I hear ya Jim. Everything depends on everything! Lets just say you and Kev are both right and wrong at some point because if you stop the boat, the lure will come to the surface. And if you go like hell, it will also come to the surface. So both little or no speed and a lot of speed have the same effect, the balance lies in the middle and boxes get full by those who understand where their own lures run regardless and I know both of you get that part done just fine!
I have had this conversation with a few people. They say, speed up the boat so the crank dives deeper. I disagree every time. I ask them why they think that? Twice the answer was that Stedke says so. My response is I respectfully disagree. The cast it out and reel it in slow and than fast is not a good test. Of course it will dive faster when retrieved fast. But it will reach it's maximum dive and stop going deeper. As will the slower retrieve, just will take longer.
The line bows when the crank dives. Most of the bow comes in the last third of the line out. When you go slow the the remaining two thirds rise quicker towards the surface (less velocity, less drag). Speed up and it tends to pull some of the bow out of the line, puts the lines entry point closer to the boat(more velocity, more drag). In a trolling situation there may be a slight difference in depth, but not enough to concern me.
On a different note, when pulling cranks with super long leads. There comes a point where the maximum dive is accomplished. Anything more will cause the lure to rise. Again, velocity and drag overpower the diving capability, and the lure rises. So, when you put that reef out 250', and you think your getting down to 30' or more...... you are probably closer to 20' down.
Just my thoughts, don't believe any of it!
"The cast it out and reel it in slow and than fast is not a good test. Of course it will dive faster when retrieved fast. But it will reach it's maximum dive and stop going deeper. As will the slower retrieve, just will take longer."
I respectfully disagree. A FLOATING lure if retrieved at a slow pace will not go as deep as a lure reeled much faster. The slow retrieved lure will reach its potential depth and stay there- it will not continue to go deeper UNLESS the RETRIEVE SPEED is increased. Buoyancy in the lure keeps it up higher if retrieved slower. Faster retrieves cancel out buoyancy and the lip is engaged more forcing the lure to go deeper. Yes, it will reach its limit on depth at some point- but I'm not arguing that.
Take a ordinary floating rapala and cast it above a bass on a bed... what does everybody do? They jerk it hard or reel if fast to get it to go down to get the attention of the bass. In this case the lure is forced into action harder & deeper quicker.... Pulling a floating rapala very slow above the bass may get it down 6inches.... (Its all relative to the speed/force in which its pulled)
Trolling speed differences between 1mph and 5mph makes a huge difference in depth in muskie trolling- I've experimented over structure... over and over and over until snag!. Line diameter has a huge effect on lure depth as everyone has said.
As for trolling RR's I don't have as much experience but I don't see them reacting differently to speed changes in trolling.
I'm totally with Stedke on this.
This all belongs up in my mid winter seminar thread. It's by far the best discussion so far this season.
And I would never make a blanket statement that the faster you go, the deeper the lure goes. But if the difference is from around 1 mph to around 2 mph, than yes it wll be deeper going faster.
Reefs have to be perfectly tuned to tolerate speeds over 3 mph, and at 4 mph.... forget it.... it's rolled over and acting as a sea gull attractant back there.
We could have the very same discussion about Dipsys ....that is at what speed do the Dipsys start to loose significant depth.
In all cases there are upward acting forces and the downward acting forces, and which ever is greater for whatever reason, wins.
Good discussion so far .... let's keep it that way.
Yeah, Freebyrd, you asked a simple question and the post was somewhat hijacked. I don't have the early season experience you do, but my best leads on RR 800s in April have been 25-35 back like I think Hal said above. In fact, years ago, Hal was the one that got me started fishing what I thought was so shallow from his comment on a post on WC. Thanks, Hal !!!!
Not last yr a total mud hole got blanked, but the two previous. We did catch many eyes slow trolling hj 10s or 12s and (smallies mostly on shallow gold rogues) in march and april at dusk/ night near the castle and Sherrod park. 8' - 20' fow planer boards 40-110 leads.
There's some good stuff here - interesting discussion. Thanks for all the replies. Most of the extra stuff about speeds/depth is stuff I had in mind anyways. Looking forward to getting some lures wet in a few weeks!
__________________
Looking for a Lake Erie Boat??? I can help - see our inventory of Serious Fishing Boats at www.southshoremarine.com
Baddfish is on the money. How deep does a floating diver dive at rest...of course, it doesn't dive at all. At .2mph it will dive very little and so on as speed increases. Thats why they call them "dive curves". Floating divers dive deeper as speed increases until the force of water resistence (drag) on the line begins to effect the lures ability to dive. The more line out the greater its effect on the lure (thats why the dive chart is a "curve" and not a "straight" line). Suspending lures like DHJs are likely to be less effected by speed than floaters such as RR800s. What does this mean??? Find the speed and leads the fish want and...bingo...catch fish.
Maybe I should clarify. I am a lake Erie troller. I could care less how far my lure dives at .2 miles an hour. I have never gotten one of my boats to troll slower than 1.1. I will keep trying though. Speeds range for me from the low ones to the low two's. Yes, there is a difference in depth achieved between the two speeds. But, in my opinion it is not worth worrying about. The most important thing to me is location, fish where there are fish. And second is speed, dial in the right speed and your day will be successful. Sometimes I can get way to analytical. I find it much easier to go with the "keep it simple stupid" method.
Speed is a relative term. Anybody else use a fishhawk? I use this tool more than any other. We spoke of current ealier. The fish hawk uses a tow-fish style probe that is lowered on a downrigger that gives you lure speed and lure temp. In the western basin I have seen 3 mph difference between lure and surface speed thanks to current. So this means that everyone on here has the chance to be right. At 1mph surface or GPS speed, the lure could very easily float up or not dive depending on the direction that you are traveling (into or with the current) Think like a river going upsream vs. downstream. This is why you generally catch fish going one way but when you turn to go back you can't catch anything. Turn around again and the catching resumes. Any of the ice fisermen on this thread will verify about current in lake erie around the islands.
Great point j-rod. We have seperate ice tackle boxes for crane creek fishing, and island fishing.... Ice fishing the islands is probably the best way to prove to someone that there are significant currents around and through the islands.... and that's what the lake is covered from the winds.
Couple ??s for the people that have been out trolling
Linear Mode
