One group of hunters that don't wear orange are already hunting after daylight.
And they are shooting arrows at 300 fps, not bullets at 3100 fps. It isn't just about shooting the deer, it's about what is behind your intended target. In low light conditions, you can't tell what's behind your target and that is a primary factor in gun safety.
Archery safety.... is taken care of because of the low relative speeds and inability of the arrow to travel very far.
After reading through this, I'm not a fan of Buckeye Firearms. If everyone associated to that group is like you, then I'm glad I'm not a part of it.
I never totally understood the only till sunset rule. As more of a waterfowler than deer hunter it's the same way. 1/2 hr. before sunrise to sunset. Really has nothing to do with safety in duck hunting. Shooting in the air with shot that only goes so far @ avg. 1400fps. And average shot for me is usually 30yrds and under. No danger there. Not like I don't know how to run a boat in the dark, not like we don't get out there at unGodly hours in the a.m. So why is it this way?
I always thought it must have something to do with duck anialation. Shooting them 1/2 hr before is about the easiest time to fool a duck. Throw out some quacks and shoot the shadows. Right at legal time your hoping for greenheads. If we could hunt a 1/2 hr after way more ducks would be killed. Ducks just pour into a marsh even before sunset. After sunset it would just be unfair.
Maybe it's the same for deer hunting. How many more deer would be killed on a daily basis with that half hour after. As for me when I deer hunt public land during gun, you won't catch me in the woods before SUNRISE.
This past season I hit the woods on the extra shotgun weekend on a public tract at 8am, had a deer at 10am.
The people that maintain proper focus and presence of mind during reloading have practiced it thousands of times.
Most hunters have never actually practiced shooting at fast moving targets. Three attempts is more than enough. Of course, if the animal is not running, (which is out of the ordinary after one or two shots) and you've missed it three times, you probably lack the aforementioned and proverbial 'proper focus and presence of mind.
Consider also, the deer drive. Guys line up and push through a given area. A whitetail moving left to right, combined with 5 shots, arguably places the last 2 rounds in the vicinity of other hunters.
The sunset/sunrise question is valid when you consider how it stands now. But, if anything, I'd like to see the gun season changed to sunrise to sunset.
The pistol ammo question might also be valid as is the argument as to the diversity of terrain in Ohio.
Wow! Some these comments and reactions boggle the mind. A few of you seem to think these proposals are new or unreasonable.
Indiana hunts with pistol caliber rifles.
Hours= 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset
Michigan uses center fire rifles in the northern 2/3rds of the state.
Hours= 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset by default. The state is further divided into 4 time zones by letter. A is the above. B is +6 mins. C is +12 mins. D is +18 mins. For example in time zone D you can hunt 48 mins after sunset with a high powered rifle.
Kentucky uses center fire rifles statewide.
Hours= 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset
The same for PA and WV. PA is similar to MI where you can add +20 to the 1/2 hour after sunset in the western most part of the state. That's 50 mins after sunset.
Ohio is the only state amongst it's bordering states that does not hunt a half hour after sunset and include some provision for rifles.
I guess if Ohio doesn't want the same privileges and freedoms as our neighbors then we won't have them. I on the other hand intend to keep applying for them anyway.
And they are shooting arrows at 300 fps, not bullets at 3100 fps. It isn't just about shooting the deer, it's about what is behind your intended target. In low light conditions, you can't tell what's behind your target and that is a primary factor in gun safety.
Archery safety.... is taken care of because of the low relative speeds and inability of the arrow to travel very far.
After reading through this, I'm not a fan of Buckeye Firearms. If everyone associated to that group is like you, then I'm glad I'm not a part of it.
You forgot coyote, raccoon and hog hunters.
Quote:
Buckeye Firearms Association is the most active grassroots group in Ohio working to defend and advance Ohioans' rights to keep and bear arms. Because we deal with firearm rights, laws, and issues on a daily basis, we should be your PRIMARY SOURCE for authoritative information for any firearm related subject in Ohio.
If the text in an internet forum discussing a single subject from an individual member of an organization is what you define your opinion of an entire organization on...Then you probably were not going to be an asset to that organization anyway. We do have 30,000+ other members you might take a liking to in the event you change your mind. Your second amendment right is more important than your very narrow screening criteria isn't it?
Unfortunatly, you forgot those hunters use the aid of a LIGHT at "low light hours" And last time I checked, shooting a deer with the aid of a light in ANY state was illegal. Your comparison means nothing
If the text in an internet forum discussing a single subject from an individual member of an organization is what you define your opinion of an entire organization on...Then you probably were not going to be an asset to that organization anyway. We do have 30,000+ other members you might take a liking to in the event you change your mind. Your second amendment right is more important than your very narrow screening criteria isn't it?
And this is a perfect example of how one bad apple ruins the bunch. With the way you portray your organization of being all "high and mighty," I would not want to be associated with it.
"We should be your PRIMARY SOURCE for authoritative information for any firearm related subject in Ohio."
I for one will get my information elsewhere.....just saying....
Emphasis and inflection is difficult to convey with text. Don't confuse knowledge and experience with arrogance. I want people to make well informed decisions based on facts. There are a lot more people out there that have no clue what equipment is being used in the field than I could have imagined.
I glad to see that was explained in a non-arrogant fashion
Ohio is the only state amongst it's bordering states that does not hunt a half hour after sunset during deer gun season and include some provision for rifles.
Ohio is the only state amongst it's neighboring states that has a 3 shot rule during deer gun season.
Ohio is the only state amongst it's bordering states that does not hunt a half hour after sunset during deer gun season and include some provision for rifles.
Ohio is the only state amongst it's neighboring states that has a 3 shot rule during deer gun season.
I really like your "one more time" jabs, as if you are speaking to idiots. Maybe it is the messenger
Changing or adopting rules just because everyone else does it is not a strong argument in my opinion. Changes either make sense or they don't, I don't really care what everyone else is doing.
Hunting after sunset would not, in my opinion, be an issue either way.
I am not in favor of changing the 3 shoot rule. I see no positive reason or justification from a change
Indiana hunts with pistol caliber rifles.
Hours= 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset
Michigan uses center fire rifles in the northern 2/3rds of the state.
Hours= 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset by default. The state is further divided into 4 time zones by letter. A is the above. B is +6 mins. C is +12 mins. D is +18 mins. For example in time zone D you can hunt 48 mins after sunset with a high powered rifle.
Kentucky uses center fire rifles statewide.
Hours= 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset
The same for PA and WV. PA is similar to MI where you can add +20 to the 1/2 hour after sunset in the western most part of the state. That's 50 mins after sunset.
Ohio is the only state amongst it's bordering states that does not hunt a half hour after sunset and include some provision for rifles.
Pure conjecture on my part but I do wonder if the current no-rifle, sunset rules are related to the number of hunters per acre of hunting land as compared to say Kentucky and northern Michigan. In other words do we have these rules because of the population densities? I think that may factor into ODNR's reasoning. Obviously the areas of northern Michigan and Kentucky are much less densly populated than most areas in Ohio. I really have no clue about Indiana's available hunting and number of hunters as compared to Ohio.
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Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not reflect those of anyone else
Pure conjecture on my part but I do wonder if the current no-rifle, sunset rules are related to the number of hunters per acre of hunting land as compared to say Kentucky and northern Michigan. In other words do we have these rules because of the population densities? I think that may factor into ODNR's reasoning. Obviously the areas of northern Michigan and Kentucky are much less densly populated than most areas in Ohio. I really have no clue about Indiana's available hunting and number of hunters as compared to Ohio.
Population density used to play a large role in the decision to not use rifles. In the most recent years the weaponry we are using in the field right now has advanced beyond the technological limitations of pistol caliber rifles.
Pistol cartridges have pretty much reached their apex in performance. In fact many of the pistol cartridges reached that apex decades ago.
On the other hand we're just scratching the surface of modern shotgun sabot development and what a modern inline muzzle loader can do.
If Hornady can crank out a shotgun sabot in 2 3/4 inch that does 2000 FPS then it stands to reason they can go faster in a 3 inch shell. They could develop all metal shells, experiment further with the sabot sleeve designs, raise and lower bullet weights etc etc. There is still room to play there.
The modern inline muzzle loader has even fewer limitations. They don't use little brass containers with capacity limits. Metallurgy advancements has allowed them to use a hefty amount of magnum rifle powder or 200 grains of pyrodex. The guns themselves can be redesigned from the ground up. Tinkering with various ignition sources, chamber designs, powder compositions and the list goes on and on. All anyone has to do is look at metal storm technology to see where a muzzle loader can go.
The real question is how far does technology have to advance in our present weapons we use for hunting before we are allowed to use great grand pappy's pistol caliber rifle.
If the current trends remain on track we could be looking at 2400-2600FPS from our shotguns and as much as 3600FPS from our muzzle loaders in just a couple of years. I wouldn't be surprised if the prototypes are out there in the R&D phase right now.
The 3 shot rule is for safety...If you cant hit a deer in 3 shots, what good is having a fourth or fifth? If it takes that many rounds to bring down a deer, you need more range time.
The 3 shot rule is for safety...If you cant hit a deer in 3 shots, what good is having a fourth or fifth? If it takes that many rounds to bring down a deer, you need more range time.
I wonder why none of our neighboring states have this safety feature?
Ohio hunters are being held to a higher standard?
Ohio hunters are less competent and can't be trusted with a higher capacity?
Maybe it is to satisfy gun grabbing bureaucrats that want to limit the capacity of all firearms since they have no legitimate sporting purpose?
Quote:
A deer hunter can do the following
Take more than one deer per day as a long as each deer has been tagged with a temporary tag before hunting for the next deer.
Maybe a hunter wants to slap a 10 round mag into their Saiga 12 in zone C and shoot 3 deer out of that single mag with rounds to spare. Loading the gun 1 time before entering the field and having the capacity to take your bag limit without reloading or carting along extra ammo sounds like great idea to me.
Everyone in this thread has determined 3 shots per deer is enough. Well if everyone is using 3 shots or less on deer 1 then what difference does it make if you are loaded for deer 2 through 6?
I guess Ohio hunters are less competent. We had that convenience just a few years ago. All it took is one incompetent hunter to cause a fatality and it ruined it for the rest of us.
Since a hunters proficiency and ethics can be adjusted by the # of rounds he carries in his gun then we can work on other things. Those horrible black rifles and Russian assault weapons don't need high capacity either since there is no legitimate sporting purpose for them. We probably shouldn't allow people to carry high capacity handguns concealed in public either. Let's limit everything to ten rounds or less. The snowball just keeps rolling right on down the domino highway with the Brady Campaign kicking it every step of the way.
Maybe a hunter wants to slap a 10 round mag into their Saiga 12 in zone C and shoot 3 deer out of that single mag with rounds to spare. Loading the gun 1 time before entering the field and having the capacity to take your bag limit without reloading or carting along extra ammo sounds like great idea to me.
That is exactly what I don't what anyone, including you, heck especially you, doing.
What is your held position in the BFA? You are in fact very counter productive to the message you hope to convey. You try very hard to shove your beliefs and agenda down everyone's throat and then demean them when they don't fully swallow.
If you are representative of the BFA and the average Ohio hunter, then yes, Ohio hunters are less competent, with you somewhere near the top of the list in my opinion.
I still see no benefit to a change in the 3 shot rule, but was, in the beginning of this thread, somewhat neutral in my concern either way. I am beginning to be swayed to be an adamant, active, supporter of no change only because of your arrogant persistence in favor of the change
That is exactly what I don't what anyone, including you, heck especially you, doing.
What is your held position in the BFA? You are in fact very counter productive to the message you hope to convey. You try very hard to shove your beliefs and agenda down everyone's throat and then demean them when they don't fully swallow.
If you are representative of the BFA and the average Ohio hunter, then yes, Ohio hunters are less competent, with you somewhere near the top of the list in my opinion.
I still see no benefit to a change in the 3 shot rule, but was, in the beginning of this thread, somewhat neutral in my concern either way. I am beginning to be swayed to be an adamant, active, supporter of no change only because of your arrogant persistence in favor of the change
All I have done is offer opposing view points. This thread has been sniped, jabbed and border line trolled yet I just keep offering productive points and counter points to the conversation. You see that as shoving my agenda? I thought I was offering a different perspective. No one has been demeaned.
So how does one go about disagreeing here and still make their point while challenging opposing view points? How does one go about injecting information that is new or foreign to at least some of the people involved in the conversation? How does one go about correcting misconceptions?
If I ask you personally to change your mind about a specific thing or consider another perspective then proceed to explain it...Either you are receptive to that or you are not. If you are not? It's only natural to engage you until you are or until both of us share enough of each others perspective to conclude that we must agree to disagree mutually.
When I see a statement like the 3 shot rule is for safety...I have to challenge that. When I am in the middle of a hollow on my private property that is so clearly marked no trespassing that a seeing eye dog would avoid it...Who is that rule making safer? If I use 1 round per deer what difference does it make if I have 6 rounds in my gun or 3 in my gun and 3 in my pocket?
I have to ask what the consequences of this thinking can be? Instead of punishing the hunters that are unethical, immoral or irresponsible...We have attacked an inanimate object such as a magazine in order to blanket control everyone's safety, behavior and ethics.
History is clear where this goes. All magazines used for anything fall under attack. Certain cosmetic features fall under attack. Semi auto falls under attack. The snow ball rolls.
If I can't be trusted to carry 15 rounds in my hunting implement on my own desolate land while hunting then how can I be trusted to carry 15 rounds in my concealed handgun and walk among the population? Why does anybody need 30 rounds, 20 rounds, 15 rounds 10 rounds...Hey they only use 3 for hunting.
Last edited by buckeye dan; 02-20-2012 at 12:17 AM.
Buckeye dan, not everyone has a hollow on private property to hunt. The 3 shell rule applies to ALL Ohio land and it IS for safety. If the odnr started having separate regs for private and public lands That were possible (which they do have some) the regs would be even more confusing. You can Personally ask me to change my mind all you like, you actually might turn blue in the face, but it still won't convince me. Oh and your arguement about the concealed handgun, 2 totally different things, One is hunting and one is defense.
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Buckeye dan, not everyone has a hollow on private property to hunt. The 3 shell rule applies to ALL Ohio land and it IS for safety. If the odnr started having separate regs for private and public lands That were possible (which they do have some) the regs would be even more confusing. You can Personally ask me to change my mind all you like, you actually might turn blue in the face, but it still won't convince me. Oh and your arguement about the concealed handgun, 2 totally different things, One is hunting and one is defense.
You say they are 2 different things. I agree that they are. Now who is going to convince the Brady Bunch to stop using it as an attack on high capacity magazines?
Quote:
Large capacity ammunition magazines are designed to enable shooting mass numbers of people quickly and
efficiently without reloading. They have been used in numerous mass shootings, including in Tucson,
Virginia Tech, Fort Hood, and Columbine, but they are not useful for hunting or self-defense.
this thread has run its course, good bye dan, maybe someday we'll be as gun smart as the mighty buckeye firearms and YOU!!.
now youre trying to use the BRADYCAMPAIN as a source??? whats wrong with you?? this DAMN thread needs locked......................... BRADYCAMPAIN, really??
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, but it still won't convince me. Oh and your arguement about the concealed handgun, 2 totally different things, One is hunting and one is defense.
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