks and even they said fish were getting scarce. ..... well duh.





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## Cajunsaugeye

This is my last response on this topic as it is getting stupid.First There is NO evidence that pay lakes have declined fishing ANYWHERE.PERIOD! As I've stated many times I don't fish them.I have nothing personal in this.Are you saying commercial fishing or are you talking pay lakes which is what this is all aboutbecause they are two different things.Next this is a discussionPeople are allowed different views and stances.So you can fight your side and come directly at me and that's fine.But if I simply ask questions, ask for evidence,and try to state my point,I'm trying to "stir the pot".Until you post EVIDENCE to what you're defending,you have NOTHING you need to be commenting on.Again this is how PAYLAKES ARE DESTROYING EVERYTHING.I will not comment any more but I do look forward to reading your response and your" evidence" and/or facts.And by that I don't mean what a person or a couple people said.

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## whodeynati

Cajunsaugeye said:


> There is NO evidence that pay lakes have declined fishing ANYWHERE.PERIOD!
> 
> Sent from my VS870 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Yet!! After this study is done by the KDFW come November hopefully you will have your evidence you are seeking. 


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## triton175

I've never been to a pay lake, don't even know where there is one, but over the years I've seen several threads like this on OGF. I'm wondering if someone could provide some basic info on pay lakes so I can understand this better.
I'm assuming that these are privately owned lakes and that people pay the owner to let them fish there so:
Do you pay by the fish, by the hour or day, or for a particular spot?
How much do they cost (approx)?
Are these places usually part of a campground or park?
Do they stock fish that are also available locally, or are they more exotic like, say, Peacock bass?

Thanks


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## SeanStone

Cajunsaugeye said:


> This is my last response on this topic as it is getting stupid.First There is NO evidence that pay lakes have declined fishing ANYWHERE.PERIOD! As I've stated many times I don't fish them.I have nothing personal in this.Are you saying commercial fishing or are you talking pay lakes which is what this is all aboutbecause they are two different things.Next this is a discussionPeople are allowed different views and stances.So you can fight your side and come directly at me and that's fine.But if I simply ask questions, ask for evidence,and try to state my point,I'm trying to "stir the pot".Until you post EVIDENCE to what you're defending,you have NOTHING you need to be commenting on.Again this is how PAYLAKES ARE DESTROYING EVERYTHING.I will not comment any more but I do look forward to reading your response and your" evidence" and/or facts.And by that I don't mean what a person or a couple people said.
> 
> Sent from my VS870 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app


Comercial fisherman feed the paylakes their fish legally. By law a paylake cannot purchase fish from random people. So the problems are one and the same. The commercial fisherman here are fueled by paylakes. There was an in-fisherman article about a month ago that said ohio had the most paylakes out of all 50 states. Thats insane. How can one river support that?

What evidence do you need. If I have a cookie jar with 10 cookies in it and joe blow takes 8....im left with 2. Its far more complicated but im sure you get the point.

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## ShaneMC

Another pointless post


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## City fisher

whodeynati said:


> Yet!! After this study is done by the KDFW come November hopefully you will have your evidence you are seeking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


What study are they doing? Are the going to check local lakes and reservoirs and then go to all the local pay lakes and check all of those as well ? I am interested in how and where this study is going to be done. And what about all they guys that catch trophy fish and keep them? Is there a difference between people doing that and people taking them to pay lakes? Either way the fish is taken and it is not going to be caught again in the body of water in which it was taken. I don't see a whole bunch of people complaining about the guys that keep the fish to eat or get mounted. And I asked in an earlier post and received no answer so I will ask again. Why is it that every one else is worried about what everyone else is doing all of the time? I don't understand that mentality that is excepted as normal these days. Seems like people want others to keep their nose out of their business while at the same time they are all up in other people's business. 

Pay lake or not, every one stay safe out there and good luck out on the water.


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## whodeynati

Kentucky is doing a study on the trophy catfish population. Since they are the state that allows commercial fishing. The study should be finished in November.

A rod and reel angler can keep only 1 fish over 34 inches bluecat and flathead. And I believe 1 channel cat over 28 inches maybe? There is a big difference between 1 or 2 trophy fish being taken out. As opposed to thousands of pounds taken out in 1 trip with the commercial fisherman. Who make their trips daily to the river. When a regular guy fishing is lucky to go twice a week. I hope that helps out a little bit.

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## throbak

Steve Douglas Is Doing every thing he can to get Reasonable Regulation In his state Take his word on there being a problem There are NO regulation on the Ohio in Indiana and KY where do you think the 500 or so Pay lakes in the tri state are getting there fish ?? EVERY wild life resource left unregulated Has disappeared Penn. WEST Va.,Ohio and even Ill . have regulation or NO CF And For a reason the pay lakes Need the fish ( DEMAND) The Cf and the unregulated Ohio River are the Supply These throphy fish that are demanded are 50 Plus years old a 10 Lb blue is 10 to 12 years old Those under that can be replace Rather Quickly the big ones cant See the Problem Get rid of the Demand and the Supply will take care of itself Hope this helps you under stand These are WILD fish Nor farm raised that the PL demand


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## Snakecharmer

SeanStone said:


> I guess it could be seen that way...but I meant make a subforum for paylake catfishing and keep it seperate from the catfishing forum now. I took some time censoring myself and trying to be helpful on a sensitive topic......so id like to know why its a BIG no on sperate forums? Not trying to argue....I just wanna hear your side.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Ohub Campfire mobile app


I'd just be afraid that someone looking for info on fishing paylakes would get crucified by the anti's. Similar if we had a beer forum and a group of teatotalers kept butting in on the evils of alcohol.

I don't have any skin in the game really as I don't target catfish and don't fish catfish paylakes. I have to admit 50 years ago as a kid , I did pay to panfish in at least two private lakes - Sunny Lake and Novelty Lake. Sunny in now owned by the city of Aurora and Novelty Lake is still private but no longer is open to the public.


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## Shortdrift

Though I'm not a dedicated catfisherman, I ask if those that are have ever considered gathering signatures and then pursue the ODNR with a written request to provide protection of the Ohio River catfish within the State Of Ohio. Do that along with an avalanche of letters to your State Representative asking for his help. This worked for the Lake Erie fisherman with respect to getting better enforcement of perch netting violations as well as improved means of policing the catch. We now are experiencing excellent perch fishing along with improved fish size.
Complain on this site about the Pay Lake operators removal of the quality Ohio fish isn't going to get you anywhere. Ban together and take some tangible action.


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## cheezemm2

I am biased. I hate paylakes that harvest their fish from public waterways. Other paylakes are fine, read on if you can live with that, otherwise please ignore as I am passionate about this. I will not post again or comment again on this publically (at least in this thread), you have my word, but feel free to pm me if you want to have an intelligent conversation.

Flatheads are not a put and take fishery, there is nothing to replace them near as quick as channel cat stockings. They are not as popular as a game fish becauase they do not take readily available baits as easily (for average fisherman with nightcrawlers, chicken liver and shrimp). Therefore, they are not state stocked (if they are it is few and far between). There is a finite number of fish. Time and time again fish have been overfished for various reasons of supply/demand. This shouldn't be rocket science...the ocean has given us plenty of examples of where this exact same type of behavior has led to extreme enforcement, closed fishing areas, and seasonal closures. Unfortunately, this is the natural cycle, deplete until everyone goes , then knee jerk reaction, then fish populations will recover.

Taking fish from natural waters and then re-selling is not ethical...it's a poor reflection on our state's treatment of natural resources and what we think of our environment. Having paylakes that support this type of behavior in Ohio is an insult to every dollar I spend on a fishing license.

On the flip side, properly run paylakes that bring up their own fish, don't look like something in the back of a junkyard with a gumball machine full of money that says, "Pot $145 for 50lber" is much more representative of a small scale put and take fishery that is sustained as a business by a business. It is not sustained by fish that are caught for "free". I don't know many businesses that can put Cost of Goods Sold on an income statement and put 0. 

You remember that first giant (insert x fish here) you caught as a kid and how big of a smile it brought to your face? Here's a simple demonstration. Take it home, put it in a small baby pool, make each or your friends get to "catch" it for $1, after it dies, throw it in your yard, when it starts to stink, throw it in the woods or your nearest garbage can. You've effectively done what poorly run paylakes do to our environment in much larger numbers. If you believe some of the paylakes, 40,000 lbs or more worth of fish a year. Do the math, if it's a 25lb fish average going out, you're taking 1800 fish out of the ecosystem for one paylake. How many paylakes are in Ohio? It's not sustainable and a foolish waste. I don't need a marine biologist to give me the 450 variables on spawning habitats, phosphorous run-off, algae blooms, invasive species, water temperatures etc. to tell me that taking a lot of mature and breeding capable fish out of a small section (20 river miles) is a bad thing.

The fight for catfish has been a long time coming and don't think for a second that there aren't educated folks out there who will push this through and get it enforced. Baby steps are being taken and it won't be long before I don't have to waste my breathe (keystrokes in this case) on this stupid, irresponsible and selfish topic. *Thank you ODNR for starting to listen!*


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## Fisherman 3234

Look, for everyone who doesn't believe there is a big problem come down and fish the river yourself......


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## Trophy Hunter

Cajunsaugeye, there are a multitude of reasons Shovelhead and Blue Catfish enthusiasts bear a hard-line, anti-paylake stance. There is plenty of scientific and historical evidence to support this stance. Over the last ten years or so, the trophy-catfish, paylake trend has gotten way out of control. If things do not change, the ability to catch 20lb + shovels and blues will be destroyed. 

We recognize the easiest solution is to not pay the pay lake. Essentially, by paylake, we mean trophy-catfish paylake such as Catfisherman's Paradise, Lake Remington, or what have you. Places like Lake Isabella are in a completely different class of paylake and deserve to be patronized. Places like Lake Isabella provide a valuable service to children and elderly people who need easily accessible areas to fish. Just know, if you pay to fish at a trophy-catfish lake, you are contributing to the most irresponsible and damaging business practice to these catfish species, especially the shovelhead. 

I did a three month long research study at the University of Cincinnati on this very subject. Just to give you an idea of my breadth of knowledge, I will post a few paragraphs of something called a research proposal. It's basically asking my professor permission to spend university resources on a specific topic -- in this case, what I titled, _The Trophy Catfish Initiative in Southern Ohio_. If anyone has any questions or would like to see the research in it's entirety, please chime in!!! 

Here's just the first part of the research proposal:

The Trophy Catfish Initiative in Southern Ohio

Introduction

The Ohio River and its tributaries contain a misallocated resource: the blue and the flathead catfish. The Army Corps of Engineers refer to commercial fishing within the Ohio River basin as, an economic engine for the region (Engineers, 2012); however, catfish generate a relatively low portion of that commercial fishing revenue. The blue and flathead catfish better serve the economy through recreational fishing revenue. As an example, Virginia utilizes the blue catfish to support a multimillion dollar recreational fishing industry on the lower James River. The same opportunity exists for the Ohio River. The blue and the flathead catfish, developed into a trophy class fishery, will create a stable, self-sustaining resource, prompting an inter-state reconciliation (Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio and West Virginia) on catfishing regulations, commercial and recreational.

This trophy catfish initiative starts by gauging public opinion. Biologist frequently use angler opinions when considering changes to existing regulations (Arterburn, 2002). An angler opinion survey to (1) see if the Ohio sporting community would support a trophy catfish initiative, and (2) to see if a specific body of water, as opposed to state wide regulation, would be the most appropriate is needed. In terms of the commercial fishing industry, a representative sample group is not available. Therefore, justification on revising commercial regulations using the Great Lakes and Mississippi River Interbasin Study (GLMRIS) will be used. I believe (1) since a smaller percentage of profit derives from catfish, a suitable formulation and implementation of trophy class regulation exists. The commercial fisherman could offset the loss by targeting other species. It is a loss with a plausible means of recovery. And, (2) developing a trophy class fishery would surpass the revenue generated from the entire commercial fishing industry. 

According to the GLMRIS report, 17% of total annual harvest, in the Ohio River basin, derives from catfish. An even smaller percentage of that 17% comprise blue and flathead catfish 35 inches and over. Indiana has already implemented a 35 inches and over, two per day, blue or flathead regulation on their commercial fishery, with discussion of one per day regulation underway. Kentucky has no commercial restrictions. Ohio commercial fishery regulations have been difficult to find. It will be necessary to review the regulations from each state to determine suitable regulations. In terms of the recreational fishery, Ohio enacted a one fish per day over 35 inches for the blue and flathead, with West Virginia and Indiana following suit. Kentucky has no recreational restrictions.

My poster will focus on public opinion within the sporting community around the Ohio River, specifically southwestern and southeastern Ohio and northern Kentucky. Also, the economic impact of developing a trophy class fishery on the commercial fishing industry will be addressed by using a recent economic assessment performed by the Army Corps of Engineers. A literature review of standing research done in the Mississippi River basin regarding trophy fisheries development will be used to support my initiative and show knowledge gaps within the Ohio River basin. Regulations in this area are based on research done with outdated equipment and methods. Ultimately, my research will foster inter-state regulatory collaboration in an ongoing effort to produce a trophy class fishery for blue and flathead catfish on the Ohio River. The majority of Ohio fisheries management monies and efforts go toward Lake Erie and the walleye, along with smaller scale efforts for the muskellunge, saugeye, largemouth bass and hybrid striped bass. These activities are stocking and research intensive to ensure continued productivity. However, a trophy catfishery only requires enforcement and regulation. 

Background

The James River project started with regulation. Now, they have moved toward planning and analysis. Since the program has been such a success, the impact of a growing blue catfish population on other species is underway. In the Mississippi River basin, studies using the latest fisheries management technologies  Global Information Systems (GIS) and radio-telemetry  are being used to gather information for the analysis, planning, consultation and decision-making process to establish a trophy fishery in their region. Sociological studies on the sporting community are also being considered in terms of attitude and demographics. The University of Missouri and Kansas have uncovered misconceptions from both sides, government agencies and the communities they serve.

History

In 1970 Lake Erie was so polluted, a person could walk across the surface supported by sludge. The Cuyahoga River, a tributary of Lake Erie, actually caught on fire. It is now known as the burning river. Since then, conservation has transformed Lake Erie into a tourist destination, providing millions annually to the surrounding economy. The largest attraction is the trophy class walleye and steelhead trout fishery. The Ohio River has also made considerable strides in conservation since the 70s. The Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission (ORSANCO), in collaboration with surrounding states, has been improving its water quality. The Ohio River is now in a suitable condition to be a tourist destination and trophy fishery similar to Lake Erie and the James River.

Catfish 2000: Proceedings of the International Ictalurid Symposium now provide directives in modern research practices and management. The University Of Missouri and Kansas emerged on the forefront of population dynamics research along with angler survey studies. They have found that flathead catfish, in particular, spend their life in the same general area; therefore, spatial relationship to regulation is shown to be effective in growing larger fish. They also found significant public opinion data in support of trophy catfisheries:

Anglers reported that fun was the most important reason to fish but also mentioned that size of fish caught enhanced the success of a fishing trip. Most catfish anglers (71%) take at least one trip annually to pursue trophy catfish, a majority (66%) suggested that management direct more attention toward catfish fisheries and they supported regulations that are more stringent. Biologists responded that a single-species approach to management for self-sustaining populations could produce more trophy catfish (Arterburn, 2002).

Modern technology and research practices have been the key. Methods used in Ohio, such as electrofishing and creel surveys, are no longer applicable. As technology allows for an increased harvest, technology and research become necessary to ensure continued productivity of the resource. 

In 2008, the blue catfish was reduced from an Ohio endangered species to a threatened species. It is now considered a species of concern. Also in 2008, recreational fishing regulation was enacted for blue and flathead catfish. In recent years, world and state records have been broken. Management efforts are getting results. The world angling record flathead catfish was caught May 14, 1998, from Elk City Reservoir, Kansas, and weighed 123 lb 9 oz  (Paige L. M., 1991). The Ohio state record blue catfish, 96 pounds, was caught in Clermont County in 2011 on the Ohio River. The fish are here. More stringent regulations are needed to move to the next level.

If made it this far, thank you for reading. During the time I spent on this, I uncovered a lot of peer reviewed stuff in support of shutting down the trophy-catfish paylake. I will be happy to share these articles with anyone. 

The bottom line:

It is just stupid to make a species a commodity, paying enough to incentivize its capture beyond what its population can handle. There is some grey area where the bluecat is concerned, but for the shovelhead, this is absolutely the case. Shovelhead have been shown to spend their entire lifecycle within a one mile area and take up to and over nine years to reach sexual maturity. Harvesting only the largest specimens in any area will deplete their population beyond its ability to replenish itself. 

Please, I will be happy to face any debate on this topic and back it up.


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## Cajunsaugeye

Sorry,but gotta jump back in for this one since I'm singled out again, by name.All I can say is" What?".Again,NO EVIDENCE supporting ANYTHING.Again,one person's view.I HAVE NEVER SAID ANY OF YOU ARE WRONG FOR THINKING YOUR WAY.I'm saying you're being close minded for having nothing to support what any of you are saying.I'm also saying there are a multitude of other reasons as to why the numbers MAY be down,since no one REALLY knows.As I stated before.Just some fact/evidence to what you all seem to know to be the only explianation.That's all I ask.One comparable survey from 30yrs ago and one now to compare numbers.Or any other pertinent real numbers,not speculation,piece of data.I really don't think one can be posted or even obtained.Yet pay Lakers be damned, cause we can't catch big fish!And remember,I'm NOT a pay laker.Just blown away at peoples willingness to argue,attack etc. with nothing to back it up.And just to think,all this crap started cause I wanted my 7yr old daughter to see a big fish and my river was still too high to safely take her there.

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## whodeynati

Awesome post TrophyHunter

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## Trophy Hunter

Cajunsaugeye said:


> Sorry,but gotta jump back in for this one since I'm singled out again, by name. all this crap started cause I wanted my 7yr old daughter to see a big fish and my river was still too high to safely take her there.


No sir. Not from me anyway. Just wanted to help you understand. Asking a big catfish enthusiast to hear paylake justification is like asking an art museum curator to quit and go to work in a comic book store. 

There's plenty of evidence / data for discussion. Not sure if you want to take the time given your response. I don't intend to attack anyone. 

I think discourse on any issue is the key to resolution. You just happened to raise the issue, Cajunsaugeye. No beef, just debate. This is about big catfish, nothing less, nothing more. Hope you understand. :good:


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## Lundy

Trophy Hunter said:


> I think discourse on any issue is the key to resolution. *You just happened to raise the issue*, Cajunsaugeye. No beef, just debate. This is about big catfish, nothing less, nothing more. Hope you understand. :good:


And therein lies the problem that many are missing.

NO, he did not raise the issue. he asked about taking his daughter fishing. The rest of you raised the issue and took to the next level.

Direct you passion towards those that can effect change. The recent actions do nothing positive.

Thanks


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