# Is southern Ohio biologically lacking?



## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

It just seems that we have the least species here. If you go south of here, you will find warmer water species like alligator gar, and trout in the mountains; north of here, you have colder water species like pike and perch and such, as well as trout. Do we have anything unique to be proud of here?
I guess it's just disappointing because I just got back from steelhead fishing in Cleveland and I want more 


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## Bostonwhaler10 (Apr 30, 2012)

Farther north easy west and south you get more fish and bigger fish than here.


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## zuelkek (Jun 8, 2011)

I posted awhile back about the fish in the LMR. Here's what I've caught:

bluegill, green sunfish, longear sunfish, rock bass, smallmouth bass, spotted bass, "meanmouth" bass hybrid, white bass, striped bass, freshwater drum, channel catfish, sauger, walleye, mooneye, white crappie, black crappie, carp, smallmouth buffalo, brook trout (19 species)

I also know the river has these, which I've not yet caught myself:

muskie, flathead catfish, "wiper" hybrid, "saugeye" hybrid, creek chub, longnose gar, redhorse sucker, largemouth bass, skipjack

I think there must be blue catfish, and I've heard rumors of rainbows and even salmon, and probably some other stuff I haven't thought of. That makes 28 species already, which is pretty respectable. So biologically it's really diverse. And I know from a general thing, the Ohio Valley is in an ecosystem overlap, so we get species from the north and from the south. (That's one reason the allergies here are so bad.) You named a few fish from north and south, but we have a huge # of species comparitavely, I think.

I'd love to hook up with a steelhead or a salmon in my backyard, but I'm not complaining. The smallies here are great--few fish fight harder and jump higher, pound for pound. And I love not knowing what's coming out of the river next. It does seem to be less than glamorous, but as a Midwesterner, that's just fine with me. But, then there is a big-time glamour fish on the list above which shall remain unnamed, with a good fishery hereabouts. Can't talk about it, though, it just isn't done...

By the way, I was fly fishing in the mountains in Oregon once and kept catching rainbows all day long. They were great, and it was fun, and they were great fish and jumped and all that, and easy to catch. But every single fish I hooked was a rainbow, all day, rainbows, rainbows, rainbows. I got bored. Not really bored, but I wanted to see something else. Not a problem hereabouts. 

There, you triggered a lecture. I can't help it.


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## oldstinkyguy (Mar 28, 2010)

kingofamberley said:


> It just seems that we have the least species here.


Somewhere around ninety species of fish in the Great and Little Miami. It's not uncommon in early summer to catch seven or eight different species of fish in an afternoon of wading. Your never going to do that trout fishing in the mountains or flying in to some canadian lake.

I think the Ohio, Great and Little Miami Rivers offer some of the best catfishing you will find anywhere. They might not be as pretty as a steelhead but there are some cats around here that are truely gigantic. I know a cat close to one hundred pounds was caught in the Ohio around Cincinnati in 2009. In southern Ohio I've caught a 30lb cat, a 37lb carp, a 6.5 lb largemouth, a 5lb smallmouth, a 4lb spotted bass, a five foot long paddlefish and a 25 lb buffalo. And I've never caught a big muskie or a trophy hybrid but they are around here too. I dont think the fishing is worse than anywhere else just different.


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

zuelkek said:


> But, then there is a big-time glamour fish on the list above which shall remain unnamed, with a good fishery hereabouts. Can't talk about it, though, it just isn't done...


That is some mysterious, cryptic stuff there sir. And what are you talking about with brook trout in the LMR? Can I have some of what you are smoking? 


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

I know we have good fishing, it just seems to the north and to the south they have all of our species, plus more. This is an interesting part of the world.


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## E_Lin (Jun 30, 2011)

Whether we are lacking or not we must deal with what we have. No matter what me might find elsewhere. Sure, I find myself wondering what I might catch if I travel a little farther north or south. Maybe landing a pike like Quetico Mike in the GMR up there. I can't do that here around Cincinnati. Or going after musky in the central parts of the state or some lakes in Kentucky. What we got is what we got. I see all kinds of posts on this forum where fishermen talk and post pics of the bass, cats, carps and other fish we catch. Some folks don't seem to be happy unless they catch a certain species of fish. Me personally, I am happy just to be catching something at all.

For years, fishing for me consisted of either picking out a spot on shore of a county lake, or renting a boat at a Hamilton Co park. From there it would be hanging a small hook under a bobber with a waxworm and waiting until a bluegill or crappie got hungry and desperate to bite it. It was decent and inexpensive time to spend out with the family, and little more. But a few years ago, something changed. Call it a mid-life crisis or whatever. I just wasn't satisfied with "little fish" anymore.

I started fishing at paylakes, targeting bigger catfish. I caught a few good size fish, but it was hit or miss, and I still felt like I was missing something. If I was catching decent fish, what could be wrong?

In the middle of last year, I found the OGF website, and joined. I thought it might help me catch more fish either on county lakes or at paylakes. That was not to be the case. At first I was frustrated, because it seemed to me people here were not as helpful as I had hoped. What was with the animosity towards paylakes? And why didn't the people here want to help me? Why did I keep coming here?

I didn't give up, though. I am not some troll, here to find someone else's prime fishing holes. Who am I? I am someone who wants to excel at whatever it is he does. And by God, I want to excel at fishing. So late last year, I started fishing with lures again. In Oct I caught my first fish on a lure in 25 years. It was either a sauger or a saugeye. I couldn't tell you which, then.

This year, I have caught a greater variety of species than I ever have in my life before. Do I owe it all to OGF? Of course not. But in a way, I do. One thing that has been pounded into me since I first showed up was that I should just get out and fish, and learn what I could. So that is what I did. I also purchased fishing dvd's, and watched the Outdoor Channel whenever a fishing show came on. I picked up a few tips, and listened to some things I was told by OGF members (*Salmonid, Dandrews, QueticoMike and others*).

The end result this year has been the best year of fishing for me and my family. The funny thing is, we have probably done less "fishing" this year than any other. "Fishing" as we have always known it, that is. This year, I have taken what I have learned and taught my wife and son, and as a family we have caught a great variety of different fish. Before, my wife would go because it was something to do. Before, my son would go because he had no choice. Now, my wife wants to go fishing. Now, my son wants to go fishing. And they both aren't afraid of a fish that might break their line, they are hoping they can land the fish that will _*threaten*_ to break their line.

The bottom line for me, is, I am thankful for what we have in the waters around us. Maybe we don't have alligator gars, or muskellunge, or monster white sturgeon, but we have in this area is pretty good. Before this year I had caught fish like bluegill, pumpkinseed, crappie, bullhead and channel cats. This year, I have added Smallmouth Bass, Largemouth Bass, White Bass, Sauger (or Saugeye, whichever, because now I *know* I have caught both), Smallmouth Buffalo and Spotted Gar. And to that I add that my wife has caught Shovelhead cats! And I still don't have one! How fair is that? Of course I caught some at paylakes, but I no longer count those. I have started back at zero. So I still have some work to do... But I do have some spots lined up. When the water level becomes doable, I will be there, I hope...

All in all, my point is, species diversity or not, we have some decent waters around here to fish in. Yeah, it's not Texas or Florida or other spots we see on TV shows, but we can catch our fair share of fish around here. Unless our name is QueticoMike and we catch someone else's fair share along with our own, but hey, some of us are just better or luckier than others. One day, I hope I can be one of *those* people. Until then, I am just going to catch whatever is going to be biting, assuming I can land it. Fish on, brothers...


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## bgrapala (Nov 1, 2008)

Its been awhile since I posted in here, got away from fishing for a bit. Going through this thread, I had to put my .02 in. Being in the military has its advantages to fishing. I have traveled the country and fished in several different states over the last few years and I will say, there is not a fishery anywhere I've been that is quite like what we have here. When I first got to Dayton in 2007 I hated fishing here. Hate is really an understatement. I started researching more about fishing in rivers amd what to look for when targeting fish. That, along with OGF, and some help from a few local members (SConner, CatBassCrap,TeamPlaker....theres more but you get the gist) I have come to absolutely love fishing in the Miami Valley and look forward to every chance I get to fish here.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

bgrapala said:


> Its been awhile since I posted in here, got away from fishing for a bit. Going through this thread, I had to put my .02 in. Being in the military has its advantages to fishing. I have traveled the country and fished in several different states over the last few years and I will say, there is not a fishery anywhere I've been that is quite like what we have here. When I first got to Dayton in 2007 I hated fishing here. Hate is really an understatement. I started researching more about fishing in rivers amd what to look for when targeting fish. That, along with OGF, and some help from a few local members (SConner, CatBassCrap,TeamPlaker....theres more but you get the gist) I have come to absolutely love fishing in the Miami Valley and look forward to every chance I get to fish here.


Hey Bud, welcome back!

I agree, I've fished all over and I still think we have the best fishing of all the other States I've been in, with the varied reservoirs, lakes, streams, and rivers close by....the exception would be if you like to saltwater fish! 
Maybe the Largemouth don't get as big as in the South or West, but the abundance of species is a blessing to any fisherman.
Just in Springfield I have CJ, Clark Lake, Old Reid, Snyder Park, Hosterman Lake, Buck Creek, 2 paylakes, 2 streams, Various Ponds (Lg and Sm) and the Mad River. What fisherman could ask for more??


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## Dandrews (Oct 10, 2010)

I moved to Tennessee in the 80&#8217;s and I was amazed at the fishing there, but the guys I hung out with down there were far better fishermen than the guys I fished with up here at the time. I was also shocked at the price of a resident fishing license down there; I noticed that the TWRA put a lot of time and effort into the fishery, after that I didn&#8217;t mind paying so much. After I moved back to Ohio I was amazed at how much the GMR had improved, seriously it&#8217;s cleaner now than it has ever been in my lifetime

I did some salmon fishing in Michigan last year and it was a big let down for me too after I got back. I started targeting flatheads with crankbaits after that. Hybrids/stripers are fun too but nice flatheads are right in my backyard. I had made a couple observations about flatheads before I went to Michigan and I kind of worked on that after I got back. 
There are pike and musky in our area, not a lot but they&#8217;re here. I caught a pike a couple years ago; I might go after another within the next month or so.
Alligator gar were in the Ohio River in this area at one time but I don&#8217;t think that there was a targetable population, they disappeared after the dams were built. A couple different species of sturgeon were also in the Ohio and both Miami Rivers but they too disappeared when the dams were built. Indiana has been re-introducing shovelnose sturgeon to a lot of their rivers over the past few years. 
I saw an American eel caught at the old dam in Hamilton years ago (before there was a new dam) and I caught one in Four Mile Creek a year or two later. 

When you go on vacation, you might spend a lot more time on the water than you do at home. I think that might skew your point of view.

Here&#8217;s a couple links related to the subject:

http://oh.water.usgs.gov/reports/fishspecies5.pdf

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2006/1385/


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

Dandrews understands me haha. I don't want it to sound like I'm complaining, or that I am ungrateful. Of the species we do have around here, we have an abundance. And I will always enjoy catching a bass. But I hunger to catch more species.


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## lakeslouie (Jan 11, 2006)

kingofamberley said:


> That is some mysterious, cryptic stuff there sir. And what are you talking about with brook trout in the LMR? Can I have some of what you are smoking?
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Was thinkin the same thing, lol. I don't get down that way as much as I used to, but I have fished the river many times, usually from Tanners and White Oak, and a hidden little gem, not talked about too much, that being Brookville Lake. Awesome fishery.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

kingofamberley said:


> That is some mysterious, cryptic stuff there sir. And what are you talking about with brook trout in the LMR? Can I have some of what you are smoking?
> 
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


I think I know what fish he is talking about and if I am correct yes no one that fishes for them will talk about it on an internet forum. I thought this thread was going to be about the locals in hamilton sorry Dandrews. Speaking of how close to home did you catch that pike. I have heard rumors of downtown dayton but haven't heard of any lower than that. I think no matter where you live there is always going to be something you wish you had the oppurtunity to fish for. But I would say within a two hour drive of cincinnati you have some pretty good options. I do wish global warming would kick in though so that maybe Ohio would be oceanfront one day. Could you imagine surf fishing plus all the species we already have.


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## zuelkek (Jun 8, 2011)

My little brother caught a brook trout on the LMR a long time ago. He was about 8 or so, using an earthworm and a bobber. I took it off the hook for him, so I know what it was. Someone told me that there are privately stocked tributaries on the LMR that can support them, so it seems this one washed down. I found out later when wading through the spot that there is a good-sized spring right there under the surface, which is how the fish survived, I'm sure. It's definitely a fluke though.


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## Dandrews (Oct 10, 2010)

imalt said:


> Speaking of how close to home did you catch that pike.


not anywhere near Hamilton


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

zuelkek said:


> My little brother caught a brook trout on the LMR a long time ago. He was about 8 or so, using an earthworm and a bobber. I took it off the hook for him, so I know what it was. Someone told me that there are privately stocked tributaries on the LMR that can support them, so it seems this one washed down. I found out later when wading through the spot that there is a good-sized spring right there under the surface, which is how the fish survived, I'm sure. It's definitely a fluke though.


That is insane. If that is indeed how it was possible, then that is a one-in-a-million right there.


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## Dandrews (Oct 10, 2010)

imalt said:


> I thought this thread was going to be about the locals in hamilton sorry Dandrews.


LOL, Im not that sensitive
Growing up in Hamilton you learn to get a thick skin about that stuffKnocking Hamilton is a sport for a lot of people, gotta learn to take it and dish it back when you can. I did a lot of traveling with my job previous to my current one; there are a lot of towns just like Hamilton out there.any urban area of Michigan for instance.


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## bgrapala (Nov 1, 2008)

Intimidator said:


> Hey Bud, welcome back!



Hey Brent! I was up at CJ the other day with my kids seeing if I could get into some slabs. I still have that map you drew so I was using that as kind of a reference for a few spots. Only managed one bluegill though.


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## imalt (Apr 17, 2008)

Dandrews said:


> LOL, Im not that sensitive
> Growing up in Hamilton you learn to get a thick skin about that stuffKnocking Hamilton is a sport for a lot of people, gotta learn to take it and dish it back when you can. I did a lot of traveling with my job previous to my current one; there are a lot of towns just like Hamilton out there.any urban area of Michigan for instance.


Michigan people are a whole different story. Then you have west virginia where the family tree goes straight up with no brances.


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## Dandrews (Oct 10, 2010)

imalt said:


> I think I know what fish he is talking about and if I am correct yes no one that fishes for them will talk about it on an internet forum.


Speaking of mysterious cryptic stuff, I still hear rumors about an unmentionable fish in a secret location that has been discussed through coded messages on this forum. A nod&#8217;s as good as a wink to a blind bat .
I don&#8217;t think I believe the rumors though.

Actually, I&#8217;m not sure if we&#8217;re all indirectly talking about the same unmentionable fish.


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## Dandrews (Oct 10, 2010)

montagc said:


> I really think you are comparing a rather small geographic area with some much larger ones, i.e. Southern Ohio vs "south of here." I think we are lucky to have what we have locally, and also have such varied fishing opportunities within a reasonable drive.
> 
> You also won't find a huge variety or amount of catchable fish in clear mountain streams due to the low fertility of those types of streams. They just can't support the same biomass that a river like the LMR or WW can.


I think that hits the nail on the head.


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## zuelkek (Jun 8, 2011)

Alright, I'm coming clean. It's a population of these:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...British-fisherman-grapples-giant-piranha.html

In the Little Miami. Don't even go near the water without armor-plated Kevlar waders.

It's such a dark secret because the thriving tourist industry centered on the river would be threatened if news of the deaths and maiming due to these monsters ever got out. This is serious.


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## Legend killer (Apr 20, 2011)

Being a muskie only fisherman I am thrilled with the muskie stocking at east fork. It will be still a few years until it will be a decent catch rate ratio for an expierenced muskie fisherman but the muskie will thrive with the abundance of gizzard shad in the lake. Since moving to batavia, ef has the largest abundance of gizzard shad I have ever seen.


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## Intimidator (Nov 25, 2008)

bgrapala said:


> Hey Brent! I was up at CJ the other day with my kids seeing if I could get into some slabs. I still have that map you drew so I was using that as kind of a reference for a few spots. Only managed one bluegill though.


Hey, they only come close to shore at dusk and through-out the night...in the day time they are still on the drop-offs near the feeding flats or in deeper vertical structure...after CJ turns over (SOON), the shad will move shallow and so will the predators!


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## bigdino81 (Mar 26, 2009)

i have caught trout in the lmr its not as impossible as you think 
they are stocked in a mason lake which has an overflow dam many times the trout are washed over and they make it to the river quite easily
quit, move out of this area if you dont like the fishing.


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## GarrettMyers (May 16, 2011)

Lol, you knew someone would say it


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

bigdino81 said:


> i have caught trout in the lmr its not as impossible as you think
> they are stocked in a mason lake which has an overflow dam many times the trout are washed over and they make it to the river quite easily
> quit, move out of this area if you dont like the fishing.


Chill brother, I think it's a valid question. When i bring up my observation that we appear to have fewer species here than to the north or south, everyone gets pretty defensive. Again, I am not ungrateful. Just curious. People have been bringing up some good points.


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## co-angler (Jan 3, 2010)

you get all kinds king......comes with the territory.
Good observation.
What was your biggest steely? I'm going to Michigan in November to hunt those beasts.
I'm not moving just taking a few days


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

co-angler said:


> you get all kinds king......comes with the territory.
> Good observation.
> What was your biggest steely? I'm going to Michigan in November to hunt those beasts.
> I'm not moving just taking a few days


Oh man... The only one I managed to land flopped out of my hands back in to the water before I could measure/weigh/photograph/eat it. It had to be at least 5 lbs. Such a heart break! So yeah yeah, no proof, but now I am hooked. It was weird to catch such a big fish in such a small creek. That fish as well as my only other hit came on white/silver spinners. Sadly, I only had the one morning to fish, as I was there on other business. I look forward to doing it again.


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## Lowell H Turner (Feb 22, 2011)

Much of biological diversity has to do with the "lay of the land", ie the actual geological features left by the natural or otherwise forces that shaped it, and part is due to the variety of different types of cover (weedbeds, blow downs, submerged manmade attractors) in it. Being in a temperate zone (4 distinct seasons) inhibits heavy yr round feeding we find further South, but that said we still have a rather plentiful variety of different speices to pursue. Am not saying that every body of water is managed to absolute maximum capability, but there are many that seem to produce very nice fish consistantly. The overall water quality IS still improving even if slowly in places; a legacy of over 150yrs of the "pour it into the nearest stream, river or lake" method of waste disposal. THANKFULLY those days are all but gone now. Compared to many states, we have it GOOD (in my opinion)...


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## kingofamberley (Jul 11, 2012)

Good point about the land. When I was in cleveland, I noticed that their rivers are much rockier than ours and have hard shale beds, as opposed to our soft clay and silt. It rained on my way up there, and 2 days later the water was crystal clear. Here, it is so easy for a blow out to muddy up the water for a decent amount of time. I know there are some species that can't spawn in silty areas, so that probably has something to do with it.


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## zuelkek (Jun 8, 2011)

The LMR is a great river, especially for fishermen. It's not terribly polluted in terms of all the crap the lower GMR and Scioto suffer from, being below cities, but it's not close to pristine either. Other rivers are a lot worse. Right now it's in this phase where farm runoff silt and nutrients are constantly flowing into it, but it has still reached a fairly stable and relatively healthy equilibrium. Around here we have a limestone base and the aquatic food chain begins with dropped leaves washing into the water. A biologist at one of the local colleges told me that. But all that silt is being carried in from farms and it's something that has a negative impact overall on the river quality. Pre-agriculture days, the water in the Little Miami was a lot clearer than it ever is now. There's a famous painting in the Cincinnati Art Museum called "Blue Hole, Little Miami River" done in the 1800s. The deep pools in the LMR were bright blue! You never see that now. I think it's runoff fertilizers that ratchet up the nutrients in the river, giving it that green color. I don't know if that helps the river support more biomass that it would otherwise, but for sure farms in the watershed affect the river in a number of ways.


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## Dizzy (Oct 1, 2012)

I didn't post this when it happened, but a few weeks ago a group was doing a fish count/survey on the LMR. It was neat seeing them shock the fish and get them on board for the count. I talked to one of the researchers for a few minutes but I forgot to ask who was funding the survey. Their website lists a lot of projects going on in the area so people are collecting data. The fish were not biting after they went through the area, gee I wonder why? 

Midwest Biodiversity Inst.


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